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From: "Doug Ewell" <dewell@adelphia.net>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:53:41 -0700
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Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

> <t>Sometimes the requested record needs to be modified as a result of 
> discussion during the review period or due to requirements in this 
> document. The applicant, Language Subtag Reviewer, or others are free 
> to submit a modified version of the request, which will be considered 
> in lieu of the original request with the explicit approval of the 
> applicant. Such changes do not restart the two-week discussion period, 
> although an application containing the final record submitted to IANA 
> MUST appear on the list at least one week prior to the Language Subtag 
> Reviewer forwarding the record to IANA. The applicant is also free to 
> modify a rejected application with additional information and submit 
> it again; this starts a new two-week comment period.</t>

At least one week?  That will have the effect of indirectly restarting 
the review period: every comment that comes in N days before the end of 
the review period (for N < 7) that results in a change to the original 
request will cause the review period to be extended by another (7 - N) 
days.

If that is what the ietf-languages group wants, I won't argue the point, 
but I see a lot more complaints about the group's slow pace and 
indecisiveness than about registering things it shouldn't.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 01 05:32:47 2007
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
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At 13:53 07/05/01, Doug Ewell wrote:
>Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

>At least one week?  That will have the effect of indirectly restarting the review period: every comment that comes in N days before the end of the review period (for N < 7) that results in a change to the original request will cause the review period to be extended by another (7 - N) days.

Yes, that's the intention. The issue is that if something new comes
up, even if it looks like everybody agrees on the spot, it's better
to give it a bit of time.

>If that is what the ietf-languages group wants, I won't argue the point, but I see a lot more complaints about the group's slow pace and indecisiveness than about registering things it shouldn't.

My understanding is that indecisiveness doesn't happen because
there are ongoing little tweaks that don't converge, but mainly
because a) there are strongly opposing opinions, or b) because
peolple don't care too much either way, or c) because nobody has
enough time.

One other way to address issues is to at some point just say
"the one we had already one week ago is good enough, if you want
to change it again, please submit another request". Of course,
that only works for changeable fields.

Anyway, that's the intention behind what Addison wrote (or my
interpretation of it), but I'm not totally attached to it.

Regards,    Martin.



#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 01 11:18:42 2007
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Doug Ewell wrote:
> 
>> <t>Sometimes the requested record needs to be modified as a result of 
>> discussion during the review period or due to requirements in this 
>> document. The applicant, Language Subtag Reviewer, or others are free 
>> to submit a modified version of the request, which will be considered 
>> in lieu of the original request with the explicit approval of the 
>> applicant. Such changes do not restart the two-week discussion period, 
>> although an application containing the final record submitted to IANA 
>> MUST appear on the list at least one week prior to the Language Subtag 
>> Reviewer forwarding the record to IANA. The applicant is also free to 
>> modify a rejected application with additional information and submit 
>> it again; this starts a new two-week comment period.</t>
> 
> At least one week?  That will have the effect of indirectly restarting 
> the review period: every comment that comes in N days before the end of 
> the review period (for N < 7) that results in a change to the original 
> request will cause the review period to be extended by another (7 - N) 
> days.

I had to pick a time period. A time period of less than 48 hours doesn't 
permit people time to respond (especially if the 48 hours fall on a 
weekend or national holiday). So I chose a week as a convenient time period.

I note that this does not restart the time period for review and 
approval. The LSR can approve the record at any time (provided two-weeks 
have elapsed), but he cannot forward the record until the 7 days have 
elapsed for the final record.

And note that it is only the FINAL record that matters for the one week 
measure. The applicant is free to send a new record every day for the 
first week of the review period without causing any change in the 
registration schedule at all.

> 
> If that is what the ietf-languages group wants, I won't argue the point, 
> but I see a lot more complaints about the group's slow pace and 
> indecisiveness than about registering things it shouldn't.

The ietf-languages list is rather too efficient at registering subtags, 
in my opinion. The slow pace, indecisiveness, lack of discipline, and 
general opacity of the process is an artifact, in my opinion, of how the 
list and process are managed. Nonetheless, we have to hand quite a list 
of examples of "register quickly" (under a month) followed by "repent 
forever".

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 01 11:22:07 2007
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Mark Davis wrote:
>  I'd suggest slightly different wording, since saying that it cannot be 
> removed but can be modified is a bit odd. So I'd suggest:

The modifications are limited, though.

> 
> The collection of fields of type 'Prefix' MUST NOT be changed in a way 
> that narrows the meaning of the subtag. If there is no Prefix, then one 
> cannot be added. 

This sentence bothers me. I know you're trying to prevent true generic 
variants from becoming language specific, but the wording, I think, 
would be confusing.

> If there (is) a Prefix, then others can be added. A Prefix 
> can be removed only if it is redundant: there is another Prefix that 
> covers all of the cases that it does. For example:
>   Prefix: zh-Hant
>   Prefix: zh-Hans
> can be replaced by
>   Prefix: zh
>   Prefix: ru
> This is because addition of zh makes zh-Hant and zh-Hans redundant, so 
> they can be removed, and the addition of "ru" only broadens.
> 

I'll work on incorporating this into draft-06 when I get a chance later 
today.

Addison

-- 
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Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Tags for Identifying Languages
	Author(s)	: A. Phillips, M. Davis
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-05.txt
	Pages		: 68
	Date		: 2007-5-1
	
This document describes the structure, content, construction, and
   semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to
   indicate the language used in an information object.  It also
   describes how to register values for use in language tags and the
   creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange.

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 02 01:11:39 2007
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Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

> The ietf-languages list is rather too efficient at registering 
> subtags, in my opinion. The slow pace, indecisiveness, lack of 
> discipline, and general opacity of the process is an artifact, in my 
> opinion, of how the list and process are managed. Nonetheless, we have 
> to hand quite a list of examples of "register quickly" (under a month) 
> followed by "repent forever".

How many "repent forever" subtags would you say we currently have?

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 03 07:47:53 2007
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Transliteration of reference titles
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From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]

> BTW, I'm not pushing strongly for this, since the current
> situation is workable, though not not optimal. One example
> of why it is not optimal is that Yahoo, Google, etc. don't
> think that the language subtag registry contains words
> like Bokm=E5l. Try a Google or Yahoo search for
>
>=A0 iana language-subtag-registry Bokm=E5l

Interesting -- no hit on the LSTR. Try it in Live Search: LSTR is the very =
first hit.



Peter


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 03 08:03:37 2007
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Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 05:03:20 -0700
Subject: RE: [Ltru] draft-05 changes, etc.
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From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com]

> I just submitted draft-05...

There's a word missing in rule 4 of section 4.1:

Change

   4.  [ISO639-2] has defined several codes included in the subtag
       registry that require additional care when choosing language
       tags.  In most of these cases, where omitting the language tag is
       permitted, such omission preferable to using these codes.

to

   4.  [ISO639-2] has defined several codes included in the subtag
       registry that require additional care when choosing language
       tags.  In most of these cases, where omitting the language tag is
       permitted, such omission is preferable to using these codes.
                                ^^


Peter


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 03 08:27:17 2007
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>, 'LTRU Working Group'
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Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 05:26:59 -0700
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I suggest the following change to numbered paragraph 5 in section 2.2.1: fr=
om

   5.  All language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA
       registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5
       and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag.  At the time
       this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of
       subtag and future registrations of this type will be discouraged:
       primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with
       ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/RA will be closely...
                                                  ^^
to

   5.  All language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA
       registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5
       and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag.  At the time
       this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of
       subtag and future registrations of this type will be discouraged:
       primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with
       ISO 639, and proposals rejected by the ISO 639/RA-JAC will be...
                                                      ^^^^^^


Peter


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 03 08:29:38 2007
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>, 'LTRU Working Group'
	<ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 05:29:21 -0700
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In section 2.2.2, numbered paragraph 4 repeats information in numbered para=
graph 2:

   2.  A sequence of up to three extended language subtags MAY appear in
       a language tag.  This sequence MUST follow the primary language
       subtag and precede any other subtags.

   ...

   4.  There MAY be up to three extended language subtags.

I suggest that numbered paragraph 4 can be removed (with the following para=
graph be renumbered accordingly).



Peter


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I assume the editors are tracking this open issue:

   o  Defines the incorporation of ISO 639-3 codes as language and
      extlang subtags.  Extlangs are now permitted in language tags.
      The changes necessary to achieve this were:

      *  something
         ^^^^^^^^^

Peter


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Thanks. Fixed in editor's copy.

Addison

Peter Constable wrote:
> From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com]
> 
>> I just submitted draft-05...
> 
> There's a word missing in rule 4 of section 4.1:
> 
> Change
> 
>    4.  [ISO639-2] has defined several codes included in the subtag
>        registry that require additional care when choosing language
>        tags.  In most of these cases, where omitting the language tag is
>        permitted, such omission preferable to using these codes.
> 
> to
> 
>    4.  [ISO639-2] has defined several codes included in the subtag
>        registry that require additional care when choosing language
>        tags.  In most of these cases, where omitting the language tag is
>        permitted, such omission is preferable to using these codes.
>                                 ^^
> 
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

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Internationalization is an architecture.
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Done (in editor's copy)

Addison

Peter Constable wrote:
> I suggest the following change to numbered paragraph 5 in section 2.2.1: from
> 
>    5.  All language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA
>        registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5
>        and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag.  At the time
>        this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of
>        subtag and future registrations of this type will be discouraged:
>        primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with
>        ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/RA will be closely...
>                                                   ^^
> to
> 
>    5.  All language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA
>        registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5
>        and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag.  At the time
>        this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of
>        subtag and future registrations of this type will be discouraged:
>        primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with
>        ISO 639, and proposals rejected by the ISO 639/RA-JAC will be...
>                                                       ^^^^^^
> 
> 
> Peter

-- 
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Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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Removed item 4.

Addison

Peter Constable wrote:
> In section 2.2.2, numbered paragraph 4 repeats information in numbered paragraph 2:
> 
>    2.  A sequence of up to three extended language subtags MAY appear in
>        a language tag.  This sequence MUST follow the primary language
>        subtag and precede any other subtags.
> 
>    ...
> 
>    4.  There MAY be up to three extended language subtags.
> 
> I suggest that numbered paragraph 4 can be removed (with the following paragraph be renumbered accordingly).
> 
> 
> 
> Peter

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Yep. The editors intend to fix that as we approach last call.

Addison

Peter Constable wrote:
> I assume the editors are tracking this open issue:
> 
>    o  Defines the incorporation of ISO 639-3 codes as language and
>       extlang subtags.  Extlangs are now permitted in language tags.
>       The changes necessary to achieve this were:
> 
>       *  something
>          ^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Peter

-- 
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Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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Elaine:

It is unclear to me whether the ontology is clearly defined. (I have not pa=
rticipated in the development area in question so am not familiar with the =
relevant details of this case. This is general feedback.)

In many cases, metadata elements are used for "language" where what is, in =
fact, meant may or may not be strictly language. In particular, the XML att=
ribute xml:lang has always drawn values from an IETF specification for "lan=
guage tags", and those cover a complex ontology that includes more than jus=
t language in the conventional sense. Specifically, IETF "language" tags ca=
n be used to declare language, dialect, written form, orthographic conventi=
ons and other such language-related attributes of content.

If an XML schema defines some attribute that takes values from ISO 639, the=
n the ontology involved could be considered that of language in the convent=
ional sense. But if the attribute xml:lang is used, then "language" involve=
s a different ontology.

I discussed these issues in a paper five years ago, which you can find at h=
ttp://www.unicode.org/notes/tn8/SILEWP2002-003.pdf. (This was a first attem=
pt and should not be taken as reflecting up-to-date understanding.)


Peter

From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international-request@w3=
.org] On Behalf Of Elisa F. Kendall
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:25 AM
To: Misha Wolf
Cc: Gauri.Salokhe@FAO.ORG; WWW International; Semantic web list; LTRU Worki=
ng Group
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Language Ontology]

Hi Misha,

We are very aware of it, and have been following the work, but I failed to =
mention it in the email.  I should say that our ontology was developed for =
offline use in an internal system, as an initial requirement.  Having said =
that, if you look at the RFCs, they only describe tags, not an RDF vocabula=
ry or OWL ontology.  Our approach is compatible with the RFCs but adds capa=
bilities that support co-reference resolution, for example, in target appli=
cation.

Best,

Elisa

Misha Wolf wrote:

This sounds very worrying as you don't seem to be aware of BCP 47.

Misha

________________________________
From: www-international-request@w3.org<mailto:www-international-request@w3.=
org> [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Elisa F. Kendal=
l
Sent: 23 April 2007 17:32
To: Gauri.Salokhe@FAO.ORG<mailto:Gauri.Salokhe@FAO.ORG>
Cc: 'WWW International'; Semantic web list
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Language Ontology]
Hi Gauri,

We've done this for some of our government customers, using essentially the=
 second approach you cite.  We're also in the process of relating the ontol=
ogy to another one we've built to represent ISO 3166, which includes the ad=
ministrative languages used by countries and non-sovereign territories  rep=
resented in that standard.

If you can hang out for a few days, we (Sandpiper) are just finalizing a ve=
rsion that includes both ISO 639-1 and 639-2. The approach is more of a hyb=
rid of the two you present, based on customer needs.  It includes a fragmen=
t of ISO 1087, and also some inverse relations since there is a one-to-one =
correspondence between languages and codes.  We elected to create a 'Langua=
ge' class, rather than 'LanguageCode', which we reuse in other applications=
; classes for Alpha-2Code and Alpha-3Code are subclasses of CodeElement, fr=
om ISO 5127, with instances of these codes as first class individuals. We u=
se literals (via datatype properties) to represent the set of English, Fren=
ch, and in the case of 639-1 Indigenous names.  We've also created subclass=
es of Alpha-3Code to support distinctions between bibliographic and termino=
logic, collective, and special identifiers, with individual and macrolangua=
ges to support 639-3.  A subsequent release will include all of the languag=
es described in ISO 639-3, as well as additions to support at least some of=
 the subtagging that Dan mentions, fyi.  Our intent is to publish it on a n=
ew portal that will become part of a new service offered by the Ontology PS=
IG in the OMG, since we've been asked to publish several ontologies in rece=
nt RFPs.  I'll be happy to send our preliminary version when it's "baked an=
d tested", and follow up with an announcement of the new portal (where a re=
vision using OMG URIs will be posted) once that's available.  It may be a c=
ouple of months before we're ready to make that announcement, but we're hop=
ing that the service will be useful to many of us in the Semantic Web commu=
nity.

Best regards,

Elisa

Dan Brickley wrote:

Forwarding from the Dublin Core list, in case folk here can advise.

Gauri, one thing I'd suggest as useful would be to take the concepts implic=
it in RFC 4646,

http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt
see also http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/Overview.en=
.php

...and in particular the subtag mechanism, script, region, variant etc.

It would be great to have those expressed explicitly.

cheers,

Dan
________________________________

Subject:
Language Ontology

From:
"Salokhe, Gauri (KCEW)" <Gauri.Salokhe@FAO.ORG><mailto:Gauri.Salokhe@FAO.OR=
G>

Date:
Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:28:39 +0200

To:
DC-GENERAL@JISCMAIL.AC.UK<mailto:DC-GENERAL@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>


To:
DC-GENERAL@JISCMAIL.AC.UK<mailto:DC-GENERAL@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>




Dear All,



We are working on creating Ontology for languages. The need came up as we

tried to convert our XML metadata files into OWL. In our metadata (XML)

records, we have three types of occurrences of language information.



<dc:language scheme=3D"ags:ISO639-1">En</dc:language>

<dc:language scheme=3D"dcterms:ISO639-2">eng</dc:language>

<dc:language>English</dc:language>





We have two options for modelling the language ontology:



1) Create a class for each language, assign URI to it and add all the other

lexical variations, ISO codes (create datatype property) as follows:



OWL:Thing

|_ Class:Language

        |_ Instance:URI1

               |_ rdfs:label xml:lang=3D"en" English

               |_ rdfs:label xml:lang=3D"es" Ingl=E9s

               |_ rdfs:label xml:lang=3D"it" Inglese

               |_ rdfs:label xml:lang=3D"fr" Anglais

               |_ etc.

               |_ property:hasISO639-1Code  en (string)

               |_ property:hasISO639-2Code  eng (string)

               |_ etc.

        |_ Instance:URI2

        |_ Instance:URI3

        |_ Instance:URI4





2) Create Classes called Language and Language code and make links between

instances of Language and Language Codes as follows:





OWL:Thing

|_ Class:Language

        |_ Instance:URI1

               |_ property:hasCode  en  (link to the en instance of Class

ISO639-1 below)

               |_ property:hasCode  eng  (link to the eng instance of Class

ISO639-1 below)



|_ Class:LanguageCode

        |_ SubClass ISO639-1

               |_ Instance:en

               |_ Instance:fr

               |_ etc.

        |_ SubClass ISO639-2

               |_ Instance:eng

               |_ Instance:fra

               |_ etc.

        |_ etc.



Does anyone have similar experience with modelling in OWL? Any suggestions =
on

which model is better and (extensible)? Does an ontology already exist that

we can reuse?



Than you,

Gauri



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<body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Elaine:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is unclear to me whether the ontology is clearly defined.=
 (I
have not participated in the development area in question so am not familia=
r
with the relevant details of this case. This is general feedback.) <o:p></o=
:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In many cases, metadata elements are used for &#8220;languag=
e&#8221;
where what is, in fact, meant may or may not be strictly language. In
particular, the XML attribute xml:lang has always drawn values from an IETF
specification for &#8220;language tags&#8221;, and those cover a complex
ontology that includes more than just language in the conventional sense. S=
pecifically,
IETF &#8220;language&#8221; tags can be used to declare language, dialect,
written form, orthographic conventions and other such language-related attr=
ibutes
of content.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If an XML schema defines some attribute that takes values fr=
om
ISO 639, then the ontology involved could be considered that of language in=
 the
conventional sense. But if the attribute xml:lang is used, then &#8220;lang=
uage&#8221;
involves a different ontology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I discussed these issues in a paper five years ago, which yo=
u
can find at <a href=3D"http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn8/SILEWP2002-003.pdf"=
>http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn8/SILEWP2002-003.pdf</a>.
(This was a first attempt and should not be taken as reflecting up-to-date
understanding.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif";
color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> www-international-request@w3.org
[mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Elisa F. Kend=
all<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 23, 2007 10:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Misha Wolf<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gauri.Salokhe@FAO.ORG; WWW International; Semantic web list; LTR=
U
Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fwd: Language Ontology]<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Misha,<br>
<br>
We are very aware of it, and have been following the work, but I failed to
mention it in the email.&nbsp; I should say that our ontology was developed=
 for
offline use in an internal system, as an initial requirement.&nbsp; Having =
said
that, if you look at the RFCs, they only describe tags, not an RDF vocabula=
ry
or OWL ontology.&nbsp; Our approach is compatible with the RFCs but adds
capabilities that support co-reference resolution, for example, in target
application.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Elisa<br>
<br>
Misha Wolf wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
"sans-serif";
color:blue'>This sounds very worrying as you don't seem to be&nbsp;aware of=
 BCP
47.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
"sans-serif";
color:blue'>Misha</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D3 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href=3D"mailto:www-international-request@w3.org">www-international-request@=
w3.org</a>
[<a href=3D"mailto:www-international-request@w3.org">mailto:www-internation=
al-request@w3.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Elisa F. Kendall<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 23 April 2007 17:32<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:Gauri.Salokhe@FAO.ORG">Gauri.Salokhe@FAO.ORG</=
a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'WWW International'; Semantic web list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fwd: Language Ontology]</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Gauri,<br>
<br>
We've done this for some of our government customers, using essentially the
second approach you cite.&nbsp; We're also in the process of relating the
ontology to another one we've built to represent ISO 3166, which includes t=
he
administrative languages used by countries and non-sovereign territories&nb=
sp;
represented in that standard.<br>
<br>
If you can hang out for a few days, we (Sandpiper) are just finalizing a
version that includes both ISO 639-1 and 639-2. The approach is more of a
hybrid of the two you present, based on customer needs.&nbsp; It includes a
fragment of ISO 1087, and also some inverse relations since there is a
one-to-one correspondence between languages and codes.&nbsp; We elected to
create a 'Language' class, rather than 'LanguageCode', which we reuse in ot=
her
applications; classes for Alpha-2Code and Alpha-3Code are subclasses of
CodeElement, from ISO 5127, with instances of these codes as first class
individuals. We use literals (via datatype properties) to represent the set=
 of
English, French, and in the case of 639-1 Indigenous names.&nbsp; We've als=
o
created subclasses of Alpha-3Code to support distinctions between bibliogra=
phic
and terminologic, collective, and special identifiers, with individual and
macrolanguages to support 639-3.&nbsp; A subsequent release will include al=
l of
the languages described in ISO 639-3, as well as additions to support at le=
ast
some of the subtagging that Dan mentions, fyi.&nbsp; Our intent is to publi=
sh
it on a new portal that will become part of a new service offered by the
Ontology PSIG in the OMG, since we've been asked to publish several ontolog=
ies
in recent RFPs.&nbsp; I'll be happy to send our preliminary version when it=
's
&quot;baked and tested&quot;, and follow up with an announcement of the new
portal (where a revision using OMG URIs will be posted) once that's
available.&nbsp; It may be a couple of months before we're ready to make th=
at
announcement, but we're hoping that the service will be useful to many of u=
s in
the Semantic Web community.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Elisa<br>
<br>
Dan Brickley wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
Forwarding from the Dublin Core list, in case folk here can advise. <br>
<br>
Gauri, one thing I'd suggest as useful would be to take the concepts implic=
it
in RFC 4646, <br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt">http://www.rfc-editor=
.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt</a>
<br>
see also <a
href=3D"http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/Overview.en.=
php">http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/Overview.en.php=
</a>
<br>
<br>
...and in particular the subtag mechanism, script, region, variant etc. <br=
>
<br>
It would be great to have those expressed explicitly. <br>
<br>
cheers, <br>
<br>
Dan <o:p></o:p></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D4 width=3D"90%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 wi=
dth=3D"100%"
 style=3D'width:100.0%'>
 <tr>
  <td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: <o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>Language Ontology<o:p></o:p></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>From: <o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;Salokhe, Gauri (KCEW)&quot; <a
  href=3D"mailto:Gauri.Salokhe@FAO.ORG">&lt;Gauri.Salokhe@FAO.ORG&gt;</a><o=
:p></o:p></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>Date: <o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:28:39 +0200<o:p></o:p></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>To: <o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto:DC-GENERAL@JISCMAIL.AC.UK">DC-GENE=
RAL@JISCMAIL.AC.UK</a><o:p></o:p></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'display:none'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 wi=
dth=3D"100%"
 style=3D'width:100.0%'>
 <tr>
  <td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>To: <o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto:DC-GENERAL@JISCMAIL.AC.UK">DC-GENE=
RAL@JISCMAIL.AC.UK</a><o:p></o:p></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<pre>Dear All, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>We are wor=
king on creating Ontology for languages. The need came up as we<o:p></o:p><=
/pre><pre>tried to convert our XML metadata files into OWL. In our metadata=
 (XML)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>records, we have three types of occurrences of =
language information. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>&lt=
;dc:language scheme=3D&quot;ags:ISO639-1&quot;&gt;En&lt;/dc:language&gt;<o:=
p></o:p></pre><pre>&lt;dc:language scheme=3D&quot;dcterms:ISO639-2&quot;&gt=
;eng&lt;/dc:language&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&lt;dc:language&gt;English&lt=
;/dc:language&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></pre><pre>We have two options for modelling the language ontology=
:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>1) Create a class for ea=
ch language, assign URI to it and add all the other<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>le=
xical variations, ISO codes (create datatype property) as follows:<o:p></o:=
p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>OWL:Thing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>|_ =
Class:Language<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ Instance:URI1<=
o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ rdfs:lab=
el <a
href=3D"xml:lang=3D">xml:lang=3D</a>&quot;en&quot; English<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ rdfs:label <a
href=3D"xml:lang=3D">xml:lang=3D</a>&quot;es&quot; Ingl=E9s<o:p></o:p></pre=
><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ rdfs:label <a
href=3D"xml:lang=3D">xml:lang=3D</a>&quot;it&quot; Inglese<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ rdfs:label <a
href=3D"xml:lang=3D">xml:lang=3D</a>&quot;fr&quot; Anglais<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ etc.<o:p></o:p></pre><pr=
e>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ property:hasISO639-1Code=A0=
 en (string)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 |_ property:hasISO639-2Code=A0 eng (string)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ etc.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ Instance:URI2<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_=
 Instance:URI3<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ Instance:URI4<=
o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pr=
e>2) Create Classes called Language and Language code and make links betwee=
n<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>instances of Language and Language Codes as follows:=
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><p=
re>OWL:Thing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>|_ Class:Language<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ Instance:URI1<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ property:hasCode=A0 en=A0 (link to the en in=
stance of Class<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ISO639-1 below)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ property:hasCode=A0 eng=A0 (l=
ink to the eng instance of Class<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ISO639-1 below)<o:p><=
/o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>|_ Class:LanguageCode<o:p></o:p=
></pre><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ SubClass ISO639-1<o:p></o:p></pre><pre=
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ Instance:en<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ Instance:fr<o:p></o:p></=
pre><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ etc.<o:p></o:p></pre=
><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ SubClass ISO639-2<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ Instance:eng<o:p></o:p></pre><pr=
e>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ Instance:fra<o:p></o:p></pr=
e><pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ etc.<o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_ etc.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
re><pre>Does anyone have similar experience with modelling in OWL? Any sugg=
estions on<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>which model is better and (extensible)? Doe=
s an ontology already exist that<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>we can reuse?<o:p></o=
:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Than you, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>G=
auri<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=A0 <o:p></o:p></pre>

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 03 11:24:57 2007
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From: "Stephen Silver" <ltru@argentum.freeserve.co.uk>
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Section 2.2.9 says:

   For each subtag that has a 'Prefix' field in the registry, the
   Prefix matches the language tag using Extended Filtering [RFC4647].

