From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 01 18:01:41 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EhxQq-0004MF-TL; Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:01:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EhxQo-0004M2-Oo for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:01:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA28693 for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2005 18:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvmbxw02.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.quest.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EhxlL-000276-3M for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:22:52 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw02.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:01:15 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] The special status of i-default in lookup Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:00:47 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] The special status of i-default in lookup Thread-Index: AcXws9TDKsh2A7IlS5yeF8efO147DgGE8Qkg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "John.Cowan" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2005 23:01:15.0238 (UTC) FILETIME=[2198C060:01C5F6CB] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1009439812==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1009439812== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSd2ZSBkb25lIG15IGJlc3QgdG8gZWRpdCBpbiBib3RoIChNYXJ0aW4ncyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mKSBK b2huJ3Mgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiBiZWxvdyBhbmQgKE1hcnRpbidzIHZlcnNpb24gb2YpIEhhcmFsZCdz IHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gcmVnYXJkaW5nIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uLiBJIGFkZGVkIEhhcmFsZCdzIHRl eHQgdG8gU2VjdGlvbiAzLjEgIkNob29zaW5nIFR5cGVzIG9mIE1hdGNoaW5nIi4NCg0KVGhlIG1v ZGlmaWVkIHZlcnNpb24gaXMgbm93IGhvc3RlZCBhcyAiRWRpdG9yJ3MgQ29weSIgb24gaW50ZXIt bG9jYWxlLmNvbS4gU2VlOg0KDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmludGVyLWxvY2FsZS5jb20vSUQvZHJhZnQt aWV0Zi1sdHJ1LW1hdGNoaW5nLTA4LnR4dCANCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaW50ZXItbG9jYWxlLmNvbS9J RC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtbWF0Y2hpbmctMDguaHRtbA0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pbnRlci1sb2Nh bGUuY29tL0lEL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtbHRydS1tYXRjaGluZy0wOC54bWwNCg0KSSBtYWRlIGEgZmV3 IG90aGVyIGVkaXRzIGFzIHdlbGwsIG1vc3RseSBjbGVhbnVwIG9mIHRoZSBFbmdsaXNoIGFuZCBi dWdmaXguIEFueSBjb21tZW50cyBiZWZvcmUgSSBzdWJtaXQgdGhpcz8NCg0KVGhlIGRpZmYsIGJ5 IHRoZSB3YXksIGNhbiBiZSB2aWV3ZWQgdXNpbmcgdGhpcyBVUkk6DQoNCmh0dHA6Ly90aW55dXJs LmNvbS84M2NnZQ0KDQoob3IsIGlmIHlvdSBwcmVmZXIsIHRoZSBmdWxsIFVSSSBmb2xsb3dzKQ0K DQpodHRwOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvdG9vbHMvcmZjZGlmZi9yZmNkaWZmLnB5aHQ/dXJsMT1o dHRwOi8vd3d3LmludGVyLWxvY2FsZS5jb20vSUQvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LW1hdGNoaW5nLTA3 LnR4dCZ1cmwyPWh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaW50ZXItbG9jYWxlLmNvbS9JRC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUt bWF0Y2hpbmctMDgudHh0DQoNCkFkZGlzb24NCg0KQWRkaXNvbiBQLiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KR2xvYmFs aXphdGlvbiBBcmNoaXRlY3QsIFF1ZXN0IFNvZnR3YXJlDQoNCkludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9u IGlzIG5vdCBhIGZlYXR1cmUuDQpJdCBpcyBhbiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUuIA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3Jp Z2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRv Omx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mDQo+IE1hcnRpbiBEdWVyc3QNCj4g U2VudDogMjAwNeW5tDEx5pyIMjPml6UgMTk6MjANCj4gVG86IEpvaG4uQ293YW47IGx0cnVAaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1XSBUaGUgc3BlY2lhbCBzdGF0dXMgb2YgaS1kZWZh dWx0IGluIGxvb2t1cA0KPiANCj4gSGVsbG8gSm9obiwNCj4gDQoNCltBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBz XSBkZWxldGVkIGV4dHJhbmVvdXMgdGV4dA0KPiANCj4gSSBwcm9wb3NlIHRvIGNoYW5nZSBpdCB0 byB0aGlzOg0KPiAgPiBXaGVuIHBlcmZvcm1pbmcgbG9va3VwIHVzaW5nIGEgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgcHJp b3JpdHkgbGlzdCwgdGhlIHByb2dyZXNzaXZlDQo+ICA+IHNlYXJjaCBNVVNUIHByb2NlZWQgdG8g Y29uc2lkZXIgZWFjaCBsYW5ndWFnZSByYW5nZSBiZWZvcmUgZmluZGluZw0KPiAgPiB0aGUgZGVm YXVsdCBjb250ZW50IG9yIGVtcHR5IHRhZy4gVGhlIGRlZmF1bHQgY29udGVudCBtaWdodCBiZSBj b250ZW50DQo+ICA+IHdpdGggbm8gbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnIChvciB3aXRoIGFuIGVtcHR5IHZhbHVl LCBhcyB3aXRoIHhtbDpsYW5nIGluIHRoZQ0KPiAgPiBYTUwgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiksIG9yIGl0 IG1pZ2h0IGJlIGEgcGFydGljdWxhciBsYW5ndWFnZSBkZXNpZ25hdGVkDQo+ICA+IGZvciB0aGF0 IGJpdCBvZiBjb250ZW50LCBvciBpdCBtaWdodCBiZSBsYWJlbGVkIGFzIGktZGVmYXVsdCBbUkZD IDIyNzddLg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFJlZ2FyZHMsICAgIE1hcnRpbi4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcg bGlzdA0KPiBMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCg== --===============1009439812== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1009439812==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 02 06:26:31 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ei93f-0005yH-OH; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 06:26:31 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ei93d-0005sB-A1 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 06:26:29 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA09790 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 06:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ei9OG-0002zO-UG for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 06:47:49 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB2BPwu29812; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:25:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 14e6_68ec4032_6326_11da_95a8_00304811fd80; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 20:25:57 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB2BNgFQ032397; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:25:22 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051201100714.07c51c40@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 18:35:08 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" , "Scott Hollenbeck" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Schedule of matching draft, charter update X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear LTRU WG, hello Scott, Checking our charter at http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html, I found that it's slightly out of date. We have four milestones, three of them completed. The fourth reads: Oct 05 Submit matching algorithms draft for IETF Last Call Given that we are already in December, this is unrealistic. I'm planning to ask our AD for an extension. I'd like your input on whether I should propose Dec 05 or Jan 06. We may be able to do things in Dec 05, but it will be very tight. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 02 06:26:32 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ei93g-0005zA-39; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 06:26:32 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ei93d-0005r8-Ge for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 06:26:29 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA09791 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 06:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ei9OG-0002zN-Uk for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 06:47:49 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB2BPlu29778; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:25:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 14e6_6278e6d8_6326_11da_95a8_00304811fd80; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 20:25:46 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB2BNgFO032397; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:25:00 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051202182015.058e12a0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 18:23:31 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , "John.Cowan" , From: Martin Duerst Subject: Drafty draft -08.txt (was: RE: [Ltru] The special status of i-default in lookup) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 08:00 05/12/02, Addison Phillips wrote: >I've done my best to edit in both (Martin's version of) John's suggestion >below and (Martin's version of) Harald's suggestion regarding >implementation. I added Harald's text to Section 3.1 "Choosing Types of >Matching". > >The modified version is now hosted as "Editor's Copy" on inter-locale.com. See: > >http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt >http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.html >http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.xml > >I made a few other edits as well, mostly cleanup of the English and bugfix. >Any comments before I submit this? [co-chair hat (mostly) off] I have been reading 07.txt in detail, and am about half through. I plan to finish and write things up over the weekend. [co-chair hat on] I very much encourage anybody else to also send comments on this draft. I'd propose that you wait another few days for another submission. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 02 06:42:23 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ei9J1-0006y7-Kd; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 06:42:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ei9J0-0006wo-GQ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 06:42:22 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA10952 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 06:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.29]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ei9dd-0003Tm-0N for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 07:03:42 -0500 Received: (qmail 5958 messnum 4224576 invoked from network[194.125.174.27/ts09-027.dublin.indigo.ie]); 2 Dec 2005 11:41:54 -0000 Received: from ts09-027.dublin.indigo.ie (HELO egt.ie) (194.125.174.27) by mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 5958) with SMTP; 2 Dec 2005 11:41:54 -0000 Message-ID: <439032FA.A0488016@egt.ie> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 11:41:46 +0000 From: Marion Gunn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Schedule of matching draft, charter update References: <6.0.0.20.2.20051201100714.07c51c40@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id GAA10952 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hardly practical to choose the 12th day of Christmas, Martin!:-) Perhaps one week later? mg Scr=EDobh Martin Duerst: > ... > Given that we are already in December, this is unrealistic. > I'm planning to ask our AD for an extension. I'd like your > input on whether I should propose Dec 05 or Jan 06. We may > be able to do things in Dec 05, but it will be very tight. >=20 > Regards, Martin --=20 Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an=20 Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 02 09:28:42 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EiBty-00052O-FX; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 09:28:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EiBtx-00051a-1m for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 09:28:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29128 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EiCEc-0000uB-PR for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 09:50:05 -0500 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jB2ESWPN005861; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:28:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:28:30 -0500 From: "John.Cowan" To: Marion Gunn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Schedule of matching draft, charter update Message-ID: <20051202142830.GE8584@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20051201100714.07c51c40@localhost> <439032FA.A0488016@egt.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <439032FA.A0488016@egt.ie> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Marion Gunn scripsit: > Hardly practical to choose the 12th day of Christmas, Martin!:-) Perhaps > one week later? I think Martin means "January 2006" rather than "6 January 2006". -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan This great college [Trinity], of this ancient university [Cambridge], has seen some strange sights. It has seen Wordsworth drunk and Porson sober. And here am I, a better poet than Porson, and a better scholar than Wordsworth, somewhere betwixt and between. --A.E. Housman _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 02 10:48:02 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EiD8k-00067w-Nw; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:48:02 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EiD8h-00064Y-Hn for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:48:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA09254 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 10:47:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvmbxw02.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.quest.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EiDTM-0003nB-BA for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 11:09:21 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw02.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 2 Dec 2005 07:47:41 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Drafty draft -08.txt (was: RE: [Ltru] The special status of i-default in lookup) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 07:47:40 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Drafty draft -08.txt (was: RE: [Ltru] The special status of i-default in lookup) Thread-Index: AcX3MzQq4E1V9leASeSFQhmau7lrSAAJEvMA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "John.Cowan" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Dec 2005 15:47:41.0743 (UTC) FILETIME=[BAC22BF0:01C5F757] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0163627436==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0163627436== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiANCj4gSSB2ZXJ5IG11Y2ggZW5jb3VyYWdlIGFueWJvZHkgZWxzZSB0byBhbHNvIHNlbmQgY29t bWVudHMgb24NCj4gdGhpcyBkcmFmdC4gSSdkIHByb3Bvc2UgdGhhdCB5b3Ugd2FpdCBhbm90aGVy IGZldyBkYXlzIGZvcg0KPiBhbm90aGVyIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24uDQoNCk5vIHByb2JsZW0uDQoNCkFk ZGlzb24NCg0KQWRkaXNvbiBQLiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KR2xvYmFsaXphdGlvbiBBcmNoaXRlY3QsIFF1 ZXN0IFNvZnR3YXJlDQoNCkludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBhIGZlYXR1cmUuDQpJ dCBpcyBhbiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUuIA0KDQo+IA0KPiBSZWdhcmRzLCAgIE1hcnRpbi4NCg0K --===============0163627436== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0163627436==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 02 12:00:36 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EiEGy-0003yW-O0; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 12:00:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EiEGw-0003yQ-DU for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 12:00:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16985 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 11:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EiEbe-0006DD-17 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 12:21:59 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:00:18 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Schedule of matching draft, charter update Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:00:17 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Schedule of matching draft, charter update Thread-Index: AcX3M0eoXhJ3Kl+5T/qhNQ18CWPCnAALmHAg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "LTRU Working Group" , "Scott Hollenbeck" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Dec 2005 17:00:18.0374 (UTC) FILETIME=[DF834E60:01C5F761] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0765671558==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 02 21:14:39 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EiMv9-0001bk-3E; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:14:39 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EiMv7-0001bZ-67 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:14:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA00736 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:13:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from e1.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.141]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EiNFt-0005Ty-Pe for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:36:07 -0500 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e1.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB32EK1U019571 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:14:20 -0500 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (d01av03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.217]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.8) with ESMTP id jB32EKRU114208 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:14:20 -0500 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jB32EKFE006380 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:14:20 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sig-9-48-110-2.mts.ibm.com [9.48.110.2]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB32EITc006359; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:14:19 -0500 Message-ID: <4390FF78.5080204@icu-project.org> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 18:14:16 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Schedule of matching draft, charter update References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e1.ny.us.ibm.com id jB32EK1U019571 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Yes, we really have to get this done, so we should have an absolute=20 requirement of early enough in January that we make any other dates we ne= ed. Mark Addison Phillips wrote: >Given that a WG last call starting tomorrow (shall we call that unlikely= ?) will abut the end of year holidays, I think it prudent to ask for Janu= ary. > >That said, I'd like it to be *early* in January, if at all possible..... > >Addison > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture.=20 > > =20 > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >>Martin Duerst >>Sent: 2005=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=882=E6=97=A5 1:35 >>To: LTRU Working Group; Scott Hollenbeck >>Subject: [Ltru] Schedule of matching draft, charter update >> >>Dear LTRU WG, hello Scott, >> >>Checking our charter at >>http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html, >>I found that it's slightly out of date. >> >>We have four milestones, three of them completed. >>The fourth reads: >> >>Oct 05 Submit matching algorithms draft for IETF Last Call >> >>Given that we are already in December, this is unrealistic. >>I'm planning to ask our AD for an extension. I'd like your >>input on whether I should propose Dec 05 or Jan 06. We may >>be able to do things in Dec 05, but it will be very tight. >> >>Regards, Martin. >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Ltru mailing list >>Ltru@ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> =20 >> >>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Ltru mailing list >>Ltru@ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 02 21:39:45 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EiNJR-0003HB-6o; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:39:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EiNJP-0003Gy-5I for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:39:43 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA02956 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from e6.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EiNeD-00069M-13 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:01:13 -0500 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e6.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB32dRDh031264 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:39:27 -0500 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.8) with ESMTP id jB32dRRU120900 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:39:27 -0500 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jB32dRcp012215 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:39:27 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sig-9-48-110-2.mts.ibm.com [9.48.110.2]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB32dP8Z012168; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:39:26 -0500 Message-ID: <4391055B.1080207@icu-project.org> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 18:39:23 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] The special status of i-default in lookup References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e6.ny.us.ibm.com id jB32dRDh031264 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 963faf56c3a5b6715f0b71b66181e01a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org more granular matching scheme =3D> more fine-grained matching scheme =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D the set of language ranges in a language priority list =3D> the list of language ranges in a language priority list [list, since it is ordered] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D a case insensitive manner =3D> a case-insensitive manner [missing hyphens in compound adjectives] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Implementations might also wish to use semantic information external =3D> Implementations MAY use semantic information external =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D private-use subtags MAY be specified in the language range and MUST NOT be ignored when matching. =3D> Private-use subtags MAY be specified in the language range and MUST NOT be ignored when matching. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Implementations or protocols sometimes might wish to use more sophisticated weights =3D> Implementations or protocols MAY use more sophisticated weights =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The language range "*" matches any language tag. In the lookup scheme, this language range does not convey enough information to determine which content is most appropriate. If this language range is the only one in the language priority list, it matches the default content. If this language range is followed by other language ranges, it should be skipped. =3D> The language range wildcard "*" matches any language tag. Since only one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcard must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might produce widely varying results). Where more than one piece of content would be returned, then the implementation MUST specify the method used to determine the result. For example, it could specify that if "*" is the only range in the language priority list, it matches the default content, while if "*" is followed by other language ranges, it is skipped. [2nd sentence is replaced by better language (copied from a few paragraphs below). Method transformed to example, since it should not be normative] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Wildcard values in an extended language range are supposed to match any value that occurs in that position in a language tag. Since only one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcards must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might produce widely varying results). Thus, for each range in the language priority list, the following rules must be applied to produce a basic language range for use in the fallback mechanism ...* Figure 10: Extended Language Range Fallback Example * =3D> Wildcard values in an extended language range are supposed to match any value that occurs in that position in a language tag. Since only one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcards must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might produce widely varying results). Where more than one piece of content would be returned, then the implementation MUST specify the method used to determine the result. [The method supplied in the document doesn't match reasonable user expections, as stated earlier. Since we can't agree, leave it up to the implemention.] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Addison Phillips wrote: >I've done my best to edit in both (Martin's version of) John's suggestio= n below and (Martin's version of) Harald's suggestion regarding implement= ation. I added Harald's text to Section 3.1 "Choosing Types of Matching". > >The modified version is now hosted as "Editor's Copy" on inter-locale.co= m. See: > >http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt=20 >http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.html >http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.xml > >I made a few other edits as well, mostly cleanup of the English and bugf= ix. Any comments before I submit this? > >The diff, by the way, can be viewed using this URI: > >http://tinyurl.com/83cge > >(or, if you prefer, the full URI follows) > >http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttp://www.inter= -locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07.txt&url2=3Dhttp://www.inter-lo= cale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt > >Addison > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture.=20 > > =20 > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >>Martin Duerst >>Sent: 2005=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 19:20 >>To: John.Cowan; ltru@ietf.org >>Subject: Re: [Ltru] The special status of i-default in lookup >> >>Hello John, >> >> =20 >> > >[Addison Phillips] deleted extraneous text > =20 > >>I propose to change it to this: >> > When performing lookup using a language priority list, the progressi= ve >> > search MUST proceed to consider each language range before finding >> > the default content or empty tag. The default content might be conte= nt >> > with no language tag (or with an empty value, as with xml:lang in th= e >> > XML specification), or it might be a particular language designated >> > for that bit of content, or it might be labeled as i-default [RFC 22= 77]. >> >> >>Regards, Martin. >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Ltru mailing list >>Ltru@ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> =20 >> >>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Ltru mailing list >>Ltru@ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 05:24:15 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjDW3-0002l3-Jt; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:24:15 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjDW2-0002ky-Cb for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:24:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA27087 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 05:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjDrI-00031m-2s for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:46:13 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB5AO2d15849 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:24:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3669_418e7884_6579_11da_9cbd_00304811fd80; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:24:02 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB5ALcli013720 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:23:36 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051205180345.070abe50@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:13:16 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d2e37451f7f22841e3b6f40c67db0f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 1) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [chair hat off] These are my editorial comments on draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07. Some may be duplicates of things already fixed. General: Some of the examples appear as "Figures". But the numbers are not consecutive. None of the examples are really figures, and they are all completely integrated into the text, so I propose no not use any 'figure' stuff. (things might look slightly different in the HTML version, but it's the ASCII version that ultimately counts) Abstract: - should contain the words 'filtering' and 'lookup' Section 1, second para, 1st sentence: "Information ... need ..." need -> needs Section 1, End: Please given a short overview over the document. Section 2, first para, last sentence: "These": It's not clear what "These" refers to. Section 2.1: Lists of Language Ranges: - We are using the term "Language Priority List", so probably better to use it in title, too. - This section should come after 2.3, or possibly even after 2.4 (if after 2.3, then 2.4 might be renamed to "Choosing Language Ranges" - second para: A ... List" consists of ... a ... list: 'consists of' -> is - last para: 'include considerations': If we don't define any actual syntax, we should clearly say so: "This document does not define any syntax for a "Language Priority List"; defining such a syntax is the responsibility of the protocol/implementation/application." [see separate mail] Section 2.2: Basic Language Range - "A basic language range is identified by its 'language range' tag...": I think we should call tags tags, and ranges ranges. - Refers to RFC 2616 for 'language-tag'. We should say that this is equivalent (in whatever way it is, probably just well-formed) to a language-tag from RFC3066bis. - last para: 'as simply a "language range"' -> 'simply as "languge ranges"' (make numbers agree) Section 2.3: Extended Language Range - First line of ABNF looks as if it were part of text. Add some space before ABNF, and make sure at least comment alligns. - last paragraph: We have two MAYs here. These get combined with the MAYs in the various matching scheme sections. And then this gets combined with the implementation/protocol/application issue. It may be worth checking whether the various matching sections do not already cover, in one way or another, the MAYs in this section, and if they do so almost but not quite, whether we could not fix it. Section 2.4: Coosing a language range - first para: "for given user" -> "for a given user" - A lot of the advice in this section is dependent on which matching scheme is used. It should therefore be moved to section 4. - 3rd para: 'orthogonal': What does that mean in this context? - 3rd para: 'users SHOULD avoid using these subtags': True for filtering, wrong for lookup. Overall, we should be clearer and say that for filtering, use the shortest possible tags, or add shorter tags as an alternative to longer ones [the text from the HTTP spec about adding 'en' if you have 'en-GB' could be reused], but for lookup, use longest possible tags to make sure you get your preferred selection if it is available. - 4th para: Having a numbered list here doesn't make sense, it looks like just a continuation of the first three paragraphs. - 4th para: 'users SHOULD note': if there is anything relevant to interoperability that users should DO, then say so. But please try to avoid SHOULD for 'note'. - 4th para, 1.: "Implementations ... SHOULD ...": this belongs into the relevant matching scheme sections, not in the section about user advice. Same for the rest of the numbered list. - 4th para, 2., last sentence: "... if services ... would ..." => "... to services ... that ..." - 4th para, 3.: "the one of the": remove first 'the' Section 3, first para: "types of matching scheme" => "types of matching schemes" Section 3.1 Choosing a type of matching - second para: "one might use" => "one can use" - numbered list: I think it would be better to have four items here, making lookup the fourth, and change the introductory sentence to "This document describes three types of filtering and one type of lookup:" or "This document defines the following matching schemes:". - numbered list, 2.: 'implementations' [see separate mail] - numbered list, 3.: "using either basic or extended language ranges": I haven't found an option 'basic range only' in Scored Filtering. If there is, it wouldn't make sense to me, actually. So I propose we remove this phrase, or change it to "using extended langugage ranges". - first para after numbered list: "when each request MUST": From the viewpoint of our spec, this is just a precondition. So a MUST is inappropriate. Part two to follow tomorrow. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 05:24:17 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjDW5-0002lZ-RE; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:24:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjDW4-0002lU-Ju for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:24:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA27090 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 05:23:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjDrK-00031p-Cl for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:46:16 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB5AO1d15845 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:24:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 79c3_40d7fa82_6579_11da_924c_0030482533a1; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:24:01 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB5ALclg013720 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:23:36 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051205180843.070acd50@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:22:27 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [co-chair hat off] I have earlier raised an issue about the words 'application' and 'protocol'. I don't think I talked about 'implementation' then, but that word is also all over the place, without ever being clearly grounded. I propose that we add an explanation somewhere at the end of section 1. The following text is a first attempt, I'm sure it can be improved: The matching schemes defined in this document can be used by (Internet) protocols, or, in cases where there is no protocol, directly by applications. Depending on the matching scheme, there are various options left to the implementation. This means that the option is left to the protocol if the matching scheme is used by a protocol, or directly by the application in case there is no protocol. If there is a protocol, the protocol may select some options, and my leave others open to implementers of that protocol. Not sure the text above is very good, but I hope you at least get the idea I wanted to put out. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 05:24:25 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjDWD-0002mo-23; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:24:25 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjDWB-0002mj-Vs for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:24:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA27096 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 05:23:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjDrS-00032W-NC for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:46:23 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB5AO1d15841; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:24:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 36cd_409bba40_6579_11da_85a5_00304811fd80; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:24:00 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB5ALcle013720; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:23:14 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051205173834.0581fce0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:56:04 +0900 To: Mark Davis , Addison Phillips From: Martin Duerst Subject: Various comments from Mark (was: Re: [Ltru] The special status of i-default in lookup) In-Reply-To: <4391055B.1080207@icu-project.org> References: <4391055B.1080207@icu-project.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hello Mark, others, I have taken the liberty to change the subject. My personal comments, as a technical contributor, below. At 11:39 05/12/03, Mark Davis wrote: > more granular matching scheme > >=> > > more fine-grained matching scheme I wanted to complain about not knowing which way 'granular' goes several times. Thanks for proposing a good solution. >===== > > the set of language ranges in a language priority list > >=> > > the list of language ranges in a language priority list > [list, since it is ordered] great fix >===== > > a case insensitive manner > >=> > > a case-insensitive manner > [missing hyphens in compound adjectives] ok >===== > > Implementations might also wish to use semantic information external > >=> > > Implementations MAY use semantic information external I also didn't like 'might' (there are overall still too many conditonals in the text), but I'm not totally sure increasing the number of MAYs is a good thing. But it's probably okay here. >===== > > private-use subtags MAY be specified in the language range and MUST > NOT be ignored when matching. > >=> > > Private-use subtags MAY be specified in the language range and MUST > NOT be ignored when matching. ok >===== > > Implementations or protocols sometimes might wish to use more > sophisticated weights > >=> > > Implementations or protocols MAY use more sophisticated weights same as above for MAY >===== > > The language range "*" matches any language tag. In the lookup > scheme, this language range does not convey enough information to > determine which content is most appropriate. If this language range > is the only one in the language priority list, it matches the > default content. If this language range is followed by other > language ranges, it should be skipped. > >=> > > The language range wildcard "*" matches any language tag. I'm okay to use "language range wildcard", but then please make sure this is used consistently. > Since only > one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcard > must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might > produce widely varying results). please avoid conditionals: "(or the same request might produce widely varying results)" => "(otherwise the same request will produce widely varying results)" > Where more than one piece of > content would be returned, then the implementation MUST specify the > method used to determine the result. 'Where', 'would', and 'then' don't make a reasonable sentence for me. More general, the paragraph starts with "Since only one item can be returned", so then speaking about more than one piece is confusing. > For example, it could specify that if "*" is the only range in the > language priority list, it matches the default content, while if "*" > is followed by other language ranges, it is skipped. > [2nd sentence is replaced by better language (copied from a few > paragraphs below). Method transformed to example, since it should > not be normative] > >===== > > Wildcard values in an extended language range are supposed to match > any value that occurs in that position in a language tag. Since only > one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcards > must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might > produce widely varying results). Thus, for each range in the > language priority list, the following rules must be applied to > produce a basic language range for use in the fallback mechanism > > ...* > Figure 10: Extended Language Range Fallback Example * > >=> > > Wildcard values in an extended language range are supposed to 'are supposed to' doesn't sound very spec-like. > match > any value that occurs in that position in a language tag. Since only > one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcards > must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might > produce widely varying results). Where more than one piece of > content would be returned, then Again, the 'then' doesn't work for me. > the implementation MUST specify the > method used to determine the result. > [The method supplied in the document doesn't match reasonable user > expections, as stated earlier. Since we can't agree, leave it up to > the implemention.] Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 05:25:16 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjDX2-0002vb-Hc; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:25:16 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjDX1-0002vW-0z for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:25:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA27126 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 05:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjDsH-00033n-Sr for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:47:14 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB5AOnd15935; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:24:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3717_5d7c5700_6579_11da_94d0_00304811fd80; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:24:49 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB5ALclm013720; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:24:09 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051205191649.070344d0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:17:52 +0900 To: "John.Cowan" , Marion Gunn From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Schedule of matching draft, charter update In-Reply-To: <20051202142830.GE8584@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20051201100714.07c51c40@localhost> <439032FA.A0488016@egt.ie> <20051202142830.GE8584@NYCMJCOWA2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 23:28 05/12/02, John.Cowan wrote: >Marion Gunn scripsit: > >> Hardly practical to choose the 12th day of Christmas, Martin!:-) Perhaps >> one week later? > >I think Martin means "January 2006" rather than "6 January 2006". Yes indeed. Not really my idea, that's how IETF charters are written (I will suggest that this is changed because it has led to misunderstandings in the past). Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 06:54:51 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjEvj-0006ye-7r; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 06:54:51 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjEvh-0006xM-6f for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 06:54:49 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA05950 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 06:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from e4.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.144]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjFGw-0005sr-Tk for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 07:16:49 -0500 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e4.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB5BsYHl024746 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 06:54:34 -0500 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.8) with ESMTP id jB5BsYw6126496 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 06:54:34 -0500 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jB5BsYJ9006241 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 06:54:34 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sig-9-48-115-161.mts.ibm.com [9.48.115.161]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB5BsWGY006180; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 06:54:33 -0500 Message-ID: <43942A77.4030109@icu-project.org> Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 03:54:31 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst References: <4391055B.1080207@icu-project.