From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 01 00:24:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMdli-0000In-NL; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:23:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMdlh-0000GE-9A for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:23:53 -0500 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMdld-0001vr-KE for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:23:53 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l215NkDD011464 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:23:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 5307_0734d602_c7b5_11db_99cc_0014221fa3c9; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:23:46 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:59240) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:22:41 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070301134321.05779ec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 13:52:14 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Proposals for changes to latest draft In-Reply-To: <002b01c75b0c$427f1b70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> References: <002b01c75b0c$427f1b70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [chair hat off] At 16:44 07/02/28, Doug Ewell wrote: >John Cowan wrote: > >> 2.2.3 bullet 6 adds the notion that the hitherto private tag Qabx is to be usurped to mean "no written content". I agree that the "unwritten languages" script tag does not do the job here, but I deny that it is proper to steal a private-use tag, and I don't see any need to have such an entity at all. > >Using Qabx was my idea, to replace Mark's original proposal to use Zxxx for this purpose. Zxxx is the ISO 15924 code element meaning "code for unwritten languages." I take that quite literally to mean "languages that do not have any commonly accepted writing system," which admittedly would be a rather odd piece of information to put in a language tag, and which is very different IMHO from "content that happens not to be in a writing system," such as signed or spoken content. This was my interpretation, but I confirmed it with Michael, the ISO 15924 Registrar. If the ISO 15924 Registrar is fine with a tag "code for unwritten languages", then he should be fine with another tag "code for material not in a particular script". It would be weird if it were possible to tag audio tapes in a language that doesn't have any way to be written yet, but audio tapes e.g. in plain English wouldn't be taggable (assuming an old-style tagging system where you have to fill all fields with some data). Has such a proposal been made? I don't think it's urgently needed, but it would be way much better than a private tag. >When an ISO standard that establishes a coding structure provides for private-use code elements, as ISO 639 and 3166 and 10646 and 15924 do, applications that use those standards are generally permitted to allocate code elements from the private space for their own needs. For example, CLDR uses the ISO 3166 private-use code element QO for "Outlying Oceania." We are permitted to do similarly for the Language Subtag Registry. In theory yes. But it's a very bad idea. >I intentionally chose the last available ISO 15924 code as the least likely to cause conflict, since users of private codes tend to start at the bottom and work their way up, unless another approach yields better mnemonic value (which is in short supply among the 50 private codes in ISO 15924). In the sense of minimizing potential damage, that's not too bad. But using the private use area is still a bad idea. >Whether there is a need at all for a script subtag meaning "not written" is a battle I'll leave to others, but if there is, it should not be Zxxx. If there is a need, somebody should convince the registrar. I don't see any need for us (LTRU) to define anything like this. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 01 02:39:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMfsc-0007Zk-KD; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 02:39:10 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMfsb-0007Sl-Mc for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 02:39:09 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMfsX-0003gc-Tb for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 02:39:09 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l217d27B018324 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 16:39:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 730e_ecc2406c_c7c7_11db_8e9b_0014221f2a2d; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:39:02 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:39398) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 16:38:00 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070301163259.09920500@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:38:51 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , Mark Davis , "Doug Ewell" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Next draft X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison, Mark, Doug, The deadline for submission of drafts before the upcomming IETF is approaching rapidly (early next Monday). Addison, would it be possible for you to submit an updated draft including the points from Mark's recent proposal that seem to be without controversy so far? Doug, your draft is more recent than Addison's, so I leave it to you to decide whether you want to submit a new draft now or not. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 01 02:49:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMg2F-0004u7-JQ; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 02:49:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMg2D-0004tt-Dh for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 02:49:05 -0500 Received: from mta16.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMg2B-00050K-UN for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 02:49:05 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070301074900.VHYH3107.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 02:49:00 -0500 Message-ID: <008b01c75bd6$13a751d0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070301163259.09920500@localhost> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:49:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Next draft X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Any changes to 4645bis would be based on: 1. the new ISO 639-3 data files 2. changes to 4646bis I could generate a new draft based on (1), but there is always the possibility that (2) might render that new draft instantly obsolete. I'd rather see a revision to 4646bis first, and then update 4645bis so it covers both (1) and (2). -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 01 06:51:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMjoe-0007Rv-O7; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 06:51:20 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMjod-0007Rk-Tk for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 06:51:19 -0500 Received: from mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMjoc-0002UT-LW for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 06:51:19 -0500 Received: (qmail 45819 messnum 2893271 invoked from network[194.125.174.118/ts09-118.dublin.indigo.ie]); 1 Mar 2007 11:51:16 -0000 Received: from ts09-118.dublin.indigo.ie (HELO ?194.125.174.118?) (194.125.174.118) by mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 45819) with SMTP; 1 Mar 2007 11:51:16 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070301134321.05779ec0@localhost> References: <002b01c75b0c$427f1b70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20070301134321.05779ec0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marion Gunn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Proposals for changes to latest draft Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:53:39 +0000 To: LTRU Working Group X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.728) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Is it on to propose a tag simply labelled "audio"? mg On 1 Mar 2007, at 04:52, Martin Duerst: > ... > If the ISO 15924 Registrar is fine with a tag "code for unwritten =20 > languages", > then he should be fine with another tag "code for material not in a =20= > particular script". It would be weird if it were possible to tag =20 > audio tapes in a > language that doesn't have any way to be written yet, but audio =20 > tapes e.g. > in plain English wouldn't be taggable (assuming an old-style =20 > tagging system > where you have to fill all fields with some data). > > Has such a proposal been made? I don't think it's urgently needed, =20 > but it would > be way much better than a private tag... - - Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 01 11:01:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMnhq-0002hr-U9; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:00:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMnhp-0002hX-N8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:00:33 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMnhm-0002UO-BS for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:00:33 -0500 Received: from [10.72.72.68] (snvvpn1-10-72-72-c68.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.72.68]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l21FxuFD084320 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:59:58 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KOh82zlrseYVqepmRUE9TwylBRjGncRXMHXJnKNYlsLf7GevOwLGuIM6mlrmiDqZ Message-ID: <45E6F87B.8000907@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 07:59:55 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070301163259.09920500@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070301163259.09920500@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: Doug Ewell , ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Next draft X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I'll see if I can get to it today or tomorrow. I may even include some things that are still controversial. It is merely a draft, after all, and getting wording place will allow us to debate and close the issues. I'd like to see the next draft plus one be the working group last call draft if possible. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. Martin Duerst wrote: > Addison, Mark, Doug, > > The deadline for submission of drafts before the upcomming IETF is > approaching rapidly (early next Monday). Addison, would it be possible > for you to submit an updated draft including the points from Mark's > recent proposal that seem to be without controversy so far? > Doug, your draft is more recent than Addison's, so I leave it to you > to decide whether you want to submit a new draft now or not. > > Regards, Martin. > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 01 19:52:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMvzo-0003TG-1c; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:51:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMvzm-0003TA-5j for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:51:38 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMvzj-00036r-4s for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:51:38 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id k3so503089ugf for ; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:51:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=t7QZN22hOdsF95ZgAZ+rRykYiBPFXZiPjnWLgHiA5SIe0nJAU0y4vqpRpLIO+CH9MgTNW8sdWWH3oqv3dQYdzN1xSw08i7+dCSesgwlUwDPBSr8GDpA77gUzgraWhBbB70UGyTEf6FK/u9Ug7Uq2BGOmq0q60efqPG/H87CVRLg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=isyfHSux1QjP2aYLLCFsNCo33yLF68p937kqdg3DQjWXVuy7B8LbH1ulXlX0OteeIdUiTRMi9oaTzzQnGZHnHsqBInaqIcNZq0MrUf9tUqyIx4M9m2H+Tq9ly6BpfQaFtGzVJQ7Es4zi37SX043E3++rM2BM1/oNZr4BDGroAAA= Received: by 10.114.180.1 with SMTP id c1mr201078waf.1172791090657; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 15:18:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703011518y484478bav18ba461627f959e3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 15:18:10 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" In-Reply-To: <45E6F87B.8000907@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070301163259.09920500@localhost> <45E6F87B.8000907@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0842336a874ee6b3 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Cc: Doug Ewell , ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Next draft X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1340193409==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1340193409== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_78788_6923263.1172791090626" ------=_Part_78788_6923263.1172791090626 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, I'd prefer to have all the points in, even if marked with something like: [Ed Note: there is not yet resolution of the following text; it is included for discussion] . Sorry I've not been able to respond recently - I had to have surgery a couple of days ago and am still recuperating. Mark On 3/1/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > I'll see if I can get to it today or tomorrow. > > I may even include some things that are still controversial. It is > merely a draft, after all, and getting wording place will allow us to > debate and close the issues. I'd like to see the next draft plus one be > the working group last call draft if possible. > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > > Martin Duerst wrote: > > Addison, Mark, Doug, > > > > The deadline for submission of drafts before the upcomming IETF is > > approaching rapidly (early next Monday). Addison, would it be possible > > for you to submit an updated draft including the points from Mark's > > recent proposal that seem to be without controversy so far? > > Doug, your draft is more recent than Addison's, so I leave it to you > > to decide whether you want to submit a new draft now or not. > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > > -- Mark ------=_Part_78788_6923263.1172791090626 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, I'd prefer to have all the points in, even if marked with something like:
[Ed Note: there is not yet resolution of the following text; it is included for discussion] .

Sorry I've not been able to respond recently - I had to have surgery a couple of days ago and am still recuperating.

Mark

On 3/1/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
I'll see if I can get to it today or tomorrow.

I may even include some things that are still controversial. It is
merely a draft, after all, and getting wording place will allow us to
debate and close the issues. I'd like to see the next draft plus one be
the working group last call draft if possible.

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


Martin Duerst wrote:
> Addison, Mark, Doug,
>
> The deadline for submission of drafts before the upcomming IETF is
> approaching rapidly (early next Monday). Addison, would it be possible
> for you to submit an updated draft including the points from Mark's
> recent proposal that seem to be without controversy so far?
> Doug, your draft is more recent than Addison's, so I leave it to you
> to decide whether you want to submit a new draft now or not.
>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
>
> #-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-#-#   http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
>




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Mark ------=_Part_78788_6923263.1172791090626-- --===============1340193409== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1340193409==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 02 00:36:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN0RK-0002lP-UT; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:36:23 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN0RJ-0002ai-NT for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:36:21 -0500 Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN0RI-0007z0-B3 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:36:21 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=UwWDGhWk3d9mmnT1JBWl77ekSkqK2Si0gvRyc1loxrFRMIqBJxRP9euIAbaZnKH+; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.165.6.13] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1HN0RC-00071z-73 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:36:14 -0500 Message-ID: <000801c75c8c$b0860b20$6601a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 21:36:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8882c120543388a5fd71206019997a4430cf4e6fcd46f9ff19e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.165.6.13 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Revised Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 68th IETF Meeting in Prague, Czech Republic X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - fwd fyi > From: > To: > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:00 PM > Subject: Revised Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 68th IETF Meeting in Prague, Czech Republic > > All revised Internet-Drafts (version -01 and higher) must be submitted > by Monday, March 5th at 9:00 AM ET. > > Revised Internet-Drafts received after the cutoff date will not be made > available in the Internet-Drafts directory or announced until on or > after Monday, March 19th at 9:00 AM ET, when Internet-Draft posting > resumes. Please do not wait until the last minute to submit. > > Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. If you have any > questions or concerns, then please send a message to > internet-drafts@ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > FYI: The Internet-Draft cutoff dates as well as other significant dates > for the 68th IETF Meeting can be found at http://www.ietf.org/meetings/cutoff_dates_68.html. > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 02 02:23:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN272-0005Mk-S1; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 02:23:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN271-0005Mc-LA for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 02:23:31 -0500 Received: from mta16.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211] helo=mta16.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN26y-00054C-AT for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 02:23:31 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070302072325.UNXZ3107.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 02:23:25 -0500 Message-ID: <004b01c75c9b$aaf09bd0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 23:23:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposals for changes to latest draft X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Marion Gunn wrote: > Is it on to propose a tag simply labelled "audio"? Not a bad idea. We've already established that "unwritten" is not a script, and of course it's not a language or a region either. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 02 11:43:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNAp2-0001FF-UA; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 11:41:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNAp1-0001EB-GX for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 11:41:31 -0500 Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNAot-0008FZ-3u for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 11:41:31 -0500 Received: from DebbieLaptop ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:40:56 +0000 From: "Debbie Garside" To: , "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:40:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcdbTe9fBf7TujtlQZ+s7WB+mxAJswBmx8uQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 In-Reply-To: <789E617C880666438EDEE30C2A3E8D100105A60A@mailsrvnt05.enet.sharplabs.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: Subject: [Ltru] FYI Proposed New ISO/IEC Standard X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Message-Id: FYI http://lsadc.org/info/lsa-ansi-letter.cfm Best regards Debbie Garside Managing Director GeoLang Ltd Corner House Barn Street Haverfordwest Pembrokeshire SA61 1BW Wales UK Tel: 0044 1437 766441 Web: http://www.geolang.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 02 13:54:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNCtO-0000F4-DP; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 13:54:10 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNCtN-0000Ez-Cx for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 13:54:09 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNCtL-000224-4D for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 13:54:09 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HNCt8-0007i5-RD; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 13:53:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:53:54 -0500 To: Debbie Garside Message-ID: <20070302185354.GC15522@mercury.ccil.org> References: <789E617C880666438EDEE30C2A3E8D100105A60A@mailsrvnt05.enet.sharplabs.com> <200703021641.l22GexE3020758@pechora1.icann.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200703021641.l22GexE3020758@pechora1.icann.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] Re: FYI Proposed New ISO/IEC Standard X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Debbie Garside scripsit: > FYI > > http://lsadc.org/info/lsa-ansi-letter.cfm This is a complaint by the Linguistic Society of America that the proposed OOXML ISO standard (aka Microsoft Office XML) doesn't use RFC 4646 (they are on a broken 639-1 plus 3166-1 subset of RFC 1766, both parts mandatory). Another nail in the OOXML coffin. -- Do I contradict myself? John Cowan Very well then, I contradict myself. cowan@ccil.org I am large, I contain multitudes. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 03 15:27:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNaoD-0004kZ-AB; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:26:25 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNajX-00026D-Ld for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:21:35 -0500 Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.65]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNagJ-0000ZQ-Px for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:18:17 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=gLRYTnlwt3Qhmh2sMG3BhqstyvtndOghujO6gEq15qXQ32jMeZ57vD8og33vs4SN; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.165.6.13] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1HNagI-0007aV-Hp for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:18:14 -0500 Message-ID: <003901c75dd1$15e7a880$6601a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <002b01c75b0c$427f1b70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81><45E59469.1050804@yahoo-inc.com><004801c75b49$9f5b4ed0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45E5A9CE.7C48@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latestdraft) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:18:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8882c120543388a5fd7bffb461f9ddb7391bce9a63b8c9ee37c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.165.6.13 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:11 AM > Subject: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latestdraft) ... > Tag consumer aren't supposed to interpret the absence of a script > subtag wrt written vs. not written. If Karen wants this info within > the tags maybe she could use something like -x-text and -x-audio (?) ... Though of course she would be free to do so, as a technical contributor I think this information is on the very edge, if not beyond the edge, of what it makes sense to convey in "Tags for Identifying Languages". In particular, I think one would need to consider very carefully how such subtags would work with matching, particularly in the presence of legacy data. For the cases I've been able to imagine, it seems simpler to treat this dimension as distinct from the identification of the language itself. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 03 20:29:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNfXE-0005Xb-Qf; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 20:29:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNfXD-0005XN-Tp for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 20:29:11 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNfXC-0005wo-KP for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 20:29:11 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HNfWl-0000lV-NI for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 02:28:43 +0100 Received: from 212.82.251.167 ([212.82.251.167]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 02:28:43 +0100 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.167 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 02:28:43 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 02:27:50 +0100 Organization: Lines: 15 Message-ID: <45EA2096.4476@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <002b01c75b0c$427f1b70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81><45E59469.1050804@yahoo-inc.com><004801c75b49$9f5b4ed0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45E5A9CE.7C48@xyzzy.claranet.de> <003901c75dd1$15e7a880$6601a8c0@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.167 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: non-written content X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: >> maybe she could use something like -x-text and -x-audio (?) > Though of course she would be free to do so, as a technical contributor > I think this information is on the very edge, if not beyond the edge, > of what it makes sense to convey in "Tags for Identifying Languages". Yes. But "audio" etc. as _variants_ are IMO a horrible idea, while extensions could do. RFC 4646bis should have a clear MUST NOT about generic variants, and if that means to scrub the "fonipa" cruft, so be it. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 04 04:50:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNnLb-0006mI-KU; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 04:49:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNnLa-0006mB-Ku for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 04:49:42 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNnLW-0008Qx-Bs for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 04:49:42 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC16826C25F; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:49:12 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1988526C211; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:49:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FD858EB9B; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:49:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:49:10 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Gerard Meijssen Message-ID: <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> References: <001901c75a16$ac85f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45E3DD61.7010406@gmail.com> <002501c75a43$634e6820$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702262357o3d2ef494s9b5e2ad7cd91b9a@mail.gmail.com> <003001c75a46$d0d85ec0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702270036y54918b6cw6d65f406b4f2d60@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.17-2-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote a message of 18 lines which said: > Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RFC > 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of > the complications involved. Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20070117145745854 If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 04 12:26:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNuTp-0005QJ-TO; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 12:26:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNuTo-0005NE-Kg for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 12:26:40 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNuTn-0006lE-Bb for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 12:26:40 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070304172638.CQGZ2195.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:26:38 -0500 Message-ID: <001f01c75e82$44d90060$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:26:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Subject: [Ltru] Re: non-written content X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> Though of course she would be free to do so, as a technical >> contributor I think this information is on the very edge, if not >> beyond the edge, of what it makes sense to convey in "Tags for >> Identifying Languages". > > Yes. But "audio" etc. as _variants_ are IMO a horrible idea, while > extensions could do. I was trying to propose a solution to Karen's often-stated problem, even if it is not the solution she prefers. I thought this would be preferable to the all-too-common approach of "do nothing and hope the problem, and/or the requestor, goes away." Regarding extensions, I have no faith that this potentially very useful mechanism will ever get off the ground. There is significant inertia against them. > RFC 4646bis should have a clear MUST NOT about generic variants, and > if that means to scrub the "fonipa" cruft, so be it. If ietf-languages decides to "scrub" (i.e. deprecate) the "fonipa" and "fonupa" variants that were registered less than three months ago, I think we should go through the drafts and remove all instances of the word "stability" and replace them with "volatility." What we are working on is a standard, used and relied upon by applications worldwide. It is not a sandbox for us to play in. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 04 19:48:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO1N2-0007wx-89; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:48:08 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO1N1-0007ws-Ie for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:48:07 -0500 Received: from outbound-sin.frontbridge.com ([207.46.51.80] helo=outbound1-sin-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO1Mz-00073y-BW for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:48:07 -0500 Received: from outbound1-sin.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound1-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF55866715; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 00:47:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail55-sin-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.252.3]) by outbound1-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09511C90069; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 00:47:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail55-sin (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail55-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9095D210457; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 00:47:59 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail55-sin (MessageSwitch) id 1173055679517488_17724; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 00:47:59 +0000 (UCT) Received: from USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.251.196]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail55-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB48FF806C; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 00:47:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5) with ESMTP id 2007030416475592-245477 ; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:47:55 -0800 In-Reply-To: <003901c75dd1$15e7a880$6601a8c0@oemcomputer> To: "Randy Presuhn" Subject: Re: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latestdraft) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 CCH1 March 07, 2006 From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:46:14 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 03/04/2007 16:46:15, Serialize complete at 03/04/2007 16:46:16, Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 03/04/2007 16:46:16, Itemize by SMTP Server on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/04/2007 04:47:55 PM, Serialize by Router on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/04/2007 04:47:59 PM, Serialize complete at 03/04/2007 04:47:59 PM X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 29dc808194f5fb921c09d0040806d6eb Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0341607373==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0341607373== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0031153888257294_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0031153888257294_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Again, all I'm requesting is stronger language about NOT using script tags with audio language, such as the edits I suggested previously. I never said I wanted a generic audio tag. I'm not sure what was so controversial about my previous suggestions. Am I missing something? Regards, Karen Broome "Randy Presuhn" 03/03/2007 12:18 PM To "LTRU Working Group" cc Subject Re: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latestdraft) Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:11 AM > Subject: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latestdraft) ... > Tag consumer aren't supposed to interpret the absence of a script > subtag wrt written vs. not written. If Karen wants this info within > the tags maybe she could use something like -x-text and -x-audio (?) ... Though of course she would be free to do so, as a technical contributor I think this information is on the very edge, if not beyond the edge, of what it makes sense to convey in "Tags for Identifying Languages". In particular, I think one would need to consider very carefully how such subtags would work with matching, particularly in the presence of legacy data. For the cases I've been able to imagine, it seems simpler to treat this dimension as distinct from the identification of the language itself. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_alternative 0031153888257294_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Again, all I'm requesting is stronger language about NOT using script tags with audio language, such as the edits I suggested previously. I never said I wanted a generic audio tag.

I'm not sure what was so controversial about my previous suggestions. Am I missing something?

Regards,

Karen Broome


 
"Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>

03/03/2007 12:18 PM

To
"LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
cc
Subject
Re: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to        latestdraft)





Hi -

> From: "Frank Ellermann" <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>
> To: <ltru@lists.ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:11 AM
> Subject: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latestdraft)
...
> Tag consumer aren't supposed to interpret the absence of a script
> subtag wrt written vs. not written.  If Karen wants this info within
> the tags maybe she could use something like -x-text and -x-audio (?)
...

Though of course she would be free to do so, as a technical contributor
I think this information is on the very edge, if not beyond the edge, of what
it makes sense to convey in "Tags for Identifying Languages".

In particular, I think one would need to consider very carefully how such
subtags would work with matching, particularly in the presence of legacy
data.  For the cases I've been able to imagine, it seems simpler to treat
this dimension as distinct from the identification of the language itself.

Randy


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
--=_alternative 0031153888257294_=-- --===============0341607373== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0341607373==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 04 20:41:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO2Cy-0003uK-4k; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 20:41:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO2Cw-0003f6-4C for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 20:41:46 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO2Cu-0006wH-NF for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 20:41:46 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.126] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c126.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l251fTVU096799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:41:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Wp7zbNN53BLmOPuE7XM9KH/gNT3YXTKcF/Ig8AhEW0OyBPBA3oH6lFxGgQ2OKDuf Message-ID: <45EB7546.6080401@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 17:41:26 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latestdraft) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > I'm not sure what was so controversial about my previous suggestions. > Am I missing something? Nothing was controversial and I don't think you're missing anything. I believe we already have several such edits in the current draft. And the stronger language that was recently proposed I will put it into the draft when I next open it for editing (perhaps tonight, so that we don't miss the current deadline for submissions). Addison Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote: > > Again, all I'm requesting is stronger language about NOT using script > tags with audio language, such as the edits I suggested previously. I > never said I wanted a generic audio tag. > > > Regards, > > Karen Broome > > > > *"Randy Presuhn" * > > 03/03/2007 12:18 PM > > > To > "LTRU Working Group" > cc > > Subject > Re: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to > latestdraft) > > > > > > > > > Hi - > > > From: "Frank Ellermann" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:11 AM > > Subject: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to > latestdraft) > ... > > Tag consumer aren't supposed to interpret the absence of a script > > subtag wrt written vs. not written. If Karen wants this info within > > the tags maybe she could use something like -x-text and -x-audio (?) > ... > > Though of course she would be free to do so, as a technical contributor > I think this information is on the very edge, if not beyond the edge, of > what > it makes sense to convey in "Tags for Identifying Languages". > > In particular, I think one would need to consider very carefully how such > subtags would work with matching, particularly in the presence of legacy > data. For the cases I've been able to imagine, it seems simpler to treat > this dimension as distinct from the identification of the language itself. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 04 22:17:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO3hT-0005hP-1v; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:17:23 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO3hS-0005hK-BF for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:17:22 -0500 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO3hR-0001BO-0O for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:17:22 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070305031720.GKC6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 22:17:20 -0500 Message-ID: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 19:17:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Subject: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark's proposed changes to draft-4646bis [1] include the following in Section 4.4 (my emphasis): "... language tags SHOULD always be *created or generated* in a canonical form. A language tag is in canonical form when: ... 6. Any sequence of variant tags MUST be reordered such that for each variant subtags A and B, A comes before B if 1. A has no prefix and B has a prefix 2. or A and B are not ordered by #1, and A is part of a prefix (given the previous non-variant subtags) for B 3. or A and B are not ordered by #1 or #2, and A is alphabetically before B" Elsewhere I thought I remembered Mark saying that this step was intended for tag *consumers* to aid matching. I expressed concerns that tag producers would make the necessary distinction between prefix and no-prefix variants, and suggested that the "natural" order of thinking about certain tags might be at odds with the proposed canonical form. Is this step proposed as a constraint on tag producers or tag consumers? [1] http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfqr8rd5_4gh864p -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 04 22:21:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO3lQ-0002qX-CO; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:21:28 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO3lO-0002gg-Hu for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:21:26 -0500 Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO3lL-0001bZ-7A for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:21:26 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=touQPfDQmYCQAu4MEj0J5fNby9x2fI1YCcAQEp8Is/u6+XsSEFrR8sKFF3rPe8QO; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.38.107] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1HO3lK-0006Ru-Gq for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:21:22 -0500 Message-ID: <002f01c75ed5$5e149280$6601a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latestdraft) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 19:21:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8882c120543388a5fd76f7813dc4c44e42dfbfacfea661ec6c1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.38.107 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 4:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latestdraft) > > Again, all I'm requesting is stronger language about NOT using script tags > with audio language, such as the edits I suggested previously. I never > said I wanted a generic audio tag. Your proposal was fine with me. Others' suggestions to add something like "-audio" bother me. Perhaps your comment might be accommodated by way of a "tag wisely" example. In section 4.1 of the current i-d, we could insert an example after the sentence "Subtags SHOULD only be used where they add useful distinguishing information; extraneous subtags interfere with the meaning, understanding, and processing of language tags." Such an example might be "For example, inclusion of a script subtag would not be helpful in characterizing purely audio data." Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 01:00:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO6FR-0005vf-NG; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 01:00:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO6FQ-0005rE-Em for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 01:00:36 -0500 Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org ([208.145.81.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO6FL-0004FK-5o for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 01:00:36 -0500 Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l2560Q5F017961 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 01:00:26 -0500 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 172.22.0.51 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Free Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! Received: from [203.154.79.169] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO [192.168.1.101]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTPSA id 138336041; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 01:00:25 -0500 Message-ID: <45EBB1EE.3050401@sil.org> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:00:14 +0700 From: Martin Hosken User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070103) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Doug, > Mark's proposed changes to draft-4646bis [1] include the following in > Section 4.4 (my emphasis): > > "... language tags SHOULD always be *created or generated* in a > canonical form. A language tag is in canonical form when: > ... > 6. Any sequence of variant tags MUST be reordered such that for each > variant subtags A and B, A comes before B if > 1. A has no prefix and B has a prefix > 2. or A and B are not ordered by #1, and A is part of a prefix > (given the previous non-variant subtags) for B > 3. or A and B are not ordered by #1 or #2, and A is alphabetically > before B" > > Elsewhere I thought I remembered Mark saying that this step was > intended for tag *consumers* to aid matching. > > I expressed concerns that tag producers would make the necessary > distinction between prefix and no-prefix variants, and suggested that > the "natural" order of thinking about certain tags might be at odds > with the proposed canonical form. And then I produced an alternative canonicalisation that seems to address that. Interestingly there seems to be little response to it. Perhaps it needs simplifying a little: 1. A is a language variant and B is one of a script, or regional variant or has no prefix 2. A is a script variant and B is one of a regional variant or has no prefix 3. A is a regional variant and B has no prefix 4. A is part of a prefix for B 5. A is alphabetically before B Where a variant is considered: 1. A language variant if its prefix(es) or ancestoral prefix(es) consist only of language subtags 2. A script variant if its prefix(es) or ancestoral prefix(es) contains a script subtag but no regional subtag. 3. A regional variant if its prefix(es) or ancestoral prefix(es) contains a regional subtag Where the ancestoral prefixes are the prefixes of the ancestoral prefixes or the variant in question. Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 02:21:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO7VP-0000XL-KX; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 02:21:11 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO7VO-0000X6-CE for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 02:21:10 -0500 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO7VN-0000yy-2U for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 02:21:10 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070305072106.JCMQ6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 02:21:06 -0500 Message-ID: <002301c75ef6$d74f6960$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45EBB1EE.3050401@sil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:21:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken wrote: >> I expressed concerns that tag producers would make the necessary >> distinction between prefix and no-prefix variants, and suggested that >> the "natural" order of thinking about certain tags might be at odds >> with the proposed canonical form. > > And then I produced an alternative canonicalisation that seems to > address that. Interestingly there seems to be little response to it. > Perhaps it needs simplifying a little: > > 1. A is a language variant and B is one of a script, or regional > variant or has no prefix > 2. A is a script variant and B is one of a regional variant or has no > prefix > 3. A is a regional variant and B has no prefix > 4. A is part of a prefix for B > 5. A is alphabetically before B > > Where a variant is considered: > > 1. A language variant if its prefix(es) or ancestoral prefix(es) > consist only of language subtags > 2. A script variant if its prefix(es) or ancestoral prefix(es) > contains a script subtag but no regional subtag. > 3. A regional variant if its prefix(es) or ancestoral prefix(es) > contains a regional subtag > > Where the ancestoral prefixes are the prefixes of the ancestoral > prefixes or the variant in question. If anything, I think this more complex hierarchy would be even more difficult for tag producers to grok, and even less likely to be observed. My suggestion is to throw the burden of tag matching back onto the tag consumer. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 02:29:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO7dQ-00059W-WD; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 02:29:29 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO7dQ-00056l-28 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 02:29:28 -0500 Received: from mta15.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77] helo=mta15.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO7dO-0004Xs-MQ for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 02:29:28 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070305072926.TSDD2405.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 02:29:26 -0500 Message-ID: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:29:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: >> Again, all I'm requesting is stronger language about NOT using script >> tags with audio language, such as the edits I suggested previously. I >> never said I wanted a generic audio tag. > > Your proposal was fine with me. Others' suggestions to add something > like "-audio" bother me. Thank you for discreetly not mentioning my name. > Perhaps your comment might be accommodated by way of a "tag wisely" > example. In section 4.1 of the current i-d, we could insert an > example after the sentence "Subtags SHOULD only be used where they add > useful distinguishing information; extraneous subtags interfere with > the meaning, understanding, and processing of language tags." Such an > example might be "For example, inclusion of a script subtag would not > be helpful in characterizing purely audio data." That's not enough; what she is asking for is a MUST NOT, and I understand that, because inclusion of a script subtag for purely audio data would not be merely unhelpful, it would be absolutely inappropriate. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 07:10:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOC1A-0002ug-CY; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 07:10:16 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOC19-0002ub-Lp for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 07:10:15 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOC17-0006VY-T5 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 07:10:15 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l25CAAho014660 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:10:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 707e_77226082_cb12_11db_936d_0014221fa3c9; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:10:10 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:36182) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:09:10 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070305205830.0a4ca180@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:05:49 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants In-Reply-To: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 12:17 07/03/05, Doug Ewell wrote: >I expressed concerns that tag producers would make the necessary distinction between prefix and no-prefix variants, and suggested that the "natural" order of thinking about certain tags might be at odds with the proposed canonical form. > >Is this step proposed as a constraint on tag producers or tag consumers? [general technical comment] If it's on the tag consumer, then we have to either go back and revise RFC 4647, or we admit that this is only wishful thinking anyway. If it's on the producer, we risk that some will get it wrong, but whoever gets it wrong will have to pay themselves (their material not being found or their request not returning many documents). As for people not getting the right sequence, it shouldn't be magic for somebody to produce a Web page somewhere that gives the right advice (i.e. canonicalizes some input). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 12:21:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOGs7-0004SW-BY; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:21:15 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOGs6-0004PR-MM for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:21:14 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.170]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOGs4-0007Lu-Qx for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:21:14 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so1278968ugd for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:21:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; 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To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants In-Reply-To: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 19f22fc99f231849 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4a24b484706be629f915bfb1a3e4771 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1689249762==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1689249762== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_146327_7589085.1173115267061" ------=_Part_146327_7589085.1173115267061 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline MS4gSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IHdoeSB5b3UgdGhvdWdodCB0aGF0IEkgd3JvdGUgInRhZ3MgU0hPVUxE 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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1689249762==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 12:40:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHAq-00013J-2p; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:40:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHAo-00011U-J4 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:40:34 -0500 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.238]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHAV-000421-Hi for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:40:34 -0500 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i20so1537603wra for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:40:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rJzul00mKCTRypR/I/Jan1P/njnxJpyjyJhbWNzu0l3OGNl6pxqmh7KZ4YCXTN9zObHKxLrUioP6b7GFlHmkUSA/BfznpuJ+sm/7w5weFZCJhcncuBTdtar55A581gpyyjuX0XRm66iNYM+kMDklM+21ToBZJYWYxPahu+eyVf4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=mc0MAiZsLNrPVztq65mbjqssQskXK0VyBte65KESj4BkP3JsNciMcxiJQ+V1EqNkKUiCI2XoHVQqkwjzUfJn/52XouoF1f5f+CTYNa0w2E00HBT6xwj6Zokdrxxl8QUvcMpLE2i0yxAJk8VB3t0PQvV5V1r+tbXv4A+arFPepZ0= Received: by 10.114.126.1 with SMTP id y1mr1413546wac.1173116412258; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:40:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:40:12 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) In-Reply-To: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 32c1f5a1eeb9af93 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 287c806b254c6353fcb09ee0e53bbc5e Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2142010859==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2142010859== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_146963_30370158.1173116412208" ------=_Part_146963_30370158.1173116412208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I strongly disagree. 1. We, and I'm sure others, have the need to tag three kinds of information. 1. Any English (written or non-written) 2. Written English 3. Non-Written English Simply because you, Doug, don't see a need for this in your environment doesn't mean that others don't have a legitimate need. \We can express that with the following: #1 is handled with "en" #2 is handled with "en-Latn" (or other scripts for other languages) #3 is handled with "en-Zxxx" (the code for unwritten languages) or "en-Qabx" 2. Now, I bowed to Doug's desire not to use Zxxx in the text, although frankly there is no good reason for it. Some have said that Zxxx only applies to cases where the language is never written. But there is no implication of that in the text of 15924. When we are using any codes to mark content, it is the specific instance that is at issue, whether it is in Latn or Arab, not some metaphysical determination of whether the language could be written in Latn or Arab. The application of a script tag to content is not an application to the language itself, it is an application to the particular instance of content being tagged. If I legitimately tag content "abc-Zxxx" for an instance of a language Abc which is not written, it would be bizarre that because someone invents an orthography for Abc in 10 years that my tag somehow then becomes illegitimate. I don't see any reason to not apply Zxxx to language content that is not written. It satisfies a legitimate requirement, and does so within the structure of BCP 47. Mark On 3/4/07, Doug Ewell wrote: > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > >> Again, all I'm requesting is stronger language about NOT using script > >> tags with audio language, such as the edits I suggested previously. I > >> never said I wanted a generic audio tag. > > > > Your proposal was fine with me. Others' suggestions to add something > > like "-audio" bother me. > > Thank you for discreetly not mentioning my name. > > > Perhaps your comment might be accommodated by way of a "tag wisely" > > example. In section 4.1 of the current i-d, we could insert an > > example after the sentence "Subtags SHOULD only be used where they add > > useful distinguishing information; extraneous subtags interfere with > > the meaning, understanding, and processing of language tags." Such an > > example might be "For example, inclusion of a script subtag would not > > be helpful in characterizing purely audio data." > > That's not enough; what she is asking for is a MUST NOT, and I > understand that, because inclusion of a script subtag for purely audio > data would not be merely unhelpful, it would be absolutely > inappropriate. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_146963_30370158.1173116412208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I strongly disagree.

1. We, and I'm sure others, have the need to tag three kinds of information.
  1. Any English (written or non-written)
  2. Written English
  3. Non-Written English
Simply because you, Doug, don't see a need for this in your environment doesn't mean that others don't have a legitimate need.

\We can express that with the following:

#1 is handled with "en"
#2 is handled with "en-Latn" (or other scripts for other languages)
#3 is handled with "en-Zxxx" (the code for unwritten languages) or "en-Qabx"

2. Now, I bowed to Doug's desire not to use Zxxx in the text, although frankly there is no good reason for it. Some have said that Zxxx only applies to cases where the language is never written. But there is no implication of that in the text of 15924.

When we are using any codes to mark content, it is the specific instance that is at issue, whether it is in Latn or Arab, not some metaphysical determination of whether the language could be written in Latn or Arab. The application of a script tag to content is not an application to the language itself, it is an application to the particular instance of content being tagged. If I legitimately tag content "abc-Zxxx" for an instance of a language Abc which is not written, it would be bizarre that because someone invents an orthography for Abc in 10 years that my tag somehow then becomes illegitimate.

I don't see any reason to not apply Zxxx to language content that is not written. It satisfies a legitimate requirement, and does so within the structure of BCP 47.

Mark

On 3/4/07, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net> wrote:
Randy Presuhn <randy underscore presuhn at mindspring dot com> wrote:

>> Again, all I'm requesting is stronger language about NOT using script
>> tags with audio language, such as the edits I suggested previously. I
>> never said I wanted a generic audio tag.
>
> Your proposal was fine with me.  Others' suggestions to add something
> like "-audio" bother me.

Thank you for discreetly not mentioning my name.

> Perhaps your comment might be accommodated by way of a "tag wisely"
> example.  In section 4.1 of the current i-d, we could insert an
> example after the sentence "Subtags SHOULD only be used where they add
> useful distinguishing information; extraneous subtags interfere with
> the meaning, understanding, and processing of language tags." Such an
> example might be "For example, inclusion of a script subtag would not
> be helpful in characterizing purely audio data."

That's not enough; what she is asking for is a MUST NOT, and I
understand that, because inclusion of a script subtag for purely audio
data would not be merely unhelpful, it would be absolutely
inappropriate.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


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Mark ------=_Part_146963_30370158.1173116412208-- --===============2142010859== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2142010859==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 12:54:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHOR-00008a-Ij; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:54:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHOP-00008V-VG for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:54:37 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHOO-0001Gh-70 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:54:37 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.182] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c182.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.182]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l25Hs9Po038161 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LbkreZo4Mxugw092TeAYxgXOjr0C4rLSgiZoMJZ4wPGGeFzjrDULb4D2mymeW8mb Message-ID: <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:54:08 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com id l25Hs9Po038161 X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: e1b0e72ff1bbd457ceef31828f216a86 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have been opposing the registration of general purpose variants for=20 awhile now, not so much because the registrations themselves were=20 misguided, but because I recognized that they create problems like this=20 that we are ill-equipped to handle. While I supported watering down MUST=20 on Prefixes during the "3066bis" era, I thought it would be most prudent=20 not to rush out and make a bunch of these to wrestle with. > Because we already have the distinction between these in the last > version of the spec, and the requirements on them are different, it > would be irresponsible of us not to indicate to people that they have > to take certain steps to avoid invalid tags. This isn't quite correct. There is a MAY in Section 2.2.5 that suggests=20 variants can be registered without a Prefix. And Section 3.5 goes=20 further by saying: -- Variant registration requests SHOULD include at least one "Prefix" field=20 in the registration form. -- General variants are not defined and their handling was controversial.=20 Attempts to registry truly general subtags ("east", "west", etc.) as=20 trial balloons were shot down initially. This canonicalization problem does not exist for traditional,=20 Prefix-bearing variants. It only exists when one must mix variants not=20 tied to a particular language with ones that are. Thus: 1. We could act to ban *future* registrations of "general purpose"=20 variants (by requiring a Prefix). This would be a good move on our=20 parts, I think, since they introduce all manner of problems for language=20 tag users and BCP 47 implementers. 2. Our problems with ISO 15924 should be handled via another mechanism.=20 The likely candidates here would be: -- Ask ISO 15924 about adding a "Part II: Codes for script=20 variations". Their namespace is enormous and unlikely to ever fill up,=20 and they really should manage all sorts of these variations that really=20 *should* be scripts. -- Add some ABNF mutation of our own to the "script" production for=20 "registered scripts" (probably ALPHA DIGIT 2ALPHA or maybe 3ALPHA DIGIT)=20 and repent the registration woes at our leisure (I predict many such=20 woes: the history of ietf-languages acting quickly and some ISO body=20 catching up later is long and ugly). -- Tell people to write an extension for transliterations,=20 transcriptions, and other script-like mutations. > 3. As far as the ordering of variants goes, we really can't have it bot= h=20 > ways. Aside from constraints imposed by prefixing, either >=20 > A. Order is NOT significant for variants > or > B. Order IS significant for variants. >=20 Variant order may not be significant to the meaning of some tags=20 (considered as an atomic unit), as understood by humans. But matching=20 schemes of all stripes make order significant, even where it is=20 inappropriate. >=20 > We would get a far better match. By a slavish adherence to a notion of=20 > script that is neither required by 15924 nor consistently adhered to=20 > (Latf), rather than looking at the functional and operational aspects o= f=20 > codes, we've gotten into a muddle with these. >=20 > So what am I saying? It is that the variant ordering is already so=20 > screwed up that it is pointless to waste much time on it.=20 Yay! +1 to that sentiment... when applied to general-purpose variants.=20 There *is no problem with traditional variants*. > The best we=20 > can to is provide a canonical ordering for variants that is at least (=CE= =B1)=20 > consistent with prefixes, and (=CE=B2) unique. That's the basis for my = proposal. >=20 Yes, but I oppose including it. Let people choose tags wisely. Warn them=20 to order the subtags in the best order. And don't register any more=20 universal variants. Addison --=20 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 13:00:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHTp-0001Nc-RJ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:00:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHTp-0001NX-FQ for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:00:13 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHTn-0002m3-Ti for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:00:13 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.182] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c182.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.182]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l25Hxu17038666 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:59:56 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BBoxh0fhPlwkhIpA3LDHthuaLtifXAPxh3X1ixfmwlhjtjR5IO2UTzZf1sPrq0Se Message-ID: <45EC5A9B.6030609@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:59:55 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org >> Perhaps your comment might be accommodated by way of a "tag wisely" >> example. In section 4.1 of the current i-d, we could insert an >> example after the sentence "Subtags SHOULD only be used where they add >> useful distinguishing information; extraneous subtags interfere with >> the meaning, understanding, and processing of language tags." Such an >> example might be "For example, inclusion of a script subtag would not >> be helpful in characterizing purely audio data." > > That's not enough; what she is asking for is a MUST NOT, and I > understand that, because inclusion of a script subtag for purely audio > data would not be merely unhelpful, it would be absolutely inappropriate. > MUST NOT is not appropriate there. We don't prevent people from tagging content "stupidly" and it introduces an untestable burden on software and users. For example, a text-to-speech application might very well generate some audio content and tag it with the language tag associated with the original text. Voila: "Traditional Chinese" audio content. "zh-Hant-CN" is no more silly than "tlh-AQ" on audio content. In fact, it probably still conveys some useful facts about the content. I agree with providing "tag wisely" and strong warnings (SHOULD/SHOULD NOT), but not with going overboard. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 13:01:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHV6-0003d1-N1; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:01:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHV5-0003WE-7I for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:01:31 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.231]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHUq-0003Bs-Sk for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:01:31 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id z6so1715767nzd for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:01:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=b+j0o9+g+wW1tCXgJmR0YIUf241cy1aVt3PaEtYypZUHz9NU4xE+kLrY77fwY4wlCW6iWaEPMR4RuWylRd6iRuUmbV2BRc379ggYZutZLzwJ0IosHP1GwEy+tivLBZLALDMtR2A2dgcjbQ9X7u+O7t+vNuBteZYs6R5EHeKqeus= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=WU25wq0bFoxS0ZO+uAw2FLbP3yxrae+PjI+70j60SNi1w/BM/eyOUkDuDgvenr7QfUA2gGWcCxr/RWQzvkgh4A6PaGM26/QNXa3F+NeJQlpuANepIUf4rjNeBiIuZeUo1VpvvbgCexM0d42p5NEPGibcdr+wVMfnW2fn1pMZRFA= Received: by 10.114.81.1 with SMTP id e1mr1375419wab.1173117675096; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:01:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703051001k31dc4bbaqcf5ece3c525abe57@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:01:14 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposals for changes to latest draft In-Reply-To: <45E4D531.2030104@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20702270758y544a42bcl9d78f0806df8d05c@mail.gmail.com> <20070227195053.GB1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E49284.4060107@yahoo-inc.com> <20070227204913.GE1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E4A6CB.4080005@yahoo-inc.com> <20070227230724.GI1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E4D531.2030104@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 771ad482ff17d762 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21be852dc93f0971708678c18d38c096 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1024039808==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1024039808== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_147568_11777927.1173117674941" ------=_Part_147568_11777927.1173117674941 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There are two remaining areas that I want to weigh in on. 1. Sending an entire registry. I'm not wedded to this notion, but what I do think is very important is that we have a staging area, with a complete registry listing as it will be once accepted. Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we are stuck with any mistakes from then on. It is only prudent to have a complete draft copy of the registry with the changes incorporated, as it will be posted, for some period before it is posted. 2. LSR term. Our goal for this is roll to have someone who is: 1. Organized, responsive, and timely 2. Polite and considerate; giving due consideration to all reasoned points of view 3. Completely familiar with all technical aspects and requirements of BCP 47 4. Aware of the usage of BCP 47 tags in practice, in HTML, HTTP, XML, &c. 5. Able to draw upon and assess the contributions of language experts in order to come to consensus. We owe it to users of the registry to get the best candidate for the job, and having a call for candidates every two years provides the opportunity to do so. Mark On 2/27/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > John Cowan wrote: > > > >> I agree that this section will read better if we use Mark's definitions > >> based on tag conformance (allowing emails such as mine to pass muster). > >> But the section should then proceed to talk about applying the terms to > >> implementations. It makes no sense to talk about tag conformance when > we > >> mean implementations. > > > > Let's have both, then: definitions of well-formed and valid tags, > > followed by definitions of validating and non-validating processors. > > Agreed. I thought that's what I said :-). > > > >> [T]he reviewer has historically exercised broad (very broad) discretion > in > >> accepting and rejecting requests. My understanding of RFC 4646 is that > a > >> request that has met with broad consensus for inclusion and which > >> otherwise meets the requirements of the RFC won't unreasonably be > >> rejected. > > > > Very well, provided the reviewer is the judge of what is reasonable! > > This reminds me of the lawyer's definition of "law", namely "the > > law is what the judge says it is." This works for lawyers, but not > > for judges, who are sworn to do justice according to law. > > Yes, and hence the appeals process. > > > > >> The reviewer is, as you say, a judge---s/he adjudicates > >> whether sufficient consensus has been achieved, and, furthermore, that > >> there are no fatal technical objections to the registration. This is > why > >> the person is considered by IANA to be an "expert reviewer". > > > > Au contraire. I believe that the reviewer has *always* acted on his > > own judgement of whether the registration is good or bad, and *not* > > on the basis of what he thinks the list consensus is. > > To be complete: the reviewer is sovereign in making the decision. > However, the decision must be based on significant objections and these > must be stated publicly on the list. List consensus or the lack thereof > should certainly influence such a decision. > > My bigger concerns with the LSR historically have been: > > - there is a lack of timeliness in tracking the two-week rule > - that acceptance or rejection is not always clearly made on the list > (is, for example, 'valencia' going to show up some time soon or not?) > - that objections are not always clear or clearly summarized > - that criteria for registration/rejection are not always clear > > I believe that a registration in the face of overwhelming consensus > against a subtag would be a truly bad thing. Similarly the reviewer > should consider a countervailing consensus in support of a subtag > closely before rejecting an item. The rejection cannot seem arbitrary: > it must be based on something (RFCs 1766 and 3066 called this > "significant objections", purposefully not defining "significant"). > > > > I also believe > > that this is The Right Thing, as shown by actual practice. > > Yes, when done well. It is the Wrong Thing when applied haphazardly > and/or inconsistently. > > Mark's proposed changes to the term and nominating process would help > ensure that this performance is occasionally monitored. > > > > >> To this, I think it important to indicate that the LSR has the duty of > >> making the adjudication on a request. > > > > Sure. But I do not want to constrain him to do what the list thinks. > > He is not the list's servant, as an editor is; he is the sovereign > expert > > (though with a provision to overrule him). > > Good it is that I have not proposed we constrain him thus. I'm happy > with the reviewer being the "sovereign expert", but the reviewer should > also be aware that both "justice" and "the law" give a requester certain > expectations of due process. I would not be concerned if there were a > clear rejection of a subtag, even if it were entirely wrongheaded for > the rejection to take place: the appeals process exists for precisely > that purpose. > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > -- Mark ------=_Part_147568_11777927.1173117674941 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There are two remaining areas that I want to weigh in on.

1. Sending an entire registry.
I'm not wedded to this notion, but what I do think is very important is that we have a staging area, with a complete registry listing as it will be once accepted. Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we are stuck with any mistakes from then on. It is only prudent to have a complete draft copy of the registry with the changes incorporated, as it will be posted, for some period before it is posted.

2. LSR term. Our goal for this is roll to have someone who is:
  1. Organized, responsive, and timely
  2. Polite and considerate; giving due consideration to all reasoned points of view
  3. Completely familiar with all technical aspects and requirements of BCP 47
  4. Aware of the usage of BCP 47 tags in practice, in HTML, HTTP, XML, &c.
  5. Able to draw upon and assess the contributions of language experts in order to come to consensus.
We owe it to users of the registry to get the best candidate for the job, and having a call for candidates every two years provides the opportunity to do so.

Mark

On 2/27/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
John Cowan wrote:
>
>> I agree that this section will read better if we use Mark's definitions
>> based on tag conformance (allowing emails such as mine to pass muster).
>> But the section should then proceed to talk about applying the terms to
>> implementations. It makes no sense to talk about tag conformance when we
>> mean implementations.
>
> Let's have both, then: definitions of well-formed and valid tags,
> followed by definitions of validating and non-validating processors.

Agreed. I thought that's what I said :-).
>
>> [T]he reviewer has historically exercised broad (very broad) discretion in
>> accepting and rejecting requests. My understanding of RFC 4646 is that a
>> request that has met with broad consensus for inclusion and which
>> otherwise meets the requirements of the RFC won't unreasonably be
>> rejected.
>
> Very well, provided the reviewer is the judge of what is reasonable!
> This reminds me of the lawyer's definition of "law", namely "the
> law is what the judge says it is."  This works for lawyers, but not
> for judges, who are sworn to do justice according to law.

Yes, and hence the appeals process.

>
>> The reviewer is, as you say, a judge---s/he adjudicates
>> whether sufficient consensus has been achieved, and, furthermore, that
>> there are no fatal technical objections to the registration. This is why
>> the person is considered by IANA to be an "expert reviewer".
>
> Au contraire.  I believe that the reviewer has *always* acted on his
> own judgement of whether the registration is good or bad, and *not*
> on the basis of what he thinks the list consensus is.

To be complete: the reviewer is sovereign in making the decision.
However, the decision must be based on significant objections and these
must be stated publicly on the list. List consensus or the lack thereof
should certainly influence such a decision.

My bigger concerns with the LSR historically have been:

- there is a lack of timeliness in tracking the two-week rule
- that acceptance or rejection is not always clearly made on the list
(is, for example, 'valencia' going to show up some time soon or not?)
- that objections are not always clear or clearly summarized
- that criteria for registration/rejection are not always clear

I believe that a registration in the face of overwhelming consensus
against a subtag would be a truly bad thing. Similarly the reviewer
should consider a countervailing consensus in support of a subtag
closely before rejecting an item. The rejection cannot seem arbitrary:
it must be based on something (RFCs 1766 and 3066 called this
"significant objections", purposefully not defining "significant").


> I also believe
> that this is The Right Thing, as shown by actual practice.

Yes, when done well. It is the Wrong Thing when applied haphazardly
and/or inconsistently.

Mark's proposed changes to the term and nominating process would help
ensure that this performance is occasionally monitored.

>
>> To this, I think it important to indicate that the LSR has the duty of
>> making the adjudication on a request.
>
> Sure.  But I do not want to constrain him to do what the list thinks.
> He is not the list's servant, as an editor is; he is the sovereign expert
> (though with a provision to overrule him).

Good it is that I have not proposed we constrain him thus. I'm happy
with the reviewer being the "sovereign expert", but the reviewer should
also be aware that both "justice" and "the law" give a requester certain
expectations of due process. I would not be concerned if there were a
clear rejection of a subtag, even if it were entirely wrongheaded for
the rejection to take place: the appeals process exists for precisely
that purpose.

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.



--
Mark ------=_Part_147568_11777927.1173117674941-- --===============1024039808== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1024039808==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 13:12:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHg6-0001Jj-2V; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:12:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHg4-0001Je-SB for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:12:52 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.224]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHg2-00076G-BR for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:12:52 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id z6so1719402nzd for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:12:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Nil3J2Ol6zEOVL3C1vqh2W6q4VTcOSxQnucuOwU7fr7NBDHOD8vnO02Ro/iAWdb6KF7OlVH7x8kOLuqbmC7gHPPTNXPkCHV9otptdlUQNdJylXiufApmaZ10GUy/oi9HwACgRtvEzwmzR6Uvgdx7m+EUMRPZFDkf46YHHqWicyM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=cwICXY6t1C6/k2k5CX38KHLLwScmNVv2PYnEIrn4MYGwyAIriQC9zLGoEQuV+YmujoV+a9kB/C/yOxjOPGviyjWO6Si3Qk9Fuu0RjB+Fx+q9jrWf1F5avjLmetOpG+9b9Fkdxx64G+dvaB3Nz4jWQ3x6jhBaOo98HaZtVc3B0fo= Received: by 10.115.55.1 with SMTP id h1mr1384278wak.1173118369556; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:12:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703051012w74bcf467h39abcdbd0f57d370@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:12:49 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants In-Reply-To: <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: e6aa3ff2552a790e X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31b28e25e9d13a22020d8b7aedc9832c Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1279486494==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1279486494== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_147924_7668402.1173118369157" 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Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:25:21 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHs7-0005ie-V7 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:25:19 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHs1-0002RP-Tc for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:25:19 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHrS-000799-MS for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:24:38 +0100 Received: from d253241.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.241]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:24:38 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253241.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:24:38 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:24:02 +0100 Organization: Lines: 32 Message-ID: <45EC6041.61C3@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253241.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Canonicalizing variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > General variants are not defined and their handling was controversial. > Attempts to registry truly general subtags ("east", "west", etc.) as > trial balloons were shot down initially. > This canonicalization problem does not exist for traditional, > Prefix-bearing variants. It only exists when one must mix variants > not tied to a particular language with ones that are. Thus: > 1. We could act to ban *future* registrations of "general purpose" > variants (by requiring a Prefix). This would be a good move on our > parts, I think, since they introduce all manner of problems for > language tag users and BCP 47 implementers. ACK so far. Keeping the "fonipa" cruft until it's deprecated by a proper extension (or one of your other proposals). If there's a MUST instead of a SHOULD in 4646bis folks wanting something new in the direction of "fonipa" are anyway forced to figure out a general solution also deprecating "fonipa" (and the other "fon"). >> So what am I saying? It is that the variant ordering is already >> so screwed up that it is pointless to waste much time on it. > Yay! +1 to that sentiment... when applied to general-purpose > variants. There *is no problem with traditional variants*. +2 If a new idea isn't ready for an extension folks can still play with it using a bunch of x-whatever. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 13:25:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHsZ-0005xm-Un; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:25:47 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHsZ-0005xg-Le for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:25:47 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHsY-0002oX-CY for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:25:47 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOHsY-000402-AL; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:25:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:25:46 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposals for changes to latest draft Message-ID: <20070305182545.GC29802@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20702270758y544a42bcl9d78f0806df8d05c@mail.gmail.com> <20070227195053.GB1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E49284.4060107@yahoo-inc.com> <20070227204913.GE1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E4A6CB.4080005@yahoo-inc.com> <20070227230724.GI1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E4D531.2030104@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703051001k31dc4bbaqcf5ece3c525abe57@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703051001k31dc4bbaqcf5ece3c525abe57@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we are > stuck with any mistakes from then on. Actually not. What the LSR sends to IANA is authoritative; if IANA botches the update, IANA can fix it. I certainly wouldn't oppose IANA creating such a staging area officially or anyone else doing it unofficially, but none of IANA's other registries seem to require this. -- We call nothing profound cowan@ccil.org that is not wittily expressed. John Cowan --Northrop Frye (improved) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 13:33:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHzu-00016D-Gq; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:33:22 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHzt-00011c-BF for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:33:21 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHzs-0005T1-0G for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:33:21 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHzf-0000kp-2K for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:33:07 +0100 Received: from d253241.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.241]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:33:07 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253241.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:33:07 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:32:07 +0100 Organization: Lines: 25 Message-ID: <45EC6227.20D3@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <30b660a20702270758y544a42bcl9d78f0806df8d05c@mail.gmail.com> <20070227195053.GB1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E49284.4060107@yahoo-inc.com> <20070227204913.GE1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E4A6CB.4080005@yahoo-inc.com> <20070227230724.GI1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E4D531.2030104@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703051001k31dc4bbaqcf5ece3c525abe57@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253241.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposals for changes to latest draft X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > 2. LSR term. Our goal for this is roll to have someone who is: > 1. Organized, responsive, and timely > 2. Polite and considerate; giving due consideration to all reasoned > points of view > 3. Completely familiar with all technical aspects and requirements > of BCP 47 > 4. Aware of the usage of BCP 47 tags in practice, in HTML, HTTP, > XML, &c. > 5. Able to draw upon and assess the contributions of language > experts in order to come to consensus. > We owe it to users of the registry to get the best candidate for the > job, and having a call for candidates every two years provides the > opportunity to do so. Sounds good, but I guess the IESG won't like to go through this procedure every two years, you'd have to allow them to delegate this task somehow (NomCom, directorate, no idea, we'd have to ask the ADs what could work, "two years" is AFAIK a new concept.) Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 13:43:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOI9Q-0005Te-TF; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:43:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOI9P-0005Re-ND for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:43:11 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOI9N-0007gV-JF for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:43:11 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.182] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c182.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.182]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l25IgrFq042510 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:42:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ON8/F4VYMWgcZyTEOcUOJhf8zzMeNwqin2ng+Kgnyy9Beq+hbs6VS88eDBZDme5E Message-ID: <45EC64AB.0@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:42:51 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Canonicalizing variants References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> <45EC6041.61C3@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <45EC6041.61C3@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > >> General variants are not defined and their handling was controversial. >> Attempts to registry truly general subtags ("east", "west", etc.) as >> trial balloons were shot down initially. > >> This canonicalization problem does not exist for traditional, >> Prefix-bearing variants. It only exists when one must mix variants >> not tied to a particular language with ones that are. Thus: > >> 1. We could act to ban *future* registrations of "general purpose" >> variants (by requiring a Prefix). This would be a good move on our >> parts, I think, since they introduce all manner of problems for >> language tag users and BCP 47 implementers. > > ACK so far. Keeping the "fonipa" cruft until it's deprecated by a > proper extension (or one of your other proposals). If there's a > MUST instead of a SHOULD in 4646bis folks wanting something new > in the direction of "fonipa" are anyway forced to figure out a > general solution also deprecating "fonipa" (and the other "fon"). Yes, I forgot to call this out explicitly (although note the highlighting of "future"). This would work simply enough: put a MUST in Section 3.5 (requiring a Prefix in future registrations) and a note in Section 2.2.5 near the MAY (that a couple of items have no Prefix, but any new registrations will have a Prefix). Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 13:52:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOIIi-0003F7-Tf; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:52:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOIIi-0003F2-Ay for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:52:48 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOIIg-0001hj-2l for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:52:48 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOIId-0005fw-9i; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:52:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:52:43 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants Message-ID: <20070305185243.GA17952@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703051012w74bcf467h39abcdbd0f57d370@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703051012w74bcf467h39abcdbd0f57d370@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > 1. I think adding ALPHA 2alphanum DIGIT (or some variant) to fix the > situation would be a great step forward. Too late now; that entails changing the syntax. > > -- Ask ISO 15924 about adding a "Part II: Codes for script > >variations". Their namespace is enormous and unlikely to ever fill up, Actually it is not, because every 4-alpha code has a 3-digit equivalent. That's why there are so few private-use tags. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Nobody expects the RESTifarian Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise ... surprise and tedium ... tedium and surprise .... Our two weapons are tedium and surprise ... and ruthless disregard for unpleasant facts.... Our three weapons are tedium, surprise, and ruthless disregard ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Roy Fielding.... _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 14:27:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOIqP-0007Tk-0n; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:27:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOIqO-0007Tc-96 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:27:36 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOIqM-0002ks-TJ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:27:36 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HOIqD-0002lc-Bh for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:27:25 +0100 Received: from d253241.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.241]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:27:25 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253241.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:27:25 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:26:42 +0100 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: <45EC6EF2.3C8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703051012w74bcf467h39abcdbd0f57d370@mail.gmail.com> <20070305185243.GA17952@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253241.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Canonicalizing variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: >>> Ask ISO 15924 about adding a "Part II: Codes for script variations". >>> Their namespace is enormous and unlikely to ever fill up, > Actually it is not, because every 4-alpha code has a 3-digit > equivalent. That's why there are so few private-use tags. They could partition it using a subset of alpha4 codes without associated numbers. And I'm tempted to ask who uses this script enumeration anyway. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 17:03:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOLHG-0005hZ-SU; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:03:30 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOLHG-0005hQ-4w for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:03:30 -0500 Received: from ithilien.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.59]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOLHE-0002Ny-QI for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:03:30 -0500 Received: from hamtaro.qualcomm.com (hamtaro.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.157]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id l25M3JLa003121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:03:20 -0800 Received: from [129.46.226.191] (carbuncle.qualcomm.com [129.46.226.191]) by hamtaro.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/1.0) with ESMTP id l25M3IkE006079; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:03:19 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703051001k31dc4bbaqcf5ece3c525abe57@mail.gmail.com> References: <30b660a20702270758y544a42bcl9d78f0806df8d05c@mail.gmail.com> <20070227195053.GB1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E49284.4060107@yahoo-inc.com> <20070227204913.GE1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E4A6CB.4080005@yahoo-inc.com> <20070227230724.GI1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E4D531.2030104@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703051001k31dc4bbaqcf5ece3c525abe57@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:03:23 -0800 To: "Mark Davis" , "Addison Phillips" From: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposals for changes to latest draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > >2. LSR term. Our goal for this is roll to have someone who is: > >1. Organized, responsive, and timely >2. Polite and considerate; giving due consideration to all reasoned points of view >3. Completely familiar with all technical aspects and requirements of BCP 47 >4. Aware of the usage of BCP 47 tags in practice, in HTML, HTTP, XML, &c. >5. Able to draw upon and assess the contributions of language experts in order to come to consensus. > >We owe it to users of the registry to get the best candidate for the job, and having a call for candidates every two years provides the opportunity to do so. > >Mark IANA expert terms have not been bounded by dates, at least in my experience, so setting up a specific term might be breaking new ground. I personally think you need to be careful what you wish for here. If a Language subtag reviewer were appointed who was seriously deficient, the inertia around fixed-term appointments might, in fact, act to prolong the term of that LSR, rather than ensure it got reviewed. It can be much easier to ask someone to step aside if it is not obvious that they are leaving earlier than expected; it can also be easier to persuade folks to make that request if they can't say to themselves "Oh well, only X months left in the term, how much harm can keeping the status quo do?" Just my personal opinion, Ted _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 20:28:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOOTm-0001jx-C0; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:28:38 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOOTk-0001gh-RP for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:28:36 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOOTj-0005Dq-Gf for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:28:36 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.182] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c182.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.182]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l261S92m001841 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:28:17 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uqGymNbZwyc3JIhnx7G/Pf8huX3NCxViu/uhm4vus9ia9ZREMTbo7vok5XwWcHvF Message-ID: <45ECC3A9.60802@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:28:09 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703051012w74bcf467h39abcdbd0f57d370@mail.gmail.com> <20070305185243.GA17952@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070305185243.GA17952@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org >>> -- Ask ISO 15924 about adding a "Part II: Codes for script >>> variations". Their namespace is enormous and unlikely to ever fill up, > > Actually it is not, because every 4-alpha code has a 3-digit equivalent. > That's why there are so few private-use tags. The alpha4 namespace can't ever fill up then. Thus the "excess" codes can be used for other things (some on the 15924RA might define "things" as "garbage") that don't have three-digit equivalents. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 20:43:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOOhz-0004rU-Th; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:43:19 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOL8L-0000sx-0i for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:54:17 -0500 Received: from woodstock.binhost.com ([66.150.120.2]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOL8J-0000V6-Po for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:54:17 -0500 Received: (qmail 23745 invoked by uid 0); 5 Mar 2007 21:54:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO THINKPADR52.vigilsec.com) (72.66.14.186) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 5 Mar 2007 21:54:08 -0000 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:54:12 -0500 To: John Cowan ,Doug Ewell From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <20070210181535.GN30294@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20070210110002.CA2702596E8@eikenes.alvestrand.no> <005301c74d3c$0bb00510$6801a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20070210181535.GN30294@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:43:18 -0500 Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, LTRU Working Group , ietf@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Last Call: draft-mcwalter-langtag-mib (Language Tag MIB) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Message-Id: > > Since tags of 1 character are never well-formed, I suggest that the > > definition: > > > > SYNTAX OCTET STRING (SIZE (0..60)) > > > > be amended to exclude the 1-character case. I assume that a zero-length > > tag, while also not defined in RFC 4646, was included in the I-D to > > allow the special case of "no tag." > >AFAIK, ASN.1 does not allow sizes like (0, 2..60). I wouldn't even >bother with this change. I tried this: FooString ::= OCTET STRING (SIZE (0 | 2..60)) And, it worked with two different ASN.1 compilers. Russ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 20:43:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOOhz-0004rQ-R6; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:43:19 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HODWl-00053y-1s for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:46:59 -0500 Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.184]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HODWc-0003zC-MG for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:46:59 -0500 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id g7so1610157muf for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 05:46:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KX8u579/664ZzC/vALvEzNZyoOYMChYdlMvDQYSy/PodwHJWr8WR1jHxtpZS8gp/vB2dLZVuAXhf7GGNa8nqoxA9oq6PwGxqnm7amL23XJLDoHa2MwtBuTcuUSySw14ABlDTuQ2l6fQiUQ7nCnaS5fkuo1uOT89mVhVPKTRCY7U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Kt2PQV4RKabaBumyz4o5aX+5A+JMvlnKatOb9pmV6LpJV2Q+tay81SrZRYBnacKd/I7P3DOnunlZbeefFglFrBS4WjJ2IrQWAGDT1Eo+TRSM/OG560ih5X5VUUlJhw4KRmNggU/vWYppqMEsFk0TVE0OaF0I4rnDfnQ1mJTg4ew= Received: by 10.82.188.15 with SMTP id l15mr5057847buf.1173102407670; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 05:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.0.2? ( [62.195.155.247]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id p72sm22985085nfc.2007.03.05.05.46.46; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 05:46:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:46:09 +0100 From: Gerard Meijssen User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer References: <001901c75a16$ac85f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45E3DD61.7010406@gmail.com> <002501c75a43$634e6820$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702262357o3d2ef494s9b5e2ad7cd91b9a@mail.gmail.com> <003001c75a46$d0d85ec0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702270036y54918b6cw6d65f406b4f2d60@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:43:18 -0500 Cc: Gerard Meijssen , LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer schreef: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100, > Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote > a message of 18 lines which said: > > >> Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RFC >> 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of >> the complications involved. >> > > Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's > comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to > tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way: > > http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html > http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections > http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20070117145745854 > > If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up. Hoi, It is also a good moment to reflect.. Microsoft is not interested in Standards. What is the point of considering Microsoft's position at all as a consequence ? Thanks, Gerard _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 21:31:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOPSE-00089E-9Q; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:31:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOPSC-000899-Ka for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:31:04 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOPSB-0003WM-DP for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:31:04 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOPS5-0003kX-AM; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:30:57 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:30:57 -0500 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants Message-ID: <20070306023057.GH17952@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703051012w74bcf467h39abcdbd0f57d370@mail.gmail.com> <20070305185243.GA17952@mercury.ccil.org> <45ECC3A9.60802@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45ECC3A9.60802@yahoo-inc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > The alpha4 namespace can't ever fill up then. Thus the "excess" codes > can be used for other things (some on the 15924RA might define "things" > as "garbage") that don't have three-digit equivalents. Where's it to stop? Who gets to allocate (say) the Z??? space? If it's the RA, they won't want to contaminate the script standard with nonscripts. If not, it's just another private-use area from the standard's viewpoint, and we can use it, but so can anyone else. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led. And through the air. I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. --Bilbo _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 21:50:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOPlI-0001hb-8R; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:50:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOPlG-0001fB-SD for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:50:46 -0500 Received: from outbound-blu.frontbridge.com ([65.55.251.16] helo=outbound8-blu-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOPlG-0005VB-73 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:50:46 -0500 Received: from outbound8-blu.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound8-blu-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 059DA9DAEB3; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 02:50:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail139-blu-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.1.252.3]) by outbound8-blu.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE7D60004F; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 02:50:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail139-blu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail139-blu-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A344025846C; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 02:50:45 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail139-blu (MessageSwitch) id 1173149445218310_13938; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 02:50:45 +0000 (UCT) Received: from USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.251.196]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail139-blu.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024BED5006B; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 02:50:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5) with ESMTP id 2007030518504250-304556 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:50:42 -0800 In-Reply-To: <45EC5A9B.6030609@yahoo-inc.com> To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 CCH1 March 07, 2006 From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:49:01 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 03/05/2007 18:49:01, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 18:49:01, Itemize by SMTP Server on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 06:50:42 PM, Serialize by Router on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 06:50:44 PM, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 06:50:44 PM X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 926f893f9bbbfa169f045f85f0cdb955 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1574250658==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1574250658== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 000F997C88257296_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 000F997C88257296_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I agree with Doug's previous e-mail on the subject and disagree with Addison's interpretation. Script tags are NOT appropriate for audio content. If assistive technology is used (such as text-to-speech), two forms of the language are used -- one form is converted to the other and they are not the same. If someone requested tagging for both the "input" and "output" forms of the language, I would use one code for the input language and one code for the output language. Consider if the conversion is from Traditional Chinese to Simplified Chinese. What is the proper language tag then? This is a real use case. There are also applications that convert one text language to another -- what is the language then? By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm sure we don't want to amend the text to allow double script tags, do we? It doesn't make sense.This text is useful to anyone tagging audio content. >From my experience, this provision is not always obvious. As such, I don't think "tag wisely" is strong enough language. Doug's e-mail accurately reflects my opinion on this issue. Please reconsider my request for this text addition. Regards, Karen Broome Metadata Systems Designer Sony Pictures Entertainment 310.244.4384 Addison Phillips 03/05/2007 09:59 AM To Doug Ewell cc LTRU Working Group Subject Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) >> Perhaps your comment might be accommodated by way of a "tag wisely" >> example. In section 4.1 of the current i-d, we could insert an >> example after the sentence "Subtags SHOULD only be used where they add >> useful distinguishing information; extraneous subtags interfere with >> the meaning, understanding, and processing of language tags." Such an >> example might be "For example, inclusion of a script subtag would not >> be helpful in characterizing purely audio data." > > That's not enough; what she is asking for is a MUST NOT, and I > understand that, because inclusion of a script subtag for purely audio > data would not be merely unhelpful, it would be absolutely inappropriate. > MUST NOT is not appropriate there. We don't prevent people from tagging content "stupidly" and it introduces an untestable burden on software and users. For example, a text-to-speech application might very well generate some audio content and tag it with the language tag associated with the original text. Voila: "Traditional Chinese" audio content. "zh-Hant-CN" is no more silly than "tlh-AQ" on audio content. In fact, it probably still conveys some useful facts about the content. I agree with providing "tag wisely" and strong warnings (SHOULD/SHOULD NOT), but not with going overboard. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_alternative 000F997C88257296_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I agree with Doug's previous e-mail on the subject and disagree with Addison's interpretation. Script tags are NOT appropriate for audio content. If assistive technology is used (such as text-to-speech), two forms of the language are used -- one form is converted to the other and they are not the same. If someone requested tagging for both the "input" and "output" forms of the language, I would use one code for the input language and one code for the output language. Consider if the conversion is from Traditional Chinese to Simplified Chinese. What is the proper language tag then? This is a real use case. There are also applications that convert one text language to another -- what is the language then?

By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm sure we don't want  to amend the text to allow double script tags, do we? It doesn't make sense.This text is useful to anyone tagging audio content. From my experience, this provision is not always obvious. As such, I don't think "tag wisely" is strong enough language.

Doug's e-mail accurately reflects my opinion on this issue. Please reconsider my request for this text addition.

Regards,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384


Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>

03/05/2007 09:59 AM

To
Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net>
cc
LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to        latest draft)





>> Perhaps your comment might be accommodated by way of a "tag wisely"
>> example.  In section 4.1 of the current i-d, we could insert an
>> example after the sentence "Subtags SHOULD only be used where they add
>> useful distinguishing information; extraneous subtags interfere with
>> the meaning, understanding, and processing of language tags." Such an
>> example might be "For example, inclusion of a script subtag would not
>> be helpful in characterizing purely audio data."
>
> That's not enough; what she is asking for is a MUST NOT, and I
> understand that, because inclusion of a script subtag for purely audio
> data would not be merely unhelpful, it would be absolutely inappropriate.
>

MUST NOT is not appropriate there. We don't prevent people from tagging
content "stupidly" and it introduces an untestable burden on software
and users. For example, a text-to-speech application might very well
generate some audio content and tag it with the language tag associated
with the original text. Voila: "Traditional Chinese" audio content.

"zh-Hant-CN" is no more silly than "tlh-AQ" on audio content. In fact,
it probably still conveys some useful facts about the content. I agree
with providing "tag wisely" and strong warnings (SHOULD/SHOULD NOT), but
not with going overboard.

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

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--=_alternative 000F997C88257296_=-- --===============1574250658== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1574250658==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 23:02:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOQsY-00051W-3V; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:02:22 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOQsX-00051N-6H for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:02:21 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOQsV-00061t-VW for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:02:21 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOQsR-0001Ru-SG; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:02:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:02:15 -0500 To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Message-ID: <20070306040215.GI17952@mercury.ccil.org> References: <45EC5A9B.6030609@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm > sure we don't want to amend the text to allow double script tags, do we? No. Braille is Brai, and the type of Braille would have to be represented in a variant tag if it could not be recovered from the language and country subtags: e.g. ustype1 and ustype2. -- What asininity could I have uttered John Cowan that they applaud me thus? http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Phocion, Greek orator _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 23:19:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOR9T-0007Nc-SS; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:19:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOR9S-0007H7-Bv for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:19:50 -0500 Received: from outbound-blu.frontbridge.com ([65.55.251.16] helo=outbound7-blu-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOR9Q-0000IJ-N2 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:19:50 -0500 Received: from outbound7-blu.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound7-blu-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E75213141; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 04:19:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail119-blu-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.1.252.3]) by outbound7-blu.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229B11630056; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 04:19:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail119-blu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail119-blu-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B9D87814B; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 04:19:45 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail119-blu (MessageSwitch) id 1173154784382531_32502; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 04:19:44 +0000 (UCT) Received: from USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.251.196]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail119-blu.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FE0920062; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 04:19:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5) with ESMTP id 2007030520192822-313208 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:19:28 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20070306040215.GI17952@mercury.ccil.org> To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 CCH1 March 07, 2006 From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:17:47 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 03/05/2007 20:17:47, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 20:17:47, Itemize by SMTP Server on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 08:19:28 PM, Serialize by Router on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 08:19:43 PM, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 08:19:43 PM X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3971661e40967acfc35f708dd5f33760 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0545250791==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0545250791== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0017BA2A88257296_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0017BA2A88257296_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" It seems you are agreeing with me, John. Addison's argument was that when Traditional Chinese is run through a text-to-speech application, it becomes "audio Traditional Chinese." I strongly disagree. If Addison's argument is extended from text-to-speech applications to text-to-Braille applications, then following his logic, the Braille output would be Traditional Chinese too, leading to the necessity for two script tags and that does not make sense to me. When a language is run through any kind of converter, it is transformed and so there is a "before" and an "after" language. Audio languages are not written in scripts and I don't think "audio" Traditional Chinese makes any sense. With all due respect, Karen Broome Metadata Systems Designer Sony Pictures Entertainment 310.244.4384 John Cowan 03/05/2007 08:02 PM To Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com cc Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm > sure we don't want to amend the text to allow double script tags, do we? No. Braille is Brai, and the type of Braille would have to be represented in a variant tag if it could not be recovered from the language and country subtags: e.g. ustype1 and ustype2. -- What asininity could I have uttered John Cowan that they applaud me thus? http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Phocion, Greek orator _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_alternative 0017BA2A88257296_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
It seems you are agreeing with me, John.

Addison's argument  was that when Traditional Chinese is run through a text-to-speech application, it becomes "audio Traditional Chinese." I strongly disagree.

If Addison's argument is extended from text-to-speech applications to text-to-Braille applications, then following his logic, the Braille output would be Traditional Chinese too, leading to the necessity for two script tags and that does not make sense to me. When a language is run through any kind of converter, it is transformed and so there is a "before" and an "after" language.

Audio languages are not written in scripts and I don't think "audio" Traditional Chinese makes any sense.

With all due respect,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384


John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>

03/05/2007 08:02 PM

To
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
cc
Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes        to        latest draft)





Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit:

> By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm
> sure we don't want  to amend the text to allow double script tags, do we?

No.  Braille is Brai, and the type of Braille would have to be represented
in a variant tag if it could not be recovered from the language and
country subtags:  e.g. ustype1 and ustype2.

--
What asininity could I have uttered     John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
that they applaud me thus?              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
       --Phocion, Greek orator

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--=_alternative 0017BA2A88257296_=-- --===============0545250791== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0545250791==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 23:25:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOREU-00043y-LR; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:25:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HORET-00043t-8D for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:25:01 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HORES-000178-18 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:25:01 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOREO-0002gp-6O; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:24:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:24:56 -0500 To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Message-ID: <20070306042456.GJ17952@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20070306040215.GI17952@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > Audio languages are not written in scripts and I don't think "audio" > Traditional Chinese makes any sense. I agree. I also think that realistically you will have two different metadata elements, one for audio and one for text content, so that the ambiguity of "en" (spoken or written) will be harmless. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders. --Hal Abelson _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 23:27:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HORGa-0006cd-7a; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:27:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HORGZ-0006cY-Md for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:27:11 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HORGY-0001fn-FU for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:27:11 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HORGX-0002rE-W9; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:27:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:27:09 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Message-ID: <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > 1. We, and I'm sure others, have the need to tag three kinds of > information. > > 1. Any English (written or non-written) > 2. Written English > 3. Non-Written English Can you show me a use case where these are contrastive? Movies have audio and (sometimes) text, but this will be most naturally expressed in two distinct metadata properties. Most other formats have only one piece of language metadata, though its values may vary at different points within the document/object. -- Not to perambulate John Cowan the corridors http://www.ccil.org/~cowan during the hours of repose in the boots of ascension. --Sign in Austrian ski-resort hotel _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 23:45:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HORY4-0007zn-Gr; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:45:16 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HORY2-0007yh-Dv for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:45:14 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HORY1-0003ZT-2v for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:45:14 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.182] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c182.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.182]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l264j1CD085626 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:45:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NtWzWNY+KbUZhcgqWcXnURZzJ607qWqMNoWq/P2Q6O8ojFEz7GTqPlQ3cW//RleI Message-ID: <45ECF1CD.5070500@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:45:01 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I'm not saying I think there is such as thing as "audio Traditional Chinese". What I'm saying is: trying to prevent software from making obvious (if wrong) choices is not realistic. "Audio Traditional Chinese" is silly... but entirely possible, no? TTS engines aren't always in the position of knowing how to modify a language tag. They are not people, after all. And what I'm pointing out is not the ideal design, but rather a "likely enough" scenario. In any case, my point is that using "MUST NOT" with script subtags for audio content doesn't necessarily act as a remedy for the problme, any more than we can offer for many other dubious choices one could make with language tags. I am cautious about introducing normative language, especially where it pertains to tag choices. In particular, tag choice is (will we, nill we) something that normative language cannot adequately control. We should use strong language to oppose silly tags. But we should also permit implementations the latitude to deal with silliness. Normative language applied overweeningly will simply be ignored. That is worse than the alternative. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 01:21:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOT36-0004dS-WE; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:21:25 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOT36-0004cR-MS for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:21:24 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOT35-0005BD-Bc for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:21:24 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070306062120.GSA2196.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:21:20 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c75fb7$a8a79f80$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:21:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > 1. I don't know why you thought that I wrote "tags SHOULD always be > *created or generated* ", unless you are more color-blind than I am > ;-). All of my changes were marked in yellow. All of the other text > was from the previous draft, and is not part of my proposed changes. I quoted the existing text (with *my emphasis*): "... language tags SHOULD always be *created or generated* in a canonical form. A language tag is in canonical form when:" to lend context to Mark's proposed change: "6. Any sequence of variant tags MUST be reordered such that for each variant subtags A and B, A comes before B if 1. A has no prefix and B has a prefix 2. or A and B are not ordered by #1, and A is part of a prefix (given the previous non-variant subtags) for B 3. or A and B are not ordered by #1 or #2, and A is alphabetically before B" Sorry if anyone was confused by this. I'm basically just digging myself deeper and deeper here, so I will back off and let whatever happens happen, on whatever time schedule it happens. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 01:39:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK6-0004Vu-8v; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK5-0004VY-DC for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:57 -0500 Received: from outbound-sin.frontbridge.com ([207.46.51.80] helo=outbound4-sin-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK1-0008L5-8B for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:57 -0500 Received: from outbound4-sin.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound4-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D8D902447; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail9-sin-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.252.3]) by outbound4-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D7E28005E; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail9-sin (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail9-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4A3EA03AF; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail9-sin (MessageSwitch) id 1173163131629711_22323; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UCT) Received: from USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.251.196]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail9-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB9337807C; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5) with ESMTP id 2007030522384709-317056 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:38:47 -0800 In-Reply-To: <45ECF1CD.5070500@yahoo-inc.com> To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 CCH1 March 07, 2006 From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:37:05 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 03/05/2007 22:37:06, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 22:37:06, Itemize by SMTP Server on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 10:38:47 PM, Serialize by Router on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 10:38:51 PM, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 10:38:51 PM X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0306167789==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0306167789== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0022513D88257296_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0022513D88257296_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" So is it your belief that the draft is satisfactory as-is? Frankly, I don't think "tag wisely" says anything at all. "Wise" is not defined and is subject to interpretation. I'd settle for a SHOULD NOT, but I am not satisfied with the draft as-is and there is a lot of confusion about this in my industry where audio and and text languages must be distinguished. So yes, you will find two properties -- one for audio language and one for text language, but more often than not, the list used for user clasFrom ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 01:39:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK6-0004Vu-8v; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK5-0004VY-DC for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:57 -0500 Received: from outbound-sin.frontbridge.com ([207.46.51.80] helo=outbound4-sin-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK1-0008L5-8B for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:57 -0500 Received: from outbound4-sin.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound4-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D8D902447; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail9-sin-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.252.3]) by outbound4-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D7E28005E; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail9-sin (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail9-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4A3EA03AF; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail9-sin (MessageSwitch) id 1173163131629711_22323; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UCT) Received: from USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.251.196]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail9-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB9337807C; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5) with ESMTP id 2007030522384709-317056 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:38:47 -0800 In-Reply-To: <45ECF1CD.5070500@yahoo-inc.com> To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 CCH1 March 07, 2006 From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:37:05 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 03/05/2007 22:37:06, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 22:37:06, Itemize by SMTP Server on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 10:38:47 PM, Serialize by Router on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 10:38:51 PM, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 10:38:51 PM X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0306167789==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0306167789== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0022513D88257296_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0022513D88257296_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" So is it your belief that the draft is satisfactory as-is? Frankly, I don't think "tag wisely" says anything at all. "Wise" is not defined and is subject to interpretation. I'd settle for a SHOULD NOT, but I am not satisfied with the draft as-is and there is a lot of confusion about this in my industry where audio and and text languages must be distinguished. So yes, you will find two properties -- one for audio language and one for text language, but more often than not, the list used for user classification will be the same for both categories and this results in junk data. There is an increasing amount of audio content on the web, so it's not just a problem for film and television. I realize that text labels that appear in a drop-down are different from code tags, but of course, these choices ultimately end up as BCP 47 tags in XML formats that are increasingly used in my industry. Karen Broome Addison Phillips 03/05/2007 08:45 PM To Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com cc John Cowan , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) I'm not saying I think there is such as thing as "audio Traditional Chinese". What I'm saying is: trying to prevent software from making obvious (if wrong) choices is not realistic. "Audio Traditional Chinese" is silly... but entirely possible, no? TTS engines aren't always in the position of knowing how to modify a language tag. They are not people, after all. And what I'm pointing out is not the ideal design, but rather a "likely enough" scenario. In any case, my point is that using "MUST NOT" with script subtags for audio content doesn't necessarily act as a remedy for the problme, any more than we can offer for many other dubious choices one could make with language tags. I am cautious about introducing normative language, especially where it pertains to tag choices. In particular, tag choice is (will we, nill we) something that normative language cannot adequately control. We should use strong language to oppose silly tags. But we should also permit implementations the latitude to deal with silliness. Normative language applied overweeningly will simply be ignored. That is worse than the alternative. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. --=_alternative 0022513D88257296_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
So is it your belief that the draft is satisfactory as-is?

Frankly, I don't think "tag wisely" says anything at all. "Wise" is not defined and is subject to interpretation. I'd settle for a SHOULD NOT, but I am not satisfied with the draft as-is and there is a lot of confusion about this in my industry where audio and and text languages must be distinguished. So yes, you will find two properties -- one for audio language and one for text language, but more often than not, the list used for user classification will be the same for both categories and this results in junk data. There is an increasing amount of audio content on the web, so it's not just a problem for film and television.

I realize that text labels that appear in a drop-down are different from code tags, but of course, these choices ultimately end up as BCP 47 tags in XML formats that are increasingly used in my industry.

Karen Broome



Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>

03/05/2007 08:45 PM

To
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
cc
John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for        changes sification will be the same for both categories and this results in junk data. There is an increasing amount of audio content on the web, so it's not just a problem for film and television. I realize that text labels that appear in a drop-down are different from code tags, but of course, these choices ultimately end up as BCP 47 tags in XML formats that are increasingly used in my industry. Karen Broome Addison Phillips 03/05/2007 08:45 PM To Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com cc John Cowan , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) I'm not saying I think there is such as thing as "audio Traditional Chinese". What I'm saying is: trying to prevent software from making obvious (if wrong) choices is not realistic. "Audio Traditional Chinese" is silly... but entirely possible, no? TTS engines aren't always in the position of knowing how to modify a language tag. They are not people, after all. And what I'm pointing out is not the ideal design, but rather a "likely enough" scenario. In any case, my point is that using "MUST NOT" with script subtags for audio content doesn't necessarily act as a remedy for the problme, any more than we can offer for many other dubious choices one could make with language tags. I am cautious about introducing normative language, especially where it pertains to tag choices. In particular, tag choice is (will we, nill we) something that normative language cannot adequately control. We should use strong language to oppose silly tags. But we should also permit implementations the latitude to deal with silliness. Normative language applied overweeningly will simply be ignored. That is worse than the alternative. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. --=_alternative 0022513D88257296_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
So is it your belief that the draft is satisfactory as-is?

Frankly, I don't think "tag wisely" says anything at all. "Wise" is not defined and is subject to interpretation. I'd settle for a SHOULD NOT, but I am not satisfied with the draft as-is and there is a lot of confusion about this in my industry where audio and and text languages must be distinguished. So yes, you will find two properties -- one for audio language and one for text language, but more often than not, the list used for user classification will be the same for both categories and this results in junk data. There is an increasing amount of audio content on the web, so it's not just a problem for film and television.

I realize that text labels that appear in a drop-down are different from code tags, but of course, these choices ultimately end up as BCP 47 tags in XML formats that are increasingly used in my industry.

Karen Broome



Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>

03/05/2007 08:45 PM

To
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
cc
John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for        changes        to latest draft)





I'm not saying I think there is such as thing as "audio Traditional
Chinese". What I'm saying is: trying to prevent software from making
obvious (if wrong) choices is not realistic. "Audio Traditional Chinese"
is silly... but entirely possible, no?

TTS engines aren't always in the position of knowing how to modify a
language tag. They are not people, after all. And what I'm pointing out
is not the ideal design, but rather a "likely enough" scenario.

In any case, my point is that using "MUST NOT" with script subtags for
audio content doesn't necessarily act as a remedy for the problme, any
more than we can offer for many other dubious choices one could make
with language tags. I am cautious about introducing normative language,
especially where it pertains to tag choices.

In particular, tag choice is (will we, nill we) something that normative
language cannot adequately control. We should use strong language to
oppose silly tags. But we should also permit implementations the
latitude to deal with silliness. Normative language applied
overweeningly will simply be ignored. That is worse than the alternative.

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.
--=_alternative 0022513D88257296_=-- --===============0306167789== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0306167789==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 01:39:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK6-0004Vz-CV; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK5-0004Vd-EM for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:57 -0500 Received: from outbound-sin.frontbridge.com ([207.46.51.80] helo=outbound3-sin-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK0-0008L3-Qq for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:57 -0500 Received: from outbound3-sin.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound3-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E358ECDD7; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail61-sin-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.252.3]) by outbound3-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 776401BF0054; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail61-sin (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail61-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA07191035D; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail61-sin (MessageSwitch) id 1173163131252302_19172; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UCT) Received: from USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.251.196]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail61-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F9C1188066; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5) with ESMTP id 2007030522384698-317055 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:38:46 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 CCH1 March 07, 2006 From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Message-ID:





I'm not saying I think there is such as thing as "audio Traditional
Chinese". What I'm saying is: trying to prevent software from making
obvious (if wrong) choices is not realistic. "Audio Traditional Chinese"
is silly... but entirely possible, no?

TTS engines aren't always in the position of knowing how to modify a
language tag. They are not people, after all. And what I'm pointing out
is not the ideal design, but rather a "likely enough" scenario.

In any case, my point is that using "MUST NOT" with script subtags for
audio content doesn't necessarily act as a remedy for the problme, any
more than we can offer for many other dubious choices one could make
with language tags. I am cautious about introducing normative language,
especially where it pertains to tag choices.

In particular, tag choice is (will we, nill we) something that normative
language cannot adequately control. We should use strong language to
oppose silly tags. But we should also permit implementations the
latitude to deal with silliness. Normative language applied
overweeningly will simply be ignored. That is worse than the alternative.

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.
--=_alternative 0022513D88257296_=-- --===============0306167789== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0306167789==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 01:39:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK6-0004Vz-CV; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK5-0004Vd-EM for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:57 -0500 Received: from outbound-sin.frontbridge.com ([207.46.51.80] helo=outbound3-sin-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTK0-0008L3-Qq for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:38:57 -0500 Received: from outbound3-sin.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound3-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E358ECDD7; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail61-sin-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.252.3]) by outbound3-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 776401BF0054; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail61-sin (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail61-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA07191035D; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail61-sin (MessageSwitch) id 1173163131252302_19172; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UCT) Received: from USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.251.196]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail61-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F9C1188066; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:38:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5) with ESMTP id 2007030522384698-317055 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:38:46 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 CCH1 March 07, 2006 From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:37:04 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 03/05/2007 22:37:06, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 22:37:06, Itemize by SMTP Server on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 10:38:46 PM, Serialize by Router on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 10:38:50 PM, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 10:38:50 PM X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4a24b484706be629f915bfb1a3e4771 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1643493184==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1643493184== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0018B34E88257296_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0018B34E88257296_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Or, I suppose, Addison's argument would indicate that the converted Braille "text" wasn't Braille at all, but Traditional Chinese. Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com 03/05/2007 08:17 PM To John Cowan cc Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) It seems you are agreeing with me, John. Addison's argument was that when Traditional Chinese is run through a text-to-speech application, it becomes "audio Traditional Chinese." I strongly disagree. If Addison's argument is extended from text-to-speech applications to text-to-Braille applications, then following his logic, the Braille output would be Traditional Chinese too, leading to the necessity for two script tags and that does not make sense to me. When a language is run through any kind of converter, it is transformed and so there is a "before" and an "after" language. Audio languages are not written in scripts and I don't think "audio" Traditional Chinese makes any sense. With all due respect, Karen Broome Metadata Systems Designer Sony Pictures Entertainment 310.244.4384 John Cowan 03/05/2007 08:02 PM To Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com cc Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm > sure we don't want to amend the text to allow double script tags, do we? No. Braille is Brai, and the type of Braille would have to be represented in a variant tag if it could not be recovered from the language and country subtags: e.g. ustype1 and ustype2. -- What asininity could I have uttered John Cowan that they applaud me thus? http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Phocion, Greek orator _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_alternative 0018B34E88257296_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Or, I suppose, Addison's argument would indicate that the converted Braille "text" wasn't Braille at all, but Traditional Chinese.



0248206@spe.sony.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:37:04 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 03/05/2007 22:37:06, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 22:37:06, Itemize by SMTP Server on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 10:38:46 PM, Serialize by Router on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/05/2007 10:38:50 PM, Serialize complete at 03/05/2007 10:38:50 PM X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4a24b484706be629f915bfb1a3e4771 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1643493184==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1643493184== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0018B34E88257296_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0018B34E88257296_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Or, I suppose, Addison's argument would indicate that the converted Braille "text" wasn't Braille at all, but Traditional Chinese. Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com 03/05/2007 08:17 PM To John Cowan cc Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) It seems you are agreeing with me, John. Addison's argument was that when Traditional Chinese is run through a text-to-speech application, it becomes "audio Traditional Chinese." I strongly disagree. If Addison's argument is extended from text-to-speech applications to text-to-Braille applications, then following his logic, the Braille output would be Traditional Chinese too, leading to the necessity for two script tags and that does not make sense to me. When a language is run through any kind of converter, it is transformed and so there is a "before" and an "after" language. Audio languages are not written in scripts and I don't think "audio" Traditional Chinese makes any sense. With all due respect, Karen Broome Metadata Systems Designer Sony Pictures Entertainment 310.244.4384 John Cowan 03/05/2007 08:02 PM To Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com cc Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm > sure we don't want to amend the text to allow double script tags, do we? No. Braille is Brai, and the type of Braille would have to be represented in a variant tag if it could not be recovered from the language and country subtags: e.g. ustype1 and ustype2. -- What asininity could I have uttered John Cowan that they applaud me thus? http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Phocion, Greek orator _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_alternative 0018B34E88257296_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Or, I suppose, Addison's argument would indicate that the converted Braille "text" wasn't Braille at all, but Traditional Chinese.



Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com

03/05/2007 08:17 PM

To
John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
cc
Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for        changes        to        latest draft)






It seems you are agreeing with me, John.

Addison's argument  was that when Traditional Chinese is run through a text-to-speech application, it becomes "audio Traditional Chinese." I strongly disagree.

If Addison's argument is extended from text-to-speech applications to text-to-Braille applications, then following his logic, the Braille output would be Traditional Chinese too, leading to the necessity for two script tags and that does not make sense to me. When a language is run through any kind of converter, it is transformed and so there is a "before" and an "after" language.

Audio languages are not written in scripts and I don't think "audio" Traditional Chinese makes any sense.

With all due respect,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384

John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>

03/05/2007 08:02 PM


To
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
cc
Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes        to        latest draft)







Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit:

> By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm
> sure we don't want  to amend the text to allow double script tags, do we?

No.  Braille is Brai, and the type of Braille would have to be represented
in a variant tag if it could not be recovered from the language and
country subtags:  e.g. ustype1 and ustype2.

--
What asininity could I have uttered     John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
that they applaud me thus?              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
      --Phocion, Greek orator

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https:/ Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com

03/05/2007 08:17 PM
To
John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
cc
Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for        changes        to        latest draft)






It seems you are agreeing with me, John.

Addison's argument  was that when Traditional Chinese is run through a text-to-speech application, it becomes "audio Traditional Chinese." I strongly disagree.

If Addison's argument is extended from text-to-speech applications to text-to-Braille applications, then following his logic, the Braille output would be Traditional Chinese too, leading to the necessity for two script tags and that does not make sense to me. When a language is run through any kind of converter, it is transformed and so there is a "before" and an "after" language.

Audio languages are not written in scripts and I don't think "audio" Traditional Chinese makes any sense.

With all due respect,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384

John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>

03/05/2007 08:02 PM


To
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
cc
Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes        to        latest draft)







Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit:

> By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm
> sure we don't want  to amend the text to allow double script tags, do we?

No.  Braille is Brai, and the type of Braille would have to be represented
in a variant tag if it could not be recovered from the language and
country subtags:  e.g. ustype1 and ustype2.

--
What asininity could I have uttered     John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
that they applaud me thus?              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
      --Phocion, Greek orator

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
--=_alternative 0018B34E88257296_=-- --===============1643493184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1643493184==-- /www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

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--=_alternative 0018B34E88257296_=-- --===============1643493184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1643493184==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 01:42:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTNA-0005K2-DC; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:42:08 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTN8-0005Jv-OQ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:42:06 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTN5-0000Ej-VR for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:42:06 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l266fp2F013483 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:41:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 7ca6_c3d15622_cbad_11db_8980_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:41:50 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:39764) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:40:36 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070306120825.0a4cad20@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:40:59 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" , "Addison Phillips" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposals for changes to latest draft In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703051001k31dc4bbaqcf5ece3c525abe57@mail.gmail.co m> References: <30b660a20702270758y544a42bcl9d78f0806df8d05c@mail.gmail.com> <20070227195053.GB1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E49284.4060107@yahoo-inc.com> <20070227204913.GE1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E4A6CB.4080005@yahoo-inc.com> <20070227230724.GI1965@mercury.ccil.org> <45E4D531.2030104@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703051001k31dc4bbaqcf5ece3c525abe57@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 03:01 07/03/06, Mark Davis wrote: >2. LSR term. Our goal for this is roll to have someone who is: > * Organized, responsive, and timely > * Polite and considerate; giving due consideration to all reasoned points of view > * Completely familiar with all technical aspects and requirements of BCP 47 > * Aware of the usage of BCP 47 tags in practice, in HTML, HTTP, XML, &c. > * Able to draw upon and assess the contributions of language experts in order to come to consensus. >We owe it to users of the registry to get the best candidate for the job, and having a call for candidates every two years provides the opportunity to do so. I think it's very important to realize that these (as written above) are goals. It's very clear that nobody is perfect, and even more, nobody does a perfect job for free. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 01:44:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTP4-00078W-Kz; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:44:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTP2-00078O-RE for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:44:04 -0500 Received: from mailb.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTOz-0000hq-Fm for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:44:04 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:44:00 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:44:00 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:43:57 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Thread-Index: AcdfqktQlVBXXKN5SziU6wK5wvqITwAD0VPw Message-ID: References: <45ECF1CD.5070500@yahoo-inc.com> In-Reply-To: <45ECF1CD.5070500@yahoo-inc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I agree that tagging audio content for script is inappropriate and strongly= to be discouraged; but I also agree with Addison that we should not impose= a difficult implementation constraint to guarantee that such bad subtag co= mbinations absolutely never occur -- which is what MUST NOT would entail. It's really on a par with tagging French content as "de" -- the tag itself = is an acceptable tag, but it would be completely inappropriate used in that= context. If an author makes that choice, that's not a problem of any softw= are that processes the tag. If some automated language detection software m= akes the choice, there's a problem with that software, but it's still not a= problem with the software processing the tag. Similarly, "zh-Hant" is an a= cceptable tag, but if an author or some process detecting the format of the= content makes an error, that doesn't mean that the software processing the= tag itself has been implemented in a non-conformant manner. IMO, conformance should be about proper construction and interpretation of = tags, not about guaranteeing that the choice of tag applied to content is a= lways the most appropriate. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:45 PM To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to = latest draft) I'm not saying I think there is such as thing as "audio Traditional Chinese". What I'm saying is: trying to prevent software from making obvious (if wrong) choices is not realistic. "Audio Traditional Chinese" is silly... but entirely possible, no? TTS engines aren't always in the position of knowing how to modify a language tag. They are not people, after all. And what I'm pointing out is not the ideal design, but rather a "likely enough" scenario. In any case, my point is that using "MUST NOT" with script subtags for audio content doesn't necessarily act as a remedy for the problme, any more than we can offer for many other dubious choices one could make with language tags. I am cautious about introducing normative language, especially where it pertains to tag choices. In particular, tag choice is (will we, nill we) something that normative language cannot adequately control. We should use strong language to oppose silly tags. But we should also permit implementations the latitude to deal with silliness. Normative language applied overweeningly will simply be ignored. That is worse than the alternative. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 01:50:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTVD-0005jp-IA; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:50:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTVB-0005jG-VG for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:50:25 -0500 Received: from mta16.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTSd-000121-4o for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:47:48 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070306064746.WGS2765.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:47:46 -0500 Message-ID: <006801c75fbb$59dd0ad0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:47:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposals for changes to latest draft X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: >> Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we are >> stuck with any mistakes from then on. > > Actually not. What the LSR sends to IANA is authoritative; if IANA > botches the update, IANA can fix it. Indeed, this has already happened four times since the Registry went live in October 2005. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 01:51:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTWd-00062n-2H; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:51:55 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTWb-00061W-Vf for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:51:53 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTWa-0001SJ-9I for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:51:53 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOTWa-000360-Fc for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:51:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:51:52 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20070306065152.GA26494@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Subject: [Ltru] Proposal: URIs for language tags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org There are various contexts in which non-representational objects such as languages are represented by URIs. At present, there is no standard URI for a BCP 47 language tag. The current draft of RDF-Topic Maps Interoperability proposes a local set of URIs, but I think it would be better to have a universal set. This would be a new section of 4646bis, and the issues are 1) whether to do it at all 2) what set of URIs to use. I think something of the form http://www.iana.org/assignments/XXXX?en-us would be suitable. Note the lowercasing of the tag part. This is a URI pattern, not an URL pattern, and need not return anything in particular when fetched. We should negotiate with IANA to determine the appropriate value of XXXX. IMHO "language-subtag-registry" is inappropriate, and "language-tags" and "lang-tags/XXX" are in use for the old 3066 registry. "langtag", singular, no hyphen, might be good. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Today an interactive brochure website, tomorrow a global content management system that leverages collective synergy to drive "outside of the box" thinking and formulate key objectives into a win-win game plan with a quality-driven approach that focuses on empowering key players to drive-up their core competencies and increase expectations with an all-around initiative to drive up the bottom-line. --Alex Papadimoulis _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 01:58:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTdG-00049U-OG; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:58:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTdG-00049P-3P for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:58:46 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTdB-00022r-Ee for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:58:45 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:58:40 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.117]) with mapi; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:58:40 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: Gerard Meijssen , Stephane Bortzmeyer Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:58:37 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Index: AcdfkNovAn9fzsO1Qi2adV5a9ns+EgAKjy0Q Message-ID: References: <001901c75a16$ac85f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45E3DD61.7010406@gmail.com> <002501c75a43$634e6820$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702262357o3d2ef494s9b5e2ad7cd91b9a@mail.gmail.com> <003001c75a46$d0d85ec0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702270036y54918b6cw6d65f406b4f2d60@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Cc: Gerard Meijssen , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Perhaps before anybody goes making proclamations about Microsoft's stance w= rt standards they should understand the facts. I've seen repeated claims ab= out OOXML and non-use of ISO 639. E.g., "Some of the objections over OOXML are based around the fact that it does n= ot use existing ISO standards for some of the bits in it. They list 7 ISO s= tandards that OOXML does not use: 8601 dates and times; 639 names and langu= ages; 8632 computer graphics and metafiles; 10118-3 cryptography as well as= a handful of W3C standards." While I'm not exactly satisfied with how language tagging is handled in the= ECMA standard for OOXML, the above statement simply is factually wrong wrt= ISO 639. I'm particularly astounded that the earliest false claims appear to have co= me from a law firm that reviewed the doc. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:46 AM To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: Gerard Meijssen; LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in = draft Registry Stephane Bortzmeyer schreef: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100, > Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote > a message of 18 lines which said: > > >> Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RFC >> 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of >> the complications involved. >> > > Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's > comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to > tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way: > > http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html > http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections > http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=3D200701171= 45745854 > > If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up. Hoi, It is also a good moment to reflect.. Microsoft is not interested in Standards. What is the point of considering Microsoft's position at all as a consequence ? Thanks, Gerard _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 02:13:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTro-0000M5-90; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:13:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTrm-0000I0-Jc for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:13:46 -0500 Received: from maila.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTrl-0004Fa-6V for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:13:46 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:13:44 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.185]) with mapi; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:13:44 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:13:41 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Index: AcdeQpEheqkNi2+vTzSK6q0dZ3Hd3QBerfDQ Message-ID: References: <001901c75a16$ac85f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45E3DD61.7010406@gmail.com> <002501c75a43$634e6820$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702262357o3d2ef494s9b5e2ad7cd91b9a@mail.gmail.com> <003001c75a46$d0d85ec0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702270036y54918b6cw6d65f406b4f2d60@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The page on www.consortiuminfo.org was prepared by a legal analyst speciali= zing in technology, Andy Updegrove, of the law firm Gesmer Updegrove LLP. H= is page makes the statemewnt: "More substantively in the contradiction department, OOXML does not follow = ISO 639 "Codes for the Representation of Names and Languages." That standa= rd defines a list of codes that are maintained by a Registration Authority = charged with keeping the list current as ethno-linguistic changes evolve. = Instead, section 2.18.52, "ST_LangCode (Two Digit Hexadecimal Language Code= )" (page 2531) says that you must use a fixed list of numeric language code= s rather than the already existing set that provide for interoperability am= ong other standards-compliant products - a not unimportant factor in a text= standard." While it is true that a fixed list of numeric values (represented as hex st= rings) are required for ST_LangCode, it is factually incorrect that the fil= e format requires use of a fixed list of numeric language codes rather than= tags based on ISO 639. The file format does not require use of ST_LangCode= ; this is only one of two simple types for language-identifier values. The = other uses ISO 639; there is nothing whatsoever in the spec that indicates = any preference for the former over the latter. Frankly, if I had seen the level of analysis demonstrated on an entrance ex= am, I probably would have rejected the candidate from entrance into law sch= ool. It's disgraceful. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 1:49 AM To: Gerard Meijssen Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in = draft Registry On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote a message of 18 lines which said: > Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RFC > 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of > the complications involved. Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=3D20070117145= 745854 If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 02:17:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTvp-0005LR-1h; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:17:57 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTvo-0005Cd-4D for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:17:56 -0500 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.191]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOTvn-0004uC-G8 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:17:56 -0500 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l36so2524399nfa for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:17:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=OPOifLA5vyuvKT/z2QUOgs99iEs62lzF8D4aj/Y57DahMffWChX37CC15fIKPzZW1/p91tAK/vSu1TIhaig3uwkRFV0a/ub8MWrwmy0aPhvK2S3pNmDSdS5MvwRjCbk7czH2ykxT/wch1Cwuv/ClAGuJctPRQwsCJH3Bf/dnCAQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=dbFmpkW+DQ+cYAMmh1SJiCDgbhp9ztQwSRDOLi+2XN/DBJv0Cjqon2EAozzJkeQv6eqlouE66jKEUVbstREjgwoNBP5DHomZdMbC853o8v5M1HE1FtsvZuBJ7okTcxAdfmCBjplS6AX/UlTGd3eZw4AEZWch6fHjrfcrXCC63sU= Received: by 10.82.167.5 with SMTP id p5mr6396604bue.1173165474619; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.148.11 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:17:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41a006820703052317o66cfd7eeucf3a806f9b34234a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:17:54 +0100 From: GerardM To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001901c75a16$ac85f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702262357o3d2ef494s9b5e2ad7cd91b9a@mail.gmail.com> <003001c75a46$d0d85ec0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702270036y54918b6cw6d65f406b4f2d60@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0319081824==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0319081824== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_88849_20718560.1173165474553" ------=_Part_88849_20718560.1173165474553 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi, Given that "get the facts" is a Microsoft marketing slogan, it would be nice to have some facts and not a statement that "it is factually wrong". The point here is the support of ISO-639 support. The document on OOXML is notorious for its size and complexity; it is not something where you want to go if you can help it. Given that you are working for Microsoft, could you please isolate the relevant parts that explicitly and unambiguously provide the facts as to the position of the standards that are of relevance to us ? Thanks, Gerard On 3/6/07, Peter Constable wrote: > > Perhaps before anybody goes making proclamations about Microsoft's stance > wrt standards they should understand the facts. I've seen repeated claims > about OOXML and non-use of ISO 639. E.g., > > "Some of the objections over OOXML are based around the fact that it does > not use existing ISO standards for some of the bits in it. They list 7 ISO > standards that OOXML does not use: 8601 dates and times; 639 names and > languages; 8632 computer graphics and metafiles; 10118-3 cryptography as > well as a handful of W3C standards." > > While I'm not exactly satisfied with how language tagging is handled in > the ECMA standard for OOXML, the above statement simply is factually wrong > wrt ISO 639. > > I'm particularly astounded that the earliest false claims appear to have > come from a law firm that reviewed the doc. > > > Peter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:46 AM > To: Stephane Bortzmeyer > Cc: Gerard Meijssen; LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in > draft Registry > > Stephane Bortzmeyer schreef: > > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100, > > Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote > > a message of 18 lines which said: > > > > > >> Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RFC > >> 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of > >> the complications involved. > >> > > > > Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's > > comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to > > tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way: > > > > http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html > > http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections > > > http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20070117145745854 > > > > If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up. > Hoi, > It is also a good moment to reflect.. Microsoft is not interested in > Standards. What is the point of considering Microsoft's position at all > as a consequence ? > Thanks, > Gerard > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_88849_20718560.1173165474553 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi,
Given that "get the facts" is a Microsoft marketing slogan, it would be nice to have some facts and not a statement that "it is factually wrong". The point here is the support of ISO-639 support. The document on OOXML is notorious for its size and complexity; it is not something where you want to go if you can help it.