This doesn't account for the possibility of multiple 'Prefix' fields.
It should say "at least one Prefix" instead of "the Prefix".

Section 2.2.9 continues:

   That is, each subtag in the Prefix is present in the tag and in
   the same order.

This is misleading, as it may wrongly suggest that the prefix "tw"
matches the tag "zh-TW", and that the prefix "zh-TW" matches the tag
"zh-x-TW".  I think it would be better just to drop this sentence.

-- 
Stephen Silver



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 04 09:55:33 2007
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From: "Doug Ewell" <dewell@adelphia.net>
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Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft dot com> wrote:

> I suggest the following change to numbered paragraph 5 in section 
> 2.2.1: from
>
>       ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/RA will be closely...
>                                                  ^^
> to
>
>       ISO 639, and proposals rejected by the ISO 639/RA-JAC will be...
>                                                      ^^^^^^

I'll definitely want Peter and others to help me out in this regard when 
reviewing the next version of draft-4645bis.  I have a tendency to get 
references like this wrong.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages





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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 05 14:12:56 2007
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Mark Davis <mark dot davis at icu dash project dot org> wrote:

> BTW, oddly, on MSN.com a search for "Mark Davis" comes up with my home 
> page as the first item, while on Google and Yahoo it is much further 
> down, below the talk-show host, porn star, baseball player, columnist, 
> ...)   So what did I do to deserve top billing by Microsoft? ;-) 
> "Doug Ewell" is always at the top -- lucky guy -- while "Addison 
> Phillips" is variously below a Horse Power rider, blogger, military 
> book salesman, and musician.

So far I've managed to stay ahead of the "other" Doug Ewell, a rather 
successful and quotable basketball coach at Westfield High School in 
Virginia.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 02:55:28 2007
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Quick question:

Looking at the definition for "field-body":

   field-body = *(ASCCHAR/LWSP)

Was the actual intention:

   field-body = *([FWS] 1*ASCCHAR)

   FWS = [*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP

?

                - Chris




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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 03:22:40 2007
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From: David Conrad <david.conrad@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 00:22:33 -0700
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Hi,

Sorry for the slow response on this.  I'll be honest and say that I'm  
still not entirely clear what IANA should be doing in this case, so  
please do not take anything I say as definitive or concrete as to how  
IANA will meet this community's requirements.  We are definitely open  
to suggestions here...

On Apr 24, 2007, at 12:55 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
>> A longstanding problem which needs to be fixed.  RFC 4646 section
>> 3.5 requires the approved registration forms (as submitted to IANA
>> by the language subtag reviewer, in my reading) to be available.
>
> Yes. Whatever the reason of the lack of availability (remember that
> David Conrad, IANA director, wrote he is searching why) IMHO, it
> should be fixed.

So, we've started making the forms people submit (after approval by  
the IESG designated expert) available at:

http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/index.html

Is this what is desired?

> But for LTRU, it may also be time to consider a change to make this
> obligation clearer in 4646bis?

Clear obligations would be deeply appreciated.

>> Are the updated registration form not currently making it to IANA,
> That would be strange since they receive the registration requests and
> they act on it.

Actually, not as I understand it.  IANA only receives the approved  
forms sent to us by the IESG designated expert.

Rgds,
-drc



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On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 11:07:36AM +0200,
 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote 
 a message of 47 lines which said:

> 3) Modification to 4646bis, section 3.3 and 3.5 to make
> crystal-clear that IANA receives the *form*, not just the record and
> make it available, both in the registry and in a to-be-determined
> repository. (Apparently the way it was supposed to work in RFC
> 3066).

OK, since this propasal is apparently the widely-accepted one and
since David Conrad's report about IANA
(http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg07790.html), I
suggest the following changes to draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-05:

In section 3.3 "Maintenance of the Registry", in the paragraph which
ends with:

> Each record being modified or inserted MUST be forwarded in a
> separate message.

Add at the end: 

The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST also sends to the IANA the complete
registration form, as specified in section 3.5, for future publication
(this MAY be done by a reference to the ietf-languages archive, where
this form has been published).

In section 3.5 "Registration Procedure for Subtags", replace:

> Forward the record to be inserted or modified to iana@iana.org
> according to the procedure described in Section 3.3.

by:

Forward the record to be inserted or modified, and the complete
registration form, to iana@iana.org according to the procedure
described in Section 3.3.

Replace:

> All approved registration forms are available online in the
> directory http://www.iana.org/numbers.html under "languages".

by:

The approved records will appear in the Language Subtag Registry
described in section 5.1 All approved registration forms are available
online under http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/.

In section 5.1 "Language Subtag Registry", replace:

> and archiving the forwarded registration form.

by:

and archiving and making publically available the forwarded
registration form (not just the record).




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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 05:20:47 2007
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On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 12:22:33AM -0700,
 David Conrad <david.conrad@icann.org> wrote 
 a message of 38 lines which said:

> So, we've started making the forms people submit (after approval by  
> the IESG designated expert) available at:
> 
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/index.html
> 
> Is this what is desired?

Yes, IMHO, that's perfect.

Would it be possible to add the previous forms (the ones submitted
since RFC 4646 was issued)? I'm aware it will take time and (may be)
reconstruction...

> Clear obligations would be deeply appreciated.

Posted on LTRU two minutes ago for discussion.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 12:01:02 2007
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I'd rather go the other direction and work on eliminating the rest of 
the form or putting less emphasis on it, since, sending two items to 
IANA and having them maintain them using separate processes is 
potentially cumbersome and adds no value.

As a result, I think that archiving the request forms is more-or-less a 
waste of time. The real meat of the request is the record. Hence the 
changes I made in draft-05 to require the record's complete publication 
on ietf-languages.

Note that a single record might have multiple forms associated with it.

Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 11:07:36AM +0200,
>  Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote 
>  a message of 47 lines which said:
> 
>> 3) Modification to 4646bis, section 3.3 and 3.5 to make
>> crystal-clear that IANA receives the *form*, not just the record and
>> make it available, both in the registry and in a to-be-determined
>> repository. (Apparently the way it was supposed to work in RFC
>> 3066).
> 
> OK, since this propasal is apparently the widely-accepted one and
> since David Conrad's report about IANA
> (http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg07790.html), I
> suggest the following changes to draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-05:
> 
> In section 3.3 "Maintenance of the Registry", in the paragraph which
> ends with:
> 
>> Each record being modified or inserted MUST be forwarded in a
>> separate message.
> 
> Add at the end: 
> 
> The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST also sends to the IANA the complete
> registration form, as specified in section 3.5, for future publication
> (this MAY be done by a reference to the ietf-languages archive, where
> this form has been published).
> 
> In section 3.5 "Registration Procedure for Subtags", replace:
> 
>> Forward the record to be inserted or modified to iana@iana.org
>> according to the procedure described in Section 3.3.
> 
> by:
> 
> Forward the record to be inserted or modified, and the complete
> registration form, to iana@iana.org according to the procedure
> described in Section 3.3.
> 
> Replace:
> 
>> All approved registration forms are available online in the
>> directory http://www.iana.org/numbers.html under "languages".
> 
> by:
> 
> The approved records will appear in the Language Subtag Registry
> described in section 5.1 All approved registration forms are available
> online under http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/.
> 
> In section 5.1 "Language Subtag Registry", replace:
> 
>> and archiving the forwarded registration form.
> 
> by:
> 
> and archiving and making publically available the forwarded
> registration form (not just the record).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 12:35:52 2007
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Hi Chris,

No, that's not a mistake. Your proposal would allow folding whitespace 
following the colon, but no spaces in the body of the value or (the main 
purpose of LWSP in the production) to wrap lines.

Also, FWS is not defined by RFC 4234, as LWSP is, and the effect is 
essentially the same.

Addison

Chris Newman wrote:
> Quick question:
> 
> Looking at the definition for "field-body":
> 
>   field-body = *(ASCCHAR/LWSP)
> 
> Was the actual intention:
> 
>   field-body = *([FWS] 1*ASCCHAR)
> 
>   FWS = [*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP
> 
> ?
> 
>                - Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 13:51:23 2007
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Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:51:17 -0700
From: Chris Newman <Chris.Newman@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-05
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Please double-check your understanding of the RFC 2822-based ABNF I mentioned. 
It's a bit obscure, but it is semantically identical to the current ABNF except 
that it forbids whitespace-only folded lines because that's been an 
interoperability problem in some cases.  Specifically, this case (using < to 
indicate end-of-line):

Foo: bar<
 <
 baz<

Is permitted by LWSP, but not by FWS.  I do understand that the ABNF for FWS is 
a bit more obscure in order to eliminate that case, so perhaps it doesn't 
matter in for this document.  But I wanted to make sure it's intentional to 
allow whitespace-only folded lines.

                - Chris

Addison Phillips wrote on 5/10/07 9:35 -0700:

> Hi Chris,
>
> No, that's not a mistake. Your proposal would allow folding whitespace
> following the colon, but no spaces in the body of the value or (the main
> purpose of LWSP in the production) to wrap lines.
>
> Also, FWS is not defined by RFC 4234, as LWSP is, and the effect is
> essentially the same.
>
> Addison
>
> Chris Newman wrote:
>> Quick question:
>>
>> Looking at the definition for "field-body":
>>
>>   field-body = *(ASCCHAR/LWSP)
>>
>> Was the actual intention:
>>
>>   field-body = *([FWS] 1*ASCCHAR)
>>
>>   FWS = [*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP
>>
>> ?
>>
>>                - Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
> --
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
>
> Internationalization is an architecture.
> It is not a feature.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>






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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
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Hi -

As you may recall, the archival of registration forms was explicitly
recorded as issue #989 during the discussion of what became RFC 4646.
My reading of this thread so far is that there is broad support for
continuing to make BOTH the request form and the registry records
available.  The editors need to ensure that the document reflects
this consensus.

Randy
ltru co-chair

> From: "Addison Phillips" <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
> To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 9:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
>
> I'd rather go the other direction and work on eliminating the rest of 
> the form or putting less emphasis on it, since, sending two items to 
> IANA and having them maintain them using separate processes is 
> potentially cumbersome and adds no value.
> 
> As a result, I think that archiving the request forms is more-or-less a 
> waste of time. The real meat of the request is the record. Hence the 
> changes I made in draft-05 to require the record's complete publication 
> on ietf-languages.
> 
> Note that a single record might have multiple forms associated with it.
...



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Hm... yes, I see it now. Yes, that makes sense.

Is FWS formally defined somewhere? Or should I just put the production 
into the ABNF?

Addison

Chris Newman wrote:
> Please double-check your understanding of the RFC 2822-based ABNF I 
> mentioned. It's a bit obscure, but it is semantically identical to the 
> current ABNF except that it forbids whitespace-only folded lines because 
> that's been an interoperability problem in some cases.  Specifically, 
> this case (using < to indicate end-of-line):
> 
> Foo: bar<
> <
> baz<
> 
> Is permitted by LWSP, but not by FWS.  I do understand that the ABNF for 
> FWS is a bit more obscure in order to eliminate that case, so perhaps it 
> doesn't matter in for this document.  But I wanted to make sure it's 
> intentional to allow whitespace-only folded lines.
> 
>                - Chris
> 
> Addison Phillips wrote on 5/10/07 9:35 -0700:
> 
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> No, that's not a mistake. Your proposal would allow folding whitespace
>> following the colon, but no spaces in the body of the value or (the main
>> purpose of LWSP in the production) to wrap lines.
>>
>> Also, FWS is not defined by RFC 4234, as LWSP is, and the effect is
>> essentially the same.
>>
>> Addison
>>
>> Chris Newman wrote:
>>> Quick question:
>>>
>>> Looking at the definition for "field-body":
>>>
>>>   field-body = *(ASCCHAR/LWSP)
>>>
>>> Was the actual intention:
>>>
>>>   field-body = *([FWS] 1*ASCCHAR)
>>>
>>>   FWS = [*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>>                - Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ltru mailing list
>>> Ltru@ietf.org
>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
>> -- 
>> Addison Phillips
>> Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
>>
>> Internationalization is an architecture.
>> It is not a feature.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 09:00:40AM -0700,
 Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote 
 a message of 86 lines which said:

> As a result, I think that archiving the request forms is
> more-or-less a waste of time. The real meat of the request is the
> record.

If you follow that way (but see my other message for a discussion)
please make the posting of the final *form* on ietf-languages
mandatory and *add* something to 4646bis that requires the Comment
field to indicate the URL of the archived message.

This will not make more work for the IANA or the LSR but will allow
everyone to go from a record to the original submission.



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On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 09:00:40AM -0700,
 Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote 
 a message of 86 lines which said:

> I'd rather go the other direction and work on eliminating the rest
> of the form or putting less emphasis on it,

It seems to me that the question was already raised
(http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg07751.html) and
that there was a rough consensus for the solution 3 ("Clarify that the
IANA must archived and distribute the form, not only the request").

I agree with Randy Presuhn here. It seemed to be that the issue was
settled.

> having them [the IANA] maintain them using separate processes is
> potentially cumbersome

Yes, but IANA's David Conrad expressed no remark here.

> and adds no value.

I disagree: the record in the registry is not sufficient if you did
not read the entire thread in ietf-languages. Since we now register
subtile and blurry things like variants, having the ability to go back
to the complete form, specially with its references, seem to me
mandatory for the IETF open process.



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 17:03:07 2007
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Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> 
>> As a result, I think that archiving the request forms is
>> more-or-less a waste of time. The real meat of the request is the
>> record.
> 
> If you follow that way (but see my other message for a discussion)
> please make the posting of the final *form* on ietf-languages
> mandatory and *add* something to 4646bis that requires the Comment
> field to indicate the URL of the archived message.

Randy believes there is a consensus for what you requested. I intend to 
review your suggestions and incorporate them.

Actually, I think that the "additional" information in the form is 
redundant. Fields 1 and 2 are typically part of the email sending the 
form. Items 4 through 6 are redundant information with the record or 
only modestly interesting reference material. These fields were of use 
and interesting in the 3066 era. We kind of grandfathered them into the 
form in 4646.

I already incorporated a requirement for the final form to appear on 
ietf-languages:

--
Sometimes the requested record needs to be modified as a result of 
discussion during the review period or due to requirements in this 
document. The applicant, Language Subtag Reviewer, or others are free to 
submit a modified version of the request, which will be considered in 
lieu of the original request with the explicit approval of the applicant.
--

Do you feel that this text isn't sufficiently clear that what is 
submitted is the form? I could change "requested record" to "request" in 
the first sentence and the word "request" to "form" in the second 
sentence to help that....

> 
> This will not make more work for the IANA or the LSR but will allow
> everyone to go from a record to the original submission.
> 

I think I oppose having mandatory comments, especially ones bearing URLs 
to potentially transitory message archives.

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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Addison Phillips scripsit:

> I'd rather go the other direction and work on eliminating the rest of 
> the form or putting less emphasis on it, since, sending two items to 
> IANA and having them maintain them using separate processes is 
> potentially cumbersome and adds no value.

A unified process (IANA gets the registration form, archives it publicly,
plucks the record out and adds it to the LSR) works for me.

> As a result, I think that archiving the request forms is more-or-less a 
> waste of time. The real meat of the request is the record. Hence the 
> changes I made in draft-05 to require the record's complete publication 
> on ietf-languages.

The shows records the result, and the current result only.  It does
not, as the form does, indicate *why* the change is being made.

> Note that a single record might have multiple forms associated with it.

Just so, particularly if it is modified after approval.  Keeping the
registration forms around is the only way to provide a full history of
what was decided (the email archive shows what was discussed, but is not
a usable source of what was decided).

-- 
I am expressing my opinion.  When my            John Cowan
honorable and gallant friend is called,         cowan@ccil.org
he will express his opinion.  This is           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
the process which we call Debate.                   --Winston Churchill


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 21:51:18 2007
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> 
> In section 3.3 "Maintenance of the Registry", in the paragraph which
> ends with:
> 
>> Each record being modified or inserted MUST be forwarded in a
>> separate message.
> 
> Add at the end: 
> 
> The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST also sends to the IANA the complete
> registration form, as specified in section 3.5, for future publication
> (this MAY be done by a reference to the ietf-languages archive, where
> this form has been published).


Instead of this and following John Cowan's comment (whose sentiment I 
agree with), I rewrote the first paragraph of Section 3.3 from this:

--
Maintenance of the registry requires that as codes are assigned or 
withdrawn by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49, the Language 
Subtag Reviewer MUST evaluate each change, determine whether it 
conflicts with existing registry entries, and submit the information to 
IANA for inclusion in the registry. If a change takes place and the 
Language Subtag Reviewer does not do this in a timely manner, then any 
interested party MAY use the procedure in Section 3.5 (Registration 
Procedure for Subtags) to register the appropriate update.
--


To read:

--
<t>Maintenance of the registry requires that as codes are assigned or 
withdrawn by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49, the Language 
Subtag Reviewer MUST evaluate each change and determine the appropriate 
course of action according to the rules in this document. Usually this 
requires that the Language Subtag Reviewer fill in and submit the 
registration form found in <xref target="registrationProc" /> for the 
new or updated record. If a change to one of these standards takes place 
and the Language Subtag Reviewer does not do this in a timely manner, 
then any interested party MAY submit the form to begin the registration 
process. Thereafter the registration process continues normally.</t>
--

This makes the focus on the form (the LSR doesn't have to separately 
create one then---there is *always* a form), rather than the record. It 
also has the nice side-effect of making maintenance registrations 
consistent with all other registrations.

> 
> In section 3.5 "Registration Procedure for Subtags", replace:
> 
>> Forward the record to be inserted or modified to iana@iana.org
>> according to the procedure described in Section 3.3.
> 
> by:
> 
> Forward the record to be inserted or modified, and the complete
> registration form, to iana@iana.org according to the procedure
> described in Section 3.3.

In keeping with the above, I replaced "record" with "form".

> 
> Replace:
> 
>> All approved registration forms are available online in the
>> directory http://www.iana.org/numbers.html under "languages".
> 
> by:
> 
> The approved records will appear in the Language Subtag Registry
> described in section 5.1 All approved registration forms are available
> online under http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/.

I made these modifications.


> 
> In section 5.1 "Language Subtag Registry", replace:
> 
>> and archiving the forwarded registration form.
> 
> by:
> 
> and archiving and making publicly available the forwarded
> registration form (not just the record).
> 

I made additional edits to make this happen, with explicit instructions 
to extract the record, etc.

Since the edits are in multiple places, etc., I'm running idnits, abnf 
validator, etc. and will post a new draft (-06) tomorrow. I'll also post 
the edits to inter-locale, as usual, with a link to the wdiff.

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 01:27:16 2007
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(cross-posted after careful thought)

Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

>> This will not make more work for the IANA or the LSR but will allow 
>> everyone to go from a record to the original submission.
>
> I think I oppose having mandatory comments, especially ones bearing 
> URLs to potentially transitory message archives.

I oppose these mandatory comments rather strongly.  If we were forced to 
have them, I would think they should be a dedicated field, like "URL: 
http://whatever", not shoehorned into the existing Comments field along 
with all the human-readable stuff.

Regarding the whole issue of IANA archiving the registration forms, I 
think the new page at IANA looks great and should fulfill the intent of 
both this WG and the ietf-languages list.  Over the next 2 months or so, 
I intend to go back through the ietf-languages archives, dig up the 
registration forms for all the variants registered since the Language 
Subtag Registry went live in October 2005, retrofit whatever changes 
were made before the subtag was registered, and post them all on the 
ietf-languages list with an eye toward sending them to IANA.  If anyone 
else would like to do this, or share the workload, I would not object. 
Remember that ISO-based subtag additions and modifications are not part 
of this.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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David Conrad wrote:

> So, we've started making the forms people submit (after approval
> by the IESG designated expert) available at:
 
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/index.html
 
> Is this what is desired?

Thanks, that's very nice.  I'm not yet up to date with this week's
articles, but I've seen that Doug will try to reconstruct the few
missing templates in the next months, that's also good.

>> But for LTRU, it may also be time to consider a change to make
>> this obligation clearer in 4646bis?
 
> Clear obligations would be deeply appreciated.

ACK.  Do you need that also for the existing "pre-4646" templates,
<http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/> ?  IMO it would be
nice to have all registered templates on your new list, old or new,
variant or grandfathered.  Plus all "explicit" (= reviewed by the
subtag reviev list) modifications, so far that's Debbie's comment
wrt the Channel Islands and IM for the UK record.

At some point in time there will be an update of an update of a
variant (or similar), so maybe add dates to your new list, or use
another way to handle future "collisions".

Frank




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Addison Phillips wrote:
 
> FWS is not defined by RFC 4234, as LWSP is, and the effect is
> essentially the same.

It's not, LWSP can be harmful:  LWSP allows lines consisting of
only "trailing" white space with a semantical difference from
"really empty" lines.

Defining FWS without this undesirable "feature" is simple, just
pick the RFC 2822 definition and remove its <obs-FWS>:

| FWS = ([*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP)  ; Folding white space

After that s/LWSP/FWS/g = replace "all" LWSP by FWS, but that's 
only the one found by Chris in -05.  IOW you could also get rid
of LWSP by inserting the proper FWS directly:

-   field-body = *(ASCCHAR/LWSP)
+   field-body = *(ASCCHAR / ([*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP))

And if you hate TABs (with those "Unicadets" I never know... ;-) 
you could just say SP instead of WSP:

+   field-body = *(ASCCHAR / ([*SP CRLF] 1*SP))

Frank (certainly no fan of TABs in the language subtag registry)




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Chris Newman wrote:

> I wanted to make sure it's intentional to allow whitespace-only
> folded lines.

Thanks.  IIRC we discussed it for RFC 4646, but somehow we let it
slip through.  IMO a bug without a corresponding paragraph in the
security considerations, but we do NOT need pseudo-empty lines
for the purposes of the registry.  <FWS> is as always much better
than <LWSP>.

Frank

P.S. for 4234bis fans, I hope we'll get a caveat in the ABNF STD:
<http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.general/24801>




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Addison Phillips wrote:
 
> Or should I just put the production into the ABNF?

With that approach some minutes ago I arrived at:

|   field-body = *(ASCCHAR / ([*SP CRLF] 1*SP))

But that's still not what we really want, it allows
adjacent ... FWS FWS ... with the same issue as LWSP.

What we really want are non-empty ASCCHAR sequences
separated by FWS:

|   field-body = *([FWS] 1*ASCCHAR)

Eliminating the FWS and TABs again this should be:

|   field-body = *( [[*SP CRLF] 1*SP] 1*ASCCHAR )

Frank




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Subject: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
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On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 10:27:12PM -0700,
 Doug Ewell <dewell@adelphia.net> wrote 
 a message of 39 lines which said:

> Regarding the whole issue of IANA archiving the registration forms,
> I think the new page at IANA looks great

Yes.

> Over the next 2 months or so, I intend to go back through the
> ietf-languages archives, dig up the registration forms for all the
> variants registered since the Language Subtag Registry went live in
> October 2005, retrofit whatever changes were made before the subtag
> was registered, and post them all on the ietf-languages list with an
> eye toward sending them to IANA.

Many thanks, this is an excellent idea. You have my support (yes, I
understand you would have preferred actual work but support is better
than nothing.)


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Frank Ellermann wrote:
> 
> Eliminating the FWS and TABs again this should be:
> 
> |   field-body = *( [[*SP CRLF] 1*SP] 1*ASCCHAR )
> 

Yup. Got that subtlety on the second look: the field-body is followed by 
CRLF in the record production, so we want it to end with non-whitespace 
characters (especially of the empty line variety).

I'm not sure that LWSP rises all the way to the level of a bug. The only 
fields really affected are Comments or maybe some ridiculous 
Description, where excessive whitespace is merely ugly, not fatal. 
Still, I'm happy to have the correction.