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20051205173834.0581fce0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20051205173834.0581fce0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a92270ba83d7ead10c5001bb42ec3221 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Various comments from Mark X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Good comments. Responses below. Martin Duerst wrote: > Hello Mark, others, > > I have taken the liberty to change the subject. > > My personal comments, as a technical contributor, > below. > > At 11:39 05/12/03, Mark Davis wrote: > > more granular matching scheme > > > >=> > > > > more fine-grained matching scheme > > I wanted to complain about not knowing which > way 'granular' goes several times. Thanks for > proposing a good solution. > > >===== > > > > the set of language ranges in a language priority list > > > >=> > > > > the list of language ranges in a language priority list > > [list, since it is ordered] > > great fix > > >===== > > > > a case insensitive manner > > > >=> > > > > a case-insensitive manner > > [missing hyphens in compound adjectives] > > ok > > >===== > > > > Implementations might also wish to use semantic information external > > > >=> > > > > Implementations MAY use semantic information external > > I also didn't like 'might' (there are overall still too many > conditonals in the text), but I'm not totally sure increasing > the number of MAYs is a good thing. But it's probably okay here. > > >===== > > > > private-use subtags MAY be specified in the language range and MUST > > NOT be ignored when matching. > > > >=> > > > > Private-use subtags MAY be specified in the language range and MUST > > NOT be ignored when matching. > > ok > > > >===== > > > > Implementations or protocols sometimes might wish to use more > > sophisticated weights > > > >=> > > > > Implementations or protocols MAY use more sophisticated weights > > same as above for MAY > > >===== > > > > The language range "*" matches any language tag. In the lookup > > scheme, this language range does not convey enough information to > > determine which content is most appropriate. If this language range > > is the only one in the language priority list, it matches the > > default content. If this language range is followed by other > > language ranges, it should be skipped. > > > >=> > > > > The language range wildcard "*" matches any language tag. > > I'm okay to use "language range wildcard", but then please > make sure this is used consistently. > > > Since only > > one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcard > > must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might > > produce widely varying results). > > please avoid conditionals: > "(or the same request might produce widely varying results)" > => > "(otherwise the same request will produce widely varying results)" Agree: Since only one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcard must be processed in a predictable manner (otherwise the same request will produce widely varying results). > > > Where more than one piece of > > content would be returned, then the implementation MUST specify the > > method used to determine the result. > > 'Where', 'would', and 'then' don't make a reasonable sentence for me. > More general, the paragraph starts with "Since only one item can be > returned", so then speaking about more than one piece is confusing. How about: Where the use of a wildcard would cause matches with two different pieces of content, the implementation MUST specify the method used to choose between them. For example, the implementation could specify that the content tagged with the alphabetically-least language tag is returned. > > > For example, it could specify that if "*" is the only range in the > > language priority list, it matches the default content, while if "*" > > is followed by other language ranges, it is skipped. > > [2nd sentence is replaced by better language (copied from a few > > paragraphs below). Method transformed to example, since it should > > not be normative] > > > >===== > > > > Wildcard values in an extended language range are supposed to match > > any value that occurs in that position in a language tag. Since only > > one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcards > > must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might > > produce widely varying results). Thus, for each range in the > > language priority list, the following rules must be applied to > > produce a basic language range for use in the fallback mechanism > > > > ...* > > Figure 10: Extended Language Range Fallback Example * > > > >=> > > > > Wildcard values in an extended language range are supposed to > > 'are supposed to' doesn't sound very spec-like. Wildcard values in an extended language range are to match... > > > match > > any value that occurs in that position in a language tag. Since only > > one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcards > > must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might > > produce widely varying results). Where more than one piece of > > content would be returned, then > > Again, the 'then' doesn't work for me. Repeating from above: Since only one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcard must be processed in a predictable manner (otherwise the same request will produce widely varying results). Where the use of a wildcard would cause matches with two different pieces of content, the implementation MUST specify the method used to choose between them. For example, the implementation could specify that the content tagged with the alphabetically-least language tag is returned. > > > the implementation MUST specify the > > method used to determine the result. > > [The method supplied in the document doesn't match reasonable user > > expections, as stated earlier. Since we can't agree, leave it up to > > the implemention.] > > Regards, Martin. > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 12:27:13 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjK7N-0007ui-NR; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 12:27:13 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjK7M-0007ud-2k for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 12:27:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16349 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvmbxw02.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.quest.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjKSf-0001a0-6M for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 12:49:14 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw02.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:26:54 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:26:35 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: wildcards in lookup Thread-Index: AcX5wQrNa/PdRuh8QA2KPR0CXU/7Fw== From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2005 17:26:54.0353 (UTC) FILETIME=[1607A010:01C5F9C1] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Subject: [Ltru] wildcards in lookup X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0269316229==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0269316229== 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09:30:29 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Various comments from Mark Thread-Index: AcX5krhIB6fo1nIfS0+ibpNYfC3OYQAKCbuA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" , "Martin Duerst" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2005 17:30:40.0681 (UTC) FILETIME=[9CEE8990:01C5F9C1] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] RE: Various comments from Mark X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1012237521==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1012237521== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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2005 12:43:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvmbxw02.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.quest.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjKiu-00028k-NJ for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:06:01 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw02.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:43:47 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:43:32 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol Thread-Index: AcX5hq4FrktegJMPTDaCEfoFV0a2YQAO0KHw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2005 17:43:47.0291 (UTC) FILETIME=[71C9B2B0:01C5F9C3] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0504050634==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0504050634== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGlzIGEgZ29vZCB3YXkgdG8gc29sdmUgdGhpcyBzZXQgb2YgY29tbWVudHMu IFRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIGhlcmUgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGVyZSBhIGdvb2QgYml0IG9mIHRleHQgYWxyZWFk eSBpbiBwbGFjZSB0aGF0IHRhbGtzIGFib3V0ICJzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uLCBwcm90b2NvbHMsIG9y IGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyIgaW4gU2VjdGlvbiAxIGFuZCB0aGVzZSByZXBlYXQgYSBnb29kIGJpdCBv ZiB5b3VyIHByb3Bvc2VkIHRleHQuIEkgcHJvcG9zZSBpbnN0ZWFkIHRvIG1vZGlmeSB0aGUgcGFy YWdyYXBocyBpbiBxdWVzdGlvbiB0byBzYXk6DQoNCi0tDQo8dD5HaXZlbiBhIHNldCBvZiBsYW5n dWFnZSBpZGVudGlmaWVycywgc3VjaCBhcyB0aG9zZSBkZWZpbmVkIGluIDx4cmVmIHRhcmdldD0i 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Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjKcl-0007n3-Gi for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 12:59:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20375 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from e36.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.154]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjKy4-0002iy-Bm for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:21:43 -0500 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e36.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB5HxQb0020671 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:59:26 -0500 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.8) with ESMTP id jB5I0v7X073850 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:00:59 -0700 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jB5HxO1a032485 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:59:24 -0700 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sig-9-48-112-91.mts.ibm.com [9.48.112.91]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB5HxN7q032404; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:59:24 -0700 Message-ID: <43947FF9.3030509@icu-project.org> Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 09:59:21 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] wildcards in lookup References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 22bbb45ef41b733eb2d03ee71ece8243 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The problem is that your method subverts all user expectations about what wildcards mean. If I supply the range "*-US", and the possible content is es es-MX en en-US fr fr-FR fr-BE [i-default] then en-US is the obvious, clear choice. That is, after all, what is being asked for: a language tag consisting of language code = any + region code = 'US'. The same goes for where the range is "en-*". Given the above tagged content, it would be bizarre not to return "en-US". The implementation, for any system I know of, is not rocket science. Logically, you just enumerate through the available tags for the content you have, and see which (if any) matches. The only problematic case is the one where the range matches 2 or more language tags. In that case, I don't think we have any choice but to leave this implementation dependent. (Actually, we do; my preference would be to have a fully specified specification that used alphabetically-least, with the proviso that implementations are free to customize this area at will. But I can live with the incomplete specification if you really want it.) Mark Addison Phillips wrote: >Separately I sent an email responding to various small items Mark/Martin suggested I change. This item, though, I think needs its own thread. > >Mark suggested: > >===== > > Wildcard values in an extended language range are supposed to match > any value that occurs in that position in a language tag. Since only > one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcards > must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might > produce widely varying results). Thus, for each range in the > language priority list, the following rules must be applied to > produce a basic language range for use in the fallback mechanism > > ...* > Figure 10: Extended Language Range Fallback Example * > >=> > > Wildcard values in an extended language range are supposed to match > any value that occurs in that position in a language tag. Since only > one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcards > must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might > produce widely varying results). Where more than one piece of > content would be returned, then the implementation MUST specify the > method used to determine the result. > [The method supplied in the document doesn't match reasonable user > expections, as stated earlier. Since we can't agree, leave it up to > the implemention.] > >===== > >And later Martin opined: > > > >>>> Where more than one piece of >>>> content would be returned, then the implementation MUST specify the >>>> method used to determine the result. >>>> >>>> >>>'Where', 'would', and 'then' don't make a reasonable sentence for me. >>>More general, the paragraph starts with "Since only one item can be >>>returned", so then speaking about more than one piece is confusing. >>> >>> >>How about: >> >>Where the use of a wildcard would cause matches with two different >>pieces of content, the implementation MUST specify the method used to >>choose between them. For example, the implementation could specify that >>the content tagged with the alphabetically-least language tag is returned. >> >> >[Addison Phillips] > >Mark and I don't agree about this and I dislike Martin's suggestion even more. Here's the problem: when I implemented a lookup scheme I didn't seek all of the possible matching content first. I used the tag to construct directory or file names, truncating until I found a matching bit of content. > >When I consider Java's ResourceBundle class (which finds all matching content building out from root to the specified value before, returning content when the lookup fails to find a file), I see that the algorithm would have to change appreciably. Notably, it would have to load some content by name, with no way of knowing what that name actually was. > >That is, most implementations today actually would be forced to do what I propose: they rely on knowing the name tokens. A wild card works better if it matches nothing in that case. > >I think it is problematic not to say anything about what to do here. We know clearly what the problem is. Is there some reason why we should not specify at least one mechanism (we do not have to make it normative, as it is now)? > >To illustrate a bit more, if the range is "en-*-US", an implementation can either: > >1. Try to enumerate all matching content. If content is represented as directory or file names, the complete list of file/directory names must be loaded from one or more locations on disk and then processed to find all of the matches. These can then be selected based on some algorithm. > >2. Work as lookup has historically worked, by searching until there is a "miss" and return that item. If one works out from root, then the tree must be fully populated. > >So I don't favor making this change or I would prefer to make changes that spell some of this out. > >Addison > > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software >http://www.quest.com > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 13:02:34 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjKfa-0000DA-B9; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:02:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjKfZ-0000Af-AC for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:02:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20947 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from e31.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjL0r-0002uT-RH for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:24:36 -0500 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e31.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB5I2JeI002214 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:02:19 -0500 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.8) with ESMTP id jB5I3p7X098030 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:03:51 -0700 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jB5I2IOp010270 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:02:18 -0700 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sig-9-48-112-91.mts.ibm.com [9.48.112.91]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB5I2GsY010172; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:02:18 -0700 Message-ID: <439480A7.5070502@icu-project.org> Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:02:15 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol References: <6.0.0.20.2.20051205180843.070acd50@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20051205180843.070acd50@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I think that's a reasonable goal. I agree that the wording needs a bit of adjustment; in particular, I'd like to add a conformance requirement than any such option (at whatever level) be precisely specified. Mark Martin Duerst wrote: > [co-chair hat off] > > I have earlier raised an issue about the words > 'application' and 'protocol'. I don't think > I talked about 'implementation' then, but that > word is also all over the place, without ever > being clearly grounded. > > I propose that we add an explanation somewhere > at the end of section 1. The following text is > a first attempt, I'm sure it can be improved: > > The matching schemes defined in this document can > be used by (Internet) protocols, or, in cases where > there is no protocol, directly by applications. > Depending on the matching scheme, there are > various options left to the implementation. > This means that the option is left to the protocol > if the matching scheme is used by a protocol, or > directly by the application in case there is no > protocol. If there is a protocol, the protocol may > select some options, and my leave others open > to implementers of that protocol. > > Not sure the text above is very good, but I hope you > at least get the idea I wanted to put out. > > Regards, Martin. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 14:11:23 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjLkB-0003gm-6J; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:11:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjLk9-0003gB-H6 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:11:21 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28386 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 14:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjM5S-0005Nn-Sn for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:33:24 -0500 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB5JAujv014768; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:10:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:13:30 -0800 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Mark Davis'" , Addison Phillips Subject: RE: [Ltru] wildcards in lookup Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:13:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: df9edf1223802dd4cf213867a3af6121 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org +1 A specification that depends heavily on the use of wildcards MUST specify their behavior in a manner that is: (a) reasonable to a non-technical user; and (b) consistent across all implementations. Since language tags are restricted to a subset of ASCII, saying "numerically least" is easy to understand and consistent (though not fully deterministic, of course). Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > Mark Davis > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 12:59 PM > To: Addison Phillips > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] wildcards in lookup > > > The problem is that your method subverts all user expectations about > what wildcards mean. If I supply the range "*-US", and the possible > content is > > es > es-MX > en > en-US > fr > fr-FR > fr-BE > [i-default] > > then en-US is the obvious, clear choice. That is, after all, what is > being asked for: a language tag consisting of language code = any + > region code = 'US'. > > The same goes for where the range is "en-*". Given the above tagged > content, it would be bizarre not to return "en-US". > > The implementation, for any system I know of, is not rocket science. > Logically, you just enumerate through the available tags for > the content > you have, and see which (if any) matches. > > The only problematic case is the one where the range matches > 2 or more > language tags. In that case, I don't think we have any choice but to > leave this implementation dependent. (Actually, we do; my preference > would be to have a fully specified specification that used > alphabetically-least, with the proviso that implementations > are free to > customize this area at will. But I can live with the incomplete > specification if you really want it.) > > Mark > > Addison Phillips wrote: > > >Separately I sent an email responding to various small items > Mark/Martin suggested I change. This item, though, I think > needs its own thread. > > > >Mark suggested: > > > >===== > > > > Wildcard values in an extended language range are > supposed to match > > any value that occurs in that position in a language > tag. Since only > > one item can be returned for any given lookup request, > the wildcards > > must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same > request might > > produce widely varying results). Thus, for each range in the > > language priority list, the following rules must be applied to > > produce a basic language range for use in the fallback mechanism > > > > ...* > > Figure 10: Extended Language Range Fallback Example * > > > >=> > > > > Wildcard values in an extended language range are > supposed to match > > any value that occurs in that position in a language > tag. Since only > > one item can be returned for any given lookup request, > the wildcards > > must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same > request might > > produce widely varying results). Where more than one piece of > > content would be returned, then the implementation MUST > specify the > > method used to determine the result. > > [The method supplied in the document doesn't match > reasonable user > > expections, as stated earlier. Since we can't agree, > leave it up to > > the implemention.] > > > >===== > > > >And later Martin opined: > > > > > > > >>>> Where more than one piece of > >>>> content would be returned, then the implementation > MUST specify the > >>>> method used to determine the result. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>'Where', 'would', and 'then' don't make a reasonable > sentence for me. > >>>More general, the paragraph starts with "Since only one item can be > >>>returned", so then speaking about more than one piece is confusing. > >>> > >>> > >>How about: > >> > >>Where the use of a wildcard would cause matches with two different > >>pieces of content, the implementation MUST specify the > method used to > >>choose between them. For example, the implementation could > specify that > >>the content tagged with the alphabetically-least language > tag is returned. > >> > >> > >[Addison Phillips] > > > >Mark and I don't agree about this and I dislike Martin's > suggestion even more. Here's the problem: when I implemented > a lookup scheme I didn't seek all of the possible matching > content first. I used the tag to construct directory or file > names, truncating until I found a matching bit of content. > > > >When I consider Java's ResourceBundle class (which finds all > matching content building out from root to the specified > value before, returning content when the lookup fails to find > a file), I see that the algorithm would have to change > appreciably. Notably, it would have to load some content by > name, with no way of knowing what that name actually was. > > > >That is, most implementations today actually would be forced > to do what I propose: they rely on knowing the name tokens. A > wild card works better if it matches nothing in that case. > > > >I think it is problematic not to say anything about what to > do here. We know clearly what the problem is. Is there some > reason why we should not specify at least one mechanism (we > do not have to make it normative, as it is now)? > > > >To illustrate a bit more, if the range is "en-*-US", an > implementation can either: > > > >1. Try to enumerate all matching content. If content is > represented as directory or file names, the complete list of > file/directory names must be loaded from one or more > locations on disk and then processed to find all of the > matches. These can then be selected based on some algorithm. > > > >2. Work as lookup has historically worked, by searching > until there is a "miss" and return that item. If one works > out from root, then the tree must be fully populated. > > > >So I don't favor making this change or I would prefer to > make changes that spell some of this out. > > > >Addison > > > > > >Addison P. Phillips > >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >http://www.quest.com > > > >Internationalization is not a feature. > >It is an architecture. > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Ltru mailing list > >Ltru@ietf.org > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 14:32:54 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjM50-0001IX-Ig; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:32:54 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjM4x-0001IS-FW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:32:53 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00889 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 14:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjMQF-00067c-RQ for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:54:52 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:32:31 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] wildcards in lookup Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:32:30 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] wildcards in lookup Thread-Index: AcX5z68K3smNcjSeQTeYxK906dGMXQAAEAwQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" , "Mark Davis" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2005 19:32:31.0967 (UTC) FILETIME=[A2CC3EF0:01C5F9D2] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 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_______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0364160133==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 14:59:04 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjMUK-0000ec-0r; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:59:04 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjMUI-0000eU-QQ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:59:02 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04048 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 14:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjMpe-00074m-9y for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:21:06 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:58:52 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 1) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:58:51 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 1) Thread-Index: AcX5hpWeXm+K/YraQb2tHrDxiV+xjAAPN0lg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2005 19:58:52.0848 (UTC) FILETIME=[51138B00:01C5F9D6] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2a76bcd37b1c8a21336eb0a1ea6bbf48 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0475819976==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0475819976== 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--===============0475819976==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 15:02:29 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjMXd-0001Ji-AG; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:02:29 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjMXb-0001JU-Oe for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:02:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04539 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:01:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjMsw-0007Dt-UQ for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:24:32 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:02:17 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:02:16 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: all changes posted to editor's copy Thread-Index: AcX51sp3GGcaHq4BRPqE3aaDRzj+qQ== From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2005 20:02:17.0487 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB0CF9F0:01C5F9D6] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Subject: [Ltru] all changes posted to editor's copy X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0529447532==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0529447532== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWxsIG9mIHRoZSBjaGFuZ2VzIGluIHRoZSB3ZWVrZW5kIHNldCBvZiBjb21tZW50cyBhcmUgaW5j b3Jwb3JhdGVkIGludG8gdGhlIGVkaXRvcidzIGNvcHkgb2YgZHJhZnQtMDgsIHdoaWNoIGlzIHBv c3RlZCBvbiBpbnRlci1sb2NhbGUuY29tLiBUaGlzIGluY2x1ZGVzIHRoZSBjaGFuZ2VzIEkgcHJv cG9zZWQgb24gdGhlIHRocmVhZCB3aXRoIE1hcmsgYW5kIElyYSBhIGJpdCBhZ28uDQoNClNpbmNl IHNvbWUgc2VjdGlvbnMgbW92ZWQgYXJvdW5kLCBJIHdvbid0IHBvc3QgdGhpcyB1bnRpbCBhZnRl ciBJIGdldCBNYXJ0aW4ncyBzZWNvbmQgcm91bmQgb2YgY29tbWVudHMgYW5kIEhhcmFsZCdzIChp ZiB0aGV5IGhhcHBlbiBxdWlja2x5KQ0KDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmludGVyLWxvY2FsZS5jb20vSUQv ZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LW1hdGNoaW5nLTA4LnR4dA0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pbnRlci1sb2NhbGUu Y29tL0lEL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtbHRydS1tYXRjaGluZy0wOC5odG1sDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmludGVy LWxvY2FsZS5jb20vSUQvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LW1hdGNoaW5nLTA4LnhtbA0KDQpCZXN0IFJl Z2FyZHMsDQoNCkFkZGlzb24NCg0KQWRkaXNvbiBQLiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KR2xvYmFsaXphdGlvbiBB cmNoaXRlY3QsIFF1ZXN0IFNvZnR3YXJlDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnF1ZXN0LmNvbQ0KDQpJbnRlcm5h dGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLiAN Cg0K --===============0529447532== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0529447532==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 05 15:33:03 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjN1D-0002gV-H0; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:33:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjN1B-0002gQ-S0 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:33:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07253 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjNMX-0008C9-7g for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:55:06 -0500 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB5KWkcl024452 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:35:22 -0800 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:35:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Subject: [Ltru] FW: New W3C GEO article published: Localization vs. International ization X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, See link below - a good attempt at defining the terms "Localization" and "Internationalization" and the differences between the two from the W3C GEO folks. Worth reading and commenting on (there's a feedback spot right in the body of this document). Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com -----Original Message----- From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Richard Ishida Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 3:19 PM To: www-international@w3.org Subject: New article published: Localization vs. Internationalization After incorporating comments from the review phase, the GEO Working Group has published the article: Localization vs. Internationalization http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n By Richard Ishida, W3C, & Susan K. Miller, Boeing The article provides an answer to the question: What do the terms 'internationalization' and 'localization' mean, and how are they related? You can find various news filters and RSS feeds relating to the work of the Internationalization Activity at http://www.w3.org/International/log/description ============ Richard Ishida Internationalization Lead W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ http://www.w3.org/International/ http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 02:51:48 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjXc3-0008Pf-Tr; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 02:51:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjXc2-0008Pa-EC for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 02:51:46 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19382 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 02:50:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjXxQ-0006Op-Kx for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:13:56 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8023425971B for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 08:50:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10408-09 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 08:50:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5120259717 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 08:50:40 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:50:42 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <01FFDCB30B17FF8033A30EA9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 66322e0d30ffa13d69b40d2c1cdbdca8 Subject: [Ltru] Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0063986843==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0063986843== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========14969532DDBF57FCEEEF==========" --==========14969532DDBF57FCEEEF========== Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==========C26B586CE011E711345A==========" --==========C26B586CE011E711345A========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At long last, I have managed to read through the whole of=20 draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 and mark it up with comments. I am not happy with the current state of this document. Most important points: - The writing is inconsistent about what the inputs and outputs of a=20 matching function is. Sometimes it talks about language ranges, sometimes=20 it talks about language priority lists. I think it needs to always describe = the function in terms of language priority lists. Generically: Match(LPL, Language-tag-set) =3D> List(pair(Language-tag, score)) where LPL is a language priority list and language-tag-set is the set of=20 language tags for the resources to be matched to the request. - The lookup function, as designed, is broken. It introduces truncation of=20 language tags outside of the user's control, and it prefers truncated=20 versions of early tags in a LPL to full versions of later ones. A much better lookup function is simply "use matching and pick the=20 highest-scoring result; if the result set is empty, use default". User=20 interfaces can do the expansion IF they decide it's useful to do so. - The spec needs to make up its mind about whether it's specifying an=20 algorithm for the IETF standards track or giving a bunch of useful advice=20 to people writing language tag matching functions. If it's the former,=20 EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of "an implementation MAY decide to...", where that=20 can affect the returned result, needs to be removed from the specification. A more detailed markup is enclosed, including notes of the five (?) places=20 where "zh" has turned into "z.", but these are the 3 high points; I believe = these are items the WG needs to discuss and have consensus on. Harald --==========C26B586CE011E711345A========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; name="comments-draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="comments-draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07.txt"; size=56913 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Network Working Group A. Phillips, Ed. Internet-Draft Quest Software Obsoletes: 3066 (if approved) M. Davis, Ed. Expires: May 22, 2006 IBM November 18, 2005 Matching of Language Tags draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 Status of this Memo By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet- Drafts. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt. The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. This Internet-Draft will expire on May 22, 2006. Copyright Notice Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). Abstract This document describes different mechanisms for comparing, matching, and evaluating language tags. Possible algorithms for language negotiation and content selection are described. This document, in combination with RFC 3066bis (replace "3066bis" with the RFC number assigned to draft-ietf-ltru-registry-14), replaces RFC 3066, which replaced RFC 1766. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 1] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2. The Language Range . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2.1. Lists of Language Ranges . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2.2. Basic Language Range . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2.3. Extended Language Range . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2.4. Choosing a Language Range . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3. Types of Matching . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 3.1. Choosing a Type of Matching . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 3.2. Filtering . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 3.2.1. Filtering with Basic Language Ranges . . . . . . . . . 11 3.2.2. Filtering with Extended Language Ranges . . . . . . . 11 3.2.3. Scored Filtering . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 3.3. Lookup . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 4. Other Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 4.1. Meaning of Language Tags and Ranges . . . . . . . . . . . 18 4.2. Considerations for Private Use Subtags . . . . . . . . . . 19 4.3. Length Considerations in Matching . . . . . . . . . . . . 19 5. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22 6. Changes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 7. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24 8. Character Set Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 9. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 9.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 9.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 Appendix A. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements . . . . . . . . . . 29 Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 2] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 1. Introduction Human beings on our planet have, past and present, used a number of languages. There are many reasons why one would want to identify the language used when presenting or requesting information. Information about a user's language preferences commonly need to be identified so that appropriate processing can be applied. For example, the user's language preferences in a browser can be used to select web pages appropriately. Language preferences can also be used to select among tools (such as dictionaries) to assist in the processing or understanding of content in different languages. Given a set of language identifiers, such as those defined in [RFC3066bis], various mechanisms can be envisioned for performing language negotiation and tag matching. Applications, protocols, or specifications will have varying needs and requirements that affect the choice of a suitable mechanism. This document defines several mechanisms for matching, selecting, or filtering content whose natural language is identified using Language Tags [RFC3066bis], as well as the syntax (called a "language range") associated with each of these mechanisms for specifying the user's language preferences. This document, in combination with [RFC3066bis] (replace "3066bis" globally in this document with the RFC number assigned to draft-ietf-ltru-registry-14), replaces [RFC3066], which replaced [RFC1766]. The keywords "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119]. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 3] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 2. The Language Range Language Tags [RFC3066bis] are used to identify the language of some information item or content. Applications or protocols that use language tags are often faced with the problem of identifying sets of content that share certain language attributes. For example, HTTP/1.1 [RFC2616] describes language ranges in its discussion of the Accept-Language header (Section 14.4). These are to be used when selecting content from servers based on the language of that content. When selecting content according to its language, it is useful to have a mechanism for identifying sets of language tags that share specific attributes. This allows users to select or filter content based on specific requirements. Such an identifier is called a "Language Range". Language tags and thus language ranges are to be treated as case insensitive: there exist conventions for the capitalization of some of the subtags, but these MUST NOT be taken to carry meaning. Matching of language tags to language ranges MUST be done in a case insensitive manner as well. 2.1. Lists of Language Ranges When users specify a language preference they often need to specify a prioritized list of language ranges in order to best reflect their language preferences. This is especially true for speakers of minority languages. A speaker of Breton in France, for example, may specify "be" followed by "fr", meaning that if Breton is available, it is preferred, but otherwise French is the best alternative. It can get more complex: a speaker may wish to fall back from Skolt Sami to Northern Sami to Finnish. A "Language Priority List" consists of a prioritized or weighted list of language ranges. One well known example of such a list is the "Accept-Language" header defined in RFC 2616 [RFC2616] (see Section 14.4) and RFC 3282 [RFC3282]. HTA: Need to specify whether or not a simple list is taken to be a priority = list in descending order (as RFC 3282 said) or not. The various matching operations described in this document include considerations for using a language priority list. When given as examples in this document, language priority lists will be shown as a quoted sequence of ranges separated by semi-colons, like this: "en; fr; zh-Hant" (which would be read as "English before French before Chinese as written in the Traditional script"). 