Given that you are working for Microsoft, could you please isolate the relevant parts that explicitly and unambiguously provide the facts as to the position of the standards that are of relevance to us ?

Thanks,
     Gerard

On 3/6/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
Perhaps before anybody goes making proclamations about Microsoft's stance wrt standards they should understand the facts. I've seen repeated claims about OOXML and non-use of ISO 639. E.g.,

"Some of the objections over OOXML are based around the fact that it does not use existing ISO standards for some of the bits in it. They list 7 ISO standards that OOXML does not use: 8601 dates and times; 639 names and languages; 8632 computer graphics and metafiles; 10118-3 cryptography as well as a handful of W3C standards."

While I'm not exactly satisfied with how language tagging is handled in the ECMA standard for OOXML, the above statement simply is factually wrong wrt ISO 639.

I'm particularly astounded that the earliest false claims appear to have come from a law firm that reviewed the doc.


Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:46 AM
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer
Cc: Gerard Meijssen; LTRU Working Group
Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry

Stephane Bortzmeyer schreef:
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100,
>  Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote
>  a message of 18 lines which said:
>
>
>> Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RFC
>> 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of
>> the complications involved.
>>
>
> Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's
> comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to
> tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way:
>
> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html
> http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections
> http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20070117145745854
>
> If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up.
Hoi,
It is also a good moment to reflect.. Microsoft is not interested in
Standards. What is the point of considering Microsoft's position at all
as a consequence ?
Thanks,
    Gerard

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------=_Part_88849_20718560.1173165474553-- --===============0319081824== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0319081824==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 02:42:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUJJ-0005fB-Ma; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:42:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUJJ-0005f6-2D for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:42:13 -0500 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUJF-00083Q-9v for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:42:13 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.114) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:42:08 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.114]) with mapi; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:42:08 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: GerardM Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:42:05 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Index: Acdfv5B6XHfNNb8rQ7mtsDgnLtKocgAAjTfw Message-ID: References: <001901c75a16$ac85f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702262357o3d2ef494s9b5e2ad7cd91b9a@mail.gmail.com> <003001c75a46$d0d85ec0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702270036y54918b6cw6d65f406b4f2d60@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> <41a006820703052317o66cfd7eeucf3a806f9b34234a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <41a006820703052317o66cfd7eeucf3a806f9b34234a@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d8921dd2ebcb07edebf7bfaf4808c2ad Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1537993074==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1537993074== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE094NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE094NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The spec may be big, but it's not that opaque. It took me a very short time= to sort out the relevant facts. My working for MS has nothing to do with t= he facts which anyone can readily ascertain: read the spec, not the hype. I= f you want accurate details, you can start with the letter from LSA to ANSI= , which is the only accurate analysis that has been stated publicly that I'= m aware of: http://lsadc.org/info/lsa-ansi-letter.cfm. (The "Background" st= atement has a bit of a misleading tone; read the letter itself.) Peter From: GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 11:18 PM To: Peter Constable Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates= in draft Registry Hoi, Given that "get the facts" is a Microsoft marketing slogan, it would be nic= e to have some facts and not a statement that "it is factually wrong". The = point here is the support of ISO-639 support. The document on OOXML is noto= rious for its size and complexity; it is not something where you want to go= if you can help it. Given that you are working for Microsoft, could you please isolate the rele= vant parts that explicitly and unambiguously provide the facts as to the po= sition of the standards that are of relevance to us ? Thanks, Gerard On 3/6/07, Peter Constable > wrote: Perhaps before anybody goes making proclamations about Microsoft's stance w= rt standards they should understand the facts. I've seen repeated claims ab= out OOXML and non-use of ISO 639. E.g., "Some of the objections over OOXML are based around the fact that it does n= ot use existing ISO standards for some of the bits in it. They list 7 ISO s= tandards that OOXML does not use: 8601 dates and times; 639 names and langu= ages; 8632 computer graphics and metafiles; 10118-3 cryptography as well as= a handful of W3C standards." While I'm not exactly satisfied with how language tagging is handled in the= ECMA standard for OOXML, the above statement simply is factually wrong wrt= ISO 639. I'm particularly astounded that the earliest false claims appear to have co= me from a law firm that reviewed the doc. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:46 AM To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: Gerard Meijssen; LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in = draft Registry Stephane Bortzmeyer schreef: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100, > Stephane Bortzmeyer > wrote > a message of 18 lines which said: > > >> Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RFC >> 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of >> the complications involved. >> > > Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's > comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to > tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way: > > http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html > http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections > http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=3D200701171= 45745854 > > If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up. Hoi, It is also a good moment to reflect.. Microsoft is not interested in Standards. What is the point of considering Microsoft's position at all as a consequence ? Thanks, Gerard _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE094NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The spec may be big, but it’s not that opaque. It took= me a very short time to sort out the relevant facts. My working for MS has not= hing to do with the facts which anyone can readily ascertain: read the spec, not= the hype. If you want accurate details, you can start with the letter from LSA = to ANSI, which is the only accurate analysis that has been stated publicly tha= t I’m aware of: http= ://lsadc.org/info/lsa-ansi-letter.cfm. (The “Background” statement has a bit of a misleading tone; rea= d the letter itself.)

 

 

Peter

 

From: GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 11:18 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry

 

Hoi,
Given that "get the facts" is a Microsoft marketing slogan, it wo= uld be nice to have some facts and not a statement that "it is factually wrong". The point here is the support of ISO-639 support. The document= on OOXML is notorious for its size and complexity; it is not something where y= ou want to go if you can help it.

Given that you are working for Microsoft, could you please isolate the rele= vant parts that explicitly and unambiguously provide the facts as to the positio= n of the standards that are of relevance to us ?

Thanks,
     Gerard

On 3/6/07, Peter Constable= <petercon@microsoft.com>= ; wrote:

Perhaps before anybody goes making proclamations about Microsoft's stance wrt standards they should understand the facts. I've see= n repeated claims about OOXML and non-use of ISO 639. E.g.,

"Some of the objections over OOXML are based around the fact that it d= oes not use existing ISO standards for some of the bits in it. They list 7 ISO standards that OOXML does not use: 8601 dates and times; 639 names and languages; 8632 computer graphics and metafiles; 10118-3 cryptography as we= ll as a handful of W3C standards."

While I'm not exactly satisfied with how language tagging is handled in the ECMA standard for OOXML, the above statement simply is factually wrong wrt = ISO 639.

I'm particularly astounded that the earliest false claims appear to have co= me from a law firm that reviewed the doc.


Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:= gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:46 AM
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer
Cc: Gerard Meijssen; LTRU Working Group
Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry

Stephane Bortzmeyer schreef:
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100,
>  Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote
>  a message of 18 lines which said:
>
>
>> Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RF= C
>> 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of
>> the complications involved.
>>
>
> Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's
> comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to=
> tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way:
>
> http://ti= rania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html
> http://= www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections
> http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?sto= ry=3D20070117145745854
>
> If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up.
Hoi,
It is also a good moment to reflect.. Microsoft is not interested in
Standards. What is the point of considering Microsoft's position at all
as a consequence ?
Thanks,
    Gerard

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/ltru

 

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE094NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============1537993074== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1537993074==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 02:42:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUJS-0005fy-1d; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:42:22 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUJQ-0005fq-Kw for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:42:20 -0500 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.187]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUJP-00084m-1D for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:42:20 -0500 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l36so2530113nfa for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:42:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nFVRfWKM7id2GLWLN800rNBUTvFyhKCrQiyD3AcYe2YL0T4Ntat+Y+W5TN0oQPSsIZPb8p5xEXs0qHWk1G8/ed2q+MBeuLNaXLKpPcE7TOyrZcbIizG57vLgiXogQ0yWmq9s2CtoupNbyzCtxB1Pr/bNX5afIUM5r7BspircRWo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=OBC37W8NtBkVbBOaQeP30wprowqbJEEWszstXQx68jE8QbIBic4gCrke4PIrkGGVkkK7Mk3+URBCKlec3RC7NcvtfOjsADec0BnOVaaoXhfSDCPEhf9GU6r0FDkyVlrj47EIT9y37egF5SqR6DPcIhcA/qSGsmh5ibt9+ZUp71g= Received: by 10.82.107.15 with SMTP id f15mr6421227buc.1173166938007; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.148.11 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:42:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41a006820703052342p6264703l25a4f8eabd491da9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:42:17 +0100 From: GerardM To: "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20070306040215.GI17952@mercury.ccil.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 86f85b2f88b0d50615aed44a7f9e33c7 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1553118726==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1553118726== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_89086_2669003.1173166937925" ------=_Part_89086_2669003.1173166937925 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi, When you have audio of Chinese, it is so ambiguous it is next to meaningless. The point of Chinese is that it is written the same way for many languages. Audio Chinese removes the one binding aspect of all these languages. Thanks, GerardM On 3/6/07, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote: > > > It seems you are agreeing with me, John. > > Addison's argument was that when Traditional Chinese is run through a > text-to-speech application, it becomes "audio Traditional Chinese." I > strongly disagree. > > If Addison's argument is extended from text-to-speech applications to > text-to-Braille applications, then following his logic, the Braille output > would be Traditional Chinese too, leading to the necessity for two script > tags and that does not make sense to me. When a language is run through any > kind of converter, it is transformed and so there is a "before" and an > "after" language. > > Audio languages are not written in scripts and I don't think "audio" > Traditional Chinese makes any sense. > > With all due respect, > > Karen Broome > Metadata Systems Designer > Sony Pictures Entertainment > 310.244.4384 > > > *John Cowan * > > 03/05/2007 08:02 PM > To > Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com cc > Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group > Subject > Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to > latest draft) > > > > > > > Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > > > By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm > > > sure we don't want to amend the text to allow double script tags, do > we? > > No. Braille is Brai, and the type of Braille would have to be represented > in a variant tag if it could not be recovered from the language and > country subtags: e.g. ustype1 and ustype2. > > -- > What asininity could I have uttered John Cowan > that they applaud me thus? http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > --Phocion, Greek orator > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > ------=_Part_89086_2669003.1173166937925 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi,
When you have audio of Chinese, it is so ambiguous it is next to meaningless. The point of Chinese is that it is written the same way for many languages. Audio Chinese removes the one binding aspect of all these languages.
Thanks,
    GerardM

On 3/6/07, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com < Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:

It seems you are agreeing with me, John.

Addison's argument  was that when Traditional Chinese is run through a text-to-speech application, it becomes "audio Traditional Chinese." I strongly disagree.

If Addison's argument is extended from text-to-speech applications to text-to-Braille applications, then following his logic, the Braille output would be Traditional Chinese too, leading to the necessity for two script tags and that does not make sense to me. When a language is run through any kind of converter, it is transformed and so there is a "before" and an "after" language.

Audio languages are not written in scripts and I don't think "audio" Traditional Chinese makes any sense.

With all due respect,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384


John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>

03/05/2007 08:02 PM

To
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
cc
Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes        to        latest draft)







Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit:

> By Addison's argument we could have Traditional Chinese Braille, and I'm
> sure we don't want  to amend the text to allow double script tags, do we?

No.  Braille is Brai, and the type of Braille would have to be represented
in a variant tag if it could not be recovered from the language and
country subtags:  e.g. ustype1 and ustype2.

--
What asininity could I have uttered     John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
that they applaud me thus?              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
       --Phocion, Greek orator

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

_______________________________________________
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Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


------=_Part_89086_2669003.1173166937925-- --===============1553118726== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1553118726==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 02:46:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUNi-0007tu-L1; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:46:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUNh-0007tm-9i for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:46:45 -0500 Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.189]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUNf-0000MX-E6 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:46:45 -0500 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id g7so1881067muf for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:46:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=O/WgU/5TsBUBiJsLmrOeiEjfExTde68De1isNn0Z+SMDgMGUuZYosQ313hiqDhiesU8b6lg1gMogohrgrwXeuP5O2+cgAm0k4glDTRE/v6fhaYijnZLlbJGTX0qaIhIYmy7CnHuLXkMVRwdHUdjwSpS89JrL/tEibavZExvwHtg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=L4Ddlsm88xH0wukdbpc6uhA1tXd+gOFV5YTDrNoU1RONo3+ti5Umy353OznQdCQuKeOVIUbU9hD1f/D7pBEPwAaDHjMQcpb2p0w4fTC/buN1RSHfAKqJeo6HF+EMxMsvDBWTrPv9+WJ24J2RV1UUBxRe/K5UxyZXLUj8uJ/amD0= Received: by 10.82.108.9 with SMTP id g9mr6433457buc.1173167202294; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:46:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.148.11 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:46:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41a006820703052346k711bb887r62443947a6857bc3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:46:42 +0100 From: GerardM To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001901c75a16$ac85f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702270036y54918b6cw6d65f406b4f2d60@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> <41a006820703052317o66cfd7eeucf3a806f9b34234a@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8cb9b411340046bf4080a729180a0672 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0256905536==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0256905536== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_89130_12194008.1173167202213" ------=_Part_89130_12194008.1173167202213 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi, In a later post you write: "Instead, section 2.18.52, "ST_LangCode (Two Digit Hexadecimal Language Code)" (page 2531) says that you must use a fixed list of numeric language codes rather than the already existing set that provide for interoperability among other standards-compliant products - a not unimportant factor in a text standard."" This is pretty conclusive I would say.. Where is the standard in there? Thanks, GerardM On 3/6/07, Peter Constable wrote: > > The spec may be big, but it's not that opaque. It took me a very short > time to sort out the relevant facts. My working for MS has nothing to do > with the facts which anyone can readily ascertain: read the spec, not the > hype. If you want accurate details, you can start with the letter from LSA > to ANSI, which is the only accurate analysis that has been stated publicly > that I'm aware of: http://lsadc.org/info/lsa-ansi-letter.cfm. (The > "Background" statement has a bit of a misleading tone; read the letter > itself.) > > > > > > Peter > > > > *From:* GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, March 05, 2007 11:18 PM > *To:* Peter Constable > *Cc:* Stephane Bortzmeyer; LTRU Working Group > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" > dates in draft Registry > > > > Hoi, > Given that "get the facts" is a Microsoft marketing slogan, it would be > nice to have some facts and not a statement that "it is factually wrong". > The point here is the support of ISO-639 support. The document on OOXML is > notorious for its size and complexity; it is not something where you want to > go if you can help it. > > Given that you are working for Microsoft, could you please isolate the > relevant parts that explicitly and unambiguously provide the facts as to the > position of the standards that are of relevance to us ? > > Thanks, > Gerard > > On 3/6/07, *Peter Constable* wrote: > > Perhaps before anybody goes making proclamations about Microsoft's stance > wrt standards they should understand the facts. I've seen repeated claims > about OOXML and non-use of ISO 639. E.g., > > "Some of the objections over OOXML are based around the fact that it does > not use existing ISO standards for some of the bits in it. They list 7 ISO > standards that OOXML does not use: 8601 dates and times; 639 names and > languages; 8632 computer graphics and metafiles; 10118-3 cryptography as > well as a handful of W3C standards." > > While I'm not exactly satisfied with how language tagging is handled in > the ECMA standard for OOXML, the above statement simply is factually wrong > wrt ISO 639. > > I'm particularly astounded that the earliest false claims appear to have > come from a law firm that reviewed the doc. > > > Peter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:46 AM > To: Stephane Bortzmeyer > Cc: Gerard Meijssen; LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in > draft Registry > > Stephane Bortzmeyer schreef: > > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100, > > Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote > > a message of 18 lines which said: > > > > > >> Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RFC > >> 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of > >> the complications involved. > >> > > > > Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's > > comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to > > tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way: > > > > http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html > > http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections > > > http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20070117145745854 > > > > If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up. > Hoi, > It is also a good moment to reflect.. Microsoft is not interested in > Standards. What is the point of considering Microsoft's position at all > as a consequence ? > Thanks, > Gerard > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > ------=_Part_89130_12194008.1173167202213 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi,
In a later post you write: "Instead, section 2.18.52, "ST_LangCode (Two Digit Hexadecimal Language Code)" (page 2531) says that you must use a fixed list of numeric language codes rather than the already existing set that provide for interoperability among other standards-compliant products - a not unimportant factor in a text standard.""

This is pretty conclusive I would say.. Where is the standard in there?
Thanks,
    GerardM

On 3/6/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

The spec may be big, but it's not that opaque. It took me a very short time to sort out the relevant facts. My working for MS has nothing to do with the facts which anyone can readily ascertain: read the spec, not the hype. If you want accurate details, you can start with the letter from LSA to ANSI, which is the only accurate analysis that has been stated publicly that I'm aware of: http://lsadc.org/info/lsa-ansi-letter.cfm. (The "Background" statement has a bit of a misleading tone; read the letter itself.)

 

 

Peter

 

From: GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 11:18 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry

 

Hoi,
Given that "get the facts" is a Microsoft marketing slogan, it would be nice to have some facts and not a statement that "it is factually wrong". The point here is the support of ISO-639 support. The document on OOXML is notorious for its size and complexity; it is not something where you want to go if you can help it.

Given that you are working for Microsoft, could you please isolate the relevant parts that explicitly and unambiguously provide the facts as to the position of the standards that are of relevance to us ?

Thanks,
     Gerard

On 3/6/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

Perhaps before anybody goes making proclamations about Microsoft's stance wrt standards they should understand the facts. I've seen repeated claims about OOXML and non-use of ISO 639. E.g.,

"Some of the objections over OOXML are based around the fact that it does not use existing ISO standards for some of the bits in it. They list 7 ISO standards that OOXML does not use: 8601 dates and times; 639 names and languages; 8632 computer graphics and metafiles; 10118-3 cryptography as well as a handful of W3C standards."

While I'm not exactly satisfied with how language tagging is handled in the ECMA standard for OOXML, the above statement simply is factually wrong wrt ISO 639.

I'm particularly astounded that the earliest false claims appear to have come from a law firm that reviewed the doc.


Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:46 AM
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer
Cc: Gerard Meijssen; LTRU Working Group
Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry

Stephane Bortzmeyer schreef:
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100,
>  Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote
>  a message of 18 lines which said:
>
>
>> Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RFC
>> 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of
>> the complications involved.
>>
>
> Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's
> comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to
> tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way:
>
> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html
> http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections
> http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20070117145745854
>
> If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up.
Hoi,
It is also a good moment to reflect.. Microsoft is not interested in
Standards. What is the point of considering Microsoft's position at all
as a consequence ?
Thanks,
    Gerard

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

 


------=_Part_89130_12194008.1173167202213-- --===============0256905536== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0256905536==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 03:04:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUeY-0006ZL-AK; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:04:10 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUeW-0006T6-Ba for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:04:08 -0500 Received: from numenor.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.58]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUeV-0002Dv-0s for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:04:08 -0500 Received: from sabrina.qualcomm.com (sabrina.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.150]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id l26840GG006421 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:04:01 -0800 Received: from [76.102.1.96] (vpn-10-50-16-21.qualcomm.com [10.50.16.21]) by sabrina.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/1.0) with ESMTP id l2683wIA021633; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:03:59 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <41a006820703052342p6264703l25a4f8eabd491da9@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070306040215.GI17952@mercury.ccil.org> <41a006820703052342p6264703l25a4f8eabd491da9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:03:57 -0800 To: GerardM , "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" From: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 8:42 AM +0100 3/6/07, GerardM wrote: >Hoi, >When you have audio of Chinese, it is so ambiguous it is next to meaningless. The point of Chinese is that it is written the same way for many languages. Audio Chinese removes the one binding aspect of all these languages. >Thanks, > GerardM I do not understand this statement at all. Spoken Chinese is not ambiguous for the community of speakers, and tagging may help indicate which community of speakers is associated with a resource. Are you saying that in the absence of other tags, the range of potential language communities is too varied for "Chinese" to be useful? Ted _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 03:05:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUfd-0007f5-FL; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:05:17 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUfc-0007ez-7H for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:05:16 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.173]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUfa-0002KN-44 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:05:16 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so96492ugd for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:05:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; 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Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0466477454==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 03:08:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUiw-0008Jc-TQ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:08:42 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUiv-0008JL-Pj for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:08:41 -0500 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.239]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUiu-0002fo-Fi for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:08:41 -0500 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i20so1850419wra for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:08:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=aIRDCGKlFzcaKO+ygNyTb8IYj6wUoA7mXvi2p8TW25LlhSUF3dHwWoxtQCku43t0Ogr3OLd3fS7HeRzEFDy+FJYRYASPnoTcbbLFxOIVmOevbILR2Q69AxKGRu4c6cS6bV4ieNFuc2l8wCBCrqRAUnAmPSWO/XAvr4tDdHD+3cQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ewQZTUCtZGp+lSsa4ZpLd50s/6VI1mq9EdRA+Cks288R27h14T33E8DXJk0+8jTG2+T870cCmLhHex6AbxW0qR9iww7dLGcwlWbQhw+M2dpJ1qjV6DLxKnAchI8fs6fu603csBzMoJzfIjywZp4veq1dYyi7Jw+0CmOuNGQIr3I= Received: by 10.114.195.19 with SMTP id s19mr1652465waf.1173168519673; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:08:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703060008q6171c112qcab5b358c29e3938@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:08:39 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Proposals for changes to latest draft In-Reply-To: <006801c75fbb$59dd0ad0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <006801c75fbb$59dd0ad0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: d1e71ec952fe746d X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0492782373==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0492782373== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_164441_19796904.1173168519597" ------=_Part_164441_19796904.1173168519597 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline And that's a bad thing, since if someone picks up a copy of the registry and uses it in their software, glitches get propagated. Witness the infamous (in our circle) 'jw', which resulted from a publication error. Mark On 3/5/07, Doug Ewell wrote: > > John Cowan wrote: > > >> Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we are > >> stuck with any mistakes from then on. > > > > Actually not. What the LSR sends to IANA is authoritative; if IANA > > botches the update, IANA can fix it. > > Indeed, this has already happened four times since the Registry went > live in October 2005. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_164441_19796904.1173168519597 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline And that's a bad thing, since if someone picks up a copy of the registry and uses it in their software, glitches get propagated. Witness the infamous (in our circle) 'jw', which resulted from a publication error.

Mark

On 3/5/07, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net> wrote:
John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:

>> Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we are
>> stuck with any mistakes from then on.
>
> Actually not.  What the LSR sends to IANA is authoritative; if IANA
> botches the update, IANA can fix it.

Indeed, this has already happened four times since the Registry went
live in October 2005.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_164441_19796904.1173168519597-- --===============0492782373== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0492782373==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 03:18:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUsi-0005T8-I1; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:18:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUsh-0005Sx-6U for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:18:47 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUsd-0003xC-6T for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:18:47 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:18:42 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.117]) with mapi; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:18:42 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:18:38 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Index: Acdfw5ZcZwT+p617TuSaw6xP2WepvgAABDZg Message-ID: References: <001901c75a16$ac85f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702270036y54918b6cw6d65f406b4f2d60@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> <41a006820703052317o66cfd7eeucf3a806f9b34234a@mail.gmail.com> <41a006820703052346k711bb887r62443947a6857bc3@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <41a006820703052346k711bb887r62443947a6857bc3@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7f3077fcbbd2d4a1504dfa044ebcf773 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1066574304==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1066574304== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE0A0NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE0A0NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm only posting on this thread because I'm absolutely incensed by the hype= wrt ISO 639 that keeps getting repeated that was initiated by a technology= law specialist but is just plain wrong - for a lawyer, embarrassingly so. = The first restatement of it I learned about was from a linguistics professo= r: a person in that profession also should be confirming the accuracy of a = claim before making it their own. Seeing it made me ashamed to call myself = a linguist. The simply type ST_LangCode requires a fixed list of numeric values. The po= int is, this is not the only simple type used for language-identifying meta= data elements. The argument being made is comparable to saying that BCP 47 section 2.2.8 o= n "grandfathered" requires you to use a fixed list values in the IANA regis= try, 32 in number, rather than using ISO standards. The immediate statement= wrt grandfathered is true, but the broader claim wrt to the whole is absol= utely false. ST_LangCode is to OOXML as grandfathered is to BCP 47: legacy cruft. Yes, i= t allows only certain numeric values. But the spec does not require that da= ta type to be used for language identification. It also allows another data= type, ST_Lang, which has as values strings that use ISO 639 and ISO 3166. = This is stated clearly in the immediately-adjacent section, 2.18.51 of part= 4. (All of this pertains specifically to WordprocessingML.) Determine what the spec actually says first. Then state your evaluation. Do= n't do the latter without the former. Btw, I hope that over the years I have demonstrated integrity to people on = this list who have known me for any length of time, and that my affiliation= with any particular corporate entity would not for a moment raise any ques= tion in their minds regarding the sincerity of statements that I make. Peter From: GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 11:47 PM To: Peter Constable Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates= in draft Registry Hoi, In a later post you write: "Instead, section 2.18.52, "ST_LangCode (Two Dig= it Hexadecimal Language Code)" (page 2531) says that you must use a fixed l= ist of numeric language codes rather than the already existing set that pro= vide for interoperability among other standards-compliant products - a not = unimportant factor in a text standard."" This is pretty conclusive I would say.. Where is the standard in there? Thanks, GerardM On 3/6/07, Peter Constable > wrote: The spec may be big, but it's not that opaque. It took me a very short time= to sort out the relevant facts. My working for MS has nothing to do with t= he facts which anyone can readily ascertain: read the spec, not the hype. I= f you want accurate details, you can start with the letter from LSA to ANSI= , which is the only accurate analysis that has been stated publicly that I'= m aware of: http://lsadc.org/info/lsa-ansi-letter.cfm. (The "Background" st= atement has a bit of a misleading tone; read the letter itself.) Peter From: GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 11:18 PM To: Peter Constable Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates= in draft Registry Hoi, Given that "get the facts" is a Microsoft marketing slogan, it would be nic= e to have some facts and not a statement that "it is factually wrong". The = point here is the support of ISO-639 support. The document on OOXML is noto= rious for its size and complexity; it is not something where you want to go= if you can help it. Given that you are working for Microsoft, could you please isolate the rele= vant parts that explicitly and unambiguously provide the facts as to the po= sition of the standards that are of relevance to us ? Thanks, Gerard On 3/6/07, Peter Constable > wrote: Perhaps before anybody goes making proclamations about Microsoft's stance w= rt standards they should understand the facts. I've seen repeated claims ab= out OOXML and non-use of ISO 639. E.g., "Some of the objections over OOXML are based around the fact that it does n= ot use existing ISO standards for some of the bits in it. They list 7 ISO s= tandards that OOXML does not use: 8601 dates and times; 639 names and langu= ages; 8632 computer graphics and metafiles; 10118-3 cryptography as well as= a handful of W3C standards." While I'm not exactly satisfied with how language tagging is handled in the= ECMA standard for OOXML, the above statement simply is factually wrong wrt= ISO 639. I'm particularly astounded that the earliest false claims appear to have co= me from a law firm that reviewed the doc. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:46 AM To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: Gerard Meijssen; LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in = draft Registry Stephane Bortzmeyer schreef: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100, > Stephane Bortzmeyer > wrote > a message of 18 lines which said: > > >> Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RFC >> 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of >> the complications involved. >> > > Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's > comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to > tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way: > > http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html > http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections > http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=3D200701171= 45745854 > > If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up. Hoi, It is also a good moment to reflect.. Microsoft is not interested in Standards. What is the point of considering Microsoft's position at all as a consequence ? Thanks, Gerard _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE0A0NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’m only posting on this thread because I’m absolutely incensed by the hype wrt ISO 639 that keeps getting repeated tha= t was initiated by a technology law specialist but is just plain wrong – fo= r a lawyer, embarrassingly so. The first restatement of it I learned about was = from a linguistics professor: a person in that profession also should be confirm= ing the accuracy of a claim before making it their own. Seeing it made me asham= ed to call myself a linguist.

 

The simply type ST_LangCode requires a fixed list of numeric values. The point is, this is not the only simple type used for language-id= entifying metadata elements.

 

The argument being made is comparable to saying that BCP 47 = section 2.2.8 on “grandfathered” requires you to use a fixed list value= s in the IANA registry, 32 in number, rather than using ISO standards. The immed= iate statement wrt grandfathered is true, but the broader claim wrt to the whole= is absolutely false.

 

ST_LangCode is to OOXML as grandfathered is to BCP 47: legac= y cruft. Yes, it allows only certain numeric values. But the spec does not require that data type to be used for language identification. It also allo= ws another data type, ST_Lang, which has as values strings that use ISO 639 and ISO 31= 66. This is stated clearly in the immediately-adjacent section, 2.18.51 of part= 4. (All of this pertains specifically to WordprocessingML.)<= /p>

 

Determine what the spec actually says first. Then state your evaluation. Don’t do the latter without the former.=

 

 

Btw, I hope that over the years I have demonstrated integrit= y to people on this list who have known me for any length of time, and that my a= ffiliation with any particular corporate entity would not for a moment raise any quest= ion in their minds regarding the sincerity of statements that I make.

 

 

Peter

 

From: GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 11:47 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeh= older" dates in draft Registry

 

Hoi,
In a later post you write: "Instead, section 2.18.52, "ST_LangCod= e (Two Digit Hexadecimal Language Code)" (page 2531) says that you must = use a fixed list of numeric language codes rather than the already existing set that provide for interoperability among other standards-compliant products = - a not unimportant factor in a text standard.""

This is pretty conclusive I would say.. Where is the standard in there?
Thanks,
    GerardM

On 3/6/07, Peter Constable= <petercon@microsoft.com>= ; wrote:

The spec may be big, but = it's not that opaque. It took me a very short time to sort out the relevant fact= s. My working for MS has nothing to do with the facts which anyone can readily ascertain: read the spec, not the hype. If you want accurate details, you c= an start with the letter from LSA to ANSI, which is the only accurate analysis that has been stated publicly that I'm aware of: http:/= /lsadc.org/info/lsa-ansi-letter.cfm. (The "Background" statement has a bit of a misleading tone; read = the letter itself.)

 

 

Peter

 <= /p>

From: GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 11:18 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry

 

Hoi,
Given that "get the facts" is a Microsoft marketing slogan, it wo= uld be nice to have some facts and not a statement that "it is factually wrong". The point here is the support of ISO-639 support. The document= on OOXML is notorious for its size and complexity; it is not something where y= ou want to go if you can help it.

Given that you are working for Microsoft, could you please isolate the rele= vant parts that explicitly and unambiguously provide the facts as to the positio= n of the standards that are of relevance to us ?

Thanks,
     Gerard

On 3/6/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

Perhaps before anybody goes making proclamations about Microsoft's stanc= e wrt standards they should understand the facts. I've seen repeated claims a= bout OOXML and non-use of ISO 639. E.g.,

"Some of the objections over OOXML are based around the fact that it d= oes not use existing ISO standards for some of the bits in it. They list 7 ISO standards that OOXML does not use: 8601 dates and times; 639 names and languages; 8632 computer graphics and metafiles; 10118-3 cryptography as we= ll as a handful of W3C standards."

While I'm not exactly satisfied with how language tagging is handled in the ECMA standard for OOXML, the above statement simply is factually wrong wrt = ISO 639.

I'm particularly astounded that the earliest false claims appear to have co= me from a law firm that reviewed the doc.


Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:46 AM
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer
Cc: Gerard Meijssen; LTRU Working Group
Subject: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry

Stephane Bortzmeyer schreef:
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 11:46:23AM +0100,
>  Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote
>  a message of 18 lines which said:
>
>
>> Do not forget also the other Standards, often better known than RF= C
>> 4646. Many of them just reference "ISO 639" without any knowledge of
>> the complications involved.
>>
>
> Worse, I discovered that the future standard OOXML (Microsoft's
> comptetitor to ODF, Open Document Format) does not even use ISO 639 to=
> tag the language in its documents, but a proprietary way:
>
> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-30.html
> http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections > http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?s= tory=3D20070117145745854
>
> If someone has influence over ISO, it is time to speak up.
Hoi,
It is also a good moment to reflect.. Microsoft is not interested in
Standards. What is the point of considering Microsoft's position at all
as a consequence ?
Thanks,
    Gerard

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
h= ttps://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

 

 

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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0588629684==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 03:37:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOVB2-0000ZL-7J; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:37:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOVAw-0000M4-Bp for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:37:38 -0500 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.186]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUwg-0004Uk-1S for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:22:55 -0500 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l36so2540319nfa for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:22:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=X6A4kBqFMwBE8knyJHIQ0VMiGRrw969QgyT627Pt98tu+3BoajF596PU9K9Yqj72H0Xigo3zQACfgIjrePEsKI9CNb3WHc1CkwWAnB+EAwCjgyJNcrxVyzCjog4UxHuW8ZhGKIRET/qV3kQN6FbbhyAGIJbhZiOHZQ4bXxOTXFA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=q5YGH8hK/X6Oa4Ki5Mcp1ZFrNZcu1aAEcEo0LCI/UvcZkRFaRUpO+NHPnTzLxdst1/rtg0wIbIn2CoNeRAZMpFOO4BEeEBGwsOs79mAU+aNVX1Bwcylm0xMUedW0Z7FupD2tvuhKHZjqz3C7DcYpW41Fob3+udPYI4UwAzw7JFo= Received: by 10.82.135.13 with SMTP id i13mr6491863bud.1173169373226; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.148.11 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:22:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41a006820703060022h5a767058jbe19634f2f8d8408@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:22:53 +0100 From: GerardM To: "Ted Hardie" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20070306040215.GI17952@mercury.ccil.org> <41a006820703052342p6264703l25a4f8eabd491da9@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Cc: Doug Ewell , "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0236017777==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0236017777== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_89280_21148798.1173169373176" ------=_Part_89280_21148798.1173169373176 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi, yes. Thanks, GerardM On 3/6/07, Ted Hardie wrote: > > At 8:42 AM +0100 3/6/07, GerardM wrote: > >Hoi, > >When you have audio of Chinese, it is so ambiguous it is next to > meaningless. The point of Chinese is that it is written the same way for > many languages. Audio Chinese removes the one binding aspect of all these > languages. > >Thanks, > > GerardM > > I do not understand this statement at all. Spoken Chinese is not > ambiguous > for the community of speakers, and tagging may help indicate which > community > of speakers is associated with a resource. Are you saying that in the > absence > of other tags, the range of potential language communities is too varied > for > "Chinese" to be useful? > Ted > > ------=_Part_89280_21148798.1173169373176 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi,
yes.
Thanks,
    GerardM

On 3/6/07, Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com> wrote:
At 8:42 AM +0100 3/6/07, GerardM wrote:
>Hoi,
>When you have audio of Chinese, it is so ambiguous it is next to meaningless. The point of Chinese is that it is written the same way for many languages. Audio Chinese removes the one binding aspect of all these languages.
>Thanks,
>    GerardM

I do not understand this statement at all.  Spoken Chinese is not ambiguous
for the community of speakers, and tagging may help indicate which community
of speakers is associated with a resource.    Are you saying that in the absence
of other tags, the range of potential language communities is too varied for
"Chinese" to be useful?
                                Ted


------=_Part_89280_21148798.1173169373176-- --===============0236017777== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0236017777==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 03:41:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOVEl-0006QY-CE; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:41:35 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOVEk-0006QT-IJ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:41:34 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOVEj-0007af-8x for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:41:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B387226C1F2; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:41:17 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C5E26C173; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:41:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314A458EBC5; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:41:17 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:41:17 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20070306084117.GA32576@nic.fr> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> <41a006820703052317o66cfd7eeucf3a806f9b34234a@mail.gmail.com> <41a006820703052346k711bb887r62443947a6857bc3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Languages tags in OOXML (Was: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:18:38AM -0800, Peter Constable wrote a message of 605 lines which said: > I'm only posting on this thread because I'm absolutely incensed by > the hype wrt ISO 639 We all can see that you are incensed. I inform you that it has consequences on your messages: it is only now that you gave specific and technical replies to the issue at stake. Before that, we got just "You dummy, read the spec!" > ST_LangCode is to OOXML as grandfathered is to BCP 47: legacy > cruft. Yes, it allows only certain numeric values. But the spec does > not require that data type to be used for language identification. OK > It also allows another data type, ST_Lang, which has as values > strings that use ISO 639 and ISO 3166. By curiosity, why not BCP 47? Some standards just refer to ISO 639 because they don't know BCP 47 or don't like the IETF. But they just use plain ISO 639. If OOXML uses a combination of two ISO standards, why designing a new combination instead of existing BCP 47? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 03:54:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOVRG-0002WJ-NX; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:54:30 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOVRF-0002WD-GS for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:54:29 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOVRE-0001M0-6Y for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:54:29 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFAC526C297; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:54:27 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ABEC26C295; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:54:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF4B58EBC5; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:54:17 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:54:17 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: John Cowan Message-ID: <20070306085417.GA26022@nic.fr> References: <20070306065152.GA26494@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070306065152.GA26494@mercury.ccil.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposal: URIs for language tags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 01:51:52AM -0500, John Cowan wrote a message of 37 lines which said: > I think something of the form > > http://www.iana.org/assignments/XXXX?en-us > > would be suitable. While I am myself quite sympathetic to the idea of URL (see http://norman.walsh.name/2006/07/25/namesAndAddresses), I know that many people will ask "why not URN?". So, I ask for them: why not RFC 2648 or similar? urn:ietf:langtag:fr-CI? Or a new scheme like in RFC 4501? langtag:fr-CI? A possible concern is that people and programs will try to use the URI as a locator, if it is an URL and that IANA servers may not like it. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 04:17:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOVnW-0002Rt-Mw; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:17:30 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOVnV-0002Rg-D4 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:17:29 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.172]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOUxf-0004nU-3h for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:23:56 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so99872ugd for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:23:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=RLaoLvurEZjsEfhxUffMgolRjJNgpxxdFX0weV3SagTE+e7WEl7/ShXSnFvaKSt3/tA23tJfPemsk2x1dAo/OC7nyOmp/uERUdMa4Oli4mKdS39v4m3hBdJzOFta9qwAqGheg3+jkjoAfc2JfrWSsfWzZTnusS6sNj82fpDNOfc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Bht05tDwEYOBIsybK/bXc5XsyZiqvHrBNWBB7NAIBstdy+DcNWkZ5xNJqJibC4/mLr5+53uz28qCXZeJiLVCZaLobecnsy6UL1qSwp/mH9zKekhNMhUZcVAT7AHr9nOPfjpgXS4o4ckIovKJaPu0t1hX2/ycK3Ld1yf6rfgbANs= Received: by 10.114.159.1 with SMTP id h1mr1632338wae.1173169432889; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:23:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:23:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703060023r16d8d7fx879536e669a2e36d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:23:52 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001901c75a16$ac85f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> <41a006820703052317o66cfd7eeucf3a806f9b34234a@mail.gmail.com> <41a006820703052346k711bb887r62443947a6857bc3@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1e0f065c5e1256ec X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1027166064==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1027166064== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_164538_17973914.1173169432846" ------=_Part_164538_17973914.1173169432846 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/6/07, Peter Constable wrote: > > Btw, I hope that over the years I have demonstrated integrity to people on > this list who have known me for any length of time, and that my affiliation > with any particular corporate entity would not for a moment raise any > question in their minds regarding the sincerity of statements that I make. > Absolutely no question in my mind! Mark ------=_Part_164538_17973914.1173169432846 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
On 3/6/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
Btw, I hope that over the years I have demonstrated integrity to people on this list who have known me for any length of time, and that my affiliation with any particular corporate entity would not for a moment raise any question in their minds regarding the sincerity of statements that I make.

Absolutely no question in my mind!

Mark

------=_Part_164538_17973914.1173169432846-- --===============1027166064== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1027166064==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 04:34:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOW3y-000523-Cr; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:34:30 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOW3x-00051y-6M for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:34:29 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOW3v-0007di-Ss for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:34:29 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:34:27 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.186]) with mapi; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:34:27 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:34:21 -0800 Thread-Topic: Languages tags in OOXML (Was: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Index: Acdfy0Hqtrt2V6hzQLCGRlglnz8k1AAAzyfw Message-ID: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> <41a006820703052317o66cfd7eeucf3a806f9b34234a@mail.gmail.com> <41a006820703052346k711bb887r62443947a6857bc3@mail.gmail.com> <20070306084117.GA32576@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20070306084117.GA32576@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Subject: [Ltru] RE: Languages tags in OOXML (Was: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] > We all can see that you are incensed. I inform you that it has > consequences on your messages: it is only now that you gave specific > and technical replies to the issue at stake. Before that, we got just > "You dummy, read the spec!" On the contrary, it was a few days ago, at the start of the original thread= , that a pointer was provided to the LSA page with their letter to ANSI, wh= ich gives an accurate statement of the facts. If people had actually read t= he content referenced at the initiation of the discussion rather than going= off to find other sources and taking those as somehow more reliable (which= on face value do not suggest anywhere near the level of reliability of tha= t in LSA's letter, given the amount of specific details cited), then I expe= ct there likely wouldn't have been any need to explain anything. But frankly, I don't see what's wrong with expecting people to confirm what= 's in the spec directly before they believe what someone posts on a blog. T= he ability to self-publish does not in any way infer reliability. And espec= ially when the topic is a controversial spec and in particular a claim rela= ted to a portion of the spec that this list would find of particular concer= n, if true, then it behooves people here to confirm what is actually stated= before commenting on it. Besides, the way that ISO process works is that b= odies need to provide specific, actionable comments, which can only be prep= ared if you have actually read the spec. So, if people want to do anything = actually constructive about the matter with ISO rather than just blowing ho= t air, they need to read the spec. If anyone felt I implied "dummy" of them, I apologize. >> It also allows another data type, ST_Lang, which has as values >> strings that use ISO 639 and ISO 3166. > > By curiosity, why not BCP 47? Please see the LSA page that started this discussion: that question has alr= eady been asked. > Some standards just refer to ISO 639 > because they don't know BCP 47 or don't like the IETF. But they just > use plain ISO 639. If OOXML uses a combination of two ISO standards, > why designing a new combination instead of existing BCP 47? I completely agree with the critique that BCP 47 should be referenced. They= don't just use plain ISO 639; they use something roughly comparable to RFC= 1766 (the original BCP 47). They do not design a new combination; it's a c= ombination that's been around for years. My guess is that whoever wrote tha= t part of the spec simply didn't know about BCP 47. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 04:34:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOW4J-0005CP-LD; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:34:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOW4H-0005CE-U8 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:34:49 -0500 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOW4F-0007fp-FM for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:34:49 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:34:43 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.72]) with mapi; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:34:43 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:34:40 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Thread-Index: AcdfyMgYFrWEY6OJSKyReIEuI+29owACd66g Message-ID: References: <001901c75a16$ac85f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> <41a006820703052317o66cfd7eeucf3a806f9b34234a@mail.gmail.com> <41a006820703052346k711bb887r62443947a6857bc3@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20703060023r16d8d7fx879536e669a2e36d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703060023r16d8d7fx879536e669a2e36d@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 86f85b2f88b0d50615aed44a7f9e33c7 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0372066249==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0372066249== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE0C8NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE0C8NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks. From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On B= ehalf Of Mark Davis Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:24 AM To: Peter Constable Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates= in draft Registry On 3/6/07, Peter Constable > wrote: Btw, I hope that over the years I have demonstrated integrity to people on = this list who have known me for any length of time, and that my affiliation= with any particular corporate entity would not for a moment raise any ques= tion in their minds regarding the sincerity of statements that I make. Absolutely no question in my mind! Mark --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE0C8NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks.

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Beha= lf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:24 AM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry

 

 

On 3/6/07, Peter Constable= <petercon@microsoft.com>= ; wrote:

Btw, I = hope that over the years I have demonstrated integrity to people on this list wh= o have known me for any length of time, and that my affiliation with any particular corporate entity would not for a moment raise any question in th= eir minds regarding the sincerity of statements that I make.<= /p>


Absolutely no question in my mind!

Mark

 

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70DCE0C8NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============0372066249== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0372066249==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 09:15:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOaS0-0006Rf-7b; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:15:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOaPG-0005Bx-T0 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:12:46 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOaPF-0000iH-M6 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:12:46 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOaPD-00068e-9f; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:12:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:12:43 -0500 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Marketing of the standard (Was: "Placeholder" dates in draft Registry Message-ID: <20070306141243.GA30618@mercury.ccil.org> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070227183715.09328790@localhost> <41a006820702270228o7974fdc5p5ef2e649ee7d76cd@mail.gmail.com> <20070227104623.GA24980@nic.fr> <20070304094910.GA13301@nic.fr> <45EC1F21.9000008@gmail.com> <41a006820703052317o66cfd7eeucf3a806f9b34234a@mail.gmail.com> <41a006820703052346k711bb887r62443947a6857bc3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > Btw, I hope that over the years I have demonstrated integrity to > people on this list who have known me for any length of time, and that > my affiliation with any particular corporate entity would not for a > moment raise any question in their minds regarding the sincerity of > statements that I make. It would not. Not for a moment. -- The Imperials are decadent, 300 pound John Cowan free-range chickens (except they have http://www.ccil.org/~cowan teeth, arms instead of wings, and dinosaurlike tails). --Elyse Grasso _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 10:02:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HObBD-0001xd-Uw; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:02:19 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HObBC-0001xY-SB for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:02:18 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HObBB-0003Ae-JO for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:02:18 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070306150214.JBQG2272.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:02:14 +0000 Message-ID: <00ac01c76000$6d35fe30$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:02:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposals for changes to latest draft X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: >>>> Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we >>>> are stuck with any mistakes from then on. >>> >>> Actually not. What the LSR sends to IANA is authoritative; if IANA >>> botches the update, IANA can fix it. >> >> Indeed, this has already happened four times since the Registry went >> live in October 2005. > > And that's a bad thing, since if someone picks up a copy of the > registry and uses it in their software, glitches get propagated. > Witness the infamous (in our circle) 'jw', which resulted from a > publication error. It's definitely a bad thing. But it's not impossible to correct, which is what you said at the top of this thread. It's not likely that the current set of people -- OK, I -- will let an error in the Registry go undetected for long. But humans can miss things, and one day different people will be doing this anyway. I'm not necessarily opposed to (or in favor of) posting and submitting a complete Registry, but I did need to clear up that one misstatement: mistakes in the Registry can be corrected. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 10:57:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOc2g-0008G3-Lj; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:57:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOc2f-0008Fv-Uh for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:57:33 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOc2c-0001dH-9F for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:57:33 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HOc2V-0004Do-BH for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:57:23 +0100 Received: from d255187.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.255.187]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:57:23 +0100 Received: from nobody by d255187.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:57:23 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:54:54 +0100 Organization: Lines: 45 Message-ID: <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d255187.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > There are few encompassed languages that were already primary language > subtags. They are not affected by this, as Doug quite rightly doesn't > touch them as per the first paragraph above. These are listed below. = > ak-tw Iso639_1Individual Living Twi > no-nb Iso639_1Individual Living Norwegian Bokm=C3=A5l > no-nn Iso639_1Individual Living Norwegian Nynorsk > sh-bs Iso639_1Individual Living Bosnian > sh-hr Iso639_1Individual Living Croatian > sh-sr Iso639_1Individual Living Serbian > ak-fat Iso639_2Individual Living Fanti In other words we already have sh (deprecated), bs, hr, and sr as languages in the 4646 registry, and 4645bis won't change this. > However, that does introduce an inconsistency in the handling of these > languages vs others like > ... > zh-cjy Iso639_3Individual Living Jinyu Chinese > zh-cmn Iso639_3Individual Living Mandarin Chinese > zh-cpx Iso639_3Individual Living Pu-Xian Chinese > zh-czh Iso639_3Individual Living Huizhou Chinese > zh-czo Iso639_3Individual Living Min Zhong Chinese zh is a language in the 4646 registry, and 4645bis won't change this. There are no 639-2 languages cjy, cmn, cpx, czh, and czo in the 4645 registry, these are new additions in 4645bis, registered as extlangs. > I don't know that it is a particularly big deal, but it was a bit of > a surprise to me that the first group existed, and just thought I'd > bring it to the group's attention. Thanks, looking at it I see no problem with the first group, but it would be weird if cjy (etc.) are "upgraded" to 639-2 languages later: IIRC we can't move an extlang to a language later. I'm sure that we already discussed this, but I forgot the fine print, is there some kind of guarantee that cjy (etc.) will be never added to ISO 639-2 ? Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 11:08:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcDJ-0000BG-UN; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:08:33 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcDJ-0000B8-2q for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:08:33 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.173]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcDE-0004Sw-Mg for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:08:32 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id k3so230255ugf for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 08:08:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Nn5Vs943nOgyZu5vqBHtYIKmd411uX+U8zClrqJ/7mbOQxmDviU9gXFRkKBsmKYnYWFT2734jRxtf+nVI9Ld8h9CmkXejrv3513wLsdzoQogaKzbMqe31GUISXx/4RzHyeGxRdaW076xUpTBnJ7K6rte4bJgYKWFbFnY+5mkrcM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UWDpc+wKapOoWMnGkPPMhn5WeMxwaH7lX8sZ7VbYpqWdjjNhWW9tKIpjqAICGVogh1cncVq6bf+1/ySBIpPY5mPXRSDqY5367+esLq+CRROgC+xqygbFsxHoByc4hmPmi+aI3zbDcSbvR6pxCnzhPKsGVlE9I2PSPxw46OMpxcI= Received: by 10.66.239.18 with SMTP id m18mr1825600ugh.1173197303617; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 08:08:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.0.2? ( [62.195.155.247]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id x33sm649164ugc.2007.03.06.08.08.23; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 08:08:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <45ED91D1.5020303@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:07:45 +0100 From: Gerard Meijssen User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann schreef: > Mark Davis wrote: > > >> There are few encompassed languages that were already primary language >> subtags. They are not affected by this, as Doug quite rightly doesn't >> touch them as per the first paragraph above. These are listed below. >> > > >> ak-tw Iso639_1Individual Living Twi >> no-nb Iso639_1Individual Living Norwegian Bokmål >> no-nn Iso639_1Individual Living Norwegian Nynorsk >> sh-bs Iso639_1Individual Living Bosnian >> sh-hr Iso639_1Individual Living Croatian >> sh-sr Iso639_1Individual Living Serbian >> ak-fat Iso639_2Individual Living Fanti >> > > In other words we already have sh (deprecated), bs, hr, and sr as > languages in the 4646 registry, and 4645bis won't change this. > > >> However, that does introduce an inconsistency in the handling of these >> languages vs others like >> ... >> zh-cjy Iso639_3Individual Living Jinyu Chinese >> zh-cmn Iso639_3Individual Living Mandarin Chinese >> zh-cpx Iso639_3Individual Living Pu-Xian Chinese >> zh-czh Iso639_3Individual Living Huizhou Chinese >> zh-czo Iso639_3Individual Living Min Zhong Chinese >> > > zh is a language in the 4646 registry, and 4645bis won't change this. > > There are no 639-2 languages cjy, cmn, cpx, czh, and czo in the 4645 > registry, these are new additions in 4645bis, registered as extlangs. > > >> I don't know that it is a particularly big deal, but it was a bit of >> a surprise to me that the first group existed, and just thought I'd >> bring it to the group's attention. >> > > Thanks, looking at it I see no problem with the first group, but it > would be weird if cjy (etc.) are "upgraded" to 639-2 languages later: > > IIRC we can't move an extlang to a language later. I'm sure that we > already discussed this, but I forgot the fine print, is there some > kind of guarantee that cjy (etc.) will be never added to ISO 639-2 ? > > Frank Hoi, I hope there is no such guarantee because in the case of Chinese, it is in essence a written language only. I would really welcome the cjy (etc.) languages to be promoted to this "higher" level. Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 11:27:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcVk-0006zc-Fw; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:27:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcVe-0006z1-FZ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:27:30 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcVd-0007E3-84 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:27:30 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOcVZ-0006p8-6X; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:27:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:27:25 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Message-ID: <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > Movies are an obvious case of constrastive usage. While you might find it > "most naturally expressed in two distinct metadata properties", we don't. What 4646-compliant tag expresses the case "Spoken language in American English with subtitles in French, German, or Japanese"? You *have* to have separate entries for the spoken language of a film and the language of subtitling. > [W]hat is so difficult about realizing that some people may have a > legitimate need to distinguish written from non-written, say, English > with language tags? *Saying* "there's a need" is not a magic formula. We need to know what the need actually is. -- One Word to write them all, John Cowan One Access to find them, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan One Excel to count them all, And thus to Windows bind them. --Mike Champion _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 11:29:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcXH-0007gC-4D; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:29:11 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcXF-0007g7-W8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:29:09 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcXE-0007SC-Og for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:29:09 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOcXE-0006t6-RQ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:29:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:29:08 -0500 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes Message-ID: <20070306162908.GC30618@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > IIRC we can't move an extlang to a language later. I'm sure that we > already discussed this, but I forgot the fine print, is there some > kind of guarantee that cjy (etc.) will be never added to ISO 639-2 ? There is no such guarantee, but I'd think it would be improbable. The whole point of a macrolanguage in most (not all) cases is that there is a single set of writing conventions (639-2 is bibliographic in origin, remember) that covers several different 639-3 languages. -- One Word to write them all, John Cowan One Access to find them, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan One Excel to count them all, And thus to Windows bind them. --Mike Champion _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 11:31:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcZa-00088w-FR; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:31:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcZY-00088r-Km for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:31:32 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcZT-0007i2-Av for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:31:32 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOcZT-00075T-IW for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:31:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:31:27 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20070306163127.GD30618@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Subject: [Ltru] [everson@evertype.com: The Language Subtag Reviewer] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The following message is being forwarded from ietf-languages@iana.org as a public service. ----- Forwarded message from Michael Everson ----- Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:17:19 +0100 To: IETF Languages Discussion From: Michael Everson Cc: Subject: The Language Subtag Reviewer It has come to my attention that some people think I ought to be a member of the LTRU discussion list. I do not have time for another high-volume e-mail list. It is difficult enough to deal with all the off-topic discussion on the IEFTLANG list. It certainly makes it hard to keep track of whether there is consensus on actual applications for subtags. It has also come to my attention that the description of Language Subtag Reviewer's role and tasks is being discussed. In my opinion, the LSR should be a team, including one person who knows about languages and linguistics, one person who deals with the formatting and protocol matters, and one person to own and moderate the discussion list. We already have this in practice, namely the team of myself, Doug Ewell, and Harald Alvestrand. That team works well as far as I can see. This message can be conveyed to the LTRU list if someone thinks it appropriate. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ----- End forwarded message ----- -- But you, Wormtongue, you have done what you could for your true master. Some reward you have earned at least. Yet Saruman is apt to overlook his bargains. I should advise you to go quickly and remind him, lest he forget your faithful service. --Gandalf John Cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 11:33:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcbP-0000Nc-EJ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:33:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcbO-0000JQ-3z for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:33:26 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcbM-0007vD-Q8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:33:26 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcbD-0001lu-Pn for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:33:15 +0100 Received: from d255187.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.255.187]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:33:15 +0100 Received: from nobody by d255187.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:33:15 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:30:39 +0100 Organization: Lines: 27 Message-ID: <45ED972E.3BED@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <45ECF1CD.5070500@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d255187.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: non-written content X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > IMO, conformance should be about proper construction and interpretation of > tags, not about guaranteeing that the choice of tag applied to content is > always the most appropriate. +1 IIRC we already have a SHOULD NOT. Violating a SHOULD NOT needs a good excuse, and stupidity of the tagger isn't a good excuse. But there might be odd cases where using a script subtag with audio content makes sense: A German phrase is "Fraktur reden", so maybe somebody tries de-Latf. IMO still stupid, but nothing serious should break (as it is required for a MUST NOT). There are script subtags like Sgnw, Visp, Zxxx, Zyyy, and Zzzz, and maybe there could be situations (= good excuses) where using these subtags with audio content is not plain nonsense. And if there's no good excuse at all the SHOULD NOT has almost the same effect as a MUST NOT. The only remaining difference would be that an implementation isn't allowed to crash if it finds a stupid script, with a MUST NOT it could crash. Who needs this ? Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 12:02:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOd30-0004ok-3i; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:01:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOd2z-0004od-F1 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:01:57 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOd2x-0004An-Mr for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:01:57 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HOd2o-00076F-L8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:01:46 +0100 Received: from d255187.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.255.187]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:01:46 +0100 Received: from nobody by d255187.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:01:46 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:58:08 +0100 Organization: Lines: 30 Message-ID: <45ED9DA0.1B90@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45ED91D1.5020303@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d255187.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> IIRC we can't move an extlang to a language later. I'm sure that we >> already discussed this, but I forgot the fine print, is there some >> kind of guarantee that cjy (etc.) will be never added to ISO 639-2 ? > I hope there is no such guarantee because in the case of Chinese, it > is in essence a written language only. I would really welcome the cjy > (etc.) languages to be promoted to this "higher" level. Okay, then we have to consider this possibility for the 4646bis rules. John confirmed in <20070306162908.GC30618@mercury.ccil.org>: | There is no such guarantee, but I'd think it would be improbable. | The whole point of a macrolanguage in most (not all) cases is that | there is a single set of writing conventions (639-2 is bibliographic | in origin, remember) that covers several different 639-3 languages. Let's assume that cjy will be added to 639-2 later. 4646bis could then decree "too late, you lose". It could also play along, adding a new language cjy, and deprecating the extlang cjy. John said that's improbable, therefore I'd prefer the second solution, it's more flexible. And I like to keep the "all ISO 639-2 languages are also 3066, 4646, and 4646bis languages" rule (of course excluding the known cases where 639-1 codes are used instead of 639-2 codes). Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 12:22:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOdMX-0002eT-7P; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:22:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOdMW-0002c3-Hm for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:22:08 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOdMU-0007qm-Go for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:22:08 -0500 Received: from [10.72.66.77] (snvvpn-10-72-66-c77.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.66.77]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l26HM30a018163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:22:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CxmVk3CVBqQc5GGeR4wd2Q9lMvQKQPsJ2ERRndmu9d+bmULnR6aaHL7QrHaaNyfq Message-ID: <45EDA33B.6000606@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:22:03 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45ED91D1.5020303@gmail.com> <45ED9DA0.1B90@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <45ED9DA0.1B90@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org We already have rules dealing with this in the 4646 era. I agree with Gerard that the (spoken) range of Sinitic languages is wide and generally not mutually intelligible. But it is not maltreating these languages to allow them to share a 'zh' prefix and certainly no one should claim that the 'zh' subtag has no utility whatsoever. It isn't a value judgment on Chinese languages and dialects that they need to use extended language subtags. It is recognition of the fact that 'zh' is useful in identifying content and that it has been a consistent practice for some time. Permitting (i.e. forcing) users to choose between "cjy-CN" and "zh-cjy-CN" ignores the prefix-matching used in RFC 4647. I think it would create serious problems. > John said that's improbable, therefore I'd prefer the second solution, > it's more flexible. And I like to keep the "all ISO 639-2 languages > are also 3066, 4646, and 4646bis languages" rule (of course excluding > the known cases where 639-1 codes are used instead of 639-2 codes). If I understand ISO 639's future direction correctly, in the future ISO 639-2 will be a profile of ISO 639-3. A better description of the language subtags would be: all ISO 639-3 codes (which includes all of the ISO 639-2 codes) are language subtags, excepting codes which have an ISO 639-1 code and historical accidents (in which a macrolanguage is later "divided up"). The former use the alpha2 and the later are encoded using an extlang. With luck and care, we won't make many extlangs after the initial set of them. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 14:43:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfZQ-0006RV-I2; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:43:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfZP-0006QA-A5 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:43:35 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfZJ-0007JZ-Uv for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:43:35 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.114) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:43:29 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.114]) with mapi; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:43:29 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:43:27 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes Thread-Index: AcdgDJgC/TfEkz/mSzuB53T19T7r/AAGrrwg Message-ID: References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070306162908.GC30618@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070306162908.GC30618@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I would not say there's any guarantee that these will never be added to 639= -2, nor would I go as far to predict improbability in the general case. But I don't see why that's an issue. IMO, the difference between inclusion = in 639-2 vs. 639-3 only should be irrelevant for us. Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:29 AM > To: Frank Ellermann > Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes > > Frank Ellermann scripsit: > > > IIRC we can't move an extlang to a language later. I'm sure that we > > already discussed this, but I forgot the fine print, is there some > > kind of guarantee that cjy (etc.) will be never added to ISO 639-2 ? > > There is no such guarantee, but I'd think it would be improbable. > The whole point of a macrolanguage in most (not all) cases is that > there is a single set of writing conventions (639-2 is bibliographic > in origin, remember) that covers several different 639-3 languages. > > -- > One Word to write them all, John Cowan > One Access to find them, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > One Excel to count them all, > And thus to Windows bind them. --Mike Champion > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 14:45:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfbA-0001yR-3q; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:45:24 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfb8-0001rk-LW for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:45:22 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfb7-0007j2-Dl for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:45:22 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:45:20 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.185]) with mapi; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:45:20 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:45:19 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes Thread-Index: AcdgCbS3aOgXYh+jRFeTA3Iyrh0DIQAHgyrg Message-ID: References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45ED91D1.5020303@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45ED91D1.5020303@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] > I hope there is no such guarantee because in the case of Chinese, it is > in essence a written language only. I would really welcome the cjy > (etc.) languages to be promoted to this "higher" level. The quotation marks for '"higher"' are quite appropriate. I don't think we = should characterize differences between the language repertoires for 639-1,= -2 and -3 in terms of "higher" / "lower". Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 14:50:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfgI-0006nr-O8; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:50:42 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfgG-0006aR-SK for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:50:40 -0500 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.184]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfgF-0008V1-G1 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:50:40 -0500 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l36so2762042nfa for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:50:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=PwrKRw5XzUR9XiZCk7htv/qjWCkiBS5Brz/yXewz4SVPoeqgif9ATZ2ZabfLfq87hJjpV1nYz3G92IO2XFwCf0TUhkZ1JCkKOOp5J5uA/PAARja5bme6ea3GkBKs3rdSKwZtmsW8CRVyQ92CsxnJgNHT7MabUVohlVTTWsrdgCY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=N2BJ0+ZWj56uMPRQ7MjiqE1T30xpWs6Ip6+MdzomXePN2HJzPghKyvQgckZP6TAKkxZqc0fTAs9c6g0ybEdEjT+xEAUZ7FqS4RddWiE93OYkutpHIgoJRrcxV4E151h3V9QYeAPylaX+77H1u1jFjzaQhdMSb0fr1CTtKu+97qI= Received: by 10.82.152.16 with SMTP id z16mr7696192bud.1173210638214; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.148.11 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:50:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41a006820703061150v3b3c912asf6420f7d369dc37@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:50:38 +0100 From: GerardM To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45ED91D1.5020303@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1442547261==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1442547261== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_98384_22158143.1173210638166" ------=_Part_98384_22158143.1173210638166 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi, Effectively an ISO-639-2 recognition for these "spoken" languages, that are characterised as Chinese, would make it more problematic to maintain that the notation of zh-xxx is justifiable. Therefore it has the effect as being of a "higher" value. Thanks, GerardM On 3/6/07, Peter Constable wrote: > > > From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] > > > I hope there is no such guarantee because in the case of Chinese, it is > > in essence a written language only. I would really welcome the cjy > > (etc.) languages to be promoted to this "higher" level. > > The quotation marks for '"higher"' are quite appropriate. I don't think we > should characterize differences between the language repertoires for 639-1, > -2 and -3 in terms of "higher" / "lower". > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_98384_22158143.1173210638166 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi,
Effectively an ISO-639-2 recognition for these "spoken" languages, that are characterised as Chinese, would make it more problematic to maintain that the notation of zh-xxx is justifiable. Therefore it has the effect as being of a "higher" value.
Thanks,
    GerardM

On 3/6/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
> From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]

> I hope there is no such guarantee because in the case of Chinese, it is
> in essence a written language only.  I would really welcome the  cjy
> (etc.) languages to be promoted to this "higher" level.

The quotation marks for '"higher"' are quite appropriate. I don't think we should characterize differences between the language repertoires for 639-1, -2 and -3 in terms of "higher" / "lower".


Peter

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------=_Part_98384_22158143.1173210638166-- --===============1442547261== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1442547261==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 15:25:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgDS-0007Z6-96; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:24:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgDG-0007EP-D9 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:24:46 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgBn-00068n-41 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:23:17 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgBU-0001qL-DR for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:22:56 +0100 Received: from d255187.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.255.187]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:22:56 +0100 Received: from nobody by d255187.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:22:56 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:22:05 +0100 Organization: Lines: 20 Message-ID: <45EDCD6D.4A16@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45ED91D1.5020303@gmail.com> <45ED9DA0.1B90@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45EDA33B.6000606@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d255187.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Permitting (i.e. forcing) users to choose between "cjy-CN" and > "zh-cjy-CN" ignores the prefix-matching used in RFC 4647. If the 4645bis extlang cjy is deprecated in favour of a future language subtag cjy, applications aware of this could replace zh-cjy by cjy on the fly before trying to match tags. > I think it would create serious problems. It's not worse than other cases of deprecated tags or subtags. OTOH I think it would be a serious problem if some 639-2 codes aren't permitted without a prefix in 4646bis tags: Folks will go for the shortest tag they can get away with and beyond. My crystal ball says. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 15:25:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgDi-0000Br-4F; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:25:14 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgDb-0008Bt-Tf for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:25:07 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgAB-0005v3-Dn for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:21:36 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOgAB-0006EZ-JP; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:21:35 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:21:35 -0500 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes Message-ID: <20070306202135.GH30618@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070306162908.GC30618@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > But I don't see why that's an issue. IMO, the difference between > inclusion in 639-2 vs. 639-3 only should be irrelevant for us. Mostly it is. But suppose there is a 639-3 only language code element 'xxx' which is encompassed by 'yyy'. At present we will use the tag 'yyy-xxx'. Now suppose 'xxx' is added to 639-2. Do we deprecate "yyy-xxx" in favor of "xxx", or do we ignore the addition of "xxx"? This issue *must* be decided for 4646bis. I favor the latter course. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless. For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 06 15:55:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgh9-0003ua-Pu; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:55:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgcz-0006JF-Os for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:51:21 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.172]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgcx-0002x5-Fa for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:51:21 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id k3so310885ugf for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:50:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=AvqSFWOyruEyI+vMuk8Xe8BiZSN7+UAysS8KE/+c2Rzyh5fFqfCbMqxZJLNmwxDRIPjMsEX/c8ScO1kXowehbfUvu4TzHtqLh0f1KlZdB6lCJ/fAApNzUVNM/aJi4/NYOErtIK1LBlNsgF/sBa0/YOMvuy0GUrj0MvVan8NKoAw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=meVANH1BpxqteCjkuzhhNgJjja6r3DyUZhX1vIvV64lprJxwv7YZnYvrZeS5PUnex2gJpd5PVIszHygOMpErgWknh9q06Ww5MJPUdGHyhftblrRhn283Z5l3ayY/A4BkuWP9+69miYEvQD6lbUzjzAhyeVyISTgHUlPmG7awe/Y= Received: by 10.114.156.1 with SMTP id d1mr1867667wae.1173214228236; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:50:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703061250y21a15163w70dddfc8c4108e45@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:50:28 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: GerardM Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes In-Reply-To: <41a006820703061150v3b3c912asf6420f7d369dc37@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45ED91D1.5020303@gmail.com> <41a006820703061150v3b3c912asf6420f7d369dc37@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c46af3465957c7ed X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1593580133==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1593580133== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_180198_22659531.1173214228188" ------=_Part_180198_22659531.1173214228188 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The only reason we have for using the structure "zh-min" instead of "min" is so that matching with fallback works without recourse to other information. That is, 1. if we used "zh-min", and that isn't found, then normal fallback will give us "zh". 2. if we used "min", and that isn't found, then normal fallback would not know to give us "zh". 1. That level of fallback could, however, be done by accessing the macrolanguage information in ISO 639-3. This is not a judgment about "higher" or "lower" at all. One can discuss the technical merits of approach #1 vs #2, but as technical merits. Mark On 3/6/07, GerardM wrote: > > Hoi, > Effectively an ISO-639-2 recognition for these "spoken" languages, that > are characterised as Chinese, would make it more problematic to maintain > that the notation of zh-xxx is justifiable. Therefore it has the effect as > being of a "higher" value. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 3/6/07, Peter Constable wrote: > > > > > From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] > > > > > I hope there is no such guarantee because in the case of Chinese, it > > is > > > in essence a written language only. I would really welcome the cjy > > > (etc.) languages to be promoted to this "higher" level. > > > > The quotation marks for '"higher"' are quite appropriate. I don't think > > we should characterize differences between the language repertoires for > > 639-1, -2 and -3 in terms of "higher" / "lower". > > > > > > Peter > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > -- Mark ------=_Part_180198_22659531.1173214228188 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The only reason we have for using the structure "zh-min" instead of "min" is so that matching with fallback works without recourse to other information. That is,
  1. if we used "zh-min", and that isn't found, then normal fallback will give us "zh".
  2. if we used "min", and that isn't found, then normal fallback would not know to give us "zh".
    1. That level of fallback could, however, be done by accessing the macrolanguage information in ISO 639-3.
This is not a judgment about "higher" or "lower" at all. One can discuss the technical merits of approach #1 vs #2, but as technical merits.

Mark

On 3/6/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi,
Effectively an ISO-639-2 recognition for these "spoken" languages, that are characterised as Chinese, would make it more problematic to maintain that the notation of zh-xxx is justifiable. Therefore it has the effect as being of a "higher" value.
Thanks,
    GerardM


On 3/6/07, Peter Constable < petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
> From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]

> I hope there is no such guarantee because in the case of Chinese, it is
> in essence a written language only.  I would really welcome the  cjy
> (etc.) languages to be promoted to this "higher" level.

The quotation marks for '"higher"' are quite appropriate. I don't think we should characterize differences between the language repertoires for 639-1, -2 and -3 in terms of "higher" / "lower".


Peter

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark ------=_Part_180198_22659531.1173214228188-- --===============1593580133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1593580133==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 04:04:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOs4f-0006eF-CJ; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:04:41 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOjEf-00089O-6C for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:38:25 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.175]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgs6-0003LW-UG for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:07:55 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so310035ugd for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:06:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=lcbogP//NTTWVy4M4dWJPrk1pbXbs3zbrDvXnVVZT8ezc+wcFwKPuLZxTum27KDcv/0+mt0WoO2IiLuRrbkJLwE7VsylTIbkxOqV3OrB6IepbrjA0X77fQKQnt0XJMHVvPZg5kWS7EPy/cI9k6A8RUhWKlhhpZCaXQYgZt4Eiws= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=HE+rEqt76FlSgmJYehPeBCK0eOZWyuABhr803F63tHl0Ti7i3WfJg00q3XiZRDcikJZES06SwENJD8R4dE6wF+d1G6Xe+YjS/EHflxtoDNSTpiKI1kTkWaSqDB6YM7YayOaOJ7dpr4EOxEhUQmv6Sybxitqd0SI0DvS9VXRpzn4= Received: by 10.114.137.2 with SMTP id k2mr1910864wad.1173215209680; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:06:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703061306y6c80beaai4cfdd305a5ac1b9e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:06:49 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Proposals for changes to latest draft In-Reply-To: <00ac01c76000$6d35fe30$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00ac01c76000$6d35fe30$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3c6f3e14eeac3781 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0118100977==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0118100977== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_180726_11747651.1173215209177" ------=_Part_180726_11747651.1173215209177 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline As I said, I'm not wedded to this, so if you think the process is under control, and does not need any changes, I'll drop my proposal. Mark On 3/6/07, Doug Ewell wrote: > > Mark Davis wrote: > > >>>> Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we > >>>> are stuck with any mistakes from then on. > >>> > >>> Actually not. What the LSR sends to IANA is authoritative; if IANA > >>> botches the update, IANA can fix it. > >> > >> Indeed, this has already happened four times since the Registry went > >> live in October 2005. > > > > And that's a bad thing, since if someone picks up a copy of the > > registry and uses it in their software, glitches get propagated. > > Witness the infamous (in our circle) 'jw', which resulted from a > > publication error. > > It's definitely a bad thing. But it's not impossible to correct, which > is what you said at the top of this thread. > > It's not likely that the current set of people -- OK, I -- will let an > error in the Registry go undetected for long. But humans can miss > things, and one day different people will be doing this anyway. I'm not > necessarily opposed to (or in favor of) posting and submitting a > complete Registry, but I did need to clear up that one misstatement: > mistakes in the Registry can be corrected. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_180726_11747651.1173215209177 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline As I said, I'm not wedded to this, so if you think the process is under control, and does not need any changes, I'll drop my proposal.

Mark

On 3/6/07, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net> wrote:
Mark Davis <mark dot davis at icu dash project dot org> wrote:

>>>> Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we
>>>> are stuck with any mistakes from then on.
>>>
>>> Actually not.  What the LSR sends to IANA is authoritative; if IANA
>>> botches the update, IANA can fix it.
>>
>> Indeed, this has already happened four times since the Registry went
>> live in October 2005.
>
> And that's a bad thing, since if someone picks up a copy of the
> registry and uses it in their software, glitches get propagated.
> Witness the infamous (in our circle) 'jw', which resulted from a
> publication error.

It's definitely a bad thing.  But it's not impossible to correct, which
is what you said at the top of this thread.

It's not likely that the current set of people -- OK, I -- will let an
error in the Registry go undetected for long.  But humans can miss
things, and one day different people will be doing this anyway.  I'm not
necessarily opposed to (or in favor of) posting and submitting a
complete Registry, but I did need to clear up that one misstatement:
mistakes in the Registry can be corrected.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


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--
Mark ------=_Part_180726_11747651.1173215209177-- --===============0118100977== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0118100977==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 04:04:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOs4W-0006Tl-DI; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:04:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiy4-0004M5-Ak for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:21:16 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiio-0007Yr-5v for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:05:31 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:05:29 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.111]) with mapi; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:05:29 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:05:28 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes Thread-Index: AcdgLQquilutHZU+SFezcME68Fz6zAAFlXXw Message-ID: References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070306162908.GC30618@mercury.ccil.org> <20070306202135.GH30618@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070306202135.GH30618@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org As I said in response to Gerard, this should have nothing to do with inclus= ion in 639-2; it should be based on macrolanguage mappings in 639-3 togethe= r with constraints to ensure stability in such a case as this. In your scenario, a tag 'xxx' in 639-3 can get added to 639-2 without any c= hange in macrolanguage mappings, and without that tag being in a macrolangu= age-mapping relation. Also, a macrolanguage entity could get added to 639-3= without being included in 639-2. Inclusion in 639-2 should be completely irrelevant for such purposes, IMO. Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:22 PM > To: Peter Constable > Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes > > Peter Constable scripsit: > > > But I don't see why that's an issue. IMO, the difference between > > inclusion in 639-2 vs. 639-3 only should be irrelevant for us. > > Mostly it is. But suppose there is a 639-3 only language code > element 'xxx' which is encompassed by 'yyy'. At present we will > use the tag 'yyy-xxx'. Now suppose 'xxx' is added to 639-2. > > Do we deprecate "yyy-xxx" in favor of "xxx", or do we ignore the > addition of "xxx"? This issue *must* be decided for 4646bis. > > I favor the latter course. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's dau= ghter. > You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathles= s. > For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 04:04:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOs4f-0006eF-CJ; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:04:41 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOjEf-00089O-6C for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:38:25 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.175]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgs6-0003LW-UG for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:07:55 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so310035ugd for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:06:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=lcbogP//NTTWVy4M4dWJPrk1pbXbs3zbrDvXnVVZT8ezc+wcFwKPuLZxTum27KDcv/0+mt0WoO2IiLuRrbkJLwE7VsylTIbkxOqV3OrB6IepbrjA0X77fQKQnt0XJMHVvPZg5kWS7EPy/cI9k6A8RUhWKlhhpZCaXQYgZt4Eiws= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=HE+rEqt76FlSgmJYehPeBCK0eOZWyuABhr803F63tHl0Ti7i3WfJg00q3XiZRDcikJZES06SwENJD8R4dE6wF+d1G6Xe+YjS/EHflxtoDNSTpiKI1kTkWaSqDB6YM7YayOaOJ7dpr4EOxEhUQmv6Sybxitqd0SI0DvS9VXRpzn4= Received: by 10.114.137.2 with SMTP id k2mr1910864wad.1173215209680; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:06:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703061306y6c80beaai4cfdd305a5ac1b9e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:06:49 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Proposals for changes to latest draft In-Reply-To: <00ac01c76000$6d35fe30$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00ac01c76000$6d35fe30$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3c6f3e14eeac3781 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0118100977==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0118100977== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_180726_11747651.1173215209177" ------=_Part_180726_11747651.1173215209177 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline As I said, I'm not wedded to this, so if you think the process is under control, and does not need any changes, I'll drop my proposal. Mark On 3/6/07, Doug Ewell wrote: > > Mark Davis wrote: > > >>>> Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we > >>>> are stuck with any mistakes from then on. > >>> > >>> Actually not. What the LSR sends to IANA is authoritative; if IANA > >>> botches the update, IANA can fix it. > >> > >> Indeed, this has already happened four times since the Registry went > >> live in October 2005. > > > > And that's a bad thing, since if someone picks up a copy of the > > registry and uses it in their software, glitches get propagated. > > Witness the infamous (in our circle) 'jw', which resulted from a > > publication error. > > It's definitely a bad thing. But it's not impossible to correct, which > is what you said at the top of this thread. > > It's not likely that the current set of people -- OK, I -- will let an > error in the Registry go undetected for long. But humans can miss > things, and one day different people will be doing this anyway. I'm not > necessarily opposed to (or in favor of) posting and submitting a > complete Registry, but I did need to clear up that one misstatement: > mistakes in the Registry can be corrected. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_180726_11747651.1173215209177 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline As I said, I'm not wedded to this, so if you think the process is under control, and does not need any changes, I'll drop my proposal.

Mark

On 3/6/07, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net> wrote:
Mark Davis <mark dot davis at icu dash project dot org> wrote:

>>>> Remember that once it goes into the registry, it is fixed, and we
>>>> are stuck with any mistakes from then on.
>>>
>>> Actually not.  What the LSR sends to IANA is authoritative; if IANA
>>> botches the update, IANA can fix it.
>>
>> Indeed, this has already happened four times since the Registry went
>> live in October 2005.
>
> And that's a bad thing, since if someone picks up a copy of the
> registry and uses it in their software, glitches get propagated.
> Witness the infamous (in our circle) 'jw', which resulted from a
> publication error.

It's definitely a bad thing.  But it's not impossible to correct, which
is what you said at the top of this thread.

It's not likely that the current set of people -- OK, I -- will let an
error in the Registry go undetected for long.  But humans can miss
things, and one day different people will be doing this anyway.  I'm not
necessarily opposed to (or in favor of) posting and submitting a
complete Registry, but I did need to clear up that one misstatement:
mistakes in the Registry can be corrected.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_180726_11747651.1173215209177-- --===============0118100977== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0118100977==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 04:04:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOs4W-0006Tl-DI; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:04:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiy4-0004M5-Ak for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:21:16 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiio-0007Yr-5v for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:05:31 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:05:29 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.111]) with mapi; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:05:29 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:05:28 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes Thread-Index: AcdgLQquilutHZU+SFezcME68Fz6zAAFlXXw Message-ID: References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070306162908.GC30618@mercury.ccil.org> <20070306202135.GH30618@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070306202135.GH30618@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org As I said in response to Gerard, this should have nothing to do with inclus= ion in 639-2; it should be based on macrolanguage mappings in 639-3 togethe= r with constraints to ensure stability in such a case as this. In your scenario, a tag 'xxx' in 639-3 can get added to 639-2 without any c= hange in macrolanguage mappings, and without that tag being in a macrolangu= age-mapping relation. Also, a macrolanguage entity could get added to 639-3= without being included in 639-2. Inclusion in 639-2 should be completely irrelevant for such purposes, IMO. Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:22 PM > To: Peter Constable > Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes > > Peter Constable scripsit: > > > But I don't see why that's an issue. IMO, the difference between > > inclusion in 639-2 vs. 639-3 only should be irrelevant for us. > > Mostly it is. But suppose there is a 639-3 only language code > element 'xxx' which is encompassed by 'yyy'. At present we will > use the tag 'yyy-xxx'. Now suppose 'xxx' is added to 639-2. > > Do we deprecate "yyy-xxx" in favor of "xxx", or do we ignore the > addition of "xxx"? This issue *must* be decided for 4646bis. > > I favor the latter course. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's dau= ghter. > You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathles= s. > For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 04:04:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOs4H-0005aj-Cv; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:04:17 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiv9-0004M7-Ew for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:18:23 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiux-0003ur-EJ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:18:06 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l26NHpaX047477 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:17:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=zadBO1p3KiVrnQy1DUbUpmJHzZp4XUeFeqD/5oVRo64QvaYB8k36UbkpURAPeODl Message-ID: <45EDF69F.3090601@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:17:51 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes References: <30b660a20703060005q6ff62d8dnff7a4f7af191a8c3@mail.gmail.com> <45ED8ECE.3BCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45ED91D1.5020303@gmail.com> <45ED9DA0.1B90@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45EDA33B.6000606@yahoo-inc.com> <45EDCD6D.4A16@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <45EDCD6D.4A16@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > > If the 4645bis extlang cjy is deprecated in favour of a future > language subtag cjy, applications aware of this could replace > zh-cjy by cjy on the fly before trying to match tags. That changes a basic assumption of at least some matching implementations---that all you need are the strings you're given. Matching today doesn't follow deprecation paths. User's tag choices (presumably) do. > >> I think it would create serious problems. > > It's not worse than other cases of deprecated tags or subtags. Except that there is a *lot* of content tagged with 'zh'. Most of the deprecated codes are pretty small potatoes (important if you happen to be involved)... and very few language subtags are (the classical "mistaken codes", plus Serbo-Croatian) or likely will be. > > OTOH I think it would be a serious problem if some 639-2 codes > aren't permitted without a prefix in 4646bis tags: Folks will > go for the shortest tag they can get away with and beyond. My > crystal ball says. > I understand what you're getting at: that some folks may use the ISO 639-2 codes without looking at the registry to see that they are extlangs in need of a prefix. This will, indeed, be a problem. You hardly need a crystal ball to predict this. Still, if most users get used to seeing the right format, I predict that they will actually rebel against shorter forms. That is, I imagine that Chinese folks will rapidly get the idea that they should insert a three-letter code into their zh-XXXX-YY tag to make zh-zzz-XXXX-YY, rather than jumping to the conclusion that they should be using zzz-XXXX-YY. -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 04:04:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOs4s-00079w-FL; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:04:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiyw-0005U4-DS for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:22:10 -0500 Received: from netc-relay-1m.netcourrier.com ([194.158.104.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOi0B-0004Eq-34 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:19:24 -0500 Received: from netcourrier.com (netcourrier-2m.netcourrier.com [194.158.104.102]) by netc-relay-1m.netcourrier.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B0953885F for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:19:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [85.68.10.110] by netcourrier-2m.netcourrier.com via html interface From: Nicolas Krebs To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposal: URIs for language tags Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:19:01 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Medianet/v2.0 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org >Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:51:52 -0500 >To: ltru=40ietf.org >From: John Cowan >Subject: =5BLtru=5D Proposal: URIs for language tags > >There are various contexts in which non-representational objects such >as languages are represented by URIs. At present, there is no standard >URI for a BCP 47 language tag. The current draft of RDF-Topic Maps >Interoperability proposes a local set of URIs, but I think it would be >better to have a universal set. Could be useful. = >This would be a new section of 4646bis, and the issues are > >1) whether to do it at all >2) what set of URIs to use. > >I think something of the form > > http://www.iana.org/assignments/XXXX?en-us > >would be suitable. = Why =22?=22 rather than =22/=22 ? = > Note the lowercasing of the tag part. = Why lowercasing ? = > This is a URI >pattern, not an URL pattern, and need not return anything in particular >when fetched. Yes. If needed, a little text like saying that this is an rui for bcp 47 l= anguage = tag could be published. = What is the best between = RewriteRule assignments/XXXX/. assignments/XXXX/note.txt =5BL=5D and = RewriteRule assignments/XXXX/. assignments/XXXX/note.txt =5BR=3D303,L=5D = ? = >We should negotiate with IANA to determine the appropriate value of XXXX. >IMHO =22language-subtag-registry=22 is inappropriate, and =22language-tag= s=22 >and =22lang-tags/XXX=22 are in use for the old 3066 registry. =22langtag= =22, >singular, no hyphen, might be good. Knowing that there were previous uri for rfc-1766 tag famillie, and = to prevent issue if other rfc defining langtag, i think =22rfc4646bis=22 o= r = =22bcp 47=22 could be added in =22XXXX=22. = _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 04:05:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOs5h-0008QQ-8c; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:05:45 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiyL-0005QY-Q4 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:21:33 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiWB-00027P-Ms for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:52:28 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HOiWB-00083i-UQ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:52:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:52:27 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants Message-ID: <20070306225227.GK30618@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703051012w74bcf467h39abcdbd0f57d370@mail.gmail.com> <20070305185243.GA17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061311k65c65far2b82ff71928cf6bf@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703061311k65c65far2b82ff71928cf6bf@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > I don't think it is too late. We are not talking about changing > backwards compatibility; all old language tags would continue to > work. What would happen is that old parsers wouldn't recognize the new > codes, but the changes that we are considering for the extlang would > mean that any old parsers wouldn't be able to recognize new codes like > zh-min anyway. No, it means that old parsers that used the BNF would recognize the tags using the new subtags as not well-formed. One of the stated purposes of 4646 was to get the syntax stabilized once and for all. zh-min is well-formed by 4646 rules, en-0ipa is not. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan "The exception proves the rule." Dimbulbs think: "Your counterexample proves my theory." Latin students think "'Probat' means 'tests': the exception puts the rule to the proof." But legal historians know it means "Evidence for an exception is evidence of the existence of a rule in cases not excepted from." _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 04:06:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOs6O-0001Cx-LB; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:06:28 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOjEg-00089G-U0 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:38:26 -0500 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.232]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgqT-0003F9-Ny for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:06:16 -0500 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 58so3025667wri for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:05:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=UPyxHzliZElQgSR5Glj1+tR06bE6ETeFB+vttm32KiJtE3EW2xOR7jTSzrGdCdBxNO1x3OmxprXZm7NLpbeDAyLpGHWqdwtNM4p+W6Am63DZrFozOFnhl7jXNh1FSFdQ9u9Jfz4ssSpdQEsQZvgGNmnJvu3w747i/YmczLyozeI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Mgw8/JIRRnb0AOkdg2MbMXEuZ6vb9Qy/gHFsqQ2tTY6oaz8QZbfdl3p52/tF49B3FNzX+0s3C8NdQmvfG5DnpMG++7t1eyKgTfY4dBS+sADFf1W/s+oNVaEWKXj1tDXWy9ITiO4tOxd4s/N1tgWS6B4zfaYMuAno8sfJJfvuizI= Received: by 10.114.12.9 with SMTP id 9mr1905113wal.1173215116585; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:05:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:05:16 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) In-Reply-To: <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: eb87ee342694f9e5 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1056031542==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1056031542== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_180666_7916343.1173215116412" ------=_Part_180666_7916343.1173215116412 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No 4646 code expresses any multiple usages; they are single codes. That is orthogonal to whether entries are separated or not. The set {en-Zxxx; fr; de; ja} represents the content you indicate, without resorting other structural requirements. We also added Sign languages, without requiring that those be separated out into separate metadata streams. As to the need, well, I think it's pretty obvious. I realize that if you are working in a text-only world you may not see that need; I personally may not see the need for adding 6,000 language codes to the registry, but am willing to trust that reasonable people have legitimate needs for those codes. Do we really want to go through each and every code and have someone justify a need for each one? Mark On 3/6/07, John Cowan wrote: > > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > Movies are an obvious case of constrastive usage. While you might find > it > > "most naturally expressed in two distinct metadata properties", we > don't. > > What 4646-compliant tag expresses the case "Spoken language in American > English with subtitles in French, German, or Japanese"? You *have* to > have separate entries for the spoken language of a film and the language > of subtitling. > > > [W]hat is so difficult about realizing that some people may have a > > legitimate need to distinguish written from non-written, say, English > > with language tags? > > *Saying* "there's a need" is not a magic formula. We need to know what > the need actually is. > > -- > One Word to write them all, John Cowan > One Access to find them, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > One Excel to count them all, > And thus to Windows bind them. --Mike Champion > -- Mark ------=_Part_180666_7916343.1173215116412 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No 4646 code expresses any multiple usages; they are single codes. That is orthogonal to whether entries are separated or not. The set {en-Zxxx; fr; de; ja} represents the content you indicate, without resorting other structural requirements. We also added Sign languages, without requiring that those be separated out into separate metadata streams.

As to the need, well, I think it's pretty obvious. I realize that if you are working in a text-only world you may not see that need; I personally may not see the need for adding 6,000 language codes to the registry, but am willing to trust that reasonable people have legitimate needs for those codes. Do we really want to go through each and every code and have someone justify a need for each one?

Mark

On 3/6/07, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> Movies are an obvious case of constrastive usage. While you might find it
> "most naturally expressed in two distinct metadata properties", we don't.

What 4646-compliant tag expresses the case "Spoken language in American
English with subtitles in French, German, or Japanese"?  You *have* to
have separate entries for the spoken language of a film and the language
of subtitling.

> [W]hat is so difficult about realizing that some people may have a
> legitimate need to distinguish written from non-written, say, English
> with language tags?

*Saying* "there's a need" is not a magic formula.  We need to know what
the need actually is.

--
One Word to write them all,             John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
  One Access to find them,              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
One Excel to count them all,
  And thus to Windows bind them.                --Mike Champion



--
Mark ------=_Part_180666_7916343.1173215116412-- --===============1056031542== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1056031542==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 04:07:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOs7J-0003DT-Co; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:07:25 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOj0c-0005d0-Mv for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:23:54 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.175]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOgwX-0007v5-AJ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:11:57 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so311132ugd for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:11:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=mV76zq9UhiObyWxWHkbuyvtM0OPylQOX9BRByj6yMawb45HUh+p79JzaWlm7nNvfBRkypK5Cnm9AR4Lg/GbtA0HXvT5+Off9vxdN7Erypkn0FKlfwpLCts+XNSVLEfHwlKf1On1fLRYLwjJErEaoywu0bkHiKE70MK1nEsgfaNE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=jrGaVhvI36oWX/tYUpvuWVmQQk8RhrywXQKQH6k34pfnUlr+/jjcw05ER+btSDiW2wL6DRBiyvBg7vHij6TeRjm/INCtewDXrN/EvW18sWqNIoc4RnFDQW60VpxwNk0f5ygEde+Ngz2EQgHCnFQznmPmvdAcD1hmYA/Av7/LtiQ= Received: by 10.114.75.1 with SMTP id x1mr804009waa.1173215491312; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:11:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703061311k65c65far2b82ff71928cf6bf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:11:31 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants In-Reply-To: <20070305185243.GA17952@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> <45EC5940.8090406@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703051012w74bcf467h39abcdbd0f57d370@mail.gmail.com> <20070305185243.GA17952@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 18c2761be12e4ea4 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1572532283==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1572532283== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_180851_18232673.1173215491260" ------=_Part_180851_18232673.1173215491260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't think it is too late. We are not talking about changing backwards compatibility; all old language tags would continue to work. What would happen is that old parsers wouldn't recognize the new codes, but the changes that we are considering for the extlang would mean that any old parsers wouldn't be able to recognize new codes like zh-min anyway. I agree with you that ideally we wouldn't need to do this, but the current use of variants for orthographic differences is just broken, so I think Addison's suggestion is pretty reasonable. Mark On 3/5/07, John Cowan wrote: > > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > 1. I think adding ALPHA 2alphanum DIGIT (or some variant) to fix the > > situation would be a great step forward. > > Too late now; that entails changing the syntax. > > > > -- Ask ISO 15924 about adding a "Part II: Codes for script > > >variations". Their namespace is enormous and unlikely to ever fill up, > > Actually it is not, because every 4-alpha code has a 3-digit equivalent. > That's why there are so few private-use tags. > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan > Nobody expects the RESTifarian Inquisition! Our chief weapon is > surprise ... surprise and tedium ... tedium and surprise .... > Our two weapons are tedium and surprise ... and ruthless disregard > for unpleasant facts.... Our three weapons are tedium, surprise, and > ruthless disregard ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Roy > Fielding.... > -- Mark ------=_Part_180851_18232673.1173215491260 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't think it is too late. We are not talking about changing backwards compatibility; all old language tags would continue to work. What would happen is that old parsers wouldn't recognize the new codes, but the changes that we are considering for the extlang would mean that any old parsers wouldn't be able to recognize new codes like zh-min anyway.

I agree with you that ideally we wouldn't need to do this, but the current use of variants for orthographic differences is just broken, so I think Addison's suggestion is pretty reasonable.

Mark

On 3/5/07, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> 1. I think adding ALPHA 2alphanum DIGIT (or some variant) to fix the
> situation would be a great step forward.

Too late now; that entails changing the syntax.

> >   -- Ask ISO 15924 about adding a "Part II: Codes for script
> >variations". Their namespace is enormous and unlikely to ever fill up,

Actually it is not, because every 4-alpha code has a 3-digit equivalent.
That's why there are so few private-use tags.

--
John Cowan    cowan@ccil.org    http://ccil.org/~cowan
Nobody expects the RESTifarian Inquisition!  Our chief weapon is
surprise ... surprise and tedium  ... tedium and surprise ....
Our two weapons are tedium and surprise ... and ruthless disregard
for unpleasant facts....  Our three weapons are tedium, surprise, and
ruthless disregard ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Roy Fielding....



--
Mark ------=_Part_180851_18232673.1173215491260-- --===============1572532283== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1572532283==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 04:11:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOsBS-0002Q2-II; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:11:42 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOpeT-0004Bu-Mn for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 01:29:29 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOpeS-0006zJ-EE for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 01:29:29 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070307062924.OOOD2272.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:29:24 +0000 Message-ID: <002b01c76081$f29f6ad0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:29:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Subject: [Ltru] Re: ISO 639 codes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: >> But I don't see why that's an issue. IMO, the difference between >> inclusion in 639-2 vs. 639-3 only should be irrelevant for us. > > Mostly it is. But suppose there is a 639-3 only language code element > 'xxx' which is encompassed by 'yyy'. At present we will use the tag > 'yyy-xxx'. Now suppose 'xxx' is added to 639-2. > > Do we deprecate "yyy-xxx" in favor of "xxx", or do we ignore the > addition of "xxx"? This issue *must* be decided for 4646bis. > > I favor the latter course. I thought we had decided this a long time ago (in favor of the latter course), and I'm really surprised that we are having this discussion again, or that the situation with Akan and Twi (et al.) comes as news to anyone. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 14:15:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP1bq-0000Jx-7f; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:15:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP1bo-0000Hy-Sv for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:15:32 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP1bn-0003E7-Fy for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:15:32 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HP1bg-00052n-UT; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:15:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 14:15:24 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Message-ID: <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > As to the need, well, I think it's pretty obvious. I realize that > if you are working in a text-only world you may not see that need; > I personally may not see the need for adding 6,000 language codes to > the registry, but am willing to trust that reasonable people have > legitimate needs for those codes. Do we really want to go through > each and every code and have someone justify a need for each one? I think I see. What you want is a tag that means "No script", as 'zxx' means "No language" and '001' means "No region" (worldwide). I didn't understand that before. In that case I think 'Zxxx' serves the purpose. Doug, can you restate the case against it (other than "Michael says we don't, we don't")? -- Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies! John Cowan Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 15:15:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP2Xj-0002Ud-1m; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:15:23 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP2Xh-0002U0-I6 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:15:21 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP2Xg-0005fA-7T for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:15:21 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l27KF7l2042008 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:15:08 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject: content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hQMAmP3yscRnF74illNXA8R2mr1gxWxN3d4yJJS/ZznARpN3DJ5kWxJLi7XzgeXf Message-ID: <45EF1D4A.1080402@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:15:06 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Subject: [Ltru] ABNF woes... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org In preparing draft-03, I'm having some trouble with our ABNF. In particular, we changed this: -- singleton = %x41-57 / %x59-5A / %x61-77 / %x79-7A / DIGIT ; "a"-"w" / "y"-"z" / "A"-"W" / "Y"-"Z" / "0"-"9" ; Single letters: x/X is reserved for private use -- to this: -- singleton = "a"-"w" / "y"-"z" / "0"-"9" ; Single alphanumerics; "x" reserved for private use ; NOTE: ABNF is case-insensitive -- The theory was the ABNF is case-insensitive and this was much clearer than the old hex-heavy notation. The problem is that the ABNF validator is unhappy with the new form and a close reading of RFC 4234 suggests that the new form is incorrect. I'm reverting to the old form (with a correction of the comment from "letters" to "alphanumerics") unless someone has a good argument for why I can use string literals to form a range and still be "valid". Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 15:38:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP2tc-0004gq-BB; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:38:00 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP2tb-0004gl-Mj for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:37:59 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP2tX-00086i-B6 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:37:59 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l27Kbpkw043701 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:37:51 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject: content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PeLg4GnpW+Sz5KtU2wcQx686HDy+5/P0/etqpxvqxW8yBWQhV21azKFADMZ7OS7P Message-ID: <45EF229F.8020409@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:37:51 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Subject: [Ltru] editor's copy updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have updated the editor's copy of draft-03, including many (but not all) of Mark's proposed changes, plus various other modifications proposed over time. Notable among these: 1. I included various items related to the (non-)use of script subtags with unwritten content. Section 4.1 in particular merits a look, since the edits were more than inserting a couple of sentences. 2. I changed the registry to UTF-8. I realize that Frank still doesn't love this change, but most all other respondents supported it. 3. Section 3.5 contains explicit instructions about what the LSR MUST do after each two-week period. My text is organized differently from Mark's proposal. 4. Section 2.2.9 (conformance) is heavily rewritten using Mark's proposal as a starting point. One notable innovation: I referenced RFC 4647, something we couldn't do in RFC 4646. Things I did not do (yet): 1. I didn't incorporate any changes to the LSR position or how it is filled, segmented, etc. 2. I haven't updated my xml2rfc files. I'll have to do that before submitting this draft. ANBF checks. idnits are (otherwise) clean. A wdiff link is thoughtfully provided on my home page (Safari users are advised that you won't be able to read my home page :-( ). http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.xml Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 18:10:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP5HB-0001pP-Vz; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:10:29 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP53i-0006Sn-A2 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:56:34 -0500 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.230]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP3jd-00075r-9u for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:31:48 -0500 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 58so503586wri for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:31:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=F5qQxqDaZzRxbKtfWxuEFHHtj9iy0XLiv5T+gFm5vmjSdTDAWw7No/YPczZilkjx1k3ZqmfKwEz8NHQxZnBPPgDPuREBhu6n67OPz2u1YUisap/XR7mnqnEyvJKvrfy2Jj+nWxugAHhcF/F2Fb5c9dPslgh0ix/1qCv22JtIaTY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=skxW1c6Uoc5kKZJwTkUw2rKVliUDXCeam6Rz9c9M1w61zwYCFEOHqmUzTHUqZYCuA3IeMbmbKaRy463KyCPLhVwKNXFdh8xKkLX8usPKNABLwxvmUvgBfhtoEs05C5LTBoa0iee5W5/Kb1wyflQHjS36qY2GTJZFRP/SPB7liYY= Received: by 10.114.200.2 with SMTP id x2mr2349365waf.1173303103529; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:31:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:31:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703071331id03e0d9yba85041b32611dd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:31:43 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) In-Reply-To: <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c747f4aaa54b9d3d X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1379113831==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1379113831== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_209652_24704130.1173303103309" ------=_Part_209652_24704130.1173303103309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Exactly. Sorry I couldn't explain it better beforehand. Mark On 3/7/07, John Cowan wrote: > > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > As to the need, well, I think it's pretty obvious. I realize that > > if you are working in a text-only world you may not see that need; > > I personally may not see the need for adding 6,000 language codes to > > the registry, but am willing to trust that reasonable people have > > legitimate needs for those codes. Do we really want to go through > > each and every code and have someone justify a need for each one? > > I think I see. What you want is a tag that means "No script", > as 'zxx' means "No language" and '001' means "No region" (worldwide). > I didn't understand that before. > > In that case I think 'Zxxx' serves the purpose. > Doug, can you restate the case against it (other than "Michael > says we don't, we don't")? > > -- > Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies! John Cowan > Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, > Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer) > -- Mark ------=_Part_209652_24704130.1173303103309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Exactly. Sorry I couldn't explain it better beforehand.