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:

>> I'd rather go the other direction and work on eliminating the rest of 
>> the form or putting less emphasis on it, since, sending two items to 
>> IANA and having them maintain them using separate processes is 
>> potentially cumbersome and adds no value.
>
> A unified process (IANA gets the registration form, archives it 
> publicly, plucks the record out and adds it to the LSR) works for me.

That one worries me.  IANA would be asked to pick item 3 ("Record 
Requested") from the completed form, reformat a long-enough Comment or 
Description to use hex NCRs and 72-character limits and two-space 
continuation, and add their own Added date (along with the File-Date 
which they already change).  Can they do all this automatically?  I'd 
hate to go back to the days when a new Registry got released with errors 
and we had to go back and have them fix it.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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Frank Ellermann <nobody at xyzzy dot claranet dot de> wrote:

> ACK.  Do you need that also for the existing "pre-4646" templates, 
> <http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/> ?  IMO it would be nice 
> to have all registered templates on your new list, old or new, variant 
> or grandfathered.  Plus all "explicit" (= reviewed by the subtag 
> reviev list) modifications, so far that's Debbie's comment wrt the 
> Channel Islands and IM for the UK record.

The registration forms for tags registered under RFC 1766 and 3066 are 
already archived in the old directory.  I think it would be a mistake 
(not to mention a great deal more work) to try to make those 
registrations fit the new model.  We could, of course, ask IANA to copy 
them as-is to the new archive, but that would raise more questions about 
why "these" forms are so different from "those" forms, and why the old 
ones refer to complete tags instead of subtags (a distinction that is 
already hard enough to communicate to people).

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> The registration forms for tags registered under RFC 1766 and 3066 are 
> already archived in the old directory.  I think it would be a mistake 
> (not to mention a great deal more work) to try to make those 
> registrations fit the new model.  

+1.  1766 and 3066 were previous epochs: no point in trying to fix
them up now.

-- 
At the end of the Metatarsal Age, the dinosaurs     John Cowan
abruptly vanished. The theory that a single         cowan@ccil.org
catastrophic event may have been responsible        http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
has been strengthened by the recent discovery of
a worldwide layer of whipped cream marking the
Creosote-Tutelary boundary.             --Science Made Stupid


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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> That one worries me.  IANA would be asked to pick item 3 ("Record 
> Requested") from the completed form, reformat a long-enough Comment or 
> Description to use hex NCRs and 72-character limits and two-space 
> continuation, and add their own Added date (along with the File-Date 
> which they already change).  Can they do all this automatically?   

I'm assuming that all this would already be the case, ideally by
the submitter, in practice by the Official Doug.

-- 
You annoy me, Rattray!  You disgust me!         John Cowan
You irritate me unspeakably!  Thank Heaven,     cowan@ccil.org
I am a man of equable temper, or I should       http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
scarcely be able to contain myself before
your mocking visage.            --Stalky imitating Macrea


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Addison Phillips wrote:
 
> I'm not sure that LWSP rises all the way to the level of a bug.

Nor me.  But looking in my awk script I find it as potential bug
(in my script):

#### unfold field body ############################################
/^[\t ]/       {    BODY = BODY " " STRIP( $0 )
                    next
               }
#### garbage ######################################################
               {    exit FATAL( $0 )
               }

A "really empty" line would end up in the catchall "garbage" case,
and not continue through the "unfold field body" blurb.  So IF we
would have a folded line consisting of only trailing white space,
as permitted in the 4646 syntax, and IF that trailing white space
wouldn't survive the IANA procedure creating records, THEN my awk
script would scream FATAL and give up.

Of course we don't do this in practice, but then it's also okay to
document what we mean.  If we kill the TABs all I've to do for 
4646bis is to delete some \t.  And I better do this today before
I forget it... ;-)

Frank




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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 12:36:12 2007
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Doug Ewell wrote:

> We could, of course, ask IANA to copy them as-is to the new archive

Yes, or leave them where they are.  When I go to their new list with
links it doesn't matter where they really are - as long at the list
offers the tags with working links.

> why "these" forms are so different from "those" forms, and why the
> old ones refer to complete tags instead of subtags (a distinction
> that is already hard enough to communicate to people).

Point.  Maybe their new list could simply offer one link to the old
directory.  This kind of micro-management of the IANA website is of
course no business for 4646bis, it's merely a "feature request":

If users want to know who registered i-lux, or similiar questions.

Frank




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Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 19:17:30 -0700
From: Chris Newman <Chris.Newman@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-05
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You could reference FWS from RFC 2822.  Although that's a bit more complex 
because it includes the obsolete grammar from 822.  Might be simpler to just 
include FWS if the WG chooses to make this change.

                - Chris

Addison Phillips wrote on 5/10/07 11:34 -0700:

> Hm... yes, I see it now. Yes, that makes sense.
>
> Is FWS formally defined somewhere? Or should I just put the production into
> the ABNF?
>
> Addison
>
> Chris Newman wrote:
>> Please double-check your understanding of the RFC 2822-based ABNF I
>> mentioned. It's a bit obscure, but it is semantically identical to the
>> current ABNF except that it forbids whitespace-only folded lines because
>> that's been an interoperability problem in some cases.  Specifically,
>> this case (using < to indicate end-of-line):
>>
>> Foo: bar<
>> <
>> baz<
>>
>> Is permitted by LWSP, but not by FWS.  I do understand that the ABNF for
>> FWS is a bit more obscure in order to eliminate that case, so perhaps it
>> doesn't matter in for this document.  But I wanted to make sure it's
>> intentional to allow whitespace-only folded lines.
>>
>>                - Chris
>>
>> Addison Phillips wrote on 5/10/07 9:35 -0700:
>>
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>
>>> No, that's not a mistake. Your proposal would allow folding whitespace
>>> following the colon, but no spaces in the body of the value or (the main
>>> purpose of LWSP in the production) to wrap lines.
>>>
>>> Also, FWS is not defined by RFC 4234, as LWSP is, and the effect is
>>> essentially the same.
>>>
>>> Addison
>>>
>>> Chris Newman wrote:
>>>> Quick question:
>>>>
>>>> Looking at the definition for "field-body":
>>>>
>>>>   field-body = *(ASCCHAR/LWSP)
>>>>
>>>> Was the actual intention:
>>>>
>>>>   field-body = *([FWS] 1*ASCCHAR)
>>>>
>>>>   FWS = [*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>>
>>>>                - Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ltru mailing list
>>>> Ltru@ietf.org
>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>>
>>> --
>>> Addison Phillips
>>> Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
>>>
>>> Internationalization is an architecture.
>>> It is not a feature.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ltru mailing list
>>> Ltru@ietf.org
>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
>
> Internationalization is an architecture.
> It is not a feature.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 13:08:02 2007
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Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:07:41 -0700
From: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
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Subject: [Ltru] draft-06 of ietf-ltru-4646bis...
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Dear Editors,

Please find attached draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-06 in text format.

Best Regards,

Addison (for the editors)

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

--------------070301090805030300080604
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Doug Ewell wrote:
> 
> That one worries me.  IANA would be asked to pick item 3 ("Record 
> Requested") from the completed form, reformat a long-enough Comment or 
> Description to use hex NCRs and 72-character limits and two-space 
> continuation, and add their own Added date (along with the File-Date 
> which they already change).  Can they do all this automatically?  I'd 
> hate to go back to the days when a new Registry got released with errors 
> and we had to go back and have them fix it.
> 

Actually, the text is pretty clear: the LSR must send the form with the 
*exact* record (NCRs, line length limits, and all) embedded in it. It is 
"record requested", after all.

I massaged the text in section 5.1 (IANA considerations) to ensure that 
the dates thing was clear. Again, the LSR supplies the *exact* record to 
add/update. Note that the 'Added' field represents the *original* add 
date of the subtag to the registry. A change to the record would not 
change the field.

Given the new version of the instructions (please look and comment as 
appropriate), I actually think IANA's job might even be easier... but 
the LSR (probably via their "Official Doug") need to ensure that they 
follow the RFC......

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Tags for Identifying Languages
	Author(s)	: A. Phillips, M. Davis
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-06.txt
	Pages		: 69
	Date		: 2007-5-11
	
This document describes the structure, content, construction, and
   semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to
   indicate the language used in an information object.  It also
   describes how to register values for use in language tags and the
   creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange.

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Addison Phillips wrote:

>>|   field-body = *( [[*SP CRLF] 1*SP] 1*ASCCHAR )
[...]
> Still, I'm happy to have the correction.

In -06 you say:

|     field-body = *(([*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP) 1*ASCCHAR)

ITYM square brackets [[*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP] here, or
do you want mandatory white space after the colon?

It might be actually a good idea...

Frank




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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 12 03:33:26 2007
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
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John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:

>> That one worries me.  IANA would be asked to pick item 3 ("Record 
>> Requested") from the completed form, reformat a long-enough Comment 
>> or Description to use hex NCRs and 72-character limits and two-space 
>> continuation, and add their own Added date (along with the File-Date 
>> which they already change).  Can they do all this automatically?
>
> I'm assuming that all this would already be the case, ideally by the 
> submitter, in practice by the Official Doug.

No, what I mean is this:

Recently the Reviewer and ietf-languages group agreed to register a 
variant subtag for a particular orthography of Belarusian.  To do this, 
we submitted the form below, whose format is specified in RFC 4646, 
Section 3.3:

---begin example---
LANGUAGE SUBTAG MODIFICATION
File-Date: 2007-04-27
%%
Type: variant
Subtag: tarask
Description: Belarusian in Taraskievica orthography
Added: 2007-04-27
Prefix: be
Comments: The subtag represents Branislau Taraskievic's Belarusian
  orthography as published in "Bielaruski klasycny pravapis" by Juras
  Buslakou, Vincuk Viacorka, Zmicier Sanko, and Zmicier Sauka (Vilnia-
  Miensk 2005).
%%

---end example---

This form was sent in an e-mail whose Subject line was:

    NEW-INSERT LANGUAGE SUBTAG MODIFICATION for "tarask"

The word "INSERT" is also required by Section 3.3.  If this were a 
change to an existing entry, the Subject line in the e-mail would have 
to contain the word "MODIFY" instead.

Now, in addition to this, we are also sending IANA the complete 
registration form representing this entry, starting from the original as 
submitted by the proposer, but with all necessary amendments to make it 
match the final registration.  That form is specified in Section 3.5, 
and looks like this:

---begin example---
LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM
1. Name of requester: Jaska Zedlik
2. E-mail address of requester: jz53 @ zedlik.com
3. Record Requested:

   Type: variant
   Subtag: tarask
   Description: Belarusian in Taraskievica orthography
   Prefix: be
   Comments: The subtag represents Branislau Taraskievic's Belarusian
orthography as published in "Bielaruski klasycny pravapis" by Juras
Buslakou, Vincuk Viacorka, Zmicier Sanko, and Zmicier Sauka
(Vilnia-Miensk 2005).

4. Intended meaning of the subtag:

The subtag is intended to represent the Belarusian orthography as
published in "Bielaruski klasycny pravapis" by Juras Buslakou, Vincuk
Viacorka, Zmicier Sanko, and Zmicier Sauka (Vilnia-Miensk 2005).

5. Reference to published description of the language (book or article):

Taraskievic, Branislau. Bielaruskaja gramatyka dla skol. Vilnia: Vyd.
"Bielaruskaha kamitetu", 1929, 5th edition.

Buslakou, Juras; Viacorka, Vincuk; Sanko, Zmicier; Sauka, Zmicier.
Bielaruski klasycny pravapis. Vilnia-Miensk, 2005.

6. Any other relevant information:

Belarusian in Taraskievica orthography became widely used, especially in
Belarusian-speaking Internet segment, but besides this some books and
newspapers are also printed using this orthography of Belarusian.
---end example---

Note that item 3 in this form is mostly equivalent to the finished 
record, except that the Added date is missing (it belongs after 
Description) and the Comments field needed to be reformatted to conform 
to the Registry format.  There is no 72-character line limit in 
registration forms.  Additionally, if this record had included 
characters that had to be escaped with hex NCRs, those might not have 
been present in the registration form and this would have to have been 
fixed.

In short, the finished record may be editorially different from the way 
the same information is provided in the registration form.

Addison had proposed that we could simply send the registration form to 
IANA and they would be able to extract the record correctly from item 3 
and modify the Registry accordingly.  As I wrote before, that worries me 
because of all the additional editorial work that would NO LONGER be 
done by the Official (or Unofficial) Doug, but by IANA.  Although IANA's 
track record of inserting new and changed records has improved 
considerably in the past year and a half, I worry whether these nitty 
details will be handled correctly.  (I observe again that IANA is 
distributing the Registry with LF-terminated lines, even though RFC 4646 
Section 3.1 specifies CRLF.)

In other words, I suggest that ietf-languages should continue to send 
IANA the registration form and the new record as two separate items, and 
require IANA only to archive the former and add the latter into the 
Registry, as they do now.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>

> Of course we don't do this in practice, but then it's also okay to 
> document what we mean.  If we kill the TABs all I've to do for 4646bis 
> is to delete some \t.  And I better do this today before
> I forget it... ;-)

I guess I must have missed something.  What TABs are you referring to 
that need to be killed?  There are no tab characters in the Registry.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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Doug Ewell wrote:

> I observe again that IANA is distributing the Registry with
> LF-terminated lines, even though RFC 4646 Section 3.1 specifies CRLF

Cheat:     [[Kids, don't try this on a Mac, *NIX, or Linux box]]
<ftp://ftp.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry;type=a>

Frank




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Doug Ewell wrote:
 
> I guess I must have missed something.  What TABs are you referring to
> that need to be killed?  There are no tab characters in the Registry.

The old syntax used LWSP:
   field-body = *(ASCCHAR/LWSP)

LWSP is defined in RFC 4234:
   LWSP       = *(WSP / CRLF WSP)

The -06 syntax uses WSP:
   field-body = *(([*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP) 1*ASCCHAR)

WSP is defined in RFC 4234:
    WSP       = SP / HTAB

Even if there is no HT in the registry at the moment all tools doing
something with it are supposed to handle tab characters as white space.

Frank




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Frank Ellermann <nobody at xyzzy dot claranet dot de> wrote:

> The old syntax used LWSP:
>   field-body = *(ASCCHAR/LWSP)
>
> LWSP is defined in RFC 4234:
>   LWSP       = *(WSP / CRLF WSP)
>
> The -06 syntax uses WSP:
>   field-body = *(([*WSP CRLF] 1*WSP) 1*ASCCHAR)
>
> WSP is defined in RFC 4234:
>    WSP       = SP / HTAB
>
> Even if there is no HT in the registry at the moment all tools doing
> something with it are supposed to handle tab characters as white 
> space.

Now I know I'm missing something.  If LWSP is defined in terms of WSP, 
which is defined in terms of HTAB, then where does the -06 syntax 
introduce a problem with HTAB that doesn't already exist?

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>

>> I observe again that IANA is distributing the Registry with 
>> LF-terminated lines, even though RFC 4646 Section 3.1 specifies CRLF
>
> Cheat:     [[Kids, don't try this on a Mac, *NIX, or Linux box]]
> <ftp://ftp.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry;type=a>

I don't have any difficulty converting any combination of CR, LF, NEL, 
LS, PS to any other.  But IANA doesn't publish a link to the FTP 
resource, only to the HTTP resource.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 12 15:54:34 2007
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> In short, the finished record may be editorially different from the way 
> the same information is provided in the registration form.

Quite so.  However, there is nothing to stop you doing your editorial
work on the whole registration form and letting IANA extract the
record from it as is, rather than sending the registration form
edited one way and the record edited another way.

> Addison had proposed that we could simply send the registration form to 
> IANA and they would be able to extract the record correctly from item 3 
> and modify the Registry accordingly.  As I wrote before, that worries me 
> because of all the additional editorial work that would NO LONGER be 
> done by the Official (or Unofficial) Doug [...].

Sure it would, just on the whole registration form.

> In other words, I suggest that ietf-languages should continue to send 
> IANA the registration form and the new record as two separate items, and 
> require IANA only to archive the former and add the latter into the 
> Registry, as they do now.

I don't actually have a problem either way; I'm just pointing out that
these particular objections don't actually have force.

-- 
Do what you will,                       John Cowan
   this Life's a Fiction                cowan@ccil.org
And is made up of                       http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
   Contradiction.  --William Blake


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Doug Ewell wrote:

> where does the -06 syntax introduce a problem with HTAB that 
> doesn't already exist?

It doesn't, we could only decide to get rid of it, replacing
WSP by SP.  

A (maybe unintentional) new feature of the -06 syntax is that
at least one WSP after the colon is required.  At the moment
(4646) you could write "comment:some text", with -06 it has 
to be "comment: some text" (examples).  Intentional or not, I
like that new feature.

Frank





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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 12 16:18:26 2007
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John Cowan wrote:
> 
>> In short, the finished record may be editorially different from the way 
>> the same information is provided in the registration form.
> 
> Quite so.  However, there is nothing to stop you doing your editorial
> work on the whole registration form and letting IANA extract the
> record from it as is, rather than sending the registration form
> edited one way and the record edited another way.
> 
>> Addison had proposed that we could simply send the registration form to 
>> IANA and they would be able to extract the record correctly from item 3 
>> and modify the Registry accordingly.  As I wrote before, that worries me 
>> because of all the additional editorial work that would NO LONGER be 
>> done by the Official (or Unofficial) Doug [...].
> 
> Sure it would, just on the whole registration form.
> 
>> In other words, I suggest that ietf-languages should continue to send 
>> IANA the registration form and the new record as two separate items, and 
>> require IANA only to archive the former and add the latter into the 
>> Registry, as they do now.
> 
> I don't actually have a problem either way; I'm just pointing out that
> these particular objections don't actually have force.
> 

+1

This is why I did it this way. Sending two items to IANA (especially if 
the record is allowed to be different from the form in some way!!) is 
complicated and asking for trouble. Such as: what happens when the 
record and the form differ is some substantive way?

Since the form contains the record, it is better for all concerned if we 
focus attention on the form. Note too that submission of the form is 
different from discussion of the record's contents. This should make it 
easier to track the state of a request (although it appears that Michael 
hasn't paid particular attention to the details of the formal process, 
such as the nature of requests, the time periods, and what he is 
required to do/not do when one comes in).

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 12 16:23:22 2007
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Michael Everson wrote on ietf-languages:


> >And also that Frank may modify his request if you reject an earlier request:
 >
 > Whee! Then it can go on forever and ever and ever...

Michael has a point here. Should we add text saying:

"More than two attempts to request a subtag that has been rejected for 
reasons other than the syntax of the form or record requested MAY be 
rejected outright, without a waiting period, by the Language Subtag 
Reviewer."

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 12 16:31:22 2007
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] [Fwd: Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying
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Addison Phillips scripsit:

> "More than two attempts to request a subtag that has been rejected for 
> reasons other than the syntax of the form or record requested MAY be 
> rejected outright, without a waiting period, by the Language Subtag 
> Reviewer."

Le Roy (i.e. Michael, not me) s'advisera.

-- 
A witness cannot give evidence of his           John Cowan
age unless he can remember being born.          cowan@ccil.org
  --Judge Blagden                               http://www.ccil.org/~cowan


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 12 16:58:46 2007
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
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Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

> This is why I did it this way. Sending two items to IANA (especially 
> if the record is allowed to be different from the form in some way!!) 
> is complicated and asking for trouble. Such as: what happens when the 
> record and the form differ is some substantive way?

I thought that's why we were going to start sending the final form to 
the ietf-languages list for a week-long inspection period.

> Since the form contains the record, it is better for all concerned if 
> we focus attention on the form. Note too that submission of the form 
> is different from discussion of the record's contents. This should 
> make it easier to track the state of a request

If that is preferred, I suggest we reorganize the form so that the 
section that is supposed to contain the actual record (currently section 
3) contains it *precisely*, with no leading spaces, and with 
placeholders for all possible fields, including an "Added" field which 
would be filled in by us before the final inspection period.

I'm just trying to prevent gratuitous editorial discrepancies.  I 
understand you're trying to prevent substantive discrepancies, and both 
of us are right.

If you want to make IANA's job easier in processing these forms, that is 
fine, and if you want to make the list's job easier in understanding and 
verifying them, that is fine too.  Please don't spend too much time 
worrying about making my job easier in preparing them and forwarding 
them to Michael.  It's not that hard.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:

> 639-3/RA (i.e. SIL) has said that it will announce in July the outcome
> of 129 change requests (the list closed as of March), some of which
> affect us:  for example, 2006-044 merges Yinglish into English,
> retiring 'yib'; 2006-001 splits Belgian Sign language into French
> Belgian Sign and Dutch Belgian Sign, retiring 'bvs'; and 2006-129
> converts Catalan into a macrolanguage, encompassing "Catalan
> (individual language)" and "Valencian".

I wish I'd known about that last one before we registered 'valencia'.

> IMHO it would be way better if we waited to find out which of these
> changes go through and which don't, so that we don't end up adding
> records to the LSR only to deprecate them immediately thereafter.
> Remember that if 639-3/RA makes a change, we *must* follow them; there
> is no choice in the matter by the terms of 4646bis.

Absolutely correct.  "Deprecated in infancy" is almost as bad as
"deprecated at birth."

OK, expect to see draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-02 sometime in July, I guess.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> >and 2006-129
> >converts Catalan into a macrolanguage, encompassing "Catalan
> >(individual language)" and "Valencian".
> 
> I wish I'd known about that last one before we registered 'valencia'.

Don't assume that any particular change will actually go through.

-- 
Ambassador Trentino: I've said enough. I'm a man of few words.
Rufus T. Firefly: I'm a man of one word: scram!
        --Duck Soup                     John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun May 13 05:32:42 2007
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From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] [Fwd: Re: Registration request: "mis" comment
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[as a technical contributor]

Obviously Michael has a point here, but what's the difference
between writing "because this is the same request for the third
time, I outrighly reject it" and writing "I can't see any
substantial differences between this request and the earier
one, so I'll reject it unless somebody comes up with some new
very convincing argument or data."

And note that the later can be done on the second round, no
need to wait for the third round.

So overall, I think it's clear to me that this shouldn't be
a big problem, and so I'm against adding additional language.

Regards,    Martin.

At 05:23 07/05/13, Addison Phillips wrote:
>Michael Everson wrote on ietf-languages:
>
>
>> >And also that Frank may modify his request if you reject an earlier request:
> >
> > Whee! Then it can go on forever and ever and ever...
>
>Michael has a point here. Should we add text saying:
>
>"More than two attempts to request a subtag that has been rejected for reasons other than the syntax of the form or record requested MAY be rejected outright, without a waiting period, by the Language Subtag Reviewer."
>
>Addison
>
>-- 
>Addison Phillips
>Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
>
>Internationalization is an architecture.
>It is not a feature.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ltru mailing list
>Ltru@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun May 13 07:45:02 2007
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Addison Phillips wrote:

>>> And also that Frank may modify his request if you reject an earlier request:

>> Whee! Then it can go on forever and ever and ever...

> Michael has a point here.

You can measure my precise distance from more than one appeal about
the performance of the language review list in general and its weird
by appointment structure of persons dubbed as "official Doug" (but
obviously not the real Doug) in *_nanometers_*

The "mis" case is quite simple, this subtag is obviously harmful,
as stated in the -05 and -06 drafts.  For unclear reasons Mark tries
to protect his mis-use as long as possible. maybe hoping that the
ISO 639 folks sanction it as "whatever, mainly a synonym of 'und'".

It's IMNSHO opinion perfectly okay to post a review request, update
it twice (on the same day), taking into acoount additional info
provided by Stephane, John, and Peter, and after four weeks with
no ongoing discussion to expect a clear *_decision_*

Should I appeal the missing decision directly, or is trying again
with subject "registration request" after "review request" allowed ?
It doesn't help when the expert subtag reviewer doesn't know what
a subtag is in the first place.

Disgusted,

 Frank




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John Cowan wrote:

>> I wish I'd known about that last one before we registered 'valencia'.

> Don't assume that any particular change will actually go through.

Rejecting variant registration requests because there _might_ be new
RFCs in 2008 deprecating them would be anyway an appealable offense.




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Hi -

> From: "Frank Ellermann" <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>
> To: <ltru@lists.ietf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 5:05 AM
> Subject: [Ltru] Re: 639-3 updates
>
> John Cowan wrote:
> 
> >> I wish I'd known about that last one before we registered 'valencia'.
> 
> > Don't assume that any particular change will actually go through.
> 
> Rejecting variant registration requests because there _might_ be new
> RFCs in 2008 deprecating them would be anyway an appealable offense.
...

Is this a request to change or clarify sections 3.2, 3.5, or 3.7, of the
registry draft, (the parts that currently mention appeals) currently
found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-06.txt?
If so, specific text for discussion here would be helpful.