2.2. Basic Language Range A "Basic Language Range" identifies the set of content whose language Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 4] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 tags begin with the same sequence of subtags. A basic language range is identified by its 'language range' tag, by adapting the ABNF[RFC4234] from HTTP/1.1 [RFC2616] : language-range =3D language-tag / "*" language-tag =3D 1*8[alphanum] *["-" 1*8alphanum] alphanum =3D ALPHA / DIGIT That is, a language-range has the same syntax as a language-tag or is the single character "*". Basic Language Ranges imply that there is a semantic relationship between language tags that share the same HTA: No, they don't. They may SEEM to. prefix. While this is often the case, it is not always true and users should note that the set of language tags that match a specific language-range may not be mutually intelligible. Basic language ranges were originally described in [RFC3066] and HTTP/1.1 [RFC2616] (where they are referred to as simply a "language range"). 2.3. Extended Language Range A Basic Language Range does not always provide the most appropriate way to specify a user's preferences. Sometimes it is beneficial to use a more granular matching scheme that takes advantage of the internal structure of language tags, by allowing the user to specify, for example, the value of a specific field in a language tag or to indicate which values are of interest in filtering or selecting the content. HTA: There is no syntactict distinction between basic and extended language = ranges. The choice is made by the context. This needs to be made clear. = **MORE** In an extended language range, the identifier takes the form of a series of subtags which MUST consist of well-formed subtags or the special subtag "*". For example, the language range "en-*-US" specifies a primary language of 'en', followed by any script subtag, followed by the region subtag 'US'. An extended language range can be represented by the following ABNF: extended-language-range =3D range ; a range / privateuse ; private-use tag / grandfathered ; grandfathered registrations HTA: These comments add no value. range =3D (language ["-" script] ["-" region] *("-" variant) *("-" extension) ["-" privateuse]) language =3D (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 5] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag / "*" ; ... or wildcard extlang =3D *2("-" 3ALPHA) ("-" ( 3ALPHA / "*")) ; reserved for future use ; wildcard can only appear ; at the end script =3D 4ALPHA ; ISO 15924 code / "*" ; or wildcard region =3D 2ALPHA ; ISO 3166 code / 3DIGIT ; UN M.49 code / "*" ; ... or wildcard variant =3D 5*8alphanum ; registered variants / (DIGIT 3alphanum) ; / "*" ; ... or wildcard extension =3D singleton *("-" (2*8alphanum)) [ "-*" ] ; extension subtags ; wildcard can only appear ; at the end singleton =3D %x41-57 / %x59-5A / %x61-77 / %x79-7A / DIGIT ; "a"-"w" / "y"-"z" / "A"-"W" / "Y"-"Z" / "0"-"9" ; Single letters: x/X is reserved for private use HTA: Any reason for not using quoted ABNF strings? privateuse =3D ("x"/"X") 1*("-" (1*8alphanum)) HTA: ABNF error. Case insensitivty means that the two alternatives are = equal. grandfathered =3D 1*3ALPHA 1*2("-" (2*8alphanum)) ; grandfathered registration ; Note: I is the only singleton ; that starts a grandfathered tag alphanum =3D (ALPHA / DIGIT) ; letters and numbers A field not present in the middle of an extended language range MAY HTA: MAY has no meaning here. Either it's equivalent or it is not. be treated as if the field contained a "*". For example, the range "en-US" MAY be considered to be equivalent to the range "en-*-US". This also means that multiple wildcards can be collapsed (so that "en-*-*-US" is equivalent to "en-*-US"). 2.4. Choosing a Language Range Users indicate their language preferences via the choice of a language range or the set of language ranges in the language priority Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 6] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 list. The type of matching will affect what the best choice is for given user. In addition, user's should be aware that, when working HTA: user's =3D> users with language ranges, most matching schemes make no attempt to process the semantic meaning of the subtags. The language tag and language range (or their subtags) are usually compared in a case insensitive manner using basic string processing. Thus the choice of subtags in both the language tag and language range may affect the results produced. HTA: This is true for basic, but not for extended ranges. Rewrite. Users SHOULD avoid subtags that add no distinguishing value to a language range. For example, script subtags SHOULD NOT be used to form a language range with language subtags which have a matching Suppress-Script field in their registry record. Thus the language range "en-Latn" is probably inappropriate in most cases (because the vast majority of English documents are written in the Latin script and thus the 'en' language subtag has a Suppress-Script field for 'Latn' in the registry). HTA: This makes sense only for Extended ranges. When working with tags and ranges, note that extensions and most private-use subtags are orthogonal to language tag fallback and users SHOULD avoid using these subtags in language ranges, since they will often interfere with the selection of available language content. Since these subtags are always at the end of the sequence of subtags, they don't normally interfere with the use of prefixes for the filtering schemes described below in Section 3. When working with tags and ranges users SHOULD note the following: 1. Private-use and Extension subtags are normally orthogonal to language tag fallback. Implementations or specifications that use a lookup (Section 3.3) matching scheme SHOULD ignore unrecognized private-use and extension subtags when performing language tag fallback. Since these subtags are always at the end of the sequence of subtags, they don't normally interfere with the use of prefixes for matching in the schemes described below. 2. Applications, specifications, or protocols that choose not to interpret one or more private-use or extension subtags SHOULD NOT remove or modify these extensions in content that they are processing. When a language tag instance is to be used in a specific, known protocol, and is not being passed through to other protocols, language tags MAY be filtered to remove subtags and extensions that are not supported by that protocol. Such filtering SHOULD be avoided, if possible, since it removes information that might be relevant if services on the other end of the protocol would make use of that information. HTA: The concept of "protocol" here does not make sense to me. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 7] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 3. Some applications of language tags might want or need to consider extensions and private-use subtags when matching tags. If extensions and private-use subtags are included in a matching or filtering process that utilizes the one of the schemes described in this document, then the implementation SHOULD canonicalize the language tags and/or ranges before performing the matching. Note that language tag processors that claim to be "well-formed" processors as defined in [RFC3066bis] generally fall into this category. HTA: Canonicalizing tags with extensions and not canonicalizing tags = without extensions makes no sense to me. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 8] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 3. Types of Matching Matching language ranges to language tags can be done in a number of different ways. This section describes the different types of matching scheme, as well as the considerations for choosing between them. Protocols and specifications SHOULD clearly indicate the particular mechanism used in selecting or matching language tags. There are two basic types of matching scheme: those that produce an open-ended set of content (called "filtering") and those that produce a single information item for a given request (called "lookup"). HTA: suggest replacing "open-ended set" with "zero or more information = items" A key difference between these two types of matching scheme is that the language range for filtering operations is always the _least_ specific tag one will accept as a match, while for lookup operations the language range is always the _most_ specific tag. HTA: I do not agree with this characterization. Note also that the input to = both matching and lookup will normally (I think) be a list of language = ranges. 3.1. Choosing a Type of Matching Applications, protocols, and specifications are faced with the decision of what type of matching to use. Sometimes, different styles of matching might be suited for different kinds of processing within a particular application or protocol. Filtering can be used to produce a set of results (such as a collection of documents). For example, if using a search engine, one might use filtering to limit the results to documents written in French. It can also be used when deciding whether to perform some processing that is language sensitive on some content. For example, a process might cause paragraphs whose language tag matched the language range "nl" to be displayed in italics within a document. This document describes three types of filtering: 1. Basic Filtering (Section 3.2.1) is used to match content using basic language ranges (Section 2.2). It is compatible with implementations that do not produce extended language ranges. HTA: Second sentence adds no information. Suggest deleting. 2. Extended Range Filtering (Section 3.2.2) is used to match content using extended language ranges (Section 2.3). Newer implementations SHOULD use this form of filtering in preference to basic filtering. HTA: I disagree with the second sentence. Suggest deleting. 3. Scored Filtering (Section 3.2.3) produces an ordered set of content using either basic or extended language ranges. It SHOULD be used when the quality of the match within a specific language range is important, as when presenting a list of documents resulting from a search. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 9] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 Lookup (Section 3.3) is used when each request MUST produce exactly one piece of content. For example, a Web server might use the Accept-Language HTTP header to choose which language to return a custom 404 page in: since it can return only one page, it must choose a single item and it must return some item, even if no content matches the language ranges supplied by the user. Most types of matching in this document are designed so that implementations do not have to examine the values of the subtags supplied and, except for scored filtering, they do not need access to the Language Subtag Registry nor do they require the use of valid subtags in either language tags or language ranges. This has great benefit for speed and simplicity of implementation. HTA: However, if canonicalization is used, they must use the registry.... Implementations might also wish to use semantic information external to the language tags when performing fallback. For example, the HTA: s/language tags/language tag registration info/ primary language subtags 'nn' (Nynorsk Norwegian) and 'nb' (Bokmal Norwegian) might both be usefully matched to the more general subtag 'no' (Norwegian). Or an implementation might infer that content labeled "zh-CN" is more likely to match the range "zh-Hans" than equivalent content labeled "zh-TW". 3.2. Filtering Filtering is used to select the set of content that matches a given prefix. It is called "filtering" because this set of content may contain no items at all or it may return an arbitrary number of matching items--as many as match the language range used to specify the items, thus filtering out the non-matching content. HTA: Again, need to specify in terms of language priority lists. In filtering, the language range represents the _least_ specific tag which is an acceptable match. That is, all of the language tags in the set of filtered content will have an equal or greater number of subtags than the language range. For example, if the language range is "de-CH", one might see matching content with the tag "de-CH-1996" but one will never see a match with the tag "de". HTA: "if the language priority list contains de-CH" If the language priority list (see Section 2.1) contains more than one range, the content returned is typically ordered in descending level of preference. Some examples where filtering might be appropriate include: o Applying a style to sections of a document in a particular language range. o Displaying the set of documents containing a particular set of keywords written in a specific language. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 10] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 o Selecting all email items written in specific range of languages. Filtering can produce either an ordered or an unordered set of results. For example, applying formatting to a document based on the language of specific pieces of content does not require the content to be ordered. It is sufficient to know whether a specific piece of content matches or does not match. A search application, on the other hand, probably would put the results into a priority order. HTA: Is "match/do not match" a different kind of application than filtering = or lookup? It seems odd to fit it in here. If an ordered set is desired, as described above, then the application or protocol needs to determine the relative "quality" of the match between different language tags and the language range. This measurement is called a "distance metric". A distance metric assigns a numeric value to the comparison of each language tag to a language range and represents the 'distance' between the two. A distance of zero means that they are identical, a small distance indicates that they are very similar, and a large distance indicated that they are very different. Using a distance metric, implementations can, for example, allow users to select a threshold distance for a match to be "successful" while filtering or it can use the numeric value to order the results. HTA: Need comma after "filtering" 3.2.1. Filtering with Basic Language Ranges When filtering using a basic language range, the language range matches a language tag if it exactly equals the tag, or if it exactly equals a prefix of the tag such that the first character following the prefix is "-". (That is, the language-range "de-de" matches the language tag "de-DE-1996", but not the language tag "de-Deva".) The special range "*" matches any tag. A protocol which uses language ranges MAY specify additional rules about the semantics of "*"; for instance, HTTP/1.1 specifies that the range "*" matches only languages not matched by any other range within an "Accept-Language" header. HTA: We're talking about language priority lists again. 3.2.2. Filtering with Extended Language Ranges In the Extended Range Matching scheme, each extended language range in the language priority list is considered in turn, according to priority. The subtags in each extended language range are compared to the corresponding subtags in the language tag being examined. The subtag from the range is considered to match if it exactly matches the corresponding subtag in the tag or the range's subtag has the value "*" (which matches all subtags, including the empty subtag). Extended Range Matching is an extension of basic matching (Section 3.2.1): the language range represents the least specific tag Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 11] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 which is an acceptable match. private-use subtags MAY be specified in the language range and MUST NOT be ignored when matching. HTA: What does it mean to not ignore them? Suggest deleting, since the = concept of "ignoring" is not mentioned elsewhere in the paragraph. Subtags not specified, including those at the end of the language range, are assigned the value "*". This makes each range into a prefix much like that used in basic language range matching. For example, the extended language range "de-*-DE" matches all of the following tags because the unspecified variant field is expanded to "*": de-DE de-Latn-DE de-Latf-DE de-DE-x-goethe de-Latn-DE-1996 HTA: Need to say that in a language priority list, the priority value given = to each element (0-1) is used to return priority; if an item matches = multiple ranges, the highest score is returned for that element. 3.2.3. Scored Filtering Both basic and extended language range filtering produce simple boolean matches. Sometimes it may be beneficial to provide an array of results with different levels of matching, for example, sorting results based on the overall "quality" of the match. Scored (or "distance metric") filtering provides a way to generate these quality values. First both the extended language range and the language tags to be matched to it must be canonicalized by mapping grandfathered and obsolete tags into modern equivalents. HTA: This needs access to the registry. Need to say that. The language range and the language tags are then transformed into quintuples of elements of the form (language, script, country, variant, extension). Any extended language subtags are considered part of the language element; private-use subtag sequences are considered part of the language element if in the initial position in the tag and part of the variant element if not. Language subtags 'und', 'mul', and the script subtag 'Zyyy' are converted to "*". HTA: What's the logic with not treating x- just like any other extension? As far as I can see, it makes no difference, and makes the code more = complex. Missing components in the language-tag are set to "*"; thus a "*" pattern becomes the quintuple ("*", "*", "*", "*", "*"). Missing components in the extended language-range are handled similarly to extended range lookup: missing internal subtags are expanded to "*". Missing end subtags are expanded as the empty string. Thus a pattern Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 12] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 "en-US" becomes the quintuple ("en","*","US","",""). Here are some examples of language tags, showing their quintuples as both language tags and language ranges: en-US Tag: (en, *, US, *, *) Range: (en, *, US, "", "") sr-Latn Tag: (sr, Latn, *, *, *) Range: (sr, Latn, "", "", "") zh-cmn-Hant Tag: (zh-cmn, Hant, *, *, *) Range: (zh-cmn, Hant, "", "", "") x-foo Tag: (x-foo, *, *, *, *) Range: (x-foo, "", "", "", "") en-x-foo Tag: (en, *, *, x-foo, *) Range: (en, *, *, x-foo, "") i-default Tag: (i-default, *, *, *, *) Range: (i-default, "", "", "", "") sl-Latn-IT-rozaj Tag: (sl, Latn, IT, rozaj, *) Range: (sl, Latn, IT, rozaj, "") zh-r-wadegile (hypothetical) Tag: (z., *, *, *, r-wadegile) Range: (z., *, *, *, r-wadegile) Figure 3: Examples of Distance Metric Quintuples Each language-range/language-tag pair being compared is assigned a distance value, whereby small values indicate better matches and large values indicate worse ones. The distance between the pair is the sum of the distances for each of the corresponding elements of the quintuple. If the elements are identical or one is '*', then the distance value between them is zero. Otherwise, it is given by the following table: Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 13] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 256 language mismatch 128 script mismatch 32 region mismatch 4 variant mismatch 1 extension mismatch A value of 0 is a perfect match; 421 is no match at all. Different threshold values might be appropriate for different applications or protocols. Implementations will usually allow users to choose the most appropriate selection value, ranking the matched items based on score. HTA: Implementation choice means unpredictable results. Say what the = algorithm is. Examples of various tag's distances from the range "en-US": "fr-FR" 384 (language & region mismatch) "fr" 256 (language mismatch, region match) "en-GB" 32 (region mismatch) "en-Latn-US" 0 (all fields match) "en-Brai" 32 (region mismatch) "en-US-x-foo" 4 (variant mismatch: range is the empty string) "en-US-r-wadegile" 1 (extension mismatch: range is the empty string) HTA: Need to say how this works together with the weights in a language = priority list. Implementations or protocols sometimes might wish to use more sophisticated weights that depend on the values of the corresponding elements. For example, depending on the domain, an implementation might give a small distance to the difference closely related subtags. Some examples of closely related subtags might be: HTA: Need to say whether this is part of the algorithm for THIS matching = algorithm or an extension that people can build on to make OTHER matching = algorithms. This matters for interoperability. Language: no (Norwegian) nb (Bokmal Norwegian) nn (Nynorsk Norwegian) Script: Kata (katakana) Hira (hiragana) Region: US (United States of America) UM (United States Minor Outlying Islands Figure 6: Examples of Closely Related Subtags 3.3. Lookup Lookup is used to select the single information item that best matches the language priority list for a given request. In lookup, each language-range in the language priority list represents the Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 14] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 _most_ specific tag which is an acceptable match; only the closest matching item according the user's priority is returned. For example, if the language range is "de-CH", one might expect to receive an information item with the tag "de" but never one with the tag "de-CH-1996". Usually if no content matches the request, a "default" item is returned. HTA: This means that one behaves as if each element a-b-c-d is replaced = with the language priority list a-b-c-d, a-b-c, a-b, a. I think this is a = Bad Idea. For example, if an application inserts some dynamic content into a document, returning an empty string if there is no exact match is not an option. Instead, the application "falls back" until it finds a suitable piece of content to insert. Other examples of lookup might include: o Selection of a template containing the text for an automated email response. o Selection of a graphic containing text for inclusion in a particular Web page. o Selection of a string of text for inclusion in an error log. In the Lookup scheme, the language-range is progressively truncated from the end until a matching piece of content is located. For example, starting with the range "zh-Hant-CN-x-private", the lookup would progressively search for content as shown below: Range to match: zh-Hant-CN-x-private 1. zh-Hant-CN-x-private 2. zh-Hant-CN 3. zh-Hant 4. z. HTA: This should be zh 5. (default content or the empty tag) Figure 7: Example of a Lookup Fallback Pattern This scheme allows some flexibility in finding content. It also typically provides better results when data is not available at a specific level of tag granularity or is sparsely populated (than if the default language for the system or content were used). The language range "*" matches any language tag. In the lookup scheme, this language range does not convey enough information to determine which content is most appropriate. If this language range is the only one in the language priority list, it matches the default content. If this language range is followed by other language ranges, it should be skipped. When performing lookup using a language priority list, the Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 15] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 progressive search MUST proceed to consider each language range before finding the default content or empty tag. The default content might be content with no language tag (or with an empty value, as with xml:lang in the XML specification), or it might be a particular language designated for that bit of content. One common way to provide for default content is to allow a specific language range to be set as the default for a specific type of request. This language range is then treated as if it were appended to the end of the language priority list, rather than after each item in the language priority list. For example, if a particular user's language priority list were "fr-FR; zh-Hant" and the program doing the matching had a default language range of "ja-JP", the program would search for content as follows: 1. fr-FR 2. fr HTA: This is broken. Consider the case of sgn-GB, en-Brail, en 3. zh-Hant // next language 4. z. HTA: zh 5. (return default content) a. ja-JP b. ja c. (empty tag or other default content) Figure 8: Lookup Using a Language Priority List In some cases, the language priority list might contain one or more extended language ranges (as, for example, when the same language priority list is used as input for both lookup and filtering operations). Wildcard values in an extended language range are supposed to match any value that occurs in that position in a language tag. Since only one item can be returned for any given lookup request, the wildcards must be processed in a predictable manner (or the same request might produce widely varying results). Thus, for each range in the language priority list, the following rules must be applied to produce a basic language range for use in the fallback mechanism: 1. If the first subtag in the extended language range is a "*" then entire range is converted to "*". 2. For each subsequent subtag, if the value is a "*" then that subtag and its preceding hyphen are removed. For example: Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 16] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 *-US becomes * en-*-US becomes en-US en-Latn-* becomes en-Latn Figure 9: Transformation of Extended Language Ranges For the language priority list "*-US; fr-*-FR; zh-Hant", the fallback pattern would be: 1. * (skipped) 2. fr-FR 3. fr 4. zh-Hant 5. z. 6. (default content) Figure 10: Extended Language Range Fallback Example Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 17] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 4. Other Considerations When working with language ranges and matching schemes, there are some additional points that may influence the choice of either. 4.1. Meaning of Language Tags and Ranges Selecting content using language ranges requires some understanding by users of what they are selecting. A language tag or range identifies a language as spoken (or written, signed or otherwise signaled) by human beings for communication of information to other human beings. If a language tag B contains language tag A as a prefix, then B is typically "narrower" or "more specific" than A. For example, "zh- Hant-TW" is more specific than "zh-Hant". This relationship is not guaranteed in all cases: specifically, languages that begin with the same sequence of subtags are NOT guaranteed to be mutually intelligible, although they might be. For example, the tag "az" shares a prefix with both "az-Latn" (Azerbaijani written using the Latin script) and "az-Arab" (Azerbaijani written using the Arabic script). A person fluent in one script might not be able to read the other, even though the text might be otherwise identical. Content tagged as "az" most probably is written in just one script and thus might not be intelligible to a reader familiar with the other script. Variant subtags in particular seem to represent specific divisions in mutual understanding, since they often encode dialects or other idiosyncratic variations within a language. HTA: They also seem to represent relatively low divisions - high chance of = at least limited understanding. The relationship between the language tag and the information it relates to is defined by the standard describing the context in which it appears. Accordingly, this section can only give possible examples of its usage: o For a single information object, the associated language tags might be interpreted as the set of languages that are necessary for a complete comprehension of the complete object. Example: Plain text documents. o For an aggregation of information objects, the associated language tags could be taken as the set of languages used inside components of that aggregation. Examples: Document stores and libraries. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 18] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 o For information objects whose purpose is to provide alternatives, the associated language tags could be regarded as a hint that the content is provided in several languages, and that one has to inspect each of the alternatives in order to find its language or languages. In this case, the presence of multiple tags might not mean that one needs to be multi-lingual to get complete understanding of the document. Example: MIME multipart/ alternative. o In markup languages, such as HTML and XML, language information can be added to each part of the document identified by the markup structure (including the whole document itself). For example, one could write C'est la vie. inside a Norwegian document; the Norwegian-speaking user could then access a French-Norwegian dictionary to find out what the marked section meant. If the user were listening to that document through a speech synthesis interface, this formation could be used to signal the synthesizer to appropriately apply French text-to-speech pronunciation rules to that span of text, instead of misapplying the Norwegian rules. 4.2. Considerations for Private Use Subtags Private-use subtags require private agreement between the parties that intend to use or exchange language tags that use them and great caution SHOULD be used in employing them in content or protocols intended for general use. Private-use subtags are simply useless for information exchange without prior arrangement. The value and semantic meaning of private-use tags and of the subtags used within such a language tag are not defined. Matching private- use tags using language ranges or extended language ranges can result in unpredictable content being returned. 4.3. Length Considerations in Matching RFC 3066 [RFC3066] did not provide an upper limit on the size of language tags or ranges. RFC 3066 did define the semantics of particular subtags in such a way that most language tags or ranges consisted of language and region subtags with a combined total length of up to six characters. Larger tags and ranges (in terms of both subtags and characters) did exist, however. [RFC3066bis] also does not impose a fixed upper limit on the number of subtags in a language tag or range (and thus an upper bound on the size of either). The syntax in that document suggests that, depending on the specific language or range of languages, more subtags (and thus characters) are sometimes necessary as a result. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 19] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 Length considerations and their impact on the selection and processing of tags are described in Section 2.1.1 of that document. An application or protocol MAY choose to limit the length of the language tags or ranges used in matching. Any such limitation SHOULD be clearly documented, and such documentation SHOULD include the disposition of any longer tags or ranges (for example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag or range is truncated). If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided, since this changes the semantics of the subtag being matched and can result in false positives or negatives. Applications or protocols that restrict storage SHOULD consider the impact of tag or range truncation on the resulting matches. For example, removing the "*" from the end of an extended language range (see Section 2.3) can greatly modify the set of returned matches. A protocol that allows tags or ranges to be truncated at an arbitrary limit, without giving any indication of what that limit is, has the potential for causing harm by changing the meaning of values in substantial ways. In practice, most tags do not require additional subtags or substantially more characters. Additional subtags sometimes add useful distinguishing information, but extraneous subtags interfere with the meaning, understanding, and especially matching of language tags. Since language tags or ranges MAY be truncated by an application or protocol that limits storage, when choosing language tags or ranges users and applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no distinguishing value. In particular, users and implementations SHOULD follow the 'Prefix' and 'Suppress-Script' fields in the registry (defined in Section 3.6 of [RFC3066bis]): these fields provide guidance on when specific additional subtags SHOULD (and SHOULD NOT) be used. Implementations MUST support a limit of at least 33 characters. This limit includes at least one subtag of each non-extension, non-private use type. When choosing a buffer limit, a length of at least 42 characters is strongly RECOMMENDED. The practical limit on tags or ranges derived solely from registered values is 42 characters. Implementations MUST be able to handle tags and ranges of this length. Support for tags and ranges of at least 62 characters in length is RECOMMENDED. Implementations MAY support longer values, including matching extensive sets of private-use or extension subtags. Applications or protocols which have to truncate a tag MUST do so by progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" from Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 20] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough for the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a single-character subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. For example: Tag to truncate: zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile-private1 1. zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile 2. zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1 3. zh-Latn-CN-variant1 4. zh-Latn-CN 5. zh-Latn 6. z. HTA: zh Figure 11: Example of Tag Truncation Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 21] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 5. IANA Considerations This document presents no new or existing considerations for IANA. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 22] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 6. Changes This is the first version of this document. The following changes were put into this document since draft-06: Changed the document title from the unwieldy "Matching Tags for the Identification of Languages" to "Matching Language Tags" (Ed.) Fixed problems with the distance metric filtering scheme (Section 3.2.3) examples (in which tags were expanded incorrectly). (D.Ewell) Moved the sentence "Protocols and specifications SHOULD clearly indicate the particular mechanism used in selecting or matching language tags." from the introduction (where there should not be any normative language) to the start of Section 3. (A.Phillips) Created section Section 2.4 and moved text there (A.Phillips) Modified the examples of closely related subtags in Section 3.2.3 to show what the examples mean (M.Duerst) Various spelling and grammatical fixes (D.Ewell) Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 23] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 7. Security Considerations Language ranges used in content negotiation might be used to infer the nationality of the sender, and thus identify potential targets for surveillance. In addition, unique or highly unusual language ranges or combinations of language ranges might be used to track a specific individual's activities. This is a special case of the general problem that anything you send is visible to the receiving party. It is useful to be aware that such concerns can exist in some cases. The evaluation of the exact magnitude of the threat, and any possible countermeasures, is left to each application or protocol. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 24] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 8. Character Set Considerations The syntax of language tags and language ranges permit only the characters A-Z, a-z, 0-9, and HYPHEN-MINUS (%x2D). These characters are present in most character sets, so presentation of language tags should not present any character set issues. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 25] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 9. References 9.1. Normative References [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. [RFC2616] Fielding, R., Gettys, J., Mogul, J., Frystyk, H., Masinter, L., Leach, P., and T. Berners-Lee, "Hypertext Transfer Protocol -- HTTP/1.1", RFC 2616, June 1999. [RFC3066bis] Phillips, A., Ed. and M. Davis, Ed., "Tags for the Identification of Languages", October 2005, . [RFC4234] Crocker, D. and P. Overell, "Augmented BNF for Syntax Specifications: ABNF", RFC 4234, October 2005. 9.2. Informative References [RFC1766] Alvestrand, H., "Tags for the Identification of Languages", RFC 1766, March 1995. [RFC3066] Alvestrand, H., "Tags for the Identification of Languages", BCP 47, RFC 3066, January 2001. [RFC3282] Alvestrand, H., "Content Language Headers", RFC 3282, May 2002. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 26] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 Appendix A. Acknowledgements Any list of contributors is bound to be incomplete; please regard the following as only a selection from the group of people who have contributed to make this document what it is today. The contributors to [RFC3066bis], [RFC3066] and [RFC1766], each of which is a precursor to this document, made enormous contributions directly or indirectly to this document and are generally responsible for the success of language tags. The following people (in alphabetical order by family name) contributed to this document: Harald Alvestrand, Jeremy Carroll, John Cowan, Martin Duerst, Frank Ellermann, Doug Ewell, Marion Gunn, Kent Karlsson, Ira McDonald, M. Patton, Randy Presuhn, Eric van der Poel, and many, many others. Very special thanks must go to Harald Tveit Alvestrand, who originated RFCs 1766 and 3066, and without whom this document would not have been possible. For this particular document, John Cowan originated the scheme described in Section 3.2.3. Mark Davis originated the scheme described in the Section 3.3. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 27] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 Authors' Addresses Addison Phillips (editor) Quest Software Email: addison dot phillips at quest dot com Mark Davis (editor) IBM Email: mark dot davis at ibm dot com Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 28] =0C Internet-Draft ltru-matching November 2005 Intellectual Property Statement The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in this document or the extent to which any license under such rights might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has made any independent effort to identify any such rights. Information on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be found in BCP 78 and BCP 79. Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any assurances of licenses to be made available, or the result of an attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the use of such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR repository at http://www.ietf.org/ipr. The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement this standard. Please address the information to the IETF at ietf-ipr@ietf.org. Disclaimer of Validity This document and the information contained herein are provided on an "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY AND THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Copyright Statement Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors retain all their rights. Acknowledgment Funding for the RFC Editor function is currently provided by the Internet Society. Phillips & Davis Expires May 22, 2006 [Page 29] =0C --==========C26B586CE011E711345A==========-- --==========14969532DDBF57FCEEEF========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; size=194 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDlULSOMj+2+WY0F4RAvQMAKCGhgFdgnLWSWSAayuaehYSYYEfowCfZ0Zy OCehPr7o13aQ6UycmbX0RC0= =680C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========14969532DDBF57FCEEEF==========-- --===============0063986843== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0063986843==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 05:45:07 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaJn-0005bK-AS; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:07 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaJl-0005aE-RC for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA07330 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:44:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjafD-0003p0-0s for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 06:07:16 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB6AiWu21715; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:44:32 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 10b8_491b887c_6645_11da_8b81_00304811fd80; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:44:31 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB6AhVNu029378; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:43:57 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206101508.0584bc50@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 10:15:19 +0900 To: Mark Davis From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol In-Reply-To: <439480A7.5070502@icu-project.org> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20051205180843.070acd50@localhost> <439480A7.5070502@icu-project.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 03:02 05/12/06, Mark Davis wrote: >I think that's a reasonable goal. I agree that the wording needs a bit of adjustment; in particular, I'd like to add a conformance requirement than any such option (at whatever level) be precisely specified. Good point. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 05:45:07 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaJn-0005bg-ET; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:07 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaJm-0005aU-6E for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:06 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA07337 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:44:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjafF-0003pN-AC for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 06:07:18 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB6Aiiu21730; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:44:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 1149_5008f8d6_6645_11da_89bb_00304811fd80; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:44:43 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB6AhVO0029378; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:44:18 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206150905.0708ab80@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:14:59 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 02:43 05/12/06, Addison Phillips wrote: >I think this is a good way to solve this set of comments. The problem here >is that there a good bit of text already in place that talks about >"specification, protocols, or applications" in Section 1 and these repeat a >good bit of your proposed text. Sorry I missed that. >I propose instead to modify the paragraphs >in question to say: > >-- >Given a set of language identifiers, such as those defined in target="RFC3066bis" />, various mechanisms can be envisioned for performing >language negotiation and tag matching. > >This document defines several mechanisms for matching, selecting, or >filtering content whose natural language is identified using Language Tags >, as well as the syntax (called a "language >range") associated with each of these mechanisms for specifying the user's >language preferences. Can we turn this around, and mention the syntax first, and then the matching mechanisms, to have this in document order? Also, should we change 'selecting' to 'lookup' to allign terminology? >Applications, protocols, or specifications will have >varying needs and requirements that affect the choice of a suitable >mechanism. Depending on the matching scheme, We use 'mechanism' twice above, and now change to 'scheme', which makes it unclear whether these are the same or not. Either use 'scheme' throughout, or use a phare such as "matching mechanism, hereafter called matching scheme". >there are various options left to Can we change "left to" to "for selection by", or something similar that is more active in nature? (same again below) Regards, Martin. >the implementation. This means that the option is left to the protocol >if the matching scheme is used by a protocol, or directly by the >application in case there is no >protocol. If there is a protocol, the protocol might specify some options, >while leaving others open to implementers of that protocol. > >-- > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Martin Duerst >> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 1:22 AM >> To: LTRU Working Group >> Subject: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol >> >> [co-chair hat off] >> >> I have earlier raised an issue about the words >> 'application' and 'protocol'. I don't think >> I talked about 'implementation' then, but that >> word is also all over the place, without ever >> being clearly grounded. >> >> I propose that we add an explanation somewhere >> at the end of section 1. The following text is >> a first attempt, I'm sure it can be improved: >> >> The matching schemes defined in this document can >> be used by (Internet) protocols, or, in cases where >> there is no protocol, directly by applications. >> Depending on the matching scheme, there are >> various options left to the implementation. >> This means that the option is left to the protocol >> if the matching scheme is used by a protocol, or >> directly by the application in case there is no >> protocol. If there is a protocol, the protocol may >> select some options, and my leave others open >> to implementers of that protocol. >> >> Not sure the text above is very good, but I hope you >> at least get the idea I wanted to put out. >> >> Regards, Martin. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 05:45:36 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaKG-0005ik-HK; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaKE-0005gM-IS for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA07424 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejaff-0003qp-BS for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 06:07:46 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB6AjKu21959 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:45:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 1135_65df7310_6645_11da_85c6_00304811fd80; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:45:20 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB6AhVO8029378 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:44:55 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206173309.04a77cc0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:39:58 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] scored filtering and supress script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [co-chair hat off] This is a proposal that both Doug and I liked, and that I don't understand why it shouldn't work, so I'm bringing it up again here. Doug also pointed out that we need have the necessary information anyway. For scored filtering, I propose to exand both ranges and tags with suppress-script. This means that de-DE becomes de-Latn-DE, and thus doesn't match de-Brai-DE, in contrast to de-*-DE, which of course would match de-Brai-DE. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 05:45:38 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaKI-0005jw-70; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:38 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaKE-0005gN-KO for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA07425 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejafg-0003qu-Go for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 06:07:46 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB6AjKu21955; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:45:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 5372_65c45d6e_6645_11da_8bc6_0030482533a1; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:45:20 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB6AhVO6029378; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:44:54 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206154056.04a0dc40@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:23:10 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 1) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7268a2980febc47a9fa732aba2b737ba Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hello Addison, Many thanks for your speedy work. Some comments below: (all the stuff I cut out is okay with me) At 04:58 05/12/06, Addison Phillips wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> Martin Duerst >> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 2:13 AM >> [chair hat off] >> These are my editorial comments on draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07. >> Some may be duplicates of things already fixed. >> >> General: >> Some of the examples appear as "Figures". But the numbers are >> not consecutive. None of the examples are really figures, and >> they are all completely integrated into the text, so I propose >> no not use any 'figure' stuff. (things might look slightly >> different in the HTML version, but it's the ASCII version >> that ultimately counts) Did you do anything about this? All the other items at least say 'DONE'. >> Section 1, End: Please given a short overview over the document. >[Addison Phillips] > >Uh... okay. I added: > >-- >This document is divided into three main sections. The first section >described language ranges, which are used to specify a user's preferences. >The second describes different mechanisms for matching ranges to content. >The third main section deals with various considerations that apply to >using the mechanisms described in this document. >-- Nice, except for the fact that what you call 'first section' is Section 2, and so on. Can you change that as follows? The rest of this document is divided into three main sections. Section 2 describes language ranges, which are used to specify a user's preferences. Section 3 describes different mechanisms for matching ranges to content. Section 4 deals with various considerations that apply to using the mechanisms described in this document. (please note that I also changed one 'described' to 'describes') >> Section 2, first para, last sentence: "These": It's not clear >> what "These" refers to. >[Addison Phillips] > >Changed to read: > >-- >For example, HTTP/1.1 describes one such >mechanism in its discussion of the Accept-Language header (Section 14.4), >which is used when selecting content from servers based on the language of >that content. >-- Looks fine. >> - Refers to RFC 2616 for 'language-tag'. We should say that this >> is equivalent (in whatever way it is, probably just well-formed) >> to a language-tag from RFC3066bis. >[Addison Phillips] > >It actually refers to language tags defined by RFC 3066. We could reference >RFC 3066 instead. Notice that language ranges are not required to be either >well-formed or valid! There should probably be a health warning for invalid >or not-well-formed ones.... Okay, yes, please say so. Looking at the original text again, I'd probably just say something very short like: "A Language Range is defined by the following ABNF" before the ABNF, and then after the ABNF mention that this is the same as in HTTP and RFC 3066, but different [details here] from RFC 3066bis. On an aside, why is RFC 2616 normative? We have a complete definition of language-range, so we don't need it normative here. And I don't remember any other place where it is normative. >> - last paragraph: We have two MAYs here. These get combined with >> the MAYs in the various matching scheme sections. And then this >> gets combined with the implementation/protocol/application issue. >> It may be worth checking whether the various matching sections >> do not already cover, in one way or another, the MAYs in this >> section, and if they do so almost but not quite, whether we >> could not fix it. >[Addison Phillips] > >I don't think we can remove these MAYs: they define the syntax. Not exactly. Syntax just says which things are extended language ranges, and which are not. So we should just say that en-US and en-*-US are extended language ranges. The semantics of these ranges, although to some extent defined in section 2, is really only fully clear from section 3. If it turns out that under all (relevant) schemes, with all options, en-US and en-*-US are indeed equivalent, we should say this directly. If they are not equivalent for all schemes/options, then we better remove these MAYs. >> - A lot of the advice in this section is dependent on which >> matching scheme is used. It should therefore be moved to >> section 4. >[Addison Phillips] > >"It" meaning the section? Or the advice? The section, with the advice in it, or the advice, with the section it is in, whichever you prefer :-). >> - 3rd para: 'users SHOULD avoid using these subtags': True >> for filtering, wrong for lookup. Overall, we should be >> clearer and say that for filtering, use the shortest >> possible tags, or add shorter tags as an alternative to >> longer ones [the text from the HTTP spec about adding 'en' >> if you have 'en-GB' could be reused], but for lookup, >> use longest possible tags to make sure you get your >> preferred selection if it is available. >[Addison Phillips] > >Users really should avoid extensions when doing lookup too. Can you explain why? They don't hurt at all, or do they? >I agree about the second point, though. I need to mull over text (please >suggest some and a location?) I suggested text from http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.4: Note: When making the choice of linguistic preference available to the user, we remind implementors of the fact that users are not familiar with the details of language matching as described above, and should provide appropriate guidance. As an example, users might assume that on selecting "en-gb", they will be served any kind of English document if British English is not available. A user agent might suggest in such a case to add "en" to get the best matching behavior. This doesn't exactly fit the viewpoint that our document takes, so here's a very drafty rewrite. For filtering, users should use the shortest applicable language range, or should add shorter language ranges to a language priority list after longer language ranges if they want to express their priorities while also accessing more general content. As an example, somebody who prefers British English, in addition to "en-gb" should add "en" to their language priority list to make sure English documents are found even if British English isn't available. As for location, after the place we talk about using longer tags for lookup should work, or maybe even before. >> - 4th para: Having a numbered list here doesn't make sense, >> it looks like just a continuation of the first three >> paragraphs. >[Addison Phillips] > >Very well. Changed to symbols. Previously we used numbers to make things >easier to reference... No, what I meant is that it's strange to have a series of paragraphs containing advice, and then suddenly a few of them are numbered, or bulleted, or whatever. Or in other words, in "Coosing a Language Range", I don't understand why some parts are simple paragraphs, and others are part of a list. >> - 4th para, 1.: "Implementations ... SHOULD ...": this >> belongs into the relevant matching scheme sections, >> not in the section about user advice. Same for the >> rest of the numbered list. >[Addison Phillips] > >Good point. Rewrote the bullet items here to make them applicable to users. >Then inserted this into the section on lookup: > >-- >Implementations SHOULD ignore extensions and unrecognized private-use >subtags when performing lookup, since these subtags are usually orthogonal >to the user's request. I still don't see why we need to say that. Longer tags don't hurt lookup, and if the user put some subtags there, it's probably because they mean it. Or did I get something wrong here? >> - numbered list, 3.: "using either basic or extended language >> ranges": I haven't found an option 'basic range only' >> in Scored Filtering. If there is, it wouldn't make >> sense to me, actually. So I propose we remove this >> phrase, or change it to "using extended langugage ranges". >[Addison Phillips] > >This might not have occurred to anyone else, but (well-formed, which is a >bit of a presumption) basic language ranges are already extended ranges Yes. Maybe the best thing to do is to say so in the section on extended ranges? Regards, Martin. >and >thus can be used in scored matching quite easily. Hence the text here. But >I changed it. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 05:45:38 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaKI-0005kK-Bd; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:38 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaKF-0005h1-4d for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA07431 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejaff-0003qq-FC for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 06:07:46 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB6AjLu21961 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:45:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 53dd_65ed2a5a_6645_11da_9d43_0030482533a1; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:45:20 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB6AhVOA029378 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:44:55 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206175045.04a70480@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:00:32 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Scored Filtering: Expansion of tags and ranges X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Why do we need to make distinctions between ranges and tags, and between internal and trailing components in ranges? It seems it would all be the same if every missing piece (after suppress-script expansion, see separate mail) were converted into a '*'. And it would simplify the explanation considerably. Thinking about it a bit more, there are examples where this wouldn't work. Take tag: de-DE-1996, expanded: (de, *, DE, 1996) range: de-DE, expanded: (de, *, DE, "") For the last field, neither are they identical, nor is one of them "*", so we would get a mismatch, with distance 1. It's very unclear to me why we should get 1 here, and 0 in the reverse case. In filtering, shorter ranges are supposed to match longer tags, not the other way round. So I think this should be changed to work the other way round. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 05:46:00 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaKd-0005st-TQ; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjaKc-0005rp-Dz for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:45:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA07566 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejag5-0003t5-LD for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 06:08:10 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB6Ajlu21996 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:45:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 11a6_75bca604_6645_11da_8b4d_00304811fd80; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:45:47 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB6AhVOE029378 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:45:21 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206162457.04a123d0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:58:56 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [co-chair hat off] and on we go... 3.1 Choosing a Type of Matching, continued. - third-to-last para: I find the HTTP example problematic. It somehow suggests that is what HTTP says. As Mark has explained, it is close to what servers do, but not what the spec says. It also ignores the possibility of "300 Multiple Choices" responses (see http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.html#sec10.3.1) I'm not exactly sure what to do, probably the best thing is to find another example. - second-to-last para: 'examine the values': What exactly does that mean? Maybe change to something like "don't need any additional information about any specific subtags". - dito: "Language Registry Subtag": Please provide a reference (to draft-initial, I guess) - dito, last sentence: simplify to "This simplifies and speeds up implementations." (you can add 'greatly' if you want to keep it) - last para: I think this paragraph should be moved to section 4. 3.2 Filtering - 1st para: 'arbitrary number' -> 'arbitrarily large number' ? - 2nd para: '_least_ specific': please add that it is therefore shortest - third bullet: 'in specific range' -> 'in a specific range'; also, 'range of languages' is similar (but not the same as) 'language range' (the former being semantics, the later syntax), so maybe a different word from 'range' is better. - 3rd last para: 'would put ... priority order' -> 'would order the results [by priority]' ? - last para: 'each language tag to a language range': unclear why 'each' on one side, but 'a' on the other side, suggest to use 'a' for both - dito: distance indicated -> distance indicates - dito, last sentence: 'or it can': what does 'it' refer to? maybe 'implementations', but then numbers don't match 3.2.1 Filtering with Basic ... - There is nothing explaining what happens with language priority lists. 3.2.2 Filtering with Extended ... - 1st para: 'Extended Range Matching scheme': is that the terminology we use? The term 'basic matching' is also used in this paragraph, but lower case. - dito: we should first describe how a single extended language range matches, and only then go to describe how language priority lists are dealt with. 3.2.3 Scored Filtering - 1st para: 'beneficial' -> 'useful' (beneficial sounds a bit too much like we're trying to save the world) - 2nd para: 'must be canonicalized' -> 'MUST ...' ? - 3rd para: 'language element': I checked RFC 3066bis, and didn't find 'element' at all. Please allign terminology. - 4th para: 'language-tag' -> 'language tag' - dito: Thus a pattern ...: merge with following list. (if not, then at least change 'a pattern' to 'the pattern') - "Examples of various tag's distances": "tag's" -> "tags'" - "might give a small distance to the difference closely related" -> "might give a small distance to closely related" - The paragraph with that sentence, and the examples following, seem to turn up in slightly different form in other places. Please check if it doesn't make sense to move that topic to a general place. - Region: UM: add a parenthesis at the end of that line 3.3 Lookup - General: This is a long section, I propose to create some subsections, as follows: - one for the general stuff at the start - one for the discussion of priority lists (in -07 starting just before the end of page 15) - one for extended language ranges (after what's Figure 8 in -07) - 1st para: talk about single language ranges only here, about priority lists later. - "only the closest matching item ...": Add something to say that it's returned only if it is less specific. - "Selection of a graphic containing text": I don't like this example, because it is bad accessibility practice. - after bullet list: "in the Lookup scheme": probably better lower-case. - same para: 'would progressively search': Change to "progressively searches" - There are about 6 cases in the draft where 'zh' turned into 'z.', please change back. - "as with xml:lang in the XML specification": - This may be understood to mean use of xml:lang in the specification itself. Please clarify. - A reference to the XML spec should be added non-normatively. More to follow tomorrow. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 07:51:30 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjcI6-0001wG-2c; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:51:30 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjcI4-0001wA-N6 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:51:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA23082 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 07:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjcdZ-0000Li-IV for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:13:41 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BAA8259709; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:50:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18460-05; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:50:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.160] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7027D2596BF; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:50:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:53:30 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Martin Duerst , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] scored filtering and supress script Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206173309.04a77cc0@localhost> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206173309.04a77cc0@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --On tirsdag, desember 06, 2005 17:39:58 +0900 Martin Duerst wrote: > [co-chair hat off] > This is a proposal that both Doug and I liked, and that > I don't understand why it shouldn't work, so I'm bringing > it up again here. Doug also pointed out that we need > have the necessary information anyway. > > For scored filtering, I propose to exand both ranges > and tags with suppress-script. This means that > de-DE becomes de-Latn-DE, and thus doesn't match > de-Brai-DE, in contrast to de-*-DE, which of course > would match de-Brai-DE. This of course demands access to the registry, and the results will vary based on which date the registry was incorporated/consulted. But since this is already implicit in section 3.2.3: First both the extended language range and the language tags to be matched to it must be canonicalized by mapping grandfathered and obsolete tags into modern equivalents. I see this as a reasonable thing to do. Note: draft-ietf-ltru-initial-06 has 125 "Suppress-Script" tags, and 481 entries with "Type: Language". It's possible that there'll be a number of updates requested if this proves popular and useful. Harald _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 09:36:26 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejdve-0002Bz-8L; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:36:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejdvc-0002Bl-Ua for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:36:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA06834 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:35:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjeH7-0004Dl-NE for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:58:38 -0500 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jB6EaHTx005660; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:36:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:36:15 -0500 From: "John.Cowan" To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] scored filtering and supress script Message-ID: <20051206143615.GA5020@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206173309.04a77cc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206173309.04a77cc0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst scripsit: > For scored filtering, I propose to exand both ranges > and tags with suppress-script. This means that > de-DE becomes de-Latn-DE, and thus doesn't match > de-Brai-DE, in contrast to de-*-DE, which of course > would match de-Brai-DE. +1 -- But you, Wormtongue, you have done what you could for your true master. Some reward you have earned at least. Yet Saruman is apt to overlook his bargains. I should advise you to go quickly and remind him, lest he forget your faithful service. --Gandalf John Cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 11:42:59 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejfu7-0006UP-L5; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:42:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejfu6-0006Su-Vu for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:42:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21719 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 11:42:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjgFY-0000I2-IR for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:05:09 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 6 Dec 2005 08:42:35 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 08:42:38 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 Thread-Index: AcX6OhXfbNlXKwyTSLOrdQxZwGR9EgASE6zg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2005 16:42:35.0140 (UTC) FILETIME=[0F6DAC40:01C5FA84] X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 11:54:47 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejg5X-00029v-Tc; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:54:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejg5W-00029n-Nr for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:54:47 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23356 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 11:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeke.toscano.org ([69.31.8.124] helo=zeke.ecotroph.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjgR2-0000m0-7F for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:17:01 -0500 Received: from dul1shollenbl1 ([::ffff:216.168.239.87]) (AUTH: LOGIN sah, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) by zeke.ecotroph.net with esmtp; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:54:09 -0500 id 01588001.4395C231.00002B48 From: "Scott Hollenbeck" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" Subject: RE: [Ltru] Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 11:54:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-Index: AcX6OhXfbNlXKwyTSLOrdQxZwGR9EgASE6zgAADABnA= Message-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison.phillips@quest.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 11:43 AM > To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of > > Harald Tveit Alvestrand > > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:51 PM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: [Ltru] Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 [snip] > > - The spec needs to make up its mind about whether it's > specifying an > > algorithm for the IETF standards track or giving a bunch of > useful advice > > to people writing language tag matching functions. If it's > the former, > > EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of "an implementation MAY decide > to...", where that > > can affect the returned result, needs to be removed from > the specification. > [Addison Phillips] > > I agree kind-of. If this document were to go on the STD > track, then I completely agree. But as an editor I received > instructions immediately following the draft-registry period > (off-list) that we could not make that determination. If we > are to change to the STD track (which I have no objection to) > then various document changes would need to be incorporated > to support that. The group is going to have to think about this and produce a recommendation before the document is submitted for AD and IESG evaluation. The IESG will ultimately decide if that recommendation is acceptable, but the requested publication status usually comes from the working group. -Scott- _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 11:59:10 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejg9m-0003ZF-Jw; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:59:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejg9l-0003Uz-6N for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:59:09 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23950 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 11:58:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjgVI-000122-2s for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:21:24 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 6 Dec 2005 08:58:59 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 08:58:56 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol Thread-Index: AcX6UhW9oRWgTKAiQJmfRE1ivrGCgAAMtf3Q From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2005 16:58:59.0509 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A287650:01C5FA86] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1178136430==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1178136430== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U2VlIGJlbG93Lg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVj dCwgUXVlc3QgU29mdHdhcmUNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVy ZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4gDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0t LS0NCj4gRnJvbTogTWFydGluIER1ZXJzdCBbbWFpbHRvOmR1ZXJzdEBpdC5hb3lhbWEuYWMuanBd DQo+IFNlbnQ6IE1vbmRheSwgRGVjZW1iZXIgMDUsIDIwMDUgMTA6MTUgUE0NCj4gVG86IEFkZGlz b24gUGhpbGxpcHM7IExUUlUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cA0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTogW0x0cnVdIGlt cGxlbWVudGF0aW9uLCBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbiwgcHJvdG9jb2wNCj4gDQo+IEF0IDAyOjQzIDA1LzEy LzA2LCBBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzIHdyb3RlOg0KPiAgPkkgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyBpcyBhIGdvb2Qg d2F5IHRvIHNvbHZlIHRoaXMgc2V0IG9mIGNvbW1lbnRzLiBUaGUgcHJvYmxlbQ0KPiBoZXJlDQo+ 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12:14:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjgOF-00079k-P7 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:14:09 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26302 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejgjm-0001bw-AI for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:36:22 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C803E259722; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 18:13:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25303-07; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 18:13:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.160] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A3F25971D; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 18:13:15 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:16:10 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Addison Phillips , LTRU Working Group Subject: Tag lookup redefinition (RE: [Ltru] Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (breaking the stuff apart into separate threads - we seem to agree on the first one, so ignoring that) --On tirsdag, desember 06, 2005 08:42:38 -0800 Addison Phillips wrote: >> - The lookup function, as designed, is broken. It introduces truncation >> of language tags outside of the user's control, and it prefers truncated >> versions of early tags in a LPL to full versions of later ones. > [Addison Phillips] > > I'm not sure I understand what you think is broken here. Lookup searches > for content based on the idea that prefixes are mutually intelligible. It > merely reverses which piece (the tag or the range) is looked at as the > prefix. > [Addison Phillips] I'm not sure I understand what you think is broken here. Lookup searches for content based on the idea that prefixes are mutually intelligible. It merely reverses which piece (the tag or the range) is looked at as the prefix. This may be "broken" from your point of view, but it is, de facto, how many systems actually work. My "quarrel", if you can call it that, with Mark is that the text is starting to diverge from the way that these mechanisms are actually implemented, which makes me nervous. de facto, how > many systems actually work. My "quarrel", if you can call it that, with > Mark is that the text is starting to diverge from the way that these > mechanisms are actually implemented, which makes me nervous. I think that it's broken in two ways. First: If the language range in a lookup is: zh-Hant, en-GB and the available objects for matching have tags: zh-Hant-TW en-GB zh-Hans-CN zh then returning an object labelled "zh-Hant-TW" is consistent with user expectations. Matching an object labelled "zh" is not - and that is what the current algorithm of "truncate first, move on later" will produce. Second: If the language range in a lookup is: zh-Hant, en, zh-Hans and the available objects for matching have tags: en-GB zh-Hans then returning an object labelled "en-GB" is consistent with user expectations, and returning an object labelled "zh-Hans" is not - and that is what the current algorithm of "truncate from the language range, not the language tag" will produce. WRT running code: If you have reference to source-available implementations, I'd like to look at what they actually do - but it would be no surprise to find that they behave in ways that I would never WANT software to behave in certain situations. That's why we discuss.... Harald _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 12:25:28 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjgZE-0006k6-25; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:25:28 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjgZD-0006jz-0o for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:25:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27733 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejgui-000210-5e for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:47:42 -0500 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB6HP6u3019764; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:25:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:27:43 -0800 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'John.Cowan'" , Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] scored filtering and supress script Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:27:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org +1 Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > John.Cowan > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 9:36 AM > To: Martin Duerst > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] scored filtering and supress script > > > Martin Duerst scripsit: > > > For scored filtering, I propose to exand both ranges > > and tags with suppress-script. This means that > > de-DE becomes de-Latn-DE, and thus doesn't match > > de-Brai-DE, in contrast to de-*-DE, which of course > > would match de-Brai-DE. > > +1 > > -- > But you, Wormtongue, you have done what you could for your > true master. Some > reward you have earned at least. Yet Saruman is apt to > overlook his bargains. > I should advise you to go quickly and remind him, lest he > forget your faithful > service. --Gandalf John Cowan > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 12:33:00 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjggW-0001T8-1I; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:33:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjggU-0001Sq-QY for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:32:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA28598 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejh21-0002Hc-57 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:55:14 -0500 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB6HWgTS020193; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:35:20 -0800 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , Martin Duerst , LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:35:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > > See below. > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:15 PM > > To: Addison Phillips; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol > > [snip] > > At 02:43 05/12/06, Addison Phillips wrote: > > We use 'mechanism' twice above, and now change to 'scheme', > which makes > > it unclear whether these are the same or not. Either use 'scheme' > > throughout, or use a phare such as "matching mechanism, hereafter > > called matching scheme". > [Addison Phillips] > > I changed (as noted above) to use scheme again. I don't > really like the connotations of the English word "scheme", > which invokes a sense of melodrama for me, but what the heck. I much prefer using 'matching method' (not mechanism). 'Scheme' is widely confused with 'schema' and both are used too loosely in standards. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 12:38:02 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjglO-0003Ai-Qe; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:38:02 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjglO-0003Ad-Eh for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:38:02 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29201 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvmbxw02.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.quest.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejh6r-0002SL-Sy for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:00:17 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw02.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:37:42 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Scored Filtering: Expansion of tags and ranges Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:37:32 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Scored Filtering: Expansion of tags and ranges Thread-Index: AcX6Up8gGZYNTw0oQlqc+UOzu4okEwAN/TxA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2005 17:37:42.0516 (UTC) FILETIME=[C2C73340:01C5FA8B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0029451733==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 12:49:45 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejgwj-000826-SZ; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:49:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejgwi-000821-CE for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:49:44 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00408 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjhID-0002q5-KN for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:12:00 -0500 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jB6HnNdA011441; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:49:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:49:21 -0500 From: "John.Cowan" To: Scott Hollenbeck Subject: Re: [Ltru] Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 Message-ID: <20051206174921.GC5020@NYCMJCOWA2> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Scott Hollenbeck scripsit: > The group is going to have to think about this and produce a recommendation > before the document is submitted for AD and IESG evaluation. The IESG will > ultimately decide if that recommendation is acceptable, but the requested > publication status usually comes from the working group. My understanding (which may be out of date) was that the whole point of splitting RFC 3066 into registration and matching drafts was that matching was unsuitable for a BCP. I didn't see why, since the matching parts of 3066 basically said "This is how 2616 does it", but I wasn't going to argue with the PTB. Then there was talk of registration and matching jointly representing BCP 47. As I read the matching draft, it says what protocols/implementations MUST do. That smells like a standards-track RFC to me. Comments? -- Yes, chili in the eye is bad, but so is your John Cowan ear. However, I would suggest you wash your jcowan@reutershealth.com hands thoroughly before going to the toilet. http://www.reutershealth.com --gadicath http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 12:54:03 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejh0t-0000Ob-MC; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:54:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejh0s-0000OW-MW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:54:02 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00889 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjhMP-0002yK-P5 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:16:18 -0500 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jB6HrxAv011472; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:53:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:53:59 -0500 From: "John.Cowan" To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol Message-ID: <20051206175359.GD5020@NYCMJCOWA2> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > I changed (as noted above) to use scheme again. I don't really like > the connotations of the English word "scheme", which invokes a sense > of melodrama for me, but what the heck. That's en-us. In en-gb, "scheme" just means "plan", with no sense of the underhanded. The British government is constantly announcing this, that, or the other "scheme". -- There is / One art John Cowan No more / No less http://www.reutershealth.com To do / All things http://www.ccil.org/~cowan With art- / Lessness -- Piet Hein _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 12:57:36 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejh4K-0002sJ-LK; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:57:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejh4J-0002s8-R9 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:57:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01163 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:56:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjhPr-00035d-NH for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:19:51 -0500 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jB6HvYdW011495; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:57:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:57:34 -0500 From: "John.Cowan" To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Scored Filtering: Expansion of tags and ranges Message-ID: <20051206175734.GE5020@NYCMJCOWA2> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > In other words, is range "de-DE" equivalent to tag "de-Brai-DE"? Or is it just a "pretty good" match? Since you are not allowed to say "de-Latn-DE" thanks to the Suppress-script setting, we have to interpret "de-DE" as *meaning* "de-Latn-DE", in which case "de-Brai-DE" is a match in language only, same as "az-Cyrl" vs. "az-Arab". -- John Cowan www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com The Penguin shall hunt and devour all that is crufty, gnarly and bogacious; all code which wriggles like spaghetti, or is infested with blighting creatures, or is bound by grave and perilous Licences shall it capture. And in capturing shall it replicate, and in replicating shall it document, and in documentation shall it bring freedom, serenity and most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein. --Gospel of Tux _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 13:41:12 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjhkW-000405-09; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:41:12 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjhkU-0003xa-Na for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:41:10 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06553 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:40:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eji5y-0004mJ-AJ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:03:24 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:40:52 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:40:35 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: harald's comments... Thread-Index: AcX6lIuPKv0+xYTHSGmeOc05q0dsug== From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2005 18:40:52.0392 (UTC) FILETIME=[95B86280:01C5FA94] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Subject: [Ltru] harald's comments... 