Mark

On 3/7/07, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> As to the need, well, I think it's pretty obvious. I realize that
> if you are working in a text-only world you may not see that need;
> I personally may not see the need for adding 6,000 language codes to
> the registry, but am willing to trust that reasonable people have
> legitimate needs for those codes.  Do we really want to go through
> each and every code and have someone justify a need for each one?

I think I see.  What you want is a tag that means "No script",
as 'zxx' means "No language" and '001' means "No region" (worldwide).
I didn't understand that before.

In that case I think 'Zxxx' serves the purpose.
Doug, can you restate the case against it (other than "Michael
says we don't, we don't")?

--
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies!    John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,     http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau,
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.            -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)



--
Mark ------=_Part_209652_24704130.1173303103309-- --===============1379113831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1379113831==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 19:35:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP6bG-0006Q0-Cf; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:35:18 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP52O-00050h-6Z for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:55:12 -0500 Received: from virtual3.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP4N1-0004MY-Ic for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:12:28 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id EEF8524080E; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:12:08 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6145511B4B; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:08:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:08:04 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Addison Phillips Message-ID: <20070307220804.GA24355@sources.org> References: <45EF1D4A.1080402@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45EF1D4A.1080402@yahoo-inc.com> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] Re: ABNF woes... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Mar 07, 2007 at 12:15:06PM -0800, Addison Phillips wrote a message of 41 lines which said: > The problem is that the ABNF validator is unhappy with the new form > and a close reading of RFC 4234 suggests that the new form is > incorrect. Indeed, all the ABNF tools reject it. Sorry for not reporting the mistake earlier. > I'm reverting to the old form OK _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 19:38:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP6e5-0007fF-Vj; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:38:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP6e4-0007eq-HD for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:38:12 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.172]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP6e1-0003db-H0 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:38:12 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so733391ugd for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:38:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=AHnd9Wh8gH+YqCNzygUBt4JLbHuXYBc8YmPJXBuu+AlO1PD3rZe17LrDxR2hhEvsIXqNQwwrYdAbs4LS6YyacrtCa4DOfFlfqYcnySfQcNcpXi4i6MyhKmRfUuQ47r84vj1ZNESE7Of+UMSF7ib4TLkhqhyySKcDfMqVSUKYdvI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=k2gkGqP0oQxJOxe767BnhA1keBWRQy3d7BbbKYqrX9wGziUQPOzrR3a7WjiXqfX8YJcrG4eX3h6xBIteq+LT6mIVATVIWDXBXP316/ZlUyLwA4nR3YMgD0AKLbEnusqepPApkwccpnSUYAMdHukxvfqVuMZYJlB9s0D75g+OPzw= Received: by 10.114.107.19 with SMTP id f19mr2409066wac.1173314285028; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:38:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703071638o857f140uc815f5e58d1fc886@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:38:04 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy updated... In-Reply-To: <45EF229F.8020409@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <45EF229F.8020409@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 51a9f65e405a82a8 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2ed806e2f53ff1a061ad4f97e00345ac Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1188683800==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1188683800== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_213083_7831976.1173314284985" ------=_Part_213083_7831976.1173314284985 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks for all your work. 1. I think there is enough of a consensus to include in 2.2.3 6 The script subtag Zxxx MAY be used to indicate unwritten content. The text you have in 4.1 goes in the right direction, but does not let someone explicitly indicate unwritten content. 2. The conformance stuff looks good. 3. In 3.1.2, you omitted: A Prefix MUST not conflict with already registered subtag Prefixes. A conflict would occur when when no valid tag could be constructed that would contain the prefix, such as when when two subtags each have a Prefix that contains the other subtag. For example, suppose that the subtag 'avariant' has the prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix 'avariant', for that would require a tag of the form "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be valid. Without that, there is nothing to prevent impossible prefix combinations. 4. I'm unhappy about the omissions of changes to the LSR term. Our goal should be to have the best possible LSR. If that happens to be the current holder, fine, but off the top of my head I can think of several much more qualified candidates. 5. We need to have SOME statement on whether the ordering of variants is important or not. My suggestion is that it should not be important. Since the canonicalization is designed to remove irrelevant differences, it should then contain the text. Any sequence of variant tags MUST be reordered such that for each variant subtags A and B, A comes before B if 1. A has no prefix and B has a prefix 2. or A and B are not ordered by #1, and A is part of a prefix (given the previous non-variant subtags) for B 3. or A and B are not ordered by #1 or #2, and A is alphabetically before B If it IS important, then we have to clearly state what the difference is, and how people are to decide what the order is, and how the poor damn'd software developer is to predict what that order is supposed to be. Mark On 3/7/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > I have updated the editor's copy of draft-03, including many (but not > all) of Mark's proposed changes, plus various other modifications > proposed over time. > > Notable among these: > > 1. I included various items related to the (non-)use of script subtags > with unwritten content. Section 4.1 in particular merits a look, since > the edits were more than inserting a couple of sentences. > > 2. I changed the registry to UTF-8. I realize that Frank still doesn't > love this change, but most all other respondents supported it. > > 3. Section 3.5 contains explicit instructions about what the LSR MUST do > after each two-week period. My text is organized differently from Mark's > proposal. > > 4. Section 2.2.9 (conformance) is heavily rewritten using Mark's > proposal as a starting point. One notable innovation: I referenced RFC > 4647, something we couldn't do in RFC 4646. > > Things I did not do (yet): > > 1. I didn't incorporate any changes to the LSR position or how it is > filled, segmented, etc. > > 2. I haven't updated my xml2rfc files. I'll have to do that before > submitting this draft. > > ANBF checks. idnits are (otherwise) clean. A wdiff link is thoughtfully > provided on my home page (Safari users are advised that you won't be > able to read my home page :-( ). > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.html > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.xml > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_213083_7831976.1173314284985 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks for all your work.

1. I think there is enough of a consensus to include in 2.2.3

6 The script subtag Zxxx MAY be used to indicate unwritten content.

The text you have in 4.1 goes in the right direction, but does not let someone explicitly indicate unwritten content.

2. The conformance stuff looks good.

3. In 3.1.2, you omitted:

A Prefix MUST not conflict with already registered subtag Prefixes. A conflict would occur when when no valid tag could be constructed that would contain the prefix, such as when when two subtags each have a Prefix that contains the other subtag. For example, suppose that the subtag 'avariant' has the prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix 'avariant', for that would require a tag of the form "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be valid.

Without that, there is nothing to prevent impossible prefix combinations.

4. I'm unhappy about the omissions of changes to the LSR term. Our goal should be to have the best possible LSR. If that happens to be the current holder, fine, but off the top of my head I can think of several much more qualified candidates.

5. We need to have SOME statement on whether the ordering of variants is important or not. My suggestion is that it should not be important. Since the canonicalization is designed to remove irrelevant differences, it should then contain the text.

Any sequence of variant tags MUST be reordered such that for each variant subtags A and B, A comes before B if
  1. A has no prefix and B has a prefix
  2. or A and B are not ordered by #1, and A is part of a prefix (given the previous non-variant subtags) for B
  3. or A and B are not ordered by #1 or #2, and A is alphabetically before B
If it IS important, then we have to clearly state what the difference is, and how people are to decide what the order is, and how the poor damn'd software developer is to predict what that order is supposed to be.

Mark

On 3/7/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
I have updated the editor's copy of draft-03, including many (but not
all) of Mark's proposed changes, plus various other modifications
proposed over time.

Notable among these:

1. I included various items related to the (non-)use of script subtags
with unwritten content. Section 4.1 in particular merits a look, since
the edits were more than inserting a couple of sentences.

2. I changed the registry to UTF-8. I realize that Frank still doesn't
love this change, but most all other respondents supported it.

3. Section 3.5 contains explicit instructions about what the LSR MUST do
after each two-week period. My text is organized differently from Mark's
proposal.

4. Section 2.2.9 (conformance) is heavily rewritten using Mark's
proposal as a starting point. One notable innovation: I referenced RFC
4647, something we couldn't do in RFC 4646.

Things I did not do (yet):

1. I didn't incorporate any changes to the LSR position or how it is
filled, segmented, etc.

2. I haven't updated my xml2rfc files. I'll have to do that before
submitting this draft.

ANBF checks. idnits are (otherwise) clean. A wdiff link is thoughtfully
provided on my home page (Safari users are advised that you won't be
able to read my home page :-( ).

   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.html
   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt
   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.xml

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_213083_7831976.1173314284985-- --===============1188683800== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1188683800==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 20:33:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP7Ux-0001V5-JO; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:32:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP7Uw-0001Uw-1W for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:32:50 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP7Uu-00066T-I8 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:32:49 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.20] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c20.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l281WQxb040638 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:32:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BX+aGLVw97k/RKk8Nbq5cU0S05aOQFRDSXegPs2jHC8ufaCaJWy75um/tdk7+ZNr Message-ID: <45EF67AB.2080908@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:32:27 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy updated... References: <45EF229F.8020409@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703071638o857f140uc815f5e58d1fc886@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703071638o857f140uc815f5e58d1fc886@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 22bbb45ef41b733eb2d03ee71ece8243 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org See below. Mark Davis wrote: > Thanks for all your work. > > 1. I think there is enough of a consensus to include in 2.2.3 > > 6 The script subtag Zxxx MAY be used to indicate unwritten content. I agree and we should include an example in "choice". > > The text you have in 4.1 goes in the right direction, but does not let > someone explicitly indicate unwritten content. ... which would be section 4.1. The text I put here was a (heavily edited) version of the text I discussed with Karen previously. How about adding this as an additional bullet following the "no audio" bullet: -- Sometimes it is necessary to distinguish written from unwritten content in the same context. In particular, one is sometimes obliged to indicate the script for the written content: this can interfere with certain kinds of matching operation (such as Basic Filtering [RFC 4647]). The script subtag 'Zxxx' is RECOMMENDED for indicating unwritten content in these cases. For example, when selecting resources in Serbian, one might tag text with "sr-Cyrl" and "sr-Latn", while unwritten content would be tagged with "sr-Zxxx". -- > > 2. The conformance stuff looks good. Cool. > > 3. In 3.1.2, you omitted: > > A Prefix MUST not conflict with already registered subtag Prefixes. A > conflict would occur when when no valid tag could be constructed that > would contain the prefix, such as when when two subtags each have a > Prefix that contains the other subtag. For example, suppose that the > subtag 'avariant' has the prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag > 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix 'avariant', for that would require a > tag of the form "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be valid. That's.... not true. I didn't think it belonged in 3.1.2. It belongs instead where I put it... in 3.1.7, where you'll find: -- The field-body of the 'Prefix' field MUST NOT conflict with any 'Prefix' already registered for a given record. Such a conflict would occur when when no valid tag could be constructed that would contain the prefix, such as when when two subtags each have a 'Prefix' that contains the other subtag. For example, suppose that the subtag 'avariant' has the prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix 'avariant', for that would require a tag of the form "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be valid. -- My thinking here is that section 3.1.2 defines what the fields are and mean, but the field-specific sections are where we find the details about each one. I should note that I was sorely tempted to edit this part of 3.1.7: -- The field-body of the 'Prefix' field consists of a language tag whose subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag. -- to say instead: -- The field-body of the 'Prefix' field consists of an extended language range [RFC 4647] whose subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag. -- > > Without that, there is nothing to prevent impossible prefix combinations. > > 4. I'm unhappy about the omissions of changes to the LSR term. Our goal > should be to have the best possible LSR. If that happens to be the > current holder, fine, but off the top of my head I can think of several > much more qualified candidates. I omitted it because I wanted more time to work on incorporating the text. In particular, Michael suggested splitting the job (which is more work than your edits). I wanted to get this set of edits in place first. I do *not* disagree with the need to look at term, performance, and assignment rules. However, I wanted to put all of the generally agreed or "near consensus" stuff in first to have a copy to fall back on. > > 5. We need to have SOME statement on whether the ordering of variants is > important or not. My suggestion is that it should not be important. > Since the canonicalization is designed to remove irrelevant differences, > it should then contain the text. We disagree here: variant order is always important to matching, even though it isn't usually that important to tag meaning. Therefore users need to be aware of the subtag order. I'm on record as favoring exclusion of future "general purpose" variants to avoid the canonicalization problem, as well as several suggestions for how we might address the real problem, which is the recalcitrance of ISO 15924 to register things you and I perceive to be "scripts" (in BCP 47 terms). > > If it IS important, then we have to clearly state what the difference > is, and how people are to decide what the order is, and how the poor > damn'd software developer is to predict what that order is supposed to be. The order is important. The order that the user puts them in is the order to use. General purpose variants are the source of the problem and their elimination would put paid to the issue (language-specific variants are either mutually exclusive or have Prefix relationships). Thanks, Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 20:47:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP7iy-0008CE-AA; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:47:20 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP7ix-00089r-C4 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:47:19 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.174]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP7iw-0000pi-Gp for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:47:19 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so750421ugd for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:47:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rKaTPREByydbnGXxqhHNpLQWLO/P0PTKxX2hpAmqZsbHHQEKKxgIwCnv91D9Uw7cmy/6HFk+8AzUL50mzXPFsfOJVS8VSzCMg7JIcogRmEl24eSLh71fHAlzNuRHfjZx94AfJJ5SsvIHPZNS8TS6nPdcTsOyZ1uod4PpEelxVYA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rd/HayXqqoUdiVGvvm7vyyg8dC41IKHMr06o7CbFTQMsF33m1Zi1TpzZb47wr+m+hpZYFmpgsMZEGldlY3j0Oi+6/F0g3X4DkhoYCgET0OSBx0udgVrO+2OUSAi4gRrdoi3DnYSWIGLzDXYUjrAqoZvb4aYp95GSD0r+j/meCdk= Received: by 10.114.171.1 with SMTP id t1mr2422764wae.1173318436437; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:47:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703071747i2b673666h78914645b6affeed@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:47:16 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy updated... In-Reply-To: <45EF67AB.2080908@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <45EF229F.8020409@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703071638o857f140uc815f5e58d1fc886@mail.gmail.com> <45EF67AB.2080908@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 94c2e5447e866cac X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d9238570526f12788af3d33c67f37625 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2048728513==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2048728513== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_214359_25078737.1173318436376" ------=_Part_214359_25078737.1173318436376 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline comments below. On 3/7/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > See below. > > Mark Davis wrote: > > Thanks for all your work. > > > > 1. I think there is enough of a consensus to include in 2.2.3 > > > > 6 The script subtag Zxxx MAY be used to indicate unwritten content. > > > I agree and we should include an example in "choice". ok > > > The text you have in 4.1 goes in the right direction, but does not let > > someone explicitly indicate unwritten content. > > ... which would be section 4.1. The text I put here was a (heavily > edited) version of the text I discussed with Karen previously. How about > adding this as an additional bullet following the "no audio" bullet: > > -- > Sometimes it is necessary to distinguish written from unwritten content > in the same context. In particular, one is sometimes obliged to indicate > the script for the written content: this can interfere with certain > kinds of matching operation (such as Basic Filtering [RFC 4647]). The > script subtag 'Zxxx' is RECOMMENDED for indicating unwritten content in > these cases. For example, when selecting resources in Serbian, one might > tag text with "sr-Cyrl" and "sr-Latn", while unwritten content would be > tagged with "sr-Zxxx". Looks good. Let's do it. -- > > > > 2. The conformance stuff looks good. > > Cool. > > > > > 3. In 3.1.2, you omitted: > > > > A Prefix MUST not conflict with already registered subtag Prefixes. A > > conflict would occur when when no valid tag could be constructed that > > would contain the prefix, such as when when two subtags each have a > > Prefix that contains the other subtag. For example, suppose that the > > subtag 'avariant' has the prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag > > 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix 'avariant', for that would require a > > tag of the form "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be > valid. > > That's.... not true. I didn't think it belonged in 3.1.2. It belongs > instead where I put it... in 3.1.7, where you'll find: > > -- > The field-body of the 'Prefix' field MUST NOT conflict with any 'Prefix' > already registered for a given record. Such a conflict would occur when > when no valid tag could be constructed that would contain the prefix, > such as when when two subtags each have a 'Prefix' that contains the > other subtag. For example, suppose that the subtag 'avariant' has the > prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix > 'avariant', for that would require a tag of the form > "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be valid. > -- > > My thinking here is that section 3.1.2 defines what the fields are and > mean, but the field-specific sections are where we find the details > about each one. Sorry, I missed that. Yes, that location and wording is fine. I should note that I was sorely tempted to edit this part of 3.1.7: > > -- > The field-body of the 'Prefix' field consists of a language tag whose > subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag. > -- > > to say instead: > > -- > The field-body of the 'Prefix' field consists of an extended language > range [RFC 4647] whose subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag. I like that one, but we should float it by others before changing the text. -- > > > > > Without that, there is nothing to prevent impossible prefix > combinations. > > > > 4. I'm unhappy about the omissions of changes to the LSR term. Our goal > > should be to have the best possible LSR. If that happens to be the > > current holder, fine, but off the top of my head I can think of several > > much more qualified candidates. > > I omitted it because I wanted more time to work on incorporating the > text. In particular, Michael suggested splitting the job (which is more > work than your edits). I wanted to get this set of edits in place first. > I do *not* disagree with the need to look at term, performance, and > assignment rules. > > However, I wanted to put all of the generally agreed or "near consensus" > stuff in first to have a copy to fall back on. ok > > > 5. We need to have SOME statement on whether the ordering of variants is > > important or not. My suggestion is that it should not be important. > > Since the canonicalization is designed to remove irrelevant differences, > > it should then contain the text. > > We disagree here: variant order is always important to matching, even > though it isn't usually that important to tag meaning. Therefore users > need to be aware of the subtag order. I'm on record as favoring > exclusion of future "general purpose" variants to avoid the > canonicalization problem, as well as several suggestions for how we > might address the real problem, which is the recalcitrance of ISO 15924 > to register things you and I perceive to be "scripts" (in BCP 47 terms). I agree with the latter. I think the exclusion of general purpose variants doesn't solve the ordering problem, but will reply separately. > > > If it IS important, then we have to clearly state what the difference > > is, and how people are to decide what the order is, and how the poor > > damn'd software developer is to predict what that order is supposed to > be. > > The order is important. The order that the user puts them in is the > order to use. General purpose variants are the source of the problem and > their elimination would put paid to the issue (language-specific > variants are either mutually exclusive or have Prefix relationships). see other reply. Thanks, > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > -- Mark ------=_Part_214359_25078737.1173318436376 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline comments below.

On 3/7/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
See below.

Mark Davis wrote:
> Thanks for all your work.
>
> 1. I think there is enough of a consensus to include in 2.2.3
>
> 6 The script subtag Zxxx MAY be used to indicate unwritten content.


I agree and we should include an example in "choice".

ok

>
> The text you have in 4.1 goes in the right direction, but does not let
> someone explicitly indicate unwritten content.

... which would be section 4.1. The text I put here was a (heavily
edited) version of the text I discussed with Karen previously. How about
adding this as an additional bullet following the "no audio" bullet:

--
Sometimes it is necessary to distinguish written from unwritten content
in the same context. In particular, one is sometimes obliged to indicate
the script for the written content: this can interfere with certain
kinds of matching operation (such as Basic Filtering [RFC 4647]).  The
script subtag 'Zxxx' is RECOMMENDED for indicating unwritten content in
these cases. For example, when selecting resources in Serbian, one might
tag text with "sr-Cyrl" and "sr-Latn", while unwritten content would be
tagged with "sr-Zxxx".

Looks good. Let's do it.

--
>
> 2. The conformance stuff looks good.

Cool.

>
> 3. In 3.1.2, you omitted:
>
> A Prefix MUST not conflict with already registered subtag Prefixes. A
> conflict would occur when when no valid tag could be constructed that
> would contain the prefix, such as when when two subtags each have a
> Prefix that contains the other subtag. For example, suppose that the
> subtag 'avariant' has the prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag
> 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix 'avariant', for that would require a
> tag of the form "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be valid.

That's.... not true. I didn't think it belonged in 3.1.2. It belongs
instead where I put it... in 3.1.7, where you'll find:

--
The field-body of the 'Prefix' field MUST NOT conflict with any 'Prefix'
already registered for a given record. Such a conflict would occur when
when no valid tag could be constructed that would contain the prefix,
such as when when two subtags each have a 'Prefix' that contains the
other subtag. For example, suppose that the subtag 'avariant' has the
prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix
'avariant', for that would require a tag of the form
"es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be valid.
--

My thinking here is that section 3.1.2 defines what the fields are and
mean, but the field-specific sections are where we find the details
about each one.

Sorry, I missed that. Yes, that location and wording is fine.

I should note that I was sorely tempted to edit this part of 3.1.7:

--
The field-body of the 'Prefix' field consists of a language tag whose
subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag.
--

to say instead:

--
The field-body of the 'Prefix' field consists of an extended language
range [RFC 4647] whose subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag.

I like that one, but we should float it by others before changing the text.

--

>
> Without that, there is nothing to prevent impossible prefix combinations.
>
> 4. I'm unhappy about the omissions of changes to the LSR term. Our goal
> should be to have the best possible LSR. If that happens to be the
> current holder, fine, but off the top of my head I can think of several
> much more qualified candidates.

I omitted it because I wanted more time to work on incorporating the
text. In particular, Michael suggested splitting the job (which is more
work than your edits). I wanted to get this set of edits in place first.
I do *not* disagree with the need to look at term, performance, and
assignment rules.

However, I wanted to put all of the generally agreed or "near consensus"
stuff in first to have a copy to fall back on.

ok

>
> 5. We need to have SOME statement on whether the ordering of variants is
> important or not. My suggestion is that it should not be important.
> Since the canonicalization is designed to remove irrelevant differences,
> it should then contain the text.

We disagree here: variant order is always important to matching, even
though it isn't usually that important to tag meaning. Therefore users
need to be aware of the subtag order. I'm on record as favoring
exclusion of future "general purpose" variants to avoid the
canonicalization problem, as well as several suggestions for how we
might address the real problem, which is the recalcitrance of ISO 15924
to register things you and I perceive to be "scripts" (in BCP 47 terms).
I agree with the latter.

I think the exclusion of general purpose variants doesn't solve the ordering problem, but will reply separately.

>
> If it IS important, then we have to clearly state what the difference
> is, and how people are to decide what the order is, and how the poor
> damn'd software developer is to predict what that order is supposed to be.

The order is important. The order that the user puts them in is the
order to use. General purpose variants are the source of the problem and
their elimination would put paid to the issue (language-specific
variants are either mutually exclusive or have Prefix relationships).

see other reply.

Thanks,

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.



--
Mark ------=_Part_214359_25078737.1173318436376-- --===============2048728513== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2048728513==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 21:07:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP82c-0002Kc-VD; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:07:38 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP82c-0002KP-1C for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:07:38 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP82a-0002dd-Ca for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:07:37 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so755152ugd for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:07:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=pM663LKGpdFqAaQPRyyDeomO5HYOWIQMhXuuYRIHoIvXd5D7E8aIAh/24ByiJy+oCTG/jtAPyaODaR8ZRv544lUbPvha6C3U/PYo9n4HjR5dHCLVA48LsEXCHqDIH5G5pqKr6jEMttuujTlYcG7YeR+rtjW9T8K6Y4huTJwWi1E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=Xt1R3sBgHFpONZYfVtUXjUlOug0+e6GfgwdfQku2fVTx3BEXEKKJ3FjZjTdSgHRYSkskW3UgRJD+gkIWLCi7F2C8zfPRANBmURN61VVCqt2YhP0MT8e/wuBcbsFTeNxduPgRirQ7aIse8cTtyJBRyt2L8xnCT7yqXi5EpPsw3nA= Received: by 10.114.46.1 with SMTP id t1mr2463842wat.1173319654338; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:07:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703071807v202b9acdm4e82453e0d226282@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:07:34 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 116e1df99850691c X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1b0e72ff1bbd457ceef31828f216a86 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Ordering of variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2115672621==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2115672621== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_214835_26664107.1173319654309" ------=_Part_214835_26664107.1173319654309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Addison wrote: We disagree here: variant order is always important to matching, even though it isn't usually that important to tag meaning. Therefore users need to be aware of the subtag order. I'm on record as favoring exclusion of future "general purpose" variants to avoid the canonicalization problem, ... The order is important. The order that the user puts them in is the order to use. General purpose variants are the source of the problem and their elimination would put paid to the issue (language-specific variants are either mutually exclusive or have Prefix relationships). I think the exclusion of general purpose variants doesn't solve the problem. Suppose we have Prefix: en Variant: highland ... Prefix: en Variant: suburban A fundamental question that we have to be able to answer when we are defining identifiers is the question of, well, identity. That is, are two tags equivalent or not, and if they are not equivalent, what is the difference in denotion? We decided against making case or ordering of extension sequences significant. So we don't have to explain what any differences mean in terms of denotation. Had we said that case was significant, we would have needed to explain what exactly the difference was. For example, \s vs \S in Perl is different, and the difference can be explained. Or in Java, upper and lowercase are just handled as different letters, so int Int = 3; is valid. But since case is irrelevant for us, we can canonicalize it away and ignore in matching. We have a required order for subtags of language, script, region, variant, so there is no variation there that we have to provide a difference in denotation for. But we just don't have a good story for variants. If I encounter "en-highland-suburban" and a separate tag "en-suburban-highland", I have to be able to determine whether they are the same or different, and if they are different, what is that difference. The same for any en-avariant-bvariant. My view is, like extensions, like casing, it is impossible for us to give a consistent, principled account of what the difference is supposed to be if I rearrange the variant subtags. Given that, I should be able to canonicalize them both to one unique form; I don't care what that form is as long as it is unique. Now, of course, if we have a prefix ordering, then that does impose a meaning to the ordering. So if we had: Prefix: en Variant: highland Prefix: en-highland Variant: alpine Then there is a determinate ordering that we have to have: we have to use en-highland-alpine. If we say that there is a difference in meaning between en-avariant-bvariant and en-bvariant-avariant, but we don't define what that is, then what will happen is that users of the standard will willy-nilly choose one random order or another. And our matching of what they choose will be equally random. That level of indeterminacy does nobody any good. Those who really want en-avariant-bvariant and en-bvariant-avariant to be different, need to step up to the plate and spell out what that difference is supposed to be, otherwise users and developers will just screw up. Mark ------=_Part_214835_26664107.1173319654309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Addison wrote:
We disagree here: variant order is always important to matching, even
though it isn't usually that important to tag meaning. Therefore users
need to be aware of the subtag order. I'm on record as favoring
exclusion of future "general purpose" variants to avoid the
canonicalization problem, ...
The order is important. The order that the user puts them in is the
order to use. General purpose variants are the source of the problem and
their elimination would put paid to the issue (language-specific
variants are either mutually exclusive or have Prefix relationships).

I think the exclusion of general purpose variants doesn't solve the problem. Suppose we have

Prefix: en
Variant: highland
...
Prefix: en
Variant: suburban

A fundamental question that we have to be able to answer when we are defining identifiers is the question of, well, identity. That is, are two tags equivalent or not, and if they are not equivalent, what is the difference in denotion?

We decided against making case or ordering of extension sequences significant. So we don't have to explain what any differences mean in terms of denotation. Had we said that case was significant, we would have needed to explain what exactly the difference was. For example, \s vs \S in Perl is different, and the difference can be explained. Or in Java, upper and lowercase are just handled as different letters, so int Int = 3; is valid. But since case is irrelevant for us, we can canonicalize it away and ignore in matching.

We have a required order for subtags of language, script, region, variant, so there is no variation there that we have to provide a difference in denotation for.

But we just don't have a good story for variants.

If I encounter "en-highland-suburban" and a separate tag "en-suburban-highland", I have to be able to determine whether they are the same or different, and if they are different, what is that difference. The same for any en-avariant-bvariant. My view is, like extensions, like casing, it is impossible for us to give a consistent, principled account of what the difference is supposed to be if I rearrange the variant subtags. Given that, I should be able to canonicalize them both to one unique form; I don't care what that form is as long as it is unique.

Now, of course, if we have a prefix ordering, then that does impose a meaning to the ordering. So if we had:

Prefix: en
Variant: highland

Prefix: en-highland
Variant: alpine

Then there is a determinate ordering that we have to have: we have to use en-highland-alpine.

If we say that there is a difference in meaning between en-avariant-bvariant and en-bvariant-avariant, but we don't define what that is, then what will happen is that users of the standard will willy-nilly choose one random order or another. And our matching of what they choose will be equally random. That level of indeterminacy does nobody any good.

Those who really want en-avariant-bvariant and en-bvariant-avariant to be different, need to step up to the plate and spell out what that difference is supposed to be, otherwise users and developers will just screw up.

Mark
------=_Part_214835_26664107.1173319654309-- --===============2115672621== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2115672621==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 21:27:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8LZ-0000UQ-IG; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:27:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8LY-0000UL-HU for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:27:12 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.172]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8LX-0004qt-0Z for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:27:12 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so759640ugd for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:27:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=oTzhSvIXtZ3Tgd67Vf83mfBOOLyoUaTMnsx4MYW84/HoWsj8DD8KmmZhFV68Cwr8GRjuCHWH3Jt/Mffsl2+zRlR4WQ8CI0dOpDl3czJAIxmVyuZPtXvoWOWn2pgqomy+e//LVWeeWa5gQzFrhDm7pAhZd1DFN6s6plvIHZtmYVk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=f0H2IyQnLl8m9x7mXZrJdYKzdTjByo3iKj1FkpstjfpWMagGofu4/Xmug4zeutcSHBUD45RwkIldJY0BNwr4voUMpNCUh6XpTGKx94WrxEpvEl0yjmXodJcEv7vn4nQa+ZFKMOMmmQLPU/Nk8Dq4wgyU2Dy3HhlarN3wIcanABg= Received: by 10.114.112.1 with SMTP id k1mr2425598wac.1173320829131; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:27:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703071827l432923e5rc10caf9c4b878a19@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:27:09 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 47171fdec5ecdb98 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Reserving subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1593362256==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1593362256== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_215199_30443020.1173320829018" ------=_Part_215199_30443020.1173320829018 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Breaking out the discussion on script vs orthography into a separate thread, I suggest we make the following additions to the ABNF. language = (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag / 2*8alphanum ; others reserved for future use extlangs = *3("-" extlang) ; sequence of extlangs extlang = 3ALPHA ; specific ISO 639-3 codes / ALPHA 2alphanum ; others reserved for future use script = 4ALPHA ; ISO 15924 code / ALPHA 3alphanum ; others are registered scripts or orthographies region = 2ALPHA ; ISO 3166 code / 3DIGIT ; UN M.49 code / ALPHA DIGIT ; others reserved for future use / DIGIT 2alphanum ; others reserved for future use For the scripts, it is to allow us to register major orthographic differences that are orthogonal to country boundaries, and much more important than the variations by country in customary matching. We would put the same caveats in place for these as for language subtags; one has to approach the 15924 JAC first. For the others above, the purpose is to just allow us more flexibility in the future. A nice feature is that first-letter + length indicates the basic type of the tag. Mark ------=_Part_215199_30443020.1173320829018 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Breaking out the discussion on script vs orthography into a separate thread, I suggest we make the following additions to the ABNF.

language      = (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code

              / 4ALPHA                 ; reserved for future use
              / 5*8ALPHA               ; registered language subtag
              / 2*8alphanum            ; 
others reserved for future use

extlangs      = *3("-" extlang)         ; sequence of extlangs

extlang       = 3ALPHA                  ; specific ISO 639-3 codes
              / ALPHA 2alphanum         ; others reserved for future use 


script        = 4ALPHA                 ; ISO 15924 code
              / ALPHA 3alphanum        ; others are registered scripts or orthographies


region        = 2ALPHA                 ; ISO 3166 code
              / 3DIGIT                 ; UN M.49 code

              / ALPHA DIGIT            ; others reserved for future use

              / DIGIT 2alphanum        ; others reserved for future use

For the scripts, it is to allow us to register major orthographic differences that are orthogonal to country boundaries, and much more important than the variations by country in customary matching. We would put the same caveats in place for these as for language subtags; one has to approach the 15924 JAC first.

For the others above, the purpose is to just allow us more flexibility in the future. A nice feature is that first-letter + length indicates the basic type of the tag.

Mark
 ------=_Part_215199_30443020.1173320829018-- --===============1593362256== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1593362256==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 21:27:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8M9-0000ZB-V4; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:27:49 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8M8-0000Z2-Fm for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:27:48 -0500 Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org ([208.145.81.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8M5-000513-Ol for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:27:48 -0500 Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l282RZBA013413 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Mar 2007 21:27:35 -0500 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 172.22.0.51 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Free Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! Received: from [203.154.81.117] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO [192.168.1.101]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTPSA id 138692949; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:27:34 -0500 Message-ID: <45EF7490.9080805@sil.org> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 09:27:28 +0700 From: Martin Hosken User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070103) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp1.wsfo.org id l282RZBA013413 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Mark, As a technical implementor of the standard ;) > 4. Sorry for not responding to Martin H's message last week, but I was > inconvenienced. I think it is an interested approach, but ultimately > is not worth the effort.=20 It's aim was to resolve the: I don't like your alphabetical order since it can result in an order that doesn't reflect the meaning of the tag. What I think I've managed to do with the added complexity and the requirement to DO AWAY WITH FREE VARIANTS AND TURN THEM INTO SCRIPT VARIANTS (which is what they are) is to give a canonical order that also reflects meaning rather than an arbitrary order that is only good for matching. > Our original goal was to have all subtags be in order of importance. > This reflects the fact that most matching implementations will simply > truncate from the end. If that is really true then we are dead in the water. I would suspect that most implementations will compare the whole tag with some truncating it for buffer length reasons. > That is why the script tag is second, not third. Unfortunately, this > model has gotten pretty well screwed up. Given a tag: > > en-CA-fonipa > > and resources for > > en-US-fonipa > en-CA > en > > We will end up matching to the en-CA, which is a really bad match, > since the differences between IPA and the normal orthography > completely swamp the differences based on country code for the vast > majority of users. So even if an orthographic variant is far more > important than the country code variations, it will be discarded > first. The right thing would have been a script/orthographic code like > Fipa corresponding to fonipa. Then we would have had > > en-Fipa-CA > > and resources for > > en-Fipa-US > en-CA > en > > We would get a far better match. By a slavish adherence to a notion of > script that is neither required by 15924 nor consistently adhered to > (Latf), rather than looking at the functional and operational aspects > of codes, we've gotten into a muddle with these. Well a long time ago I did suggest having 4 letter script variants that could go before the region tag, but that would change the hallowed regexp slightly and so I was shouted out of court. But it would have resolved the script interpretation mismatch. > > So what am I saying? It is that the variant ordering is already so > screwed up that it is pointless to waste much time on it. The best we > can to is provide a canonical ordering for variants that is at least > (=CE=B1) consistent with prefixes, and (=CE=B2) unique. That's the basi= s for my > proposal. And I'm happy with it. I'd be happy with anything that means I can create tags in a way that makes them easy to match by non RFC aware interpreters. After all, who is going to add a RFC 4647 capable tag matcher to xpath for example? Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 21:35:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8Tr-0004Eb-Th; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:35:47 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8Tp-000485-Ld for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:35:46 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8To-00060n-3N for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:35:45 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.20] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c20.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l282ZLGR070055 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:35:27 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ml0NSRJDChWfSGW0eThe4UhKUgLLD+QEUphtZUjkW8fFkkwgNNJ8KrdTAwqotSBN Message-ID: <45EF7667.7050105@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:35:19 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis References: <30b660a20703071807v202b9acdm4e82453e0d226282@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703071807v202b9acdm4e82453e0d226282@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Ordering of variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > I think the exclusion of general purpose variants doesn't solve the > problem. Suppose we have > > Prefix: en > Variant: highland > ... > Prefix: en > Variant: suburban The issue is avoided because we have this text: -- Most variants that share a prefix are mutually exclusive. For example, the German orthographic variations '1996' and '1901' SHOULD NOT be used in the same tag, as they represent the dates of different spelling reforms. A variant that can meaningfully be used in combination with another variant SHOULD include a 'Prefix' field in its registry record that lists that other variant. -- That is, 'highland' and 'suburban' are probably mutually exclusive. If one can reasonably be used in combination with another, it'll have that subtag in one of its prefixes. We don't outright forbid the combination, but we frown on it here (and elsewhere). Excepting general purpose variants, there aren't any current non-mutually-exclusive variants. > If I encounter "en-highland-suburban" and a separate tag > "en-suburban-highland", I have to be able to determine whether they are > the same or different, and if they are different, what is that > difference. Besides the likelihood of it being a poor choice, they are (from at least the basic filtering and lookup perspective) different tags. The difference may not have any real world significance, but in one case 'highland' was wider than 'suburban' and in the other, the opposite. > > But we just don't have a good story for variants. The story, basically, is that: in *theory* you can have an arbitrarily long list of variants, each one ever narrower than the previous one. In practice you'll likely see only one or maybe two in exceptional circumstances. In fact, we show this in Figure 7 in Section 4.3.1 (Length Considerations): -- variant1 = 9 (MUST have language as a prefix) variant2 = 9 (MUST have language-variant1 as a prefix) -- That is, the minimum buffer recommendation already makes use of the unlikeliness of useful long variant sequences. If we want to change something to preserve determinacy, we can strengthen the SHOULD in the section on variants to match the MUST in 4.3.1. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 21:38:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8Wh-0007JQ-92; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:38:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8Wg-0007Ip-7U for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:38:42 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8Wd-0006Sy-Th for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:38:42 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HP8Wb-0000LE-2S; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:38:37 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 21:38:37 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Reserving subtags Message-ID: <20070308023837.GF6909@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20703071827l432923e5rc10caf9c4b878a19@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703071827l432923e5rc10caf9c4b878a19@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > I suggest we make the following additions to the ABNF. I think this is a good design in principle, but I continue to register a process objection: the time for changes to the ABNF has passed. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarves. --Murray Gell-Mann _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 07 21:41:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8ZH-0005La-4a; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:41:23 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8ZF-0005KI-S8 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:41:22 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP8ZD-0006lt-5l for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:41:21 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HP8ZB-0000Ww-JM; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:41:17 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 21:41:17 -0500 To: Martin Hosken Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonicalizing variants Message-ID: <20070308024117.GG6909@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001d01c75ed4$c9d07cb0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050921kf896debh2997b2899dcba32f@mail.gmail.com> <45EF7490.9080805@sil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <45EF7490.9080805@sil.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken scripsit: > > Our original goal was to have all subtags be in order of importance. > > This reflects the fact that most matching implementations will simply > > truncate from the end. > > If that is really true then we are dead in the water. I would suspect > that most implementations will compare the whole tag with some > truncating it for buffer length reasons. Not that kind of truncation. The kind meant here is that most matchers will say that foo-bar-baz matches foo-bar but not foo-baz, because foo-bar is a truncation of foo-bar-baz, but foo-baz is not. (Don't draw any conclusions from the fact that foo, bar, and baz are all three letters long here.) -- Hggledy-pggledy / XML programmers John Cowan Try to escape those / I-eighteen-N woes; http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Incontrovertibly / What we need more of is cowan@ccil.org Unicode weenies and / Franois Yergeaus. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 01:52:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCTj-0006NF-8P; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:51:55 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCTf-0006Ko-Pu for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:51:51 -0500 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCTe-0000S9-G3 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:51:51 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070308065146.OHQB6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:51:46 -0500 Message-ID: <002301c7614e$3d5bd3c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 22:51:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > I think I see. What you want is a tag that means "No script", as > 'zxx' means "No language" and '001' means "No region" (worldwide). I > didn't understand that before. > > In that case I think 'Zxxx' serves the purpose. Doug, can you restate > the case against it (other than "Michael says we don't, we don't")? For me at least, it has nothing to do with obedient agreement with Michael. The ISO 15924 table, from which we took the description of "Zxxx" in the Registry, says "Code for unwritten languages," which I consider fundamentally different from "Code for unwritten content." Earlier I used the examples of Svan and Lobedu as examples of truly unwritten languages; they have no commonly accepted written form. Perhaps these languages were poor or hard-to-visualize examples since they don't appear in ISO 639-* or the draft Registry. I admit I don't know what the practical value of "Code for unwritten languages" would be in a script encoding standard, but it may be perfectly obvious to someone else whose application of ISO 15924 differs from ours. In any case, I came to the conclusion on my own that "unwritten language" and "unwritten content" were not the same, and only then did I contact Michael and find that his interpretation was the same. And as it turns out, I don't seem to be representing the consensus view on much of anything lately, here or on ietf-languages, so I won't be surprised if the group decides to use "Zxxx" for this purpose. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 02:03:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCfE-0004nc-VZ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:03:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCfC-0004nM-QM for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:03:46 -0500 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCfB-0002GQ-G0 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:03:46 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070308070344.OTOR6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 02:03:44 -0500 Message-ID: <003001c7614f$e988b630$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:03:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Subject: [Ltru] Re: editor's copy updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > 2. I changed the registry to UTF-8. I realize that Frank still doesn't > love this change, but most all other respondents supported it. I'm fine with it as long as we have a solid assurance that IETF and IANA will accept it, and not throw it back in our face during or after LC. We know, for example, that RFCs may not contain non-ASCII characters, but the Registry contents will be removed from the I-D before it becomes an RFC. Will the IETF allow an I-D to contain non-ASCII characters? -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 02:04:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCfZ-0004t4-7Q; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:04:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCfX-0004qK-Do for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:04:07 -0500 Received: from mailb.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCfU-0002LM-0d for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:04:07 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:04:03 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.72]) with mapi; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:04:02 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:03:57 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Thread-Index: AcdhTlAxEPcMS9KDSrOmDFWhQZv+bgAADukw Message-ID: References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> <002301c7614e$3d5bd3c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <002301c7614e$3d5bd3c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Strictly speaking, your concern seems valid, given the documented semantic. But I'm completely baffled at how the semantic "unwritten languages" is coh= erent in the context of ISO 15924 and also consistent with the way it is be= ing maintained: it's supposed to be a coding for scripts. It's not a coding= of languages. It isn't even a coding of some set of attributes of language= s. If it were a coding for writing-related attributes of languages, then it= would *clearly* be in scope to code written-form variants in ISO 15924. On the other hand, the semantic "non-written content" *would* be coherent a= nd consistent for ISO 15924. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@adelphia.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:52 PM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to = latest draft) John Cowan wrote: > I think I see. What you want is a tag that means "No script", as > 'zxx' means "No language" and '001' means "No region" (worldwide). I > didn't understand that before. > > In that case I think 'Zxxx' serves the purpose. Doug, can you restate > the case against it (other than "Michael says we don't, we don't")? For me at least, it has nothing to do with obedient agreement with Michael. The ISO 15924 table, from which we took the description of "Zxxx" in the Registry, says "Code for unwritten languages," which I consider fundamentally different from "Code for unwritten content." Earlier I used the examples of Svan and Lobedu as examples of truly unwritten languages; they have no commonly accepted written form. Perhaps these languages were poor or hard-to-visualize examples since they don't appear in ISO 639-* or the draft Registry. I admit I don't know what the practical value of "Code for unwritten languages" would be in a script encoding standard, but it may be perfectly obvious to someone else whose application of ISO 15924 differs from ours. In any case, I came to the conclusion on my own that "unwritten language" and "unwritten content" were not the same, and only then did I contact Michael and find that his interpretation was the same. And as it turns out, I don't seem to be representing the consensus view on much of anything lately, here or on ietf-languages, so I won't be surprised if the group decides to use "Zxxx" for this purpose. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 02:27:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPD2C-0006Lm-0Z; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:27:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPD2B-0006Lh-GO for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:27:31 -0500 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPD29-0005lY-KU for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:27:31 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l287RE1h025498 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:27:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 6864_6f9df57a_cd46_11db_8953_0014221fa3c9; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:27:13 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:48416) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:25:49 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070308162352.06bc2b70@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:24:30 +0900 To: Addison Phillips , Mark Davis From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Ordering of variants In-Reply-To: <45EF7667.7050105@yahoo-inc.com> References: <30b660a20703071807v202b9acdm4e82453e0d226282@mail.gmail.com> <45EF7667.7050105@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 11:35 07/03/08, Addison Phillips wrote: >That is, 'highland' and 'suburban' are probably mutually exclusive. If one can reasonably be used in combination with another, it'll have that subtag in one of its prefixes. We don't outright forbid the combination, but we frown on it here (and elsewhere). Excepting general purpose variants, there aren't any current non-mutually-exclusive variants. So what if we have, for example for German, two variants that correspond to something like 'highland' and 'suburban', and these can be freely combined with orthographic variants? Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 02:47:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPDLi-0001ov-6U; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:47:42 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPDLh-0001om-Gp for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:47:41 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPDLg-0000r7-8C for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:47:41 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070308074739.MKBU2196.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 02:47:39 -0500 Message-ID: <00b001c76156$0be97740$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:47:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Subject: [Ltru] Re: editor's copy updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > 5. We need to have SOME statement on whether the ordering of variants > is important or not. My suggestion is that it should not be important. > Since the canonicalization is designed to remove irrelevant > differences, it should then contain the text. > > Any sequence of variant tags MUST be reordered such that for each > variant subtags A and B, A comes before B if > ... I've probably misunderstood this explanation in some way, but just in case I haven't: How does your suggestion that the ordering of variants should not be important square with your proposal to require the tag producer to put variants in a particular order? N.B. I note in passing, while reading Section 4.4, that the passage about mapping "zh-guoyu" to "zh-cmn" in "some future update of this document" needs to be revised, since that time is now; the Registry already has: Type: grandfathered Tag: zh-guoyu Description: Mandarin or Standard Chinese Added: 1999-12-18 Preferred-Value: zh-cmn Deprecated: 2005-07-15 -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 07:15:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPHWD-0007zE-1n; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:14:49 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPHWC-0007wR-4Y for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:14:48 -0500 Received: from mail17.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.216]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPHWA-0004Iq-S9 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:14:48 -0500 Received: (qmail 62713 messnum 5100601 invoked from network[194.125.205.26/ts07-026.dublin.indigo.ie]); 8 Mar 2007 12:14:43 -0000 Received: from ts07-026.dublin.indigo.ie (HELO ?194.125.205.26?) (194.125.205.26) by mail17.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 62713) with SMTP; 8 Mar 2007 12:14:43 -0000 In-Reply-To: <002301c7614e$3d5bd3c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> <002301c7614e$3d5bd3c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1909E3D6-071F-4C6C-9F22-ED29147DB5CB@egt.ie> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marion Gunn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:17:01 +0000 To: LTRU Working Group X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.728) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I rather think that is sidestepping (failing to resolve) Sony's =20 problem, which started this thread re tagging audio content in a =20 language not discernible to the tagger (if I recall correctly, =20 pending confirmation from Karen). On 8 Mar 2007, at 06:51, scr=EDobh Doug Ewell: > ...The ISO 15924 table, from which we took the description of =20 > "Zxxx" in the Registry, says "Code for unwritten languages," which =20 > I consider fundamentally different from "Code for unwritten content." Me, too. Fundamentally. > as it turns out, I don't seem to be representing the consensus view =20= > on much of anything lately, here or on ietf-languages, so I won't =20 > be surprised if the group decides to use "Zxxx" for this purpose. Ditto. mg - - Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 08:27:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPIeY-0003a0-FN; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:27:30 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPIeX-0003Zv-HC for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:27:29 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPIeV-0005R5-Vp for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:27:29 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5EC26C1B3 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:27:27 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25C726C160 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:27:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C06D58EB9B for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:27:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:27:24 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <20070308132724.GA15079@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 995b2e24d23b953c94bac5288c432399 Subject: [Ltru] [Internet-Drafts@ietf.org: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-imapext-i18n-10.txt] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline It seems one of the first "big" uses of RFC 4646 / 4647 so it is interesting to see how LTRU's work is used. --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from maya.nic.fr [192.134.4.160] by batilda.nic.fr with POP3 (fetchmail-6.3.6) for (single-drop); Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:25:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by maya40.nic.fr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id l280Pd5M564727 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:25:39 +0100 (CET) Received: by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) id 2B779A1DB29; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:25:39 +0100 (CET) Delivered-To: bortzmeyer@nic.fr Received: from mx1.nic.fr (mx1.nic.fr [192.134.4.10]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28ABFA1DB21 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:25:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9AE944E0 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:25:39 +0100 (CET) Received: by mx1.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 100) id A769E94469; 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Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Old-From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:50:02 -0500 X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: ietf-imapext@imc.org Old-Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-imapext-i18n-10.txt X-BeenThere: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org List-Id: i-d-announce.ietf.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx1.nic.fr X-UIDL: 9159d66e08a9553f7c89b92115964b45 X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.1.3 Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-imapext-i18n-10.txt From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Received-SPF: on batilda: SPF-pass localhost is always allowed. spfquery: localhost is always allowed. Received-SPF: pass (spfquery: localhost is always allowed.) client-ip=127.0.0.1; envelope-from=; helo=localhost; --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Internet Message Access Protocol Extension Working Group of the IETF. Title : Internet Message Access Protocol Internationalization Author(s) : A. Gulbrandsen, C. Newman Filename : draft-ietf-imapext-i18n-10.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2007-3-7 Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) version 4rev1 has basic support for non-ASCII characters in mailbox names and search substrings. It also supports non-ASCII message headers and content encoded as specified by Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions (MIME). This specification defines a collection of IMAP extensions which improve international support including comparator negotiation for search, sort and thread, language negotiation for international error text, and translations for namespace prefixes. 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7121115.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-imapext-i18n-10.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-imapext-i18n-10.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7121115.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce --NextPart-- --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 10:25:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKU6-0002EO-EN; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:24:50 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKU4-0002Cc-Se for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:24:48 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKU3-0005ND-FZ for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:24:48 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.20] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c20.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l28FObNT078445 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:24:38 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=XswCYaGXTs7S/G3Siqq6NAIc6eZLLFiArD4qV+4UAcSesNvqUQl+DZqjhCxvj9mY Message-ID: <45F02AB2.7080901@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:24:34 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: editor's copy updated... References: <003001c7614f$e988b630$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <003001c7614f$e988b630$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org You could, of course, use (ASCII) escapes in the RFC that get unescaped when the registry itself is created. Addison Doug Ewell wrote: > Addison Phillips wrote: > >> 2. I changed the registry to UTF-8. I realize that Frank still doesn't >> love this change, but most all other respondents supported it. > > I'm fine with it as long as we have a solid assurance that IETF and IANA > will accept it, and not throw it back in our face during or after LC. We > know, for example, that RFCs may not contain non-ASCII characters, but > the Registry contents will be removed from the I-D before it becomes an > RFC. Will the IETF allow an I-D to contain non-ASCII characters? > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 10:28:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKXr-0005X5-M7; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:28:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKXp-0005Ue-TX for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:28:41 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKXo-0005oE-J9 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:28:41 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.20] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c20.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l28FS9j4078672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:28:16 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Unox7UpmFbzCB3APVYJJvb6VeaVKrZDvyxtiFbcfn58CGdQsVXvmhbsP7TNhoKeA Message-ID: <45F02B86.8040009@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:28:06 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Ordering of variants References: <30b660a20703071807v202b9acdm4e82453e0d226282@mail.gmail.com> <45EF7667.7050105@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070308162352.06bc2b70@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070308162352.06bc2b70@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > At 11:35 07/03/08, Addison Phillips wrote: > >> That is, 'highland' and 'suburban' are probably mutually exclusive. If one can reasonably be used in combination with another, it'll have that subtag in one of its prefixes. We don't outright forbid the combination, but we frown on it here (and elsewhere). Excepting general purpose variants, there aren't any current non-mutually-exclusive variants. > > So what if we have, for example for German, two variants that > correspond to something like 'highland' and 'suburban', and these > can be freely combined with orthographic variants? > Then list the orthographic variants among the prefixes. Yes, this is potentially ugly, but there aren't *that* many language variants registered, nor, for any given language, are there likely to be. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 10:29:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKYe-0005wm-2B; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:29:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKYc-0005wh-Ik for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:29:30 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKYb-0005rY-7g for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:29:30 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.20] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c20.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l28FTB2e078734 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:29:17 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KYrUQnDnJiNHTF4tVLW1vfiVRfxvp2uvEmhlbgNNUpqive4QQtCecjOaLNyup1TM Message-ID: <45F02BC4.5060709@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:29:08 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: editor's copy updated... References: <00b001c76156$0be97740$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <00b001c76156$0be97740$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug noticed: > > N.B. I note in passing, while reading Section 4.4, that the passage > about mapping "zh-guoyu" to "zh-cmn" in "some future update of this > document" needs to be revised, since that time is now; the Registry > already has: > > Type: grandfathered > Tag: zh-guoyu > Description: Mandarin or Standard Chinese > Added: 1999-12-18 > Preferred-Value: zh-cmn > Deprecated: 2005-07-15 > Good catch. Thanks. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 10:37:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKg0-0007k6-Qe; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:37:08 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKfz-0007k1-ML for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:37:07 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKfy-0006q2-BH for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:37:07 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.20] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c20.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l28FavD0079178 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:36:58 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FE5z4z9MHkQvnywV8FZUUtotj7A4a5ZrVFK5wiEIT7ff4fBAOsofvaXyIl3Rwqd9 Message-ID: <45F02D98.80306@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:36:56 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marion Gunn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> <002301c7614e$3d5bd3c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <1909E3D6-071F-4C6C-9F22-ED29147DB5CB@egt.ie> In-Reply-To: <1909E3D6-071F-4C6C-9F22-ED29147DB5CB@egt.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Marion Gunn wrote: > I rather think that is sidestepping (failing to resolve) Sony's problem, > which started this thread re tagging audio content in a language not > discernible to the tagger (if I recall correctly, pending confirmation > from Karen). In my opinion, we directly address Karen's concerns with textual changes in my current set of edits. These incorporated quite clear statements about the use of script subtags with audio content, including: -- Script subtags are never appropriate for unwritten content (such as audio recordings). -- and (in an example, hence the non-RFC 2119 use of "should not"): -- # When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged "zh-cmn". -- Mark's suggestions for the use (or co-opting, depending on how one sees it) of 'Zxxx' would serve a different purpose, for which I proposed text last night. I'm curious if the *idea* of such a subtag makes sense to you and others on the list. The actual subtag used for that purpose is a separate matter. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 10:58:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPL0t-0007e0-LP; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:58:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPL0r-0007d2-OO for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:58:41 -0500 Received: from mta15.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPL0f-0002V8-CB for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:58:41 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070308155825.VLUN2405.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:58:25 -0500 Message-ID: <010e01c7619a$9b5b2c90$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <003001c7614f$e988b630$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F02AB2.7080901@yahoo-inc.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: editor's copy updated... Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:58:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > You could, of course, use (ASCII) escapes in the RFC that get > unescaped when the registry itself is created. But then we are relying on IANA to make the conversion. Although IANA has done a far, far better job of updating the Registry in the past year or so, I wonder if this type of character conversion isn't a bit out of their realm. If they can handle it, great. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 11:07:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPL9B-000051-5s; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:07:17 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPL9A-0008Rj-14 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:07:16 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPL96-00044m-Eq for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:07:16 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:07:11 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.72]) with mapi; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:07:11 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:07:10 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: non-written content Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: non-written content Thread-Index: Acdhl6gLBl3v9YX9R+W0n30cpUNbyAAAqEGw Message-ID: References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> <002301c7614e$3d5bd3c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <1909E3D6-071F-4C6C-9F22-ED29147DB5CB@egt.ie> <45F02D98.80306@yahoo-inc.com> In-Reply-To: <45F02D98.80306@yahoo-inc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com] > Mark's suggestions for the use (or co-opting, depending on how one sees > it) of 'Zxxx' would serve a different purpose, for which I proposed text > last night. I'm curious if the *idea* of such a subtag makes sense to > you and others on the list. The actual subtag used for that purpose is a > separate matter. In most scenarios, it should not be necessary to explicitly declare that co= ntent is audio within a language tag. But I have no problem allowing for us= e of a subtag to make the explicit declaration within a language tag in par= ticular applications. We should get the ISO 15924 RA to explain how the current semantic of Zxxx= "non-written language" makes sense in the context of that standard. If the= y have a reasonable rationale, then we should ask for a new script ID, e.g.= Zyyy, to mean "non-written content". If they don't have a reasonable ratio= nale, we can suggest that the semantic of Zxxx should be adjusted to "non-w= ritten content". Either way, we should come to mutual agreement with the ISO 15924 RA on an = ID for "non-written content", and should *not* make arbitrary revisions to = the denotation of IDs in that -- or any -- standard to fit our purposes. If the RA's reviewer objects to creating an ID for "non-written content", t= hen we should submit a complaint to the RA and the RA Joint Advisory Commit= tee. If they object, we should submit a complaint to ISO CS. But I would ho= pe those contingencies remain nothing but that. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 11:15:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLHG-0003Xs-DT; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:15:38 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLHD-0003SC-VI for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:15:35 -0500 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.239]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLHB-0005So-GU for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:15:35 -0500 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 58so926342wri for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:15:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=mm1gCneEdOHNPnQLR9Qo3jaoA+ZKEnxpOTCSph0S+mM5QAGUp6nRM3hMiNzDNs8qQhdOiIdNojnslZ4klUrJ7vVLy7cCUg5EQQuGOS6PglalkKgO05fUTIyOP3gji26cWqObU9VyVRJmoXvSONxDMesLQIgaehAFG48+eHOtvsg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Lm4jUwFkie9QfWb5uvPnKc8D9BFj/X0pz7DjBA27NtpDtW9Qi3AZSMabpNUZZWikBs9KiBvMYf9iUohbAWk7K+IKBq57WwcDZtndyIwOaJhMYTMgddTzTV/aKQg0Hvd19P921hU2sg80PbNEYiLsUjV77YRudJMjACQJ0r6THMw= Received: by 10.115.32.1 with SMTP id k1mr179277waj.1173370532603; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:15:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703080815g3659bdb5h4af25d8e58405168@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:15:32 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: editor's copy updated... In-Reply-To: <00b001c76156$0be97740$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00b001c76156$0be97740$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: ed0a27c291f5bf4a X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1579838877==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1579838877== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_229229_10952823.1173370532547" ------=_Part_229229_10952823.1173370532547 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline They are firmly linked. Maybe that will be clearer if you look at case. It is because we ignore case differences, that we canonicalize to fixed casing. If we didn't ignore case differences, we couldn't and shouldn't change the case in canonicalizing: we couldn't change "En-Us" to "en-US" if "En" meant something different from "en". And because case differences are ignored, canonicalizing should change to a unique case: because "en" and "En" mean the same thing, canonicalizing them should transform them to the same string so that comparisons are binary. Mark On 3/7/07, Doug Ewell wrote: > > Mark Davis wrote: > > > 5. We need to have SOME statement on whether the ordering of variants > > is important or not. My suggestion is that it should not be important. > > Since the canonicalization is designed to remove irrelevant > > differences, it should then contain the text. > > > > Any sequence of variant tags MUST be reordered such that for each > > variant subtags A and B, A comes before B if > > ... > > I've probably misunderstood this explanation in some way, but just in > case I haven't: How does your suggestion that the ordering of variants > should not be important square with your proposal to require the tag > producer to put variants in a particular order? > > N.B. I note in passing, while reading Section 4.4, that the passage > about mapping "zh-guoyu" to "zh-cmn" in "some future update of this > document" needs to be revised, since that time is now; the Registry > already has: > > Type: grandfathered > Tag: zh-guoyu > Description: Mandarin or Standard Chinese > Added: 1999-12-18 > Preferred-Value: zh-cmn > Deprecated: 2005-07-15 > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_229229_10952823.1173370532547 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline They are firmly linked. Maybe that will be clearer if you look at case.

It is because we ignore case differences, that we canonicalize to fixed casing. If we didn't ignore case differences, we couldn't and shouldn't change the case in canonicalizing: we couldn't change "En-Us" to "en-US" if "En" meant something different from "en". And because case differences are ignored, canonicalizing should change to a unique case: because "en" and "En" mean the same thing, canonicalizing them should transform them to the same string so that comparisons are binary.

Mark

On 3/7/07, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net> wrote:
Mark Davis <mark dot davis at icu dash project dot org> wrote:

> 5. We need to have SOME statement on whether the ordering of variants
> is important or not. My suggestion is that it should not be important.
> Since the canonicalization is designed to remove irrelevant
> differences, it should then contain the text.
>
> Any sequence of variant tags MUST be reordered such that for each
> variant subtags A and B, A comes before B if
> ...

I've probably misunderstood this explanation in some way, but just in
case I haven't:  How does your suggestion that the ordering of variants
should not be important square with your proposal to require the tag
producer to put variants in a particular order?

N.B.  I note in passing, while reading Section 4.4, that the passage
about mapping "zh-guoyu" to "zh-cmn" in "some future update of this
document" needs to be revised, since that time is now; the Registry
already has:

Type: grandfathered
Tag: zh-guoyu
Description: Mandarin or Standard Chinese
Added: 1999-12-18
Preferred-Value: zh-cmn
Deprecated: 2005-07-15

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
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--
Mark ------=_Part_229229_10952823.1173370532547-- --===============1579838877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1579838877==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 11:17:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLJ9-0007IF-AU; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:17:35 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLJ8-0007I8-31 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:17:34 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLJ7-0005jQ-Gs for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:17:34 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so959293ugd for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:17:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=dowHG9scxesSm5JZ/tLmdrlpZYzRbHyy6nMZWu6dNQBQIh9+vOR6GzIIzwhw2kxjv3S0ozOOQuWPSV/D5EmMr2dgm9h2ao37c1mgB5I902W5JtzvdpCYiBmUHAFaAO3PMuKu6zWrE6+bqEOr8uMLvt/0xpnIte2rrYn6v9zdUYU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=t7d7jyRPPOr8ou0z/HyOysyM8O0XCZ9AwtgTLR620Hn86Wu3nnvKHDytIzr8f2tMm7FUOYna3y+Hlh5saJrtN9jiQfaN0rxNndGA66jRhIxp18UOeLAYHFAAa4TOyIVj8eXMmf+z6pKBjpItzo8gopacy5UQ/yIGE63uS2FuDJM= Received: by 10.114.39.16 with SMTP id m16mr191244wam.1173370651488; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:17:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:17:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703080817m8fbb66dw925854470657b791@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:17:31 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" In-Reply-To: <45EF7667.7050105@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20703071807v202b9acdm4e82453e0d226282@mail.gmail.com> <45EF7667.7050105@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a369f18326ab460c X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Ordering of variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0766528938==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0766528938== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_229281_4892767.1173370651429" ------=_Part_229281_4892767.1173370651429 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The "we'll never really be faced with this as a practical problem" is a reasonable answer. If we can get a solution for the orthographies, I'm can live with that. Mark On 3/7/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > > I think the exclusion of general purpose variants doesn't solve the > > problem. Suppose we have > > > > Prefix: en > > Variant: highland > > ... > > Prefix: en > > Variant: suburban > > > The issue is avoided because we have this text: > > -- > Most variants that share a prefix are mutually exclusive. For example, > the German orthographic variations '1996' and '1901' SHOULD NOT be used > in the same tag, as they represent the dates of different spelling > reforms. A variant that can meaningfully be used in combination with > another variant SHOULD include a 'Prefix' field in its registry record > that lists that other variant. > -- > > That is, 'highland' and 'suburban' are probably mutually exclusive. If > one can reasonably be used in combination with another, it'll have that > subtag in one of its prefixes. We don't outright forbid the combination, > but we frown on it here (and elsewhere). Excepting general purpose > variants, there aren't any current non-mutually-exclusive variants. > > > If I encounter "en-highland-suburban" and a separate tag > > "en-suburban-highland", I have to be able to determine whether they are > > the same or different, and if they are different, what is that > > difference. > > Besides the likelihood of it being a poor choice, they are (from at > least the basic filtering and lookup perspective) different tags. The > difference may not have any real world significance, but in one case > 'highland' was wider than 'suburban' and in the other, the opposite. > > > > > But we just don't have a good story for variants. > > The story, basically, is that: in *theory* you can have an arbitrarily > long list of variants, each one ever narrower than the previous one. In > practice you'll likely see only one or maybe two in exceptional > circumstances. In fact, we show this in Figure 7 in Section 4.3.1 > (Length Considerations): > > -- > variant1 = 9 (MUST have language as a prefix) > variant2 = 9 (MUST have language-variant1 as a prefix) > -- > > That is, the minimum buffer recommendation already makes use of the > unlikeliness of useful long variant sequences. If we want to change > something to preserve determinacy, we can strengthen the SHOULD in the > section on variants to match the MUST in 4.3.1. > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > -- Mark ------=_Part_229281_4892767.1173370651429 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The "we'll never really be faced with this as a practical problem" is a reasonable answer. If we can get a solution for the orthographies, I'm can live with that.

Mark

On 3/7/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
> I think the exclusion of general purpose variants doesn't solve the
> problem. Suppose we have
>
> Prefix: en
> Variant: highland
> ...
> Prefix: en
> Variant: suburban


The issue is avoided because we have this text:

--
Most variants that share a prefix are mutually exclusive. For example,
the German orthographic variations '1996' and '1901' SHOULD NOT be used
in the same tag, as they represent the dates of different spelling
reforms. A variant that can meaningfully be used in combination with
another variant SHOULD include a 'Prefix' field in its registry record
that lists that other variant.
--

That is, 'highland' and 'suburban' are probably mutually exclusive. If
one can reasonably be used in combination with another, it'll have that
subtag in one of its prefixes. We don't outright forbid the combination,
but we frown on it here (and elsewhere). Excepting general purpose
variants, there aren't any current non-mutually-exclusive variants.

> If I encounter "en-highland-suburban" and a separate tag
> "en-suburban-highland", I have to be able to determine whether they are
> the same or different, and if they are different, what is that
> difference.

Besides the likelihood of it being a poor choice, they are (from at
least the basic filtering and lookup perspective) different tags. The
difference may not have any real world significance, but in one case
'highland' was wider than 'suburban' and in the other, the opposite.

>
> But we just don't have a good story for variants.

The story, basically, is that: in *theory* you can have an arbitrarily
long list of variants, each one ever narrower than the previous one. In
practice you'll likely see only one or maybe two in exceptional
circumstances. In fact, we show this in Figure 7 in Section 4.3.1
(Length Considerations):

--
variant1      =  9 (MUST have language as a prefix)
variant2      =  9 (MUST have language-variant1 as a prefix)
--

That is, the minimum buffer recommendation already makes use of the
unlikeliness of useful long variant sequences. If we want to change
something to preserve determinacy, we can strengthen the SHOULD in the
section on variants to match the MUST in 4.3.1.

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.



--
Mark ------=_Part_229281_4892767.1173370651429-- --===============0766528938== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0766528938==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 11:20:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLLn-0005s7-Br; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:20:19 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLLl-0005hK-V9 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:20:17 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLLk-0006fR-Nv for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:20:17 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HPLLg-0002O9-UL; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:20:12 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:20:12 -0500 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content Message-ID: <20070308162012.GL6909@mercury.ccil.org> References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> <002301c7614e$3d5bd3c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <1909E3D6-071F-4C6C-9F22-ED29147DB5CB@egt.ie> <45F02D98.80306@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45F02D98.80306@yahoo-inc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > Mark's suggestions for the use (or co-opting, depending on how one sees > it) of 'Zxxx' would serve a different purpose, for which I proposed text > last night. I'm curious if the *idea* of such a subtag makes sense to > you and others on the list. The actual subtag used for that purpose is a > separate matter. It definitely makes sense to me. I think we should call it out specially, along with its counterparts 'zxx' and '001', as things useful in certain contexts, but which might otherwise be overlooked. 4.1, where 'und' and 'mul' are explained, is probably the right place. -- "Well, I'm back." --Sam John Cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 11:20:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLLp-0005sG-F3; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:20:21 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLLn-0005sB-UA for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:20:19 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.172]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLLm-0006fS-8Z for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:20:19 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so960204ugd for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:20:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=AR97uEgLQli39TiaLxzUdSmOReQge0IP8ePBcg1TXTfJ+eJLLgUT8NTaMNawSwvD93ACsMHTAUgYKxT6F8RmkO1PEUbc3OOaFquoVncUsc7enTKKdFIBNYPMsYMhd8lrIeNPFw0+V5+frlvUSouaoad7AhA2/vmSYQjI/USNzrI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=b1tDL1rY54jOS+AEdsuzB7eOsH7QT5k3UOa1er7rqCO6HTK3BU7MYCIEFSKBc561KIsN7tcgSymaNJalxnB/C0+40aVVVJDyNyTtDG3s0u7Iz9jpNBj4Qx+JteRbjht0qx7UEZDsykl752wXyc21SulxZajWrJP3WNWLd0mN3WQ= Received: by 10.114.125.2 with SMTP id x2mr179051wac.1173370815107; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:20:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703080820q2e8b342eo52c1af66d44594ea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:20:12 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> <002301c7614e$3d5bd3c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b27229349414b6ab X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0436261559==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0436261559== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_229373_5974334.1173370812653" ------=_Part_229373_5974334.1173370812653 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am as well; I just don't see the the "never written languages" interpretation is at all coherent. Mark On 3/7/07, Peter Constable wrote: > > Strictly speaking, your concern seems valid, given the documented > semantic. > > But I'm completely baffled at how the semantic "unwritten languages" is > coherent in the context of ISO 15924 and also consistent with the way it is > being maintained: it's supposed to be a coding for scripts. It's not a > coding of languages. It isn't even a coding of some set of attributes of > languages. If it were a coding for writing-related attributes of languages, > then it would *clearly* be in scope to code written-form variants in ISO > 15924. > > On the other hand, the semantic "non-written content" *would* be coherent > and consistent for ISO 15924. > > > Peter > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@adelphia.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:52 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to > latest draft) > > John Cowan wrote: > > > I think I see. What you want is a tag that means "No script", as > > 'zxx' means "No language" and '001' means "No region" (worldwide). I > > didn't understand that before. > > > > In that case I think 'Zxxx' serves the purpose. Doug, can you restate > > the case against it (other than "Michael says we don't, we don't")? > > For me at least, it has nothing to do with obedient agreement with > Michael. The ISO 15924 table, from which we took the description of > "Zxxx" in the Registry, says "Code for unwritten languages," which I > consider fundamentally different from "Code for unwritten content." > Earlier I used the examples of Svan and Lobedu as examples of truly > unwritten languages; they have no commonly accepted written form. > Perhaps these languages were poor or hard-to-visualize examples since > they don't appear in ISO 639-* or the draft Registry. > > I admit I don't know what the practical value of "Code for unwritten > languages" would be in a script encoding standard, but it may be > perfectly obvious to someone else whose application of ISO 15924 differs > from ours. > > In any case, I came to the conclusion on my own that "unwritten > language" and "unwritten content" were not the same, and only then did I > contact Michael and find that his interpretation was the same. And as > it turns out, I don't seem to be representing the consensus view on much > of anything lately, here or on ietf-languages, so I won't be surprised > if the group decides to use "Zxxx" for this purpose. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_229373_5974334.1173370812653 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am as well; I just don't see the the "never written languages" interpretation is at all coherent.

Mark

On 3/7/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
Strictly speaking, your concern seems valid, given the documented semantic.

But I'm completely baffled at how the semantic "unwritten languages" is coherent in the context of ISO 15924 and also consistent with the way it is being maintained: it's supposed to be a coding for scripts. It's not a coding of languages. It isn't even a coding of some set of attributes of languages. If it were a coding for writing-related attributes of languages, then it would *clearly* be in scope to code written-form variants in ISO 15924.

On the other hand, the semantic "non-written content" *would* be coherent and consistent for ISO 15924.


Peter



-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Ewell [mailto: dewell@adelphia.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:52 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content (was: Proposals for changes to latest draft)

John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:

> I think I see.  What you want is a tag that means "No script", as
> 'zxx' means "No language" and '001' means "No region" (worldwide). I
> didn't understand that before.
>
> In that case I think 'Zxxx' serves the purpose. Doug, can you restate
> the case against it (other than "Michael says we don't, we don't")?

For me at least, it has nothing to do with obedient agreement with
Michael.  The ISO 15924 table, from which we took the description of
"Zxxx" in the Registry, says "Code for unwritten languages," which I
consider fundamentally different from "Code for unwritten content."
Earlier I used the examples of Svan and Lobedu as examples of truly
unwritten languages; they have no commonly accepted written form.
Perhaps these languages were poor or hard-to-visualize examples since
they don't appear in ISO 639-* or the draft Registry.

I admit I don't know what the practical value of "Code for unwritten
languages" would be in a script encoding standard, but it may be
perfectly obvious to someone else whose application of ISO 15924 differs
from ours.

In any case, I came to the conclusion on my own that "unwritten
language" and "unwritten content" were not the same, and only then did I
contact Michael and find that his interpretation was the same.  And as
it turns out, I don't seem to be representing the consensus view on much
of anything lately, here or on ietf-languages, so I won't be surprised
if the group decides to use "Zxxx" for this purpose.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

_______________________________________________
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Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_229373_5974334.1173370812653-- --===============0436261559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0436261559==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 11:24:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLPv-0002dT-7m; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:24:35 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLPu-0002aL-FF for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:24:34 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLPp-0007Kq-25 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:24:34 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLPn-0001Uv-Rn for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:24:27 +0100 Received: from d253108.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.108]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:24:27 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253108.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:24:27 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:23:05 +0100 Organization: Lines: 45 Message-ID: <45F03869.43FE@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <45EF229F.8020409@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703071638o857f140uc815f5e58d1fc886@mail.gmail.com> <45EF67AB.2080908@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253108.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: editor's copy updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > script subtag 'Zxxx' is RECOMMENDED for indicating unwritten content in > these cases. It's only an OPTION (a.k.a. MAY). --- > The field-body of the 'Prefix' field MUST NOT conflict with any 'Prefix' > already registered for a given record. Such a conflict would occur when > when no valid tag could be constructed that would contain the prefix, > such as when when two subtags each have a 'Prefix' that contains the > other subtag. For example, suppose that the subtag 'avariant' has the > prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix > 'avariant', for that would require a tag of the form > "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be valid. That's IMO too verbose for a "you can't have prefix cycles" example. Quick shot: | The field-body of the 'Prefix' field MUST NOT conflict with any 'Prefix' | already registered for a given record. For example, suppose that the | subtag 'avariant' has a prefix containing subtag 'bvariant', then the | subtag 'bvariant' cannot have a prefix containing subtag 'avariant'. If you're feeling naughty add a reference to "principia mathematica" :-) --- > The field-body of the 'Prefix' field consists of an extended language > range [RFC 4647] whose subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag. Let's not _force_ 4646bis readers to also read RFC 4647. Those cycles again... --- > The order is important. The order that the user puts them in is the > order to use. General purpose variants are the source of the problem > and their elimination would put paid to the issue (language-specific > variants are either mutually exclusive or have Prefix relationships). +1 Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 11:24:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLQ0-0002kl-Bt; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:24:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLPz-0002ke-99 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:24:39 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLPv-0007Kq-SP for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:24:39 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HPL4H-00077J-Jk for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:02:13 +0100 Received: from d253108.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.108]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:02:13 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253108.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:02:13 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:59:12 +0100 Organization: Lines: 16 Message-ID: <45F032D0.7B3A@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <003001c7614f$e988b630$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253108.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: editor's copy updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Will the IETF allow an I-D to contain non-ASCII characters? That would indicate a bug at the IETF Secretariat. But I'm not sure where it's checked, idnits (=> no business for the IETF Secretariat at the moment) or directly on submission. I recall an I-D that was never announced (and it contained some MS Word constructs, either UTF-8 or windows-1252), but I also recall an announced draft with a few UTF-8 char.s. You could simply test it after IETF 68, or ask them before. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 11:42:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLhP-0000D3-UH; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:42:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLhO-0000CY-Oq for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:42:38 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLhN-0001Mu-FE for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:42:38 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLgs-0003zb-Tk for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:42:07 +0100 Received: from d253108.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.108]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:42:06 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253108.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:42:06 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:41:14 +0100 Organization: Lines: 30 Message-ID: <45F03CAA.15@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <004101c75ef8$013fd790$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703050940i6ccdbe4dt3c42094d0943a189@mail.gmail.com> <20070306042709.GK17952@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703060020hcab024bofbbb56089e2b85@mail.gmail.com> <20070306162725.GB30618@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703061305u265d1c26y1e861aea6b2042f8@mail.gmail.com> <20070307191524.GC6909@mercury.ccil.org> <002301c7614e$3d5bd3c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <1909E3D6-071F-4C6C-9F22-ED29147DB5CB@egt.ie> <45F02D98.80306@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253108.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: non-written content X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > I'm curious if the *idea* of such a subtag makes sense to > you and others on the list. The actual subtag used for that > purpose is a separate matter. Not much, and Doug's argument against Zxxx is compelling. You mentioned some text using "never appropriate" for the opposite case (any script subtag for non-written content). I'd prefer a SHOULD NOT, because Karen said it's harmful. BTW, a logical consequence is that abusing Zxxx for other purposes violates this SHOULD NOT. Actually the complete subtag vilates this SHOULD NOT, therefore you've to mention it as exception. Proposed text: - Script subtags are never appropriate for unwritten content - (such as audio recordings). + Most script subtags are never appropriate and SHOULD NOT + be used for unwritten content (such as audio recordings), + with the possible exception of subtags like Zxxx (a code + for unwritten languages). I've not yet read your editor's copy, maybe you have this SHOULD NOT already elsewhere. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 12:00:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLyW-0007vs-2O; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:00:20 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLyM-0007X2-Cl for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:00:10 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLyK-0004Zx-33 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:00:10 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HPLy9-0006Qg-Ml for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:59:57 +0100 Received: from d253108.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.108]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:59:57 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253108.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:59:57 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:58:53 +0100 Organization: Lines: 20 Message-ID: <45F040CD.5364@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <30b660a20703071827l432923e5rc10caf9c4b878a19@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253108.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > Breaking out the discussion on script vs orthography into a separate > thread, I suggest we make the following additions to the ABNF. NAK. E.g. 2*8 alphanum matches 2*8ALPHA, what you really wanted is probably something containing at least one DIGIT _and_ at least one ALPHA. We (TINW, certainly me) want a syntax where looking at a subtag in isolation tells you what it is (if you kept the info "at the begin" vs. "somewhere within a tag"). And we (TINW, certainly me) want the 4646 syntax without substantial changes. Regrouping some well-formed / ill-formed grandfathered tags is one thing, but introducing syntactically new kinds of subtags is another thing, a major change killing _all_ RFC 4646 applications. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 12:15:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMDL-0008CE-NE; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:15:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMDK-0008Bp-GB for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:15:38 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMDH-00076O-Ui for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:15:38 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMD4-000063-Vy for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:15:23 +0100 Received: from d253108.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.108]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:15:22 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253108.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:15:22 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:14:17 +0100 Organization: Lines: 29 Message-ID: <45F04469.7BBC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <30b660a20703071807v202b9acdm4e82453e0d226282@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253108.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Ordering of variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > If I encounter "en-highland-suburban" and a separate tag > "en-suburban-highland", I have to be able to determine whether they > are the same or different, and if they are different, what is that > difference. The difference should be explained in the registration template of the variant registered later. Let's say there is _no_ difference, and "suburban" was registerd after "highland". The "suburban" could offer prefixes "en" and "en-highland" to indicate a preferred order "en-highland-suburban". If "suburban" and "highland" are mutually exclusive (like "1901" and "1996") only the registration template says so, the registry can't... we should really consider links to the original registration template. If the preferred order is "en-suburban-highland", but "suburban" is registered after "highland", then a prefix "en-suburban" added to the old "highland" could indicate this. Finally if both orders are fine meaning different things the template should say so. And we maybe should have a link to the registration template in the registry (?). Or we should have a directory of these registration templates. This affects all variants, all grandfathered tags, and a few modifications like Debbie's comment for UK. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 12:37:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMXr-0005XZ-5O; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:36:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMXq-0005XR-6g for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:36:50 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMXo-0003T9-SD for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:36:50 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMXe-00036S-2r for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:36:38 +0100 Received: from d253108.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.108]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:36:38 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253108.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:36:38 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:34:30 +0100 Organization: Lines: 12 Message-ID: <45F04926.5ADD@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <003001c7614f$e988b630$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F02AB2.7080901@yahoo-inc.com> <010e01c7619a$9b5b2c90$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253108.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: editor's copy updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > I wonder if this type of character conversion isn't a bit out of > their realm. If they can handle it, great. Of course they can, there's a "IANA considerations" section in your I-D, and they check this during or before the IESG evaluation. It also affects registration templates in 4646bis. If this bad idea survives the IETF last call and possible appeals, I hope it doesn't. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 08 12:58:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMt2-0004b3-QB; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:58:44 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMt1-0004aw-7K for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:58:43 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPMsz-00089z-Pv for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:58:43 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HPMsx-0000sX-6q; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:58:39 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:58:39 -0500 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Ordering of variants Message-ID: <20070308175839.GO6909@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20703071807v202b9acdm4e82453e0d226282@mail.gmail.com> <45F04469.7BBC@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45F04469.7BBC@xyzzy.claranet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > The difference should be explained in the registration template of > the variant registered later. Let's say there is _no_ difference, > and "suburban" was registerd after "highland". The "suburban" could > offer prefixes "en" and "en-highland" to indicate a preferred order > "en-highland-suburban". > > If "suburban" and "highland" are mutually exclusive (like "1901" and > "1996") only the registration template says so, the registry can't... > we should really consider links to the original registration template. > > If the preferred order is "en-suburban-highland", but "suburban" is > registered after "highland", then a prefix "en-suburban" added to the > old "highland" could indicate this. +1 to all this. > Finally if both orders are fine meaning different things the template > should say so. And we maybe should have a link to the registration > template in the registry (?). Or we should have a directory of these > registration templates. This affects all variants, all grandfathered > tags, and a few modifications like Debbie's comment for UK. IANA maintains a directory of 1766/3066 registrations, and maybe they should be maintaining one for 4646 registrations too. As things now stand, the references, purpose, and such have to be searched for in the list archives. -- There is no real going back. Though I John Cowan may come to the Shire, it will not seem cowan@ccil.org the same; for I shall not be the same. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest? --Frodo _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 09 04:28:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPbOn-00051g-OB; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 04:28:29 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPZ5z-0004g5-U5 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 02:00:55 -0500 Received: from mta16.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPZ5w-0000Ay-Jv for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 02:00:55 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070309070050.CECL2765.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 02:00:50 -0500 Message-ID: <002001c76218$abc2b570$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:00:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > Breaking out the discussion on script vs orthography into a separate > thread, I suggest we make the following additions to the ABNF. It would be difficult to overstate how strongly opposed I am to this. > language = (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code > / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use > / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag > / 2*8alphanum ; others reserved for future use > extlangs = *3("-" extlang) ; sequence of extlangs > > extlang = 3ALPHA ; specific ISO 639-3 codes > / ALPHA 2alphanum ; others reserved for future > use > > script = 4ALPHA ; ISO 15924 code > / ALPHA 3alphanum ; others are registered scripts > or orthographies > > region = 2ALPHA ; ISO 3166 code > / 3DIGIT ; UN M.49 code > / ALPHA DIGIT ; others reserved for future use > / DIGIT 2alphanum ; others reserved for future use > > For the scripts, it is to allow us to register major orthographic > differences that are orthogonal to country boundaries, and much more > important than the variations by country in customary matching. We > would put the same caveats in place for these as for language subtags; > one has to approach the 15924 JAC first. > > For the others above, the purpose is to just allow us more flexibility > in the future. A nice feature is that first-letter + length indicates > the basic type of the tag. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 09 04:28:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPbPE-0005oN-6t; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 04:28:56 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPZnJ-0001oz-Ej for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 02:45:41 -0500 Received: from outbound-sin.frontbridge.com ([207.46.51.80] helo=outbound4-sin-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPZnE-0007L6-SA for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 02:45:41 -0500 Received: from outbound4-sin.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound4-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2853903747; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:45:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail34-sin-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.252.3]) by outbound4-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9615280063; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:45:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail34-sin (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail34-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5F4E70582; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:45:34 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail34-sin (MessageSwitch) id 1173426333696812_10523; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:45:33 +0000 (UCT) Received: from USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.251.196]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail34-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA7119E0068; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:45:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5) with ESMTP id 2007030823451133-488181 ; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:45:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: <45F02D98.80306@yahoo-inc.com> To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 CCH1 March 07, 2006 From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:43:29 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 03/08/2007 23:43:30, Serialize complete at 03/08/2007 23:43:30, Itemize by SMTP Server on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/08/2007 11:45:11 PM, Serialize by Router on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/08/2007 11:45:33 PM, Serialize complete at 03/08/2007 11:45:33 PM X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a92270ba83d7ead10c5001bb42ec3221 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1598289844==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1598289844== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 002A8D5388257299_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 002A8D5388257299_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" All, The edits Addison details below completely resolve my concerns and are exactly what I requested. I have no personal interest in the unwritten content tag at present, though I am not opposed to it if someone else has some use for it. Thank you, Addison. Karen Broome Addison Phillips 03/08/2007 07:36 AM To Marion Gunn cc LTRU Working Group Subject Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content Marion Gunn wrote: > I rather think that is sidestepping (failing to resolve) Sony's problem, > which started this thread re tagging audio content in a language not > discernible to the tagger (if I recall correctly, pending confirmation > from Karen). In my opinion, we directly address Karen's concerns with textual changes in my current set of edits. These incorporated quite clear statements about the use of script subtags with audio content, including: -- Script subtags are never appropriate for unwritten content (such as audio recordings). -- and (in an example, hence the non-RFC 2119 use of "should not"): -- # When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged "zh-cmn". -- Mark's suggestions for the use (or co-opting, depending on how one sees it) of 'Zxxx' would serve a different purpose, for which I proposed text last night. I'm curious if the *idea* of such a subtag makes sense to you and others on the list. The actual subtag used for that purpose is a separate matter. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_alternative 002A8D5388257299_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
All,

The edits Addison details below completely resolve my concerns and are exactly what I requested. I have no personal interest in the unwritten content tag at present, though I am not opposed to it if someone else has some use for it.

Thank you, Addison.

Karen Broome



Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>

03/08/2007 07:36 AM

To
Marion Gunn <mgunn@egt.ie>
cc
LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] Re: non-written content





Marion Gunn wrote:
> I rather think that is sidestepping (failing to resolve) Sony's problem,
> which started this thread re tagging audio content in a language not
> discernible to the tagger (if I recall correctly, pending confirmation
> from Karen).

In my opinion, we directly address Karen's concerns with textual changes
in my current set of edits. These incorporated quite clear statements
about the use of script subtags with audio content, including:

--
Script subtags are never appropriate for unwritten content (such as
audio recordings).
--

and (in an example, hence the non-RFC 2119 use of "should not"):

--
# When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human
speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is
customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie
might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional script),
but the audio track for the same language would be tagged "zh-cmn".
--

Mark's suggestions for the use (or co-opting, depending on how one sees
it) of 'Zxxx' would serve a different purpose, for which I proposed text
last night. I'm curious if the *idea* of such a subtag makes sense to
you and others on the list. The actual subtag used for that purpose is a
separate matter.

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
--=_alternative 002A8D5388257299_=-- --===============1598289844== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1598289844==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 09 05:26:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPcJF-0006Sw-RH; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 05:26:49 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPcJE-0006Se-76 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 05:26:48 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPcJB-0006wo-91 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 05:26:48 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l299AR92011779 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 18:10:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 31fc_0560972a_ce1e_11db_9485_0014221f2a2d; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:10:26 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:59217) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 18:09:26 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070309174707.09311570@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:48:19 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" , "Doug Ewell" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Proposals for changes to latest draft In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703060008q6171c112qcab5b358c29e3938@mail.gmail.co m> References: <006801c75fbb$59dd0ad0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703060008q6171c112qcab5b358c29e3938@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Indeed bad news. But mistakes are always possible. Changing to sending the whole registry won't make them go away completely. Regards, Martin. At 17:08 07/03/06, Mark Davis wrote: >And that's a bad thing, since if someone picks up a copy of the registry and uses it in their software, glitches get propagated. Witness the infamous (in our circle) 'jw', which resulted from a publication error. > >Mark > >On 3/5/07, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net> wrote: >>John Cowan wrote: >>> Actually not. What the LSR sends to IANA is authoritative; if IANA >>> botches the update, IANA can fix it. >> >>Indeed, this has already happened four times since the Registry went >>live in October 2005. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 09 14:52:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPl85-0005ix-UI; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:51:53 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPl85-0005is-DD for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:51:53 -0500 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPl83-0007uO-Sy for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:51:53 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id k3so1406821ugf for ; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 11:51:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=hss1VSGh8Tv0XOP5vL5hyuoZczDCWwCpp25kGSymb8n3/bLlED8dH5ijIQuoWdSqKaHq5APQGbLJP0cj3hsFYbqXStKVBIL3ugttxT/RZpDhjhNgVaw2LcyexiVCuIhN1gFXP5UQNkPsciRxvIb1iV8x1bbIqdoCiJ4TzWXHI80= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=MjiB7JHfudCsE7jL6wChHXh4ia4SsHgAfoaT+rr3XPQ30VhQXTeX3BjEUTz9ij7TOZTqHAKzbaLq/Mj7yVmZp9EnxSW+1075zBJSfWpUUw4ewGr/NsTlXPbwXPjrkqSZuyTZeex3blZ73/vOmkO0+ywkos83z4BFvZh1s1QqTPE= Received: by 10.114.173.15 with SMTP id v15mr686207wae.1173469904861; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 11:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:51:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703091151s6a77b00cwaabf27fa56ccd24c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:51:44 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Frank Ellermann" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags In-Reply-To: <45F040CD.5364@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20703071827l432923e5rc10caf9c4b878a19@mail.gmail.com> <45F040CD.5364@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Google-Sender-Auth: af38578c1f7d5cb9 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1493332789==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1493332789== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3685_5339725.1173469904755" ------=_Part_3685_5339725.1173469904755 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It doesn't kill them at all; they just won't recognize them as well-formed tags. But they won't recognize any tags that have extlang as valid anyway, so I don't think this is a practical problem. Mark On 3/8/07, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Mark Davis wrote: > > > Breaking out the discussion on script vs orthography into a separate > > thread, I suggest we make the following additions to the ABNF. > > NAK. E.g. 2*8 alphanum matches 2*8ALPHA, what you really wanted is > probably something containing at least one DIGIT _and_ at least one > ALPHA. > > We (TINW, certainly me) want a syntax where looking at a subtag in > isolation tells you what it is (if you kept the info "at the begin" > vs. "somewhere within a tag"). > > And we (TINW, certainly me) want the 4646 syntax without substantial > changes. Regrouping some well-formed / ill-formed grandfathered tags > is one thing, but introducing syntactically new kinds of subtags is > another thing, a major change killing _all_ RFC 4646 applications. > > Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_3685_5339725.1173469904755 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It doesn't kill them at all; they just won't recognize them as well-formed tags. But they won't recognize any tags that have extlang as valid anyway, so I don't think this is a practical problem.

Mark

On 3/8/07, Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> wrote:
Mark Davis wrote:

> Breaking out the discussion on script vs orthography into a separate
> thread, I suggest we make the following additions to the ABNF.

NAK.  E.g. 2*8 alphanum matches 2*8ALPHA, what you really wanted is
probably something containing at least one DIGIT _and_ at least one
ALPHA.

We (TINW, certainly me) want a syntax where looking at a subtag in
isolation tells you what it is (if you kept the info "at the begin"
vs. "somewhere within a tag").

And we (TINW, certainly me) want the 4646 syntax without substantial
changes.  Regrouping some well-formed / ill-formed grandfathered tags
is one thing, but introducing syntactically new kinds of subtags is
another thing, a major change killing _all_ RFC 4646 applications.

Frank



_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_3685_5339725.1173469904755-- --===============1493332789== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1493332789==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 09 15:39:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPlsO-0004Nz-Mb; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:39:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPlsN-0004Nl-3A for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:39:43 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPlsL-0005bW-OQ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:39:43 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l29KdVX1012526 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:39:31 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sLeNRRTDGEI3a9WCHF1qFy9TZ41HpZpaLMmCM4Qz5LdSqWX60P9PDSZw13m7nLZR Message-ID: <45F1C603.50004@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 12:39:31 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags References: <30b660a20703071827l432923e5rc10caf9c4b878a19@mail.gmail.com> <45F040CD.5364@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703091151s6a77b00cwaabf27fa56ccd24c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703091151s6a77b00cwaabf27fa56ccd24c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > It doesn't kill them at all; they just won't recognize them as > well-formed tags. But they won't recognize any tags that have > extlang as > valid anyway, so I don't think this is a practical problem. Well-formed is much more critical than validity checking. Changing the ABNF would break implementations (including at least one of mine) that obey the ABNF somewhat strictly. So I think the ABNF needs to be left alone, even if hindsight would normally suggest otherwise. If we need to co-opt something, we have a couple of places where we can do it without hosing the ABNF: - extlangs: they don't *have* to consist solely of ISO 639-3 codes. In particular, we will have something like 6000 language codes that can never be extlangs and these could be registered to have a different, non-extlangy meaning. For example, 'fon' could be 'phonetic'. - variants: we can reserve a particular variant pattern to occur before (or, perhaps easier to support, after) all other variants. For example, we could say that all variants that start with 'i' are reserved. Note: I do NOT particularly like these ideas. For dealing with the script problems, we really, really ought to talk to ISO 15924. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 10 16:26:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ94B-0005Kn-Vs; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:25:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ94B-0005Hb-1B for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:25:27 -0500 Received: from mta16.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211] helo=mta16.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ949-0003y8-Nc for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:25:27 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070310212522.WWDE2765.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:25:22 -0500 Message-ID: <002901c7635a$9cc76c30$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:25:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Subject: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > If we need to co-opt something, we have a couple of places where we > can do it without hosing the ABNF: > > - extlangs: they don't *have* to consist solely of ISO 639-3 codes. > In particular, we will have something like 6000 language codes that > can never be extlangs and these could be registered to have a > different, non-extlangy meaning. For example, 'fon' could be > 'phonetic'. > > - variants: we can reserve a particular variant pattern to occur > before (or, perhaps easier to support, after) all other variants. For > example, we could say that all variants that start with 'i' are > reserved. What we *really* ought to consider doing is reading the words we (and the IETF) agreed to in RFC 4646, sections 3.4 and 3.6. * If we want a language subtag, and ISO 639-* won't add it to their standard, we register a language subtag. * If we want a region or script subtag, and ISO 3166 or 15924 won't add it to their standard, we register a variant subtag. We talked about this repeatedly over the last few years. We designed variants for exactly this purpose. Why change the rules now? > Note: I do NOT particularly like these ideas. For dealing with the > script problems, we really, really ought to talk to ISO 15924. And if they say no, register a variant. Just like we said. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 10 19:05:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQBZD-0000k5-BG; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:05:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQBZC-0000eI-90 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:05:38 -0500 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.249]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQBZA-0000Xw-S3 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:05:38 -0500 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d30so1104728and for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:05:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=JqRH+XRvqZHcXtlMbTscpaAE47PhnT+ywqKA27slskw4f0OYtJVCCLctzVGBwKVP9ulPqUQiYgGbrGMcy9YaHSKnHNsjNEIoZzIy7HVejPILZOJTaa3WxEHEow2767EaQSkEyJ8SfdqKjU//VRwnjQfkCeHVh/nIvklcZV1kP4g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=s1D4T4XH6/SkuVSD0nVUYj4zS1tyvUWn+z/xTYMJOStM/EF6uoUZoBlywnuY8ks0SXYiMxlwOtJP+wy+17jiWcSI+NS8DlKEknqcjSgrNf5sRFC/7ynGEOzC0VHTd8fU3/9QSMNupTrT12bcu1RmyKVQKjYHfESJIM9F8ji8+NY= Received: by 10.114.112.1 with SMTP id k1mr628931wac.1173571536121; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:05:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:05:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20703101605x442725f8v738bcfc7f922b5ea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:05:36 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags In-Reply-To: <002901c7635a$9cc76c30$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <002901c7635a$9cc76c30$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: ae2cf8806d7ac8ab X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0835839774==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0835839774== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18908_32117083.1173571536088" ------=_Part_18908_32117083.1173571536088 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Because, as I have written MANY times (if you can't find an example, I will repost again), they don't work well with fallback. We didn't anticipate that the script subcommittee would be unresponsive, so we thought that the variants encoded in the script position would not be necessary. Mark On 3/10/07, Doug Ewell wrote: > > Addison Phillips wrote: > > > If we need to co-opt something, we have a couple of places where we > > can do it without hosing the ABNF: > > > > - extlangs: they don't *have* to consist solely of ISO 639-3 codes. > > In particular, we will have something like 6000 language codes that > > can never be extlangs and these could be registered to have a > > different, non-extlangy meaning. For example, 'fon' could be > > 'phonetic'. > > > > - variants: we can reserve a particular variant pattern to occur > > before (or, perhaps easier to support, after) all other variants. For > > example, we could say that all variants that start with 'i' are > > reserved. > > What we *really* ought to consider doing is reading the words we (and > the IETF) agreed to in RFC 4646, sections 3.4 and 3.6. > > * If we want a language subtag, and ISO 639-* won't add it to their > standard, we register a language subtag. > > * If we want a region or script subtag, and ISO 3166 or 15924 won't add > it to their standard, we register a variant subtag. > > We talked about this repeatedly over the last few years. We designed > variants for exactly this purpose. Why change the rules now? > > > Note: I do NOT particularly like these ideas. For dealing with the > > script problems, we really, really ought to talk to ISO 15924. > > And if they say no, register a variant. Just like we said. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_18908_32117083.1173571536088 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Because, as I have written MANY times (if you can't find an example, I will repost again), they don't work well with fallback. We didn't anticipate that the script subcommittee would be unresponsive, so we thought that the variants encoded in the script position would not be necessary.

Mark

On 3/10/07, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net> wrote:
Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

> If we need to co-opt something, we have a couple of places where we
> can do it without hosing the ABNF:
>
>   - extlangs: they don't *have* to consist solely of ISO 639-3 codes.
> In particular, we will have something like 6000 language codes that
> can never be extlangs and these could be registered to have a
> different, non-extlangy meaning. For example, 'fon' could be
> 'phonetic'.
>
>   - variants: we can reserve a particular variant pattern to occur
> before (or, perhaps easier to support, after) all other variants. For
> example, we could say that all variants that start with 'i' are
> reserved.

What we *really* ought to consider doing is reading the words we (and
the IETF) agreed to in RFC 4646, sections 3.4 and 3.6.

* If we want a language subtag, and ISO 639-* won't add it to their
standard, we register a language subtag.

* If we want a region or script subtag, and ISO 3166 or 15924 won't add
it to their standard, we register a variant subtag.

We talked about this repeatedly over the last few years.  We designed
variants for exactly this purpose.  Why change the rules now?

> Note: I do NOT particularly like these ideas. For dealing with the
> script problems, we really, really ought to talk to ISO 15924.

And if they say no, register a variant.  Just like we said.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_18908_32117083.1173571536088-- --===============0835839774== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0835839774==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 10 20:10:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQCa8-0006L4-41; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:10:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQCa5-0006JF-6A for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:10:39 -0500 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQCa3-0008Vd-SU for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:10:37 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070311011035.UVAF6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:10:35 -0500 Message-ID: <007c01c7637a$12ccf390$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <002901c7635a$9cc76c30$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703101605x442725f8v738bcfc7f922b5ea@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:10:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: >> We talked about this repeatedly over the last few years. We designed >> variants for exactly this purpose. Why change the rules now? > > Because, as I have written MANY times (if you can't find an example, I > will repost again), they don't work well with fallback. "Fallback" in this case refers to "basic filtering" as defined in RFC 4647, which is little more than the remove-from-right approach described in RFC 3066. As I have written at least once before, if not MANY times: if we are going to assume that implementations will use only basic filtering, and are going to tailor registrations and rules around that assumption, we should not have bothered writing RFC 4647 in the first place. We could have simply said "Use RFR and cross your fingers" and been done with it. We could have saved almost a year getting RFC 4646 and 4645 published if we hadn't had to wait for 4647. > We didn't anticipate that the script subcommittee would be > unresponsive, I'd prefer "unwilling to register IPA as a script" as more NPOV. That's really what this is about; few other quasi-scripts have been discussed. > so we thought that the variants encoded in the script position would > not be necessary. Then we should not have written Section 3.4, item 10.C, and Section 3.6, bullet point 2, if we did not feel they would be necessary and did intend to honor them in the event they were. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 11 14:20:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQSe9-0003Zu-Ut; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:19:53 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQSe9-0003Zp-1a for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:19:53 -0400 Received: from mta16.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211] helo=mta16.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQSe6-0005SE-NV for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:19:53 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070311181948.LIQY2765.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:19:48 -0400 Message-ID: <00be01c76409$da85bef0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:19:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I wrote: > Then we should not have written Section 3.4, item 10.C, and Section > 3.6, bullet point 2, if we did not feel they would be necessary and > did intend to honor them in the event they were. Recte: ... if we did *not* intend to honor them... -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 11 17:44:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQVpn-0002gm-FJ; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:44:07 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQVpm-0002ge-GD for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:44:06 -0400 Received: from mta15.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQVpl-0007pO-5i for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:44:06 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070311214404.JDWF2405.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:44:04 -0400 Message-ID: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:44:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Subject: [Ltru] How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org If we decide to change the Registry format from hex NCRs to UTF-8, how should non-ASCII characters be represented in RFC 4645bis? Definitive answers only, please; no speculation. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 11 19:09:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQX9l-0002UQ-B3; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:08:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQX9k-0002UJ-Gz for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:08:48 -0400 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.245]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQX9j-0008CT-40 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:08:48 -0400 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d30so1247486and for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:08:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=hUzqyrSECizGDm3M6K+fVXaykRywHNXhGOdoI1t9GUwxR7DEEAE/oY9Qfmspa/0eqRXOBLxmQQCd4zmK9QOb0lqphcHdJeTFTtWBgi7ypMJOkJc0gSiuPUi4Arcre1LMXaCpVfmQ9jBHevt31etqIksMScnzxUOL1s/nfUGy6BI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ZHnd3GgW8ppDU+OA5IwN6w31thqmAtpGitOAlTEK8KCn4BWGNG5cdEMT1hxbOHNlp+qGwuZTtP/WUdesFO8v+NVyP5EdPxEUvpHP7ZpI9PJfX8oeCLRmxuvX5wmDnXrWQilWvyDMxxGMYFboNowLO0zMMKwB4BEXHcA7H/02EPg= Received: by 10.115.46.9 with SMTP id y9mr1045634waj.1173654524387; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703111608q39a8709ek57d187cb603ce7c0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:08:44 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags In-Reply-To: <00be01c76409$da85bef0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00be01c76409$da85bef0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3a3b713a45d2db3a X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2080714990==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2080714990== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30689_19098221.1173654524327" ------=_Part_30689_19098221.1173654524327 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The position of the elements in the language tag is very important. We discussed long and hard about the need for the script subtag to go before the region subtag, and established that for very good reasons. It is not a trivial matter. And the same goes for major orthographic differences. That being said, I have a possible solution, one that does not change well-formedness. We add the ability to registry orthographic subtags in the range Qaba..Qabx. (This is a perfectly legitimate thing for us to do.) The text would state that such registration is limited, and is only for major orthographic differences in languages that are not associated with any particular country. We would only have a small number of these, so we'd have to use them wisely; we'd need to use variants on top of those to express differences within those othographic subtags, but they would not Example: We could then register Qabp as a code for Phonetic Transcriptions, and could then have: en-Qabp-US-FONIPA, and en-Qabp-US-FONUPA While not perfect, this might be a way out, one that doesn't leave us with a broken system for major orthographies, and also doesn't disturb well-formedness. Mark On 3/11/07, Doug Ewell wrote: > > I wrote: > > > Then we should not have written Section 3.4, item 10.C, and Section > > 3.6, bullet point 2, if we did not feel they would be necessary and > > did intend to honor them in the event they were. > > Recte: ... if we did *not* intend to honor them... > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_30689_19098221.1173654524327 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The position of the elements in the language tag is very important. We discussed long and hard about the need for the script subtag to go before the region subtag, and established that for very good reasons. It is not a trivial matter. And the same goes for major orthographic differences.