If this is a threat to appeal the handling of a specific registration
request by the language subtag reviewer, it does not belong on
the ltru@ietf.org mailing list.

Randy
ltru co-chair



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> The "mis" case is quite simple, this subtag is obviously harmful,

Not more than any of the other collection codes (which form an
unstated hierarchy).

> as stated in the -05 and -06 drafts.  For unclear reasons Mark tries

The other collection codes are equally "harmful", even though
they have smaller coverages.

I don't see why you single out 'mis'. And as I mentioned before, this
should be dealt with in 4645bis/4646bis, not via individual registrations,
and should be dealt with in the same way for all collection codes.

> to protect his mis-use as long as possible. maybe hoping that the

"mis-use", hmm...

Have you detected any major misuse of 'mis'? If so, where? 'mis' is
undoubtedly the "top level" collection code, if you consider the
(implicit) hierarchy of collection codes. Any change of that would
not be backwards compatible, and would destabilise the IETF language
codes. And *none* of the collection codes should be used (when
4645bis and 4646bis are approved), given the expected 4645bis data.
(You cannot say "shall not be used" for any of them, for stability.)

> ISO 639 folks sanction it as "whatever, mainly a synonym of 'und'".

Well, it is very close to meaning the same as 'und', from a coverage
point of view.

I'm perfectly happy with the rejection, and any repeated rejection,
of requests to update comments for any of the collection codes
(and 'mis' is a collection code) on the ietf-languages list.

And all that should be said in the comment field (or some new field)
about each of the collection codes is that it is a collection code.
The text in 4646bis should deal with the "should not" aspect.

	/kent k



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun May 13 19:13:35 2007
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

While I have some sympathy for the proposal to permit summary
rejection of re-submitted requests, I agree with Martin's reasoning.
Furthermore, I'd add that if one agrees that "I can't see any
substantial differences between this request and the earier
one, so I'll reject it unless somebody comes up with some new
very convincing argument or data" is a potentially reasonable
response, then it's actually advantageous to *not* reject the
request immediately - taking one's time would reduce the
potential DoS-like effect of such requests.

Randy

> From: "Martin Duerst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> To: "Addison Phillips" <addison@yahoo-inc.com>; "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 2:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [Fwd: Re: Registration request: "mis" commentclarifyingmeaning]
>
> [as a technical contributor]
>
> Obviously Michael has a point here, but what's the difference
> between writing "because this is the same request for the third
> time, I outrighly reject it" and writing "I can't see any
> substantial differences between this request and the earier
> one, so I'll reject it unless somebody comes up with some new
> very convincing argument or data."
>
> And note that the later can be done on the second round, no
> need to wait for the third round.
>
> So overall, I think it's clear to me that this shouldn't be
> a big problem, and so I'm against adding additional language.
>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
> At 05:23 07/05/13, Addison Phillips wrote:
> >Michael Everson wrote on ietf-languages:
> >
> >
> >> >And also that Frank may modify his request if you reject an earlier request:
> > >
> > > Whee! Then it can go on forever and ever and ever...
> >
> >Michael has a point here. Should we add text saying:
> >
> >"More than two attempts to request a subtag that has been rejected for reasons other than the syntax of the form or record
requested MAY be rejected outright, without a waiting period, by the Language Subtag Reviewer."
> >
> >Addison
...




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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun May 13 22:54:55 2007
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To: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
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Kent Karlsson scripsit:

> 'mis' is undoubtedly the "top level" collection code, if you consider
> the (implicit) hierarchy of collection codes.

"Undoubtedly" means there is no doubt or dispute.  There *is*
doubt, since that is not the meaning used by MARC.

> And *none* of the collection codes should be used (when
> 4645bis and 4646bis are approved), given the expected 4645bis data.
> (You cannot say "shall not be used" for any of them, for stability.)

I disagree.  They represent certain kinds of partial knowledge, as
I have posted many times.

It's fine to disagree with me, but it's not fine to claim that everyone
(including me) agrees with you.

-- 
What asininity could I have uttered     John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
that they applaud me thus?              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
        --Phocion, Greek orator


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 03:42:51 2007
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Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
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John Cowan wrote:
> Kent Karlsson scripsit:
> 
> > 'mis' is undoubtedly the "top level" collection code, if you consider
> > the (implicit) hierarchy of collection codes.
> 
> "Undoubtedly" means there is no doubt or dispute.  There *is*
> doubt, since that is not the meaning used by MARC.

As I have explained before, 'mis' must work like all the other
collection codes, otherwise the system of using collection codes
does not work out.

Each of them have a coverage, and in the case of 'mis' that logically,
from the description in ISO 639, *must* be all natural languages,
and a use recommendation: don't use a collection code if there is a
more specific code available. All the collection codes work the same.

'mis' by necessity, as it is described in ISO 639, covers all natural
languages (but just one in each instance of use). ISO 639 itself does
not leave any room for another interpretation. MARC is but only one
application of ISO 639. The use in MARC is in no way contrary to ISO 639,
but its description in the MARC page you referred to some time ago,
is very, very incomplete.

ISO 639 itself does a much better job at describing 'mis' and other
collection codes in principle. Unfortunately none of the ISO 639
parts give the collection code hierarchy.

> > And *none* of the collection codes should be used (when
> > 4645bis and 4646bis are approved), given the expected 4645bis data.
> > (You cannot say "shall not be used" for any of them, for stability.)
> 
> I disagree.  They represent certain kinds of partial knowledge, as
> I have posted many times.

They could be used that way, but that goes beyond what ISO 639
recommends. ISO 639 does not recommend using a collection code 
when a more specific code is available. Partial knowledge is not 
mentioned. If it is to be ok to use a collection code for denoting
partial knowledge, then that must be an explicit extension in
4646bis, as it does not follow from the description of collection
codes in ISO 639.

	/kent k



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Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
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From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]

>> 'mis' is undoubtedly the "top level" collection code, if you consider
>> the (implicit) hierarchy of collection codes.
>
> "Undoubtedly" means there is no doubt or dispute.  There *is*
> doubt, since that is not the meaning used by MARC.

And is not the meaning intended in ISO 639-2, as I expect shall soon be cla=
rified.



Peter


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Peter Constable wrote:
>>> 'mis' is undoubtedly the "top level" collection code, if you consider
>>> the (implicit) hierarchy of collection codes.
>>
>> "Undoubtedly" means there is no doubt or dispute.  There *is*
>> doubt, since that is not the meaning used by MARC.
>
> And is not the meaning intended in ISO 639-2, as I expect shall soon
> be clarified.

Then that will be a backwards incompatible change.

And it being the top level collection code is in no way incompatible with
the list that is given for MARC: take all the languages the MARC group
were interested in (a subset of the coverage of 'mis', given that 639-3
did not exist then), remove all the languages that have a more specific
code **in MARC**, and you're left with a snapshot of what they use(d)
'mis' for. (I would be surprised if they arrived at their list in some,
in principle, different way.)

	/kent k



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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:01:40 -0700
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
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From: Kent Karlsson [mailto:kent.karlsson14@comhem.se]

> Then that will be a backwards incompatible change.
>
> And it being the top level collection code...

It seems like your claim of the change being backwards incompatible is base=
d on a premise of your view of what 'mis' is intended to mean. If that prem=
ise is wrong...

As for the premise, you have asserted it is a top-level collection, but tha=
t is not how the people who created it and are responsible for maintaining =
it perceive it. I think a first principle of stability for a coding standar=
d is that the semantics of a coded entity cannot be defined external to the=
 standards-developing organization that coded it except in the case of pre-=
existing usage, in which case the semantic is defined in terms of all pre-e=
xisting usage with which the newly-coded entity is associated. In this case=
, the pre-existing usage is MARC alone, and it certainly is not a top-level=
 collection in MARC.


> is in no way incompatible with
> the list that is given for MARC: take all the languages the MARC group
> were interested in (a subset of the coverage of 'mis', given that 639-3
> did not exist then), remove all the languages that have a more specific
> code **in MARC**, and you're left with a snapshot of what they use(d)
> 'mis' for. (I would be surprised if they arrived at their list in some,
> in principle, different way.)

But the question is: did MARC see the ISO 639-2 ID 'mis' as being a top-lev=
el, all-inclusive collection and then decide that, for their context, it wo=
uld be used for a specific set of cases? Clearly not. MARC defined 'mis' fi=
rst, and defined it as denoting a list of exceptions -- *not* as a top-leve=
l collection. Quoting Milicent Wewerka of LOC, "The original intention of '=
mis' was to be available for languages that were not included elsewhere in =
the code list as individual languages or as part of a group code." AFAICT, =
your notion of a top-level collection strikes MARC folk as completely forei=
gn.



Peter


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Subject: [Ltru] Re: 639-3 updates
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Randy Presuhn wrote:

> Is this a request to change or clarify sections 3.2, 3.5, or 3.7, of
> the registry draft, (the parts that currently mention appeals)

[3.5]
| When the two-week period has passed, the Language Subtag Reviewer
| MUST take one of the following actions:
|
| o  Explicitly accept the request and forward the form containing the
|    record to be inserted or modified to iana@iana.org according to
|    the procedure described in Section 3.3.
| o  Explicitly reject the request because of significant objections
|    raised on the list or due to problems with constraints in this
|    document (which MUST be explicitly cited).
| o  Extend the review period by granting an additional two-week
|    increment to permit further discussion.  After each two-week
|    increment, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST indicate on the list
|    whether the registration has been accepted, rejected, or extended.
|
| Note that the Language Subtag Reviewer MAY raise objections on the
| list if he or she so desires.  The important thing is that the
| objection MUST be made publicly.
[...]
| Decisions made by the Language Subtag Reviewer MAY be appealed to the
| IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF decisions [RFC2026].
| This includes a decision to extend the review period or the failure
| to announce a decision in a clear and timely manner.

Section 3.5 is very clear, and it's in essence the same as in RFC 4646.

> If this is a threat to appeal the handling of a specific registration
> request by the language subtag reviewer, it does not belong on
> the ltru@ietf.org mailing list.

The "valencia" variant subtag was registered 2007-03-06.  Its rejection
with reason "might be deprecated by an unpublished RFC 4645bis based on
an unpublished version of 639-3 in the future" was a hypothetical case:
<http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.ltru/7843>

RFC 4646 had a rule (3.8) that all pending requests are finished under
the old (3066) rules, 4646bis has the same rule (as MUST) for pending
4646 requests.  The requesters can decide that they're willing to wait
for some potential future event.  If they're not willing to wait, and
their requested variant is rejected only because it might be deprecated
by a possible future language subtag, they can appeal that decision as
speculation in violence of 3.8.

Frank




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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 14:36:52 2007
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:39:43 -0700
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Kent Karlsson" <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
> To: "'John Cowan'" <cowan@ccil.org>
> Cc: <ltru@lists.ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:44 AM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
...
> ISO 639 itself does a much better job at describing 'mis' and other
> collection codes in principle. Unfortunately none of the ISO 639
> parts give the collection code hierarchy.
...

The key to your argument is the assumption that there is a collection
code hierarchy.  Yet you write that that  presumed hierarchy is not  given
in any part of ISO 639.  That would seem to defeat your own argument.

Randy



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 14:41:33 2007
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: 639-3 updates
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Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org

Frank -

As is abundantly clear from the texts you cite, ltru@ietf.org
is NOT the place for such an appeal.  So unless you're
requesting a change to the procedure, this discussion
does NOT belong on the ltru WG mailing list.  Furthermore,
if what you desire is a dialog with the language subtag
reviewer, the correct mailing list is ietf-languages@iana.org,
NOT the ltru WG mailing list.

Randy
ltru co-chair

> From: "Frank Ellermann" <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>
> To: <ltru@lists.ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 9:03 AM
> Subject: [Ltru] Re: 639-3 updates
>

> Randy Presuhn wrote:
> 
> > Is this a request to change or clarify sections 3.2, 3.5, or 3.7, of
> > the registry draft, (the parts that currently mention appeals)
> 
> [3.5]
> | When the two-week period has passed, the Language Subtag Reviewer
> | MUST take one of the following actions:
> |
> | o  Explicitly accept the request and forward the form containing the
> |    record to be inserted or modified to iana@iana.org according to
> |    the procedure described in Section 3.3.
> | o  Explicitly reject the request because of significant objections
> |    raised on the list or due to problems with constraints in this
> |    document (which MUST be explicitly cited).
> | o  Extend the review period by granting an additional two-week
> |    increment to permit further discussion.  After each two-week
> |    increment, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST indicate on the list
> |    whether the registration has been accepted, rejected, or extended.
> |
> | Note that the Language Subtag Reviewer MAY raise objections on the
> | list if he or she so desires.  The important thing is that the
> | objection MUST be made publicly.
> [...]
> | Decisions made by the Language Subtag Reviewer MAY be appealed to the
> | IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF decisions [RFC2026].
> | This includes a decision to extend the review period or the failure
> | to announce a decision in a clear and timely manner.
> 
> Section 3.5 is very clear, and it's in essence the same as in RFC 4646.
> 
> > If this is a threat to appeal the handling of a specific registration
> > request by the language subtag reviewer, it does not belong on
> > the ltru@ietf.org mailing list.
> 
> The "valencia" variant subtag was registered 2007-03-06.  Its rejection
> with reason "might be deprecated by an unpublished RFC 4645bis based on
> an unpublished version of 639-3 in the future" was a hypothetical case:
> <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.ltru/7843>
> 
> RFC 4646 had a rule (3.8) that all pending requests are finished under
> the old (3066) rules, 4646bis has the same rule (as MUST) for pending
> 4646 requests.  The requesters can decide that they're willing to wait
> for some potential future event.  If they're not willing to wait, and
> their requested variant is rejected only because it might be deprecated
> by a possible future language subtag, they can appeal that decision as
> speculation in violence of 3.8.
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 14:49:19 2007
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To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> The key to your argument is the assumption that there is a collection
> code hierarchy.  Yet you write that that  presumed hierarchy is not  given
> in any part of ISO 639.  That would seem to defeat your own argument.

639-2 does not *state* that the hierarchy exists, but I assert as a fact,
not an assumption, that it *does* exist.  This can be backed up by
external evidence.  This is of the same order as the assertion that
'eng' is the code element for the English language (as opposed to
some unspecified language called "English" by someone).

-- 
John Cowan  http://ccil.org/~cowan  cowan@ccil.org
All "isms" should be "wasms".   --Abbie


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 15:23:49 2007
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From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>
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Subject: [Ltru] Re: 639-3 updates
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Randy Presuhn wrote:

> As is abundantly clear from the texts you cite, ltru@ietf.org
> is NOT the place for such an appeal.

Od course not.  But the topic of rejecting a requested variant
only because it might be deprecated later was brought up, and
I've stated that that can be appealed.  If you don't disagree
with that statement I don't know what you're getting at.
 
> if what you desire is a dialog with the language subtag
> reviewer, the correct mailing list is ietf-languages@iana.org,

The tag in question was NOT rejected, there was no problem with
"valencia".  The _hypothetical_ case here was started by John's 
remark that "valencia" might become a regular language subtag,
with a conclusion:
 
| IMHO it would be way better if we waited to find out which of
| these changes go through and which don't, so that we don't end
| up adding records to the LSR only to deprecate them immediately
| thereafter.

Doug's reply:

| I wish I'd known about that last one before we registered 'valencia'.
[...]
| "Deprecated in infancy" is almost as bad as "deprecated at birth."

John's qualifier:

| Don't assume that any particular change will actually go through.

And after that I added my statement that rejecting requests only
because they might be later deprecated can result in an appeal.

Nobody's forced to wait for potential future events with their
registration requests for variants like "valencia".  Exceptions
are attempts to register a language subtag - then they have to
present the evidence that the ISO 639 RA rejected it - or attempts
to register UN numbers for countries not listed by ISO 3066, and
for these exceptions than can take some time.  In all other cases
the timeout for decisions is two weeks.  Not July, continuing the
hypothetical example of a pending "valencia" request today.

Frank




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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 15:24:42 2007
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Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Use of LWSP in ABNF -- consensus call
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Hi -

fwd fyi

Randy

> From: "Lisa Dusseault" <lisa@osafoundation.org>
> To: "Apps Discuss" <discuss@apps.ietf.org>; "IETF General Discussion Mailing List" <ietf@ietf.org>; <ietf-dkim@mipassoc.org>
> Cc: "Dave Crocker" <dcrocker@bbiw.net>; "Paul Overell" <paul.overell@thus.net>
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:10 PM
> Subject: Use of LWSP in ABNF -- consensus call
>
> The IESG reviewed <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-crocker- 
> rfc4234bis-00.txt> for publication as Internet Standard and would  
> like to know if there is consensus to recommend against the use of  
> LWSP in future specifications, as it has caused problems recently in  
> DKIM and could cause problems in other places.
> 
> Some discussion on this point already:
>   - http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg46048.html
>   - http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/discuss/current/msg00463.html
>   - http://mipassoc.org/pipermail/ietf-dkim/2007q1/007295.html
>   - https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi? 
> command=view_comment&id=66440  (in this tracker comment, Chris Newman  
> recommended to remove LWSP, but for backward-compatibility it's  
> probably better to keep it and recommend against use)
> 
> Thanks for your input,
> Lisa Dusseault
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf mailing list
> Ietf@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 15:27:37 2007
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: 639-3 updates
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Hi -

Forgive me for being dense.  On this list we're supposed to be working
on an update to BCP 47.  Exactly what change is being proposed?

Randy

> From: "Frank Ellermann" <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>
> To: <ltru@lists.ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:23 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] Re: 639-3 updates
>
> Randy Presuhn wrote:
> 
> > As is abundantly clear from the texts you cite, ltru@ietf.org
> > is NOT the place for such an appeal.
> 
> Od course not.  But the topic of rejecting a requested variant
> only because it might be deprecated later was brought up, and
> I've stated that that can be appealed.  If you don't disagree
> with that statement I don't know what you're getting at.
>  
> > if what you desire is a dialog with the language subtag
> > reviewer, the correct mailing list is ietf-languages@iana.org,
> 
> The tag in question was NOT rejected, there was no problem with
> "valencia".  The _hypothetical_ case here was started by John's 
> remark that "valencia" might become a regular language subtag,
> with a conclusion:
>  
> | IMHO it would be way better if we waited to find out which of
> | these changes go through and which don't, so that we don't end
> | up adding records to the LSR only to deprecate them immediately
> | thereafter.
> 
> Doug's reply:
> 
> | I wish I'd known about that last one before we registered 'valencia'.
> [...]
> | "Deprecated in infancy" is almost as bad as "deprecated at birth."
> 
> John's qualifier:
> 
> | Don't assume that any particular change will actually go through.
> 
> And after that I added my statement that rejecting requests only
> because they might be later deprecated can result in an appeal.
> 
> Nobody's forced to wait for potential future events with their
> registration requests for variants like "valencia".  Exceptions
> are attempts to register a language subtag - then they have to
> present the evidence that the ISO 639 RA rejected it - or attempts
> to register UN numbers for countries not listed by ISO 3066, and
> for these exceptions than can take some time.  In all other cases
> the timeout for decisions is two weeks.  Not July, continuing the
> hypothetical example of a pending "valencia" request today.
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 15:35:21 2007
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To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: 639-3 updates
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> Forgive me for being dense.  On this list we're supposed to be working
> on an update to BCP 47.  Exactly what change is being proposed?

This is about the timing of the next draft of 4645bis;
stripped of the side issues, Doug's going to wait until July
so that any ISO 639-3 changes made then will be reflected.

-- 
Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML      John Cowan
Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker       cowan@ccil.org
saying "No information items inside".           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
        --Eve Maler


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 16:03:38 2007
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Randy Presuhn wrote:

> Exactly what change is being proposed?

My proposal is to change *_nothing_*.  If folks wish to register a
variant that might be obsoleted in July or whenever, then trying
to persuade them to wait with their request, because a new subtag
"deprecated in infancy" most likely isn't what they want, is fine.

And if they don't wish to wait for this potential event, maybe for
a good reason like expecting that this will never happen, or for a
bad reason like wanting their very own last minute subtag, then
the RFC 4646 or later 4646bis rules should be followed as they are,
with a decision after "two weeks" (where I don't care if it's some
days more depending on the discussion or similar delays).

But a clear decision is REQUIRED, otherwise nobody including the
proponents and the reviewers know when the more or less two weeks
ended, and what the final outcome was, let alone the reasons for a
rejection if that's the unknown outcome.

Frank




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: 639-3 updates
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Hi -

> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: 639-3 updates
>
> Randy Presuhn scripsit:
> 
> > Forgive me for being dense.  On this list we're supposed to be working
> > on an update to BCP 47.  Exactly what change is being proposed?
> 
> This is about the timing of the next draft of 4645bis;
> stripped of the side issues, Doug's going to wait until July
> so that any ISO 639-3 changes made then will be reflected.
...

Ah.  Now it all makes sense.  Thank you for your patience.

Randy



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 16:30:07 2007
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John Cowan wrote:

> Doug's going to wait until July so that any ISO 639-3 changes
> made then will be reflected.

That's fine, and if all goes well the RFC with an updated registry
might be available at the end of this year or in early 2008.

For the hypothetical "valencia" case (in March) rejecting this
request because there might be something better nine months later
would be wrong.  The proponents can have reasons why they want a
variant "now" (in March) without waiting for a possible language 
nine months later.

Because the real (non-hypothetical) variant exists 4645bis might
have to deprecate it in favour of the future language subtag, and
that's no big problem.  There are already some grandfathered tags
deprecated by future language subtags in 4645bis-00.  One more is
only a problem if we forget about it.  Unlikely after this thread.

Frank




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Randy Presuhn wrote:

> The key to your argument is the assumption that there is a collection
> code hierarchy.  Yet you write that that  presumed hierarchy 
> is not  given
> in any part of ISO 639.  That would seem to defeat your own argument.

Not at all. There is no hierarchy that is **given explicitly**, but
there is certainly an implicit one. Vide:

	(set of 'gem' [Germanic] languages)  subset
		(set of 'ine' [Indo_European] languages) subset
			(set of 'mis' [natural] languages) subset
				(set of stuff covered by 'und', i.e. anything)

(but 'und' is a special code and goes outside the hierarchy of the
collection codes).

Another example:

	(set of 'cpp' [Portuguese based creole and pidgin] languages) subset
		(set of 'crp' [creole and pidgin] languages) subset
			(set of 'mis' [natural] languages) subset
				(set of stuff covered by 'und', i.e. anything)

With the exception of 'mis' (which must cover all natural languages)
the rest of the hierarchy must be figured out via some other sources
of information. But the intention is certainly a hierarchy, otherwise
none of the collection codes would make any sense.

	/kent k



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Peter Constable wrote:
> > From: Kent Karlsson
> 
> > Then that will be a backwards incompatible change.
> >
> > And it being the top level collection code...
> 
> It seems like your claim of the change being backwards
> incompatible is based on a premise of your view of what
> 'mis' is intended to mean. If that premise is wrong...
> 
> As for the premise, you have asserted it is a top-level
> collection, but that is not how the people who created
> it and are responsible for maintaining it perceive it.

See below.

> I think a first principle of stability for a coding
> standard is that the semantics of a coded entity cannot
> be defined external to the standards-developing
> organization that coded it except in the case of
> pre-existing usage, in which case the semantic is
> defined in terms of all pre-existing usage with which
> the newly-coded entity is associated. In this case, the
> pre-existing usage is MARC alone, and it certainly is
> not a top-level collection in MARC.

See below.

Note again(!) that the use of 'mis' in MARC is in no way
contrary to it being the top level collection code. Indeed,
as you say below, that is how the LOC defined it (though
they did not call it that).

> > is in no way incompatible with
> > the list that is given for MARC: take all the languages the MARC group
> > were interested in (a subset of the coverage of 'mis', given that 639-3
> > did not exist then), remove all the languages that have a more specific
> > code **in MARC**, and you're left with a snapshot of what they use(d)
> > 'mis' for. (I would be surprised if they arrived at their list in some,
> > in principle, different way.)
> 
> But the question is: did MARC see the ISO 639-2 ID 'mis'
> as being a top-level, all-inclusive collection and then
> decide that, for their context, it would be used for a
> specific set of cases? Clearly not. MARC defined 'mis'
> first,

Sure.

> and defined it as denoting a list of exceptions --
> *not* as a top-level collection.

See below. Note that all of the collection codes work
in the same way in this respect.

Whoever wrote the ISO 639-2 text got this right apparently.
That text has flaws, but this is not one of them.

> Quoting Milicent Wewerka
> of LOC, "The original intention of 'mis' was to be available
> for languages that were not included elsewhere in the code
> list as individual languages or as part of a group code."

[IDENTICALLY EQUAL TO] (top level collection code, with the
use recommendation (now) given in ISO 639-2). And ISO 639-2
has 'mis' as a collection code; reclassifying it as "special"
would not really change anything.

> AFAICT, your notion of a top-level collection strikes MARC
> folk as completely foreign.