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(Exim 4.32) id 1Ejj2E-00056d-Uu for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:03:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15456 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjjNh-0007bP-7k for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:25:47 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:03:12 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 1) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:03:09 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 1) Thread-Index: AcX6Uiiv9BA837nXSJ6vsQkubOd/zAANEFPQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2005 20:03:12.0641 (UTC) FILETIME=[16568F10:01C5FAA0] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 16c9da4896bf5539ae3547c6c25f06a0 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0679152421==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0679152421== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Q29tbWVudHMgZm9sbG93Li4uDQoNCkFkZGlzb24gUC4gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24g QXJjaGl0ZWN0LCBRdWVzdCBTb2Z0d2FyZQ0KDQpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3Qg YSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLiANCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1l c3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBNYXJ0aW4gRHVlcnN0IFttYWlsdG86ZHVlcnN0QGl0LmFveWFt 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esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejk10-0004xs-W5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:06:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA22381 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:05:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjkMX-0001RJ-OL for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:28:40 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:06:05 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:06:05 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) Thread-Index: AcX6UnmfJA7HVi7LSEePYJi87nrGhwATaQuw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2005 21:06:05.0383 (UTC) FILETIME=[DF114D70:01C5FAA8] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 848ed35f2a4fc0638fa89629cb640f48 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0312959283==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0312959283== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Q29tbWVudHMgZm9sbG93Lg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFy Y2hpdGVjdCwgUXVlc3QgU29mdHdhcmUNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEg ZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4gDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNz YWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3Vu 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_______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0312959283==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 06 23:58:55 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjrOJ-0006CM-E8; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:58:55 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjrOH-0006CH-Uj for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:58:54 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA08210 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2005 23:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejrjt-0007lz-TH for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:21:15 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458F0259722; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 05:58:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17476-02; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 05:57:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFAC259726; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 05:57:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:46:47 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Addison Phillips , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] harald's comments... Message-ID: <722CAC080F5973BD848DC237@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1184557696==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1184557696== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========8BBC56B128B4C2E04784==========" --==========8BBC56B128B4C2E04784========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --On 6. desember 2005 10:40 -0800 Addison Phillips=20 wrote: > New editor's copy of draft-08 is on my website. It is getting really hard > to find thing, since several sections have been moved. I suggest we > update to draft-08 SOON. publish early, publish often. Still 91 versions to go until the 2-digit=20 field overflows! --==========8BBC56B128B4C2E04784========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDlhTYOMj+2+WY0F4RAjZRAKD8ASSdP8DWVldWAVvAuTPl2KiqfwCgoxhZ bqvIgKh+mgPGxA8js+xxeTM= =iB5J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========8BBC56B128B4C2E04784==========-- --===============1184557696== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1184557696==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 00:32:54 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjrvC-0008BX-5C; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:32:54 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjrvA-00089X-If for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:32:52 -0500 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net (mta13.adelphia.net [68.168.78.44]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11666 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:32:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from DGBP7M81 ([69.162.95.23]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20051207053220.RFFS12926.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:32:20 -0500 Message-ID: <00ca01c5faef$991e6180$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20051206170852.RIGO30003.edge6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:32:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: scored filtering and supress script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Note: draft-ietf-ltru-initial-06 has 125 "Suppress-Script" tags, and > 481 entries with "Type: Language". It's possible that there'll be a > number of updates requested if this proves popular and useful. I favor registering as many of these (on ietf-languages) as possible that are non-controversial, to remove any real or imagined arbitrariness. I'm sure I can pick out a language in a matter of seconds that should have an SS and doesn't... ah, here's one, "fil" for Filipino. Should be Latn. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California, USA http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 00:34:47 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejrx1-0008Lo-MN; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:34:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejrwz-0008Lf-QM for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:34:46 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11820 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:33:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejrvb-0003ek-KX for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:33:19 +0100 Received: from pd9fba955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.251.169.85]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:33:19 +0100 Received: from nobody by pd9fba955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:33:19 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:31:19 +0100 Organization: Lines: 22 Message-ID: <439673A7.5C2A@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pd9fba955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: >> dito: "Language Registry Subtag": Please provide a reference >> (to draft-initial, I guess) > We can't really reference draft-initial. You could (informative reference), but as placeholder for the "real" registry it's a dubious idea. > How about we reference where it is defined, i.e. RFC 3066bis > (draft-registry), Section 3? Or use the "real" IANA URL (TBD) of the tag registry, it will exist before the matching draft gets an RFC number. Ideally it will be . It's ready when the "IANA" flag in the queue will be removed: http://www.rfc-editor.org/queue.html#draft-ietf-ltru-registry Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 00:42:55 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejs4t-0002RU-Se; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:42:55 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejs4s-0002RM-PG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:42:54 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA12953 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:42:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from DGBP7M81 ([69.162.95.23]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20051207054222.HIWQ1186.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:42:22 -0500 Message-ID: <00d401c5faf1$0037dad0$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20051206104816.EQCB27152.aamta2.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:42:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Michael Everson Subject: [Ltru] Re: editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > 3.1 Choosing a Type of Matching, continued. > ... > - dito: "Language Registry Subtag": Please provide a reference > (to draft-initial, I guess) Any reference to the registry per se had better not contain a pointer to draft-initial. That document is most emphatically not the registry itself (and it says so), and it will be out of date almost immediately upon publication, as some of us will be leaning on the Reviewer to make six ISO 639-based additions and changes as soon as the registry becomes available. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California, USA http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 00:50:55 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjsCc-0004CD-Vx; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:50:55 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjsCa-0004C4-Tt for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:50:53 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13655 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EjsBB-0007aN-63 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:49:25 +0100 Received: from pd9fba955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.251.169.85]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:49:25 +0100 Received: from nobody by pd9fba955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:49:25 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:48:19 +0100 Organization: Lines: 6 Message-ID: <439677A3.1E08@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20051206174921.GC5020@NYCMJCOWA2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pd9fba955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John.Cowan wrote: > That smells like a standards-track RFC to me. Comments? +1 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 01:54:26 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjtC6-00049P-42; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 01:54:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjtBt-00045k-Vw for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 01:54:24 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA21712 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 01:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EjtAi-0007FK-B8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:53:00 +0100 Received: from pd9fba955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.251.169.85]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:53:00 +0100 Received: from nobody by pd9fba955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:53:00 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:50:54 +0100 Organization: Lines: 26 Message-ID: <4396864E.79AE@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pd9fba955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: >> HTA: ABNF error. Case insensitivty means that the two >> alternatives are equal. > Comment: Gee... now you tell us :-). This is a direct > quote from 3066bis. 02-21: 03-17: 06-14: 06-15: 06-15: 08-09: Well, we discussed it, didn't we ? > I suggest we update to draft-08 SOON. Let Martin and Harald finish their round with draft -07. I'm lazy and wait for -08. Nobody needs the matching stuff soon: When the registry exists it will take some time to register missing Suppress-Scripts, and to add the tags on Doug's watch list (stuff introduced after date-B = 2005-10-16). Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 06:36:12 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejxam-0002D8-PL; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:12 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejxak-0002Al-Ow for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:10 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA22159 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjxwP-0004Ag-9C for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:58:34 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB7BZYu24967; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:35:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 74b0_94cdb738_6715_11da_81b2_0030482533a1; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:35:34 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB7BYDob016107; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:35:03 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207153144.06d326f0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:33:46 +0900 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] scored filtering and supress script In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20051206173309.04a77cc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 21:53 05/12/06, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > >--On tirsdag, desember 06, 2005 17:39:58 +0900 Martin Duerst wrote: > >> [co-chair hat off] >> This is a proposal that both Doug and I liked, and that >> I don't understand why it shouldn't work, so I'm bringing >> it up again here. Doug also pointed out that we need >> have the necessary information anyway. >> >> For scored filtering, I propose to exand both ranges >> and tags with suppress-script. This means that >> de-DE becomes de-Latn-DE, and thus doesn't match >> de-Brai-DE, in contrast to de-*-DE, which of course >> would match de-Brai-DE. > >This of course demands access to the registry, and the results will vary based on which date the registry was incorporated/consulted. >But since this is already implicit in section 3.2.3: Yes, exactly. This is what I meant when I wrote "Doug also pointed out that we need have the necessary information anyway." above. > First both the extended language range and the language tags to be > matched to it must be canonicalized by mapping grandfathered and > obsolete tags into modern equivalents. > >I see this as a reasonable thing to do. >Note: draft-ietf-ltru-initial-06 has 125 "Suppress-Script" tags, and 481 entries with "Type: Language". It's possible that there'll be a number of updates requested if this proves popular and useful. Yes indeed. There are a lot of languages that in practice are written only or highly predominantly with one script, but do not yet have the appropriate "Suppress-Script" information. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 06:36:23 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejxax-0002IO-0i; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejxav-0002IJ-O9 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:21 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA22189 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejxwb-0004Bf-4J for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:58:46 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB7Ba6d06660; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 317c_a77c2d92_6715_11da_8486_00304811fd80; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:36:05 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB7BYDof016107; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:35:40 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207155759.06d36a10@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:59:42 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [co-chair hat off] Just some confirmations that I'm okay with your changes. At 01:58 05/12/07, Addison Phillips wrote: >See below. > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] >> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:15 PM >> To: Addison Phillips; LTRU Working Group >> Subject: RE: [Ltru] implementation, application, protocol >> >> At 02:43 05/12/06, Addison Phillips wrote: >> >-- >> >Given a set of language identifiers, such as those defined in > >target="RFC3066bis" />, various mechanisms can be envisioned for >> performing >> >language negotiation and tag matching. >> > >> >This document defines several mechanisms for matching, selecting, or >> >filtering content whose natural language is identified using Language >> Tags >> >, as well as the syntax (called a "language >> >range") associated with each of these mechanisms for specifying the >> user's >> >language preferences. >> >> Can we turn this around, and mention the syntax first, and then the >> matching mechanisms, to have this in document order? >> Also, should we change 'selecting' to 'lookup' to allign terminology? >[Addison Phillips] > >Okay. How about: > >-- >This document defines a syntax (called a language >range) for specifying a user's language preferences, as well as >several schemes for selecting or filtering content by comparing language >ranges to the language tags used to >identify the natural language of that content. >--- fine. >> >Applications, protocols, or specifications will have >> >varying needs and requirements that affect the choice of a suitable >> >mechanism. Depending on the matching scheme, >> >> We use 'mechanism' twice above, and now change to 'scheme', which makes >> it unclear whether these are the same or not. Either use 'scheme' >> throughout, or use a phare such as "matching mechanism, hereafter >> called matching scheme". >[Addison Phillips] > >I changed (as noted above) to use scheme again. I don't really like the >connotations of the English word "scheme", which invokes a sense of >melodrama for me, but what the heck. okay. I don't have any such connotations, luckily. >> >there are various options left to >> >> Can we change "left to" to "for selection by", or something similar >> that is more active in nature? (same again below) >[Addison Phillips] > >What an ungainly set of sentences this turned out to be. I suggest we use >instead (at least until we adopt Harald's suggestion): > >-- >Protocols that implement a matching scheme either need to choose a >particular option or indicate that the particular option is left to the >specific implementation to decide. >-- okay. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 06:36:25 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejxaz-0002JR-65; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:25 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ejxax-0002Im-90 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA22192 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejxwd-0004Bw-MP for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:58:48 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB7Ba7u24981; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 743c_a7e3e6c6_6715_11da_8ece_0030482533a1; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:36:06 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB7BYDoh016107; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:35:41 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207160337.06d33200@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:32:35 +0900 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand , Addison Phillips , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Tag lookup redefinition (RE: [Ltru] Summary of comments,draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 02:16 05/12/07, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >--On tirsdag, desember 06, 2005 08:42:38 -0800 Addison Phillips wrote: > >>> - The lookup function, as designed, is broken. It introduces truncation >>> of language tags outside of the user's control, and it prefers truncated >>> versions of early tags in a LPL to full versions of later ones. >> [Addison Phillips] >> >> I'm not sure I understand what you think is broken here. Lookup searches >> for content based on the idea that prefixes are mutually intelligible. It >> merely reverses which piece (the tag or the range) is looked at as the >> prefix. >This may be "broken" from your point of view, but it is, de facto, how many systems actually work. My "quarrel", if you can call it that, with Mark is that the text is starting to diverge from the way that these mechanisms are actually implemented, which makes me nervous. >de facto, how >> many systems actually work. My "quarrel", if you can call it that, with >> Mark is that the text is starting to diverge from the way that these >> mechanisms are actually implemented, which makes me nervous. > >I think that it's broken in two ways. > >First: >If the language range in a lookup is: > > zh-Hant, en-GB > >and the available objects for matching have tags: > > zh-Hant-TW en-GB zh-Hans-CN zh > >then returning an object labelled "zh-Hant-TW" is consistent with user expectations. >Matching an object labelled "zh" is not - and that is what the current algorithm of "truncate first, move on later" will produce. The problem with the above example is that the content is labeled with too much detail. The principle (currently used) for lookup is to be as specific as possible for ranges, but to be general on the content side. So the conclusion may simply be that the above content is labeled too specificly. Changing the content labels to zh-Hant en-GB zh-Hans would make this example work. Please note that this refers only to the labels that the content is looked up with, which do not necessarily have to be the same as those the content is actually labeled with (e.g. we could have an extension corresponding to zh-Hant on the filename, while internally, it would say xml:lang='zh-Hant-TW'). Of course, we should consider the repercussions this has for content management. There is another aspect, however, than can also hurt this scheme. Take again a language priority list of: zh-Hant, en-GB and assume we have zh, en as content, where zh is actually zh-Hans. Then we get simplified Chinese back to somebody who may not be able to read it. Again, the problem can be solved by fixing the content labeling: Change zh to zh-Hans if it is indeed simplified. But thinking this through, we get into a series of recommendations for both sides: - Recommendation for user (1): Be as specific as you like. You'll get the more general stuff anyway as a fallback. - Recommendation for content provider (1): Do not be more specific than necessary. Some users may use more generic ranges, in which case your content won't be used. - Recommendation for content provider (2): Do not be too general. Do not use tags that leave out information that makes or breaks intellegibility for users. - Recommendation for users (2): Do not be too general. Do not use ranges that leave out information that makes or breaks intellegibility for other users, because servers won't use them, and your ranges won't match. If you understand more than one 'version' of a language that in generall are not considered mutually intellegible, list them both, in your preference. This probably still leaves out some corner cases. The whole exercise shows that there is a balance, and maybe in some cases even a tug-of-war between tags and ranges used by clients and servers. For the zh case, this would lead to servers using zh-Hans and zh-Hant, only something more specific if they e.g. have several country alternatives (but in that case also serving one of them under a generic tag), and not using zh only because its variants are not mutually intellegible in the general public. Users would use zh-Hans and zh-Hant, as appropriate, or something more specific, but not simply zh, because that wouldn't match. From the thread between Harald and Addison: [Harald] > - The lookup function, as designed, is broken. It introduces truncation of > language tags outside of the user's control, and it prefers truncated > versions of early tags in a LPL to full versions of later ones. [Addison Phillips] >I'm not sure I understand what you think is broken here. Lookup searches for content >based on the idea that prefixes are mutually intelligible. Which we know isn't true (unless we avoid content labeled with such prefixes). >It merely reverses which >piece (the tag or the range) is looked at as the prefix. >This may be "broken" from your point of view, but it is, de facto, how many systems >actually work. My "quarrel", if you can call it that, with Mark is that the text is >starting to diverge from the way that these mechanisms are actually implemented, which >makes me nervous. [Harald] > A much better lookup function is simply "use matching and pick the > highest-scoring result; if the result set is empty, use default". User > interfaces can do the expansion IF they decide it's useful to do so. [Addison Phillips] >Locale-based resource/message catalog systems do not work this way: they use lookup as >described by the draft. Any number of Web technologies (both J2EE and ASP.Net come >instantly to mind) do the same with static or semi-static content. There is a >deterministic search though the available material, exhausting each range before moving >on to the next, that is undertaken in the language negotiation. I think one additional reason for doing this is providing a *consistent* user experience. Assume a user has a preference of en-gb, fr Falling back to prefixes assures that e.g. en is choosen when en-gb is not available. In cases where a user navigates a Web site, it is a more consistent experience to go through pages that are all in English (even if slightly different style) than to flip between English and French pages. Even more so for cases where a single page is patched together from different content pieces. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 06:36:41 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjxbF-0002N5-1A; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:41 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjxbD-0002MX-1H for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA22243 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejxwt-0004CW-91 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:59:04 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB7BaNd06669; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3217_b1e05326_6715_11da_97ed_00304811fd80; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:36:23 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB7BYDol016107; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:35:58 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207183609.06d45090@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:37:22 +0900 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand , Addison Phillips , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] harald's comments... In-Reply-To: <722CAC080F5973BD848DC237@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> References: <722CAC080F5973BD848DC237@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 07:46 05/12/07, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >--On 6. desember 2005 10:40 -0800 Addison Phillips wrote: > >> New editor's copy of draft-08 is on my website. It is getting really hard >> to find thing, since several sections have been moved. I suggest we >> update to draft-08 SOON. > >publish early, publish often. Still 91 versions to go until the 2-digit field overflows! [co-chair hat off] I hoped to be able to send in comments on all parts of the draft before a republication :-). [co-chair hat on] Given the number of comments and changes in the recent days, just go ahead, Addison. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 06:36:43 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjxbH-0002Ns-65; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:43 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjxbF-0002Nd-SF for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA22250 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:35:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejxww-0004Cg-Bo for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:59:07 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB7BaVu25014 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 73df_b66343b8_6715_11da_9daa_0030482533a1; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:36:31 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB7BYDor016107 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:10 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207194209.041b8bc0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:53:14 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] lists first or ranges first X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [as a co-chair] Making this a separate issue for easier discussion. [as a technical contributor] This is picking up a comment of Harald's that is in conflict with a comment that I made. [Harald] > - The writing is inconsistent about what the inputs and outputs of a > matching function is. Sometimes it talks about language ranges, sometimes > it talks about language priority lists. I think it needs to always describe > the function in terms of language priority lists. I disagree with the above. I think that a consistent description is very important, but I think it's much easier to do this bottom-up, i.e. first describe how a single language range matches (or doesn't match) a language tag, then talk about how this works for lists. These are the reasons for my proposal: - There are some cases (e.g. style application (CSS) where there are no lists at all, just a range and a tag to match. - Language priority lists aren't fully specified in our draft. There are both issues of syntax (e.g. what separator to use,...) and other issues such as q-values, and so on. - It helps organize the description. It should also make implementation easier. [Addison Phillips] > I completely agree. Actually, the LPL bits come from my efforts to change the text in that direction, having recognized that this is how each algorithm will be implemented. Are you saying that implementations don't have code (most probably some function or method) to compare a single range to a single tag? Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 06:36:49 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjxbN-0002OL-9z; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:49 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjxbM-0002OG-H5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:48 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA22257 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejxx3-0004D8-4K for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:59:13 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB7Baau25022; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3209_b976359c_6715_11da_8af7_00304811fd80; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:36:36 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB7BYDot016107; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:10 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207185457.041a2110@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:07:34 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 515708a075ffdf0a79d1c83b601e2afd Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Comments below. Simple "done"s and "fixed"s are acknowledged and removed. At 06:06 05/12/07, Addison Phillips wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Martin Duerst >> 3.1 Choosing a Type of Matching, continued. >> - third-to-last para: I find the HTTP example problematic. >> It somehow suggests that is what HTTP says. As Mark has explained, >> it is close to what servers do, but not what the spec says. >> It also ignores the possibility of "300 Multiple Choices" >> responses (see >> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.html#sec10.3.1) >> I'm not exactly sure what to do, probably the best thing is >> to find another example. >[Addison Phillips] > >Return a 300 for a 404? Ick. Apache did this quite a bit before the introduced the directives to set default languages,... And in some way, it actually makes quite a bit of sense. If you (or your browser) tells the server that you understand English and German, and the server has French and Chinese, then it may be better to send you back a page saying "Sorry, your choice is not available, but we have French or Chinese, which do you want" than to just send you Chinese and let you find another language version from somewhere on that Chinese page. There may even be a chance to have at least the "multiple choice" page in a large number of languages. >I agree a better example is called for. How about a more generic: > >-- >For example, if process were to insert a human readable error message into >a protocol header, it might select the text based on the user's language >preference. Since it can return only one item, it must choose a single item >and it must return some item, even if no content matches the language >priority list supplied by the user. >-- okay. >> - second-to-last para: 'examine the values': What exactly does >> that mean? Maybe change to something like "don't need any >> additional information about any specific subtags". >[Addison Phillips] > >No, I think it is more general than that: they do not care about the >contents other than to find the boundaries between the subtags. This is a >source of great efficiency, at the expense of certain kinds of error >checking or more interesting processing (such as equating 'no' and 'nb'). >How about: > >-- >Most types of matching in this document are designed >so that implementations are not required to validate or understand any of >the semantics of the subtags supplied and, except for scored filtering, >they do not need access to the Language Subtag Registry. This has great >benefit for speed and simplicity of implementation. >-- okay. >> - dito: "Language Registry Subtag": Please provide a reference >> (to draft-initial, I guess) >[Addison Phillips] > >We can't really reference draft-initial. How about we reference where it is >defined, i.e. RFC 3066bis (draft-registry), Section 3? Fine with me. >> - dito, last sentence: simplify to "This simplifies and speeds >> up implementations." (you can add 'greatly' if you want to keep it) >[Addison Phillips] > >How about: > >-- >This simplifies and speeds the performance of implementations. >-- > >("Speeds up" could be read to mean implementation time) Okay. >> - last para: I think this paragraph should be moved to section 4. >[Addison Phillips] > >Not sure. Kept in place for now. I'll probably come back to this on my next read. >> - 2nd para: '_least_ specific': please add that it is therefore >> shortest >[Addison Phillips] > >Sentence changed to: > >-- >In filtering, the language range represents the least >specific (that is, the fewest number of subtags) language tag which is an >acceptable match. >-- > >Note that "shortest" in characters isn't always the least specific. Ok, good point. >> - third bullet: 'in specific range' -> 'in a specific range'; >> also, 'range of languages' is similar (but not the same as) >> 'language range' (the former being semantics, the later syntax), >> so maybe a different word from 'range' is better. >[Addison Phillips] > >Done. Used "set of languages" in place of various range locutions, which is >in keeping with the use of LPLs instead of ranges in the schemes. I think Mark specifically didn't like 'set', because it's different from list. >> - last para: 'each language tag to a language range': >> unclear why 'each' on one side, but 'a' on the other side, >> suggest to use 'a' for both >[Addison Phillips] > >Changed to read: > >-- >A distance metric assigns a numeric value to the comparison of each >language tag to each language range that represents the 'distance' between >the two. >-- I agree that strictly speaking, it's "each", but that's usually understood when using "a" (meaning "an arbitrary"), and >>>> A distance metric assigns a numeric value to the comparison of a language tag to a language range that represents the 'distance' between the two. >>>> in my view really is easier to read than your text. >> 3.2.1 Filtering with Basic ... >> - There is nothing explaining what happens with language >> priority lists. >[Addison Phillips] > >Fixed by rewriting the first para to match that in extended filtering. >> >> 3.2.2 Filtering with Extended ... >> - 1st para: 'Extended Range Matching scheme': is that the >> terminology we use? The term 'basic matching' is also >> used in this paragraph, but lower case. >[Addison Phillips] > >Expunged this terminology in favor of filtering and no formal name for >each. Perhaps we should have formal names, tho? > >> - dito: we should first describe how a single extended language >> range matches, and only then go to describe how language >> priority lists are dealt with. >[Addison Phillips] > >Actually, I went the opposite direction per Harald (and my own personal >preference). The schemes are all in terms of LPLs, with matching described >between ranges and tags. See separate mail on this issue. >> - 3rd para: 'language element': I checked RFC 3066bis, and >> didn't find 'element' at all. Please allign terminology. >[Addison Phillips] > >I clarified by making clear that "element" is actually an item of the >scored filtering scheme not defined elsewhere. Will check on next round. >> - dito: Thus a pattern ...: merge with following list. >> (if not, then at least change 'a pattern' to 'the pattern') >[Addison Phillips] > >"thus the language range "*"... ok. >> - The paragraph with that sentence, and the examples following, >> seem to turn up in slightly different form in other places. >> Please check if it doesn't make sense to move that topic >> to a general place. >[Addison Phillips] > >It has different meaning here. I suspect that, with some additional >inspection, I can find the other generic instances and harvest them for >inclusion in Section 4 somewhere. Please go ahead, at least with the inspection. >> 3.3 Lookup >> - General: This is a long section, I propose to create some >> subsections, as follows: >> - one for the general stuff at the start >> - one for the discussion of priority lists (in -07 starting >> just before the end of page 15) >> - one for extended language ranges (after what's Figure 8 >> in -07) >[Addison Phillips] > > >This section is heavily rewritten and now considerably shorter. Please >consider that first. Will do. >> - 1st para: talk about single language ranges only here, >> about priority lists later. >[Addison Phillips] > >Went the opposite direction globally, as noted above. Again, see separate mail. >> - "only the closest matching item ...": Add something to say >> that it's returned only if it is less specific. >[Addison Phillips] > >Perhaps "closest" isn't the right term: it is the FIRST item found that is >returned. I split this into two sentences and added one that mirrors the >other types of matching: > >--- >When performing lookup, each language range in the language priority list >is considered in turn, according to priority. By contrast with filtering, >each language ranges represents the most specific tag which >is an acceptable match. The first information item found with a matching >tag, according the user's priority, is considered the closest match and is >the item returned. >--- okay. >> - "Selection of a graphic containing text": I don't like >> this example, because it is bad accessibility practice. >[Addison Phillips] > >I changed "graphic" to "item"... okay. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 06:36:57 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjxbV-0002P1-GB; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjxbU-0002Ow-Qf for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:56 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA22287 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjxxB-0004DP-Dt for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:59:22 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB7Baad06685; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 74b2_b99ec1d8_6715_11da_96c0_0030482533a1; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:36:36 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB7BYDov016107; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:11 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207200827.041bbae0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:09:34 +0900 To: Frank Ellermann , ltru@ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 In-Reply-To: <439677A3.1E08@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20051206174921.GC5020@NYCMJCOWA2> <439677A3.1E08@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 14:48 05/12/07, Frank Ellermann wrote: >John.Cowan wrote: > >> That smells like a standards-track RFC to me. Comments? > >+1 [as a technical contributor] It seems to make sense to me, but I agree with Harald that in that case, we have to be considerably more precise (many less "MAY"s, even though I don't agree with Harald that we have to completely eliminate them). Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 06:36:59 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjxbX-0002PX-Kx; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjxbW-0002PP-BB for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:36:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA22290 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjxxD-0004DU-2I for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 06:59:23 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB7BaVd06678; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3209_b663527c_6715_11da_8af7_00304811fd80; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:36:31 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB7BYDop016107; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:36:09 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207190544.04192520@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:26:32 +0900 To: Frank Ellermann , ltru@ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... In-Reply-To: <4396864E.79AE@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4396864E.79AE@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 15:50 05/12/07, Frank Ellermann wrote: >Addison Phillips wrote: > >>> HTA: ABNF error. Case insensitivty means that the two >>> alternatives are equal. > >> Comment: Gee... now you tell us :-). This is a direct >> quote from 3066bis. > >02-21: >03-17: >06-14: >06-15: >06-15: >08-09: > >Well, we discussed it, didn't we ? There are different ABNF checkers around. I'm not sure which one Addison used. I'm quite sure which one Harald used: he wrote his own. I think there was an IESG discuss on an ABNF issue, which came from Bill Fenner, who also has his own checker. And the one at http://www.apps.ietf.org/abnf.c says it's by Chris Newman. It is not really clear to me whether a syntax such as "x" / "X" is indeed an error. It depends on whether you want to strictly check whether a string is allowed or not (in which case it's just redundant, not an error), or if you want to use the ABNF to cut the syntax into pieces for further processing, in which case you need a deterministic grammar, which the above is not. This is an important distinction; it is one of the main reasons why we e.g. have XML Schema and RelaxNG, the former requiring the schema to be deterministic, whereas the later doesn't. On a quick reading of http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4234.txt, I haven't found any indication that ABNFs have to be deterministic. Of course, many if not most of them are, because usually being able to process the syntax deterministically is the point of the ABNF. But to determine in general whether a syntax is deterministic or not isn't that easy (the non-determinism can occur on a level much higher than constants in the same rule. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 07:30:51 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjyRf-0006VM-RP; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:30:51 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjyRe-0006VF-KX for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:30:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28253 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 07:29:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EjynL-0006Ce-0n for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:53:16 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AC125970C; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:30:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28775-05; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:29:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E372596F3; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:29:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:24:31 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Martin Duerst , Addison Phillips , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: Tag lookup redefinition (RE: [Ltru] Summary of comments,draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07) Message-ID: <53A5A57F26CF865D32130553@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207160337.06d33200@localhost> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207160337.06d33200@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1138730793==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1138730793== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========DC00C2BC85B26EB022F1==========" --==========DC00C2BC85B26EB022F1========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --On 7. desember 2005 20:32 +0900 Martin Duerst =20 wrote: > But thinking this through, we get into a series of recommendations > for both sides: > - Recommendation for user (1): Be as specific as you like. You'll > get the more general stuff anyway as a fallback. > - Recommendation for content provider (1): Do not be more specific > than necessary. Some users may use more generic ranges, in which > case your content won't be used. > - Recommendation for content provider (2): Do not be too general. > Do not use tags that leave out information that makes or breaks > intellegibility for users. > - Recommendation for users (2): Do not be too general. Do not use > ranges that leave out information that makes or breaks > intellegibility for other users, because servers won't use > them, and your ranges won't match. If you understand more than > one 'version' of a language that in generall are not considered > mutually intellegible, list them both, in your preference. My worry is that if the recommendations for the user and the content=20 provider are *opposite* for the lookup case and the matching case, this=20 creates a huge amount of headache when people are trying to use both within = a single application, or with a single datastore. I still haven't seen the convincing argument why they need to be opposite. Harald --==========DC00C2BC85B26EB022F1========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDltR/OMj+2+WY0F4RAg8JAJ9JYb96kMDktkgx3LeDjefzXd8IPQCgvq/Z Bs4288KtZUU0vWJ27Vxbcq4= =/cCl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========DC00C2BC85B26EB022F1==========-- --===============1138730793== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1138730793==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 08:27:27 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjzKR-0004Va-1T; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:27:27 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjzKO-0004V6-Ju for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:27:24 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05415 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EjzK7-0005of-L7 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 14:27:07 +0100 Received: from pd9fbacf6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.251.172.246]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 14:27:07 +0100 Received: from nobody by pd9fbacf6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 14:27:07 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 14:20:20 +0100 Organization: Lines: 41 Message-ID: <4396E194.33CE@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4396864E.79AE@xyzzy.claranet.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20051207190544.04192520@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pd9fbacf6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > There are different ABNF checkers around. I'm not sure which > one Addison used. We used Bill's. "x" / "X" is syntactically fine, same idea as "odd or (not even)", maybe redundant, but no syntax error. Test c = "x" / "X" at http://rtg.ietf.org/~fenner/abnf.cgi > I'm quite sure which one Harald used: he wrote his own. Yes, listed at , but I killed perl on my box. Probably it would also say that c = "x" / "X" is okay, syntactically. > it's just redundant, not an error That's what we decided for 3066bis, "rough consensus". Only I didn't _like_ it, but I didn't claim that it's a syntax error: | Please get the okay of an ABNF expert like Bill, Ned, Bruce, | Dave, Scott, or Harald for the ( "x" / "X" ) > I haven't found any indication that ABNFs have to be > deterministic. Not required. For USEFOR we abuse it as feature, abbreviated: id-quote = [id-text] id-special [id-text] id-text = 1*( atext / "." / id-special ) id-special = ".." / "\\" / ( "\" DQUOTE ) Bye, Frank P.S. and OT: still waiting for two comments about 1: => 02-14 2: => 02-27 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 08:47:09 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjzdV-0000wq-BG; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:47:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EjzdR-0000wE-PD for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:47:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07718 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeke.blacka.com ([69.31.8.124] helo=zeke.ecotroph.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ejzz9-0000gI-3L for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 09:09:32 -0500 Received: from dul1shollenbl1 ([::ffff:216.168.239.87]) (AUTH: LOGIN sah, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) by zeke.ecotroph.net with esmtp; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:46:24 -0500 id 01588087.4396E7B0.0000118E From: "Scott Hollenbeck" To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:47:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <4396E194.33CE@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-Index: AcX7MpXLnfz/gDBTTi2bvubLEl3IEQAAIktg Message-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank Ellermann [mailto:nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de] > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:20 AM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... > > Martin Duerst wrote: [snip] > Yes, listed at , > but I killed perl on my box. Probably it would also say that > c = "x" / "X" is okay, syntactically. > > > it's just redundant, not an error > > That's what we decided for 3066bis, "rough consensus". Only I > didn't _like_ it, but I didn't claim that it's a syntax error: > > | Please get the okay of an ABNF expert like Bill, Ned, Bruce, > | Dave, Scott, or Harald for the ( "x" / "X" ) > The issue of case sensitivity is described in section 2.3 of RFC 4234. To summarize: "ABNF strings are case-insensitive and the character set for these strings is us-ascii." "To specify a rule that IS case SENSITIVE, specify the characters individually. For example: rulename = %d97 %d98 %d99" So, the answer depends on what you're trying to specify. Are you trying to require case sensitivity or not? If not, you can just use either "x" or "X" without worrying about the other. If so, you should be using ( "%x58" / "%x78" ) or ( "%d88" / "%d120" ) depending on whichever base you prefer to use. -Scott- _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 09:44:16 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek0Wl-000539-TT; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 09:44:15 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek0Wk-00052t-4V for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 09:44:14 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14524 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek0S2-0003lS-4g for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:39:22 +0100 Received: from 1cust187.tnt7.hbg2.deu.da.uu.net ([149.225.100.187]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:39:22 +0100 Received: from nobody by 1cust187.tnt7.hbg2.deu.da.uu.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:39:22 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:34:37 +0100 Organization: Lines: 10 Message-ID: <4396F2FD.7CC7@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4396E194.33CE@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust187.tnt7.hbg2.deu.da.uu.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Scott Hollenbeck wrote: > you can just use either "x" or "X" without worrying about > the other. Yes, here we managed to use both, and I worried about that. No serious issue, nobody's tempted to (ab)use subtags x-foo and X-foo with a different meaning. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 11:28:27 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek29a-0003OB-VF; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:28:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek29Z-0003L4-6k for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:28:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25895 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:27:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek2VF-0005vV-Bd for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:50:52 -0500 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB7GS00W013500; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:30:39 -0800 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Frank Ellermann'" , ltru@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:30:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: [snip] > You could (informative reference), but as placeholder for the > "real" registry it's a dubious idea. > > > How about we reference where it is defined, i.e. RFC 3066bis > > (draft-registry), Section 3? > > Or use the "real" IANA URL (TBD) of the tag registry, it will > exist before the matching draft gets an RFC number. Ideally > it will be . > No. The existing RFC 3066 registry is at the above URL. The new SUBtags registry MUST NOT simply overwrite the full tags registry. The existing full tags registry should have a note inserted at the top by IANA stating that it's obsolete (and no longer maintained) when the subtags registry is available. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 11:31:19 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek2CN-0004g0-9Z; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:31:19 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek2CL-0004fJ-RJ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:31:17 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26251 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvmbxw02.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.quest.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek2Y2-00063D-BE for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:53:45 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw02.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:30:59 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] harald's comments... Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:30:56 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] harald's comments... Thread-Index: AcX66ubFavXZAv6xQFK7Sh3A6Gu/RgAYKFZA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2005 16:30:59.0937 (UTC) FILETIME=[9B77DD10:01C5FB4B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0024710073==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0024710073== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 WWVzLCBidXQgdGhlIGNoYWlyIGtlZXBzIHRlbGxpbmcgbWUgdG8gaG9sZCBvZmYuLi4uDQoNCkFm dGVyIHRvZGF5J3Mgcm91bmQsIEknbSBzZW5kaW5nIGluICM4Lg0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQoNCkFkZGlz b24gUC4gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJjaGl0ZWN0LCBRdWVzdCBTb2Z0d2FyZQ0K DQpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0 ZWN0dXJlLiANCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBIYXJhbGQg VHZlaXQgQWx2ZXN0cmFuZCBbbWFpbHRvOmhhcmFsZEBhbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBU dWVzZGF5LCBEZWNlbWJlciAwNiwgMjAwNSAyOjQ3IFBNDQo+IFRvOiBBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBz OyBMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXANCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1XSBoYXJhbGQncyBjb21t ZW50cy4uLg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiAtLU9uIDYuIGRlc2VtYmVyIDIwMDUgMTA6NDAgLTA4MDAg QWRkaXNvbiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KPiA8YWRkaXNvbi5waGlsbGlwc0BxdWVzdC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0K PiANCj4gPiBOZXcgZWRpdG9yJ3MgY29weSBvZiBkcmFmdC0wOCBpcyBvbiBteSB3ZWJzaXRlLiBJ dCBpcyBnZXR0aW5nIHJlYWxseQ0KPiBoYXJkDQo+ID4gdG8gZmluZCB0aGluZywgc2luY2Ugc2V2 ZXJhbCBzZWN0aW9ucyBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbW92ZWQuIEkgc3VnZ2VzdCB3ZQ0KPiA+IHVwZGF0ZSB0 byBkcmFmdC0wOCBTT09OLg0KPiANCj4gcHVibGlzaCBlYXJseSwgcHVibGlzaCBvZnRlbi4gU3Rp bGwgOTEgdmVyc2lvbnMgdG8gZ28gdW50aWwgdGhlIDItZGlnaXQNCj4gZmllbGQgb3ZlcmZsb3dz IQ0KPiANCj4gDQoNCg== --===============0024710073== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0024710073==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 11:50:49 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek2VF-00016i-Gy; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:50:49 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek2VE-00015v-B2 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:50:48 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28442 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvmbxw02.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.quest.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek2qy-0006iO-3u for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:13:16 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw02.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:50:39 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:50:37 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) Thread-Index: AcX7InyTxeU8HgpsTO6xGK0lqDYSuQAKg04g From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2005 16:50:39.0194 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A5C33A0:01C5FB4E] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1520858468==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1520858468== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1520858468==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 11:54:23 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek2Yh-0001tY-DA; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:54:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek2Ye-0001s0-Sq for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:54:21 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28814 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:53:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek2uO-0006pN-Lh for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:16:49 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:54:07 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:54:06 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... Thread-Index: AcX7IqXoSlTDyirfTVSul9j6W8Fi6QAK8UsA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2005 16:54:07.0523 (UTC) FILETIME=[D688AF30:01C5FB4E] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1003786418==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1003786418== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSB1c2UgQmlsbCBGZW5uZXIncyBBQk5GIGNoZWNrZXIuIFRoZSBJRVRGIG9uZSB3YXMgYnVnZ3kg Zm9yIGEgbG9uZyB0aW1lIGFuZCBJIGtlcHQgZ2V0dGluZyBidXJuZWQgZm9yIHVzaW5nIGl0Lg0K 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(8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00579 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:08:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek38b-0007Nr-ML for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:31:31 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:08:48 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] scored filtering and supress script Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:08:46 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] scored filtering and supress script Thread-Index: AcX7Iwo1fz/2kF/tSSyz1B7FvEX3iQAK+WdQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2005 17:08:48.0111 (UTC) FILETIME=[E367BFF0:01C5FB50] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1254371175==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1254371175== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhlcmUgaXMgdGhlIHByb2JsZW0gb2YgdGV4dCBoZXJlLiBJIHByb3Bvc2UgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2lu ZzoNCg0KPHQ+Rm9yIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ3MgdGhhdCBoYXZlIG5vIHNjcmlwdCBzdWJ0YWcgYnV0 IHdob3NlIGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZydzIHJlY29yZCBpbiB0aGUgSUFOQSBMYW5ndWFnZSBTdWJ0 YWcgUmVnaXN0cnkgY29udGFpbnMgdGhlIGZpZWxkICJTdXBwcmVzcy1TY3JpcHQiLCB0aGUgc2Ny aXB0IGVsZW1lbnQgaW4gdGhlIHF1aW50dXBsZSBNVVNUIGJlIHNldCB0byB0aGUgc2NyaXB0IHN1 YnRhZyBpbiB0aGUgU3VwcHJlc3MtU2NyaXB0IGZpZWxkLiBUaGlzIGlzIG5lY2Vzc2FyeSBiZWNh 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1254371175==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 12:18:05 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek2rz-0006eC-GL; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:14:19 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek2ry-0006e3-Mo for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:14:18 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01274 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvmbxw02.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.quest.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek3Dh-0007bE-AA for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:36:46 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw02.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:14:08 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] lists first or ranges first Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:14:06 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] lists first or ranges first Thread-Index: AcX7IytM8PLN73/rQ02t+rSBKFlbNQALdNMw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2005 17:14:08.0032 (UTC) FILETIME=[A217D200:01C5FB51] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0981723655==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: 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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0981723655==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 12:18:55 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek2wR-0008Ps-8p; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:18:55 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek2wQ-0008P9-3Q for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:18:54 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01571 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek3I9-0007jf-5c for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:41:22 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:18:43 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:18:42 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 Thread-Index: AcX7I1MvX+8TS0QjS92V4gHRyVxHdQALlcsw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2005 17:18:43.0748 (UTC) FILETIME=[466EBE40:01C5FB52] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1562853470==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1562853470== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; 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Dec 2005 12:24:02 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02125 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:23:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek3N7-0007t1-Bw for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:46:29 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:23:51 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:23:50 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) Thread-Index: AcX7S05V4TW6e0FCTHSIr5JQyT5z6gAB1V3A From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" , "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2005 17:23:51.0964 (UTC) FILETIME=[FE24C5C0:01C5FB52] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0439055031==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0439055031== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UlRGTS4gUkZDIDMwNjZiaXMgc2F5czoNCg0KLS0NClRoZSBuZXcgcmVnaXN0cnkgTVVTVCBiZSBs aXN0ZWQgdW5kZXIgIkxhbmd1YWdlIFRhZ3MiIGF0IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWFuYS5vcmcvbnVtYmVy cy5odG1sLCByZXBsYWNpbmcgdGhlIGV4aXN0aW5nIHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbnMgZGVmaW5lZCBieSBb UkZDMzA2Nl0gKEFsdmVzdHJhbmQsIEguLCDigJxUYWdzIGZvciB0aGUgSWRlbnRpZmljYXRpb24g b2YgTGFuZ3VhZ2VzLOKAnSBKYW51YXJ5IDIwMDEuKS4gVGhlIGV4aXN0aW5nIHNldCBvZiByZWdp 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Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] draft-08 of ietf-ltru-matching X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5FB5B.9DC1D761 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBFZGl0b3IsDQoNClBsZWFzZSBmaW5kIGF0dGFjaGVkIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbHRydS1tYXRj aGluZy0wOCBpbiB0ZXh0IGZvcm1hdC4NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KDQpBZGRpc29uIChmb3IgdGhlIGVk aXRvcnMpDQoNCkFkZGlzb24gUC4gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJjaGl0ZWN0LCBR dWVzdCBTb2Z0d2FyZQ0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5xdWVzdC5jb20NCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRp b24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4gDQoNCg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5FB5B.9DC1D761 Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt" 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14:53:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek5MR-0007KO-P5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 14:53:56 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA19549 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek5KI-0007g1-Bn for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:51:42 +0100 Received: from 1cust90.tnt8.hbg2.deu.da.uu.net ([149.225.138.90]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:51:42 +0100 Received: from nobody by 1cust90.tnt8.hbg2.deu.da.uu.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:51:42 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:48:09 +0100 Organization: Lines: 10 Message-ID: <43973C79.17CA@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust90.tnt8.hbg2.deu.da.uu.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > More differences will not be better, provided the ABNF is > actually correct. Yes, if Harald convinces you to say "x" instead of "x" / "X" in -matching, then you could also update -registry in AUTH48 to reflect this. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 16:02:34 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek6Qs-0008NZ-FN; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:02:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek6Qr-0008NU-3A for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:02:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26539 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 16:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek6ma-0007Sy-Gg for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:25:02 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:02:14 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:02:12 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... Thread-Index: AcX7aF8wM6o99i7sSJyNrTj2MJxVdgABwIWg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2005 21:02:14.0079 (UTC) FILETIME=[7F9CDCF0:01C5FB71] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0480359914==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0480359914== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSdtIGhhcHB5IHRvIGJlIGNvbnZpbmNlZCwgc2VlIGZvciBleGFtcGxlIFNjb3R0J3MgZW1haWwu IFRoZSBuZXcgQUJORiB3aWxsIGJlIGVhc2llciB0byByZWFkIGFuZCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kLiAoSXQg aXMgTk9UIGluIGRyYWZ0LTA4LCBwbGVhc2Ugbm90ZS4pIA0KDQpIZXJlIGlzIHdoYXQgSSBwcm9w b3NlIHRvIHVzZToNCg0KLS0NCmV4dGVuZGVkLWxhbmd1YWdlLXJhbmdlICA9IHJhbmdlIDsgYSBy YW5nZQ0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAvIHByaXZhdGV1c2UgICAgICAgOyBhIHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIHJh bmdlDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgIC8gZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCAgICA7IGEgZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCBy ZWdpc3RyYXRpb24NCg0KcmFuZ2UgICAgICAgICA9IChsYW5ndWFnZQ0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICBbIi0iIHNjcmlwdF0NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgWyItIiByZWdpb25dDQogICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICooIi0iIHZhcmlhbnQpDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICooIi0iIGV4dGVuc2lvbikN CiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgWyItIiBwcml2YXRldXNlXSkNCg0KbGFuZ3VhZ2UgICAgICA9ICgy KjNBTFBIQSBbIGV4dGxhbmcgXSkgOyBzaG9ydGVzdCBJU08gNjM5IGNvZGUNCiAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgLyA0QUxQSEEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDsgcmVzZXJ2ZWQgZm9yIGZ1dHVyZSB1c2UNCiAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgLyA1KjhBTFBIQSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDsgcmVnaXN0ZXJlZCBsYW5ndWFn ZSBzdWJ0YWcNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLyAiKiIgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDsgLi4uIG9y IHdpbGRjYXJkDQoNCmV4dGxhbmcgICAgICAgPSAqMigiLSIgM0FMUEhBKSAoIi0iICggM0FMUEhB IC8gIioiKSkNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDsgcmVzZXJ2 ZWQgZm9yIGZ1dHVyZSB1c2UNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg IDsgd2lsZGNhcmQgY2FuIG9ubHkgYXBwZWFyDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICA7ICAgYXQgdGhlIGVuZA0KDQpzY3JpcHQgICAgICAgID0gNEFMUEhBICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICA7IElTTyAxNTkyNCBjb2RlDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgIC8gIioiICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICA7IG9yIHdpbGRjYXJkDQoNCnJlZ2lvbiAgICAgICAgPSAyQUxQSEEgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgIDsgSVNPIDMxNjYgY29kZQ0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAvIDNESUdJVCAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgOyBVTiBNLjQ5IGNvZGUNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLyAiKiIgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgIDsgb3Igd2lsZGNhcmQNCg0KdmFyaWFudCAgICAgICA9IDUqOGFscGhhbnVtICAgICAg ICAgICAgOyByZWdpc3RlcmVkIHZhcmlhbnRzDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgIC8gKERJR0lUIDNhbHBo YW51bSkgICAgICA7IA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAvICIqIiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgOyBv ciB3aWxkY2FyZA0KDQpleHRlbnNpb24gICAgID0gc2luZ2xldG9uICooIi0iICgyKjhhbHBoYW51 bSkpIFsgIi0qIiBdDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA7IGV4 dGVuc2lvbiBzdWJ0YWdzDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA7 IHdpbGRjYXJkIGNhbiBvbmx5IGFwcGVhcg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgOyAgIGF0IHRoZSBlbmQNCg0Kc2luZ2xldG9uICAgICA9ICJhIi0idyIgLyAieSIt InoiIC8gRElHSVQNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgOyBzaW5nbGUgY2hhcmFjdGVycywgIngiIGlzIHJl c2VydmVkIGZvciBwcml2YXRlIHVzZQ0KDQpwcml2YXRldXNlICAgID0gIngiIDEqKCItIiAoMSo4 YWxwaGFudW0pKQ0KDQpncmFuZGZhdGhlcmVkID0gMSozQUxQSEEgMSoyKCItIiAoMio4YWxwaGFu dW0pKQ0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDsgZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCByZWdpc3RyYXRpb24NCiAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICA7IE5vdGU6IEkgaXMgdGhlIG9ubHkgc2luZ2xldG9uDQogICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgOyB0aGF0IHN0YXJ0cyBhIGdyYW5kZmF0aGVyZWQgdGFnDQoNCmFscGhhbnVtICAgICAgPSAo QUxQSEEgLyBESUdJVCkgICAgICAgOyBsZXR0ZXJzIGFuZCBudW1iZXJzDQotLQ0KDQpBZGRpc29u IFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCwgUXVlc3QgU29mdHdhcmUNCg0K SW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVj dHVyZS4gDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YN Cj4gRnJhbmsgRWxsZXJtYW5uDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgRGVjZW1iZXIgMDcsIDIwMDUg MTE6NDggQU0NCj4gVG86IGx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogW0x0cnVdIFJlOiBoYXJh bGQncyBjb21tZW50cy4uLg0KPiANCj4gQWRkaXNvbiBQaGlsbGlwcyB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+ID4g TW9yZSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlcyB3aWxsIG5vdCBiZSBiZXR0ZXIsIHByb3ZpZGVkIHRoZSBBQk5GIGlz DQo+ID4gYWN0dWFsbHkgY29ycmVjdC4NCj4gDQo+IFllcywgaWYgSGFyYWxkIGNvbnZpbmNlcyB5 b3UgdG8gc2F5ICJ4IiBpbnN0ZWFkIG9mICJ4IiAvICJYIg0KPiBpbiAtbWF0Y2hpbmcsIHRoZW4g eW91IGNvdWxkIGFsc28gdXBkYXRlIC1yZWdpc3RyeSBpbiBBVVRINDgNCj4gdG8gcmVmbGVjdCB0 aGlzLg0KPiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEJ5ZSwgRnJhbmsNCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4g X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gTHRydSBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo= --===============0480359914== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0480359914==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 16:04:47 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek6T1-0000ob-AU; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:04:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek6Sz-0000oW-S3 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:04:46 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26772 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 16:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek6ok-0007Wl-Vk for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:27:16 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:04:35 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:04:34 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... Thread-Index: AcX7aF8wM6o99i7sSJyNrTj2MJxVdgACSMsQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2005 21:04:35.0719 (UTC) FILETIME=[D4096970:01C5FB71] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1449364566==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1449364566== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T2gsIHdhaXQsIG5vdyBJIHJlbWVtYmVyLi4uDQoNCkJpbGwncyBwYXJzZXIgeWFrcyBpZiBJIHRy eToNCg0KImEiIC0gInciDQoNCkknbSBzdXBwb3NlZCB0byB1c2UgY2hhcmFjdGVyIG51bWJlcnMg Zm9yIGEgcmFuZ2UuLi4gYnV0IHRoZW4gSSByZWFsbHkgYW0gZm9yY2VkIHRvIHF1b3RlIGJvdGgg dXBwZXIgYW5kIGxvd2VyIGNhc2UgY2hhcmFjdGVyIHJhbmdlcywgc2luY2UgY2hhcmFjdGVyIHZh bHVlcyBpcyBob3cgImNhc2Utc2Vuc2l0aXZlIiBpcyBkb25lLiBBbmQgdGhlbiBpdCBsb29rcyBm dW5ueSB0byBkbyBvbmUgYW5kIG5vdCB0aGUgb3RoZXIuDQoNCkknbSBnb2luZyB0byB3cmVzdGxl IHdpdGggaXQgYSBiaXQgbW9yZSBiZWZvcmUgZ2l2aW5nIHVwLg0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQoNCkFkZGlz b24gUC4gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJjaGl0ZWN0LCBRdWVzdCBTb2Z0d2FyZQ0K DQpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0 ZWN0dXJlLiANCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBsdHJ1LWJv dW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzpsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBP Zg0KPiBGcmFuayBFbGxlcm1hbm4NCj4gU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBEZWNlbWJlciAwNywgMjAw NSAxMTo0OCBBTQ0KPiBUbzogbHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBbTHRydV0gUmU6IGhh cmFsZCdzIGNvbW1lbnRzLi4uDQo+IA0KPiBBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzIHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4g PiBNb3JlIGRpZmZlcmVuY2VzIHdpbGwgbm90IGJlIGJldHRlciwgcHJvdmlkZWQgdGhlIEFCTkYg aXMNCj4gPiBhY3R1YWxseSBjb3JyZWN0Lg0KPiANCj4gWWVzLCBpZiBIYXJhbGQgY29udmluY2Vz IHlvdSB0byBzYXkgIngiIGluc3RlYWQgb2YgIngiIC8gIlgiDQo+IGluIC1tYXRjaGluZywgdGhl biB5b3UgY291bGQgYWxzbyB1cGRhdGUgLXJlZ2lzdHJ5IGluIEFVVEg0OA0KPiB0byByZWZsZWN0 IHRoaXMuDQo+ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgQnllLCBGcmFuaw0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0K PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBMdHJ1 IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCg== --===============1449364566== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1449364566==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 17:17:00 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek7at-0000U4-RL; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:16:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ek7aq-0000SY-Oz for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:16:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09100 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:16:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ek7wb-0003Bg-Cl for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:39:26 -0500 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB7MGYep023723; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:16:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:19:14 -0800 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , "McDonald, Ira" , Frank Ellermann , ltru@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:19:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Two different things - you're talking about labels in HTML. Frank gave an actual HTTP URL (which happens to correspond=20 one-to-one to the current FTP URL). =20 It is exceedingly bad practice to blow away a registry at a=20 URL with a different registry with different semantics. Keep your labels. But let's behave well about durable URLs. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison.phillips@quest.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 12:24 PM > To: McDonald, Ira; Frank Ellermann; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) >=20 >=20 > RTFM. RFC 3066bis says: >=20 > -- > The new registry MUST be listed under "Language Tags" at=20 > http://www.iana.org/numbers.html, replacing the existing=20 > registrations defined by [RFC3066] (Alvestrand, H., =E2=80=9CTags for = > the Identification of Languages,=E2=80=9D January 2001.). The=20 > existing set of registration forms and RFC 3066 registrations=20 > MUST be relabeled as "Language Tags (Obsolete)" and=20 > maintained (but not added to or modified). > -- >=20 > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software >=20 > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture.=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf Of > > McDonald, Ira > > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:31 AM > > To: 'Frank Ellermann'; ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: editorial comments on draft-07 (part 2) > >=20 > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > [snip] > > > You could (informative reference), but as placeholder for the > > > "real" registry it's a dubious idea. > > > > > > > How about we reference where it is defined, i.e. RFC 3066bis > > > > (draft-registry), Section 3? > > > > > > Or use the "real" IANA URL (TBD) of the tag registry, it will > > > exist before the matching draft gets an RFC number. Ideally > > > it will be . > > > > >=20 > > No. The existing RFC 3066 registry is at the above URL. The > > new SUBtags registry MUST NOT simply overwrite the full tags > > registry. The existing full tags registry should have a note > > inserted at the top by IANA stating that it's obsolete (and no > > longer maintained) when the subtags registry is available. > >=20 > > Cheers, > > - Ira > >=20 > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >=20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 07 21:53:39 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkBud-0002On-JL; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:53:39 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkBuc-0002OB-Jw for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:53:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA13617 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:52:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EkCGO-0005q3-L5 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:16:10 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB82r2d07080; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:53:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 5251_bf74bbfa_6795_11da_9580_00304811fd80; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:53:01 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB82pce6025825; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:52:06 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051208110010.07b754e0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:50:57 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , "Frank Ellermann" , From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [co-chair hat on] We have discussed this issue before, and came to a conclusion. Harald said that "x" / "X" was an error. There have been various statements showing that it isn't. I propose to close this issue without any changes, so that we can move on and concentrate on the other work we still have to do. Regards, Martin. At 06:04 05/12/08, Addison Phillips wrote: >Content-class: urn:content-classes:message >Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" > >Oh, wait, now I remember... > >Bill's parser yaks if I try: > >"a" - "w" > >I'm supposed to use character numbers for a range... but then I really am >forced to quote both upper and lower case character ranges, since character >values is how "case-sensitive" is done. And then it looks funny to do one >and not the other. > >I'm going to wrestle with it a bit more before giving up. > >Addison > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Frank Ellermann >> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 11:48 AM >> To: ltru@ietf.org >> Subject: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... >> >> Addison Phillips wrote: >> >> > More differences will not be better, provided the ABNF is >> > actually correct. >> >> Yes, if Harald convinces you to say "x" instead of "x" / "X" >> in -matching, then you could also update -registry in AUTH48 >> to reflect this. >> Bye, Frank >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 08 00:51:21 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkEgb-00082p-ED; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:51:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkEga-00082Z-B0 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:51:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA28892 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 00:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EkF2Q-0002RB-Bb for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 01:13:55 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB85omd19609; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 14:50:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 156b_94feceec_67ae_11da_846a_0030482533a1; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 14:50:48 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB85n5bd027621; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 14:50:10 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051208124606.07b8a940@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:50:45 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , "Frank Ellermann" , From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [chair hat on] At 02:18 05/12/08, Addison Phillips wrote: >+1 > >If we wish to go down the STD track: > >1. I will need to modify the draft to indicate this. Yes. But that's very easily done. >2. We ought to find out what effect this has on the publication of 3066bis, >since in theory that document is supposed to tandem with this one. I could >see the two in tandem when both were BCPs, but one BCP and one STD?!? >Incroyable.