That being said, I have a possible solution, one that does not change well-formedness.

We add the ability to registry orthographic subtags in the range Qaba..Qabx. (This is a perfectly legitimate thing for us to do.) The text would state that such registration is limited, and is only for major orthographic differences in languages that are not associated with any particular country. We would only have a small number of these, so we'd have to use them wisely; we'd need to use variants on top of those to express differences within those othographic subtags, but they would not

Example: We could then register Qabp as a code for Phonetic Transcriptions, and could then have:

en-Qabp-US-FONIPA, and
en-Qabp-US-FONUPA

While not perfect, this might be a way out, one that doesn't leave us with a broken system for major orthographies, and also doesn't disturb well-formedness.

Mark

On 3/11/07, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net> wrote:
I wrote:

> Then we should not have written Section 3.4, item 10.C, and Section
> 3.6, bullet point 2, if we did not feel they would be necessary and
> did intend to honor them in the event they were.

Recte: ... if we did *not* intend to honor them...

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_30689_19098221.1173654524327-- --===============2080714990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2080714990==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 00:17:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQbyT-0007pS-D4; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 00:17:29 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQbyS-0007o3-4h for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 00:17:28 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQbyQ-0000FX-M3 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 00:17:28 -0400 Received: from [10.72.77.120] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c120.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.120]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2C4APml045582 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Mar 2007 20:10:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JbQKuuGl+YNQe/f0Nkl12SRWhDf9k5lwAmm4SwBkPDWkFEiklccyqUze8j9IBO0n Message-ID: <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:10:25 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Definitive answer: In the format specified in the "IANA Considerations" section of RFC 4645bis. [That is: you get to say how the characters are escaped.] Supporting speculation: Use the \u#### or %## format (where # == hex digit). The former would be in UTF-16 code units. The latter would be in UTF-8 code units (aka "bytes" or "octets"). Either of these can be unescaped into UTF-8 quite easily. I would tend to suggest the \u format, since the widely available JDK tool 'native2ascii' knows it, as does perl (after 5.8). Addison Doug Ewell wrote: > If we decide to change the Registry format from hex NCRs to UTF-8, how > should non-ASCII characters be represented in RFC 4645bis? Definitive > answers only, please; no speculation. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 03:33:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQf1p-0000SN-AH; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 03:33:09 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQf1n-0000SI-EX for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 03:33:07 -0400 Received: from mta16.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211] helo=mta16.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQf1m-0006Wn-56 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 03:33:07 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070312073305.NCG2765.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 03:33:05 -0400 Message-ID: <001d01c76478$abef0550$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 00:33:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > In the format specified in the "IANA Considerations" section of RFC > 4645bis. [That is: you get to say how the characters are escaped.] Yes, and thank you, but (a) what if anything does the WG prefer to see, and (b) what do we have the best chance of IANA converting correctly? (Possible answers below.) > Use the \u#### or %## format (where # == hex digit). The former would > be in UTF-16 code units. The latter would be in UTF-8 code units (aka > "bytes" or "octets"). Either of these can be unescaped into UTF-8 > quite easily. I would tend to suggest the \u format, since the widely > available JDK tool 'native2ascii' knows it, as does perl (after 5.8). I'll buy that. It does make me wonder, of course, why we chose å instead of \u00E5 if the latter is so much easier to parse. (Notice the number of bytes in each representation is the same.) If anyone objects to my using \u#### notation in 4645bis, with instructions to IANA to convert such sequences into real UTF-8, please speak up. As soon as Addison submits a new 4646bis draft, mine will follow close behind. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 04:56:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQgKT-0001Bk-P7; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 04:56:29 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQgKQ-0001BO-6m for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 04:56:28 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQgKO-0003jh-Tq for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 04:56:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 242CC26C25F; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:55:54 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DEF626C1F1; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:55:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B24658ED28; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:55:53 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:55:53 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Addison Phillips Message-ID: <20070312085553.GA26673@nic.fr> References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, Mar 11, 2007 at 09:10:25PM -0700, Addison Phillips wrote a message of 44 lines which said: > Use the \u#### or %## format (where # == hex digit). The former would be > in UTF-16 code units. The latter would be in UTF-8 code units (aka > "bytes" or "octets"). Strongly -1 for me 1) If we use an espace mechanism, it should be to code points, which are a high-level concept, not to code units, which depends on the encoding. Apart from URI percent-escape, no standard use escape mechanisms to encode an encoding! If we persist in the mistake of URI percent-escape, at least we should rely on UTF-8, not on the UTF-16 horror with its surrogates. 2) If we use an escape mechanism, it should be with explicit delimiters like \u(NNNN) because it is unambiguous and easy to parse. But I suggest to defer this until draft-klensin-unicode-escapes-03 becomes approved (these questions are NOT LTRU-specific and are currently discussed in the Application Area). _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 08:22:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQjXR-0001kb-Gj; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:22:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQjXP-0001dw-DX for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:22:03 -0400 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQjXM-0004f6-10 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:22:03 -0400 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 05:21:59 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 05:21:58 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 05:21:55 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? Thread-Index: AcdkeLL4zfSUqISLRJmMDaHX25SUyQAKBmQg Message-ID: References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> <001d01c76478$abef0550$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <001d01c76478$abef0550$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I prefer to see whatever IANA has the best chance of converting correctly. = Have they been asked what that might be? Peter -----Original Message----- From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@adelphia.net] Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:33 AM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? Addison Phillips wrote: > In the format specified in the "IANA Considerations" section of RFC > 4645bis. [That is: you get to say how the characters are escaped.] Yes, and thank you, but (a) what if anything does the WG prefer to see, and (b) what do we have the best chance of IANA converting correctly? (Possible answers below.) > Use the \u#### or %## format (where # =3D=3D hex digit). The former would > be in UTF-16 code units. The latter would be in UTF-8 code units (aka > "bytes" or "octets"). Either of these can be unescaped into UTF-8 > quite easily. I would tend to suggest the \u format, since the widely > available JDK tool 'native2ascii' knows it, as does perl (after 5.8). I'll buy that. It does make me wonder, of course, why we chose å instead of \u00E5 if the latter is so much easier to parse. (Notice the number of bytes in each representation is the same.) If anyone objects to my using \u#### notation in 4645bis, with instructions to IANA to convert such sequences into real UTF-8, please speak up. As soon as Addison submits a new 4646bis draft, mine will follow close behind. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 09:00:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQk8f-0006cb-0K; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:00:33 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQk8e-0006cR-6r for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:00:32 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQk8c-0003rr-UH for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:00:32 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5189926C173; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:00:11 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17CD26C279; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:00:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9367158ED15; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:00:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:00:10 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: David Conrad - IANA General Manager Message-ID: <20070312130010.GA16886@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] IANA, UTF-8 and the Language Subtag Registry X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hello, The IETF Working Group LTRU, working on RFC 4646bis and 4545bis, would like to ping IANA about the issue of character encodings for the registry. There is a plan to move the registry to raw UTF-8 (currently, non-ASCII characters are escaped in the XML/HTML way). If such a plan is adopted, there is a discussion on how to escape non-ASCII characters in publications like the Internet-Drafts (reminder: there is a discussion at IETF over draft-klensin-unicode-escapes-03). What are the opinions of IANA about it? Can you receive and handle UTF-8 properly? Can you convert easily between &#xNNN; or \uNNNN and UTF-8? Any preferences? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 09:40:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQkkz-0003Ij-9b; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:40:09 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQkky-0003IE-EX for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:40:08 -0400 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQkkw-0004h6-3s for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:40:08 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070312134003.UPVG6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:40:03 -0400 Message-ID: <002e01c764ab$efa59560$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81><45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> <001d01c76478$abef0550$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Subject: Re: [Ltru] How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 06:40:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > I prefer to see whatever IANA has the best chance of converting > correctly. Have they been asked what that might be? That is a good point, and I suspect nobody has asked them yet. I'll do so. Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > 1) If we use an espace mechanism, it should be to code points, which > are a high-level concept, not to code units, which depends on the > encoding. Apart from URI percent-escape, no standard use escape > mechanisms to encode an encoding! I'll check with Amanda. > If we persist in the mistake of URI percent-escape, at least we should > rely on UTF-8, not on the UTF-16 horror with its surrogates. UTF-16 surrogates are not an issue for us, since the Registry doesn't currently contain any characters outside the BMP. However, the word "currently" raises new questions for me. What format should be used when requesting new subtags, and what format should be used for sending updates to IANA? (If we go with the proposal to send them a complete new Registry each time, the second question is already answered.) > 2) If we use an escape mechanism, it should be with explicit > delimiters like \u(NNNN) because it is unambiguous and easy to parse. \uNNNN is unambiguous: there are exactly four hex digits after the "u". To represent a character outside the BMP, one must either encode the surrogates as \uNNNN\uNNNN, or use \UNNNNNNNN with exactly eight hex digits. Either one is unambiguous. > But I suggest to defer this until draft-klensin-unicode-escapes-03 > becomes approved (these questions are NOT LTRU-specific and are > currently discussed in the Application Area). I hope that draft is at a late enough stage, and close enough to approval, that waiting for it does not delay us substantially. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 09:45:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQkpe-00064b-TY; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:44:58 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQkpd-00064W-Rr for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:44:57 -0400 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQkpP-0005u4-7Q for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:44:57 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070312134442.UTZO6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:44:42 -0400 Message-ID: <003d01c764ac$96261860$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Subject: Re: [Ltru] How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 06:44:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I wrote: > That is a good point, and I suspect nobody has asked them yet. I'll > do so. Or maybe not, since Stephane has already asked, as I now see. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 10:29:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQlWy-0005PZ-3j; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:29:44 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQlWx-0005PU-R2 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:29:43 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQlWw-0000c2-Ik for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:29:43 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HQlWx-0007PO-1n; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:29:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:29:43 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? Message-ID: <20070312142942.GE6359@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001d01c76478$abef0550$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <002e01c764ab$efa59560$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002e01c764ab$efa59560$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > >But I suggest to defer this until draft-klensin-unicode-escapes-03 > >becomes approved (these questions are NOT LTRU-specific and are > >currently discussed in the Application Area). > > I hope that draft is at a late enough stage, and close enough to > approval, that waiting for it does not delay us substantially. I can't speak to process concerns, but here's a summary of the draft's recommendations (it contains no MUSTs except that each protocol MUST define the escape syntax it uses). 1) Protocols SHOULD use UTF-8 rather than an escape convention, but if UTF-8 is not practical, then: 2) Protocols SHOULD encode codepoints, not the UTF-8 or UTF-16 versions of them, and SHOULD do so in hex, not decimal or octal; 3) The XML style we currently use, the C style (with "\unnnn" and "\Unnnnnnnn"), and the Perl style (with "\u{nnnn...}") all have their good and bad points, and they should always be considered. The draft is at pains to call the XML style ugly, though why it thinks so does not appear; the C style lacks a closing delimiter and is readily confused with the Java convention (which is called out with a SHOULD NOT) and other conventions involving \u. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Big as a house, much bigger than a house, it looked to [Sam], a grey-clad moving hill. Fear and wonder, maybe, enlarged him in the hobbit's eyes, but the Mumak of Harad was indeed a beast of vast bulk, and the like of him does not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live still in latter days are but memories of his girth and his majesty. --"Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit" _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 11:20:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmKO-0000PN-FR; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:20:48 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmKO-0000PG-5G for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:20:48 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmKH-0003dQ-IS for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:20:48 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmJg-0007Cw-Tp for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:20:04 +0100 Received: from d252136.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.136]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:20:04 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252136.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:20:04 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:18:49 +0100 Organization: Lines: 19 Message-ID: <45F56F59.120E@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> <20070312085553.GA26673@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252136.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > I suggest to defer this until draft-klensin-unicode-escapes-03 > becomes approved It's a one time thing for the 4645bis I-D, Doug can use one of the formats in I-D.klensin-unicode-escapes-03 without approval, an informative reference to an I-D is okay. As it happens one of the formats in this I-D is the existing 4646 format (after fixing the 4646 ABNF), therefore he can use this format. If IANA needs a script to "unescape" this once they could "hire" one of us... :-) Really, it's no rocket science. And maybe the whole mad plan doesn't survive the IETF Last Call. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 11:32:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmVB-0004R0-T2; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:31:58 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmVA-0004OB-Bo for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:31:56 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmV8-0005bC-Dy for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:31:56 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmUk-0001IR-5n for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:31:30 +0100 Received: from d252136.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.136]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:31:30 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252136.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:31:30 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:30:22 +0100 Organization: Lines: 29 Message-ID: <45F5720E.5BC4@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> <001d01c76478$abef0550$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252136.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > (a) hat if anything does the WG prefer to see, I prefer the existing 4646 format, because that's how I check the registries in your I-Ds. > (b) what do we have the best chance of IANA converting correctly? They can do anything, a trivial script can convert 4646 format to Unicode. A Web browser might do, adding at the begin a dummy line 4646 format 

...and a dummy line
at the end, and "save as text file". Somebody using IE7 and Office could work out the details. > It does make me wonder, of course, why we chose å instead of > \u00E5 if the latter is so much easier to parse. It isn't easier, it's also trivial (at least without surrogates). > As soon as Addison submits a new 4646bis draft, mine will follow > close behind. I'd guess that there will be no new drafts in the next twelve days. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 11:45:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmiA-0002DV-Ea; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:45:22 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmi9-0002A6-4j for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:45:21 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmi7-0000UY-S3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:45:21 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HQme5-0003pM-2g for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:41:09 +0100 Received: from d252136.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.136]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:41:09 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252136.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:41:09 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:37:40 +0100 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: <45F573C4.71FE@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <001d01c76478$abef0550$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <002e01c764ab$efa59560$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20070312142942.GE6359@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252136.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > The draft is at pains to call the XML style ugly, though why it > thinks so does not appear Editorial choice, I tried to talk John out of it, but he really doesn't like XML style, while I don't like C style variations :-) Perl style had the least opponents, but for a _one time_ 4645bis I'd really prefer to stick to the known 4646 format working with my gawk script. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 12:03:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmzt-0002MQ-Ju; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:03:41 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmzs-0002Jb-Jv for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:03:40 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmzr-0003He-9z for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:03:40 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HQmzl-00087f-Tf for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:03:33 +0100 Received: from d252136.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.136]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:03:33 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252136.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:03:33 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:02:51 +0100 Organization: Lines: 41 Message-ID: <45F579AB.3D67@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00be01c76409$da85bef0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703111608q39a8709ek57d187cb603ce7c0@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252136.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > We add the ability to registry orthographic subtags in the range > Qaba..Qabx. (This is a perfectly legitimate thing for us to do.) My copy of the subtag registry contains... %% Type: script Subtag: Qaaa..Qabx Description: PRIVATE USE Added: 2005-10-16 %% ...reserving these codes for private use. In other words there can be 4646 tags using these codes, the property "private use" is stable forever. Please drop this plan: [4646 ch. 2.2.3 point 3] | The script subtags 'Qaaa' through 'Qabx' are reserved for private | use in language tags. These subtags correspond to codes reserved | by ISO 15924 for private use. These codes MAY be used for non- | registered script values. Please refer to Section 4.5 for more | information on private use subtags. [4646 ch. 4.5] | Private use subtags have no meaning outside the private agreement | between the parties that intend to use or exchange language tags | that employ them. The same subtags MAY be used with a different | meaning under a separate private agreement. [...] | Private use subtags are simply useless for information exchange | without prior arrangement. The value and semantic meaning of | private use tags and of the subtags used within such a language | tag are not defined by this document. It's totally illegitimate for us to change this. Even 15924 can't change the RFC 4646 registration of Qaaa .. Qabx. Stable forever. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 13:10:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQo2B-0003I3-Bf; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:10:07 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQo2A-0003Hx-1O for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:10:06 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQo26-0003Gm-ML for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:10:06 -0400 Received: from [10.72.77.120] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c120.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.120]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2CH9uic080478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:09:57 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject: content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fQjyPRCeibNJMn/h/aTzY+SgMb6QwaEy8AiX50JcmWQAbRQv/upJbG5rNRLRC/Se Message-ID: <45F58964.3020408@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:09:56 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'LTRU Working Group'" , Peter Constable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Language Collections text... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org In Section 4.1, we have this text: -- Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple related languages. For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages". The registry contains values for the specific languages represented by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy' (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for their inclusion in the collection. -- Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone else) suggest an appropriate example to use here? Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 13:10:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQo2u-0003ii-Tl; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:10:52 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQo2u-0003gp-1R for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:10:52 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQo2s-0003Lv-4d for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:10:52 -0400 Received: from [10.72.77.120] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c120.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.120]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2CHAlWR080594 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:10:48 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fOpInFOwF9O11nNviOGjmcfhV61Y0rMt+CgaUOTryHsQdgQHqmaUI5yCa/A7dx07 Message-ID: <45F58997.5000103@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:10:47 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags References: <00be01c76409$da85bef0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703111608q39a8709ek57d187cb603ce7c0@mail.gmail.com> <45F579AB.3D67@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <45F579AB.3D67@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com id l2CHAlWR080594 X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org +1 I think that suggesting the co=C3=B6pted use of Zxxx is preferable. Addison Frank Ellermann wrote: > Mark Davis wrote: > =20 >> We add the ability to registry orthographic subtags in the range >> Qaba..Qabx. (This is a perfectly legitimate thing for us to do.) >=20 > My copy of the subtag registry contains... >=20 > %% > Type: script > Subtag: Qaaa..Qabx > Description: PRIVATE USE > Added: 2005-10-16 > %% >=20 > ...reserving these codes for private use. In other words there=20 > can be 4646 tags using these codes, the property "private use" is > stable forever. Please drop this plan: >=20 > [4646 ch. 2.2.3 point 3] > | The script subtags 'Qaaa' through 'Qabx' are reserved for private > | use in language tags. These subtags correspond to codes reserved > | by ISO 15924 for private use. These codes MAY be used for non- > | registered script values. Please refer to Section 4.5 for more > | information on private use subtags. >=20 > [4646 ch. 4.5] > | Private use subtags have no meaning outside the private agreement > | between the parties that intend to use or exchange language tags > | that employ them. The same subtags MAY be used with a different > | meaning under a separate private agreement. > [...] > | Private use subtags are simply useless for information exchange > | without prior arrangement. The value and semantic meaning of > | private use tags and of the subtags used within such a language > | tag are not defined by this document. >=20 > It's totally illegitimate for us to change this. Even 15924 can't > change the RFC 4646 registration of Qaaa .. Qabx. Stable forever. >=20 > Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 13:23:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoEw-0008U3-KW; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:23:18 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoEv-0008Ty-DV for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:23:17 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoEq-0005Nl-1B for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:23:17 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoEf-00040r-NY for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:23:01 +0100 Received: from d252136.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.136]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:23:01 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252136.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:23:01 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:22:23 +0100 Organization: Lines: 15 Message-ID: <45F58C4F.6CE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00be01c76409$da85bef0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703111608q39a8709ek57d187cb603ce7c0@mail.gmail.com> <45F579AB.3D67@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45F58997.5000103@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252136.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > I think that suggesting the co=F6pted use of Zxxx is preferable. Doug + Marion said "not as is", Peter said "they could allow to use it for 'non-written' in addition to 'has no script'". Did anybody submit (or whatever the proper ISO terminology is) a Zxxx modification request ? Karen said she doesn't need any 'non-written' pseudo-script, it is IMO unnecessary that 4646bis tries to explain what Zxxx is, let alone inventing its own peculiar interpretation. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 13:39:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoUC-0000s2-Ew; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:39:04 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoUB-0000rs-EO for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:39:03 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoU5-0007wv-Mq for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:39:03 -0400 Received: from [10.72.77.120] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c120.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.120]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2CHcsI3083243 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:38:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JOHfLsLvoQwq08xtsmk6kgCTt4emRNguxjFOYzLIL0aBTmlYjJR9x7Mc8jL+WsxQ Message-ID: <45F5902E.7020605@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:38:54 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags References: <00be01c76409$da85bef0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703111608q39a8709ek57d187cb603ce7c0@mail.gmail.com> <45F579AB.3D67@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45F58997.5000103@yahoo-inc.com> <45F58C4F.6CE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <45F58C4F.6CE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com id l2CHcsI3083243 X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >=20 >> I think that suggesting the co=C3=B6pted use of Zxxx is preferable. Note the use of "preferable" to "desirable" or "necessary". >=20 > Karen said she doesn't need any 'non-written' pseudo-script, it > is IMO unnecessary that 4646bis tries to explain what Zxxx is, > let alone inventing its own peculiar interpretation. >=20 Yes, but Mark has stated several times that he (and presumably some=20 other folks forming his "we") needs it. Personally, I would recommend against using the subtag and am not sure=20 what Mark's use case consists of and whether I would agree with it.=20 However, as long as it does no harm, I don't see how some additional=20 MAYs in the text would be so awful. Addison --=20 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 13:44:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoZj-0005xC-UC; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:44:47 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoZi-0005wH-Db for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:44:46 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoZ0-0000jA-5C for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:44:46 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoYm-0007Ts-7W for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:43:48 +0100 Received: from d252136.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.136]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:43:48 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252136.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:43:48 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:43:02 +0100 Organization: Lines: 18 Message-ID: <45F59126.248@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <45F58964.3020408@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252136.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages". >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy' >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for >| their inclusion in the collection. > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here? aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this endless list. Some collections like "apa" are apparently related, if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 13:58:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQomb-0001bk-Se; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:58:05 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQoma-0001ba-TC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:58:04 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQomW-0002tb-GP for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:58:04 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HQomK-0000sy-4T for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:57:48 +0100 Received: from d252136.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.136]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:57:48 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252136.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:57:48 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:56:53 +0100 Organization: Lines: 28 Message-ID: <45F59465.2E01@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00be01c76409$da85bef0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703111608q39a8709ek57d187cb603ce7c0@mail.gmail.com> <45F579AB.3D67@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45F58997.5000103@yahoo-inc.com> <45F58C4F.6CE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45F5902E.7020605@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252136.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Note the use of "preferable" to "desirable" or "necessary". Noted now... :-) >> Karen said she doesn't need any 'non-written' pseudo-script, it >> is IMO unnecessary that 4646bis tries to explain what Zxxx is, >> let alone inventing its own peculiar interpretation. > Yes, but Mark has stated several times that he (and presumably > some other folks forming his "we") needs it. I thought it was a kind of pluralis majestatis "we, the industry" in support of Karen. > as long as it does no harm, I don't see how some additional MAYs > in the text would be so awful. If 15924 would adopt Peter's broader interpretation it's okay, but without it Doug's + Marion's WySiWyG interpretations were convincing. If you add a SHOULD NOT for script subtags and non-written content, you've to mention Zxxx as an exception anyway, that would be also a good place for further Zxxx (ab)uses. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 15:25:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQq8g-0006ym-MJ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:24:58 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQq8f-0006uY-KV for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:24:57 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQq4m-0001D8-Pf for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:21:02 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HQq4m-0002nE-Sf; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:20:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:20:56 -0400 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... Message-ID: <20070312192056.GG6359@mercury.ccil.org> References: <45F58964.3020408@yahoo-inc.com> <45F59126.248@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45F59126.248@xyzzy.claranet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > Addison Phillips wrote: > > >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages". > >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented > >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy' > >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection > >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for > >| their inclusion in the collection. > > > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone > > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here? > > aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this > endless list. Some collections like "apa" are apparently related, > if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated". Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups. According to the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are: 1) two special cases: art = "artificial languages" and mis = "miscellaneous languages"; 2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa = "Apachean languages called 'Apache'", bih = "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him = "Western Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh"; 3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai = "North, Central, South American Indian", paa = "Papuan", phi = "Philippine", cau = "Caucasian" (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups). By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups. I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this: # Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference # to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a # subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple # languages, usually related. For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents # "Chamic languages". The registry contains entries for each of the # approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective # subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham. dropping the final sentence entirely. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarves. --Murray Gell-Mann _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 16:32:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQrC5-0002bU-Q4; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:32:33 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQrC4-0002bF-9s for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:32:32 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQrBw-0003Na-FA for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:32:32 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2CKWDRZ099520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:32:14 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MuTX7UL8ZKhbrzFHndJKIXnS/rTgVVx4Ac0hX6hh/3fawLOd2+WXepp7toDuWKO9 Message-ID: <45F5B8CD.40509@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:32:13 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> <20070312085553.GA26673@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20070312085553.GA26673@nic.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > >> Use the \u#### or %## format (where # == hex digit). The former would be >> in UTF-16 code units. The latter would be in UTF-8 code units (aka >> "bytes" or "octets"). > > Strongly -1 for me You oppose either of these escaping mechanisms, I take it. I proposed these not for the purity or "correctness" of their approach. Rather, I picked them for the availability to IANA of simple-to-use, widely-available tools that understood these specific formats. I note that: 1. The escaped material will be seen only by IANA for the purpose of creating the "initial" 4646bis registry. It will be removed from the final RFC. 2. There will be no supplemental characters in the registry. > > 1) If we use an espace mechanism, it should be to code points, which > are a high-level concept, not to code units, which depends on the > encoding. Apart from URI percent-escape, no standard use escape > mechanisms to encode an encoding! Actually, almost all escaping mechanisms deal with encodings (code units) and not character sets (code points). Unicode escaping mechanisms tend to be an exception to this rule, at least in *theory* (the \u#### formats exposes UTF-16's structure). Examples of other escaping mechanisms would be MIME's use of base64 and quoted-printable. > > If we persist in the mistake of URI percent-escape, at least we should > rely on UTF-8, not on the UTF-16 horror with its surrogates. I think I said that for URI-encoding, no? UTF-16's use of surrogate pairs might not be ideal for an escaping mechanism. However, support for UTF-16 is widely available and supplemental characters are not a problem for *this given instance* of the problem. In particular, I proposed the given format because there are many tools for dealing with it "off-the-shelf". Frank makes a good point about using browsers to read XML NCRs, but I note that his approach does require dinking around with the Internet-Draft. My approach can be applied directly to the text of the I-D and then a text or stream editor used to rip out the extra matter. Having IANA write a custom parser or having Doug provide a script in the I-D is less desirable (at least to me) than having a well-known tool (native2ascii, perl, etc.) that already digests the given format. > > 2) If we use an escape mechanism, it should be with explicit > delimiters like \u(NNNN) because it is unambiguous and easy to parse. In a perfect world, yes. But *existing* tools were my focus. > > But I suggest to defer this until draft-klensin-unicode-escapes-03 > becomes approved (these questions are NOT LTRU-specific and are > currently discussed in the Application Area). > Why? We might be done before that draft-klensin is approved. And this issue will *disappear* forever once our document is published. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 16:56:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQrZK-0004Xx-69; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:56:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQrYO-00043b-VW for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:55:37 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQrUQ-0000FL-WB for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:51:42 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2CKpLa1079272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:51:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HGF4BnswgJrbC5CcPHNqby2BeDxBF2cveO+1ZMqZA6uuH0FdSary2EGHnTfnh0vM Message-ID: <45F5BD49.20805@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:51:21 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... References: <45F58964.3020408@yahoo-inc.com> <45F59126.248@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070312192056.GG6359@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070312192056.GG6359@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > > # Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference > # to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a > # subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple > # languages, usually related. For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents > # "Chamic languages". The registry contains entries for each of the > # approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective > # subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham. I used this example. > > dropping the final sentence entirely. > I dropped the final sentence. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 17:20:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQrvv-0000Yf-RA; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:19:55 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQrvs-0000WE-Ge for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:19:52 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQrvp-0002a1-8i for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:19:52 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HQrvd-0001rG-Ge; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:19:37 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:19:37 -0400 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? Message-ID: <20070312211937.GJ6359@mercury.ccil.org> References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> <20070312085553.GA26673@nic.fr> <45F5B8CD.40509@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45F5B8CD.40509@yahoo-inc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > Actually, almost all escaping mechanisms deal with encodings (code > units) and not character sets (code points). Unicode escaping mechanisms > tend to be an exception to this rule, at least in *theory* (the \u#### > formats exposes UTF-16's structure). Examples of other escaping > mechanisms would be MIME's use of base64 and quoted-printable. Well, Java-style \u is about code units, and so is URI escaping; both for reasons of backward compatibility. But C-style, Perl-style, and XML-style escaping are about code points. Base64 and QP aren't in this fight; they are intended for general octet sequences, not just text. > Having IANA write a custom parser or having Doug provide a script in the > I-D is less desirable (at least to me) than having a well-known tool > (native2ascii, perl, etc.) that already digests the given format. I note that native2ascii doesn't work reliably on random text files; it knows at least some of Java's syntax, and can do bad things to backslashes, apostrophes, and quotation marks. This isn't particularly relevant for the registry, more of a warning in general. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org "You need a change: try Canada" "You need a change: try China" --fortune cookies opened by a couple that I know _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 19:43:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQuAa-0008Aq-MI; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:43:12 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQuAZ-00089r-V3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:43:11 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.170]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQuAU-0006C1-HM for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:43:11 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id k3so47679ugf for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:43:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=qFBTXGkjjOhGRoZZJ/fBJ2o6l9APzZt5YB4uhMUr5K36icvlz6LVsvsEhff1xySY6b8lU+hndfCF7dm0mUKzY1u3vJbF5xDX6wXqN2wLPAvfwN5AXO+eSSj4iu1+eZw+1+MJNlwX5ALcGtFUhdRHt1FBShavQAdjTgmeM0a8h+o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=R8GXwp4wUDIGLYfeJViclcIU3uNYH/ae3gh6GACT7aSr0wCgJDoSinfMteB7pTvKinI97RiylmJ5IDlw/Cq72F+/mEqsoTxW8shs/2mS1QbJ7oz9K7G7IdYfuRBInqWZgwsk5ZsXGURFvF9zASlx6JNcJOe/HeMJYVZu/VR/VkM= Received: by 10.115.92.2 with SMTP id u2mr2128742wal.1173742983264; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703121643jad8276aoc80ee73245523723@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:43:03 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... In-Reply-To: <20070312192056.GG6359@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <45F58964.3020408@yahoo-inc.com> <45F59126.248@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070312192056.GG6359@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4d799e32e35e0266 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0330751398==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0330751398== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_16699_21553709.1173742983227" ------=_Part_16699_21553709.1173742983227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline So are you saying that most of the collections really should have been macro languages? Mark On 3/12/07, John Cowan wrote: > > Frank Ellermann scripsit: > > > Addison Phillips wrote: > > > > >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages". > > >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented > > >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy' > > >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection > > >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for > > >| their inclusion in the collection. > > > > > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone > > > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here? > > > > aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this > > endless list. Some collections like "apa" are apparently related, > > if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated". > > Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups. According to > the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful > thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are: > > 1) two special cases: art = "artificial languages" and mis = > "miscellaneous > languages"; > > 2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa = "Apachean languages called > 'Apache'", bih = "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him = "Western > Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh"; > > 3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai = "North, Central, South > American Indian", paa = "Papuan", phi = "Philippine", cau = "Caucasian" > (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups). > > By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups. > I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this: > > # Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference > # to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a > # subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple > # languages, usually related. For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents > # "Chamic languages". The registry contains entries for each of the > # approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective > # subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham. > > dropping the final sentence entirely. > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan > If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by > dwarves. > --Murray Gell-Mann > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_16699_21553709.1173742983227 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline So are you saying that most of the collections really should have been macro languages?

Mark

On 3/12/07, John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Frank Ellermann scripsit:

> Addison Phillips wrote:
>
> >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages".
> >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented
> >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy'
> >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection
> >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for
> >| their inclusion in the collection.
>
> > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone
> > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here?
>
> aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this
> endless list.  Some collections like "apa" are apparently related,
> if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated".

Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups.  According to
the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful
thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are:

1) two special cases: art = "artificial languages" and mis = "miscellaneous
   languages";

2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa = "Apachean languages called
   'Apache'", bih = "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him = "Western
   Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh";

3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai = "North, Central, South
   American Indian", paa = "Papuan", phi = "Philippine", cau = "Caucasian"
   (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups).

By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups.
I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this:

# Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference
# to subtags for language collections.  A "language collection" is a
# subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple
# languages, usually related.  For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents
# "Chamic languages".  The registry contains entries for each of the
# approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective
# subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham.

dropping the final sentence entirely.

--
John Cowan   cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarves.
        --Murray Gell-Mann

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_16699_21553709.1173742983227-- --===============0330751398== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0330751398==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 20:48:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQvBt-0006DC-6M; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:48:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQvBr-0006CU-Fs for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:48:35 -0400 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQvBm-0006nb-0j for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:48:35 -0400 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:48:29 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.111]) with mapi; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:48:28 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:48:26 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... Thread-Index: AcdlAD8dDg5Xh+gqStyc1b7bXjfPMgAB6UjQ Message-ID: References: <45F58964.3020408@yahoo-inc.com> <45F59126.248@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070312192056.GG6359@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703121643jad8276aoc80ee73245523723@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703121643jad8276aoc80ee73245523723@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea36de7a5e28e9b4461c8d685f4e97f1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0041299996==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0041299996== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70EEFC76NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70EEFC76NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IMO, that would really stretch the intended meaning of "macrolanguage". For= instance, "Afro-Asiatic languages" is a very diverse group. It would make = absolutely no sense to treat afa as a single language in any application co= ntext I can think of. Peter ________________________________ From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 4:43 PM To: John Cowan Cc: Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... So are you saying that most of the collections really should have been macr= o languages? Mark On 3/12/07, John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org> wrote: Frank Ellermann scripsit: > Addison Phillips wrote: > > >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages". > >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented > >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy' > >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection > >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for > >| their inclusion in the collection. > > > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone > > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here? > > aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this > endless list. Some collections like "apa" are apparently related, > if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated". Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups. According to the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are: 1) two special cases: art =3D "artificial languages" and mis =3D "miscellan= eous languages"; 2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa =3D "Apachean languages called 'Apache'", bih =3D "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him =3D "West= ern Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh"; 3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai =3D "North, Central, South American Indian", paa =3D "Papuan", phi =3D "Philippine", cau =3D "Cauca= sian" (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups). By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups. I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this: # Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference # to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a # subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple # languages, usually related. For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents # "Chamic languages". The registry contains entries for each of the # approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective # subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham. dropping the final sentence entirely. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarve= s. --Murray Gell-Mann _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Mark --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70EEFC76NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IMO, that<= /font> would really stretch the intended meaning of “macrolanguage”. For instance, “Afro-Asiat= ic languages” is a very diverse group. It would make absolutely no sense= to treat afa as a single language in any application con= text I can think of.

 

Peter

 

From: Mark Dav= is [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007= 4:43 PM
To: John Cowan
Cc: Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Lang= uage Collections text...

 

So are you saying= that most of the collections really should have been macro languages?

Mark

On 3/12/07, = John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org&= gt; wrote:

Frank Ellermann scripsit:

> Addison Phillips wrote:
>
> >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages".
> >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represen= ted
> >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy'=
> >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection > >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for<= br> > >| their inclusion in the collection.
>
> > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someo= ne
> > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here?
>
> aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this
> endless list.  Some collections like "apa" are apparently related,
> if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated".

Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups.  Accordi= ng to
the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful <= br> thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are:
1) two special cases: art =3D "artificial languages" and mis =3D "miscellaneous
   languages";

2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa =3D "Apachean languages cal= led
   'Apache'", bih =3D "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him =3D "Western
   Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh";

3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai =3D "North, Central, So= uth
   American Indian", paa =3D "Papuan", phi =3D "Philippine", cau =3D "Caucasian"
   (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups)= .

By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups.
I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this:

# Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference
# to subtags for language collections.  A "language collection" is a
# subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple # languages, usually related.  For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents
# "Chamic languages".  The registry contains entries fo= r each of the
# approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective
# subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham.

dropping the final sentence entirely.

--
John Cowan   cowan@ccil.org=   http://ccil.org/~cowan
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarve= s.
        --Murray Gell-Mann

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70EEFC76NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============0041299996== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0041299996==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 20:51:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQvEJ-0006tp-EV; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:51:07 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQvEI-0006ti-7O for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:51:06 -0400 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQvEG-0007XB-Uw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:51:06 -0400 Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.113) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:51:04 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.113]) with mapi; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:51:03 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:51:02 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Reserving subtags Thread-Index: AcdkzVy8S84+JWonQUW9a9TTy/LRBwAPCl/w Message-ID: References: <00be01c76409$da85bef0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703111608q39a8709ek57d187cb603ce7c0@mail.gmail.com> <45F579AB.3D67@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45F58997.5000103@yahoo-inc.com> <45F58C4F.6CE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <45F5902E.7020605@yahoo-inc.com> In-Reply-To: <45F5902E.7020605@yahoo-inc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com] > >> I think that suggesting the co=F6pted use of Zxxx is preferable. > > Note the use of "preferable" to "desirable" or "necessary". I noticed. Had you gone a step further and said, "We should co=F6pt..." I w= ould have objected. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 21:26:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQvm4-0003gC-Av; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:26:00 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQvm2-0003fP-Iz for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:25:58 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.172]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQvly-0007Gt-C5 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:25:58 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id k3so78378ugf for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:25:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=JmakcoYAtpDQaOw3w6+44BvStUWiEOPkFn0rEachdb77Oc9hghNRCPG8iszTMInLxOZ3P0s14j0R9zMx9gZhUeEam2NXcjakyJ8QpuVvHxs/eNADN8L6FgAv2ona2VCehYw4rSqJre0pJuqk5Q95txHEFWy4Fy/P+M7xTIJhNrU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=lbTNJrfSm6RoZcLx/nuwz79x2b7jSUYEgYpPKjJZzbWxduliZ2DHPhj5I+AhCflBH6qht33vIOkRwzQ+VkdygH2kGWOWIBqomHmBM4X3EdMxX5Sivil6zVpBj3XhvpqFzaILN7syj875wj7DAiPQ2AgzXjtEP1n0WjROYj1V49s= Received: by 10.115.95.1 with SMTP id x1mr2162870wal.1173749142048; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703121825l6e500635k372e2fe4abc22738@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:25:41 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <45F58964.3020408@yahoo-inc.com> <45F59126.248@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070312192056.GG6359@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703121643jad8276aoc80ee73245523723@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 959274fdcde1e3da X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4e5f67c5e230eddf754446d1a2201a4 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1161535444==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1161535444== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18388_23396074.1173749141992" ------=_Part_18388_23396074.1173749141992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I assume your question was for John. I have no stake either way; just trying to understand what John was saying. My impression was that according to ISO 639-3, all of the collections are really somewhat bogus, and shouldn't really used for denoting languages. Mark On 3/12/07, Peter Constable wrote: > > IMO, that would really stretch the intended meaning of "macrolanguage". > For instance, "Afro-Asiatic languages" is a very diverse group. It would > make absolutely no sense to treat afa as a single language in any > application context I can think of. > > > > Peter > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] > *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2007 4:43 PM > *To:* John Cowan > *Cc:* Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... > > > > So are you saying that most of the collections really should have been > macro languages? > > Mark > > On 3/12/07, *John Cowan* < cowan@ccil.org> wrote: > > Frank Ellermann scripsit: > > > Addison Phillips wrote: > > > > >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages". > > >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented > > >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy' > > >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection > > >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for > > >| their inclusion in the collection. > > > > > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone > > > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here? > > > > aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this > > endless list. Some collections like "apa" are apparently related, > > if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated". > > Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups. According to > the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful > thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are: > > 1) two special cases: art = "artificial languages" and mis = > "miscellaneous > languages"; > > 2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa = "Apachean languages called > 'Apache'", bih = "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him = "Western > Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh"; > > 3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai = "North, Central, South > American Indian", paa = "Papuan", phi = "Philippine", cau = "Caucasian" > (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups). > > By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups. > I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this: > > # Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference > # to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a > # subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple > # languages, usually related. For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents > # "Chamic languages". The registry contains entries for each of the > # approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective > # subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham. > > dropping the final sentence entirely. > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan > If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by > dwarves. > --Murray Gell-Mann > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > -- > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > -- Mark ------=_Part_18388_23396074.1173749141992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I assume your question was for John. I have no stake either way; just trying to understand what John was saying. My impression was that according to ISO 639-3, all of the collections are really somewhat bogus, and shouldn't really used for denoting languages.

Mark

On 3/12/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

IMO, that would really stretch the intended meaning of "macrolanguage". For instance, "Afro-Asiatic languages" is a very diverse group. It would make absolutely no sense to treat afa as a single language in any application context I can think of.

 

Peter

 

From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 4:43 PM
To: John Cowan
Cc: Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text...

 

So are you saying that most of the collections really should have been macro languages?

Mark

On 3/12/07, John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

Frank Ellermann scripsit:

> Addison Phillips wrote:
>
> >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages".
> >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented
> >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy'
> >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection
> >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for
> >| their inclusion in the collection.
>
> > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone
> > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here?
>
> aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this
> endless list.  Some collections like "apa" are apparently related,
> if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated".

Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups.  According to
the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful
thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are:

1) two special cases: art = "artificial languages" and mis = "miscellaneous
   languages";

2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa = "Apachean languages called
   'Apache'", bih = "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him = "Western
   Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh";

3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai = "North, Central, South
   American Indian", paa = "Papuan", phi = "Philippine", cau = "Caucasian"
   (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups).

By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups.
I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this:

# Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference
# to subtags for language collections.  A "language collection" is a
# subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple
# languages, usually related.  For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents
# "Chamic languages".  The registry contains entries for each of the
# approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective
# subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham.

dropping the final sentence entirely.

--
John Cowan   cowan@ccil.org   http://ccil.org/~cowan
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarves.
        --Murray Gell-Mann

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark ------=_Part_18388_23396074.1173749141992-- --===============1161535444== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1161535444==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 13 02:20:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HR0Mg-0008NB-IW; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:20:06 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HR0J0-0005fg-Q8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:16:18 -0400 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HR04I-0000qb-4Q for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:01:12 -0400 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:01:05 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:01:04 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:00:59 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... Thread-Index: AcdlDoYEQgK8oAs5TpKqPEt4+QbRjwAJRhuQ Message-ID: References: <45F58964.3020408@yahoo-inc.com> <45F59126.248@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070312192056.GG6359@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703121643jad8276aoc80ee73245523723@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20703121825l6e500635k372e2fe4abc22738@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703121825l6e500635k372e2fe4abc22738@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: ceb20e3ccfd90d068e2ad6c8a4781b53 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1408859470==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1408859470== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70EEFCFFNAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70EEFCFFNAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, 639-3 doesn't anywhere suggest that the collections are bogus. It jus= t doesn't add anything new with regard to them. Perhaps that's because I pe= rsonally wasn't all that interested in the collections and so made no point= to incorporate them into 639-3. But as far as 639-3 is concerned, collecti= on IDs exist and are part of the same alpha-3 code space; they just aren't = defined in the code tables provided by 639-3. Of course a collection ID do not denote individual languages; by definition= they denote collections of languages. Whether it is useful for a collectiv= e language ID to be used to describe the language of an information object = depends on the particular application. In the Redmond Public Library, if th= ey happened to have any items in Dyirbal or Lardil, they probably wouldn't = have much customer need to differentiate the languages and might call all o= f them "Australian languages". But the same may not be true for general app= lications of BCP47. Peter From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On B= ehalf Of Mark Davis Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 6:26 PM To: Peter Constable Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... I assume your question was for John. I have no stake either way; just tryin= g to understand what John was saying. My impression was that according to I= SO 639-3, all of the collections are really somewhat bogus, and shouldn't r= eally used for denoting languages. Mark On 3/12/07, Peter Constable > wrote: IMO, that would really stretch the intended meaning of "macrolanguage". For= instance, "Afro-Asiatic languages" is a very diverse group. It would make = absolutely no sense to treat afa as a single language in any application co= ntext I can think of. Peter ________________________________ From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 4:43 PM To: John Cowan Cc: Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... So are you saying that most of the collections really should have been macr= o languages? Mark On 3/12/07, John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org> wrote: Frank Ellermann scripsit: > Addison Phillips wrote: > > >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages". > >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented > >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy' > >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection > >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for > >| their inclusion in the collection. > > > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone > > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here? > > aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this > endless list. Some collections like "apa" are apparently related, > if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated". Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups. According to the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are: 1) two special cases: art =3D "artificial languages" and mis =3D "miscellan= eous languages"; 2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa =3D "Apachean languages called 'Apache'", bih =3D "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him =3D "West= ern Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh"; 3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai =3D "North, Central, South American Indian", paa =3D "Papuan", phi =3D "Philippine", cau =3D "Cauca= sian" (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups). By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups. I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this: # Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference # to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a # subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple # languages, usually related. For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents # "Chamic languages". The registry contains entries for each of the # approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective # subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham. dropping the final sentence entirely. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan= If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarve= s. --Murray Gell-Mann _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Mark _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Mark --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70EEFCFFNAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, 639-3 doesn’t anywhere suggest that the collecti= ons are bogus. It just doesn’t add anything new with regard to them. Perh= aps that’s because I personally wasn’t all that interested in the collections and so made no point to incorporate them into 639-3. But as far= as 639-3 is concerned, collection IDs exist and are part of the same alpha-3 c= ode space; they just aren’t defined in the code tables provided by 639-3.=

 

Of course a collection ID do not denote individual languages= ; by definition they denote collections of languages. Whether it is useful for a collective language ID to be used to describe the language of an informatio= n object depends on the particular application. In the Redmond Public Library= , if they happened to have any items in Dyirbal or Lardil, they probably wouldn&= #8217;t have much customer need to differentiate the languages and might call all o= f them “Australian languages”. But the same may not be true for general applications of BCP47.

 

 

Peter

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Beha= lf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 6:26 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text...

 

I assume your question = was for John. I have no stake either way; just trying to understand what John was saying. My impression was that according to ISO 639-3, all of the collectio= ns are really somewhat bogus, and shouldn't really used for denoting languages= .

Mark

On 3/12/07, Peter Constabl= e <petercon@microsoft.com>= ; wrote:

IMO, that would really stretch the intended meaning of "macrolanguage"= . For instance, "Afro-Asiatic languages" is a very diverse group. I= t would make absolutely no sense to treat afa as a single language in any application context I can think of.

 

Peter

 

Fr= om: Mark Davis [m= ailto:mark.davis@icu= -project.org]
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 4:43 PM
To: John Cowan
Cc: Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text...

 

So are you saying that most of the collec= tions really should have been macro languages?

Mark

On 3/12/07, John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

Frank Ellermann scripsit:

> Addison Phillips wrote:
>
> >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages".
> >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represen= ted
> >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy'=
> >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection > >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for<= br> > >| their inclusion in the collection.
>
> > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someo= ne
> > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here?
>
> aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this
> endless list.  Some collections like "apa" are apparently related,
> if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated".

Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups.  Accordi= ng to
the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful <= br> thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are:
1) two special cases: art =3D "artificial languages" and mis =3D "miscellaneous
   languages";

2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa =3D "Apachean languages cal= led
   'Apache'", bih =3D "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him =3D "Western
   Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh";

3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai =3D "North, Central, So= uth
   American Indian", paa =3D "Papuan", phi =3D "Philippine", cau =3D "Caucasian"
   (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups)= .

By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups.
I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this:

# Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference
# to subtags for language collections.  A "language collection" is a
# subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple # languages, usually related.  For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents
# "Chamic languages".  The registry contains entries fo= r each of the
# approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective
# subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham.

dropping the final sentence entirely.

--
John Cowan   = cowan@ccil.org   http://ccil.org/~cowan=
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarve= s.
        --Murray Gell-Mann

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
h= ttps://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
h= ttps://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70EEFCFFNAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============1408859470== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1408859470==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 13 15:12:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRCPb-0002py-B3; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:11:55 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRCPZ-0002ps-RJ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:11:53 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.172]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRCPY-00066O-HM for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:11:53 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so360973ugd for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:11:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=iHwH88AIAO3UMyHvjO78yAilMzOAdyHTYCXT3SpAyIFBluEVHAy4IsKzK5vsccO2GZmG5qDvAeCEHP8kndG+M/WHozWd6dp1VccdAHlVRC2R6tMLf4+DtZuwxOY4VdJufE+zIpr8huQwjewxUJazi7V4GrMVHVZZ91CGIW8PnPM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=lvlv/kXARPIEEgCnz3U6FFoRR9G8+RtX25/fpt/ocd86LeTz4ak6GHdOU8dxzaWSq83GJ8EwecKOVD46PuR0Oz69GVLh9bNVTBCkNh6Z8+ycL4ia2I//KwsHfK5kOKU7wLe3wpirvwckkdLXOMOgrnaKbtyXvdyMOcR9kX59ftg= Received: by 10.114.37.1 with SMTP id k1mr2528329wak.1173813111219; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703131211r20b4ee68ja6e7670b74e65c4c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:11:51 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "LTRU Working Group" , ISO639-3@sil.org, iso639-2@loc.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b1b9972124e03c6c X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1348261924==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1348261924== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_37720_17752947.1173813111187" ------=_Part_37720_17752947.1173813111187 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes: pmu Mirpur Panjabi pnb Western Panjabi pan Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue. It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro language for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (= "pa"), even as a macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale pa_PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement? -- Mark ------=_Part_37720_17752947.1173813111187 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes:

pmu    Mirpur Panjabi
pnb    Western Panjabi
pan    Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue.

It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro language for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (= "pa"), even as a macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale pa_PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement?

--
Mark ------=_Part_37720_17752947.1173813111187-- --===============1348261924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1348261924==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 13 15:56:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRD6X-0004pH-U8; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:56:17 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRD6W-0004pC-Iy for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:56:16 -0400 Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRD6Q-0005vh-DU for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:56:16 -0400 Received: (qmail 8855 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2007 14:55:16 -0500 Received: from pool-72-75-17-82.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (72.75.17.82) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 13 Mar 2007 14:55:15 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: "'Mark Davis'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" , , References: <30b660a20703131211r20b4ee68ja6e7670b74e65c4c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703131211r20b4ee68ja6e7670b74e65c4c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:55:04 -0400 Message-ID: <008101c765a9$7f4d01a0$7de704e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acdlo4R5+vCaS32kROuxMUTBiJJLbgAA3xow Content-Language: en-us X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cdb443e3957ca9b4c5b55e78cfcf4b26 Cc: "'Sarmad Hussain, Dr.'" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1632372693==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1632372693== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0082_01C76587.F83B61A0" Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01C76587.F83B61A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark. An addendum to your question would be what they write. Might = there be a pa-PK written standard? I don=E2=80=99t know, just asking.=20 =20 I will take the liberty of cc=E2=80=99ing the question to Dr. Sarmad = Hussein of the National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences in = Lahore, who also heads the PAN L10n project in Asia ( = http://www.panl10n.net ), in case he has any thoughts.=20 =20 Don =20 =20 From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:12 PM To: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi =20 I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO = 639-3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes: pmu Mirpur Panjabi pnb Western Panjabi pan Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue.=20 It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro = language for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (=3D "pa"), even as a = macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale = pa_PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement?=20 --=20 Mark=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01C76587.F83B61A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Mark. An addendum to your question would be what they = write. Might there be a pa-PK written standard? I don=E2=80=99t know, just asking. =

 

I will take the liberty of cc=E2=80=99ing the question to = Dr. Sarmad Hussein of the National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences in = Lahore, who also heads the PAN L10n project in Asia ( http://www.panl10n.net ), in case he has any thoughts.

 

Don

 

 

From:= Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:12 PM
To: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi

 

I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-3 divides Punjabi into three = separate codes:

pmu    Mirpur Panjabi
pnb    Western Panjabi
pan    Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the = Ethnologue.

It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro = language for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (=3D "pa"), = even as a macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale = pa_PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement?

--
Mark

------=_NextPart_000_0082_01C76587.F83B61A0-- --===============1632372693== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1632372693==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 13 16:57:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRE3j-0002XW-4w; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:57:27 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRE3i-0002XN-8m for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:57:26 -0400 Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRE3V-0002HV-Oh for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:57:26 -0400 Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.113) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:57:13 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.113]) with mapi; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:57:12 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis , LTRU Working Group , "ISO639-3@sil.org" , "iso639-2@loc.gov" Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:57:10 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Punjabi Thread-Index: Acdlo5wIey2sF102RWaCIOyPr83oDgABT1yA Message-ID: References: <30b660a20703131211r20b4ee68ja6e7670b74e65c4c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703131211r20b4ee68ja6e7670b74e65c4c@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a9274e02b4e2f7fb8e575537d7b25328 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0450291588==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0450291588== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D5CANAEXMSGC117re_"; type="multipart/alternative" --_004_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D5CANAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D5CANAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D5CANAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This seems a bit off-topic for the LTRU list; nevertheless... The easy part: "pan" in ISO 639-2 denotes the same thing as "pan" in ISO 63= 9-3. Now the harder part (entailing agreement that pa-PK may not make much sense= )... There's a small handful of remaining open issues that the JAC needs to reso= lve in how pre-existing entries in 639-1/-2 should relate to what was new i= n the draft tables for 639-3, all having to do with South Asia; this is one= of them. Most (all?) of these cases are messy because names have been used= in very inconsistent ways. E.g., it's not uncommon to use a label to mean = the vernacular variety spoken in some region, even though there may be seve= ral vernaculars, not necessarily closely related, and the same label is app= lied to any and all of them (e.g., "Bihari"). Here's the info I've compiled on this case: PROBLEM: ISO 639 has entries [lah] "Lahnda" and [pa/pan] "Panjabi". These t= wo must be ?considered together.? Corresponding to "Panjabi", Ethnologue lists three languages: - "Eastern Panjabi", or "Gurmukhi" ?is spoken primarily in the Punjab state= of India, pop. est. 27,125,000; - "Mirpur Panjabi", or ??"Mirpuri", is spoken primarily in Kashmir, pop. es= t. 30,000; and - "Western Panjabi", or "Lahnda", ?spoken primarily in the Punjab province = of Pakistan, pop. est. 45,000,000. "Lahnda" is also used in Ethnologue's language classification (derived from= the Int'l Ency. of Linguistics) ?as the name of a genetic sub-group that i= ncludes Western and Mirpur Panjabi, but not Eastern ?Panjabi. ?In fact, the= classification separates these at a higher level: Indo-European / Indo-Iranian / Indo-Aryan Central Zone Bhil sub-group (19 languages) Domari Gujarati sub-group (9) ... Panjabi sub-group -> Eastern Panjabi ... Rajasthani sub-group (18) ... Western Hindi sub-group (12) ... Hindi ... ... Eastern Zone Bengali-Assamese sub-group (16) ... Northern Zone Central Pahari sub-group (1) Northern Zone Nepali ... Western Pahari sub-group (17) ... Pahari-Potwari ... Northwestern Zone Dardic sub-group (27) Lahnda sub-group -> Mirpur Panjabi -> Western Panjabi ... Sindhi sub-group (5) ... Sinhalese-Maldivian (3) Southern Zone Konkani sub-group (7) ... That classification suggests that the level of closeness (genetically) betw= een Eastern Panjabi (=3D Gurmukhi) and Western or Mirpur Panjabi is on an o= rder similar to the difference between any of these and (say) Bengali, Nepa= li, Konkani or Sinhalese. Grierson used the term "Panjabi" for varieties spoken in "Eastern Panjab" (= what is now the ?Punjab state of India plus the eastern fringe of the Punja= b province of Pakistan). This would ?match Ethnologue's "Eastern Panjabi". = ? Grierson introduced the term "Lahnda" (a Punjabi word meaning 'western') fo= r varieties in ??"Western Panjab" (roughly what is now the Punjab province = of Pakistan) due to their distinctness ?from "Panjabi", having significant = differences from the latter while also much in common with ?Sindhi. "Landha= " is not used by speakers of these varieties, though the term caught on amo= ng ?many linguists. ? Following Grierson's usage, "Lahnda" has been described as a cover term for= a dialect chain ?between Sindhi in the south and various northern varietie= s including Western Punjabi, Pahari-?Potwari and Hindko varieties. In terms= of the classification scheme referred to in Ethnologue, this ?would likely= include the languages of the "Lahnda" sub-group (possibly excluding Khetra= ni or ?Jakati), plus Pahari-Potwari (which is in a different branch of Indo= -Aryan). ? ? Ethnologue lists "Lahnda" as an alternate name for "Western Panjabi". "West= ern Panjabi" ?appears to correspond to "Shahpuri", which Grierson considere= d to be "standard Lahnda" ??(Masica 1991, p. 18).? The MARC Language Code List uses "Lahnda" for Western Panjabi, but also as = a collective that ?appears similar to Grierson's usage.? ? Comments from Mi= licent Wewerka suggest that MARC ?usage of [pa/pan] should be equated with = Ethnologue's "Eastern Panjabi".? I think it's pretty clear that a macrolanguage "Panjabi" that would encompa= ss Eastern P. (Gurmukhi) with either or both of Western P. or Mirpur P. mak= es little sense linguistically. But language coding doesn't always get appl= ied in ways that make sense linguistically, so perhaps there is some contex= t in which a macrolangauge encompassing all three would make sense (though = I don't think so). But note that as soon as you suggest a macrolanguage, th= en the existing entry lah comes into the picture. What was done in the draft table for 639-3 - now shipped - is to equate pan= with Eastern Panjabi (Gurmukhi) and to treat lah as a macrolanguage corres= ponding to the Lahnda genetic sub-group that encompasses seven languages - = including Western P. and Mirpur P., but not Eastern P. That makes lah close= to but not exactly the same as the way Grierson and MARC have used "Lahnda= " (e.g. Pahari-Potwari is excluded). I think that there's little question that the right thing was done for pan,= equating it with Ethnologue's Eastern Panjabi (=3D Gurmukhi). What is righ= t for lah is a little less clear. Given existing MARC usage, it would not b= e appropriate to use it in the narrowest sense in which it is an alias for = Western Panjabi. But it's not clear if a macrolanguage makes sense or if it= should be a collection; and if a collection, what it should include. To come back to your specific question, "pa-PK" would mean Eastern Panjabi = (=3D Gurmukhi) as used in Pakistan. It wouldn't surprise me if that languag= e were used to some extent in Pakistan, but my understanding is that it is = not at all the same language that is usually meant when referring to "Panja= bi" in the context of Pakistan. If we want a macrolanguage for that, lah is= a candidate, though the name may not make that obvious. That was probably more than you were expecting. Peter ________________________________ From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:12 PM To: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-= 3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes: pmu Mirpur Panjabi pnb Western Panjabi pan Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue. It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro language = for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (=3D "pa"), even as a macro langu= age they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale pa_PK) is pro= bably a mistake. Is this a fair statement? -- Mark --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D5CANAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This seems a bit off-topic for the L= TRU list; nevertheless…

 

The easy part: “pan” in = ISO 639-2 denotes the same thing as “pan” in ISO 639-3.<= /span>

 

Now the harder part (entailing agree= ment that pa-PK may not make much sense)…

 

There’s a small handful of remaining open issues that the JAC needs to resolve in how pre-existing entries in 639-1/-2 should relate to what was n= ew in the draft tables for 639-3, all having to do with South Asia; this is on= e of them. Most (all?) of these cases are messy because names have been used in = very inconsistent ways. E.g., it’s not uncommon to use a label to mean the= vernacular variety spoken in some region, even though there may be several vernaculars= , not necessarily closely related, and the same label is applied to any and all o= f them (e.g., “Bihari”).

 

Here’s the info I’ve compiled on this case:

 

PROBLEM: ISO 639 has entries [lah] “Lahnda”= and [pa/pan] “Panjabi”. These two must be ‎considered togeth= er.‎

 

Corresponding to “Panjabi̶= 1;, Ethnologue lists three languages:

 

- “Eastern Panjabi”, or “Gurmukhi” ‎is spoken primarily in the Punjab state of India, pop. est. 27,125,000;

 

- “Mirpur= Panjabi”, or ‎‎“Mirpuri”, is spoken primarily in Kashmir, pop. = est. 30,000; and

 

- “Western Panjabi”, or “Lahnda”, ‎spoken primarily in the Punjab province of Pakistan, pop. est. 45,000,000. =

 

“Lahnda” is also used in Ethnologue’s language classification (derived from the Int’l Ency. of Linguistics) ‎as the name of a genetic sub-group that includes Western and Mirpur Panjabi, but not Eastern ‎Panjabi. <= /font>‎In fact, the classification separates these at a higher level:<= o:p>

 

Indo-European / Indo-Iranian / Indo-Aryan

&nbs= p;         Central Zone

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Bhil sub-group (19 languages)

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Domari

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Gujarati sub-group (9)

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     …

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Panjabi sub-group

->            &n= bsp;            Eastern Panjabi

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     …

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Rajasthani sub-group (18)

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     …

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Western Hindi sub-group (12)

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     …

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   Hindi

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     …

&nbs= p;         …

&nbs= p;         Eastern Zone

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Bengali-Assamese sub-group (16)

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     …

&nbs= p;         Northern Zone

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Central Pahari sub-group (1)

&nbs= p;         Northern Zone

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Nepali

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     …

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Western Pahari sub-group (17)<= /p>

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     …

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   Pahari-Potwari

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     …

&nbs= p;         Northwestern Zone

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Dardic sub-group (27)

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Lahnda sub-group

->            &n= bsp;            Mirpur Panjabi

->            &n= bsp;            Western Panjabi

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   …

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Sindhi sub-group (5)

&nbs= p;         …

&nbs= p;         Sinhalese-Maldivi= an (3)

&nbs= p;         Southern Zone

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Konkani sub-group (7)

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     …

 

That classification suggests that th= e level of closeness (genetically) between Eastern Panjabi (=3D Gurmukhi) and Western or Mirpur Panjabi is on an order si= milar to the difference between any of these and (say) Bengali, Nepali, Konkani o= r Sinhalese.

 

Grierson used the term “Panjabi” for varieties spoken in “Eastern Panjab” (what is now the <= /span>‎Punjab state of India plus the eastern fringe of the Punjab province of Pakistan). This would ‎match Ethnologue’s “Eastern Panjabi”. ‎

 

Grierson introduced the term “Lahnda&= #8221; (a Punjabi word meaning ‘western’) for varieties in ‎‎“Western Panjab” (rough= ly what is now the Punjab province of Pakistan) due to their distinctness ‎from “Panjabi”, having significant differences from= the latter while also much in common with ‎Sindhi. “Landha” is not used by speakers of these variet= ies, though the term caught on among ‎many linguists. <= /span>‎

 

Following Grier= son’s usage, “Lahnda” has been described = as a cover term for a dialect chain ‎between Sindhi in= the south and various northern varieties including Western Punjabi, Pahari-‎Potwari and Hindko varieties. In terms of the classification sche= me referred to in Ethnologue, this <= span lang=3DAR-SA style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-ascii-font-family:Verdana;mso-ha= nsi-font-family: Verdana;color:blue'>‎would likely incl= ude the languages of the “Lahnda” sub-g= roup (possibly excluding Khetrani or ‎Jakati), plus Pahari-Potwari (which is in= a different branch of Indo-Aryan).

 ‎ ‎

Ethnologue lists “Lahnda” as an alternate name for “Western Panjabi”. “Western Panjabi” ‎appears to correspond to “Shahpuri”, which Grierson considered to be “standard= Lahnda” ‎‎= (Masica 1991, p. 18).‎

 

The MARC Language Code List uses = 220;Lahnda” for Western Panjabi, but also as a coll= ective that ‎appears similar to Grierson’s= usage.‎ = ‎ Comments from Mi= licent Wewerka suggest that MARC ‎usage of [pa/pan]= should be equated with Ethnologue’s “Easte= rn Panjabi”.‎

 

 

I think it’s pretty clear that= a macrolanguage “Panjabi” that would encomp= ass Eastern P. (Gurmukhi) with either or both of We= stern P. or Mirpur P. makes little sense linguistical= ly. But language coding doesn’t always get applied in ways that make sense linguistically, so perhaps there is some context in which a macrolangauge encompassing all three would make sense (though I don’t think so). Bu= t note that as soon as you suggest a macrolanguage, then the existing entry lah comes into the pict= ure.

 

What was done in the draft table for 639-3 – now shipped – is to equate pan with Eastern Panjabi (Gurmukhi) and to treat lah as a macrolanguage corresponding to the Lahnda genetic sub-group that encompasses seven languages – including Wester= n P. and Mirpur P., but not Eastern P. That makes lah close to but not exactly the same as the way Grierson and MARC have used “Lahnda” (e.g. Pahari-Potwari is excluded).

 

I think that there’s little question that the right thing was done for pan, equating it with Ethnologue’s Eastern Panjabi (=3D Gurmukhi). What is right for lah is a little less clear. G= iven existing MARC usage, it would not be appropriate to use it in the narrowest sense in which it is an alias for Western Panjabi. But it’s not clear if a macrolanguage makes sense or if it should be a collec= tion; and if a collection, what it should include.

 

To come back to your specific questi= on, “pa-PK” would mean Eastern Panjabi (=3D Gurmukhi) as us= ed in Pakistan. It wouldn’t surprise me if that language were used to some extent in Pakistan, but my understanding is that it is not at all the same language that is usually meant when referring to “Panjabi” in t= he context of Pakistan. If we want a macrolanguage= for that, lah is a candidate, though the name may n= ot make that obvious.

 

That was probably more than you were expecting.

 

 

Peter

 

From: Mark Dav= is [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 200= 7 12:12 PM
To: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi

 

I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes:

pmu    Mirpur Panjabi
pnb    Western Panjabi
pan    Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue. =

It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro language = for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (=3D "pa"), even = as a macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale pa= _PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement?

--
Mark

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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0450291588==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 13 18:39:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRFdo-0007uP-VS; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:38:48 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRFdo-0007uJ-1D for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:38:48 -0400 Received: from netc-relay-3m.netcourrier.com ([194.158.104.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRFdk-0004GP-Jr for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:38:48 -0400 Received: from netcourrier.com (netcourrier-3m.netcourrier.com [194.158.104.103]) by netc-relay-3m.netcourrier.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C23EC3456C; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:38:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from [85.68.10.110] by netcourrier-3m.netcourrier.com via html interface From: Nicolas Krebs To: ltru@ietf.org Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:38:10 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Medianet/v2.0 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: jpharabod@free.fr Subject: [Ltru] Fw: errata for RFC 4646 Appendix B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org In the beginning of http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4646=23page-56 , = there is a link =22Errata=22 to = http://www.rfc-editor.org/cgi-bin/errataSearch.pl?rfc=3D4646 = wich show = > Erratum for RFC 4646 > = > RFC 4646, =22Tags for Identifying Languages=22, September 2006 > = > Reported By: > Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 00:34:22 +0200 > = > UNVERIFIED > Appendix B says: > = > sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian > = > It should say: > = > sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian) urn:ietf:rfc:4646 Appendix B ( http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4646=23page-5= 6 ) = has indeed a missing bracket, and urn:ietf:id:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-02 t= oo ( http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-02=23page-61 ). = I suggest to fix this in official errata of rfc 4646, and in rfc 4646bis. = _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 13 18:42:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRFhG-0000He-KV; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:42:22 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRFhF-0000GP-6w for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:42:21 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRFhD-0005IC-Re for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:42:21 -0400 Received: from [172.21.233.167] (wlanvpn-abc-233-167.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.233.167]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2DMgDQh096340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:42:14 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=gKspco5h3/QIsBiHAXuL1ECP+pcVaDd9a2W2XyX239D72Zglk/mtATiM0UFNTmbS Message-ID: <45F728C5.6040708@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:42:13 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicolas Krebs Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: errata for RFC 4646 Appendix B References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: jpharabod@free.fr, ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Good catch. I have fixed it in the editor's copy of draft-4646bis. Addison Nicolas Krebs wrote: > In the beginning of http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4646#page-56 , > there is a link "Errata" to > http://www.rfc-editor.org/cgi-bin/errataSearch.pl?rfc=4646 > wich show > >> Erratum for RFC 4646 >> >> RFC 4646, "Tags for Identifying Languages", September 2006 >> >> Reported By: >> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 00:34:22 +0200 >> >> UNVERIFIED >> Appendix B says: >> >> sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian >> >> It should say: >> >> sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian) > > urn:ietf:rfc:4646 Appendix B ( http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4646#page-56 ) > has indeed a missing bracket, and urn:ietf:id:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-02 too > ( http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-02#page-61 ). > > I suggest to fix this in official errata of rfc 4646, and in rfc 4646bis. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 13 22:11:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRIwp-0001IW-9c; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:10:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRIwn-0001IL-86 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:10:37 -0400 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRIwk-00083F-JE for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:10:37 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2E2AKId011444 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:10:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3d6f_28c4c180_d1d1_11db_91b7_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:10:19 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:60078) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:09:18 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070313150924.07c51110@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:14:05 +0900 To: John Cowan , ltru@ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] [everson@evertype.com: The Language Subtag Reviewer] In-Reply-To: <20070306163127.GD30618@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20070306163127.GD30618@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 01:31 07/03/07, John Cowan wrote: >The following message is being forwarded from ietf-languages@iana.org >as a public service. John - Thanks for forwarding. >----- Forwarded message from Michael Everson ----- > >Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:17:19 +0100 >To: IETF Languages Discussion >From: Michael Everson >Cc: >Subject: The Language Subtag Reviewer >It has also come to my attention that the description of Language >Subtag Reviewer's role and tasks is being discussed. > >In my opinion, the LSR should be a team, including one person who >knows about languages and linguistics, one person who deals with the >formatting and protocol matters, and one person to own and moderate >the discussion list. > >We already have this in practice, namely the team of myself, Doug >Ewell, and Harald Alvestrand. > >That team works well as far as I can see. I see two problems here: - Designing the spec to fit the current situation may work very well as long as the current situation stays as it is, but may break when the situation changes. - The above proposal does not address the question of who ultimately is making the decisions of whether to accept a tag or not. Would that still be Michael, or would that change to a majority decision? Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 13 22:11:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRIwp-0001IW-9c; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:10:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRIwn-0001IL-86 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:10:37 -0400 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRIwk-00083F-JE for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:10:37 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2E2AKId011444 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:10:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3d6f_28c4c180_d1d1_11db_91b7_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:10:19 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:60078) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:09:18 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070313150924.07c51110@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:14:05 +0900 To: John Cowan , ltru@ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] [everson@evertype.com: The Language Subtag Reviewer] In-Reply-To: <20070306163127.GD30618@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20070306163127.GD30618@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 01:31 07/03/07, John Cowan wrote: >The following message is being forwarded from ietf-languages@iana.org >as a public service. John - Thanks for forwarding. >----- Forwarded message from Michael Everson ----- > >Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:17:19 +0100 >To: IETF Languages Discussion >From: Michael Everson >Cc: >Subject: The Language Subtag Reviewer >It has also come to my attention that the description of Language >Subtag Reviewer's role and tasks is being discussed. > >In my opinion, the LSR should be a team, including one person who >knows about languages and linguistics, one person who deals with the >formatting and protocol matters, and one person to own and moderate >the discussion list. > >We already have this in practice, namely the team of myself, Doug >Ewell, and Harald Alvestrand. > >That team works well as far as I can see. I see two problems here: - Designing the spec to fit the current situation may work very well as long as the current situation stays as it is, but may break when the situation changes. - The above proposal does not address the question of who ultimately is making the decisions of whether to accept a tag or not. Would that still be Michael, or would that change to a majority decision? Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 13 22:11:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRIwn-0001II-6b; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:10:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRIwl-0001I4-TA for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:10:35 -0400 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRIwk-00083G-2H for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:10:35 -0400 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2E2AIE4019258 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:10:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2862_27e48958_d1d1_11db_87b8_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:10:17 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:60078) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:09:16 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070313144434.06fdb9c0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:56:25 +0900 To: Addison Phillips , Stephane Bortzmeyer From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? In-Reply-To: <45F5B8CD.40509@yahoo-inc.com> References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> <20070312085553.GA26673@nic.fr> <45F5B8CD.40509@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org My technical opinion on this issue: I prefer the XML form that we currently have. For one, it means that we don't have to change the actual data in case our proposal to go with UTF-8 for the actual registry gets shot down. At 05:32 07/03/13, Addison Phillips wrote: >UTF-16's use of surrogate pairs might not be ideal for an escaping mechanism. However, support for UTF-16 is widely available and supplemental characters are not a problem for *this given instance* of the problem. In particular, I proposed the given format because there are many tools for dealing with it "off-the-shelf". You mentioned one, you say many. In principle, one is enough, but what would the others be? >Frank makes a good point about using browsers to read XML NCRs, but I note that his approach does require dinking around with the Internet-Draft. My approach can be applied directly to the text of the I-D and then a text or stream editor used to rip out the extra matter. I'd strongly suggest they rip out the extra matter first. Probably IANA or the RFC editor have tools to do that, but I'd not want to bet on how UTF-8-safe they are. >Having IANA write a custom parser or having Doug provide a script in the I-D is less desirable (at least to me) than having a well-known tool (native2ascii, perl, etc.) that already digests the given format. After reading http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/tooldocs/solaris/native2ascii.html, my understanding is that this would have to be used like this: prompt> native2ascii -reverse -encoding UTF-8 inputfile outputfile or some such. Would these instructions go into Doug's draft, or what? >Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> But I suggest to defer this until draft-klensin-unicode-escapes-03 >> becomes approved (these questions are NOT LTRU-specific and are >> currently discussed in the Application Area). > >Why? We might be done before that draft-klensin is approved. And this issue will *disappear* forever once our document is published. [chair hat on] I strongly suggest that we don't create additional dependencies for our drafts. So I would suggests that we don't even cite draft-klensin, but just refer to the original spec of whatever we are using. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru hane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> But I suggest to defer this until draft-klensin-unicode-escapes-03 >> becomes approved (these questions are NOT LTRU-specific and are >> currently discussed in the Application Area). > >Why? We might be done before that draft-klensin is approved. And this issue will *disappear* forever once our document is published. [chair hat on] I strongly suggest that we don't create additional dependencies for our drafts. So I would suggests that we don't even cite draft-klensin, but just refer to the original spec of whatever we are using. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 13 23:02:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRJkp-0005gL-HX; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:02:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRJko-0005g6-QZ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:02:18 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRJkn-00063p-J5 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:02:18 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HRJkk-0006A6-O2; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:02:14 -0400 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:02:14 -0400 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] [everson@evertype.com: The Language Subtag Reviewer] Message-ID: <20070314030214.GA32007@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20070306163127.GD30618@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070313150924.07c51110@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070313150924.07c51110@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst scripsit: > - Designing the spec to fit the current situation may work very > well as long as the current situation stays as it is, but may > break when the situation changes. That's why I think the spec should hold the IESG-appointed LSR accountable, but allow him to delegate any and all duties except that of sending definitive adds and modifies to IANA. > - The above proposal does not address the question of who ultimately > is making the decisions of whether to accept a tag or not. > Would that still be Michael, or would that change to a majority > decision? Michael. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful. --The Hobbit _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 01:43:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMGG-0003Gl-S8; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 01:42:56 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMGE-0003B8-Iw for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 01:42:54 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMGD-0002f2-AD for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 01:42:54 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070314054250.VNVZ2272.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 05:42:50 +0000 Message-ID: <004201c765fb$9ab83a70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <00c601c76426$62d8f8f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F4D2B1.2010302@yahoo-inc.com> <20070312085553.GA26673@nic.fr> <45F5B8CD.40509@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070313144434.06fdb9c0@localhost> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: How to represent non-ASCII in Registry I-D? Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:42:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > My technical opinion on this issue: I prefer the XML form > that we currently have. For one, it means that we don't have > to change the actual data in case our proposal to go with > UTF-8 for the actual registry gets shot down. OK, given that end users are never, ever going to see whatever escaping convention we use -- only we, the IETF, the RFC Editor, and IANA will see it -- does anyone have any strong objections to keeping the same hex NCR convention we have now, but adding instructions to IANA to convert the hex NCRs to UTF-8? BTW, I would be opposed to telling IANA what tools to use to perform this task; what is important is that it be performed right. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 01:54:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMRL-0001Qc-MC; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 01:54:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMRK-0001QT-Tx for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 01:54:22 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.172]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMRJ-0005Xy-N4 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 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ZXRoaW5nIGVsc2UuIFNvIGEgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgcGEtUEsgKG9yIGxvY2FsZSBwYV9QSykKaXMgcHJv YmFibHkgYSBtaXN0YWtlLiBJcyB0aGlzIGEgZmFpciBzdGF0ZW1lbnQ/IDxiciBjbGVhcj0iYWxs Ij4KPGJyPgotLSA8YnI+Ck1hcmsgPC9zcGFuPjwvZm9udD48L3A+Cgo8L3NwYW4+PC9kaXY+PC9k aXY+Cgo8L2Rpdj4KCjwvZGl2PgoKCjxiciBjbGVhcj0iYWxsIj48L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+PC9kaXY+ PGJyPjxiciBjbGVhcj0iYWxsIj48YnI+LS0gPGJyPk1hcmsK ------=_Part_48579_22599493.1173851659284-- --===============1170376792== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1170376792==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 02:01:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMYR-0007qN-7a; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:01:43 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMYQ-0007nz-8U for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:01:42 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMYO-0006oO-8I for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:01:42 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HRMYI-000834-Ec; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:01:34 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:01:34 -0400 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Message-ID: <20070314060134.GC32007@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20703131211r20b4ee68ja6e7670b74e65c4c@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20703132254u73791c02n8b90f87273b55365@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703132254u73791c02n8b90f87273b55365@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: "iso639-2@loc.gov" , LTRU Working Group , "ISO639-3@sil.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > More than I expected, or hoped, but great information. Ok, what we'll > do is use pa-IN, with no script, since it is customarily in Guru, > and for what we had as pa-PK, figure out what is most appropriate: > I'm guessing pnb_PK once we have 4646bis. As things now stand, it would be lah-pnb-PK; of course, the 639 RA may change things around. -- If you have ever wondered if you are in hell, John Cowan it has been said, then you are on a well-traveled http://www.ccil.org/~cowan road of spiritual inquiry. If you are absolutely cowan@ccil.org sure you are in hell, however, then you must be on the Cross Bronx Expressway. --Alan Feuer, NYTimes, 2002-09-20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 02:10:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMgN-00048H-9d; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:09:55 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMgM-00048C-IQ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:09:54 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMgL-0007xP-Pp for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:09:54 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id k3so463883ugf for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:09:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rOOZS1iixst8ojYhztzRI7nHJvnhJKQVHHBPRy7yBpZrIDr6fYVt97yAnKryqYroaTRH3lkAjk0ZJE52O5XFJ8tCfECQtDVoQyayAzhSg2h8NL1DEZvkneKJUZ4QVbusUB07kKk+xgRYgOPHIrsa0XYki+AQcZ32IJjF7Q3IkI8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ZwgweNQeVGuKEt9mKaqKswTEdbo2+DobzCnA2OROLGYiumZvyXZYeHv+47Q15vQGXLyFXMI1D9FcjeLpYzWtfFOclQ/qV+4mtwP2p44zwMY7ctKLgVE5dBn4J3iGcwF7C6zGOi1+2rLI9YQm7OIY6y9JYFunAbtAsMwzhkx/pxI= Received: by 10.114.53.1 with SMTP id b1mr2750202waa.1173852591487; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703132309w44580784mca9e2de4a35f430@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:09:51 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <45F58964.3020408@yahoo-inc.com> <45F59126.248@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070312192056.GG6359@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703121643jad8276aoc80ee73245523723@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20703121825l6e500635k372e2fe4abc22738@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 093cab7b02710ff2 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73948e4d005645343fd08e813e5615ef Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0183077544==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0183077544== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_48711_25783408.1173852591418" ------=_Part_48711_25783408.1173852591418 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bogus was too strong a word, maybe arbitrary would have been better. From looking at some of them, they seem like on the order of "Canadian", meaning a collection of all the languages spoken in Canada. Useful in some applications, but for us (Google) something we probably want to stay away from. Mark On 3/12/07, Peter Constable wrote: > > Well, 639-3 doesn't anywhere suggest that the collections are bogus. It > just doesn't add anything new with regard to them. Perhaps that's because I > personally wasn't all that interested in the collections and so made no > point to incorporate them into 639-3. But as far as 639-3 is concerned, > collection IDs exist and are part of the same alpha-3 code space; they just > aren't defined in the code tables provided by 639-3. > > > > Of course a collection ID do not denote individual languages; by > definition they denote collections of languages. Whether it is useful for a > collective language ID to be used to describe the language of an information > object depends on the particular application. In the Redmond Public Library, > if they happened to have any items in Dyirbal or Lardil, they probably > wouldn't have much customer need to differentiate the languages and might > call all of them "Australian languages". But the same may not be true for > general applications of BCP47. > > > > > > Peter > > > > *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2007 6:26 PM > *To:* Peter Constable > *Cc:* ltru@lists.ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... > > > > I assume your question was for John. I have no stake either way; just > trying to understand what John was saying. My impression was that according > to ISO 639-3, all of the collections are really somewhat bogus, and > shouldn't really used for denoting languages. > > Mark > > On 3/12/07, *Peter Constable* wrote: > > IMO, that would really stretch the intended meaning of "macrolanguage". > For instance, "Afro-Asiatic languages" is a very diverse group. It would > make absolutely no sense to treat afa as a single language in any > application context I can think of. > > > > Peter > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] > *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2007 4:43 PM > *To:* John Cowan > *Cc:* Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... > > > > So are you saying that most of the collections really should have been > macro languages? > > Mark > > On 3/12/07, *John Cowan* < cowan@ccil.org> wrote: > > Frank Ellermann scripsit: > > > Addison Phillips wrote: > > > > >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages". > > >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented > > >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy' > > >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection > > >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for > > >| their inclusion in the collection. > > > > > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone > > > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here? > > > > aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this > > endless list. Some collections like "apa" are apparently related, > > if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated". > > Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups. According to > the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful > thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are: > > 1) two special cases: art = "artificial languages" and mis = > "miscellaneous > languages"; > > 2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa = "Apachean languages called > 'Apache'", bih = "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him = "Western > Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh"; > > 3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai = "North, Central, South > American Indian", paa = "Papuan", phi = "Philippine", cau = "Caucasian" > (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups). > > By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups. > I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this: > > # Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference > # to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a > # subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple > # languages, usually related. For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents > # "Chamic languages". The registry contains entries for each of the > # approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective > # subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham. > > dropping the final sentence entirely. > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan > If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by > dwarves. > --Murray Gell-Mann > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > -- > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > -- > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > -- Mark ------=_Part_48711_25783408.1173852591418 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bogus was too strong a word, maybe arbitrary would have been better. From looking at some of them, they seem like on the order of "Canadian", meaning a collection of all the languages spoken in Canada. Useful in some applications, but for us (Google) something we probably want to stay away from.

Mark

On 3/12/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

Well, 639-3 doesn't anywhere suggest that the collections are bogus. It just doesn't add anything new with regard to them. Perhaps that's because I personally wasn't all that interested in the collections and so made no point to incorporate them into 639-3. But as far as 639-3 is concerned, collection IDs exist and are part of the same alpha-3 code space; they just aren't defined in the code tables provided by 639-3.

 

Of course a collection ID do not denote individual languages; by definition they denote collections of languages. Whether it is useful for a collective language ID to be used to describe the language of an information object depends on the particular application. In the Redmond Public Library, if they happened to have any items in Dyirbal or Lardil, they probably wouldn't have much customer need to differentiate the languages and might call all of them "Australian languages". But the same may not be true for general applications of BCP47.

 

 

Peter

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 6:26 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org


Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text...

 

I assume your question was for John. I have no stake either way; just trying to understand what John was saying. My impression was that according to ISO 639-3, all of the collections are really somewhat bogus, and shouldn't really used for denoting languages.

Mark

On 3/12/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

IMO, that would really stretch the intended meaning of "macrolanguage". For instance, "Afro-Asiatic languages" is a very diverse group. It would make absolutely no sense to treat afa as a single language in any application context I can think of.

 

Peter

 

From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org ]
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 4:43 PM
To: John Cowan
Cc: Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text...

 

So are you saying that most of the collections really should have been macro languages?

Mark

On 3/12/07, John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

Frank Ellermann scripsit:

> Addison Phillips wrote:
>
> >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages".
> >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented
> >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy'
> >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection
> >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for
> >| their inclusion in the collection.
>
> > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone
> > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here?
>
> aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this
> endless list.  Some collections like "apa" are apparently related,
> if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated".

Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups.  According to
the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful
thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are:

1) two special cases: art = "artificial languages" and mis = "miscellaneous
   languages";

2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa = "Apachean languages called
   'Apache'", bih = "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him = "Western
   Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh";

3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai = "North, Central, South
   American Indian", paa = "Papuan", phi = "Philippine", cau = "Caucasian"
   (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups).

By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups.
I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this:

# Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference
# to subtags for language collections.  A "language collection" is a
# subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple
# languages, usually related.  For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents
# "Chamic languages".  The registry contains entries for each of the
# approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective
# subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham.

dropping the final sentence entirely.

--
John Cowan   cowan@ccil.org   http://ccil.org/~cowan
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarves.
        --Murray Gell-Mann

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark ------=_Part_48711_25783408.1173852591418-- --===============0183077544== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0183077544==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 02:17:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMnl-0008M5-MK; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:17:33 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMnk-0008Lq-FF for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:17:32 -0400 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMng-0001LS-72 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:17:32 -0400 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:17:27 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.185]) with mapi; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:17:27 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:17:26 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] [everson@evertype.com: The Language Subtag Reviewer] Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [everson@evertype.com: The Language Subtag Reviewer] Thread-Index: Acdl5TUj1gcidFgDQtqZnRx6Jv+YvgAFqLMQ Message-ID: References: <20070306163127.GD30618@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070313150924.07c51110@localhost> <20070314030214.GA32007@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070314030214.GA32007@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] >> - The above proposal does not address the question of who ultimately >> is making the decisions of whether to accept a tag or not. >> Would that still be Michael, or would that change to a majority >> decision? > > Michael. Well, that appears to me to be a different understanding than I have gotten= reading RFCs from 1766 on through 4646: it has always been my impression t= hat the decision process was one of rough consensus (not necessarily unanim= ous, as happens in ISO and other SDOs), and that the role of the Reviewer w= as to monitor the discussion and evaluate whether consensus had been reache= d after the two-week period was up. That's why I have always found it especially annoying when the Reviewer rej= ected a request for something like es-americas that everybody else was argu= ing was legitimate -- it seemed like the Reviewer was making a unilateral d= ecision, which I perceived to be contrary to the intent of the RFC. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 02:20:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMqk-0002Ef-GF; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:20:38 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMqj-0002EX-C8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:20:37 -0400 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMqh-0001yU-6U for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:20:37 -0400 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:20:34 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.111]) with mapi; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:20:33 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:20:31 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... Thread-Index: Acdl/2JijJstD0BDTNy+j2LqKTt+owAATonA Message-ID: References: <45F58964.3020408@yahoo-inc.com> <45F59126.248@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20070312192056.GG6359@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703121643jad8276aoc80ee73245523723@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20703121825l6e500635k372e2fe4abc22738@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20703132309w44580784mca9e2de4a35f430@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703132309w44580784mca9e2de4a35f430@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: eee8f8a810071652260f5b6c3a710e46 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1842151836==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1842151836== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D855NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D855NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you recall, I questioned the usefulness of collections for IETF language= tags while we were working on RFC 4646. I may have been overlooking some v= alid scenarios, but... Peter From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On B= ehalf Of Mark Davis Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:10 PM To: Peter Constable Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... Bogus was too strong a word, maybe arbitrary would have been better. From l= ooking at some of them, they seem like on the order of "Canadian", meaning = a collection of all the languages spoken in Canada. Useful in some applicat= ions, but for us (Google) something we probably want to stay away from. Mark On 3/12/07, Peter Constable > wrote: Well, 639-3 doesn't anywhere suggest that the collections are bogus. It jus= t doesn't add anything new with regard to them. Perhaps that's because I pe= rsonally wasn't all that interested in the collections and so made no point= to incorporate them into 639-3. But as far as 639-3 is concerned, collecti= on IDs exist and are part of the same alpha-3 code space; they just aren't = defined in the code tables provided by 639-3. Of course a collection ID do not denote individual languages; by definition= they denote collections of languages. Whether it is useful for a collectiv= e language ID to be used to describe the language of an information object = depends on the particular application. In the Redmond Public Library, if th= ey happened to have any items in Dyirbal or Lardil, they probably wouldn't = have much customer need to differentiate the languages and might call all o= f them "Australian languages". But the same may not be true for general app= lications of BCP47. Peter From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mail= to: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Beh= alf Of Mark Davis Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 6:26 PM To: Peter Constable Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... I assume your question was for John. I have no stake either way; just tryin= g to understand what John was saying. My impression was that according to I= SO 639-3, all of the collections are really somewhat bogus, and shouldn't r= eally used for denoting languages. Mark On 3/12/07, Peter Constable > wrote: IMO, that would really stretch the intended meaning of "macrolanguage". For= instance, "Afro-Asiatic languages" is a very diverse group. It would make = absolutely no sense to treat afa as a single language in any application co= ntext I can think of. Peter ________________________________ From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org ] Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 4:43 PM To: John Cowan Cc: Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text... So are you saying that most of the collections really should have been macr= o languages? Mark On 3/12/07, John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org> wrote: Frank Ellermann scripsit: > Addison Phillips wrote: > > >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages". > >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represented > >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy' > >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection > >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for > >| their inclusion in the collection. > > > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someone > > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here? > > aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this > endless list. Some collections like "apa" are apparently related, > if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated". Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups. According to the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are: 1) two special cases: art =3D "artificial languages" and mis =3D "miscellan= eous languages"; 2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa =3D "Apachean languages called 'Apache'", bih =3D "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him =3D "West= ern Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh"; 3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai =3D "North, Central, South American Indian", paa =3D "Papuan", phi =3D "Philippine", cau =3D "Cauca= sian" (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups). By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups. I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this: # Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference # to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a # subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple # languages, usually related. For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents # "Chamic languages". The registry contains entries for each of the # approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective # subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham. dropping the final sentence entirely. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan= If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarve= s. --Murray Gell-Mann _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Mark _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Mark _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Mark --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D855NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If you recall, I questioned the usefulness of collections fo= r IETF language tags while we were working on RFC 4646. I may have been overlookin= g some valid scenarios, but…

 

 

Peter

 

From: mark.edward.d= avis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:10 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text...

 

Bogus was too strong a = word, maybe arbitrary would have been better. From looking at some of them, they = seem like on the order of "Canadian", meaning a collection of all the languages spoken in Canada. Useful in some applications, but for us (Google= ) something we probably want to stay away from.

Mark

On 3/12/07, Peter Constabl= e <petercon@microsoft.com>= ; wrote:

Well, 639-3 doesn't anywh= ere suggest that the collections are bogus. It just doe= sn't add anything new with regard to them. Perhaps that's because I personally wasn't all that interested in the collections and so made no point to incorporate them into 639-3. But as far as 639-3 is concerned, collection I= Ds exist and are part of the same alpha-3 code space; they just aren't defined= in the code tables provided by 639-3.

 <= /p>

Of course a collection ID= do not denote individual languages; by definition they denote collections of languages. Whether it is useful for a collective language ID to be used to describe the language of an information object depends on the particular application. In the Redmond Public Library, if they happened to have any it= ems in Dyirbal or Lardil, they probably wouldn't have much customer need to differentiate the languages and might call all of them "Australian languages". But the same may not be true for general applications of BCP47.

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

Peter

 <= /p>

From: m= ark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 6:26 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: ltru@li= sts.ietf.org


Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text...=

 

I assume your question was for John. I ha= ve no stake either way; just trying to understand what John was saying. My impres= sion was that according to ISO 639-3, all of the collections are really somewhat bogus, and shouldn't really used for denoting languages.

Mark

On 3/12/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft= .com> wrote:

IMO, that would really stret= ch the intended meaning of "macrolanguage". For instance, "Afro-Asi= atic languages" is a very diverse group. It would make absolutely no sense = to treat afa as a single language in any application context I can think of.

 

Peter

 

From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org ]
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 4:43 PM
To: John Cowan
Cc: Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Language Collections text...

 

So are you saying that most of the collec= tions really should have been macro languages?

Mark

On 3/12/07, John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

Frank Ellermann scripsit:

> Addison Phillips wrote:
>
> >| For example, the code 'nai' represents "North American languages".
> >| The registry contains values for the specific languages represen= ted
> >| by this collective code. For example 'xxx' (language1) and 'yyy'=
> >| (language2). Note that the languages contained in a collection > >| (such as the two examples shown) are often unrelated except for<= br> > >| their inclusion in the collection.
>
> > Obviously the examples are not quite right. Could Peter (or someo= ne
> > else) suggest an appropriate example to use here?
>
> aes (Alsea) and akz (Alabama)... giving up to find more in this
> endless list.  Some collections like "apa" are apparently related,
> if that's a collection, I'm not sure about your "often unrelated".

Indeed, collections are almost always genetic subgroups.  Accordi= ng to
the Ethnologue mapping (non-normative, but the result of a lot of careful <= br> thinking), the only collections *not* mappable to genetic subgroups are:
1) two special cases: art =3D "artificial languages" and mis =3D "miscellaneous
   languages";

2) three restricted genetic subgroups: apa =3D "Apachean languages cal= led
   'Apache'", bih =3D "Bihari languages spoken in Bihar", and him =3D "Western
   Pahari languages spoken in Himal Pradesh";

3) six geographical collections: nai, cai, sai =3D "North, Central, So= uth
   American Indian", paa =3D "Papuan", phi =3D "Philippine", cau =3D "Caucasian"
   (and even these are defined as the union of genetic subgroups)= .

By contrast, there are 50-odd collections which are genetic subgroups.
I would pick one of these for an example, perhaps like this:

# Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference
# to subtags for language collections.  A "language collection" is a
# subtag derived from one of the ISO 639-2 codes that represents multiple # languages, usually related.  For example, the subtag 'cmc' represents
# "Chamic languages".  The registry contains entries fo= r each of the
# approximately 10 individual languages represented by this collective
# subtag, for example 'jra' for Jarai and 'cja' for Western Cham.

dropping the final sentence entirely.

--
John Cowan   = cowan@ccil.org   http://ccil.org/~cowan=
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarve= s.
        --Murray Gell-Mann

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
h= ttps://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
h= ttps://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
h= ttps://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D855NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============1842151836== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1842151836==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 02:22:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMsH-0002Yz-2M; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:22:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMsG-0002YJ-36 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:22:12 -0400 Received: from mailb.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRMsE-0002W0-Bw for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:22:12 -0400 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:22:09 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.111]) with mapi; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:22:09 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: John Cowan , Mark Davis Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:22:06 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Punjabi Thread-Index: Acdl/jwFZ36SSTR0R+mk8OKk4gn/fAAAsLag Message-ID: References: <30b660a20703131211r20b4ee68ja6e7670b74e65c4c@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20703132254u73791c02n8b90f87273b55365@mail.gmail.com> <20070314060134.GC32007@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070314060134.GC32007@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: "iso639-2@loc.gov" , LTRU Working Group , "ISO639-3@sil.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org If people have informed opinions regarding the entry lah, please let me kno= w. Peter -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:02 PM To: Mark Davis Cc: Peter Constable; iso639-2@loc.gov; LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis scripsit: > More than I expected, or hoped, but great information. Ok, what we'll > do is use pa-IN, with no script, since it is customarily in Guru, > and for what we had as pa-PK, figure out what is most appropriate: > I'm guessing pnb_PK once we have 4646bis. As things now stand, it would be lah-pnb-PK; of course, the 639 RA may change things around. -- If you have ever wondered if you are in hell, John Cowan it has been said, then you are on a well-traveled http://www.ccil.org/~= cowan road of spiritual inquiry. If you are absolutely cowan@ccil.org sure you are in hell, however, then you must be on the Cross Bronx Expressway. --Alan Feuer, NYTimes, 2002-09-20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 02:32:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRN22-0000ek-5l; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:32:18 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRN20-0000Vi-Td for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:32:16 -0400 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.241]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRN20-0004s2-Am for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:32:16 -0400 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d30so73992and for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:32:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ik3eopQz8VKoc2VsAAeZG1wv/rYVpUzmndkRpx029xH5qqIlXg5tN0LcmLtoWxw58forVy3Z3zNDi1HXeJY1lvb5f5EWzWDUoHaX6vb1VFe/cj+XT08tVtFyovPIvK/z1Zgvc4ucs44hGlW4vm5Ipm2Axsr3R5gkWkq+prEdC0w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=jAtQMbQVG2EVzjqtwwNxIluOY+o+b/7hdTDZElsoOJziXs9hcKPzMwuIvuu/YVpm6XvcCTQmOZJu6OhVG3FTKZqhTB3uGXZBGyY+Y+L54k3ASF1jwGSEwsPZLdKwEXI5eGoRCynbtZRKBG4vUFnnHdczRzNsNxeqmtBVU53x+tU= Received: by 10.115.17.1 with SMTP id u1mr2775523wai.1173853935621; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703132332w7262f5c6g3fee720a2ec085a7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:32:15 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] [everson@evertype.com: The Language Subtag Reviewer] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20070306163127.GD30618@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070313150924.07c51110@localhost> <20070314030214.GA32007@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3fe369a8b8359a54 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2107922048==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2107922048== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_48932_23782545.1173853935521" ------=_Part_48932_23782545.1173853935521 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For me as well. And that's why we should make the issue clearer in the text. At least one step is to have some clearly defined process for picking the best candidate, instead of simply continuing by inertia. The goal for the LSR should be to have the best person in that role, as I'm sure that you all will agree. My proposal was to have a term of 2 years, with candidates assessed as to to the degree that they are: 1. Organized, responsive, and timely 2. Polite and considerate; giving due consideration to all reasoned points of view 3. Completely familiar with all technical aspects and requirements of BCP 47 4. Aware of the usage of BCP 47 tags in practice, in HTML, HTTP, XML, &c. 5. Able to draw upon and assess the contributions of language experts in order to come to consensus. Of course, the same person could serve indefinitely as long as that person was the best of the available candidates at the start of each term. And that person might be the current LSR, although off the top of my head, I can think of a number of people who are better qualified on each of the above points. Mark On 3/13/07, Peter Constable wrote: > > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > > >> - The above proposal does not address the question of who ultimately > >> is making the decisions of whether to accept a tag or not. > >> Would that still be Michael, or would that change to a majority > >> decision? > > > > Michael. > > Well, that appears to me to be a different understanding than I have > gotten reading RFCs from 1766 on through 4646: it has always been my > impression that the decision process was one of rough consensus (not > necessarily unanimous, as happens in ISO and other SDOs), and that the role > of the Reviewer was to monitor the discussion and evaluate whether consensus > had been reached after the two-week period was up. > > That's why I have always found it especially annoying when the Reviewer > rejected a request for something like es-americas that everybody else was > arguing was legitimate -- it seemed like the Reviewer was making a > unilateral decision, which I perceived to be contrary to the intent of the > RFC. > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_48932_23782545.1173853935521 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For me as well. And that's why we should make the issue clearer in the text. At least one step is to have some clearly defined process for picking the best candidate, instead of simply continuing by inertia.

The goal for the LSR should be to have the best person in that role, as I'm sure that you all will agree. My proposal was to have a term of 2 years, with candidates assessed as to to the degree that they are:
  1. Organized, responsive, and timely
  2. Polite and considerate; giving due consideration to all reasoned points of view
  3. Completely familiar with all technical aspects and requirements of BCP 47
  4. Aware of the usage of BCP 47 tags in practice, in HTML, HTTP, XML, &c.
  5. Able to draw upon and assess the contributions of language experts in order to come to consensus.
Of course, the same person could serve indefinitely as long as that person was the best of the available candidates at the start of each term. And that person might be the current LSR, although off the top of my head, I can think of a number of people who are better qualified on each of the above points.

Mark


On 3/13/07, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]

>> - The above proposal does not address the question of who ultimately
>>   is making the decisions of whether to accept a tag or not.
>>   Would that still be Michael, or would that change to a majority
>>   decision?
>
> Michael.

Well, that appears to me to be a different understanding than I have gotten reading RFCs from 1766 on through 4646: it has always been my impression that the decision process was one of rough consensus (not necessarily unanimous, as happens in ISO and other SDOs), and that the role of the Reviewer was to monitor the discussion and evaluate whether consensus had been reached after the two-week period was up.

That's why I have always found it especially annoying when the Reviewer rejected a request for something like es-americas that everybody else was arguing was legitimate -- it seemed like the Reviewer was making a unilateral decision, which I perceived to be contrary to the intent of the RFC.