Strange. Given that that say it is the top-level collection,
but in other words.

		/kent k



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 17:03:38 2007
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Having dinked with it some more, I'd like to propose this version of 
this ABNF:

--
registry   = record *("%%" CRLF record)
record     = 1*( field-name *SP ":" *SP field-body CRLF )
field-name = (ALPHA / DIGIT) [*(ALPHA / DIGIT / "-") (ALPHA / DIGIT)]
field-body = *([[*SP CRLF] 1*SP] 1*ASCCHAR)
ASCCHAR    = %x21-25 ; ASCII printable characters
            / %x27-7E ; AMPERSAND is %x26
            / UNICHAR
UNICHAR    = "&amp;#x" 2*6HEXDIG ";"
--

Note that I make the production equivalent to FWS optional. I also 
reformatted ASCCHAR for legibility, adding the note about ASCII 
printables. And, yes, I disallow HTAB. I don't see that this should 
cause a ruckus.

Any comments?

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" <ltru@lists.ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 14:45:20 -0700
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
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From: Kent Karlsson [mailto:kent.karlsson14@comhem.se]

>> Quoting Milicent Wewerka
>> of LOC, "The original intention of 'mis' was to be available
>> for languages that were not included elsewhere in the code
>> list as individual languages or as part of a group code."
>
> [IDENTICALLY EQUAL TO] (top level collection code, with the
> use recommendation (now) given in ISO 639-2).

Those are *not* identically equal. MARC gave an *extensive* definition for =
'mis': a specific enumeration of referents. You are giving an *intensive* d=
efinition that would have yielded the same extension, but that does not mea=
n that they employed your intensive definition.


>> AFAICT, your notion of a top-level collection strikes MARC
>> folk as completely foreign.
>
> Strange. Given that that say it is the top-level collection,
> but in other words.

Not strange at all, given that they do *not* say it is the top-level collec=
tion anywhere in any form, direct or otherwise.



Peter


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 15 04:32:59 2007
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Subject: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
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Kent Karlsson <kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se> wrote:

> I don't see why you single out 'mis'. And as I mentioned before, this 
> should be dealt with in 4645bis/4646bis, not via individual registrations, 
> and should be dealt with in the same way for all collection codes.

What part of 4645bis do you think deals with defining or clarifying 
interpretations of specific subtags?  Do you think it is similar to the 
explanation in Section 2.2 of how "sgn" is treated for syntactic purposes as 
a macrolanguage, or the paragraph in Section 2.4 about deprecating the 
meaningless "zh-min" tag?

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages




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Doug Ewell wrote:
> 
> Addison had proposed that we could simply send the registration form to 
> IANA and they would be able to extract the record correctly from item 3 
> and modify the Registry accordingly.  As I wrote before, that worries me 
> because of all the additional editorial work that would NO LONGER be 
> done by the Official (or Unofficial) Doug, but by IANA.  

There shouldn't *be* any additional editorial work. While the form in 
the current draft is incomplete, the record requested can have an Added 
date and other fields, making the job one of mere cut-and-paste. I don't 
see why this is that difficult.

On the other hand, I am *very* worried by the idea that we'll be sending 
two versions of the record. If the "record requested" doesn't match the 
"record registered", isn't that a problem?

> 
> In other words, I suggest that ietf-languages should continue to send 
> IANA the registration form and the new record as two separate items, and 
> require IANA only to archive the former and add the latter into the 
> Registry, as they do now.
> 

Have you had a chance to study the changes I made in the current draft 
yet? I think I might have address your issues while sticking with a "one 
item send" model.

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 07:05:16 -0700
From: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-05
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Here Frank is talking about his implementation of a registry parser.

Addison

Doug Ewell wrote:
> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>
> 
>> Of course we don't do this in practice, but then it's also okay to 
>> document what we mean.  If we kill the TABs all I've to do for 4646bis 
>> is to delete some \t.  And I better do this today before
>> I forget it... ;-)
> 
> I guess I must have missed something.  What TABs are you referring to 
> that need to be killed?  There are no tab characters in the Registry.
> 
> -- 
> Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 15 11:26:16 2007
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From: "Doug Ewell" <dewell@roadrunner.com>
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Subject: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
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Kent Karlsson <kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se> wrote:

> Not at all. There is no hierarchy that is **given explicitly**, but there 
> is certainly an implicit one. Vide:
>
> (set of 'gem' [Germanic] languages)  subset
> (set of 'ine' [Indo_European] languages) subset
> (set of 'mis' [natural] languages) subset
> (set of stuff covered by 'und', i.e. anything)

> With the exception of 'mis' (which must cover all natural languages) the 
> rest of the hierarchy must be figured out via some other sources of 
> information. But the intention is certainly a hierarchy, otherwise none of 
> the collection codes would make any sense.

I don't remember if I said before "this is my last post on this subject," 
but this really will be my last post on this subject.

I do not agree with Kent's model in the slightest.  "Miscellaneous" is, BY 
ITS NATURE, a different concept from all of the other "collection" concepts. 
Intuitively it means "everything that doesn't fit into some other category."

I would very much like it if ISO 639 JAC or MARC or somebody would issue 
some sort of official statement about the intended purpose of "mis" so we 
could put this discussion to rest.  I think such a statement will support my 
view of "mis", but whether it does or not, we should accept it and move on. 
We are spending great gobs of time debating these particular angels and this 
particular pin, and meanwhile there are other issues to resolve before RFC 
4646bis will be ready for WGLC.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 15 12:43:26 2007
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:20:00 -0700
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Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

>> Addison had proposed that we could simply send the registration form to 
>> IANA and they would be able to extract the record correctly from item 3 
>> and modify the Registry accordingly.  As I wrote before, that worries me 
>> because of all the additional editorial work that would NO LONGER be done 
>> by the Official (or Unofficial) Doug, but by IANA.
>
> There shouldn't *be* any additional editorial work. While the form in the 
> current draft is incomplete, the record requested can have an Added date 
> and other fields, making the job one of mere cut-and-paste. I don't see 
> why this is that difficult.

Formatting the records for the Registry involves making sure that there are 
no physical lines longer than 72 characters, that all non-ASCII characters 
and apostrophe are hex-escaped, that each field starts in column 1, and that 
continuation lines have two leading spaces (though I may be wrong about the 
last two; I don't see them in the RFC or current draft although I know we 
talked about them).

The template in Section 3.5 (RFC and current draft) has three leading spaces 
before each field name, which requires reformatting to conform to Registry 
syntax as I understand it.  There is nothing in the registration 
instructions to address the other points above, so each form -- even the 
most carefully filled-out one -- would require non-trivial editing before 
IANA could simply pluck the record out of it.

> On the other hand, I am *very* worried by the idea that we'll be sending 
> two versions of the record. If the "record requested" doesn't match the 
> "record registered", isn't that a problem?

But isn't that why you wanted the final form sent to the list for a one-week 
review period?  To ensure it matched the agreed-upon record?

> Have you had a chance to study the changes I made in the current draft 
> yet? I think I might have address your issues while sticking with a "one 
> item send" model.

I scanned the last half of 3.5  ("study" would not be the word) and didn't 
see anything that addresses my concerns about formatting.  Software that 
reads the Registry and interprets its contents needs to rely on a consistent 
format; that's why we changed from the loose format of RFC 3066.  We should 
arrange things to ensure the best chance of IANA inserting the record 
correctly the first time.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages





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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 15 16:06:10 2007
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Doug Ewell wrote:
 
> Formatting the records for the Registry involves making sure
> that there are no physical lines longer than 72 characters,
> that all non-ASCII characters and apostrophe are hex-escaped,
> that each field starts in column 1, and
> that continuation lines have two leading spaces
[...]
> I may be wrong about the last two; I don't see them in the
> RFC or current draft although I know we talked about them

One space to start a folded "continuation" line is enough.  Two
might be clearer for readers, and two are certainly allowed,
like eight would be allowed for a tab-like indentation. 

Yes, a field-name starts in column 1, that's the only (and
therefore important) difference from a folded line.

> The template in Section 3.5 (RFC and current draft) has three
> leading spaces before each field name, which requires 
> reformatting to conform to Registry syntax as I understand it.

The template is organized to be readable.  Cut and paste at the
obvious column (3 or 6) should be simple for the folks at IANA
for a complete record.  They'd then also insert a %%-delimiter 
for new records, or they'd replace an old record between these
delimiters.  And they'd update the file-date "record".  That's
no rocket science, the existing records are a good example how
it's supposed to work.  

They've already "explored" one plausible way to get this wrong,
once.  They've no reason to run into exactly the same problem
again, ever.

> each form -- even the most carefully filled-out one -- would
> require non-trivial editing before IANA could simply pluck
> the record out of it.

Folding at column 3 + 72 = 75 for an effect of 72 after copy
and paste might be non-trivial, but they get a folded recorded
within the form.  If you think that that's too dangerous you
can remove these three extra columns in a submitted form.  You
would also remove the additional three columns introduced by
the RFC layout, if requesters haven't done this already.  

Frank




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Addison Phillips wrote:

> registry   = record *("%%" CRLF record)

+1 (no change)

> record     = 1*( field-name *SP ":" *SP field-body CRLF )

You could remove the second *SP now, but keeping it is okay.

> field-name = (ALPHA / DIGIT) [*(ALPHA / DIGIT / "-") (ALPHA / DIGIT)]

+1 (no change)

> field-body = *([[*SP CRLF] 1*SP] 1*ASCCHAR)

+1 (no more mandatory SP after the colon as in -06)

> ASCCHAR    = %x21-25 ; ASCII printable characters
>             / %x27-7E ; AMPERSAND is %x26
>             / UNICHAR

The old one-liner was IMO clearer.

> UNICHAR    = "&amp;#x" 2*6HEXDIG ";"

That's still wrong, a 4646 bug, a fixed version was published in
<http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-klensin-unicode-escapes-03.txt>

| EmbeddedUnicodeChar =   %x26.23.78 2*6HEXDIG ";" ; starts with "&#x"

The issue isn't the &amp; - that's only a side-effect of posting
the raw XML input.  The issue is the "x" under 4234 or 4234bis
rules, it implicitly means "'x' or 'X'" (compare <privateuse>).

A hex. XML NCR can't be &#X102345; with an upper case 'X', it
has to be &#x102345; with a lower case 'x'.  Putting it together
I arrive at:

| ASCCHAR    = %x21-25 / %x27-7E / UNICHAR ; Note: AMPERSAND is %x26
| UNICHAR    = %x26.23.78 2*6HEXDIG ";"    ; starts with "&#x"

Frank




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Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
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Doug Ewell wrote:
> What part of 4645bis do you think deals with defining or clarifying 
> interpretations of specific subtags?

We are in this case talking about clause 4.1 (Choice of Language Tag)
of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-06, which has text on this subject.

	/kent k



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 15 17:54:29 2007
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 Doug wrote:

> I would very much like it if ISO 639 JAC or MARC or somebody 
> would issue some sort of official statement about the 
> intended purpose of "mis" so we could put this discussion to 
> rest.  I think such a statement will support my view of 
> "mis", but whether it does or not, we should accept it and move on. 

Patience is a virtue... I believe it is on its way via the ISO 639 JAC :-)

Best

Debbie Garside

www.geolang.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@roadrunner.com] 
> Sent: 15 May 2007 16:26
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment 
> clarifying meaning
> 
> Kent Karlsson <kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se> wrote:
> 
> > Not at all. There is no hierarchy that is **given explicitly**, but 
> > there is certainly an implicit one. Vide:
> >
> > (set of 'gem' [Germanic] languages)  subset (set of 'ine' 
> > [Indo_European] languages) subset (set of 'mis' [natural] 
> languages) 
> > subset (set of stuff covered by 'und', i.e. anything)
> 
> > With the exception of 'mis' (which must cover all natural 
> languages) 
> > the rest of the hierarchy must be figured out via some 
> other sources 
> > of information. But the intention is certainly a hierarchy, 
> otherwise 
> > none of the collection codes would make any sense.
> 
> I don't remember if I said before "this is my last post on 
> this subject," 
> but this really will be my last post on this subject.
> 
> I do not agree with Kent's model in the slightest.  
> "Miscellaneous" is, BY ITS NATURE, a different concept from 
> all of the other "collection" concepts. 
> Intuitively it means "everything that doesn't fit into some 
> other category."
> 
> I would very much like it if ISO 639 JAC or MARC or somebody 
> would issue some sort of official statement about the 
> intended purpose of "mis" so we could put this discussion to 
> rest.  I think such a statement will support my view of 
> "mis", but whether it does or not, we should accept it and move on. 
> We are spending great gobs of time debating these particular 
> angels and this particular pin, and meanwhile there are other 
> issues to resolve before RFC 4646bis will be ready for WGLC.
> 
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  
> UTN #14 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 
> 





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Doug Ewell wrote:
> I do not agree with Kent's model in the slightest. "Miscellaneous" is, BY 
> ITS NATURE, a different concept from all of the other "collection" concepts. 
> Intuitively it means "everything that doesn't fit into some 
> other category."

And 'gem' BY ITS NATURE "intuitively" means "every Germanic language
[extent] that doesn't fit into some other category [use rec.]".

There is no difference in principle.

I feel like as if I was trying to explain "0" when some are only used to
a number system where "0" is unknown. But it is quite obvious once you've
had the aha, but apparently very hard before one has had the aha (compare
Roman numerals and other ancient numbering systems).

	/kent k



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From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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[chair hat on]

Given the statement below from Debbie, the fact that this
discussion has used an enormous amount of emails, the fact
that currently arguments are mostly repeated, and my
understanding that much of the discussion is about
underlying models rather than about practical consequences,
I herewith declare to put this discussion on hold.

If you have any additional contributions, please write
them up, but don't send them as long as the discussion
is on hold.

If you have any information that may suggest that the
discussion should be resumed, please send such information
to the co-chairs.

Many thanks for your cooperation in assuring smooth
and efficient WG progress.

Regards,    Martin.

At 06:54 07/05/16, Debbie Garside wrote:
> Doug wrote:
>
>> I would very much like it if ISO 639 JAC or MARC or somebody 
>> would issue some sort of official statement about the 
>> intended purpose of "mis" so we could put this discussion to 
>> rest.  I think such a statement will support my view of 
>> "mis", but whether it does or not, we should accept it and move on. 
>
>Patience is a virtue... I believe it is on its way via the ISO 639 JAC :-)
>
>Best
>
>Debbie Garside



#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     



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Doug Ewell wrote:
> 
> The template in Section 3.5 (RFC and current draft) has three leading 
> spaces before each field name, which requires reformatting to conform to 
> Registry syntax as I understand it.  There is nothing in the 
> registration instructions to address the other points above, so each 
> form -- even the most carefully filled-out one -- would require 
> non-trivial editing before IANA could simply pluck the record out of it.

Yes: I believe I said we should fix the form.

> 
>> On the other hand, I am *very* worried by the idea that we'll be 
>> sending two versions of the record. If the "record requested" doesn't 
>> match the "record registered", isn't that a problem?
> 
> But isn't that why you wanted the final form sent to the list for a 
> one-week review period?  To ensure it matched the agreed-upon record?

No. Emphatically no.

I wanted the final form (originally "record", since I championed doing 
away with the form) on the list for some period of time to ensure that 
what was "approved" by the LSR was well-known, clear, and had been 
available for comment by list members. Approval of some form of the 
request unseen--in some cases even by the requester--is not in keeping 
with an IETF process as I understand it. A requester could quite easily 
consider some of the proposals a perversion of their intent.

The form that's approved should contain that record that's approved. 
There should be sufficient time for list members to comment on the 
specific form being registered, not just the general "idea" behind the 
registration.

> 
>> Have you had a chance to study the changes I made in the current draft 
>> yet? I think I might have address your issues while sticking with a 
>> "one item send" model.
> 
> I scanned the last half of 3.5  ("study" would not be the word) and 
> didn't see anything that addresses my concerns about formatting.  

No, we need to fix the form.

> Software that reads the Registry and interprets its contents needs to 
> rely on a consistent format; that's why we changed from the loose format 
> of RFC 3066.  We should arrange things to ensure the best chance of IANA 
> inserting the record correctly the first time.

The *registry* format is not in question here. It is whether we submit 
the form, the record, the form-and-the-record, or what.

Personally, I think the form is an anachronism, but I want to publish 
4646bis sometime.

If we *must* send the form to IANA, let us not fall into the trap of 
sending two things. Let us fix the form to be suitable and be done with it.

IMHO,

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 16 00:38:06 2007
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From: "Doug Ewell" <dewell@roadrunner.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Frank Ellermann <nobody at xyzzy dot claranet dot de> wrote:

>> record     = 1*( field-name *SP ":" *SP field-body CRLF )
> 
> You could remove the second *SP now, but keeping it is okay.

Pardon me for asking, but why do we allow a space after the field-name?

>> field-body = *([[*SP CRLF] 1*SP] 1*ASCCHAR)
>
> +1 (no more mandatory SP after the colon as in -06)

And why do we allow a field-body to begin with CRLF?

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 16 00:43:35 2007
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Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

> If we *must* send the form to IANA, let us not fall into the trap of 
> sending two things. Let us fix the form to be suitable and be done with 
> it.

All right, if we agree to fix the form in such a way that IANA has NO 
character-wise editing to do, only copying and pasting of whole lines, then 
I can get on board with this.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 16 00:44:20 2007
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To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: HTAB
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Frank Ellermann scripsit:

> > UNICHAR    = "&amp;#x" 2*6HEXDIG ";"
> 
> That's still wrong, a 4646 bug, a fixed version was published in
> <http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-klensin-unicode-escapes-03.txt>
> 
> | EmbeddedUnicodeChar =   %x26.23.78 2*6HEXDIG ";" ; starts with "&#x"
> 
> The issue isn't the &amp; - that's only a side-effect of posting
> the raw XML input.  The issue is the "x" under 4234 or 4234bis
> rules, it implicitly means "'x' or 'X'" (compare <privateuse>).

Why is that a bug?  It seems to me that the same rules that apply
to XML hex character references should apply: namely, x or X
before the hex digits, which themselves can be 0-9, a-f, or A-F.

-- 
It was impossible to inveigle           John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Into offering the slightest apology
For his Phenomenology.                      --W. H. Auden, from "People" (1953)


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 16 01:14:06 2007
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> The template in Section 3.5 (RFC and current draft) has three leading 
> spaces before each field name, which requires reformatting to conform to 
> Registry syntax as I understand it.  There is nothing in the 
> registration instructions to address the other points above, so each 
> form -- even the most carefully filled-out one -- would require 
> non-trivial editing before IANA could simply pluck the record out of it.

I think we should just go ahead and dump the three leading spaces.

-- 
One Word to write them all,             John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
  One Access to find them,              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
One Excel to count them all,
  And thus to Windows bind them.                --Mike Champion


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 16 02:49:52 2007
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To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>, Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>
From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: HTAB
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At 13:44 07/05/16, John Cowan wrote:
>Frank Ellermann scripsit:

>> The issue isn't the &amp; - that's only a side-effect of posting
>> the raw XML input.  The issue is the "x" under 4234 or 4234bis
>> rules, it implicitly means "'x' or 'X'" (compare <privateuse>).
>
>Why is that a bug?  It seems to me that the same rules that apply
>to XML hex character references should apply: namely, x or X
>before the hex digits, which themselves can be 0-9, a-f, or A-F.

Because XML Numeric Character References do NOT allow uppercase 'X'.
Please check the spec if you don't believe it.

[If you want to know why, I guess the best person to ask is Tim Bray.]

Regards,   Martin.



#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     



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At 14:14 07/05/16, John Cowan wrote:
>Doug Ewell scripsit:
>
>> The template in Section 3.5 (RFC and current draft) has three leading 
>> spaces before each field name, which requires reformatting to conform to 
>> Registry syntax as I understand it.  There is nothing in the 
>> registration instructions to address the other points above, so each 
>> form -- even the most carefully filled-out one -- would require 
>> non-trivial editing before IANA could simply pluck the record out of it.
>
>I think we should just go ahead and dump the three leading spaces.

Are you proposing that the RFC to be (4646bis) the
LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM without leading spaces?

In that case, I think we have to check two things:
1) Check whether (and how) this can be done with xml2rfc.
   Addison, can you give it a try?
2) Check with the RFC Editor whether they'd allow this,
   assuming that the WG (and if necessary the AD and the IESG)
   support it for good reasons.

Once we get your confirmation, we have checked 1), and I don't hear
anything strongly again this direction, I'll check with the RFC Editor.

Regards,   Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     



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Thanks, Mark. =20
=20
I made some very slight adjustments to the article, and hopefully it is =
ok to publish now.
=20
I18n core folks, please speak out if you don't feel we should agree to =
publish this during our telecon next Tuesday.
=20
RI
=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
=20
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
=20
=20


  _____ =20

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] =
On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: 20 April 2007 21:00
To: Richard Ishida
Cc: www-international@w3.org; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: For review: Tagging text with no language


Richard, getting back to the topic of XML, it sounds like we have three =
cases, illustrated by the following example:

<p xml:lang=3D"en">There are three cases:
  <span>foo</span>,
  <span xml:lang=3D"">foo</span>,
  <span xml:lang=3D"und">foo</span>
</p>

In the first foo construction, we are saying that it inherits the =
language "en". The second and third construction are equivalent: we are =
overriding the "en" setting, and saying that foo is undetermined with =
regard to language. The difference between them is that:=20


*	the second construction can't be used in XHTML (or any other case =
where a DTD or schema requires a value).=20

*	the third construction can always be used, but shouldn't be used if =
the second can be.=20


Mark


On 4/11/07, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org> wrote:=20




http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language

Comments are being sought on this FAQ-based article prior to final =
release. Please send any comments to www-international@w3.org. We expect =
to publish a final version in one to two weeks.



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)=20

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/  <http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/> =

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/








--=20
Mark=20


------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C797D5.2C2C56C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=EF=BB=BF<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16441" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140581115-16052007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =

size=3D2>Thanks, Mark.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140581115-16052007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140581115-16052007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>I made=20
some very slight adjustments to the article, and hopefully it is ok to =
publish=20
now.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140581115-16052007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140581115-16052007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>I18n=20
core folks, please speak out if you don't feel we should agree to =
publish this=20
during our telecon next Tuesday.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140581115-16052007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140581115-16052007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =

size=3D2>RI</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Richard =
Ishida</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Internationalization =
Lead</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>W3C (World Wide Web=20
Consortium)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/">http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida=
/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.w3.org/International/">http://www.w3.org/International=
/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/">http://people.w3.org/rishida/=
blog/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/">http://www.flickr.com/photo=
s/ishida/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> mark.edward.davis@gmail.com=20
  [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark=20
  Davis<BR><B>Sent:</B> 20 April 2007 21:00<BR><B>To:</B> Richard=20
  Ishida<BR><B>Cc:</B> www-international@w3.org; LTRU Working=20
  Group<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: For review: Tagging text with no=20
  language<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>Richard, getting back to the topic of XML, it sounds like =
we have=20
  three cases, illustrated by the following example:<BR><BR>&lt;p=20
  xml:lang=3D"en"&gt;There are three cases:<BR>&nbsp;=20
  &lt;span&gt;foo&lt;/span&gt;,<BR>&nbsp; &lt;span=20
  xml:lang=3D""&gt;foo&lt;/span&gt;,<BR>&nbsp; &lt;span=20
  xml:lang=3D"und"&gt;foo&lt;/span&gt;<BR>&lt;/p&gt;<BR><BR>In the first =
foo=20
  construction, we are saying that it inherits the language "en". The =
second and=20
  third construction are equivalent: we are overriding the "en" setting, =
and=20
  saying that foo is undetermined with regard to language. The =
difference=20
  between them is that: <BR>
  <UL>
    <LI>the second construction can't be used in XHTML (or any other =
case where=20
    a DTD or schema requires a value).
    <LI>the third construction can always be used, but shouldn't be used =
if the=20
    second can be. <BR></LI></UL>Mark<BR><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 4/11/07, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Richard=20
  Ishida</B> &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:ishida@w3.org">ishida@w3.org</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:</SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><BR><BR><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language">http://=
www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language</A><BR><BR>Comments=20
    are being sought on this FAQ-based article prior to final release. =
Please=20
    send any comments to <A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:www-international@w3.org">www-international@w3.org</A>. =
We=20
    expect to publish a final version in one to two=20
    =
weeks.<BR><BR><BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Richard =
Ishida<BR>Internationalization=20
    Lead<BR>W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) <BR><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/">http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida=
/</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.w3.org/International/">http://www.w3.org/International=
/</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/">http://people.w3.org/rishida/=
blog/=20
    </A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/">http://www.flickr.com/photo=
s/ishida/</A><BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR=20
  clear=3Dall><BR>-- <BR>Mark </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:31:42 -0400
To: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: HTAB
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Martin Duerst scripsit:

> Because XML Numeric Character References do NOT allow uppercase 'X'.

My bad.  You're right.  Our use of 'x' is a bug and should be fixed.

-- 
Newbies always ask:                             John Cowan
  "Elements or attributes?                      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Which will serve me best?"                      cowan@ccil.org
  Those who know roar like lions;
  Wise hackers smile like tigers.                   --a tanka, or extended haiku


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Martin Duerst wrote:
> 
> Are you proposing that the RFC to be (4646bis) the
> LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM without leading spaces?
> 
> In that case, I think we have to check two things:
> 1) Check whether (and how) this can be done with xml2rfc.
>    Addison, can you give it a try?

You mean in the generated text format (the way RFCs are formatted)? 
Nope. But somehow the claim that removing the three spaces from the 
record is "non-trivial editing" seems kind of lame.

There are all sorts of ways to address this issue. We can write lint 
tool, for example. Since the requested record is embedded in %% markers, 
it should be easy to run a tool to fix escapes, line breaks, and to fold 
(or unfold) whitespace as needed.



Some other alternatives occur to me:

1. Eliminate the form by incorporating the additional information into 
the record itself. Some of the information in the form is redundant. I 
think we could break it down to adding:

  Requested-by: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
  Reference: Reference to published description
    of the language (book or article) which may include
    URIs, ISBNs, ISSNs, or other information. Like Comment
    only different.

2. Eliminate the form by adding support for file-level comments in the 
registry. These file level comments would contain the form fields. IANA 
could include them in the registry or remove them and just include them 
in the registration request archive:

%% Requested by: Addison Phillips
%% mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com
%% Reference: Reference to published description
%%   of the language (book or article) which may include
%%   URIs, ISBNs, ISSNs, or other information. Like Comment
%%   only different.
%%
Type: variant
Subtag: ...
...
%%

3. Continue to archive request forms, but archive all of them, with 
their disposition. The LSR only forwards the record (as today) to IANA 
for inclusion in the subtag registry. Ideally, a tool is used to 
generate and submit requests so that IANA doesn't have to monitor the 
ietf-languages list. That, or the LSR must submit the request forms. 
This would mean reformatting the request form a bit to aid tracking:

====
LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM
1. Record Requested:
%%
Type:
Subtag:
Description:
Added:
Prefix:
Preferred-Value:
Deprecated:
Suppress-Script:
Comments:
%%
2. Name of requester:
3. E-mail address of requester:
4. Date of Request:
5. Reference to published description
    of the language (book or article):
6. Any other relevant information:

To be filled in by IANA or LSR:

7. Status: (accepted, rejected, open)
8. Action Date:
=====


Any others?

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 16 23:10:45 2007
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: HTAB
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Doug Ewell wrote:
> 
>>> record     = 1*( field-name *SP ":" *SP field-body CRLF )
>>
>> You could remove the second *SP now, but keeping it is okay.
> 
> Pardon me for asking, but why do we allow a space after the field-name?

We allow whitespace after the colon. Most record-jar implementations are 
likely to do the same. It's more pleasing visually and it really isn't 
that big an implementation problem. Basically, after joining lines 
(eating whitespace as we go), we can do a trim() on the field-body. It's 
not that remarkably odd.

I regret not having spent the time between 4646 and now getting 
draft-phillips-record-jar done. It would be much easier to just 
reference that than maintaining all of our own cruft.

> 
>>> field-body = *([[*SP CRLF] 1*SP] 1*ASCCHAR)
>>
>> +1 (no more mandatory SP after the colon as in -06)
> 
> And why do we allow a field-body to begin with CRLF?

We always have and it isn't that big a problem. See above: you join the 
lines anyway and then trim the results. It's not a big deal at 
implementation time.

In practice, of course, the registry will most likely never contain a 
field-body starting with CRLF. However, it is imaginable that the first 
word in the field-body might be very long--perhaps it uses a long 
sequence of Unicode escapes--violating the 72 character limit and thus 
necessitating wrapping down.

Addison
-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 16 23:51:07 2007
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To: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: HTAB
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Addison Phillips scripsit:

> >Pardon me for asking, but why do we allow a space after the field-name?
> 
> We allow whitespace after the colon. 

Sure.  But why *before* the colon?

-- 
If you have ever wondered if you are in hell,         John Cowan
it has been said, then you are on a well-traveled     http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
road of spiritual inquiry.  If you are absolutely     cowan@ccil.org
sure you are in hell, however, then you must be
on the Cross Bronx Expressway.          --Alan Feuer, NYTimes, 2002-09-20


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 17 02:19:56 2007
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From: "Doug Ewell" <dewell@roadrunner.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Archival of registration forms
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 23:16:25 -0700
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Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

> You mean in the generated text format (the way RFCs are formatted)? Nope. 
> But somehow the claim that removing the three spaces from the record is 
> "non-trivial editing" seems kind of lame.

For you and me, definitely trivial.  Perhaps for the new guard at IANA as 
well.

> Some other alternatives occur to me:
>
> 1. Eliminate the form by incorporating the additional information into the 
> record itself. Some of the information in the form is redundant. I think 
> we could break it down to adding:
>
>  Requested-by: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
>  Reference: Reference to published description
>    of the language (book or article) which may include
>    URIs, ISBNs, ISSNs, or other information. Like Comment
>    only different.

Would this go into the Registry along with everything else?

> 2. Eliminate the form by adding support for file-level comments in the 
> registry. These file level comments would contain the form fields. IANA 
> could include them in the registry or remove them and just include them in 
> the registration request archive:
>
> %% Requested by: Addison Phillips
> %% mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com
> %% Reference: Reference to published description
> %%   of the language (book or article) which may include
> %%   URIs, ISBNs, ISSNs, or other information. Like Comment
> %%   only different.
> %%
> Type: variant
> Subtag: ...
> ...
> %%

I like file-level comments, but for file-level information, not for 
something like this.  I'm not crazy about the free-text format either. 
Suddenly alternative 1 doesn't look so bad.

> 3. Continue to archive request forms, but archive all of them, with their 
> disposition. The LSR only forwards the record (as today) to IANA for 
> inclusion in the subtag registry. Ideally, a tool is used to generate and 
> submit requests so that IANA doesn't have to monitor the ietf-languages 
> list. That, or the LSR must submit the request forms. This would mean 
> reformatting the request form a bit to aid tracking:
>
> ====
> LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM
> 1. Record Requested:
> %%
> Type:
> Subtag:
> Description:
> Added:
> Prefix:
> Preferred-Value:
> Deprecated:
> Suppress-Script:
> Comments:
> %%
> 2. Name of requester:
> 3. E-mail address of requester:
> 4. Date of Request:
> 5. Reference to published description
>    of the language (book or article):
> 6. Any other relevant information:
>
> To be filled in by IANA or LSR:
>
> 7. Status: (accepted, rejected, open)
> 8. Action Date:
> =====

This is exactly what I had in mind.  I totally support this.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 17 02:21:47 2007
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: HTAB
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Sorry about re-sending this message with no added content; it's about an 
Outlook Express UI bug.

Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

>>>> record     = 1*( field-name *SP ":" *SP field-body CRLF )
>>>
>>> You could remove the second *SP now, but keeping it is okay.
>>
>> Pardon me for asking, but why do we allow a space after the field-name?
>
> We allow whitespace after the colon. Most record-jar implementations are 
> likely to do the same. It's more pleasing visually and it really isn't 
> that big an implementation problem. Basically, after joining lines (eating 
> whitespace as we go), we can do a trim() on the field-body. It's not that 
> remarkably odd.

I'm not asking about the whitespace after the colon, I'm asking about the 
whitespace before the colon.  I suppose that would be a French style:

    Subtag : example

>> And why do we allow a field-body to begin with CRLF?
>
> We always have and it isn't that big a problem. See above: you join the 
> lines anyway and then trim the results. It's not a big deal at 
> implementation time.
>
> In practice, of course, the registry will most likely never contain a 
> field-body starting with CRLF. However, it is imaginable that the first 
> word in the field-body might be very long--perhaps it uses a long sequence 
> of Unicode escapes--violating the 72 character limit and thus 
> necessitating wrapping down.

That seems contrived, especially since the Reviewer wants to avoid Unicode 
escapes altogether, but I suppose it's conceivable and I won't argue that 
one further.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 17 02:33:24 2007
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John Cowan wrote:
> 
>>> Pardon me for asking, but why do we allow a space after the field-name?
>> We allow whitespace after the colon. 
> 
> Sure.  But why *before* the colon?
> 

Sweet blue muffins! For beauty. And, for that matter, because RFC 4646 
says so and someone may have implemented it by now.

Addison

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Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 17 02:47:03 2007
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Doug Ewell wrote:
> 
>> Some other alternatives occur to me:
>>
>> 1. Eliminate the form by incorporating the additional information into 
>> the record itself. Some of the information in the form is redundant. I 
>> think we could break it down to adding:
>>
...

> 
> Would this go into the Registry along with everything else?

Yes.

> 
>> 2. Eliminate the form by adding support for file-level comments in the 
>> registry. These file level comments would contain the form fields. 
>> IANA could include them in the registry or remove them and just 
>> include them in the registration request archive:
>>
>> %% Requested by: Addison Phillips
>> %% mailto:addison@yahoo-inc.com
>> %% Reference: Reference to published description

> I like file-level comments, but for file-level information, not for 
> something like this.  I'm not crazy about the free-text format either. 
> Suddenly alternative 1 doesn't look so bad.

Yes, but it is a (vile) alternative.

> 
>> 3. Continue to archive request forms, but archive all of them, with 
>> their disposition. The LSR only forwards the record (as today) to IANA 
>> for inclusion in the subtag registry. Ideally, a tool is used to 
>> generate and submit requests so that IANA doesn't have to monitor the 
>> ietf-languages list. That, or the LSR must submit the request forms. 
>> This would mean reformatting the request form a bit to aid tracking:
>>
...

> 
> This is exactly what I had in mind.  I totally support this.
> 

I would just be concerned about the praticality of capturing the forms 
and their status. On the other hand, it might actually help in tracking 
request status. And it would establish a kind of record of what had been 
rejected---not just the things registered.

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 17 03:00:16 2007
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Doug Ewell wrote:
> 
> I'm not asking about the whitespace after the colon, I'm asking about 
> the whitespace before the colon.  I suppose that would be a French style:
> 
>    Subtag : example

I replied to John already: the space before the colon is already with 
us. And it is simple whitespace with no wrapping permitted.

> 
>>> And why do we allow a field-body to begin with CRLF?
>>
>> We always have and it isn't that big a problem. See above: you join 
>> the lines anyway and then trim the results. It's not a big deal at 
>> implementation time.
>>
>> In practice, of course, the registry will most likely never contain a 
>> field-body starting with CRLF. However, it is imaginable that the 
>> first word in the field-body might be very long--perhaps it uses a 
>> long sequence of Unicode escapes--violating the 72 character limit and 
>> thus necessitating wrapping down.
> 
> That seems contrived, especially since the Reviewer wants to avoid 
> Unicode escapes altogether, but I suppose it's conceivable and I won't 
> argue that one further.

The reviewer is courting appeals, in my opinion, on that issue.

And it isn't that far fetched. For a comments line, at 8 characters per 
code point, I get just 7 before you're forced to wrap:

72 - 10 (length of Comments:) / 8 (length of &#x@@@@;) = 7.75

Any script encoded above U+1000 can generate such a comment.

Okay, maybe it is far-fetched that we wouldn't just wrap mid-word.

Really, though, there is a subtlety in constructing the ABNF that way. 
While CRLF is allowed at the start and just never happens to occur 
there, by not putting the construct at the end, you can never have extra 
space at the end. The end of the record *must* be a character. That is, 
there is no "invisible" and yet significant whitespace in the file 
(wrapping whitespace is insignificant).

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 17 15:04:02 2007
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Doug Ewell wrote:

 [s/after/before/]
> I'm not asking about the whitespace after the colon, I'm asking
> about the whitespace before the colon.  I suppose that would be
> a French style:

>     Subtag : example

Yep.  Removing optional spaces before the colon is okay, it's an
anachronism inherited from RFC (2)822.  RFC 2822 obsoleted this:

| optional-field  =       field-name ":" unstructured CRLF
[...]
| 4.5.8. Obsolete optional fields
|
| obs-optional    =       field-name *WSP ":" unstructured CRLF

Nobody moved to reintroduce this ugly construct in 2822upd, we
could get rid of it for 4646bis.

I'm less sure about the record-jar format, aligning the colons
in a fixed column could make sense.

 [initial folding after the colon]
> That seems contrived, especially since the Reviewer wants to
> avoid Unicode escapes altogether

The personal tastes of folks on the review list are just that,
their personal tastes, requesters are free to differ.  We have
"comment:" (8 char.s) or "description:" (12 char.s), and your
personal taste is to add two spaces after the colon.  With that
you get a limit of 72-8-2=62 or 72-12-2=58 ASCII characters for
the first space delimited word.

For a description inherited from some source standard 58 isn't
excessively contrived, with &#x12345; (9 char.s) we're talking
about 6..7 Unicode points outside of the BMP.  With an initial
folding right after the colon we can handle 7..8 Unicode points
above u+FFFF without running into our own limit 72.

Maybe we should remove the limit, and keep the folding only for
bulk updates as by 4645bis (if done "within" I-D constraints).

Folding is simple, but with ordinary readers trying to "unfold"
the registry, who knows, if there's a way to screw up somebody
will explore it sooner or later.

Frank




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Addison Phillips wrote:

> Really, though, there is a subtlety in constructing the ABNF that way.
> While CRLF is allowed at the start and just never happens to occur
> there, by not putting the construct at the end, you can never have extra
> space at the end. The end of the record *must* be a character. That is,
> there is no "invisible" and yet significant whitespace in the file
> (wrapping whitespace is insignificant).

In theory you can get that effect without starting the list with [FWS].

example1A = "Example:" *([FWS] non-empty) CRLF

example2A = "Example:" [*WSP non-empty *([FWS] non-empty)] CRLF

Less ugly if you're free to decree that all fields must have a non-empty
field body - a famous exception would be the BCC field in email:

example1B = "Example:" 1*([FWS] non-empty) CRLF

example2B = "Example:" *WSP non-empty *([FWS] non-empty) CRLF

IMO we want 1A or actually 1B, we have no empty field-bodies.  But for
the record-jar format 1A is more flexible.

Frank




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Addison Phillips wrote:

>>> 3. Continue to archive request forms, but archive all of them, with
>>> their disposition. The LSR only forwards the record (as today) to IANA
>>> for inclusion in the subtag registry. Ideally, a tool is used to
>>> generate and submit requests so that IANA doesn't have to monitor the
>>> ietf-languages list. That, or the LSR must submit the request forms.
>>> This would mean reformatting the request form a bit to aid tracking:

> ...
 
>> This is exactly what I had in mind.  I totally support this.
 
> I would just be concerned about the praticality of capturing the forms
> and their status. On the other hand, it might actually help in tracking
> request status. And it would establish a kind of record of what had been
> rejected---not just the things registered.

Keeping records of rejected or open requests makes me nervous, there 
could be various ways to abuse this for DoS attacks.  You likely want 
the opposite effect, requests rejected immediately as "dupe" with a
pointer to the old decision.  But fine-tining the procedures is kind
of pointless at the moment for the known reasons.

Frank




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: HTAB
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Actually, I'd say the space before the colon is not a question of taste. 
It's what the English language requires and this work is in English. The 
number of spaces afterward is more debatable.

Karen Broome




Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> 
05/17/2007 12:00 PM

To
ltru@lists.ietf.org
cc

Subject
[Ltru] Re: HTAB






Doug Ewell wrote:

 [s/after/before/]
> I'm not asking about the whitespace after the colon, I'm asking
> about the whitespace before the colon.  I suppose that would be
> a French style:

>     Subtag : example

Yep.  Removing optional spaces before the colon is okay, it's an
anachronism inherited from RFC (2)822.  RFC 2822 obsoleted this:

| optional-field  =       field-name ":" unstructured CRLF
[...]
| 4.5.8. Obsolete optional fields
|
| obs-optional    =       field-name *WSP ":" unstructured CRLF

Nobody moved to reintroduce this ugly construct in 2822upd, we
could get rid of it for 4646bis.

I'm less sure about the record-jar format, aligning the colons
in a fixed column could make sense.

 [initial folding after the colon]
> That seems contrived, especially since the Reviewer wants to
> avoid Unicode escapes altogether

The personal tastes of folks on the review list are just that,
their personal tastes, requesters are free to differ.  We have
"comment:" (8 char.s) or "description:" (12 char.s), and your
personal taste is to add two spaces after the colon.  With that
you get a limit of 72-8-2=62 or 72-12-2=58 ASCII characters for
the first space delimited word.

For a description inherited from some source standard 58 isn't
excessively contrived, with &#x12345; (9 char.s) we're talking
about 6..7 Unicode points outside of the BMP.  With an initial
folding right after the colon we can handle 7..8 Unicode points
above u+FFFF without running into our own limit 72.

Maybe we should remove the limit, and keep the folding only for
bulk updates as by 4645bis (if done "within" I-D constraints).

Folding is simple, but with ordinary readers trying to "unfold"
the registry, who knows, if there's a way to screw up somebody
will explore it sooner or later.

Frank




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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Actually, I'd say the space before the
colon is not a question of taste. It's what the English language requires
and this work is in English. The number of spaces afterward is more debatable.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Karen Broome<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Frank Ellermann &lt;nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de&gt;</b>
</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/17/2007 12:00 PM</font>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">ltru@lists.ietf.org</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[Ltru] Re: HTAB</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Doug Ewell wrote:<br>
<br>
 [s/after/before/]<br>
&gt; I'm not asking about the whitespace after the colon, I'm asking<br>
&gt; about the whitespace before the colon. &nbsp;I suppose that would
be<br>
&gt; a French style:<br>
<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subtag : example<br>
<br>
Yep. &nbsp;Removing optional spaces before the colon is okay, it's an<br>
anachronism inherited from RFC (2)822. &nbsp;RFC 2822 obsoleted this:<br>
<br>
| optional-field &nbsp;= &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; field-name &quot;:&quot;
unstructured CRLF<br>
[...]<br>
| 4.5.8. Obsolete optional fields<br>
|<br>
| obs-optional &nbsp; &nbsp;= &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; field-name *WSP &quot;:&quot;
unstructured CRLF<br>
<br>
Nobody moved to reintroduce this ugly construct in 2822upd, we<br>
could get rid of it for 4646bis.<br>
<br>
I'm less sure about the record-jar format, aligning the colons<br>
in a fixed column could make sense.<br>
<br>
 [initial folding after the colon]<br>
&gt; That seems contrived, especially since the Reviewer wants to<br>
&gt; avoid Unicode escapes altogether<br>
<br>
The personal tastes of folks on the review list are just that,<br>
their personal tastes, requesters are free to differ. &nbsp;We have<br>
&quot;comment:&quot; (8 char.s) or &quot;description:&quot; (12 char.s),
and your<br>
personal taste is to add two spaces after the colon. &nbsp;With that<br>
you get a limit of 72-8-2=62 or 72-12-2=58 ASCII characters for<br>
the first space delimited word.<br>
<br>
For a description inherited from some source standard 58 isn't<br>
excessively contrived, with &amp;#x12345; (9 char.s) we're talking<br>
about 6..7 Unicode points outside of the BMP. &nbsp;With an initial<br>
folding right after the colon we can handle 7..8 Unicode points<br>
above u+FFFF without running into our own limit 72.<br>
<br>
Maybe we should remove the limit, and keep the folding only for<br>
bulk updates as by 4645bis (if done &quot;within&quot; I-D constraints).<br>
<br>
Folding is simple, but with ordinary readers trying to &quot;unfold&quot;<br>
the registry, who knows, if there's a way to screw up somebody<br>
will explore it sooner or later.<br>
<br>
Frank<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
Ltru@ietf.org<br>
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>
<br>
</font></tt>
<br>
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 17 23:42:20 2007
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This isn't English: it's a data format. Typically there are *no* spaces 
in this format. Nonetheless, I don't favor changing the grammar to 
prohibit spaces.

Addison

Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote:
> 
> Actually, I'd say the space before the colon is not a question of taste. 
> It's what the English language requires and this work is in English. The 
> number of spaces afterward is more debatable.
> 
> Karen Broome
> 
> 
> 
> *Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>*
> 
> 05/17/2007 12:00 PM
> 
> 	
> To
> 	ltru@lists.ietf.org
> cc
> 	
> Subject
> 	[Ltru] Re: HTAB
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doug Ewell wrote:
> 
> [s/after/before/]
>  > I'm not asking about the whitespace after the colon, I'm asking
>  > about the whitespace before the colon.  I suppose that would be
>  > a French style:
> 
>  >     Subtag : example
> 
> Yep.  Removing optional spaces before the colon is okay, it's an
> anachronism inherited from RFC (2)822.  RFC 2822 obsoleted this:
> 
> | optional-field  =       field-name ":" unstructured CRLF
> [...]
> | 4.5.8. Obsolete optional fields
> |
> | obs-optional    =       field-name *WSP ":" unstructured CRLF
> 
> Nobody moved to reintroduce this ugly construct in 2822upd, we
> could get rid of it for 4646bis.
> 
> I'm less sure about the record-jar format, aligning the colons
> in a fixed column could make sense.
> 
> [initial folding after the colon]
>  > That seems contrived, especially since the Reviewer wants to
>  > avoid Unicode escapes altogether
> 
> The personal tastes of folks on the review list are just that,
> their personal tastes, requesters are free to differ.  We have
> "comment:" (8 char.s) or "description:" (12 char.s), and your
> personal taste is to add two spaces after the colon.  With that
> you get a limit of 72-8-2=62 or 72-12-2=58 ASCII characters for
> the first space delimited word.
> 
> For a description inherited from some source standard 58 isn't
> excessively contrived, with &#x12345; (9 char.s) we're talking
> about 6..7 Unicode points outside of the BMP.  With an initial
> folding right after the colon we can handle 7..8 Unicode points
> above u+FFFF without running into our own limit 72.
> 
> Maybe we should remove the limit, and keep the folding only for
> bulk updates as by 4645bis (if done "within" I-D constraints).
> 
> Folding is simple, but with ordinary readers trying to "unfold"
> the registry, who knows, if there's a way to screw up somebody
> will explore it sooner or later.
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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Subject: [Ltru] RE: For review: Tagging text with no language
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Hello Richard,

Overall, this looks good to publish. But a few points:

There is some hickup in the sentence "This is an attempt to capture some ideas in a thread on www-international@w3.org and a later reprise of that those ideas to which several people contributed."

Probably "that those" -> "those".

I'd also change "attempt to capture some
ideas" to something like "summary of discussion". The former doesn't
fit well to an FAQ item, and it doesn't reflect the fact that the
discussion was pretty conclusive.

At the very end, you write: "Martin Du"rst points out that you can redefine the XHTML/HTML format within the document to create an HTML/XHTML page that validates while using lang="" or xml:lang="". This is not recommended for widespread use, however."

I'd change the last sentence to use the point provided by Frank
(http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2007JanMar/0141.html).
So I'd write something like "However, such a document is no longer
strictly conforming in the sense of XHTML 1.0."
This makes sure that people know what the issue is.

Another point, probably long-term: I found the text visually difficult
to read at some points because for me, there is not enough distinction
between the plain language of the text and the formal elements that are
interspersed. Things such as "zxx" and "und" appear in the middle of
the text as if they were English words. Looking at the issue in Amaya,
I discovered that most (but not all) of these instances are carefully
marked up with <code>, which is definitely appropriate. However, except
in Amaya, where the monospace font is serif (typical Currier style),
browsers (I checked Opera, Firefox, and IE6)
use a monospace font that is extremely close in x-height, width,
and everything else to the rest of the text. And the items themselves
are too short, and contain no letters like m/w or i/l which would
make it easy to distinguish monospace and proportional fonts.
So I think you should look at slightly reinforcing the style
difference.

Regards,   Martin.

At 00:13 07/05/17, Richard Ishida wrote:
>Thanks, Mark.  
> 
>I made some very slight adjustments to the article, and hopefully it is ok to publish now.
> 
>I18n core folks, please speak out if you don't feel we should agree to publish this during our telecon next Tuesday.
> 
>RI
> 
>============
>Richard Ishida
>Internationalization Lead
>W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> 
><http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/>http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
>http://www.w3.org/International/
><http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/>http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 18 07:58:31 2007
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Subject: [Ltru] RE: For review: Tagging text with no language
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Hi Martin,

Thanks for these useful comments.  I made all the suggested changes, and I
changed the style so that for keywords the font family is set to "Courier
new", monospaced, rather than just monospaced, and coloured the text brown.
Hopefully that will help with the distinctiveness.

Cheers,
RI

============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
 
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] 
> Sent: 18 May 2007 11:28
> To: Richard Ishida; 'Mark Davis'
> Cc: www-international@w3.org; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: RE: For review: Tagging text with no language
> 
> Hello Richard,
> 
> Overall, this looks good to publish. But a few points:
> 
> There is some hickup in the sentence "This is an attempt to 
> capture some ideas in a thread on www-international@w3.org 
> and a later reprise of that those ideas to which several 
> people contributed."
> 
> Probably "that those" -> "those".
> 
> I'd also change "attempt to capture some ideas" to something 
> like "summary of discussion". The former doesn't fit well to 
> an FAQ item, and it doesn't reflect the fact that the 
> discussion was pretty conclusive.
> 
> At the very end, you write: "Martin Du"rst points out that 
> you can redefine the XHTML/HTML format within the document to 
> create an HTML/XHTML page that validates while using lang="" 
> or xml:lang="". This is not recommended for widespread use, however."
> 
> I'd change the last sentence to use the point provided by 
> Frank 
> (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2007Jan
Mar/0141.html).
> So I'd write something like "However, such a document is no 
> longer strictly conforming in the sense of XHTML 1.0."
> This makes sure that people know what the issue is.
> 
> Another point, probably long-term: I found the text visually 
> difficult to read at some points because for me, there is not 
> enough distinction between the plain language of the text and 
> the formal elements that are interspersed. Things such as 
> "zxx" and "und" appear in the middle of the text as if they 
> were English words. Looking at the issue in Amaya, I 
> discovered that most (but not all) of these instances are 
> carefully marked up with <code>, which is definitely 
> appropriate. However, except in Amaya, where the monospace 
> font is serif (typical Currier style), browsers (I checked 
> Opera, Firefox, and IE6) use a monospace font that is 
> extremely close in x-height, width, and everything else to 
> the rest of the text. And the items themselves are too short, 
> and contain no letters like m/w or i/l which would make it 
> easy to distinguish monospace and proportional fonts.
> So I think you should look at slightly reinforcing the style 
> difference.
> 
> Regards,   Martin.
> 
> At 00:13 07/05/17, Richard Ishida wrote:
> >Thanks, Mark.  
> > 
> >I made some very slight adjustments to the article, and 
> hopefully it is ok to publish now.
> > 
> >I18n core folks, please speak out if you don't feel we 
> should agree to publish this during our telecon next Tuesday.
> > 
> >RI
> > 
> >============
> >Richard Ishida
> >Internationalization Lead
> >W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> > 
> ><http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/>http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> >http://www.w3.org/International/
> ><http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/>http://people.w3.org/rish
ida/blog/
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
> 
> 
> #-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       
> mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     
> 



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 18 10:43:53 2007
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Richard Ishida wrote:
 
> I changed the style so that for keywords the font family is set to
> "Courier new", monospaced, rather than just monospaced, and coloured
> the text brown. Hopefully that will help with the distinctiveness.

With my CSS-agnostic browsers the strings marked as <code> are fine.

In the "zxx" section you say "not in any language", maybe add "human",
the "zxx" "no linguistic content" blurb affects only human languages.

Frank




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Subject: [Ltru] Re: For review: Tagging text with no language
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Hi Richard,

My feedback is perhaps subjective. My feeling is that, in some places,=20
the text is not sufficently clear for those who don't speak English=20
fluently.

Anyway, here are some remarks (about=20
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language#undetermined)

- You write
"For example, xml:lang=3D"" might be used if text is included into a=20
document from a database that doesn't provide language information..."
It is the text or the document which is from a database? The text of cour=
se.
Should I understand this:
For example, xml:lang=3D"" might be used if text is to be included into a=
=20
document and (the text) comes from a database that doesn't provide=20
language information ...?

-You write
"The effect would be to cancel any language information declared higher=20
up the hierarchy of elements in the document."
What do "cancel any language" means?
 - remove the language information declared higher up the hierarchy? Wron=
g
 - override this declaration by the new one "und"? Right

Finally the whole story (about the use of "und") is, if you can "leave=20
out the markup", go ahead. Mark up only if "you have a particular need=20
to indicate that the language is undefined". Right?

The 1st and 4th =C2=A7 of =20
(http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language#undetermined)=20
say something similar, and could join into one =C2=A7.

Regards,

Najib

Richard Ishida wrote:
> Thanks, Mark.=20
> =20
> I made some very slight adjustments to the article, and hopefully it=20
> is ok to publish now.
> =20
> I18n core folks, please speak out if you don't feel we should agree to=20
> publish this during our telecon next Tuesday.
> =20
> RI
> =20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> =20
> http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
> =20
> =20
>
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>     *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
>     [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Mark Davis
>     *Sent:* 20 April 2007 21:00
>     *To:* Richard Ishida
>     *Cc:* www-international@w3.org; LTRU Working Group
>     *Subject:* Re: For review: Tagging text with no language
>
>     Richard, getting back to the topic of XML, it sounds like we have
>     three cases, illustrated by the following example:
>
>     <p xml:lang=3D"en">There are three cases:
>       <span>foo</span>,
>       <span xml:lang=3D"">foo</span>,
>       <span xml:lang=3D"und">foo</span>
>     </p>
>
>     In the first foo construction, we are saying that it inherits the
>     language "en". The second and third construction are equivalent:
>     we are overriding the "en" setting, and saying that foo is
>     undetermined with regard to language. The difference between them
>     is that:
>
>         * the second construction can't be used in XHTML (or any other
>           case where a DTD or schema requires a value).
>         * the third construction can always be used, but shouldn't be
>           used if the second can be.
>
>     Mark
>
>     On 4/11/07, *Richard Ishida* <ishida@w3.org
>     <mailto:ishida@w3.org>> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>         http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language
>
>         Comments are being sought on this FAQ-based article prior to
>         final release. Please send any comments to
>         www-international@w3.org <mailto:www-international@w3.org>. We
>         expect to publish a final version in one to two weeks.
>
>
>
>         =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>         Richard Ishida
>         Internationalization Lead
>         W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
>         http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
>         http://www.w3.org/International/
>         http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
>         <http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/>
>         http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --=20
>     Mark=20
>


--=20
Najib TOUNSI (mailto:tounsi @ w3.org)
Bureau W3C au Maroc (http://www.w3c.org.ma/)
Ecole Mohammadia d'Ingenieurs, BP 765 Agdal-RABAT Maroc (Morocco)
Phone : +212 (0) 37 68 71 50 (P1711)  Fax : +212 (0) 37 77 88 53
Mobile: +212 (0) 61 22 00 30=20




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Subject: [Ltru] Re: For review: Tagging text with no language
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Hello Richard, Najib,

At 07:25 07/05/19, Najib Tounsi wrote:
>
>Hi Richard,
>
>My feedback is perhaps subjective. My feeling is that, in some places, the text is not sufficently clear for those who don't speak English fluently.
>
>Anyway, here are some remarks (about http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language#undetermined)
>
>- You write
>"For example, xml:lang="" might be used if text is included into a document from a database that doesn't provide language information..."
>It is the text or the document which is from a database? The text of course.
>Should I understand this:
>For example, xml:lang="" might be used if text is to be included into a document and (the text) comes from a database that doesn't provide language information ...?

Very good point.

>-You write
>"The effect would be to cancel any language information declared higher up the hierarchy of elements in the document."
>What do "cancel any language" means?
> - remove the language information declared higher up the hierarchy? Wrong
> - override this declaration by the new one "und"? Right
>
>Finally the whole story (about the use of "und") is, if you can "leave out the markup", go ahead. Mark up only if "you have a particular need to indicate that the language is undefined". Right?

I was also a bit surprised by this. It's easy to read this as
"language tagging, so who cares?". It looks like it's quite in
contrast to what we say on language tags otherwise.

Regards,    Martin.



#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 19 07:39:02 2007
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From: Najib Tounsi <ntounsi@emi.ac.ma>
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Subject: [Ltru] Re: For review: Tagging text with no language
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Martin Duerst wrote:
> Hello Richard, Najib,
>
> At 07:25 07/05/19, Najib Tounsi wrote:
>   
>> Hi Richard,
>>
>> My feedback is perhaps subjective. My feeling is that, in some places, the text is not sufficently clear for those who don't speak English fluently.
>>
>> Anyway, here are some remarks (about http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language#undetermined)
>>
>> - You write
>> "For example, xml:lang="" might be used if text is included into a document from a database that doesn't provide language information..."
>> It is the text or the document which is from a database? The text of course.
>> Should I understand this:
>> For example, xml:lang="" might be used if text is to be included into a document and (the text) comes from a database that doesn't provide language information ...?
>>     
>
> Very good point.
>
>   
>> -You write
>> "The effect would be to cancel any language information declared higher up the hierarchy of elements in the document."
>> What do "cancel any language" means?
>> - remove the language information declared higher up the hierarchy? Wrong
>> - override this declaration by the new one "und"? Right
>>
>> Finally the whole story (about the use of "und") is, if you can "leave out the markup", go ahead. Mark up only if "you have a particular need to indicate that the language is undefined". Right?
>>     
>
> I was also a bit surprised by this. It's easy to read this as
> "language tagging, so who cares?". It looks like it's quite in
> contrast to what we say on language tags otherwise.
>   
In fact, to what I wanted to point is:

Suppose you have a text like "The speaker said 'Salam Alikoum' and began 
to talk".
You know that this English with something strange inside it. And you 
don't have a particular need to indicate that the strange language is 
undefined.

Which of the following two cases you recommend me to do? In which 
circumstances?

1. leave out the markup:
 <text xml:lang="en"> The speaker said
  <span>Salam Alikoum</span>
  and began to talk
 </text>

2. cancel any language information declared higher up the hierarchy 
using "und" (or xml:lang="",  depending on XML format):
 <text xml:lang="en"> The speaker said
  <span xml:lang="und">Salam Alikoum</span>
  and began to talk
 </text>
or
 <text xml:lang="en"> The speaker said
  <span xml:lang="">Salam Alikoum</span>
  and began to talk
 </text>

Now, if the English is not declared, is this the correct markup:
 <text> The speaker said
  <span>Salam Alikoum</span>
  and began to talk
 </text>


Regards, Najib




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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 19 09:01:18 2007
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Najib Tounsi wrote:

> Suppose you have a text like "The speaker said 'Salam Alikoum'
> and began to talk".
> You know that this English with something strange inside it.
> And you don't have a particular need to indicate that the
> strange language is undefined.

Does "no particular need" cover "no overzealous spell-checker" ?

Then you could leave it alone, apparently you want speech
browsers to read "Salam Alikoum" like English words.

Here's a similar idea: <div lang="de"> Aleikum Salem </div>

Frank




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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Najib Tounsi [mailto:ntounsi@emi.ac.ma] 
> Sent: 19 May 2007 11:07
> In fact, to what I wanted to point is:
> 
> Suppose you have a text like "The speaker said 'Salam 
> Alikoum' and began to talk".
> You know that this English with something strange inside it. 
> And you don't have a particular need to indicate that the 
> strange language is undefined.
> 
> Which of the following two cases you recommend me to do? In 
> which circumstances?
> 
> 1. leave out the markup:
>  <text xml:lang="en"> The speaker said
>   <span>Salam Alikoum</span>
>   and began to talk
>  </text>
> 
> 2. cancel any language information declared higher up the 
> hierarchy using "und" (or xml:lang="",  depending on XML format):
>  <text xml:lang="en"> The speaker said
>   <span xml:lang="und">Salam Alikoum</span>
>   and began to talk
>  </text>
> or
>  <text xml:lang="en"> The speaker said
>   <span xml:lang="">Salam Alikoum</span>
>   and began to talk
>  </text>
> 
> Now, if the English is not declared, is this the correct markup:
>  <text> The speaker said
>   <span>Salam Alikoum</span>
>   and began to talk
>  </text>
> 
> 

Hi Najib,

Well, if you know that the span is Arabic, you should label it as such.  If
the span said something like "sowejc owkdjocwl eowekj", and the surrounding
text is English, then you may want to add xml:lang="" or xml:lang="und" to
the span if you want to prevent people treating this as English.  If you
leave out the markup on the span, spell checkers, text to speech
applications, etc will assume that the span text is English.

RI



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Najib and Martin,

Thanks for your comments.  I had another go at the document.
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language

RI


============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
 
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] 
> Sent: 19 May 2007 02:30
> To: Najib Tounsi; Richard Ishida
> Cc: www-international@w3.org; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: For review: Tagging text with no language
> 
> Hello Richard, Najib,
> 
> At 07:25 07/05/19, Najib Tounsi wrote:
> >
> >Hi Richard,
> >
> >My feedback is perhaps subjective. My feeling is that, in 
> some places, the text is not sufficently clear for those who 
> don't speak English fluently.
> >
> >Anyway, here are some remarks (about 
> >http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language#unde
termined)
> >
> >- You write
> >"For example, xml:lang="" might be used if text is included 
> into a document from a database that doesn't provide language 
> information..."
> >It is the text or the document which is from a database? The 
> text of course.
> >Should I understand this:
> >For example, xml:lang="" might be used if text is to be 
> included into a document and (the text) comes from a database 
> that doesn't provide language information ...?
> 
> Very good point.
> 
> >-You write
> >"The effect would be to cancel any language information 
> declared higher up the hierarchy of elements in the document."
> >What do "cancel any language" means?
> > - remove the language information declared higher up the hierarchy? 
> >Wrong
> > - override this declaration by the new one "und"? Right
> >
> >Finally the whole story (about the use of "und") is, if you 
> can "leave out the markup", go ahead. Mark up only if "you 
> have a particular need to indicate that the language is 
> undefined". Right?
> 
> I was also a bit surprised by this. It's easy to read this as 
> "language tagging, so who cares?". It looks like it's quite 
> in contrast to what we say on language tags otherwise.
> 
> Regards,    Martin.
> 
> 
> 
> #-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       
> mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     
> 



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Subject: [Ltru] RE: For review: Tagging text with no language
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Sorry for piping up late on this issue.... 

I still question the practical applications of the "no linguistic content" 
semantic. I thought we had agreed that the most appropriate use of the 
"zxx" tag was to indicate that the association of a language with a piece 
of content is not applicable.  So if I'm classifying an instrumental 
musical work using a standard library cataloging system that is also used 
for lyrical works, I might indicate that the recording is "zxx"; a silent 
film might have a "zxx" audio track. This use of the zxx tag is not 
indicated in the text on the page. Should it be?

Second, I don't think the part number example on the page is useful if the 
intention is to code pages "so that applications such as voice browsers 
... can process that text." If we think about what behavior would be 
expected by a screen reader upon encountering a "zxx" tag, I would expect 
that it would ignore the text inside the tag -- just as it should with, 
say, binary junk. But clearly anyone trying to make sense of the content 
shown on this page would need to "read" those part numbers as well.  The 
same is true for programming code snippets that appear in technical 
tutorials. This is where I think there is a distinction between 
"non-applicable" and "non-linguistic" that is being ignored.

What purpose would your <span> tag in the example serve? While this may do 
the right thing for the spellchecker, this is not the right thing to do 
for a screen reader. 

I have always argued that "no linguistic content" is not appropriate for 
code or part numbers and I think recent examples show why I continue to 
think this is a problematic usage and that the "zxx" semantic should be 
"not applicable."

Regards,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384

www-international-request@w3.org wrote on 05/21/2007 11:51:35 AM:

> 
> Najib and Martin,
> 
> Thanks for your comments.  I had another go at the document.
> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language
> 
> RI
> 
> 
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> 
> http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Sorry for piping up late on this issue....
</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I still question the practical applications
of the &quot;no linguistic content&quot; semantic. I thought we had agreed
that the most appropriate use of the &quot;zxx&quot; tag was to indicate
that the association of a language with a piece of content is not applicable.
&nbsp;So if I'm classifying an instrumental musical work using a standard
library cataloging system that is also used for lyrical works, I might
indicate that the recording is &quot;zxx&quot;; a silent film might have
a &quot;zxx&quot; audio track. This use of the zxx tag is not indicated
in the text on the page. Should it be?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Second, I don't think the part number
example on the page is useful if the intention is to code pages &quot;so
that applications such as voice browsers ... can process that text.&quot;
If we think about what behavior would be expected by a screen reader upon
encountering a &quot;zxx&quot; tag, I would expect that it would ignore
the text inside the tag -- just as it should with, say, binary junk. But
clearly anyone trying to make sense of the content shown on this page would
need to &quot;read&quot; those part numbers as well. &nbsp;The same is
true for programming code snippets that appear in technical tutorials.
This is where I think there is a distinction between &quot;non-applicable&quot;
and &quot;non-linguistic&quot; that is being ignored.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">What purpose would your &lt;span&gt;
tag in the example serve? While this may do the right thing for the spellchecker,
this is not the right thing to do for a screen reader. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I have always argued that &quot;no linguistic
content&quot; is not appropriate for code or part numbers and I think recent
examples show why I continue to think this is a problematic usage and that
the &quot;zxx&quot; semantic should be &quot;not applicable.&quot;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Karen Broome<br>
Metadata Systems Designer<br>
Sony Pictures Entertainment<br>
310.244.4384</font>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>www-international-request@w3.org wrote on 05/21/2007
11:51:35 AM:<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Najib and Martin,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks for your comments. &nbsp;I had another go at the document.<br>
&gt; http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-no-language<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; RI<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ============<br>
&gt; Richard Ishida<br>
&gt; Internationalization Lead<br>
&gt; W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)<br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/<br>
&gt; http://www.w3.org/International/<br>
&gt; http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/<br>
&gt; http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/</font></tt>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] RE: For review: Tagging text with no language
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Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 20:29:10 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Doug Ewell" <dewell@roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Registration request: "mis" comment clarifying meaning
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I see two tenable choices for "mis".

   1. Linguistic root: "mis" would serve a somewhat useful function if
   interpreted as the "root" of all languages, as Kent has proposed. That
   function is not the same as "und", since "und" indicates no knowledge
   about the status of the content, while "mis" says that there is
some linguistic
   content, and is thus the counterpart to zxx (there is no linguistic
   content).
   2. Deprecated. If mis is not interpreted as Root, but as "Not any of
   the above", it completely breaks stability, and we need to completely
   deprecate it, as discussed before.

Although I think the first choice would be a better one in terms of overall
usefulness for clients of 4646bis, I wouldn't be strongly against #1 either.

Related to that, Peter raise the issue of getting clarification from ISO as
to the status of the collection codes. While I think this would be very
useful, there is one important caveat: If a version of ISO 639 ever narrows
the documented, written meaning of a code according to a previously released
version ISO 639, for stability we cannot follow that narrowing, and must
keep the original broader meaning. If they broaden the meaning of a code, we
can and should follow their lead.

Mark

On 5/15/07, Doug Ewell <dewell@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> Kent Karlsson <kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se> wrote:
>
> > Not at all. There is no hierarchy that is **given explicitly**, but
> there
> > is certainly an implicit one. Vide:
> >
> > (set of 'gem' [Germanic] languages)  subset
> > (set of 'ine' [Indo_European] languages) subset
> > (set of 'mis' [natural] languages) subset
> > (set of stuff covered by 'und', i.e. anything)
>
> > With the exception of 'mis' (which must cover all natural languages) the
>
> > rest of the hierarchy must be figured out via some other sources of
> > information. But the intention is certainly a hierarchy, otherwise none
> of
> > the collection codes would make any sense.
>
> I don't remember if I said before "this is my last post on this subject,"
> but this really will be my last post on this subject.
>
> I do not agree with Kent's model in the slightest.  "Miscellaneous" is, BY
> ITS NATURE, a different concept from all of the other "collection"
> concepts.
> Intuitively it means "everything that doesn't fit into some other
> category."
>
> I would very much like it if ISO 639 JAC or MARC or somebody would issue
> some sort of official statement about the intended purpose of "mis" so we
> could put this discussion to rest.  I think such a statement will support
> my
> view of "mis", but whether it does or not, we should accept it and move
> on.
> We are spending great gobs of time debating these particular angels and
> this
> particular pin, and meanwhile there are other issues to resolve before RFC
> 4646bis will be ready for WGLC.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ <http://users.adelphia.net/%7Edewell/>
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I see two tenable choices for &quot;mis&quot;.<br><div style="text-align: left;"><ol><li><span style="font-weight: bold;">Linguistic root</span>: &quot;mis&quot; would serve a somewhat useful function if interpreted as the &quot;root&quot; of all languages, as Kent has proposed. That function is 
<span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-style: italic;">not the same as </span></span>&quot;und&quot;, since &quot;und&quot; indicates no knowledge about the status of the content, while &quot;mis&quot; says that there is 
<span style="font-style: italic;">some </span>linguistic content, and is thus the counterpart to zxx (there is <span style="font-style: italic;">no </span>linguistic content).</li><li><span style="font-weight: bold;">Deprecated. 
</span>If mis is not interpreted as Root, but as &quot;Not any of the above&quot;, it completely breaks stability, and we need to completely deprecate it, as discussed before.</li></ol></div>Although I think the first choice would be a better one in terms of overall usefulness for clients of 4646bis, I wouldn&#39;t be strongly against #1 either.
<br><br>Related to that, Peter raise the issue of getting clarification from ISO as to the status of the collection codes. While I think this would be very useful, there is one important caveat: If a version of ISO 639 ever narrows the documented, written meaning of a code according to a previously released version ISO 639, for stability we cannot follow that narrowing, and must keep the original broader meaning. If they broaden the meaning of a code, we can and should follow their lead.
<br><br>Mark<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 5/15/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Doug Ewell</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:dewell@roadrunner.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dewell@roadrunner.com
</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Kent Karlsson &lt;kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt; Not at all. There is no hierarchy that is **given explicitly**, but there<br>&gt; is certainly an implicit one. Vide:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; (set of &#39;gem&#39; [Germanic] languages)&nbsp;&nbsp;subset
<br>&gt; (set of &#39;ine&#39; [Indo_European] languages) subset<br>&gt; (set of &#39;mis&#39; [natural] languages) subset<br>&gt; (set of stuff covered by &#39;und&#39;, i.e. anything)<br><br>&gt; With the exception of &#39;mis&#39; (which must cover all natural languages) the
<br>&gt; rest of the hierarchy must be figured out via some other sources of<br>&gt; information. But the intention is certainly a hierarchy, otherwise none of<br>&gt; the collection codes would make any sense.<br><br>I don&#39;t remember if I said before &quot;this is my last post on this subject,&quot;
<br>but this really will be my last post on this subject.<br><br>I do not agree with Kent&#39;s model in the slightest.&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;Miscellaneous&quot; is, BY<br>ITS NATURE, a different concept from all of the other &quot;collection&quot; concepts.
<br>Intuitively it means &quot;everything that doesn&#39;t fit into some other category.&quot;<br><br>I would very much like it if ISO 639 JAC or MARC or somebody would issue<br>some sort of official statement about the intended purpose of &quot;mis&quot; so we
<br>could put this discussion to rest.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think such a statement will support my<br>view of &quot;mis&quot;, but whether it does or not, we should accept it and move on.<br>We are spending great gobs of time debating these particular angels and this
<br>particular pin, and meanwhile there are other issues to resolve before RFC<br>4646bis will be ready for WGLC.<br><br>--<br>Doug Ewell&nbsp;&nbsp;*&nbsp;&nbsp;Fullerton, California, USA&nbsp;&nbsp;*&nbsp;&nbsp;RFC 4645&nbsp;&nbsp;*&nbsp;&nbsp;UTN #14<br><a href="http://users.adelphia.net/%7Edewell/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">

http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/</a><br><a href="http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
</a><br><a href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</a><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Ltru mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
Ltru@ietf.org</a><br><a href="https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: [Ltru] "No narrowing" does not apply to ambiguous code elements
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> If a version of ISO 639 ever narrows the documented, written meaning
> of a code according to a previously released version ISO 639, for
> stability we cannot follow that narrowing, and must keep the original
> broader meaning.

That's reasonable in the case of a conscious change, but doesn't apply
to the clarification of a code element whose meaning is ambiguous or
unintentionally vague.  For example, 639-2 defines the code element
'ain' as simply "Ainu".  639-3 recognizes that there are two completely
unrelated languages with that name, the fairly well-known language
isolate in Japan and an obscure Turkic language closely related to
Uyghur and spoken in China.  The former is assigned the code element
'ain' by 639-3, whereas the latter has the code element 'aib'.

A strict application of the "no narrowing" principle would require that
"ain" be applicable to both Ainu-Japan and Ainu-China, and that a new
code element has to be introduced to represent Ainu-Japan exclusively.
This would *not* help stability: on the contrary, it would damage
stability, since both 'ain' and the new code would wind up being applied
to Ainu-Japan resources, making matching less likely to succeed.

Rather we must recognize that in fact 'ain' has been applied exclusively
to Ainu-Japan resources and should continue to be so applied, despite
the hitherto unrecognized existence of Ainu-China.

A second example would be the code element 'aus', for "Australian
languages".  639-2 does not make clear whether this includes only
languages belonging to the Australian language family, or also includes
languages such as English, Greek, Turkish, and Basque which are also
spoken in the country of Australia, since both the English adjective
"Australian" and the French adjective "australiennes" are ambiguous in
this respect.  A strict interpretation of "no narrowing" would require
us to ignore any clarification of this term to exclude languages outside
the Australian family.

As a third example, the code element 'nld' (or 'nl' in 639-1) is defined
as "Dutch; Flemish".  However, "Flemish" is also used as the English
name of the nonstandard Low Franconian language Vlaams that is spoken in
Flanders.  Strictly, 'nl' could be used to represent this language as well
as standard Dutch, but again this reduces rather than increases stability.

-- 
In politics, obedience and support      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
are the same thing.  --Hannah Arendt    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan


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Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 07:28:07 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: [Ltru] Re: "No narrowing" does not apply to ambiguous code elements
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I was reminded by Martin that he had wanted no more messages on this topic
for now, so I'll reply later when he opens up the discussion again.

Mark

On 5/22/07, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
>
> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> > If a version of ISO 639 ever narrows the documented, written meaning
> > of a code according to a previously released version ISO 639, for
> > stability we cannot follow that narrowing, and must keep the original
> > broader meaning.
>
> That's reasonable in the case of a conscious change, but doesn't apply
> to the clarification of a code element whose meaning is ambiguous or
> unintentionally vague.  For example, 639-2 defines the code element
> 'ain' as simply "Ainu".  639-3 recognizes that there are two completely
> unrelated languages with that name, the fairly well-known language
> isolate in Japan and an obscure Turkic language closely related to
> Uyghur and spoken in China.  The former is assigned the code element
> 'ain' by 639-3, whereas the latter has the code element 'aib'.
>
> A strict application of the "no narrowing" principle would require that
> "ain" be applicable to both Ainu-Japan and Ainu-China, and that a new
> code element has to be introduced to represent Ainu-Japan exclusively.
> This would *not* help stability: on the contrary, it would damage
> stability, since both 'ain' and the new code would wind up being applied
> to Ainu-Japan resources, making matching less likely to succeed.
>
> Rather we must recognize that in fact 'ain' has been applied exclusively
> to Ainu-Japan resources and should continue to be so applied, despite
> the hitherto unrecognized existence of Ainu-China.
>
> A second example would be the code element 'aus', for "Australian
> languages".  639-2 does not make clear whether this includes only
> languages belonging to the Australian language family, or also includes
> languages such as English, Greek, Turkish, and Basque which are also
> spoken in the country of Australia, since both the English adjective
> "Australian" and the French adjective "australiennes" are ambiguous in
> this respect.  A strict interpretation of "no narrowing" would require
> us to ignore any clarification of this term to exclude languages outside
> the Australian family.
>
> As a third example, the code element 'nld' (or 'nl' in 639-1) is defined
> as "Dutch; Flemish".  However, "Flemish" is also used as the English
> name of the nonstandard Low Franconian language Vlaams that is spoken in
> Flanders.  Strictly, 'nl' could be used to represent this language as well
> as standard Dutch, but again this reduces rather than increases stability.
>
> --
> In politics, obedience and support      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
> are the same thing.  --Hannah Arendt    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
>



-- 
Mark

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I was reminded by Martin that he had wanted no more messages on this topic for now, so I&#39;ll reply later when he opens up the discussion again.<br><br>Mark<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 5/22/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">
John Cowan</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Mark Davis scripsit:
<br><br>&gt; If a version of ISO 639 ever narrows the documented, written meaning<br>&gt; of a code according to a previously released version ISO 639, for<br>&gt; stability we cannot follow that narrowing, and must keep the original
<br>&gt; broader meaning.<br><br>That&#39;s reasonable in the case of a conscious change, but doesn&#39;t apply<br>to the clarification of a code element whose meaning is ambiguous or<br>unintentionally vague.&nbsp;&nbsp;For example, 639-2 defines the code element
<br>&#39;ain&#39; as simply &quot;Ainu&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;639-3 recognizes that there are two completely<br>unrelated languages with that name, the fairly well-known language<br>isolate in Japan and an obscure Turkic language closely related to
<br>Uyghur and spoken in China.&nbsp;&nbsp;The former is assigned the code element<br>&#39;ain&#39; by 639-3, whereas the latter has the code element &#39;aib&#39;.<br><br>A strict application of the &quot;no narrowing&quot; principle would require that
<br>&quot;ain&quot; be applicable to both Ainu-Japan and Ainu-China, and that a new<br>code element has to be introduced to represent Ainu-Japan exclusively.<br>This would *not* help stability: on the contrary, it would damage
<br>stability, since both &#39;ain&#39; and the new code would wind up being applied<br>to Ainu-Japan resources, making matching less likely to succeed.<br><br>Rather we must recognize that in fact &#39;ain&#39; has been applied exclusively
<br>to Ainu-Japan resources and should continue to be so applied, despite<br>the hitherto unrecognized existence of Ainu-China.<br><br>A second example would be the code element &#39;aus&#39;, for &quot;Australian<br>languages&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;639-2 does not make clear whether this includes only
<br>languages belonging to the Australian language family, or also includes<br>languages such as English, Greek, Turkish, and Basque which are also<br>spoken in the country of Australia, since both the English adjective<br>
&quot;Australian&quot; and the French adjective &quot;australiennes&quot; are ambiguous in<br>this respect.&nbsp;&nbsp;A strict interpretation of &quot;no narrowing&quot; would require<br>us to ignore any clarification of this term to exclude languages outside
<br>the Australian family.<br><br>As a third example, the code element &#39;nld&#39; (or &#39;nl&#39; in 639-1) is defined<br>as &quot;Dutch; Flemish&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, &quot;Flemish&quot; is also used as the English<br>name of the nonstandard Low Franconian language Vlaams that is spoken in
<br>Flanders.&nbsp;&nbsp;Strictly, &#39;nl&#39; could be used to represent this language as well<br>as standard Dutch, but again this reduces rather than increases stability.<br><br>--<br>In politics, obedience and support&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;John Cowan &lt;
<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt;<br>are the same thing.&nbsp;&nbsp;--Hannah Arendt&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="http://www.ccil.org/~cowan">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 18:59:32 2007
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> I was reminded by Martin that he had wanted no more messages on this
> topic for now, so I'll reply later when he opens up the discussion
> again.

AFAIK that applied only to specific discussion of "mis" (which I deleted
from your message) rather than to the general point I'm making here,
which affects a policy question.  So I look forward to your reply.

-- 
In politics, obedience and support      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
are the same thing.  --Hannah Arendt    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan


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Sure. The stability of codes is crucial, and at the core of the reason for
the changes in 4646. But the standard for application of any body of text,
including the RFC, has to be what the interpretation by a "reasonable"
person would be. If a reasonable, informed person can sensibly tag content X
with tag T, based on a sensible reading of a copy of RFC 4646, then we
cannot later make that application of that T to X be invalid.

Thus if Joe uses the tag "lat" to describe content in "pig latin", we can
clearly view that as not something a reasonable, informed person would do.
Thus we could in good conscience add a note clarifying that Latin doesn't
include "pig latin" (not that I think this is necessary ;-). And as in the
case you cite, the normal expectation is that "Ainu" refers to the language
spoken in Japan rather than some relatively unknown language. So adding
clarifying language is fine for such cases.

If, on the other hand, ISO said that "alg" no longer means "Algonquian
languages", it only means *some* Algonquian languages, that would clearly be
a narrowing, which we cannot support.

For "aus", it would be ok to add a clarifying note. It's generally
understood that the geographic terms in language names such as that are to
be interpreted as pertaining to languages originating in that area, and thus
not include Italian or Russian even though many Australians are fluent in
those languages.

Flemish has come up in Google, so we had to figure this out. We canvased
people, including Flemish speakers, and all equate "Dutch as used in
Belgium" (nl-BE) with "Flemish". Using the term "Flemish" for something else
is clearly very unusual, so I have no qualms about clarifying the situation
there.

Mark

On 5/23/07, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
>
> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> > I was reminded by Martin that he had wanted no more messages on this
> > topic for now, so I'll reply later when he opens up the discussion
> > again.
>
> AFAIK that applied only to specific discussion of "mis" (which I deleted
> from your message) rather than to the general point I'm making here,
> which affects a policy question.  So I look forward to your reply.
>
> --
> In politics, obedience and support      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
> are the same thing.  --Hannah Arendt    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
>



-- 
Mark

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Sure. The stability of codes is crucial, and at the core of the reason for the changes in 4646. But the standard for application of any body of text, including the RFC, has to be what the interpretation by a &quot;reasonable&quot; person would be. If a reasonable, informed person can sensibly tag content X with tag T, based on a sensible reading of a copy of RFC 4646, then we cannot later make that application of that T to X be invalid.
<br><br>Thus if Joe uses the tag &quot;lat&quot; to describe content in &quot;pig latin&quot;, we can clearly view that as not something a reasonable, informed person would do. Thus we could in good conscience add a note clarifying that Latin doesn&#39;t include &quot;pig latin&quot; (not that I think this is necessary ;-). And as in the case you cite, the normal expectation is that &quot;Ainu&quot; refers to the language spoken in Japan rather than some relatively unknown language. So adding clarifying language is fine for such cases.
<br><br>If, on the other hand, ISO said that &quot;alg&quot; no longer means &quot;Algonquian languages&quot;, it only means *some* Algonquian languages, that would clearly be a narrowing, which we cannot support.<br><br>
For &quot;aus&quot;, it would be ok to add a clarifying note. It&#39;s generally understood that the geographic terms in language names such as that are to be interpreted as pertaining to languages originating in that area, and thus not include Italian or Russian even though many Australians are fluent in those languages.
<br><br>Flemish has come up in Google, so we had to figure this out. We canvased people, including Flemish speakers, and all equate &quot;Dutch as used in Belgium&quot; (nl-BE) with &quot;Flemish&quot;. Using the term &quot;Flemish&quot; for something else is clearly very unusual, so I have no qualms about clarifying the situation there.
<br><br>Mark<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 5/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">John Cowan</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Mark Davis scripsit:<br><br>&gt; I was reminded by Martin that he had wanted no more messages on this<br>&gt; topic for now, so I&#39;ll reply later when he opens up the discussion<br>&gt; again.<br><br>AFAIK that applied only to specific discussion of &quot;mis&quot; (which I deleted
<br>from your message) rather than to the general point I&#39;m making here,<br>which affects a policy question.&nbsp;&nbsp;So I look forward to your reply.<br><br>--<br>In politics, obedience and support&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">
cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt;<br>are the same thing.&nbsp;&nbsp;--Hannah Arendt&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="http://www.ccil.org/~cowan">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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A question with respect to Flemish: ISO 639-3's Dutch tag maps back to 
"nl" and "nld" but today Vlaams does not, though "Flemish" is listed as a 
synonym for Vlaams on Ethnologue. The term "Flemish" does not appear in 
ISO 639-3 though clearly that term is most commonly used in 
English-language applications.

So while I've been using "nl-BE" for Flemish, I'm now wondering why Vlaams 
is not mapped to "nl" in 639-3. Is this an oversight or intentional? 
Should recommend "vls", "nl-vls", or "nl-BE" for use in our applications 
once RFC 4646bis is released?  I scanned the list of requested changes to 
ISO 639-3 and I didn't see this.

Regards,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384



"Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org> 
05/23/2007 05:27 PM

To
"John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
cc
ltru@ietf.org
Subject
[Ltru] Re: "No narrowing" does not apply to ambiguous code elements






Sure. The stability of codes is crucial, and at the core of the reason for 
the changes in 4646. But the standard for application of any body of text, 
including the RFC, has to be what the interpretation by a "reasonable" 
person would be. If a reasonable, informed person can sensibly tag content 
X with tag T, based on a sensible reading of a copy of RFC 4646, then we 
cannot later make that application of that T to X be invalid. 

Thus if Joe uses the tag "lat" to describe content in "pig latin", we can 
clearly view that as not something a reasonable, informed person would do. 
Thus we could in good conscience add a note clarifying that Latin doesn't 
include "pig latin" (not that I think this is necessary ;-). And as in the 
case you cite, the normal expectation is that "Ainu" refers to the 
language spoken in Japan rather than some relatively unknown language. So 
adding clarifying language is fine for such cases. 

If, on the other hand, ISO said that "alg" no longer means "Algonquian 
languages", it only means *some* Algonquian languages, that would clearly 
be a narrowing, which we cannot support.

For "aus", it would be ok to add a clarifying note. It's generally 
understood that the geographic terms in language names such as that are to 
be interpreted as pertaining to languages originating in that area, and 
thus not include Italian or Russian even though many Australians are 
fluent in those languages. 

Flemish has come up in Google, so we had to figure this out. We canvased 
people, including Flemish speakers, and all equate "Dutch as used in 
Belgium" (nl-BE) with "Flemish". Using the term "Flemish" for something 
else is clearly very unusual, so I have no qualms about clarifying the 
situation there. 

Mark

On 5/23/07, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> I was reminded by Martin that he had wanted no more messages on this
> topic for now, so I'll reply later when he opens up the discussion
> again.

AFAIK that applied only to specific discussion of "mis" (which I deleted 
from your message) rather than to the general point I'm making here,
which affects a policy question.  So I look forward to your reply.

--
In politics, obedience and support      John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org>
are the same thing.  --Hannah Arendt    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan



-- 
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">A question with respect to Flemish:
ISO 639-3's Dutch tag maps back to &quot;nl&quot; and &quot;nld&quot; but
today Vlaams does not, though &quot;Flemish&quot; is listed as a synonym
for Vlaams on Ethnologue. The term &quot;Flemish&quot; does not appear
in ISO 639-3 though clearly that term is most commonly used in English-language
applications.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">So while I've been using &quot;nl-BE&quot;
for Flemish, I'm now wondering why Vlaams is not mapped to &quot;nl&quot;
in 639-3. Is this an oversight or intentional? Should recommend &quot;vls&quot;,
&quot;nl-vls&quot;, or &quot;nl-BE&quot; for use in our applications once
RFC 4646bis is released? &nbsp;I scanned the list of requested changes
to ISO 639-3 and I didn't see this.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Karen Broome<br>
Metadata Systems Designer<br>
Sony Pictures Entertainment<br>
310.244.4384</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Mark Davis&quot;
&lt;mark.davis@icu-project.org&gt;</b> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/23/2007 05:27 PM</font>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&quot;John Cowan&quot; &lt;cowan@ccil.org&gt;</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">ltru@ietf.org</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[Ltru] Re: &quot;No narrowing&quot;
does not apply to ambiguous code elements</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3>Sure. The stability of codes is crucial, and at the core
of the reason for the changes in 4646. But the standard for application
of any body of text, including the RFC, has to be what the interpretation
by a &quot;reasonable&quot; person would be. If a reasonable, informed
person can sensibly tag content X with tag T, based on a sensible reading
of a copy of RFC 4646, then we cannot later make that application of that
T to X be invalid. <br>
<br>
Thus if Joe uses the tag &quot;lat&quot; to describe content in &quot;pig
latin&quot;, we can clearly view that as not something a reasonable, informed
person would do. Thus we could in good conscience add a note clarifying
that Latin doesn't include &quot;pig latin&quot; (not that I think this
is necessary ;-). And as in the case you cite, the normal expectation is
that &quot;Ainu&quot; refers to the language spoken in Japan rather than
some relatively unknown language. So adding clarifying language is fine
for such cases. <br>
<br>
If, on the other hand, ISO said that &quot;alg&quot; no longer means &quot;Algonquian
languages&quot;, it only means *some* Algonquian languages, that would
clearly be a narrowing, which we cannot support.<br>
<br>
For &quot;aus&quot;, it would be ok to add a clarifying note. It's generally
understood that the geographic terms in language names such as that are
to be interpreted as pertaining to languages originating in that area,
and thus not include Italian or Russian even though many Australians are
fluent in those languages. <br>
<br>
Flemish has come up in Google, so we had to figure this out. We canvased
people, including Flemish speakers, and all equate &quot;Dutch as used
in Belgium&quot; (nl-BE) with &quot;Flemish&quot;. Using the term &quot;Flemish&quot;
for something else is clearly very unusual, so I have no qualms about clarifying
the situation there. <br>
<br>
Mark<br>
</font>
<br><font size=3>On 5/23/07, <b>John Cowan</b> &lt;</font><a href=mailto:cowan@ccil.org><font size=3 color=blue><u>cowan@ccil.org</u></font></a><font size=3>&gt;
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=3>Mark Davis scripsit:<br>
<br>
&gt; I was reminded by Martin that he had wanted no more messages on this<br>
&gt; topic for now, so I'll reply later when he opens up the discussion<br>
&gt; again.<br>
<br>
AFAIK that applied only to specific discussion of &quot;mis&quot; (which
I deleted <br>
from your message) rather than to the general point I'm making here,<br>
which affects a policy question. &nbsp;So I look forward to your reply.<br>
<br>
--<br>
In politics, obedience and support &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;John Cowan &lt;</font><a href=mailto:cowan@ccil.org><font size=3 color=blue><u>
cowan@ccil.org</u></font></a><font size=3>&gt;<br>
are the same thing. &nbsp;--Hannah Arendt &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><a href=http://www.ccil.org/~cowan><font size=3 color=blue><u>http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</u></font></a>
<br><font size=3><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Mark </font><tt><font size=2>_______________________________________________<br>
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Ltru@ietf.org<br>
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>
</font></tt>
<br>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: "No narrowing" does not apply to ambiguous code
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Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit:

> A question with respect to Flemish: ISO 639-3's Dutch tag maps back to
> "nl" and "nld" but today Vlaams does not, though "Flemish" is listed
> as a synonym for Vlaams on Ethnologue. The term "Flemish" does not
> appear in ISO 639-3 though clearly that term is most commonly used in
> English-language applications.

There are two different languages involved here:  'nl(d)', which is
standard Dutch and closely related dialects; the other is 'vls', which
as I said earlier is a nonstandard language closely related to, but not
the same as, Dutch.  The terms "Flemish" and "Vlaams" have been used for
both 'vls' and for the variety of 'nl(d)' spoken and written in Flanders,
and the actual speech of Flemings often involves a mixture of the two
languages, making things extremely confusing.

Nevertheless, ISO 639-3 does not consider 'nl(d)' a macrolanguage
encompassing 'vls', and so the appropriate tag in the 4646bis regime
will be "vls".

> So while I've been using "nl-BE" for Flemish, I'm now wondering
> why Vlaams is not mapped to "nl" in 639-3. Is this an oversight or
> intentional?  Should recommend "vls", "nl-vls", or "nl-BE" for use in
> our applications once RFC 4646bis is released?  I scanned the list of
> requested changes to ISO 639-3 and I didn't see this.

"nl-vls" is definitely out, so any of "nl" or "nl-BE" or "vls" might
be appropriate, depending on how close the language being used is to
standard Dutch.  Note that "vls" has three orthographies in use, which
can be reasonably labeled "vls-BE", "vls-FR", and "vls-NL".

The situation is essentially parallel to "en" vs. "en-x-scottish"
(Scottish English) vs. "sco" (Scots).  There are many other examples
the world over.

-- 
In politics, obedience and support      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
are the same thing.  --Hannah Arendt    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan


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Mark Davis scripsit:

> Sure. The stability of codes is crucial, and at the core of the reason
> for the changes in 4646. But the standard for application of any body
> of text, including the RFC, has to be what the interpretation by a
> "reasonable" person would be. If a reasonable, informed person can
> sensibly tag content X with tag T, based on a sensible reading of a
> copy of RFC 4646, then we cannot later make that application of that
> T to X be invalid.

Okay, so we agree that the text alone is not enough -- one must know the
context to understand a phrase such as "Australian languages".  So much
for _sola scriptura_.  And I agree with all of your particular points.

What remains, then, is whether it's enough just to look at information
from linguistics alone, or whether we also have to look at the practices
of large segments of the tagging community, particularly when (as in
the case of MARC and Ethnologue) the ISO tags are originally derived
from their systems.  I say yes, that the MARC interpretation controls
unless specifically overridden by ISO.

-- 
In politics, obedience and support      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
are the same thing.  --Hannah Arendt    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan


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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: [Ltru] Re: "No narrowing" does not apply to ambiguous code elements
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No. We cannot reasonably expect people to traverse through the history of
how codes came to be; that would be a bizarre expectation, since they would
not only have to research exactly how they came to get into the standard,
but they would also have to know all of the internal history involved, often
only in people's heads, in order to know whether or not the meaning changed
in the adoption.

To take an analogy, if I want to know what a particular character in Unicode
means, I need to look at the text of the standard and associated data, as
viewed by a reasonably knowledgeable person. We CANNOT expect such people to
go look at all the internal documents that led up to the encoding of the
character, (a) because it's just plain wrong to have that expectation, and
(b) because the interpretation and usage often changes by the time it is
encoded.

Mark

On 5/24/07, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
>
> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> > Sure. The stability of codes is crucial, and at the core of the reason
> > for the changes in 4646. But the standard for application of any body
> > of text, including the RFC, has to be what the interpretation by a
> > "reasonable" person would be. If a reasonable, informed person can
> > sensibly tag content X with tag T, based on a sensible reading of a
> > copy of RFC 4646, then we cannot later make that application of that
> > T to X be invalid.
>
> Okay, so we agree that the text alone is not enough -- one must know the
> context to understand a phrase such as "Australian languages".  So much
> for _sola scriptura_.  And I agree with all of your particular points.
>
> What remains, then, is whether it's enough just to look at information
> from linguistics alone, or whether we also have to look at the practices
> of large segments of the tagging community, particularly when (as in
> the case of MARC and Ethnologue) the ISO tags are originally derived
> from their systems.  I say yes, that the MARC interpretation controls
> unless specifically overridden by ISO.
>
> --
> In politics, obedience and support      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
> are the same thing.  --Hannah Arendt    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
>



-- 
Mark

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No. We cannot reasonably expect people to traverse through the history of how codes came to be; that would be a bizarre expectation, since they would not only have to research exactly how they came to get into the standard, but they would also have to know all of the internal history involved, often only in people&#39;s heads, in order to know whether or not the meaning changed in the adoption.
<br><br>To take an analogy, if I want to know what a particular character in Unicode means, I need to look at the text of the standard and associated data, as viewed by a reasonably knowledgeable person. We CANNOT expect such people to go look at all the internal documents that led up to the encoding of the character, (a) because it&#39;s just plain wrong to have that expectation, and (b) because the interpretation and usage often changes by the time it is encoded.
<br><br>Mark<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 5/24/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">John Cowan</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Mark Davis scripsit:<br><br>&gt; Sure. The stability of codes is crucial, and at the core of the reason<br>&gt; for the changes in 4646. But the standard for application of any body<br>&gt; of text, including the RFC, has to be what the interpretation by a
<br>&gt; &quot;reasonable&quot; person would be. If a reasonable, informed person can<br>&gt; sensibly tag content X with tag T, based on a sensible reading of a<br>&gt; copy of RFC 4646, then we cannot later make that application of that
<br>&gt; T to X be invalid.<br><br>Okay, so we agree that the text alone is not enough -- one must know the<br>context to understand a phrase such as &quot;Australian languages&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;So much<br>for _sola scriptura_.&nbsp;&nbsp;And I agree with all of your particular points.
<br><br>What remains, then, is whether it&#39;s enough just to look at information<br>from linguistics alone, or whether we also have to look at the practices<br>of large segments of the tagging community, particularly when (as in
<br>the case of MARC and Ethnologue) the ISO tags are originally derived<br>from their systems.&nbsp;&nbsp;I say yes, that the MARC interpretation controls<br>unless specifically overridden by ISO.<br><br>--<br>In politics, obedience and support&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;John Cowan &lt;
<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt;<br>are the same thing.&nbsp;&nbsp;--Hannah Arendt&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="http://www.ccil.org/~cowan">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 24 22:13:44 2007
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> To take an analogy, if I want to know what a particular character in
> Unicode means, I need to look at the text of the standard and associated
> data, as viewed by a reasonably knowledgeable person.

ISO 639 is severely under-documented compared to Unicode or even
ISO 10646.

-- 
In politics, obedience and support      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
are the same thing.  --Hannah Arendt    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 25 05:20:56 2007
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Subject: [Ltru] OT: ISO/TC 37 Survey on terminology and other language and
	content resources standards
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Hi

We are conducting some market research for ISO/TC 37.  As some of these
standards, e.g. the ISO 639 family, are used within IETF standards, this is
an ideal opportunity for users to give useful feedback, on future needs and
fitness for purpose of the current standards as well as informing users of
the upcoming range of standards currently being developed by ISO/TC 37.  

The results of this survey will be published in August 2007 at the TC 37
meeting in Provo.

Please click the following link to participate:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=986723817027

Many thanks




Debbie Garside
Managing Director

ICT Marketing Ltd
Corner House
Barn Street
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire SA61 1BW
Wales UK

Tel: 0044 1437 766441
Fax: 0044 1437 766173

Web: http://www.ictmarketing.co.uk 





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