$B!!(BOkay, maybe that's a bit too melodramatic... In my understanding, the main reason for the tandem is the obsoletion of RFC 3066: The IESG/RFC Editor don't want to obsolete part of RFC 3066 by publishing draft-registry without draft-matching. >3. We will (eventually) need to have implementations of each scheme. I >think we'll want this sooner rather than later to demonstrate whether each >scheme works the way we think it does. Yes. As far as I understand, we already have implementations for filtering with basic range (Apache HTTP), and we may have implementations for lookup depending on how we end up with that. And if no implementations come up, we will just have to drop that scheme when doing to Draft Standard. Currently, I understand Frank and Addison are for going the STD route. Harald and me [as a technical contributor] seem to be okay with that. What about others? Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 08 01:28:18 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkFGM-0007Ok-GD; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 01:28:18 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkFGK-0007Lb-Ez for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 01:28:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA02161 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 01:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EkFc7-0003PP-NR for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 01:50:50 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jB86Rsd22046; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 15:27:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 52be_c4319b5e_67b3_11da_8350_00304811fd80; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:27:54 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB86Q96N028013; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 15:27:02 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051208145645.07b315d0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 14:57:16 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] scored filtering and supress script In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Great, thanks. I'll comment on any details (if I find some) in the next round. Regards, Martin. At 02:08 05/12/08, Addison Phillips wrote: >There is the problem of text here. I propose the following: > >For language tags that have no script subtag but whose language subtag's >record in the IANA Language Subtag Registry contains the field >"Suppress-Script", the script element in the quintuple MUST be set to the >script subtag in the Suppress-Script field. This is necessary because target="RFC3066bis"> strongly recommends that users not use this >subtag to form language tags and this document recommends that users not >use them to form ranges. For example, if the script were not expanded in >this manner, a range such as "de-DE" would produce a more-distant score for >content that happened to be labeled "de-Latn-DE" than users would expect >that it should. Note that languages which have a "Suppress-Script" field in >the registry are predominantly written in a single script. > >I also modified the following sentence to being with "Any remaining missing >components..." > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Martin Duerst >> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:34 PM >> To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand; LTRU Working Group >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] scored filtering and supress script >> >> At 21:53 05/12/06, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> > >> > >> >--On tirsdag, desember 06, 2005 17:39:58 +0900 Martin Duerst >> wrote: >> > >> >> [co-chair hat off] >> >> This is a proposal that both Doug and I liked, and that >> >> I don't understand why it shouldn't work, so I'm bringing >> >> it up again here. Doug also pointed out that we need >> >> have the necessary information anyway. >> >> >> >> For scored filtering, I propose to exand both ranges >> >> and tags with suppress-script. This means that >> >> de-DE becomes de-Latn-DE, and thus doesn't match >> >> de-Brai-DE, in contrast to de-*-DE, which of course >> >> would match de-Brai-DE. >> > >> >This of course demands access to the registry, and the results will vary >> based on which date the registry was incorporated/consulted. >> >But since this is already implicit in section 3.2.3: >> >> Yes, exactly. This is what I meant when I wrote "Doug also pointed >> out that we need have the necessary information anyway." above. >> >> > First both the extended language range and the language tags to be >> > matched to it must be canonicalized by mapping grandfathered and >> > obsolete tags into modern equivalents. >> > >> >I see this as a reasonable thing to do. >> >Note: draft-ietf-ltru-initial-06 has 125 "Suppress-Script" tags, and 481 >> entries with "Type: Language". It's possible that there'll be a number of >> updates requested if this proves popular and useful. >> >> Yes indeed. There are a lot of languages that in practice are written >> only or highly predominantly with one script, but do not yet have the >> appropriate "Suppress-Script" information. >> >> Regards, Martin. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 08 05:16:26 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkIp8-0003Vb-MD; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 05:16:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkIp5-0003UU-8L for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 05:16:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA24176 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 05:15:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EkJAv-0001u9-Kn for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 05:39:00 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1EE25972B; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:15:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02436-05; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:15:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.160] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C7C2596ED; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:15:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:18:27 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Martin Duerst , Frank Ellermann , ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... Message-ID: <828E8953E18DE5D7719B8504@svartdal.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20051207190544.04192520@localhost> References: <4396864E.79AE@xyzzy.claranet.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20051207190544.04192520@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --On onsdag, desember 07, 2005 19:26:32 +0900 Martin Duerst wrote: > At 15:50 05/12/07, Frank Ellermann wrote: > >Addison Phillips wrote: > > > >>> HTA: ABNF error. Case insensitivty means that the two > >>> alternatives are equal. > > > >> Comment: Gee... now you tell us :-). This is a direct > >> quote from 3066bis. > > > >02-21: > >03-17: > >06-14: > >06-15: > >06-15: > >08-09: > > > >Well, we discussed it, didn't we ? > > There are different ABNF checkers around. I'm not sure which > one Addison used. I'm quite sure which one Harald used: he > wrote his own. I think there was an IESG discuss on an ABNF > issue, which came from Bill Fenner, who also has his own > checker. And the one at http://www.apps.ietf.org/abnf.c > says it's by Chris Newman. actually I used my eyeballs... my syntax checker is far less good than the newer alternatives. And it's not strictly an ABNF error - my objection is to it being superfluous - it will leave people who know that ABNF is case insensitive about " " strings hunting for the sentence that says "in this case, we're using ABNF as if it was case sensitive" (there is none), and making people who don't know that ABNF is case insensitive assume that it is. I prefer not to have it. But if the WG has reached consensus that this should be that way.... sigh; I'll let you have it. Harald _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 08 10:05:14 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkNKc-0007Wd-3o; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:05:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkNKa-0007Vp-SG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:05:12 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24706 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from DGBP7M81 ([69.162.95.23]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20051208150432.TBSI14807.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:04:32 -0500 Message-ID: <005a01c5fc08$b1632590$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20051208063113.DTGH30003.edge6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:04:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] BCP vs. STD (was: Re: Summary of comments, draft-ietf-ltru-matching-07) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > Currently, I understand Frank and Addison are for going the STD route. > Harald and me [as a technical contributor] seem to be okay with that. > What about others? Agnostic. Whatever you guys feel is best in this regard. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California, USA http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 08 10:12:14 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkNRO-0000Wa-BT; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:12:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkNRM-0000WV-Fv for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:12:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25833 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay01.pair.com ([209.68.5.15]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EkNRK-0003mg-EL for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:12:12 -0500 Received: (qmail 58586 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2005 15:12:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 8 Dec 2005 15:12:04 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 24.23.194.196 Message-ID: <43984D42.9070205@icu-project.org> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 07:12:02 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] BCP vs. STD References: <20051208063113.DTGH30003.edge6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <005a01c5fc08$b1632590$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <005a01c5fc08$b1632590$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org As long as it doesn't delay 3066bis, I don't really have a strong opinion either way. Mark Doug Ewell wrote: > Martin Duerst wrote: > >> Currently, I understand Frank and Addison are for going the STD route. >> Harald and me [as a technical contributor] seem to be okay with that. >> What about others? > > > Agnostic. Whatever you guys feel is best in this regard. > > -- > Doug Ewell > Fullerton, California, USA > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 08 10:17:54 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkNWs-0003Ib-0F; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:17:54 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkNWp-0003F9-Vu for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:17:52 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA26638 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:16:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from suomi.kotus.fi ([193.166.18.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EkNWb-00041F-IX for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:17:40 -0500 Received: from kotus.fi (pc163.kotus.fi [193.166.18.163]) by suomi.kotus.fi (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jB8FHMEM008990; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:17:22 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <43984E84.2050001@kotus.fi> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:17:24 +0200 From: Erkki Kolehmainen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: fi, en-us, sv MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] BCP vs. STD References: <20051208063113.DTGH30003.edge6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <005a01c5fc08$b1632590$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> <43984D42.9070205@icu-project.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I tend to agree with Mark on this. Erkki I. Kolehmainen Mark Davis wrote: > As long as it doesn't delay 3066bis, I don't really have a strong > opinion either way. > > Mark > > Doug Ewell wrote: > >> Martin Duerst wrote: >> >>> Currently, I understand Frank and Addison are for going the STD route. >>> Harald and me [as a technical contributor] seem to be okay with that. >>> What about others? >> >> >> >> Agnostic. Whatever you guys feel is best in this regard. >> >> -- >> Doug Ewell >> Fullerton, California, USA >> http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 08 10:52:21 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkO4D-0004VB-HY; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:52:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkO46-0004S7-RO for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:52:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01783 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvmbxw02.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.quest.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EkO3O-0005Tr-2H for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:51:33 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw02.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:51:09 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:51:13 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: harald's comments... Thread-Index: AcX74KojF12ANfKEQX2+kVs2pt5mawALmQaw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" , "Martin Duerst" , "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2005 15:51:09.0926 (UTC) FILETIME=[3552E060:01C5FC0F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1016412429==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1016412429== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBkb24ndCBtaW5kIGNoYW5naW5nIHRoZSBBQk5GIGZvciBwcml2YXRlLXVzZSBhdCBhbGwuIEl0 J3MgdGhlIHNpbmdsZXRvbiBwcm9kdWN0aW9uIHRoYXQgaXMgYSBwcm9ibGVtLCBzaW5jZSBpdCB1 c2VzIHJhbmdlcy4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0 aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCwgUXVlc3QgU29mdHdhcmUNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMg bm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4gDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwg TWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUt Ym91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mDQo+IEhhcmFsZCBUdmVpdCBBbHZlc3RyYW5k DQo+IFNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBEZWNlbWJlciAwOCwgMjAwNSAyOjE4IEFNDQo+IFRvOiBNYXJ0 aW4gRHVlcnN0OyBGcmFuayBFbGxlcm1hbm47IGx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6 IFtMdHJ1XSBSZTogaGFyYWxkJ3MgY29tbWVudHMuLi4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gLS1PbiBvbnNk YWcsIGRlc2VtYmVyIDA3LCAyMDA1IDE5OjI2OjMyICswOTAwIE1hcnRpbiBEdWVyc3QNCj4gPGR1 ZXJzdEBpdC5hb3lhbWEuYWMuanA+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gPiBBdCAxNTo1MCAwNS8xMi8wNywg RnJhbmsgRWxsZXJtYW5uIHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+ICA+QWRkaXNvbiBQaGlsbGlwcyB3cm90ZToNCj4g PiAgPg0KPiA+ICA+Pj4gSFRBOiBBQk5GIGVycm9yLiBDYXNlIGluc2Vuc2l0aXZ0eSBtZWFucyB0 aGF0IHRoZSB0d28NCj4gPiAgPj4+IGFsdGVybmF0aXZlcyBhcmUgZXF1YWwuDQo+ID4gID4NCj4g PiAgPj4gQ29tbWVudDogR2VlLi4uIG5vdyB5b3UgdGVsbCB1cyA6LSkuIFRoaXMgaXMgYSBkaXJl Y3QNCj4gPiAgPj4gcXVvdGUgZnJvbSAzMDY2YmlzLg0KPiA+ICA+DQo+ID4gID4wMi0yMTogPGh0 dHA6Ly9taWQuZ21hbmUub3JnLzQyMTlFOTA5LjQ4MEVAeHl6enkuY2xhcmFuZXQuZGU+DQo+ID4g ID4wMy0xNzogPGh0dHA6Ly9taWQuZ21hbmUub3JnLzQyMzhEOURFLjNENTVAeHl6enkuY2xhcmFu ZXQuZGU+DQo+ID4gID4wNi0xNDogPGh0dHA6Ly9taWQuZ21hbmUub3JnLzQyMTlFOTA5LjQ4MEVA eHl6enkuY2xhcmFuZXQuZGU+DQo+ID4gID4wNi0xNTogPGh0dHA6Ly9taWQuZ21hbmUub3JnLzQy QjAxQjI4LjUxODNAeHl6enkuY2xhcmFuZXQuZGU+DQo+ID4gID4wNi0xNTogPGh0dHA6Ly9taWQu Z21hbmUub3JnLzQyQjAzQUE1LjY1RDVAeHl6enkuY2xhcmFuZXQuZGU+DQo+ID4gID4wOC0wOTog PGh0dHA6Ly9taWQuZ21hbmUub3JnLzQyQjAzQUE1LjY1RDVAeHl6enkuY2xhcmFuZXQuZGU+DQo+ ID4gID4NCj4gPiAgPldlbGwsIHdlIGRpc2N1c3NlZCBpdCwgZGlkbid0IHdlID8gIDxnPg0KPiA+ DQo+ID4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIGRpZmZlcmVudCBBQk5GIGNoZWNrZXJzIGFyb3VuZC4gSSdtIG5vdCBz dXJlIHdoaWNoDQo+ID4gb25lIEFkZGlzb24gdXNlZC4gSSdtIHF1aXRlIHN1cmUgd2hpY2ggb25l IEhhcmFsZCB1c2VkOiBoZQ0KPiA+IHdyb3RlIGhpcyBvd24uIEkgdGhpbmsgdGhlcmUgd2FzIGFu IElFU0cgZGlzY3VzcyBvbiBhbiBBQk5GDQo+ID4gaXNzdWUsIHdoaWNoIGNhbWUgZnJvbSBCaWxs IEZlbm5lciwgd2hvIGFsc28gaGFzIGhpcyBvd24NCj4gPiBjaGVja2VyLiBBbmQgdGhlIG9uZSBh dCBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFwcHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvYWJuZi5jDQo+ID4gc2F5cyBpdCdzIGJ5IENocmlz IE5ld21hbi4NCj4gDQo+IGFjdHVhbGx5IEkgdXNlZCBteSBleWViYWxscy4uLiBteSBzeW50YXgg Y2hlY2tlciBpcyBmYXIgbGVzcyBnb29kIHRoYW4gdGhlDQo+IG5ld2VyIGFsdGVybmF0aXZlcy4N Cj4gDQo+IEFuZCBpdCdzIG5vdCBzdHJpY3RseSBhbiBBQk5GIGVycm9yIC0gbXkgb2JqZWN0aW9u IGlzIHRvIGl0IGJlaW5nDQo+IHN1cGVyZmx1b3VzIC0gaXQgd2lsbCBsZWF2ZSBwZW9wbGUgd2hv IGtub3cgdGhhdCBBQk5GIGlzIGNhc2UgaW5zZW5zaXRpdmUNCj4gYWJvdXQgIiAiIHN0cmluZ3Mg aHVudGluZyBmb3IgdGhlIHNlbnRlbmNlIHRoYXQgc2F5cyAiaW4gdGhpcyBjYXNlLCB3ZSdyZQ0K PiB1c2luZyBBQk5GIGFzIGlmIGl0IHdhcyBjYXNlIHNlbnNpdGl2ZSIgKHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vbmUp LCBhbmQgbWFraW5nIHBlb3BsZQ0KPiB3aG8gZG9uJ3Qga25vdyB0aGF0IEFCTkYgaXMgY2FzZSBp bnNlbnNpdGl2ZSBhc3N1bWUgdGhhdCBpdCBpcy4NCj4gDQo+IEkgcHJlZmVyIG5vdCB0byBoYXZl IGl0LiBCdXQgaWYgdGhlIFdHIGhhcyByZWFjaGVkIGNvbnNlbnN1cyB0aGF0IHRoaXMNCj4gc2hv dWxkIGJlIHRoYXQgd2F5Li4uLiBzaWdoOyBJJ2xsIGxldCB5b3UgaGF2ZSBpdC4NCj4gDQo+ICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSGFyYWxkDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0K PiBMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L2x0cnUNCg== --===============1016412429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1016412429==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 08 11:13:20 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkOOW-0002HX-2y; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:13:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkOOR-0002En-Qa for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:13:18 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04374 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EkOOF-0006Ft-88 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:13:04 -0500 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB8GCSvJ028894; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:15:09 -0800 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Erkki Kolehmainen'" , Mark Davis Subject: RE: [Ltru] BCP vs. STD Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:15:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I'm strongly in favor of STD rather than BCP, since the algorithms are still undergoing non-trivial revision (e.g., RFC 3066 didn't HAVE any script tags or "Suppress-Script", so the handling of wildcards has changed). This smells strongly like a Proposed Standard. It is clearly NOT fully baked (the usual intent of BCP). Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > Erkki Kolehmainen > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:17 AM > To: Mark Davis > Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] BCP vs. STD > > > I tend to agree with Mark on this. > > Erkki I. Kolehmainen > > Mark Davis wrote: > > > As long as it doesn't delay 3066bis, I don't really have a strong > > opinion either way. > > > > Mark > > > > Doug Ewell wrote: > > > >> Martin Duerst wrote: > >> > >>> Currently, I understand Frank and Addison are for going > the STD route. > >>> Harald and me [as a technical contributor] seem to be > okay with that. > >>> What about others? > >> > >> > >> > >> Agnostic. Whatever you guys feel is best in this regard. > >> > >> -- > >> Doug Ewell > >> Fullerton, California, USA > >> http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Ltru mailing list > >> Ltru@ietf.org > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > >> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 08 16:17:18 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkT8g-0005V2-CR; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:17:18 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkT8d-0005Tn-Vg for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:17:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15181 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:16:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EkT8Z-0002sR-CB for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:17:14 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF7925973B; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:16:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20276-03; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:16:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.160] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171D3259737; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:16:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:19:22 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: "McDonald, Ira" , "'Erkki Kolehmainen'" , Mark Davis Subject: RE: [Ltru] BCP vs. STD Message-ID: <992E10AAEC1F2A8C9CBB8217@svartdal.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --On torsdag, desember 08, 2005 08:15:04 -0800 "McDonald, Ira" wrote: > Hi, > > I'm strongly in favor of STD rather than BCP, since the > algorithms are still undergoing non-trivial revision (e.g., > RFC 3066 didn't HAVE any script tags or "Suppress-Script", > so the handling of wildcards has changed). > > This smells strongly like a Proposed Standard. It is > clearly NOT fully baked (the usual intent of BCP). The intent of a BCP is, in this case, "something that can only be one thing at a time". 3066bis was there because IANA can only operate one registry for one thing. It's absolutely no skin off anyone's nose if some applications/standards refer to 3066 for their language ranges, and other applications refer to this one - as long as the refs are clear, they can live side by side. So standards-track appears reasonable to me. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 09 15:50:32 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkpCK-0004nd-2o; Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:50:32 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EkpBs-0004h4-PF; Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:50:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28507; Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:49:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [132.151.6.50] (helo=newodin.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EkpC6-0002W3-Ob; Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:50:19 -0500 Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EkpBp-0006Tc-U8; Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:50:01 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:50:01 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Matching of Language Tags Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt Pages : 30 Date : 2005-12-9 This document describes different mechanisms for comparing, matching, and evaluating language tags. Possible algorithms for language negotiation or content selection, filtering, and lookup are described. This document, in combination with RFC 3066bis (replace "3066bis" with the RFC number assigned to draft-ietf-ltru-registry-14), replaces RFC 3066, which replaced RFC 1766. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-12-9145956.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-matching-08.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-12-9145956.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:04:58 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: comments on matching-8.txt - markus Thread-Index: AcX+q+2YF0CXqG4VSHSCK4NAGR8KMgAzF6JA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Markus Scherer" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Dec 2005 01:05:00.0749 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E170FD0:01C5FF81] X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2e8fc473f5174be667965460bd5288ba Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] RE: comments on matching-8.txt - markus X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0196928909==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0196928909== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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(unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 13 Dec 2005 01:38:57 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 24.23.194.196 Message-ID: <439E262E.4010503@icu-project.org> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:38:54 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Addison Phillips References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 83e9494d829b08cc3f644ef6ac1b9bd4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id UAA05842 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: comments on matching-8.txt - markus X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The comments and dispositions look good. One item: Zzzz already exists=20 as a 15924 value, and is thus already allowed, so it is orthogonal to=20 this group. The UTC proposal is to tag reserved (not yet allocated to=20 characters) code points with it. Mark Addison Phillips wrote: >Comments follow. Thanks again for your comments. As noted, I have copied= the list on this message, which I hope you don't mind. > >Addison > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture.=20 > > =20 > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Markus Scherer [mailto:markus.icu@gmail.com] >>Sent: 2005=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5 15:38 >>To: mark.davis@icu-project.org; Addison Phillips >>Subject: comments on matching-8.txt - markus >> >>(Not to the list. Feel free to forward to there if you think it's usefu= l.) >>Reading matching-8.txt by invitation from Mark... >> >>1. Introduction >>...Protocols that >> implement a matching scheme either need to choose a particular optio= n >> or indicate that the particular options is left to the specific >> implementation to decide. >> >>Remove plural 's' from last "options". >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >It really should be edited more thoroughly than that. Actually, I questi= on putting this quasi-normative text into the introduction, but for now a= m suggesting we change it to: > >-- >Protocols that implement a matching scheme either need to specify each p= articular choice or indicate the options that are left to the implementat= ion to decide. >-- > =20 > >>2.1. Basic Language Range >>...The basic >> language range is defined by the following the ABNF[RFC4234]: >> >>The last "the" doesn't belong - just remove? replace by "in"? say "gram= mar >>in"?? >>Usage in 2.2 suggests just dropping the "the". >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >It's the result of a poorly implemented edit. Removed the extra article. > > =20 > >>3.1. Choosing a Type of Matching >>... For example, if process were to... >> >>-> if _a_ process were to... >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >Done. > =20 > >>3.2. Filtering >> Filtering is used to select the set of content that matches a given >> language priority list. ... >> >>There seems to be some arbitrary jumping between language priority >>lists and language ranges here. >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >Done. > =20 > >>Attempted clarified paragraph for a local fix: >> >> Filtering is used to select the set of content that matches a given >> language priority list. It is called "filtering" because this set o= f >> content may contain no items at all or it may return an arbitrarily >> large number of matching items-- >>as many items as whose language tags match any of the language ranges >>in the language priority list, >>thus filtering out the non-matching >> content. >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 >=20 >My edit says: > >Filtering is used to select the set of content that matches a given l= anguage priority list. It is called "filtering" because this set of conte= nt may contain no items at all or it may return an arbitrarily large numb= er of matching items: as many items as match the language priority list, = thus "filtering out" the non-matching items. > > =20 > >>3.2.1. Filtering with Basic Language Ranges >>The special range "*" in a language priority list matches any tag. ... >> >>->"*" was not previously introduced as a special range. If should be >>introduced as such (with semantics) in 2.3. >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >It doesn't say it, as you say, early enough. I inserted this paragraph i= nto Section 2.0: > >Language ranges are similar in structure and content to language tags= : they consist of alphanumeric "subtags" separated by hyphens, plus a spe= cial subtag consisting of the character "*" (%2A, ASTERISK), which is use= d in ranges as a "wildcard", that is, a value that matches any subtag. > =20 > >>3.2.2. Filtering with Extended Language Ranges >> For example, the extended language range "de-*-DE" matches all of th= e >> following tags because the unspecified variant field is expanded to >> "*": >> >>-> Remove the "because" - it is incomplete and therefore misleading: >>Not just the variant field (better: subtag) is unspecified and >>expanded, but also every other subtag except language and region. >>(extlang, script, extension, privateuse...) >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >The text, as written, is correct, since the examples all match the expli= cit wildcard "*" to various subtags and the unspecified variant to a numb= er of variants. No extensions are presented (one private-use example is).= =20 > >In any case, I used: > >-- >For example, the extended language range "de-*-DE" matches all of the fo= llowing tags, in part because the unspecified variant, extension, and pri= vate-use subtags are expanded to "*": >-- > =20 > >>3.2.3. Scored Filtering >> Each extended language range and language tag MUST first be >> canonicalized by mapping grandfathered and obsolete tags into modern >> equivalents. ... >> >>I suggest to add a parallel "should" clause to earlier filtering sectio= ns. >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >One might argue that this prevents certain kinds of matching ("I want co= ntent labeled 'i-klingon' and NOT content labeled 'tlh'"). It also requir= es access to the subtag registry, which is something that we want to avoi= d. > >It would be useful to permit it, but SHOULD is stronger than just permis= sion. Instead, perhaps at the end of section 3.1 we could put: > >"Regardless of the matching scheme chosen, protocols and implementations= MAY canonicalize language tags and ranges by mapping grandfathered and o= bsolete tags or subtags into modern equivalents. If an implementation can= onicalizes..." > =20 > >> Language subtags 'und', 'mul', and the script subtag 'Zyyy' are >> converted to "*": ... >> >>I believe Mark recently suggested the script code "Zzzz" for use with >>unassigned Unicode code points (i.e., as an "unknown" script). Should >>it be added here? >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >I haven't seen that suggestion previously or I missed it. If he's sugges= ted it for inclusion into ISO 15924 (a better place, perhaps?), then draf= t-matching will pick it up by default. > =20 > >> For language tags that have no script subtag but whose language >> subtag's record in the IANA Language Subtag Registry contains the >> field "Suppress-Script", the script element in the quintuple MUST be >> set to the script subtag in the Suppress-Script field. This is >> necessary because [RFC3066bis] strongly recommends that users not us= e >> this subtag to form language tags and this document recommends that >> users not use them to form ranges. >> >>Does this document recommend that? If so, I missed it (entirely >>possible). I thought this document was mostly meant to be used without >>the registry. >>[Ah, I see it now in 4.1. Choosing Language Ranges - bad sequence for >>education...] >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >Some sections got moved around quite a bit during the last edit, making = the text less logical. In this case, there should be a forward reference,= combined with some editing of the paragraph in question. > =20 > >>Figures: I can't find Figures 1, 2, 4, 5 - or at least no captions >>with those "Figure x" values. >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >This was a comment on draft-07. I haven't gone through and suppressed th= e figure numbers yet or determined which, if any, should be numbered. Tha= nks for noticing. > =20 > >>Misspelling in 4.1: "interefer" -> "interfere" >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >Corrected.=20 > =20 > >>4.4. Length Considerations in Matching >>This seems to say an implementation must be able to handle 33, then >>later 42, characters. Pick one... >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >No, it says that 33 characters are required, but "at least 42" is a bett= er minimum. I am not fond of this section: I think it applicable only in = the most arcane cases as well as difficult to read. It might be an altern= ative subject of this old joke: > >Q: What is a camel? >A: It is a horse designed by a committee. > > =20 > >>What's the rationale for the recommended 62 characters? Why not 42, >>47, 63, whatever? >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >33, 42, and 62 are each "magic numbers" for language tags, indicating th= e longest possible tag containing specific combinations of subtags (or th= e maximum length). There is an extensive thread discussing these numbers = in the LTRU archive, although I can't find it right now (gmane is down??) > > =20 > >>Truncation: I propose that, if an extension or privateuse consists of >>a singleton followed by 2 or more subtags, the whole part including >>the singleton should always be removed. Removing just the last of >>multiple subtags inside an extension will likely produce nonsense. >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >Actually, it shouldn't. Badly designed extensions will produce that effe= ct (read the next-to-last paragraph in RFC 3066bis, section 3.7). Mostly,= though, matching extensions is a waste of time: they are supposed to be = orthogonal to tags, after all. > > =20 > >>Authors: >> >> Mark Davis (editor) >> IBM >> >> Email: mark dot davis at ibm dot com >> >>-> Mark needs an "us dot" after the "at". >> =20 >> >[Addison Phillips]=20 > >I us-dotted him. > =20 > >>markus >> >>-- >>Opinions expressed here may not reflect my company's positions unless >>otherwise noted. >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 13 14:06:59 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EmFUJ-0002GC-LJ; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:06:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EmFUI-0002FQ-2i for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:06:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA07563 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:05:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EmFVH-0004Kt-CB for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:08:00 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:06:35 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:06:34 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: comments on matching-8.txt - markus Thread-Index: AcX/hf0e17iHKuiSSmmpqVk9DCWqigAkOTtQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Dec 2005 19:06:35.0662 (UTC) FILETIME=[5678F2E0:01C60018] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] RE: comments on matching-8.txt - markus X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2080131125==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2080131125== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TWFyayBvcGluZWQ6DQoNCj4gVGhlIGNvbW1lbnRzIGFuZCBkaXNwb3NpdGlvbnMgbG9vayBnb29k LiBPbmUgaXRlbTogWnp6eiBhbHJlYWR5IGV4aXN0cw0KPiBhcyBhIDE1OTI0IHZhbHVlLCBhbmQg aXMgdGh1cyBhbHJlYWR5IGFsbG93ZWQsIHNvIGl0IGlzIG9ydGhvZ29uYWwgdG8NCj4gdGhpcyBn cm91cC4gVGhlIFVUQyBwcm9wb3NhbCBpcyB0byB0YWcgcmVzZXJ2ZWQgKG5vdCB5ZXQgYWxsb2Nh dGVkIHRvDQo+IGNoYXJhY3RlcnMpIGNvZGUgcG9pbnRzIHdpdGggaXQuDQoNCkkgZ3Vlc3MgdGhl IHF1ZXN0aW9uIGlzIHdoZXRoZXIgd2UgbmVlZCB0byBzYXkgYW55dGhpbmcgaW4gcGFydGljdWxh ciBhYm91dCAnWnp6eicgaW4gbWF0Y2hpbmcgc2NoZW1lcy4gUHJpdmF0ZS11c2UgY2hhcmFjdGVy cyBoYXZlIGEgc2NyaXB0IG9mICdaeXl5Jywgc28gdGhhdCBpc24ndCBhbiBpc3N1ZS4gSSBjb25q ZWN0dXJlIHRoYXQgbm90aGluZyBuZWVkIGJlIHNhaWQgYWJvdXQgZWl0aGVyLCBhcyBuZWl0aGVy IHNvcnQgb2Ygc2NyaXB0IHdpbGwgbGlrZWx5IGJlIHVzZWQgdG8gaWRlbnRpZnkgYSBsYW5ndWFn ZS4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hp dGVjdCwgUXVlc3QgU29mdHdhcmUNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVh dHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4gDQoNCg== --===============2080131125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2080131125==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 13 14:42:36 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EmG2m-00035J-J9; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:42:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EmG2k-00033N-De for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:42:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11628 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay00.pair.com ([209.68.5.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EmG3i-0005V2-6G for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:43:35 -0500 Received: (qmail 9339 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2005 19:42:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 13 Dec 2005 19:42:20 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 24.23.194.196 Message-ID: <439F241A.4030805@icu-project.org> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:42:18 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Addison Phillips References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: comments on matching-8.txt - markus X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I don't think either needs to be called out. BTW, the UCD tags all characters that don't belong to a single script with Zyyy (Common) or with |/Qaai /|(Inherited, for non-spacing marks). But these are should both be resolved away when computing the script of a sequence of characters. See: http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/Scripts.txt http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/ Mark Addison Phillips wrote: >Mark opined: > > > >>The comments and dispositions look good. One item: Zzzz already exists >>as a 15924 value, and is thus already allowed, so it is orthogonal to >>this group. The UTC proposal is to tag reserved (not yet allocated to >>characters) code points with it. >> >> > >I guess the question is whether we need to say anything in particular about 'Zzzz' in matching schemes. Private-use characters have a script of 'Zyyy', so that isn't an issue. I conjecture that nothing need be said about either, as neither sort of script will likely be used to identify a language. > >Addison > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 13 15:03:41 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EmGNA-0008Bn-Vg; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:03:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EmGN9-0008BE-T4 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:03:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14546 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from nproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.182.198]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EmGOA-0006Ob-Or for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:04:46 -0500 Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id o25so633489nfa for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:03:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=I018bpweupTyl/jyA+PqR2IR48PIPjbmvOLgzZfJYG44P7XMnD+YYtlPdJDEb+stlM5sHKo2mv0uJreqYyBSzkRSQmUWp1/WRgBDzpOr3bVkLioc1Kq8hjC4nxEMDRErZY+5Z2LhZHIq6iWmm9nhJ1Ncfvrwktlqqa6QiD3qw78= Received: by 10.49.41.2 with SMTP id t2mr971538nfj; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.48.223.6 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:03:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6bb028490512131203n557f5ef2m9e83ff66de694eda@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:03:32 -0800 From: Markus Scherer To: Mark Davis In-Reply-To: <439F241A.4030805@icu-project.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <439F241A.4030805@icu-project.