Peter

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--
Mark ------=_Part_48932_23782545.1173853935521-- --===============2107922048== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2107922048==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 02:33:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRN3M-0001ZH-3y; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:33:40 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRN3K-0001Z1-QK for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:33:38 -0400 Received: from mta15.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77] helo=mta15.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRN3J-00058J-FB for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:33:38 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070314063336.CPBV2405.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:33:36 -0400 Message-ID: <006c01c76602$b22586c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:33:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > As things now stand, it would be lah-pnb-PK; of course, the 639 RA may > change things around. If they do, I sure hope it's before we finalize our work. Maybe there is a good reason for all this delay, after all. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 02:36:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRN66-0004Ey-Ko; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:36:30 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRN65-0004Em-HZ for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:36:29 -0400 Received: from maila.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRN64-0006Ez-75 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:36:29 -0400 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:36:27 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:36:27 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:36:25 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Thread-Index: AcdmArseuW2axP5AQ5ir3pLs207OXgAAC1mA Message-ID: References: <006c01c76602$b22586c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <006c01c76602$b22586c0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I told you a while ago that this process should wait on these open issues t= o be resolved. Unfortunately, the JAC has been much slower in acting on the= m than I had expected. (Sometimes, I've been the bottleneck, but not always= .) Peter -----Original Message----- From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@adelphia.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:34 PM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi John Cowan wrote: > As things now stand, it would be lah-pnb-PK; of course, the 639 RA may > change things around. If they do, I sure hope it's before we finalize our work. Maybe there is a good reason for all this delay, after all. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 02:45:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRNEd-0000RL-L8; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:45:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRNEb-0000RA-Vo for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:45:18 -0400 Received: from mta16.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211] helo=mta16.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRNEZ-0000pz-Vb for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:45:17 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070314064506.XPRB2765.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:45:06 -0400 Message-ID: <007001c76604$4d8c9670$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:45:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Subject: [Ltru] Re: [everson@evertype.com: The Language Subtag Reviewer] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > That's why I have always found it especially annoying when the > Reviewer rejected a request for something like es-americas that > everybody else was arguing was legitimate -- it seemed like the > Reviewer was making a unilateral decision, which I perceived to be > contrary to the intent of the RFC. In that isolated instance, of course, I'm glad "es-americas" was rejected, since we now have "419" which solves the same problem in a much more systematic way. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 03:45:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRO6Y-00064u-Ja; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:41:02 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRO6X-00064Z-PA for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:41:01 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRO5t-0004zL-7i for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:40:22 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HRO5t-0005fB-IY; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:40:21 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:40:21 -0400 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] [everson@evertype.com: The Language Subtag Reviewer] Message-ID: <20070314074021.GE1509@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20070306163127.GD30618@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070313150924.07c51110@localhost> <20070314030214.GA32007@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > Well, that appears to me to be a different understanding than I have > gotten reading RFCs from 1766 on through 4646: it has always been my > impression that the decision process was one of rough consensus (not > necessarily unanimous, as happens in ISO and other SDOs), and that > the role of the Reviewer was to monitor the discussion and evaluate > whether consensus had been reached after the two-week period was up. As far as new subtag reservations are concerned, the LSR is free to reject any proposal against which significant objections have been made, *including his own*, provided the objections have been raised publicly on the list. Obviously the LSR is the judge of what is and what is not a significant objection. This process makes no mention of consensus. For updates, the procedure is said to be the same, except that the LSR decides whether there is consensus, and allows the update if there is. It is not explicitly said what the LSR does in the absence of consensus or if there is consensus to make no change. -- No, John. I want formats that are actually John Cowan useful, rather than over-featured megaliths that http://www.ccil.org/~cowan address all questions by piling on ridiculous cowan@ccil.org internal links in forms which are hideously over-complex. --Simon St. Laurent on xml-dev _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 04:31:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HROtY-0006jJ-FB; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 04:31:40 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HROtX-0006fq-8n for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 04:31:39 -0400 Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HROtU-0001OA-KS for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 04:31:39 -0400 Received: (qmail 9218 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2007 03:31:19 -0500 Received: from pool-72-75-33-113.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (72.75.33.113) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 14 Mar 2007 03:31:18 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: "'Sarmad Hussain, Dr.'" , "'Mark Davis'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" , , References: <3B848F4FAFB98A43A09D301DAA62A77809F67254@host210-2-148-28.lhr.dancom.net.pk> In-Reply-To: <3B848F4FAFB98A43A09D301DAA62A77809F67254@host210-2-148-28.lhr.dancom.net.pk> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 04:31:10 -0400 Message-ID: <00bf01c76613$1f281200$5d783600$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcdmBk9SBHLb59XxTEKbi22s7x3VggAC01Xg Content-Language: en-us X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: efc5d1db3729b4b7031f1bb5f5a30ae3 Cc: 'Nayyara Karamat' , 'Abbas Malik' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0093561446==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0093561446== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C765F1.98167200" Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C765F1.98167200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not sure if this will have gone out to the list given that Sarmad is not on LTRU (unless he just subscribed). So I'll pass it on with one thought. His question about the intended use is one I also tend to ask - if you're classifying text, that might imply one kind of categorization of the language(s); but if you're compiling a locale for localizing software, then maybe a different and broader (or "macro") conceptualization is appropriate. In each case, at least for the languages I'm more familiar with, you might reasonably come up with a different answer and use of language coding. Don From: Sarmad Hussain, Dr. [mailto:sarmad.hussain@nu.edu.pk] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:57 AM To: Don Osborn; 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov Cc: Abbas Malik; Nayyara Karamat Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi There are many more dialects of Punjabi, depending on the region within Punjab in Pakistan. What is spoken in Sargodha is much different from what is spoken in Lahore, etc. However, most agree that they are speaking Punjabi. There is some difference in vocabulary but real difference is in the pronunciation. If locale is to be sensitive to these dimensions of a language, then multiple codes need to be put in. However, if locale is just identifying the language not the dialect (sub-language? as in some cases the dialects may not be mutually understandable), then a singular locale would do. I am not sure what level locale is designed to serve? Could anybody else further elaborate on this? I am cc:ing a couple of other people, in case they want to comment. We had looked at the written version of Punjabi in Pakistan (also called Shahmukhi) for standardization purposes, and there seems to be less variety at this level. Regards, Sarmad _____ From: Don Osborn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:55 AM To: 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov Cc: Sarmad Hussain, Dr. Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Hi Mark. An addendum to your question would be what they write. Might there be a pa-PK written standard? I don't know, just asking. I will take the liberty of cc'ing the question to Dr. Sarmad Hussein of the National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences in Lahore, who also heads the PAN L10n project in Asia ( http://www.panl10n.net ), in case he has any thoughts. Don From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:12 PM To: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes: pmu Mirpur Panjabi pnb Western Panjabi pan Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue. It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro language for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (= "pa"), even as a macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale pa_PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement? -- Mark ------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C765F1.98167200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Not sure if this will have gone out to the list =  given that Sarmad is not on LTRU (unless he just subscribed). So I’ll pass it = on with one thought. His question about the intended use is one I also tend = to ask – if you’re classifying text, that might imply one kind of = categorization of the language(s); but if you’re compiling a locale for = localizing software, then maybe a different and broader (or “macro”) = conceptualization is appropriate. In each case, at least for the languages I’m more familiar with, you might reasonably come up with a different answer and = use of language coding.

 

Don

 

 

 

From:= Sarmad = Hussain, Dr. [mailto:sarmad.hussain@nu.edu.pk]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:57 AM
To: Don Osborn; 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; = ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Cc: Abbas Malik; Nayyara Karamat
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi

 

There are many more dialects of Punjabi, depending on the = region within Punjab in Pakistan.  What is spoken in Sargodha is much = different from what is spoken in Lahore, etc.  However, most agree that they = are speaking Punjabi.  There is some difference in vocabulary but real difference is in the pronunciation.  If locale is to be sensitive = to these dimensions of a language, then multiple codes need to be put in. =  However, if locale is just identifying the language not the dialect = (sub-language? as in some cases the dialects may not be mutually understandable), then a = singular locale would do.  I am not sure what level locale is designed to serve?  Could anybody else further elaborate on this?  I am = cc:ing a couple of other people, in case they want to = comment.

 

We had looked at the written version of Punjabi in Pakistan = (also called Shahmukhi) for standardization purposes, and there seems to be = less variety at this level.  

 

Regards,
Sarmad

 

From:= Don Osborn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:55 AM
To: 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Cc: Sarmad Hussain, Dr.
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi

 

Hi Mark. An addendum to your question would be what they = write. Might there be a pa-PK written standard? I don’t know, just = asking.

 

I will take the liberty of cc’ing the question to = Dr. Sarmad Hussein of the National University of Computer and Emerging = Sciences in Lahore, who also heads the PAN L10n project in Asia ( http://www.panl10n.net ), in case he = has any thoughts.

 

Don

 

 

From:= Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:12 PM
To: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi

 

I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-3 divides Punjabi into three = separate codes:

pmu    Mirpur Panjabi
pnb    Western Panjabi
pan    Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the = Ethnologue.

It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro = language for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (=3D "pa"), = even as a macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale = pa_PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement?

--
Mark

------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C765F1.98167200-- --===============0093561446== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0093561446==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 07:50:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRRzG-00081E-Cu; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:49:46 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRRzF-00080g-A3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:49:45 -0400 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRRzC-0007jv-G7 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:49:45 -0400 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2EBnbA5013088 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:49:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 290d_15956802_d222_11db_889a_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:49:36 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:41919) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:48:35 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070314183921.09254160@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:44:20 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Test suite for language tags? In-Reply-To: <30b660a20609171454k3f80374p646d156948c13535@mail.gmail.com > References: <20060802072709.GA17404@nic.fr> <20060804165720.GA24037@sources.org> <44D4AC42.79E0@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20060830093000.GA31895@nic.fr> <44F6313D.2070000@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060831201004.101ab8d0@localhost> <44F6EF0E.20602@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060901024806.109a6d90@localhost> <30b660a20609161628t22ab3c4flc81ea92f40800a09@mail.gmail.com> <20060917165050.GA29413@sources.org> <30b660a20609171454k3f80374p646d156948c13535@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hello Mark, I plan to publish my Ruby implementation of language tags (well-formed only for the moment) soon, and plan to include the file you mention below as part of the test suite that goes with it. If there should be any problem with such a publication, please tell me. BTW, everybody, many thanks for all these tests. And, before you ask, I'll post again to this list when my implementation is published. Regards, Martin. At 06:54 06/09/18, Mark Davis wrote: >That's odd. Testing in Java on the file http://unicode.org/cldr/data/tools/java/org/unicode/cldr/util/data/langtagTest.txt (which includes those cases) the only failures I get are the ones that repeat extensions (like en-a-bbb-a-ccc), which can't be tested for with regex. I don't think I'm using any regex syntax that differs between Java and Perl (there are very few instances). > >Note: I added a number of mechanically generated items to the test file. > >Mark #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 08:00:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRS9C-0002r5-HJ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:00:02 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRS9A-0002qN-Uk for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:00:00 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRS99-0001UL-MA for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:00:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0270E26C211; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:59:40 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568EA26C18B; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:59:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32AC258ED28; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:59:29 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:59:29 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Martin Duerst Message-ID: <20070314115929.GA17962@nic.fr> References: <44D4AC42.79E0@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20060830093000.GA31895@nic.fr> <44F6313D.2070000@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060831201004.101ab8d0@localhost> <44F6EF0E.20602@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060901024806.109a6d90@localhost> <30b660a20609161628t22ab3c4flc81ea92f40800a09@mail.gmail.com> <20060917165050.GA29413@sources.org> <30b660a20609171454k3f80374p646d156948c13535@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070314183921.09254160@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070314183921.09254160@localhost> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Test suite for language tags? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 06:44:20PM +0900, Martin Duerst wrote a message of 29 lines which said: > BTW, everybody, many thanks for all these tests. Using automatically generated tags is useful too: #!/bin/sh for i in `seq 1 1000`; do echo Test $i... tag=`abnfgen -s language-tag tests/langtag.abnf` YOUR-PROGRAM $tag > /dev/null if [ $? != 0 ]; then exit 1 fi done _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 11:20:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRVGs-00048j-EY; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:20:10 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRVGr-00048d-LX for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:20:09 -0400 Received: from mta3.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.181]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRVGo-0002z0-FY for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:20:09 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070314150816.BXIM2272.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:08:16 +0000 Message-ID: <002101c7664a$983a7750$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:08:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fw: errata for RFC 4646 Appendix B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Nicolas Krebs wrote: >> Appendix B says: >> >> sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian >> >> It should say: >> >> sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian) > > urn:ietf:rfc:4646 Appendix B ( > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4646#page-56 ) has indeed a missing > bracket, and urn:ietf:id:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-02 too ( > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-02#page-61 ). > > I suggest to fix this in official errata of rfc 4646, and in rfc > 4646bis. Is this appropriate for a missing parenthesis in a text description of a non-normative example? I agree that it's an error, and my experience with RFC errata is severely limited, but I tend to think of them as being more suited to errors that might affect implementations or otherwise lead to genuine misunderstanding. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 12:09:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRW2W-00010q-V2; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:09:24 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRW2W-00010l-CQ for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:09:24 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRW2V-0005Gj-1h for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:09:24 -0400 Received: from [10.72.76.133] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c133.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.133]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2EG8miu047331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:08:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fHygz5LyFDDIXfgfKjqYWgvxLhtlUFcbx3g3BWRQGxKCwPFWIiphkfB1SVBwYpAu Message-ID: <45F81E0C.5080301@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:08:44 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [everson@evertype.com: The Language Subtag Reviewer] References: <007001c76604$4d8c9670$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <007001c76604$4d8c9670$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The question before us is not Michael's performance, but what or whether to change anything about the Reviewer role in 4646bis. I think reviewing Michael's personal performance in the role is troublesome, since it verges on personal attack. After considerable thought, I think I have reached my own decision on how I think we should proceed: 1. I think we should not change anything at all about the Reviewer role in the current draft, with one exception (below). I think we made the right "design decisions". If the "implementation" is inappropriate, we should each, as individuals, take appropriate actions to improve it. For my own part this has included monitoring the ietf-languages list to see that the provisions of 4646 are generally followed and attempting to help registrants with their applications. Note: we included specific text in the current draft dealing with delegation of listmom and so forth. Official roles with separate appointments are not necessary. Why burden the IESG with them? 2. I think we should include in the provisions for the IESG's selection of the reviewer a comment period on the appointment similar to other selections in the IETF. If some feel that the reviewer selected is or is not appropriate, they should have an opportunity to provide feedback to the IESG other than the appeals process at that time. Excepting appeals to the IESG, that would be the appropriate time and forum in which to critique the current Reviewer's performance. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 12:09:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRW2r-000130-FP; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:09:45 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRW2q-00012v-EH for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:09:44 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.170]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRW2o-0005IT-2r for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:09:44 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id k3so609959ugf for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:09:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rilr34mElPX59zoR7eThqvveqcNPWG0rnlHdPtEZmoA6dtDHbQfHCeM9khdukCGcsBMcnmrvE4/02WkEfcu1uIZmVWdSUW3CTEtBBnItLiCX50KGrZWwAzdwEJ0X7S3JbkQL1/LfOrGILznkkaiU/d+zLpqWB87Z+5SbuUdYqYw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=m5vtlpuQEp/2K696BPqdg9jpqDQQpaeXLlgL8iIwW26y8Ac1Y8byKnYOokUIq2zS9le/Uf6xa0UuSnrXeBDDGBZvsb+XjolSxYFr4pfQwCoOuOW7ywPVbr12R7qHnCsnv/MTFl7chTa0g0sszp2KCX47ljNb0kRA9RuLiP+4QXY= Received: by 10.114.25.3 with SMTP id 3mr2969992way.1173888579474; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703140909x72938dafhb014a321aadac19d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:09:39 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Martin Duerst" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Test suite for language tags? In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070314183921.09254160@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060802072709.GA17404@nic.fr> <20060830093000.GA31895@nic.fr> <44F6313D.2070000@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060831201004.101ab8d0@localhost> <44F6EF0E.20602@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060901024806.109a6d90@localhost> <30b660a20609161628t22ab3c4flc81ea92f40800a09@mail.gmail.com> <20060917165050.GA29413@sources.org> <30b660a20609171454k3f80374p646d156948c13535@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070314183921.09254160@localhost> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 82cfa60a2c0b2e72 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1749529219==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1749529219== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_58490_20354500.1173888579346" ------=_Part_58490_20354500.1173888579346 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No problem at all. Mark On 3/14/07, Martin Duerst wrote: > > Hello Mark, > > I plan to publish my Ruby implementation of language tags > (well-formed only for the moment) soon, and plan to include > the file you mention below as part of the test suite that > goes with it. If there should be any problem with such a > publication, please tell me. > > BTW, everybody, many thanks for all these tests. > And, before you ask, I'll post again to this list > when my implementation is published. > > Regards, Martin. > > At 06:54 06/09/18, Mark Davis wrote: > >That's odd. Testing in Java on the file < > http://unicode.org/cldr/data/tools/java/org/unicode/cldr/util/data/langtagTest.txt > > > http://unicode.org/cldr/data/tools/java/org/unicode/cldr/util/data/langtagTest.txt(which includes those cases) the only failures I get are the ones that > repeat extensions (like en-a-bbb-a-ccc), which can't be tested for with > regex. I don't think I'm using any regex syntax that differs between Java > and Perl (there are very few instances). > > > >Note: I added a number of mechanically generated items to the test file. > > > >Mark > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > -- Mark ------=_Part_58490_20354500.1173888579346 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No problem at all.

Mark

On 3/14/07, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
Hello Mark,

I plan to publish my Ruby implementation of language tags
(well-formed only for the moment) soon, and plan to include
the file you mention below as part of the test suite that
goes with it. If there should be any problem with such a
publication, please tell me.

BTW, everybody, many thanks for all these tests.
And, before you ask, I'll post again to this list
when my implementation is published.

Regards,     Martin.

At 06:54 06/09/18, Mark Davis wrote:
>That's odd. Testing in Java on the file <http://unicode.org/cldr/data/tools/java/org/unicode/cldr/util/data/langtagTest.txt >http://unicode.org/cldr/data/tools/java/org/unicode/cldr/util/data/langtagTest.txt (which includes those cases) the only failures I get are the ones that repeat extensions (like en-a-bbb-a-ccc), which can't be tested for with regex. I don't think I'm using any regex syntax that differs between Java and Perl (there are very few instances).
>
>Note: I added a number of mechanically generated items to the test file.
>
>Mark

#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#   http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp




--
Mark ------=_Part_58490_20354500.1173888579346-- --===============1749529219== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1749529219==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 12:19:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRWCH-0008Gf-K6; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:19:29 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRWCG-0008GZ-FS for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:19:28 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRWCB-0006jF-3l for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:19:28 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so587411ugd for ; Wed, 14 Mar 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<30b660a20703140919n5332348ha9beb1ccf1b02ba8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:19:18 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi In-Reply-To: <3B848F4FAFB98A43A09D301DAA62A77809F67254@host210-2-148-28.lhr.dancom.net.pk> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3B848F4FAFB98A43A09D301DAA62A77809F67254@host210-2-148-28.lhr.dancom.net.pk> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 19401aa02c29445a X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4ec58ef3f343ebf5ac40a04538f9a6fc Cc: LTRU Working Group , Nayyara Karamat , iso639-2@loc.gov, sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com, rick@unicode.org, ISO639-3@sil.org, Abbas Malik X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0981879612==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0981879612== Content-Type: 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1HRWrv-0002gE-Tm for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:02:31 -0400 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRWrq-0008SS-Vl for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:02:31 -0400 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:02:26 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.185]) with mapi; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:02:25 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Don Osborn , "'Sarmad Hussain, Dr.'" , 'Mark Davis' , 'LTRU Working Group' , "ISO639-3@sil.org" , "iso639-2@loc.gov" Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:02:24 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Punjabi Thread-Index: AcdmBk9SBHLb59XxTEKbi22s7x3VggAC01XgABHrGKA= Message-ID: References: <3B848F4FAFB98A43A09D301DAA62A77809F67254@host210-2-148-28.lhr.dancom.net.pk> <00bf01c76613$1f281200$5d783600$@net> In-Reply-To: <00bf01c76613$1f281200$5d783600$@net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d3308915082aec5bdcb405956a0eb0ae Cc: 'Abbas Malik' , 'Nayyara Karamat' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1886070554==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1886070554== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D909NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D909NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don: Please don=92t rush to assume that this situation is similar to the kinds o= f situations you encounter in Africa with language networks that span borde= rs =96 it=92s not clear to me, at least, that this is a comparable situatio= n. All the information I=92ve seen (though by no means to I think I have a = good understanding at this point) suggests that =93Panjabi=94 spoken in Ind= ia is significantly different from =93Panjabi=94 spoken in Pakistan. (Of co= urse, the script used is different.) If there is a lot of difference, then = a broader conceptualization that encompasses both is probably *not* appropr= iate for locale data in software implementations. Of course, the challenge here is the use of a common name. Note that the sh= aring of a name does not necessarily imply a common language; it may have m= ore to do with ethnic, cultural or regional ties than with language, as is = true in the case of =93Kachin=94. Again, I don=92t know what is actually th= e case for =93Panjabi=94. (Btw, I wouldn=92t object if the governments of Pakistan or India dictated = that the standard English spelling should be specifically =93Panjabi=94 or = specifically =93Punjabi=94.) Peter ________________________________ From: Don Osborn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 1:31 AM To: 'Sarmad Hussain, Dr.'; 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil= .org; iso639-2@loc.gov Cc: 'Nayyara Karamat'; 'Abbas Malik' Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Not sure if this will have gone out to the list given that Sarmad is not o= n LTRU (unless he just subscribed). So I=92ll pass it on with one thought. = His question about the intended use is one I also tend to ask =96 if you=92= re classifying text, that might imply one kind of categorization of the lan= guage(s); but if you=92re compiling a locale for localizing software, then = maybe a different and broader (or =93macro=94) conceptualization is appropr= iate. In each case, at least for the languages I=92m more familiar with, yo= u might reasonably come up with a different answer and use of language codi= ng. Don From: Sarmad Hussain, Dr. [mailto:sarmad.hussain@nu.edu.pk] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:57 AM To: Don Osborn; 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso63= 9-2@loc.gov Cc: Abbas Malik; Nayyara Karamat Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi There are many more dialects of Punjabi, depending on the region within Pun= jab in Pakistan. What is spoken in Sargodha is much different from what is= spoken in Lahore, etc. However, most agree that they are speaking Punjabi= . There is some difference in vocabulary but real difference is in the pro= nunciation. If locale is to be sensitive to these dimensions of a language= , then multiple codes need to be put in. However, if locale is just identi= fying the language not the dialect (sub-language? as in some cases the dial= ects may not be mutually understandable), then a singular locale would do. = I am not sure what level locale is designed to serve? Could anybody else = further elaborate on this? I am cc:ing a couple of other people, in case t= hey want to comment. We had looked at the written version of Punjabi in Pakistan (also called Sh= ahmukhi) for standardization purposes, and there seems to be less variety a= t this level. Regards, Sarmad ________________________________ From: Don Osborn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:55 AM To: 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov Cc: Sarmad Hussain, Dr. Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Hi Mark. An addendum to your question would be what they write. Might there= be a pa-PK written standard? I don=92t know, just asking. I will take the liberty of cc=92ing the question to Dr. Sarmad Hussein of t= he National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences in Lahore, who als= o heads the PAN L10n project in Asia ( http://www.panl10n.net ), in case he= has any thoughts. Don From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:12 PM To: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-= 3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes: pmu Mirpur Panjabi pnb Western Panjabi pan Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue. It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro language = for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (=3D "pa"), even as a macro langu= age they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale pa_PK) is pro= bably a mistake. Is this a fair statement? -- Mark --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D909NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don:

 

Please don=92t rush to assume that t= his situation is similar to the kinds of situations you encounter in Africa wit= h language networks that span borders =96 it=92s not clear to me, at least, t= hat this is a comparable situation. All the information I=92ve seen (though by no me= ans to I think I have a good understanding at this point) suggests that =93Panjabi= =94 spoken in India is significantly different from =93Panjabi=94 spoken in Pak= istan. (Of course, the script used is different.) If there is a lot of difference, the= n a broader conceptualization that encompasses both is probably *not* appropriate for locale data in software implementations.

 

Of course, the challenge here is the= use of a common name. Note that the sharing of a name does not necessarily impl= y a common language; it may have more to do with ethnic, cultural or regional t= ies than with language, as is true in the case of =93Kachi= n=94. Again, I don=92t know what is actually the case = for =93Panjabi=94.

 

(Btw, I wouldn=92t object if the governments of Pakistan or India dictated that the stan= dard English spelling should be specifically =93Panjabi=94 or specifically =93Pu= njabi=94.)

 

 

Peter

 

From: Don Osbo= rn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2= 007 1:31 AM
To: 'Sarmad Hussain, Dr.'; '= Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Cc: 'Nayyara Karamat'; 'Abba= s Malik'
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi<= /span>

 

Not sure if th= is will have gone out to the list  given that Sarmad is not on LTRU (unle= ss he just subscribed). So I=92ll pass it on with one thought. His question ab= out the intended use is one I also tend to ask =96 if you=92re classifying text= , that might imply one kind of categorization of the language(s); but if you=92re compiling a locale for localizing software, then maybe a different and broa= der (or =93macro=94) conceptualization is appropriate. In each case, at least f= or the languages I=92m more familiar with, you might reasonably come up with a dif= ferent answer and use of language coding.

 

Don=

 

 

 

From: Sarmad H= ussain, Dr. [mailto:sarmad.hussain@nu.edu.pk]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2= 007 2:57 AM
To: Don Osborn; 'Mark Davis'= ; 'LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Cc: Abbas Malik; Nayyara Kar= amat
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi<= o:p>

 

There are many more dialects of Punjab= i, depending on the region within Punjab in Pakistan.  What is spoken in = Sargodha is much different from what is spoken in Lahore, etc.  However, most a= gree that they are speaking Punjabi.  There is some difference in vocabular= y but real difference is in the pronunciation.  If locale is to be sensi= tive to these dimensions of a language, then multiple codes need to be put in.  However, if locale is just identifying the language not the dialect (sub-language? as in some cases the dialects may not be mutually understandable), then a singular locale would do.  I am not sure what = level locale is designed to serve?  Could anybody else further elaborate on this?  I am cc:ing a couple of other people, in case they want to comm= ent.

 

We had looked at the written version o= f Punjabi in Pakistan (also called Shahmukhi) for standardization purposes, a= nd there seems to be less variety at this level.  

 

Regards,
Sarmad

 

From: Don Osbo= rn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2= 007 12:55 AM
To: 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Work= ing Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Cc: Sarmad Hussain, Dr.
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi<= /span>

 

Hi Mark. An ad= dendum to your question would be what they write. Might there be a pa-PK written standard? I don=92t know, just asking.

 

I will take th= e liberty of cc=92ing the question to Dr. Sarmad Hussein of the National Univ= ersity of Computer and Emerging Sciences in Lahore, who also heads the PAN L10n project in Asia ( http://www.panl10n.net= ), in case he has any thoughts.

 

Don=

 

 

From: Mark Dav= is [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 200= 7 3:12 PM
To: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi=

 

I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes:

pmu    Mirpur Panjabi
pnb    Western Panjabi
pan    Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue. =

It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro language = for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (=3D "pa"), even = as a macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale pa= _PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement?

--
Mark

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70F7D909NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============1886070554== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1886070554==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 14:22:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRY6i-00027e-T0; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:21:52 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRY6i-00027T-53 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:21:52 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRY6f-0006Dg-Q2 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:21:52 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HRY6O-0007Mc-Lc for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:21:32 +0100 Received: from d254104.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.254.104]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:21:32 +0100 Received: from nobody by d254104.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:21:32 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:21:04 +0100 Organization: Lines: 10 Message-ID: <45F83D10.4E5D@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <002101c7664a$983a7750$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d254104.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fw: errata for RFC 4646 Appendix B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Is this appropriate for a missing parenthesis in a text description > of a non-normative example? Yes, errata are also used for typos. The ABNF erratum (when it's submitted) is of course somewhat more interesting... :-) Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 18:04:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRba5-0001mo-7u; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:04:25 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRWh2-0005FW-GL for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:51:16 -0400 Received: from bay0-omc3-s22.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.222]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRWgv-0005cx-DW for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:51:16 -0400 Received: from BAY117-W15 ([207.46.8.50]) by bay0-omc3-s22.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:51:08 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [195.245.235.230] From: Sukhjinder Sidhu To: Mark Davis , "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:51:08 +0000 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2007 16:51:08.0716 (UTC) FILETIME=[F6CD66C0:01C76658] X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e3ebaaff3b3539efaf29ef65eea2aded X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:04:23 -0400 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Nayyara Karamat , iso639-2@loc.gov, rick@unicode.org, iso639-3@sil.org, Abbas Malik X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0278179841==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0278179841== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_f47d2115-be21-4ad8-b961-35b126a5ce2e_" --_f47d2115-be21-4ad8-b961-35b126a5ce2e_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, I think I'm going to have to disagree here. The typical, standard di= alect of Punjabi (well, as 'standard' as it has ever gotten) is Maajhi. Th= is is spoken both in Lahore, and Amritsar. Lahnda as a description for the= language tends to drift more towards Seraiki. However, if we look at Ethn= ologue: =20 http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=3Dpan http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=3DpnbWe see that Maajhi is= mentioned in both Eastern (Gurmukhi) and Western Punjabi (Shahmukhi). "St= andard" Punjabi is the same language both sides of the border. Dogri (Paha= ri), Hindko, Mirpuri, Seraiki (Multani) have never been considered standard= Punjabi dialects and some of these are already recognised as independent l= anguages (Dogri, Seraiki) for example. =20 I personally think we should keep both pa-IN (pa-Guru), pa-PK (pa-Arab) for= standard Punjabi, while allowing for the Lahnda languages (Hindko, Seraiki= etc) to be defined later with their own language codes. =20 Regards, Sukhjinder Sidhu Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:19:18 -0700From: mark.davis@icu-project.orgTo: sa= rmad.hussain@nu.edu.pkSubject: Re: [Ltru] PunjabiCC: dzo@bisharat.net; ltru= @ietf.org; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov; abbas.malik@gmail.com; Nayya= ra.Karamat@nu.edu.pk; sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com; rick@unicode.orgThanks = for your responses The key question we are faced with (in the Unicode CLDR = project) is what language tags (aka locale codes) to use for what is called= "Panjabi" in various regions. It appears that according to the meaning of = the codes as defined by ISO 639 and thus BCP 47, we should be using:=20 pa-IN for "Panjabi as generally used in India" -- and pa would customarily = use the Guru (Gurmukhi) script, so that would be suppressed in the tag lah-PK for "Panjabi as generally used in Pakistan" -- and lah would customa= rily use the Arab (Arabic) script, so that would be suppressed in the tag. = (We may need further subdivisions of lah, which we'll be able to express on= ce BCP 47 incorporates ISO 639-3 this year.)This doesn't mean that there ar= en't pa-PK users or lah-IN users -- we are just focusing above on the large= st groupings, initially. We have been using variously combinations of 'pa' = with 'Arab', 'Guru', 'PK', and 'IN', but want to make any fixes we need now= , since we are starting data submission for the next version of CLDR: see h= ttp://unicode.org/press/pr-cldr1.5s.html.We don't have a particular axe to = grind here; our concern is that we are using the right codes to denote the = right entities, according to the relevant standards. See also the ISO 639-3= Registration Authority's website:=20 http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/ http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=3Dlah http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=3DpanSee also http://www.w= 3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ for information about BCP 47. M= ark On 3/14/07, Abbas Malik wrote:=20 Dear All, =20 Firstly, if we are going to categorize a language according to the writing = systems that one language has, then Punjabi can be categorize in two ways. = One is Gurmukhi (script used for writing Punjabi in India and is derivation= of the old Indian scripts like SHARDA, LANDHA and TAKRI) and the other is = Shahmukhi (derivation of Perso-Arabic script for writing Punjabi in Pakista= n). Gurmukhi is coded as PAN. How Shahmukhi should be coded? For more detai= ls on the differences of these scripts of Punjabi, please look at the paper= "Punjabi Machine Transliteration" http://www.puran.info/pub/mgam06-01.pdf.= For a standard code page for Shahmukhi script, please look at the paper "T= owards a Unicode Compatible Punjabi Character Set" http://www.puran.info/pu= b/mgam05-01.pdf. Punjabi in India is also written in Devanagari (Hinid scri= pt). Now in the present day on internet, Punjabi has also been started to w= rite in Roman script. Thus, this is not a good way to categorize a language= that is written in two or more different ways. How this phenomenon about a= language should be handled in standards like ISO 639-3? =20 Now come to the question of dialects, one can find different Punjabi dialec= ts in Indian Punjab also, like spoken language in Amritsar (a city of India= n Punjab on boarder of Pakistan) is little different than language spoken i= n Jhalandhr (a city of Indian Punjab). Spoken Punjabi in Amritsar is very c= lose to the spoken Punjabi in Lahore. If we look at the Pakistani Punjab, t= hen these dialects are much apart that some time a person who can understan= d one dialect, may not be able to understand the other dialect 100%. Major = dialects of Punjabi are Majhi (Spoken in central Punjab, main city Lahore),= Potwari (spoken in northern Punjab, main city Jhehlem), Seraiki (spoken in= southern Punjab, main city Multan). Interestingly all of these main dialec= ts are represented with different code in ISO 639-3 standard, Majhi with PN= B (Punjabi, western), Potwari with PMU (Punjabi, Mirpuri) and Seraiki with = SKR (Seraiki). All PAN, PNB, PMU, SKR represent the language Punjabi. I am = not expert on the coding, but I think that it does not look good. There sho= uld be some way to categorize subcategories with in one language. =20 I try to make things clear. Please do not hesitate to ask more questions. I= would be very happy to answer. =20 Best regards, =20 --- M. G. Abbas MALIK Doctorant =E0 l'ED MSTII, Univ. Joseph Fourier GETALP - LIG, IMAG - campus, BP53675 385, rue de la Biblioth=E8que 38041 Grenoble Cedex 9, France Tel: +33 (0) 4 76 51 48 17 Fax: +33 (0) 4 76 44 66 75 Mob: +33 (0) 6 74 50 46 01 Mel: Abbas.Malik at imag.fr , abbas.malik at gmail.com Url: www.puran.info=20 On 3/13/07, Sarmad Hussain, Dr. wrote:=20 There are many more dialects of Punjabi, depending on the region within Pun= jab in Pakistan. What is spoken in Sargodha is much different from what is= spoken in Lahore, etc. However, most agree that they are speaking Punjabi= . There is some difference in vocabulary but real difference is in the pro= nunciation. If locale is to be sensitive to these dimensions of a language= , then multiple codes need to be put in. However, if locale is just identi= fying the language not the dialect (sub-language? as in some cases the dial= ects may not be mutually understandable), then a singular locale would do. = I am not sure what level locale is designed to serve? Could anybody else = further elaborate on this? I am cc:ing a couple of other people, in case t= hey want to comment. =20 We had looked at the written version of Punjabi in Pakistan (also called Sh= ahmukhi) for standardization purposes, and there seems to be less variety a= t this level. =20 =20 Regards,Sarmad =20 From: Don Osborn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 = 12:55 AMTo: 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@= loc.govCc: Sarmad Hussain, Dr.Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi =20 Hi Mark. An addendum to your question would be what they write. Might there= be a pa-PK written standard? I don't know, just asking.=20 =20 I will take the liberty of cc'ing the question to Dr. Sarmad Hussein of the= National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences in Lahore, who also = heads the PAN L10n project in Asia ( http://www.panl10n.net ), in case he h= as any thoughts.=20 =20 Don =20 =20 From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 1= 3, 2007 3:12 PMTo: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.govSu= bject: [Ltru] Punjabi =20 I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-= 3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes:pmu Mirpur Panjabipnb Wes= tern Panjabipan Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue. It = looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro language for= Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (=3D "pa"), even as a macro language= they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale pa_PK) is probab= ly a mistake. Is this a fair statement? -- Mark -- Mark = --_f47d2115-be21-4ad8-b961-35b126a5ce2e_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, I think I'm going to have to disagree here.  The typical, = standard dialect of Punjabi (well, as 'standard' as it has ever gotten= ) is Maajhi.  This is spoken both in Lahore, and Amritsar.  = Lahnda as a description for the language tends to drift more towards Seraik= i.  However, if we look at Ethnologue:
 
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=3Dpan=
http://w= ww.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=3Dpnb

We see that Maajh= i is mentioned in both Eastern (Gurmukhi) and Western Punjabi (Shahmuk= hi).  "Standard" Punjabi is the same language both sides of the border= .  Dogri (Pahari), Hindko, Mirpuri, Seraiki (Multani) have never = been considered standard Punjabi dialects and some of these are already rec= ognised as independent languages (Dogri, Seraiki) for example.
 
I personally think we should keep both pa-IN (pa-Guru), pa-PK (pa-Arab) for= standard Punjabi, while allowing for the Lahnda languages (Hindko, Seraiki= etc) to be defined later with their own language codes.
 
Regards,
Sukhjinder Sidhu
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:19:18 -0700
From: mark.davis@icu-project.orgTo: sarmad.hussain@nu.edu.pk
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi
CC: dzo@bi= sharat.net; ltru@ietf.org; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov; abbas.malik@= gmail.com; Nayyara.Karamat@nu.edu.pk; sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com; rick@un= icode.org

Thanks for your responses The key question we are faced wi= th (in the Unicode CLDR project) is what language tags (aka locale codes) t= o use for what is called "Panjabi" in various regions. It appears that acco= rding to the meaning of the codes as defined by ISO 639 and thus BCP 47, we= should be using:
  • pa-IN for "Panjabi as generally used in India" -- and pa would customar= ily use the Guru (Gurmukhi) script, so that would be suppressed in the tag<= /LI>
  • lah-PK for "Panjabi as generally used in Pakistan" -- and lah would cus= tomarily use the Arab (Arabic) script, so that would be suppressed in the t= ag. (We may need further subdivisions of lah, which we'll be able to expres= s once BCP 47 incorporates ISO 639-3 this year.)
This doesn't = mean that there aren't pa-PK users or lah-IN users -- we are just focusing = above on the largest groupings, initially. We have been using variously com= binations of 'pa' with 'Arab', 'Guru', 'PK', and 'IN', but want to make any= fixes we need now, since we are starting data submission for the next vers= ion of CLDR: see http://unicode.org/press/pr-cldr1.5s.html.

We don't = have a particular axe to grind here; our concern is that we are using the r= ight codes to denote the right entities, according to the relevant standard= s. See also the ISO 639-3 Registration Authority's website:
See also http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-ta= gs/ for information about BCP 47.

Mark

On 3/14/07, Abbas Malik <abbas.malik@= gmail.com> wrote:=20
Dear All,
 
Firstly, if we are going to categorize a language accordi= ng to the writing systems that one language has, then Punjabi can be catego= rize in two ways. One is Gurmukhi (script used for writing Punjabi in India= and is derivation of the old Indian scripts like SHARDA, LANDHA and TAKRI)= and the other is Shahmukhi (derivation of Perso-Arabic script for writing = Punjabi in Pakistan). Gurmukhi is coded as PAN. How Shahmukhi should be cod= ed? For more details on the differences of these scripts of Punjabi, please= look at the paper "Punjabi Machine Transliteration" http://www.puran.info/pub/mga= m06-01.pdf. For a standard code page for Shahmukhi script, please look = at the paper "Towards a Unicode Compatible Punjabi Character Set" http://www.pur= an.info/pub/mgam05-01.pdf. Punjabi in India is also written in Devanaga= ri (Hinid script). Now in the present day on internet, Punjabi has also bee= n started to write in Roman script. Thus, this is not a good way to categor= ize a language that is written in two or more different ways. How this phen= omenon about a language should be handled in standards like ISO 639-3?
 
Now come to the question of dialects, one can find differ= ent Punjabi dialects in Indian Punjab also, like spoken language in Amritsa= r (a city of Indian Punjab on boarder of Pakistan) is little different than= language spoken in Jhalandhr (a city of Indian Punjab). Spoken Punjabi in = Amritsar is very close to the spoken Punjabi in Lahore. If we look at the P= akistani Punjab, then these dialects are much apart that some time a person= who can understand one dialect, may not be able to understand the other di= alect 100%. Major dialects of Punjabi are Majhi (Spoken in central Punjab, = main city Lahore), Potwari (spoken in northern Punjab, main city Jhehlem), = Seraiki (spoken in southern Punjab, main city Multan). Interestingly all of= these main dialects are represented with different code in ISO 639-3 stand= ard, Majhi with PNB (Punjabi, western), Potwari with PMU (Punjabi, Mirpuri)= and Seraiki with SKR (Seraiki). All PAN, PNB, PMU, SKR represent the langu= age Punjabi. I am not expert on the coding, but I think that it does not lo= ok good. There should be some way to categorize subcategories with in one l= anguage.
 
I try to make things clear. Please do not hesitate to ask= more questions. I would be very happy to answer.
 
Best regards,
 
---
M. G. Abbas MALIK
Doctorant =E0 l'ED MSTII,
Univ. Joseph Fourier
GETALP - LIG, IMAG - campus,
BP5= 3675 385,  rue de la Biblioth=E8que
380= 41 Grenoble Cedex 9, France
Tel:         +33 (0) 4 76= 51 48 17
Fax:         +33 (0) 4 76= 44 66 75
Mob:      +33 (0) 6 74 50 46 01
Mel:        Abbas.Malik at imag.fr , abbas.malik at gmail.com
Url:         www.puran.info<= FONT face=3D"" size=3D2>

On 3/13/07, Sarmad Hussain, Dr. <s= armad.hussain@nu.edu.pk> wrote:=20
There are many more dialects of Punjabi, dep= ending on the region within Punjab in Pakistan.  What is spoken in Sar= godha is much different from what is spoken in Lahore, etc.  However, = most agree that they are speaking Punjabi.  There is some difference i= n vocabulary but real difference is in the pronunciation.  If locale i= s to be sensitive to these dimensions of a language, then multiple codes ne= ed to be put in.  However, if locale is just identifying the language = not the dialect (sub-language? as in some cases the dialects may not be mut= ually understandable), then a singular locale would do.  I am not sure= what level locale is designed to serve?  Could anybody else further e= laborate on this?  I am cc:ing a couple of other people, in case they = want to comment.
 
We had looked at the written version of Punj= abi in Pakistan (also called Shahmukhi) for standardization purposes, and t= here seems to be less variety at this level.  
 
Regards,
Sarmad
 
From: Don Osborn [mai= lto:dzo@bisharat.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:5= 5 AM
To: 'Mark Davis'; '= LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Cc: Sarmad Hussain, Dr.
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi
&nb= sp;
Hi Mark. An addendum to you= r question would be what they write. Might there be a pa-PK written standar= d? I don't know, just asking.
 
I will take the liberty of = cc'ing the question to Dr. Sarmad Hussein of the National University of Com= puter and Emerging Sciences in Lahore, who also heads the PAN L10n project = in Asia ( http://www.pa= nl10n.net ), in case he has any thoughts.
 
Don
 
 



-= -
Mark
= --_f47d2115-be21-4ad8-b961-35b126a5ce2e_-- --===============0278179841== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0278179841==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 18:04:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRba5-0001mk-4d; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:04:25 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRNSK-0005hh-Ph for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:59:28 -0400 Received: from [202.83.174.53] (helo=highway.nu.edu.pk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRNSJ-0005Fw-Eq for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:59:28 -0400 Received: by host210-2-148-28.lhr.dancom.net.pk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:56:56 +0500 Message-ID: <3B848F4FAFB98A43A09D301DAA62A77809F67254@host210-2-148-28.lhr.dancom.net.pk> From: "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." To: Don Osborn , 'Mark Davis' , 'LTRU Working Group' , ISO639-3@sil.org, iso639-2@loc.gov Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:56:56 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2bcdb6f0ba9636bf286b7e28ccb8bd9b X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:04:23 -0400 Cc: Nayyara Karamat , Abbas Malik X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1353400582==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --===============1353400582== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76605.F445A073" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76605.F445A073 Content-Type: text/plain There are many more dialects of Punjabi, depending on the region within Punjab in Pakistan. What is spoken in Sargodha is much different from what is spoken in Lahore, etc. However, most agree that they are speaking Punjabi. There is some difference in vocabulary but real difference is in the pronunciation. If locale is to be sensitive to these dimensions of a language, then multiple codes need to be put in. However, if locale is just identifying the language not the dialect (sub-language? as in some cases the dialects may not be mutually understandable), then a singular locale would do. I am not sure what level locale is designed to serve? Could anybody else further elaborate on this? I am cc:ing a couple of other people, in case they want to comment. We had looked at the written version of Punjabi in Pakistan (also called Shahmukhi) for standardization purposes, and there seems to be less variety at this level. Regards, Sarmad _____ From: Don Osborn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:55 AM To: 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov Cc: Sarmad Hussain, Dr. Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Hi Mark. An addendum to your question would be what they write. Might there be a pa-PK written standard? I don't know, just asking. I will take the liberty of cc'ing the question to Dr. Sarmad Hussein of the National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences in Lahore, who also heads the PAN L10n project in Asia ( http://www.panl10n.net ), in case he has any thoughts. Don From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:12 PM To: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes: pmu Mirpur Panjabi pnb Western Panjabi pan Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue. It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro language for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (= "pa"), even as a macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale pa_PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement? -- Mark ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76605.F445A073 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76605.F445A073-- --===============1353400582== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1353400582==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 18:30:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRbyp-0000Mw-H9; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:29:59 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRbyn-0000Mo-Uz for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:29:57 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRbym-00024b-J6 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:29:57 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HRbyh-0002Xy-Li; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:29:51 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:29:51 -0400 To: Sukhjinder Sidhu Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Message-ID: <20070314222951.GQ1509@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: rick@unicode.org, Nayyara Karamat , "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." , iso639-2@loc.gov, LTRU Working Group , Abbas Malik , iso639-3@sil.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sukhjinder Sidhu scripsit: > I personally think we should keep both pa-IN (pa-Guru), pa-PK (pa-Arab) > for standard Punjabi, while allowing for the Lahnda languages (Hindko, > Seraiki etc) to be defined later with their own language codes. Well, we have two standards to harmonize. One provides two distinct names (and code elements), "Panjabi" and "Lahnda". The other provides the names "Eastern Panjabi", "Western Panjabi", "Mirpur Panjabi", "Jakati", "Khetrani", "Northern Hindko", "Southern Hindko", "Seraiki", and "Pahari-Potwari". The question is, how shall the 9 names of 639-3 be mapped onto the 2 names of 639-2? The current plan is to map "Eastern Panjabi" onto "Panjabi", and all the others onto "Lahnda". It sounds like you are proposing to map both "Eastern Panjabi" and "Western Panjabi" onto "Panjabi" and the others onto "Lahnda". Is that correct? -- While staying with the Asonu, I met a man from John Cowan the Candensian plane, which is very much like cowan@ccil.org ours, only more of it consists of Toronto. http://:www.ccil.org/~cowan --Ursula K. Le Guin, Changing Planes _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 19:20:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRcln-00071Q-Ff; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:20:35 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRcQD-0000c4-FO for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:58:17 -0400 Received: from bay0-omc3-s30.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.230]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRcQ9-0006YC-5C for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:58:17 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com ([207.46.8.26]) by bay0-omc3-s30.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:58:12 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:58:12 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 87.194.38.9 by BAY117-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:58:10 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.194.38.9] X-Originating-Email: [sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com] X-Sender: sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com From: To: "John Cowan" References: <20070314222951.GQ1509@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:57:54 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2007 22:58:12.0583 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E0CCF70:01C7668C] X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:20:34 -0400 Cc: rick@unicode.org, Nayyara Karamat , "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." , iso639-2@loc.gov, LTRU Working Group , Abbas Malik , iso639-3@sil.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > The current plan is to map "Eastern Panjabi" onto "Panjabi", and all > the others onto "Lahnda". It sounds like you are proposing to map > both "Eastern Panjabi" and "Western Panjabi" onto "Panjabi" > and the others onto "Lahnda". Is that correct? No, I'm saying that a significant number (i.e. millions) of people speak "Eastern" Punjabi in Pakistan. The only major difference between this spoken language and that spoken in Indian Punjab is the written script (i.e. Shahmukhi/Gurmukhi). The sources that say that Western Punjabi and Eastern Punjabi suddenly stop at the border are simply wrong. The Maajhi dialect is centred on the border - leading to significant portions of the population speaking it on either side. Hence the need for both 'pa-IN' and 'pa-PK'. "Grierson [in the Linguistic Survey of India] defined Western Punjabi as being west of a line running north-south from Montgomery and Gujranwala districts." (This is directly from Wikipedia, but I was the original contributor for this in the article. If you wish, I can probably track down the exact page number for this, but I don't have it at hand at the moment.) This is well within present day Pakistan, and Lahore alone has nearly seven million people. Anyway, that is my take on things. I would be interested to see what NU professors/researchers think on this because I've never been to Pakistan so I could be way off base here. Regards, Sukhjinder Sidhu _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 19:20:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRcln-00071Z-LU; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:20:35 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRcac-0001Ah-LZ for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:09:02 -0400 Received: from bay0-omc1-s30.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.102]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRcaY-00086H-Ai for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:09:02 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com ([207.46.8.15]) by bay0-omc1-s30.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:08:57 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:08:57 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 87.194.38.9 by BAY117-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:08:55 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.194.38.9] X-Originating-Email: [sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com] X-Sender: sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com From: To: "John Cowan" References: <20070314222951.GQ1509@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:08:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2007 23:08:57.0856 (UTC) FILETIME=[BEA9A800:01C7668D] X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:20:34 -0400 Cc: rick@unicode.org, Nayyara Karamat , "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." , iso639-2@loc.gov, LTRU Working Group , Abbas Malik , iso639-3@sil.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [Sorry for the duplicate mail] I have actually managed to track down some relevant information from the LSI faster than I originally thought: Lahnda in the LSI: http://www.joao-roiz.jp/cgi-bin/f_LSI_mkpdf.cgi?v=8-1&ff=255&ft=255&TID=7d3770e568052ed9d2e25ba27e29950f Punjabi in the LSI: http://www.rosettaproject.org/archive/pan/detail-1/?b_start:int=1&page_view=image_view Please keep in mind that this is about 100 years old, and was made during the British Raj prior to partition. The dynamics of the area may have changes now. Regards, Sukhjinder ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Cowan" To: "Sukhjinder Sidhu" Cc: "Mark Davis" ; "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." ; "LTRU Working Group" ; "Nayyara Karamat" ; ; ; ; "Abbas Malik" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi > Sukhjinder Sidhu scripsit: > >> I personally think we should keep both pa-IN (pa-Guru), pa-PK (pa-Arab) >> for standard Punjabi, while allowing for the Lahnda languages (Hindko, >> Seraiki etc) to be defined later with their own language codes. > > Well, we have two standards to harmonize. One provides two distinct > names (and code elements), "Panjabi" and "Lahnda". The other provides > the names "Eastern Panjabi", "Western Panjabi", "Mirpur Panjabi", > "Jakati", "Khetrani", "Northern Hindko", "Southern Hindko", "Seraiki", > and "Pahari-Potwari". The question is, how shall the 9 names of 639-3 > be mapped onto the 2 names of 639-2? > > The current plan is to map "Eastern Panjabi" onto "Panjabi", and all > the others onto "Lahnda". It sounds like you are proposing to map > both "Eastern Panjabi" and "Western Panjabi" onto "Panjabi" > and the others onto "Lahnda". Is that correct? > > -- > While staying with the Asonu, I met a man from John Cowan > the Candensian plane, which is very much like cowan@ccil.org > ours, only more of it consists of Toronto. > http://:www.ccil.org/~cowan > --Ursula K. Le Guin, Changing Planes > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 19:20:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRcln-00071V-IY; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:20:35 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRcZL-00081a-Ft for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:07:43 -0400 Received: from bay0-omc2-s26.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.162]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRcZK-0007yh-5X for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:07:43 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com ([207.46.8.11]) by bay0-omc2-s26.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:07:41 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:07:41 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 87.194.38.9 by BAY117-DAV1.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:07:37 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.194.38.9] X-Originating-Email: [sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com] X-Sender: sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com From: To: "John Cowan" References: <20070314222951.GQ1509@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:07:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2007 23:07:41.0636 (UTC) FILETIME=[913B6840:01C7668D] X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:20:34 -0400 Cc: rick@unicode.org, Nayyara Karamat , "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." , iso639-2@loc.gov, LTRU Working Group , Abbas Malik , iso639-3@sil.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have actually managed to track down some relevant information from the LSI faster than I originally thought: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Cowan" To: "Sukhjinder Sidhu" Cc: "Mark Davis" ; "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." ; "LTRU Working Group" ; "Nayyara Karamat" ; ; ; ; "Abbas Malik" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi > Sukhjinder Sidhu scripsit: > >> I personally think we should keep both pa-IN (pa-Guru), pa-PK (pa-Arab) >> for standard Punjabi, while allowing for the Lahnda languages (Hindko, >> Seraiki etc) to be defined later with their own language codes. > > Well, we have two standards to harmonize. One provides two distinct > names (and code elements), "Panjabi" and "Lahnda". The other provides > the names "Eastern Panjabi", "Western Panjabi", "Mirpur Panjabi", > "Jakati", "Khetrani", "Northern Hindko", "Southern Hindko", "Seraiki", > and "Pahari-Potwari". The question is, how shall the 9 names of 639-3 > be mapped onto the 2 names of 639-2? > > The current plan is to map "Eastern Panjabi" onto "Panjabi", and all > the others onto "Lahnda". It sounds like you are proposing to map > both "Eastern Panjabi" and "Western Panjabi" onto "Panjabi" > and the others onto "Lahnda". Is that correct? > > -- > While staying with the Asonu, I met a man from John Cowan > the Candensian plane, which is very much like cowan@ccil.org > ours, only more of it consists of Toronto. > http://:www.ccil.org/~cowan > --Ursula K. Le Guin, Changing Planes > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 20:26:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRdne-0002jy-Cj; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:26:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRdnd-0002fp-6J for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:26:33 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.171]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRdnc-0004Rw-AW for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:26:33 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so104608ugd for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:26:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=gPxUCi0CakgfzGbmb4v2jZQhsBrn1iWmg6nK6GVNxZLv83GRXUTs0X5KudsXNQ5XRpHr9KSqq6tLAmj9VNxnSGc4WrHv9rV5TaaqCMZJRnLIuamHeU7hMk59L0Kb0XioiaiRaPKPh5K6aztJ4yd670LuZINfrr/N7wIRTPKVmiY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=D7uOZslB5ww6hlviFyDDggFY3A4Dhd5+i23rHIq0yBlAIvSRFJ3H9eriy4r8BqDaf15BOFa0227JCrjY2K6x/di6PzpQOkmOWyuspzSPtM5h45xgg+Esp8AcYSY84JFEecfZpxFvYf3gIKaUqSTN9binihERGtkxUpXq7Wlko6A= Received: by 10.115.77.1 with SMTP id e1mr5190wal.1173918390027; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703141726t1b1ffac7v8958e6fe0c173535@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:26:29 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "LTRU Working Group" Subject: Fwd: [Ltru] Punjabi In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703141723l6f060b9fi8f887c67dd76a513@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20070314222951.GQ1509@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703141723l6f060b9fi8f887c67dd76a513@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1b71e3bc93d6f03d X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b132cb3ed2d4be2017585bf6859e1ede X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0583633152==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0583633152== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_69419_6857157.1173918389950" ------=_Part_69419_6857157.1173918389950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This got bounced from LTRU for having too many recipients, so am forwarding. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mark Davis Date: Mar 14, 2007 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi To: "sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com" Cc: John Cowan , "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." < sarmad.hussain@nu.edu.pk>, LTRU Working Group , Nayyara Karamat , iso639-2@loc.gov, rick@unicode.org, iso639-3@sil.org, Abbas Malik , cldr-users@unicode.org A few points of clarification, since this arose with regard to CLDR. The CLDR data is divided into linguistic data and non-linguistic data, and what are called "locales" are only used for linguistic data; so in that sense CLDR locales are really collections of language data, not locale data in a POSIX sense. We use inheritance in the data model, so we only need to add script subtags when necessary (when the language is customarily written in 2 scripts), and only need to add region subtags when the language+script is in common use in more than one country AND some of the linguistic data differs between them. (Although sometimes for compatibility we add empty country locales.) So what we would need at a minimum right now is: 1. pa (containing data appropriate for pa-Guru-IN) If in the future we get data submitted for pa written in Arabic, we would add 2. pa-Arab (containing data appropriate for pa-Arab-PK) 3. pa-Guru (containing data appropriate for pa-Guru-IN) Our policy is to have each parent locale's data be what is appropriate for the most populous (measured as literate, first or second language speakers) child locale. So what we'd need to have at that point is the population of pa users (as opposed to lah) in Pakistan vs India, which would determine whether we change the contents of pa at that point. It sounds like, from what you say, that the bulk of the population of pa users (measured as literate, first or second language speakers) would be in India, while Pakistan would be more lah users than pa users. Is that the case? Mark On 3/14/07, sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com < sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > The current plan is to map "Eastern Panjabi" onto "Panjabi", and all > > the others onto "Lahnda". It sounds like you are proposing to map > > both "Eastern Panjabi" and "Western Panjabi" onto "Panjabi" > > and the others onto "Lahnda". Is that correct? > > No, I'm saying that a significant number (i.e. millions) of people speak > "Eastern" Punjabi in Pakistan. The only major difference between this > spoken language and that spoken in Indian Punjab is the written script ( > i.e. > Shahmukhi/Gurmukhi). The sources that say that Western Punjabi and > Eastern > Punjabi suddenly stop at the border are simply wrong. The Maajhi dialect > is > centred on the border - leading to significant portions of the population > speaking it on either side. Hence the need for both 'pa-IN' and 'pa-PK'. > > "Grierson [in the Linguistic Survey of India] defined Western Punjabi as > being west of a line running north-south from Montgomery and Gujranwala > districts." (This is directly from Wikipedia, but I was the original > contributor for this in the article. If you wish, I can probably track > down > the exact page number for this, but I don't have it at hand at the > moment.) > This is well within present day Pakistan, and Lahore alone has nearly > seven > million people. > > Anyway, that is my take on things. I would be interested to see what NU > professors/researchers think on this because I've never been to Pakistan > so > I could be way off base here. > > Regards, > Sukhjinder Sidhu > > -- Mark -- Mark ------=_Part_69419_6857157.1173918389950 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This got bounced from LTRU for having too many recipients, so am forwarding.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mark Davis < mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Date: Mar 14, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi
To: "sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com" < sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com>
Cc: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>, "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." <sarmad.hussain@nu.edu.pk >, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Nayyara Karamat <nayyara.karamat@nu.edu.pk>, iso639-2@loc.gov , rick@unicode.org, iso639-3@sil.org, Abbas Malik <abbas.malik@gmail.com>, cldr-users@unicode.org

A few points of clarification, since this arose with regard to CLDR. The CLDR data is divided into linguistic data and non-linguistic data, and what are called "locales" are only used for linguistic data; so in that sense CLDR locales are really collections of language data, not locale data in a POSIX sense. We use inheritance in the data model, so we only need to add script subtags when necessary (when the language is customarily written in 2 scripts), and only need to add region subtags when the language+script is in common use in more than one country AND some of the linguistic data differs between them. (Although sometimes for compatibility we add empty country locales.) So what we would need at a minimum right now is:

1. pa (containing data appropriate for pa-Guru-IN)

If in the future we get data submitted for pa written in Arabic, we would add

2. pa-Arab (containing data appropriate for pa-Arab-PK)
3. pa-Guru (containing data appropriate for pa-Guru-IN)

Our policy is to have each parent locale's data be what is appropriate for the most populous (measured as literate, first or second language speakers) child locale. So what we'd need to have at that point is the population of pa users (as opposed to lah) in Pakistan vs India, which would determine whether we change the contents of pa at that point. It sounds like, from what you say, that the bulk of the population of pa users (measured as literate, first or second language speakers) would be in India, while Pakistan would be more lah users than pa users. Is that the case?

Mark


On 3/14/07, sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com < sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The current plan is to map "Eastern Panjabi" onto "Panjabi", and all
> the others onto "Lahnda".  It sounds like you are proposing to map
> both "Eastern Panjabi" and "Western Panjabi" onto "Panjabi"
> and the others onto "Lahnda".  Is that correct?

No, I'm saying that a significant number (i.e. millions) of people speak
"Eastern" Punjabi in Pakistan.  The only major difference between this
spoken language and that spoken in Indian Punjab is the written script ( i.e.
Shahmukhi/Gurmukhi).  The sources that say that Western Punjabi and Eastern
Punjabi suddenly stop at the border are simply wrong.  The Maajhi dialect is
centred on the border - leading to significant portions of the population
speaking it on either side.  Hence the need for both 'pa-IN' and 'pa-PK'.

"Grierson [in the Linguistic Survey of India] defined Western Punjabi as
being west of a line running north-south from Montgomery and Gujranwala
districts." (This is directly from Wikipedia, but I was the original
contributor for this in the article. If you wish, I can probably track down
the exact page number for this, but I don't have it at hand at the moment.)
This is well within present day Pakistan, and Lahore alone has nearly seven
million people.

Anyway, that is my take on things.  I would be interested to see what NU
professors/researchers think on this because I've never been to Pakistan so
I could be way off base here.

Regards,
Sukhjinder Sidhu




--
Mark

--
Mark ------=_Part_69419_6857157.1173918389950-- --===============0583633152== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0583633152==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 19:27:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRzLJ-0002Rw-11; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:26:45 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRzLH-0002Rm-NU for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:26:43 -0400 Received: from mta17.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.99] helo=mta17.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRzLF-00082r-DD for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:26:43 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070315230912.FQOK2196.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:09:12 -0400 Message-ID: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:09:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Subject: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org As someone who's posted off-topic to this list several times, including many times when ietf-languages was a more suitable target, I confess not knowing how this discussion affects our project to update RFC 4646 and 4645. All of the current and future language subtags in the Registry are there because they are defined in ISO 639, and they have the primary/extended groupings that ISO 639 gives them (except "sgn", which is a special case). We don't change these. I can think of a few broad courses of action stemming from this discussion, but none involves the LTRU WG: 1. The meanings and/or macrolanguage groupings associated with Panjabi and/or Lahnda are not adequately representative of reality, and need to be changed or clarified. This should be brought to the ISO 639-3/RA at iso639-3@sil.org. 2. The subtags "pa" and/or "lah" should have comments attached to them that might help ensure correct usage. This should be brought to ietf-languages@iana.org. 3. Something about CLDR needs to be changed or re-examined. This should be brought to the CLDR Technical Committee; see http://www.unicode.org/cldr/ for information. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 21:00:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HS0oQ-0003zE-Aw; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:00:54 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HReL4-000686-9B for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:01:06 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.173]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HReL0-0004K0-R6 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:01:06 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so114449ugd for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:01:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:subject:date:mime-version:content-type:x-mailer:thread-index:x-mimeole:message-id; b=pneSwLBFD/9y8FJl0lJyj/NLjttA01odJEzyGGHIWppeAQRpaKNpNhCkhLngcfIhJB1aQJCgX/iA1GgGrXk608Ux2AISLKQopcrHcmgu7MJCPxTcDF/2eX6Nh9n6vIVStcvXWgb/PfsA4JVipDYsYu9IPrKPfYBr1H3Y1mkglBs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:from:to:subject:date:mime-version:content-type:x-mailer:thread-index:x-mimeole:message-id; b=MCIQ88L0icWbtPG0DFpNqgLlh8tIMjSOAemzaBh7csROkqtX6pcJW2O50Ii+nHqXoR2P30QIdP1tKdDji2TXV82oSf7HrAXl2CQk+fMXxLSJR/qk0VtNnxefimojFoyCjPOM9tJjfg3bTR2YxGS1V9FYRVQRl6YcASdwMm1Luzg= Received: by 10.78.106.3 with SMTP id e3mr23338huc.1173920460563; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laptopmalik ( [86.68.60.198]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id j2sm43638mue.2007.03.14.18.00.51; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:00:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Abbas Malik" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" , , , , "'Nayyara Karamat'" , "'Sarmad Hussain, Dr.'" , "'Mark Davis'" , "'John Cowan'" , "'Don Osborn'" , Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:00:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcdmnWAJx/tdbRIXRB+8i+qeOeGRvw== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Message-ID: <45f89acb.19132e7b.51ea.037e@mx.google.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c119f9923e40f08a1d7f390ce651ea92 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:00:53 -0400 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2125631435==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2125631435== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C766A5.C8E66D90" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C766A5.C8E66D90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, =20 I personally support Mr. Sukhjinder Sidhu=92s suggestion that we should = take PA-IN (Gurmukhi) and PA-PK (Shahmukhi). These code names are being = developed for Unicode and according to my best knowledge Unicode is a writing = standard for world=92s languages. As far as Punjabi is concerned, it is two main writing systems one is Gurmukhi (0A00 =96 0A7F) and Shahmukhi = (represented in Arabic code page). =20 Mr. John Cowan talked about =93Eastern Panjabi=94, =93Western = Panjabi=94, =93Mirpu Panjabi=94, =93Hindko=94, =93Seraiki=94, =93Pahari - Potwari=94. I have = been working on the European Union funded project named PLATT (Punjabi Language and Transliteration Tool) to build a transliteration tool that can = transliterate Shahmukhi into Gurmukhi and vice versa. I have been in touch with = persons from Indian Punjab (Writers, Poets, Professors, etc.) and know a lot of writers, poets, professors from Pakistan as being a Pakistani. Punjabi = is my mother tongue. It was a little back ground. =20 According my best knowledge, Mirpur Panjabi and Pahari-Potwari are one = and the same dialect of Panjabi. One other thing is that Seraiki=92s and = Pahari=92s so called leaders claim that Seraiki and Pahari are different languages = than that of Punjabi. I have closely worked with Pahari speaking people and I found no difference between Punjabi and Pahari. Let me quote an = interesting example, one leading person (I do not want to disclose his name) who = claims that Pahari is different from Punjabi. His father always calls himself =93Panjabi Tagga=94 (mean bull of Punjab) and he never called =93Pahari = Tagga=94. Other main point is that he always wanted me to build one version of the Punjabi transliteration tool that can convert Pahari in Gurmukhi and = vice versa and I always said to him that Gurmukhi is Punjabi then why you = want to have transliteration tool between Pahari and Punjabi (Gurmukhi). For Seraiki, I have a very little interaction with Seraiki people, but they = also unable to give answers of my simple and straight forward questions in a straight way and always talk about the language politics (For details = one can read the book =93Language Politics in Pakistan=94 by Dr. Tariq = Rahman, a great scholar). Spokenly, Seraiki, Jataki, Majhi, Pahari are different = but when they are written they are same. All these points are my personal experience and knowledge. I could be wrong at certain points. Any way my point is that for the CLDR project, PA-GURU and PA-ARAB are two best = tags to represent the Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi. If Seraiki, Pahari and Hindko are different languages even then the two tags mentioned earlier are good options for Punjabi. =20 Best regards, =20 --- M. G. Abbas MALIK Doctorant =E0 l'ED MSTII, Univ. Joseph Fourier GETALP - LIG, IMAG - campus, BP53675 385, rue de la Biblioth=E8que 38041 Grenoble Cedex 9, France Tel: +33 (0) 4 76 51 48 17 Fax: +33 (0) 4 76 44 66 75 Mob: +33 (0) 6 74 50 46 01 Mel: Abbas.Malik at imag.fr, abbas.malik at gmail.com Url: www.puran.info =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C766A5.C8E66D90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,

 

I personally support Mr. Sukhjinder = Sidhu’s suggestion that we should take PA-IN (Gurmukhi) and PA-PK (Shahmukhi). These code = names are being developed for Unicode and according to my best knowledge = Unicode is a writing standard for world’s languages. As far as Punjabi is = concerned, it is two main writing systems one is Gurmukhi (0A00 – 0A7F) and Shahmukhi (represented in Arabic code = page).

 

Mr. John Cowan talked about “Eastern = Panjabi”, “Western Panjabi”, “Mirpu Panjabi”, = “Hindko”, “Seraiki”, “Pahari - Potwari”. I have been = working on the European Union funded project named PLATT (Punjabi Language and = Transliteration Tool) to build a transliteration tool that can transliterate Shahmukhi = into Gurmukhi and vice versa. I have been in touch with persons from Indian = Punjab (Writers, Poets, Professors, etc.) and know a lot of writers, poets, professors = from Pakistan as being a Pakistani. Punjabi is my mother tongue. It was a little back = ground.

 

According my best knowledge, Mirpur Panjabi = and Pahari-Potwari are one and the same dialect of Panjabi. One other thing = is that Seraiki’s and Pahari’s so called leaders claim that Seraiki = and Pahari are different languages than that of Punjabi. I have closely = worked with Pahari speaking people and I found no difference between Punjabi and = Pahari. Let me quote an interesting example, one leading person (I do not want to = disclose his name) who claims that Pahari is different from Punjabi. His father = always calls himself “Panjabi Tagga” (mean bull of Punjab) and he never called “Pahari Tagga”. Other main point is that = he always wanted me to build one version of the Punjabi transliteration tool that = can convert Pahari in Gurmukhi and vice versa and I always said to him that Gurmukhi is Punjabi then why you want to have transliteration tool = between Pahari and Punjabi (Gurmukhi). For Seraiki, I have a very little = interaction with Seraiki people, but they also unable to give answers of my simple and = straight forward questions in a straight way and always talk about the language = politics (For details one can read the book “Language Politics in = Pakistan” by Dr. Tariq Rahman, a great scholar). Spokenly, Seraiki, Jataki, Majhi, = Pahari are different but when they are written they are same. All these points = are my personal experience and knowledge. I could be wrong at certain points. = Any way my point is that for the CLDR project, PA-GURU and PA-ARAB are two best = tags to represent the Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi. If Seraiki, Pahari and Hindko are different languages even then the two tags mentioned earlier are good = options for Punjabi.

 

Best regards,

 

---

M. G. Abbas = MALIK

Doctorant =E0 l'ED MSTII,

Univ. Joseph = Fourier

GETALP - LIG, IMAG - = campus,

BP53675 385,  rue de la = Biblioth=E8que

38041 Grenoble Cedex 9, France

Tel:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +33 (0) 4 76 51 = 48 17

Fax:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +33 (0) 4 76 44 = 66 75

Mob:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +33 (0) 6 74 50 46 = 01

Mel:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Abbas.Malik at = imag.fr, abbas.malik at gmail.com

Url:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = www.puran.info

 

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C766A5.C8E66D90-- --===============2125631435== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2125631435==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 21:01:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HS0ow-0004VM-L2; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:01:26 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRfcY-0003Pe-75 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:23:14 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRfcW-0006Za-W6 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:23:14 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HRfcI-0000hb-Pn; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:22:58 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:22:58 -0400 To: Abbas Malik Message-ID: <20070315022258.GR1509@mercury.ccil.org> References: <45f89acb.19132e7b.51ea.037e@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45f89acb.19132e7b.51ea.037e@mx.google.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:01:25 -0400 Cc: rick@unicode.org, 'Nayyara Karamat' , "'Sarmad Hussain, Dr.'" , iso639-2@loc.gov, cldr-users@unicode.org, 'LTRU Working Group' , iso639-3@sil.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Abbas Malik scripsit: > Spokenly, Seraiki, Jataki, Majhi, Pahari are different but > when they are written they are same. ISO 639-3 language tags are (a) founded on spoken languages, and (b) tend toward fine splitting rather than lumping. Fortunately, their use will be entirely optional. -- "The serene chaos that is Courage, and the phenomenon cowan@ccil.org of Unopened Consciousness have been known to the John Cowan Great World eons longer than Extaboulism." "Why is that?" the woman inquired. "Because I just made that word up", the Master said wisely. --Kehlog Albran, The Profit http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 21:02:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HS0pX-0004xd-2M; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:02:03 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRdkt-00014P-ST for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:23:43 -0400 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.231]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRdkt-0003es-1f for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:23:43 -0400 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so348868wra for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:23:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=jZycxbIErFlPfoM9VrVRH73sSHLgaMEIG4k9MIMnUVVvKyt4NFC4x2JbPOKEzIyM9t8GrGHUOBRTiYN2x/sB120Uzvg5/BuFiCGsgNGCxf0sODWHl0nzV7Uo9qLCEWa90hIOHa1zEzgqeA8EO9FfY8v8DSenzGqkOUjxv+f+x+k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=IF+5ajB2T4klI9GQmQCI/UAWmDiMf4pj6mct9MJ8sJCAPv3gCjByONaZ8AYeTrW+4GDxzlYfqJ6bRGVQn68QerQIme4Kw85ZJjPbltX2jo2Jsne9vdnBzPAJ0w9HVUGSAft4PUl0B3l3roXsQE8XQ/s9sFJfnmuRhu4MnoiR60Y= Received: by 10.115.108.1 with SMTP id k1mr3242580wam.1173918219476; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703141723l6f060b9fi8f887c67dd76a513@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:23:39 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20070314222951.GQ1509@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b7c283cceb2f8bb5 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:02:02 -0400 Cc: rick@unicode.org, Nayyara Karamat , "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." , iso639-2@loc.gov, cldr-users@unicode.org, LTRU Working Group , Abbas Malik , iso639-3@sil.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1781171013==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1781171013== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_69371_24562262.1173918219410" ------=_Part_69371_24562262.1173918219410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A few points of clarification, since this arose with regard to CLDR. The CLDR data is divided into linguistic data and non-linguistic data, and what are called "locales" are only used for linguistic data; so in that sense CLDR locales are really collections of language data, not locale data in a POSIX sense. We use inheritance in the data model, so we only need to add script subtags when necessary (when the language is customarily written in 2 scripts), and only need to add region subtags when the language+script is in common use in more than one country AND some of the linguistic data differs between them. (Although sometimes for compatibility we add empty country locales.) So what we would need at a minimum right now is: 1. pa (containing data appropriate for pa-Guru-IN) If in the future we get data submitted for pa written in Arabic, we would add 2. pa-Arab (containing data appropriate for pa-Arab-PK) 3. pa-Guru (containing data appropriate for pa-Guru-IN) Our policy is to have each parent locale's data be what is appropriate for the most populous (measured as literate, first or second language speakers) child locale. So what we'd need to have at that point is the population of pa users (as opposed to lah) in Pakistan vs India, which would determine whether we change the contents of pa at that point. It sounds like, from what you say, that the bulk of the population of pa users (measured as literate, first or second language speakers) would be in India, while Pakistan would be more lah users than pa users. Is that the case? Mark On 3/14/07, sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com wrote: > > > The current plan is to map "Eastern Panjabi" onto "Panjabi", and all > > the others onto "Lahnda". It sounds like you are proposing to map > > both "Eastern Panjabi" and "Western Panjabi" onto "Panjabi" > > and the others onto "Lahnda". Is that correct? > > No, I'm saying that a significant number (i.e. millions) of people speak > "Eastern" Punjabi in Pakistan. The only major difference between this > spoken language and that spoken in Indian Punjab is the written script ( > i.e. > Shahmukhi/Gurmukhi). The sources that say that Western Punjabi and > Eastern > Punjabi suddenly stop at the border are simply wrong. The Maajhi dialect > is > centred on the border - leading to significant portions of the population > speaking it on either side. Hence the need for both 'pa-IN' and 'pa-PK'. > > "Grierson [in the Linguistic Survey of India] defined Western Punjabi as > being west of a line running north-south from Montgomery and Gujranwala > districts." (This is directly from Wikipedia, but I was the original > contributor for this in the article. If you wish, I can probably track > down > the exact page number for this, but I don't have it at hand at the > moment.) > This is well within present day Pakistan, and Lahore alone has nearly > seven > million people. > > Anyway, that is my take on things. I would be interested to see what NU > professors/researchers think on this because I've never been to Pakistan > so > I could be way off base here. > > Regards, > Sukhjinder Sidhu > > -- Mark ------=_Part_69371_24562262.1173918219410 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A few points of clarification, since this arose with regard to CLDR. The CLDR data is divided into linguistic data and non-linguistic data, and what are called "locales" are only used for linguistic data; so in that sense CLDR locales are really collections of language data, not locale data in a POSIX sense. We use inheritance in the data model, so we only need to add script subtags when necessary (when the language is customarily written in 2 scripts), and only need to add region subtags when the language+script is in common use in more than one country AND some of the linguistic data differs between them. (Although sometimes for compatibility we add empty country locales.) So what we would need at a minimum right now is:

1. pa (containing data appropriate for pa-Guru-IN)

If in the future we get data submitted for pa written in Arabic, we would add

2. pa-Arab (containing data appropriate for pa-Arab-PK)
3. pa-Guru (containing data appropriate for pa-Guru-IN)

Our policy is to have each parent locale's data be what is appropriate for the most populous (measured as literate, first or second language speakers) child locale. So what we'd need to have at that point is the population of pa users (as opposed to lah) in Pakistan vs India, which would determine whether we change the contents of pa at that point. It sounds like, from what you say, that the bulk of the population of pa users (measured as literate, first or second language speakers) would be in India, while Pakistan would be more lah users than pa users. Is that the case?

Mark

On 3/14/07, sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com < sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The current plan is to map "Eastern Panjabi" onto "Panjabi", and all
> the others onto "Lahnda".  It sounds like you are proposing to map
> both "Eastern Panjabi" and "Western Panjabi" onto "Panjabi"
> and the others onto "Lahnda".  Is that correct?

No, I'm saying that a significant number (i.e. millions) of people speak
"Eastern" Punjabi in Pakistan.  The only major difference between this
spoken language and that spoken in Indian Punjab is the written script ( i.e.
Shahmukhi/Gurmukhi).  The sources that say that Western Punjabi and Eastern
Punjabi suddenly stop at the border are simply wrong.  The Maajhi dialect is
centred on the border - leading to significant portions of the population
speaking it on either side.  Hence the need for both 'pa-IN' and 'pa-PK'.

"Grierson [in the Linguistic Survey of India] defined Western Punjabi as
being west of a line running north-south from Montgomery and Gujranwala
districts." (This is directly from Wikipedia, but I was the original
contributor for this in the article. If you wish, I can probably track down
the exact page number for this, but I don't have it at hand at the moment.)
This is well within present day Pakistan, and Lahore alone has nearly seven
million people.

Anyway, that is my take on things.  I would be interested to see what NU
professors/researchers think on this because I've never been to Pakistan so
I could be way off base here.

Regards,
Sukhjinder Sidhu




--
Mark ------=_Part_69371_24562262.1173918219410-- --===============1781171013== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1781171013==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 21:03:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HS0qa-0005gc-P6; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:03:08 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRqNo-0001E3-PB for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:52:44 -0400 Received: from bay0-omc1-s16.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.88]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRqNk-00039m-GJ for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:52:44 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com ([207.46.8.24]) by bay0-omc1-s16.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:52:40 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:52:39 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 87.194.38.9 by BAY117-DAV14.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:52:35 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.194.38.9] X-Originating-Email: [sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com] X-Sender: sukhjinder_sidhu@hotmail.com From: To: "Mark Davis" References: <20070314222951.GQ1509@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703141723l6f060b9fi8f887c67dd76a513@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:52:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2007 13:52:39.0895 (UTC) FILETIME=[3242BE70:01C76709] X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:03:07 -0400 Cc: rick@unicode.org, Nayyara Karamat , "Sarmad Hussain, Dr." , iso639-2@loc.gov, cldr-users@unicode.org, LTRU Working Group , Abbas Malik , iso639-3@sil.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Our policy is to have each parent locale's data be what is appropriate for > the most populous (measured as literate, first or second language > speakers) > child locale. So what we'd need to have at that point is the population of > pa users (as opposed to lah) in Pakistan vs India, which would determine > whether we change the contents of pa at that point. It sounds like, from > what you say, that the bulk of the population of pa users (measured as > literate, first or second language speakers) would be in India, while > Pakistan would be more lah users than pa users. Is that the case? Yes that's correct. Neither "Lahnda" nor Punjabi are taught formally in Pakistan Punjab. Only Urdu and English. Regards, Sukhjinder _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 16 16:06:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSIge-0006oT-W7; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:06:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSIgd-0006oO-IP for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:06:03 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.169]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSIga-0004IB-Sc for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:06:03 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so722580ugd for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:06:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=S+xVeIzWPHZhtVFT667K+hhTkERVf6f60ZRp34/a6mxs/Jr65wElrvJAPfx+9+Iu7CpX1c4F+Veb9IFuOdYR56h+Q1kzTCTlYI2rNglk46IzzQhzpndDOe6NSXv18yBvUwhxMhaE87+Bxmn1kVigFEvb+8/5YsYFJII1zgECpAc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=sactM8q99QfBrs1Afgm2ceZuNNNz5IC8JYmB6FeV8va2gjAcUSr33CxVskG1yavzc5vR/qtrvyoIN8rukALpw/h7Jge6sqJ7KJqIxPr0dEUT9fSU/SPFCiY90Qa1bOmyUeITfGV2j0J2zMKdRWz3e+ZbXWw8G/S/YssNfU/+3Vs= Received: by 10.114.46.1 with SMTP id t1mr879655wat.1174075558889; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:05:58 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi In-Reply-To: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: f84501ecec9e6682 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1b0e72ff1bbd457ceef31828f216a86 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0566437339==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0566437339== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_115172_33412850.1174075558817" ------=_Part_115172_33412850.1174075558817 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It is, in fact, quite relevant to what we are doing. I have had more and more trepidations about the way in which we are thinking of using extlang. The one and only purpose of having the more complicated "zh-cmn" in place of just plain "cmn" is to get matching behavior without hitting the repository (or a local store of it). That is, if I have access to repository data, then it is clearly possible for me to do a match so that "cmn-CN" falls back to "cmn" and then to "zh"; I don't need to burden the language tag itself with data that is redundant with information in the repository. It is only if I don't have access to the data that it is an issue. My concerns are that we are baking into place a hierarchy that may, in actual practice, be cumbersome and not that useful. We are already not making use of the macrolanguages that are in ISO 639-1/2, like no and sh, and there are other cases where fallback behavior != macrolanguage, either always or often. We just ran into one: vls (Vlaams) wants to naturally fallback to nl (Dutch/Flemish) in doing lookup. And part of the issue with "pa" is that it means Panjabi in ISO 639-1, which for most people encompasses the items grouped under lah. This is not in any way meant as a criticism of the ISO 639-3 committee; I have been quite impressed with how well they have handled a very tough problem. But what I am concerned about is baking in a fallback that may vary quite significantly according to application, just to avoid hitting the repository, when it would be simpler to just use all the ISO 639-3 languages as the first tag, just like we do for ISO 639-1/2. Mark On 3/15/07, Doug Ewell wrote: > > As someone who's posted off-topic to this list several times, including > many times when ietf-languages was a more suitable target, I confess not > knowing how this discussion affects our project to update RFC 4646 and > 4645. All of the current and future language subtags in the Registry > are there because they are defined in ISO 639, and they have the > primary/extended groupings that ISO 639 gives them (except "sgn", which > is a special case). We don't change these. > > I can think of a few broad courses of action stemming from this > discussion, but none involves the LTRU WG: > > 1. The meanings and/or macrolanguage groupings associated with Panjabi > and/or Lahnda are not adequately representative of reality, and need to > be changed or clarified. This should be brought to the ISO 639-3/RA at > iso639-3@sil.org. > > 2. The subtags "pa" and/or "lah" should have comments attached to them > that might help ensure correct usage. This should be brought to > ietf-languages@iana.org. > > 3. Something about CLDR needs to be changed or re-examined. This > should be brought to the CLDR Technical Committee; see > http://www.unicode.org/cldr/ for information. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_115172_33412850.1174075558817 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It is, in fact, quite relevant to what we are doing.

I have had more and more trepidations about the way in which we are thinking of using extlang. The one and only purpose of having the more complicated "zh-cmn" in place of just plain "cmn" is to get matching behavior without hitting the repository (or a local store of it). That is, if I have access to repository data, then it is clearly possible for me to do a match so that "cmn-CN" falls back to "cmn" and then to "zh"; I don't need to burden the language tag itself with data that is redundant with information in the repository. It is only if I don't have access to the data that it is an issue.

My concerns are that we are baking into place a hierarchy that may, in actual practice, be cumbersome and not that useful. We are already not making use of the macrolanguages that are in ISO 639-1/2, like no and sh, and there are other cases where fallback behavior != macrolanguage, either always or often. We just ran into one: vls (Vlaams) wants to naturally fallback to nl (Dutch/Flemish) in doing lookup. And part of the issue with "pa" is that it means Panjabi in ISO 639-1, which for most people encompasses the items grouped under lah.

This is not in any way meant as a criticism of the ISO 639-3 committee; I have been quite impressed with how well they have handled a very tough problem. But what I am concerned about is baking in a fallback that may vary quite significantly according to application, just to avoid hitting the repository, when it would be simpler to just use all the ISO 639-3 languages as the first tag, just like we do for ISO 639-1/2.

Mark


On 3/15/07, Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net> wrote:
As someone who's posted off-topic to this list several times, including
many times when ietf-languages was a more suitable target, I confess not
knowing how this discussion affects our project to update RFC 4646 and
4645.  All of the current and future language subtags in the Registry
are there because they are defined in ISO 639, and they have the
primary/extended groupings that ISO 639 gives them (except "sgn", which
is a special case).  We don't change these.

I can think of a few broad courses of action stemming from this
discussion, but none involves the LTRU WG:

1.  The meanings and/or macrolanguage groupings associated with Panjabi
and/or Lahnda are not adequately representative of reality, and need to
be changed or clarified.  This should be brought to the ISO 639-3/RA at
iso639-3@sil.org.

2.  The subtags "pa" and/or "lah" should have comments attached to them
that might help ensure correct usage.  This should be brought to
ietf-languages@iana.org.

3.  Something about CLDR needs to be changed or re-examined.  This
should be brought to the CLDR Technical Committee; see
http://www.unicode.org/cldr/ for information.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_115172_33412850.1174075558817-- --===============0566437339== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0566437339==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 16 17:05:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSJbt-0000NN-FH; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:05:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSJbs-0000NH-Qf for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:05:12 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSJbp-0007QD-Ic for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:05:12 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HSJbp-000108-EN; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:05:09 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:05:09 -0400 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Message-ID: <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > My concerns are that we are baking into place a hierarchy that may, in > actual practice, be cumbersome and not that useful. I understand the concern, but I point out that we don't know what the scope of actual practice will be. For the first time we are extending language tagging to languages that either don't exist in written form at all, or are "written" by writing some closely related language. This opens up a whole new set of hitherto unknown applications. -- I am expressing my opinion. When my John Cowan honorable and gallant friend is called, cowan@ccil.org he will express his opinion. This is http://www.ccil.org/~cowan the process which we call Debate. --Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 16 18:37:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSL3E-0004Vt-18; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:37:32 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSL3D-0004Vl-Ht for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:37:31 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSL3B-0003qu-I7 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:37:31 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so749160ugd for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:37:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=CGtT1eqHwg7jthBYIeZUrhriSAw54/fcFSYfrrovO9U5Lvkh64miV+TN/d2Eq+nFLLnBZk/I5OFLjrNOtZvQSAR02zl4veVYyz58/LueCeCDj7tn0oWY4dw3sF74D7yu2vooeJaypZll+gbkO2FV8x95ow7yiz93P4pPF+elyR0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=OOkkFTAhp3/sGGEALxhz3SaisX8ZvKFGWLi1W9oopdnI6jq1lS6VzVJ83ikWxidxz6pE3i8Y5FpI5zeQ4jmqwyGixP9GP8LoudEkfLIlnwrJU5VcLp0kyluc/ounqKJ7c6a4WmOOe9ORX/YwcL5LP+OFcDNbvJZTzMVh6kyyQZA= Received: by 10.115.106.7 with SMTP id i7mr912641wam.1174084647765; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:37:27 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi In-Reply-To: <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b4242d4f927fea20 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0111094095==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0111094095== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_117950_21374150.1174084647670" ------=_Part_117950_21374150.1174084647670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, and it concerns me that we are baking in a particular view of the world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in conjunction with others (eg pmu can only be used with lah-pmu). Now maybe I'm missing something, can you articulate the reasons why we must use lah-pmu (for example) instead of just pmu? Mark On 3/16/07, John Cowan wrote: > > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > My concerns are that we are baking into place a hierarchy that may, in > > actual practice, be cumbersome and not that useful. > > I understand the concern, but I point out that we don't know what the > scope of actual practice will be. For the first time we are extending > language tagging to languages that either don't exist in written form at > all, or are "written" by writing some closely related language. > This opens up a whole new set of hitherto unknown applications. > > -- > I am expressing my opinion. When my John Cowan > honorable and gallant friend is called, cowan@ccil.org > he will express his opinion. This is http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > the process which we call Debate. --Winston Churchill > -- Mark ------=_Part_117950_21374150.1174084647670 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, and it concerns me that we are baking in a particular view of the world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in conjunction with others (eg pmu can only be used with lah-pmu). Now maybe I'm missing something, can you articulate the reasons why we must use lah-pmu (for example) instead of just pmu?

Mark

On 3/16/07, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> My concerns are that we are baking into place a hierarchy that may, in
> actual practice, be cumbersome and not that useful.

I understand the concern, but I point out that we don't know what the
scope of actual practice will be.  For the first time we are extending
language tagging to languages that either don't exist in written form at
all, or are "written" by writing some closely related language.
This opens up a whole new set of hitherto unknown applications.

--
I am expressing my opinion.  When my            John Cowan
honorable and gallant friend is called,         cowan@ccil.org
he will express his opinion.  This is           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
the process which we call Debate.                   --Winston Churchill



--
Mark ------=_Part_117950_21374150.1174084647670-- --===============0111094095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0111094095==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 16 19:04:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSLTI-0003fD-BI; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:04:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSLTH-0003f7-8s for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:04:27 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSLTF-000846-Tz for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:04:27 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2GN3ru3039074 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:03:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=c2spMAj8M0VGTVfT+DPyBdV4OCx0DaKDKceRSy+Q4zp3aeSDUs7ryeuDzfSH4fEt Message-ID: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:03:53 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > Yes, and it concerns me that we are baking in a particular view of the > world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in > conjunction with others (eg pmu can only be used with lah-pmu). Now > maybe I'm missing something, can you articulate the reasons why we must > use lah-pmu (for example) instead of just pmu? > The reasons are all procedural: any ISO 639-3 code that is contained by a macro-language and is not previously encoded by ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2 must be an extlang whose Prefix is the macro-language code. This allows us to piggyback on ISO 639-3's work in this area to create tags such as zh-cmn and avoid naked 'cmn' language tags without having, ourselves, to squint at the lists and make separate, possibly unreasonable, decisions. One possible way to avoid this would be to limit the "automatic" creation of mappings to those languages that have ISO 639-1 codes. This greatly limits the impact. The problem here is that it is arbitrary (why Aymara and not Baluchi? why Cree and not Delaware?) To respond to Doug's point, I think that we are not *forced* to delay RFC 4646bis or even 4645bis's appearance. What we need are clear rules for the incorporation of ISO 639-3 into the registry scheme. This *could* take the form of a Big Bang insertion. But it would certainly be valid to insert only the language (and not the extlang) codes initially or to include only the finalized and stable extlang codes when they are mature---on a different day. I would suggest that a mechanism for doing this would be to take each macro-language, as a collection, and vet the contents with the RA and on-list with ietf-languages before doing an insert. The Chinese and Arabic collections probably get in straight-away. Lahnda's subtags (by way of example) could wait---and no one is hurt by that delay. The only hurt is getting the mapping wrong. Worst case we have some languages that could have been extlangs that become primary language subtags instead. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 16 19:18:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSLgO-0004s6-4I; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:18:00 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSLgN-0004rl-AG for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:17:59 -0400 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.230]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSLgM-0000zG-UI for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:17:59 -0400 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 37so729518wra for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:17:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=IGQ+0yT8f5EZdGMcdBh7rOmIIrFNVLpZl+VJ/Kl9KZTQa5iGvDb5VdxhqiZsDTsIuGmmFjT+WDsxvtTqK/yRmVIGkFbhTPuSxZPWpOugF3+I0nLdQ6iI7HQ7X8okttKX9PRg6bPt0dLNM30NmNJB43+QsSEXgbKQ8ajYl01VwIE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=tMKCl+GnIU6HS8rBAPeT0Ik/ZHVXNqzpNqrqFQx+TWTT+KnmZFGs0JmcJihlcG48m6XImrJeh8RSa8393STa0zwPcyuyQcHMzWPbK8qp/0Ry+x8sEzQMF4Lc02WT/C3FPM7aoCDFd/RDBehM/b2QMkHxY5Y4fyAzkNwEaE7yxRc= Received: by 10.114.80.4 with SMTP id d4mr928564wab.1174087077949; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:17:57 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi In-Reply-To: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6d5991fe66c1d325 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1b0e72ff1bbd457ceef31828f216a86 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1805665605==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1805665605== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_118738_12931070.1174087077874" ------=_Part_118738_12931070.1174087077874 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I must not be clearly stating my point. Let me try again. I'm getting at the fundamental reasoning behind extlang at all. I'm not arguing that we should use different DATA than ISO 639-3 in order to decide what are extlangs and what are not. What I'm saying is: why do we need the extlang construction at all? Why do we need to have zh-cmn instead of just cmn? > Worst case we have some languages that could have been extlangs that become primary language subtags instead. That is: Why don't we simply have *all* languages be primary language subtags instead of extlangs? What do extlangs buy us, that we need the complication that they introduce? Mark On 3/16/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > > > Mark Davis wrote: > > Yes, and it concerns me that we are baking in a particular view of the > > world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in > > conjunction with others (eg pmu can only be used with lah-pmu). Now > > maybe I'm missing something, can you articulate the reasons why we must > > use lah-pmu (for example) instead of just pmu? > > > > The reasons are all procedural: any ISO 639-3 code that is contained by > a macro-language and is not previously encoded by ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2 > must be an extlang whose Prefix is the macro-language code. > > This allows us to piggyback on ISO 639-3's work in this area to create > tags such as zh-cmn and avoid naked 'cmn' language tags without having, > ourselves, to squint at the lists and make separate, possibly > unreasonable, decisions. > > One possible way to avoid this would be to limit the "automatic" > creation of mappings to those languages that have ISO 639-1 codes. This > greatly limits the impact. The problem here is that it is arbitrary (why > Aymara and not Baluchi? why Cree and not Delaware?) > > To respond to Doug's point, I think that we are not *forced* to delay > RFC 4646bis or even 4645bis's appearance. What we need are clear rules > for the incorporation of ISO 639-3 into the registry scheme. This > *could* take the form of a Big Bang insertion. But it would certainly be > valid to insert only the language (and not the extlang) codes initially > or to include only the finalized and stable extlang codes when they are > mature---on a different day. > > I would suggest that a mechanism for doing this would be to take each > macro-language, as a collection, and vet the contents with the RA and > on-list with ietf-languages before doing an insert. The Chinese and > Arabic collections probably get in straight-away. Lahnda's subtags (by > way of example) could wait---and no one is hurt by that delay. The only > hurt is getting the mapping wrong. Worst case we have some languages > that could have been extlangs that become primary language subtags > instead. > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > -- Mark ------=_Part_118738_12931070.1174087077874 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I must not be clearly stating my point. Let me try again.

I'm getting at the fundamental reasoning behind extlang at all. I'm not arguing that we should use different DATA than ISO 639-3 in order to decide what are extlangs and what are not. What I'm saying is: why do we need the extlang construction at all? Why do we need to have zh-cmn instead of just cmn?

> Worst case we have some languages that could have been extlangs that become primary language subtags instead.

That is: Why don't we simply have *all* languages be primary language subtags instead of extlangs? What do extlangs buy us, that we need the complication that they introduce?

Mark

On 3/16/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:


Mark Davis wrote:
> Yes, and it concerns me that we are baking in a particular view of the
> world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in
> conjunction with others (eg pmu can only be used with lah-pmu). Now
> maybe I'm missing something, can you articulate the reasons why we must
> use lah-pmu (for example) instead of just pmu?
>

The reasons are all procedural: any ISO 639-3 code that is contained by
a macro-language and is not previously encoded by ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2
must be an extlang whose Prefix is the macro-language code.

This allows us to piggyback on ISO 639-3's work in this area to create
tags such as zh-cmn and avoid naked 'cmn' language tags without having,
ourselves, to squint at the lists and make separate, possibly
unreasonable, decisions.

One possible way to avoid this would be to limit the "automatic"
creation of mappings to those languages that have ISO 639-1 codes. This
greatly limits the impact. The problem here is that it is arbitrary (why
Aymara and not Baluchi? why Cree and not Delaware?)

To respond to Doug's point, I think that we are not *forced* to delay
RFC 4646bis or even 4645bis's appearance. What we need are clear rules
for the incorporation of ISO 639-3 into the registry scheme. This
*could* take the form of a Big Bang insertion. But it would certainly be
valid to insert only the language (and not the extlang) codes initially
or to include only the finalized and stable extlang codes when they are
mature---on a different day.

I would suggest that a mechanism for doing this would be to take each
macro-language, as a collection, and vet the contents with the RA and
on-list with ietf-languages before doing an insert. The Chinese and
Arabic collections probably get in straight-away. Lahnda's subtags (by
way of example) could wait---and no one is hurt by that delay. The only
hurt is getting the mapping wrong. Worst case we have some languages
that could have been extlangs that become primary language subtags instead.

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.



--
Mark ------=_Part_118738_12931070.1174087077874-- --===============1805665605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1805665605==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 16 19:47:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSM8C-0000VI-AD; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:46:44 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSM8A-0000VC-OE for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:46:42 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSM89-0004vk-9i for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:46:42 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2GNkMup061673 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:46:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fmUAVOSZHtZ2itICRAU2nSX4bdOwKP1aFJ9HxH61n8FMDPOHyw2tOgC5J/L9rqA3 Message-ID: <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:46:22 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org What extlangs buys us is: for languages that are already tagged, the current primary language subtags remain consistently the primary language subtag of choice. You might add additional subtags, but you don't have to retag all of your content. Thus "zh-Hans-CN" is still valid. You would not (could not) retag with "cmn-Hans-CN". You might retag with "zh-cmn-Hans-CN", but this interferes less drastically with matching than outright change of the primary subtag. What we want are consistent choices for language tags. One alternative would be to allow both "zh-cmn" and "cmn". Users would have to be careful to use these consistently in their content and range selection. Another alternative would be to forget extlang altogether and permit *either* "zh" *or* "cmn" but not both in the same tag (except by grandfathering). This frees the extlang up for other, nefarious, purposes. My surmise is that macro-languages are a one-time event: "discovery" of future macro-languages will mostly be prohibited by rule (since most of the languages will already have codes in the "primary" position when they become part of a macro-language collection). If my surmise is correct, we could ban future extlang additions and use the remainder of that namespace for (well) nefarious purposes. The only exception to my surmise would be: a language not previously given a code that is part of an existing macro-language. A language that isn't currently a macro-language that receives a new sublanguage would be a problem (all of the macro-languages are, by definition, one-to-many mappings). That is, the sub languages always travel in (at least) pairs. Does that make sense? Addison Mark Davis wrote: > I must not be clearly stating my point. Let me try again. > > I'm getting at the fundamental reasoning behind extlang at all. I'm not > arguing that we should use different DATA than ISO 639-3 in order to > decide what are extlangs and what are not. What I'm saying is: why do we > need the extlang construction at all? Why do we need to have zh-cmn > instead of just cmn? > > > Worst case we have some languages that could have been extlangs that > become primary language subtags instead. > > That is: Why don't we simply have *all* languages be primary language > subtags instead of extlangs? What do extlangs buy us, that we need the > complication that they introduce? > > Mark > > On 3/16/07, *Addison Phillips* > wrote: > > > > Mark Davis wrote: > > Yes, and it concerns me that we are baking in a particular view > of the > > world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in > > conjunction with others (eg pmu can only be used with lah-pmu). Now > > maybe I'm missing something, can you articulate the reasons why > we must > > use lah-pmu (for example) instead of just pmu? > > > > The reasons are all procedural: any ISO 639-3 code that is contained by > a macro-language and is not previously encoded by ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2 > must be an extlang whose Prefix is the macro-language code. > > This allows us to piggyback on ISO 639-3's work in this area to create > tags such as zh-cmn and avoid naked 'cmn' language tags without having, > ourselves, to squint at the lists and make separate, possibly > unreasonable, decisions. > > One possible way to avoid this would be to limit the "automatic" > creation of mappings to those languages that have ISO 639-1 codes. This > greatly limits the impact. The problem here is that it is arbitrary (why > Aymara and not Baluchi? why Cree and not Delaware?) > > To respond to Doug's point, I think that we are not *forced* to delay > RFC 4646bis or even 4645bis's appearance. What we need are clear rules > for the incorporation of ISO 639-3 into the registry scheme. This > *could* take the form of a Big Bang insertion. But it would > certainly be > valid to insert only the language (and not the extlang) codes initially > or to include only the finalized and stable extlang codes when they are > mature---on a different day. > > I would suggest that a mechanism for doing this would be to take each > macro-language, as a collection, and vet the contents with the RA and > on-list with ietf-languages before doing an insert. The Chinese and > Arabic collections probably get in straight-away. Lahnda's subtags (by > way of example) could wait---and no one is hurt by that delay. The only > hurt is getting the mapping wrong. Worst case we have some languages > that could have been extlangs that become primary language subtags > instead. > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > > > > -- > Mark -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 16 20:34:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSMsC-0008CW-Tk; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:34:16 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSMsB-0008CQ-Nz for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:34:16 -0400 Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201] helo=kabissa.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSMsA-00043G-Dv for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:34:15 -0400 Received: (qmail 10795 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2007 19:34:01 -0500 Received: from pool-71-252-39-214.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (71.252.39.214) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 16 Mar 2007 19:34:01 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , "'Mark Davis'" References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> In-Reply-To: <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:33:51 -0400 Message-ID: <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcdoJWyxMes10817RSKUJDp47IqDHwAAIMdw Content-Language: en-us X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Cc: 'Doug Ewell' , 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is getting interesting but tricky. I think John's point... "we don't know what the scope of actual practice will be. For the first = time we are extending language tagging to languages that either don't = exist in written form at all, or are "written" by writing some closely = related language. This opens up a whole new set of hitherto unknown applications." ...was on target. I also concur with Mark's unease with "baking" in a = certain approach, given the potential alternative needs. I would say = "flexibility" here but that got me into trouble before. Re Addison's explanations, replies in text... > -----Original Message----- > From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com] ... >=20 > What we want are consistent choices for language tags. >=20 > One alternative would be to allow both "zh-cmn" and "cmn". Users would > have to be careful to use these consistently in their content and = range > selection. In effect cmn would "map" to zh? I wonder if the existence of the codes = doesn't pretty much guarantee that some people will, for whatever = reason, use the language code without attention to the macrolanguage = code. One would have to consider this possibility and provide for it. = Hence this seems to be a good idea. > Another alternative would be to forget extlang altogether and permit > *either* "zh" *or* "cmn" but not both in the same tag (except by > grandfathering). This frees the extlang up for other, nefarious, > purposes. But presumably there is a relationship between zh and cmn? What about = permitting all three options? This goes back to the ff examples. IOW one = could tag the macrolanguage, or the language, or both. The latter two = having the same function.=20 For some languages at least, I wonder if removing the extlang = relationship wouldn't lead to some confusion. On the other hand, if = overlapping locales and the possibility of alternative tagging being = used for essentially the same thing is not a problem, then maybe this = could work. > My surmise is that macro-languages are a one-time event: "discovery" = of > future macro-languages will mostly be prohibited by rule (since most = of > the languages will already have codes in the "primary" position when > they become part of a macro-language collection). If my surmise is > correct, we could ban future extlang additions and use the remainder = of > that namespace for (well) nefarious purposes. Don't agree here. I think there are de facto macrolanguages out there = without the title that may need new codes and the extlang relationships = with other 639-3 or even 639-1/2 coded (sub)languages that those would = imply (Runyakitara, Oshiwambo, and Beti are examples of possibilities, = from my understanding of descriptions). At the very least, the door = should not be closed. It is a truism that language is changing, but for a number of languages = there are factors (per John's comment) that are still not clear or are = more "changeable" than the ones we have more experience with in ICT. Don _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 16 21:06:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSNMv-0002mB-72; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:06:01 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSNMu-0002kw-4x for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:06:00 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.173]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSNMt-0001tL-6c for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:06:00 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so768842ugd for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:05:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Shq7hkeJaopuA3lNDDQrxR6+JcFZed4wtj0Iju8sY5EXQcXyPW6Z1WoqCfDA3ibTTG8iAznNfovmh4E9e/3w/0sdWbk7ZBhqdttNTZosMsyJoWK4uzNRy/lCnHQGX2apO1i9Xl14tNDDsAKmV9cgOSJsUFfHOFD4HAhiSuWPH/4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ujNGMdDgqUM6+QvUcD2dkToepxE/sh5SvMRVsiv/BXg6YgpeIa0e23Cm8tTqAu0slGcluycSm+wf2qOdy77Q2V/l6GK1M7CxUvcVzaztR1ewEP/Ac3d70GtzHQQfAuhbbAqV2Seg4R7PKQVyyCZBDGCnnIhNCxiJ7Z1deOINGvQ= Received: by 10.114.170.1 with SMTP id s1mr968621wae.1174093557401; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703161805v631af4d4p79936e0381c547a9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:05:57 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi In-Reply-To: <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a99887cc0c402592 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f8184d7d4d1b986353eb58ea3e887935 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1576953754==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1576953754== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_120170_13816931.1174093557103" ------=_Part_120170_13816931.1174093557103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > You might retag with "zh-cmn-Hans-CN", but this interferes less drastically with matching than outright change of the primary subtag. This is the crux of the matter, whether this is in fact true. We've all been sort-of assuming that it is, but our goal at the time of 4646 was to make sure that we had some structure to accommodate the possibility in case we wanted it, long before we'd really take hard looks at the pros and cons. In order to establish whether this statement is true or not, I think we need to walk through some of the scenarios, and see how important it is in practice. I'll take a crack at a few cases, although I think we need a more extensive look. Filtering, No Extlang Model Let's suppose that I have content tagged with the following: #1 zh-Hant-HK #2 zh-Hans-HK #3 yue-SG If I basic filter for zh, I'll get #1 and #2. With just a bit smarter filter, using information from ISO 639 (maybe put into our registry), I'll also match #3. If I search with zh-Hant, I'll get #1 in either case. If I search for yue, I'll get just #3. Filtering, Extlang Model #1 zh-Hant-HK #2 zh-Hans-HK #3 zh-yue-SG If I search for content matching zh, I don't have to use the "bit smarter" filter. Otherwise the same. Lookup, No extlang Model #1 cmn-Hant-HK #2 cmn-Hant #3 cmn #4 yue-Hant-HK #5 yue-Hant #6 yue #7 zh If I request zh-Hans-CN, I'll fall all the way back to zh. If I didn't have #7, I'd fail, unless I had some smarts to do an alias to cmn. If I request yue-Hans, I'd fallback to yue. Lookup, Extlang Model #1 zh-cmn-Hant-HK #2 zh-cmn-Hant #3 zh-cmn #4 zh-yue-Hant-HK #5 zh-yue-Hant #6 zh-yue #7 zh If I request zh-Hans-CN, I'll fall all the way back to zh. If I didn't have #7, I'd fail, unless I had some smarts to do an alias to cmn. If I request zh-yue-Hans, I'd fallback to zh-yue. I'm not seeing a lot of difference here, but I certainly haven't explored all the possibilities. We need to try some more scenarios to see where we have some compelling differences. In particular, we need to look at cases where we are looking up where the target has cmns or yues and the key doesn't, and vice versa. Mark On 3/16/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > What extlangs buys us is: for languages that are already tagged, the > current primary language subtags remain consistently the primary > language subtag of choice. You might add additional subtags, but you > don't have to retag all of your content. > > Thus "zh-Hans-CN" is still valid. You would not (could not) retag with > "cmn-Hans-CN". You might retag with "zh-cmn-Hans-CN", but this > interferes less drastically with matching than outright change of the > primary subtag. > > What we want are consistent choices for language tags. > > One alternative would be to allow both "zh-cmn" and "cmn". Users would > have to be careful to use these consistently in their content and range > selection. > > Another alternative would be to forget extlang altogether and permit > *either* "zh" *or* "cmn" but not both in the same tag (except by > grandfathering). This frees the extlang up for other, nefarious, purposes. > > My surmise is that macro-languages are a one-time event: "discovery" of > future macro-languages will mostly be prohibited by rule (since most of > the languages will already have codes in the "primary" position when > they become part of a macro-language collection). If my surmise is > correct, we could ban future extlang additions and use the remainder of > that namespace for (well) nefarious purposes. > > The only exception to my surmise would be: a language not previously > given a code that is part of an existing macro-language. A language that > isn't currently a macro-language that receives a new sublanguage would > be a problem (all of the macro-languages are, by definition, one-to-many > mappings). That is, the sub languages always travel in (at least) pairs. > > Does that make sense? > > Addison > > Mark Davis wrote: > > I must not be clearly stating my point. Let me try again. > > > > I'm getting at the fundamental reasoning behind extlang at all. I'm not > > arguing that we should use different DATA than ISO 639-3 in order to > > decide what are extlangs and what are not. What I'm saying is: why do we > > need the extlang construction at all? Why do we need to have zh-cmn > > instead of just cmn? > > > > > Worst case we have some languages that could have been extlangs that > > become primary language subtags instead. > > > > That is: Why don't we simply have *all* languages be primary language > > subtags instead of extlangs? What do extlangs buy us, that we need the > > complication that they introduce? > > > > Mark > > > > On 3/16/07, *Addison Phillips* > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Mark Davis wrote: > > > Yes, and it concerns me that we are baking in a particular view > > of the > > > world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in > > > conjunction with others (eg pmu can only be used with lah-pmu). > Now > > > maybe I'm missing something, can you articulate the reasons why > > we must > > > use lah-pmu (for example) instead of just pmu? > > > > > > > The reasons are all procedural: any ISO 639-3 code that is contained > by > > a macro-language and is not previously encoded by ISO 639-1 or ISO > 639-2 > > must be an extlang whose Prefix is the macro-language code. > > > > This allows us to piggyback on ISO 639-3's work in this area to > create > > tags such as zh-cmn and avoid naked 'cmn' language tags without > having, > > ourselves, to squint at the lists and make separate, possibly > > unreasonable, decisions. > > > > One possible way to avoid this would be to limit the "automatic" > > creation of mappings to those languages that have ISO 639-1 codes. > This > > greatly limits the impact. The problem here is that it is arbitrary > (why > > Aymara and not Baluchi? why Cree and not Delaware?) > > > > To respond to Doug's point, I think that we are not *forced* to > delay > > RFC 4646bis or even 4645bis's appearance. What we need are clear > rules > > for the incorporation of ISO 639-3 into the registry scheme. This > > *could* take the form of a Big Bang insertion. But it would > > certainly be > > valid to insert only the language (and not the extlang) codes > initially > > or to include only the finalized and stable extlang codes when they > are > > mature---on a different day. > > > > I would suggest that a mechanism for doing this would be to take > each > > macro-language, as a collection, and vet the contents with the RA > and > > on-list with ietf-languages before doing an insert. The Chinese and > > Arabic collections probably get in straight-away. Lahnda's subtags > (by > > way of example) could wait---and no one is hurt by that delay. The > only > > hurt is getting the mapping wrong. Worst case we have some languages > > that could have been extlangs that become primary language subtags > > instead. > > > > Addison > > > > -- > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > > > Internationalization is an architecture. > > It is not a feature. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mark > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > -- Mark ------=_Part_120170_13816931.1174093557103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > You might retag with "zh-cmn-Hans-CN", but this interferes less drastically with matching than outright change of the primary subtag.

This is the crux of the matter, whether this is in fact true. We've all been sort-of assuming that it is, but our goal at the time of 4646 was to make sure that we had some structure to accommodate the possibility in case we wanted it, long before we'd really take hard looks at the pros and cons. In order to establish whether this statement is true or not, I think we need to walk through some of the scenarios, and see how important it is in practice. I'll take a crack at a few cases, although I think we need a more extensive look.

Filtering, No Extlang Model

Let's suppose that I have content tagged with the following:

#1 zh-Hant-HK
#2 zh-Hans-HK
#3 yue-SG

If I basic filter for zh, I'll get #1 and #2. With just a bit smarter filter, using information from ISO 639 (maybe put into our registry), I'll also match #3. If I search with zh-Hant, I'll get #1 in either case. If I search for yue, I'll get just #3.

Filtering, Extlang Model

#1 zh-Hant-HK
#2 zh-Hans-HK
#3 zh-yue-SG

If I search for content matching zh, I don't have to use the "bit smarter" filter. Otherwise the same.

Lookup, No extlang Model

#1 cmn-Hant-HK
#2 cmn-Hant
#3 cmn
#4 yue-Hant-HK
#5 yue-Hant
#6 yue
#7 zh

If I request zh-Hans-CN, I'll fall all the way back to zh. If I didn't have #7, I'd fail, unless I had some smarts to do an alias to cmn. If I request yue-Hans, I'd fallback to yue.

Lookup, Extlang Model

#1 zh-cmn-Hant-HK
#2 zh-cmn-Hant
#3 zh-cmn
#4 zh-yue-Hant-HK
#5 zh-yue-Hant
#6 zh-yue
#7 zh

If I request zh-Hans-CN, I'll fall all the way back to zh. If I didn't have #7, I'd fail, unless I had some smarts to do an alias to cmn. If I request zh-yue-Hans, I'd fallback to zh-yue.

I'm not seeing a lot of difference here, but I certainly haven't explored all the possibilities. We need to try some more scenarios to see where we have some compelling differences. In particular, we need to look at cases where we are looking up where the target has cmns or yues and the key doesn't, and vice versa.

Mark

On 3/16/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
What extlangs buys us is: for languages that are already tagged, the
current primary language subtags remain consistently the primary
language subtag of choice. You might add additional subtags, but you
don't have to retag all of your content.

Thus "zh-Hans-CN" is still valid. You would not (could not) retag with
"cmn-Hans-CN". You might retag with "zh-cmn-Hans-CN", but this
interferes less drastically with matching than outright change of the
primary subtag.

What we want are consistent choices for language tags.

One alternative would be to allow both "zh-cmn" and "cmn". Users would
have to be careful to use these consistently in their content and range
selection.

Another alternative would be to forget extlang altogether and permit
*either* "zh" *or* "cmn" but not both in the same tag (except by
grandfathering). This frees the extlang up for other, nefarious, purposes.

My surmise is that macro-languages are a one-time event: "discovery" of
future macro-languages will mostly be prohibited by rule (since most of
the languages will already have codes in the "primary" position when
they become part of a macro-language collection). If my surmise is
correct, we could ban future extlang additions and use the remainder of
that namespace for (well) nefarious purposes.

The only exception to my surmise would be: a language not previously
given a code that is part of an existing macro-language. A language that
isn't currently a macro-language that receives a new sublanguage would
be a problem (all of the macro-languages are, by definition, one-to-many
mappings). That is, the sub languages always travel in (at least) pairs.

Does that make sense?

Addison

Mark Davis wrote:
> I must not be clearly stating my point. Let me try again.
>
> I'm getting at the fundamental reasoning behind extlang at all. I'm not
> arguing that we should use different DATA than ISO 639-3 in order to
> decide what are extlangs and what are not. What I'm saying is: why do we
> need the extlang construction at all? Why do we need to have zh-cmn
> instead of just cmn?
>
>  > Worst case we have some languages that could have been extlangs that
> become primary language subtags instead.
>
> That is: Why don't we simply have *all* languages be primary language
> subtags instead of extlangs? What do extlangs buy us, that we need the
> complication that they introduce?
>
> Mark
>
> On 3/16/07, *Addison Phillips* <addison@yahoo-inc.com
> <mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     Mark Davis wrote:
>      > Yes, and it concerns me that we are baking in a particular view
>     of the
>      > world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in
>      > conjunction with others (eg pmu can only be used with lah-pmu). Now
>      > maybe I'm missing something, can you articulate the reasons why
>     we must
>      > use lah-pmu (for example) instead of just pmu?
>      >
>
>     The reasons are all procedural: any ISO 639-3 code that is contained by
>     a macro-language and is not previously encoded by ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2
>     must be an extlang whose Prefix is the macro-language code.
>
>     This allows us to piggyback on ISO 639-3's work in this area to create
>     tags such as zh-cmn and avoid naked 'cmn' language tags without having,
>     ourselves, to squint at the lists and make separate, possibly
>     unreasonable, decisions.
>
>     One possible way to avoid this would be to limit the "automatic"
>     creation of mappings to those languages that have ISO 639-1 codes. This
>     greatly limits the impact. The problem here is that it is arbitrary (why
>     Aymara and not Baluchi? why Cree and not Delaware?)
>
>     To respond to Doug's point, I think that we are not *forced* to delay
>     RFC 4646bis or even 4645bis's appearance. What we need are clear rules
>     for the incorporation of ISO 639-3 into the registry scheme. This
>     *could* take the form of a Big Bang insertion. But it would
>     certainly be
>     valid to insert only the language (and not the extlang) codes initially
>     or to include only the finalized and stable extlang codes when they are
>     mature---on a different day.
>
>     I would suggest that a mechanism for doing this would be to take each
>     macro-language, as a collection, and vet the contents with the RA and
>     on-list with ietf-languages before doing an insert. The Chinese and
>     Arabic collections probably get in straight-away. Lahnda's subtags (by
>     way of example) could wait---and no one is hurt by that delay. The only
>     hurt is getting the mapping wrong. Worst case we have some languages
>     that could have been extlangs that become primary language subtags
>     instead.
>
>     Addison
>
>     --
>     Addison Phillips
>     Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
>
>     Internationalization is an architecture.
>     It is not a feature.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.



--
Mark ------=_Part_120170_13816931.1174093557103-- --===============1576953754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1576953754==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 17 02:34:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSSUm-0007h8-Hu; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 02:34:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSSUl-0007h0-Ir for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 02:34:27 -0400 Received: from mailb.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSSUi-0004OX-HZ for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 02:34:27 -0400 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:34:24 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.186]) with mapi; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:34:23 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:34:16 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Thread-Index: AcdoMKO71FHYtaWESF+gvEv4IfdozgALRyGw Message-ID: References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161805v631af4d4p79936e0381c547a9@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703161805v631af4d4p79936e0381c547a9@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 76fee95f697ac1bd4d0bfe58b40699d9 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1830745551==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1830745551== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70FF634DNAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70FF634DNAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps it would help not to consider all macrolanguage (or putative macrol= anguages - keep in mind "lah" still needs to be evaluated) as comparable ca= ses. There's a big difference between "lah" and "zh": the former is rare in= existing data (certain libraries perhaps being exceptional), while the lat= ter is *very* common. The extlang construct was suggested with cases like t= he latter in mind, not the former. Peter From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:06 PM To: Addison Phillips Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi > You might retag with "zh-cmn-Hans-CN", but this interferes less drastical= ly with matching than outright change of the primary subtag. This is the crux of the matter, whether this is in fact true. We've all bee= n sort-of assuming that it is, but our goal at the time of 4646 was to make= sure that we had some structure to accommodate the possibility in case we = wanted it, long before we'd really take hard looks at the pros and cons. In= order to establish whether this statement is true or not, I think we need = to walk through some of the scenarios, and see how important it is in pract= ice. I'll take a crack at a few cases, although I think we need a more exte= nsive look. Filtering, No Extlang Model Let's suppose that I have content tagged with the following: #1 zh-Hant-HK #2 zh-Hans-HK #3 yue-SG If I basic filter for zh, I'll get #1 and #2. With just a bit smarter filte= r, using information from ISO 639 (maybe put into our registry), I'll also = match #3. If I search with zh-Hant, I'll get #1 in either case. If I search= for yue, I'll get just #3. Filtering, Extlang Model #1 zh-Hant-HK #2 zh-Hans-HK #3 zh-yue-SG If I search for content matching zh, I don't have to use the "bit smarter" = filter. Otherwise the same. Lookup, No extlang Model #1 cmn-Hant-HK #2 cmn-Hant #3 cmn #4 yue-Hant-HK #5 yue-Hant #6 yue #7 zh If I request zh-Hans-CN, I'll fall all the way back to zh. If I didn't have= #7, I'd fail, unless I had some smarts to do an alias to cmn. If I request= yue-Hans, I'd fallback to yue. Lookup, Extlang Model #1 zh-cmn-Hant-HK #2 zh-cmn-Hant #3 zh-cmn #4 zh-yue-Hant-HK #5 zh-yue-Hant #6 zh-yue #7 zh If I request zh-Hans-CN, I'll fall all the way back to zh. If I didn't have= #7, I'd fail, unless I had some smarts to do an alias to cmn. If I request= zh-yue-Hans, I'd fallback to zh-yue. I'm not seeing a lot of difference here, but I certainly haven't explored a= ll the possibilities. We need to try some more scenarios to see where we ha= ve some compelling differences. In particular, we need to look at cases whe= re we are looking up where the target has cmns or yues and the key doesn't,= and vice versa. Mark On 3/16/07, Addison Phillips > wrote: What extlangs buys us is: for languages that are already tagged, the current primary language subtags remain consistently the primary language subtag of choice. You might add additional subtags, but you don't have to retag all of your content. Thus "zh-Hans-CN" is still valid. You would not (could not) retag with "cmn-Hans-CN". You might retag with "zh-cmn-Hans-CN", but this interferes less drastically with matching than outright change of the primary subtag. What we want are consistent choices for language tags. One alternative would be to allow both "zh-cmn" and "cmn". Users would have to be careful to use these consistently in their content and range selection. Another alternative would be to forget extlang altogether and permit *either* "zh" *or* "cmn" but not both in the same tag (except by grandfathering). This frees the extlang up for other, nefarious, purposes. My surmise is that macro-languages are a one-time event: "discovery" of future macro-languages will mostly be prohibited by rule (since most of the languages will already have codes in the "primary" position when they become part of a macro-language collection). If my surmise is correct, we could ban future extlang additions and use the remainder of that namespace for (well) nefarious purposes. The only exception to my surmise would be: a language not previously given a code that is part of an existing macro-language. A language that isn't currently a macro-language that receives a new sublanguage would be a problem (all of the macro-languages are, by definition, one-to-many mappings). That is, the sub languages always travel in (at least) pairs. Does that make sense? Addison Mark Davis wrote: > I must not be clearly stating my point. Let me try again. > > I'm getting at the fundamental reasoning behind extlang at all. I'm not > arguing that we should use different DATA than ISO 639-3 in order to > decide what are extlangs and what are not. What I'm saying is: why do we > need the extlang construction at all? Why do we need to have zh-cmn > instead of just cmn? > > > Worst case we have some languages that could have been extlangs that > become primary language subtags instead. > > That is: Why don't we simply have *all* languages be primary language > subtags instead of extlangs? What do extlangs buy us, that we need the > complication that they introduce? > > Mark > > On 3/16/07, *Addison Phillips* > >> wrote: > > > > Mark Davis wrote: > > Yes, and it concerns me that we are baking in a particular view > of the > > world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in > > conjunction with others (eg pmu can only be used with lah-pmu). No= w > > maybe I'm missing something, can you articulate the reasons why > we must > > use lah-pmu (for example) instead of just pmu? > > > > The reasons are all procedural: any ISO 639-3 code that is contained = by > a macro-language and is not previously encoded by ISO 639-1 or ISO 63= 9-2 > must be an extlang whose Prefix is the macro-language code. > > This allows us to piggyback on ISO 639-3's work in this area to creat= e > tags such as zh-cmn and avoid naked 'cmn' language tags without havin= g, > ourselves, to squint at the lists and make separate, possibly > unreasonable, decisions. > > One possible way to avoid this would be to limit the "automatic" > creation of mappings to those languages that have ISO 639-1 codes. Th= is > greatly limits the impact. The problem here is that it is arbitrary (= why > Aymara and not Baluchi? why Cree and not Delaware?) > > To respond to Doug's point, I think that we are not *forced* to delay > RFC 4646bis or even 4645bis's appearance. What we need are clear rule= s > for the incorporation of ISO 639-3 into the registry scheme. This > *could* take the form of a Big Bang insertion. But it would > certainly be > valid to insert only the language (and not the extlang) codes initial= ly > or to include only the finalized and stable extlang codes when they a= re > mature---on a different day. > > I would suggest that a mechanism for doing this would be to take each > macro-language, as a collection, and vet the contents with the RA and > on-list with ietf-languages before doing an insert. The Chinese and > Arabic collections probably get in straight-away. Lahnda's subtags (b= y > way of example) could wait---and no one is hurt by that delay. The on= ly > hurt is getting the mapping wrong. Worst case we have some languages > that could have been extlangs that become primary language subtags > instead. > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > > > > -- > Mark -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. -- Mark --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70FF634DNAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Perhaps it would help not to consider all macrolanguage (or putative macrolanguages – keep in mind “lah” still needs = to be evaluated) as comparable cases. There’s a big difference between “lah” = and “zh”: the former is rare in existing data (certain libraries perhaps being exceptional), whi= le the latter is *very* common. The extlang construct was suggested wit= h cases like the latter in mind, not the former.

 

 

Peter

 

From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:06 PM
To: Addison Phillips
Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi

 

> You might retag wi= th "zh-cmn-Hans-CN", but this interferes less drastically with match= ing than outright change of the primary subtag.

This is the crux of the matter, whether this is in fact true. We've all bee= n sort-of assuming that it is, but our goal at the time of 4646 was to make s= ure that we had some structure to accommodate the possibility in case we wanted= it, long before we'd really take hard looks at the pros and cons. In order to e= stablish whether this statement is true or not, I think we need to walk through some= of the scenarios, and see how important it is in practice. I'll take a crack a= t a few cases, although I think we need a more extensive look.

Filtering, No Extlang Model

Let's suppose that I have content tagged with the following:

#1 zh-Hant-HK
#2 zh-Hans-HK
#3 yue-SG

If I basic filter for zh, I'll get #1 and #2. With just a bit smarter filte= r, using information from ISO 639 (maybe put into our registry), I'll also mat= ch #3. If I search with zh-Hant, I'll get #1 in either case. If I search for y= ue, I'll get just #3.

Filtering, Extlang Model

#1 zh-Hant-HK
#2 zh-Hans-HK
#3 zh-yue-SG

If I search for content matching zh, I don't have to use the "bit smarter" filter. Otherwise the same.

Lookup, No extlang Model

#1 cmn-Hant-HK
#2 cmn-Hant
#3 cmn
#4 yue-Hant-HK
#5 yue-Hant
#6 yue
#7 zh

If I request zh-Hans-CN, I'll fall all the way back to zh. If I didn't have= #7, I'd fail, unless I had some smarts to do an alias to cmn. If I request yue-Hans, I'd fallback to yue.

Lookup, Extlang Model

#1 zh-cmn-Hant-HK
#2 zh-cmn-Hant
#3 zh-cmn
#4 zh-yue-Hant-HK
#5 zh-yue-Hant
#6 zh-yue
#7 zh

If I request zh-Hans-CN, I'll fall all the way back to zh. If I didn't have= #7, I'd fail, unless I had some smarts to do an alias to cmn. If I request zh-yue-Hans, I'd fallback to zh-yue.

I'm not seeing a lot of difference here, but I certainly haven't explored a= ll the possibilities. We need to try some more scenarios to see where we have = some compelling differences. In particular, we need to look at cases where we ar= e looking up where the target has cmns or yues and the key doesn't, and vice versa.

Mark

On 3/16/07, Addison Philli= ps <addison@yahoo-inc.com> = wrote:

What extlangs buys us is: for languages that are alrea= dy tagged, the
current primary language subtags remain consistently the primary
language subtag of choice. You might add additional subtags, but you
don't have to retag all of your content.

Thus "zh-Hans-CN" is still valid. You would not (could not) retag with
"cmn-Hans-CN". You might retag with "zh-cmn-Hans-CN", b= ut this
interferes less drastically with matching than outright change of the
primary subtag.

What we want are consistent choices for language tags.

One alternative would be to allow both "zh-cmn" and "cmn&quo= t;. Users would
have to be careful to use these consistently in their content and range selection.

Another alternative would be to forget extlang altogether and permit
*either* "zh" *or* "cmn" but not both in the same tag (except by
grandfathering). This frees the extlang up for other, nefarious, purposes. =

My surmise is that macro-languages are a one-time event: "discovery&qu= ot; of
future macro-languages will mostly be prohibited by rule (since most of
the languages will already have codes in the "primary" position w= hen
they become part of a macro-language collection). If my surmise is
correct, we could ban future extlang additions and use the remainder of
that namespace for (well) nefarious purposes.

The only exception to my surmise would be: a language not previously
given a code that is part of an existing macro-language. A language that isn't currently a macro-language that receives a new sublanguage would
be a problem (all of the macro-languages are, by definition, one-to-many mappings). That is, the sub languages always travel in (at least) pairs.
Does that make sense?

Addison

Mark Davis wrote:
> I must not be clearly stating my point. Let me try again.
>
> I'm getting at the fundamental reasoning behind extlang at all. I'm no= t
> arguing that we should use different DATA than ISO 639-3 in order to > decide what are extlangs and what are not. What I'm saying is: why do = we
> need the extlang construction at all? Why do we need to have zh-cmn > instead of just cmn?
>
>  > Worst case we have some languages that could have been extlangs that
> become primary language subtags instead.
>
> That is: Why don't we simply have *all* languages be primary language<= br> > subtags instead of extlangs? What do extlangs buy us, that we need the=
> complication that they introduce?
>
> Mark
>
> On 3/16/07, *Addison Phillips* <addison@yahoo-inc.com
> <mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.= com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     Mark Davis wrote:
>      > Yes, and it concerns me that w= e are baking in a particular view
>     of the
>      > world by requiring that some language tags can only be used in
>      > conjunction with others (eg pm= u can only be used with lah-pmu). Now
>      > maybe I'm missing something, c= an you articulate the reasons why
>     we must
>      > use lah-pmu (for example) inst= ead of just pmu?
>      >
>
>     The reasons are all procedural: any ISO 639-3 = code that is contained by
>     a macro-language and is not previously encoded= by ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2
>     must be an extlang whose Prefix is the macro-language code.
>
>     This allows us to piggyback on ISO 639-3's wor= k in this area to create
>     tags such as zh-cmn and avoid naked 'cmn' lang= uage tags without having,
>     ourselves, to squint at the lists and make separate, possibly
>     unreasonable, decisions.
>
>     One possible way to avoid this would be to lim= it the "automatic"
>     creation of mappings to those languages that h= ave ISO 639-1 codes. This
>     greatly limits the impact. The problem here is that it is arbitrary (why
>     Aymara and not Baluchi? why Cree and not Delaware?)
>
>     To respond to Doug's point, I think that we ar= e not *forced* to delay
>     RFC 4646bis or even 4645bis's appearance. What= we need are clear rules
>     for the incorporation of ISO 639-3 into the registry scheme. This
>     *could* take the form of a Big Bang insertion.= But it would
>     certainly be
>     valid to insert only the language (and not the extlang) codes initially
>     or to include only the finalized and stable extlang codes when they are
>     mature---on a different day.
>
>     I would suggest that a mechanism for doing thi= s would be to take each
>     macro-language, as a collection, and vet the contents with the RA and
>     on-list with ietf-languages before doing an insert. The Chinese and
>     Arabic collections probably get in straight-aw= ay. Lahnda's subtags (by
>     way of example) could wait---and no one is hur= t by that delay. The only
>     hurt is getting the mapping wrong. Worst case = we have some languages
>     that could have been extlangs that become prim= ary language subtags
>     instead.
>
>     Addison
>
>     --
>     Addison Phillips
>     Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
>
>     Internationalization is an architecture.
>     It is not a feature.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.




--
Mark

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357955C70FF634DNAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============1830745551== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1830745551==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 17 06:55:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSWZX-0002kM-Ql; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:55:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSWZW-0002kD-Aw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:55:38 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSWZS-0001u1-Ij for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:55:38 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HSWZ5-0003vP-Im for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:55:11 +0100 Received: from d252012.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.12]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:55:11 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252012.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:55:11 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:54:32 +0100 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: <45FBC8E8.2132@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252012.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Another alternative would be to forget extlang altogether and permit > *either* "zh" *or* "cmn" but not both in the same tag (except by > grandfathering). This frees the extlang up for other, nefarious, > purposes. Getting rid of it completely might be possible, or using it only for special purposes like "sgn". Apparently the "zh" situation isn't much better than the "sgn" situation, unless the "zh" tag contains a script and is in essence used instead of "und". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 17 12:50:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSc6d-0001E2-PI; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:50:11 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSc6c-00018x-1H for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:50:10 -0400 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSc6a-00011K-Mv for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:50:10 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070317165005.LUC6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:50:05 -0400 Message-ID: <004301c768b4$50b4d9e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:50:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > To respond to Doug's point, I think that we are not *forced* to delay > RFC 4646bis or even 4645bis's appearance. What we need are clear rules > for the incorporation of ISO 639-3 into the registry scheme. Which will then be a significant part of RFC 4645bis. > This *could* take the form of a Big Bang insertion. But it would > certainly be valid to insert only the language (and not the extlang) > codes initially or to include only the finalized and stable extlang > codes when they are mature---on a different day. That's an interesting idea. It gets us almost 6,700 new primary language subtags that weren't available before. One possible drawback is that it leaves the Panjabi/Lahnda question (and others) open, and might prolong the period during which things get tagged incorrectly, at a time when the increased capacity and visibility of our mechanism may spark an increase in the use of language tags. > I would suggest that a mechanism for doing this would be to take each > macro-language, as a collection, and vet the contents with the RA and > on-list with ietf-languages before doing an insert. The Chinese and > Arabic collections probably get in straight-away. Lahnda's subtags (by > way of example) could wait---and no one is hurt by that delay. The > only hurt is getting the mapping wrong. Worst case we have some > languages that could have been extlangs that become primary language > subtags instead. I wonder how subjective this "vetting" process might be, or might be perceived to be. I can easily imagine other experts or native speakers castigating us for getting the decision "wrong," if there are no hard-and-fast rules. At least if we add all encompassed languages that aren't currently subtags (a) as extlangs -- the original plan -- or (b) as primary language subtags, it can be defended as a rule application and not a value judgment on our part. As you can tell, I'm not at all sure what the best course of action is, if we are going to revisit this most basic assumption of LTRU 2.0. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 17 13:39:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HScsW-0006Kt-AQ; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:39:40 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HScsV-0006Km-Eo for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:39:39 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HScsT-00078U-Rc for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:39:39 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070317173936.UPDN2272.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:39:36 +0000 Message-ID: <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:39:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Don Osborn wrote: > I also concur with Mark's unease with "baking" in a certain approach, > given the potential alternative needs. I would say "flexibility" here > but that got me into trouble before. If the proposal is to allow both "zh-cmn" and "cmn" as synonyms, with neither deprecated in favor of the other, then I will indeed object to that kind of "flexibility." The current thinking seems to be that matching algorithms will be too dumb to perform anything but basic remove-from-right truncation, which would fail dismally under such a plan. > In effect cmn would "map" to zh? Yes, via the Prefix field. > I wonder if the existence of the codes doesn't pretty much guarantee > that some people will, for whatever reason, use the language code > without attention to the macrolanguage code. One would have to > consider this possibility and provide for it. "cmn" would be listed as "Type: extlang". If people misuse the protocol to the point of using extended language subtags alone, without their prefix, there is probably nothing we can do about it. This type of person will also invent their own subtags, switch the order of subtags from what the ABNF specifies, and so forth. >> My surmise is that macro-languages are a one-time event: "discovery" >> of future macro-languages will mostly be prohibited by rule (since >> most of the languages will already have codes in the "primary" >> position when they become part of a macro-language collection). If my >> surmise is correct, we could ban future extlang additions and use the >> remainder of that namespace for (well) nefarious purposes. > > Don't agree here. I think there are de facto macrolanguages out there > without the title that may need new codes and the extlang > relationships with other 639-3 or even 639-1/2 coded (sub)languages > that those would imply (Runyakitara, Oshiwambo, and Beti are examples > of possibilities, from my understanding of descriptions). At the very > least, the door should not be closed. I think Addison was talking about the combination of (a) ISO 639-3 adding new macrolanguage relationships with languages that are not currently encoded, and (b) our group sticking to its rule about adding extlangs. If we change our rules and allow extlangs to mean something other than what they mean in draft-4646bis-02, then anything can happen. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 17 13:45:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HScy3-0000sJ-Bk; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:45:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HScy2-0000sE-BK for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:45:22 -0400 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HScy1-0007X9-12 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:45:22 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070317174520.CVUF6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:45:20 -0400 Message-ID: <004a01c768bc$08595100$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161805v631af4d4p79936e0381c547a9@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:45:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > Let's suppose that I have content tagged with the following: > > #1 zh-Hant-HK > #2 zh-Hans-HK > #3 yue-SG > > If I basic filter for zh, I'll get #1 and #2. With just a bit smarter > filter, using information from ISO 639 (maybe put into our registry), > I'll also match #3. If I search with zh-Hant, I'll get #1 in either > case. If I search for yue, I'll get just #3. Wait a minute. You've been arguing that we need to put writing-system differences in the script subtag and not in the variant, because filters will be too stupid to do anything more than prefix matching. Then why would we design for the possibility of a "smarter filter" than could associate "yue" with "zh"? -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 17 14:49:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSdxs-0002Ge-7P; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:49:16 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSdxr-0002GZ-Pg for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:49:15 -0400 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.231]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSdxq-0005tS-Ck for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:49:15 -0400 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 37so928181wra for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:49:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=iiUpfk0DDov1P+t+wdhMwm5LFPfiuyNtLE26zxrug6YA3s76mnHSYwWcFExGa2Uq1efROPZCQN5juXgXFW8wdfq/v6mcicimnAuUhL+xfvbzCNoLmF5N1oCH0R59uTxHe2oBdlGNn7NdCWWmYwzUcwwAqD949OqKgfW18yp8b1M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=SQ4ejUcjykn4MnE5rhJmrrRLWDE2/RtzZtexMCh6n/mvvMt/jFpOASGf1GvZAlZG1jclrHPH9uObUpsVCX6xZUabRWkoIEr/xx2PQfT7EpxMeC0a6CLqUP2wi17mNSjrI//as0DrP0wyclK+CBMHjNOk8CC1jphE7S56poEistg= Received: by 10.90.101.19 with SMTP id y19mr2886700agb.1174157353935; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703171149i47d09580w126aeb3f9feb8fdf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:49:13 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b2bcacef71925858 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1757708163==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Mar 17 17:32:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSgVQ-0000oL-Ms; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:32:04 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSgVP-0000mR-Ey for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:32:03 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSgVO-0007Bq-5x for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:32:03 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070317213201.WLCX2195.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:32:01 -0400 Message-ID: <007801c768db$b34ea230$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20703171149i47d09580w126aeb3f9feb8fdf@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:32:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > At this point, we'd be better off to add information to the registry > about related languages than we would to use the extlang structure. > That is, add "cmn-CN", because we need to have it, and have an extra > field to say that this is related in a certain way to "zh", > information that can be used in matching. I see your point (which is not the same as agreeing with it), but you still haven't convinced me that these matching filters which are too simplistic to match "zh-Hans-SG" with "zh-SG" are going to be clever enough to find the relationship between "zh" and "cmn" in the Registry. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 18 00:16:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSmoW-0000YN-Bt; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 00:16:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSmoV-0000YI-1Z for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 00:16:11 -0400 Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201] helo=kabissa.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSmoS-0007wN-JB for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 00:16:11 -0400 Received: (qmail 23024 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2007 23:15:52 -0500 Received: from pool-71-252-39-214.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (71.252.39.214) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 17 Mar 2007 23:15:51 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Subject: RE: [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 00:15:42 -0400 Message-ID: <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcdouzwcOUt5bKNkQv6bxLwNt4+GawAH81Yw Content-Language: en-us X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 287c806b254c6353fcb09ee0e53bbc5e Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thanks Doug for the clarifications.=20 Your statement "This type of person will also invent their own subtags, = switch the order of subtags from what the ABNF specifies, and so forth" = had me thinking more about user behavior and actually about an analogy = with the "diffusion of innovation" model. (Bear with me...) Briefly, at the lead end of the bell-curve you have the folks who really = get it and go with, no matter how complicated it (in fact, maybe invent = it). At the other end of course are those who totally don't get it or = don't want to, or worse. In the middle are various shades of = understanding and motivation, and I'm suspecting that in there, the well = meaning folks who kind of get it may use the codes in a seemingly = sensible but not strictly proper way. Like cmn instead of zh-cmn (and so = on). There already is the notion out there that ISO-639-3 supersedes 1&2 = (in some contexts it may, but the real overall relationship - let alone = the intricacies of some specific languages - does not seem to lend = itself to a quick and clear explanation). That alone could lead to = honest errors in choice. I guess there is a problem, though, if it turns out that the system is = complex enough that human errors are likely and technofixes are hard to = devise. It may not be possible to cover for all the possible misuses of = tags, but maybe one can cover for the smarter mistakes? On the other hand, what is the actual number of (macro)languages where = extlang issues arise? This may rate as another non-sequiteur message, but I'm trying to think = of end users and scenarios. Have a good rest-of-the-weekend. Don PS- I take it then that "new" macrolanguages can be defined in the = future, under some circumstances? > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@adelphia.net] > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:40 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Cc: Don Osborn > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi >=20 > Don Osborn wrote: >=20 > > I also concur with Mark's unease with "baking" in a certain = approach, > > given the potential alternative needs. I would say "flexibility" = here > > but that got me into trouble before. >=20 > If the proposal is to allow both "zh-cmn" and "cmn" as synonyms, with > neither deprecated in favor of the other, then I will indeed object to > that kind of "flexibility." The current thinking seems to be that > matching algorithms will be too dumb to perform anything but basic > remove-from-right truncation, which would fail dismally under such a > plan. >=20 > > In effect cmn would "map" to zh? >=20 > Yes, via the Prefix field. >=20 > > I wonder if the existence of the codes doesn't pretty much guarantee > > that some people will, for whatever reason, use the language code > > without attention to the macrolanguage code. One would have to > > consider this possibility and provide for it. >=20 > "cmn" would be listed as "Type: extlang". If people misuse the > protocol > to the point of using extended language subtags alone, without their > prefix, there is probably nothing we can do about it. This type of > person will also invent their own subtags, switch the order of subtags > from what the ABNF specifies, and so forth. >=20 > >> My surmise is that macro-languages are a one-time event: = "discovery" > >> of future macro-languages will mostly be prohibited by rule (since > >> most of the languages will already have codes in the "primary" > >> position when they become part of a macro-language collection). If > my > >> surmise is correct, we could ban future extlang additions and use > the > >> remainder of that namespace for (well) nefarious purposes. > > > > Don't agree here. I think there are de facto macrolanguages out = there > > without the title that may need new codes and the extlang > > relationships with other 639-3 or even 639-1/2 coded (sub)languages > > that those would imply (Runyakitara, Oshiwambo, and Beti are = examples > > of possibilities, from my understanding of descriptions). At the = very > > least, the door should not be closed. >=20 > I think Addison was talking about the combination of (a) ISO 639-3 > adding new macrolanguage relationships with languages that are not > currently encoded, and (b) our group sticking to its rule about adding > extlangs. If we change our rules and allow extlangs to mean something > other than what they mean in draft-4646bis-02, then anything can > happen. >=20 > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 18 06:54:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSt1j-0003se-QW; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:54:15 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSt1j-0003sY-7D for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:54:15 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSt1d-0006aL-Sb for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:54:15 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HSt1a-0004MR-Tw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:54:06 +0100 Received: from du-001-077.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.77]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:54:06 +0100 Received: from nobody by du-001-077.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:54:06 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:52:58 +0100 Organization: Lines: 30 Message-ID: <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <003501c76756$f2213760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20703161305h1f007acalb7ecf2c45224b4da@mail.gmail.com> <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-077.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Don Osborn wrote: > what is the actual number of (macro)languages where extlang issues arise? I try to determine this "manually" for Doug's latest 4645bis: There are 480 "Prefix:" lines in the extlang part. ar 30 ay 2 az 2 bal 3 bik 5 bua 3 chm 2 cr 6 del 2 den 2 din 5 doi 2 fa 2 ff 9 gba 5 gn 5 gon 2 grb 5 hai 2 hmn 21 ik 2 iu 2 jrb 5 kg 3 kok 2 kpe 2 kr 3 ku 3 kv 2 lah 8 man 7 mg 10 mn 2 ms 13 mwr 6 oc 5 oj 7 om 4 ps 3 qu 44 raj 6 rom 7 sc 4 sgn 124 sq 4 sw 2 syr 2 tnh 4 uz 2 yi 2 za 2 zap 58 zh 13 zza 2 That's 54 at the moment. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 18 08:17:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSuJf-0000CT-UG; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:16:51 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSuJf-0000CO-DM for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:16:51 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.173]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSuJb-0001Ni-QQ for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:16:51 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so983496ugd for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:16:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GAM5C41AQu2AB/sgqdo01LoU3x3UMuJray7wLolMjW4IrlK67s6mOBuyXclwTCs/yNiKKSldA2cyp3rK0CSzkJPjQOJEJuTjMNavjVPd8Tqa1Ad5IRbjpb0j4zCXZggrCi8BJGeUsCEwW4oAOn3YIbnxo229yB947AxDCrHF+eQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FeqpgmxeoD0kxAUQcg9kecRm1F6HK6UpaxaVKyeQybYHV12i0OzurJlo+GlN7l6pIzeVM3a3Axl8AKC4ayZ14a71bLN8h3WJqzKNUoUyB08XM51SgFgO7fFebB7bi1yJ0tZiILMm6z0NSP0qNmxCuiHRKqKYWMmAc8TnnoRBhpY= Received: by 10.66.232.9 with SMTP id e9mr8011139ugh.1174220206975; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.2? ( [62.195.155.247]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id y7sm5990349ugc.2007.03.18.05.16.45; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <45FD2D84.5050007@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:16:04 +0100 From: Gerard Meijssen User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) References: <30b660a20703171149i47d09580w126aeb3f9feb8fdf@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703171149i47d09580w126aeb3f9feb8fdf@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hoi, Modern computers are quite capable of this "non-trivial" lookup that you refer to. The reason why we should allow for both zh-cmn and cmn is because it is much easier to explain to *people*. I utterly disagree that having both options is of little benefit. It helps people; it helps people understand the code. We give meaning to these codes and it is extremely hard to explain how these codes work. For people it makes a hell of a difference. You can explain that zh is old and Mandarin can be used as zh-cmn and cmn as a consequence. People will opt for cmn if they have the option and to it right, they will still opt for cmn and you would call them wrong. We get a much better adoption by being understood. It is more important than having computers to know that two codes are equivalent. Computers are good at that !! Thanks, Gerard Mark Davis schreef: > (I agree with Frank, we should change the subject line.) > > Let me try another way to state it. We've been looking into how to > implement extlang at Google, and it has a number of complications when > you start to look at actual implementations. We want the default > fallback to work well, but using the extlang model we get the > equivalent of the "suppress script" problem. > > Right now, 99% of the usage of zh means Mandarin, 99% of the usage of > ar means standard Arabic (fuṣḥā) If we introduce zh-cmn and ar-arb it > complicates lookup considerably. Compatibility forces us to treat "ar" > and "ar-arb" as equivalents, which means we already have non-trivial > lookup, since we have to have all child languages match, eg > ar-arb-Arab-EG and ar-Arab-EG, etc. Encoding arq as ar-arq to do a bit > of magic in fallback isn't worth the trouble introduced by that. It > may well be that arb is the best fallback for arq, but it may also be > that nb is the best fallback for da, which we don't try to incorporate > in the language tags themselves. That is, trying to guess what the > best fallback is AND bake it into the encoding of the tags itself for > the case of macro languages is simply a complication for little benefit. > > At this point, we'd be better off to add information to the registry > about related languages than we would to use the extlang structure. > That is, add "cmn-CN", because we need to have it, and have an extra > field to say that this is related in a certain way to "zh", > information that can be used in matching. > > Mark > > On 3/17/07, *Doug Ewell* > wrote: > > Mark Davis wrote: > > > Let's suppose that I have content tagged with the following: > > > > #1 zh-Hant-HK > > #2 zh-Hans-HK > > #3 yue-SG > > > > If I basic filter for zh, I'll get #1 and #2. With just a bit > smarter > > filter, using information from ISO 639 (maybe put into our > registry), > > I'll also match #3. If I search with zh-Hant, I'll get #1 in either > > case. If I search for yue, I'll get just #3. > > Wait a minute. You've been arguing that we need to put writing-system > differences in the script subtag and not in the variant, because > filters > will be too stupid to do anything more than prefix matching. Then > why > would we design for the possibility of a "smarter filter" than could > associate "yue" with "zh"? > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > > > -- > Mark _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 18 12:47:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSyXM-0004lE-J7; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:47:16 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSyXL-0004kY-NX for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:47:15 -0400 Received: from mta15.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSyXK-0003I8-CO for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:47:15 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070318164711.OMY2405.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:47:11 -0400 Message-ID: <00b801c7697d$12fa98f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20703171149i47d09580w126aeb3f9feb8fdf@mail.gmail.com> <45FD2D84.5050007@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:47:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: Gerard Meijssen X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Gerard Meijssen wrote: > You can explain that zh is old and Mandarin can be used as zh-cmn and > cmn as a consequence. People will opt for cmn if they have the option > and to it right, they will still opt for cmn and you would call them > wrong. This continues to be a misrepresentation of the nature and intent of macrolanguages. It is not a question of one being "old" and the other being "new." If it were, the "old" code element would not exist in ISO 639-3. The ISO 639-3/RA has determined that for some languages, including Chinese and I guess 53 others, it is suitable or common in some situations to think of them as a single language and in other situations as multiple languages. That is the decision they have made, based on their knowledge and research. I do not consider it my job, at least, to second-guess their knowledge or research about Chinese and declare that it is never appropriate to think of Chinese as a single language, nor to "bake" (as Mark would say) my opinion into the tagging standard. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 18 13:02:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSylZ-0005Qk-LM; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:01:57 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSylY-0005Ly-Bf for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:01:56 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.175]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSylX-0005Lp-1D for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:01:56 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so1019549ugd for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=epErxCwimdmGsuWcPl1MG5ZnzW2RS1hfq9ARLeCOHpwX2YNcLB4j7BQJ0dR1JtgpeSvQLt+dYneZrnBmMPi0S/WFmograg7jTAMJnV/qcCiQkRX7HXajq3IzZcen83WSZOPPJ2Sm/izPEzKRdJJjObKJVvrLQMSWD7zs8Mrv+Rk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NLRxGof17jzCB3Zx1PiJ+myoYtKTC81gyX12mG7+WXW31F5EjCmcvSyTxYPs6RnFDatz0/YZ2OtDFWRTLPRZzjOLs5pn1agWYxyZTJCmYainBHBSoddURPN5wYr+jAY9UnQF1oS9j9HHnjKJxOBd4ZYjiA7BE794oQ85Dx9Luo4= Received: by 10.67.92.1 with SMTP id u1mr8351775ugl.1174237314234; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.2? ( [62.195.155.247]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id l40sm4254124ugc.2007.03.18.10.01.52; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <45FD7058.8030409@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:01:12 +0100 From: Gerard Meijssen User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang References: <30b660a20703171149i47d09580w126aeb3f9feb8fdf@mail.gmail.com> <45FD2D84.5050007@gmail.com> <00b801c7697d$12fa98f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <00b801c7697d$12fa98f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hoi, The point was if it makes sense to allow for both zh-cmn and cmn. The fact that some languages are considered together a single language is very much beside the point. I will not argue that. One point is that computers can easily equate these two codes as being the same. The other point to my argument is not addressed; this is that it is easier to explain to people; a single code per language and for compatibilities sake, zh is understood to be all these languages and is therefore not as discrete it can be appended with the later code. Of importance is that in this way more content will be tagged in a way that is correct. When you allow for one language one tag, you make it easier for people to do a right thing. Thanks, GerardM Doug Ewell schreef: > Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >> You can explain that zh is old and Mandarin can be used as zh-cmn and >> cmn as a consequence. People will opt for cmn if they have the option >> and to it right, they will still opt for cmn and you would call them >> wrong. > > This continues to be a misrepresentation of the nature and intent of > macrolanguages. It is not a question of one being "old" and the other > being "new." If it were, the "old" code element would not exist in > ISO 639-3. > > The ISO 639-3/RA has determined that for some languages, including > Chinese and I guess 53 others, it is suitable or common in some > situations to think of them as a single language and in other > situations as multiple languages. That is the decision they have > made, based on their knowledge and research. I do not consider it my > job, at least, to second-guess their knowledge or research about > Chinese and declare that it is never appropriate to think of Chinese > as a single language, nor to "bake" (as Mark would say) my opinion > into the tagging standard. > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 18 14:37:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT0Fl-00060j-W2; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:37:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT0Fl-00060e-50 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:37:13 -0400 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.234]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT0Fi-0000pe-QC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:37:13 -0400 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 41so1155937wry for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:37:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=KatNHq6D0ST5K608o52PWhtbCzu3RO1DpTXALoDg+wIUUcYRz5/5fdJsxytbqAVT49yVvQSKur/teO6qhrtZGgU9oyUFNenSvkXGeoY/KrOgfArHwqtWs51I9PA+r0aKJO0pcqJp+eyPKUun5VPokvXLj5LGuuTWBC1c/qWqrFE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Da1Jkx7LdV6ANheePmoixyyfjTMSi12UK5KGkuqOIz5HvAwKFVCTnstaXMDI++h3YTdMHqaF6ymCfUZuAAIH5DUmlU7UNaWFbdeZV3W778F82f6nItxnVuZ76uBrgoqVqRLXdkPTsv4wMNEbhn0WaX40xQdLROeAMiXw9GRRaKM= Received: by 10.90.49.1 with SMTP id w1mr3301886agw.1174243030511; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:37:10 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Frank Ellermann" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang In-Reply-To: <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2a8f81852ecaecba X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0e9ebc0cbd700a87c0637ad0e2c91610 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1614921028==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1614921028== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_139429_26784908.1174243030363" ------=_Part_139429_26784908.1174243030363 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Another way to look at it is on http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp, which provides the language names and breakdowns. Mark On 3/18/07, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Don Osborn wrote: > > > what is the actual number of (macro)languages where extlang issues > arise? > > I try to determine this "manually" for Doug's latest 4645bis: > There are 480 "Prefix:" lines in the extlang part. > > ar 30 ay 2 az 2 > bal 3 bik 5 bua 3 > chm 2 cr 6 del 2 > den 2 din 5 doi 2 > fa 2 ff 9 gba 5 > gn 5 gon 2 grb 5 > hai 2 hmn 21 ik 2 > iu 2 jrb 5 kg 3 > kok 2 kpe 2 kr 3 > ku 3 kv 2 lah 8 > man 7 mg 10 mn 2 > ms 13 mwr 6 oc 5 > oj 7 om 4 ps 3 > qu 44 raj 6 rom 7 > sc 4 sgn 124 sq 4 > sw 2 syr 2 tnh 4 > uz 2 yi 2 za 2 > zap 58 zh 13 zza 2 > > That's 54 at the moment. > > Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_139429_26784908.1174243030363 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline 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Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT0pZ-0003PL-JF; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:14:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT0pY-0003Ne-6O for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:14:12 -0400 Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201] helo=kabissa.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT0kx-0005th-2L for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:09:28 -0400 Received: (qmail 20728 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2007 14:09:10 -0500 Received: from pool-71-252-39-214.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (71.252.39.214) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 18 Mar 2007 14:09:09 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: "'Mark Davis'" , "'Frank Ellermann'" References: <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:09:01 -0400 Message-ID: <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcdpjHrNwxwFIYr9R1ONnZBrFChmWwAAhItw Content-Language: en-us X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea36de7a5e28e9b4461c8d685f4e97f1 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1022776882==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1022776882== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01B9_01C7696F.5CD815A0" Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01B9_01C7696F.5CD815A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Frank for the summary list and Mark for the pointer. Actually I = was going to reference that page and ask if it is exactly what is in = question. =20 Next (trying my luck here), is there any kind of way(s) that these can = be subgrouped? For instance ar ends up referring to standard Arabic, if = I understand correctly, and zh has been discussed already a lot; but = some other macrolanguages do not necessarily have a single standard = form. Some (macro) languages have a lot more in writing than others. = What I=E2=80=99m getting at is are there different sets of (possible) = complications that can be identified for the macrolanguages, languages = and extlang relationships, such that the list of 54 can be disaggregated = (perhaps in more than one way)?=20 =20 Not as if folks don=E2=80=99t have enough else to think about, but it = seems like such an analysis, if it hasn=E2=80=99t been done, might raise = other productive questions.=20 =20 Don =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]=20 Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 2:37 PM To: Frank Ellermann Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang =20 Another way to look at it is on = http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp, which provides the = language names and breakdowns. Mark On 3/18/07, Frank Ellermann wrote: Don Osborn wrote: > what is the actual number of (macro)languages where extlang issues = arise? I try to determine this "manually" for Doug's latest 4645bis: There are 480 "Prefix:" lines in the extlang part.=20 ar 30 ay 2 az 2 bal 3 bik 5 bua 3 chm 2 cr 6 del 2 den 2 din 5 doi 2=20 fa 2 ff 9 gba 5 gn 5 gon 2 grb 5 hai 2 hmn 21 ik 2 iu 2 jrb 5 kg 3=20 kok 2 kpe 2 kr 3 ku 3 kv 2 lah 8 man 7 mg 10 mn 2 ms 13 mwr 6 oc 5=20 oj 7 om 4 ps 3 qu 44 raj 6 rom 7 sc 4 sgn 124 sq 4 sw 2 syr 2 tnh 4=20 uz 2 yi 2 za 2 zap 58 zh 13 zza 2 That's 54 at the moment. Frank _______________________________________________=20 Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 Mark=20 ------=_NextPart_000_01B9_01C7696F.5CD815A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Frank for the summary list and Mark for the = pointer. Actually I was going to reference that page and ask if it is exactly = what is in question.

 

Next (trying my luck here), is there any kind of way(s) = that these can be subgrouped? For instance ar ends up referring to standard = Arabic, if I understand correctly, and zh has been discussed already a lot; but = some other macrolanguages do not necessarily have a single standard form. = Some (macro) languages have a lot more in writing than others. What = I=E2=80=99m getting at is are there different sets of (possible) complications that can be = identified for the macrolanguages, languages and extlang relationships, such that = the list of 54 can be disaggregated (perhaps in more than one way)? =

 

Not as if folks don=E2=80=99t have enough else to think = about, but it seems like such an analysis, if it hasn=E2=80=99t been done, might raise = other productive questions.

 

Don

 

 

 

 

 

From:= Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 2:37 PM
To: Frank Ellermann
Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang

 

Another way to look = at it is on http://www.sil.or= g/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp, which provides the language names and breakdowns.

Mark

On 3/18/07, Frank = Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>= wrote:

Don Osborn wrote:

> what is the actual number of (macro)languages where extlang issues = arise?

I try to determine this "manually" for Doug's latest = 4645bis:
There are 480 "Prefix:" lines in the extlang part.

ar      30     &nb= sp;        ay   &n= bsp;   2            =   az       2
bal      3     &nb= sp;        bik   &= nbsp;  5         &= nbsp;    bua      3
= chm      2     &nb= sp;        cr   &n= bsp;   6            =   del      2
den      2     &nb= sp;        din   &= nbsp;  5         &= nbsp;    doi      2
fa       2            =   ff       9            =   gba      5
gn       5            =   gon      2   &nb= sp;          grb &= nbsp;    5
hai      2     &nb= sp;        hmn   &= nbsp; 21            = ;  ik       2
iu       2            =   jrb      5   &nb= sp;          kg &n= bsp;     3
kok      2     &nb= sp;        kpe   &= nbsp;  2         &= nbsp;    kr       3
ku       3            =   kv       2            =   lah      8
man      7     &nb= sp;        mg   &n= bsp;  10         &= nbsp;    mn       2
ms      13     &nb= sp;        mwr   &= nbsp;  6         &= nbsp;    oc       5
oj       7            =   om       4            =   ps       3
qu      44     &nb= sp;        raj   &= nbsp;  6         &= nbsp;    rom      7
= sc       4            =   sgn     124           &nbs= p; sq       4
sw       = 2            =   syr      2   &nb= sp;          tnh &= nbsp;    4
uz       2            =   yi       2            =   za       2
zap     58            = ;  zh      13   &n= bsp;          zza =      2

That's 54 at the moment.

Frank



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--
Mark

------=_NextPart_000_01B9_01C7696F.5CD815A0-- --===============1022776882== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1022776882==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 11:10:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTJUB-0000iA-8W; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:09:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTJUA-0000aN-Es for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:09:22 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTJU3-0000zT-RQ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:09:22 -0400 Received: from [10.72.76.247] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c247.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.247]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2JF8tQw006300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:08:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eW92rBn//Pq1gxrlNIpKJGYirgmhYw0l1UfdpCFYnuIszbv76ImOQwGXWqKL+bkx Message-ID: <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:08:53 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Osborn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang References: <20070316210509.GF17950@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703161537q77fcf86y9c6488e0eb0603b@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> In-Reply-To: <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com id l2JF8tQw006300 X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: cd3fc8e909678b38737fc606dec187f0 Cc: 'Frank Ellermann' , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The idea of macro-languages is that they are not, themselves, languages.=20 Rather, they are groupings of languages that can be usefully referred to=20 collectively. That is, strictly speaking, "Chinese" (meaning "zh") isn't=20 a language---and neither is "Arabic" (by which I mean the code "ar"). Unfortunately, that isn't common usage or understanding of the=20 situation. To most people, "Arabic" is a language. The idea that it has=20 regional or other variations seems natural enough, but not, perhaps,=20 that it is a set of somewhat related languages that share a historical=20 and/or written tradition. Allowing both the macro- and plain-language codes on the same level is=20 recipe for confusion: does "ar-EG" =3D=3D "arb-EG" =3D=3D "arz" =3D=3D "a= rz-EG"?=20 What is supposed to match? Which tag should be used for a given=20 document? How should one distinguish these? We have a tradition, furthermore, of not having "secret information" in=20 language tags requiring extra mapping tables to make sense of or process=20 the tags. This tradition is punctuated (and punctured) by an equal=20 tradition of assigning "secret" meaning to language tags. Thus, for the=20 longest time, "zh-TW" meant "Traditional Chinese". Extlangs help this a little by avoiding the choice on the initial=20 subtag. Thus: "ar-EG" is related to "ar-arz-EG" and "ar-arb-EG" in=20 distinct and somewhat logical ways. Mark's concern is that this tagging system doesn't play nicely with=20 basic filtering. He's not cited the fact that we have two filtering=20 schemes: extended filtering works more reasonably with extlangs.=20 "zh-yue-Hans-CN", "zh-cmn-Hans", and "zh-Hans-CN" all match the range=20 "zh-Hans", for example. The problem with lookup (and I use lookup extensively, so it concerns me=20 deeply) might suggest that some extra smarts related to extlangs is=20 going to be needed. On the other hand, some of this is going to have to=20 be related to Maxim #1: "Tag Content Wisely". Choosing to avoid extlangs=20 where they add no distinguishing information (not uncommon in resource=20 file lookup for Arabic or Chinese, say) or *consistently* including them=20 when they do (Lahnda???) will make things better. I admit to a good bit of trepidation writing the above, though. Addison Don Osborn wrote: > Thanks Frank for the summary list and Mark for the pointer. Actually I=20 > was going to reference that page and ask if it is exactly what is in=20 > question. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Next (trying my luck here), is there any kind of way(s) that these can=20 > be subgrouped? For instance ar ends up referring to standard Arabic, if= =20 > I understand correctly, and zh has been discussed already a lot; but=20 > some other macrolanguages do not necessarily have a single standard=20 > form. Some (macro) languages have a lot more in writing than others.=20 > What I=E2=80=99m getting at is are there different sets of (possible)=20 > complications that can be identified for the macrolanguages, languages=20 > and extlang relationships, such that the list of 54 can be disaggregate= d=20 > (perhaps in more than one way)? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Not as if folks don=E2=80=99t have enough else to think about, but it s= eems like=20 > such an analysis, if it hasn=E2=80=99t been done, might raise other pro= ductive=20 > questions. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Don >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > *From:* Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] > *Sent:* Sunday, March 18, 2007 2:37 PM > *To:* Frank Ellermann > *Cc:* ltru@lists.ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang >=20 > =20 >=20 > Another way to look at it is on=20 > http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp, which provides the=20 > language names and breakdowns. >=20 > Mark >=20 > On 3/18/07, *Frank Ellermann* > wrote: >=20 > Don Osborn wrote: >=20 > > what is the actual number of (macro)languages where extlang issues a= rise? >=20 > I try to determine this "manually" for Doug's latest 4645bis: > There are 480 "Prefix:" lines in the extlang part. >=20 > ar 30 ay 2 az 2 > bal 3 bik 5 bua 3 > chm 2 cr 6 del 2 > den 2 din 5 doi 2 > fa 2 ff 9 gba 5 > gn 5 gon 2 grb 5 > hai 2 hmn 21 ik 2 > iu 2 jrb 5 kg 3 > kok 2 kpe 2 kr 3 > ku 3 kv 2 lah 8 > man 7 mg 10 mn 2 > ms 13 mwr 6 oc 5 > oj 7 om 4 ps 3 > qu 44 raj 6 rom 7 > sc 4 sgn 124 sq 4 > sw 2 syr 2 tnh 4 > uz 2 yi 2 za 2 > zap 58 zh 13 zza 2 >=20 > That's 54 at the moment. >=20 > Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Mark >=20 >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 12:10:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTKRK-00055E-Db; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:10:30 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTKRJ-000554-4o for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:10:29 -0400 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.244]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTKRE-00021U-Br for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:10:29 -0400 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c18so1338330anc for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:10:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ms5NjgPrsNFh+iSI9cjesjD6qIU0fma8khyCcLrj2FF0paGiD/z5BW5cndtMuoxRUUDODOd1aRJtxX0RzGh/+4l7i1woM4Lm14GzictBO3b79c1vHOcAwrByG1jY5HcxptprhYah1WzV73Jp4v9pB8G2+o1TD//FJ4MPp1UeZe0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rLgRHMX9i7pTmDWYpHYedHCPYOvKPmf9HR/O4QuergfYkDzBNuFf9OhCHJhVuz0ad0OvUNdaMEEJm3m3Y0u+eWLJBJ1CWkAl1glT7mOAD1ile3zGGMzZdX03/9/RRcFBZ39mWujkAzSteIsnaVSi/1tvOlvh9CCm0cPJ8i0No6Y= Received: by 10.100.143.1 with SMTP id q1mr3873083and.1174320623399; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703190910u636658b1g56489b0d30d2333a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:10:23 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang In-Reply-To: <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1c520ffd384ea4b5 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32604d42645517c44d778f1d111b40a6 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0990807351==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0990807351== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_158599_4174268.1174320623145" ------=_Part_158599_4174268.1174320623145 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I see it a somewhat different way. The fact that there is a macro language (zh), should not skew the way we encode an individual language (yue). You say: "Extlangs help this a little by avoiding the choice on the initial subtag. Thus: "ar-EG" is related to "ar-arz-EG" and "ar-arb-EG" in distinct and somewhat logical ways." However, functionally, we have to see advantage in subordinating some languages as extlangs. There isn't value if they just add complication, as per your "The problem with lookup (and I use lookup extensively, so it concerns me deeply) might suggest that some extra smarts related to extlangs is going to be needed." In order to have a good case for the extlang model, we would need to see concrete scenarios where we can demonstrate that "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue" work better than "cmn" and "yue" resp., and demonstration that those are more important than the scenarios where they cause problems. Note that ISO 639-3 does not at all force the use of the extlang model; the extlang model is just one possible way of expressing the information in ISO 639-3. We already have macrolanguages and "subordinate" languages in BCP 47, but we put them at the same level. For example, ISO 639-3 already categorizes no and sh as macrolanguages, and nb, no and sr, hr, and bs as subordinate to them. We are not going to (and cannot) be forcing users to encode nb as no-nb, nor sr as sh-sr. We shouldn't be making Cantonese a subordinate language either. At one point, I did think that having the extlang structure would be better, but the more I get into actually implementing them, the more I find that they are just a complication for no good result. What I think we should instead be doing is adding a field to the registry that says that X is a macro language for Y, and adding information to 4647 that indicates how one can make use of this information in matching. That would also extend to the current situation with no and sh in a uniform manner. It is also a much less fragile mechanism: one can add more such X,Y relations over time without gumming up everything. Mark On 3/19/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > The idea of macro-languages is that they are not, themselves, languages. > Rather, they are groupings of languages that can be usefully referred to > collectively. That is, strictly speaking, "Chinese" (meaning "zh") isn't > a language---and neither is "Arabic" (by which I mean the code "ar"). > > Unfortunately, that isn't common usage or understanding of the > situation. To most people, "Arabic" is a language. The idea that it has > regional or other variations seems natural enough, but not, perhaps, > that it is a set of somewhat related languages that share a historical > and/or written tradition. > > Allowing both the macro- and plain-language codes on the same level is > recipe for confusion: does "ar-EG" == "arb-EG" == "arz" == "arz-EG"? > What is supposed to match? Which tag should be used for a given > document? How should one distinguish these? > > We have a tradition, furthermore, of not having "secret information" in > language tags requiring extra mapping tables to make sense of or process > the tags. This tradition is punctuated (and punctured) by an equal > tradition of assigning "secret" meaning to language tags. Thus, for the > longest time, "zh-TW" meant "Traditional Chinese". > > Extlangs help this a little by avoiding the choice on the initial > subtag. Thus: "ar-EG" is related to "ar-arz-EG" and "ar-arb-EG" in > distinct and somewhat logical ways. > > Mark's concern is that this tagging system doesn't play nicely with > basic filtering. He's not cited the fact that we have two filtering > schemes: extended filtering works more reasonably with extlangs. > "zh-yue-Hans-CN", "zh-cmn-Hans", and "zh-Hans-CN" all match the range > "zh-Hans", for example. > > The problem with lookup (and I use lookup extensively, so it concerns me > deeply) might suggest that some extra smarts related to extlangs is > going to be needed. On the other hand, some of this is going to have to > be related to Maxim #1: "Tag Content Wisely". Choosing to avoid extlangs > where they add no distinguishing information (not uncommon in resource > file lookup for Arabic or Chinese, say) or *consistently* including them > when they do (Lahnda???) will make things better. > > I admit to a good bit of trepidation writing the above, though. > > Addison > > Don Osborn wrote: > > Thanks Frank for the summary list and Mark for the pointer. Actually I > > was going to reference that page and ask if it is exactly what is in > > question. > > > > > > > > Next (trying my luck here), is there any kind of way(s) that these can > > be subgrouped? For instance ar ends up referring to standard Arabic, if > > I understand correctly, and zh has been discussed already a lot; but > > some other macrolanguages do not necessarily have a single standard > > form. Some (macro) languages have a lot more in writing than others. > > What I'm getting at is are there different sets of (possible) > > complications that can be identified for the macrolanguages, languages > > and extlang relationships, such that the list of 54 can be disaggregated > > (perhaps in more than one way)? > > > > > > > > Not as if folks don't have enough else to think about, but it seems like > > such an analysis, if it hasn't been done, might raise other productive > > questions. > > > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] > > *Sent:* Sunday, March 18, 2007 2:37 PM > > *To:* Frank Ellermann > > *Cc:* ltru@lists.ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang > > > > > > > > Another way to look at it is on > > http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp, which provides the > > language names and breakdowns. > > > > Mark > > > > On 3/18/07, *Frank Ellermann* > > wrote: > > > > Don Osborn wrote: > > > > > what is the actual number of (macro)languages where extlang issues > arise? > > > > I try to determine this "manually" for Doug's latest 4645bis: > > There are 480 "Prefix:" lines in the extlang part. > > > > ar 30 ay 2 az 2 > > bal 3 bik 5 bua 3 > > chm 2 cr 6 del 2 > > den 2 din 5 doi 2 > > fa 2 ff 9 gba 5 > > gn 5 gon 2 grb 5 > > hai 2 hmn 21 ik 2 > > iu 2 jrb 5 kg 3 > > kok 2 kpe 2 kr 3 > > ku 3 kv 2 lah 8 > > man 7 mg 10 mn 2 > > ms 13 mwr 6 oc 5 > > oj 7 om 4 ps 3 > > qu 44 raj 6 rom 7 > > sc 4 sgn 124 sq 4 > > sw 2 syr 2 tnh 4 > > uz 2 yi 2 za 2 > > zap 58 zh 13 zza 2 > > > > That's 54 at the moment. > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mark > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > -- Mark ------=_Part_158599_4174268.1174320623145 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SSBzZWUgaXQgYSBzb21ld2hhdCBkaWZmZXJlbnQgd2F5LiBUaGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0IHRoZXJlIGlz IGEgbWFjcm8gbGFuZ3VhZ2UgKHpoKSwgc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBza2V3IHRoZSB3YXkgd2UgZW5jb2Rl IGFuIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgKHl1ZSkuIFlvdSBzYXk6ICZxdW90O0V4dGxhbmdzIGhl bHAgdGhpcyBhIGxpdHRsZSBieSBhdm9pZGluZyB0aGUgY2hvaWNlIG9uIHRoZSBpbml0aWFsIHN1 YnRhZy4gVGh1czogJnF1b3Q7YXItRUcmcXVvdDsgaXMgcmVsYXRlZCB0byAmcXVvdDthci1hcnot RUcmcXVvdDsgYW5kICZxdW90O2FyLWFyYi1FRyZxdW90OyBpbiBkaXN0aW5jdCBhbmQgc29tZXdo YXQgbG9naWNhbCB3YXlzLiZxdW90Owo8YnI+PGJyPkhvd2V2ZXIsIDxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250 LXdlaWdodDogYm9sZDsiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXN0eWxlOiBpdGFsaWM7Ij5mdW5jdGlv bmFsbHk8L3NwYW4+PC9zcGFuPiwgd2UgaGF2ZSB0byBzZWUgYWR2YW50YWdlIGluIHN1Ym9yZGlu YXRpbmcgc29tZSBsYW5ndWFnZXMgYXMgZXh0bGFuZ3MuIFRoZXJlIGlzbiYjMzk7dCB2YWx1ZSBp 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bGwiPjxicj4tLSA8YnI+TWFyawo= ------=_Part_158599_4174268.1174320623145-- --===============0990807351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0990807351==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 21:12:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTSu7-0005iN-PY; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:12:47 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTSu6-0005cY-JB for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:12:46 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTStu-0007pb-Ns for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:12:46 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTStp-0002zK-LL; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:12:29 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:12:29 -0400 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Message-ID: <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> References: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: 'Frank Ellermann' , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > The idea of macro-languages is that they are not, themselves, languages. > Rather, they are groupings of languages that can be usefully referred to > collectively. That is, strictly speaking, "Chinese" (meaning "zh") isn't > a language---and neither is "Arabic" (by which I mean the code "ar"). Collections are one thing and macrolanguages are another. A macrolanguage is a grouping of languages that can usefully be treated as a single language in certain contexts. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan I am he that buries his friends alive and drowns them and draws them alive again from the water. I came from the end of a bag, but no bag went over me. I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider. --Bilbo to Smaug _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 21:26:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTT6u-0006v6-JL; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:26:00 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTT6t-0006uv-BR for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:25:59 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTT6m-00016y-Uw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:25:58 -0400 Received: from [10.72.72.188] (snvvpn1-10-72-72-c188.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.72.188]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2K1PZKd060687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:25:38 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QWSE0T/ho1+MAJuDwkhGM6P4/ett+HHP2lDUvG5rf06Arybife+vFdXRcXWWWNs8 Message-ID: <45FF380E.5050402@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:25:34 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang References: <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703190910u636658b1g56489b0d30d2333a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703190910u636658b1g56489b0d30d2333a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 501044f827b673024f6a4cb1d46e67d2 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > I see it a somewhat different way. The fact that there is a macro > language (zh), should not skew the way we encode an individual language > (yue). You say: "Extlangs help this a little by avoiding the choice on > the initial subtag. Thus: "ar-EG" is related to "ar-arz-EG" and > "ar-arb-EG" in distinct and somewhat logical ways." I'm not sure we see it a different way. My main problem is not with the body of your argument: most of the macrolanguages are actually rare in practice and their constituent languages can be encoded on the top level without rancor. This will represent a minimum of interruption for users. Some content will be best tagged with the macro language and some with the constituent language. My basic problem is with the two widely used and accepted subtags 'ar' and 'zh'. You're asking for users to change to using a new set of tags for these languages/"languages". How should users choose between the current practice ("zh-Hans-CN", "ar-EG") and "modern" practice ("cmn-Hans-CN", "arb-EG")? It isn't clear. This is the original justification for extlang: to help users of widely used macro-language tags adopt the right tagging approach in a compatible manner. > > However, functionally, we have to see advantage in subordinating some > languages as extlangs. There isn't value if they just add complication, > as per your "The problem with lookup (and I use lookup extensively, so > it concerns me deeply) might suggest that some extra smarts related to > extlangs is going to be needed." The advantage of subordinating some languages is that there is a significant body of content already tagged with the macro-language code and that the macro-language retains a broadly applicable set of uses: there is, in many senses, a real thing called "Chinese" or "Arabic". With extlangs, the "subordinated" language code can be added to tags in a manner consistent with the matching schemes and tagging already in place. "sgn" benefits mightily from this scheme. I believe that at least "zh" does (given that written forms of Chinese, to a significant degree, are not very distinctive between the various Sinitic languages). > > In order to have a good case for the extlang model, we would need to see > concrete scenarios where we can demonstrate that "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue" > work better than "cmn" and "yue" resp., and demonstration that those are > more important than the scenarios where they cause problems. I think your citation of Norwegian is not a good example to pick on. Historically the subtags 'nn' and 'nb' have been problematic: they overlap with the more common 'no'. The existence of three subtags for the language and its variations is confusing, and, ultimately, not that useful... since no one is ever sure if some 'no' labeled resources exist (or not). This case can perhaps be extended to the Mandarin/Cantonese/etc. case as an example where extlangs would have been less painful than full-fledged language codes? > > Note that ISO 639-3 does not at all force the use of the extlang model; > the extlang model is just one possible way of expressing the information > in ISO 639-3. That's right. I think I suggested this as one of the solutions. > We already have macrolanguages and "subordinate" languages > in BCP 47, but we put them at the same level. No, we didn't recognize the distinction: each primary language subtag is supposed to encode "a language". This has been occasionally confusing for users who expect the relationship to have meaning. > We shouldn't be > making Cantonese a subordinate language either. The anti-question would be: why *not*? It's quite clear that "zh-HK" doesn't mean "Cantonese" any more than "zh-TW" meant "Traditional Chinese". The question of whether to use extlang or not is not a value judgment about the language, but merely an encoding question. In fact, for the most part, what you're suggesting is little different from using extlang. Let's explore... Let's say I request "zh-yue-Hant-HK". The default lookup scheme produces: zh-yue-Hant-HK zh-yue-Hant zh-yue zh One way to have a lookup implementation use macro-language information would be if it were free to treat extlangs as equivalencies or ignorable. The fallback could be: zh-yue-Hant-HK zh-Hant-HK (implied) zh-yue-Hant zh-Hant (implied) zh-yue zh ...and let's say we request without extlang (zh-Hant-HK): zh-Hant-HK zh-Hant zh This misses any content tagged with 'yue'. We could say that any "zh-yue" or "zh-cmn" content also matches on each level (an implied match), but this would be more troubling (the user didn't request that specific content): zh-Hant-HK zh-yue-Hant-HK (implied) zh-Hant zh-yue-Hant (implied) zh zh-cmn (implied, just for the sake of ickiness) Now consider extended filtering for a second. A range of "zh-Hant" matches each of: zh-Hant zh-yue-Hant zh-cmn-Hant zh-Hant-CN zh-yue-Hant-CN This is logical. Specifying "zh-yue" would not find a tag "zh-Hant" that might be Cantonese, though. Now what you're suggesting is that we put "yue" on the top-level. Some Cantonese content will thus be tagged as "yue-*" and some as "zh-*". One of two things has to happen. If I request "yue", I might get some content labeled "zh". Or if I request some content labeled "yue" I do NOT get any content labeled "zh" that might actually be Cantonese. This doesn't solve the lookup problem: yue-Hant-HK zh-Hant-HK (implied) yue-Hant zh-Hant (implied) yue zh (implied) This pattern is identical to the pattern I get (above, first example), but with the complication of having the mapping table. The compelling part of your argument is if we think in terms of a language priority list instead. Then my fallback is: yue-Hant-HK yue-Hant yue zh-Hant-HK zh-Hant zh Here we see the advantage for using 'yue' on the top level: we don't get to the (probably Simplified) 'zh' and (probably Mandarin) 'zh-Hant' resources too early (or at all, if we omit the pass through 'zh'-bearing ranges). > > At one point, I did think that having the extlang structure would be > better, but the more I get into actually implementing them, the more I > find that they are just a complication for no good result. What I think > we should instead be doing is adding a field to the registry that says > that X is a macro language for Y, and adding information to 4647 that > indicates how one can make use of this information in matching. My implementations just don't make me think it is that complicated. Of course, most of my implementations have control over both the content (tags) and ranges used in the selection---not to mention defaulting behavior. I haven't gotten to the point yet of needing to identify the spoken Chinese variations in uncontrolled content, so haven't really the problems you do yet. Thinking about them suggests, however, that I'll want the broader selection profile that extlang gives me than the narrower one that (multiple choice) primary language gives me on the top level. That's because the more structure a tag has, the more information it can contain and thus the simpler the lookup/filtering is to do. If an equivalence table is required, we'll, for the first time, be reliant on external data tables to do simple select-type matching (think about simplistic implementations such as the :lang pseudo-attribute in CSS for a moment!). And I'd like to avoid that if possible. I recognize what you're saying is valid, for the kinds of data you're working with. But I'm concerned equally that content tagging will be mixed up for years to come because users do not understand when and whether to use 'zh' vs. 'cmn' or 'ar' vs 'arb'. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 00:54:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTWLv-0003FI-0v; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:53:43 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTWLu-0003EA-5R for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:53:42 -0400 Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201] helo=kabissa.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTWKH-0000O3-7X for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:52:02 -0400 Received: (qmail 6797 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2007 23:51:42 -0500 Received: from pool-71-252-39-214.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (71.252.39.214) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 19 Mar 2007 23:51:41 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: "'John Cowan'" , "'Addison Phillips'" References: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:51:37 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcdqjNZ/b6tX10e0TrWpdJQpFqb3GAADc/fA Content-Language: en-us X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Cc: 'Frank Ellermann' , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Reply below... > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] ... > > Addison Phillips scripsit: > > > The idea of macro-languages is that they are not, themselves, > languages. > > Rather, they are groupings of languages that can be usefully referred > to > > collectively. That is, strictly speaking, "Chinese" (meaning "zh") > isn't > > a language---and neither is "Arabic" (by which I mean the code "ar"). > > Collections are one thing and macrolanguages are another. A > macrolanguage > is a grouping of languages that can usefully be treated as a single > language in certain contexts. Thanks, John. The question I have is what are the contexts? IOW, are the various macrolanguage-sublanguage relationships, which seem to represent varying realities in terms of usage, categorizable into certain types? If so might that help discussions? "Macrolanguage" is an interesting concept, but whatever its original intent (and whatever linguists in general think of it), it seems bound to accrue other meanings and applications. This is not necessarily bad though it might complicate life for coding. Part of the issue with Arabic may be that one standard form is used pretty widely while the spoken forms vary. I've heard from localisers of Arabic that they only really use one Arabic. In the case of Arabic in Egypt, does anyone write arz? In literature, theater, journalism, or...? I don't know, but I suspect that the existence of the code for "Egyptian spoken Arabic" (which by the way is only one of the colloquial forms in the country it seems) will prompt some to choose it for what might more appropriately be ar-EG or arb-EG. The part that I don't know about Arabic far exceeds the little I think I know, so best to stop here. When I think of Fula (ff) this is another complex issue. I won't get into it now, but a couple of things come to mind: publications in the 1970s or so that treated the (macro)language as a whole, and "pan-Fula" dictionaries (with notes re different usages among the varieties of Fula). I have been talking up the idea of a pan-Fula monolingual dictionary online, and hope to discuss that some more in a few days (at ACAL/ALTA in Gainesville). It really seems like you can shift perspective and see such tongues from the point of their functional unity or their functional differences. All this has me thinking that a macrolanguage is maybe something like a Platonic ideal but with a functional aspect. Thus macrolanguages are actually all over the place, but we don't see them as such since they so often coincide each with one language. So for instance Hausa is a macrolanguage with only one language (and some dialect differences from west to east). On the other hand, something like Fula is a macrolanguage with several languages that have high degrees of interintelligibility. IOW, language has an ideological component reflected in "macrolanguage," which has some practical meaning/use. Take the case of Runyakitara in western Uganda, which is a conscious effort to provide a standard for a group of 4 very close languages that also have a common historical identity - is that creating a macrolanguage or identifying something that was always there? (conversely, none of the 4 tongues under that were themselves cases of "macrolanguages" in the sense I'm exploring here). Not sure that any of this helps the coding questions at hand but maybe it gives another useful perspective on possible use of "macrolanguage." All the best. Don _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 05:45:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTaui-0006eE-MC; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:45:56 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTaui-0006e4-06 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:45:56 -0400 Received: from bortzmeyer.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTaug-0008AM-OU for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:45:55 -0400 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 27BD224080E; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:45:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by fetiche (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3960C17BD9; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:42:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:42:00 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20070320094200.GA2996@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <20070312130010.GA16886@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070312130010.GA16886@nic.fr> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Subject: [Ltru] Re: IANA, UTF-8 and the Language Subtag Registry X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Mar 12, 2007 at 02:00:10PM +0100, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote a message of 21 lines which said: > What are the opinions of IANA about it? Can you receive and handle > UTF-8 properly? Can you convert easily between &#xNNN; or \uNNNN and > UTF-8? Any preferences? I just discussed the matter with Barbara Coleman (IANA), at the IETF meeting. She said that IANA has no problem with UTF-8, providing that it is clearly specified in the RFC, with the list of allowed characters, if IANA is to check them (which is not the case for the Description fields, I believe, unlike subtags where IANA checks they are unique). And the transition to XML goes on but no date is announced. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 06:13:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTbLf-00015Q-Sk; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:13:47 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTbLf-00015I-CG for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:13:47 -0400 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.188]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTbLd-00076o-Ko for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:13:47 -0400 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l36so274747nfa for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:13:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=F66tP6/X6L6OBtnl+Jbv3UT/sOwz34+vVud/ZVcgELppsu++CLUlisJTHuR4RPZLYIOS2Ex9IrFs0Dz+K/BWGZ/GYKaf9RpdkEGyC8M6K5ZeE4S5xc9go3bSh0M/4QFgDJyBf4IG4TfyuVbhHxhSoRQXvYD2MKsdXtQoO7AkIz8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=SMsyTXIm9Oezl4Vahwn3ZHvo0MZQzmkSKGeLSwe2ZoStJQoKRL6IQtl5RI3WRpler0wMNupbHzhRoVWBQXpGqZhdWYWFZDsEoQme4/e2h7RfW062sj+4p0kOpWt9SyUUsgY8w5cDK8lbfdbZrrWr2D/ojWPBnMioY4YQKM/+pdk= Received: by 10.82.113.6 with SMTP id l6mr12285031buc.1174385624352; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.148.11 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <41a006820703200313m491874d4i833fe13fb9108a9a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:13:44 +0100 From: GerardM To: "Don Osborn" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang In-Reply-To: <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6640e3bbe8a4d70c4469bcdcbbf0921d Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1149654262==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1149654262== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_124972_26186584.1174385624296" ------=_Part_124972_26186584.1174385624296 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi, Reading Don, it is yet another great argument to be sensible and allow for the use of tags that are the single lowest denominator for a language. Don explains quite nicely the ambiguity involved. When you have a choice between ar-EG and arz and think you can say they are the same, how would you then code spoken Egyptian as used by the immigrant community in the USA ?? I would say that ar-arz-US and arz-US are appropriate. The notion that ar-EG is necessarily the same as arz is imho wrong. Coding it like ar-EG-US is probably not acceptable. Thanks, Gerard On 3/20/07, Don Osborn wrote: > > Reply below... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > ... > > > > Addison Phillips scripsit: > > > > > The idea of macro-languages is that they are not, themselves, > > languages. > > > Rather, they are groupings of languages that can be usefully referred > > to > > > collectively. That is, strictly speaking, "Chinese" (meaning "zh") > > isn't > > > a language---and neither is "Arabic" (by which I mean the code "ar"). > > > > Collections are one thing and macrolanguages are another. A > > macrolanguage > > is a grouping of languages that can usefully be treated as a single > > language in certain contexts. > > Thanks, John. The question I have is what are the contexts? IOW, are the > various macrolanguage-sublanguage relationships, which seem to represent > varying realities in terms of usage, categorizable into certain types? If > so > might that help discussions? > > "Macrolanguage" is an interesting concept, but whatever its original > intent > (and whatever linguists in general think of it), it seems bound to accrue > other meanings and applications. This is not necessarily bad though it > might > complicate life for coding. > > Part of the issue with Arabic may be that one standard form is used pretty > widely while the spoken forms vary. I've heard from localisers of Arabic > that they only really use one Arabic. In the case of Arabic in Egypt, does > anyone write arz? In literature, theater, journalism, or...? I don't know, > but I suspect that the existence of the code for "Egyptian spoken Arabic" > (which by the way is only one of the colloquial forms in the country it > seems) will prompt some to choose it for what might more appropriately be > ar-EG or arb-EG. The part that I don't know about Arabic far exceeds the > little I think I know, so best to stop here. > > When I think of Fula (ff) this is another complex issue. I won't get into > it > now, but a couple of things come to mind: publications in the 1970s or so > that treated the (macro)language as a whole, and "pan-Fula" dictionaries > (with notes re different usages among the varieties of Fula). I have been > talking up the idea of a pan-Fula monolingual dictionary online, and hope > to > discuss that some more in a few days (at ACAL/ALTA in Gainesville). It > really seems like you can shift perspective and see such tongues from the > point of their functional unity or their functional differences. > > All this has me thinking that a macrolanguage is > maybe something like a Platonic ideal but with a functional aspect. Thus > macrolanguages are actually all over the place, but we don't see them as > such since they so often coincide each with one language. So for instance > Hausa is a macrolanguage with only one language (and some dialect > differences from west to east). On the other hand, something like Fula is > a > macrolanguage with several languages that have high degrees of > interintelligibility. IOW, language has an ideological component reflected > in "macrolanguage," which has some practical meaning/use. Take the case of > Runyakitara in western Uganda, which is a conscious effort to provide a > standard for a group of 4 very close languages that also have a common > historical identity - is that creating a macrolanguage or identifying > something that was always there? (conversely, none of the 4 tongues under > that were themselves cases of "macrolanguages" in the sense I'm exploring > here). > > Not sure that any of this helps the coding questions at hand but maybe it > gives another useful perspective on possible use of "macrolanguage." > > All the best. > > Don > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_124972_26186584.1174385624296 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi,
Reading Don, it is yet another great argument to be sensible and allow for the use of tags that are the single lowest denominator for a language. Don explains quite nicely the ambiguity involved.

When you have a choice between ar-EG and arz and think you can say they are the same, how would you then code spoken Egyptian as used by the immigrant community in the USA ?? I would say that ar-arz-US and arz-US are appropriate. The notion that ar-EG is necessarily the same as arz is imho wrong. Coding it like ar-EG-US is probably not acceptable.

Thanks,
    Gerard

On 3/20/07, Don Osborn <dzo@bisharat.net> wrote:
Reply below...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]
...
>
> Addison Phillips scripsit:
>
> > The idea of macro-languages is that they are not, themselves,
> languages.
> > Rather, they are groupings of languages that can be usefully referred
> to
> > collectively. That is, strictly speaking, "Chinese" (meaning "zh")
> isn't
> > a language---and neither is "Arabic" (by which I mean the code "ar").
>
> Collections are one thing and macrolanguages are another.  A
> macrolanguage
> is a grouping of languages that can usefully be treated as a single
> language in certain contexts.

Thanks, John. The question I have is what are the contexts? IOW, are the
various macrolanguage-sublanguage relationships, which seem to represent
varying realities in terms of usage, categorizable into certain types? If so
might that help discussions?

"Macrolanguage" is an interesting concept, but whatever its original intent
(and whatever linguists in general think of it), it seems bound to accrue
other meanings and applications. This is not necessarily bad though it might
complicate life for coding.

Part of the issue with Arabic may be that one standard form is used pretty
widely while the spoken forms vary. I've heard from localisers of Arabic
that they only really use one Arabic. In the case of Arabic in Egypt, does
anyone write arz? In literature, theater, journalism, or...? I don't know,
but I suspect that the existence of the code for "Egyptian spoken Arabic"
(which by the way is only one of the colloquial forms in the country it
seems) will prompt some to choose it for what might more appropriately be
ar-EG or arb-EG. The part that I don't know about Arabic far exceeds the
little I think I know, so best to stop here.

When I think of Fula (ff) this is another complex issue. I won't get into it
now, but a couple of things come to mind: publications in the 1970s or so
that treated the (macro)language as a whole, and "pan-Fula" dictionaries
(with notes re different usages among the varieties of Fula). I have been
talking up the idea of a pan-Fula monolingual dictionary online, and hope to
discuss that some more in a few days (at ACAL/ALTA in Gainesville). It
really seems like you can shift perspective and see such tongues from the
point of their functional unity or their functional differences.

<way out in left field>All this has me thinking that a macrolanguage is
maybe something like a Platonic ideal but with a functional aspect. Thus
macrolanguages are actually all over the place, but we don't see them as
such since they so often coincide each with one language. So for instance
Hausa is a macrolanguage with only one language (and some dialect
differences from west to east). On the other hand, something like Fula is a
macrolanguage with several languages that have high degrees of
interintelligibility. IOW, language has an ideological component reflected
in "macrolanguage," which has some practical meaning/use. Take the case of
Runyakitara in western Uganda, which is a conscious effort to provide a
standard for a group of 4 very close languages that also have a common
historical identity - is that creating a macrolanguage or identifying
something that was always there? (conversely, none of the 4 tongues under
that were themselves cases of "macrolanguages" in the sense I'm exploring
here).</way out in left field>

Not sure that any of this helps the coding questions at hand but maybe it
gives another useful perspective on possible use of "macrolanguage."

All the best.

Don





_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_124972_26186584.1174385624296-- --===============1149654262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1149654262==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 08:34:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTdXg-0001tD-18; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:34:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTdXf-0001sz-9P for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:34:19 -0400 Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201] helo=kabissa.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTdXd-0008AD-FM for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:34:19 -0400 Received: (qmail 485 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2007 06:54:14 -0500 Received: from pool-71-252-39-214.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (71.252.39.214) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 20 Mar 2007 06:54:13 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: "'GerardM'" References: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> <41a006820703200313m491874d4i833fe13fb9108a9a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <41a006820703200313m491874d4i833fe13fb9108a9a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:54:08 -0400 Message-ID: <004501c76ae6$786e8600$694b9200$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acdq2HHqbkwOhSP7RAiC2GbSAgZEuAACgZPg Content-Language: en-us X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c8d1e86bb8f49de8156b6392faa4a63b Cc: 'Frank Ellermann' , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1170320095==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1170320095== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01C76AC4.F15CE600" Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C76AC4.F15CE600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gerard, But what I have heard from some people re Arabic = localization, =E2=80=9Cno one=E2=80=9D writes =E2=80=9Cspoken Egyptian = Arabic=E2=80=9D arz (in Egypt or elsewhere). Maybe that=E2=80=99s an = overstatement (I don=E2=80=99t know), but it reflects a certain reality. = Which is not to suggest that ar-EG is necessarily the same as arz, but = that they describe different realities (perhaps one written, one spoken? = =E2=80=93 if indeed it is that simple). In such a circumstance, what = might seem to be the apparent =E2=80=9CLCD=E2=80=9D unit of language = definition (and coding) may actually not be, or at least may not always = be the single best choice. =20 In other contexts, one might seek an appropriate level of aggregation, = rather than the smallest accurate language description. Such as software = localization for instance (and hence locale). =20 So it seems that the context in combination with the specific realities = of a particular macrolanguage-sublanguage(s) relationship(s) determines = the choice. =20 All the best. =20 Don =20 =20 From: GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:14 AM To: Don Osborn Cc: John Cowan; Addison Phillips; Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang =20 Hoi, Reading Don, it is yet another great argument to be sensible and allow = for the use of tags that are the single lowest denominator for a = language. Don explains quite nicely the ambiguity involved. When you have a choice between ar-EG and arz and think you can say they = are the same, how would you then code spoken Egyptian as used by the = immigrant community in the USA ?? I would say that ar-arz-US and arz-US = are appropriate. The notion that ar-EG is necessarily the same as arz is = imho wrong. Coding it like ar-EG-US is probably not acceptable.=20 Thanks, Gerard On 3/20/07, Don Osborn wrote: Reply below... > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] ... > > Addison Phillips scripsit: > > > The idea of macro-languages is that they are not, themselves,=20 > languages. > > Rather, they are groupings of languages that can be usefully = referred > to > > collectively. That is, strictly speaking, "Chinese" (meaning "zh") > isn't=20 > > a language---and neither is "Arabic" (by which I mean the code = "ar"). > > Collections are one thing and macrolanguages are another. A > macrolanguage > is a grouping of languages that can usefully be treated as a single=20 > language in certain contexts. Thanks, John. The question I have is what are the contexts? IOW, are the various macrolanguage-sublanguage relationships, which seem to represent varying realities in terms of usage, categorizable into certain types? = If so=20 might that help discussions? "Macrolanguage" is an interesting concept, but whatever its original = intent (and whatever linguists in general think of it), it seems bound to = accrue other meanings and applications. This is not necessarily bad though it = might=20 complicate life for coding. Part of the issue with Arabic may be that one standard form is used = pretty widely while the spoken forms vary. I've heard from localisers of Arabic that they only really use one Arabic. In the case of Arabic in Egypt, = does=20 anyone write arz? In literature, theater, journalism, or...? I don't = know, but I suspect that the existence of the code for "Egyptian spoken = Arabic" (which by the way is only one of the colloquial forms in the country it=20 seems) will prompt some to choose it for what might more appropriately = be ar-EG or arb-EG. The part that I don't know about Arabic far exceeds the little I think I know, so best to stop here. When I think of Fula (ff) this is another complex issue. I won't get = into it=20 now, but a couple of things come to mind: publications in the 1970s or = so that treated the (macro)language as a whole, and "pan-Fula" dictionaries (with notes re different usages among the varieties of Fula). I have = been=20 talking up the idea of a pan-Fula monolingual dictionary online, and = hope to discuss that some more in a few days (at ACAL/ALTA in Gainesville). It really seems like you can shift perspective and see such tongues from = the=20 point of their functional unity or their functional differences. All this has me thinking that a macrolanguage is maybe something like a Platonic ideal but with a functional aspect. Thus = macrolanguages are actually all over the place, but we don't see them as such since they so often coincide each with one language. So for = instance Hausa is a macrolanguage with only one language (and some dialect=20 differences from west to east). On the other hand, something like Fula = is a macrolanguage with several languages that have high degrees of interintelligibility. IOW, language has an ideological component = reflected=20 in "macrolanguage," which has some practical meaning/use. Take the case = of Runyakitara in western Uganda, which is a conscious effort to provide a standard for a group of 4 very close languages that also have a common=20 historical identity - is that creating a macrolanguage or identifying something that was always there? (conversely, none of the 4 tongues = under that were themselves cases of "macrolanguages" in the sense I'm = exploring=20 here). Not sure that any of this helps the coding questions at hand but maybe = it gives another useful perspective on possible use of "macrolanguage." All the best.=20 Don _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C76AC4.F15CE600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Gerard, But what I have heard from some people re = Arabic localization, =E2=80=9Cno one=E2=80=9D writes =E2=80=9Cspoken Egyptian Arabic=E2=80=9D = arz (in Egypt or elsewhere). Maybe that=E2=80=99s an overstatement (I don=E2=80=99t know), but it reflects = a certain reality. Which is not to suggest that ar-EG is necessarily the same as arz, but = that they describe different realities (perhaps one written, one spoken? = =E2=80=93 if indeed it is that simple). In such a circumstance, what might seem to be the = apparent =E2=80=9CLCD=E2=80=9D unit of language definition (and coding) may actually not be, or at = least may not always be the single best choice.

 

In other contexts, one might seek an appropriate level of aggregation, rather than the smallest accurate language description. = Such as software localization for instance (and hence = locale).

 

So it seems that the context in combination with the = specific realities of a particular macrolanguage-sublanguage(s) relationship(s) determines the choice.

 

All the best.

 

Don

 

 

From:= GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:14 AM
To: Don Osborn
Cc: John Cowan; Addison Phillips; Frank Ellermann; = ltru@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang

 

Hoi,
Reading Don, it is yet another great argument to be sensible and allow = for the use of tags that are the single lowest denominator for a language. Don = explains quite nicely the ambiguity involved.

When you have a choice between ar-EG and arz and think you can say they = are the same, how would you then code spoken Egyptian as used by the immigrant community in the USA ?? I would say that ar-arz-US and arz-US are = appropriate. The notion that ar-EG is necessarily the same as arz is imho wrong. = Coding it like ar-EG-US is probably not acceptable.

Thanks,
    Gerard

On 3/20/07, Don = Osborn <dzo@bisharat.net> = wrote:

Reply below...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]
...
>
> Addison Phillips scripsit:
>
> > The idea of macro-languages is that they are not, themselves, =
> languages.
> > Rather, they are groupings of languages that can be usefully = referred
> to
> > collectively. That is, strictly speaking, "Chinese" (meaning "zh")
> isn't
> > a language---and neither is "Arabic" (by which I = mean the code "ar").
>
> Collections are one thing and macrolanguages are = another.  A
> macrolanguage
> is a grouping of languages that can usefully be treated as a single =
> language in certain contexts.

Thanks, John. The question I have is what are the contexts? IOW, are = the
various macrolanguage-sublanguage relationships, which seem to = represent
varying realities in terms of usage, categorizable into certain types? = If so
might that help discussions?

"Macrolanguage" is an interesting concept, but whatever its = original intent
(and whatever linguists in general think of it), it seems bound to = accrue
other meanings and applications. This is not necessarily bad though it = might
complicate life for coding.

Part of the issue with Arabic may be that one standard form is used = pretty
widely while the spoken forms vary. I've heard from localisers of = Arabic
that they only really use one Arabic. In the case of Arabic in Egypt, = does
anyone write arz? In literature, theater, journalism, or...? I don't = know,
but I suspect that the existence of the code for "Egyptian spoken Arabic"
(which by the way is only one of the colloquial forms in the country it =
seems) will prompt some to choose it for what might more appropriately = be
ar-EG or arb-EG. The part that I don't know about Arabic far exceeds = the
little I think I know, so best to stop here.

When I think of Fula (ff) this is another complex issue. I won't get = into it
now, but a couple of things come to mind: publications in the 1970s or = so
that treated the (macro)language as a whole, and "pan-Fula" dictionaries
(with notes re different usages among the varieties of Fula). I have = been
talking up the idea of a pan-Fula monolingual dictionary online, and = hope to
discuss that some more in a few days (at ACAL/ALTA in Gainesville). = It
really seems like you can shift perspective and see such tongues from = the
point of their functional unity or their functional differences.

<way out in left field>All this has me thinking that a = macrolanguage is
maybe something like a Platonic ideal but with a functional aspect. Thus =
macrolanguages are actually all over the place, but we don't see them = as
such since they so often coincide each with one language. So for = instance
Hausa is a macrolanguage with only one language (and some dialect
differences from west to east). On the other hand, something like Fula = is a
macrolanguage with several languages that have high degrees of
interintelligibility. IOW, language has an ideological component = reflected
in "macrolanguage," which has some practical meaning/use. Take = the case of
Runyakitara in western Uganda, which is a conscious effort to provide = a
standard for a group of 4 very close languages that also have a common =
historical identity - is that creating a macrolanguage or = identifying
something that was always there? (conversely, none of the 4 tongues = under
that were themselves cases of "macrolanguages" in the sense = I'm exploring
here).</way out in left field>

Not sure that any of this helps the coding questions at hand but maybe = it
gives another useful perspective on possible use of = "macrolanguage."

All the best.

Don





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------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C76AC4.F15CE600-- --===============1170320095== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1170320095==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 08:36:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTdZX-0002bx-V4; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:36:15 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTdZW-0002br-Rv for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:36:14 -0400 Received: from bortzmeyer.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTdZV-0008M8-Jp for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:36:14 -0400 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 5EEF624080E; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:36:12 +0100 (CET) Received: by fetiche (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 51E0E17BD9; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:28:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:28:41 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: GerardM Message-ID: <20070320122840.GA1593@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> <41a006820703200313m491874d4i833fe13fb9108a9a@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41a006820703200313m491874d4i833fe13fb9108a9a@mail.gmail.com> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Mar 20, 2007 at 11:13:44AM +0100, GerardM wrote a message of 155 lines which said: > When you have a choice between ar-EG and arz and think you can say > they are the same, how would you then code spoken Egyptian as used > by the immigrant community in the USA ?? Easy: exactly the same as in his mother country. You do not change the language you speak based on your physical location. It's not because I'm currently in Prague that I write in en-CZ! > I would say that ar-arz-US and arz-US are appropriate. No, unless a special variant appeared among egyptian immigrants in the USA (which is a possibility but not a necessity). _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 09:43:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTecs-0000wi-7f; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:43:46 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTecr-0000wc-Hc for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:43:45 -0400 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTecn-0002lC-VK for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:43:45 -0400 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:43:41 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.186]) with mapi; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:43:41 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:43:37 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: extlang Thread-Index: AcdqjNZ/b6tX10e0TrWpdJQpFqb3GAADc/fAAAcIRUA= Message-ID: References: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> In-Reply-To: <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5d7a7e767f20255fce80fa0b77fb2433 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: Don Osborn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net] >> Collections are one thing and macrolanguages are another. A >> macrolanguage >> is a grouping of languages that can usefully be treated as a single >> language in certain contexts. > > Thanks, John. The question I have is what are the contexts? IOW, > are the various macrolanguage-sublanguage relationships, which seem > to represent varying realities in terms of usage, categorizable into > certain types? Answering that involves considering what are the reasons one person might h= ave for grouping and what are the reasons that another might have for split= ting. Splitting The splitting in most or all cases we're dealing with (where macrolanguages= are involved) comes from Ethnologue. The rational is that, on the basis of= analysis of the spoken language (the vast majority of languages catalogued= being unwritten), including things like lexical similarities, comprehensio= n testing, assessment of usage or assessment of attitudes, the conclusion i= s drawn that development of literature in one form is unlikely to provide a= dequate communication for all of the communities involved. (That's the basi= c principle; it may or may not have been consistently and correctly applied= in all instances.) Note that Ethnologue has not always followed every claim of a split. A fami= liar example is Serbo-Croatian vs. Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian, for which= E only adopted the split only in the latest edition. Or, a less familiar e= xample: I know that, in Mexico, among Mixtec varieties, many communities ar= e wont to make hyper-differentiations, saying that each village is differen= t when researchers find no observable barrier to communication: in these ca= ses, E does not make distinctions the speakers themselves might indicate. At the same time, the research should be looking for situations in which di= stinct spoken varieties can be bridged by a common literature, and that has= not always happened. Sometimes that may have been because those doing the = research didn't have that mindset. But in some cases, probably the research= has gotten dated with conditions having changed in ways that make such mer= ging more feasible. Grouping The reasons for grouping are various: - The various communities share in common a single form of communication th= at de facto is in usage. - There is a common perception (whether among the communities themselves or= among people outside the communities) that there a single identity. (In so= me cases, the need of any split may have only lately come to light.) - In spite of differences, policies or practice have been adopted to bring = different varieties together with a common literary form. - Someone gathering information resources in or about the language varietie= s in question doesn't have the need to differentiate between them. (E.g. a = library that has neither the resources or the demand for distinguishing the= items -- especially likely if the common perceptions are that there's just= one entity.) Our familiar macrolanguage, Chinese, is an example of the first two: there = is a written form that for the most part is shared, and for some time that = has contributed to a perception that it's all one language. The third is something that may relate to cases such as Fula, which you men= tioned. The last is one that certainly pertains to some of the entries in 639-2. Th= ere definitely are cases in which librarians have done one of the following= : - A group of undeveloped varieties that share a label (e.g. "Quechua") are = treated as a single category for cataloguing purposes. - An ID is assigned for a major, developed variety (e.g., Malay); but then = there are also minor varieties (undeveloped, smaller communities) that shar= e the same label, and the librarians group those with the major language fo= r cataloguing purposes. - A taxonomy (perhaps a folk taxonomy) exists in which varieties were group= ed under a single label for some convenience, and this is used as the basis= for cataloguing. (E.g., "Lahnda", "Bihari"). In cases like Quechua, Bihari or Lahnda in which librarians have adopted gr= oupings of varieties at comparable levels of development, the option existe= d with the introduction of 639-3 to treat the existing 639-2 ID either as a= collection or as a macrolanguage. The question was whether there was some = reason to warrant the latter. Taking Quechua as an example, I know that the= re's some ethnic nationalist sentiment that promotes a single identity, and= that there has also been some recent language development activity that tr= eated "Quechua" as one. On that basis, I suggested that macrolanguage might= be the better property to assign, and the JAC just went along. In the case= of Bihari, I wasn't aware of any utility for treating it as a macrolanguag= e, so suggested it be considered a collection, and the JAC went along. Who = can judge whether these were the "right" decisions. I think cases like Malay are unfortunate: it doesn't seem to me that there'= s a particular use for the grouping in software applications, but the group= ing was done in other applications. Because of the latter, msa can't be tre= ated as an individual-language ID, and I wouldn't like the idea of resource= s for a major language like Malay getting tagged with a collection ID. So, = that leaves the macrolanguage alternative. Again, who can tell me if that w= as the right decision? Now, as for IETF lang tags, I think it's reasonable to ask whether it make = sense to use the extlang mechanism in all these cases. For Chinese, extlang= s were basically introduced years ago. Does it also make sense for Quechua,= Lahnda, Malay and all the others to do the same? I don't know. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 09:55:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTeoX-00036G-GY; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:55:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTeoV-00035j-9e for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:55:48 -0400 Received: from mta15.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77] helo=mta15.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTeoS-0003jA-1F for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:55:47 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070320135543.DSSM2405.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:55:43 -0400 Message-ID: <005301c76af7$73d8c180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:55:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Subject: [Ltru] Re: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org GerardM wrote: > When you have a choice between ar-EG and arz and think you can say > they are the same, how would you then code spoken Egyptian as used by > the immigrant community in the USA ?? I would say that ar-arz-US and > arz-US are appropriate. The notion that ar-EG is necessarily the same > as arz is imho wrong. "-US" is appropriate only to the extent that the immigrant community speaks a sufficiently different flavor of (Egyptian) Arabic to justify different tagging. It is not justified if the language is the same as spoken in Egypt, but the people happen to reside in the United States. > Coding it like ar-EG-US is probably not acceptable. Of course not. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 10:11:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTf46-0002Pl-Sr; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:11:54 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTf43-0002KP-QR for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:11:51 -0400 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTezb-0008On-V3 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:07:28 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070320140711.LBSK6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:07:11 -0400 Message-ID: <005701c76af9$0dcbced0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:07:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Subject: [Ltru] Re: IANA, UTF-8 and the Language Subtag Registry X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > I just discussed the matter with Barbara Coleman (IANA), at the IETF > meeting. She said that IANA has no problem with UTF-8, providing that > it is clearly specified in the RFC, with the list of allowed > characters, if IANA is to check them (which is not the case for the > Description fields, I believe, unlike subtags where IANA checks they > are unique). Subtags are constrained to be Basic Latin (ASCII) letters and digits, as stated in RFC 4646, and are unaffected by a change from hex NCRs to UTF-8. Descriptions and comments could theoretically include almost any ISO 10646 character, so providing a list would make little sense. Did Barbara say anything about converting the data from hex NCRs *to* UTF-8? That was the crux as far as I was concerned. We want the Registry to be in UTF-8, but it will be delivered via an I-D that must use hex NCRs. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 10:17:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTf9f-0006V6-6p; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:17:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTf9e-0006RT-3K for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:17:38 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTf9U-0001vL-AS for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:17:38 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070320141725.GLBJ2196.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:17:25 -0400 Message-ID: <005b01c76afa$7c111110$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:17:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Subject: [Ltru] Re: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Don Osborn wrote: > "Macrolanguage" is an interesting concept, but whatever its original > intent (and whatever linguists in general think of it), it seems bound > to accrue other meanings and applications. This is not necessarily bad > though it might complicate life for coding. I think we would do well to remember that macrolanguages are a concept defined by ISO 639/RA, and we need to respect the concept as they have defined it regardless of how we choose to reflect it in language tags. As a WG we should not get involved in extending the concept, although some might wish to do so as individuals (and that is between them and ISO 639/RA). There is such a diversity of interpretations of the macrolanguage concept on this list alone that I am concerned this WG will be perceived, both within and without, as responsible for (a) defining the concept, (b) extending the definition, or (c) assigning macrolanguages. None of this is our job. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 10:35:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTfRA-0005qD-Uf; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:35:44 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTfR9-0005q8-Pt for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:35:43 -0400 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.189]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTfR6-0004sb-6z for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:35:43 -0400 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l36so376947nfa for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:35:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=M6cqBU43cd63bx0p878cilDwLWE7jsk9bbAGzt+QcsYB+okp+Pp/oUUtTlGxBBQAFq4rjLovFl5aenB7eWNsX1XevnZx85nDzQR8Ve2N25hzX+9zyGgBiLmSP9apvYfI4Z8yFwjby0gcM6S5nTlSEDFYQQ3z+HoP1NfgXsjvVeE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qPmDFpYZPEuY1QPQ2r3ffugtKTcP5132d+fIywpjURWt+fSTRaIrDbfnCRlUulxfGV7JWoVOwCgA3f4OpLqPDGFC9MPEap5hEWCdAHAgUjIEYUhqXSM69lQMGX+BbpYy8IhojrEQq96fnJcWYGPqPiUQKhjj31WqDLLs9Yw7zfs= Received: by 10.82.167.5 with SMTP id p5mr12724012bue.1174400925268; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.2? ( [62.195.155.247]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id b36sm2063263ika.2007.03.20.07.28.44; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <45FFEF73.3020506@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:28:03 +0100 From: Gerard Meijssen User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang References: <005301c76af7$73d8c180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <005301c76af7$73d8c180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hoi, The Dutch expat communities in the US speak Dutch but it is markedly different from the modern Dutch spoken in the Netherlands and Belgium. Not only is the Dutch "old fashioned" it has also included some Americanisms where you might find Anglicisms or a Dutch word in the Netherlands. My ar-EG and arz-eg example follows this example; it is not safe to equate ar-EG as exclusively the same as arz or arz-EG and ar-arz-EG. Thanks, Gerard Doug Ewell schreef: > GerardM wrote: > >> When you have a choice between ar-EG and arz and think you can say >> they are the same, how would you then code spoken Egyptian as used by >> the immigrant community in the USA ?? I would say that ar-arz-US and >> arz-US are appropriate. The notion that ar-EG is necessarily the same >> as arz is imho wrong. > > "-US" is appropriate only to the extent that the immigrant community > speaks a sufficiently different flavor of (Egyptian) Arabic to justify > different tagging. It is not justified if the language is the same as > spoken in Egypt, but the people happen to reside in the United States. > >> Coding it like ar-EG-US is probably not acceptable. > > Of course not. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 10:41:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTfWE-0008Jt-1r; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:40:58 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTfWC-0008HE-GK for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:40:56 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTfVz-0006Tv-FP for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:40:56 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070320144042.PJOC2272.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:40:42 +0000 Message-ID: <006101c76afd$bc9833f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:40:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Subject: [Ltru] Re: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark and Addison both bring up excellent points about the extlang mechanism and I need to spend some time thinking about it. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 10:41:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTfWR-0008O0-C0; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:41:11 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTfWP-0008NW-WD for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:41:10 -0400 Received: from mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.18]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTfWJ-0006Wa-AF for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:41:09 -0400 Received: (qmail 22849 messnum 5262865 invoked from network[194.125.174.59/ts09-059.dublin.indigo.ie]); 20 Mar 2007 14:40:59 -0000 Received: from ts09-059.dublin.indigo.ie (HELO ?194.125.174.59?) (194.125.174.59) by mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 22849) with SMTP; 20 Mar 2007 14:40:59 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) In-Reply-To: References: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2184C870-3D26-480D-9C14-8AB759AF8D59@egt.ie> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marion Gunn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:42:52 +0000 To: LTRU Working Group X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.728) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Exactly! It must be remembered that such linguistic illogicalities in =20= the Ethnologue in general can mostly only be accounted for by =20 assiduously studying the vagaries of American political/missionary/=20 overseas policies since SIL's foundation. mg On 20 Mar 2007, at 13:43, scr=EDobh Peter Constable: > ... > Answering that involves considering what are the reasons one person =20= > might have for grouping and what are the reasons that another might =20= > have for splitting... > The splitting in most or all cases we're dealing with (where =20 > macrolanguages are involved) comes from Ethnologue.... > Note that Ethnologue has not always followed every claim of a =20 > split. A familiar example is Serbo-Croatian vs. Bosnian, Croatian =20 > and Serbian, for which E only adopted the split only in the latest =20 > edition.... - - Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 11:42:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgTB-0000UT-SD; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:41:53 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgTA-0000UG-FV for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:41:52 -0400 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgT9-0001iy-3u for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:41:52 -0400 Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.114) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:41:49 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.114]) with mapi; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:41:49 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:41:47 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: extlang Thread-Index: Acdq+ooHwCtVgqpORN6FWUTSCTb/rwACoWzQ Message-ID: References: <005b01c76afa$7c111110$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <005b01c76afa$7c111110$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@adelphia.net] > I think we would do well to remember that macrolanguages are a concept > defined by ISO 639/RA, Slight correction: defined by ISO 639-3 (and it will also be defined in ISO= 639-4). > and we need to respect the concept as they have > defined it regardless of how we choose to reflect it in language tags. > As a WG we should not get involved in extending the concept... > There is such a diversity of interpretations of the macrolanguage > concept on this list alone that I am concerned this WG will be > perceived, both within and without, as responsible for (a) defining the > concept, (b) extending the definition, or (c) assigning macrolanguages. > None of this is our job. Indeed. ISO 639-3 provides the definition: an entry "with a scope represent= ing multiple, closely-related individual languages that are deemed in some = usage context to be a single language." John's description was basically the right one. We should not confuse the definition in ISO 639-3 with the JAC process of m= aking decisions regarding certain pre-existing entries in ISO 639-2, like w= hether "Lahnda" should be treated as a macrolanguage category. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 11:49:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgaI-0007ZG-Tn; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:49:14 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgaH-0007T6-0B for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:49:13 -0400 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgaE-0004Je-TS for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:49:12 -0400 Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.113) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:49:10 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.113]) with mapi; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:49:09 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:49:07 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: extlang Thread-Index: Acdq/c/N0ThpJVYoTcm9H/hEVvMIGQACI17g Message-ID: References: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703161617u85dbfe1r44ddc29fcfcf1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <45FB2C4E.9090303@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> <2184C870-3D26-480D-9C14-8AB759AF8D59@egt.ie> In-Reply-To: <2184C870-3D26-480D-9C14-8AB759AF8D59@egt.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I don't see how attacking SIL for ideological reasons has any relevance for= this list. The "linguistic illogicalit[y]" of "Serbo-Croatian" is by no me= ans unique to SIL or Americans. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Marion Gunn [mailto:mgunn@egt.ie] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:43 AM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Exactly! It must be remembered that such linguistic illogicalities in the Ethnologue in general can mostly only be accounted for by assiduously studying the vagaries of American political/missionary/ overseas policies since SIL's foundation. mg On 20 Mar 2007, at 13:43, scr=EDobh Peter Constable: > ... > Answering that involves considering what are the reasons one person > might have for grouping and what are the reasons that another might > have for splitting... > The splitting in most or all cases we're dealing with (where > macrolanguages are involved) comes from Ethnologue.... > Note that Ethnologue has not always followed every claim of a > split. A familiar example is Serbo-Croatian vs. Bosnian, Croatian > and Serbian, for which E only adopted the split only in the latest > edition.... - - Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 11:57:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgiU-00074H-M8; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:57:42 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgiT-00073Y-KH for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:57:41 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgiM-0000NF-QG for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:57:41 -0400 Received: from [10.72.72.188] (snvvpn1-10-72-72-c188.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.72.188]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2KFv00A080394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:57:02 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=L57gNQ6v1WSLXWb6n+y0GCfyEHkdk3bT0TEwE7LeASPJBwxVhV/YwX9QPNjGZFrJ Message-ID: <4600044C.1090907@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:57:00 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Osborn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang References: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> <41a006820703200313m491874d4i833fe13fb9108a9a@mail.gmail.com> <004501c76ae6$786e8600$694b9200$@net> In-Reply-To: <004501c76ae6$786e8600$694b9200$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com id l2KFv00A080394 X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: 'Frank Ellermann' , ltru@lists.ietf.org, 'GerardM' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Don Osborn wrote: > But what I have heard from some people re Arabic > localization, =E2=80=9Cno one=E2=80=9D writes =E2=80=9Cspoken Egyptian= Arabic=E2=80=9D > arz (in Egypt or > elsewhere). Maybe that=E2=80=99s an overstatement (I don=E2=80=99t kno= w), but it > reflects a certain reality. All languages seem to have this duality. The written form and the spoken=20 form of language are rarely the same (they are different modes, after=20 all). Plus, there are, for example, regional variations that don't rise=20 to the level of a separately identifiable "dialect" (from the language=20 tagging point of view). While some applications may need ultra-fine-grained identifiers,=20 many---even most---and especially on the Internet do not. Speakers (or,=20 maybe more especially, *readers*) of Arabic in Egypt are mostly=20 interested in the macro-language meaning of Arabic rather than=20 specialized dialects (of interest to philologists). Filtering by origin and other types of "regional" application is best=20 done using other kinds of metadata. Hence my concern that we'll introduce myriad ways of identifying (say)=20 Arabic in tags: "ar", "ar-arb", "ar-arz", "arb", "arz", etc. Users=20 should not need to know that all these options exist for a single=20 document, especially when the distinctions make no difference to the=20 document in question. > > In other contexts, one might seek an appropriate level of aggregation, > rather than the smallest accurate language description. Such as softwa= re > localization for instance (and hence locale). Yes, hence language tags such as "es-419" [Latin American Spanish,=20 essentially]. This is a somewhat artificial distinction useful in=20 certain contexts. But most language tags have some basis actual language=20 distinctions. Addison >=20 > So it seems that the context in combination with the specific realities= =20 > of a particular macrolanguage-sublanguage(s) relationship(s) determines= =20 > the choice. >=20 This is always true of language tag choice. But the peculiarities of=20 macro-language expose this rather more than some other choices one can=20 make in forming language tags. Addison --=20 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 12:27:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTh5X-0000qW-5w; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:21:31 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTh5U-0000os-Gw for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:21:28 -0400 Received: from smtp5.pp.htv.fi ([213.243.153.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTh1I-0003NZ-Tk for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:17:10 -0400 Received: from Raahattava (cs181004115.pp.htv.fi [82.181.4.115]) by smtp5.pp.htv.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098C55BC239; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:16:54 +0200 (EET) From: "Erkki I. Kolehmainen" To: "'Peter Constable'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" Subject: VS: [Ltru] Re: extlang Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:16:53 +0200 Message-ID: <001801c76b0b$2c198230$0200a8c0@Raahattava> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org +1 Erkki I. Kolehmainen Tilkankatu 12 A 3, FI-00300 Helsinki, Finland Puh. (09) 4368 2643, 0400 825 943; Tel. +358 9 4368 2643, +358 400 825 = 943 =20 -----Alkuper=E4inen viesti----- L=E4hett=E4j=E4: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com]=20 L=E4hetetty: 20. maaliskuuta 2007 17:49 Vastaanottaja: LTRU Working Group Aihe: RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang I don't see how attacking SIL for ideological reasons has any relevance = for this list. The "linguistic illogicalit[y]" of "Serbo-Croatian" is by no means unique to SIL or Americans. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Marion Gunn [mailto:mgunn@egt.ie] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:43 AM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Exactly! It must be remembered that such linguistic illogicalities in = the Ethnologue in general can mostly only be accounted for by assiduously studying the vagaries of American political/missionary/ overseas = policies since SIL's foundation. mg On 20 Mar 2007, at 13:43, scr=EDobh Peter Constable: > ... > Answering that involves considering what are the reasons one person=20 > might have for grouping and what are the reasons that another might=20 > have for splitting... The splitting in most or all cases we're dealing = > with (where macrolanguages are involved) comes from Ethnologue.... > Note that Ethnologue has not always followed every claim of a > split. A familiar example is Serbo-Croatian vs. Bosnian, Croatian > and Serbian, for which E only adopted the split only in the latest > edition.... - - Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 13:19:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HThzO-0000xp-SW; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:19:14 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HThzO-0000xk-9T for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:19:14 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HThz3-0007Jo-Qy for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:19:14 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HThz2-00044E-L4; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:18:52 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:18:52 -0400 To: Gerard Meijssen Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Message-ID: <20070320171852.GC2981@mercury.ccil.org> References: <005301c76af7$73d8c180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45FFEF73.3020506@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <45FFEF73.3020506@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Gerard Meijssen scripsit: > The Dutch expat communities in the US speak Dutch but it is markedly > different from the modern Dutch spoken in the Netherlands and Belgium. > Not only is the Dutch "old fashioned" it has also included some > Americanisms where you might find Anglicisms or a Dutch word in the > Netherlands. Indeed. Here are two samples (in different dialects of nl-US) recorded about a hundred years ago: [on immigrant Dutch, from the viewpoint of a nl-US speaker in New Jersey] Onze tal äz lex däuts en hoelliz äs Holläns; kwait dääfrent. [from an anonymous pamphlet published in Grand Rapids, Michigan] 't Had tamelijk ferm gesneeuwd de laatste twee dagen, zoodat de farmers toch nog een sleeride konden krijgen in het bijna vervlogen jaar. Vooral de young folks hunkerden naar een cutter-ride. Bijna allerwege in den omtrek van de Star Corners waren de cutters dan ook voor den dag gehaald en nagezien, want alles moest natuurlijk in running-order zijn. De dust moest er afgeveegd, hier en daar een bur wat aangetight, de kussens een weinig opgefixt, en de bells vooral nauwkeurig onderzocht. It may be said that essentially every language spoken by any substantial community of immigrants has developed a -US form; many of these are moribund or extinct, or have evolved into separate languages like Pennsylvania German. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan And now here I was, in a country where a right to say how the country should be governed was restricted to six persons in each thousand of its population. For the nine hundred and ninety-four to express dissatisfaction with the regnant system and propose to change it, would have made the whole six shudder as one man, it would have been so disloyal, so dishonorable, such putrid black treason. --Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 13:31:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiAq-0006Sw-Sp; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:31:04 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiAo-0006PL-Vc for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:31:03 -0400 Received: from smtp01.icann.org ([192.0.34.14]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiAS-000162-Op for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:31:02 -0400 Received: from terminus.local (c-24-6-153-109.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.153.109]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.icann.org (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2KHUAfl031752 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:30:14 -0800 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by terminus.local (PGP Universal service); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:30:06 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by terminus.local on Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:30:06 -0700 In-Reply-To: <005701c76af9$0dcbced0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> References: <005701c76af9$0dcbced0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 Message-Id: From: David Conrad Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: IANA, UTF-8 and the Language Subtag Registry Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:29:58 -0700 To: Doug Ewell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, On Mar 20, 2007, at 7:07 AM, Doug Ewell wrote: > Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> I just discussed the matter with Barbara Coleman (IANA), Roseman, not Coleman. >> at the IETF meeting. She said that IANA has no problem with UTF-8, >> providing that it is clearly specified in the RFC, with the list >> of allowed characters, if IANA is to check them (which is not the >> case for the Description fields, I believe, unlike subtags where >> IANA checks they are unique). > > Subtags are constrained to be Basic Latin (ASCII) letters and > digits, as stated in RFC 4646, and are unaffected by a change from > hex NCRs to UTF-8. > > Descriptions and comments could theoretically include almost any > ISO 10646 character, so providing a list would make little sense. > > Did Barbara say anything about converting the data from hex NCRs > *to* UTF-8? I doubt it as I suspect she (like me) has no idea what "NCRs" are. > That was the crux as far as I was concerned. We want the Registry > to be in UTF-8, but it will be delivered via an I-D that must use > hex NCRs. So you want IANA to do a post processing step to translate hex NCRs (whatever they are) into UTF-8? That's fine, as long as the IANA considerations section is clear about what we need to do for the translation. Rgds, -drc General Manager, IANA _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 13:50:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiTa-000624-IP; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:50:26 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiTZ-00061w-Dd for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:50:25 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiTX-0002Xj-SN for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:50:25 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiTE-0003VM-67 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:50:04 +0100 Received: from d253031.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:50:04 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253031.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:50:04 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:47:38 +0100 Organization: Lines: 25 Message-ID: <46001E3A.3D46@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <005701c76af9$0dcbced0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253031.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: IANA, UTF-8 and the Language Subtag Registry X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org David Conrad wrote: > no idea what "NCRs" are. Numerical Character Reference, in Web documents in the form 􃑖 for u+103456. It's what you have in the language subtag registry today. Some "misguided" folks (= roughly anybody but me here) want to switch the registry to UTF-8. You'd then get one last Internet-Draft in the old style (because I-Ds are US ASCII) with hex. NCRs, and "somehow" you'd have to translate this to UTF-8 (once). > So you want IANA to do a post processing step to translate > hex NCRs (whatever they are) into UTF-8? That's fine, as > long as the IANA considerations section is clear about what > we need to do for the translation. Deriving UTF-32 from the NCR-input would be very simple, and from there to UTF-8 you'd pick whatever you have. And most likely deriving UTF-16 will do if all NCRs stay below ￿ Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 13:54:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiXc-0000tM-TW; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:54:36 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiXb-0000sj-QP for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:54:35 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiWR-0004kR-30 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:53:26 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070320175321.VIJC2196.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:53:21 -0400 Message-ID: <00bf01c76b18$a620c0e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <005301c76af7$73d8c180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45FFEF73.3020506@gmail.com> <20070320171852.GC2981@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:53:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: Gerard Meijssen X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > It may be said that essentially every language spoken by any > substantial community of immigrants has developed a -US form; many of > these are moribund or extinct, or have evolved into separate languages > like Pennsylvania German. There are several different flavors of "es-US": Mexican-influenced, Puerto Rican-influenced, and Cuban-influenced would probably be the largest. And I don't know how one would go about tagging "Mexican" es-US differently from "Cuban" es-US. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 13:58:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTibH-0003Kw-75; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:58:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTibF-0003Ko-W0 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:58:21 -0400 Received: from outbound-sin.frontbridge.com ([207.46.51.80] helo=outbound4-sin-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTibB-0005oN-Qt for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:58:21 -0400 Received: from outbound4-sin.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound4-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1106AE823A; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:58:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail41-sin-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.252.3]) by outbound4-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E91280050; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:58:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail41-sin (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail41-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A0417982B3; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:58:13 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail41-sin (MessageSwitch) id 1174413491977225_15875; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:58:11 +0000 (UCT) Received: from USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.251.196]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail41-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8DFD38072; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:58:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5) with ESMTP id 2007032010580575-366677 ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:58:05 -0700 In-Reply-To: <00bf01c76b18$a620c0e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 CCH1 March 07, 2006 Message-ID: From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:56:22 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 03/20/2007 10:56:22, Serialize complete at 03/20/2007 10:56:22, Itemize by SMTP Server on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/20/2007 10:58:05 AM, Serialize by Router on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 03/20/2007 10:58:11 AM, Serialize complete at 03/20/2007 10:58:11 AM X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Gerard Meijssen X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1500587385==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1500587385== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0062B38C882572A4_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0062B38C882572A4_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Doug Ewell wrote: > John Cowan wrote: > > There are several different flavors of "es-US": Mexican-influenced, > Puerto Rican-influenced, and Cuban-influenced would probably be the > largest. And I don't know how one would go about tagging "Mexican" > es-US differently from "Cuban" es-US. Ah ... back to the same problem raised with my need for a tag for "Scottish English." :) Karen Broome --=_alternative 0062B38C882572A4_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Doug Ewell wrote:

> John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:

>
> There are several different flavors of "es-US": Mexican-influenced,
> Puerto Rican-influenced, and Cuban-influenced would probably be the
> largest.  And I don't know how one would go about tagging "Mexican"
> es-US differently from "Cuban" es-US.

Ah ... back to the same problem raised with my need for a tag for "Scottish English." :)

Karen Broome

 --=_alternative 0062B38C882572A4_=-- --===============1500587385== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1500587385==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 14:07:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTikC-0008Ch-BK; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:07:36 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTikA-0008Cc-Tp for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:07:34 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTik9-0007V6-Ig for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:07:34 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTik9-0007eM-0f; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:07:33 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:07:33 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Message-ID: <20070320180732.GE2981@mercury.ccil.org> References: <005301c76af7$73d8c180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45FFEF73.3020506@gmail.com> <20070320171852.GC2981@mercury.ccil.org> <00bf01c76b18$a620c0e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00bf01c76b18$a620c0e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > There are several different flavors of "es-US": Mexican-influenced, > Puerto Rican-influenced, and Cuban-influenced would probably be the > largest. And I don't know how one would go about tagging "Mexican" > es-US differently from "Cuban" es-US. Variant subtags, of course. Regional subtags are really just variant subtags that we use if and only if they are convenient, just because they happen to be predefined for us. -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Monday we watch-a Firefly's house, but he no come out. He wasn't home. Tuesday we go to the ball game, but he fool us. He no show up. Wednesday he go to the ball game, and we fool him. We no show up. Thursday was a double-header. Nobody show up. Friday it rained all day. There was no ball game, so we stayed home and we listened to it on-a the radio. --Chicolini _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 14:10:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTimt-0000JB-QQ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:10:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTims-0000J2-H6 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:10:22 -0400 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.237]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTimr-0007sI-BO for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:10:22 -0400 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id h31so1932876wxd for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:10:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=jyGrmWZuiAeEiu3HdDh1iaIAmcyL3cL23MNCCGvg/ROPjeRL9lvZl+kIdE0kwiFXCMBMJoic5d7Rj3M4hMgAUNi/IQwCZNj3g78KEyBwJuwL5jT9GofRHQdggXiyhywf8n5OBfx2UvXj+BdMPBj/3dKIC7lHfBzzy813IueUfhc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=Sob6cdqBoKzGAqCu027RNkhM/BW1vVjwJsCXoF6iLcI5+rIxQN37xqjIbhVnee7weYGq7i5x3f6baT3P36HmIncCpQhmS2nO3+LnMqo34CvHbyrU0MIERIgLGZXzzlq0avGmPSnbTjHSyiOdUUMiiKUNrqVJ8xRmYOidCu+m67A= Received: by 10.90.35.15 with SMTP id i15mr1192574agi.1174414220640; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703201110t2437a343y4141dc9eea42d424@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:10:20 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "LTRU Working Group" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ce0567fc38e79bfa X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Subject: [Ltru] progress X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0682925931==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0682925931== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_188326_16598046.1174414220527" ------=_Part_188326_16598046.1174414220527 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I thought I saw a message go by asking what our projected finish date is, but for the life of my I can't find the message. Can someone forward? -- Mark ------=_Part_188326_16598046.1174414220527 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I thought I saw a message go by asking what our projected finish date is, but for the life of my I can't find the message. Can someone forward?

--
Mark ------=_Part_188326_16598046.1174414220527-- --===============0682925931== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0682925931==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 14:15:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTirn-0002WY-Cv; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:15:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTirm-0002WF-0k for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:15:26 -0400 Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201] helo=kabissa.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTirk-0008U6-Nv for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:15:25 -0400 Received: (qmail 23588 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2007 11:53:10 -0500 Received: from pool-71-252-39-214.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (71.252.39.214) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 20 Mar 2007 11:53:10 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: "'Addison Phillips'" References: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> <41a006820703200313m491874d4i833fe13fb9108a9a@mail.gmail.com> <004501c76ae6$786e8600$694b9200$@net> <4600044C.1090907@yahoo-inc.com> In-Reply-To: <4600044C.1090907@yahoo-inc.com> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:53:05 -0400 Message-ID: <00a501c76b10$3bca4930$b35edb90$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcdrCHDQG04lqfFWRrOXqW/iuMy7owABeAiA Content-Language: en-us X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Cc: 'Frank Ellermann' , ltru@lists.ietf.org, 'GerardM' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thanks Addison. Quick comments in text... > -----Original Message----- > From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com] ... >=20 > Don Osborn wrote: >=20 > > But what I have heard from some people re Arabic > > localization, =E2=80=9Cno one=E2=80=9D writes =E2=80=9Cspoken = Egyptian Arabic=E2=80=9D > > arz (in Egypt or > > elsewhere). Maybe that=E2=80=99s an overstatement (I don=E2=80=99t = know), but it > > reflects a certain reality. >=20 ... >=20 > Hence my concern that we'll introduce myriad ways of identifying (say) > Arabic in tags: "ar", "ar-arb", "ar-arz", "arb", "arz", etc. Users > should not need to know that all these options exist for a single > document, especially when the distinctions make no difference to the > document in question. I understand the concern. Problem is that the cat is out of the bag. = Public education / outreach does not appear to have been a strong suit = for various internationalization / standards efforts, but might benefit = from more attention because of such issues. (Just an impression; I know = there are reasons for that). > > In other contexts, one might seek an appropriate level of > aggregation, > > rather than the smallest accurate language description. Such as > software > > localization for instance (and hence locale). >=20 > Yes, hence language tags such as "es-419" [Latin American Spanish, > essentially]. This is a somewhat artificial distinction useful in > certain contexts. But most language tags have some basis actual > language > distinctions. ... Thanks for reminding me of this (I believe John mentioned it a while = back). It might be an approach useful for a number of African languages = (Swahili and Hausa for starters, although each have country-level = locales already) and probably for such as African French or English. Don _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 14:48:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTjNU-0003G6-ID; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:48:12 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTjNU-0003G1-1J for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:48:12 -0400 Received: from mta15.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77] helo=mta15.adelphia.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTjNQ-0003fR-HU for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:48:11 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070320184805.UNFK2405.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:48:05 -0400 Message-ID: <00ef01c76b20$4be87700$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <005701c76af9$0dcbced0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: IANA, UTF-8 and the Language Subtag Registry Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:48:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org David Conrad wrote: >> Did Barbara say anything about converting the data from hex NCRs *to* >> UTF-8? > > I doubt it as I suspect she (like me) has no idea what "NCRs" are. Numeric Character References are sequences of hexadecimal (or decimal) numbers that stand for a real character, starting with the sequence &#x (or &# for decimal) and ending with a semicolon. á is a sequence that stands for Unicode character U+00E1, a lowercase "a" with acute accent (á). We use these currently in the Language Subtag Registry, to keep the file ASCII-only, but they're ugly and hard to understand. > So you want IANA to do a post processing step to translate hex NCRs > (whatever they are) into UTF-8? That's fine, as long as the IANA > considerations section is clear about what we need to do for the > translation. I will be sure to put the instructions in the I-D. Thanks for gettting back with us. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 14:54:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTjTs-0001Fi-L7; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:54:48 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTjTr-0001BL-CN for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:54:47 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTjTp-0007UW-M4 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:54:47 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070320185442.FQLV2272.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:54:42 +0000 Message-ID: <00f101c76b21$38ca18d0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <005301c76af7$73d8c180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45FFEF73.3020506@gmail.com> <20070320171852.GC2981@mercury.ccil.org> <00bf01c76b18$a620c0e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20070320180732.GE2981@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:54:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: >> And I don't know how one would go about tagging "Mexican" es-US >> differently from "Cuban" es-US. > > Variant subtags, of course. Well, not unless someone proposed the variants and they were registered. (Preferably not me, considering my 0% track record on subtag proposals.) And I'm not sure whether these would be best considered as the Mexican (Cuban) variant of es-US, or the United States variant of es-MX (es-CU). Actually I do know how to tag them, of course: private-use. > Regional subtags are really just variant subtags that we use if and > only if they are convenient, just because they happen to be predefined > for us. Correct. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 15:31:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTk3O-0001Xl-IQ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:31:30 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTk3N-0001XV-Hm for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:31:29 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTk2p-0007C4-4O for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:31:29 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070320193054.OSOY2195.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:30:54 -0400 Message-ID: <010501c76b26$46ed8910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:30:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Don Osborn wrote: >> Yes, hence language tags such as "es-419" [Latin American Spanish, >> essentially]. This is a somewhat artificial distinction useful in >> certain contexts. But most language tags have some basis actual >> language distinctions. > > Thanks for reminding me of this (I believe John mentioned it a while > back). It might be an approach useful for a number of African > languages (Swahili and Hausa for starters, although each have > country-level locales already) and probably for such as African French > or English. I brought this up once; John may have also. Here are the numeric region subtags that refer to Africa: 002 Africa 011 Western Africa 014 Eastern Africa 015 Northern Africa 017 Middle Africa 018 Southern Africa As a reminder, these are defined by the UN Statistics Division, not by ietf-languages. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 15:45:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTkH9-0001y4-AC; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:45:43 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTkH8-0001xM-Em for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:45:42 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTkH2-0001LI-NV for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:45:42 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTkH1-0005mn-Hb for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:45:36 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:45:35 -0400 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20070320194535.GH2981@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Subject: [Ltru] UTF-8 In Registry Considered Harmful, or Doom! Doom! I Cry Doom! X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I wish to oppose in the strongest terms the proposal to change the registration process in RFC 4646bis to publish the registry in UTF-8. This is *not* a matter of a one-time conversion from an ASCII I-D to a UTF-8 registry. It also affects every addition and update thereafter. The essential link in adding and modifying subtags is an email sent from the Language Subtag Reviewer to IANA requesting the change. Now either (1) that email will contain NCRs or (2) it will not. In case (1), a *continuing* capacity to convert the NCRs to UTF-8 on the part of IANA is assumed, something they seemingly do not have today. Are we confident that this will reliably be performed as part of registry updating? We are creating a whole new risk for ourselves. I foresee a time when the registry contains a mixture of UTF-8 and NCR representations. In case (2), the email contains the characters directly. Then either (2a) it is in UTF-8, or (2b) it is in some other encoding sufficient to represent the particular characters needed. In either subcase, we are taking risks: email is notoriously the most i18n-broken part of the Internet, and probably every one of us has received at least one broken email of this kind. In subcase (2b) we also add the risk that IANA (or their mail-processing tools) will fail to interpret the encoding, or will interpret it wrongly due to problems at the sender's end. We are, once again, creating a whole new risk for ourselves. I foresee a time when the registry contains a mixture of UTF-8 and non-UTF-8 representations. There is also the matter of the implicit contract which RFC 4646 created about the registry: that it would be in ASCII with NCRs. Are we *convinced* that we have *no choice* but to break this contract? The current system may not produce pretty results, but it *works*. Let's not break it gratuitously. Yours emphatically, -- Mos Eisley spaceport. You will never John Cowan see a more wretched hive of scum and cowan@ccil.org villainy -- unless you watch the http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Jerry Springer Show. --georgettesworld.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 15:47:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTkIp-0002KH-TZ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:47:27 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTkIo-0002KA-Nb for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:47:26 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTkIH-0001UL-RS for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:47:26 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTkIH-0005q8-52; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:46:53 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:46:53 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Message-ID: <20070320194653.GI2981@mercury.ccil.org> References: <010501c76b26$46ed8910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <010501c76b26$46ed8910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > 002 Africa > 011 Western Africa > 014 Eastern Africa > 015 Northern Africa > 017 Middle Africa > 018 Southern Africa A precise definition of these subtags in terms of included countries can be found at http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm#africa . -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan It's like if you meet an really old, really rich guy covered in liver spots and breathing with an oxygen tank, and you say, "I want to be rich, too, so I'm going to start walking with a cane and I'm going to act crotchety and I'm going to get liver disease. --Wil Shipley _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 16:25:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTktg-0003YU-VB; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:25:32 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTktf-0003X7-Ap for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:25:31 -0400 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.229]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTkt1-0007P1-JJ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:25:14 -0400 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 41so7212wry for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:24:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=kraVspyBOjg0Gsu6InWPwA53uLMvHTKtup9nrngIMK22e/Vq75HOpJJhUbKGvu/S9gXWd487vyPdPVaNwv1Mqn3w5kknMXNQRmaMpaCktsrLyaHmlXSjB5J/5DjuUXjhoT/v14OumPJyzRY3hyQYlChSBCp/yferztSqBzNVzU8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=BEbUXT4zdxGBvoQ90E2j7C8Lr63hpaLVkpm/NtgHZjw2d5q3ht076jb3zEjre0gKH8ihR/iZ7CFjaMutuwTYtAytIz5DubQKdZVcsoywXPrQ/tEwGlgFwkiOLfBQ4bJd11cd7lp+1mvOX59nHIbqrFnA67kTI5ce1N7OKU0u+WE= Received: by 10.90.56.14 with SMTP id e14mr1455687aga.1174422290317; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703201324y16954d3cg2c6caae3af83bd0d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:24:49 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang In-Reply-To: <45FF380E.5050402@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703190910u636658b1g56489b0d30d2333a@mail.gmail.com> <45FF380E.5050402@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 259aeb2b6ebaec38 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8aee5de87889eb0083b403ccc370f36c Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: 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ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:53:00 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTlKA-00025u-G0; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:52:54 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:52:54 -0400 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Message-ID: <20070320205254.GN2981@mercury.ccil.org> References: <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703190910u636658b1g56489b0d30d2333a@mail.gmail.com> <45FF380E.5050402@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703201324y16954d3cg2c6caae3af83bd0d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703201324y16954d3cg2c6caae3af83bd0d@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > Having arq and the other dozen or so languages on > http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=ara as primary language > tags is not a problem. The real problem is having either arb or ar-arb, > since we already have the tag "ar" which in practice means the same > thing, widely used in a great deal of software. Introducing either > arb or ar-arb essentially introduces a synonym for ar, and synonyms > just cause problems. 1) Introducing arb should not be lumped with introducing ar-arb, as a filtering (as distinct from lookup) request for ar will find content tagged ar-arb, but will not find content tagged arb. That alone is enough reason to forbid arb. 2) The argument that ar-arb and ar are in practice the same (an argument inherently limited to written, rather than recorded spoken, documents) proves too much. In practice, fr and fr-FR are the same, but nobody insists that fr-FR be forbidden, or that fr must not match fr-CA for filtering purposes. > Given the set of imperfect options, I think the best one is (a) > enhance the registry, as I suggested, and (b) either don't encode > arb, or encode and deprecate it (and do similar things for the other > macrolanguages that are in widespread use), and (c) not have extlang. Apart for the substantive objections to this procedure, it also leaves us open to a (perfectly legitimate) charge of cherry-picking. It is not up to us to decide which particular macrolanguage to handle how. [ak encompasses fat and twi; no encompasses nb and nn; sh encompasses bs, hr, and sr] I agree that these are annoyances, but I deny that they are anything more than annoyances. -- They do not preach John Cowan that their God will rouse them cowan@ccil.org A little before the nuts work loose. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan They do not teach that His Pity allows them --Rudyard Kipling, to drop their job when they damn-well choose. "The Sons of Martha" _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 17:10:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTlbU-0001tx-HN; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:10:48 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTlbS-0001tZ-E7 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:10:46 -0400 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.238]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTlbM-0008DX-1E for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:10:46 -0400 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 37so27567wra for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:10:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Q7AdF9uemGpgVegQVknFL7gcTn/3ErtM9zl5YZoKHannHpdKEjo85h4AQOnYTDhgYZ2J7GwkGX+h3YtJG5gkVEB4DZJyfnx0XOHZav9YEX237jqiCb9OakDi8F8/8Sjxu1EBHLxo2XdEy4RPDSUMXen2zeksZ/j8ZzuMm/Hk2Rw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=DtBel7y4SeeRshC3aAjH7o0AmUp603vdd5Um1I7LCMt7oJuOdBOZ2k1IydLLEtW97hDx/Fg+irAwylTBm5XSs0Iz2KYvGyfnL/c4xqOiVoxU6EEZYWS+LCki+5AaysUWFe7q0f7KydcWL3SEYwJApOv1mHBXc2HRZdBI9aPiffM= Received: by 10.90.115.4 with SMTP id n4mr1551994agc.1174425039764; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703201410hd6de8b4l4d15674018fad562@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:10:39 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] UTF-8 In Registry Considered Harmful, or Doom! Doom! I Cry Doom! In-Reply-To: <20070320194535.GH2981@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20070320194535.GH2981@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 00cf4e7ed82e2066 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1784830229==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1784830229== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_193903_15169605.1174425039229" ------=_Part_193903_15169605.1174425039229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have some qualms along the same line. I don't think we should expect IANA to do anything but paste some text into a position in the file. (Frankly, I think even that is too much -- it would be better if we just handed them a replacement file which we've reviewed, but people didn't like that idea.) So processing NCRs and extracting UTF-8 is too much. The only process for producing UTF-8 that seems tenable to me is where the text is sent as an email file attachment, where the attachment is in UTF-8. Mark On 3/20/07, John Cowan wrote: > > I wish to oppose in the strongest terms the proposal to change the > registration process in RFC 4646bis to publish the registry in UTF-8. > This is *not* a matter of a one-time conversion from an ASCII I-D to a > UTF-8 registry. It also affects every addition and update thereafter. > > The essential link in adding and modifying subtags is an email sent from > the Language Subtag Reviewer to IANA requesting the change. Now either > (1) that email will contain NCRs or (2) it will not. In case (1), a > *continuing* capacity to convert the NCRs to UTF-8 on the part of IANA is > assumed, something they seemingly do not have today. Are we confident > that this will reliably be performed as part of registry updating? > We are creating a whole new risk for ourselves. I foresee a time when > the registry contains a mixture of UTF-8 and NCR representations. > > In case (2), the email contains the characters directly. Then either > (2a) it is in UTF-8, or (2b) it is in some other encoding sufficient > to represent the particular characters needed. In either subcase, we > are taking risks: email is notoriously the most i18n-broken part of the > Internet, and probably every one of us has received at least one broken > email of this kind. In subcase (2b) we also add the risk that IANA (or > their mail-processing tools) will fail to interpret the encoding, or will > interpret it wrongly due to problems at the sender's end. We are, once > again, creating a whole new risk for ourselves. I foresee a time when > the registry contains a mixture of UTF-8 and non-UTF-8 representations. > > There is also the matter of the implicit contract which RFC 4646 > created about the registry: that it would be in ASCII with NCRs. > Are we *convinced* that we have *no choice* but to break this contract? > The current system may not produce pretty results, but it *works*. > Let's not break it gratuitously. > > Yours emphatically, > > -- > Mos Eisley spaceport. You will never John Cowan > see a more wretched hive of scum and cowan@ccil.org > villainy -- unless you watch the http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Jerry Springer Show. --georgettesworld.com > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_193903_15169605.1174425039229 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have some qualms along the same line. I don't think we should expect IANA to do anything but paste some text into a position in the file. (Frankly, I think even that is too much -- it would be better if we just handed them a replacement file which we've reviewed, but people didn't like that idea.) So processing NCRs and extracting UTF-8 is too much.

The only process for producing UTF-8 that seems tenable to me is where the text is sent as an email file attachment, where the attachment is in UTF-8.

Mark

On 3/20/07, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
I wish to oppose in the strongest terms the proposal to change the
registration process in RFC 4646bis to publish the registry in UTF-8.
This is *not* a matter of a one-time conversion from an ASCII I-D to a
UTF-8 registry.  It also affects every addition and update thereafter.

The essential link in adding and modifying subtags is an email sent from
the Language Subtag Reviewer to IANA requesting the change.  Now either
(1) that email will contain NCRs or (2) it will not.  In case (1), a
*continuing* capacity to convert the NCRs to UTF-8 on the part of IANA is
assumed, something they seemingly do not have today.  Are we confident
that this will reliably be performed as part of registry updating?
We are creating a whole new risk for ourselves.  I foresee a time when
the registry contains a mixture of UTF-8 and NCR representations.

In case (2), the email contains the characters directly.  Then either
(2a) it is in UTF-8, or (2b) it is in some other encoding sufficient
to represent the particular characters needed.  In either subcase, we
are taking risks: email is notoriously the most i18n-broken part of the
Internet, and probably every one of us has received at least one broken
email of this kind.  In subcase (2b) we also add the risk that IANA (or
their mail-processing tools) will fail to interpret the encoding, or will
interpret it wrongly due to problems at the sender's end.  We are, once
again, creating a whole new risk for ourselves.  I foresee a time when
the registry contains a mixture of UTF-8 and non-UTF-8 representations.

There is also the matter of the implicit contract which RFC 4646
created about the registry: that it would be in ASCII with NCRs.
Are we *convinced* that we have *no choice* but to break this contract?
The current system may not produce pretty results, but it *works*.
Let's not break it gratuitously.

Yours emphatically,

--
Mos Eisley spaceport.  You will never           John Cowan
see a more wretched hive of scum and            cowan@ccil.org
villainy -- unless you watch the                 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Jerry Springer Show.   --georgettesworld.com

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_193903_15169605.1174425039229-- --===============1784830229== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1784830229==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 20:23:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HToc5-0006So-VL; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:23:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HToc5-0006RA-Hi for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:23:37 -0400 Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201] helo=kabissa.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HToc0-0004jd-GU for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:23:37 -0400 Received: (qmail 24952 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2007 15:45:59 -0500 Received: from pool-71-252-39-214.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (71.252.39.214) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 20 Mar 2007 15:45:59 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <010501c76b26$46ed8910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <010501c76b26$46ed8910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:45:55 -0400 Message-ID: <015501c76b30$c1cd7be0$456873a0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcdrJkcmCtX4ohBgTiSxIxzMk0eWVwACF9Pw Content-Language: en-us X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Numerical region subtags (RE: extlang) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thanks Doug. Sorry you may have noted this too (forget with so many = details). So the Africa numerical region subtags have not been defined/adopted by = IETF-languages, but the Latin America numerical tag "419" has? (Hence = es-419?) Not that I'm planning on it, but if there were a need for a tag = for say East African Swahili or for African French, one would need to = make the proposal to IETF-languages? Just clarifying. TIA.. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@adelphia.net] > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:31 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Cc: dzo@bisharat.net > Subject: Re: extlang >=20 > Don Osborn wrote: >=20 > >> Yes, hence language tags such as "es-419" [Latin American Spanish, > >> essentially]. This is a somewhat artificial distinction useful in > >> certain contexts. But most language tags have some basis actual > >> language distinctions. > > > > Thanks for reminding me of this (I believe John mentioned it a while > > back). It might be an approach useful for a number of African > > languages (Swahili and Hausa for starters, although each have > > country-level locales already) and probably for such as African > French > > or English. >=20 > I brought this up once; John may have also. >=20 > Here are the numeric region subtags that refer to Africa: >=20 > 002 Africa > 011 Western Africa > 014 Eastern Africa > 015 Northern Africa > 017 Middle Africa > 018 Southern Africa >=20 > As a reminder, these are defined by the UN Statistics Division, not by > ietf-languages. >=20 > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 20 23:50:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTrq0-0003gM-SB; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:50:12 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTrpz-0003bZ-B5 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:50:11 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTrpv-0005Rj-HY for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:50:10 -0400 Received: from [10.72.66.43] (snvvpn-10-72-66-c43.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.66.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2L3nfT0041310 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:49:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=vXd0negHrysEJWvcIyoAWgDEPYJyre3/mzOXD7WvcfaI3x6klASLFnyw1u8XmTZT Message-ID: <4600AB52.60008@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:49:38 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Osborn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Numerical region subtags (RE: extlang) References: <010501c76b26$46ed8910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <015501c76b30$c1cd7be0$456873a0$@net> In-Reply-To: <015501c76b30$c1cd7be0$456873a0$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Cc: 'Doug Ewell' , 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org No, that's not correct. The UN M.49 codes (the numeric subtags) are allowed in language tags. The code "419" is one of these. What Doug is saying is: the codes and what they mean are defined by the UN, not by separate registration on the ietf-languages list. Just like the ISO 639-1 codes are defined by ISO 639, not by separate registration. Addison Don Osborn wrote: > Thanks Doug. Sorry you may have noted this too (forget with so many details). > > So the Africa numerical region subtags have not been defined/adopted by IETF-languages, but the Latin America numerical tag "419" has? (Hence es-419?) Not that I'm planning on it, but if there were a need for a tag for say East African Swahili or for African French, one would need to make the proposal to IETF-languages? > > Just clarifying. TIA.. > > Don > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@adelphia.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:31 PM >> To: LTRU Working Group >> Cc: dzo@bisharat.net >> Subject: Re: extlang >> >> Don Osborn wrote: >> >>>> Yes, hence language tags such as "es-419" [Latin American Spanish, >>>> essentially]. This is a somewhat artificial distinction useful in >>>> certain contexts. But most language tags have some basis actual >>>> language distinctions. >>> Thanks for reminding me of this (I believe John mentioned it a while >>> back). It might be an approach useful for a number of African >>> languages (Swahili and Hausa for starters, although each have >>> country-level locales already) and probably for such as African >> French >>> or English. >> I brought this up once; John may have also. >> >> Here are the numeric region subtags that refer to Africa: >> >> 002 Africa >> 011 Western Africa >> 014 Eastern Africa >> 015 Northern Africa >> 017 Middle Africa >> 018 Southern Africa >> >> As a reminder, these are defined by the UN Statistics Division, not by >> ietf-languages. >> >> -- >> Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 >> http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ >> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html >> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 02:03:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTtuO-0000w5-14; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:02:52 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTtuN-0000vv-A0 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:02:51 -0400 Received: from mta15.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77] helo=mta15.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTtuJ-0002iA-4h for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:02:51 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070321060244.MTQI2405.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:02:44 -0400 Message-ID: <014701c76b7e$8b268fc0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <010501c76b26$46ed8910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <015501c76b30$c1cd7be0$456873a0$@net> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:02:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Numerical region subtags (RE: extlang) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Don Osborn wrote: > So the Africa numerical region subtags have not been defined/adopted > by IETF-languages, but the Latin America numerical tag "419" has? > (Hence es-419?) Not that I'm planning on it, but if there were a need > for a tag for say East African Swahili or for African French, one > would need to make the proposal to IETF-languages? Addison replied: > What Doug is saying is: the codes and what they mean are defined by > the UN, not by separate registration on the ietf-languages list. I think there are two sources of misunderstanding here; that's one of them. The other stems from the presence of the tag "es-419" in the Registry. It was registered in the late RFC 3066 era when we knew the numeric region subtags were going to be available shortly. We had previously argued over a tag for "Latin American Spanish" and it became clear that we could register "es-419" almost for free -- it would meet the immediate need without adding another grandfathered tag (or variant subtag) to the mix. The ietf-languages group no longer registers whole tags, but rather subtags. At the same time, all of the UN numeric code elements that represent macro-geographical areas -- all of them -- are available using the generative model. So the presence of the redundant tag "es-419" in the Registry is a historical curiosity only; it is no more or less legitimate than "sw-014" or "fr-002", the two tags Don asked about. You can use those tags today if you like. My list of six numeric subtags dealing with Africa was copied from the Registry, not from the UN list. There are a few UN M.49 code elements that have not been carried over as region subtags, the ones that represent economic groupings. An example is 199, "Least developed countries." This group includes countries as diverse (geographically and linguistically) as Cape Verde, Bangladesh, and Vanuatu; such groupings would be pointless in language tags. (By comparison, Don has shown clearly what others have disputed, that there is a demand for macro-geographical subtags and that they can have meaning.) -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 02:30:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTuL6-0008FU-Oy; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:30:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTuL4-0008EL-VD for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:30:26 -0400 Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org ([208.145.81.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTuKu-0000OU-BL for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:30:26 -0400 Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l2L6U6w3001276 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:30:07 -0400 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 172.22.0.51 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Free Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! Received: from [203.150.136.170] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO [192.168.1.101]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.7) with ESMTPSA id 139948264; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:30:06 -0400 Message-ID: <4600D0E9.8060600@sil.org> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:30:01 +0700 From: Martin Hosken User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070306) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Status of RFC 4645bis References: <007501c747f3$c30db930$6801a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <007501c747f3$c30db930$6801a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Doug, > Since posting draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-02, the only comments I've > received about the draft or its proposed contents (other than the hex > NCRs, which are an RFC 4646bis issue) were from Debbie, who mentioned > some minor wording changes that I'm waiting for specifics on. > > Does this mean everyone loves the draft and feels it's about ready to > go? The ISO 639-3 folks have been updating their data files in > response to the issues I raised, and apparently the standard is ready > to be published, possibly by the end of this month, so I'd like to > prepare a draft-03 that would be ready for WG Last Call. Please send > any comments. OK I'll take a go (I couldn't find bis-02 only bis-01 so I'll talk about that). My main point is that there are lots of suppress scripts missing. Here are a few that spring out at me: ko -> Hang This is a biggy I would suspect. The following I'm not so sure about. bm -> Latn bo -> Tibt (?) br -> Latn ee -> Latn fy -> Latn gd -> Latn ha -> Latn ig -> Latn Hmm I'll stop there. I wonder if it might be helpful to put some kind of comment into the registry to say either that the decision has been made that this language has no suppress script (because more than one is used) or that no decision has been made as to whether this language has a suppress script or not until they've all been decided on. Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 07:54:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTzO9-00069r-Fd; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:53:57 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTzO7-000665-E1 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:53:55 -0400 Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201] helo=kabissa.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTzNu-00072B-G5 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:53:55 -0400 Received: (qmail 17428 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2007 06:53:37 -0500 Received: from pool-71-252-39-214.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (71.252.39.214) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 21 Mar 2007 06:53:37 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <010501c76b26$46ed8910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <015501c76b30$c1cd7be0$456873a0$@net> <014701c76b7e$8b268fc0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <014701c76b7e$8b268fc0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:53:33 -0400 Message-ID: <025501c76baf$8d7878c0$a8696a40$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcdrfotFl4mS3ZEzSvKvwc3HP3cg7gAKpkHA Content-Language: en-us X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] RE: Numerical region subtags (RE: extlang) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug, Addison, Thanks for the clarifications. I wasn't clear how outside = codes are taken in by ietf-languages, but since the set of regional = codes is already in the registry that's great. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@adelphia.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 2:03 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Cc: Don Osborn > Subject: Re: Numerical region subtags (RE: extlang) >=20 > Don Osborn wrote: >=20 > > So the Africa numerical region subtags have not been defined/adopted > > by IETF-languages, but the Latin America numerical tag "419" has? > > (Hence es-419?) Not that I'm planning on it, but if there were a = need > > for a tag for say East African Swahili or for African French, one > > would need to make the proposal to IETF-languages? >=20 > Addison replied: >=20 > > What Doug is saying is: the codes and what they mean are defined by > > the UN, not by separate registration on the ietf-languages list. >=20 > I think there are two sources of misunderstanding here; that's one of > them. The other stems from the presence of the tag "es-419" in the > Registry. It was registered in the late RFC 3066 era when we knew the > numeric region subtags were going to be available shortly. We had > previously argued over a tag for "Latin American Spanish" and it = became > clear that we could register "es-419" almost for free -- it would meet > the immediate need without adding another grandfathered tag (or = variant > subtag) to the mix. >=20 > The ietf-languages group no longer registers whole tags, but rather > subtags. At the same time, all of the UN numeric code elements that > represent macro-geographical areas -- all of them -- are available > using > the generative model. So the presence of the redundant tag "es-419" = in > the Registry is a historical curiosity only; it is no more or less > legitimate than "sw-014" or "fr-002", the two tags Don asked about. > You > can use those tags today if you like. >=20 > My list of six numeric subtags dealing with Africa was copied from the > Registry, not from the UN list. >=20 > There are a few UN M.49 code elements that have not been carried over > as > region subtags, the ones that represent economic groupings. An = example > is 199, "Least developed countries." This group includes countries as > diverse (geographically and linguistically) as Cape Verde, Bangladesh, > and Vanuatu; such groupings would be pointless in language tags. (By > comparison, Don has shown clearly what others have disputed, that = there > is a demand for macro-geographical subtags and that they can have > meaning.) >=20 > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 10:41:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU1zu-0004sI-MH; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:41:06 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU1zu-0004sC-8o for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:41:06 -0400 Received: from mta1.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.175]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU1zS-0003vQ-AY for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:41:06 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070321142444.ZDPF2272.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:24:44 +0000 Message-ID: <017901c76bc4$ac333e70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <007501c747f3$c30db930$6801a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4600D0E9.8060600@sil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Status of RFC 4645bis Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:24:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken wrote: > OK I'll take a go (I couldn't find bis-02 only bis-01 so I'll talk > about that). You're right, -01 is the version most recently submitted. > My main point is that there are lots of suppress scripts missing. There is a problem in general with Suppress-Script, but I contend it is a problem best discussed in the main process document (RFC 4646bis) and not in the document that delivers the Registry and outlines the rules for creating it (RFC 4645bis). The problem, as you state and as Frank Ellermann has stated roughly 4,646 times, is that by providing such a field, users will expect it to be correctly and authoritatively populated all of the time. This is something ietf-languages has (IMHO) neither the time nor the expertise to do. Instead, the field is present only for a sampling of languages for which an "overwhelmingly used" script could be determined with little or no controversy. Proposals to add others are welcome at ietf-languages. The gap between expectation and reality here is one of the reasons I opposed Suppress-Script in the first place. > Here are a few that spring out at me: > > ko -> Hang > > This is a biggy I would suspect. I thought so too, for a long time, and studied this a year ago to try to prove it. I read books, scanned newspapers, and talked to native Korean speakers. What I found was that, although Hangul is by far the most common script for writing Korean (maybe even "overwhelmingly"), there is noticeable use of hanja is certain contexts: scientific works, personal names, newpaper headlines (to resolve ambiguities), and a few others. There is also an important tradition that hanja is part of the Korean cultural experience, so that even if Hangul is overwhelmingly used, the "controversy" factor applies here. I went in firmly believing that this Suppress-Script should be added, and came away believing it should not, which I think is significant. > The following I'm not so sure about. > > bm -> Latn > ... See above. The correct place to propose these is ietf-languages. > Hmm I'll stop there. I wonder if it might be helpful to put some kind > of comment into the registry to say either that the decision has been > made that this language has no suppress script (because more than one > is used) or that no decision has been made as to whether this language > has a suppress script or not until they've all been decided on. Again, I believe the place for such a comment is in RFC 4646bis. There is no provision in the syntax of the Registry to add file-level comments, though it was suggested during LTRU 1.0. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 12:52:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU433-0000rN-Gc; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:52:29 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU432-0000rH-Fq for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:52:28 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU42r-0005TM-61 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:52:28 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HU42F-00012Z-4n for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:51:39 +0100 Received: from d247174.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.247.174]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:51:39 +0100 Received: from nobody by d247174.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:51:39 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:50:44 +0100 Organization: Lines: 35 Message-ID: <46016264.7AA5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <007501c747f3$c30db930$6801a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4600D0E9.8060600@sil.org> <017901c76bc4$ac333e70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d247174.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > There is a problem in general with Suppress-Script, but I contend > it is a problem best discussed in the main process document (RFC > 4646bis) and not in the document that delivers the Registry and > outlines the rules for creating it (RFC 4645bis). Depends, if we decide to do some bulk update (again) 4645bis should state how that was done. > the field is present only for a sampling of languages for which an > "overwhelmingly used" script could be determined with little or no > controversy. The "overhelmingly used" is its purpose for compatibility with older or naive applications. >> I wonder if it might be helpful to put some kind of comment into >> the registry to say either that the decision has been made that >> this language has no suppress script (because more than one is >> used) or that no decision has been made as to whether this language >> has a suppress script or not until they've all been decided on. > Again, I believe the place for such a comment is in RFC 4646bis. In theory we could assign a meaning to empty Suppress-Script fields. > There is no provision in the syntax of the Registry to add file-level > comments, though it was suggested during LTRU 1.0. I think Martin's idea was in the direction of per record comments, an "empty" Suppress-Script field could mean "intentionally void". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 13:25:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU4Yb-0007Nw-Bz; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:25:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU4XF-00042E-P9 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:23:41 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU4UX-0003vU-UD for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:20:56 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HU4Tz-00065h-PC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:20:19 +0100 Received: from d247174.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.247.174]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:20:19 +0100 Received: from nobody by d247174.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:20:19 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:18:05 +0100 Organization: Lines: 68 Message-ID: <460168CD.B2C@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20070320194535.GH2981@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20703201410hd6de8b4l4d15674018fad562@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d247174.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: UTF-8 In Registry Considered Harmful, or Doom! Doom! I Cry Doom! X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > processing NCRs and extracting UTF-8 is too much. We have a reliable solution in RFC 4646 (excl. the ABNF bug)... > The only process for producing UTF-8 that seems tenable > to me is where the text is sent as an email file attachment, > where the attachment is in UTF-8. ...but actually I'm sure that the subtag reviewer and IANA will find ways to send and receive UTF-8 working among them. >> The essential link in adding and modifying subtags is an >> email sent from the Language Subtag Reviewer to IANA >> requesting the change. >> Now either (1) that email will contain NCRs or (2) it >> will not. It won't. >> In case (2), the email contains the characters directly. >> Then either (2a) it is in UTF-8, or (2b) it is in some >> other encoding sufficient to represent the particular >> characters needed. It's UTF-8 (2a), nothing else. Installing a mail program getting this right is a duty for the subtag reviewer. In rare cases it might be ASCII if the template happens to be ASCII-only. It's the duty of IANA to upgrade their email program to something supporting B64 or QP encoded UTF-8 in an Internet Message. Probably they've already done this in the previous millennium. > email is notoriously the most i18n-broken part of the > Internet, and probably every one of us has received at > least one broken email of this kind. Yes, but there are only two critical installations, from the subtag reviewer to IANA. > In subcase (2b) we also add the risk that IANA (or their > mail-processing tools) will fail to interpret the encoding Yes, (2b) is unacceptable, excl. the special case US ASCII. > There is also the matter of the implicit contract which > RFC 4646 created about the registry: that it would be in > ASCII with NCRs. > Are we *convinced* that we have *no choice* but to break > this contract? I'm 100% sure that we do NOT need to break this contract, and that it will create unnecessary problems for some users of the registry. But subtag reviewer and IANA should IMO get their part right after testing their setup. > The current system may not produce pretty results, but it > *works*. Let's not break it gratuitously. +1 Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 13:50:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU4wf-0007JN-6H; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:49:57 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU4wd-0007Gp-UA for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:49:55 -0400 Received: from mail2.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU4wa-0002hE-2I for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:49:55 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.sharplabs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0761E13BB; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:49:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sharplabs.com Received: from mail2.sharplabs.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.sharplabs.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1fz2Trb1fSQp; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wabex1.enet.sharplabs.com (wabex1.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.224.8]) by mail2.sharplabs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2D61E1383; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wabex2.sharpamericas.com ([172.29.224.9]) by wabex1.enet.sharplabs.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:49:49 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] UTF-8 In Registry Considered Harmful, or Doom! Doom! I Cry Doom! Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:49:48 -0700 Message-ID: <811D382F92501D4EB5F748D2BF9EFBB92B9BFA@wabex2.sharpamericas.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703201410hd6de8b4l4d15674018fad562@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] UTF-8 In Registry Considered Harmful, or Doom! Doom! I Cry Doom! Thread-Index: AcdrNEBuZAe62C8+TLS5FVfjJERqnQAtMpFA From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "Mark Davis" , "John Cowan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2007 17:49:49.0382 (UTC) FILETIME=[522CA660:01C76BE1] X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7268a2980febc47a9fa732aba2b737ba Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0331087613==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0331087613== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76BE1.51B1B52C" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76BE1.51B1B52C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU52k-00029t-6R; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:56:14 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU52i-00029n-FN for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:56:12 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU52g-0005GP-0e for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:56:12 -0400 Received: from [10.72.66.43] (snvvpn-10-72-66-c43.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.66.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2LHtrl9000488 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:55:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MXv2/iEruZgCs3GhfWFsagzqobh3MPOHZ3uYe1e40CXdNa7gjA1ACUMaWtoShy18 Message-ID: <460171A9.7060207@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:55:53 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang References: <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703190910u636658b1g56489b0d30d2333a@mail.gmail.com> <45FF380E.5050402@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703201324y16954d3cg2c6caae3af83bd0d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703201324y16954d3cg2c6caae3af83bd0d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Having arq and the other dozen or so languages on > http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=ara > as primary > language tags is not a problem. Agreed. Provided tag assignment is clear. In actuality, I would guess that nearly everyone using Arabic will use 'ar', regardless of the availability of specialized primary language subtags. > The real problem is having either arb or > ar-arb, since we already have the tag "ar" which in practice means the > same thing, widely used in a great deal of software. Introducing > either > arb or ar-arb essentially introduces a synonym for ar, It would be confusing to exclude 'arb' but allow the enclosing 'ara' (better known as 'ar')---and all of the other enclosed languages. And other macro-languages don't have such neat/obvious relationships to an enclosed language. This would involve cherry-picking. I don't see why we would. I would tend to deprecate 'arb' or include a comment pointing out that 'ar' is a better choice. > ...and synonyms just cause problems. Yes. Emphatically. And not using extlang creates the synonym problem writ large. That is, 'zh' and 'cmn' can both be used to identify the same documents ('zh' can also be used on documents that 'cmn' wouldn't be used on). Your solution requires implementations and users to have this external knowledge about some subtags. Extlang makes the same information visible in the tag. > > Given the set of imperfect options, I think the best one is (a) enhance > the registry, as I suggested, and (b) either don't encode arb, or encode > and deprecate it (and do similar things for the other macrolanguages > that are in widespread use), and (c) not have extlang. Enhancing the registry isn't a big deal. As others have pointed out, extlang's "Prefix" is essentially the same information. For me to support not using extlang would require a very clear understanding of how to handle (tag) existing and future documents in affected languages. The general population will *not* understand what we've done and I'm afraid we'll have a mishmosh of incompatible tags. With extlangs, we might have different matching behaviors ("smart" vs. "stupid"), but tagging is relatively consistent (all Chinese documents begin with 'zh-', some have extlangs and some don't). You haven't explained this. I'm not at pains to make implementation easy if it results in the expense of making tag choice difficult. Implementing extlang is not a lot of fun (it would be better if there were only one permitted, not three): I've emitted a string of expletives when dealing with them. In my most recent code experiments, I've treated extlang (sequences) as part of the primary language and used a boolean to decide whether they are ignored (or not) in matching. This actually works reasonably well. For lookup I can have this behavior (in the default "don't ignore" mode): zh-yue-Hant-HK zh-yue-Hant zh-yue (root) But I can also do the more elaborate: zh-yue-Hant-HK zh-Hant-HK zh-yue-Hant zh-Hant zh-yue zh (root) This last pattern is actually more like "zh-yue||zh", but the longer range is always first, so the fallback works as shown. In filtering, using extended filtering in place of basic filtering achieves the same result. Users aren't forced to request both Cantonese and Chinese to get the same results they used to get from just requesting Chinese. That is, the range 'zh-Hant' produces Traditional Chinese, including Cantonese (zh-yue-Hant). If you want to be specific, include the extlang. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 14:20:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU5QZ-0006sR-Dg; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:20:51 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU5QY-0006q8-1F for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:20:50 -0400 Received: from mail2.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU5QW-0005Nq-IW for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:20:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.sharplabs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7681E1360; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:20:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sharplabs.com Received: from mail2.sharplabs.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.sharplabs.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 38iZ87bSwTme; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wabex1.enet.sharplabs.com (wabex1.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.224.8]) by mail2.sharplabs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393061E1349; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wabex2.sharpamericas.com ([172.29.224.9]) by wabex1.enet.sharplabs.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:20:40 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:20:39 -0700 Message-ID: <811D382F92501D4EB5F748D2BF9EFBB92B9BFB@wabex2.sharpamericas.com> In-Reply-To: <46016264.7AA5@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) Thread-Index: Acdr2WyB53knYscET6+lvEvyo2AaYgAFAs4w From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2007 18:20:40.0483 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1843F30:01C76BE5] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, The fundamental problem is NOT the "Suppress-Script" kludge. The fundamental problem is that Script tags were unwisely allowed into language tags at all - they will continue to make for surprising results to real users for the indefinite future at a thoroughly dubious gain in functionality. We've wrestled in the printing industry quite a bit with how to cope with script subtags - and the clear concensus is that we'll ban their use entirely in printing protocols. We have a perfectly good pre-existing separate metadata element for specifying script - print spoolers will simply silently delete script subtags from received language tags. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com -----Original Message----- From: Frank Ellermann [mailto:nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de] Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:51 AM To: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) Doug Ewell wrote: =20 > There is a problem in general with Suppress-Script, but I contend > it is a problem best discussed in the main process document (RFC > 4646bis) and not in the document that delivers the Registry and > outlines the rules for creating it (RFC 4645bis). Depends, if we decide to do some bulk update (again) 4645bis should state how that was done. > the field is present only for a sampling of languages for which an > "overwhelmingly used" script could be determined with little or no > controversy. The "overhelmingly used" is its purpose for compatibility with older or naive applications. =20 >> I wonder if it might be helpful to put some kind of comment into >> the registry to say either that the decision has been made that >> this language has no suppress script (because more than one is=20 >> used) or that no decision has been made as to whether this language >> has a suppress script or not until they've all been decided on. =20 > Again, I believe the place for such a comment is in RFC 4646bis. In theory we could assign a meaning to empty Suppress-Script fields. > There is no provision in the syntax of the Registry to add file-level > comments, though it was suggested during LTRU 1.0. I think Martin's idea was in the direction of per record comments, an "empty" Suppress-Script field could mean "intentionally void". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.16/729 - Release Date: = 3/21/2007 7:52 AM =20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 14:35:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU5ep-0003wH-BU; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:35:35 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU5eo-0003sQ-Cv for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:35:34 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU5ef-0000lC-2o for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:35:34 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HU5ed-0002i3-Jh; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:35:23 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:35:23 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Status of RFC 4645bis Message-ID: <20070321183523.GG28886@mercury.ccil.org> References: <007501c747f3$c30db930$6801a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4600D0E9.8060600@sil.org> <017901c76bc4$ac333e70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <017901c76bc4$ac333e70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > >Hmm I'll stop there. I wonder if it might be helpful to put some kind > >of comment into the registry to say either that the decision has been > >made that this language has no suppress script (because more than one > >is used) or that no decision has been made as to whether this language > >has a suppress script or not until they've all been decided on. > > Again, I believe the place for such a comment is in RFC 4646bis. There > is no provision in the syntax of the Registry to add file-level > comments, though it was suggested during LTRU 1.0. The comment can be an ordinary one at the subtag level. For example, since we know that az is multi-script, we could add a Comment: field to it saying "Comment: Multi-script language, no Suppress-Script possible." That makes it a matter for ietf-languages. -- My confusion is rapidly waxing John Cowan For XML Schema's too taxing: cowan@ccil.org I'd use DTDs http://www.ccil.org/~cowan If they had local trees -- I think I best switch to RELAX NG. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 14:40:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU5jX-0003qg-Jf; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:40:27 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU5jX-0003qa-3w for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:40:27 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU5jR-0002LO-4v for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:40:25 -0400 Received: from [10.72.66.43] (snvvpn-10-72-66-c43.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.66.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2LIdeYw090699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:39:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=k5T1GTAAjxFlWeB6c/giS8Rov0s5EHo3RasAkEybmhPVVh17sJH3WYyyULHETcxW Message-ID: <46017BEC.9080301@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:39:40 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Status of RFC 4645bis References: <007501c747f3$c30db930$6801a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4600D0E9.8060600@sil.org> <017901c76bc4$ac333e70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20070321183523.GG28886@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070321183523.GG28886@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > The comment can be an ordinary one at the subtag level. For example, > since we know that az is multi-script, we could add a Comment: field to > it saying "Comment: Multi-script language, no Suppress-Script possible." > That makes it a matter for ietf-languages. Ugh. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 15:00:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU62u-0002Di-8u; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:00:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU62t-00029G-1W for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:00:27 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU62r-0007bd-OG for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:00:27 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HU62g-00015I-JQ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:00:14 +0100 Received: from d247174.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.247.174]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:00:14 +0100 Received: from nobody by d247174.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:00:14 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:58:12 +0100 Organization: Lines: 21 Message-ID: <46018044.17DC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <46016264.7AA5@xyzzy.claranet.de> <811D382F92501D4EB5F748D2BF9EFBB92B9BFB@wabex2.sharpamericas.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d247174.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org McDonald, Ira wrote: > We've wrestled in the printing industry quite a bit with > how to cope with script subtags - and the clear concensus > is that we'll ban their use entirely in printing protocols. > We have a perfectly good pre-existing separate metadata > element for specifying script - print spoolers will simply > silently delete script subtags from received language tags. Probably that's what JohnK meant in the RFC 4646 "Last Call" when he asked about "profiles". Your application would be a "profile" where script subtags (and in theory maybe also all script related extensions or variants like "fonipa") are just not used (or officially forbidden). I've no problem with that approach, but I don't think that we'll need prose in 4646bis how to formulate or even register such profiles, "4646 tags without script subtags" is clear. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 17:21:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU8FG-00062T-IW; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:21:22 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU8FE-00062N-W3 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:21:20 -0400 Received: from smtp01.icann.org ([192.0.34.14]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU8FD-0002bQ-Fv for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:21:20 -0400 Received: from terminus.local (c-24-6-153-109.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.153.109]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.icann.org (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2LLKmqK007438 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:20:49 -0800 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by terminus.local (PGP Universal service); Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:20:49 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by terminus.local on Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:20:49 -0700 In-Reply-To: <811D382F92501D4EB5F748D2BF9EFBB92B9BFA@wabex2.sharpamericas.com> References: <811D382F92501D4EB5F748D2BF9EFBB92B9BFA@wabex2.sharpamericas.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: From: David Conrad Subject: Re: [Ltru] UTF-8 In Registry Considered Harmful, or Doom! Doom! I Cry Doom! Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:20:47 -0700 To: "McDonald, Ira" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 22bbb45ef41b733eb2d03ee71ece8243 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Ah ha! So this was a trick question... :-) We're discussing this with the IESG folks right now. It isn't clear to me what the consensus of the working group is on this issue, so I'll retract previous statements for the time being. This isn't to say we've made a decision one way or the other, of course. Rather we simply don't have sufficient information. Rgds, -drc On Mar 21, 2007, at 10:49 AM, McDonald, Ira wrote: > Hi, > > My two cents - John Cowan's right - this (native UTF-8 registry) > is a dangerous road that's several years ahead of a reliable > Internet email infrastructure - even UTF-8 _attachments_ force > the sender and ALL commenters to be able to correctly display > and print UTF-8 on their machines - not happening anytime soon! > > Please consider sticking with ugly but SAFE use of NCRs. > > After all, we're talking about edge conditions here - not the whole > body of the registry. > > Cheers, > - Ira > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 4:11 PM > To: John Cowan > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] UTF-8 In Registry Considered Harmful,or Doom! > Doom! I Cry Doom! > > I have some qualms along the same line. I don't think we should > expect IANA to do anything but paste some text into a position in > the file. (Frankly, I think even that is too much -- it would be > better if we just handed them a replacement file which we've > reviewed, but people didn't like that idea.) So processing NCRs and > extracting UTF-8 is too much. > > The only process for producing UTF-8 that seems tenable to me is > where the text is sent as an email file attachment, where the > attachment is in UTF-8. > > Mark > > On 3/20/07, John Cowan wrote: I wish to oppose in > the strongest terms the proposal to change the > registration process in RFC 4646bis to publish the registry in UTF-8. > This is *not* a matter of a one-time conversion from an ASCII I-D to a > UTF-8 registry. It also affects every addition and update thereafter. > > The essential link in adding and modifying subtags is an email sent > from > the Language Subtag Reviewer to IANA requesting the change. Now > either > (1) that email will contain NCRs or (2) it will not. In case (1), a > *continuing* capacity to convert the NCRs to UTF-8 on the part of > IANA is > assumed, something they seemingly do not have today. Are we confident > that this will reliably be performed as part of registry updating? > We are creating a whole new risk for ourselves. I foresee a time when > the registry contains a mixture of UTF-8 and NCR representations. > > In case (2), the email contains the characters directly. Then either > (2a) it is in UTF-8, or (2b) it is in some other encoding sufficient > to represent the particular characters needed. In either subcase, we > are taking risks: email is notoriously the most i18n-broken part of > the > Internet, and probably every one of us has received at least one > broken > email of this kind. In subcase (2b) we also add the risk that IANA > (or > their mail-processing tools) will fail to interpret the encoding, > or will > interpret it wrongly due to problems at the sender's end. We are, > once > again, creating a whole new risk for ourselves. I foresee a time when > the registry contains a mixture of UTF-8 and non-UTF-8 > representations. > > There is also the matter of the implicit contract which RFC 4646 > created about the registry: that it would be in ASCII with NCRs. > Are we *convinced* that we have *no choice* but to break this > contract? > The current system may not produce pretty results, but it *works*. > Let's not break it gratuitously. > > Yours emphatically, > > -- > Mos Eisley spaceport. You will never John Cowan > see a more wretched hive of scum and cowan@ccil.org > villainy -- unless you watch the http:// > www.ccil.org/~cowan > Jerry Springer Show. --georgettesworld.com > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > -- > Mark > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.16/729 - Release Date: > 3/21/2007 7:52 AM > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 18:08:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU8y6-0000EK-Nv; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:07:43 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU8y5-0000EF-Gp for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:07:41 -0400 Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.61]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU8y4-0006Kz-5C for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:07:41 -0400 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=EaBdFTzzoQsJAdLMa6n6wHADFpncesidekAMBLE7btSvIKKAJbmOFHLDAeYtQg27; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.165.7.82] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1HU8y2-0006Xh-L3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:07:39 -0400 Message-ID: <000401c76c0d$d3e4a460$6601a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <811D382F92501D4EB5F748D2BF9EFBB92B9BFB@wabex2.sharpamericas.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:08:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8882c120543388a5fd7ae8f4da0be7abf2a611319fd35fb5ccc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.165.7.82 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "McDonald, Ira" > To: "Frank Ellermann" ; > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:20 AM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) ... > We've wrestled in the printing industry quite a bit with > how to cope with script subtags - and the clear concensus > is that we'll ban their use entirely in printing protocols. > We have a perfectly good pre-existing separate metadata > element for specifying script - print spoolers will simply > silently delete script subtags from received language tags. ... Printing wasn't ever one of the use cases for script subtags, as far as I can recall. Script subtags are much more relevant for searching / filtering. I'm actually a bit surprised that a print spooler would even need the script in metadata. After all, the code points are distinct anyway. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 18:53:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU9ge-0004HX-5n; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:53:44 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU9gc-0004GN-Gk for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:53:42 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HU9gZ-0003IB-70 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:53:42 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HU9gO-0004I0-Sa; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:53:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:53:28 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) Message-ID: <20070321225328.GJ28886@mercury.ccil.org> References: <811D382F92501D4EB5F748D2BF9EFBB92B9BFB@wabex2.sharpamericas.com> <000401c76c0d$d3e4a460$6601a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000401c76c0d$d3e4a460$6601a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > Printing wasn't ever one of the use cases for script subtags, as far > as I can recall. Script subtags are much more relevant for searching / > filtering. I'm actually a bit surprised that a print spooler would even > need the script in metadata. After all, the code points are distinct > anyway. FWIU, it's a matter of making sure that the printer has the correct fonts without having to read through the entire document. -- Why are well-meaning Westerners so concerned that John Cowan the opening of a Colonel Sanders in Beijing means cowan@ccil.org the end of Chinese culture? [...] We have had http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Chinese restaurants in America for over a century, and it hasn't made us Chinese. On the contrary, we obliged the Chinese to invent chop suey. --Marshall Sahlins _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 22:50:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUDNR-0005uD-Jf; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:50:09 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUDNP-0005sr-Gm for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:50:07 -0400 Received: from james.jaars.org ([208.145.81.51] helo=smtp1.wsfo.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUDN3-0002Yv-Sp for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:50:07 -0400 Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l2M2nj45022994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:49:45 -0400 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 172.22.0.51 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Free Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! Received: from [203.154.83.32] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO [192.168.1.101]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.7) with ESMTPSA id 140049341; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:49:44 -0400 Message-ID: <4601EEC5.9030303@sil.org> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:49:41 +0700 From: Martin Hosken User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070306) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Suppress-Script References: <007501c747f3$c30db930$6801a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4600D0E9.8060600@sil.org> <017901c76bc4$ac333e70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <46016264.7AA5@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <46016264.7AA5@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Frank, For some inexplicable reason, I didn't receive Doug's response that you are responding to :( > I think Martin's idea was in the direction of per record comments, > an "empty" Suppress-Script field could mean "intentionally void". > Yes, I was thinking of some per record information however it may be encoded. Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 02:15:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUGa3-0007i4-TW; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 02:15:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUGa2-0007hI-A2 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 02:15:22 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUGVz-0007fZ-Jd for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 02:11:21 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070322061108.GDJE2272.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:11:08 +0000 Message-ID: <01d401c76c48$e1e7f9f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:11:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> There is a problem in general with Suppress-Script, but I contend it >> is a problem best discussed in the main process document (RFC >> 4646bis) and not in the document that delivers the Registry and >> outlines the rules for creating it (RFC 4645bis). > > Depends, if we decide to do some bulk update (again) 4645bis should > state how that was done. I don't recall any consensus to add Suppress-Scripts in volume as part of LTRU 2.0. RFC 4645bis is a bulk update, of course, although its nature is more in question now than ever before. > The "overhelmingly used" is its purpose for compatibility with older > or naive applications. A Suppress-Script of "Hang" for "ko" would mean that written Korean, script unspecified, can be safely assumed to be in Hangul. Apparently that is not a safe assumption to make. > In theory we could assign a meaning to empty Suppress-Script fields. > > I think Martin's idea was in the direction of per record comments, an > "empty" Suppress-Script field could mean "intentionally void". I think differentiating between "no Suppress-Script field" and "a Suppress-Script field with an empty value" would be very tricky business, and I would not support it. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 02:25:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUGjv-0007HV-5t; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 02:25:35 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUGju-0007HH-6T for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 02:25:34 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUGhi-0003CK-Ib for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 02:23:24 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070322062317.OVDX2196.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 02:23:17 -0400 Message-ID: <01da01c76c4a$94714760$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:23:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Subject: [Ltru] Re: UTF-8 In Registry Considered Harmful, or Doom! Doom! I Cry Doom! X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org David Conrad wrote: > Ah ha! So this was a trick question... :-) Not on my part, anyway. The sudden groundswell of opposition to converting the Registry to UTF-8 took me completely by surprise. I knew Addison and some others supported it, and Frank opposed it, and many were silent about it. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 05:00:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJ95-0007a2-EF; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:59:43 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJ93-0007Zs-VQ for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:59:41 -0400 Received: from numenor.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.58]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJ92-0004FE-Jp for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:59:41 -0400 Received: from hamtaro.qualcomm.com (hamtaro.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.157]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id l2M8xdfW021374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Mar 2007 01:59:39 -0700 Received: from [130.129.20.116] (vpn-10-50-16-10.qualcomm.com [10.50.16.10]) by hamtaro.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/1.0) with ESMTP id l2M8xWwK018415; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 01:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:59:30 +0100 To: ltru@ietf.org, Chris.Newman@sun.com From: Ted Hardie Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] New Area Advisor X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Greetings, I would like to introduce Chris Newman to the working group. Chris is taking over as Applictions Area Director, and he will be the new Area Advisor for this group. I will be available to Chris as a resource as we go forward, but from this point he is the point of contact for any AD questions or actions. Please accept my thanks for all the hard work that the group has already done and my best wishes for your efforts going forward, best regards, Ted Hardie _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 05:32:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJeW-0000NM-MC; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:32:12 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJeV-0000LM-AW for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:32:11 -0400 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJeS-0002zM-GK for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:32:11 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2M9W2ZP011658 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:32:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 5311_30e107ce_d858_11db_894c_0014221f2a2d; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:32:01 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:35017) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:30:59 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070316164457.0a159150@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:12:43 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Fw: errata for RFC 4646 Appendix B In-Reply-To: <002101c7664a$983a7750$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> References: <002101c7664a$983a7750$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 00:08 07/03/15, Doug Ewell wrote: >Nicolas Krebs wrote: > >>> Appendix B says: >>> >>> sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian >>> >>> It should say: >>> >>> sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian) >> I suggest to fix this in official errata of rfc 4646, and in rfc 4646bis. > >Is this appropriate for a missing parenthesis in a text description of a non-normative example? I very much agree with your sentiment, re. the errata page (of course not re. our new draft, that definitely should be used to fix typos). >I agree that it's an error, and my experience with RFC errata is severely limited, but I tend to think of them as being more suited to errors that might affect implementations or otherwise lead to genuine misunderstanding. The current state is that it's already in the ERRATA, but marked as UNVERIFIED. We may as well tell the RFC Editor that the can make that official. Telling them that this is indeed correct, but not worth to put on the page doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If I don't receive any objections in the next couple days, I'll write to tell the RFC editor that this ERRATUM is official (or whatever they call the respective state). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 05:32:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJeW-0000NM-MC; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:32:12 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJeV-0000LM-AW for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:32:11 -0400 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJeS-0002zM-GK for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:32:11 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2M9W2ZP011658 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:32:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 5311_30e107ce_d858_11db_894c_0014221f2a2d; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:32:01 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:35017) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:30:59 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070316164457.0a159150@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:12:43 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Fw: errata for RFC 4646 Appendix B In-Reply-To: <002101c7664a$983a7750$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> References: <002101c7664a$983a7750$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 00:08 07/03/15, Doug Ewell wrote: >Nicolas Krebs wrote: > >>> Appendix B says: >>> >>> sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian >>> >>> It should say: >>> >>> sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian) >> I suggest to fix this in official errata of rfc 4646, and in rfc 4646bis. > >Is this appropriate for a missing parenthesis in a text description of a non-normative example? I very much agree with your sentiment, re. the errata page (of course not re. our new draft, that definitely should be used to fix typos). >I agree that it's an error, and my experience with RFC errata is severely limited, but I tend to think of them as being more suited to errors that might affect implementations or otherwise lead to genuine misunderstanding. The current state is that it's already in the ERRATA, but marked as UNVERIFIED. We may as well tell the RFC Editor that the can make that official. Telling them that this is indeed correct, but not worth to put on the page doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If I don't receive any objections in the next couple days, I'll write to tell the RFC editor that this ERRATUM is official (or whatever they call the respective state). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 05:32:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJeW-0000NI-IV; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:32:12 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJeV-0000LO-BB for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:32:11 -0400 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJeS-0002xk-GK for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:32:11 -0400 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2M9W0xq011649 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:32:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 1724_2f6ab098_d858_11db_89bf_0014221fa3c9; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:31:59 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:35017) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:30:56 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070320120935.055b7190@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:54:11 +0900 To: Gerard Meijssen , Mark Davis From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) In-Reply-To: <45FD2D84.5050007@gmail.com> References: <30b660a20703171149i47d09580w126aeb3f9feb8fdf@mail.gmail.com> <45FD2D84.5050007@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 21:16 07/03/18, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >Hoi, >Modern computers are quite capable of this "non-trivial" lookup that you refer to. On the level of implementation in a single single program, this is definitely true. But what we have to consider is world-wide development (to some extent, every Web browser and server, and lots of other software). At this level, things look absolutely, totally, different. Things that look extremely simple. >The reason why we should allow for both zh-cmn and cmn is because it is much easier to explain to *people*. I utterly disagree that having both options is of little benefit. It helps people; it helps people understand the code. We give meaning to these codes and it is extremely hard to explain how these codes work. For people it makes a hell of a difference. You can explain that zh is old and Mandarin can be used as zh-cmn and cmn as a consequence. People will opt for cmn if they have the option and to it right, they will still opt for cmn and you would call them wrong. I think that any way you slice it, some people will follow, and others won't. And some people will understand things one way ("this is old and this is new") where others will understand things another way ("of course Mandarin is Chinese, so zh-cmn makes perfect sense"). To predict which one will work better is extremely difficult. The important thing for us, when creating a standard, is to try hard to create only as many promises as we think can reasonably be kept. To use the above example, even if a lot of people may just choose 'cmn', it is way better for us to say that they should use 'zh-cmn' to make sure things match with 'zh' than to define that 'zh-cmn' and 'cmn', or 'zh-cmn' and 'cmn', match when we don't have the confidence that these matches will actually work in wide practice. >We get a much better adoption by being understood. It is more important than having computers to know that two codes are equivalent. Computers are good at that !! On a small level (one human, one computer), yes. In the big picture, things may look quite a bit different. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 13:22:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUQzf-0008QW-Ii; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:22:31 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUQzd-0008QM-BH for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:22:29 -0400 Received: from mail2.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.51]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUQzT-0001n8-JQ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:22:29 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.sharplabs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAF61E13D5; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:22:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sharplabs.com Received: from mail2.sharplabs.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.sharplabs.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id si3afWJVCCOE; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wabex1.enet.sharplabs.com (wabex1.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.224.8]) by mail2.sharplabs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990E71E1383; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wabex2.sharpamericas.com ([172.29.224.9]) by wabex1.enet.sharplabs.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:22:11 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:22:10 -0700 Message-ID: <811D382F92501D4EB5F748D2BF9EFBB92B9BFE@wabex2.sharpamericas.com> In-Reply-To: <20070321225328.GJ28886@mercury.ccil.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) Thread-Index: AcdsC+qyEn4ZCxT1TqSRYbxvHX4BrAAoegkA From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "John Cowan" , "Randy Presuhn" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2007 17:22:11.0681 (UTC) FILETIME=[A0854D10:01C76CA6] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, John's got it just right - print spoolers and print devices examine required resources for print jobs at the time of job submission - NOT just at the time of job execution, which may be minutes or hours later. Jobs are rejected for resource conflicts (in this case a font that doesn't cover the necessary characters) at time of job submission, as a best practice. Metadata about required scripts (note the plural please) is important for user satisfaction when using shared network printers - which are often considerably more expensive than high-end UNIX workstations. =20 Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 5:53 PM To: Randy Presuhn Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Suppress-Script (was: Re: Status of RFC 4645bis) Randy Presuhn scripsit: > Printing wasn't ever one of the use cases for script subtags, as far > as I can recall. Script subtags are much more relevant for searching = /=20 > filtering. I'm actually a bit surprised that a print spooler would = even > need the script in metadata. After all, the code points are distinct > anyway. FWIU, it's a matter of making sure that the printer has the correct = fonts without having to read through the entire document. --=20 Why are well-meaning Westerners so concerned that John Cowan the opening of a Colonel Sanders in Beijing means cowan@ccil.org the end of Chinese culture? [...] We have had = http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Chinese restaurants in America for over a century, and it hasn't made us Chinese. On the contrary, we obliged the Chinese to invent chop suey. --Marshall = Sahlins _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/730 - Release Date: = 3/22/2007 7:44 AM =20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 15:50:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTIU-0007vY-Lv; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:50:06 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTIT-0007vP-Hp for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:50:05 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTIS-000085-8a for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:50:05 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTIA-0001MZ-3K for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:49:46 +0100 Received: from d252255.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.255]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:49:46 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252255.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:49:46 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:47:30 +0100 Organization: Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4602DD52.1205@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <002101c7664a$983a7750$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20070316164457.0a159150@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252255.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fw: errata for RFC 4646 Appendix B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > I'll write to tell the RFC editor that this ERRATUM is official > (or whatever they call the respective state). I thought that only RFC authors can "verify" errata (?) In the case of this obvious typo I've no idea why the RFC editor added an "UNVERIFIED" note - maybe they fear that "somebody" could try to start another avalanche of appeals. If you try to verify the typo anyway please submit also the real ABNF erratum, the RFC says: | ASCCHAR = %x21-25 / %x27-7E / UNICHAR ; Note: AMPERSAND is %x26 | UNICHAR = "&#x" 2*6HEXDIG ";" But actually this should be: | ASCCHAR = %x21-25 / %x27-7E / UNICHAR ; Note: AMPERSAND is %x26 | UNICHAR = %x26.23.78 2*6HEXDIG ";" ; Lower case "x" in "&#x" Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 16:05:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTXb-0002GI-Tb; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:05:43 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTXa-0002DR-PA for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:05:42 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTXU-0003Lf-AJ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:05:42 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTX6-0005d7-0I for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:05:12 +0100 Received: from d252255.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.255]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:05:11 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252255.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:05:11 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:03:19 +0100 Organization: Lines: 13 Message-ID: <4602E107.6313@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <01d401c76c48$e1e7f9f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252255.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > I think differentiating between "no Suppress-Script field" and "a > Suppress-Script field with an empty value" would be very tricky > business, and I would not support it. As far as I'm concerned an informal file stating which languages have intentionally no Suppress-Script would also do. It should be better than only adding "n/a" manually to quick & dirty overviews like , though. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 16:27:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTsr-0005S6-3N; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:27:41 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTsq-0005Rx-H8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:27:40 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTsd-0000HI-BK for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:27:40 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HUTsF-0001WW-AW for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:27:03 +0100 Received: from d252255.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.255]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:27:03 +0100 Received: from nobody by d252255.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:27:03 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:24:14 +0100 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: <4602E5EE.5877@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <007501c747f3$c30db930$6801a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4600D0E9.8060600@sil.org> <017901c76bc4$ac333e70$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <46016264.7AA5@xyzzy.claranet.de> <4601EEC5.9030303@sil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252255.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] List archives (was: Suppress-Script) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken wrote: > I didn't receive Doug's response that you are responding to :( With all those weird spam filters you never know... Some pages with URLs of the two LTRU list archives I'm aware of: (HTTP, NNTP, search, ...). (WG charter, drafts, list, ...) Frank P.S. to Stephane, maybe add GMaNe to _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 23 02:35:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUdMZ-0001X0-6k; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 02:34:59 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUdMY-0001Wv-On for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 02:34:58 -0400 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUdMV-0007vg-Ux for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 02:34:58 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2N6Yq0F013630 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:34:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 6d45_9b259540_d908_11db_986c_0014221f2a2d; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:34:52 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:41159) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:33:49 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070322183501.0a15c6d0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:43:18 +0900 To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: Havard Hjulstad , Chris Newman Subject: [Ltru] WG milestones X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear LTRU WG Members, Our WG currently has the following milestones at http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html: Jan 2007 Submit registry procedure update draft for IETF Last Call Jan 2007 Submit registry data update draft for IETF Last Call As already noticed, we won't meet these :-). The best estimate we currently have for the progress on ISO-639-3 cleanup work is that it may take one to two more months. Based on this and the fact that March is fairly progressed already, I'm proposing that the WG request new dates of June 2007 for the above two milestones. Any input on this issue is appreciated. If I don't get any input, I'll make a request with the above dates to our Area Directors within a few days. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 23 16:00:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUpur-0003Wt-Ol; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:59:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUpup-0003Wm-Ad for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:59:11 -0400 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.231]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUpul-0002vC-UX for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:59:11 -0400 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 41so1205733wry for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:59:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=HvcCQRq/U0tuURceIqWN4bnrH6Z/28wgP0wIuVrzlHIZw77hasVgGx1zMz6FUlnKh8eo6LRtvT7XHe83NCJhbtLWohvHlYRaJjnyseMC8Vsu0LQsbEOxKKG/zwZLc3L3oCACAvF8Yo9CGHr5b8cukK0Pwyzq8ylTmyXin47kfJY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=FXNxwDNbB0N0Sjk7ypvX87X5vbYsMtEIzKK4PDkZ6eWRaIJ2M1OEWWzdSKMGCsKcvNTS9qiuxWulzC71mIM//gIUoZhcTn7H0kmZcZhcnOR65Ro+Tlrc8ZJFxAG6Wco6Y+uwIdTkwQT/phFYiJc/Lmc1p3YNnn8F89NZBDG7QUs= Received: by 10.114.137.2 with SMTP id k2mr1381039wad.1174679946866; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703231259t2f4a67a1v8bbfb8e3ac9600c4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:59:06 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Martin Duerst" Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG milestones In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070322183501.0a15c6d0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070322183501.0a15c6d0@localhost> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7c48e23b18f6fd29 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Cc: Havard Hjulstad , Chris Newman , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0230932561==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0230932561== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_265597_4822386.1174679946814" ------=_Part_265597_4822386.1174679946814 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Based on the number of issues we have remaining, and our progress so far, I think 2 months is quite aggressive. It's not a bad idea to have fairly aggressive goals, as long as the Powers That Be realize that we may need to extend them in the future. Mark On 3/22/07, Martin Duerst wrote: > > Dear LTRU WG Members, > > Our WG currently has the following milestones at > http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html: > > Jan 2007 Submit registry procedure update draft for IETF Last Call > Jan 2007 Submit registry data update draft for IETF Last Call > > As already noticed, we won't meet these :-). > > The best estimate we currently have for the progress on ISO-639-3 > cleanup work is that it may take one to two more months. Based on > this and the fact that March is fairly progressed already, I'm > proposing that the WG request new dates of June 2007 for the above > two milestones. > > Any input on this issue is appreciated. If I don't get any input, > I'll make a request with the above dates to our Area Directors > within a few days. > > Regards, Martin. > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_265597_4822386.1174679946814 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Based on the number of issues we have remaining, and our progress so far, I think 2 months is quite aggressive.  It's not a bad idea to have fairly aggressive goals, as long as the Powers That Be realize that we may need to extend them in the future.

Mark

On 3/22/07, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
Dear LTRU WG Members,

Our WG currently has the following milestones at
http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html:

  Jan 2007    Submit registry procedure update draft for IETF Last Call
  Jan 2007    Submit registry data update draft for IETF Last Call

As already noticed, we won't meet these :-).

The best estimate we currently have for the progress on ISO-639-3
cleanup work is that it may take one to two more months. Based on
this and the fact that March is fairly progressed already, I'm
proposing that the WG request new dates of June 2007 for the above
two milestones.

Any input on this issue is appreciated. If I don't get any input,
I'll make a request with the above dates to our Area Directors
within a few days.

Regards,     Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#   http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_265597_4822386.1174679946814-- --===============0230932561== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0230932561==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 23 17:58:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUrlx-0006jy-2S; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:58:09 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUrlv-0006jr-37 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:58:07 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUrlt-0001gq-QG for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:58:07 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HUrlZ-0005rY-TY for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:57:45 +0100 Received: from d253247.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.247]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:57:45 +0100 Received: from nobody by d253247.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:57:45 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:53:32 +0100 Organization: Lines: 18 Message-ID: <46044C5C.5F3@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070322183501.0a15c6d0@localhost> <30b660a20703231259t2f4a67a1v8bbfb8e3ac9600c4@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253247.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: WG milestones X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > Based on the number of issues we have remaining, and our progress so > far, I think 2 months is quite aggressive. It's not a bad idea to have > fairly aggressive goals, as long as the Powers That Be realize that we > may need to extend them in the future. +1 Doug, if that disappoints you, there's no reason why anybody anticipating the changes in 4645bis cannot use the "hypothetical" registries based on new 4645bis I-Ds for "unofficial" purposes, e.g. I could try to modify my gawk scripts for UTF-8 input. And folks could also start to use 4645bis language tags "experimentally", if nothing completely unexpected happens we generally know what 4645bis will offer (excl. extlang for the moment.) Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 26 08:06:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVnxT-00018W-B0; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:05:55 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVnxS-00015X-8n for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:05:54 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVnxG-0000iP-PI for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:05:54 -0400 Received: from fe-amer-04.sun.com ([192.18.108.178]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l2QC5gjw027730 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:05:42 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFI00901EKKFZ00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Chris.Newman@Sun.COM) for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:05:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.150.60] ([129.150.156.5]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFI004USEXCHK30@mail-amer.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:05:42 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:06:05 +0000 From: Chris Newman Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG milestones In-reply-to: <30b660a20703231259t2f4a67a1v8bbfb8e3ac9600c4@mail.gmail.com> To: Mark Davis , Martin Duerst Message-id: <97C7EDB4B6A346F1CD73160D@[192.168.150.60]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070322183501.0a15c6d0@localhost> <30b660a20703231259t2f4a67a1v8bbfb8e3ac9600c4@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Cc: Havard Hjulstad , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I care more about forward progress on the issue list than I care about milestones. - Chris Mark Davis wrote on 3/23/07 12:59 -0700: > Based on the number of issues we have remaining, and our progress so far, I > think 2 months is quite aggressive. It's not a bad idea to have fairly > aggressive goals, as long as the Powers That Be realize that we may need to > extend them in the future. > > Mark > > > On 3/22/07, Martin Duerst wrote: > > Dear LTRU WG Members, > > Our WG currently has the following milestones at > http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html: > > Jan 2007 Submit registry procedure update draft for IETF Last Call > Jan 2007 Submit registry data update draft for IETF Last Call > > As already noticed, we won't meet these :-). > > The best estimate we currently have for the progress on ISO-639-3 > cleanup work is that it may take one to two more months. Based on > this and the fact that March is fairly progressed already, I'm > proposing that the WG request new dates of June 2007 for the above > two milestones. > > Any input on this issue is appreciated. If I don't get any input, > I'll make a request with the above dates to our Area Directors > within a few days. > > Regards, Martin. > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > -- > Mark _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 26 10:32:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVqFV-0003C9-PK; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:32:41 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVqFU-0003Bv-DS for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:32:40 -0400 Received: from mta16.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVqFS-00087D-Iv for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:32:40 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070326143235.NQQZ5629.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:32:35 -0400 Message-ID: <008e01c76fb3$990a80e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:32:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: Frank Ellermann Subject: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> I think differentiating between "no Suppress-Script field" and "a >> Suppress-Script field with an empty value" would be very tricky >> business, and I would not support it. > > As far as I'm concerned an informal file stating which languages have > intentionally no Suppress-Script would also do. It should be better > than only adding "n/a" manually to quick & dirty overviews like > , though. Even if it were possible to distinguish these two cases ("two or more scripts in use" versus "script information unknown"), I don't think such a file could remain informal for long; those who wish to ascribe an interpretation to the absence of a Suppress-Script would soon treat it as authoritative. Maybe what we need to do is add wording to 4646bis to clarify the intended meaning of "no Suppress-Script." -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 26 10:57:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVqds-0002v7-73; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:57:52 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVqdq-0002ut-6G for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:57:50 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVqdh-0005C6-0c for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:57:50 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070326145740.BUTZ2196.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:57:40 -0400 Message-ID: <009001c76fb7$19cfb710$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:57:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Subject: [Ltru] Re: WG milestones X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > Doug, if that disappoints you, there's no reason why anybody > anticipating the changes in 4645bis cannot use the "hypothetical" > registries based on new 4645bis I-Ds for "unofficial" purposes, e.g. I > could try to modify my gawk scripts for UTF-8 input. The current thinking seems to be NOT to change to UTF-8. > And folks could also start to use 4645bis language tags > "experimentally", if nothing completely unexpected happens we > generally know what 4645bis will offer (excl. extlang for the moment.) There are only two major differences between 4645 and 4645bis: 1. 7000 new language subtags 2. extlangs There's nothing magic about point 1; anyone could mock up 7000 or more subtags as easily as using the "real" ones. We no longer have consensus on point 2, and I won't even be using the draft-4645-01 data for my own experimental purposes until there is. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 26 11:04:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVqk2-0006Pe-Vv; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:04:14 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVqk1-0006PZ-Up for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:04:13 -0400 Received: from mta16.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211] helo=mta16.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVqk0-00066L-Kh for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:04:13 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20070326150411.PQKW5629.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:04:11 -0400 Message-ID: <009601c76fb8$03148310$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:04:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Subject: [Ltru] Re: WG milestones X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Chris Newman wrote: > I care more about forward progress on the issue list than I care about > milestones. Do we have an issues list? I know we have a mail archive. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 05:16:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW7mO-0008TQ-N4; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 05:15:48 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW7mN-0008TL-59 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 05:15:47 -0400 Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org ([208.145.81.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW7mJ-0007wl-K0 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 05:15:47 -0400 Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l2R9FOtK024816 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 05:15:24 -0400 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 172.22.0.51 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Free Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! Received: from [203.150.137.33] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO [192.168.1.101]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.7) with ESMTPSA id 140511026 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 05:15:23 -0400 Message-ID: <4608E0A7.6010301@sil.org> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:15:19 +0700 From: Martin Hosken User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070306) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Subject: [Ltru] Korean suppress script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Doug, Somewhere buried in the threads you mentioned that ko has not been given a suppress script because it is possible that some text may be encoded as ko-Hang and some as something else which I presume to be a combination of Hang+Hant (but there seems to be no script code for that combination). This raises the question as to when a language should have a suppress script and when not. Given that *any* language may be written using -fonipa, it can't be that a language only receives a suppress script if it cannot be rendered in another script. In effect the suppress script says: for this language if no script is specified then the script is the suppress script AND the suppressed script should not appear in language tags for this language. The upshot of which is that any script can be earmarked as being the suppressed script for a language, it's just wise to use the most common. In fact it's probably ideal that all languages have a suppressed script unless there is strong reason not to have one so that a raw lang only tag can be given meaning. In the case of ko, I would suggest that it should have a suppressed script of Hang and old text including Hant or using some other script should be explicitly marked. Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 06:06:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW8Zj-0004ZJ-5G; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 06:06:47 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW8Zh-0004Z1-4P for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 06:06:45 -0400 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW8Zf-0008Pz-A2 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 06:06:45 -0400 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2RA6UTf005972 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:06:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2a67_d5b0e5da_dc4a_11db_80c1_0014221fa3c9; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:06:30 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:56792) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:05:26 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070327184234.07720ce0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:46:06 +0900 To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [OT] Langtag implementation in Ruby X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear LTRU WG members, This is a short notice to inform anybody who is interested that today, I uploaded langtag-0.1.0 as a RubyGem to RubyForge (the usual way and place to distribute Ruby code). The package currently does well-formed tests and allows to get/set pieces of a language tag such as language, script, region, extensions, and so on. Any comments/feedback welcome. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 10:23:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWCZq-00006e-5k; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:23:10 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWCZp-00006X-1y for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:23:09 -0400 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWCZn-0004eI-Ap for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:23:09 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070327142306.SSZF6520.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:23:06 -0400 Message-ID: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:23:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Cc: Martin_Hosken@sil.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken wrote: > Somewhere buried in the threads you mentioned that ko has not been > given a suppress script because it is possible that some text may be > encoded as ko-Hang and some as something else which I presume to be a > combination of Hang+Hant (but there seems to be no script code for > that combination). It's not a matter of "some text may be." There are regular, systematic situations in which Korean is written partially in hanja. > This raises the question as to when a language should have a suppress > script and when not. Given that *any* language may be written > using -fonipa, it can't be that a language only receives a suppress > script if it cannot be rendered in another script. That misrepresents the situation with Korean. Almost any language can potentially be written in a wide variety of scripts. With Korean, it's a regular occurrence, not theory. > In effect the suppress script says: for this language if no script is > specified then the script is the suppress script AND the suppressed > script should not appear in language tags for this language. The > upshot of which is that any script can be earmarked as being the > suppressed script for a language, it's just wise to use the most > common. In fact it's probably ideal that all languages have a > suppressed script unless there is strong reason not to have one so > that a raw lang only tag can be given meaning. First, "raw" language tags without a script subtag certainly have meaning already. Often it is not important to identify the script in the tag. Sometimes the receiving process can see for itself by analyzing the characters. Then, of course, there is non-written content. Second, the purpose of Suppress-Script as I understand it is to show when a script subtag would *probably* be unnecessary for written text, because one can safely assume that the text is written in a particular script. In the absence of other information: * Written Dutch can be safely assumed to be written in the Latin script. * Written Ukrainian can be safely assumed to be written in the Cyrillic script. * Written Persian can be safely assumed to be written in the Arabic script. The same is not true for Serbian, which is written in either Latin or Cyrillic, with neither holding such a majority that it can be safely assumed. And it is not true for Korean, because the use of "pure" hangul with no hanja cannot be safely assumed. Using the "most common" isn't enough. > In the case of ko, I would suggest that it should have a suppressed > script of Hang and old text including Hant or using some other script > should be explicitly marked. It's not a matter of "old text." I read newspapers from 2006 that included hanja in their headlines. If you would like to pursue this, you might try recreating my experiment: read some modern books and newspapers and talk to some native Korean speakers. Maybe also wait for some other LTRU members to see if they agree with me about the intent of S-S. My opinion is that S-S naturally lends itself to this sort of confusion -- different reasonable people coming up with different interpretations. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 10:49:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWCzB-0005xK-M8; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:49:21 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWCzA-0005xF-Oh for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:49:20 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWCz6-0005P1-4r for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:49:20 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HWCyW-0004uQ-4r for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:48:40 +0200 Received: from d253156.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.156]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:48:40 +0200 Received: from nobody by d253156.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:48:40 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:43:32 +0200 Organization: Lines: 46 Message-ID: <46092D94.4735@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4608E0A7.6010301@sil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253156.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken wrote: > This raises the question as to when a language should have a suppress > script and when not. Yes, but... > In effect the suppress script says: for this language if no script is > specified then the script is the suppress script AND the suppressed > script should not appear in language tags for this language. ...no. There are other reasons to use no script subtag, e.g. if it's non-written content, OR it's a "legacy" (pre-4646) tag, OR it's for an application not interested in scripts (arguably the application could then just ignore script subtagts, unless it's an old application and/or tag size matters, etc.) > The upshot of which is that any script can be earmarked as being > the suppressed script for a language, it's just wise to use the most > common. In theory. In practice IMO a bad idea, using a script subtag or not can have reasons unrelated to the existence of a registered Suppress-Script. And picking the "most common" script can be a rather tricky political question, like defining what a "country" is -- or is not, the endless Wikipedia micronation debates are fascinating . > In fact it's probably ideal that all languages have a suppressed > script An ideal would be to have no such kludge at all. But in that case 4646 tags should be strictly incompatible with all pre-4646 tags, for a clear restart from scratch. The WG was chartered excluding this radical approach, and it didn't move to get rid of this restriction. So now we've got that lukewarm compromise Suppress-Scripts, and for the "old" (not 4645bis) languages missing Suppress-Scripts have to be added when identified. For "new" 4645bis languages it's slightly less important, new tags can't claim that they were added under pre-4646 rules. Of course the same pre-4646 applications existing last year will continue to exist for decades, and the Suppress-Scripts might be also relevant for "new" languages (wrt naive right-to-left matching.) Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 10:52:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWD2M-0007az-Vl; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:52:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWD2L-0007au-TM for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:52:37 -0400 Received: from mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.28]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWD2K-0006gr-LJ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:52:37 -0400 Received: (qmail 30707 messnum 5797569 invoked from network[194.125.174.17/ts09-017.dublin.indigo.ie]); 27 Mar 2007 14:47:48 -0000 Received: from ts09-017.dublin.indigo.ie (HELO ?194.125.174.17?) (194.125.174.17) by mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 30707) with SMTP; 27 Mar 2007 14:47:48 -0000 In-Reply-To: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7D2FAC4F-4DDA-4B03-941B-C6BC1307E0E4@egt.ie> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marion Gunn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 15:49:42 +0000 To: LTRU Working Group X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.728) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: Martin_Hosken@sil.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I understand clearly what Martin Hoskin writes below, but not at all =20 Doug Ewell's response - are you saying that Korean cannot be written =20 in IPA, Doug?!? mg On 27 Mar 2007, at 14:23, scr=EDobh Doug Ewell: > Martin Hosken wrote: > ... Given that *any* language may be written using -fonipa, it =20 > can't be that a language only receives a suppress script if it =20 > cannot be rendered in another script. >> > > That misrepresents the situation with Korean... - - Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 11:02:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWDBa-0004Fq-Vk; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:02:10 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWDBZ-0004EH-O7 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:02:09 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWDBY-0000Nu-F2 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:02:09 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HWDBF-0007Rp-Gy for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:01:49 +0200 Received: from d253156.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.253.156]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:01:49 +0200 Received: from nobody by d253156.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:01:49 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:01:04 +0200 Organization: Lines: 20 Message-ID: <460931B0.69B2@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <008e01c76fb3$990a80e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d253156.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Even if it were possible to distinguish these two cases ("two or more > scripts in use" versus "script information unknown"), I don't think such > a file could remain informal for long; those who wish to ascribe an > interpretation to the absence of a Suppress-Script would soon treat it > as authoritative. If folks "abuse" info it's their problem. We've seen the consequences of assuming that country codes are not recycled (just an example). An informal list of "intentionally no Suppress-Script" languages would be a "work in progress" memo of / for the review list, not "authoritative". > Maybe what we need to do is add wording to 4646bis to clarify the > intended meaning of "no Suppress-Script." +1 Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 11:07:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWDGl-0006aW-V4; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:07:31 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWDGl-0006Zg-6E for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:07:31 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWDGj-0001EW-Su for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:07:31 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HWDGf-00050y-KU; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:07:25 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:07:25 -0400 To: Marion Gunn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script Message-ID: <20070327150725.GF5493@mercury.ccil.org> References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <7D2FAC4F-4DDA-4B03-941B-C6BC1307E0E4@egt.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7D2FAC4F-4DDA-4B03-941B-C6BC1307E0E4@egt.ie> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Martin_Hosken@sil.org, LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Marion Gunn scripsit: > I understand clearly what Martin Hoskin writes below, but not at all > Doug Ewell's response - are you saying that Korean cannot be written > in IPA, Doug?!? Of course not. He is saying that Korean like Serbian, and unlike English and many other languages) is ROUTINELY written in different scripts in different circumstances. Any language may be *transcribed* in IPA, but languages are not routinely written using it. -- What asininity could I have uttered John Cowan that they applaud me thus? http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Phocion, Greek orator _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 11:26:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWDYc-0007dY-1S; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:25:58 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWDYb-0007dT-33 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:25:57 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWDYZ-0004pu-Og for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:25:57 -0400 Received: from [10.72.77.212] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c212.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.212]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2RFPpWj035416 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:25:51 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FDIC/5FH87Y12+ta3ELp9DKxHJFBHhcrKddrqb1nMoMabKE5IV5UX5N6IB/nuCHs Message-ID: <4609377F.1070101@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:25:51 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script References: <008e01c76fb3$990a80e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <460931B0.69B2@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <460931B0.69B2@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > If folks "abuse" info it's their problem. We've seen the consequences > of assuming that country codes are not recycled (just an example). An > informal list of "intentionally no Suppress-Script" languages would be > a "work in progress" memo of / for the review list, not "authoritative". > >> Maybe what we need to do is add wording to 4646bis to clarify the >> intended meaning of "no Suppress-Script." > > +1 > Then I propose we add this paragraph to section 3.1.9: -- Many language subtag records do not have a Suppress-Script field. The lack of a Suppress-Script might indicate that the language is customarily written in more than one script (or that the language is not customarily written at all). It might also mean that authoritative information was not available with the record was created and has not be registered yet. -- Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 12:02:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWE7l-0001MO-ER; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:02:17 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWE7k-0001Ls-B0 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:02:16 -0400 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.231]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWE7j-0004Vr-0P for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:02:16 -0400 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id o37so2102053nzf for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:02:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=MRmug8vdKjyYXuksAYfMZw2/6H6EPpV5TdvubxZmhk1RNMJHWKIha9GVZjsxOc3rpEZA9+ASCfe+JXCaPFRFgkA0gDLX72GHgUpl2W4Cok/4dKHCr3g7wbYEC9cLs6ZFtrzycHC0zZXK0vtR02nrjRHXECIlu+CO9QQkqk5UKBc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=QCQ1VSMZP3q2AfDI4SNfCd4JvLSjecl9SBiFbWkLKbQ9hlEkCzrmzFokwo5mDgcLnLnPLJoHVyAmldbL3YTHC1Yv0ZNnz8Zuqwg9Sa5luj4nubUAZvPvCoaznap6pfsk65QtuYZ7QoXemqQtdQg8i8FzMosqIcFc45fFGRegov4= Received: by 10.115.17.1 with SMTP id u1mr3213661wai.1175011333905; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703270902n581742f2w217ec21d604463b3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:02:13 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script In-Reply-To: <4609377F.1070101@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <008e01c76fb3$990a80e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <460931B0.69B2@xyzzy.claranet.de> <4609377F.1070101@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5636a768117bbe94 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1318850092==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1318850092== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13535_5694126.1175011333589" ------=_Part_13535_5694126.1175011333589 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1 On 3/27/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > > > > If folks "abuse" info it's their problem. We've seen the consequences > > of assuming that country codes are not recycled (just an example). An > > informal list of "intentionally no Suppress-Script" languages would be > > a "work in progress" memo of / for the review list, not "authoritative". > > > >> Maybe what we need to do is add wording to 4646bis to clarify the > >> intended meaning of "no Suppress-Script." > > > > +1 > > > > Then I propose we add this paragraph to section 3.1.9: > > -- > Many language subtag records do not have a Suppress-Script field. The > lack of a Suppress-Script might indicate that the language is > customarily written in more than one script (or that the language is not > customarily written at all). It might also mean that authoritative > information was not available with the record was created and has not be > registered yet. > -- > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_13535_5694126.1175011333589 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1

On 3/27/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
>
> If folks "abuse" info it's their problem.  We've seen the consequences
> of assuming that country codes are not recycled (just an example).  An
> informal list of "intentionally no Suppress-Script" languages would be
> a "work in progress" memo of / for the review list, not "authoritative".
>
>> Maybe what we need to do is add wording to 4646bis to clarify the
>> intended meaning of "no Suppress-Script."
>
> +1
>

Then I propose we add this paragraph to section 3.1.9:

--
Many language subtag records do not have a Suppress-Script field. The
lack of a Suppress-Script might indicate that the language is
customarily written in more than one script (or that the language is not
customarily written at all). It might also mean that authoritative
information was not available with the record was created and has not be
registered yet.
--

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_13535_5694126.1175011333589-- --===============1318850092== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1318850092==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 12:21:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWEQe-0001fl-V7; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:21:48 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWEQd-0001eN-ST for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:21:47 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWEQc-0000K7-Ad for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:21:47 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HWEQI-0003KI-4O for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:21:26 +0200 Received: from du-001-241.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.241]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:21:26 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-241.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:21:26 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:20:37 +0200 Organization: Lines: 6 Message-ID: <46094455.6425@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <008e01c76fb3$990a80e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <460931B0.69B2@xyzzy.claranet.de> <4609377F.1070101@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703270902n581742f2w217ec21d604463b3@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-241.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > +1 s/1/2/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 12:41:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWEjO-0003Wc-7O; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:41:10 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWEjM-0003NI-An for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:41:08 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWEjE-0005bj-SF for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:41:08 -0400 Received: from [10.72.77.212] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c212.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.212]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2RGeofF051392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:40:52 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject: content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=EwnjyzGO9i78dTl5+FxVZQr6DKqAp4dpm2pgAaWDfGB5iRmTjycYZRY1zkV0ClTg Message-ID: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:40:50 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Subject: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org All, I have prepared an updated editor's copy of 4646bis. I intend to submit it tomorrow, so comments now will make it into the document. Note that I have removed the changes I proposed making the file UTF-8. See: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.xml Wdiff is at: http://tinyurl.com/23jv2b Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 16:37:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWIQR-0005tG-Jn; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:37:51 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWIQQ-0005tB-Tm for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:37:50 -0400 Received: from bortzmeyer.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWIQM-0005V3-LQ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:37:50 -0400 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id F18C424080E; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:37:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8A6E61247F; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:32:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:32:42 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Language Tag Registry Update Working Group , ietf-languages@iana.org Message-ID: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [Marketing] An official Web site for IETF Languages? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org It is now a few months since I've set up: http://ltru.generic-nic.net/ The intent was to prototype a Web site for the "language tag community", gathering all that was necessary for ordinary users, tags submitters, software developers, etc. I believe it could be the time to move from an experiment to a more "official" Web page (yes, I know we are not a fomal organization and we cannot have anything really official; but you get the idea). I suggest that we discuss a common Web site with these items, under a domain name to reserve (I have a idea, and the domain is free, but I prefer not to mention it publicly, because of cybersquatters). I am of course ready, either to transfer files, scripts and management to a person or group of persons, choosen by us, or to keep caretaking it, at your choice. So, opinions? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 17:02:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWIns-0001uL-Td; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:02:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWInr-0001uA-VP for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:02:03 -0400 Received: from bay0-omc2-s9.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.145]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWInm-000346-GM for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:02:03 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.169.26]) by bay0-omc2-s9.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:01:58 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:01:57 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.169.200 by by114fd.bay114.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:01:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.133.185.129] X-Originating-Email: [cewcathar@hotmail.com] X-Sender: cewcathar@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> From: "CE Whitehead" To: bortzmeyer@nic.fr, ltru@ietf.org, ietf-languages@iana.org Bcc: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:01:53 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2007 21:01:57.0691 (UTC) FILETIME=[280F80B0:01C770B3] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] RE: [Marketing] An official Web site for IETF Languages? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Stephane, you've done a great job of keeping up the web site. if there is to be a group replacing you, the only issue is to make sure that each member knows his/her responsibility and will be able to carry them out. I like the site fine the way you alone have done it, but we do not pay you to do it; it's not quite fair. I suggest we wait to see what members of the group could contribute to keeping the site up. {I'm great at developing web sites but I am not sure what I am going to be doing exactly in a few months--right now I use a computer at a library as time (their and mine) permits; I do not have my own computer, because of this I do not know if I can commit to anything, though I can always create a page or two if someone needs that done. But--I owe on a student loan, so it's get a job or else, and I do not know where I will be, or what I will be doing. If, a few months down the road, I have a computer and am somewhere permanent . . . then I would like to help, but the site seems to be perfect, need nothing, at this point} Thanks for doing the great site in any case. --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com > >It is now a few months since I've set up: > >http://ltru.generic-nic.net/ > >The intent was to prototype a Web site for the "language tag >community", gathering all that was necessary for ordinary users, tags >submitters, software developers, etc. > >I believe it could be the time to move from an experiment to a more >"official" Web page (yes, I know we are not a fomal organization and >we cannot have anything really official; but you get the idea). > >I suggest that we discuss a common Web site with these items, under a >domain name to reserve (I have a idea, and the domain is free, but I >prefer not to mention it publicly, because of cybersquatters). > >I am of course ready, either to transfer files, scripts and management >to a person or group of persons, choosen by us, or to keep caretaking >it, at your choice. > >So, opinions? > > >_______________________________________________ >Ietf-languages mailing list >Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _________________________________________________________________ i'm making a difference.Make every IM count for the cause of your choice. Join Now. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtagline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 21:02:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWMYT-00046l-AJ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:02:25 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWMYS-00046g-EZ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:02:24 -0400 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.228]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWMYR-0005ZQ-39 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:02:24 -0400 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 71so1984827wri for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:02:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=EVCjoydA4fpE6hTK3Zh9TPoobqV4foNrGa/XoGZ8ZVXld9sZuQbGT4OJKZ8XpbjDtg/BBtVELU6DczrHsOinbcN/pTxNDQgY7AdTpPFOVGqw0ob/qd7cjMyIWBh+kVzV3H9O/SjwQ4GMCF3U2KnxOFJR3d/hp2N3Fs4wTPjB7aA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=tvD94EATJyiOSPftOYbVPpnxeQYOmVvBzaQxRjCRIGzt0TMfuZyQpkjeEnG4puPy6CYSiTnUQwhzz0P5DvhbvFCm0oW3DLwUAX3A3iufeFjFhR2fYMCyDMDnHes0CAu9dM3/dvBpz85n4lZbOMFMoJn3mCCbZkeOxDUVAiZQ2Jw= Received: by 10.114.173.15 with SMTP id v15mr3434446wae.1175043741927; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703271802k5b1a9c88sae30be4a552a2f7e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:02:21 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... In-Reply-To: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: abb698bd921fff37 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1331362722==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1331362722== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_24614_28701593.1175043741893" ------=_Part_24614_28701593.1175043741893 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'd like to see an open issues section, that lists the items still to be resolved. Also, in requiring prefixes for variants -- is that safe with the current registry, or would it create grandfathered variants? Mark On 3/27/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > All, > > I have prepared an updated editor's copy of 4646bis. I intend to submit > it tomorrow, so comments now will make it into the document. > > Note that I have removed the changes I proposed making the file UTF-8. > > See: > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.html > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.xml > > Wdiff is at: > > http://tinyurl.com/23jv2b > > Addison > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_24614_28701593.1175043741893 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'd like to see an open issues section, that lists the items still to be resolved. Also, in requiring prefixes for variants -- is that safe with the current registry, or would it create grandfathered variants?

Mark

On 3/27/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
All,

I have prepared an updated editor's copy of 4646bis. I intend to submit
it tomorrow, so comments now will make it into the document.

Note that I have removed the changes I proposed making the file UTF-8.

See:

  http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.html
   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt
  http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.xml

Wdiff is at:

  http://tinyurl.com/23jv2b

Addison
--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_24614_28701593.1175043741893-- --===============1331362722== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1331362722==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 22:26:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWNrZ-0001lq-Vv; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:26:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWNrY-0001lM-FR for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:26:12 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWNrT-0005wI-KN for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:26:12 -0400 Received: from [10.72.72.62] (snvvpn1-10-72-72-c62.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.72.62]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2S2Pxn5092886 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:25:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=SO379NKTgzckjZcVFN+H8EbAeSbJCw2t5SdXM9CsNhb4Wi0RcEAOZLcsFDGdqOyW Message-ID: <4609D237.7030602@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:25:59 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703271802k5b1a9c88sae30be4a552a2f7e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703271802k5b1a9c88sae30be4a552a2f7e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Ur... we didn't require that variants have a Prefix. We required that prefix references not be circular (your text, actually). Presence of a prefix is still not required ("MAY") in the registry and still strongly encouraged ("SHOULD") at registration time. Open issues should really be tracked by the chairs. However, if you want me to put in the list we corresponded about off-list a couple days ago, I'll include it in the "changes" section before submission. Addison Mark Davis wrote: > I'd like to see an open issues section, that lists the items still to be > resolved. Also, in requiring prefixes for variants -- is that safe with > the current registry, or would it create grandfathered variants? > > Mark > > On 3/27/07, *Addison Phillips* > wrote: > > All, > > I have prepared an updated editor's copy of 4646bis. I intend to submit > it tomorrow, so comments now will make it into the document. > > Note that I have removed the changes I proposed making the file UTF-8. > > See: > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.html > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.xml > > Wdiff is at: > > http://tinyurl.com/23jv2b > > Addison > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > -- > Mark -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 23:31:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWOsx-0001Rk-38; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:31:43 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWOsw-0001Rf-HY for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:31:42 -0400 Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org ([208.145.81.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWOss-0007ID-8h for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:31:42 -0400 Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l2S3Vbhb006577 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:31:37 -0400 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 172.22.0.51 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Free Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! Received: from [203.154.52.37] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO [192.168.1.101]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.7) with ESMTPSA id 140611346 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:31:37 -0400 Message-ID: <4609E196.6030004@sil.org> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:31:34 +0700 From: Martin Hosken User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070306) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Subject: [Ltru] ways of tagging Chinese X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear All, In my ongoing quest to try to get my head around this language tagging thing, please excuse my dumb questions. I'm starting a collection of ways for tagging Mandarin Chinese using the Simplified script, one of the most dominant languages in use on the net at the moment. I've seen: zh-CN zh-Hans zh-Hans-CN zh-cmn-CN zh-cmn-Hans zh-cmn-Hans-CN These all look OK, but what confuses me are the questions it raises: 1. How does zh-CN imply both cmn and Hans? 2. How is anyone supposed to know that specifying the script of zh implies cmn? I suppose one could say that for pure zh, the cmn is redundant and that removes the last 3 from the list. But the first two are difficult to resolve as zh-Hans should be matched by zh-CN (semantically, I hasten to add). It also raises the question, where that information is to be held so that people not on this list might get hold of it. So how, in order to be as future proof as we can tell from here, should I tag Mandarin Chinese in Simplified Script? Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 23:38:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWOzR-0003Ke-IQ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:38:25 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWOzR-0003J6-02 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:38:25 -0400 Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org ([208.145.81.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWOzP-0000B1-Nr for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:38:24 -0400 Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l2S3cKt9006933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:38:20 -0400 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 172.22.0.51 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Free Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! Received: from [203.154.52.37] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO [192.168.1.101]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.7) with ESMTPSA id 140611735; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:38:20 -0400 Message-ID: <4609E329.209@sil.org> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:38:17 +0700 From: Martin Hosken User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070306) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Doug, > > It's not a matter of "some text may be." There are regular, > systematic situations in which Korean is written partially in hanja. I see a script code for hanja but I don't see one for the combination of Hangul + Hanja, so how would korean partially written in hanga be tagged? Would ko-Hani imply there is no Hangul in the text? > > That misrepresents the situation with Korean. Almost any language can > potentially be written in a wide variety of scripts. With Korean, > it's a regular occurrence, not theory. My misrepresentation was entirely unintended and I apologise if I gave any offense by it. Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 00:31:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWPp2-0005CB-Sg; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:31:44 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWPp1-0005As-SN for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:31:43 -0400 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWPow-0005VS-WE for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:31:43 -0400 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2S4VZsc001387 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:31:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 33b6_3661de80_dce5_11db_85d0_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:31:35 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:38165) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:30:30 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328130410.056b4e30@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:12:20 +0900 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Language Tag Registry Update Working Group , ietf-languages@iana.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] [Marketing] An official Web site for IETF Languages? In-Reply-To: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> References: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [chair hat off] Apart from the glaring color scheme, I think this site is quite useful. If I have some info to contribute, I'll gladly do so. I also think that you have done a great job, and would be extremely glad if you could continue to keep taking care of it, at this or at a new location (and either way, get rid of the "Currently, it is just a draft to trigger discussions.") [chair hat on] As already said below, there are no official Web pages for IETF standards/BCPs or IETF WGs. But there is no need for a Web site to be official to be useful. Regards, Martin. At 05:32 07/03/28, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >It is now a few months since I've set up: > >http://ltru.generic-nic.net/ > >The intent was to prototype a Web site for the "language tag >community", gathering all that was necessary for ordinary users, tags >submitters, software developers, etc. > >I believe it could be the time to move from an experiment to a more >"official" Web page (yes, I know we are not a fomal organization and >we cannot have anything really official; but you get the idea). > >I suggest that we discuss a common Web site with these items, under a >domain name to reserve (I have a idea, and the domain is free, but I >prefer not to mention it publicly, because of cybersquatters). > >I am of course ready, either to transfer files, scripts and management >to a person or group of persons, choosen by us, or to keep caretaking >it, at your choice. > >So, opinions? > > > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 00:31:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWPoz-00056q-Lv; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:31:41 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWPoy-00056h-Sq for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:31:40 -0400 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWPow-0005Rn-WE for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:31:40 -0400 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2S4VVHI001368 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:31:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 33cb_3411bf92_dce5_11db_9df8_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:31:31 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:38165) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:30:26 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328120423.077dc3b0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:06:20 +0900 To: Addison Phillips , Frank Ellermann From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script In-Reply-To: <4609377F.1070101@yahoo-inc.com> References: <008e01c76fb3$990a80e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <460931B0.69B2@xyzzy.claranet.de> <4609377F.1070101@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 00:25 07/03/28, Addison Phillips wrote: >Then I propose we add this paragraph to section 3.1.9: +1, with a few tweaks. >-- >Many language subtag records do not have a Suppress-Script field. The lack of a Suppress-Script might indicate that the language is customarily written in more than one script (or that the language is not customarily written at all). Please remove the parentheses, using a comma instead. >It might also mean that authoritative information was not available with the record was created and has not be registered yet. with -> when; also, change 'authoritative' to something else unless that's the terminology we use for other registry-related stuff. (to me, it suggests something more official than what's usually required). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 00:31:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWPoz-00056m-JR; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:31:41 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWPoy-00056c-QP for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:31:40 -0400 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWPox-0005VR-5i for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:31:40 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2S4VX6D009989 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:31:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2714_350cbdd4_dce5_11db_85dd_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:31:33 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:38165) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:30:27 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328120740.056b21a0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:47:46 +0900 To: John Cowan , Marion Gunn From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script In-Reply-To: <20070327150725.GF5493@mercury.ccil.org> References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <7D2FAC4F-4DDA-4B03-941B-C6BC1307E0E4@egt.ie> <20070327150725.GF5493@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: Martin_Hosken@sil.org, LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 00:07 07/03/28, John Cowan wrote: >Marion Gunn scripsit: > >> I understand clearly what Martin Hoskin writes below, but not at all >> Doug Ewell's response - are you saying that Korean cannot be written >> in IPA, Doug?!? > >Of course not. He is saying that Korean like Serbian, and unlike >English and many other languages) is ROUTINELY written in different >scripts in different circumstances. Any language may be *transcribed* >in IPA, but languages are not routinely written using it. The situation with Korean is actually quite a bit different from Serbian. Serbian is written either in Cyrillic or in Latin; except in very special circumstances, these are not mixed. Korean is usually written in a mixture of Hangul and Hanja (Ideographs), with the percentage of Hangul often reaching 100%. 100% Hanja is rare in general texts, but quite often seen e.g. on business cards. Almost anything inbetween the two extremes exists. That's why it's so difficult to use simple script labels for Korean, or to define a Suppress-Script value. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 01:43:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWQwS-0007P7-Np; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:43:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWQwR-0007J8-Kf for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:43:27 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWQwQ-0002NY-Be for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:43:27 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070328054323.INQC2196.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:43:23 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c770fc$00570180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4609E329.209@sil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:43:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken wrote: > I see a script code for hanja but I don't see one for the combination > of Hangul + Hanja, so how would korean partially written in hanga be > tagged? Would ko-Hani imply there is no Hangul in the text? I think the presence of a script subtag implies that the text is overwhelmingly written in that script, not that there cannot be a single letter in another script. One example that is sometimes cited involves a mathematician writing in English (or French or German or whatever) about the value π; the presence of a Greek letter in the text does not make it "not Latin." You therefore bring up an interesting point involving the small but systematic use of hanja in Korean. If a text is predominantly Hangul, but includes one or two hanja characters here and there -- in a headline, a personal name, an advertisement -- does that really make the text "not Hangul"? For this, I have to ask the list for help. Is such a text really mixed-script? I concur that it might sometimes be desirable to write "ko-(Hang+Hani)" or something similar. I have no idea how we would go about solving such a problem without causing much more breakage to existing parsers than anything else we have done to this point. We cannot expect additional "combination codes" like Hrkt and Jpan to be added to ISO 15924. >> That misrepresents the situation with Korean. > > My misrepresentation was entirely unintended and I apologise if I gave > any offense by it. No offense taken. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 02:00:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRCm-0005Ov-T5; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:00:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRCm-0005On-EG for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:00:20 -0400 Received: from james.jaars.org ([208.145.81.51] helo=smtp1.wsfo.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRCl-0005AM-4d for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:00:20 -0400 Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l2S60GoE014889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:00:16 -0400 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 172.22.0.51 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Free Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! Received: from [203.154.52.37] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO [192.168.1.101]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.7) with ESMTPSA id 140622133; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:00:15 -0400 Message-ID: <460A046C.3050704@sil.org> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:00:12 +0700 From: Martin Hosken User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070306) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4609E329.209@sil.org> <000b01c770fc$00570180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <000b01c770fc$00570180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Doug, > > You therefore bring up an interesting point involving the small but > systematic use of hanja in Korean. If a text is predominantly Hangul, > but includes one or two hanja characters here and there -- in a > headline, a personal name, an advertisement -- does that really make > the text "not Hangul"? For this, I have to ask the list for help. Is > such a text really mixed-script? Sounds like an orthography variant to me. How about registering an orthography variant for ko that says: contains hanja? Since even for texts with hanja in them, they are basically Hangul with some interesting spellings of words (using hanja). Of course this means that the script for all Korean text (well basically all) is going to be -Hang and so we are open to a suppress script again :) All very circular. And then one just adds the orthography variant if one wants to mark that it contains hanja. At least, with no other input, that's what I would do. Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 02:00:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRD2-0005TQ-SO; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:00:36 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRD1-0005TI-Ro for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:00:35 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRD0-0005B5-JB for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:00:35 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070328060034.VAWH375.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:00:34 +0000 Message-ID: <001701c770fe$668031f0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:00:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Subject: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Marion Gunn wrote: > I understand clearly what Martin Hoskin writes below, but not at all > Doug Ewell's response - are you saying that Korean cannot be written > in IPA, Doug?!? I'm surprised that was open to any misinterpretation. Let me try again: > This raises the question as to when a language should have a suppress > script and when not. Given that *any* language may be written > using -fonipa, it can't be that a language only receives a suppress > script if it cannot be rendered in another script. That misrepresents the situation with Korean. Almost any language can potentially be written in a wide variety of scripts. With Korean, it's a regular occurrence, not theory. In other words, Spanish *can* be written in Cyrillic, and English *can* be written in Katakana. (I've seen both.) It is indeed possible, but not a "normal" way for those languages to be written. In contrast, Korean in hanja is very much within the realm of normality. None of this really has to do with IPA. I agree with Martin that (almost) any language can be written in IPA. (With 7,600 languages, there could be a few exceptions.) What I disagreed with was the next premise, that Korean in hanja was some kind of weird edge case. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 02:02:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWREq-0006FB-0Z; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:02:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWREo-00069z-Gg for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:02:26 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWREj-0005aK-8S for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:02:26 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HWREi-0002kT-Qg; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:02:20 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:02:20 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script Message-ID: <20070328060220.GK5493@mercury.ccil.org> References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4609E329.209@sil.org> <000b01c770fc$00570180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000b01c770fc$00570180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > We cannot expect additional > "combination codes" like Hrkt and Jpan to be added to ISO 15924. I have just requested the assignment of Hnhg for exactly that purpose. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan .e'osai ko sarji la lojban. Please support Lojban! http://www.lojban.org _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 02:17:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRT6-0006Jr-N5; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:17:12 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRT4-0006Ip-8E for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:17:10 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRSR-0007zA-9i for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:16:33 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070328061630.VXSC375.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:16:30 +0000 Message-ID: <001b01c77100$a0a7f910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:16:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > I have prepared an updated editor's copy of 4646bis. I intend to > submit it tomorrow, so comments now will make it into the document. > > Note that I have removed the changes I proposed making the file UTF-8. There's also no change to the wording in sections 2.2.2 and 3.4 establishing a relationship between extlangs and ISO 639-3 encompassed languages. We need to figure out which way we are going with that. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 02:28:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWReB-0003iy-0c; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:28:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWReA-0003is-NF for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:28:38 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRe9-0002hZ-9i for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:28:38 -0400 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20070328062836.LFVK2196.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:28:36 -0400 Message-ID: <002701c77102$50c576a0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4609E329.209@sil.org> <000b01c770fc$00570180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20070328060220.GK5493@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:28:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: >> We cannot expect additional "combination codes" like Hrkt and Jpan to >> be added to ISO 15924. > > I have just requested the assignment of Hnhg for exactly that purpose. If this code element is added, resulting in a new script subtag, then I would expect it to become the Suppress-Script for "ko", and I would further expect "ko-Hang" to be interpreted as "Korean in virtually pure Hangul, with almost no trace of Han," the way it is written in the DPRK. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 02:31:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRgZ-0003zW-HJ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:31:07 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRgY-0003zR-FN for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:31:06 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWRgX-0003L4-8j for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:31:06 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HWRgX-0004VW-1E; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:31:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:31:05 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script Message-ID: <20070328063104.GM5493@mercury.ccil.org> References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4609E329.209@sil.org> <000b01c770fc$00570180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20070328060220.GK5493@mercury.ccil.org> <002701c77102$50c576a0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002701c77102$50c576a0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > If this code element is added, resulting in a new script subtag, then I > would expect it to become the Suppress-Script for "ko", and I would > further expect "ko-Hang" to be interpreted as "Korean in virtually pure > Hangul, with almost no trace of Han," the way it is written in the DPRK. It's precisely because practice differs in the North and the South that I'd be very much against any Suppress-Script at all. -- Deshil Holles eamus. Deshil Holles eamus. Deshil Holles eamus. Send us, bright one, light one, Horhorn, quickening, and wombfruit. (3x) Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! -- Joyce, Ulysses, "Oxen of the Sun" cowan@ccil.org _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 03:03:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWSCF-0004iH-Hw; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:03:51 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWSCE-0004i0-2i for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:03:50 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWSCC-0002TF-PQ for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:03:50 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HWSCC-0006kx-B8; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:03:48 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:03:48 -0400 To: Martin Hosken Subject: Re: [Ltru] ways of tagging Chinese Message-ID: <20070328070348.GN5493@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4609E196.6030004@sil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4609E196.6030004@sil.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken scripsit: > I'm starting a collection of ways for tagging Mandarin Chinese using the > Simplified script, one of the most dominant languages in use on the net > at the moment. I've seen: Here are my glosses of these tags. In each case, the first sentence is normative; any later sentences are informative and based on encyclopedic knowledge. > zh-CN "Some variety of Chinese used in the People's Republic. Probably Mandarin, but not certainly so. If textual, probably in simplified script, but not certainly so. Historically used to indicate simplified script specifically, but this interpretation can no longer be treated as certain since the registration of zh-Hans on 2003-05-30." > zh-Hans "Some variety of Chinese written in simplified script. Probably Mandarin, but not certainly so." > zh-Hans-CN "Some variety of Chinese written in simplified script and in use in the People's Republic. Probably Mandarin, but not certainly so." > zh-cmn-CN "Mandarin Chinese as used in the People's Republic. If textual, probably in simplified script, but not certainly so." > zh-cmn-Hans "Mandarin Chinese written in simplified script." > zh-cmn-Hans-CN "Mandarin Chinese as used in the People's Republic written in simplified script." > These all look OK, but what confuses me are the questions it raises: > > 1. How does zh-CN imply both cmn and Hans? It doesn't imply it, it merely suggests it, as ja suggests the variety spoken in Japan (ja-JP) but does not imply it. > 2. How is anyone supposed to know that specifying the script of zh > implies cmn? It's just a fact about written zh that it tends to be zh-cmn. > I suppose one could say that for pure zh, the cmn is redundant It is not. Spoken Cantonese may validly be labeled zh, for zh may be used for any variety of Chinese. > It also raises the question, where that information is to be held > so that people not on this list might get hold of it. One can track back from zh (RFC 4646) to zh (ISO 639-1) to zho (ISO 639-3) to the explanation of zho on the SIL web site. > So how, in order to be as future proof as we can tell from here, should > I tag Mandarin Chinese in Simplified Script? zh-cmn-Hans is already valid. -- At the end of the Metatarsal Age, the dinosaurs John Cowan abruptly vanished. The theory that a single cowan@ccil.org catastrophic event may have been responsible http://www.ccil.org/~cowan has been strengthened by the recent discovery of a worldwide layer of whipped cream marking the Creosote-Tutelary boundary. --Science Made Stupid _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 05:09:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWU9k-0006Jr-S3; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:09:24 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWU9i-0006J6-Na for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:09:22 -0400 Received: from mail00.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWU9e-0000gP-Qj for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:09:22 -0400 Received: (qmail 16931 messnum 6390076 invoked from network[194.125.174.92/ts09-092.dublin.indigo.ie]); 28 Mar 2007 09:09:17 -0000 Received: from ts09-092.dublin.indigo.ie (HELO ?194.125.174.92?) (194.125.174.92) by mail00.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 16931) with SMTP; 28 Mar 2007 09:09:17 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328120740.056b21a0@localhost> References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <7D2FAC4F-4DDA-4B03-941B-C6BC1307E0E4@egt.ie> <20070327150725.GF5493@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070328120740.056b21a0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marion Gunn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:11:08 +0000 To: LTRU Working Group X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.728) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thanks for your patience in explaining that, Martin - with LTRU msgs =20 often running at a volume of 24 msgs or more in the space of 24 hrs, =20 keeping abreast of any one thread can be so time-consuming that I can =20= well understand those who just stop trying! mg On 28 Mar 2007, at 03:47, scr=EDobh Martin Duerst: > ... > Korean is usually written in a mixture of Hangul and Hanja =20 > (Ideographs), > with the percentage of Hangul often reaching 100%. 100% Hanja is > rare in general texts, but quite often seen e.g. on business cards. > Almost anything inbetween the two extremes exists. That's why it's > so difficult to use simple script labels for Korean, or to define > a Suppress-Script value. - - Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 05:12:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWUCs-0000HZ-DZ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:12:38 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWUCr-0000HR-KU for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:12:37 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWUCq-0001ag-By for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:12:37 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id D7CB11C00E4; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:12:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1DDD1C00D5; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:12:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3BF258ED21; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:12:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:12:23 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Martin Duerst Message-ID: <20070328091223.GA11952@nic.fr> References: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070328130410.056b4e30@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328130410.056b4e30@localhost> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, Language Tag Registry Update Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: [Marketing] An official Web site for IETF Languages? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 01:12:20PM +0900, Martin Duerst wrote a message of 49 lines which said: > Apart from the glaring color scheme, :-) > But there is no need for a Web site to be official to be useful. I know, that is why I've put "official" between quotes. What I wanted to say is that it may be time to move from a one-person Web site to something which is more the work of the "community"... _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 05:17:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWUHD-0001dO-Ip; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:17:07 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWUHD-0001dJ-47 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:17:07 -0400 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWUHA-000334-9b for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:17:07 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l2S9H2aR027346 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:17:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 27c3_16ef2f1c_dd0d_11db_8ee9_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:17:02 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:57086) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:15:57 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328160850.0ac3d3a0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:10:51 +0900 To: John Cowan , Doug Ewell From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Korean suppress script In-Reply-To: <20070328063104.GM5493@mercury.ccil.org> References: <013001c7707b$7067fd20$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <4609E329.209@sil.org> <000b01c770fc$00570180$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20070328060220.GK5493@mercury.ccil.org> <002701c77102$50c576a0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20070328063104.GM5493@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 15:31 07/03/28, John Cowan wrote: >Doug Ewell scripsit: > >> If this code element is added, resulting in a new script subtag, then I >> would expect it to become the Suppress-Script for "ko", and I would >> further expect "ko-Hang" to be interpreted as "Korean in virtually pure >> Hangul, with almost no trace of Han," the way it is written in the DPRK. > >It's precisely because practice differs in the North and the South >that I'd be very much against any Suppress-Script at all. I'm very sure that practice differs between North and South. But I have been given reliable reports that Hanja were to some extent used in certain circumstances (/at certain times) in the North, and on the other hand, there are widely disseminated publications in the South that use Hangul only, so it's not as simple as North -> Hangul only; South -> including Hanja. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 10:52:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWZVL-0006od-9R; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:52:03 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWZVJ-0006oK-PS for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:52:01 -0400 Received: from bay0-omc2-s34.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.170]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWZUt-0001na-Dl for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:52:01 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.169.42]) by bay0-omc2-s34.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:51:34 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:51:34 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.169.200 by by114fd.bay114.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:51:33 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.133.185.129] X-Originating-Email: [cewcathar@hotmail.com] X-Sender: cewcathar@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328130410.056b4e30@localhost> From: "CE Whitehead" To: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp, bortzmeyer@nic.fr, ltru@ietf.org, ietf-languages@iana.org Bcc: Subject: Re: [Ltru] [Marketing] An official Web site for IETF Languages? Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:51:33 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2007 14:51:34.0623 (UTC) FILETIME=[947E2EF0:01C77148] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > >Apart from the glaring color scheme, I think this site is quite useful. Hi, I think we can select a new color scheme as a group if that's what people want (I'm pretty color-tolerant, but it is maybe a little bright, oh well; the w3c has test pages that mix red and green horribly): There's a color coder and a list of browser-compatible colors (more colors are browser-compatible today) at the following url: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Guide/Style.html#hexcolors >If I have some info to contribute, I'll gladly do so. Who updates the ltru pages (http://ltru.generic-nic.net/registries.html and the links there) when a new language/variant/etc. subtag is registered? Someone needs to keep those up. (Like I said, I cannot commit more than a month or so down the road; then I do not know where I will be . . . what computer access I will have) >I also think that you have done a great job, and would be extremely >glad if you could continue to keep taking care of it, at this or >at a new location (and either way, get rid of the "Currently, it is >just a draft to trigger discussions.") > >[chair hat on] >As already said below, there are no official Web pages for >IETF standards/BCPs or IETF WGs. But there is no need for >a Web site to be official to be useful. > >Regards, Martin. > >At 05:32 07/03/28, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > >It is now a few months since I've set up: > > > >http://ltru.generic-nic.net/ > > > >The intent was to prototype a Web site for the "language tag > >community", gathering all that was necessary for ordinary users, tags > >submitters, software developers, etc. > > > >I believe it could be the time to move from an experiment to a more > >"official" Web page (yes, I know we are not a fomal organization and > >we cannot have anything really official; but you get the idea). > > > >I suggest that we discuss a common Web site with these items, under a > >domain name to reserve (I have a idea, and the domain is free, but I > >prefer not to mention it publicly, because of cybersquatters). > > > >I am of course ready, either to transfer files, scripts and management > >to a person or group of persons, choosen by us, or to keep caretaking > >it, at your choice. > > > >So, opinions? > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Ltru mailing list > >Ltru@ietf.org > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > >#-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University >#-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > >_______________________________________________ >Ietf-languages mailing list >Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 11:20:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWZwr-0000iC-Ik; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:20:29 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWZwp-0000gu-VU for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:20:27 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWZwf-0000lT-DT for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:20:27 -0400 Received: from [10.72.72.62] (snvvpn1-10-72-72-c62.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.72.62]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2SFK0vh034328 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:20:01 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=x7WoFp65+WHXHFtyha8Xcwk0rJcKk6vL8u3w9XOLQvEc/DzcSUKLLTxRKAX61PLw Message-ID: <460A879F.5040002@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:19:59 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... References: <001b01c77100$a0a7f910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <001b01c77100$a0a7f910$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Addison Phillips wrote: > >> I have prepared an updated editor's copy of 4646bis. I intend to >> submit it tomorrow, so comments now will make it into the document. >> >> Note that I have removed the changes I proposed making the file UTF-8. > > There's also no change to the wording in sections 2.2.2 and 3.4 > establishing a relationship between extlangs and ISO 639-3 encompassed > languages. We need to figure out which way we are going with that. > No changes, in part because this editor doesn't support making a change. And in part because no text has been suggested. This is something I would tend to count among the open issues. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 11:27:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWa3i-00015s-Qi; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:27:34 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWa3h-00011U-SC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:27:33 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWa3e-0001mR-JK for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:27:32 -0400 Received: from [10.72.72.62] (snvvpn1-10-72-72-c62.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.72.62]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2SFRH1C034756 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:27:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=R0wmM0Nejif28yXDME/t2Z/7LcXcwgigT8ZiQV6HGeLwzP2GGIhbQXLO+78oGOkS Message-ID: <460A8954.2090302@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:27:16 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script References: <008e01c76fb3$990a80e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <460931B0.69B2@xyzzy.claranet.de> <4609377F.1070101@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070328120423.077dc3b0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328120423.077dc3b0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > At 00:25 07/03/28, Addison Phillips wrote: > >> Then I propose we add this paragraph to section 3.1.9: > > +1, with a few tweaks. > >> -- >> Many language subtag records do not have a Suppress-Script field. The lack of a Suppress-Script might indicate that the language is customarily written in more than one script (or that the language is not customarily written at all). > > Please remove the parentheses, using a comma instead. Okay. > >> It might also mean that authoritative information was not available with the record was created and has not be registered yet. > > with -> when; Yes, thanks to both Martins. > also, change 'authoritative' to something else unless > that's the terminology we use for other registry-related stuff. > (to me, it suggests something more official than what's usually > required). > How about "sufficient" or "verifiable"? Although "authoritative" is what we mean. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 12:03:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWabw-0001D7-Ej; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:02:56 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWabv-0001D2-Rc for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:02:55 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.171]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWabr-0006ob-3f for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:02:55 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so238913ugd for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:02:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=dJDrBaRhQLXqrfm/epAa7XYrwu8+8SbjYLyrlAx/eQKsX12N3aU0Ole3Ia7UhxodEt5ZTw+zHgRWBclnIqqym7/WSijk7KFvDUvNkKv1eCqO5ZiRQwVAES99B1K4pVKYHy7bhQ1vJhs2NZvdjRmAgjMV4qJ+pWZn8pKfUuL4Lzc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Y5eWoX+R5tSQE7X9NhnXtqnAbFZJBaNxoVeHTTnMRvUmAXUCQCOtXRby6D3b1HghF0lXza1mSjOi9BL8wQg6Aq2hndAT07NxBWVaP82/aaNHys0ep4tRIVvlrRXdCKg+ViB6ouZgSccYBQgauiuaIzgs4S/mekHOkR4DfJzzZ58= Received: by 10.114.133.1 with SMTP id g1mr3794515wad.1175097768006; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703280902k9dfe775m5b097c5b88ba5048@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:02:47 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... In-Reply-To: <4609D237.7030602@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703271802k5b1a9c88sae30be4a552a2f7e@mail.gmail.com> <4609D237.7030602@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0e26a99253dfa38b X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0233280944==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0233280944== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_39419_14437892.1175097767829" ------=_Part_39419_14437892.1175097767829 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/27/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > Ur... we didn't require that variants have a Prefix. We required that > prefix references not be circular (your text, actually). Presence of a > prefix is still not required ("MAY") in the registry and still strongly > encouraged ("SHOULD") at registration time. Ok. I was misinterpreting part of the diff. variant1 = 9 (MUST have language *(needs 'language'* as a prefix) variant2 = 9 (MUST have language-variant1 *(needs 'language-variant1'* as a prefix) Open issues should really be tracked by the chairs. However, if you want > me to put in the list we corresponded about off-list a couple days ago, > I'll include it in the "changes" section before submission. Yes, let's do that. Addison > > Mark Davis wrote: > > I'd like to see an open issues section, that lists the items still to be > > resolved. Also, in requiring prefixes for variants -- is that safe with > > the current registry, or would it create grandfathered variants? > > > > Mark > > > > On 3/27/07, *Addison Phillips* > > wrote: > > > > All, > > > > I have prepared an updated editor's copy of 4646bis. I intend to > submit > > it tomorrow, so comments now will make it into the document. > > > > Note that I have removed the changes I proposed making the file > UTF-8. > > > > See: > > > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.html > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.xml > > > > Wdiff is at: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/23jv2b > > > > Addison > > -- > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > > > Internationalization is an architecture. > > It is not a feature. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mark > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > -- Mark ------=_Part_39419_14437892.1175097767829 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/27/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
Ur... we didn't require that variants have a Prefix. We required that
prefix references not be circular (your text, actually). Presence of a
prefix is still not required ("MAY") in the registry and still strongly
encouraged ("SHOULD") at registration time.

Ok. I was misinterpreting part of the diff.

   variant1      =  9 (MUST have language 
(needs 'language' as a prefix)
   variant2      =  9 (MUST have language-variant1 (needs 'language-variant1'
 as a prefix)


Open issues should really be tracked by the chairs. However, if you want
me to put in the list we corresponded about off-list a couple days ago,
I'll include it in the "changes" section before submission.

Yes, let's do that.

Addison

Mark Davis wrote:
> I'd like to see an open issues section, that lists the items still to be
> resolved. Also, in requiring prefixes for variants -- is that safe with
> the current registry, or would it create grandfathered variants?
>
> Mark
>
> On 3/27/07, *Addison Phillips* <addison@yahoo-inc.com
> <mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com >> wrote:
>
>     All,
>
>     I have prepared an updated editor's copy of 4646bis. I intend to submit
>     it tomorrow, so comments now will make it into the document.
>
>     Note that I have removed the changes I proposed making the file UTF-8.
>
>     See:
>
>       http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.html
>        http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt
>       http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.xml
>
>     Wdiff is at:
>
>       http://tinyurl.com/23jv2b
>
>     Addison
>     --
>     Addison Phillips
>     Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
>
>     Internationalization is an architecture.
>     It is not a feature.
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Ltru mailing list
>     Ltru@ietf.org <mailto:Ltru@ietf.org>
>     https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>     <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.



--
Mark ------=_Part_39419_14437892.1175097767829-- --===============0233280944== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0233280944==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 12:44:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbFg-00082p-QG; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:44:00 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbFd-00080w-BZ for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:43:58 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbFc-0006qT-0w for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:43:57 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2SGhZEr041023 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:43:38 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aWMGBviI/vfGQZKo3VOMgSbYocSLBs5xaevQ9Zbz6GbfmP3Op7NbhorWvIshd6Za Message-ID: <460A9B37.9090502@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:43:35 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703271802k5b1a9c88sae30be4a552a2f7e@mail.gmail.com> <4609D237.7030602@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703280902k9dfe775m5b097c5b88ba5048@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20703280902k9dfe775m5b097c5b88ba5048@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > > > On 3/27/07, *Addison Phillips* > wrote: > > Ur... we didn't require that variants have a Prefix. We required that > prefix references not be circular (your text, actually). Presence of a > prefix is still not required ("MAY") in the registry and still strongly > encouraged ("SHOULD") at registration time. > > > Ok. I was misinterpreting part of the diff. > > variant1 = 9 (MUST have language * > (needs 'language'* as a prefix) > variant2 = 9 (MUST have language-variant1 *(needs 'language-variant1' > * as a prefix) Actually, that normative language was inappropriate (it's both an example and not technically correct)... and the change relaxes, rather than restricts it (I replaced "MUST have" with "needs"). Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 12:55:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbQv-0001j1-Uz; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:55:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbQu-0001dD-FS for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:55:36 -0400 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.224]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbOJ-0000UJ-UF for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:52:58 -0400 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 71so2246836wri for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:52:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=W0nosMLjaw1SDpE5kZmDAGf3q2brYdej3gn/lwbcArZJHEqPPnWTdQfL773yxGmPL21ugIVjyit2gD8eY5tRIOAkarsexYRm+JuhxvVeUNEPRbsq2FgShchuaYGdEiRMxlLv1SJR6DIawyBL3roMUGY9Ax7Qvb7gtOIPI1uNCs0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=PAz8wN283hEbfCoyXO7IHMG8AgCajoY2CP3EpzIGntTx6YVXqzH6EohMFJiLt/0Mblo6MArL6TSq83eITX8pauvG7HWbZdNh2lbFQr1iCy1Qcm2/p8rnrYLyw/H2jcb+V/Kqx436gSG1kSQjCTqp3yo7jUnOjvzkr5Lw8lhlE5U= Received: by 10.115.93.16 with SMTP id v16mr3828935wal.1175100774962; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703280952i5fc84c2cj7dd234a5625f4d74@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:52:54 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... In-Reply-To: <460A9B37.9090502@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703271802k5b1a9c88sae30be4a552a2f7e@mail.gmail.com> <4609D237.7030602@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20703280902k9dfe775m5b097c5b88ba5048@mail.gmail.com> <460A9B37.9090502@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a61716fdd742ec1a X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0267723105==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0267723105== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_40937_22671369.1175100774923" ------=_Part_40937_22671369.1175100774923 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, I agree with your change; I was just saying that when I made my comments I had misinterpreted the change. On 3/28/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > > > Mark Davis wrote: > > > > > > On 3/27/07, *Addison Phillips* > > wrote: > > > > Ur... we didn't require that variants have a Prefix. We required > that > > prefix references not be circular (your text, actually). Presence of > a > > prefix is still not required ("MAY") in the registry and still > strongly > > encouraged ("SHOULD") at registration time. > > > > > > Ok. I was misinterpreting part of the diff. > > > > variant1 = 9 (MUST have language * > > (needs 'language'* as a prefix) > > variant2 = 9 (MUST have language-variant1 *(needs > 'language-variant1' > > * as a prefix) > > Actually, that normative language was inappropriate (it's both an > example and not technically correct)... and the change relaxes, rather > than restricts it (I replaced "MUST have" with "needs"). > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > -- Mark ------=_Part_40937_22671369.1175100774923 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, I agree with your change; I was just saying that when I made my comments I had misinterpreted the change.

On 3/28/07, Addison Phillips < addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:


Mark Davis wrote:
>
>
> On 3/27/07, *Addison Phillips* < addison@yahoo-inc.com
> <mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com>> wrote:
>
>     Ur... we didn't require that variants have a Prefix. We required that
>     prefix references not be circular (your text, actually). Presence of a
>     prefix is still not required ("MAY") in the registry and still strongly
>     encouraged ("SHOULD") at registration time.
>
>
> Ok. I was misinterpreting part of the diff.
>
>    variant1      =  9 (MUST have language *
> (needs 'language'* as a prefix)
>    variant2      =  9 (MUST have language-variant1 *(needs 'language-variant1'
> * as a prefix)

Actually, that normative language was inappropriate (it's both an
example and not technically correct)... and the change relaxes, rather
than restricts it (I replaced "MUST have" with "needs").

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.



--
Mark ------=_Part_40937_22671369.1175100774923-- --===============0267723105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0267723105==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 13:00:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbVJ-0003UG-Cu; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:00:09 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbVI-0003Th-9i for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:00:08 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbV7-0002iB-Qj for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:00:08 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbHM-0003gp-0s for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:45:44 +0200 Received: from d252026.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.26]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:45:44 +0200 Received: from nobody by d252026.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:45:44 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:35:09 +0200 Organization: Lines: 16 Message-ID: <460A993D.77C1@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <008e01c76fb3$990a80e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <460931B0.69B2@xyzzy.claranet.de> <4609377F.1070101@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070328120423.077dc3b0@localhost> <460A8954.2090302@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252026.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Suppress-Script X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: >> also, change 'authoritative' to something else unless >> that's the terminology we use for other registry-related stuff. >> (to me, it suggests something more official than what's usually >> required). > How about "sufficient" or "verifiable"? Although "authoritative" > is what we mean. Better "sufficient", IIRC we didn't really verify the CLDR source for what's now in the registry. A later version was found to be not directly usable for a bulk registry update on the review list. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 13:01:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbWe-0004M6-Ky; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:01:32 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbWe-0004Lx-3p for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:01:32 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbWc-00030V-Qj for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:01:32 -0400 Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbLW-0005Mg-D4 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:50:02 +0200 Received: from d252026.dialin.hansenet.de ([80.171.252.26]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:50:02 +0200 Received: from nobody by d252026.dialin.hansenet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:50:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:20:44 +0200 Organization: Lines: 26 Message-ID: <460A95DC.4C8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070328130410.056b4e30__23496.6057622389$1175062255$gmane$org@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: d252026.dialin.hansenet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: An official Web site for IETF Languages? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > [chair hat on] > As already said below, there are no official Web pages for > IETF standards/BCPs or IETF WGs. But there is no need for > a Web site to be official to be useful. Hi, I copy that question to the tools list, after all tools pages for WGs are only "semi-official". They've links to the jabber logs, charter, official drafts, related drafts, etc., so maybe it's possible to sneak in a link to related pages somewhere, if the Chair(s) support(s) it. For LTRU that could be Stephane's site, and for DKIM Dave's dkim.org. There are more examples. It would be also nice to have a list of all IANA expert review lists established by IETF RFCs, a subset of what's now the list of "other lists". With that list the IESG, IANA, and other folks would always know what _should_ be out there. Based on that not yet existing list of review lists the tools server could allow to add "related review lists" to WG pages, in the case of WG LTRU iana-languages. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 13:08:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbcs-0006r8-7m; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:07:58 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbcr-0006r1-EU for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:07:57 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbcp-0004FL-EF for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:07:57 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2SH7h6p034684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:07:43 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UdSIwEyJRIkW3V/Yj2FLmSWyRJ60HBZevKiVzfZhGxSP1MD6rLFWlcsJOxvpbwjg Message-ID: <460AA0DE.2090100@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:07:42 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: editor's copy updated... References: <00b001c76156$0be97740$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <45F02BC4.5060709@yahoo-inc.com> In-Reply-To: <45F02BC4.5060709@yahoo-inc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Note: I just incorporated a change to fix this item. The new text reads: -- or are the result of later registrations or additions to this document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of the language-extlang combination "zh-hak" when this document was adopted). -- Addison Phillips wrote: > Doug noticed: >> >> N.B. I note in passing, while reading Section 4.4, that the passage >> about mapping "zh-guoyu" to "zh-cmn" in "some future update of this >> document" needs to be revised, since that time is now; the Registry >> already has: >> >> Type: grandfathered >> Tag: zh-guoyu >> Description: Mandarin or Standard Chinese >> Added: 1999-12-18 >> Preferred-Value: zh-cmn >> Deprecated: 2005-07-15 >> > > Good catch. Thanks. > > Addison > -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 13:22:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbqj-00028j-SB; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:22:17 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbqh-00028M-IQ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:22:15 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWbqa-0006yI-DY; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:22:15 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2SHM24B036022 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:22:02 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:content-type; b=aC2RpmLFNOZUrqd+KtMKfdT9mg1hVbn1hq380ucUGllF7h1ytVX7NrlFK21ZqjKS Message-ID: <460AA438.3050003@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:22:00 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: internet-drafts@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------060606030204080100020604" X-Spam-Score: -14.6 (--------------) X-Scan-Signature: 86e74fe113e67b4b227224c7091afef9 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] submission: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060606030204080100020604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Editors, Please find attached draft-03 of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis. Best Regards, Addison (for the editors) -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. 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_______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --------------060606030204080100020604-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 14:31:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWcvJ-0000Aq-Kj; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:31:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWcvI-0000AT-9u; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:31:04 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWcvD-0001W8-2Q; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:31:04 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2SIUg83043285 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:30:42 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:content-type; b=H9qYSAPcvVaE9mZ125PMOFeIANk+efPYS7CgM+LJGgwdvcffNbMHKSroOVxovs2D Message-ID: <460AB456.3080508@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:30:46 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: internet-drafts@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090205090800090103050200" X-Spam-Score: -14.6 (--------------) X-Scan-Signature: b15663e2a60a36e2c6bcba0bfbe419d7 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] (re)submission: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090205090800090103050200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Editors, Please find attached the corrected draft-03 if draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis. I had neglected to update to xml2rfc-1.32 on the previous submission. Addison (for the editors) -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. 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from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdHI-0007nU-3O for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:53:50 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HWdH5-0005XQ-P7; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:53:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:53:35 -0400 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... Message-ID: <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > I have prepared an updated editor's copy of 4646bis. I intend to submit > it tomorrow, so comments now will make it into the document. [ISSUE #1] While I agree that the change to the ABNF for 'singleton' works, it is obfuscatory compared to: singleton = "a"-"w" | "y"-"z" | DIGIT The whole point of this change is to take advantage of the fact that case doesn't matter in ABNF definitions, so the above allows a, b, ..., w, y, z, A, B, ..., W, Y, Z, 0, ... 9, which is what we want. %-escapes for letters are useful only when being case-sensitive, and language tags are and always have been case-blind. [ISSUE #2] As the ABNF now stands, all language tags match the 'grandfathered' production except private-use tags. This does not seem to me to be a syntactically useful notion. I propose that 'grandfathered' be removed from the ABNF. It is referred to in two places: in the ABNF for 'Language-Tag' it can just be replaced by 'irregular', removing a useless ambiguity in parsers based on the ABNF; the sentence in 3.1.2 that refers to it does no useful work (obviously private-use tags won't appear in the registry) and should just be removed. [ISSUE #3] I have complained about the language in 2.2.2 before; it doesn't match the ISO 639 standards and as such is confusing. I propose that the first two sentences be replaced with this: Certain languages are defined by ISO 639-3 to be macrolanguages; that is, groups of very closely related languages which are treated as a single language in certain domains. In order to improve matching behavior, each language encompassed by a ISO 693-3 macrolanguage is represented in the IANA registry using an extended language subtag, provided that it is not already represented using a language subtag. And the final two (example) paragraphs as follows: For example, the 'gan' and 'cmn' subtags represent the languages Gan Chinese and Mandarin Chinese, which are both encompassed by the macrolanguage Chinese. Therefore, they both have the prefix "zh" in their registry records. Consequently, Gan Chinese is represented as "zh-gan" and Mandarin Chinese as "zh-cmn". The language tag "zh" may be still used to label a resource as some unspecified variety of Chinese (which in practice will usually be Mandarin, the dominant variety of Chinese, but may be another variety). If the ISO 639-3 Registration Authority were to decide that Gan Chinese is actually two different closely related languages, it might reclassify it as a macrolanguage and introduce two new code elements. In that case, these code elements would be added to the IANA registry as extended language subtags with prefixes of "zh-gan". No change would be made to the registry record for 'gan'. -- Babies are born as a result of the John Cowan mating between men and women, and most http://www.ccil.org/~cowan men and women enjoy mating. cowan@ccil.org --Isaac Asimov in Earth: Our Crowded Spaceship _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 15:09:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdW8-00081C-Ok; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:09:08 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdW7-0007yJ-1b for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:09:07 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdSx-0000Pl-T4 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:05:55 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2SJ4tDR046897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:04:55 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WBWXDix/uM8o/xrpM+M2Ldgz+Ns4Z7gGjGUzXYhikLjPFpCRjT0V/BoOo0WSHTZw Message-ID: <460ABC57.1090208@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:04:55 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > > [ISSUE #1] > > singleton = "a"-"w" | "y"-"z" | DIGIT > That's not legal ABNF. It's not the casing that's at fault. It's the use of a quoted string with a hyphen denoting a range of values. That's why the ABNF was reverted. > > [ISSUE #2] > > As the ABNF now stands, all language tags match the 'grandfathered' > production except private-use tags. This does not seem to me to be > a syntactically useful notion. I propose that 'grandfathered' be > removed from the ABNF. It is referred to in two places: in the ABNF > for 'Language-Tag' it can just be replaced by 'irregular', removing a > useless ambiguity in parsers based on the ABNF; the sentence in 3.1.2 > that refers to it does no useful work (obviously private-use tags won't > appear in the registry) and should just be removed. I'm okay with that. > > [ISSUE #3] > > I have complained about the language in 2.2.2 before; it doesn't match > the ISO 639 standards and as such is confusing. I propose that the > first two sentences be replaced with this: > I'm okay with your proposed text here. I'll make these last two changes in the new editor's copy of draft-04. Proposals for making the ABNF less icky looking are welcome. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 15:25:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdly-0003FN-Jj; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:25:30 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdlx-0003E2-NX for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:25:29 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.169]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdlv-0005mB-5P for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:25:29 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 72so294136ugd for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:25:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=RfQkdzssZxuFuWwqd2Z7OFSLs/qqdb3u+YNOKZgFhx8qf4D1emogRFEaO55PoCc1mlPw5vTM6dFabCrc5BE+TFDjl6bYuOJJv/8Tnu2moKJWGMF6taA33UN34j44V1J92zAW5zc3qRp/XlJxdE6DMVIO7/X8wHJRBs0s5Vwe15U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=nGBjkVduRaG3lrrIjwvelhFqRFznhy3bMHp3bSPEANBxFNhOo8zAGDPAsRYxAb28pco4wDTp4gZkOQO6SF0OV1QHW3sxZdXgD8uwDnBkWS5c2N67bxvjrLRBVRyWFQ3Ksr1SJRqh3xkpmOoaJWdRk5r9stpDMDQCQ+RuaCJeVFw= Received: by 10.114.197.1 with SMTP id u1mr3895319waf.1175109925154; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20703281225y518af4a9pd55c55fcbc1a8e4b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:25:25 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... In-Reply-To: <460ABC57.1090208@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> <460ABC57.1090208@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8a07fbcc795dc5b1 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1662563280==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1662563280== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_44388_7137554.1175109925000" ------=_Part_44388_7137554.1175109925000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm ok with all but the last part. I don't think it's productive to futz with the language around extlang until we have have settled the issue. Mark On 3/28/07, Addison Phillips wrote: > > John Cowan wrote: > > > > [ISSUE #1] > > > > singleton = "a"-"w" | "y"-"z" | DIGIT > > > > > That's not legal ABNF. It's not the casing that's at fault. It's the use > of a quoted string with a hyphen denoting a range of values. That's why > the ABNF was reverted. > > > > > [ISSUE #2] > > > > As the ABNF now stands, all language tags match the 'grandfathered' > > production except private-use tags. This does not seem to me to be > > a syntactically useful notion. I propose that 'grandfathered' be > > removed from the ABNF. It is referred to in two places: in the > ABNF > > for 'Language-Tag' it can just be replaced by 'irregular', removing a > > useless ambiguity in parsers based on the ABNF; the sentence in 3.1.2 > > that refers to it does no useful work (obviously private-use tags won't > > appear in the registry) and should just be removed. > > I'm okay with that. > > > > [ISSUE #3] > > > > I have complained about the language in 2.2.2 before; it doesn't match > > the ISO 639 standards and as such is confusing. I propose that the > > first two sentences be replaced with this: > > > > I'm okay with your proposed text here. > > I'll make these last two changes in the new editor's copy of draft-04. > Proposals for making the ABNF less icky looking are welcome. > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_44388_7137554.1175109925000 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm ok with all but the last part. I don't think it's productive to futz with the language around extlang until we have have settled the issue.

Mark

On 3/28/07, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
John Cowan wrote:
>
> [ISSUE #1]
>
>       singleton = "a"-"w" | "y"-"z" | DIGIT
>


That's not legal ABNF. It's not the casing that's at fault. It's the use
of a quoted string with a hyphen denoting a range of values. That's why
the ABNF was reverted.

>
> [ISSUE #2]
>
> As the ABNF now stands, all language tags match the 'grandfathered'
> production except private-use tags.  This does not seem to me to be
> a syntactically useful notion.        I propose that 'grandfathered' be
> removed from the ABNF.        It is referred to in two places: in the ABNF
> for 'Language-Tag' it can just be replaced by 'irregular', removing a
> useless ambiguity in parsers based on the ABNF; the sentence in 3.1.2
> that refers to it does no useful work (obviously private-use tags won't
> appear in the registry) and should just be removed.

I'm okay with that.
>
> [ISSUE #3]
>
> I have complained about the language in 2.2.2 before; it doesn't match
> the ISO 639 standards and as such is confusing.  I propose that the
> first two sentences be replaced with this:
>

I'm okay with your proposed text here.

I'll make these last two changes in the new editor's copy of draft-04.
Proposals for making the ABNF less icky looking are welcome.

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_44388_7137554.1175109925000-- --===============1662563280== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1662563280==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 17:43:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWfvA-0001PP-Ja; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:43:08 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWfv8-0001PE-4c for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:43:06 -0400 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWfv4-0001i7-Nf for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:43:06 -0400 Received: from [172.21.229.114] (wlanvpn-dfg-229-114.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.229.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2SLgoN2070835 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:42:50 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=A+dErA4xwkkKFOXVhLsRbLy6+qapnrRkpfZxKuXtlvVr741bhJ0qlG1S/9wX212K Message-ID: <460AE158.6000005@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:42:48 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG milestones References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070322183501.0a15c6d0@localhost> <30b660a20703231259t2f4a67a1v8bbfb8e3ac9600c4@mail.gmail.com> <460437AE.7070605@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070327171313.06dd34c0@localhost> <46092DF3.6040407@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20070328125511.056b2d60@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328125511.056b2d60@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: Doug Ewell , 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > [Addison - I'm not sure why your message was sent privately. > If that was a finger slip, please send this message to the list.] I'm not sure why the reply was offlist... no reason for it. > > My understanding was that there were some items in the ISO 639-3 > cleanup queue that were (potentially at least) fixing things > in ways that we explicitly prohibited. That is why I was assuming > a dependency. I agree, for registry-update. However, if the "questionable items" were identified, they could just be omitted from registry-update and separately registered later. As I said, what's important (for 4646bis) are the rules for inclusion, not the substance of the subtags. I tend to agree that the final version of registry-update should be held for 639-3 to complete. All of which is apropos of nothing. Let's just work through the remaining issues. Addison > > Doug, Peter, can you confirm or deny this? > > Regards, Martin. > > At 23:45 07/03/27, Addison Phillips wrote: >> RFC 4646bis can be completed before the last jot of ISO 639-3's work is complete. What's important are the rules we lay down, not the complete list of items in the registry. Further, 4645bis (the registry update) doesn't have to be dependent either. As I elaborated earlier, the majority of the update can go in and any questionable items can have a separate process for inclusion. >> >> Ideally, of course, we would hold the registry update for ISO 639-3 to complete. But I think we can reasonably finish and do last calls, etc., of 4646bis without waiting for them. >> >> Addison >> >> Martin Duerst wrote: >>> At 05:25 07/03/24, Addison Phillips wrote: >>>> I don't think that we're *that* dependent on external events. >>> Hello Addison - Could you elaborate on that? Thanks, Martin. >>> >>> #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University >>> #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp >>> >> -- >> Addison Phillips >> Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. >> >> Internationalization is an architecture. >> It is not a feature. > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 22:36:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWkVI-0001QE-Jl; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:36:44 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWcdt-00058w-2X for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:13:05 -0400 Received: from [2001:503:c779:1a::9c9a:108a] (helo=ns1.neustar.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWcds-0006Pu-SX for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:13:05 -0400 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13E526EB9; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:13:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprstage1) by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWcds-0006AL-LJ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:13:04 -0400 Received: from 10.31.31.78 (SquirrelMail authenticated user ids) by stiedprstage1 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4628.10.31.31.78.1175105584.squirrel@stiedprstage1> In-Reply-To: <460AA438.3050003@yahoo-inc.com> References: <460AA438.3050003@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:13:04 -0400 (EDT) From: ids@ietf.org To: "Addison Phillips" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:36:43 -0400 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] Re: submission: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Please note the wording changes. Please correct and resubmit. The Secretariat CANNOT process your Internet-Draft submission due to following reason(s): * All Internet-Drafts must include the following statement: Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007). * All Internet-Drafts must include the following statement near the end o= f the document.: This document and the information contained herein are provided on an "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY, THE IETF TRUST AND THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. > Dear Editors, > > Please find attached draft-03 of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis. > > Best Regards, > > Addison (for the editors) > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 22:41:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWkZw-0004w6-KO; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:41:32 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWkZv-0004w1-36 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:41:31 -0400 Received: from mailb.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWkZq-0000Vr-FF for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:41:30 -0400 Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.113) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:41:25 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.113]) with mapi; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:41:25 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: CE Whitehead , "duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp" , "bortzmeyer@nic.fr" , "ltru@ietf.org" , "ietf-languages@iana.org" Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:41:19 -0700 Subject: RE: [Ltru] [Marketing] An official Web site for IETF Languages? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [Marketing] An official Web site for IETF Languages? Thread-Index: AcdxSLML+vFjebTxRVK6FU4Dq+hcjAAYu3dg Message-ID: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328130410.056b4e30@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8de5f93cb2b4e3bee75302e9eacc33db Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Please do not use this list to design colour schemes. Thanks Peter -----Original Message----- From: CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 7:52 AM To: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp; bortzmeyer@nic.fr; ltru@ietf.org; ietf-language= s@iana.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] [Marketing] An official Web site for IETF Languages? > >Apart from the glaring color scheme, I think this site is quite useful. Hi, I think we can select a new color scheme as a group if that's what people want (I'm pretty color-tolerant, but it is maybe a little bright, oh well; the w3c has test pages that mix red and green horribly): There's a color coder and a list of browser-compatible colors (more colors are browser-compatible today) at the following url: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Guide/Style.html#hexcolors >If I have some info to contribute, I'll gladly do so. Who updates the ltru pages (http://ltru.generic-nic.net/registries.html and the links there) when a new language/variant/etc. subtag is registered? Someone needs to keep those up. (Like I said, I cannot commit more than a month or so down the road; then I do not know where I will be . . . what computer access I will have) >I also think that you have done a great job, and would be extremely >glad if you could continue to keep taking care of it, at this or >at a new location (and either way, get rid of the "Currently, it is >just a draft to trigger discussions.") > >[chair hat on] >As already said below, there are no official Web pages for >IETF standards/BCPs or IETF WGs. But there is no need for >a Web site to be official to be useful. > >Regards, Martin. > >At 05:32 07/03/28, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > >It is now a few months since I've set up: > > > >http://ltru.generic-nic.net/ > > > >The intent was to prototype a Web site for the "language tag > >community", gathering all that was necessary for ordinary users, tags > >submitters, software developers, etc. > > > >I believe it could be the time to move from an experiment to a more > >"official" Web page (yes, I know we are not a fomal organization and > >we cannot have anything really official; but you get the idea). > > > >I suggest that we discuss a common Web site with these items, under a > >domain name to reserve (I have a idea, and the domain is free, but I > >prefer not to mention it publicly, because of cybersquatters). > > > >I am of course ready, either to transfer files, scripts and management > >to a person or group of persons, choosen by us, or to keep caretaking > >it, at your choice. > > > >So, opinions? > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Ltru mailing list > >Ltru@ietf.org > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > >#-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University >#-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > >_______________________________________________ >Ietf-languages mailing list >Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=3Dflexicon_hmemailtagline= march07 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 00:06:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWltB-00084c-3l; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:05:29 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWlt8-00083E-Kx for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:05:26 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWlt4-0001YA-T0 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:05:26 -0400 Received: from fe-amer-04.sun.com ([192.18.108.178]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l2T45Mxr024132 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 04:05:22 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFN00401CHOWL00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Chris.Newman@Sun.COM) for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:05:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dhcp-blr03-251-131.india.sun.com ([129.158.251.131]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFN00FJGCOTG120@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:05:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:35:17 +0530 From: Chris Newman Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: An official Web site for IETF Languages? In-reply-to: <460A95DC.4C8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> To: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org Message-id: <1E33069B13A9916F8B4058BB@dhcp-blr03-251-131.india.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline References: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> <460A95DC.4C8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This has been done before. See the WG page for lemonade: which points to an "Additional LEMONADE Web Page". If the WG chair asks the area advisor (that's now me for LTRU) to add such a link, I'll put in a ticket with the secretariat to do that. On the tools front, it would be nice if updates to the charter page (with the exception of the charter text itself which requires full IESG approval) that are within the purview of the area directors / WG chairs could be made directly. - Chris Frank Ellermann wrote on 3/28/07 18:20 +0200: > Martin Duerst wrote: > >> [chair hat on] >> As already said below, there are no official Web pages for >> IETF standards/BCPs or IETF WGs. But there is no need for >> a Web site to be official to be useful. > > Hi, I copy that question to the tools list, after all tools > pages for WGs are only "semi-official". They've links to > the jabber logs, charter, official drafts, related drafts, > etc., so maybe it's possible to sneak in a link to related > pages somewhere, if the Chair(s) support(s) it. > > For LTRU that could be Stephane's site, and for DKIM Dave's > dkim.org. There are more examples. > > It would be also nice to have a list of all IANA expert > review lists established by IETF RFCs, a subset of what's > now the list of "other lists". With that list the IESG, > IANA, and other folks would always know what _should_ be > out there. Based on that not yet existing list of review > lists the tools server could allow to add "related review > lists" to WG pages, in the case of WG LTRU iana-languages. > > Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 00:17:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWm3j-0005ro-Vg; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:16:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWm3i-0005rf-P9 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:16:22 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWm3h-0004Ij-5c for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:16:22 -0400 Received: from fe-amer-04.sun.com ([192.18.108.178]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l2T4GKJc028732 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 04:16:20 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFN00601CXHKC00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Chris.Newman@Sun.COM) for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:16:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dhcp-blr03-251-131.india.sun.com ([129.158.251.131]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFN00FMSD73G120@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:16:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:46:15 +0530 From: Chris Newman Subject: list of IANA expert review lists (was Re: [Ltru] Re: An official Web site ...) In-reply-to: <460A95DC.4C8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> To: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline References: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> <460A95DC.4C8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote on 3/28/07 18:20 +0200: > It would be also nice to have a list of all IANA expert > review lists established by IETF RFCs, a subset of what's > now the list of "other lists". With that list the IESG, > IANA, and other folks would always know what _should_ be > out there. This is a good suggestion. As incoming Apps AD the list of apps-related IANA review lists is something I just have to learn from my predecessor or co-AD. So collecting that information in one place would smooth the AD transition in addition to being generally useful for the community. Thanks, - Chris _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 03:06:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWoid-0001rb-Pq; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:06:47 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWoib-0001rH-85 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:06:45 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWoiZ-0005Zi-VC for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:06:45 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 7404A1C00E3; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:06:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E66A1C00E2; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:06:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612FD58ED21; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:06:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:06:30 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: CE Whitehead Message-ID: <20070329070630.GA16963@nic.fr> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20070328130410.056b4e30@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: [Marketing] An official Web site for IETF Languages? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:51:33AM -0400, CE Whitehead wrote a message of 77 lines which said: > Who updates the ltru pages > (http://ltru.generic-nic.net/registries.html and the links there) > when a new language/variant/etc. subtag is registered? It is done automatically, of course. I would be glad to ship the script(s) to a new maintainer but, in the mean time, I'm the one who reads the error messages, if something goes wrong. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 03:32:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWp7f-00064r-4X; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:32:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWp7e-00064l-L2 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:32:38 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWp7d-0002vF-Cp for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:32:38 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 0DB9B1C00E2; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:32:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094821C009F; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:32:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01AC58ED21; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:32:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:32:35 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: John Cowan Message-ID: <20070329073235.GA22222@nic.fr> References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] Re: Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 02:53:35PM -0400, John Cowan wrote a message of 74 lines which said: > I propose that 'grandfathered' be removed from the ABNF. Interesting idea. "grandfathered" is an useful concept but it is a semantic one, not a syntactic one (some grandfathered tags are regular, some are not). I would say +1 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 03:39:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWpEK-00034q-H7; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:39:32 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWpEJ-00034l-RJ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:39:31 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWpEI-00040G-Iq for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:39:31 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 20D701C00DE for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:39:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA4D1C009F for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:39:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1112658ED21 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:39:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:39:30 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: ltru@lists.ietf.org Message-ID: <20070329073930.GA22877@nic.fr> References: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> <460A95DC.4C8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <1E33069B13A9916F8B4058BB@dhcp-blr03-251-131.india.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1E33069B13A9916F8B4058BB@dhcp-blr03-251-131.india.sun.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: An official Web site for IETF Languages? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 09:35:17AM +0530, Chris Newman wrote a message of 59 lines which said: > If the WG chair asks the area advisor (that's now me for LTRU) to > add such a link, I'll put in a ticket with the secretariat to do > that. I intend to buy the domain name (with me as the holder, since it does not seem there is an existing structure to be regsitered as the holder but advices are welcome) and then to ask this link. Speak before, if you disagree. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 10:50:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWvxg-0002Cg-Qf; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:50:48 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWvxR-0001wO-PU; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:50:33 -0400 Received: from ns4.neustar.com ([156.154.24.139]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWvxQ-0004Lt-DW; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:50:33 -0400 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57FBE2ACAD; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HWvww-0004yH-3y; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:50:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt Pages : 66 Date : 2007-3-29 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-29082052.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-29082052.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 10:59:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWw5i-0003Zk-FO; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:59:06 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWw5h-0003Ze-Qk for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:59:05 -0400 Received: from bay0-omc2-s20.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.156]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWw5d-0001xJ-FW for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:59:05 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.169.15]) by bay0-omc2-s20.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:59:00 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:59:01 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.169.200 by by114fd.bay114.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:58:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.133.185.129] X-Originating-Email: [cewcathar@hotmail.com] X-Sender: cewcathar@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <20070329070630.GA16963@nic.fr> From: "CE Whitehead" To: bortzmeyer@nic.fr Bcc: Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:58:56 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2007 14:59:01.0006 (UTC) FILETIME=[C8F892E0:01C77212] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: [Marketing] An official Web site for IETF Languages? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > >On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:51:33AM -0400, > CE Whitehead wrote > a message of 77 lines which said: > > > Who updates the ltru pages > > (http://ltru.generic-nic.net/registries.html and the links there) > > when a new language/variant/etc. subtag is registered? > >It is done automatically, of course. I would be glad to ship the >script(s) to a new maintainer but, in the mean time, I'm the one who >reads the error messages, if something goes wrong. I have limited experience deciphering javascript error messages and would be only a limited help with these (a second reader); I could correct xml or xhtml I guess; (but what I do know about programming would probably not save me with sql or C++ --I used to know MS Basic pretty well; that's it, also Pascal; a little C) Sorry. (Wish I could help more with this. I'd be happy to try to learn but think I would just waste your time???) For the color background (see http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Guide/Style.html#hexcolors ) I would suggest something paler; anything dark blurs dark font and links (unless you change the color of the font and links--also an option--for example, you could make the pages really dark mauve (#330033), the text white, and the links really light (link #ccccff; vlink #ffff99 alink #ff99cc or vice versa; hover #ffcccc or something siimlar as far as set up's go I really do not know) otherwise a lighter page background, any color (if people do not mind pink and mauve, #cccc99 [this shade is almost a beige color], #ffcccc and #ffccff are not too bad for a background; otherwise something else--maybe beige, ffffcc; or ?? I'll leave it to the group to decide if they want a change, and to pick the color scheme) --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ Its tax season, make sure to follow these few simple tips http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMMartagline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 14:20:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWzEQ-0005fP-51; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:20:18 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWzEO-0005ed-DQ for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:20:16 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWzEM-0003rb-VZ for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:20:16 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2TIJdTY034888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:19:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=k5altFQqf/zRnOzFfLV6AJMjvpTpdCqXGNMVVt4baKOpqN/QsZXeJjH0VY6tYwl2 Message-ID: <460C033A.4000709@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:19:38 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: a8a20a483a84f747e56475e290ee868e Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > > [ISSUE #2] > > As the ABNF now stands, all language tags match the 'grandfathered' > production except private-use tags. This does not seem to me to be > a syntactically useful notion. I propose that 'grandfathered' be > removed from the ABNF. It is referred to in two places: in the ABNF > for 'Language-Tag' it can just be replaced by 'irregular', removing a > useless ambiguity in parsers based on the ABNF; the sentence in 3.1.2 > that refers to it does no useful work (obviously private-use tags won't > appear in the registry) and should just be removed. I have changed the editor's copy. A notable addition to this comment: I edited the existing entry about ABNF changes in the "changes" section to reflect the edits. > > [ISSUE #3] Notwithstanding Mark's desire not to muck around with the text when it's been proposed we scrap it, I've incorporated these changes as shown below (since it is easier to track it this way). > > I have complained about the language in 2.2.2 before; it doesn't match > the ISO 639 standards and as such is confusing. I propose that the > first two sentences be replaced with this: > > Certain languages are defined by ISO 639-3 to be macrolanguages; > that is, groups of very closely related languages which are > treated as a single language in certain domains. In order to > improve matching behavior, each language encompassed by a ISO > 693-3 macrolanguage is represented in the IANA registry using > an extended language subtag, provided that it is not already > represented using a language subtag. For consistency with other subsections as well as my understanding of the situation, I edited this text when I inserted it to read: Extended language subtags are used to identify languages that are encompassed by a "macrolanguage". ISO 639-3 defines certain languages to be "macrolanguages"; that is, they are groups of very closely related languages which are treated as a single language in certain contexts. In order to improve matching behavior and tagging consistency, each language encompassed by a ISO 693-3 macrolanguage is represented in the IANA registry using an extended language subtag, provided that it is not already represented using a language subtag. The following rules apply to the extended language subtags: > > And the final two (example) paragraphs as follows: > > For example, the 'gan' and 'cmn' subtags represent the languages > Gan Chinese and Mandarin Chinese, which are both encompassed by > the macrolanguage Chinese. Therefore, they both have the prefix > "zh" in their registry records. Consequently, Gan Chinese > is represented as "zh-gan" and Mandarin Chinese as "zh-cmn". > The language tag "zh" may be still used to label a resource > as some unspecified variety of Chinese (which in practice will > usually be Mandarin, the dominant variety of Chinese, but may > be another variety). This was modified slightly, mostly to canonicalize tags ("") vs. subtags (''): For example, the 'gan' and 'cmn' subtags represent the languages Gan Chinese and Mandarin Chinese. Each is encompassed by the macrolanguage 'zh' (Chinese). Therefore, they both have the prefix "zh" in their registry records. Consequently, Gan Chinese is represented as "zh-gan" and Mandarin Chinese as "zh-cmn". The language subtag 'zh' may be still used to label a resource as some unspecified variety of Chinese (which in practice will usually be Mandarin, the dominant variety of Chinese, but may be another variety). > > If the ISO 639-3 Registration Authority were to decide that Gan > Chinese is actually two different closely related languages, > it might reclassify it as a macrolanguage and introduce two new > code elements. In that case, these code elements would > be added to the IANA registry as extended language subtags with > prefixes of "zh-gan". No change would be made to the registry > record for 'gan'. > And this para was modified, mostly to keep the emphasis on the suppositional aspect of the example: Now suppose that, in the future, the ISO 639-3 Registration Authority were to decide that Gan Chinese is actually two different closely related languages: it might reclassify 'gan' as a macrolanguage and introduce two new code elements. In that case, these code elements would be added to the IANA registry as extended language subtags with prefixes of "zh-gan". No change would be made to the registry record for 'gan'. I have not yet posted the new editor's copy of draft-04 online yet. -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 14:55:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWzme-0005Ys-Ky; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:55:40 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWzmc-0005Yk-Ne for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:55:38 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWzmZ-0004qj-FY for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:55:38 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HWzmU-0000yv-R0; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:55:30 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:55:30 -0400 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... Message-ID: <20070329185530.GG28044@mercury.ccil.org> References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> <460C033A.4000709@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <460C033A.4000709@yahoo-inc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > > The language tag "zh" may be still used to label a resource > > as some unspecified variety of Chinese (which in practice will > > usually be Mandarin, the dominant variety of Chinese, but may > > be another variety). > > The language subtag 'zh' may be still used to label a resource as > some unspecified variety of Chinese (which in practice will usually be > Mandarin, the dominant variety of Chinese, but may be another variety). This change hides my point, which is that "zh" (the tag) is still fully usable as a tag, despite the introduction of more specific tags "zh-cmn", "zh-gan", etc. -- De plichten van een docent zijn divers, John Cowan die van het gehoor ook. cowan@ccil.org --Edsger Dijkstra http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 15:16:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX06h-0005kX-9N; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:16:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX06f-0005kK-Uy for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:16:21 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX06e-0001Fo-Kl for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:16:21 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2TJG4sV040615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:16:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VhwVcM46xBvFxBydbL36Dq2jjA/rViXwLy0R5F6ZtVqSaMzzrw/ELc8A8GL43xfY Message-ID: <460C1074.7090905@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:16:04 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> <460C033A.4000709@yahoo-inc.com> <20070329185530.GG28044@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070329185530.GG28044@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: >>> The language tag "zh" may be still used to label a resource >>> as some unspecified variety of Chinese (which in practice will >>> usually be Mandarin, the dominant variety of Chinese, but may >>> be another variety). >> The language subtag 'zh' may be still used to label a resource as >> some unspecified variety of Chinese (which in practice will usually be >> Mandarin, the dominant variety of Chinese, but may be another variety). > > This change hides my point, which is that "zh" (the tag) is still fully > usable as a tag, despite the introduction of more specific tags > "zh-cmn", "zh-gan", etc. > Your point wasn't clear to me, hence my edit. Perhaps a concrete example would help? -- The language subtag 'zh' may be still used on its own in a tag to label a resource as some unspecified variety of Chinese. For example, the tag "zh-Hans" remains a valid way to represent Chinese written in the Simplified script. (In practice 'zh' will usually be Mandarin, the dominant variety of Chinese, but it may represent some other variety). -- Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 15:19:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX09b-0006nK-6V; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:19:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX09a-0006lA-B0 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:19:22 -0400 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX09Z-0001ry-1d for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:19:22 -0400 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HX09X-0002ia-0b; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:19:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:19:19 -0400 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Updated editor's copy, ready for submission... Message-ID: <20070329191918.GI28044@mercury.ccil.org> References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> <460C033A.4000709@yahoo-inc.com> <20070329185530.GG28044@mercury.ccil.org> <460C1074.7090905@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <460C1074.7090905@yahoo-inc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > The language subtag 'zh' may be still used on its own in a tag to label > a resource as some unspecified variety of Chinese. For example, the tag > "zh-Hans" remains a valid way to represent Chinese written in the > Simplified script. (In practice 'zh' will usually be Mandarin, the > dominant variety of Chinese, but it may represent some other variety). How about s/on its own/without an extended language subtag/? That motivates your example better. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan This great college [Trinity], of this ancient university [Cambridge], has seen some strange sights. It has seen Wordsworth drunk and Porson sober. And here am I, a better poet than Porson, and a better scholar than Wordsworth, somewhere betwixt and between. --A.E. Housman _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 16:38:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX1OO-0003Xf-Dc; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:38:44 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX1ON-0003Xa-Lo for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:38:43 -0400 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX1O1-00064y-IU for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:38:43 -0400 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.6/y.rout) with ESMTP id l2TKbqvi047799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:37:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LoC8Zuc/Fm9ppEML66Vku39pRpwtZu9myvOxVxw8A89ve4zQAH0nZpalGR0EADvT Message-ID: <460C23A0.7050507@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:37:52 -0700 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-04 edits... References: <46094912.3070606@yahoo-inc.com> <20070328185335.GP5493@mercury.ccil.org> <460C033A.4000709@yahoo-inc.com> <20070329185530.GG28044@mercury.ccil.org> <460C1074.7090905@yahoo-inc.com> <20070329191918.GI28044@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20070329191918.GI28044@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Changed... A draft-04 is now posted as the editor's copy on my personal website: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-04.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-04.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-04.xml Addison John Cowan wrote: > Addison Phillips scripsit: > >> The language subtag 'zh' may be still used on its own in a tag to label >> a resource as some unspecified variety of Chinese. For example, the tag >> "zh-Hans" remains a valid way to represent Chinese written in the >> Simplified script. (In practice 'zh' will usually be Mandarin, the >> dominant variety of Chinese, but it may represent some other variety). > > How about s/on its own/without an extended language subtag/? > > That motivates your example better. > -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 18:15:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX2uJ-0006Qj-60; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:15:47 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX2uH-0006Qd-TW for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:15:45 -0400 Received: from netc-relay-2m.netcourrier.com ([194.158.104.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX2uD-0006XK-Ks for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:15:45 -0400 Received: from netcourrier.com (netcourrier-4m.netcourrier.com [194.158.104.104]) by netc-relay-2m.netcourrier.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 742EB268F8 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 00:15:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [85.69.79.250] by netcourrier-4m.netcourrier.com via html interface From: Nicolas Krebs To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 00:15:06 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 5 X-Mailer: Medianet/v2.0 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org ----Message d'origine---- >To: i-d-announce=40ietf.org >From: Internet-Drafts=40ietf.org >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:50:02 -0400 >CC: ltru=40ietf.org >Subject: =5BLtru=5D I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt = > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = >directories. >This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Gro= up of the IETF. > > Title : Tags for Identifying Languages > Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis > Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-03.txt > Pages : 66 > Date : 2007-3-29 I see =22hy-Latn-IT-arevela (Eastern Armenian written in Latin script, as used in Italy)=22 Should't it be Western Armenian ? = (=22hy-Latn-IT-arevmda (Western Armenian written in Latin script, as=22) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 29 23:37:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX7vA-0007cE-D4; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:37:00 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWttW-0000x7-Nw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:38:22 -0400 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se ([193.180.251.60]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWttP-0003rK-4Z for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:38:22 -0400 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 8FCE620BEC; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:38:12 +0200 (CEST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3c-a9cedbb0000073d5-9a-460bb3340b1d Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.121]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 84CAB20B0C; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:38:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.170]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:38:12 +0200 Received: from [147.214.237.61] ([147.214.237.61]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:38:11 +0200 Message-ID: <460BB334.4040006@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:38:12 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann References: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070328130410.056b4e30__23496.6057622389$1175062255$gmane$org@localhost> <460A95DC.4C8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <460A95DC.4C8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2007 12:38:11.0679 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CC796F0:01C771FF] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:36:59 -0400 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: An official Web site for IETF Languages? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi Frank, Martin, On 2007-03-28 18:20 Frank Ellermann said the following: > Martin Duerst wrote: > >> [chair hat on] >> As already said below, there are no official Web pages for >> IETF standards/BCPs or IETF WGs. But there is no need for >> a Web site to be official to be useful. > > Hi, I copy that question to the tools list, after all tools > pages for WGs are only "semi-official". They've links to > the jabber logs, charter, official drafts, related drafts, > etc., so maybe it's possible to sneak in a link to related > pages somewhere, if the Chair(s) support(s) it. Sure. I just have to work out a good way of doing it so that it becomes self-service for the chairs, rather than them having to ask me to do it -- that makes me a bottleneck. > For LTRU that could be Stephane's site, and for DKIM Dave's > dkim.org. There are more examples. > > It would be also nice to have a list of all IANA expert > review lists established by IETF RFCs, a subset of what's > now the list of "other lists". With that list the IESG, > IANA, and other folks would always know what _should_ be > out there. Based on that not yet existing list of review > lists the tools server could allow to add "related review > lists" to WG pages, in the case of WG LTRU iana-languages. Right, that seems useful and reasonable. Henrik _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 30 08:26:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXGBM-000665-Qn; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:26:16 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXGBK-0005xh-Nz; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:26:14 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXGBF-00014r-06; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:26:14 -0400 Received: from fe-amer-04.sun.com ([192.18.108.178]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l2UCQ8I5005535; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:26:08 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFP00E01UHAJZ00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Chris.Newman@Sun.COM); Fri, 30 Mar 2007 06:26:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dhcp-blr03-251-131.india.sun.com ([129.158.250.77]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFP00K20UJE3P40@mail-amer.sun.com>; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 06:26:08 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:56:01 +0530 From: Chris Newman Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: An official Web site for IETF Languages? In-reply-to: <20070329090425.973171537E@smtp7-g19.free.fr> To: r&d afrac Message-id: <274E48AD7DA663CD9467CEAF@dhcp-blr03-250-181.india.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline References: <20070327203242.GA12587@sources.org> <460A95DC.4C8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <1E33069B13A9916F8B4058BB@dhcp-blr03-251-131.india.sun.com> <20070329073930.GA22877@nic.fr> <20070329090425.973171537E@smtp7-g19.free.fr> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: LTRU Working Group , iesg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have read your concerns. If the WG has rough consensus to have a non-normative web page with additional information about the WG linked from the WG IETF web page, that is within currently permitted process. It is the WG chair's responsibility to gauge rough consensus of the WG. If your concerns have technical merit, I am sure others will echo your concerns so the chair can correctly gauge rough consensus on the issue. In the event you feel the chair has failed to gauge rough consensus correctly you may use the standard IETF appeals process. It is not helpful to contact the IESG absent sufficient evidence to back your claim. In the future, I recommend you gather supporting messages from active WG participants prior to contacting the IESG. - Chris Newman Applications Co-Area Director _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 30 11:27:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXJ00-0002yN-06; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:26:44 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXIzx-0002xN-HQ for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:26:42 -0400 Received: from outbound-blu.frontbridge.com ([65.55.251.16] helo=outbound3-blu-R.bigfish.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXIzw-0001kI-6Q for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:26:41 -0400 Received: from outbound3-blu.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound3-blu-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C387B1F5F for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:26:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail15-blu-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.1.252.3]) by outbound3-blu.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECB984004F for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:26:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail15-blu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail15-blu-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B53F1BB8061 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:26:38 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: P Received: by mail15-blu (MessageSwitch) id 1175268397539049_17827; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:26:37 +0000 (UCT) Received: from lonsmime02.rit.reuters.com (lonsmimeo.rit.reuters.com [192.165.213.23]) by mail15-blu.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2E2CC806D for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:26:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from eupig2 (unverified [129.1.30.40]) by lonsmime02.rit.reuters.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.19) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:26:25 +0000 Received: from dtcsmsxb01.emea.ime.reuters.com ([10.5.150.13]) by eupig2.dtc.lon.ime.reuters.com (PMDF V6.2-1x10 #31408) with ESMTP id <0JFQ0006O2W8MO@eupig2.dtc.lon.ime.reuters.com>; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:26:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LONSMSXM06.emea.ime.reuters.com ([10.14.113.22]) by dtcsmsxb01.emea.ime.reuters.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC (6.0.3790.0); Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:26:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:26:32 +0100 From: Misha Wolf To: LTRU Working Group Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Updating http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/ Thread-Index: Acdy38ulmsfcjuuGR2OvSZ9fEEIkaA== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2007 15:26:32.0780 (UTC) FILETIME=[CBEB08C0:01C772DF] X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Updating http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/ X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi Addison, = This article seems to be out-of-date as it repeatedly = mentions RFC 3066 and makes no reference to RFCs 4646 = and 4647. Any chance of updating it? = Thanks, Misha = This email was sent to you by Reuters, the global news and information comp= any. = To find out more about Reuters visit www.about.reuters.com Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, = except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Reuters= Limited. Reuters Limited is part of the Reuters Group of companies, of which Reuters= Group PLC is the ultimate parent company. Reuters Group PLC - Registered office address: The Reuters Building, South = Colonnade, Canary Wharf, London E14 5EP, United Kingdom Registered No: 3296375 Registered in England and Wales _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 30 11:32:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXJ5T-0000I4-V1; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:32:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXJ5S-0000Hw-Uy for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:32:23 -0400 Received: from homer.w3.org ([128.30.52.30]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXJ5R-0000OO-Mw for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:32:22 -0400 Received: from rishida (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABB84EFDD; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:32:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Richard Ishida" To: "'Misha Wolf'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:32:47 +0100 Message-ID: <017801c772e0$abca4870$6501a8c0@rishida> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acdy38ulmsfcjuuGR2OvSZ9fEEIkaAAALhcA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] RE: Updating http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/ X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Misha, I assume that you're aware of http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ which to some extent eclipses that article. RI ============ Richard Ishida Internationalization Lead W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ http://www.w3.org/International/ http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Misha Wolf [mailto:Misha.Wolf@reuters.com] > Sent: 30 March 2007 16:27 > To: LTRU Working Group > Cc: ishida@w3.org > Subject: Updating http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/ > > Hi Addison, > > This article seems to be out-of-date as it repeatedly > mentions RFC 3066 and makes no reference to RFCs 4646 and > 4647. Any chance of updating it? > > Thanks, > Misha > > > This email was sent to you by Reuters, the global news and > information company. > To find out more about Reuters visit www.about.reuters.com > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the > individual sender, except where the sender specifically > states them to be the views of Reuters Limited. > > Reuters Limited is part of the Reuters Group of companies, of > which Reuters Group PLC is the ultimate parent company. > Reuters Group PLC - Registered office address: The Reuters > Building, South Colonnade, Canary Wharf, London E14 5EP, > United Kingdom Registered No: 3296375 Registered in England and Wales > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 30 11:40:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXJDB-0005t1-CG; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:40:21 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXJDA-0005sw-DT for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:40:20 -0400 Received: from outbound-blu.frontbridge.com ([65.55.251.16] helo=outbound6-blu-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXJD9-0001xw-48 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:40:20 -0400 Received: from outbound6-blu.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound6-blu-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73F8108B2FB for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:40:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail107-blu-R.bigfish.com (unknown [10.1.252.3]) by outbound6-blu.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C287DBE805A for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:40:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail107-blu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail107-blu-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13D71940428 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:40:17 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: P Received: by mail107-blu (MessageSwitch) id 1175269217595802_17374; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:40:17 +0000 (UCT) Received: from lonsmime04.rit.reuters.com (lonsmimeo.rit.reuters.com [192.165.213.23]) by mail107-blu.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BB7B20074 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:40:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from eupig2 (unverified [129.1.30.40]) by lonsmime04.rit.reuters.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.19) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:40:16 +0000 Received: from LONSMSXB02.emea.ime.reuters.com ([10.14.113.7]) by eupig2.dtc.lon.ime.reuters.com (PMDF V6.2-1x10 #31408) with ESMTP id <0JFQ004493J4LY@eupig2.dtc.lon.ime.reuters.com>; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:40:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LONSMSXM06.emea.ime.reuters.com ([10.14.113.22]) by LONSMSXB02.emea.ime.reuters.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC (6.0.3790.0); Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:40:16 +0100 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:40:15 +0100 From: Misha Wolf In-reply-to: <017801c772e0$abca4870$6501a8c0@rishida> To: Richard Ishida , LTRU Working Group Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Updating http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/ Thread-Index: Acdy38ulmsfcjuuGR2OvSZ9fEEIkaAAALhcAAABC/9A= Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2007 15:40:16.0016 (UTC) FILETIME=[B69AE100:01C772E1] X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7fa173a723009a6ca8ce575a65a5d813 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] RE: Updating http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/ X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Yes, I saw that one too. Shouldn't the other article = be either updated or obsoleted? = Thanks, Misha -----Original Message----- From: Richard Ishida [mailto:ishida@w3.org] = Sent: 30 March 2007 16:33 To: Misha Wolf; 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: RE: Updating http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/ Misha, I assume that you're aware of http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ which to some extent eclipses that article. RI =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Richard Ishida Internationalization Lead W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) = http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ http://www.w3.org/International/ http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/ = = > -----Original Message----- > From: Misha Wolf [mailto:Misha.Wolf@reuters.com] = > Sent: 30 March 2007 16:27 > To: LTRU Working Group > Cc: ishida@w3.org > Subject: Updating http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/ > = > Hi Addison, > = > This article seems to be out-of-date as it repeatedly = > mentions RFC 3066 and makes no reference to RFCs 4646 and = > 4647. Any chance of updating it? > = > Thanks, > Misha > = > = > This email was sent to you by Reuters, the global news and = > information company. = > To find out more about Reuters visit www.about.reuters.com > = > Any views expressed in this message are those of the = > individual sender, except where the sender specifically = > states them to be the views of Reuters Limited. > = > Reuters Limited is part of the Reuters Group of companies, of = > which Reuters Group PLC is the ultimate parent company. > Reuters Group PLC - Registered office address: The Reuters = > Building, South Colonnade, Canary Wharf, London E14 5EP, = > United Kingdom Registered No: 3296375 Registered in England and Wales > = > = This email was sent to you by Reuters, the global news and information comp= any. = To find out more about Reuters visit www.about.reuters.com Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, = except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Reuters= Limited. Reuters Limited is part of the Reuters Group of companies, of which Reuters= Group PLC is the ultimate parent company. Reuters Group PLC - Registered office address: The Reuters Building, South = Colonnade, Canary Wharf, London E14 5EP, United Kingdom Registered No: 3296375 Registered in England and Wales _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

There are many more dialects of = Punjabi, depending on the region within Punjab in Pakistan.  What is = spoken in Sargodha is much different from what is spoken = in Lahore, etc. =  However, most agree that they are speaking Punjabi.  There is some = difference in vocabulary but real difference is in the pronunciation.  If locale = is to be sensitive to these dimensions of a language, then multiple codes need = to be put in.  However, if locale is just identifying the language not the = dialect (sub-language? as in some cases the dialects may not be mutually = understandable), then a singular locale would do.  I am not sure what level locale = is designed to serve?  Could anybody else further elaborate on this?  I = am cc:ing a couple of other people, in case they want to = comment.

 

=

We had looked at the written = version of Punjabi in Pakistan (also called Shahmukhi) for standardization purposes, and there seems = to be less variety at this level.  

 

=

Regards,
Sarmad

 

=

From: Don = Osborn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March = 14, 2007 12:55 AM
To: 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU = Working Group'; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Cc: Sarmad Hussain, = Dr.
Subject: RE: [Ltru] = Punjabi

 

Hi Mark. = An addendum to your question would be what they write. Might there be a pa-PK = written standard? I don’t know, just asking. =

 =

I will = take the liberty of cc’ing the question to Dr. Sarmad Hussein of the = National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences in Lahore, who also heads the PAN L10n project in Asia ( http://www.panl10n.net ), in case = he has any thoughts.

 =

Don

 =

 =

From: Mark = Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, = 2007 3:12 PM
To: LTRU Working Group; ISO639-3@sil.org; iso639-2@loc.gov
Subject: [Ltru] = Punjabi

 

I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives = "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes:

pmu    Mirpur Panjabi
pnb    Western Panjabi
pan    Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the = Ethnologue.

It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro = language for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (=3D "pa"), = even as a macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or = locale pa_PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement?

--
Mark