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: comments on matching-8.txt - markus X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org So this means that in matching-8.txt > Language subtags 'und', 'mul', and the script subtag 'Zyyy' are > converted to "*": ... neither Zyyy nor Zzzz should be called out as special subtags? markus On 12/13/05, Mark Davis wrote: > I don't think either needs to be called out. > > BTW, the UCD tags all characters that don't belong to a single script > with Zyyy (Common) or with |/Qaai /|(Inherited, for non-spacing marks). > But these are should both be resolved away when computing the script of > a sequence of characters. See: _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 13 15:11:44 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EmGUy-00029b-Fe; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:11:44 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EmGUx-00028M-Cv for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:11:43 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15564 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from nproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.182.193]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EmGW0-0006hA-2h for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:12:49 -0500 Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id x29so606745nfb for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:11:35 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=j5jHWMFu4q8oUzU+DEgGjZj7kwh0BZO4EnmxWRf89lFagkoQz/Q5BkAVG2E9I35Nw1Z3Su0/3ltFU+CEt9a7VRsBLCN2uxZ39zIUUNtQsPZjCmrGWAbiLIXzT9Y90lYRSs2N5mT2IrgMx3iEqRebAMx9ABxw5eAsguQNfnknFts= Received: by 10.49.5.7 with SMTP id h7mr971475nfi; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.48.223.6 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:11:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6bb028490512131211u2f5099e9rd686e72512e9045e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:11:34 -0800 From: Markus Scherer To: Addison Phillips In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: comments on matching-8.txt - markus X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thanks for your consideration of my comments. Dispositions look good. A couple more comments: On 12/12/05, Addison Phillips wrote: > Comments follow. Thanks again for your comments. As noted, I have copied = the list on this message, which I hope you don't mind. I don't mind at all. > > Truncation: I propose that, if an extension or privateuse consists of > > a singleton followed by 2 or more subtags, the whole part including > > the singleton should always be removed. Removing just the last of > > multiple subtags inside an extension will likely produce nonsense. > [Addison Phillips] > > Actually, it shouldn't. Badly designed extensions will produce that effec= t (read the next-to-last paragraph in RFC 3066bis, section 3.7). I was thinking of POSIX/CLDR-like extensions where one might have keyword-value pairs as in de-US-markus-c-coll-phone-strength-secondry-case-upperfst Since a vanilla truncation wouldn't know the structure of the extension, removing the whole extension seems better than removing trailing pieces. > Mostly, though, matching extensions is a waste of time: they are supposed= to be orthogonal to tags, after all. I agree. markus -- Opinions expressed here may not reflect my company's positions unless otherwise noted. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 14 05:36:33 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EmTzt-00024a-JZ; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 05:36:33 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EmTzi-00022D-50 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 05:36:31 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA02194 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 05:35:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EmU0i-0008MN-37 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 05:37:25 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id jBEAZqu10089; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:35:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 07cf_667c7568_6c8d_11da_9c64_0030482533a1; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:35:52 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jBEAYe1o025319; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:35:06 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051214162129.06c704a0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:23:43 +0900 To: Markus Scherer , Mark Davis From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: comments on matching-8.txt - markus In-Reply-To: <6bb028490512131203n557f5ef2m9e83ff66de694eda@mail.gmail.co m> References: <439F241A.4030805@icu-project.org> <6bb028490512131203n557f5ef2m9e83ff66de694eda@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 05:03 05/12/14, Markus Scherer wrote: >So this means that in matching-8.txt >> Language subtags 'und', 'mul', and the script subtag 'Zyyy' are >> converted to "*": ... > >neither Zyyy nor Zzzz should be called out as special subtags? Yes, agreeing with Mark and Addison, neither should be called out. If there was any place to call them out, it would have been the registry draft, and only to say that they are not relevant as scripts *for languages*. In matching, they don't have any special function at all. Regards, Martin. > >markus > >On 12/13/05, Mark Davis wrote: >> I don't think either needs to be called out. >> >> BTW, the UCD tags all characters that don't belong to a single script >> with Zyyy (Common) or with |/Qaai /|(Inherited, for non-spacing marks). >> But these are should both be resolved away when computing the script of >> a sequence of characters. See: > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 20 04:15:05 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EodXv-0004Wx-2G; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 04:12:35 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EodXu-0004Wg-Bs for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 04:12:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA00958 for ; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 04:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EodaI-00048e-M1 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 04:15:03 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772E625970B; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:11:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13793-10; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:11:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.160] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AD22596FC; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:11:33 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:15:05 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Mark Davis , Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: weights in scored filtering Message-ID: <97089993BE9B2DA02277D62C@svartdal.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <437E81C1.10002@icu-project.org> References: <437E81C1.10002@icu-project.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --On fredag, november 18, 2005 17:37:05 -0800 Mark Davis wrote: > We can do an integer only approach. Convert the q's into round(100/q). > > For filtering, we can't assume anything about the order of items in the > list that have the same q values. I have en, de, fr, it, nl. But my > English is significantly better than my German, which is somewhat better > than my French, which is significantly better than my Italian, etc. > > For lookup, we and everybody I know just uses the q values to reorder the > list. Then throws them away. So for lookup, ordering is very important. If we want to have ordering and q values both "work", we might have to bite the bullet and define them.... I'd suggest something like If an item in the list does not have a q value, its q value is assumed to be 0.75 times the q value of the preceding item in the list. If the first item in the list does not have a q value, its q value is assumed to be 1. So the two lists en;q=1.0, fr;q=0.75, de en, fr, de;q=0.5625 would be completely identical. That at least gives us a consistent, and mostly intuitive, interpretation of such lists. Harald _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 20 10:32:58 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EojU2-0003vs-Qg; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:32:58 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EojU0-0003v8-GE for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:32:56 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12797 for ; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay02.pair.com ([209.68.5.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EojWQ-0008KK-RE for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:35:28 -0500 Received: (qmail 89808 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2005 15:32:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 20 Dec 2005 15:32:46 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 24.23.194.196 Message-ID: <43A8241C.2090205@icu-project.org> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 07:32:44 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: weights in scored filtering References: <437E81C1.10002@icu-project.org> <97089993BE9B2DA02277D62C@svartdal.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <97089993BE9B2DA02277D62C@svartdal.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I suspect that would break a lot of people currently unless it were optional; as I said, we and at least some others just use the q values to re-sort. Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > > --On fredag, november 18, 2005 17:37:05 -0800 Mark Davis > wrote: > >> We can do an integer only approach. Convert the q's into round(100/q). >> >> For filtering, we can't assume anything about the order of items in the >> list that have the same q values. I have en, de, fr, it, nl. But my >> English is significantly better than my German, which is somewhat better >> than my French, which is significantly better than my Italian, etc. >> >> For lookup, we and everybody I know just uses the q values to reorder >> the >> list. Then throws them away. So for lookup, ordering is very important. > > > If we want to have ordering and q values both "work", we might have to > bite the bullet and define them.... I'd suggest something like > > If an item in the list does not have a q value, its q value is assumed > to be 0.75 times the q value of the preceding item in the list. > If the first item in the list does not have a q value, its q value is > assumed to be 1. > > So the two lists > > en;q=1.0, fr;q=0.75, de > > en, fr, de;q=0.5625 > > would be completely identical. > That at least gives us a consistent, and mostly intuitive, > interpretation of such lists. > > Harald > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 20 10:48:32 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eojj6-00005q-Jw; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:48:32 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eojj5-0008WU-FX for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:48:31 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15125 for ; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EojlW-0000Um-9P for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:51:03 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C482596EA; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:46:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24080-10; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:46:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.160] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 644BC2596E4; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:46:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:50:05 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: weights in scored filtering Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <43A8241C.2090205@icu-project.org> References: <437E81C1.10002@icu-project.org> <97089993BE9B2DA02277D62C@svartdal.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <43A8241C.2090205@icu-project.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --On tirsdag, desember 20, 2005 07:32:44 -0800 Mark Davis wrote: > I suspect that would break a lot of people currently unless it were > optional; as I said, we and at least some others just use the q values to > re-sort. My sneaky suspcion is that *all* implementations will behave bizarrely on a list that mixes sequences and Q values. So I don't think we have current implementations.... _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 20 11:57:48 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eoko8-00088d-JW; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:57:48 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eoko7-00088J-CJ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:57:47 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29742 for ; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:56:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EokqY-0004oD-Ll for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:00:19 -0500 Received: from alvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.50.13]) by irvbhxw03.quest.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:57:29 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: weights in scored filtering Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:57:28 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: weights in scored filtering Thread-Index: AcYFfK2XjNcInYM2QTqlkNnH9BhR0AABpqzQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" , "Mark Davis" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2005 16:57:29.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[769439E0:01C60586] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1119096866==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1119096866== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1119096866==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 21 02:21:24 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EoyHs-0006rs-Au; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 02:21:24 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EoyHq-0006rZ-Iu for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 02:21:22 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04338 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 02:20:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from DGBP7M81 ([69.162.95.23]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20051221072051.PLJE22124.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 02:20:51 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c605ff$12a488d0$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20051220170357.UMAL425.edge4.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:20:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: weights in scored filtering X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > If an item in the list does not have a q value, its q value is assumed > to > be 0.75 times the q value of the preceding item in the list. > If the first item in the list does not have a q value, its q value is > assumed to be 1. > > So the two lists > > en;q=1.0, fr;q=0.75, de > > en, fr, de;q=0.5625 > > would be completely identical. > That at least gives us a consistent, and mostly intuitive, > interpretation > of such lists. Yuck. Isn't there some way we can promote a mutually useful matching strategy without hard-coding these values into the RFC? 0.5625 may make mathematical sense, but I don't think it's a very intuitive value for humans to understand how matching is supposed to work. I had a hard enough time with the values {256, 128, 32, 4, 1} embedded in the description of scored filtering (any such sequence with a steeper slope than a decreasing Fibonacci sequence would have served the purpose equally well). I know the matching draft isn't expected to describe current practice, and I know we can't go back to the days when it was just a set of suggestions for implementers. I do think these concrete values are a rather long stride in the opposite direction. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California, USA http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 21 03:45:04 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eozaq-0001Fu-AD; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 03:45:04 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eozao-0001EV-LW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 03:45:02 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA10721 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 03:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cs.tut.fi ([130.230.4.42]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EozdO-00034m-Nj for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 03:47:43 -0500 Received: from spam.cs.tut.fi (unknown [10.11.18.2]) by mail.cs.tut.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01F0A09C for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:44:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.cs.tut.fi ([130.230.4.42]) by spam.cs.tut.fi (spam.cs.tut.fi [10.11.18.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16765-17 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:44:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from korppi.cs.tut.fi (korppi.cs.tut.fi [130.230.4.3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.cs.tut.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2BE1279 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:44:48 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:44:47 +0200 (EET) From: "Jukka K. Korpela" To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: weights in scored filtering In-Reply-To: <97089993BE9B2DA02277D62C@svartdal.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: References: <437E81C1.10002@icu-project.org> <97089993BE9B2DA02277D62C@svartdal.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at cs.tut.fi X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > --On fredag, november 18, 2005 17:37:05 -0800 Mark Davis > wrote: - - >> For lookup, we and everybody I know just uses the q values to reorder the >> list. Then throws them away. So for lookup, ordering is very important. > > If we want to have ordering and q values both "work", we might have to bite > the bullet and define them.... I'd suggest something like This is getting very confusing. How did we get here? Maybe it's just me, but it seems that a fairly complicated issue is getting unnecessarily complicated. Please excuse me if I have missed the reasons that make such complication unavoidable. > If an item in the list does not have a q value, its q value is assumed to be > 0.75 times the q value of the preceding item in the list. That sounds both arbitrary and incompatible with e.g. the Accept-Language header in HTTP, where the order is not significant (though the client might conceivable use the order as the last criterion in resolution) and the q value defaults to 1. Regarding what Mark Davis wrote, in the user side, it's rather the opposite. A user interface for setting language preferences in a web browser typically lets the user select a set of languages and put them into some order. This order will, invisibly to the user, dictate the q values that the browser generates into an Accept-Language header. Browsers use different algorithms in computing the values. Thus, the user who selects, say, French and English in that order does not really know (and cannot control) how much better her French is than her English according to the preference settings. However, although this is mostly just Greek to most users, the principle that preferences are not a simple ordered list is an important one. Some quantitative indicators are needed. I don't know about anything essentially better than the q range from 0 to 1. It would seem natural to keep things that way, even though we know that the actual q values are, at present, rather arbitrary even if the user knows what he is doing. This means that the order in which the languages or locales are listed somewhere should be completely immaterial; it should be treated as a linearized set, not as an ordered list. This allows ties, i.e. languages with exactly the same q value, and I think that's _good_. If the user is allowed to express language preferences, then a choice that makes two languages _equally_ preferred should be allowed too (without raising any theoretical objections about the impossibility of knowing two languages exactly equally well). Naturally, this does not prevent anyone from doing whatever he wants with the preferences and q values, such as using them _only_ to set up an ordered list, or to filter out everything below a specific q value. -- Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 21 06:56:38 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ep2aD-0002PE-UN; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 06:56:37 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ep2aC-0002NS-CB for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 06:56:36 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA00517 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 06:55:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ep2YB-00086o-Ba for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:54:31 +0100 Received: from pd9fba90a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.251.169.10]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:54:31 +0100 Received: from nobody by pd9fba90a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:54:31 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:51:01 +0100 Organization: Lines: 56 Message-ID: <43A941A5.98@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pd9fba90a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: weights in scored filtering X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > As far as I know, the only implementation of scored > filtering--an algorithm proposed by John Cowan on this > list as a thought experiment--is the one on my website. I've compared his original idea 8-4-2-1 with other weights. Admittedly I'm a bit lost since you went to five dimensions and a distance metric. IIRC it was Mark who said that any scheme involving "divide by Q" has a problem with Q = 0. You can avoid this problem by scoring, with highest score = ideal match, followed by "multiply with Q". To switch from some kind of distance metric (0 = ideal) to scoring (0 = worst) you only need the maximal distance M. If that exists. Since you have in theory unlimited numbers of variants and/or extensions it could be M = infinity, and you lose. Otherwise you can define score := M - distance to get some scores in the range 0 .. M, multiply it with any given Q in the range 0.00 .. 1.00, and that's your final score for the language-range in question. Implementations can of course scale it down to 0..100, 100 for M (best score), 50 for M/2, 0 for 0, etc., but we don't need to discuss such implementation details in an RFC. The language-range with the highest final score wins. It's also unnecessary to discuss draws: Implementations can be free to handle this in any way they wish, not restricted to "reboot", "offer checkbox with 1,000,000 possible choices", or similar stunts... ;-) > If a particular form of language priority list does not > assign weights to one or more of its items, then a weight > of 0.75 times the previous item in the list is suggested > (with the first item being assumed to have a weight of 1.0) With 0.75 you get about 19 steps until you drop below 0.005. With 0.9 you get more steps. That's irrelevant, isn't it ? Any number greater than 0 and smaller than 1 will do. Again an implementation detail, implementations may offer to transform prioritized lists of language-ranges into some kind of weighted lists by assigning appropriate weigths: The Q as we know it, any sequence 1 = q(1) > q(2) etc. will do, if 1 > q(n) > q(n+1) > 0 for all n > 1. Is it really desirable to discuss such details in an Internet standard ? Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 21 21:52:03 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EpGYl-00088j-QL; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:52:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EpGYj-00086o-L4 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:52:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA15597 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay00.pair.com ([209.68.5.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EpGbS-0000gc-QI for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:54:52 -0500 Received: (qmail 88946 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2005 02:51:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 22 Dec 2005 02:51:57 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 24.23.194.196 Message-ID: <43AA14C9.10909@icu-project.org> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:51:53 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand References: <437E81C1.10002@icu-project.org> <97089993BE9B2DA02277D62C@svartdal.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <97089993BE9B2DA02277D62C@svartdal.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org, "cldr@unicode.org" , Michel Suignard Subject: [Ltru] FYI: CLDR update X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org For those who might be interested, I just updated CLDR to use the data in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-06.txt for the language tag part of locale ids. As it turns out, we then only have the following few extensions: {"language", "root", "Description", "Root", "CLDR", "True"}, {"variant", "POLYTONI", "Description", "Polytonic Greek", "CLDR", "True"}, {"variant", "REVISED", "Description", "Revised Orthography", "CLDR", "True"}, {"variant", "SAAHO", "Description", "Dialect", "CLDR", "True"}, {"region", "QE", "Description", "European Union", "CLDR", "True"}, The code for root is just a special case for CLDR, and I don't see a good alternative in 3066bis. Possibly we could have used "und", but by now it is pretty baked. POLYTONI we probably want to recast as a private use script code, eg. Qaap. That way inheritance will work better. REVISED is only used for Armenian (hy-AM-REVISED) (cf http://dev.icu-project.org/cgi-bin/locale-bugs/confirm?id=938) Question: according to http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hye there is no code for Eastern vs Western Armenian. Will ISO be adding this as part of the next revision? It appears that there are distinct differences in orthography that we need to account for, at least according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language SAAHO is only used in ar-ER-SAAHO in CLDR (http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/aa_ER_SAAHO.xml) According to SIL, we could be using ssy for that. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aar http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ssy Although not now in the registry, it looks like it will come in with the next version of ISO 639, so we could deprecate it at that point. QE is also a special case for CLDR, needed internally for other purposes, and is not used in composing language tags. Mark Cc'ing Michel, since he is my best Armenian contact. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 23 03:07:25 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EphxV-0006mZ-B1; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 03:07:25 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EphxU-0006mR-5R for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 03:07:24 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA09825 for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 03:06:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from DGBP7M81 ([69.162.95.23]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20051223080653.IRCR22124.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 03:06:53 -0500 Message-ID: <001e01c60797$cdb64b10$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20051222170749.GJXU14994.edge6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:06:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: FYI: CLDR update X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > {"language", "root", "Description", "Root", "CLDR", "True"}, > ... > The code for root is just a special case for CLDR, and I don't see a > good alternative in 3066bis. Possibly we could have used "und", but by > now it is pretty baked. I confess I'm not familiar enough with CLDR to know what the purpose of "root" is, or how it relates to "undetermined language." I assume you've made the right choice here. It would be nice to have some way of knowing whether "root" will eventually be an assigned ISO 639-6 alpha-4 code element. > {"variant", "POLYTONI", "Description", "Polytonic Greek", > "CLDR", "True"}, > ... > POLYTONI we probably want to recast as a private use script code, eg. > Qaap. That way inheritance will work better. Is polytonic Greek considered a separate script from monotonic Greek more than it is considered a variant? So far variants have been employed for orthographic reforms and language dialects. I realize many members of this list (not to say Mark in particular) do not care for variants in general. > {"variant", "REVISED", "Description", "Revised Orthography", > "CLDR", "True"}, > ... > REVISED is only used for Armenian (hy-AM-REVISED) > (cf http://dev.icu-project.org/cgi-bin/locale-bugs/confirm?id=938) This seems to me to be an excellent use of a variant subtag. I wonder if "revised" is a bit too generic; the variant subtags "1901" and "1996" were chosen after discussions on ietf-languages revealed that "trad" (for "traditional") was considered too generic. > Question: according to > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hye there is no code > for Eastern vs Western Armenian. Will ISO be adding this as part of > the next revision? It appears that there are distinct differences in > orthography that we need to account for, at least according to > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language If the only demonstrable differences are in orthography, would ISO really consider splitting the two? Is that within the scope of 639-2? What about 639-3? > {"variant", "SAAHO", "Description", "Dialect", "CLDR", > "True"}, > ... > SAAHO is only used in ar-ER-SAAHO in CLDR > (http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/aa_ER_SAAHO.xml) > According to SIL, we could be using ssy for that. > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aar > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ssy > > Although not now in the registry, it looks like it will come in with > the next version of ISO 639, so we could deprecate it at that point. As a dialect of Afar, this looks suitable for a variant. The ISO 639-3 site confirms that "ssy" is planned as the code element for Saho. > {"region", "QE", "Description", "European Union", "CLDR", > "True"}, > ... > QE is also a special case for CLDR, needed internally for other > purposes, and is not used in composing language tags. QE is not a valid private-use region subtag, so seems inappropriate for this use. Valid private-use region subtags are AA, QM through QZ, XA through XZ, and ZZ. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California, USA http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 23 04:43:05 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EpjS4-0000iB-Vm; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 04:43:05 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EpjS3-0000hc-2w for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 04:43:03 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA19030 for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 04:41:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EpjRr-0008M1-HK for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:42:51 +0100 Received: from pd9fba8d5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.251.168.213]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:42:51 +0100 Received: from nobody by pd9fba8d5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:42:51 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:41:57 +0100 Organization: Lines: 16 Message-ID: <43ABC665.45B1@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20051222170749.GJXU14994.edge6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <001e01c60797$cdb64b10$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pd9fba8d5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Re: FYI: CLDR update X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: >> {"region", "QE", "Description", "European Union", "CLDR", "True"}, [...] > QE is not a valid private-use region subtag, so seems > inappropriate for this use. Valid private-use region subtags > are AA, QM through QZ, XA through XZ, and ZZ. In "I've to make up something for EU" mode I'd take EU. As long as I don't claim that it's a valid country code it's a calculated risk: Will they ever remove their "exceptional reservation" _and_ give EU to something that's seriously different from the pseudo-ccTLD EU ? Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 23 05:04:44 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Epjn2-0007C9-MP; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:04:44 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Epjn1-0007B4-KU for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:04:43 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA21034 for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from lonsmimeo.rit.reuters.com ([192.165.213.23] helo=lonsmime04.rit.reuters.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Epjq1-0003QG-03 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:07:50 -0500 Received: from eupig1 (unverified [196.7.183.8]) by lonsmime04.rit.reuters.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.19) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:04:23 +0000 Message-ID: Received: from dtcsmsxb01.emea.ime.reuters.com ([10.5.150.13]) by eupig1.dtc.lon.ime.reuters.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #30693) with ESMTP id <0IRY00DJ03ZAT6@eupig1.dtc.lon.ime.reuters.com>; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:04:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LONSMSXM06.emea.ime.reuters.com ([10.14.113.22]) by dtcsmsxb01.emea.ime.reuters.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC (5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:04:22 +0000 Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:04:20 +0000 From: Misha Wolf Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: FYI: CLDR update To: Frank Ellermann , ltru@ietf.org MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: FYI: CLDR update Thread-Index: AcYHpWOGWa8ZfxuoS2CHMHcyXitQYgAAj8tg Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2005 10:04:22.0106 (UTC) FILETIME=[3F17C3A0:01C607A8] X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IMO, they could not do such a thing, as the ISO 4217=20 EUR code depends on the EU code. Note that the ISO 4217 MA had to reverse their daft=20 decision on the Afganistan Manat which involved the=20 use of a 3-letter code which included a 2-letter=20 prefix not allocated to Afganistan. Misha -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank Ellermann [...] In "I've to make up something for EU" mode I'd take EU. As long as I don't claim that it's a valid country code it's a calculated risk: Will they ever remove their "exceptional reservation" _and_ give EU to something that's seriously different from the pseudo-ccTLD EU ? To find out more about Reuters visit www.about.reuters.com Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, exc= ept where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Reuters Lt= d. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 23 11:22:38 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eppgk-0007S3-Bs; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:22:38 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eppgi-0007Rl-RG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:22:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02601 for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:21:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay02.pair.com ([209.68.5.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eppjk-0007U7-VR for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:25:46 -0500 Received: (qmail 80071 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2005 16:22:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 23 Dec 2005 16:22:27 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 24.23.194.196 Message-ID: <43AC243F.3050809@icu-project.org> Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:22:23 -0800 From: Mark Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: FYI: CLDR update References: <20051222170749.GJXU14994.edge6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <001e01c60797$cdb64b10$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <001e01c60797$cdb64b10$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thanks for your comments, and Frank's. Doug Ewell wrote: > Mark Davis wrote: > >> {"language", "root", "Description", "Root", "CLDR", "True"}, >> ... >> The code for root is just a special case for CLDR, and I don't see a >> good alternative in 3066bis. Possibly we could have used "und", but by >> now it is pretty baked. > > > I confess I'm not familiar enough with CLDR to know what the purpose > of "root" is, or how it relates to "undetermined language." I assume > you've made the right choice here. It would be nice to have some way > of knowing whether "root" will eventually be an assigned ISO 639-6 > alpha-4 code element. root has a special meaning, which is the fallback for data that is common to all languages. It would be hard to change it, so we hope it just never collides with a valid language subtag. > >> {"variant", "POLYTONI", "Description", "Polytonic Greek", >> "CLDR", "True"}, >> ... >> POLYTONI we probably want to recast as a private use script code, eg. >> Qaap. That way inheritance will work better. > > > Is polytonic Greek considered a separate script from monotonic Greek > more than it is considered a variant? So far variants have been > employed for orthographic reforms and language dialects. I realize > many members of this list (not to say Mark in particular) do not care > for variants in general. Inheritance tends to work better if major differences in orthography that cross country boundaries are in the script field. But there is no decision on that. > >> {"variant", "REVISED", "Description", "Revised Orthography", >> "CLDR", "True"}, >> ... >> REVISED is only used for Armenian (hy-AM-REVISED) >> (cf http://dev.icu-project.org/cgi-bin/locale-bugs/confirm?id=938) > > > This seems to me to be an excellent use of a variant subtag. I wonder > if "revised" is a bit too generic; the variant subtags "1901" and > "1996" were chosen after discussions on ietf-languages revealed that > "trad" (for "traditional") was considered too generic. > >> Question: according to >> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hye there is no code >> for Eastern vs Western Armenian. Will ISO be adding this as part of >> the next revision? It appears that there are distinct differences in >> orthography that we need to account for, at least according to >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language > > > If the only demonstrable differences are in orthography, would ISO > really consider splitting the two? Is that within the scope of 639-2? > What about 639-3? Yes, REVISED is pretty generic, and should really be replaced. > >> {"variant", "SAAHO", "Description", "Dialect", "CLDR", >> "True"}, >> ... >> SAAHO is only used in ar-ER-SAAHO in CLDR >> (http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/aa_ER_SAAHO.xml) >> According to SIL, we could be using ssy for that. >> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aar >> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ssy >> >> Although not now in the registry, it looks like it will come in with >> the next version of ISO 639, so we could deprecate it at that point. > > > As a dialect of Afar, this looks suitable for a variant. The ISO > 639-3 site confirms that "ssy" is planned as the code element for Saho. Yes, and once that is the case we can deprecate SAAHO and use ssy. > >> {"region", "QE", "Description", "European Union", "CLDR", >> "True"}, >> ... >> QE is also a special case for CLDR, needed internally for other >> purposes, and is not used in composing language tags. > > > QE is not a valid private-use region subtag, so seems inappropriate > for this use. Valid private-use region subtags are AA, QM through QZ, > XA through XZ, and ZZ. Luckily QE is not yet in a released version -- just introduced very recently. So we can correct that to be a better code. Perhaps XE > > -- > Doug Ewell > Fullerton, California, USA > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 23 13:39:02 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eprok-0005Wj-4Q; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:39:02 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eproj-0005Wb-BG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:39:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19907 for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury.ccil.org ([192.190.237.100]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eprrm-00044M-NP for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:42:12 -0500 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Eproc-00018B-SN; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:38:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:38:54 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: FYI: CLDR update Message-ID: <20051223183854.GE1575@ccil.org> References: <20051222170749.GJXU14994.edge6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <001e01c60797$cdb64b10$050aa8c0@DGBP7M81> <43AC243F.3050809@icu-project.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43AC243F.3050809@icu-project.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > root has a special meaning, which is the fallback for data that is > common to all languages. It would be hard to change it, so we hope it > just never collides with a valid language subtag. That sounds like a hybrid between "und" and "i-default". Still, "root" is not possible as an RFC 3066 or RFC 3066bis tag, so it's safe enough in this limited application. > >Is polytonic Greek considered a separate script from monotonic Greek > >more than it is considered a variant? So far variants have been > >employed for orthographic reforms and language dialects. I realize > >many members of this list (not to say Mark in particular) do not care > >for variants in general. > > Inheritance tends to work better if major differences in orthography > that cross country boundaries are in the script field. But there is no > decision on that. I continue to think that poly/mono is best treated as a script-variant distinction. These distinctions aren't treated specially by 3066bis; perhaps they should be looked at more closely on the next round. > >>Question: according to > >>http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hye there is no code > >>for Eastern vs Western Armenian. Will ISO be adding this as part of > >>the next revision? It appears that there are distinct differences in > >>orthography that we need to account for, at least according to > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language > > > > > >If the only demonstrable differences are in orthography, would ISO > >really consider splitting the two? Is that within the scope of 639-2? > >What about 639-3? I understand the article (which is not exactly a proper linguistic description) to mean that certain phonemic distinctions have been lost in Western Armenian dialects, so that some words in the common orthography have become homophonous. That sounds like the very opposite of an orthographic distinction. Since SIL is the registrar for 639-3, it is unlikely in the extreme that 639-3 will make a distinction that the Ethnologue does not (or vice versa). > Luckily QE is not yet in a released version -- just introduced very > recently. So we can correct that to be a better code. Perhaps XE Perhaps, or maybe using EU is the Right Thing after all. It's surely not going to be used for any country in even the remote future. -- Go, and never darken my towels again! John Cowan --Rufus T. Firefly www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru