From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 00:02:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyKUU-0007v3-Vi; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 00:02:10 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyKUT-0007ur-Lq for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 00:02:09 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyKUT-0007uh-BV for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 00:02:09 -0500 Received: from mta16.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyKUS-0007eT-VQ for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 00:02:09 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071201050208.VPUS6735.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:02:08 -0500 Message-ID: <001b01c833d7$52f4a890$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:02:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Subject: [Ltru] The true meaning of "macrolanguage" (was: Re: John Cowan...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > If Kwanyama and Ndonga are distinct languages and if "Oshiwambo" can > refer to either and is in some contexts used as though it were a > single language rather than a collection, then it can be considered a > macrolanguage. But if Oshiwambo refers to a distinct variety that is > not the same as either Kwanyama or Ndonga but is used or coming into > use by speakers of both Kwanyama and Ndonga communities, then it might > make more sense to consider Oshiwambo an individual language. Peter has always been very clear and consistent in his explanation of the term "macrolanguage," and the paragraph above is no exception. However, I fear there is still a great deal of misunderstanding surrounding this term, and I hope Peter and the ISO 639-3/RA are bold in explaining and promoting the correct use of this term, which is not synonymous with "language family," "language collection," "dominant language," or any other term. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 02:01:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyMLt-0004Se-Ur; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 02:01:25 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyMLs-0004SV-3B for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 02:01:24 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyMLr-0004SE-Li for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 02:01:23 -0500 Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyMLr-0004Fq-A7 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 02:01:23 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:00:48 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.117]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:01:22 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:01:18 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Fallback vs. Macrolanguage? (was: John Cowan throws in...) Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Fallback vs. Macrolanguage? (was: John Cowan throws in...) Thread-Index: Acgz1BwzbRkWZS1UQ9+OUBSwfoczRAAE0prA Message-ID: References: <001301c833d4$17585f50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <001301c833d4$17585f50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: AYph A1Sl BI3W CPg1 CTxT C+fG EEBo FL8M FTGM FjAc Fxre F5P9 GOoV HTn7 Hw9b IDGK; 1; bAB0AHIAdQBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA=; Sosha1_v1; 7; {055171B3-C0CD-4574-AE87-76DBC0E0DEF0}; cABlAHQAZQByAGMAbwBuAEAAbQBpAGMAcgBvAHMAbwBmAHQALgBjAG8AbQA=; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:01:18 GMT; UgBFADoAIABbAEwAdAByAHUAXQAgAFIAZQA6ACAARgBhAGwAbABiAGEAYwBrACAAdgBzAC4AIABNAGEAYwByAG8AbABhAG4AZwB1AGEAZwBlAD8AIAAoAHcAYQBzADoAIABKAG8AaABuACAAQwBvAHcAYQBuACAAdABoAHIAbwB3AHMACQBpAG4ALgAuAC4AKQA= x-cr-puzzleid: {055171B3-C0CD-4574-AE87-76DBC0E0DEF0} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1877808006==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1877808006== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBGcm9tOiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsIFttYWlsdG86ZGV3ZWxsQHJvYWRydW5uZXIuY29tXQ0KDQo+IEhv d2V2ZXIsIEkgc3Ryb25nbHkgb3Bwb3NlIGFueSBlZmZvcnRzIHRvIGFkZCBvdXIgb3duLCBub24t SVNPIDYzOQ0KPiBtYXBwaW5ncyB0byB0aGUgUmVnaXN0cnksIGV2ZW4gc2VlbWluZ2x5IG9idmlv dXMgb25lcyBsaWtlIEJyZXRvbiAtPg0KPiBGcmVuY2guDQoNCkkgYWdyZWUuIFVzZXJzIHNob3Vs ZCBjaG9vc2UgdGhlaXIgb3duIGxhbmd1YWdlIGZhbGxiYWNrcy4gQSBhbiBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBm YWxsYmFjayBmb3IgT3JpeWEgbWlnaHQgYXMgcmVhZGlseSBiZSBCZW5nYWxpIG9yIEhpbmRpIG9y IEthbm5hZGEsIGRlcGVuZGluZyBvbiB0aGUgdXNlci4gVGhhdCBpbiBhZGRpdGlvbiB0byB0aGUg aXNzdWVzIERvdWcgbWVudGlvbnMuDQoNCg0KPiAgVGhhdCB3YXkgbGllcyBjb21wbGV0ZSBtYWRu ZXNzLiAgV2Ugd2lsbCBuZXZlciBjb21lIGFueXdoZXJlDQo+IGNsb3NlIHRvIGdldHRpbmcgYWxs IG9mIHRoZW0sIGFuZCB3ZSB3aWxsIGJlIHJldmlsZWQgZm9yICJpZ25vcmluZyIgdGhlDQo+IG9u ZXMgd2UgbWlzcywgYW5kIGV2ZXJ5IGRlY2lzaW9uIHRvIGVpdGhlciBpbmNsdWRlIG9yIG5vdCBp bmNsdWRlIHNvbWUNCj4gbWFwcGluZyB3aWxsIGJlIHZpZXdlZCBieSBzb21lb25lIGFzIGFuIGlu dGVudGlvbmFsIHNsaWdodCBvciBhdHRlbXB0ZWQNCj4gc3VianVnYXRpb24gb2Ygb25lIG9mIHRo ZSBsYW5ndWFnZXMgaW52b2x2ZWQuICBQbGVhc2UsIGxldCdzIGxlYXZlIHRoaXMNCj4ga2luZCBv ZiBtYXBwaW5nIHVwIHRvIGVhY2ggYXBwbGljYXRpb24uDQoNCg0KDQpQZXRlcg0K --===============1877808006== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1877808006==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 08:27:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IySNF-0001SZ-LT; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:27:13 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IySNE-0001SG-AG for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:27:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IySND-0001QG-Vp for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:27:11 -0500 Received: from bortzmeyer.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IySNC-0007oT-HA for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:27:11 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 67ACF24080E; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:26:56 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E25EE111B2; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:25:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:25:44 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20071201132544.GA15231@sources.org> References: <001301c833d4$17585f50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001301c833d4$17585f50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fallback vs. Macrolanguage? (was: John Cowan throws in...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 08:38:58PM -0800, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 38 lines which said: > However, I strongly oppose any efforts to add our own, non-ISO 639 > mappings to the Registry, even seemingly obvious ones like Breton -> > French. Like many people here, I agree. (One of the reasons being that such mappings would not be very stable.) > Please, let's leave this kind of mapping up to each application. But I don't think we should add this solution. I understand the need for user-specific mappings but I do not see why an application-specific mapping could be useful. An "official" "fallback mapping" somewhere (ISO 639-something?) would be very useful. But I agree that it is not our job. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 08:36:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IySW1-0003Fo-0d; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:36:17 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IySVz-0003Fg-2k for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:36:15 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IySVy-0003FY-PQ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:36:14 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IySVx-00089A-3o for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:36:14 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IySVf-0002ie-Gt for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:35:55 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:35:55 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:35:55 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:37:51 +0100 Organization: Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <001701c833d5$d4f473e0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: ietf-http-wg@w3.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Language tags in the future version of HTTP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote on the LTRU list: =20 > Cross-references like that are generally considered a good thing, > aren't they? They reduce the chances of introducing a typo that > changes the ABNF, and serve to discourage each application from > adopting their own, slightly different syntax. Depends. For 2616bis they could use a simplified syntax in the direction of tag =3D primary *( "-" auxiliary ) directly expanded in tag =3D 1*8( ALPHA / DIGIT ) *( "-" 1*8( ALPHA / DIGIT )) with a note in prose that tags are actually supposed to be BCP 47 tags. > "Self-sufficiency" should be a complete non-goal. As proposed above, where is the problem ? I guess 2616bis needs also ranges (with "*" stars) based on RFC 4617 somewhere, that is also covered by BCP 47, but references in RFCs to BCPs, STDs, etc. are typically given by their RFC number (at least for documents created with xml2rfc). > How many modern RFCs seek to define MUST and SHOULD independently > of RFC 2119 RFC 2821 and I-D.klensin-2821bis come to mind. It's a royal pain to check that these definitions are verbatim copies not citing the source for a very esoteric reason (arguably 2821bis doesn't follow the one and only MUST in chapter 6 of 2119). > or the format of a mail message independently of RFC (2)822? Well, HTTP does some things with MIME you won't find in RFC 2045 ;-) Frank (cc hhtpbis) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 08:49:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IySix-0006eu-KU; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:49:39 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IySix-0006ep-5h for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:49:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IySiw-0006eh-SN for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:49:38 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IySiv-00009F-Jj for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:49:38 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IySee-0004i5-Mh for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:45:12 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:45:12 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:45:12 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:45:37 +0100 Organization: Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <20071129143920.GC32134@mercury.ccil.org> <007601c832d3$73a6d220$5af47660$@net><20071129223947.GI20488@mercury.ccil.org> <474F42F3.7010404@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > if John's towel stays thrown, it wouldn't impact RFC 4646bis. The extlang-ABNF and the "longest tag" discussion are affected, or are you talking about 4645bis ? Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 09:24:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyTGd-0001uB-Q1; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:24:27 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyTGc-0001u4-Fr for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:24:26 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyTGc-0001tv-6G for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:24:26 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyTGb-0001GV-3z for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:24:26 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyTGO-0006Ir-N3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:24:12 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:24:12 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:24:12 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:26:04 +0100 Organization: Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <200711291723.SAA00561@balsa.cetp.ipsl.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Elisabeth Porteneuve wrote: [2. about the 2006 ed. of ISO 3166 and 50 years] > Yes. Thanks for info, maybe the Netnews RFC can be updated in AUTH48 (it's actually almost irrelevant for Netnews, not the same situation as for 4646bis). > All change of the world in Europe in 1990's until the most recent > split into Serbia and Montenegro are related to the second world > war. To some extent the second war is being finished now. Kosovo will be the next. =20 =20 > I am optimistic, at least as far as Europe is concerned, to not > see much changes in country codes. I'm optimistic to see changes for regions where the population apparently wishes to gain independence of their "encompassing" country. For regions like Iraq or Somalia registering existing entities like Somaliland might be the best possible solution. > Concerning languages, I noted the inflation related to the > former Yugoslavia split - the Serbo-Croatian, or Yugoslavian, > was replicated with N different names. That is of course=20 > politically sad, as all people from the former Yugoslavia > speaks Yugoslavian, Southern Slavic language (yug=3Dsouth). Right, but ISO 639 has alpha3 code elements, they're likely never forced to "recycle" code elements. For country codes there's apparently also a tradition of creating "meaningful" code elements, so far that worked. YT is a counter-example, but still somehow related to maYoTte. =20 > Eventually, I would be happy to answer any questions related > to ISO 3166/MA or ISO 3166-1 tables, or to provide in advance > information when changes may arise. Please feel free to ask > me directly (I will unsubscribe from ltru list shortly, going > back to browsing archives from time to time). Thanks, with Debbie's help we managed to avoid the ugliest traps and pitfalls for RFC 4646. For the DG+EA+IC+... zoo I hope that it won't pass an IAB review. The IETF isn't supposed to overrule RFC 1591 without first publishing a 1591bis (IMO, of couse, and obviously IANA already managed this stunt with its odd ccTLD EU). Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 09:40:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyTVk-0004DM-Ue; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:40:04 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyTVj-0004Ao-PA for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:40:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyTVj-0004Af-Ff for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:40:03 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyTVh-0001lO-SS for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:40:03 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyTVX-0001pq-4a for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:39:51 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:39:51 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:39:51 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:41:49 +0100 Organization: Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <003d01c83254$ddd0cef0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: action item: "other" collections in 639 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: >>> I've suggested in the past that removing collection IDs from >>> BCP47 might not be a bad idea, but on several occasions people >>> have indicated that they wish to have the collections kept. >> "Removing" can't fly. Do you mean "not add new" (in the 4645bis >> bulk update), "deprecate old", or both ? =20 > Deprecate, and not add new. Okay. Then it could make sense to deprecate some giving a new preferred value based on your list. Ideally in a form where Doug can reference a better source than an archived article in 4645bis, but if all else fails a "WG decision" is good enough. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 10:19:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyU7Z-0000f8-Al; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:19:09 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyU7X-0000bV-II for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:19:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyU7X-0000bN-8g for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:19:07 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyU7X-00035G-0Q for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:19:07 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:18:31 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.111]) with mapi; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:19:06 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:19:02 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Fallback vs. Macrolanguage? (was: John Cowan throws in...) Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Fallback vs. Macrolanguage? (was: John Cowan throws in...) Thread-Index: Acg0HeSTXYtXuFxVR4e/pqxRfO3xbQADru/g Message-ID: References: <001301c833d4$17585f50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071201132544.GA15231@sources.org> In-Reply-To: <20071201132544.GA15231@sources.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] > An "official" "fallback mapping" somewhere (ISO 639-something?) would > be very useful. I disagree. A user with a system set for Breton as the preferred UI languag= e might want to fallback to French or Japanese or Swahili -- it all depends= on the user. Perhaps French is a reasonable default that could be assumed = in that case in the absence of other information, but that's just one case.= What is the fallback for German in Switzerland? What is the fallback for H= indi in India? What is the fallback for Inuktitut, or Filipino? Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 10:30:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyUIF-0006dz-8T; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:30:11 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyUID-0006aB-Vn for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:30:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyUID-0006a3-MD for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:30:09 -0500 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyUIC-0003S9-Dd for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:30:09 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:29:33 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.186]) with mapi; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:30:07 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:30:02 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: action item: "other" collections in 639 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: action item: "other" collections in 639 Thread-Index: Acg0KBG/jv+u0YTPQVeyIipBdToLowABq0aA Message-ID: References: <003d01c83254$ddd0cef0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1231538349==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1231538349== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBGcm9tOiBGcmFuayBFbGxlcm1hbm4gW21haWx0bzpub2JvZHlAeHl6enkuY2xhcmFuZXQuZGVd DQoNCj4gPj4+IEkndmUgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIGluIHRoZSBwYXN0IHRoYXQgcmVtb3ZpbmcgY29sbGVj dGlvbiBJRHMgZnJvbQ0KPiA+Pj4gQkNQNDcgbWlnaHQgbm90IGJlIGEgYmFkIGlkZWEsIGJ1dCBv biBzZXZlcmFsIG9jY2FzaW9ucyBwZW9wbGUNCj4gPj4+IGhhdmUgaW5kaWNhdGVkIHRoYXQgdGhl eSB3aXNoIHRvIGhhdmUgdGhlIGNvbGxlY3Rpb25zIGtlcHQuDQo+DQo+ID4+ICJSZW1vdmluZyIg Y2FuJ3QgZmx5LiAgRG8geW91IG1lYW4gIm5vdCBhZGQgbmV3IiAoaW4gdGhlIDQ2NDViaXMNCj4g Pj4gYnVsayB1cGRhdGUpLCAiZGVwcmVjYXRlIG9sZCIsIG9yIGJvdGggPw0KPg0KPiA+IERlcHJl Y2F0ZSwgYW5kIG5vdCBhZGQgbmV3Lg0KPg0KPiBPa2F5LiAgVGhlbiBpdCBjb3VsZCBtYWtlIHNl bnNlIHRvIGRlcHJlY2F0ZSBzb21lIGdpdmluZyBhIG5ldw0KPiBwcmVmZXJyZWQgdmFsdWUgYmFz ZWQgb24geW91ciBsaXN0Lg0KDQpVbS4uLiBJIGhhdmUgbm8gaWRlYSB3aGF0IHlvdSdyZSByZWZl cnJpbmcgdG86IEkgaGF2ZW4ndCBnaXZlbiBhbnkgbGlzdCB0aGF0IHJlbGF0ZXMgdG8gY29sbGVj dGlvbnMsIHRoYXQgSSByZWNhbGwuDQoNCg0KUGV0ZXINCg== --===============1231538349== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1231538349==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 12:07:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyVon-00069f-9C; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:07:53 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyVom-00067G-Cb for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:07:52 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyVom-00065V-1L for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:07:52 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyVol-0001gk-Mr for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:07:51 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071201170751.GDCN20104.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:07:51 -0500 Message-ID: <006501c8343c$b49fe900$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001301c833d4$17585f50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071201132544.GA15231@sources.org> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 09:07:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fallback vs. Macrolanguage? (was: John Cowan throws in...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> Please, let's leave this kind of mapping up to each application. > > But I don't think we should add this solution. I understand the need > for user-specific mappings but I do not see why an > application-specific mapping could be useful. Sorry, I meant "application" not only in the sense of a program, but also a human user or another standard or specification that uses BCP 47. I tried to use "application" in the sense it is often used in IETF documents. > An "official" "fallback mapping" somewhere (ISO 639-something?) would > be very useful. But I agree that it is not our job. As Peter said, I don't think anyone else could make these generalized pronouncements any better than we could. It's an individual choice. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 12:16:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyVxB-0001mm-QE; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:16:33 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyVx9-0001jE-Tf for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:16:31 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyVx9-0001j6-K7 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:16:31 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyVx8-00079A-VP for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:16:31 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071201171630.SYY3502.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:16:30 -0500 Message-ID: <006901c8343d$ea1f2c20$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 09:16:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: >> 3) The audio content we tag with the "zh" tag is sometimes Cantonese. > > No problem. When you know it is Cantonese, you'd be encouraged to > switch to "yue". When you know it is Mandarin, you may use "cmn", > but that might cause interop problems with applications that don't > know that tag. Isn't that equally true for "yue"? >> 4) We need a tag for written Cantonese used in subtitles, and today >> we use "zh-yue." > > That will still be valid, but deprecated; you'd be encouraged to > switch to "yue". Then if they currently use "zh-cmn" for some Mandarin purpose, wouldn't they be equally encouraged to switch to "cmn"? "zh" has historically been used to tag much more Mandarin than Cantonese or any other flavor of Chinese, but "zh" does not specifically mean Mandarin. I was sure you and I agreed on that. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 12:45:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyWPX-0004aH-Dj; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:45:51 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyWPW-0004aB-SE for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:45:50 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyWPW-0004a2-IG for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:45:50 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyWPW-00034D-4X for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:45:50 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071201174549.IUZJ20104.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:45:49 -0500 Message-ID: <006d01c83442$02855ec0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 09:45:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Language tags in the future version of HTTP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> Cross-references like that are generally considered a good thing, >> aren't they? They reduce the chances of introducing a typo that >> changes the ABNF, and serve to discourage each application from >> adopting their own, slightly different syntax. > > Depends. For 2616bis they could use a simplified syntax in the > direction of tag = primary *( "-" auxiliary ) directly expanded in > tag = 1*8( ALPHA / DIGIT ) *( "-" 1*8( ALPHA / DIGIT )) with a note > in prose that tags are actually supposed to be BCP 47 tags. We tried that with the "grandfathered" production in 4646, and we got complaints from people unhappy with the loose syntax that appeared, taken out of context, to allow "en-a-b-c-d-e". Having the real definition in prose didn't seem to help. Now we have a separate "irregular" production that enumerates all the grandfathered tags that don't fit the rest of the syntax. (BTW, are we going to remove the extlang production from the syntax and add a lot more items to the "irregular" list, or are we going to leave the production in place and cause people to scratch their heads wondering what it's there for?) >> "Self-sufficiency" should be a complete non-goal. > > As proposed above, where is the problem ? If their home-grown syntax doesn't agree with BCP 47, it's not clear which one people will believe. Remember how many people thought RFC 1766 and 3066 promised only "xx" and "xx-XX". -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 12:49:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyWSy-0005FV-5F; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:49:24 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyWSx-0005FQ-5t for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:49:23 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyWSw-0005FH-Se for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:49:22 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyWSu-0008Hp-LB for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:49:22 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071201174920.JVFO6607.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:49:20 -0500 Message-ID: <006f01c83442$802a7090$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 09:49:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Subject: [Ltru] RFC 1591 (was: Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09.txt) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > Thanks, with Debbie's help we managed to avoid the ugliest traps and > pitfalls for RFC 4646. For the DG+EA+IC+... zoo I hope that it won't > pass an IAB review. The IETF isn't supposed to overrule RFC 1591 > without first publishing a 1591bis (IMO, of couse, and obviously IANA > already managed this stunt with its odd ccTLD EU). Don't forget their use of "UK" as a ccTLD instead of the ISO 3166 standard "GB", and their use of other exceptionally reserved code elements such as "AC". -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 13:31:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyX7g-00063q-0p; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:31:28 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyX7f-00063l-NF for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:31:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyX7f-00063Z-DV for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:31:27 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyX7e-0001Hp-VA for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:31:27 -0500 Received: from [10.72.73.65] (snvvpn1-10-72-73-c65.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.73.65]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB1IV7nY053510; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:31:07 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DXNuk0hK1ECyt/sRIV4ddnaeA4APosENGOK+UmqbamA6S6hIdihZLWib3Ys6nFlD Message-ID: <4751A86B.9070802@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:31:07 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs References: <20071129143920.GC32134@mercury.ccil.org> <007601c832d3$73a6d220$5af47660$@net><20071129223947.GI20488@mercury.ccil.org> <474F42F3.7010404@yahoo-inc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > Addison Phillips wrote: > >> if John's towel stays thrown, it wouldn't impact RFC 4646bis. > > The extlang-ABNF and the "longest tag" discussion are affected, > or are you talking about 4645bis ? > Context is everything :-). The "it" in my sentence above refers to the impact of new Macrolanguage assignments by ISO 639. New Macrolanguage assignments, assuming no extlangs (i.e. a fully thrown, unretrieved towel), would have no impact on 4646bis. The ABNF, longest tag, and other things, of course, are affected by the demise of extlangs. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 13:37:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXDg-0001KK-5Q; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:37:40 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXDe-0001Cu-PS for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:37:38 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXDe-0001B8-FG for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:37:38 -0500 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXDe-0001W5-5J for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:37:38 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:37:03 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.117]) with mapi; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:37:37 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:37:32 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs Thread-Index: Acg0Pe1lMYsOUAswSJ2w0RCus06KvQACm3Ug Message-ID: References: <006901c8343d$ea1f2c20$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <006901c8343d$ea1f2c20$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1094150830==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1094150830== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBGcm9tOiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsIFttYWlsdG86ZGV3ZWxsQHJvYWRydW5uZXIuY29tXQ0KDQoNCj4g Pj4gNCkgIFdlIG5lZWQgYSB0YWcgZm9yIHdyaXR0ZW4gQ2FudG9uZXNlIHVzZWQgaW4gc3VidGl0 bGVzLCBhbmQgdG9kYXkNCj4gPj4gd2UgdXNlICJ6aC15dWUuIg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gVGhhdCB3aWxs IHN0aWxsIGJlIHZhbGlkLCBidXQgZGVwcmVjYXRlZDsgeW91J2QgYmUgZW5jb3VyYWdlZCB0bw0K PiA+IHN3aXRjaCB0byAieXVlIi4NCj4NCj4gVGhlbiBpZiB0aGV5IGN1cnJlbnRseSB1c2UgInpo LWNtbiIgZm9yIHNvbWUgTWFuZGFyaW4gcHVycG9zZSwgd291bGRuJ3QNCj4gdGhleSBiZSBlcXVh bGx5IGVuY291cmFnZWQgdG8gc3dpdGNoIHRvICJjbW4iPw0KDQpUaGVyZSB3YXMgYSB0aW1lIHdo ZW4gVHJhZGl0aW9uYWwgQ2hpbmVzZSBjb250ZW50IHdhcyBvZnRlbiB0YWdnZWQgemgtVFcgYW5k IFNpbXBsaWZpZWQgQ2hpbmVzZSBjb250ZW50IHdhcyB0YWdnZWQgemgtQ04uIFRoZXJlJ3MgYmVl biBzb21lIHRyYW5zaXRpb24gaW4gaW5kdXN0cnkgaGVyZSwgdGhvdWdoIEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyBo b3cgbXVjaCBpbmFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIHVzZSBvZiB6aC1UVyBvciB6aC1DTiBzdGlsbCBsaW5nZXJz LiAoT2YgY291cnNlLCBpbiB0ZXJtcyBvZiB0aGlzIGlzc3VlLCB6aC1DTiBhbmQgemgtVFcgbWF5 IHN0aWxsIGJlIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIGZvciBsb2NhbGUgaWRlbnRpZmljYXRpb24uKQ0KDQpSZWNv bW1lbmRpbmcgYSB0cmFuc2l0aW9uIGZyb20gemggdG8gY21uLCB5dWUgZXRjLiB3b3VsZCBoYXZl IHNvbWUgbWVyaXRzLCBidXQgbWFraW5nIHRoYXQgdHJhbnNpdGlvbiB3b3VsZCBiZSBtdWNoIG1v cmUgb2YgYW4gdXBoaWxsIGNsaW1iLg0KDQoNCj4gInpoIiBoYXMgaGlzdG9yaWNhbGx5IGJlZW4g dXNlZCB0byB0YWcgbXVjaCBtb3JlIE1hbmRhcmluIHRoYW4NCj4gQ2FudG9uZXNlDQo+IG9yIGFu eSBvdGhlciBmbGF2b3Igb2YgQ2hpbmVzZSwgYnV0ICJ6aCIgZG9lcyBub3Qgc3BlY2lmaWNhbGx5 IG1lYW4NCj4gTWFuZGFyaW4uICBJIHdhcyBzdXJlIHlvdSBhbmQgSSBhZ3JlZWQgb24gdGhhdC4N Cg0KQW5kIEknbSBxdWl0ZSBjZXJ0YWluIEpvaG4gaGFzIG5vdCBjaGFuZ2VkIGhpcyB0aG91Z2h0 cyBpbiB0aGF0IHJlZ2FyZC4NCg0KDQpQZXRlcg0K --===============1094150830== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1094150830==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 13:40:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXGe-0007PJ-5i; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:40:44 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXGd-0007PE-Ka for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:40:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXGd-0007P6-BA for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:40:43 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXGc-0001bh-Sy for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:40:43 -0500 Received: from [10.72.73.65] (snvvpn1-10-72-73-c65.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.73.65]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB1Ieck4053919; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:40:38 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GfpLrc3arRIIc3sxa/cXU5ZXh3zOjabMZk7hFT1+oM1jom70EcoBmQccBNct3SsP Message-ID: <4751AAA6.7090604@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:40:38 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Fallback vs. Macrolanguage? References: <001301c833d4$17585f50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071201132544.GA15231@sources.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > >> An "official" "fallback mapping" somewhere (ISO 639-something?) would >> be very useful. > > I disagree. A user with a system set for Breton as the > preferred UI language might want to fallback to French or > Japanese or Swahili -- it all depends on the user. Perhaps > French is a reasonable default that could be assumed in > that case in the absence of other information, but that's > just one case. What is the fallback for German in Switzerland? > What is the fallback for Hindi in India? What is the > fallback for Inuktitut, or Filipino? > > +1 I think the Breton example has been beaten to pieces. If my application wishes to associate French as the fallback for Breton when Breton is not available, that's my application's business. Your application may do otherwise. At the BCP 47 level we should avoid making any attempt at making mappings like this at all normative. More to the point: mappings of this nature are someone's guess as to what an appropriate fallback would be absent further information from the user. It would be unsurprising if, for a Web application, other information would also applied in that case. All of this is outside the realm of RFC 4647's algorithms (except to say they are examples of 'implementation defined defaults' in the Lookup algorithm). Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 13:44:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXK5-0007zf-Jv; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:44:17 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXK4-0007z3-3k for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:44:16 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXK3-0007yt-Or for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:44:15 -0500 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXK3-00054z-ES for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:44:15 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:43:40 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.186]) with mapi; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:44:14 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:44:07 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Language tags in the future version of HTTP Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Language tags in the future version of HTTP Thread-Index: Acg0QghPOD/7K42aQcWmVetBOhn3KgAB1DxQ Message-ID: References: <006d01c83442$02855ec0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <006d01c83442$02855ec0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: BnGh B5ju B9Zu DwxD EAp7 FqCp Fr6R Fw+9 F71u GE/c GKPS HN7v I8zA JQNS JmGX LFyV; 1; bAB0AHIAdQBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA=; Sosha1_v1; 7; {B4DFB595-17E6-4B1F-AA2D-CCB0DE566437}; cABlAHQAZQByAGMAbwBuAEAAbQBpAGMAcgBvAHMAbwBmAHQALgBjAG8AbQA=; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:44:07 GMT; UgBFADoAIABbAEwAdAByAHUAXQAgAFIAZQA6ACAATABhAG4AZwB1AGEAZwBlACAAdABhAGcAcwAgAGkAbgAgAHQAaABlACAAZgB1AHQAdQByAGUAIAB2AGUAcgBzAGkAbwBuACAAbwBmACAASABUAFQAUAA= x-cr-puzzleid: {B4DFB595-17E6-4B1F-AA2D-CCB0DE566437} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1667429778==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1667429778== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBGcm9tOiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsIFttYWlsdG86ZGV3ZWxsQHJvYWRydW5uZXIuY29tXQ0KDQo+IChC VFcsIGFyZSB3ZSBnb2luZyB0byByZW1vdmUgdGhlIGV4dGxhbmcgcHJvZHVjdGlvbiBmcm9tIHRo ZSBzeW50YXggYW5kDQo+IGFkZCBhIGxvdCBtb3JlIGl0ZW1zIHRvIHRoZSAiaXJyZWd1bGFyIiBs aXN0LCBvciBhcmUgd2UgZ29pbmcgdG8gbGVhdmUNCj4gdGhlIHByb2R1Y3Rpb24gaW4gcGxhY2Ug YW5kIGNhdXNlIHBlb3BsZSB0byBzY3JhdGNoIHRoZWlyIGhlYWRzDQo+IHdvbmRlcmluZyB3aGF0 IGl0J3MgdGhlcmUgZm9yPykNCg0KV2VsbCwgdGhhdCdzIHVwIHRvIHRoaXMgbGlzdCB0byBkZWNp ZGUuIEl0IHdhcyB3aGF0IHRob3NlIG9mIHVzIGluIHRoZSB0ZWxlY29uZiBoYWQgaW4gbWluZC4g SXQgbG9va3MgdG8gbWUgbGlrZSB0aGVyZSBoYXNuJ3QgYmVlbiBhIGNsZWFyIHN0YXRlbWVudCBv ZiByZWNvbW1lbmRhdGlvbnMgY29taW5nIG91dCBvZiB0aGF0IHRlbGVjb25mLCBzbyBJJ2xsIHdy aXRlIHNlcGFyYXRlbHkgb24gdGhhdC4NCg0KDQo+IElmIHRoZWlyIGhvbWUtZ3Jvd24gc3ludGF4 IGRvZXNuJ3QgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCBCQ1AgNDcsIGl0J3Mgbm90IGNsZWFyDQo+IHdoaWNoIG9uZSBw ZW9wbGUgd2lsbCBiZWxpZXZlLiAgUmVtZW1iZXIgaG93IG1hbnkgcGVvcGxlIHRob3VnaHQgUkZD DQo+IDE3NjYgYW5kIDMwNjYgcHJvbWlzZWQgb25seSAieHgiIGFuZCAieHgtWFgiLg0KDQorMQ0K DQoNClBldGVyDQo= --===============1667429778== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1667429778==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 13:59:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXYR-0006cE-M8; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:59:07 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXYQ-0006c7-FU for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:59:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXYQ-0006by-5o for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:59:06 -0500 Received: from maila.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyXYO-0002JC-4M for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:59:06 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:58:29 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:59:03 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:58:57 -0800 Thread-Topic: summary of recommendations coming out of this week's teleconf Thread-Index: Acg0TDoi/erpcOT4Q4OkdoIjRI0QTg== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 17bdfcaea25d1444baef0e24abc38874 Subject: [Ltru] summary of recommendations coming out of this week's teleconf X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1770582149==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1770582149== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579561E4CB3125NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579561E4CB3125NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable During the teleconf call this week, those of us that participated came to c= onsensus on recommending these directions for 4646bis (at least, this is th= e understanding I came away with): - Do not pursue use of the extlang subtag; remove extlang from the= ABNF. - Allow all 639-3 code elements as language subtags. - Deprecate all grandfathered tags like "zh-yue" in favour of just= "yue". - Deprecate redundant "sgn-??" tags in favour of the 639-3 code el= ement having the same denotation. - Come up with appropriate recommendations for matching or fallbac= k between a given macrolanguage its encompassed languages. We did not have discussion leading to any specific conclusions regarding ma= tching/fallback or fields that might be added to entries to support that. We did not discuss whether any macrolanguage IDs should be deprecated; e.g.= whether zh should be deprecated in favour of cmn, yue, etc. Peter --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579561E4CB3125NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

During the teleconf call this week, those of us that participated came to consensus on recommending these directions for 4646bis= (at least, this is the understanding I came away with):

 

-&nb= sp;         Do not pursue use of the ext= lang subtag; remove extlang from the ABNF.

-&nb= sp;         Allow all 639-3 code element= s as language subtags.

-&nb= sp;         Deprecate all grandfathered = tags like “zh-yue” in favour of just “yue”.

-&nb= sp;         Deprecate redundant “s= gn-??” tags in favour of the 639-3 code element having the same denotation.

-&nb= sp;         Come up with appropriate rec= ommendations for matching or fallback between a given macrolanguage its encompassed languages.

 

We did not have discussion leading to any specific con= clusions regarding matching/fallback or fields that might be added to entries to sup= port that.

 

We did not discuss whether any macrolanguage IDs shoul= d be deprecated; e.g. whether zh should be deprecated in favour of cmn, yue, etc= .

 

 

Peter

 

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579561E4CB3125NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============1770582149== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1770582149==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 14:48:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyYKN-0000Fi-4R; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:48:39 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyYKL-0000D2-Nh for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:48:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyYKL-0000Ct-Bk for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:48:37 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyYKJ-0003zf-3b for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:48:37 -0500 Received: from [10.72.73.65] (snvvpn1-10-72-73-c65.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.73.65]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB1JmKEW056372; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:48:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JeeU4SbwDgtgIiJ2E5FZT87sowYZXQgSyo5Jno2lyoOzJfIQWJM5Fcv0LECXwFXx Message-ID: <4751BA84.6020908@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 11:48:20 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] summary of recommendations coming out of this week's teleconf References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com id lB1JmKEW056372 X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I believe Peter's summary captures the essence of what came out of the=20 teleconference. Addison Peter Constable wrote: > During the teleconf call this week, those of us that participated came=20 > to consensus on recommending these directions for 4646bis (at least,=20 > this is the understanding I came away with): >=20 > =20 >=20 > - Do not pursue use of the extlang subtag; remove extlang from= =20 > the ABNF. >=20 > - Allow all 639-3 code elements as language subtags. >=20 > - Deprecate all grandfathered tags like =E2=80=9Czh-yue=E2=80=9D= in favour of=20 > just =E2=80=9Cyue=E2=80=9D. >=20 > - Deprecate redundant =E2=80=9Csgn-??=E2=80=9D tags in favour = of the 639-3 code=20 > element having the same denotation. >=20 > - Come up with appropriate recommendations for matching or=20 > fallback between a given macrolanguage its encompassed languages. >=20 > =20 >=20 > We did not have discussion leading to any specific conclusions regardin= g=20 > matching/fallback or fields that might be added to entries to support t= hat. >=20 > =20 >=20 > We did not discuss whether any macrolanguage IDs should be deprecated;=20 > e.g. whether zh should be deprecated in favour of cmn, yue, etc. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Peter >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 16:23:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyZnr-0004jc-TW; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:23:11 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyZnq-0004hU-LW for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:23:10 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyZnq-0004fT-B6 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:23:10 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyZno-0007A6-Rv for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:23:10 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071201212308.YCSL6607.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:23:08 -0500 Message-ID: <007801c83460$5e6d3820$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:23:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Subject: [Ltru] FX is deprecated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Draft-4646bis-09 specifies that the ISO 3166-1 exceptionally reserved ("ER") code elements are to be added to the Language Subtag Registry, except for UK, because it is an exact synonym for GB. The remaining ER code elements are AC, CP, DG, EA, EU, FX, IC, and TA. Of these, only FX was previously a formally assigned code element (for "Metropolitan France," then as now). The others were never assigned, but were reserved at the request of another organization. FX was assigned in 1993 and withdrawn in 1997, after the publication of RFC 1766; because of this, it was added to the initial LSR but deprecated, with a Preferred-Value of FR. According to Section 3.4, item 1 (in both RFC 4646 and draft-4646bis-09), "Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time." This means a deprecated subtag like FX cannot be un-deprecated. Because of this, FX will be unchanged by the new provision in 4646bis and will remain deprecated, while the other seven ER code elements will become new, non-deprecated subtags. Is everyone comfortable with this? -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 16:47:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaBb-0003Ei-07; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:47:43 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaBa-0003EX-DH for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:47:42 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaBa-0003EN-3S for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:47:42 -0500 Received: from virtual3.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaBP-0001dQ-TK for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:47:42 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 49D4624080E; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:46:55 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3CDC912E57; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 22:44:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 22:44:37 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20071201214437.GA18104@sources.org> References: <007801c83460$5e6d3820$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <007801c83460$5e6d3820$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: FX is deprecated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sat, Dec 01, 2007 at 01:23:07PM -0800, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 34 lines which said: > Because of this, FX will be unchanged by the new provision in > 4646bis and will remain deprecated, while the other seven ER code > elements will become new, non-deprecated subtags. Is everyone > comfortable with this? FX is completely unknown in France so nobody will regret it. It could be argued that "metropolitan France" means something for the language and that fr-FX could be sensible but I'm certain noone will never think of it when tagging. Most people in France use "France" as a synonym for "metropolitan France", for instance in weather reports, when saying "it will rain tomorrow everywhere in France", the speaker never bothers to check if the sun will shine over Polynesia or West Indies. > This means a deprecated subtag like FX cannot be un-deprecated. So, even if ISO 3166 resurrects it, we won't? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 16:51:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaEr-0005t1-V3; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:51:05 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaEr-0005su-Mn for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:51:05 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaEr-0005sl-DC for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:51:05 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaEe-00029o-SN for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:51:05 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071201215047.ZXWL6607.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:50:47 -0500 Message-ID: <008d01c83464$3b4dfd80$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:50:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Subject: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > Recommending a transition from zh to cmn, yue etc. would have some > merits, but making that transition would be much more of an uphill > climb. But no differently for "cmn" than for "yue", right? If we say we are recommending that users of "zh-yue" switch to "yue", but that users of "zh-cmn" leave things as they are or switch to "zh", we are effectively saying that "zh" is equivalent to "cmn". > During the teleconf call this week, those of us that participated came > to consensus on recommending these directions for 4646bis (at least, > this is the understanding I came away with): Thank you very much for this summary; it will help me put together a new draft. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 16:53:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaGm-0000Ov-Lk; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:53:04 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaGl-0000Hz-Kl for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:53:03 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaGl-0000Gb-9r for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:53:03 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaGl-0007Ef-0q for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:53:03 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071201215301.BRM6607.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:53:01 -0500 Message-ID: <009101c83464$8b259890$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <007801c83460$5e6d3820$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071201214437.GA18104@sources.org> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:53:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: FX is deprecated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > FX is completely unknown in France so nobody will regret it. It could > be argued that "metropolitan France" means something for the language > and that fr-FX could be sensible but I'm certain noone will never > think of it when tagging. But it's inconsistent. That's what I'm looking at. >> This means a deprecated subtag like FX cannot be un-deprecated. > > So, even if ISO 3166 resurrects it, we won't? That's what 4646 and 4646bis say. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 17:21:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaiM-0004N2-RI; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:21:34 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaiM-0004Mm-8V for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:21:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaiL-0004Ld-Uh for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:21:33 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyaiF-00075w-CY for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:21:33 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyai6-00015N-5S for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:21:18 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:21:18 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:21:18 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:23:12 +0100 Organization: Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <006d01c83442$02855ec0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Language tags in the future version of HTTP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: >> For 2616bis they could use a simplified syntax in the direction >> of tag =3D primary *( "-" auxiliary ) directly expanded >> in tag =3D 1*8( ALPHA / DIGIT ) *( "-" 1*8( ALPHA / DIGIT )) with >> a note in prose that tags are actually supposed to be BCP 47 tags. =20 > We tried that with the "grandfathered" production in 4646, and > we got complaints from people unhappy with the loose syntax that=20 > appeared, taken out of context, to allow "en-a-b-c-d-e". 2616bis (http) mainly needs to *_transport_* tags, interpreting them is IMO not the same layer. We likely agree that 2616bis "MUST NOT"=20 copy 4646 syntax, especially not while 4646bis rewrites major parts of it. They could try tag =3D adding some valid examples based on the current registry. It's already clear that they get rid of any 1*8( ALPHA ), and i-cherokee or en-cockney in the latest 2616bis draft were also bad ideas. > Now we have a separate "irregular" production that enumerates all > the grandfathered tags that don't fit the rest of the syntax. That list could be trimmed by regulating i-whatever instead of the zero registered languages matching 5*8( ALPHA ) for i-uniling or i-liaden. If a registered language ever needs scripts, or other subtags, then it most likely already qualifies for a proper 639-3 code. My crystal ball says, hard to judge based on no real case. > are we going to remove the extlang production from the syntax > and add a lot more items to the "irregular" list I'd hope that we do this. We could mitigate it by building some sublists, e.g. sgn-irregular / zh-irregular / other-irregular > If their home-grown syntax doesn't agree with BCP 47, it's not > clear which one people will believe. Well, the generic URI syntax in STD 66 doesn't explain details for various specific URI schemes, including schemes specified=20 in STD 66. Nothing's wrong with that, just a different level of abstraction. If you want to know how many servers handle the name=3Dvalue details of queries you're forced to test it with real servers, it's not specified in STD 66. If you want to know how mailto URIs work (if at all) you have to look in Martin's draft, and after that you've to judge how far away the I-D still is=20 from anything related to real mailto-URIs. But real mailto-URIs not matching the generic STD 66 syntax are broken, if they work or not, so it's not quite hopeless... :-) > Remember how many people thought RFC 1766 and 3066 promised=20 > only "xx" and "xx-XX". Yes, but it wasn't too hard to learn that this wasn't the case, with beautiful examples such as i-default or en-GB-oed. If an implementor doesn't bother to read the spec. trying to improve the spec. might be a waste of time (unless it's an improvement towards readability and KISS) Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 17:35:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyauu-0004Cb-F9; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:34:32 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyaus-00049E-Og for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:34:30 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyaus-000492-F3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:34:30 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyaui-0000qL-1u for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:34:30 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyauZ-0003e6-Nz for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:34:11 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:34:11 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:34:11 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:36:03 +0100 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <20071129143920.GC32134@mercury.ccil.org> <007601c832d3$73a6d220$5af47660$@net><20071129223947.GI20488@mercury.ccil.org> <474F42F3.7010404@yahoo-inc.com> <4751A86B.9070802@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: =20 > New Macrolanguage assignments, assuming no extlangs (i.e. > a fully thrown, unretrieved towel), would have no impact > on 4646bis. Is the Macrolanguage: header field proposal also dead, as far as the Teleconference design team is concerned ? Apparently I didn't get the purpose of Peter's list, if it's unrelated to the deprecation of grandfathered zh-* and similar constructs, was it about this header field ? Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 17:45:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyb5A-0006cB-RC; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:45:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyb59-0006bn-Dt for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:45:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyb59-0006UC-48 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:45:07 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyb4t-0002Tn-28 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:45:03 -0500 Received: from [10.72.73.65] (snvvpn1-10-72-73-c65.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.73.65]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB1MiHjo017027; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:44:18 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mPN251B0m6hVt0TJxaWKYD7BPxu+xYZUAlWBZDfpoYLs4aeJMGVXLxqTzzcZl3sP Message-ID: <4751E3BF.6030107@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:44:15 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs References: <20071129143920.GC32134@mercury.ccil.org> <007601c832d3$73a6d220$5af47660$@net><20071129223947.GI20488@mercury.ccil.org> <474F42F3.7010404@yahoo-inc.com> <4751A86B.9070802@yahoo-inc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > >> New Macrolanguage assignments, assuming no extlangs (i.e. >> a fully thrown, unretrieved towel), would have no impact >> on 4646bis. > > Is the Macrolanguage: header field proposal also dead, > as far as the Teleconference design team is concerned ? Uh... no. And, yes, of course there would be some impact on 4646bis from having such a field. (header??? where'd that come from?) Just not the impact you suggested in your previous note, as the impact will be limited to a few sentences describing the (informative) field. Procedurally there will be no impact on subtag assignment, deprecation, etc. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 17:45:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyb5P-00071i-2W; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:45:23 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyb5N-0006yj-V4 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:45:21 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyb5N-0006pr-Kb for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:45:21 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyb59-0002ZH-5s for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:45:19 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iyb4n-0005Vp-CE for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:44:45 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:44:45 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:44:45 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:46:46 +0100 Organization: Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <007801c83460$5e6d3820$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: FX is deprecated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Is everyone comfortable with this? Sure, but it won't surprise you that I'm not going to download and check drafts with "fantasy island" codes. FX means one of eight down. UK still missing as the "minimal" subset that must be allowed if anything is, it's the only plausible code (I could do without it). Later in this thread (Stephane and Doug): >> So, even if ISO 3166 resurrects it, we won't? > That's what 4646 and 4646bis say. Then they're broken by design and need to be fixed. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 17:53:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IybDX-0003sL-Qx; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:53:47 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IybDW-0003sB-Nm for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:53:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IybDW-0003qH-Dk for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:53:46 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IybDV-0003zH-Vw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:53:46 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IybDI-00071G-Iv for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:53:32 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:53:32 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:53:32 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:55:25 +0100 Organization: Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <006f01c83442$802a7090$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: RFC 1591 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Don't forget their use of "UK" as a ccTLD instead of the=20 > ISO 3166 standard "GB", and their use of other exceptionally > reserved code elements such as "AC". RFC 1591 was published 1994, I'm almost sure that these codes are older, and that the author of RFC 1591 published it as a=20 kind of "lessons learned" (among other reasons). Jon Postel was "IANA" for many years, see RFC 2468. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 18:06:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IybPx-00042A-Aw; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:06:37 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IybPw-0003ve-8B for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:06:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IybPv-0003nb-K3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:06:35 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IybPv-00062V-AF for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:06:35 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IybPg-0000jX-A7 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:06:20 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:06:20 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:06:20 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 00:08:20 +0100 Organization: Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <20071129143920.GC32134@mercury.ccil.org> <007601c832d3$73a6d220$5af47660$@net><20071129223947.GI20488@mercury.ccil.org> <474F42F3.7010404@yahoo-inc.com> <4751A86B.9070802@yahoo-inc.com> <4751E3BF.6030107@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: =20 >> Is the Macrolanguage: header field proposal also dead, >> as far as the Teleconference design team is concerned ? =20 > Uh... no. And, yes, of course there would be some impact > on 4646bis from having such a field. (header??? where'd > that come from?) Too many flamewars of replacing "header" by "header field" in drafts related to message header fields, sorry. It's a "field" here, with a syntax like "header fields" elsewhere. Needless to say that I liked the old (albeit sloppy) header terminology where it was unambiguous, but I lost those wars. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 18:28:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyblG-0000ln-Jm; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:28:38 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyblE-0000Vl-Bk for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:28:36 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyblD-0000Tg-Vx for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:28:36 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyblD-0005s1-Mc for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:28:35 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:27:59 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:28:34 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:28:33 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] FX is deprecated Thread-Topic: [Ltru] FX is deprecated Thread-Index: Acg0YGJHu9tmxEUXQfGjj718w3DiJQAEXQVg Message-ID: References: <007801c83460$5e6d3820$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <007801c83460$5e6d3820$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1969982214==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1969982214== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBGcm9tOiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsIFttYWlsdG86ZGV3ZWxsQHJvYWRydW5uZXIuY29tXQ0KDQoNCj4g QmVjYXVzZSBvZiB0aGlzLCBGWCB3aWxsIGJlIHVuY2hhbmdlZCBieSB0aGUgbmV3IHByb3Zpc2lv biBpbiA0NjQ2YmlzDQo+IGFuZCB3aWxsIHJlbWFpbiBkZXByZWNhdGVkLCB3aGlsZSB0aGUgb3Ro ZXIgc2V2ZW4gRVIgY29kZSBlbGVtZW50cyB3aWxsDQo+IGJlY29tZSBuZXcsIG5vbi1kZXByZWNh dGVkIHN1YnRhZ3MuICBJcyBldmVyeW9uZSBjb21mb3J0YWJsZSB3aXRoIHRoaXM/DQoNClNvdW5k cyBPSyB0byBtZS4NCg0KDQpQZXRlcg0K --===============1969982214== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1969982214==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 01 18:29:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IybmY-0003iK-E1; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:29:58 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IybmX-0003iE-V7 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:29:57 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IybmX-0003i6-Le for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:29:57 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IybmW-0000Gd-2J for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:29:57 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IybmB-00072S-UB for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:29:35 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:29:35 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:29:35 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 00:31:25 +0100 Organization: Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-112.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Italy and Eastern Armenian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Nicolas Krebs wrote: >> Is your objection about the plausibility of Latin arevela >> in Italy,=20 > Yes.=20 >> is arevmda a better language-script-region-variant example ? > I don't know. I am asking. Good question, asking Google I eventually found these pages: http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=3DItaly Now I'm still not sure if they actually use Latin for arevmda. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 02 14:14:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyuGZ-0003UD-Cv; Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:14:11 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyuGX-0003Tg-J1 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:14:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyuGW-0003TR-Sk for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:14:09 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyuGV-0000w3-H1 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:14:08 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IyuGS-0006vQ-2V; Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:14:04 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 14:14:04 -0500 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20071202191403.GA8528@mercury.ccil.org> References: <006901c8343d$ea1f2c20$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <006901c8343d$ea1f2c20$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > Then if they currently use "zh-cmn" for some Mandarin purpose, wouldn't > they be equally encouraged to switch to "cmn"? Yes. However, people using "zh" to tag Mandarin shouldn't be encouraged to switch to "cmn". > "zh" has historically been used to tag much more Mandarin than Cantonese Partly because there *is* much more Mandarin (text) than Cantonese. > but "zh" does not specifically mean Mandarin. I was sure you and I > agreed on that. Yes, we do. -- Here lies the Christian, John Cowan judge, and poet Peter, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Who broke the laws of God cowan@ccil.org and man and metre. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 02 14:15:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyuHy-0004h5-QX; Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:15:38 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IyuHx-0004cq-NW for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:15:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyuHx-0004bz-B2 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:15:37 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyuHx-00019R-4t for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:15:37 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IyuHx-00077R-0r; Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:15:37 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 14:15:36 -0500 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] RFC 1591 (was: Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09.txt) Message-ID: <20071202191536.GB8528@mercury.ccil.org> References: <006f01c83442$802a7090$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <006f01c83442$802a7090$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > Don't forget their use of "UK" as a ccTLD instead of the ISO 3166 > standard "GB", and their use of other exceptionally reserved code > elements such as "AC". The existence of the ".uk" domain (or more precisely the "uk." domain, since JANET domain names were big-endian) predates the application of 3166 to gTLDs. -- Even the best of friends cannot John Cowan attend each others' funeral. cowan@ccil.org --Kehlog Albran, The Profit http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 00:58:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz4Jw-0005Og-NC; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 00:58:20 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz4Jv-0005OU-Kv for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 00:58:19 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz4Ju-0005O5-R3 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 00:58:18 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz4Ju-0005VS-Et for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 00:58:18 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071203055817.ZGLB3502.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Mon, 3 Dec 2007 00:58:17 -0500 Message-ID: <00eb01c83571$804f33f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <006901c8343d$ea1f2c20$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071202191403.GA8528@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 21:58:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: >> Then if they currently use "zh-cmn" for some Mandarin purpose, >> wouldn't they be equally encouraged to switch to "cmn"? > > Yes. However, people using "zh" to tag Mandarin shouldn't be > encouraged to switch to "cmn". To me, and perhaps only to me, saying that people tagging Cantonese as "zh[-yue]" should be encouraged to switch to "yue", but people tagging Mandarin as "zh[-cmn]" should not be encouraged to switch to "cmn", is tantamount to saying that "zh" is a synonym for "cmn". If it is not, I'd like to know how it is not. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 03:29:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz6gK-0007lV-3K; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 03:29:36 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz6gJ-0007kT-Gq for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 03:29:35 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz6gD-0007bs-As for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 03:29:29 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz6gB-00061V-Sg for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 03:29:29 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D1141C00EB; Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:29:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384DD1C009F; Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:29:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC4C58ECBE; Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:29:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:29:27 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20071203082927.GA6131@nic.fr> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Remove extlang from ABNF? (Was: summary of recommendations coming out of this week's teleconf X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sat, Dec 01, 2007 at 10:58:57AM -0800, Peter Constable wrote a message of 262 lines which said: > Do not pursue use of the extlang subtag; I understand > remove extlang from the ABNF. Warning, it means that tags which were well-formed in RFC 4646 (but not valid since no extlang was registered) won't be well-formed anymore. Isn't a violation of the stability principle? (Yes, the "extlang" production in RFC 4646 was marked as "reserved for future use" but it was legal nevertheless.) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 05:37:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz8g8-0001vP-KE; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 05:37:32 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz8g8-0001vJ-Br for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 05:37:32 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz8g8-0001vB-16 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 05:37:32 -0500 Received: from 132.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.132] helo=mx1.nexbyte.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iz8g7-00062O-Jn for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 05:37:31 -0500 Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.3) with ESMTP id md50007521380.msg for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:42:22 +0000 Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:37:26 +0000 From: "Debbie Garside" To: , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <006f01c83442$802a7090$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Subject: RE: [Ltru] RFC 1591 (was: Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09.txt) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:37:20 -0000 Message-ID: <029b01c83598$7c1dd490$0d00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: <006f01c83442$802a7090$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: Acg0Qy887GkqCyniREqpbxnV0xZTUwBVJESw X-MDHeloLookup-Result: pass smtp.helo=145.nexbyte.net (ip=62.197.41.145) (mx1.nexbyte.net) X-MDMailLookup-Result: pass smtp.mail=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk (ip=62.197.41.145) (mx1.nexbyte.net) X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:42:22 +0000 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1857ca1047=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:42:24 +0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug wrote: > Don't forget their use of "UK" as a ccTLD instead of the ISO > 3166 standard "GB", and their use of other exceptionally > reserved code elements such as "AC". UK - exceptionally reserved - was used for the ccTLD because that code more clearly marks the country (UK, not GB). We are also assigned GB and that is still in use by a legacy application in MoD. There is no intention to give this code up, but neither is there any intention to use it further. Best Debbie > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@roadrunner.com] > Sent: 01 December 2007 17:49 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] RFC 1591 (was: Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09.txt) > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > > Thanks, with Debbie's help we managed to avoid the ugliest > traps and > > pitfalls for RFC 4646. For the DG+EA+IC+... zoo I hope > that it won't > > pass an IAB review. The IETF isn't supposed to overrule RFC 1591 > > without first publishing a 1591bis (IMO, of couse, and > obviously IANA > > already managed this stunt with its odd ccTLD EU). > > Don't forget their use of "UK" as a ccTLD instead of the ISO > 3166 standard "GB", and their use of other exceptionally > reserved code elements such as "AC". > > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * > UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ^ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 13:36:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzG9l-0002hU-TO; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:36:37 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzG9j-0002h1-PS for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:36:35 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzG9j-0002gU-FO for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:36:35 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzG9j-0002Hk-0Q for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:36:35 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB3IaPg4023036 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:36:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject: content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KhindWK/ghV0p5iMHmjmQDFk7O9d6OVaBIfVKTQid38RtWFvrKrhViFJFLGpxKYh Message-ID: <47544CA9.5000805@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:36:25 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Subject: [Ltru] proto-draft-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have posted a version of draft-10 to inter-locale this morning. It includes my proposed edits to remove extlang from standardization. You will note that I have not removed extlang from the ABNF: I have reverted it to "reserved for future use". I have also more-or-less reverted the section on extlang in the body of the document. I have not yet gone through and examined for additional changes (to irregular, for example). See: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10.xml Diff is at: http://tinyurl.com/2hle7o Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 17:00:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzJKW-0006OZ-Ie; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:59:56 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzJKV-0006Ml-FF for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:59:55 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzJKV-0006Mc-5j for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:59:55 -0500 Received: from maila.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzJKT-0006yC-OV for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:59:55 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:59:16 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.72]) with mapi; Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:59:45 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:59:40 -0800 Thread-Topic: Remove extlang from ABNF? (Was: summary of recommendations coming out of this week's teleconf Thread-Index: Acg1hqFtX8oRANU5SgKaTaTvhODatQAcLywA Message-ID: References: <20071203082927.GA6131@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20071203082927.GA6131@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Subject: [Ltru] RE: Remove extlang from ABNF? (Was: summary of recommendations coming out of this week's teleconf X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] > > remove extlang from the ABNF. > > Warning, it means that tags which were well-formed in RFC 4646 (but > not valid since no extlang was registered) won't be well-formed > anymore. Isn't a violation of the stability principle? (Yes, the > "extlang" production in RFC 4646 was marked as "reserved for future > use" but it was legal nevertheless.) Correct. Since there have never been registered extlang subtags, there migh= t be parsers that allow for it but there should not be any tags that includ= e them. If some such tags are out there in the wild, they would be well-for= med but not valid in 4646, and neither well-formed nor valid in 4646bis (un= der this proposal). Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 17:07:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzJRb-0002fD-7T; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:07:15 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzJRZ-0002eD-RW for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:07:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzJRZ-0002dx-Hp for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:07:13 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzJRX-0007Ci-S0 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:07:13 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzJAF-0000Cp-6b for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:49:19 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:49:19 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:49:19 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 22:03:09 +0100 Organization: Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <47544CA9.5000805@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: proto-draft-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: =20 > You will note that I have not removed extlang from the ABNF I also note that it still contains the fantasy island codes, Chairs, please produce the consensus for this modification in -09. It still contains "Latin transliterations of descriptions", without saying what Latin is, or why the subtag review list should create "transliterations" when the source standard didn't bother for whatever reasons. It still contains the unused 5*8ALPHA "registered languages" instead of reviving the good tradition of i-whatever tags for this in the times of 639-3 likely unnecessary loophole. As a consequence of not removing the extlang syntax it still contains the answer 42 instead of a much more MIME friendly limit 30 (or 31 for a 639-6 language). Allegedly it's unclear that a subtag can be "undrepecated" if say (in theory) ISO 3166-1 revives FX. Or rather Doug said that it's clearly not allowed, IMO that would be a bug. It still allows "generic" variants without prefix, they're known to be cumbersome (fonipa + fonupa). =20 There's a typo s/SHOULD NOT/should not/ in the 1901 + 1996 example, don't use 2119 keywords in examples. Far too much "MUSTard" in RFC 4646 and the draft, compare RFC 2119: | Imperatives of the type defined in this memo must be used | with care and sparingly. In particular, they MUST only | be used where it is actually required for interoperation | or to limit behavior which has potential for causing harm Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 17:59:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzKGV-0003OF-Mt; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:59:51 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzKGT-0003LF-Px for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:59:49 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzKGT-0003L5-G6 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:59:49 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzKGR-0003bC-Dx for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:59:49 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IzKGR-0008Ny-1s; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:59:47 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 17:59:47 -0500 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: proto-draft-10 Message-ID: <20071203225946.GC15972@mercury.ccil.org> References: <47544CA9.5000805@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > It still contains the unused 5*8ALPHA "registered languages" > instead of reviving the good tradition of i-whatever tags > for this in the times of 639-3 likely unnecessary loophole. I agree on the "likely unnecessary", but not on the "good tradition". That particular tradition is a bad one; we're better off with one-part language subtags, even in the escape hatch. > There's a typo s/SHOULD NOT/should not/ in the 1901 + 1996 > example, don't use 2119 keywords in examples. Far too much > "MUSTard" in RFC 4646 and the draft, compare RFC 2119: > > | Imperatives of the type defined in this memo must be used > | with care and sparingly. In particular, they MUST only > | be used where it is actually required for interoperation > | or to limit behavior which has potential for causing harm That's for protocols. We are trying to constrain the behavior of human beings, a far more difficult set of objects. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Be yourself. Especially do not feign a working knowledge of RDF where no such knowledge exists. Neither be cynical about RELAX NG; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment in the world of markup, James Clark is as perennial as the grass. --DeXiderata, Sean McGrath _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 18:45:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzKyd-0002J5-2m; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:45:27 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzKyc-0002CA-7J for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:45:26 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzKyb-00028y-QS for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:45:25 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzKyZ-0008Tm-W8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:45:25 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzKyS-0005yE-Er for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:45:16 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:45:16 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:45:16 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 00:47:12 +0100 Organization: Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <47544CA9.5000805@yahoo-inc.com> <20071203225946.GC15972@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Re: proto-draft-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: =20 >> It still contains the unused 5*8ALPHA "registered languages" >> instead of reviving the good tradition of i-whatever tags >> for this in the times of 639-3 likely unnecessary loophole. =20 > I agree on the "likely unnecessary", but not on the "good > tradition". That particular tradition is a bad one; we're > better off with one-part language subtags, even in the > escape hatch. Okay, then we might agree to disagree. The main difference=20 between "liaden" and "i-liaden" is that the former allows "liaden-Hant-fonupa" while the latter has to be used as is. There are no registered languages, so what's the point of allowing the full set of BCP 47 features for them ? For cases like i-default I don't miss any default-Hant-fonupa opportunity. As explained earlier 5*8( ALPHA ) limits implementation freedom if there would be ever a variant and a language using the same subtag. =20 >>| Imperatives of the type defined in this memo must be used >>| with care and sparingly. In particular, they MUST only >>| be used where it is actually required for interoperation >>| or to limit behavior which has potential for causing harm =20 > That's for protocols. We are trying to constrain the behavior > of human beings, a far more difficult set of objects. If we don't like chapter 6 of RFC 2119 we should say so instead of "to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119]". There's a similar issue in the Last Called 2821bis, and I proposed a way to quote RFC 2119 excluding chapter 6:=20 Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 19:35:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzLlB-0008JO-QP; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:35:37 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzLlA-0008Hz-Mf for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:35:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzLlA-0008Hl-Cc for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:35:36 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzLl8-0005Mg-0A for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:35:36 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IzLl7-0000Xb-Nt; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:35:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:35:33 -0500 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Re: proto-draft-10 Message-ID: <20071204003533.GE15972@mercury.ccil.org> References: <47544CA9.5000805@yahoo-inc.com> <20071203225946.GC15972@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > Okay, then we might agree to disagree. The main difference between > "liaden" and "i-liaden" is that the former allows "liaden-Hant-fonupa" > while the latter has to be used as is. Quite so. > There are no registered languages, so what's the point of allowing > the full set of BCP 47 features for them ? Because if and when we need them, there's no reason they shouldn't interoperate with the rest of the system. > For cases like i-default I don't miss any default-Hant-fonupa > opportunity. i-default is very special. > As explained earlier 5*8( ALPHA ) limits implementation freedom if > there would be ever a variant and a language using the same subtag. Rules for the first subtag don't apply to later subtags, period. The fact that you'd like them all to be unique doesn't make it so. -- Take two turkeys, one goose, four John Cowan cabbages, but no duck, and mix them http://www.ccil.org/~cowan together. After one taste, you'll duck cowan@ccil.org soup the rest of your life. --Groucho _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 20:14:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzMN7-0005Gn-Ly; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:14:49 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzMN6-0005E9-HU for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:14:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzMN6-0005CH-7D for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:14:48 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzMN3-00018Q-VG for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:14:48 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB419YT5050321; Mon, 3 Dec 2007 17:09:34 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=w3aALfAachDvFPr8KVcUUWjOD8rlkXrtbgIP3e7+FHCE7CTKmp8x6Gwu7ym9Lvff Message-ID: <4754A8CD.4010501@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:09:33 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Re: proto-draft-10 References: <47544CA9.5000805@yahoo-inc.com> <20071203225946.GC15972@mercury.ccil.org> <20071204003533.GE15972@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071204003533.GE15972@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > >> As explained earlier 5*8( ALPHA ) limits implementation freedom if >> there would be ever a variant and a language using the same subtag. > > Rules for the first subtag don't apply to later subtags, period. > The fact that you'd like them all to be unique doesn't make it so. > Moreover, it has never been the case that subtags were unique. Witness: "de-de". Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 20:35:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzMgp-000805-3v; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:35:11 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzMgo-0007zy-R0 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:35:10 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzMgo-0007zo-GG for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:35:10 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzMgo-0005RL-0M for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:35:10 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9204C2BC10; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 10:35:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RrMae4jJpixw; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 10:35:06 +0900 (JST) Received: by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 33) id 798592BC0F; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 10:35:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from 218.110.62.118 (SquirrelMail authenticated user fsasaki) by webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 10:35:06 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <2721.218.110.62.118.1196732106.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <20071203082927.GA6131@nic.fr> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 10:35:06 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: [Ltru] RE: Remove extlang from ABNF? (Was: summary of recommendations coming out of this week's teleconf From: "Felix Sasaki" To: "Peter Constable" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.9a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-2022-jp X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: fsasaki@w3.org List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org >> From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] > > >> > remove extlang from the ABNF. >> >> Warning, it means that tags which were well-formed in RFC 4646 (but >> not valid since no extlang was registered) won't be well-formed >> anymore. Isn't a violation of the stability principle? (Yes, the >> "extlang" production in RFC 4646 was marked as "reserved for future >> use" but it was legal nevertheless.) > > Correct. Since there have never been registered extlang subtags, there > might be parsers that allow for it but there should not be any tags tha= t > include them. If some such tags are out there in the wild, they would b= e > well-formed but not valid in 4646, and neither well-formed nor valid in > 4646bis (under this proposal). Note that this change has consequences not only for implementations, but also for specifications citing BCP 47 / RFC 4646. To give an example, see e.g. http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3D3079#c2 this is a comment on a W3C draft of "XML Schema 1.1 , part 2 - datatypes"= , about the "language" data type. We were saying "We would like to propose that you use the ABNF defined in RFC 4646. This ABNF is stable." So if extlang is not legal anymore, we will need to change that comment. Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 21:13:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzNHP-0005QZ-QJ; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:12:59 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzNHO-0005QM-Nq for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:12:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzNHO-0005QD-E8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:12:58 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzNHM-0006n5-R1 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:12:58 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzNHL-0004Co-Be for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:12:55 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:12:55 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:12:55 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 03:14:58 +0100 Organization: Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <47544CA9.5000805@yahoo-inc.com> <20071203225946.GC15972@mercury.ccil.org> <20071204003533.GE15972@mercury.ccil.org> <4754A8CD.4010501@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: proto-draft-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: =20 >> Rules for the first subtag don't apply to later subtags, period. >> The fact that you'd like them all to be unique doesn't make it so. =20 > Moreover, it has never been the case that subtags were unique.=20 > Witness: "de-de". With a case sensitive decomposition into regularized subtags it's de-DE and "de" !=3D "DE". The 5*8( ALPHA ) case is the only case where "regularized" subtags starting with ALPHA can't be used=20 directly as xml:id (if there happens to be an identical variant subtag). Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 21:39:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzNhU-00049w-1P; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:39:56 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzNhT-00049p-IH for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:39:55 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzNhT-00049f-8e for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:39:55 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzNhS-0000y7-NJ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:39:55 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzNhM-00086F-5L for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:39:48 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:39:48 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:39:48 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 03:41:44 +0100 Organization: Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <47544CA9.5000805@yahoo-inc.com> <20071203225946.GC15972@mercury.ccil.org> <20071204003533.GE15972@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: proto-draft-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: =20 >> There are no registered languages, so what's the point >> of allowing the full set of BCP 47 features for them ? =20 > Because if and when we need them, there's no reason they > shouldn't interoperate with the rest of the system. It was a mistake that 4646 ended up as BCP instead of PS. For a standards track document features that aren't used or otherwise not interoperable are withdrawn. What kind of "if and when we need them" is this, where the proposed language wasn't good enough for ISO 639-3 ? =20 For Sealandish as used on Sealand i-sealand should suffice. Sealand is one of the few serious micronation articles on en.wikipedia.org, others are best described as "crackpot". >> For cases like i-default I don't miss any=20 >> default-Hant-fonupa opportunity. =20 > i-default is very special. I also don't miss klingon-Blis-AQ, I picked an i-whatever=20 where I was sure that it's not deprecated. The "klingon" case also shows that anything surviving giggle tests gets an ISO 639 code sooner or later, and after that we could use tlh-Blis-AQ as we see fit. =20 And we can also use x-klingon-Blis-AQ when i-klingon isn't good enough for whatever we're up to. =20 Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 22:05:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzO6Y-0007Uj-TC; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:05:50 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzO6X-0007U4-W1 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:05:49 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzO6X-0007Tj-Lu for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:05:49 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzO6X-0003Jy-Bl for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:05:49 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IzO6W-0006HR-SX; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:05:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 22:05:48 -0500 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: proto-draft-10 Message-ID: <20071204030548.GQ8528@mercury.ccil.org> References: <47544CA9.5000805@yahoo-inc.com> <20071204003533.GE15972@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > What kind of "if and when we need them" is this, where the > proposed language wasn't good enough for ISO 639-3 ? c ISO 639 RA/JAC won't always necessarily be run by the sensible people who control it now. > For Sealandish as used on Sealand i-sealand should suffice. > Sealand is one of the few serious micronation articles on > en.wikipedia.org, others are best described as "crackpot". They speak, or spoke, English there, and maybe a bit of Dutch. Countries aren't the issue: languages are. > I also don't miss klingon-Blis-AQ, I picked an i-whatever > where I was sure that it's not deprecated. The "klingon" > case also shows that anything surviving giggle tests gets > an ISO 639 code sooner or later, and after that we could > use tlh-Blis-AQ as we see fit. Indeed. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan This great college [Trinity], of this ancient university [Cambridge], has seen some strange sights. It has seen Wordsworth drunk and Porson sober. And here am I, a better poet than Porson, and a better scholar than Wordsworth, somewhere betwixt and between. --A.E. Housman _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 22:20:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzOKI-00038g-UE; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:20:02 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzOKH-000388-Gc for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:20:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzOKH-00037v-6t for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:20:01 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzOKF-0004X4-Ic for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:20:01 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzOK8-000653-7L for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 03:19:52 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 03:19:52 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 03:19:52 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 04:21:47 +0100 Organization: Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <47544CA9.5000805@yahoo-inc.com><20071204003533.GE15972@mercury.ccil.org> <20071204030548.GQ8528@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-31.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: proto-draft-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: [i-sealand]=20 > They speak, or spoke, English there, and maybe a bit of=20 > Dutch. Countries aren't the issue: languages are. And a bit of de-x-nazi at a critical period of the post-war Sealand history. At later periods they might have spoken anything resulting in an increased pagerank for their Web pages and related activities (selling passports, etc.) There's no substantial difference between micronation and registered language, sooner or later somebody will try it for (putting it mildly) non-linguistic purposes. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 23:20:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzPGZ-0001LZ-2s; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:20:15 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzPGY-0001HH-N1 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:20:14 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzPGY-0001ES-Aw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:20:14 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzPGW-0000kE-7S for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:20:14 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IzPGV-00048l-Se; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:20:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 23:20:11 -0500 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: proto-draft-10 Message-ID: <20071204042011.GR8528@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071203225946.GC15972@mercury.ccil.org> <4754A8CD.4010501@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > With a case sensitive decomposition into regularized subtags it's > de-DE and "de" != "DE". The 5*8( ALPHA ) case is the only case > where "regularized" subtags starting with ALPHA can't be used > directly as xml:id (if there happens to be an identical variant > subtag). Subtags aren't case-sensitive, either, no matter how much you'd like them to be. -- There is no real going back. Though I John Cowan may come to the Shire, it will not seem cowan@ccil.org the same; for I shall not be the same. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest? --Frodo _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 00:03:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzPwL-0000qr-Au; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:03:25 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzPwJ-0000qf-Mk for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:03:23 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzPwJ-0000qX-DE for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:03:23 -0500 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzPwI-0003To-Uc for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:03:23 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071204050322.TBXR24109.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 00:03:22 -0500 Message-ID: <001e01c83632$fe3f11b0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 21:03:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Subject: [Ltru] Re: proto-draft-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > I have posted a version of draft-10 to inter-locale this morning. It > includes my proposed edits to remove extlang from standardization. I will try to post a draft-4645bis-03 in the next few days that matches this proto-draft: no extlangs, Macrolanguage field that adheres strictly to 639-3, exceptionally reserved 3166 codes. Since we're still debating the last two topics, it looks like these won't be the WGLC drafts either (sigh, coming up on a year behind), but they're a step closer. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 00:57:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzQmI-0007Fm-In; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:57:06 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzQmG-00076k-Q3 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:57:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzQmG-00075h-FT for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:57:04 -0500 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzQmF-0006V4-OE for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:57:04 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071204055703.VNFK24109.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 00:57:03 -0500 Message-ID: <002201c8363a$7e17ef40$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 21:57:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 944ecb6e61f753561f559a497458fb4f Subject: [Ltru] Frank's comments (was: Re: proto-draft-10) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > I also note that it still contains the fantasy island codes, > Chairs, please produce the consensus for this modification > in -09. I'd really like the chairs to declare consensus on a number of topics, because otherwise this happens: old decisions and non-decisions are revisited over and over again. Chairs: *do* we have consensus for adding the exceptionally reserved 3166 codes? I'm not even asking any more for my position to be heard; I just want to know what the decision is. > It still contains "Latin transliterations of descriptions", > without saying what Latin is, Do we need to provide a definition of the Latin script? > or why the subtag review list > should create "transliterations" when the source standard > didn't bother for whatever reasons. The source (ISO) standards will always provide Latin-script descriptions. It's the independently registered subtags that need to have this specified. We simply need to make sure we don't register "Description: Тарашкевіца" without providing a suitable Latin-script equivalent. Personally I'm satisfied with the existing wording, because it does not go any farther than 4646 in recommending ASCII-only transcriptions. That was a popular thing to request a year or so ago. Hopefully the advent of the UTF-8 Registry will put that to an end. > It still contains the unused 5*8ALPHA "registered languages" > instead of reviving the good tradition of i-whatever tags > for this in the times of 639-3 likely unnecessary loophole. I don't believe there is any popular sympathy, let alone consensus, to change this. I wonder why you would call out Addison for not changing it. > As a consequence of not removing the extlang syntax it still > contains the answer 42 instead of a much more MIME friendly > limit 30 (or 31 for a 639-6 language). You guys can beat the maximum-theoretical-tag-length issue into the ground if you wish. I'll just be happy if implementers would stop getting confused in the presence of a script subtag. > Allegedly it's unclear that a subtag can be "undrepecated" > if say (in theory) ISO 3166-1 revives FX. Or rather Doug > said that it's clearly not allowed, IMO that would be a bug. I think it's extremely clear in 4646. Whether that's a bug is another question, one I think deserves serious discussion. But we should be careful about breaking our own stability promises, and refusing to un-deprecate a subtag was a stability promise. > It still allows "generic" variants without prefix, they're > known to be cumbersome (fonipa + fonupa). I don't see how they're "cumbersome." They serve the purpose they were meant to serve: too many languages can be, and are, written in IPA to make it worthwhile to enumerate them all. In any case, like removing the registered languages, I haven't seen no popular support for changing this. (Another case where a declaration of consensus would be useful.) Later: > There are no registered languages, so what's the point of > allowing the full set of BCP 47 features for them ? For > cases like i-default I don't miss any default-Hant-fonupa > opportunity. You're probably more likely to see a 5- to 8-letter registered language subtag before you see an extension. The barriers to creating an extension are just too high. > As explained earlier 5*8( ALPHA ) limits implementation > freedom if there would be ever a variant and a language > using the same subtag. John Cowan replied to this: > Rules for the first subtag don't apply to later subtags, period. > The fact that you'd like them all to be unique doesn't make it so. Exactly; they belong to different namespaces. Or, to provide a wholly unnecessary analogy: I work in an open office environment (no petitions, please; I'm talking physical offices), and as it turns out, I'm the only Doug in my building. This makes certain petty operations a bit simpler: my co-workers can talk unambiguously about "Doug" without using, or even knowing, my surname, and when someone calls out "Doug" I can look up right away, confident in the knowledge that they mean me. But this is no justification for my company to refuse to hire other, well-qualified Dougs. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 03:13:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzSuP-0000nK-3p; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 03:13:37 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzSuO-0000lF-Jk for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 03:13:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzSuO-0000kU-9p for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 03:13:36 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzSuL-0005Q0-VC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 03:13:36 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzSo0-0003FY-2l for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:07:00 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:07:00 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:07:00 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 08:54:18 +0100 Lines: 112 Message-ID: References: <002201c8363a$7e17ef40$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5ebbf074524e58e662bc8209a6235027 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Frank's comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > I'd really like the chairs to declare consensus on a number of topics, = > because otherwise this happens: old decisions and non-decisions are=20 > revisited over and over again. Yes. =20 Of course it also helps to look into the draft from time to time, I now = saw that there are no biannual expert reappointments, good riddance. I had already visions of bothering NomCom with this business, or copying the recall procedure into 4646bis.=20 >> It still contains "Latin transliterations of descriptions", without = saying=20 >> what Latin is, =20 > Do we need to provide a definition of the Latin script? My definition is simple: MES-1, optionally plus a few glyphs used on a "popular" platform. What's your definition, Latin-1 ? >> why the subtag review list should create "transliterations" when the >> source standard didn't bother for whatever reasons. =20 > The source (ISO) standards will always provide Latin-script=20 > descriptions Okay. So what does the new MUSTard in the draft ? Is it about the variants or "registered languages", and why would anybody want say=20 some fonipa transliteration in addition to the description(s) offered by the requester ? What's special with "Latn" in a broad Unicode sense, why no Kore, Jpan, or Brai ? For RFC 4646 we made sure that we=20 have _no_ prejudice for Latn, and permit (in theory) all code points. > We simply need to make sure we don't register=20 > "Description: = =D0=A2=D0=B0=D1=80=D0=B0=D1=88=D0=BA=D0=B5=D0=B2=D1=96=D1=86=D0=B0" You hit an example that I can read, therefore I recall that the review list managed this registration without a new MUST. > Hopefully the advent of the UTF-8 Registry will put that to an end. Apart from causing havoc for some users UTF-8 is still Unicode, and we had that already in RFC 4646. BTW, some weeks ago you said that XML is not all. With the advent of "ooXML" (valid or otherwise) I'm confident that hex. NCRs will soon work everywhere. >> It still contains the unused 5*8ALPHA "registered languages" >> instead of reviving the good tradition of i-whatever tags >> for this in the times of 639-3 likely unnecessary loophole. =20 > I don't believe there is any popular sympathy, let alone consensus, to = > change this. I wonder why you would call out Addison for not changing = > it. My list contained only one point wrt consensus, the disputed = territories. It was a summary of my objections + rationale. > You guys can beat the maximum-theoretical-tag-length issue into the=20 > ground if you wish. Will do. Actually not 31, it's 35 for 5*8( ALPHA ) registered = languages. =20 >> Allegedly it's unclear that a subtag can be "undrepecated" if say (in = >> theory) ISO 3166-1 revives FX. Or rather Doug said that it's clearly >> not allowed, IMO that would be a bug. =20 > I think it's extremely clear in 4646. Whether that's a bug is another = > question, one I think deserves serious discussion. But we should be=20 > careful about breaking our own stability promises, and refusing to=20 > un-deprecate a subtag was a stability promise. IIRC we discussed cases of splits later re-uniting again for RFC 4646, e.g. a new incarnation of YU, or CS. And I thought that we made sure=20 that this will work as everybody would expect it. >> It still allows "generic" variants without prefix, they're known to = be=20 >> cumbersome (fonipa + fonupa). =20 > I don't see how they're "cumbersome."=20 The "most perverse tag" has two variants. With fonipa or fonupa it's in theory three, or even four if a pervert manages to use fonipa and fonupa simultaneously. Just an example, for 4646 we discussed generic north south westx eastx and similar cases arriving at SHOULD NOT, after fonipa and company I'm ready for MUST NOT. =20 > You're probably more likely to see a 5- to 8-letter registered=20 > language subtag before you see an extension. The barriers to > creating an extension are just too high. With a MUST NOT for generic variants folks might manage it. If more cases like fonipa + fonupa are identified maybe it will result in the first extension. Arguably better than more generic variants, each extension can have its own rules. It's hard to decide if 1996 and fonupa in the same tag could make sense or not, and what=20 the best order should be. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 05:05:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzUeP-0005k1-3C; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:05:13 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzUeO-0005ju-Gm for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:05:12 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzUeO-0005i7-50 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:05:12 -0500 Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net ([80.76.149.212]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzUeN-0006Gc-Ot for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:05:12 -0500 Received: from c83-248-80-46.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.46]:4880 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1IzUeM-0001JX-4W for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:05:10 +0100 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <20071203082927.GA6131@nic.fr> <2721.218.110.62.118.1196732106.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Subject: RE: [Ltru] RE: Remove extlang from ABNF? Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:05:05 +0100 Message-ID: <014001c8365d$281607d0$4751f853@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <2721.218.110.62.118.1196732106.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: Acg2FetN8qxFO8TlRB+HxxWQAfTkBwARoZ1Q X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.46 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1IzUeM-0001JX-4W. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1IzUeM-0001JX-4W 271b1647c5a8e460237be4b705bde1de X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Felix Sasaki wrote: > Note that this change has consequences not only for > implementations, but > also for specifications citing BCP 47 / RFC 4646. To give an > example, see e.g. > http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3079#c2 > this is a comment on a W3C draft of "XML Schema 1.1 , part 2 > - datatypes", > about the "language" data type. We were saying > "We would like to propose that you use the ABNF defined in > RFC 4646. This ABNF is stable." I, for one, don't mind keeping the extlang portions of the syntax, which even allows for up to three levels of extlangs (which was more than intented to be used 4646bis before the decision not to use this mechanism at all). It does not seem particularly harmful to keep it, even if never used for valid language tags. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 05:19:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzUs6-0004Vz-5s; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:19:22 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzUs5-0004Uj-26 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:19:21 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzUs4-0004UP-Oa for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:19:20 -0500 Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net ([80.76.149.213]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzUs3-0003Kx-9A for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:19:20 -0500 Received: from c83-248-80-46.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.46]:1036 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1IzUrX-0005oE-8L for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:18:47 +0100 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <002201c8363a$7e17ef40$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Frank's comments (was: Re: proto-draft-10) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:18:46 +0100 Message-ID: <014101c8365f$0f25fd00$4751f853@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <002201c8363a$7e17ef40$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: Acg2OoGTV4Le+5pDQ+Cr5p5rgPo8LgAI/WsA X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.46 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1IzUrX-0005oE-8L. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1IzUrX-0005oE-8L d52f9fd829f27ddfeb2289a4930fd013 X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Chairs: *do* we have consensus for adding the exceptionally reserved > 3166 codes? I'm not even asking any more for my position to > be heard; I just want to know what the decision is. Just to voice my opinion on this: I don't much mind adding *ALL* of the "exceptionally reserved" codes, but then it should be *ALL* of them (in particular including "UK", as deprecated with a preferred value, which currently is strangely excluded). /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 06:29:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzVyA-0004lb-Lv; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 06:29:42 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzVy9-0004kg-8L for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 06:29:41 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzVy8-0004kY-UN for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 06:29:40 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzVy8-0002w2-Jt for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 06:29:40 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 0C3E11C014C; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:29:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A101C0148; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:29:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED52B58EB9B; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:29:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:29:39 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Kent Karlsson Message-ID: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> References: <2721.218.110.62.118.1196732106.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> <014001c8365d$281607d0$4751f853@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <014001c8365d$281607d0$4751f853@streamserve.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 11:05:05AM +0100, Kent Karlsson wrote a message of 28 lines which said: > I, for one, don't mind keeping the extlang portions of the syntax, I believe we must keep it, because we commited to stability. Once well-formed, a tag should always be well-formed. > It does not seem particularly harmful to keep it, even if never used > for valid language tags. +1 for me _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 08:43:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzY3E-00023l-Kt; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:43:04 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzY3D-000216-6U for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:43:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzY3C-00020y-Sy for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:43:02 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzY3B-0007pG-AE for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:43:02 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzY2Z-00072l-SN for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:42:23 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:42:23 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:42:23 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:38:07 +0100 Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <2721.218.110.62.118.1196732106.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp><014001c8365d$281607d0$4751f853@streamserve.com> <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > Once well-formed, a tag should always be well-formed. There are no extlang tags yet, well-formed or otherwise. Reducing "3" if possible in 4646bis was always the plan. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 09:51:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzZ7F-00067E-K2; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:51:17 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzZ7E-0005ul-89 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:51:16 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzZ7D-0005t5-Re for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:51:15 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzZ7D-0004Xs-AQ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:51:15 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071204145113.IKWO13726.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 09:51:13 -0500 Message-ID: <004701c83685$1d9651c0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 06:51:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Frank's comments (was: Re: proto-draft-10) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Kent Karlsson wrote: > I don't much mind adding *ALL* of the "exceptionally reserved" codes, > but then it should be *ALL* of them (in particular including "UK", > as deprecated with a preferred value, which currently is strangely > excluded). RFC 4646 (section 3.4, item 8) says we don't add exact synonyms. "in" and "iw" and friends are there because they appeared in the 1988 version of ISO 639, which was cited by RFC 1766 (1995) and 3066 (2001). The fact that they has been withdrawn from ISO 639 in 1989 apparently didn't play into this. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 11:45:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzatS-0000kn-GY; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:45:10 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzatR-0000k3-De for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:45:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzatR-0000iR-3Z for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:45:09 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzatQ-0004yk-R1 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:45:09 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 56FE21C017B; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:45:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524091C0135; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:45:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4541C58ECBE; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:45:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:45:08 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Frank Ellermann Message-ID: <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 02:38:07PM +0100, Frank Ellermann wrote a message of 8 lines which said: > > Once well-formed, a tag should always be well-formed. > > There are no extlang tags yet, well-formed or otherwise. Are you sure? Did you read every XML document published to check the language tag they indicate? It is *probably* true but I find nevertheless annoying that we change the syntax in a way that will make well-formed tags illegal. It will be difficult to claim that we place stability over everything after that. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 13:22:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzcPz-0005XH-Hu; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:22:51 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzcPx-0005Wl-Qc for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:22:49 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzcPx-0005Wc-H4 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:22:49 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.226]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzcPw-0006Rg-Pq for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:22:49 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i28so2317890nzi for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:22:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Vh7ni6VFd7WE6qX8ZrH5SRMYDvc5VcSk7GLZemu0dnc=; b=ipxpJknpkUwrQsAEvgui3X7YpMwIMMi8ddsMsv7j87XKWoqTQXcsCSRAZMs+NVZeKKRQZBt27RtJDSmw6/TnYVJziRlFwLEDEOxwTW9B5vlmV4y9o243c7za2ZbHPd4uVw8ihcV6F2jBTow/0J1kc0MsGo9mTY9usCWjN4ZsFKg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UKdFUlyRXVn/5zMh0LJd30WLOcDBD03QuXAdsAR59rA7LyQEHsn7KG8TZY6MTvRW/ZxL+kbgAMW2GsRos7mPFKNoH5KfGZsqVg+isF919xl5qO24hq9O1lWtmXkzFclt3lqINuUyLwxqGx6QgYL9nSV4GtvBnxQG39yOLPQvhVU= Received: by 10.142.178.13 with SMTP id a13mr418909wff.1196792567831; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.52.7 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 10:22:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 13:22:47 -0500 From: "Ira McDonald" To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" , "Ira McDonald" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, My two cents - Stephane is dead right - as an outsider who is a protocol guy, I'm appalled that his argument isn't obvious to this list. Cheers, - Ira On Dec 4, 2007 11:45 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 02:38:07PM +0100, > Frank Ellermann wrote > a message of 8 lines which said: > > > > Once well-formed, a tag should always be well-formed. > > > > There are no extlang tags yet, well-formed or otherwise. > > Are you sure? Did you read every XML document published to check the > language tag they indicate? It is *probably* true but I find > nevertheless annoying that we change the syntax in a way that will > make well-formed tags illegal. It will be difficult to claim that we > place stability over everything after that. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 work: +1-906-494-2434 home: +1-906-494-2697 email: blueroofmusic@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 14:05:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izd4z-00071I-Ds; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:05:13 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izd4y-000716-L0 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:05:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izd4y-00070v-BB for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:05:12 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izd4w-0001V3-No for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:05:12 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Izd4r-0001Wp-O4; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:05:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:05:05 -0500 To: Ira McDonald Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Message-ID: <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Ira McDonald scripsit: > My two cents - Stephane is dead right - as an outsider who is a protocol > guy, I'm appalled that his argument isn't obvious to this list. (Disclaimer: I don't favor removing the extlang syntax from RFC 4646bis, as I don't think removing it is necessary.) The question is not so clear-cut as the terms "well-formed" and "valid" (which are derived from XML, and ultimately from predicate logic) would suggest. Well-formed but not valid language tags are much more like unassigned Unicode codepoints. They are part of the space of possible tags, but they have no meaning, and it is entirely inappropriate for anyone to use them to tag anything. Specifically, anyone who does is subject to having his meanings misinterpreted if and when the tag ever does become valid. Removing the extlang syntax is like the ISO committee deciding to remove the codepoints 110000 to 7FFFFFFF, as they did recently, in order to align with Unicode's codespace. No characters had ever been assigned there, none were ever expected to be assigned there, many things would break if any were ever assigned there. So calling that a breach of backward compatibility is true only in the most technical sense. > On Dec 4, 2007 11:45 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > > Are you sure? Did you read every XML document published to check the > > language tag they indicate? If any such documents exist, the language tags in them have no interoperable meaning. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! `Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 14:23:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdN5-00022m-9F; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:23:55 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdN3-00022W-R6 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:23:53 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdN3-00022O-HO for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:23:53 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdN3-0003ZW-6X for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:23:53 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:23:15 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.111]) with mapi; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:23:52 -0800 From: Shawn Steele To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:23:50 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg2lQujaEiHqoBbQ2e8ancLAnJAKwAFVLHg Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > There are no extlang tags yet, well-formed or otherwise. A quick web search shows several instances of extlang tags. In many cases = it seems that many of these "jumped the gun" with the description in RFC464= 6. This includes several best practices docs and other sites. The W3C's s= ite even implies that zh-cmn should be used. (it does say that its "pending= " but then pretty much describes extlang's as fait accompli.) - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 14:30:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdTk-0005rs-3J; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:30:48 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdTi-0005rk-GS for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:30:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdTi-0005rb-6s for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:30:46 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdTg-0004F6-0j for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:30:46 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IzdTc-0003UM-4s; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:30:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:30:40 -0500 To: Shawn Steele Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Message-ID: <20071204193040.GG15972@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Shawn Steele scripsit: > A quick web search shows several instances of extlang tags. In many > cases it seems that many of these "jumped the gun" with the description > in RFC4646. This includes several best practices docs and other sites. > The W3C's site even implies that zh-cmn should be used. (it does say > that its "pending" but then pretty much describes extlang's as fait > accompli.) zh-cmn and a bunch of other zh-* are grandfathered. What search did you use? -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org At times of peril or dubitation, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Perform swift circular ambulation, With loud and high-pitched ululation. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 14:59:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdvD-0005bf-5N; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:59:11 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdvC-0005aq-Co for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:59:10 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdvC-0005ai-2z for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:59:10 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzdvA-0006VZ-Kz for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:59:10 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB4Jx1OH005760; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:59:01 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=0UqF78BbAJZn3njVgHyucmp63NzdKTxkEPIpIslKhtAKwYzBT68A0ZNnPi9M2ZHI Message-ID: <4755B184.6060202@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:59:00 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Shawn Steele Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Shawn Steele wrote: >> There are no extlang tags yet, well-formed or otherwise. > > A quick web search shows several instances of extlang tags. In many cases it seems that many of these "jumped the gun" with the description in RFC4646. This includes several best practices docs and other sites. The W3C's site even implies that zh-cmn should be used. (it does say that its "pending" but then pretty much describes extlang's as fait accompli.) > No, those are registered tags from RFC 3066 days. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 15:45:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzeeE-0002HJ-52; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:45:42 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzeeD-0002Fw-CT for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:45:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzeeD-0002FG-2D for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:45:41 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzeeC-000126-Lr for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:45:41 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:45:03 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.186]) with mapi; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:45:30 -0800 From: Shawn Steele To: John Cowan Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:45:28 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg2rCrfnkcPVoLjQ3q3L4xj1xvs8gACJW2A Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204193040.GG15972@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071204193040.GG15972@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > zh-cmn and a bunch of other zh-* are grandfathered. What search did you = use? http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags for one example, I a= ssume you're using search.live.com? ;-) I assume someone'll update Wikiped= ia? "Extended Language Tags", "zh-cmn", "RFC 4646 extlang", etc. I'm not trying to assign a "correctness" value, I'm just mentioning that la= zy developers are likely to find sources such as this and work from there w= ithout reading 4646 or 4646bis. It appears that some people took the reser= ved language part of RFC4646 and turned that into a best practice. So if moving away from extlang, there should be an effort to reeducate thes= e people :) - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 18:04:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izgoq-000172-F2; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:04:48 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izgoo-0000wM-Ka for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:04:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izgon-0000uQ-TO for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:04:46 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izgom-0004V1-A5 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:04:45 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izgoi-0004Q9-4K for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:04:40 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.165]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:04:40 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:04:40 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:06:44 +0100 Organization: Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Ira McDonald wrote: > I'm appalled that his argument isn't obvious to this list. I'm appaled that simpler + shorter isn't obviously better when longer never existed. There's no practical problem with never used extlang-s. 4646 implementations supporting them in theory can't cause harm if they "misidentify" a tag as "well formed" that never existed, and isn't well formed any more in 4646bis. On the other hand forcing 4646bis implementations to accept something as well formed that doesn't exist *IS* harmful. =20 Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 18:15:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izgyz-0004mN-Ex; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:15:17 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izgyy-0004m6-KW for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:15:16 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izgyw-0004la-4N for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:15:16 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izgyu-0005OS-Rl for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:15:14 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izgyk-0006TL-Ro for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:15:02 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.165]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:15:02 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:15:02 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:16:58 +0100 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr><20071204193040.GG15972@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Shawn Steele wrote: > if moving away from extlang, there should be an effort to > reeducate these people :) The idea was that 4646 implementations can deal with whatever happens in 4646bis wrt extlang-s, and "3" was identified as worst case. "1" was what I hoped for 4646bis, "0" is better. Updating Wikipedia isn't our job - just a few days ago I've updated the "frs" and "gsw" articles, IIRC "frs" still had an old SIL code. =20 =20 Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 19:03:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izhjp-0008Uf-S3; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:03:41 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izhjo-0008UL-IF for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:03:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izhjo-0008UC-7w for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:03:40 -0500 Received: from mta7.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.193]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izhjn-0001C7-9S for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:03:40 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071204150021.XKTQ22833.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 10:00:21 -0500 Message-ID: <004b01c83686$6441f1a0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 07:00:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Subject: [Ltru] Re: proto-draft-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > [i-sealand] >> They speak, or spoke, English there, and maybe a bit of >> Dutch. Countries aren't the issue: languages are. > > And a bit of de-x-nazi at a critical period of the post-war > Sealand history. At later periods they might have spoken > anything resulting in an increased pagerank for their Web > pages and related activities (selling passports, etc.) If you mean something like Endlösung der Judenfrage then this is specialized jargon, on a par with: Smith flied to left with two out. This is an organized shop. and whatever your favorite "Eurocrat" jargon might be. Only in the last case have we decided this is a taggable distinction. > There's no substantial difference between micronation and > registered language, sooner or later somebody will try it > for (putting it mildly) non-linguistic purposes. Then it's the Reviewer's job, perhaps with help from the ietf-languages list members, to see through the ruse and refuse to register such a subtag. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 19:52:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IziUs-0004CE-Pc; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:52:18 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IziUr-0004C0-D2 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:52:17 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IziUr-0004Bq-3J for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:52:17 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IziUn-0003qw-BM for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:52:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E532BC11; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:52:11 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wupifGBDOxAp; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:52:11 +0900 (JST) Received: by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 33) id 026942BBF5; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:52:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from 218.110.62.217 (SquirrelMail authenticated user fsasaki) by webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp with HTTP; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:52:10 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <2996.218.110.62.217.1196815930.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:52:10 +0900 (JST) Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? From: "Felix Sasaki" To: "Shawn Steele" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.9a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-2022-jp X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: fsasaki@w3.org List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org >> There are no extlang tags yet, well-formed or otherwise. > > A quick web search shows several instances of extlang tags. In many ca= ses > it seems that many of these "jumped the gun" with the description in > RFC4646. This includes several best practices docs and other sites. T= he > W3C's site even implies that zh-cmn should be used. (it does say that i= ts > "pending" but then pretty much describes extlang's as fait accompli.) and this is the tip of an iceberg: We spend a fair amount of time to evangelize BCP 47 with RFC 4646 syntax this year within W3C (not only XML Schema WG), always saying "The ABNF is stable". I don't plan to go back t= o these people to say now "stable, but ...", but if it can't be avoided ... Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 20:19:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzivX-0001RE-Pm; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:19:51 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzivX-0001Ql-4H for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:19:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzivW-0001Qc-Qe for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:19:50 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.177]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzivW-0005OB-Cd for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:19:50 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so6804487wah for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:19:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=eVvb8aUkhfXTH8KGk9DK9wanAjxLoe92TfKkHD1B2PA=; b=fZcJtFFrwbOrERyRvitc2uwe86OcfTiDztULGSJAStsQEedFQJ4rgzvV6YcF7pvaVLZg6XU167gRobyldhiF2vxXSpMI4P8hgXDplHfM5l3mhvYr0GYaz6gzlKuqflq58YSrOfZ8kEBQ3P3ppByb+mF6KzI31oHMoa+pF3Ywnig= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=IiNhuvbxaxESaCaCuaCAJLX7l8ojPYkXGAOet9npxqZO97Lnd+sfaimfu6YS1zPfYjjLm9H3Qx1oOk0jXUDAJQwjO4taQa5i5BiOAyy4XvyFm7q2Q04tY4r6yHMI8tuRS3BoaNgq6SZStvWilYeN/sCb8O+yvnv4BoI6Z4fmIAA= Received: by 10.142.245.10 with SMTP id s10mr652972wfh.1196817589612; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:19:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.52.7 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:19:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:19:49 -0500 From: "Ira McDonald" To: fsasaki@w3.org, "Ira McDonald" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <2996.218.110.62.217.1196815930.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <2996.218.110.62.217.1196815930.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Ditto - I was just explaining extlang subtags in a localization overview two weeks ago to an IEEE-ISTO PWG working group doing a Projector MIB. I respectively suggest that the ABNF production be left intact, but an ABNF comment (and preceding/following body text) be added that says "DEPRECATED - present only for backward compatibility". Cheers, - Ira PS - ABNF is supposed to be totally stable in PWG standards-track specs. On Dec 4, 2007 7:52 PM, Felix Sasaki wrote: > >> There are no extlang tags yet, well-formed or otherwise. > > > > A quick web search shows several instances of extlang tags. In many cases > > it seems that many of these "jumped the gun" with the description in > > RFC4646. This includes several best practices docs and other sites. The > > W3C's site even implies that zh-cmn should be used. (it does say that its > > "pending" but then pretty much describes extlang's as fait accompli.) > > and this is the tip of an iceberg: We spend a fair amount of time to > evangelize BCP 47 with RFC 4646 syntax this year within W3C (not only XML > Schema WG), always saying "The ABNF is stable". I don't plan to go back to > these people to say now "stable, but ...", but if it can't be avoided ... > > Felix > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 work: +1-906-494-2434 home: +1-906-494-2697 email: blueroofmusic@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 20:55:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzjUL-0008VM-6r; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:55:49 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzjUK-0008V2-Mx for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:55:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzjUK-0008Uk-CX for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:55:48 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzjUI-0007EE-6a for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:55:48 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzjUF-00048k-14 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:55:43 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.165]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:55:43 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:55:43 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 02:57:42 +0100 Organization: Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <2996.218.110.62.217.1196815930.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Felix Sasaki wrote: > We spend a fair amount of time to evangelize BCP 47 with RFC 4646 > syntax this year within W3C (not only XML Schema WG) That the WG claiming that IRI is just a modern name for URI, or do I confuse this with XHTML modularization ? > always saying "The ABNF is stable". I don't plan to go back to > these people to say now "stable, but ..." It's stable in the sense that it won't match any existing tag, and it will continue to not match any existing tag. It will only miss=20 some non-existing tags, where a 4646bis implementation can be smarter based on a simplified ABNF. BTW, the discussion of the "most perverse tag" isn't affected=20 by keeping or trimming the obsolete ABNF, zero extlang-s is zero extlang-s no matter what the ABNF says. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 21:11:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzjjP-0007dd-Dz; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:11:23 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzjjO-0007dR-1q for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:11:22 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzjjN-0007dH-OG for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:11:21 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzjjN-00082v-8V for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:11:21 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzjjF-0006uH-6Z for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 02:11:13 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.165]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 02:11:13 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 02:11:13 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 03:13:13 +0100 Organization: Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <004b01c83686$6441f1a0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: proto-draft-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > If you mean something like Endl=C3=B6sung > der Judenfrage then this is specialized jargon Yeah (maybe the occupants of Sealand were not that mad, the continued existence of the 3rd Reich is a legal fiction, and a different crackpot faction, the Sealand occupants and the 3rd Reich group "recognized" each other "diplomatically", or something in this direction). Possibly Sealand still has a "government in exile" (i.e. the former occupants, not more related to the "Prince" and the "real" government of Sealand - I didn't follow what happened after a fire destroyed the generators of the "Sealand" platform in 2006) >> There's no substantial difference between micronation and >> registered language, sooner or later somebody will try it >> for (putting it mildly) non-linguistic purposes. =20 > Then it's the Reviewer's job, perhaps with help from the=20 > ietf-languages list members, to see through the ruse and > refuse to register such a subtag. They can be very persistent :-( Of course the syntactical structure of "i-whatever" vs. "whatever" won't help in this regard, I just like "i-whatever" better for various reasons. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 21:11:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izjjt-0007o9-40; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:11:53 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izjjr-0007o0-Ig for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:11:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izjjq-0007ns-Tm for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:11:50 -0500 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izjjo-00085y-Ja for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:11:50 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lB52BjOt007045 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:11:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 4eb4_6daa215a_a2d7_11dc_9ebb_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:11:45 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:47128) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:07:47 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071205094046.06e2bec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:49:00 +0900 To: LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Subject: [Ltru] no teleconference this week X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I received an announcement from some calendar system for an LTRU teleconference this week. However, it's my understanding that we have reached a resolution on our main point of contention and that currently, no further teleconference is needed. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 21:38:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izk9u-0005CE-A7; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:38:46 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izk9t-0005Bx-29 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:38:45 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izk9s-0005Bh-OU for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:38:44 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izk9o-00013D-Vq for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:38:44 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF372BC25; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:38:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30qGbVj0MgLO; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:38:39 +0900 (JST) Received: by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 33) id 0584C2BC1C; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:38:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from 218.110.62.217 (SquirrelMail authenticated user fsasaki) by webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp with HTTP; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:38:38 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3151.218.110.62.217.1196822318.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <2996.218.110.62.217.1196815930.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:38:38 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? From: "Felix Sasaki" To: "Frank Ellermann" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.9a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-2022-jp X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: fsasaki@w3.org List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Felix Sasaki wrote: > >> We spend a fair amount of time to evangelize BCP 47 with RFC 4646 >> syntax this year within W3C (not only XML Schema WG) > > That the WG claiming that IRI is just a modern name for URI, or do I > confuse this with XHTML modularization ? > >> always saying "The ABNF is stable". I don't plan to go back to >> these people to say now "stable, but ..." > > It's stable in the sense that it won't match any existing tag, and > it will continue to not match any existing tag. you are discussing in terms of data. I argued to working groups in terms of an ABNF and asking them "please implement this ABNF in your spec, it i= s stable *as an ABNF*". This argument of stability of the ABNF (not data) was (and is) is a very strong means for BCP 47 outreach to emerging technologies. Changing the ABNF now means potentially loosing this argument. Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 21:52:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkNB-0002BF-Cp; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:52:29 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkNA-0002B8-JK for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:52:28 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkN9-0002Az-VE for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:52:27 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.181]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkN8-0001im-R5 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:52:27 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so6865079wah for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:52:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=t255fLe67M677dy3dKMYW+dzWl3TwaE7LnvbrMTbbvQ=; b=nsddfMLe/ioqN95TgRUVUA4qGEZgv9X4xRmgy0DpeM9yqDlkt/kclGgGW3bMiUwK2BTEKeH3LYPjY8xfVn380RhpKdvIzQc7cKSbTdixXQsqDfnWsnvOF48FdHAAET4U5vua8yym6KMSoKfR9+06lf/uCFXijYnEbm3akcxfJg0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=SGviIiL0eXSAZCrcucgaQonMttNQHSJHM7oXa7oyjAHNAO/SUGK/+7L9lXlPkE1MmQBmFfkDMZqAL/SglspxdukS112StIVlcHuMiZ7V48xSRK1FazkdW5vKBoZ4Ywwb0ZVZJkKyMBQ+U5ATa/nqLg7q0b1CGwJO99I9UyxpUOc= Received: by 10.142.103.6 with SMTP id a6mr672875wfc.1196823145010; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.128.8 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:52:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:52:24 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7695c59cff678e9f X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0274391644==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0274391644== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_26199_12099803.1196823144992" ------=_Part_26199_12099803.1196823144992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree completely with John. There are no possible current *valid* tags that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left open for the future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to existing data or code. Mark On Dec 4, 2007 11:05 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Ira McDonald scripsit: > > > My two cents - Stephane is dead right - as an outsider who is a protocol > > guy, I'm appalled that his argument isn't obvious to this list. > > (Disclaimer: I don't favor removing the extlang syntax from RFC 4646bis, > as I don't think removing it is necessary.) > > The question is not so clear-cut as the terms "well-formed" and "valid" > (which are derived from XML, and ultimately from predicate logic) would > suggest. Well-formed but not valid language tags are much more like > unassigned Unicode codepoints. They are part of the space of possible > tags, but they have no meaning, and it is entirely inappropriate for > anyone to use them to tag anything. Specifically, anyone who does is > subject to having his meanings misinterpreted if and when the tag ever > does become valid. > > Removing the extlang syntax is like the ISO committee deciding to remove > the codepoints 110000 to 7FFFFFFF, as they did recently, in order to align > with Unicode's codespace. No characters had ever been assigned there, > none were ever expected to be assigned there, many things would break > if any were ever assigned there. So calling that a breach of backward > compatibility is true only in the most technical sense. > > > On Dec 4, 2007 11:45 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > > > Are you sure? Did you read every XML document published to check the > > > language tag they indicate? > > If any such documents exist, the language tags in them have no > interoperable meaning. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan < > cowan@ccil.org> > You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. > You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. > Clear all so! `Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_26199_12099803.1196823144992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree completely with John. There are no possible current *valid* tags that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left open for the future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to existing data or code.

Mark

On Dec 4, 2007 11:05 AM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Ira McDonald scripsit:

> My two cents - Stephane is dead right - as an outsider who is a protocol
> guy, I'm appalled that his argument isn't obvious to this list.

(Disclaimer: I don't favor removing the extlang syntax from RFC 4646bis,
as I don't think removing it is necessary.)

The question is not so clear-cut as the terms "well-formed" and "valid"
(which are derived from XML, and ultimately from predicate logic) would
suggest.  Well-formed but not valid language tags are much more like
unassigned Unicode codepoints.  They are part of the space of possible
tags, but they have no meaning, and it is entirely inappropriate for
anyone to use them to tag anything.  Specifically, anyone who does is
subject to having his meanings misinterpreted if and when the tag ever
does become valid.

Removing the extlang syntax is like the ISO committee deciding to remove
the codepoints 110000 to 7FFFFFFF, as they did recently, in order to align
with Unicode's codespace.  No characters had ever been assigned there,
none were ever expected to be assigned there, many things would break
if any were ever assigned there.  So calling that a breach of backward
compatibility is true only in the most technical sense.

> On Dec 4, 2007 11:45 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote:
> > Are you sure? Did you read every XML document published to check the
> > language tag they indicate?

If any such documents exist, the language tags in them have no
interoperable meaning.

--
John Cowan       http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        <cowan@ccil.org>
       You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
       You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
               Clear all so!  `Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_26199_12099803.1196823144992-- --===============0274391644== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0274391644==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 21:54:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkOs-0006NL-LR; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:54:14 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkOr-0006Bp-6a for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:54:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkOq-00068P-PP for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:54:12 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkOp-0001pc-CV for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:54:12 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id n1so2531410nzf for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:54:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=rSTOB8lISaOjX1YOyTMsQIwdXNnCgaroAzO6Ql9MfUk=; b=Zi/dbk7h8mjwQFTEpxz0892ZM1nIGl2W3hhUFk7Bmd/5DkegEbQgrnYzrIxCblLQW2xmdbMi7NvKX2tJ3vXbcJPYkZHQQcatCOPfR6KN0ov4crE1g1PEt0rO/LE636gfnilH/mfSeHL2ertZJmyILveIgTi1xTAwpZxCC7ifESA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=UFozTsIKZ9aqj/hNZr3s4HGwOPgBqQlrvjNWPVjFBH5C++T5QNyFvT9vKasbRQcxJNgLptw7HTH1SJVQVY+KtuCq/LOpuj0jSTjGbJUoDPvv3Fl0uXYCRazwzfqFwYsXkudN++zGQEccNAfAKfq5O74iCO4UUiaidULULLow7BI= Received: by 10.142.245.10 with SMTP id s10mr667572wfh.1196823249627; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.128.8 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:54:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712041854n243fe259k9390c5cc315cc6a7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:54:09 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Martin Duerst" Subject: Re: [Ltru] no teleconference this week In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071205094046.06e2bec0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20071205094046.06e2bec0@localhost> X-Google-Sender-Auth: ece32eb859cb89eb X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1286853022==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1286853022== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_26219_1730377.1196823249640" ------=_Part_26219_1730377.1196823249640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We can close the telecon down, if we don't think that it would be useful in clarifying and finishing off the remaining items. Mark On Dec 4, 2007 4:49 PM, Martin Duerst wrote: > I received an announcement from some calendar system for an LTRU > teleconference this week. However, it's my understanding that > we have reached a resolution on our main point of contention and > that currently, no further teleconference is needed. > > Regards, Martin. > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_26219_1730377.1196823249640 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We can close the telecon down, if we don't think that it would be useful in clarifying and finishing off the remaining items.

Mark

On Dec 4, 2007 4:49 PM, Martin Duerst < duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
I received an announcement from some calendar system for an LTRU
teleconference this week. However, it's my understanding that
we have reached a resolution on our main point of contention and
that currently, no further teleconference is needed.

Regards,   Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp



_______________________________________________
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Mark ------=_Part_26219_1730377.1196823249640-- --===============1286853022== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1286853022==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 22:30:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkyH-0003eI-EX; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:30:49 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkyF-0003e8-VF for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:30:47 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkyF-0003e0-LV for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:30:47 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzkyF-0003V7-Aa for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:30:47 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IzkyA-00030G-IZ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:30:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:30:42 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Message-ID: <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > I agree completely with John. There are no possible current *valid* tags > that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left open for the > future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to existing data or > code. As I said, I don't favor removing them -- there is no gain from doing so except a theoretical nicety. -- Well, I have news for our current leaders John Cowan and the leaders of tomorrow: the Bill of cowan@ccil.org Rights is not a frivolous luxury, in force http://www.ccil.org/~cowan only during times of peace and prosperity. We don't just push it to the side when the going gets tough. --Molly Ivins _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 22:33:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izl1K-0005UW-3m; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:33:58 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izl1I-0005Sa-RE for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:33:56 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izl1I-0005S4-HK for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:33:56 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izl1I-0003gL-5p for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:33:56 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD57A2BC25; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:33:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uNCuoxY3OhAN; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:33:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p3080-ipad508marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.148.90.80]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91ACF2BC1E; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:33:54 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <47561C1C.9040307@w3.org> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:33:48 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > I agree completely with John. There are no possible current *valid* > tags that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left open > for the future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to > existing data or code. how about existing specs that cite RFC 4646 and the "stable" ABNF? Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 22:36:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izl3M-0007VQ-P1; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:36:04 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izl3L-0007PV-HJ for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:36:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izl3L-0007NU-5n for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:36:03 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.181]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izl3K-0003ng-Jg for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:36:03 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so6892259wah for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:36:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=4GEd+ffVMQ1p3bNSWXE95dJKBwxvDTFsWjr3ihI8jUU=; b=dHmNK1e3ma/r/d04x5pIzMNIrgDZT78hWXtLGGBa2SI3ortJ1KPLRMed5KGaRTd3ljDvjocidqvQyOs/JPgrASomjYfSWlPEVj4w00/JDfBF6Uql0g6ySCG5z1XOMh56yIz7rBBJyCMpdrdTn0z84fl2vR7fSimq5hw+9xrU11E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=p1ix6oPLgTLJW0t7b9Rbn5xTSbPmquq62UsC1ZLz0mi/YOGOqdYcYXE2BYUYBm+cCwKV6xTExjK2PiXT6q/es/fZpMa+Halp4XWf7YeBSFYthfDKDqhNNiF1lDrRH1GalqvJNKOnySuWG7eoBsZQv09iA0YX/6ZMOEU5lZymuCE= Received: by 10.115.89.1 with SMTP id r1mr1653046wal.1196825761904; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:36:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:36:01 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: bb4edd1611ca6fc7 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1282440984==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1282440984== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_439_31821148.1196825761898" ------=_Part_439_31821148.1196825761898 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sorry; didn't mean to imply that. I meant that I agree with your discussion of why removing them is not an formal problem. While I agree that we don't have to remove the syntax, removing them would be more than a nicety: it makes the syntax checking significantly simpler, as well as simplifying any APIs that are used with language tags. Mark On Dec 4, 2007 7:30 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > I agree completely with John. There are no possible current *valid* tags > > that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left open for the > > future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to existing data or > > code. > > As I said, I don't favor removing them -- there is no gain from doing so > except a theoretical nicety. > > -- > Well, I have news for our current leaders John Cowan > and the leaders of tomorrow: the Bill of cowan@ccil.org > Rights is not a frivolous luxury, in force http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > only during times of peace and prosperity. > We don't just push it to the side when the going gets tough. --Molly > Ivins > -- Mark ------=_Part_439_31821148.1196825761898 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sorry; didn't mean to imply that. I meant that I agree with your discussion of why removing them is not an formal problem.

While I agree that we don't have to remove the syntax, removing them would be more than a nicety: it makes the syntax checking significantly simpler, as well as simplifying any APIs that are used with language tags.

Mark

On Dec 4, 2007 7:30 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> I agree completely with John. There are no possible current *valid* tags
> that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left open for the
> future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to existing data or
> code.

As I said, I don't favor removing them -- there is no gain from doing so
except a theoretical nicety.

--
Well, I have news for our current leaders       John Cowan
and the leaders of tomorrow: the Bill of        cowan@ccil.org
Rights is not a frivolous luxury, in force      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
only during times of peace and prosperity.
We don't just push it to the side when the going gets tough.  --Molly Ivins



--
Mark ------=_Part_439_31821148.1196825761898-- --===============1282440984== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1282440984==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 22:49:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlGn-0008GU-2T; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:49:57 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlGl-0008Fg-Nt for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:49:55 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlGl-0008FY-At for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:49:55 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.180]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlGk-0004L4-EC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:49:55 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so6901665wah for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:49:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=v22cC4C7AvaaNgiG29FXqQySL/Qww/tOOudLJwxyKxw=; b=hbeBKSeDnKiD7brDYHLHvuESYyrVbarr9mGO0B7y9cL5/td5yIAS59AcQBxXezAM6nAoKQTxIEs4V51sn96gEP/ISMLn/oIdLtiz4gnZ3KyYxKthKAwFA0tSgMROK48Q+YF3PgVwUIowdFoD9zkPQF+YLsAmRxI6eFI9sN2HhW8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=HkJSzgkkXwFWiAKifjn6qMCKMEGFq7trsh7n0vmMN5a2VdjcDt2lHk6gS1H3ExM9/J6m2vi45offWTWeyDQgmjTWeBs6mxN94X2j77MSXFT8dtzSDC5L3P7CqySIoD6/qxAYDUs5sIFZT8PX10J5XrjSHNTMpZF5EF+aM5wYUbc= Received: by 10.114.88.1 with SMTP id l1mr1640172wab.1196826591289; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:49:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:49:51 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 274811db5153a8a5 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5011df3e2a27abcc044eaa15befcaa87 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1532238051==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1532238051== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_471_13398135.1196826591291" ------=_Part_471_13398135.1196826591291 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It doesn't cause a problem. Any existing tag that does not match the new ABNF was, in fact, invalid under RFC 4646. (The ABNF is the "convex hull" of the definition of valid language tags; all valid language tags must follow the ABNF, but the vast majority of strings that do fit the ABNF are not valid language tags.) As far as I can see, we have the following alternatives: 1. Remove extlang from the ABNF. 2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is "permanently reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO). 3. Leave extlang in the ABNF, and just leave in the documentation from RFC 4646 that it is not used in the current version. Here is my take. - #1 is the cleanest (for reasons given earlier). - #2 is functionally identical to #1, but may feel warmer and fuzzier to some people. - #3 we could live with, although it would be slightly suboptimal. Mark On Dec 4, 2007 7:36 PM, Mark Davis wrote: > Sorry; didn't mean to imply that. I meant that I agree with your > discussion of why removing them is not an formal problem. > > While I agree that we don't have to remove the syntax, removing them would > be more than a nicety: it makes the syntax checking significantly simpler, > as well as simplifying any APIs that are used with language tags. > > Mark > > > On Dec 4, 2007 7:30 PM, John Cowan wrote: > > > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > > > I agree completely with John. There are no possible current *valid* > > tags > > > that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left open for > > the > > > future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to existing data > > or > > > code. > > > > As I said, I don't favor removing them -- there is no gain from doing so > > except a theoretical nicety. > > > > -- > > Well, I have news for our current leaders John Cowan > > and the leaders of tomorrow: the Bill of cowan@ccil.org > > Rights is not a frivolous luxury, in force http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > > > > only during times of peace and prosperity. > > We don't just push it to the side when the going gets tough. --Molly > > Ivins > > > > > > -- > Mark -- Mark ------=_Part_471_13398135.1196826591291 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It doesn't cause a problem. Any existing tag that does not match the new ABNF was, in fact, invalid under RFC 4646.

(The ABNF is the "convex hull" of the definition of valid language tags; all valid language tags must follow the ABNF, but the vast majority of strings that do fit the ABNF are not valid language tags.)

As far as I can see, we have the following alternatives:
  1. Remove extlang from the ABNF.
  2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is "permanently reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO).
  3. Leave extlang in the ABNF, and just leave in the documentation from RFC 4646 that it is not used in the current version.
Here is my take.
  • #1 is the cleanest (for reasons given earlier).
  • #2 is functionally identical to #1, but may feel warmer and fuzzier to some people.
  • #3 we could live with, although it would be slightly suboptimal.
Mark

On Dec 4, 2007 7:36 PM, Mark Davis < mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote:
Sorry; didn't mean to imply that. I meant that I agree with your discussion of why removing them is not an formal problem.

While I agree that we don't have to remove the syntax, removing them would be more than a nicety: it makes the syntax checking significantly simpler, as well as simplifying any APIs that are used with language tags.

Mark


On Dec 4, 2007 7:30 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> I agree completely with John. There are no possible current *valid* tags
> that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left open for the
> future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to existing data or
> code.

As I said, I don't favor removing them -- there is no gain from doing so
except a theoretical nicety.

--
Well, I have news for our current leaders       John Cowan
and the leaders of tomorrow: the Bill of        cowan@ccil.org
Rights is not a frivolous luxury, in force       http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
only during times of peace and prosperity.
We don't just push it to the side when the going gets tough.  --Molly Ivins



--
Mark



--
Mark ------=_Part_471_13398135.1196826591291-- --===============1532238051== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1532238051==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 22:58:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlOq-0005tN-6j; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:58:16 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlOo-0005rq-RK for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:58:14 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlOo-0005r1-HL for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:58:14 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlOm-0004lL-Ri for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:58:14 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlOf-0007Ha-AB for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:58:05 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.165]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:58:05 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:58:05 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 05:00:08 +0100 Organization: Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <47561C1C.9040307@w3.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Felix Sasaki wrote: > how about existing specs that cite RFC 4646 and the "stable" ABNF? How about W3C documents using raw IRIs in documents claiming to be valid HTML 4 or XHTML 1 with a spec. talking about RFC 2396 ? Or the odd system ID in the XML spec. working nowhere including the W3C validator. =20 IIRC you made sure that these spec.s say BCP 47, and where they didn't follow your guidance its their fault, not yours. It was kind of obvious that the three extlang-s were reserved precisely in the hope that 4646bis tags won't break 4646 parsers. In fact 4646bis tags also won't break 3066 parsers, that's how they are designed. =20 OTOH new 4646bis implementations can be both simpler and smarter than old 4646 or older 3066 implementations. If folks need say XML 1.0 2nd ed. as opposed to "XML 1.0 de jour" they'll have to go to the trouble to spell it out, nothing's unusual about this. BTW, the 4646bis drafts already modified the ABNF, the extlang business is not the only update, there is already a new concept of "irregular". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 23:00:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlRB-0004XD-Ak; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:00:41 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlR9-0004SU-Sj for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:00:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlR9-0004Rb-IF for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:00:39 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlR9-0004rT-CT for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:00:39 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IzlR5-0005Jd-Bp; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:00:35 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:00:35 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Message-ID: <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > 2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is "permanently > reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO). I favor this. -- Yes, chili in the eye is bad, but so is your John Cowan ear. However, I would suggest you wash your cowan@ccil.org hands thoroughly before going to the toilet. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --gadicath _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 23:09:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlZx-0002Ij-16; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:09:45 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlZv-0002Hl-JS for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:09:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlZv-0002Hc-9l for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:09:43 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlZv-0005Cf-0j for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:09:43 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzlZm-0000Vq-0v for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 04:09:34 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.165]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 04:09:34 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 04:09:34 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 05:11:37 +0100 Organization: Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr><20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com><20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: =20 > Here is my take. =20 > - #1 is the cleanest (for reasons given earlier). > - #2 is functionally identical to #1, but may feel warmer and > fuzzier to some people. > - #3 we could live with, although it would be slightly suboptimal. #3 is weird, and in #2 needs to be replaced by as name of the sytactical term. It shouldn't feel warm and fuzzy. Frank (+1 for #1) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 23:41:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izm4d-00014z-Lz; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:41:27 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izm4b-0000wb-SC for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:41:25 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izm4b-0000vW-Gu for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:41:25 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izm4Z-0006KO-Pz for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:41:25 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F7D2BC25; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:41:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AgE+bVVlh6Wr; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:41:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p3080-ipad508marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.148.90.80]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF092BC1E; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:41:16 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:41:10 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis scripsit: > > >> 2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is "permanently >> reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO). >> > > I favor this. > me too. Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 23:41:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izm51-0002LN-7t; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:41:51 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izm50-0002Jp-KG for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:41:50 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izm50-0002J3-A1 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:41:50 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izm4z-0006LA-UA for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:41:50 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071205044149.DRKP55.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:41:49 -0500 Message-ID: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:41:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Subject: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > We can close the telecon down, if we don't think that it would be > useful in clarifying and finishing off the remaining items. Is there still talk of opening up 4647 to add something about the Macrolanguage field and its potential use in matching? (not arguing for or against) -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 23:51:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmDw-0001CX-Dh; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:51:04 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmDv-0001Bx-Vv for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:51:03 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmDv-0001Bn-KQ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:51:03 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.176]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmDv-0001la-1Z for ltru@ietf.org; 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Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:51:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:51:02 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week In-Reply-To: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b63478fff2593d1e X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0933682139==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0933682139== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_696_20009492.1196830262310" ------=_Part_696_20009492.1196830262310 Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0933682139==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 23:54:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmHa-0003GM-9o; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:54:50 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmHY-0003Cm-KR for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:54:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmHY-0003Ax-9S for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:54:48 -0500 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmHX-0006jD-K9 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:54:48 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071205045447.XTU21128.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:54:47 -0500 Message-ID: <002f01c836fa$f5aae240$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:54:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Frank's comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (Resending this message, which apparently fell into a black hole) Frank Ellermann wrote: >> Do we need to provide a definition of the Latin script? > > My definition is simple: MES-1, optionally plus a few glyphs used on > a "popular" platform. What's your definition, Latin-1 ? Not at all. If I thought it was unclear, I would probably use the Unicode (UAX #24) definition: all characters in the string have script value 'Latn' or 'Zyyy" (Common) or "Qaai' (Inherited). The reloaded 4645bis Registry will contain some language subtags with only one Description field, which is not pure Latin-1. These are things like a-with-macron and s-with-dot-below, for some Indian languages. This is still Latin. > Okay. So what does the new MUSTard in the draft ? Is it about the > variants or "registered languages", and why would anybody want say > some fonipa transliteration in addition to the description(s) offered > by the requester ? What's special with "Latn" in a broad Unicode > sense, why no Kore, Jpan, or Brai ? For RFC 4646 we made sure that we > have _no_ prejudice for Latn, and permit (in theory) all code points. Description fields are permitted in any imaginable script. But one of the fields for a given subtag has to be in the Latin script. > You hit an example that I can read, therefore I recall that the review > list managed this registration without a new MUST. Rules are better than relying on enlightened statesmen. >>> It still contains the unused 5*8ALPHA "registered languages" instead >>> of reviving the good tradition of i-whatever tags for this in the >>> times of 639-3 likely unnecessary loophole. > >> I don't believe there is any popular sympathy, let alone consensus, >> to change this. I wonder why you would call out Addison for not >> changing it. > > My list contained only one point wrt consensus, the disputed > territories. It was a summary of my objections + rationale. I understand this. What I don't understand is why you mentioned "it still contains the registered language subtags." Of course it does; there was no agreement to change this. > IIRC we discussed cases of splits later re-uniting again for RFC 4646, > e.g. a new incarnation of YU, or CS. And I thought that we made sure > that this will work as everybody would expect it. As I said, I think this issue deserves serious discussion. I don't recall it being discussed before. But once we do reach a decision -- preferably certified by a chair-declared consensus -- we should stick with it and not reopen the issue. > The "most perverse tag" has two variants. With fonipa or fonupa it's > in theory three, or even four if a pervert manages to use fonipa and > fonupa simultaneously. Tag content wisely. > Just an example, for 4646 we discussed generic north south westx eastx > and similar cases arriving at SHOULD NOT, after fonipa and company I'm > ready for MUST NOT. 'north' and 'south' and company, used generically, are not clearly defined. Sometimes the concepts are clearly defined when used with a specific language, such as Armenian, but not in other cases. How would one define "de-DE-north" and "de-DE-south"? IPA and UPA are a completely different matter. It is very clear when a non-trivial passage of text is written in IPA. >> You're probably more likely to see a 5- to 8-letter registered >> language subtag before you see an extension. The barriers to >> creating an extension are just too high. > > With a MUST NOT for generic variants folks might manage it. If more > cases like fonipa + fonupa are identified maybe it will result in the > first extension. Arguably better than more generic variants, each > extension can have its own rules. It's hard to decide if 1996 and > fonupa in the same tag could make sense or not, and what the best > order should be. Don't forget, I argued for extensions for the IPA/UPA case. The reaction was clear, from both the LTRU and ietf-languages lists: nobody wanted to see extensions used for this. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 23:55:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmI4-000499-4F; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:55:20 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmI2-00048u-W7 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:55:18 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmI2-00048m-MW for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:55:18 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmI1-0006k7-1Y for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:55:18 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B23E2BC25; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:55:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jDVBEVhzJpYU; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:55:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p3080-ipad508marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.148.90.80]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8432BBF8; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:55:13 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <47562F2D.4050000@w3.org> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:55:09 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <47561C1C.9040307@w3.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > Felix Sasaki wrote: > > >> how about existing specs that cite RFC 4646 and the "stable" ABNF? >> > > How about W3C documents using raw IRIs in documents claiming to > be valid HTML 4 or XHTML 1 with a spec. talking about RFC 2396 ? > Or the odd system ID in the XML spec. working nowhere including > the W3C validator. > > IIRC you made sure that these spec.s say BCP 47, and where they > didn't follow your guidance its their fault, not yours. It was > kind of obvious that the three extlang-s were reserved precisely > in the hope that 4646bis tags won't break 4646 parsers. In fact > 4646bis tags also won't break 3066 parsers, that's how they are > designed. > > OTOH new 4646bis implementations can be both simpler and smarter > than old 4646 or older 3066 implementations. If folks need say > XML 1.0 2nd ed. as opposed to "XML 1.0 de jour" they'll have to > go to the trouble to spell it out, nothing's unusual about this. > Maybe you are not aware of the situation that language tags are nearly the only IETF spec where W3C uses a BCP reference, or before that an "RFC XXX or its successor" reference - in difference to IRI, btw . All I want is that BCP 47 will not loose this special status within W3C, and having as less changes to the ABNF as really necessary will make it much easier to achieve this. You might say you don't care about this status, but reading Ira's mail, it seems other people are in a similar situation. Regarding the change of "irregular", this seems to me much easier to sell to people than deleting the extlang production. Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 23:56:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmJ7-0004t7-DV; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:56:25 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmJ5-0004t1-SK for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:56:23 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmJ5-0004st-Hb for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:56:23 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmJ5-0001uq-1H for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:56:23 -0500 Received: from [10.72.77.114] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c114.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.114]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB54u8WI037802; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:56:08 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=V2LLj71K/nW60fVqPqJobsfFEaUpHblWc+W3H1ClVbWYgHvxT0jG3P6u1yLtEAjP Message-ID: <47562F67.6060905@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:56:07 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week References: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com id lB54u8WI037802 X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org There is already a note in 4646bis about Macrolanguage. Perhaps take a=20 look at it and comment directly on the text? Addison Mark Davis wrote: > If we wanted to do the minimum, we'd put at least a note in 4646bis=20 > about the potential use of the macrolanguage field, with some cautions=20 > (something like a very limited version of the text I'd proposed for=20 > 4647bis); alternatively, I put the latter text out on the table, and=20 > could make a 4647bis draft on that basis (as modified during subsequent= =20 > discussion -- I'm not wedded to that exact text). >=20 > What do people think? >=20 > Mark >=20 > On Dec 4, 2007 8:41 PM, Doug Ewell > wrote: >=20 > Mark Davis wrote: >=20 > > We can close the telecon down, if we don't think that it would b= e > > useful in clarifying and finishing off the remaining items. >=20 > Is there still talk of opening up 4647 to add something about the > Macrolanguage field and its potential use in matching? >=20 > (not arguing for or against) >=20 > -- > Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell > > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages =CB=86 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Mark >=20 >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 04 23:58:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmKr-0005Km-HW; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:58:13 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmKq-0005Kc-8I for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:58:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmKp-0005KU-V4 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:58:11 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmKp-0006p9-9s for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:58:11 -0500 Received: from [10.72.77.114] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c114.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.114]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB54vwZ0037866; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:57:58 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YhwPsckNtp7QHW/10AQ5gqGruHMzj0w9WZKI255HL5ER32wZjcILXnhuDptoDiN0 Message-ID: <47562FD5.7000303@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:57:57 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 6e922792024732fb1bb6f346e63517e4 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org For compatibility, I'm for #2. Like Frank, I'd prefer #1, but would prefer to preserve the ABNF for compatibility purposes. And #2 appears to be a lot like what we have in draft-10, save that we could remove a lot of the normative gunk about extlang. Addison Mark Davis wrote: > It doesn't cause a problem. Any existing tag that does not match the new > ABNF was, in fact, invalid under RFC 4646. > > (The ABNF is the "convex hull" of the definition of valid language tags; > all valid language tags must follow the ABNF, but the vast majority of > strings that do fit the ABNF are not valid language tags.) > > As far as I can see, we have the following alternatives: > > 1. Remove extlang from the ABNF. > 2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is "permanently > reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO). > 3. Leave extlang in the ABNF, and just leave in the documentation > from RFC 4646 that it is not used in the current version. > > Here is my take. > > * #1 is the cleanest (for reasons given earlier). > * #2 is functionally identical to #1, but may feel warmer and > fuzzier to some people. > * #3 we could live with, although it would be slightly suboptimal. > > Mark > > On Dec 4, 2007 7:36 PM, Mark Davis < mark.davis@icu-project.org > > wrote: > > Sorry; didn't mean to imply that. I meant that I agree with your > discussion of why removing them is not an formal problem. > > While I agree that we don't have to remove the syntax, removing them > would be more than a nicety: it makes the syntax checking > significantly simpler, as well as simplifying any APIs that are used > with language tags. > > Mark > > > On Dec 4, 2007 7:30 PM, John Cowan > wrote: > > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > I agree completely with John. There are no possible current > *valid* tags > > that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left > open for the > > future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to > existing data or > > code. > > As I said, I don't favor removing them -- there is no gain from > doing so > except a theoretical nicety. > > -- > Well, I have news for our current leaders John Cowan > and the leaders of tomorrow: the Bill of cowan@ccil.org > > Rights is not a frivolous luxury, in force > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > only during times of peace and prosperity. > We don't just push it to the side when the going gets tough. > --Molly Ivins > > > > > -- > Mark > > > > > -- > Mark > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 00:21:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmhV-0003Mv-H8; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:21:37 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmhV-0003LN-3w for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:21:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmhU-0003Ir-OG for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:21:36 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmhU-0007OL-E7 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:21:36 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071205052135.GSVV55.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:21:35 -0500 Message-ID: <004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com> <47562F67.6060905@yahoo-inc.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:21:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > There is already a note in 4646bis about Macrolanguage. Perhaps take a > look at it and comment directly on the text? I assume this means the three paragraphs near the bottom of Section 4.1. I think this text is really the best we can do to capture the intent of the WG. Anything more specific will raise more questions than it answers. I'm opposed to spending time on a revision of RFC 4647, since we expect everyone to ignore it anyway and stick with remove-from-right. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 00:29:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmoe-00066q-UF; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:29:00 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmoe-00066K-CG for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:29:00 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmoe-00065I-29 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:29:00 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmod-0007Ys-7K for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:29:00 -0500 Received: from [10.72.77.114] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c114.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.114]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB55Ssc8074491 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:28:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject: content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=N1bgF586fYTKF7XAaZQ6dyF6Kwxh+8xJCzVtB/ZsWBmfA/WhPV4y9FwcXysOUwbH Message-ID: <47563715.9020501@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:28:53 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Subject: [Ltru] draft-10 on its way with more modifications... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org All, I'm submitting draft-10 in just a few minutes. The draft is already posted on Inter-Locale. In this version, I have incorporated additional edits to do away with extlang, adjusted the text related to maximum lengths, implemented Mark's Option #2, removed all normative text controlling registration of extlangs (other than a prohibition on their use), and inserted a paragraph describing what they used to be for. All of this, of course, is editorial whimsy subject to the consensus of the WG. However, on the theory that actual text is easier and more fruitful to discuss than general observation, I've made the edits and sent them on their way. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 00:29:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmpL-0006jP-R6; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:29:43 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmpK-0006hD-Ge for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:29:42 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmpK-0006fx-6E for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:29:42 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.178]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmpJ-0007aD-3u for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:29:42 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so6965445wah for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:29:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=vvqzms6JOTyljP7v4QyODcQvrZ0ZnMYViwL/7D8mq98=; b=pMijzJTw/1rmLDRP5KWZMRTbZ2s6ek1JgtNSL7+DO8iCb4IvtEXUNWTCdhCkAjMjm7rZh899nVEXzuecsnz135x3HhOCa/FnHHXv89PMBL4KVUu2sUs7K27SX+/bDSm5eSAmfrNWr/FB19krJ/Urrc3itXuotZoAkT8hGgl3BoI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Q5FGisihc724GQPbsEddtnEjguzF7+/TL0k5IWiAcWUm4U/F/uHsPi64s/bQwa1EMTBdD5ePOw9dE/NScJyHlzzGsL1cW7+4NkgZgZdZEFFFxrsnCE+4hNchXSvhRNJ7qaVklJMqhEs4TmzvrMu8K6JICPNC+ZGKNNAA4GaDwAw= Received: by 10.114.76.1 with SMTP id y1mr1706942waa.1196832579997; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:29:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712042129l414a033fj558fb777ad23b8e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:29:39 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <47562FD5.7000303@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <47562FD5.7000303@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 647e53d6f71415ad X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2ed806e2f53ff1a061ad4f97e00345ac Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1742608990==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1742608990== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_810_30008330.1196832579992" ------=_Part_810_30008330.1196832579992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm good with that. On Dec 4, 2007 8:57 PM, Addison Phillips wrote: > For compatibility, I'm for #2. Like Frank, I'd prefer #1, but would > prefer to preserve the ABNF for compatibility purposes. And #2 appears > to be a lot like what we have in draft-10, save that we could remove a > lot of the normative gunk about extlang. > > Addison > > Mark Davis wrote: > > It doesn't cause a problem. Any existing tag that does not match the new > > ABNF was, in fact, invalid under RFC 4646. > > > > (The ABNF is the "convex hull" of the definition of valid language tags; > > all valid language tags must follow the ABNF, but the vast majority of > > strings that do fit the ABNF are not valid language tags.) > > > > As far as I can see, we have the following alternatives: > > > > 1. Remove extlang from the ABNF. > > 2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is "permanently > > reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO). > > 3. Leave extlang in the ABNF, and just leave in the documentation > > from RFC 4646 that it is not used in the current version. > > > > Here is my take. > > > > * #1 is the cleanest (for reasons given earlier). > > * #2 is functionally identical to #1, but may feel warmer and > > fuzzier to some people. > > * #3 we could live with, although it would be slightly suboptimal. > > > > Mark > > > > On Dec 4, 2007 7:36 PM, Mark Davis < mark.davis@icu-project.org > > > wrote: > > > > Sorry; didn't mean to imply that. I meant that I agree with your > > discussion of why removing them is not an formal problem. > > > > While I agree that we don't have to remove the syntax, removing them > > would be more than a nicety: it makes the syntax checking > > significantly simpler, as well as simplifying any APIs that are used > > with language tags. > > > > Mark > > > > > > On Dec 4, 2007 7:30 PM, John Cowan > > wrote: > > > > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > > > I agree completely with John. There are no possible current > > *valid* tags > > > that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left > > open for the > > > future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to > > existing data or > > > code. > > > > As I said, I don't favor removing them -- there is no gain from > > doing so > > except a theoretical nicety. > > > > -- > > Well, I have news for our current leaders John Cowan > > and the leaders of tomorrow: the Bill of cowan@ccil.org > > > > Rights is not a frivolous luxury, in force > > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan < > http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan> > > only during times of peace and prosperity. > > We don't just push it to the side when the going gets tough. > > --Molly Ivins > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mark > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > -- Mark ------=_Part_810_30008330.1196832579992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm good with that.

On Dec 4, 2007 8:57 PM, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
For compatibility, I'm for #2. Like Frank, I'd prefer #1, but would
prefer to preserve the ABNF for compatibility purposes. And #2 appears
to be a lot like what we have in draft-10, save that we could remove a
lot of the normative gunk about extlang.

Addison

Mark Davis wrote:
> It doesn't cause a problem. Any existing tag that does not match the new
> ABNF was, in fact, invalid under RFC 4646.
>
> (The ABNF is the "convex hull" of the definition of valid language tags;
> all valid language tags must follow the ABNF, but the vast majority of
> strings that do fit the ABNF are not valid language tags.)
>
> As far as I can see, we have the following alternatives:
>
>    1. Remove extlang from the ABNF.
>    2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is "permanently
>       reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO).
>    3. Leave extlang in the ABNF, and just leave in the documentation
>       from RFC 4646 that it is not used in the current version.
>
> Here is my take.
>
>     * #1 is the cleanest (for reasons given earlier).
>     * #2 is functionally identical to #1, but may feel warmer and
>       fuzzier to some people.
>     * #3 we could live with, although it would be slightly suboptimal.
>
> Mark
>
> On Dec 4, 2007 7:36 PM, Mark Davis < mark.davis@icu-project.org
> <mailto: mark.davis@icu-project.org>> wrote:
>
>     Sorry; didn't mean to imply that. I meant that I agree with your
>     discussion of why removing them is not an formal problem.
>
>     While I agree that we don't have to remove the syntax, removing them
>     would be more than a nicety: it makes the syntax checking
>     significantly simpler, as well as simplifying any APIs that are used
>     with language tags.
>
>     Mark
>
>
>     On Dec 4, 2007 7:30 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org
>     <mailto:cowan@ccil.org>> wrote:
>
>         Mark Davis scripsit:
>
>          > I agree completely with John. There are no possible current
>         *valid* tags
>          > that use extlang -- it was only a possibility that we left
>         open for the
>          > future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to
>         existing data or
>          > code.
>
>         As I said, I don't favor removing them -- there is no gain from
>         doing so
>         except a theoretical nicety.
>
>         --
>         Well, I have news for our current leaders       John Cowan
>         and the leaders of tomorrow: the Bill of         cowan@ccil.org
>         <mailto:cowan@ccil.org>
>         Rights is not a frivolous luxury, in force
>         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan <http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan>
>         only during times of peace and prosperity.
>         We don't just push it to the side when the going gets tough.
>          --Molly Ivins
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.



--
Mark ------=_Part_810_30008330.1196832579992-- --===============1742608990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1742608990==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 00:31:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmqp-0000pL-UQ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:31:15 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmqo-0000kM-NP for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:31:14 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmqo-0000iX-Bt for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:31:14 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.181]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmqn-0007d2-GC for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:31:14 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so9619925wah for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:31:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=e87KdRxtbCCflw/0nt+Z2L+4lMfF8cvG5e8MMfEulFg=; b=ASJO8RqA3VspioKnAarofBGCV+5UoKxEULJu26iXWjI3b3XLrSnwaPQpuIc2fMXkyODSywHmJsDZ7t6Vuvqq1NkIS2mNJW2KGLVCM5/hzbtf/cXHwKDbYV0cve1GQ6RJArt8LEA2O2qBjcHn82G1PU8MToAXbxHUojHQvJXuQwU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Wf8XhwNUtP1T1m1inTmjwX65b8/ticHhEF5MgMtlBzr0DKSSKgR+nzwxuiGf/GF+OPL6CZW0unQSWsIkJK0aIF3f4VelIynvRsHH3fhXjUKcN8YEKlQdo5TgYuYoFIeAjsm1yqI8YkUnbGXX3hUKL5iYiAgzi0C0XSXw4JtKZ7g= Received: by 10.114.153.18 with SMTP id a18mr1734468wae.1196832672815; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:31:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712042131m3c20a8c3ibd0fcaa1bceab60c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:31:12 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Martin Duerst" Subject: Re: [Ltru] no teleconference this week In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071205094046.06e2bec0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20071205094046.06e2bec0@localhost> X-Google-Sender-Auth: aa8a2c566d8359b0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1641637046==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1641637046== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_817_26132189.1196832672810" ------=_Part_817_26132189.1196832672810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Based on your message, I'll assume we aren't meeting this week (and perhaps can just cancel the meeting). Mark On Dec 4, 2007 4:49 PM, Martin Duerst wrote: > I received an announcement from some calendar system for an LTRU > teleconference this week. However, it's my understanding that > we have reached a resolution on our main point of contention and > that currently, no further teleconference is needed. > > Regards, Martin. > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_817_26132189.1196832672810 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Based on your message, I'll assume we aren't meeting this week (and perhaps can just cancel the meeting).

Mark

On Dec 4, 2007 4:49 PM, Martin Duerst < duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
I received an announcement from some calendar system for an LTRU
teleconference this week. However, it's my understanding that
we have reached a resolution on our main point of contention and
that currently, no further teleconference is needed.

Regards,   Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp



_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_817_26132189.1196832672810-- --===============1641637046== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1641637046==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 00:34:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmu9-0006L0-1b; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:34:41 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmu8-0006KI-Mj for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:34:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmu8-0006K8-D9 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:34:40 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izmu7-0007j5-VY for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:34:40 -0500 Received: from [10.72.77.114] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c114.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.114]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB55YPpE074740; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:34:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=q2AgMHUFW8Zn2B7iqqOno6Q4Op6XzCnB3dNk3b0auc0NU6k0Rx5sOWSeZm4XwrwY Message-ID: <47563861.7010701@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:34:25 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week References: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com> <47562F67.6060905@yahoo-inc.com> <004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Addison Phillips wrote: > >> There is already a note in 4646bis about Macrolanguage. Perhaps take a >> look at it and comment directly on the text? > > I assume this means the three paragraphs near the bottom of Section 4.1. > I think this text is really the best we can do to capture the intent of > the WG. Anything more specific will raise more questions than it answers. Exactly so. I think this is best. > > I'm opposed to spending time on a revision of RFC 4647, since we expect > everyone to ignore it anyway and stick with remove-from-right. I'm completely mystified by this statement, which you've made several times already. I don't at all expect that 4647 will be ignored. Quite the contrary. However, "remove-from-right" *is* the heart of the algorithms described in that document. Removal of extlang means we don't have to modify the actual algorithms to do other than RFR. Or did I miss something? It might be nice to revise 4647 to specifically deal with Macrolanguage information and the like. However, I think we can have tutorials or text published on the general problem of language negotiation separately (I certainly intend to help revise the one at W3C!) and this will allow us to finish this work sooner rather than later. Since the algorithms are unaffected by the editorial changes suggested, I would think we could deal with Macrolanguage in the section in 4646bis on tag/range choice as a suitable workaround. Best Regards, Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 00:37:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmwT-0002VK-WD; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:37:06 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmwS-0002VB-71 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:37:04 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmwR-0002Um-GM; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:37:03 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzmwF-0002zN-6T; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:37:03 -0500 Received: from [10.72.77.114] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c114.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.114]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB55aSxH074813; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:36:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:content-type; b=m+7sp2RDFeRXqInEZgOrG3vsziI6bNEHlzkNwA2izXM9As9iE6OxZt3Ssc5ZgjHp Message-ID: <475638DC.7070702@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:36:28 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: internet-drafts@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050801050903010607040109" X-Spam-Score: -14.7 (--------------) X-Scan-Signature: e56b1af8616cd42fe02f1880a5c36940 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10: submission X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050801050903010607040109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Editors, Please find attached draft-10 of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis in the usual text format. Best Regards, Addison (for the editors) -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. 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_______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --------------050801050903010607040109-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 00:51:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IznAP-0006k3-Ay; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:51:29 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IznAP-0006jR-0q for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:51:29 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IznAO-0006i2-MJ for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:51:28 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.180]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IznAO-00086V-1F for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:51:28 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so9637823wah for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:51:27 -0800 (PST) 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Message-ID: <30b660a20712042151j1853467fye8b0a9d098d71d2a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:51:26 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week In-Reply-To: <47563861.7010701@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com> <47562F67.6060905@yahoo-inc.com> <004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <47563861.7010701@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 39009ee2c22eb20b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0328337260==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0328337260== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_868_1011302.1196833886805" ------=_Part_868_1011302.1196833886805 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Fine by me. On Dec 4, 2007 9:34 PM, Addison Phillips wrote: > Doug Ewell wrote: > > Addison Phillips wrote: > > > >> There is already a note in 4646bis about Macrolanguage. Perhaps take a > >> look at it and comment directly on the text? > > > > I assume this means the three paragraphs near the bottom of Section 4.1. > > I think this text is really the best we can do to capture the intent of > > the WG. Anything more specific will raise more questions than it > answers. > > Exactly so. I think this is best. > > > > > I'm opposed to spending time on a revision of RFC 4647, since we expect > > everyone to ignore it anyway and stick with remove-from-right. > > I'm completely mystified by this statement, which you've made several > times already. I don't at all expect that 4647 will be ignored. Quite > the contrary. However, "remove-from-right" *is* the heart of the > algorithms described in that document. Removal of extlang means we don't > have to modify the actual algorithms to do other than RFR. Or did I miss > something? > > It might be nice to revise 4647 to specifically deal with Macrolanguage > information and the like. However, I think we can have tutorials or text > published on the general problem of language negotiation separately (I > certainly intend to help revise the one at W3C!) and this will allow us > to finish this work sooner rather than later. Since the algorithms are > unaffected by the editorial changes suggested, I would think we could > deal with Macrolanguage in the section in 4646bis on tag/range choice as > a suitable workaround. > > Best Regards, > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > -- Mark ------=_Part_868_1011302.1196833886805 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Fine by me.

On Dec 4, 2007 9:34 PM, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
Doug Ewell wrote:
> Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:
>
>> There is already a note in 4646bis about Macrolanguage. Perhaps take a
>> look at it and comment directly on the text?
>
> I assume this means the three paragraphs near the bottom of Section 4.1.
> I think this text is really the best we can do to capture the intent of
> the WG.  Anything more specific will raise more questions than it answers.

Exactly so. I think this is best.

>
> I'm opposed to spending time on a revision of RFC 4647, since we expect
> everyone to ignore it anyway and stick with remove-from-right.

I'm completely mystified by this statement, which you've made several
times already. I don't at all expect that 4647 will be ignored. Quite
the contrary. However, "remove-from-right" *is* the heart of the
algorithms described in that document. Removal of extlang means we don't
have to modify the actual algorithms to do other than RFR. Or did I miss
something?

It might be nice to revise 4647 to specifically deal with Macrolanguage
information and the like. However, I think we can have tutorials or text
published on the general problem of language negotiation separately (I
certainly intend to help revise the one at W3C!) and this will allow us
to finish this work sooner rather than later. Since the algorithms are
unaffected by the editorial changes suggested, I would think we could
deal with Macrolanguage in the section in 4646bis on tag/range choice as
a suitable workaround.

Best Regards,

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.



--
Mark ------=_Part_868_1011302.1196833886805-- --===============0328337260== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0328337260==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 01:54:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izo9W-00063l-4E; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:54:38 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izo9V-00061F-GV for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:54:37 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izo9V-00060N-34 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:54:37 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izo9U-0004t7-I8 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:54:36 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071205065436.OCNL55.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 01:54:36 -0500 Message-ID: <005a01c8370b$b29498f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com> <47562F67.6060905@yahoo-inc.com> <004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <47563861.7010701@yahoo-inc.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:54:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: >> I'm opposed to spending time on a revision of RFC 4647, since we >> expect everyone to ignore it anyway and stick with remove-from-right. > > I'm completely mystified by this statement, which you've made several > times already. I don't at all expect that 4647 will be ignored. Quite > the contrary. However, "remove-from-right" *is* the heart of the > algorithms described in that document. Removal of extlang means we > don't have to modify the actual algorithms to do other than RFR. Or > did I miss something? Remove-from-right is, indeed, the essence of basic filtering and basic lookup. However, if RFR were all there was to it, we wouldn't have bothered creating a separate matching document that wasn't on the original LTRU 1.0 charter. We would have covered matching within 4646, just as Harald did in 1766 and 3066. But with the advent of script subtags, and the expectation of ISO 639-3-based extlangs, we felt something more was needed. John Cowan came up with the idea of "scored matching," which disassembled the tag and assigned point values to individual subtags, and this led to extended filtering, in which wildcard asterisks take the place of optional subtags. These algorithms are *not* primarily based on RFR; they allow for possibilities like "hi-Deva-IN" matching "hi-IN", and they would have provided additional flexibility in matching "zh-yue" with "zh". However, during the recent extlang debate, almost the entire focus was on whether extlangs would behave well in the presence of basic filtering and basic lookup. Even John Cowan, in throwing in the towel, emphasized this: "The strongest argument against extlang tags is that our simple remove-from-right lookup algorithm ends up losing too much information. If you ask for 'zh-yue-Hant', and there are no Cantonese resources, then by the time you have truncated the tag to just 'zh' you have forgotten that Traditional Han script was required." Not necessarily if you use extended filtering. "In order to prevent it, we would have to change 4647 to specify a sequence like zh-yue-Hant > zh-yue > zh-Hant > zh, where the extlang tag is treated magically; in essence, stripping it restores all other tags." The way I read 4647, section 3.3.2, extended filtering would give you two options: - "zh-*-Hant" would yield zh-yue-Hant > zh-Hant > zh - "zh-yue-*" would yield zh-yue-Hant > zh-yue > zh Which one you choose would depend on whether "Cantonese" or "Traditional Han" is more important to you. This is no different from requesting "sr-Latn-ME" with the understanding that, if this exact combination is not available, a choice must be made as to whether "Latin script" or "Montenegro usage" is more important. "That would be fine, except that no one actually does it or is likely to for some time to come." And that is the crux: we don't expect people to take advantage of the advanced features of RFC 4647. Meanwhile, the basic features of 4647 are little changed from (though much better explained than) what we had in 3066. Thus my claim that, by expecting people to stick with blind RFR, we are expecting them to ignore 4647. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 03:44:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzpsF-0005xh-3o; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:44:55 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzpsE-0005xa-18 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:44:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzpsD-0005xS-KB for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:44:53 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzpsC-0004jt-B0 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:44:53 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:44:51 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.111]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:44:51 -0800 From: Shawn Steele To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:44:22 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week Thread-Index: Acg2/sOmdJq0Bbu3Sj2s7tSmrzzNZAAHEMdb Message-ID: References: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com> <47562F67.6060905@yahoo-inc.com>, <004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > I'm opposed to spending time on a revision of RFC 4647, since we expect > everyone to ignore it anyway and stick with remove-from-right. If we expect people/systems to correlate cmn-HK and zh-HK, which seems some= what useful to me, then I don't think we can stick with remove-from-right. I can't change the OS's UI language to cmn-HK if the legacy apps are all ta= gged with zh-HK resources. OTOH, if I want to encourage good behavior, the= n I have to change the UI language. I can't expect everything to be rebuil= t though, so I need to make the correlation somehow (which is why I like zh= -cmn-HK :)) - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 03:50:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzpxA-00052e-Ha; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:50:00 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izpx9-00052J-28 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:49:59 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izpx8-00052B-Np for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:49:58 -0500 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izpx8-0000C1-Eu for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:49:58 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:49:20 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.117]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:49:57 -0800 From: Shawn Steele To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:49:02 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] RFR - RFC4647 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] RFR - RFC4647 Thread-Index: AQHINxvP/mHTtEJPbECW4Y5qIDvalQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Thus my claim that, by expecting people to stick with blind > RFR, we are expecting them to ignore 4647. I agree completely. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 05:35:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izrak-0000lX-L7; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:34:58 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izraj-0000ki-Kw for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:34:57 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izrai-0000eE-T3 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:34:56 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izrag-0003zJ-6a for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:34:54 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lB5AYnKk008604 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 19:34:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 5dc9_b482f99e_a31d_11dc_8dfa_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:34:48 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:55804) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 19:30:51 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071205170507.06e3d900@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:08:21 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] no teleconference this week In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712042131m3c20a8c3ibd0fcaa1bceab60c@mail.gmail.co m> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20071205094046.06e2bec0@localhost> <30b660a20712042131m3c20a8c3ibd0fcaa1bceab60c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 14:31 07/12/05, Mark Davis wrote: >Based on your message, I'll assume we aren't meeting this week (and perhaps can just cancel the meeting). Yes, exactly. I don't envision any teleconferences in the near future, and if it should turn out that we need another one, my assumption is that we will need to re-negotiate the schedule based on the players involved. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 05:35:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izrak-0000l7-ID; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:34:58 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izraj-0000kj-Kv for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:34:57 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izrai-0000eM-T3 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:34:56 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izrag-0003zK-6d for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:34:54 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lB5AYlfA008587 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 19:34:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 5d8a_b3a7a6d2_a31d_11dc_915b_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:34:47 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:55804) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 19:30:49 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071205144437.06e32a90@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:51:45 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] no teleconference this week In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712041854n243fe259k9390c5cc315cc6a7@mail.gmail.co m> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20071205094046.06e2bec0@localhost> <30b660a20712041854n243fe259k9390c5cc315cc6a7@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 11:54 07/12/05, Mark Davis wrote: >We can close the telecon down, if we don't think that it would be useful in clarifying and finishing off the remaining items. It is not a question of whether a teleconfernce would be useful or not. The IETF's main way of working is the WG's mailing list, plus occasional meetings (e.g. this week in Vancouver). We used some teleconferences because we didn't see any other way to come to consensus on one specific point (extlang or not). For any other issues, we will first try to work them out on the mailing list, and only if we can't make progress anymore, we may use some teleconference(s) again. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 06:52:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzsnK-0005LJ-0A; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 06:52:02 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzsnJ-0005Kw-55 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 06:52:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzsnI-0005Ko-Ot for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 06:52:00 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzsnG-0002rj-E8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 06:52:00 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izsn4-00062c-NP for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:51:46 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:51:46 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:51:46 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:47:56 +0100 Lines: 91 Message-ID: References: <002f01c836fa$f5aae240$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Frank's comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: =20 > This is still Latin. I'm not sure if that actually is MES-1, let's assume it's not, then we = have two definitions of "Latin" by two participants, with an optional third = based on TUS 5.0 tables. That's why I asked, "Latin" needs to be defined. =20 E.g. the expert reviewer will think fonipa is perfect (guess, we can ask Michael), while I'd think that anything not working on a box supporting windows-1252 (among others) doesn't really help. > But one of the fields for a given subtag has to be in the Latin = script. I don't exactly see why that "has to be", especially when "Latin" isn't clearly defined. I've no idea what the box where I write this actually supports (the Cyril description was okay). >> You hit an example that I can read, therefore I recall that the = review >> list managed this registration without a new MUST. =20 > Rules are better than relying on enlightened statesmen. Just because 4646bis will say that he must read the rules doesn't guarantee that he'll do it. I could understand a SHOULD here, the most disturbing part is the "MUST". >> IIRC we discussed cases of splits later re-uniting again for RFC = 4646, >> e.g. a new incarnation of YU, or CS. And I thought that we made sure >> that this will work as everybody would expect it. =20 > As I said, I think this issue deserves serious discussion. I don't = recall it > being discussed before. Maybe we discussed the opposite, a union splitting again (DE breaking up into "DE3" and DD again, recycling DD should be a no-brainer. It's ugly that DE3 is a proper subset of DE2 in this case, on the other hand DE3 =3D=3D DE1 as it was before the union. All theoretical, of = course... :-) >> The "most perverse tag" has two variants. With fonipa or fonupa it's >> in theory three, or even four if a pervert manages to use fonipa and >> fonupa simultaneously. =20 > Tag content wisely. Picking fonipa when it really is fonipa would be wise. And if it's = about one of those Slovenian dialects you could arrive at three variants. > How would one define "de-DE-north" and "de-DE-south"? If it's Bajuvarian using "south" if nothing better is available would be tempting, I'm not arguing against generic variants because they are anyway never usable. =20 > IPA and UPA are a completely different matter. It is very clear when=20 > a non-trivial passage of text is written in IPA. Likely I couldn't tell what's what, and would claim that whatever it is, it's not proper Latin. Somebody with a clue could decide that that's bad enough to justify an explicit "Latn" subtag in addition to "fonipa". >> With a MUST NOT for generic variants folks might manage it. If more >> cases like fonipa + fonupa are identified maybe it will result in the >> first extension. Arguably better than more generic variants, each >> extension can have its own rules. It's hard to decide if 1996 and >> fonupa in the same tag could make sense or not, and what the best >> order should be. =20 > Don't forget, I argued for extensions for the IPA/UPA case. Yeah, but writing an RFC isn't *that* easy, even if it's only about two transliteration schemes. Possibly more with a IANA registry, that's why it's not trivial. > The reaction was clear, from both the LTRU and ietf-languages lists: > nobody wanted to see extensions used for this. That's not how I recall it, *some* wanted no extension saying that it confuses matching more than variants. Most others simply didn't volunteer to write a draft for an extension RFC while other solutions like bothering ISO or registering generic variants exist(ed). Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 10:43:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzwPV-0001cr-5j; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:43:41 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzwPT-0001cQ-Cx for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:43:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzwPT-0001c4-39 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:43:39 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzwPQ-0004t6-Mf for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:43:38 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071205154336.FWWV19654.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 10:43:36 -0500 Message-ID: <012701c83755$994cbc70$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 07:43:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Frank's comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > I'm not sure if that actually is MES-1, let's assume it's not, then we > have two definitions of "Latin" by two participants, with an optional > third based on TUS 5.0 tables. That's why I asked, "Latin" needs to > be defined. MES-1 is completely irrelevant to me from the standpoint of deciding whether a letter is in the Latin script. U+0114 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH BREVE is not in MES-1. Neither are most of the Vietnamese Latin letters with hook and horn and what not. > E.g. the expert reviewer will think fonipa is perfect (guess, we can > ask Michael), while I'd think that anything not working on a box > supporting windows-1252 (among others) doesn't really help. How about this: I will put together a brief analysis of the letters used in Description fields in the proposed 4645bis Registry, which is coming soon now that Addison has submitted draft-4646bis-10, and we can talk about whether those all meet the "Latin" requirement as each of us understands it. Then, we can talk about where to draw the line. I can tell you that two of the new language subtags are "Ardhamāgadhī Prākrit" and "Māhārāṣṭri Prākrit". Not all of those letters with macron or dot below will display on a Windows 95 box. >> As I said, I think this issue [un-deprecation] deserves serious >> discussion. I don't recall it being discussed before. > > Maybe we discussed the opposite, a union splitting again (DE breaking > up into "DE3" and DD again, recycling DD should be a no-brainer. It's > ugly that DE3 is a proper subset of DE2 in this case, on the other > hand DE3 == DE1 as it was before the union. All theoretical, of > course... :-) To play devil's advocate: WG members, what are the disadvantages of allowing a deprecated subtag to become un-deprecated, if it is resurrected in the underlying ISO standard? > Picking fonipa when it really is fonipa would be wise. And if it's > about one of those Slovenian dialects you could arrive at three > variants. Yes, you could. And it's easy to imagine exactly that scenario; Dr. Steenwijk might want to use IPA to demonstrate how Lipovaz Resian is pronounced. So... where is the problem? >> Don't forget, I argued for extensions for the IPA/UPA case. > > Yeah, but writing an RFC isn't *that* easy, even if it's only about > two transliteration schemes. Possibly more with a IANA registry, > that's why it's not trivial. I think the requirement to host and moderate a mailing list is another major hurdle to extensions. >> The reaction was clear, from both the LTRU and ietf-languages lists: >> nobody wanted to see extensions used for this. > > That's not how I recall it, *some* wanted no extension saying that it > confuses matching more than variants. Most others simply didn't > volunteer to write a draft for an extension RFC while other solutions > like bothering ISO or registering generic variants exist(ed). I would have gladly written the RFC, though I think the mailing list would have been out of my reach. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 12:09:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzxkU-0004ip-TJ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:09:26 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzxkT-0004Wv-JX for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:09:25 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzxkT-0004Ru-4T for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:09:25 -0500 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzxkS-0005j7-Os for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:09:25 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:09:24 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:09:24 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:09:13 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg27zz4W7m/0WXjRJu0LG3ucbNl+AAcfozQ Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > > future. By removing extlang, we do no damage at all to existing data > or > > code. > > As I said, I don't favor removing them -- there is no gain from doing > so > except a theoretical nicety. The potential gain would be making it easier to grok and implement the synt= ax and explain it to others. It may (or may not) be that comments in the AB= NF statement clearly indicating deprecation may allow that. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 12:20:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izxui-0006Y6-Mv; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:20:00 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izxuh-0006Xv-SW for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:19:59 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izxuh-0006Xl-It for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:19:59 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izxuf-0006ps-2l for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:19:59 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:19:18 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:19:55 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:19:43 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg28ekwtnvXlt+7Q4SCbB3egfYFMgAb+OQg Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 03fb21b15d5177c512a4caa19876f30a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2135279810==" Errors-To: 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L286cD48L3A+DQoNCjwvZGl2Pg0KDQo8L2Rpdj4NCg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KDQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579561E4CB3EF3NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============2135279810== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2135279810==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 12:20:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzxvZ-0007K3-Nu; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:20:53 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzxvY-0007IS-H8 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:20:52 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzxvY-0007IE-6a for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:20:52 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzxvW-0006vQ-8f for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:20:52 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzxVF-0005Vb-9U for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:53:41 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.52]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:53:41 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:53:41 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 17:06:08 +0100 Organization: Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <47561C1C.9040307@w3.org> <47562F2D.4050000@w3.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Felix Sasaki wrote: > Maybe you are not aware of the situation that language tags are nearly = > the only IETF spec where W3C uses a BCP reference, or before that an=20 > "RFC XXX or its successor" reference - in difference to IRI, btw . Yes, some including me proposed standards track for 4646, but the rough consensus was BCP :-( You use 2119 (BCP 14) quite often in W3C spec.s, but that's no moving target. Unlike RFC 4646, were "moving target" was predictable at least for extlang: | reserved for future standardization, anticipating work that is | currently under way on ISO 639. [...] | Their syntax is described here so that implementations can be | compatible with any future revision of this document that does | provide for their registration. [...] | "zh-gan" (registered under RFC 3066) might become a valid non- | grandfathered (that is, redundant) tag in which the subtag=20 | 'gan' might represent the Chinese dialect 'Gan'. Note "might", it's not "shall". We weren't sure, and the reasons to drop "extlang" are rather complex (e.g. 639-3 is more volatile than expected with its macrolanguages at the moment, not good for a "stable forver" registry). I still don't see the harm if an implementation based on RFC 4646 identifies a bogus (non-existing) tag as "well-formed", where a=20 4646bis implementation would see "not well-formed" with the clean ABNF proposal. And both editors would apparently prefer "clean". > You might say you don't care about this status And I did, see above, 4646bis could be a nice "draft standard" soon. Dropping unused features in a DS is perfectly okay. It's also okay in a BCP, but apparently you tjink it's not. > reading Ira's mail, it seems other people are in a similar=20 > situation. I'm not sure in what situation she would be with a simpler ABNF, she used to be a "KISS" fan. I've no idea what a printer could do with a "well-formed" 4646 extlang tag when no extlangs exist. > Regarding the change of "irregular", this seems to me much=20 > easier to sell to people than deleting the extlang production. In -10 it's still "extlang =3D [...] permanently reserved", in -11 it might be "unused =3D [...] permanently unused". Only to keep constructs well-formed that permanently won't exist. Some folks were less timid while introducing IPv6 literals in URLs, and W3C documents use all kinds of mixtures, pure 2396, 2396 as amended by ????, and the real thing, STD 66 (3986). =20 After all "RFC" still stands for "request for comment", even BCPs change (RFC 3066 was BCP 47 before, RFC 1766 was a proper PS). Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 12:24:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izxz9-0000zX-JM; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:24:35 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izxz8-0000zO-MN for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:24:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izxz8-0000z6-Ca for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:24:34 -0500 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izxz8-0007I4-4j for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:24:34 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.113) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:23:55 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.113]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:24:33 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:24:26 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg2+R0qSWsBBm3ATHOx7LOnY4WU0AAajy8A Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org] > >> 2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is > "permanently > >> reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO). > >> > > > > I favor this. > > > me too. "Permanently reserved" is not strong enough, IMO. It must be clear that ext= lang is *permanently dead*. I think #1 makes that clearer, but I'd accept a= variation of #2 that left no doubt. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 12:36:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyAH-0007sh-VA; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:36:05 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyAG-0007sK-E6 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:36:04 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyAG-0007s8-3z for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:36:04 -0500 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyAF-0004FP-Ph for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:36:04 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:36:03 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.186]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:36:03 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:35:56 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] RFR - RFC4647 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] RFR - RFC4647 Thread-Index: AQHINxvP/mHTtEJPbECW4Y5qIDvalYzeW/NQ Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison expressed a concern at delaying 4646bis. It is an option to complet= e 4646bis and the re-charter to update 4647. (It also seems to me some chan= ges to 4647 might be useful.) Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 12:49 AM > To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] RFR - RFC4647 > > > Thus my claim that, by expecting people to stick with blind > > RFR, we are expecting them to ignore 4647. > > I agree completely. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 12:48:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyMJ-0004u0-Pz; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:48:31 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyMI-0004tn-QX for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:48:30 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyMI-0004td-Gz for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:48:30 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyMG-0001Qp-ET for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:48:30 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABBD52BC28; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 02:48:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ldJC8u1yBGf; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 02:48:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p3080-ipad508marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.148.90.80]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7569A2BC1E; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 02:48:24 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <4756E463.9070809@w3.org> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 02:48:19 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <47561C1C.9040307@w3.org> <47562F2D.4050000@w3.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > Felix Sasaki wrote: > > >> Maybe you are not aware of the situation that language tags are nearly >> the only IETF spec where W3C uses a BCP reference, or before that an >> "RFC XXX or its successor" reference - in difference to IRI, btw . >> > > Yes, some including me proposed standards track for 4646, but the > rough consensus was BCP :-( You use 2119 (BCP 14) quite often in W3C > spec.s, but that's no moving target. Unlike RFC 4646, were "moving > target" was predictable at least for extlang: > > | reserved for future standardization, anticipating work that is > | currently under way on ISO 639. > [...] > | Their syntax is described here so that implementations can be > | compatible with any future revision of this document that does > | provide for their registration. > [...] > | "zh-gan" (registered under RFC 3066) might become a valid non- > | grandfathered (that is, redundant) tag in which the subtag > | 'gan' might represent the Chinese dialect 'Gan'. > > Note "might", it's not "shall". We weren't sure, and the reasons > to drop "extlang" are rather complex (e.g. 639-3 is more volatile > than expected with its macrolanguages at the moment, not good for > a "stable forver" registry). > > I still don't see the harm if an implementation based on RFC 4646 > identifies a bogus (non-existing) tag as "well-formed", where a > 4646bis implementation would see "not well-formed" with the clean > ABNF proposal. And both editors would apparently prefer "clean". > > >> You might say you don't care about this status >> > > And I did, see above, 4646bis could be a nice "draft standard" > soon. Dropping unused features in a DS is perfectly okay. It's > also okay in a BCP, but apparently you tjink it's not. > exactly - or rather specs citing BCP 47. That's my whole point - the danger that specs writers might look at the dropped extlang and say "they are dropping features between versions of BCP 47, so we better refer to an RFC *only* and even leave 'or its successor' out". If they would have done that already, we would have many "dead references" to RFC 4646 . Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 12:56:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyUD-00059I-IP; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:56:41 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyUC-0004v9-9O for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:56:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyUB-0004qt-R3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:56:39 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyUB-0002KK-64 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:56:39 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327492BC28; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 02:56:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wuIxgnEbyAeF; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 02:56:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p3080-ipad508marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.148.90.80]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 014462BC1E; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 02:56:37 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <4756E651.5010804@w3.org> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 02:56:33 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > > I think #3 would be more than just slightly sub-optimal. Many people=20 > would look just at the statement of the ABNF and go away and do things=20 > on that basis. The statement of the ABNF should somehow indicate=20 > clearly that extlang is DEAD, never to be resurrected. > > =20 > > We need to be clear about the decision we=E2=80=99re making: we are dec= iding=20 > to abandon extlang **permanently**. Removing extlang from the ABNF=20 > will leave something that is more-certainly stable in that particular=20 > regard. Of course, it doesn=E2=80=99t make the ABNF as a whole stable > I went through the draft looking for "stabl", and found it only in=20 relation to validity (including the registry in general) and=20 grandfathered sub tags. I found nothing about the ABNF. Secion 8 of RFC=20 4646 says: "... in no case is the syntax more permissive and processors based on=20 the ABNF and other provisions of RFC 3066 (such as those described in=20 [XMLSchema]) will be able to process the tags described by this document.= " I think it would be very helpful (again esp. for outreach to other=20 technologies) to have a statement in the main text about the stability=20 and backwards compatibility of the ABNF. Of course one cannot predict=20 the future of the ABNF, but expressing the intention might help already. Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 12:59:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyX9-000838-3E; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:59:43 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyX7-00082z-UT for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:59:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyX7-00082q-Kp for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:59:41 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzyX7-0002bh-BR for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:59:41 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:59:02 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.72]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:59:39 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:59:32 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg3ZxEJbhfwWp77T8iNdl5plZ6lSwAAOwWg Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <47561C1C.9040307@w3.org> <47562F2D.4050000@w3.org> <4756E463.9070809@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <4756E463.9070809@w3.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1132935470==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1132935470== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBGcm9tOiBGZWxpeCBTYXNha2kgW21haWx0bzpmc2FzYWtpQHczLm9yZ10NCg0KDQo+IGV4YWN0 bHkgLSBvciByYXRoZXIgc3BlY3MgY2l0aW5nIEJDUCA0Ny4gVGhhdCdzIG15IHdob2xlIHBvaW50 IC0gdGhlDQo+IGRhbmdlciB0aGF0IHNwZWNzIHdyaXRlcnMgbWlnaHQgbG9vayBhdCB0aGUgZHJv cHBlZCBleHRsYW5nIGFuZCBzYXkNCj4gInRoZXkgYXJlIGRyb3BwaW5nIGZlYXR1cmVzIGJldHdl ZW4gdmVyc2lvbnMgb2YgIEJDUCA0Nywgc28gd2UgYmV0dGVyDQo+IHJlZmVyIHRvIGFuIFJGQyAq b25seSogYW5kIGV2ZW4gbGVhdmUgJ29yIGl0cyBzdWNjZXNzb3InIG91dCIuDQoNCkJ1dCB0aGlz IGlzIGEga2V5OiB3ZSBhcmUgKm5vdCogZHJvcHBpbmcgYW55IGZlYXR1cmVzLiBXZSBhcmUgZHJv cHBpbmcgdGhlIHBvc3NpYmlsaXR5IG9mIGEgZnV0dXJlIGZlYXR1cmUuIFRoZSBjaGFuZ2UgdG8g dGhlIEFCTkYgKHdoZXRoZXIgYnkgcmVtb3ZpbmcgdGhlIGV4dGxhbmcgc3VidGFnIGVudGlyZWx5 IG9yIGJ5IHJlbmFtaW5nIGFuZC9vciBjb21tZW50cykgaXMgdG8gY2xlYW4gaXQgdXAgc28gdGhh dCBpbXBsZW1lbnRlcnMgZG8gbm90IGltcGxlbWVudCBmb3Igbm9uLWFuZC1uZXZlci10by1iZS1m ZWF0dXJlcy4NCg0KDQpQZXRlcg0K --===============1132935470== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1132935470==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 13:08:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izyfy-00053G-T8; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:08:50 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izyfx-000534-LA for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:08:49 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izyfx-00052w-A9 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:08:49 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izyfw-0003M2-SM for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:08:49 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E3D2BC1F; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 03:08:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G87gY8tX5HYy; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 03:08:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p3080-ipad508marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.148.90.80]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8092BC1E; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 03:08:47 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <4756E92A.5030909@w3.org> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:08:42 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <47561C1C.9040307@w3.org> <47562F2D.4050000@w3.org> <4756E463.9070809@w3.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: >> From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org] >> > > > >> exactly - or rather specs citing BCP 47. That's my whole point - the >> danger that specs writers might look at the dropped extlang and say >> "they are dropping features between versions of BCP 47, so we better >> refer to an RFC *only* and even leave 'or its successor' out". >> > > But this is a key: we are *not* dropping any features. We are dropping the possibility of a future feature. The change to the ABNF (whether by removing the extlang subtag entirely or by renaming and/or comments) is to clean it up so that implementers do not implement for non-and-never-to-be-features. > Looking closer to the spec than the ABNF, of course I see you point - but I'm still worried about the unclear status of the ABNF, see my other mail about the missing description of the ANBF stability. Btw., I would be fine with your version of option #2 as well. Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 13:37:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izz7E-0001Sq-UF; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:37:00 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Izz7D-0001Pd-Ny for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:36:59 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izz7D-0001PV-E9 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:36:59 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izz7B-0005eA-BB for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:36:59 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzycX-000400-KL for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:05:17 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.52]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:05:17 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:05:17 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 18:32:57 +0100 Organization: Lines: 79 Message-ID: References: <012701c83755$994cbc70$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Latin / "un-deprecation" / generic variants / extensions (was: Frank's comments) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: =20 > MES-1 is completely irrelevant to me from the standpoint of > deciding whether a letter is in the Latin script. For me it's relevant because I trust that the fonts I use (or readers of my articles use) can handle it. > U+0114 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH BREVE is not in MES-1. http://purl.net/net/ucode/0114 lists some languages where that's used, not exactly what I'd miss in a "multilingual European subset" created by CEN. Similarly Vietnamese, I offer to tune my Latin "definition" down to Latin-1 :-) > How about this: I will put together a brief analysis > of the letters used in Description fields in the proposed > 4645bis Registry, which is coming soon now that Addison > has submitted draft-4646bis-10, and we can talk about > whether those all meet the "Latin" requirement as each > of us understands it. Then, we can talk about where to > draw the line. Okay, let's see some interesting "Latin" click characters.=20 > "M=C4=81h=C4=81r=C4=81=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADri Pr=C4=81krit". Not all of = those letters with macron=20 > or dot below will display on a Windows 95 box. On W2K I can't see two char.s Mahara??ri. And I think I use "New Courier" (whatever that is, OS/2 had a real "Courier") or "Lucida Console" (one serving as a "proportional" font :-) > To play devil's advocate: WG members, what are the disadvantages > of allowing a deprecated subtag to become un-deprecated, if it > is resurrected in the underlying ISO standard? +1 (seconding the question, St=C3=A9phane's point about FX) =20 >> And if it's about one of those Slovenian dialects you could arrive >> at three variants. =20 > Yes, you could. And it's easy to imagine exactly that scenario; Dr.=20 > Steenwijk might want to use IPA to demonstrate how Lipovaz Resian is=20 > pronounced. So... where is the problem? With only two generic variants we arrived at a plausible longer "most perverse tag", and we have two ways to sort three variants in the tag. If other (unrelated) generic variants are registered it will be messy. [extensions]=20 > I think the requirement to host and moderate a mailing list is=20 > another major hurdle to extensions. Oops, why should that be required ? Depends on the extension, I think. I've never tested it, but creating a Google or Yahoo group should be simple, subscribe GMane to it, enjoy a clean interface with an archive, news feed, NNTP, search, ... Submit it to "other IETF lists" (toss a coin for one of the two ADs who can handle "apps" lists), copy an IETF NOTE WELL to the description, ready. =20 Or ask another "hoster", Harald, Lisa, Paul, IASA (I've no idea how to ask IASA, but AFAIK there are lists hosted directly by the IETF), etc. > I would have gladly written the RFC, though I think the mailing list=20 > would have been out of my reach. You could decree that proposed additions to the IPA + UPA registry are=20 discussed on the language subtag list (unless Michael tells you to get lost). Or you decree that only transliteration schemes mentioned in TUS can be registered, and IANA has to check it. Or use the Unicode list for this business. Or decree that it's a closed extension with exactly two values. You could also let the IESG appoint an expert, and while they are at it they have to create a list. Even IANA has its own mailing lists (but better don't try this at the moment, they=20 need to fix their archiving software first). Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 14:33:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzzzX-0004l9-HY; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:33:07 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzzzW-0004ks-63 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:33:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzzzV-0004ki-SQ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:33:05 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzzzT-0002BD-Mt for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:33:05 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:32:24 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.186]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:32:57 -0800 From: Shawn Steele To: Peter Constable , "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:32:55 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg2+R0qSWsBBm3ATHOx7LOnY4WU0AAajy8AAAQW00A= Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204164508.GA24641@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > >> 2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is > > "permanently > > >> reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO). > > >> > > > > > > I favor this. > > > > > me too. > "Permanently reserved" is not strong enough, IMO. It must be clear that e= xtlang is *permanently dead*. I think > #1 makes that clearer, but I'd acce= pt a variation of #2 that left no doubt. I agree with Peter that if its dead it should be made clear that it is comp= letely dead. "Permanently reserved" implies that software still needs to c= onsider the possibility that such tags would exist, adding complexity that = will never be used. - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 16:36:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J01vI-0003cO-M7; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:36:52 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J01vH-0003c9-Ch for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:36:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J01vH-0003c0-2j for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:36:51 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J01vG-0005vM-Nl for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:36:51 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i28so2640371nzi for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:36:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=ekycHiInv22GxTTMH8GIodS9B2F0iOvYyMKsFUkF3So=; b=soFu1ulC2w9gwZfDCpNyYvBef0UeotR3ce0/7SspA/cAweU4q4DbKuSQPdii5ASuUlArDo/gxYJCa4MznExn73wx+Q/aY/AmX04DuPvKlmkDzJayZ3n0iGfPU6HmdNXlV1jvltOZ63lvj34iTaV9bWD5cNhKJd00YaBEDzinplw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZEUlcQGIB5ml7OhtIaU3NCzaTicgkTGKJuT8XW5h7SNhc8Kemli/akqbn08uWnoZyhA7LHGMU8PAs9rWdAKUWncBtjyGAuhoprvqtzAtIPsvL2GrRcWZvkLKZ3iNsAJ9yBlRsfmL/sVdSyhw0HvZkkQSLxrp10YSOcqUKo1Dtzg= Received: by 10.142.232.20 with SMTP id e20mr159419wfh.1196890609838; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.52.7 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:36:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 16:36:49 -0500 From: "Ira McDonald" To: "Shawn Steele" , "Ira McDonald" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, And, oddly, RFC 2119 does not define the two important conformance words used widely in IETF specs "DEPRECATED" (dying) and "OBSOLETE" (dead). But I urge that an inline comment in the ABNF use the word OBSOLETE and the text make clear that conforming implementations MUST NOT produce or consume "extlang" subtags. Cheers, - Ira On Dec 5, 2007 2:32 PM, Shawn Steele wrote: > > > >> 2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is > > > "permanently > > > >> reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO). > > > >> > > > > > > > > I favor this. > > > > > > > me too. > > > "Permanently reserved" is not strong enough, IMO. It must be clear that extlang is *permanently dead*. I think > #1 makes that clearer, but I'd accept a variation of #2 that left no doubt. > > I agree with Peter that if its dead it should be made clear that it is completely dead. "Permanently reserved" implies that software still needs to consider the possibility that such tags would exist, adding complexity that will never be used. > > - Shawn > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 work: +1-906-494-2434 home: +1-906-494-2697 email: blueroofmusic@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 16:45:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J023D-0006uB-FF; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:45:03 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J023B-0006tY-Mr for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:45:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J023B-0006tN-DB for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:45:01 -0500 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J023B-0006mh-36 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:45:01 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:44:21 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.72]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:45:00 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:44:52 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg3hvfSI5GjjMuvTzO5SLjJ5eIGsgAAKnjA Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Ira McDonald [mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com] > And, oddly, RFC 2119 does not define the two important conformance > words used > widely in IETF specs "DEPRECATED" (dying) and "OBSOLETE" (dead). But I > urge > that an inline comment in the ABNF use the word OBSOLETE and the text > make > clear that conforming implementations MUST NOT produce or consume > "extlang" > subtags. Of course, the only difference between that and removing extlang from the A= BNF is the ability to claim, in *some* sense, the ABNF has not changed. But= also of course, there is a very real change of syntax, so that claim is so= mewhat vacuous. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 18:14:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J03Rr-0005J5-Re; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:14:35 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J03Rq-0005Il-GJ for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:14:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J03Rq-0005IY-6n for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:14:34 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J03Ro-0007m5-Lr for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:14:34 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB5NEER2095200; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 15:14:14 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YZF6xllj/PITtuN9VA6v1nRc9OU7OKVB6nh3VWWLZFgWvCM+1sNE5stXQfkbp/zO Message-ID: <475730C6.7040903@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:14:14 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ira McDonald Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Would making the ABNF read like the following be adequate: ... language = (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag extlang = *3("-" 3ALPHA) ; OBSOLETE (do not use) ... Addison Ira McDonald wrote: > Hi, > > And, oddly, RFC 2119 does not define the two important conformance words used > widely in IETF specs "DEPRECATED" (dying) and "OBSOLETE" (dead). But I urge > that an inline comment in the ABNF use the word OBSOLETE and the text make > clear that conforming implementations MUST NOT produce or consume "extlang" > subtags. > > Cheers, > - Ira > > On Dec 5, 2007 2:32 PM, Shawn Steele wrote: >>>>>> 2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is >>>> "permanently >>>>>> reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO). >>>>>> >>>>> I favor this. >>>>> >>>> me too. >>> "Permanently reserved" is not strong enough, IMO. It must be clear that extlang is *permanently dead*. I think > #1 makes that clearer, but I'd accept a variation of #2 that left no doubt. >> I agree with Peter that if its dead it should be made clear that it is completely dead. "Permanently reserved" implies that software still needs to consider the possibility that such tags would exist, adding complexity that will never be used. >> >> - Shawn >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > > > -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 18:17:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J03UE-00061t-Nw; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:17:02 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J03UD-00060t-1h for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:17:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J03UC-0005zi-Nf for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:17:00 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.179]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J03UB-00082w-TK for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:17:00 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so5490wah for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:16:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=jZ+NxMr7mh/TnPn4GslI33G/vgvij4klSNOngt/pFos=; b=EhNeyLtZ8jASqUlpWGppxqHwy63HclW7eptkT2ChIJUiy10/ORs2ZfQPDHuWI+n+6A/nQ+bfN3Eipy7EUHm919ub3gotat4NtU1bVQTMtVQwIXVzXRFsmGWwOvC0mu1pkLHqdUwOpqUsfrKt8W9UnZXa43GbiwANWu9EwE7+ArU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=f/e/yEuZmEq6JCUl5RwMgZoPSUtitVw2tNGyiGVwKGGPcByH0V1OtJLfw3K/cKPCBfHg+3d0+roBl8k0ItzXcPtZmJr3e4bPc1jCh6ePxtLn9pHv7MpnkVXh6iSJfqp9pBoxvoBbgA+guBv3SghLMscaiX8S5MttIRRLuQbUljk= Received: by 10.114.127.1 with SMTP id z1mr675027wac.1196896618034; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:16:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 15:16:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712051516q47fab024l839458f82183a8f3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 15:16:57 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <475730C6.7040903@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> <475730C6.7040903@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: bfaf2d25d3e02fc2 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d2e37451f7f22841e3b6f40c67db0f Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0154696503==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0154696503== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6362_18002665.1196896618026" ------=_Part_6362_18002665.1196896618026 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline LGTM On Dec 5, 2007 3:14 PM, Addison Phillips wrote: > Would making the ABNF read like the following be adequate: > > ... > > language = (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code > / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use > / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag > > extlang = *3("-" 3ALPHA) ; OBSOLETE (do not use) > > ... > > Addison > > > Ira McDonald wrote: > > Hi, > > > > And, oddly, RFC 2119 does not define the two important conformance words > used > > widely in IETF specs "DEPRECATED" (dying) and "OBSOLETE" (dead). But I > urge > > that an inline comment in the ABNF use the word OBSOLETE and the text > make > > clear that conforming implementations MUST NOT produce or consume > "extlang" > > subtags. > > > > Cheers, > > - Ira > > > > On Dec 5, 2007 2:32 PM, Shawn Steele wrote: > >>>>>> 2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is > >>>> "permanently > >>>>>> reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO). > >>>>>> > >>>>> I favor this. > >>>>> > >>>> me too. > >>> "Permanently reserved" is not strong enough, IMO. It must be clear > that extlang is *permanently dead*. I think > #1 makes that clearer, but I'd > accept a variation of #2 that left no doubt. > >> I agree with Peter that if its dead it should be made clear that it is > completely dead. "Permanently reserved" implies that software still needs > to consider the possibility that such tags would exist, adding complexity > that will never be used. > >> > >> - Shawn > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Ltru mailing list > >> Ltru@ietf.org > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_6362_18002665.1196896618026 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline LGTM

On Dec 5, 2007 3:14 PM, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
Would making the ABNF read like the following be adequate:

...

language      = (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code
              / 4ALPHA                 ; reserved for future use
              / 5*8ALPHA               ; registered language subtag

extlang       = *3("-" 3ALPHA)         ; OBSOLETE (do not use)

...

Addison


Ira McDonald wrote:
> Hi,
>
> And, oddly, RFC 2119 does not define the two important conformance words used
> widely in IETF specs "DEPRECATED" (dying) and "OBSOLETE" (dead).  But I urge
> that an inline comment in the ABNF use the word OBSOLETE and the text make
> clear that conforming implementations MUST NOT produce or consume "extlang"
> subtags.
>
> Cheers,
> - Ira
>
> On Dec 5, 2007 2:32 PM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>    2. Leave extlang in the ABNF, but document that it is
>>>> "permanently
>>>>>>    reserved" (will never be used, a la ISO).
>>>>>>
>>>>> I favor this.
>>>>>
>>>> me too.
>>> "Permanently reserved" is not strong enough, IMO. It must be clear that extlang is *permanently dead*. I think > #1 makes that clearer, but I'd accept a variation of #2 that left no doubt.
>> I agree with Peter that if its dead it should be made clear that it is completely dead.  "Permanently reserved" implies that software still needs to consider the possibility that such tags would exist, adding complexity that will never be used.
>>
>> - Shawn
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
>
>
>


--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_6362_18002665.1196896618026-- --===============0154696503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0154696503==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 19:09:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J04Iy-000671-Hv; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:09:28 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J04Ix-00066s-IJ for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:09:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J04Ix-00066O-7w for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:09:27 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J04Iv-0004Zw-Ep for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:09:27 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J04In-0006Qx-8D for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:09:17 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.52]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:09:17 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:09:17 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 01:11:16 +0100 Organization: Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org><47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> <475730C6.7040903@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > language =3D (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code > / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use > / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag >=20 > extlang =3D *3("-" 3ALPHA) ; OBSOLETE (do not use) s/extlang/obs-extlang/g Corresponding prose somewhere: | The construct was reserved in [RFC 4646] for future | use, and later identified as unnecessary. It will never be used, | its sole purpose is a definition of formally "well-formed" tags | (see Section X.Y) matching the definition given in [RFC 4646]. Of course I still don't like this rubbish, the folks wanting it did not post a compelling example for what purpose they really need it. What interoperability issue do they try to solve with ? They get a parser ambiguity for tags matching also , in which way is that a good thing, less tags maybe ? Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 00:21:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J09B9-0006hE-Em; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:21:43 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J09B9-0006gz-2h for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:21:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J09B8-0006ga-Mw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:21:42 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J09B6-0001V3-C0 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:21:42 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lB65LWqf010666 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:21:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 197f_1af5e4dc_a3bb_11dc_8935_0014221fa3c9; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:21:32 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:33167) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:17:33 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071206135858.0c152aa0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:01:30 +0900 To: Addison Phillips , Ira McDonald From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <475730C6.7040903@yahoo-inc.com> References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> <475730C6.7040903@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I think there is (at least) rough consensus that we do not want to completely remove the extlang production from the ABNF in RFC 4646bis. (I only see Frank cleary opposing this, everybody else is either for it or is okay with it.) At 08:14 07/12/06, Addison Phillips wrote: >Would making the ABNF read like the following be adequate: > >... > >language = (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code > / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use > / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag > >extlang = *3("-" 3ALPHA) ; OBSOLETE (do not use) I would be okay with this, with some explaining text. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 00:21:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J09B9-0006hA-CF; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:21:43 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J09B9-0006gr-0T for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:21:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J09B8-0006gU-LI for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:21:42 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J09B6-0001V8-By for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:21:42 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lB65LYdJ010679 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:21:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 1903_1c364cf6_a3bb_11dc_8d80_0014221fa3c9; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:21:33 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:33167) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:17:35 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071206140146.0c150950@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:10:22 +0900 To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] RE: Remove extlang from ABNF? (Was: summary ofrecommendations coming out of this week's teleconf In-Reply-To: References: <20071203082927.GA6131@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 06:59 07/12/04, Peter Constable wrote: >> From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] >> Warning, it means that tags which were well-formed in RFC 4646 (but >> not valid since no extlang was registered) won't be well-formed >> anymore. Isn't a violation of the stability principle? (Yes, the >> "extlang" production in RFC 4646 was marked as "reserved for future >> use" but it was legal nevertheless.) > >Correct. Since there have never been registered extlang subtags, there >might be parsers that allow for it but there should not be any tags that >include them. If some such tags are out there in the wild, they would be >well-formed but not valid in 4646, and neither well-formed nor valid in >4646bis (under this proposal). My understanding is that if we leave the production in the ABNF, such tags would still be well-formed. I don't think we can have it both ways. The tags would be well-formed but obsolete. I think we should be very clear about what the consequences of our draft are. I think we are extremely clear on the fact that we don't want anybody to generate tags with extlangs (except for a few pre- registered ones (*)). But what about applications receiving these tags? Are we okay with applications that accept tags with extlangs as well-formed? Are we okay with applications that don't accept tags with extlangs as well-formed? Are we okay with both? What does that mean for existing implementations? Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 03:09:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Bni-0006s5-RY; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:09:42 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Bnh-0006rt-4V for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:09:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Bne-0006rP-JD for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:09:39 -0500 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0BnW-0000rG-A1 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:09:38 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lB689T1K025525 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:09:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 19ef_915df72e_a3d2_11dc_9e3d_0014221fa3c9; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 17:09:28 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:36013) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:05:30 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071206162427.0c17f560@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:27:42 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week In-Reply-To: <004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> References: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com> <47562F67.6060905@yahoo-inc.com> <004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 14:21 07/12/05, Doug Ewell wrote: >Addison Phillips wrote: > >> There is already a note in 4646bis about Macrolanguage. Perhaps take a look at it and comment directly on the text? > >I assume this means the three paragraphs near the bottom of Section 4.1. I think this text is really the best we can do to capture the intent of the WG. Anything more specific will raise more questions than it answers. > >I'm opposed to spending time on a revision of RFC 4647, since we expect everyone to ignore it anyway and stick with remove-from-right. A really cheap way out would be to put the necessary language in RFC 4646bis, and leave RFC 4647 alone. Just an idea, probably not a very good one, it depends on the exact text that's needed. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 03:09:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Bnm-0006tz-5R; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:09:46 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Bnk-0006st-N1 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:09:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Bnk-0006sk-Cr for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:09:44 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0BnZ-0000rL-An for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:09:44 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lB689WuH019795 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:09:32 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 7df8_930bb61a_a3d2_11dc_935a_0014221f2a2d; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 17:09:31 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:36013) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:05:33 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071206165058.0c190700@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 17:07:59 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Frank's comments In-Reply-To: <012701c83755$994cbc70$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> References: <012701c83755$994cbc70$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 00:43 07/12/06, Doug Ewell wrote: >Frank Ellermann wrote: >> Maybe we discussed the opposite, a union splitting again (DE breaking up into "DE3" and DD again, recycling DD should be a no-brainer. It's ugly that DE3 is a proper subset of DE2 in this case, on the other hand DE3 == DE1 as it was before the union. All theoretical, of course... :-) > >To play devil's advocate: WG members, what are the disadvantages of allowing a deprecated subtag to become un-deprecated, if it is resurrected in the underlying ISO standard? Technically, I can see a difference between the case where there is Preferred-Value: information, and the case where there is no such value. Looking through the current registry, such a rule would give reasonable results in most cases that I can envision, but not necessarily in all of them (e.g. YU goes to CS). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 03:40:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0CHr-0001Hl-JE; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:40:51 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0CHq-0001HU-Dv for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:40:50 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0CHq-0001H5-0C for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:40:50 -0500 Received: from mailb.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0CHl-0002B7-JX for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:40:49 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:40:45 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.111]) with mapi; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:40:45 -0800 From: Shawn Steele To: Martin Duerst , Addison Phillips , Ira McDonald Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:40:44 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg3x+TxPaTbxzbeRHSk23q/Xoo+ZAAGs3Lu Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> <475730C6.7040903@yahoo-inc.com>, <6.0.0.20.2.20071206135858.0c152aa0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071206135858.0c152aa0@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > >language =3D (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code > > / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use > > / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag > > > >extlang =3D *3("-" 3ALPHA) ; OBSOLETE (do not use) > > I would be okay with this, with some explaining text. What do we expect OBSOLETE to do? Ok, I get that I shouldn't use the obsol= ete tag to encode new data, but are applications expected to recognize such= obsolete tags, even if they weren't ever valid? If applications aren't expected to recognize them, then why declare it form= ally? Why not just say in the prose that there use to be such an extlang t= hought, but its obsolete? If someone reading RFC3066bis is really curious = they could look at RFC3066 and see what the original idea was. My concern is that if a developer/spec writer/tester is reading this they m= ight feel that its best to go ahead and decide to recognize these in case a= ny of these obsolete tags are encountered. That could require a considerab= le expense depending on the depth of the effort. If it were clear that non= e have ever been registered or legally allowed, and it was obsoleted before= it was ever implemented, then the hypothetical development team could save= that expense and effort. - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 03:45:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0CLu-0004kN-IL; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:45:02 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0CLt-0004kB-3m for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:45:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0CLs-0004k3-Pt for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:45:00 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0CLo-0002MO-Bm for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:45:00 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id AA5B11C01AF; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 09:44:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58271C01A8; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 09:44:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CB158ECBE; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 09:44:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 09:44:55 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@lists.ietf.org Message-ID: <20071206084455.GA30793@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] The blunder of the year X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The registry was updated yesterday (addition of many scripts like Armi) and File-Date was *not* modified :-( _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 08:10:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0GVB-0003G0-2X; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 08:10:53 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0GV9-0003Fo-DR for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 08:10:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0GV8-0003Fb-OC for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 08:10:50 -0500 Received: from mta18.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.54] helo=mta18.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0GV3-0005S4-VH for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 08:10:50 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071204151822.HABC29266.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 10:18:22 -0500 Message-ID: <004f01c83688$e8a15b00$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 07:18:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Frank's comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> Do we need to provide a definition of the Latin script? > > My definition is simple: MES-1, optionally plus a few glyphs used on > a "popular" platform. What's your definition, Latin-1 ? Not at all. If I thought it was unclear, I would probably use the Unicode (UAX #24) definition: all characters in the string have script value 'Latn' or 'Zyyy" (Common) or "Qaai' (Inherited). The reloaded 4645bis Registry will contain some language subtags with only one Description field, which is not pure Latin-1. These are things like a-with-macron and s-with-dot-below, for some Indian languages. This is still Latin. > Okay. So what does the new MUSTard in the draft ? Is it about the > variants or "registered languages", and why would anybody want say > some fonipa transliteration in addition to the description(s) offered > by the requester ? What's special with "Latn" in a broad Unicode > sense, why no Kore, Jpan, or Brai ? For RFC 4646 we made sure that we > have _no_ prejudice for Latn, and permit (in theory) all code points. Description fields are permitted in any imaginable script. But one of the fields for a given subtag has to be in the Latin script. > You hit an example that I can read, therefore I recall that the review > list managed this registration without a new MUST. Rules are better than relying on enlightened statesmen. >>> It still contains the unused 5*8ALPHA "registered languages" instead >>> of reviving the good tradition of i-whatever tags for this in the >>> times of 639-3 likely unnecessary loophole. > >> I don't believe there is any popular sympathy, let alone consensus, >> to change this. I wonder why you would call out Addison for not >> changing it. > > My list contained only one point wrt consensus, the disputed > territories. It was a summary of my objections + rationale. I understand this. What I don't understand is why you mentioned "it still contains the registered language subtags." Of course it does; there was no agreement to change this. > IIRC we discussed cases of splits later re-uniting again for RFC 4646, > e.g. a new incarnation of YU, or CS. And I thought that we made sure > that this will work as everybody would expect it. As I said, I think this issue deserves serious discussion. I don't recall it being discussed before. But once we do reach a decision -- preferably certified by a chair-declared consensus -- we should stick with it and not reopen the issue. > The "most perverse tag" has two variants. With fonipa or fonupa it's > in theory three, or even four if a pervert manages to use fonipa and > fonupa simultaneously. Tag content wisely. > Just an example, for 4646 we discussed generic north south westx eastx > and similar cases arriving at SHOULD NOT, after fonipa and company I'm > ready for MUST NOT. 'north' and 'south' and company, used generically, are not clearly defined. Sometimes the concepts are clearly defined when used with a specific language, such as Armenian, but not in other cases. How would one define "de-DE-north" and "de-DE-south"? IPA and UPA are a completely different matter. It is very clear when a non-trivial passage of text is written in IPA. >> You're probably more likely to see a 5- to 8-letter registered >> language subtag before you see an extension. The barriers to >> creating an extension are just too high. > > With a MUST NOT for generic variants folks might manage it. If more > cases like fonipa + fonupa are identified maybe it will result in the > first extension. Arguably better than more generic variants, each > extension can have its own rules. It's hard to decide if 1996 and > fonupa in the same tag could make sense or not, and what the best > order should be. Don't forget, I argued for extensions for the IPA/UPA case. The reaction was clear, from both the LTRU and ietf-languages lists: nobody wanted to see extensions used for this. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 09:43:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0HwJ-00082K-Ti; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:42:59 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0HwI-0007q1-59 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:42:58 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0HwH-0007nB-Pe for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:42:57 -0500 Received: from mta15.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77] helo=mta15.adelphia.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0HwH-000110-Ce for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:42:57 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071206144256.QJOU1480.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 09:42:56 -0500 Message-ID: <018601c83816$4a5d3ec0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 06:42:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: >> But I urge that an inline comment in the ABNF use the word OBSOLETE >> and the text make clear that conforming implementations MUST NOT >> produce or consume "extlang" subtags. > > Of course, the only difference between that and removing extlang from > the ABNF is the ability to claim, in *some* sense, the ABNF has not > changed. But also of course, there is a very real change of syntax, so > that claim is somewhat vacuous. Peter has a good point here. Martin Duerst wrote: > My understanding is that if we leave the production in the ABNF, such > tags would still be well-formed. I don't think we can have it both > ways. The tags would be well-formed but obsolete. This probably depends on what people expect from the concept of "well-formed." > I think there is (at least) rough consensus that we do not want to > completely remove the extlang production from the ABNF in RFC 4646bis. > (I only see Frank cleary opposing this, everybody else is either for > it or is okay with it.) I tend to agree with Frank (and Peter's comment) that if extlangs no longer exist, we ought not to pretend in the ABNF that they do. But I'm no ABNF lawyer, so I'll defer to those who have more experience here. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 10:00:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ICz-0008Fq-5f; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:00:13 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ICy-0008Fj-Aa for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:00:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ICy-0008Fa-14 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:00:12 -0500 Received: from mta16.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211] helo=mta16.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ICt-0004kp-GQ for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:00:11 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071206150006.SCHI1391.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:00:06 -0500 Message-ID: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 07:00:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: >> That's my whole point - the danger that specs writers might look at >> the dropped extlang and say "they are dropping features between >> versions of BCP 47, so we better refer to an RFC *only* and even >> leave 'or its successor' out". > > But this is a key: we are *not* dropping any features. We are dropping > the possibility of a future feature. The change to the ABNF (whether > by removing the extlang subtag entirely or by renaming and/or > comments) is to clean it up so that implementers do not implement for > non-and-never-to-be-features. I think what Felix meant was not that we are dropping features, but that it may appear to the outside observer that we are dropping features. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 10:42:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0IsK-0001xr-44; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:42:56 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0IsI-0001xj-JE for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:42:54 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0IsI-0001xb-8G for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:42:54 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0IsH-0005sB-Ny for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:42:54 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071206154253.BMKK19654.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:42:53 -0500 Message-ID: <019801c8381e$aa177ee0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 07:42:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5d7a7e767f20255fce80fa0b77fb2433 Subject: [Ltru] Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Here are the Description fields in the proposed RFC 4645bis Registry that contain non-Latin-1 characters. This is presented in blocks showing the type and value of the subtag, as well as the non-Latin-1 description, so readers can look up the full context in draft-4645bis-02 (or -03, when it's ready). There are two blocks of listings here. The first is in hex NCRs, as they will appear in RFC 4645bis. This is shown here for the benefit of WG members who cannot see non-Latin-1 characters in their e-mail or on the Web-based mailing list archive. The second block is in UTF-8. Not all of these Description fields are the sole Description field for their respective subtag. For example, the script subtag 'Ethi' also has the description "Ethiopic", so technically it doesn't matter for this discussion whether the string "Geʻez" is "Latin-script" or not; the subtag already has a "Latin-script" description as required. However, all of the non-Latin-1 Description fields are shown here, to help us make a well-informed decision. RFC 4646bis says, "At least one of the 'Description' fields MUST be written or transcribed into the Latin script." It does not say every character in that field must have the word LATIN in its Unicode name, must have the "Latn" script property in Unicode, must be present in Latin-1, Windows-1252, MES-1, etc. As Frank points out, we don't have an operational definition of "Latin script" to guide us here. All of the characters in these Description fields do have either the "Latn" or "Zyyy" (Common) script property in Unicode, and all belong to one of the following Unicode blocks: * Basic Latin * Latin-1 Supplement * Latin Extended-A * Spacing Modifier Letters * Latin Extended Additional * General Punctuation ----- Hex NCRs: Type: language Subtag: gwi Description: Gwichʼin Type: language Subtag: nqo Description: N’Ko Type: language Subtag: pka Description: Ardhamāgadhī Prākrit Description: Prākrit, Ardhamāgadhī Type: language Subtag: pmh Description: Māhārāṣṭri Prākrit Description: Prākrit, Māhārāṣṭri Type: language Subtag: psu Description: Sauraseni Prākrit Description: Prākrit, Sauraseni Type: script Subtag: Ethi Description: Geʻez Type: script Subtag: Hang Description: Hangŭl Type: script Subtag: Nkoo Description: N’Ko ----- UTF-8: Type: language Subtag: gwi Description: Gwichʼin Type: language Subtag: nqo Description: N’Ko Type: language Subtag: pka Description: Ardhamāgadhī Prākrit Description: Prākrit, Ardhamāgadhī Type: language Subtag: pmh Description: Māhārāṣṭri Prākrit Description: Prākrit, Māhārāṣṭri Type: language Subtag: psu Description: Sauraseni Prākrit Description: Prākrit, Sauraseni Type: script Subtag: Ethi Description: Geʻez Type: script Subtag: Hang Description: Hangŭl Type: script Subtag: Nkoo Description: N’Ko -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 10:58:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0J73-000885-VY; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:58:09 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0J73-00087z-7H for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:58:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0J72-00087l-EF for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:58:08 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0J6w-0000tO-R1 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:58:08 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J0J6w-0003w8-7I; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:58:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:58:02 -0500 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis Message-ID: <20071206155801.GO10807@mercury.ccil.org> References: <019801c8381e$aa177ee0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <019801c8381e$aa177ee0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > Type: language > Subtag: pka > Description: Ardhamāgadhī Prākrit > Description: Prākrit, Ardhamāgadhī Side issue. 4646bis-10 says not to include both wrapped and unwrapped descriptions. -- Values of beeta will give rise to dom! John Cowan (5th/6th edition 'mv' said this if you tried http://www.ccil.org/~cowan to rename '.' or '..' entries; see cowan@ccil.org http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/odd.html) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 11:00:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0J9U-0002qj-OK; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:00:40 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0J9S-0002qZ-UG for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:00:38 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0J9S-0002qJ-IX for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:00:38 -0500 Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0J9O-00013i-9L for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:00:38 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 07:59:53 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.185]) with mapi; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:00:33 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:00:31 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg3x+T1Z0AO5gsKQFCYAS1KM2D0GwAWPAAQ Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> <475730C6.7040903@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20071206135858.0c152aa0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071206135858.0c152aa0@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > I think there is (at least) rough consensus that we do not want > to completely remove the extlang production from the ABNF in > RFC 4646bis. (I only see Frank cleary opposing this, everybody > else is either for it or is okay with it.) I will go along if no consensus can be formed to remove it, though I still = lean toward removing it. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 11:16:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0JOu-0007eP-Ch; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:16:36 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0JOt-0007eB-Bs for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:16:35 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0JOt-0007e2-13 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:16:35 -0500 Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0JOs-0000NV-K7 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:16:34 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:15:53 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.117]) with mapi; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:16:34 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:16:31 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg4GL/61RJAIlbZRByEsYJCO4OhugACMl3A Message-ID: References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1543462455==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1543462455== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBGcm9tOiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsIFttYWlsdG86ZGV3ZWxsQHJvYWRydW5uZXIuY29tXQ0KDQo+ID4+ IFRoYXQncyBteSB3aG9sZSBwb2ludCAtIHRoZSBkYW5nZXIgdGhhdCBzcGVjcyB3cml0ZXJzIG1p Z2h0IGxvb2sgYXQNCj4gPj4gdGhlIGRyb3BwZWQgZXh0bGFuZyBhbmQgc2F5ICJ0aGV5IGFyZSBk cm9wcGluZyBmZWF0dXJlcyBiZXR3ZWVuDQo+ID4+IHZlcnNpb25zIG9mICBCQ1AgNDcsIHNvIHdl IGJldHRlciByZWZlciB0byBhbiBSRkMgKm9ubHkqIGFuZCBldmVuDQo+ID4+IGxlYXZlICdvciBp dHMgc3VjY2Vzc29yJyBvdXQiLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gQnV0IHRoaXMgaXMgYSBrZXk6IHdlIGFyZSAq bm90KiBkcm9wcGluZyBhbnkgZmVhdHVyZXMuIFdlIGFyZQ0KPiBkcm9wcGluZw0KPiA+IHRoZSBw b3NzaWJpbGl0eSBvZiBhIGZ1dHVyZSBmZWF0dXJlLiBUaGUgY2hhbmdlIHRvIHRoZSBBQk5GICh3 aGV0aGVyDQo+ID4gYnkgcmVtb3ZpbmcgdGhlIGV4dGxhbmcgc3VidGFnIGVudGlyZWx5IG9yIGJ5 IHJlbmFtaW5nIGFuZC9vcg0KPiA+IGNvbW1lbnRzKSBpcyB0byBjbGVhbiBpdCB1cCBzbyB0aGF0 IGltcGxlbWVudGVycyBkbyBub3QgaW1wbGVtZW50IGZvcg0KPiA+IG5vbi1hbmQtbmV2ZXItdG8t YmUtZmVhdHVyZXMuDQo+DQo+IEkgdGhpbmsgd2hhdCBGZWxpeCBtZWFudCB3YXMgbm90IHRoYXQg d2UgYXJlIGRyb3BwaW5nIGZlYXR1cmVzLCBidXQNCj4gdGhhdA0KPiBpdCBtYXkgYXBwZWFyIHRv IHRoZSBvdXRzaWRlIG9ic2VydmVyIHRoYXQgd2UgYXJlIGRyb3BwaW5nIGZlYXR1cmVzLg0KDQpJ IHVuZGVyc3Rvb2QgdGhhdC4gQnV0IEkgdGhpbmsgaXQncyBzaWduaWZpY2FudCB0aGF0IHdlIGFy ZSAqbm90KiByZW1vdmluZyBhbnkgZmVhdHVyZXMsIGFuZCBpdCBzZWVtcyB0byBtZSB0aGF0IGNv dWxkIGJlIGV4cGxhaW5lZCBlYXNpbHkgZW5vdWdoLg0KDQpUaGUgb25seSByZWFsIHN0YWJpbGl0 eSBjb25jZXJuIGlzIHRoYXQgc29tZSBleGlzdGluZyBwYXJzZXJzIHdvdWxkIHJlY29nbml6ZSBj ZXJ0YWluIGh5cG90aGV0aWNhbCB0YWdzIHRoZXkgbWlnaHQgZW5jb3VudGVyIGFzIGJlaW5nIHdl bGwgZm9ybWVkIHdoZW4gaW4gZmFjdCB0aGV5IGFyZSBub3Qgd2VsbCBmb3JtZWQuIFdoYXQgcG9z c2libGUgbWFsaWNpb3VzIGVmZmVjdCBjb3VsZCB0aGlzIGhhdmU/IElzIHRoaXMgYSB0YWcgaW4g YSBxdWVyeSBzdGF0ZW1lbnQ/IEl0IHZlcnkgbGlrZWx5IHdvbid0IG1hdGNoIGFueSBjb250ZW50 LiBJcyB0aGlzIGEgdGFnIGF0dHJpYnV0ZWQgdG8gY29udGVudD8gVGhlcmUgbGlrZWx5IHdvbid0 IGJlIGFueSByZXF1ZXN0cyBmb3IgaXQuIE9ubHkgaW4gc29tZSBjbG9zZWQgc3lzdGVtIGluIHdo aWNoIHNvbWVib2R5IGRlY2lkZWQgdG8gdXNlIHByb3ByaWV0YXJ5IGV4dGxhbmcgc3VidGFncyBh cmUgYm90aCBnb2luZyB0byBleGlzdCBieSBkZXNpZ24uIElmIHRoZSBwYXJzZXIgaXMgZW5jb3Vu dGVyaW5nIGEgdGFnIHNvbWVob3cgY29uc3RydWN0ZWQgc3VjaCB0aGF0IGl0IGhhcyBhIG5vdC1i eS1kZXNpZ24gZXh0bGFuZywgaXQgd29uJ3QgYmUgY2F0Y2hpbmcgYW4gY29uZGl0aW9uIHRoYXQg Y291bGQgYmUgY29uc2lkZXJlZCBhbiBlcnJvciwgYnV0IHRoZSBlcnJvciB3aWxsIHN0aWxsIGJl IHJlZmxlY3RlZCBpbiBhIGZhaWx1cmUgdG8gbWF0Y2ggYW55dGhpbmcsIGFuZCB0aGUgZXNzZW50 aWFsIGZpeCBtdXN0IGJlIGluIHRoZSBwcm9jZXNzICpjb25zdHJ1Y3RpbmcqIHRoYXQgdGFnIHJh dGhlciB0aGFuIGluIHRoZSBwYXJzZXIuDQoNCg0KUGV0ZXINCg== --===============1543462455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1543462455==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 11:38:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jjb-0000Jf-Te; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:37:59 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jja-0000JP-JP for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:37:58 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jja-0000JH-8f for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:37:58 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0JjY-0002Rw-3K for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:37:58 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J0JjX-0007Fj-Fa for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:37:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:37:55 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Subject: [Ltru] Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Yet another freakin' de novo review of 4646bis draft 10, sections 1 through 3.4. More review will follow. The following two changes are substantive: 1) I suggest adding this to 2.2.6 (extensions) after the first sentence: They are intended to identify information which is commonly used in association with language tags but is not part of language identification. 2) In 3.1.2, I'd prefer to say that implementations MUST rather than SHOULD ignore undefined fields in the registry. There is no reason why implementations should not be required to be liberal in what they accept. The remaining changes are all editorial: In 2.2, the term "code" is defined to refer to a value defined in an external standard. We should, pervasively throughout the document, change this to "code element", which is proper ISO terminology. (For ISO, "code" means the whole list.) The final graf in 2.2 should be bulleted like its predecessors. In 2.2.x, there are numbered points like "X subtags MUST follow any ... subtags and MUST precede any ... subtags". The numbers used are #2 in 2.2.3, #1 in 2.2.4, #2 in 2.2.5, #9 in 2.2.6, #3 in 2.2.7. These should all be moved to #1 in each list, and minor wording variations removed. 2.2.4(3)(C) uses the phrase "with ambiguous ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes". This is not very clear to those who don't know the history, and should be expanded to something like "whose alpha-2 code was formerly (since ) associated with a different country". Someone will have to look up what the cutoff date was -- I forget. 2.2.5: s/suitable to form/suitable for forming/ 2.2.8: s/current registered/currently registered/ 3.1.1: change the definition of folding to "Folding is always done on Unicode default grapheme boundaries". That says what the current text says, and also prohibits folding in the middle of a Hangul syllable written as separate jamo. 3.1.2: In the explanation of "Preferred-Value", the first two bullet points say "Preferred-Value contains" but the third does not. 3.1.3: "The 'Subtag' field MUST use lowercase letters" says too much; it implicitly forbids digits. What is meant is "The 'Subtag' field MUST NOT use uppercase letters". Adding "all" before "uppercase" in the sentence about region subtags will clarify it. 3.1.4: s/For records taken/For subtags taken/. 3.1.4: s/English localized names/localized English names/. 3.1.7: s/a prefix a prefix/a prefix/. 3.1.4: it's not about countries changing their official names, as official names aren't even in the registry. (Hands up all those who can say the official name of the U.S. without looking it up.) Remove "official". 3.4(16): s/should it be possible/should it become possible/. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Today an interactive brochure website, tomorrow a global content management system that leverages collective synergy to drive "outside of the box" thinking and formulate key objectives into a win-win game plan with a quality-driven approach that focuses on empowering key players to drive-up their core competencies and increase expectations with an all-around initiative to drive up the bottom-line. --Alex Papadimoulis _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 11:44:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jq4-0001KT-0y; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:44:40 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jq1-0001F2-Uy for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:44:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jq1-0001Er-9Q for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:44:37 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jpz-000514-Qx for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:44:37 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 491181C01BA; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:44:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44BB31C01B8; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:44:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BFD58ECC5; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:44:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:44:35 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: John Cowan Message-ID: <20071206164435.GA29246@nic.fr> References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 11:37:55AM -0500, John Cowan wrote a message of 78 lines which said: > 2) In 3.1.2, I'd prefer to say that implementations MUST rather than > SHOULD ignore undefined fields in the registry. There is no reason > why implementations should not be required to be liberal in what > they accept. I believe it would forbid a registry-checking application (like the one IANA should run after any change). So, it seems a bad idea. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 12:02:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0K7m-0006H4-9s; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:02:58 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0K7k-0006Gq-J9 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:02:56 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0K7k-0006Gh-9c for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:02:56 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0K7k-0006Su-3I for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:02:56 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J0K7g-00017a-LF; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:02:52 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:02:52 -0500 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Message-ID: <20071206170252.GR10807@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> <20071206164435.GA29246@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071206164435.GA29246@nic.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer scripsit: > > 2) In 3.1.2, I'd prefer to say that implementations MUST rather than > > SHOULD ignore undefined fields in the registry. There is no reason > > why implementations should not be required to be liberal in what > > they accept. > > I believe it would forbid a registry-checking application (like the > one IANA should run after any change). So, it seems a bad idea. Fair enough. Concedo. -- "Well, I'm back." --Sam John Cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 12:38:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0KgX-0001JE-1R; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:38:53 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0KgW-0001J9-JQ for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:38:52 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0KgW-0001J1-8C for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:38:52 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.176]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0KgV-0007W4-OA for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:38:52 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so1020690wah for ; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:38:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=oaghXfTqIRlFoOIft3hog8WoUDjmjPzEBJmBW7D7Xa0=; b=Z7wfcRzUV1sxYQdyAswjc5tPVO8WZHKqkMaJb8A1ed2p0nMJ2vNB6ytbfbUNC/YX6bYeg1gY86vYS03pDFZM8t+Itl9OGtNlf22AL1r8W6R87h8j4fcPJV4owc23XHOm+hsagwe1rc4TRGLry1fyLqtaQIHYKjgIvMscd5g7EvA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=yDnnnOe5TNwCSmR50Q64jIHWeeR+kYRPdz48781WiUbTnZz0EFsXATDspBsRDkziEzLXWn1twpTn55rerIcKqMf/Gc+Vj4vey6UIpuQWdSS9pXctEV9R3uRSRbftxFRNzjxB3is9d7P2+2goKhkSgf40RL5mcArBrJzmtFaermo= Received: by 10.115.54.1 with SMTP id g1mr2097020wak.1196962731065; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 09:38:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712060938q460982f6r68e8127bf836890e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 09:38:51 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4 In-Reply-To: <20071206170252.GR10807@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> <20071206164435.GA29246@nic.fr> <20071206170252.GR10807@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3631a69ff9bb7a62 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0803985794==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0803985794== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10615_27271000.1196962731062" ------=_Part_10615_27271000.1196962731062 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline With that change, I think all of John's suggestions look good. On Dec 6, 2007 9:02 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Stephane Bortzmeyer scripsit: > > > > 2) In 3.1.2, I'd prefer to say that implementations MUST rather than > > > SHOULD ignore undefined fields in the registry. There is no reason > > > why implementations should not be required to be liberal in what > > > they accept. > > > > I believe it would forbid a registry-checking application (like the > > one IANA should run after any change). So, it seems a bad idea. > > Fair enough. Concedo. > > -- > "Well, I'm back." --Sam John Cowan > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_10615_27271000.1196962731062 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline With that change, I think all of John's suggestions look good.

On Dec 6, 2007 9:02 AM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Stephane Bortzmeyer scripsit:

> > 2) In 3.1.2, I'd prefer to say that implementations MUST rather than
> > SHOULD ignore undefined fields in the registry.  There is no reason
> > why implementations should not be required to be liberal in what
> > they accept.
>
> I believe it would forbid a registry-checking application (like the
> one IANA should run after any change). So, it seems a bad idea.

Fair enough.  Concedo.

--
"Well, I'm back."  --Sam        John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>


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--
Mark ------=_Part_10615_27271000.1196962731062-- --===============0803985794== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0803985794==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 13:31:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0LVN-0000Rx-Mr; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:31:25 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0LVM-0000Rs-F7 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:31:24 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0LVM-0000Rk-5f for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:31:24 -0500 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0LVK-0005pE-MF for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:31:24 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071206183122.VXNQ21128.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:31:22 -0500 Message-ID: <001501c83836$33a57510$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <019801c8381e$aa177ee0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071206155801.GO10807@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:31:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: >> Description: Ardhamāgadhī Prākrit >> Description: Prākrit, Ardhamāgadhī > > Side issue. 4646bis-10 says not to include both wrapped and unwrapped > descriptions. Well, I'll be darned. It does say that, and furthermore it has said that since draft-4646bis-01 (2006-12-06, one year ago today), and furthermore I've cranked out two 4645bis drafts since that date which bogusly included inverted names. It seems I missed the memo. New draft-4645bis will be briefly delayed while I rip out the "get inverted names" logic from my program that digests the ISO 639-3 files. Thanks for catching this. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 13:47:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0LkU-0002Vn-HR; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:47:02 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0LkT-0002Vc-AS for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:47:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0LkT-0002VU-0u for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:47:01 -0500 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0LkR-0007DM-Dv for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:47:01 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:46:58 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:46:59 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: Peter Constable , "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:46:57 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg3x+T1Z0AO5gsKQFCYAS1KM2D0GwAWPAAQAAWJ7pA= Message-ID: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> <475730C6.7040903@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20071206135858.0c152aa0@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I notice that Doug and Shawn also side with Frank in wanting extlang remove= d from the ABNF. So, perhaps the chair's conclusion is slightly premature. Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 8:01 AM > To: ltru@lists.ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? > > > From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > > > I think there is (at least) rough consensus that we do not want > > to completely remove the extlang production from the ABNF in > > RFC 4646bis. (I only see Frank cleary opposing this, everybody > > else is either for it or is okay with it.) > > I will go along if no consensus can be formed to remove it, though I > still lean toward removing it. > > > > Peter > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 15:14:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0N7W-0007qT-8u; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:14:54 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0N7V-0007m1-90 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:14:53 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0N7U-0007lQ-VG for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:14:52 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0N7T-0004gg-9l for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:14:52 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0N7M-0000ve-Mj for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:14:44 +0000 Received: from c-134-89-138.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.138]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:14:44 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-138.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:14:44 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 21:16:36 +0100 Organization: Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81><30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com><47562F67.6060905@yahoo-inc.com><004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071206162427.0c17f560@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-138.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > A really cheap way out would be to put the necessary language in > RFC 4646bis, and leave RFC 4647 alone. Just an idea, probably not > a very good one, it depends on the exact text that's needed. I like "KISS". In that case 4646bis should get an "updates 4647". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 15:36:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0NSU-0002ji-Fe; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:36:34 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0NST-0002jW-Cr for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:36:33 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0NST-0002jO-3C for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:36:33 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0NSS-0006NE-Oj for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:36:33 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0NSI-0003fc-Ty for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:36:22 +0000 Received: from c-134-89-138.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.138]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:36:22 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-138.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:36:22 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 21:37:17 +0100 Organization: Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <20071203082927.GA6131@nic.fr> <6.0.0.20.2.20071206140146.0c150950@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-138.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > My understanding is that if we leave the production in the ABNF, > such tags would still be well-formed. I don't think we can have > it both ways. The tags would be well-formed but obsolete. The logic of regular vs. irregular tags is affected by . If exists, then zh-min-nan is regular, otherwise it's irregular. I think. I'm not going to explain this to anybody who asks, I'd need a flow chart to grok it. > I think we are extremely clear on the fact that we don't want=20 > anybody to generate tags with extlangs (except for a few pre- > registered ones (*)). Did you forget a footnote (*) in your article ? I'm not sure that say zh-min-nan counts as using "pre-registered extlangs", because min and nan were never registered as extlangs with prefixes zh and min resp., RFC 4646 doesn't permit this. It only reserved the possibility. OTOH zh-min-nan matches + , messy... :-( Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 16:01:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Nqp-0004O4-B9; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:01:43 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Nqn-0004Nq-V7 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:01:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Nqn-0004Nh-LY for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:01:41 -0500 Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net ([80.76.149.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Nqm-00005L-2q for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:01:41 -0500 Received: from c83-248-89-37.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.89.37]:4639 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J0Nql-000312-3H for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 22:01:39 +0100 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: References: <012701c83755$994cbc70$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Latin / "un-deprecation" / generic variants / extensions(was: Frank's comments) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 22:01:37 +0100 Message-ID: <00a501c8384b$31ea9920$2559f853@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: Acg3bdS6WGmcnkdfS4+cj+loGI16agA2dDqA X-Originating-IP: 83.248.89.37 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1J0Nql-000312-3H. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1J0Nql-000312-3H 2aa8e0ede9226d529bee24014a391d4b X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Okay, let's see some interesting "Latin" click characters. Extracts from draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-02.txt: Description: !O!ung Description: !Xóõ the "!" here should (IIUC) really be U+01C3, LATIN LETTER RETROFLEX CLICK Description: Ju/'hoan Description: N/u Description: /Gwi Description: /Xam the "/" here should (IIUC) really be U+01C0, LATIN LETTER DENTAL CLICK Description: Hai//om Description: //Ani Description: //Gana Description: //Xegwi the "//" here should (IIUC) really be U+01C1, LATIN LETTER LATERAL CLICK Description: =/Hua the "=/" here should (IIUC) really be U+01C2, LATIN LETTER ALVEOLAR CLICK Description: =/Kx'au//'ein ...appears to have three instances of ASCII fallbacks for letters... /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 16:08:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0NxN-0006hE-Hx; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:08:29 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0NxM-0006h6-Ld for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:08:28 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0NxM-0006gw-Bm for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:08:28 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0NxJ-0000i1-W0 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:08:28 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0NxE-0001Va-CB for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:08:20 +0000 Received: from c-134-89-138.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.138]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:08:20 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-138.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:08:20 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 22:10:16 +0100 Organization: Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <019801c8381e$aa177ee0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-138.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Here are the Description fields in the proposed RFC 4645bis Registry=20 > that contain non-Latin-1 characters. Thanks. Unsurprisingly the hex. NCRs "work for me", i.e. it's clear which Unicode point they refer to, for the experiment I jump to your second block (UTF-8): > * Basic Latin > * Latin-1 Supplement Oddly TUS 5.0 doesn't mention "English" in chapter 7, or I missed it. > * Latin Extended-A Note to myeelf, need to find out why Sorbian and Frisian are listed here (in TUS 5.0), and not earlier. > * Spacing Modifier Letters > * Latin Extended Additional No extended B, C, D, or IPA so far, interesting. =20 > Type: language > Subtag: gwi > Description: Gwich=CA=BCin FAIL after ch. Is that just my W2K font, or a more general issue with the glottal stop &x2BC; ? > Type: language > Subtag: nqo > Description: N=E2=80=99Ko PASS. =20 =20 > Type: language > Subtag: pmh > Description: M=C4=81h=C4=81r=C4=81=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADri Pr=C4=81krit > Description: Pr=C4=81krit, M=C4=81h=C4=81r=C4=81=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADri FAIL (twice before ri), can't do "Latin extended additional" here. > Type: script > Subtag: Ethi > Description: Ge=CA=BBez FAIL, my copy of TUS claims that &x2BB; is Hawaian, not Ethiopian. Anything else "works for me" (at the moment I can't double check it easily with other platforms) Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 18:13:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Pu4-000630-9J; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:13:12 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Pu3-00061F-8B for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:13:11 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Pu2-0005yn-Sn for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:13:10 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Pu2-0001AI-Dw for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:13:10 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A476E2BC38; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:13:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MjGU0Zx5-52R; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:13:07 +0900 (JST) Received: by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 33) id 897FD2BC36; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:13:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from 218.110.62.237 (SquirrelMail authenticated user fsasaki) by webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp with HTTP; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:13:07 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <1422.218.110.62.237.1196982787.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:13:07 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? From: "Felix Sasaki" To: "Doug Ewell" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.9a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-2022-jp X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: fsasaki@w3.org List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Peter Constable wrote: > >>> That's my whole point - the danger that specs writers might look at >>> the dropped extlang and say "they are dropping features between >>> versions of BCP 47, so we better refer to an RFC *only* and even >>> leave 'or its successor' out". >> >> But this is a key: we are *not* dropping any features. We are dropping >> the possibility of a future feature. The change to the ABNF (whether >> by removing the extlang subtag entirely or by renaming and/or >> comments) is to clean it up so that implementers do not implement for >> non-and-never-to-be-features. > > I think what Felix meant was not that we are dropping features, but tha= t > it may appear to the outside observer that we are dropping features. thank you for helping with clarifying, that is what I wanted to say. The "outside observer" will probably look at the spec and see 1) there is a conformance type "wellformed" 2) the ABNF is a part of that conformance type 3) the ABNF has changed, i.e. a production has been dropped, ergo 4) a feature has been dropped which was part of this conformance type. Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 01:26:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0WfP-0003aM-VN; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 01:26:33 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0WfO-0003Yj-Dh for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 01:26:30 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0WfO-0003YP-2T for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 01:26:30 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0WfN-0003UT-FL for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 01:26:30 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071207062629.EMSA19654.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 01:26:29 -0500 Message-ID: <00de01c8389a$1a388590$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 22:26:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Subject: [Ltru] Re: Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org When thinking about how to define "the Latin script" for purposes of meeting the requirement in RFC 4646bis, section 3.1.4, it might be useful to consider why we have such a requirement in the first place. We have generally copied Description fields for language, script, and region subtags from the respective ISO standard. The various ISO MA's and RA's generally do not go overboard in character repertoire -- in particular, ISO 639-3/RA uses ordinary ASCII punctuation in place of true click letters -- but in this case they have seen fit to use "Māhārāṣṭri Prākrit" as a language name. (I don't know what, if anything, the plain-ASCII equivalent "Maharastri Prakrit" means; I hope it's something I can say in public.) We have committed ourselves to using the names from the ISO standards. This issue mainly concerns the variant subtags. Many of the fields in the Registry are intended for some type of automated processing, but the Description is really meant for human consumption. Software certainly isn't going to do much with it, except display it. Therefore, the Description field ought to be designed with human usability in mind. While the names of languages, writing systems, countries, etc. could obviously be written in a huge variety of scripts, most humans (professional translators and linguists aside) are unlikely to be able to read more than two or three scripts, so it makes sense to impose a limit to help ensure scrutability. Because of the nature of the rest of the Registry, some familiarity with the Latin script is more or less assumed. Consequently, we imposed a requirement that every subtag have at least one Latin-script description. There is no written language on earth that uses all of the letters of the Latin script, for any reasonable definition of "Latin script" (i.e. more than just ASCII). Nevertheless, a reader can generally recognize Latin-script letters that are not part of that reader's alphabet. For example, a Francophone should be able to recognize n-tilde (ñ) as a letter belonging to the broader "Latin script" even though it is not in the narrower "French alphabet." Technical limits should not be seen as the primary concern. The problem of limited font coverage, as explained months ago to CE Whitehead, is a temporary one that will not last forever. Programs and operating systems are being localized to more and more languages, requiring more comprehensive font coverage, and rendering engines are becoming smart enough to substitute glyphs from alternative fonts instead of displaying square boxes. On the other hand, an LTRU policy that restricts "the Latin script" to an artificial subset is something that will last until some future LTRU comes around to change it. I suggest we adopt a liberal definition of "the Latin script," preferably one based on Unicode Standard Annex #24, "Script Names," rather than a narrow definition based on legacy character sets or subsets, keyboard layouts, or font coverage. These are my opinions; yours may differ. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 03:12:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0YJp-0003cE-DZ; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:12:21 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0YJn-0003XM-RK for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:12:19 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0YJi-0003Uf-3s for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:12:14 -0500 Received: from virtual3.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0YJg-0007jn-Mp for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:12:14 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 4C42C240823; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:11:56 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 244F7129CB; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:10:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:10:55 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@lists.ietf.org Message-ID: <20071207081054.GA14494@sources.org> References: <20071206084455.GA30793@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071206084455.GA30793@nic.fr> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: The blunder of the year X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 09:44:55AM +0100, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote a message of 9 lines which said: > The registry was updated yesterday (addition of many scripts like > Armi) and File-Date was *not* modified :-( It was fixed yesterday by the new update (the Suppress-Script for german languages). _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 09:18:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0e2P-00047P-64; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 09:18:45 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0e2N-00047H-OH for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 09:18:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0e2N-000479-Ed for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 09:18:43 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0e2M-0006W4-T4 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 09:18:43 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0e29-0005aP-VC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:18:29 +0000 Received: from c-134-89-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:18:29 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:18:29 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 15:20:30 +0100 Organization: Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <00de01c8389a$1a388590$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > some familiarity with the Latin script is more or less assumed. IBTD, "might help" is a different description of the situation. > There is no written language on earth that uses all of the > letters of the Latin script, for any reasonable definition of > "Latin script" (i.e. more than just ASCII). With Maori you don't need an exception for US-ASCII. The only other "reasonable" definitions I'm aware of are MES-1, Latin-1, Latin-9, and windows-1252. Not the TUS definition, that's far too theoretical. > Nevertheless, a reader can generally recognize Latin-script=20 > letters that are not part of that reader's alphabet. The odd squares representing "unsupported glyph" are not Latin, they are identical for all unsupported characters ("eating" at least all combining code points to reduce the noise, I hope) > Technical limits should not be seen as the primary concern. There's an "I" and an "E" in "IETF". Any protocol limited to Latin-1 (instead of ASCII) after RFC 2277 turned out to be a huge mistake. > The problem of limited font coverage, as explained months ago > to CE Whitehead, is a temporary one that will not last forever. It will last forever, old devices might die, cheap devices with limited capabilities won't. A cell phone in Thailand has to focus its efforts on Thai, it can't afford to handle u+02BB. And the W2K on my box is no Thai cell phone, like CE Whitehead's Win98, like my old OS/2 Warp. I could check if u+02BB belongs to the OS/2 glyph list, and I can guarantee that this list will never be "upgraded", OS/2 is a historic 32bits OS not more actively developped. We don't need to talk about "PC DOS 7", ancient Minix / Linux distributions, or similar platforms, but anything used on mobile devices matters. > On the other hand, an LTRU policy that restricts "the Latin=20 > script" to an artificial subset is something that will last > until some future LTRU comes around to change it. My proposal was to pull the "Latin REQUIRED" as utter dubious. Limitations to some "reasonable" subset (i.e. without u+02BB) would be shaky, unless they are very radical (windows-1252 or less). Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 10:56:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0fZA-0005bp-5v; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 10:56:40 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0fZ8-0005bj-Ln for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 10:56:38 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0fZ8-0005ba-CI for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 10:56:38 -0500 Received: from mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.29]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0fZ6-0004xl-VH for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 10:56:38 -0500 Received: (qmail 92568 messnum 4530228 invoked from network[194.125.205.58/ts07-058.dublin.indigo.ie]); 7 Dec 2007 15:56:34 -0000 Received: from ts07-058.dublin.indigo.ie (HELO ?194.125.205.58?) (194.125.205.58) by mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 92568) with SMTP; 7 Dec 2007 15:56:34 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: <20071204112939.GA13475@nic.fr> <20071204190505.GF15972@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041852g629e904n588738e8373cea26@mail.gmail.com> <20071205033042.GA10807@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712041936w4a472416ibdbeeda192629c9e@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712041949k4cb44ed1m9065459707a2872d@mail.gmail.com> <20071205040035.GD10807@mercury.ccil.org> <47562BE6.5080003@w3.org> <475730C6.7040903@yahoo-inc.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20071206135858.0c152aa0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marion Gunn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 15:57:58 +0000 To: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.728) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On 6 Dec 2007, at 18:46, scrIobh Peter Constable: > I notice that Doug and Shawn also side with Frank in wanting =20 > extlang removed from the ABNF. So, perhaps the chair's conclusion =20 > is slightly premature. > > > Peter It would certainly seem to be premature, Peter, which I say right now =20= because so do I (side with Frank and Doug and Shawn on this =20 particular issue, most definitely). mg -- Marion Gunn mgunn@ucd.ie - - Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 13:38:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0i5d-0006Sd-Rr; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 13:38:21 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0i5c-0006SW-Qt for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 13:38:20 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0i5c-0006SN-HO for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 13:38:20 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0i5a-00010M-UM for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 13:38:20 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071207183817.KJQ20723.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:38:17 -0500 Message-ID: <01fd01c83900$557bf770$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:38:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Subject: [Ltru] Re: Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> Nevertheless, a reader can generally recognize Latin-script letters >> that are not part of that reader's alphabet. > > The odd squares representing "unsupported glyph" are not Latin, they > are identical for all unsupported characters ("eating" at least all > combining code points to reduce the noise, I hope) I'm assuming the letters are rendered correctly, of course, not as boxes. "Eating" (i.e. not displaying) all combining characters following a non-displayed base letter is probably non-conformant, but as this isn't the Unicode list, I won't pursue that. >> Technical limits should not be seen as the primary concern. > > There's an "I" and an "E" in "IETF". "The field 'Description' contains a description of the tag or subtag in the record.... The 'Description' field is used for identification purposes and SHOULD NOT be taken to represent the actual native name of the language or variation or to be in any particular language." This is neither "Internet" nor "engineering." It is about an informative text field for humans to read and understand. > Any protocol limited to Latin-1 (instead of ASCII) after RFC 2277 > turned out to be a huge mistake. I'm not the one proposing to limit anything to Latin-1. >> The problem of limited font coverage, as explained months ago to CE >> Whitehead, is a temporary one that will not last forever. > > It will last forever, old devices might die, cheap devices with > limited capabilities won't. A cell phone in Thailand has to focus its > efforts on Thai, it can't afford to handle u+02BB. Is the Language Subtag Registry meant to be read on cell phone browsers? WG members, you have Frank's take on this matter and my take on this matter. Please discuss it and come up with some proposed wording for RFC 4646bis for which the co-chairs can declare rough consensus. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 14:50:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jD7-0004D1-5k; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:50:09 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jD6-0004Ct-29 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:50:08 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jD5-0004Ck-Ls for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:50:07 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.183]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jD4-0004cX-Ez for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:50:07 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so2325108wah for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 11:50:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=GYh3diNu8m958kkB+cT1Fw/zCNX85bh4J+hLkB/QH6k=; b=Ez6fnMUSJBAgK7hdgNqTwpvtjfp+AMXKmjDEvjB2mBJFc5jcy2cSl8W6RfTqKhgBEPwG44GvFM+lXWQ+8mAMAe2EiwxlbKRjahsuNrvK3pwkp0w1dmPBIHV9nnCcvfzbXzD4qquoZXKDhCCTUntCRlVJ7KUHvjeMm66sCIzw5Gk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=gO3kaznsCb3HCxSP1qv8oHCtac/08PoqpIM7qmPIjBd9GvcOiGvwNkPrz7EwJv3mlHxhftzTbJlSb6DSanX58tfZ2ZR1qMCxMq/AzvGzY9GbwWJHt8Nj2Cnv504voeAIFrzFovdo7/ep3pr8anWpa1ZxAB0NRa4oxwCaijY67Bs= Received: by 10.114.195.19 with SMTP id s19mr2576403waf.1197057004642; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 11:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 11:50:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712071150h50a4d386h6954c25fb4331c75@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 11:50:04 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis In-Reply-To: <01fd01c83900$557bf770$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01fd01c83900$557bf770$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: e0199f9845f6e91c X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1917341750==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1917341750== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17164_7690649.1197057004638" ------=_Part_17164_7690649.1197057004638 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SSBmYXZvciBEb3VnJ3MgcG9zaXRpb246ICJMYXRpbiIgbWVhbmluZyBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzIHdpdGgg dGhlIExhdGluIHNjcmlwdAoob3IgQ29tbW9uIG9yIEluaGVyaXRlZCkgYWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIHRo ZSBVbmljb2RlIHByb3BlcnRpZXMuCgpNYXJrCgoKT24gRGVjIDcsIDIwMDcgMTA6MzggQU0sIERv dWcgRXdlbGwgPGRld2VsbEByb2FkcnVubmVyLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IEZyYW5rIEVsbGVybWFu biA8bm9ib2R5IGF0IHh5enp5IGRvdCBjbGFyYW5ldCBkb3QgZGU+IHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4gPj4gTmV2 ZXJ0aGVsZXNzLCBhIHJlYWRlciBjYW4gZ2VuZXJhbGx5IHJlY29nbml6ZSBMYXRpbi1zY3JpcHQg bGV0dGVycwo+ID4+IHRoYXQgYXJlIG5vdCBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoYXQgcmVhZGVyJ3MgYWxwaGFiZXQu 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esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jSu-0003Wf-LA for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:06:28 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jSs-00062a-NW for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:06:28 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jSh-0000i4-Th for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:06:15 +0000 Received: from c-134-89-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:06:15 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:06:15 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 21:08:13 +0100 Organization: Lines: 69 Message-ID: References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > I suggest adding this to 2.2.6 (extensions) after the first sentence: >| They are intended to identify information which is commonly used >| in association with language tags but is not part of language >| identification. The intro says that language tags are about identifying languages, I don't see why extensions should be limited to "non-identification". > In 2.2, the term "code" is defined to refer to a value defined in an > external standard. We should, pervasively throughout the document, > change this to "code element", which is proper ISO terminology. It used to be "code" already in RFC 1766. I see no reason to change this to "proper ISO terminology" when the shorthand is unambiguous. =20 > For ISO, "code" means the whole list. For the IETF it doesn't necessarily, so far. =20 > 2.2.4(3)(C) uses the phrase "with ambiguous ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes". > This is not very clear to those who don't know the history, and should > be expanded to something like "whose alpha-2 code was formerly (since > ) associated with a different country". Someone will have to > look up what the cutoff date was -- I forget. 2005-10-16 is the Filedate in the last 4645 draft, was that "date B" ? I think 2.2.4(3)(C) is about codes deprecated after "date A" and later reused for a *different* country. Maybe without "different" qualifier, as Doug read it. BTW, 2.2.4(3)(E) talks about 4645 instead of 4645bis, and I think it's not more needed after Debbie registered GG and JE. > 3.1.1: change the definition of folding to "Folding is always > done on Unicode default grapheme boundaries". AFAIK the normal (2822upd) definition of folding is "at places where WSP is allowed", and unfolding means "replace FWS by SP". No grapheme boundaries involved. If 4646bis tries to invent its own folding rules this should be better explained. 4646bis shouldn't expose such Unicode oddities, checking my own code: | #### unfold field body ############################################ | /^[\t ]/ { BODY =3D BODY " " STRIP( $0 ) | next | } That replaces FWS by one SP, I'm almost certain that I don't want=20 an SP between the "graphemes" of a "folded word". > also prohibits folding in the middle of a Hangul syllable > written as separate jamo. Do they have "WSP separated words", or is there a serious chance of more than 72-1 adjacent bytes belonging to one or more graphemes ? Talking about "bytes" in conjunction with UTF-8 makes me nervous. > Hands up all those who can say the official name of the > U.S. without looking it up. The CIA world fact book claims I hit the "conventional long form" - maybe "official" isn't the same as "conventional". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 15:07:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jU5-0004LY-LR; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:07:41 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jU4-0004LC-EO for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:07:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jU4-0004L2-4c for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:07:40 -0500 Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jU3-000676-PN for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:07:40 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=To1E6Ph889qx4p+4g3geitIMJ5T5ZCIFM37TCNi7KvmYQle/hLxgqtXOP0R0Kz0K; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.34.95] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1J0jU1-0006br-55 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:07:37 -0500 Message-ID: <001001c8390d$18576d40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:09:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a4beb055f130b31a096d8ac37c4fb706c14174237f9d4df3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.34.95 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] clause 2.2.5 (1) in 4646bis draft X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... RFC 4646 and internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09.txt Clause 2.2.5. (1) say: 1. Variant subtags are not associated with any external standard. Variant subtags and their meanings are defined by the registration process defined in Section 3.5. One could read this to mean that if there is an "external standard" for something, it would consequently be ineligible for a variant subtag. I'd hope that it's simply a bad choice of words variant subtags associated with external standards (e.g., the German orthographic reforms) are very useful things.) Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 15:15:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jbm-0003p4-5K; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:15:38 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jbl-0003ox-67 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:15:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jbk-0003op-Sb for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:15:36 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jbk-0006c3-6x for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:15:36 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB7KFQCa032619; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:15:26 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RiMdA60GhDBCmS6dpUE9K8594l5y9fHt7rsoRjEQRNnGfcfFQjYlw4D2Xqoh3nGf Message-ID: <4759A9DE.2060802@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 12:15:26 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn Subject: Re: [Ltru] clause 2.2.5 (1) in 4646bis draft References: <001001c8390d$18576d40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001001c8390d$18576d40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > 1. Variant subtags are not associated with any external standard. > Variant subtags and their meanings are defined by the > registration process defined in Section 3.5. > > One could read this to mean that if there is an "external standard" > for something, it would consequently be ineligible for a > variant subtag. I'd hope that it's simply a bad choice of words > variant subtags associated with external standards (e.g., the German > orthographic reforms) are very useful things.) > How about: -- 1. Variant subtags, as a collection, are not associated with any particular external standard. The meaning of variant subtags in the registry is defined in the course of the registration process defined in Section 3.5. Note that any particular variant subtag might be associated with some external standard. However, association with a standard is not required for registration. -- Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 15:20:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jg3-0005rJ-Il; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:20:03 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jg2-0005rC-FR for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:20:02 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jg2-0005r4-4w for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:20:02 -0500 Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0jg1-0006VV-S4 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:20:02 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=g6n1iOdX8E5aTQyPg6l8dZ8FnNny45ZnTS1nn9Ao1kv694AfHFieh+AY6MD63wCp; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.34.95] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1J0jg1-0003fn-3y for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:20:01 -0500 Message-ID: <004201c8390e$d3bf15a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001001c8390d$18576d40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4759A9DE.2060802@yahoo-inc.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] clause 2.2.5 (1) in 4646bis draft Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:22:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a4beb055f130b31a9a4ff07606c1cd0b1506ad7d676a93e6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.34.95 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a techincal contributor... The proposed text is fine with me. Randy > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 12:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] clause 2.2.5 (1) in 4646bis draft ... > How about: > > -- > 1. Variant subtags, as a collection, are not associated with any > particular external standard. The meaning of variant subtags in the > registry is defined in the course of the registration process defined in > Section 3.5. Note that any particular variant subtag might be associated > with some external standard. However, association with a standard is not > required for registration. > -- > > Addison ... _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 15:54:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kDF-0002JC-5b; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:54:21 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kDD-0002Fj-7R for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:54:19 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kDC-0002Fb-So for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:54:18 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kDC-0001Bl-0X for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:54:18 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB7Ks1gC035062; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:54:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YKDzyorLg2pzimGQ2kmnwNiMF9b4srZsqcRhpP59ymrddjKU9Y3i4ZxONWpme9xi Message-ID: <4759B2E9.5000106@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 12:54:01 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] (editor response) Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4 References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 25eb6223a37c19d53ede858176b14339 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Notes follow indicating incorporation into draft-11 editor's copy. After I figure out the insta-submit process and do other housekeeping, look for it in draft-11. My disposition of these edits as follows. John Cowan wrote: > Yet another freakin' de novo review of 4646bis draft 10, sections 1 > through 3.4. More review will follow. The following two changes are > substantive: > > 1) I suggest adding this to 2.2.6 (extensions) after the first sentence: > > They are intended to identify information which is commonly used > in association with language tags but is not part of language > identification. Done, with a minor edit. Paragraph reads: -- Extensions provide a mechanism for extending language tags for use in various applications. They are intended to identify information which is commonly used in association with languages or language tags, but which are not part of language identification. See . The following rules apply to extensions: -- > > 2) In 3.1.2, I'd prefer to say that implementations MUST rather than > SHOULD ignore undefined fields in the registry. There is no reason why > implementations should not be required to be liberal in what they accept. While I agree with the sentiment, you and I accept Stephane's reading later in this thread. Not incorporated. > > > The remaining changes are all editorial: > > In 2.2, the term "code" is defined to refer to a value defined in an > external standard. We should, pervasively throughout the document, > change this to "code element", which is proper ISO terminology. (For ISO, > "code" means the whole list.) Argh. I tried to do this, but: 1. The names of the ISO standards use the word "code" or "codes" 2. The quote from ISO 639RA/JAC uses the word "code" 3. Using the term "code element" was really REALLY ugly... it made the prose even more stiff and pedantic. So I backed the change out. Not incorporated. If you feel strongly about this, let's discuss on the list. > > The final graf in 2.2 should be bulleted like its predecessors. Done. > > In 2.2.x, there are numbered points like "X subtags MUST follow any > ... subtags and MUST precede any ... subtags". The numbers used are #2 in > 2.2.3, #1 in 2.2.4, #2 in 2.2.5, #9 in 2.2.6, #3 in 2.2.7. These should > all be moved to #1 in each list, and minor wording variations removed. Done. I used the form: Region subtags MUST follow any language or script subtags and MUST precede any other type of subtag. (where the name of the subtag is changed along with the list of preceding subtags) > > 2.2.4(3)(C) uses the phrase "with ambiguous ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes". > This is not very clear to those who don't know the history, and should > be expanded to something like "whose alpha-2 code was formerly (since > ) associated with a different country". Someone will have to > look up what the cutoff date was -- I forget. The is actually the Date C rule. That is, it covers UN M.49 codes for countries whose code has been reused by ISO 3166. At present, there are none of these. So... I reworked the graf to: UN numeric codes for countries or areas which are assigned ISO 3166 alpha2 codes already present in the registry, MUST be defined according to the rules in and MUST be used to form language tags that represent the country or region for which they are defined. This happens when ISO 3166 reassigns a code formerly used for one country to another. > > 2.2.5: s/suitable to form/suitable for forming/ 1 occurrence replaced. > > 2.2.8: s/current registered/currently registered/ ditto > > 3.1.1: change the definition of folding to "Folding is always done on > Unicode default grapheme boundaries". That says what the current text > says, and also prohibits folding in the middle of a Hangul syllable > written as separate jamo. :: shiver :: Yes, I know. (laughing) I hoped to avoid implementing it in record-jar though. But you're right. The sentence was rewritten as follows, to include the example: Folding is always done on Unicode default grapheme boundaries (that is, never in the middle of a multibyte UTF-8 sequence nor in the middle of a combining character sequence). > > 3.1.2: In the explanation of "Preferred-Value", the first two bullet > points say "Preferred-Value contains" but the third does not. Done. > > 3.1.3: "The 'Subtag' field MUST use lowercase letters" says too much; > it implicitly forbids digits. What is meant is "The 'Subtag' field > MUST NOT use uppercase letters". Adding "all" before "uppercase" in > the sentence about region subtags will clarify it. Done. > > 3.1.4: s/For records taken/For subtags taken/. Done. > > 3.1.4: s/English localized names/localized English names/. Done. > > 3.1.7: s/a prefix a prefix/a prefix/. Done. > > 3.1.4: it's not about countries changing their official names, as official > names aren't even in the registry. (Hands up all those who can say the > official name of the U.S. without looking it up.) Remove "official". Done. > > 3.4(16): s/should it be possible/should it become possible/. > Done. -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 16:16:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kYZ-0004wd-5i; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:16:23 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kYY-0004th-6B for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:16:22 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kYX-0004tZ-Sr for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:16:21 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kYX-00035J-FL for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:16:21 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J0kYX-000897-5q for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:16:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:16:21 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20071207211621.GB3346@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Subject: [Ltru] Review of 4646bis-10: registration authorities X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Throughout 4646bis-10 there is confusion between "registration authority", "maintenance authority", "maintenance agency", and "maintaining authority". Technically, in ISO a registration authority has discretion to choose which code elements it registers and which it does not, whereas a maintenance agency tracks what other organizations do. ISO 639 has registration authorities, and ISO 15942 has one; but ISO 3166 has a maintenance agency, because it can only register the countries that UNSD assigns numerical codes to. I think these are all the affected places: 2.2.1: remove the words "or governing standardization bodies" from points 1 and 2; the whole point of the RA is so that ISO doesn't have to do registration itself. 2.2.3: s/maintenance agency/registration authority/. 2.2.6 (6): s/maintaining authority/registration authority/ (for extensions) 3.4 (13): s/maintenance or registration authority/registration authority or maintenance agency/ 3.4 (14) (B): for "ISO 639 maintenance agency/registration authority (MA/RA) has" read "The ISO 639 registration authorities have". 3.4 (15): s/registration authority for ISO 3166/maintenance agency for ISO 3166/. 3.6: s/maintenance agency/registration authority/ for all 639-* standards. 3.7: s/maintaining or registering authority/registration authority/. Follow this sentence with a parenthetical sentence saying: (For this purpose, the term "registration authority" includes maintenance agencies.) 3.7: s/maintaining authority/registration authority/ (several places). 5.2: s/maintaining authority/registration authority/ (2 places). -- All Gaul is divided into three parts: the part John Cowan that cooks with lard and goose fat, the part http://ccil.org/~cowan that cooks with olive oil, and the part that cowan@ccil.org cooks with butter. -- David Chessler _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 16:30:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kmI-00053I-Gk; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:30:34 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kmH-000535-E2 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:30:33 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kmH-00052x-4Y for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:30:33 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kmG-0004Jf-IF for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:30:33 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB7LUEDD037375; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:30:15 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=n4V3E0mTnFDCm8ClMSHlR5FrJ+KLQ3GT1fQGV3lLTmjBliLkIeZOc6A/iY3EXcPW Message-ID: <4759BB66.8010600@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 13:30:14 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4 References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com id lB7LUEDD037375 X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >=20 >> 3.1.1: change the definition of folding to "Folding is always >> done on Unicode default grapheme boundaries". >=20 > AFAIK the normal (2822upd) definition of folding is "at places > where WSP is allowed", and unfolding means "replace FWS by SP". >=20 > No grapheme boundaries involved. If 4646bis tries to invent > its own folding rules this should be better explained. 4646bis > shouldn't expose such Unicode oddities, checking my own code: >=20 > | #### unfold field body ############################################ > | /^[\t ]/ { BODY =3D BODY " " STRIP( $0 ) > | next > | } >=20 > That replaces FWS by one SP, I'm almost certain that I don't want=20 > an SP between the "graphemes" of a "folded word". Except... our record-jar format (and this document) doesn't follow that=20 rule. In particular, if we permit the folding (which is done by people=20 and not machines, in the case of the registry) to occur mid-grapheme, it=20 will break the character. For example, if you were to put U+0065 U+0300 as a sequence and the fold=20 occurred between those two characters, the result would be U+0065 U+0020=20 U+0300, or e =CC=80 (e followed by accent) rather than =C3=A8. IOW> the registry is supposed to be viewable and readable as a=20 plain-text (UTF-8) file. And note that my record-jar draft goes further and suppresses the=20 addition of the space on unfolding (at the cost of complicating the=20 syntax slightly with a line-continuation character). >=20 >> also prohibits folding in the middle of a Hangul syllable >> written as separate jamo. >=20 > Do they have "WSP separated words", or is there a serious > chance of more than 72-1 adjacent bytes belonging to one > or more graphemes ?=20 They don't have WSP separated words in Korean, typically. This also=20 applies to other languages, such as Thai, that also use combining=20 sequences. There is no real (only theoretical) danger of 72-1 adjacent=20 bytes belonging on ONLY one grapheme. > Talking about "bytes" in conjunction > with UTF-8 makes me nervous. Why so? UTF-8 is a multibyte character encoding. So it's code unit is=20 the byte. When we speak of counting things, it is good to know what is=20 being counted. In this case, we count bytes, but ensure that breaks=20 occur between characters, indeed, with John's suggestion, between=20 *visual* "characters", aka graphemes. Addison --=20 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 16:38:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ktR-0002mZ-NH; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:37:57 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ktR-0002mK-5j for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:37:57 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ktQ-0002mC-SX for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:37:56 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ktQ-0004rb-CM for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:37:56 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J0ktQ-000164-7c for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:37:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:37:56 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Subject: [Ltru] Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Here's the rest of my review, except for the macrolanguage section of 4.1, which is in a separate posting. There is only one substantive point: 5.1: does ietf-languages-announcements really exist, and does IANA really announce to it? The rest are editorial: 3.5: s/all other fields/any other fields/. 3.5: remove single-sentence graf about extended language subtags. 3.5: draft has both "publicly" and "publically" in different places; both are orthographically acceptable, but pick one and stick to it. 3.5: s/language is registered/language is already registered/. 3.8: rename section to "Replacement of the Language Subtag Registry"; s/update/replacement/; s/updated/replacement/. 3.8: s/Once published/Once the registry is published/. 4.1: s/Sometimes there is a choice/There is always a choice/, which is much nearer the truth. 4.1: s/thus not be selected/thus will not be selected/. 4.1: s/zh-cmn/cmn/ (twice). 4.4: The definition of "canonical form" here shouldn't have MUSTard in it; a definition is just a definition and shouldn't have any modal verbs. Point 2, s/SHOULD be/are/. Point 3, /MUST be/are/. Point 4, same as 3. 4.5: suggested rewrite of grafs 1-3: The value and semantic meaning of private use tags and of the subtags used within such a language tag are not defined by this document. Like all other subtags, they MUST conform to the format and content constraints in the ABNF. They have no meaning outside the private agreement between the parties that intend to use or exchange language tags that employ them, and so are are simply useless for information exchange without prior arrangement. The same subtags MAY be used with a different meaning under a separate private agreement. They SHOULD NOT be used where alternatives exist and SHOULD NOT be used in content or protocols intended for general use. However, a language tag which combines private use subtags with other subtags conveys more information that a purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. For some applications, this additional information MAY be useful. 5.1: s/update the registry/replace the existing registry in its entirety/. 7: s/rendering engines sometimes use/rendering engines MAY use/. 8 [record-jar]: add "chapter 5". Appendix B: divide final section into "Some Invalid Tags" and "Some Ill-Formed Tags". My suggestions for invalid tags are xxx-Defg-HQ, de-1996-1996, en-nedis, and ar-a-aaa-b-bbb-a-ccc. My suggestions for ill-formed tags are de-419-DE, en-nuspelling, a-de, and perhaps a few more. Appendix C: change title to "Sample Registration Form". -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org In might the Feanorians / that swore the unforgotten oath brought war into Arvernien / with burning and with broken troth. and Elwing from her fastness dim / then cast her in the waters wide, but like a mew was swiftly borne, / uplifted o'er the roaring tide. --the Earendillinwe _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 16:39:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kut-0003Kx-LS; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:39:27 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kus-0003Kq-Ry for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:39:26 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kus-0003Ki-H4 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:39:26 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0kur-00056J-UW for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:39:26 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB7LcbaP037888; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:38:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pHCtb4+Q9N9rmkwOJh4ObukquyH3bjHnnDIrE1lWWqsjPNk4zOXxIG9azvQBzHon Message-ID: <4759BD5D.7050107@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 13:38:37 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis References: <01fd01c83900$557bf770$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712071150h50a4d386h6954c25fb4331c75@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712071150h50a4d386h6954c25fb4331c75@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Actually, I favor leaving the text alone. It currently doesn't define what "Latin script" means, on the assumption that the LSR and ietf-languages (at registration time) or Doug (at 4645bis time) can figure it out. We can discuss what it means for 4645bis purposes, but we already had consensus on this for 4646, let alone now. It might turn out that this paragraph actually means "US-ASCII7" in practice. Note also that we allow for multiple description fields, in case we want multiple representations. Addison Mark Davis wrote: > I favor Doug's position: "Latin" meaning characters with the Latin > script (or Common or Inherited) according to the Unicode properties. > > Mark > > > On Dec 7, 2007 10:38 AM, Doug Ewell < dewell@roadrunner.com > > wrote: > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > >> Nevertheless, a reader can generally recognize Latin-script letters > >> that are not part of that reader's alphabet. > > > > The odd squares representing "unsupported glyph" are not Latin, they > > are identical for all unsupported characters ("eating" at least all > > combining code points to reduce the noise, I hope) > > I'm assuming the letters are rendered correctly, of course, not as > boxes. > > "Eating" (i.e. not displaying) all combining characters following a > non-displayed base letter is probably non-conformant, but as this isn't > the Unicode list, I won't pursue that. > > >> Technical limits should not be seen as the primary concern. > > > > There's an "I" and an "E" in "IETF". > > "The field 'Description' contains a description of the tag or subtag in > the record.... The 'Description' field is used for identification > purposes and SHOULD NOT be taken to represent the actual native name of > the language or variation or to be in any particular language." > > This is neither "Internet" nor "engineering." It is about an > informative text field for humans to read and understand. > > > Any protocol limited to Latin-1 (instead of ASCII) after RFC 2277 > > turned out to be a huge mistake. > > I'm not the one proposing to limit anything to Latin-1. > > >> The problem of limited font coverage, as explained months ago to CE > >> Whitehead, is a temporary one that will not last forever. > > > > It will last forever, old devices might die, cheap devices with > > limited capabilities won't. A cell phone in Thailand has to > focus its > > efforts on Thai, it can't afford to handle u+02BB. > > Is the Language Subtag Registry meant to be read on cell phone > browsers? > > WG members, you have Frank's take on this matter and my take on this > matter. Please discuss it and come up with some proposed wording for > RFC 4646bis for which the co-chairs can declare rough consensus. > > -- -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 16:56:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0lAu-0007MN-O5; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:56:00 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0lAt-00078z-Pt for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:55:59 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0lAt-0006zb-5c for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:55:59 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0lAs-0006i4-JC for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:55:59 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J0lAr-0002K2-Qi for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:55:57 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:55:57 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Subject: [Ltru] Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Because of the thicket of rewordings in this part, I'm just presenting my suggested revised text here. It's very important to make sure that we don't talk about "dialects" or "sub-languages" here. Also, I've used "Macrolanguage" for the header only, but "macrolanguage" for the languages. The affected text begins "Languages with a Macrolanguage field" and ends "did not specify zh-Hans-CN in their request.)". Some of the languages in the registry are labeled "macrolanguages" by ISO 639-3, which defines the term as "clusters of closely-related language varieties that [...] can be considered distinct individual languages, yet in certain usage contexts a single language identity for all is needed". These correspond to codes registered in ISO 639-2 as single languages that were found to correspond to more than one language in ISO 639-3. The languages encompassed by a macrolanguage contain a Macrolanguage header in the registry; the macrolanguages themselves are not specially marked. It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to tag an encompassed language using the subtag for its macrolanguage. However, the Macrolanguage field doesn't define what the relationship is between the encompassed language and its macrolanguage, nor does it define how languages encompassed by the same macrolanguage are related to each other. In some cases, In some cases, one of the encompassed languages serves as a standard form for the entire macrolanguage and is frequently identified with it; in other cases there is no dominant language, and the macrolanguage simply serves as a cover term for the entire group. Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching or language negotiation. For example, the information that 'sr' (Serbian) and 'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses a closer relation between those languages than between, say, 'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian). It is valid to use the subtag of the encompassed language or of the macrolanguage to form language tags. However, many matching applications will not be aware of the relationship between the languages. Care in selecting which subtags are used is crucial to interoperability. In general, use the most specific tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from the dominant language variety. In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most languages having 'zh' as a macrolanguage (and because historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without losing the script and region information (even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Any day you get all five woodpeckers is a good day. --Elliotte Rusty Harold _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 17:54:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0m5P-0001yv-4C; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:54:23 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0m5O-0001yo-8V for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:54:22 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0m5N-0001ye-S6 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:54:21 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.179]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0m5M-0003qa-NQ for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:54:21 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so2427393wah for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:54:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=xROFqdT6+pt8KqztNPDHaVFvxbyZs7Z/9VHMYT0T0oA=; b=feaqlgfYUQdAvJWdDwj1wZ4BQnwE1VbBWo1OKjCmwMzY/xWqLI7LGcb+gj4KFhkXfURPfTmFM7yNxwQytKco9Jz/vXBrcoo2PjJKcOAIlR3wSP6T448wWaerk1gz7+dFX9MrKWvcr2xQlO8kKWH+w/6eXip+bTKGjzCKjVQr+gc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Ev9DUwvLcC0dq7P5ixMG3eICqMj2ZwzPI1CXyKGPJKLD8GpeuW2ShNwigoSvhXzvQqAQIphgKZYG/KK7+UmWb7uBTO23idj+1LNevtopkvWFTUNxqZDEEJvV5wPXpLa77okKSMu19xLGdoEM93HBdGZjLdks/JME38VK3cHgOEQ= Received: by 10.115.93.16 with SMTP id v16mr3731889wal.1197068059800; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 14:54:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712071454p26420ea9qda3f5600ae323dcc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 14:54:19 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 In-Reply-To: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 71b6abc22048a3a1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0224816859==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0224816859== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17717_29708934.1197068059791" ------=_Part_17717_29708934.1197068059791 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline LGTM On Dec 7, 2007 1:55 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Because of the thicket of rewordings in this part, I'm just presenting > my suggested revised text here. It's very important to make sure > that we don't talk about "dialects" or "sub-languages" here. Also, > I've used "Macrolanguage" for the header only, but "macrolanguage" > for the languages. > > The affected text begins "Languages with a Macrolanguage field" and ends > "did not specify zh-Hans-CN in their request.)". > > Some of the languages in the registry are labeled > "macrolanguages" by ISO 639-3, which defines the term as > "clusters of closely-related language varieties that [...] can > be considered distinct individual languages, yet in certain > usage contexts a single language identity for all is needed". > These correspond to codes registered in ISO 639-2 as single > languages that were found to correspond to more than one language > in ISO 639-3. The languages encompassed by a macrolanguage > contain a Macrolanguage header in the registry; the macrolanguages > themselves are not specially marked. > > It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to tag an > encompassed language using the subtag for its macrolanguage. > However, the Macrolanguage field doesn't define what the > relationship is between the encompassed language and its > macrolanguage, nor does it define how languages encompassed by the > same macrolanguage are related to each other. In some cases, In > some cases, one of the encompassed languages serves as a standard > form for the entire macrolanguage and is frequently identified > with it; in other cases there is no dominant language, and the > macrolanguage simply serves as a cover term for the entire group. > > Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching > or language negotiation. For example, the information that 'sr' > (Serbian) and 'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses > a closer relation between those languages than between, say, > 'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian). It is valid to use the > subtag of the encompassed language or of the macrolanguage to > form language tags. However, many matching applications will > not be aware of the relationship between the languages. Care in > selecting which subtags are used is crucial to interoperability. > > In general, use the most specific tag. However, where the > macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a dominant > encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag > specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary > to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from the > dominant language variety. > > In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special > consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most > languages having 'zh' as a macrolanguage (and because historically > subtags for the various encompassed languages were not available), > languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used > either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. > This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully > applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks > in language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' > has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm > to fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" > without losing the script and region information (even though > the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Any day you get all five woodpeckers is a good day. --Elliotte Rusty > Harold > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_17717_29708934.1197068059791 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline LGTM

On Dec 7, 2007 1:55 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Because of the thicket of rewordings in this part, I'm just presenting
my suggested revised text here.  It's very important to make sure
that we don't talk about "dialects" or "sub-languages" here.  Also,
I've used "Macrolanguage" for the header only, but "macrolanguage"
for the languages.

The affected text begins "Languages with a Macrolanguage field" and ends
"did not specify zh-Hans-CN in their request.)".

       Some of the languages in the registry are labeled
       "macrolanguages" by ISO 639-3, which defines the term as
       "clusters of closely-related language varieties that [...] can
       be considered distinct individual languages, yet in certain
       usage contexts a single language identity for all is needed".
       These correspond to codes registered in ISO 639-2 as single
       languages that were found to correspond to more than one language
       in ISO 639-3.  The languages encompassed by a macrolanguage
       contain a Macrolanguage header in the registry; the macrolanguages
       themselves are not specially marked.

       It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to tag an
       encompassed language using the subtag for its macrolanguage.
       However, the Macrolanguage field doesn't define what the
       relationship is between the encompassed language and its
       macrolanguage, nor does it define how languages encompassed by the
       same macrolanguage are related to each other.  In some cases, In
       some cases, one of the encompassed languages serves as a standard
       form for the entire macrolanguage and is frequently identified
       with it; in other cases there is no dominant language, and the
       macrolanguage simply serves as a cover term for the entire group.

       Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching
       or language negotiation.  For example, the information that 'sr'
       (Serbian) and 'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses
       a closer relation between those languages than between, say,
       'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian).  It is valid to use the
       subtag of the encompassed language or of the macrolanguage to
       form language tags.  However, many matching applications will
       not be aware of the relationship between the languages.  Care in
       selecting which subtags are used is crucial to interoperability.

       In general, use the most specific tag.  However, where the
       macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a dominant
       encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag
       specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary
       to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from the
       dominant language variety.

       In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
       consideration.  Because the written form is very similar for most
       languages having 'zh' as a macrolanguage (and because historically
       subtags for the various encompassed languages were not available),
       languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used
       either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'.
       This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully
       applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks
       in language negotiation.  For example, the information that 'yue'
       has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm
       to fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN"
       without losing the script and region information (even though
       the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request).

--
John Cowan              cowan@ccil.org           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Any day you get all five woodpeckers is a good day.  --Elliotte Rusty Harold


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_17717_29708934.1197068059791-- --===============0224816859== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0224816859==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 18:18:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0mSo-0000Ai-Um; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 18:18:34 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0mSn-00009C-44 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 18:18:33 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0mSm-000094-QZ for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 18:18:32 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0mSm-0005KY-0v for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 18:18:32 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lB7NIFKo073782; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 15:18:15 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MKYpjMmt/LPhWsMSLBXKXeR1tdwHP9J1rhKLHNeevZQ63pYSpQZpEFk2qrTIoahK Message-ID: <4759D4B5.6090309@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:18:13 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Firstly, let me express my Deep Annoyance at getting emails with proposed text with line breaks and big wads of whitespace in front of each line. Yes, a regular expression will tame the beast, but I'd prefer to cut-and-paste a bit more :-) I incorporated the below with only very minor tidying. Addison John Cowan wrote: > Because of the thicket of rewordings in this part, I'm just presenting > my suggested revised text here. It's very important to make sure > that we don't talk about "dialects" or "sub-languages" here. Also, > I've used "Macrolanguage" for the header only, but "macrolanguage" > for the languages. > > The affected text begins "Languages with a Macrolanguage field" and ends > "did not specify zh-Hans-CN in their request.)". > > Some of the languages in the registry are labeled > "macrolanguages" by ISO 639-3, which defines the term as > "clusters of closely-related language varieties that [...] can > be considered distinct individual languages, yet in certain > usage contexts a single language identity for all is needed". > These correspond to codes registered in ISO 639-2 as single > languages that were found to correspond to more than one language > in ISO 639-3. The languages encompassed by a macrolanguage > contain a Macrolanguage header in the registry; the macrolanguages > themselves are not specially marked. > > It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to tag an > encompassed language using the subtag for its macrolanguage. > However, the Macrolanguage field doesn't define what the > relationship is between the encompassed language and its > macrolanguage, nor does it define how languages encompassed by the > same macrolanguage are related to each other. In some cases, In > some cases, one of the encompassed languages serves as a standard > form for the entire macrolanguage and is frequently identified > with it; in other cases there is no dominant language, and the > macrolanguage simply serves as a cover term for the entire group. > > Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching > or language negotiation. For example, the information that 'sr' > (Serbian) and 'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses > a closer relation between those languages than between, say, > 'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian). It is valid to use the > subtag of the encompassed language or of the macrolanguage to > form language tags. However, many matching applications will > not be aware of the relationship between the languages. Care in > selecting which subtags are used is crucial to interoperability. > > In general, use the most specific tag. However, where the > macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a dominant > encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag > specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary > to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from the > dominant language variety. > > In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special > consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most > languages having 'zh' as a macrolanguage (and because historically > subtags for the various encompassed languages were not available), > languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used > either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. > This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully > applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks > in language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' > has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm > to fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" > without losing the script and region information (even though > the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Any day you get all five woodpeckers is a good day. --Elliotte Rusty Harold > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 20:14:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0oHC-0007ge-C6; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:14:42 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0oHA-0007gS-J1 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:14:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0oHA-0007gK-9I for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:14:40 -0500 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0oH9-0003UH-P4 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:14:40 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071208011439.WXSX21128.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 20:14:39 -0500 Message-ID: <030001c83937$b4e4b0d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <01fd01c83900$557bf770$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712071150h50a4d386h6954c25fb4331c75@mail.gmail.com> <4759BD5D.7050107@yahoo-inc.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:14:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Actually, I favor leaving the text alone. It currently doesn't define > what "Latin script" means, on the assumption that the LSR and > ietf-languages (at registration time) or Doug (at 4645bis time) can > figure it out. We can discuss what it means for 4645bis purposes, but > we already had consensus on this for 4646, let alone now. I think that's been our problem. Rather than figure it out at run-time, we have a big long debate over it at run-time, every time, and it overshadows the main debate over the proposed subtag, and we end up with inconsistent results anyway. Remember the discussion over the variant subtag 'baku1926' and how much time we spent haggling over transliterations of the Comments field; Michael wanted to have (and got) a duplicate ASCII rendition of every non-ASCII name for that alphabet. > It might turn out that this paragraph actually means "US-ASCII7" in > practice. It better not. In the current Registry, we have 15 Description fields with at least one non-ASCII letter. Most of these are the sole description. In 4645bis we will have about 430. > Note also that we allow for multiple description fields, in case we > want multiple representations. That has given us Description: Geʻez Description: Ge'ez and Description: Hanunoo (Hanunóo) and I'm not convinced that this is the best thing for the Registry. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 07 23:44:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0rY5-0005eH-Fl; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:44:21 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0rY4-0005dq-De for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:44:20 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0rY4-0005dh-3B for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:44:20 -0500 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0rY3-0006aq-PZ for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:44:20 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 20:44:19 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.72]) with mapi; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 20:44:18 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 20:44:15 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Review of 4646bis-10: registration authorities Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Review of 4646bis-10: registration authorities Thread-Index: Acg5FnV2wYvgfh1hTnaoxMhNbA1jwQAPi5iA Message-ID: References: <20071207211621.GB3346@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071207211621.GB3346@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > 2.2.1: remove the words "or governing standardization bodies" from > points 1 and 2; > the whole point of the RA is so that ISO doesn't have to do > registration itself. At times, however, the relevant technical committee may publish a new editi= on or an amendment of a standard which incorporates certain changes to code= tables. This was intentionally added in 3066 to cover all possible scenari= os. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 00:24:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0sAe-0002Pd-Iz; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:24:12 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0sAd-0002PX-7R for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:24:11 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0sAc-0002PP-Tx for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:24:10 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0sAc-0007p6-Lh for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:24:10 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J0sAc-0006Zz-FD; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:24:10 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 00:24:10 -0500 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Review of 4646bis-10: registration authorities Message-ID: <20071208052410.GA22311@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207211621.GB3346@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > At times, however, the relevant technical committee may publish a > new edition or an amendment of a standard which incorporates certain > changes to code tables. This was intentionally added in 3066 to cover > all possible scenarios. Ah. Concedo. -- MEET US AT POINT ORANGE AT MIDNIGHT BRING YOUR DUCK OR PREPARE TO FACE WUGGUMS John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 00:26:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0sCe-0001KA-Gj; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:26:16 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0sCd-0001K3-NY for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:26:15 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0sCd-0001Jv-Df for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:26:15 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0sCd-0007va-7B for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:26:15 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J0sCZ-0006lS-Kl; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:26:11 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 00:26:11 -0500 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 Message-ID: <20071208052611.GB22311@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> <4759D4B5.6090309@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4759D4B5.6090309@yahoo-inc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > Firstly, let me express my Deep Annoyance at getting emails with > proposed text with line breaks and big wads of whitespace in front of > each line. Yes, a regular expression will tame the beast, but I'd prefer > to cut-and-paste a bit more :-) I format my emails as God intended, for an 80-column fixed-width text screen (which I still use), and I indent quotations. If you don't like it, "fmt -20000" is your friend. -- What is the sound of Perl? Is it not the John Cowan sound of a [Ww]all that people have stopped cowan@ccil.org banging their head against? --Larry http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 01:09:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ssd-0004c7-Ve; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:09:39 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ssc-0004c2-Nc for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:09:38 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ssb-0004bu-R1 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:09:37 -0500 Received: from mta16.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211] helo=mta16.adelphia.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0ssb-0003DL-Cs for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:09:37 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071208060936.DMZJ5365.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 01:09:36 -0500 Message-ID: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 22:09:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Subject: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org As John pointed out, the first paragraph of Section 3.1.4 in draft-4646bis-10 disallows two or more "formatting variations of the same description," which basically means that for each subtag, either a non-inverted form like "Church Slavic" or an inverted form like "Slavic, Church" is allowed, but not both. For 4645bis, I will be adding only the non-inverted forms of language subtags taken from the ISO 639-3 files, and will uninvert the existing descriptions ("Sotho, Southern") or remove inverted forms where both currently exist ("Ndebele, North" and "North Ndebele") for consistency. There's only one source of major duplication in the Registry now, and that involves the language names that exist as both a macrolanguage and an individual language. Swahili is an example: Id Part2B Part2T Part1 Scope Language_Type Ref_Name Comment swa swa swa sw M L Swahili (macrolanguage) swh I L Swahili (individual language) When the individual languages are listed in the current Registry, they naturally do not have the word "(macrolanguage)" in their description: Type: language Subtag: sw Description: Swahili Added: 2005-10-16 Suppress-Script: Latn I've been assuming that the only solution is to keep both names, putting the 639-3 name first, because we wanted to keep the 639-1 and/or -2 name as well: Description: Swahili (macrolanguage) Description: Swahili But because of the no-inversion rule, it turns out we will be getting rid of some of the 639-1/-2 names anyway (see "Sotho, Southern" above). Is it still necessary to list both "X" and "X (macrolanguage)" as in the Swahili example above? -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 01:48:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0tTq-0001zn-2A; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:48:06 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0tTp-0001zi-3E for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:48:05 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0tTo-0001za-Lc for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:48:04 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0tTo-0002y7-B1 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:48:04 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J0tTl-0004fi-Ut; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:48:01 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 01:48:01 -0500 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Message-ID: <20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org> References: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > Description: Swahili (macrolanguage) > Description: Swahili > > But because of the no-inversion rule, it turns out we will be getting > rid of some of the 639-1/-2 names anyway (see "Sotho, Southern" above). > Is it still necessary to list both "X" and "X (macrolanguage)" as in the > Swahili example above? I'd say remove the second line in favor of the first, which is definitive. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 08:04:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0zLu-0004X9-3J; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 08:04:18 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0zLt-0004X0-5W for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 08:04:17 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0zLs-0004Ws-RP for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 08:04:16 -0500 Received: from mta6.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.190]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0zLs-00070H-FQ for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 08:04:16 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071206145732.EOPB21128.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 09:57:32 -0500 Message-ID: <019401c83818$54f2ada0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001101c836f9$261ed2d0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712042051s28df0f50ib44c8beca615c5cc@mail.gmail.com> <47562F67.6060905@yahoo-inc.com> <004001c836fe$b495d310$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071206162427.0c17f560@localhost> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: no teleconference this week Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 06:57:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > A really cheap way out would be to put the necessary language in RFC > 4646bis, and leave RFC 4647 alone. Just an idea, probably not a very > good one, it depends on the exact text that's needed. It might be that the new text in Section 4.1 is all we need to say, or can say. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 09:42:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J10tO-0005GC-1J; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 09:42:58 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J10tM-0005G7-I8 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 09:42:56 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J10tM-0005Fz-8P for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 09:42:56 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J10tK-0005pg-GA for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 09:42:56 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J10tA-00054c-EN for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:42:44 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:42:44 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:42:44 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:44:35 +0100 Organization: Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <01fd01c83900$557bf770$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81><30b660a20712071150h50a4d386h6954c25fb4331c75@mail.gmail.com> <4759BD5D.7050107@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Non-Latin-1 Description fields in RFC 4645bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Actually, I favor leaving the text alone. The MUST would force the language review list to outsmart the source standards if they happen to provide no "Latin de jour" description. It also forces the language review list to invent some kind of "Latin transliteration" for variants, and I'm pretty sure that this ends up as some Anglosaxon gibberish, more or less pointless for the rest of the world. > We can discuss what it means for 4645bis purposes The TUS concept of "Latin" means nothing for registry users. A bunch of "unsupported glyph" squares, worse than visible Cyril. I've no idea why one source uses u+02BB which is annotated as Hawaian in TUS, but used for Ethiopian in the registry. I only care to know that it is u+02BB, and the old NCR format managed this directly, for the new UTF-8 hell I'd need a decoder (in that case Doug did it for me) > It might turn out that this paragraph actually means=20 > "US-ASCII7" in practice. Unlike Latin "US-ASCII" is at least a clearly defined set, no moving target always ahead of really deployed fonts. I'd be much more impressed if at least one description for "registered languages" and variants MUST be in the native language used by the corresponding community, not only Anglosaxon "Latin". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 10:33:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J11fz-0006Cm-W1; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:33:11 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J11fz-00069t-3M for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:33:11 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J11fy-000692-Ow for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:33:10 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J11fy-00074A-5a for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:33:10 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J11fp-0006O7-Dr for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:33:01 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:33:01 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:33:01 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:34:59 +0100 Organization: Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> <4759B2E9.5000106@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Broken folding (was: (editor response) Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: >> 3.1.1: change the definition of folding to "Folding is always done on >> Unicode default grapheme boundaries". That says what the current = text >> says, and also prohibits folding in the middle of a Hangul syllable >> written as separate jamo. =20 > :: shiver :: =20 > Yes, I know. (laughing) I hoped to avoid implementing it in record-jar = > though. But you're right. =20 > The sentence was rewritten as follows, to include the example: =20 > Folding is always done on Unicode default grapheme boundaries (that > is, never in the middle of a multibyte UTF-8 sequence nor in the > middle of a combining character sequence). Do they offer a list of combining characters somewhere, or is that a case of "grep 996 KB list for non-zero combining class" ? You need a note that "folding" is supposed to be replaced by NO space in your definition. In other words it MUST NOT occur where WSP is allowed (replacing a real WSP by folding, which is later unfolded into nothing, joins words): 1 - input was Example:foldme 2 - folded is Example:foldme 3 - output is Example:foldme Your "folding" lost the space here, I see no way to protect it. =20 The folks who created STD 11 etc. knew what they were up to, and the whole world knows how STD 11 folding works. [In another message = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D] > IOW the registry is supposed to be viewable and readable as > a plain-text (UTF-8) file. The folding business should be similar with NCRs for graphemes, not folding "within" a NCR is obvious, like not folding within an UTF-8 code point. Record-jar is rather pointless for UTF-8, I always wanted "UTF-8 =3D> XML", how about simply deleting the line length limit 72 ? "72 bytes" is a pointless concept for UTF-8, and 72 "graphemes" don't help with half- vs. full width. (Actually I've no clue, maybe NFC gets rid of the width hurdle) > They don't have WSP separated words in Korean, typically Ugh. Transform the 72 MUST in a SHOULD, and allow folding only at 1*WSP, allowing folding within a word can't work as expected. Violating the SHOULD for longer words is perfectly fine. We're not interested in 2047 / 2231 encoded "words" for the registry [ MIME has smart rules about SP between encoded words, but not trivial, this killed several EAI downgrade drafts from my POV ] >> Talking about "bytes" in conjunction with UTF-8 makes me nervous. > Why so? UTF-8 is a multibyte character encoding. So it's code > unit is the byte. Sure, but what are "72 bytes" supposed to do, if that could be 18 to 72 code points, and hopefully more than zero graphemes per line. The 72 only made sense for the NCR registry when viewed as ASCII. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 10:51:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J11xg-0007VP-SS; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:51:28 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J11xf-0007VK-C6 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:51:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J11xf-0007VC-2L for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:51:27 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J11xd-0007Sh-CN for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:51:27 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J11xY-0002uh-To for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:51:20 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:51:20 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:51:20 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:53:16 +0100 Organization: Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: =20 > It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to tag an > encompassed language using the subtag for its macrolanguage. s/always permitted, and// It is sometimes useful, enough said, the rest of your proposed text is IMO unnecessary, "let the market decide" (not exactly my favourite option, but if you=20 want to go into details you need examples) > Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve=20 > matching or language negotiation. +1 (no Michael here, I can say +1 ;-) > For example, the information that 'sr' (Serbian) and 'hr'=20 > (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses a closer relation > between those languages than between, say, 'sr' (Serbian) > and 'ma' (Macedonian). Dubious example, what if ISO 639-3 adds 'ma' to the 'sh' set ? > It is valid to use the subtag of the encompassed language or > of the macrolanguage to form language tags. At a price, 'sh' is deprecated, and 'sh' has no Suppress-Script. You picked certainly an interesting example for this business. > In general, use the most specific tag. However, where the > macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a > dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place -1 It is messy, don't make it worse, "let the market decide". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 10:52:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J11yO-0007mD-5z; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:52:12 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J11yN-0007m8-HQ for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:52:11 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J11yN-0007m0-7p for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:52:11 -0500 Received: from relay-1.mailobj.net ([195.234.90.136]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J11yM-0007TW-KE for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:52:11 -0500 Received: from netcourrier.com (webmail-1.in.mailobj.net [192.168.90.138]) by relay-1.mailobj.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E58947A36 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:52:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from [89.2.186.89] by webmail-1.netcourrier.com via html interface From: Nicolas Krebs To: ltru@ietf.org Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:52:09 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Medianet/v2.0 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Swiss German and Alsatian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:12:55 +0100 >De: Stephane Bortzmeyer >A: Nicolas Krebs >Copie =E0: ltru=40ietf.org >Sujet: Re: Swiss German and Alsatian >Which means that you can ask ietf-languages to register variant >=22alsatian=22 with prefix =22gsw=22 :-) Or a comment but my personal opi= nion >is that a variant reflects more the reality of alsatian. >The regular procedure is described here and alsatian is mentioned as >an example :-) > >http://www.langtag.net/register-new-subtag.html > You could add a =A7 in this document saying that mail to = http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages may help to improve the request, by example to change = prefix for alsacian from de to gsw (de is German language, = not germanic languages). = I am thinking at this beacause gsw-alsacian, but in fact it = can be done with valencian too (ca-valencian is better than es-valencian). = _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 12:36:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13b9-0003en-VM; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:36:19 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J13b8-0003bz-SW for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:36:18 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13b8-0003br-Hd for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:36:18 -0500 Received: from mailb.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13b8-0005bY-38 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:36:18 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 09:36:17 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.185]) with mapi; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 09:36:17 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 09:36:12 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Swiss German and Alsatian Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Swiss German and Alsatian Thread-Index: Acg5sk0audW9etlWRFC2EL8VRcTK1wADFoSw Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [very much off topic] > From: Nicolas Krebs [mailto:nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com] [snip] > >The regular procedure is described here and alsatian is mentioned as > >an example :-) > > > >http://www.langtag.net/register-new-subtag.html > > > > You could add a =A7 in this document saying that mail to > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > may help to improve the request, by example to change > prefix for alsacian from de to gsw (de is German language, > not germanic languages). > > I am thinking at this beacause gsw-alsacian, but in fact it > can be done with valencian too (ca-valencian is better than > es-valencian). It's not clear to me what it is you want. Mail to the ietf-languages list is required for *any* request to make a cha= nge in the contents of the LSR (other than changes in the format and struct= ure of the registry). The page on langtag.net explains that. There is no "alsacian" subtag, so a request to change its prefix makes no s= ense. The LSR entry for Valencian already indicates it should be used with ca and= not with es: Type: variant Subtag: valencia Description: Valencian Added: 2007-03-06 Prefix: ca Comments: Variety spoken in the "Comunidad Valenciana" region of Spain, where it is co-official with Spanish. If you want to see a variant subtag 'alsacian', you need to submit a regist= ration proposal for it on the ietf-languages list. If you want to ensure th= at that subtag is used with gsw and not with de (which definitely would be = appropriate), then the proposal should list gsw as the prefix for the subta= g. If you want the entry for gsw in the LSR to include a comment saying that i= t should be used for Alsatian, then submit a proposal to the ietf-languages= list for that change. If you want ISO 639 to make a change in the names listed for gsw, submit a = request to one of the RAs (LOC or SIL). NOTE: Requesting any of the above are NOT on topic for this list (LTRU); th= ey would be on topic for the ietf-languages list. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 12:38:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13dA-0005Yk-KL; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:38:24 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J13d9-0005Ye-UQ for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:38:23 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13d9-0005YW-JR for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:38:23 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.181]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13d9-0005eL-0z for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:38:23 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so3056692wah for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 09:38:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=TQf8G3qD8m8locuHrbZ8ae8K9QdZEmiLCRJf+u4GIkw=; b=KBsv6lvU6RZqd9SHGplKIMgRqxacXhWt+eWKTcfXVah//+Rox36wfFCBLs7zjpBkD5L56yKGGoVDm5ovQCtlN84L2mi/kBTVsUDt7I2uvRQ0v9IeJi6PPWeW39RVDkGVPTNdTYBc2czBiCM6jW+kziv1rprJt75u9mfdY3YdOY4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=TuxUNYl6TGJbo82Epl2cP21Pm4z6HV/faYEUq13I5Nb+p8Idl/oln5rh1Uvlf1bm7id/vXsd9x6zDRqxBporDNnmrcVbCWSVRUqpu2AxD/TgyssC4mSjxtJ6UifP41VJ/nbkD2xgQnLLMwgKvtokbxLTirGL/3h8nJ9u+eABfgQ= Received: by 10.114.156.1 with SMTP id d1mr4518599wae.1197135502382; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 09:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 09:38:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712080938t36e47861gfccdd65f4d2b56cf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 09:38:22 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" In-Reply-To: <20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 16236a0f162898b1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0840881713==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0840881713== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_980_296308.1197135502356" ------=_Part_980_296308.1197135502356 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'd favor: Description: Swahili A vanishingly small number of people will know what "macrolanguage" means or how it should be translated, so having it be part of the name would be clumsy. I also thought we were going to have macrolanguage as a field -- that would be clean way to do it, and if so, then including " (macrolanguage)" would also be redundant. Mark On Dec 7, 2007 10:48 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Doug Ewell scripsit: > > > Description: Swahili (macrolanguage) > > Description: Swahili > > > > But because of the no-inversion rule, it turns out we will be getting > > rid of some of the 639-1/-2 names anyway (see "Sotho, Southern" above). > > Is it still necessary to list both "X" and "X (macrolanguage)" as in the > > Swahili example above? > > I'd say remove the second line in favor of the first, which is definitive. > > -- > John Cowan > cowan@ccil.org > I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_980_296308.1197135502356 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'd favor:

Description: Swahili

A vanishingly small number of people will know what "macrolanguage" means or how it should be translated, so having it be part of the name would be clumsy. I also thought we were going to have macrolanguage as a field -- that would be clean way to do it, and if so, then including " (macrolanguage)" would also be redundant.

Mark

On Dec 7, 2007 10:48 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Doug Ewell scripsit:

> Description: Swahili (macrolanguage)
> Description: Swahili
>
> But because of the no-inversion rule, it turns out we will be getting
> rid of some of the 639-1/-2 names anyway (see "Sotho, Southern" above).
> Is it still necessary to list both "X" and "X (macrolanguage)" as in the
> Swahili example above?

I'd say remove the second line in favor of the first, which is definitive.

--
John Cowan
       cowan@ccil.org
               I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin


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--
Mark ------=_Part_980_296308.1197135502356-- --===============0840881713== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0840881713==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 12:48:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13nB-00072Y-Vj; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:48:45 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J13nA-00071T-CL for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:48:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13nA-00071L-2a for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:48:44 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13n7-0001eY-TV for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:48:44 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J13kX-0003CP-SJ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:46:02 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:46:01 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:46:01 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 18:47:13 +0100 Organization: Lines: 138 Message-ID: References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36b1f8810cb91289d885dc8ab4fc8172 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: I abuse your reviews to look at the relevant sections of the latest fantasy island manifest (i.e. what used to be an LTRU WG draft posted by WG editors before -09) | The form MUST be sent to iana@iana.org by the Language | Subtag Reviewer. Why can't the reviewer and IANA use pigeons if that's what works for them ? Or more practical the Web form offered by IANA ? What is the idea of the MUST here ? | IANA MUST I consider a "MUST" while talking with IANA as rude. There is far too much MUSTard in the I-D, MUSTard should be reserved for cases where ignoring it is both plausible and would cause havoc. | Non-ASCII characters can be sent to IANA by attaching | the registration form to the email message or by=20 | using various encodings in the mail message body=20 | (UTF-8 is recommended). IANA will verify any unclear | or corrupted characters with the Language Subtag=20 | Reviewer prior to posting the updated registry. Can we please at least consider that neither IANA nor expert are idiots ? It's no business of 4646bis to discuss technical details of the MUAs used by IANA and expert, as far as I'm concerned the expert can send IANA an URL where to find the complete registration, if IANA accepts this. He could fax it, who cares ? After an update the registry MUST be valid UTF-8, that would be MUSTard where I know what it means (it would be not good enough to guarantee "grapheme-folding" and NFC, but at least it would cover the worst errors) | from=20 | "http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/". What next, tell their Web master what software they have to use, or how to run backups ? They told us that they intend to reorganize their Web site, and everybody knows that "cool" URIs are persistent. =20 > 5.1: does ietf-languages-announcements really exist, > and does IANA really announce to it? And WTH is a "self-subscribing list", asking IETF mail experts what lists do with an existing Sender I got more than three strictly incompatible answers from folks like the 822 + email-arch author, 2822 author, MIME author, and ASRG Chair. The 2821 author noted another opinion in the Last Called 2821bis. =20 If IANA offers an atom feed I'd like that better than a mailing list, and I don't any reason for a MUST about this issue. > The rest are editorial: [...] > 4.1: s/Sometimes there is a choice/There is always a choice/, > which is much nearer the truth. It's "almost always" then. =20 > 4.4: The definition of "canonical form" here shouldn't > have MUSTard in it; a definition is just a definition > and shouldn't have any modal verbs. =20 > Point 2, s/SHOULD be/are/. Point 3, /MUST be/are/. > Point 4, same as 3. +1, there's an overall SHOULD in 4.4, and a MUST within a SHOULD is confusing. No MUSTard in definitions - if "A" is ("B" or "C") by definition, then saying that "A" MUST be "B" or "C" is redundant, saying that it SHOULD be "B" or "C" would be erroneous, tertium non datur. BTW, I vaguely recall that we didn't want chains: | Note: In rare cases, the mapped value will also have | a Preferred-Value. If a subtag Y gets a new Preferred-Value Z, then all X with Preferred-Value Y should be updated to say Z. IMO a clear case where getting it right in the registry once is better than asking obscure implementations to follow chained mappings. Let alone erroneous cycles, such cycles could be related to "un-deprecated" codes.=20 > Private use subtags, like all other subtags, MUST=20 > conform to the format and content constraints in the > ABNF. They have no meaning outside the private > agreement between the parties that intend to use or > exchange language tags that employ them, and so are > are simply useless for information exchange without > prior arrangement. Delete the whole paragraph, if folks don't know what "private" means then I'm pretty sure that they don't _want_ to know what it means, and adding text doesn't help. Your wording is already shorter than the draft, but I think it's still too convoluted. =20 > For some applications, this additional information=20 > MAY be useful. No 2119 MAY, actually it's obvious, otherwise there was no valid reason to violate the two prior SHOULD NOT. > 7: s/rendering engines sometimes use/rendering engines MAY use/. s/MAY/are free to/ or "can", 4646bis isn't about rendering. > 8 [record-jar]: add "chapter 5". Not sure what you're talking about. BTW, what does the following paragraph in 5.1 try to say ? | Future work on the Language Subtag Registry has been | limited to inserting or replacing whole records=20 | preformatted for IANA by the Language Subtag Reviewer | as described in Section 3.3 of this document and archiving | and making publically available the forwarded registration | form. Is that an attempt to kill the 4( ALPHA ) reservation ? > My suggestions for invalid tags are xxx-Defg-HQ,=20 > de-1996-1996, en-nedis, and ar-a-aaa-b-bbb-a-ccc. The xxx-Defq-HQ isn't guaranteed to be invalid forever, or did I miss a clue ? Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 12:56:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13ut-0000N8-IM; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:56:43 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J13ur-0000Km-MN for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:56:41 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13uq-0000KW-4F for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:56:41 -0500 Received: from mta16.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J13up-0005yG-NH for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:56:40 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071208175638.LEFX5365.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:56:38 -0500 Message-ID: <002601c839c3$aec71df0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712080938t36e47861gfccdd65f4d2b56cf@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 09:56:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > I'd favor: > > Description: Swahili > > A vanishingly small number of people will know what "macrolanguage" > means or how it should be translated, so having it be part of the name > would be clumsy. It's going to be confusing no matter what we do, because most people think 'sw' refers to Swahili, the individual language, and now we are telling them that language is really 'swh'. This is worse than the Chinese case, where at least none of the encompassed languages is called simply "Chinese." > I also thought we were going to have macrolanguage as a field -- that > would be clean way to do it, and if so, then including " > (macrolanguage)" would also be redundant. But the macrolanguage 'sw' won't be marked in any special way; only the presence of other language subtags with "Macrolanguage: sw" will provide any clue. I can see advantages and disadvantages to both sides here. I also don't like exposing the term "macrolanguage" in user interfaces (c'mon, you know the Description fields will end up there) and forcing civilians to understand what a macrolanguage is. But then what does it mean to have a choice between plain "Swahili" and "Swahili (individual language)"? And what about the people who said we MUST keep all the ISO 639 names intact, without changing so much as a hyphen or apostrophe, so the subtags could be related back to the standard? I hope more people contribute their thoughts on this. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 13:24:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J14M3-0002q0-8a; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:24:47 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J14M2-0002po-Hy for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:24:46 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J14M2-0002oI-6w for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:24:46 -0500 Received: from mta15.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J14M1-0006aP-Kr for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:24:46 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071208182443.XUGB1480.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:24:43 -0500 Message-ID: <002f01c839c7$9b1db670$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 10:24:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > | Non-ASCII characters can be sent to IANA by attaching > | the registration form to the email message or by > | using various encodings in the mail message body > | (UTF-8 is recommended). IANA will verify any unclear > | or corrupted characters with the Language Subtag > | Reviewer prior to posting the updated registry. > > Can we please at least consider that neither IANA nor > expert are idiots ? It's no business of 4646bis to > discuss technical details of the MUAs used by IANA and > expert, as far as I'm concerned the expert can send > IANA an URL where to find the complete registration, > if IANA accepts this. He could fax it, who cares ? One of the big objections that people had to switching to UTF-8 was that the non-ASCII characters might get munged in transit. This passage was added specifically to calm those nerves. > | from > | "http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/". > > What next, tell their Web master what software they have > to use, or how to run backups ? They told us that they > intend to reorganize their Web site, and everybody knows > that "cool" URIs are persistent. People criticized the fact that 4646 didn't specify where the completed forms could be found. > BTW, I vaguely recall that we didn't want chains: > > | Note: In rare cases, the mapped value will also have > | a Preferred-Value. > > If a subtag Y gets a new Preferred-Value Z, then all X > with Preferred-Value Y should be updated to say Z. > > IMO a clear case where getting it right in the registry > once is better than asking obscure implementations to > follow chained mappings. Let alone erroneous cycles, > such cycles could be related to "un-deprecated" codes. We didn't want chains, but even more so, we didn't want to break the stability of the Preferred-Value field. Regarding cycles, I think if you want to rely on IANA and the LSR to get things right rather than adding MUSTard, you surely ought to give them (or at least me, as Co-Designated Expert) credit for detecting and avoiding cycles. >> Private use subtags, like all other subtags, MUST >> conform to the format and content constraints in the >> ABNF. They have no meaning outside the private >> agreement between the parties that intend to use or >> exchange language tags that employ them, and so are >> are simply useless for information exchange without >> prior arrangement. > > Delete the whole paragraph, if folks don't know what > "private" means then I'm pretty sure that they don't > _want_ to know what it means, and adding text doesn't > help. Your wording is already shorter than the draft, > but I think it's still too convoluted. This was added in direct response to fears expressed during LTRU 1.0 (which I did not share) that people would abuse private subtags. Most of the text in the draft is there for a reason, because the WG wanted it there or agreed to have it put there. Addison and Mark (like me) are editors, not authors; our job is to write drafts that reflect the will of the group. It's always fair to ask why something is there or how it got there, but the answer might well be "because everyone insisted on it N months or years ago." -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 13:39:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J14aZ-0005ox-AR; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:39:47 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J14aX-0005oh-S0 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:39:45 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J14aX-0005oU-I3 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:39:45 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J14aV-0002eu-N4 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:39:45 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071208183943.MENO20723.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:39:43 -0500 Message-ID: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 10:39:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Incidentally, this same question applies to cases like the following: Type: language Subtag: ain Description: Ainu (Japan) Description: Ainu Added: 2005-10-16 where: "Ainu" is the name used in ISO 639-2 "Ainu (Japan)" is the name used in ISO 639-3, because there is also an "Ainu (China)" that wasn't coded in 639-2 Does it make sense to include both descriptions? Doing so might confuse people looking for the Chinese Ainu, who find "Ainu = ain" (in a user interface, not looking directly at the LSR) and don't realize there is also a Japanese Ainu and they've hit it by mistake. Excluding "Ainu (Japan)" would guarantee that this would happen. But excluding plain "Ainu" would once again be unacceptable to people who want all ISO 639-1 and -2 names (except inversions, now) retained in the LSR. Which is the least problematic course of action? -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 13:45:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J14fd-0004Lj-IC; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:45:01 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J14fd-0004Le-1S for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:45:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J14fc-0004LW-Nt for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:45:00 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.176]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J14fb-0002ln-Ah for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:45:00 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so3091824wah for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:44:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=6fY0qIKsdIFp9vG8SktIv5VhwcS4gTT7AmZp8+k9xA8=; b=g109XlWfuT5UZzHfGfSWwNOKbghEn9ZV8xwjuyvVRcTiJ14UlgJfQ7UE/+Yz7xyspBfTAIeiX3BrHgCVKKpg5cIb4085y7vMrs8p7PA3rUsQL8Lpaqqxt6uppy0cHfauXA9Xkq9z1ENPYEnV46SYUdOGMGI4EsBKE8SlcSj1dfc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Hy4rVF2Na54m3xORMxfbljKXGjjdcaOjwEnUlbNoYnfCB/A/NuySCx3qF43fuTNRmwNXJpubKOW3ADDq7tbb6V/8cCiw9jd84zrenJV8W1wGqCw8VEN8zElDXM7IaDKbRVj9GdFNf2un5F9/qfzi4xaz7mnfejUxZPh00eB4bv4= Received: by 10.114.36.1 with SMTP id j1mr1523345waj.1197139498308; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:44:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 10:44:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712081044o77be0eacy50de71b76f55a748@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 10:44:58 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" In-Reply-To: <002601c839c3$aec71df0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712080938t36e47861gfccdd65f4d2b56cf@mail.gmail.com> <002601c839c3$aec71df0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 39a26dccabe942b1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e367d58950869b6582535ddf5a673488 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org 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([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J154I-0003GE-Hx for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:10:32 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1540-0002Tl-Hb for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 19:10:12 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 19:10:12 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 19:10:12 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 20:11:46 +0100 Organization: Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81><20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712080938t36e47861gfccdd65f4d2b56cf@mail.gmail.com> <002601c839c3$aec71df0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > It's going to be confusing no matter what we do Confusing is one thing, but two different language codes with the same description would be *broken*. 3066 and 4646 went to great lengths that this is not possible, including a promise from ISO in the text. If your beutifications result in an ambiguity for "Swahili" pick a simpler algorithm where that won't happen. =20 > the macrolanguage 'sw' won't be marked in any=20 > special way The SIL pages claim that the description for "sw" is "Swahili (macrolanguage)". The 4646 registry claims that it's "Swahili", at least one of them is wrong. > what about the people who said we MUST keep all > the ISO 639 names intact, without changing so > much as a hyphen or apostrophe, so the subtags > could be related back to the standard? Watching what happens with your beautification ;-) Seriously, who lies about "sw", the registry or=20 SIL ? Did we miss a bulk update of 639-1 codes ? I know that we talked about info in parentheses, but not this "Swahili" ambiguity, or did we ? Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 14:15:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J159b-0007PE-GI; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:15:59 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J159a-0007P8-3m for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:15:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J159Z-0007Oz-P1 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:15:57 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.176]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J159U-0003M4-Hg for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:15:57 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so3107420wah for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 11:15:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; 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<30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:15:51 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" In-Reply-To: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7adfdc00c8245d41 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e7b1ab8d25bf2136836adf5c1ff80d72 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0333877934==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0333877934== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1247_13603199.1197141351505" ------=_Part_1247_13603199.1197141351505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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LS0gPGJyPk1hcmsKPC9mb250Pgo= ------=_Part_1247_13603199.1197141351505-- --===============0333877934== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0333877934==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 14:19:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15Ce-0008GG-2m; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:19:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J15Cc-0008GA-KH for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:19:06 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15Cc-0008G2-7m for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:19:06 -0500 Received: from mailb.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15Cb-0007lc-Ie for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:19:06 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.113) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:19:04 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.113]) with mapi; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:19:04 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:18:58 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Topic: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Index: Acg5wSTN4dqIdA8uRieuk5EMfWnyoAADc7Bg Message-ID: References: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712080938t36e47861gfccdd65f4d2b56cf@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: 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with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15I9-0001dV-55 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:24:49 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15I2-0003Yf-0c for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:24:49 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.114) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:24:40 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.114]) with mapi; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:24:41 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis , Doug Ewell Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:24:35 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Topic: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Index: Acg5zsjN61Mna0LoT5WRIy8OqSwd+QAAM1Zw Message-ID: References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: b63732b5b9d1e52a31ec7f4a85570241 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1127349365==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1127349365== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579561E514327ENAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579561E514327ENAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:30:03 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15ND-0003A3-EI for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:30:03 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15ND-00086e-5Y for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:30:03 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071208193002.QODL4022.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:30:02 -0500 Message-ID: <005201c839d0$bac78d80$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:30:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > It is coincidental that an Altaic language spoken in China and an > unrelated isolate language spoken in China both happen to have “Ainu” > as their English name. Recte: an unrelated isolate language spoken in Japan -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 14:30:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15O2-0003TH-I6; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:30:54 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J15O1-0003T4-WC for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:30:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15O1-0003Sv-MJ for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:30:53 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.176]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15Nz-0003nX-FT for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:30:53 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so3115201wah for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 11:30:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=zd1GO+/zu9RDpbkM5VFQSePGIV0S/xRLhE3ClIjYSzU=; b=SgK6bIZePxMAFFfyzgR+C8M6LJI9LrJb8xrFmdpLO+kErEi/kC43mE6dhDUoPQnt29rhAt6Fzq1ap74ls4a4EwVUz/+EOwwuVlj1U1NIUrMkmSGN6nzL4oX6Dn8jSWtakIfLPBZdfQa5Vwl3eblaQNOELNo63dirXrAub8AQiV0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=cYiTzJdSupfn0K+LQo8S2nW05K17FVOPaANSonoJzlPnzxAGIrlt0c3RuBPDqy62Trk/+0OKxfuYscZvKDdF8ZVDMfsevdIH21RZHLwTygYpPv1f44d5OezYc4tqRM0tLSfTVjrbZbD19AAWgmEDBZkQIZM3FMh1Stmph8g2Ns4= Received: by 10.115.77.1 with SMTP id e1mr4985293wal.1197142250417; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 11:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:30:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712081130k3c83c415jfc3f6c2ae1b2b1a6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:30:50 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2dc6e9248ebfdf54 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0672002569==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0672002569== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1323_19830984.1197142250411" ------=_Part_1323_19830984.1197142250411 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I suspected as much. Is that the case for all the other duplicates that have one of them defined in 639-2? Mark On Dec 8, 2007 11:24 AM, Peter Constable wrote: > It is coincidental that an Altaic language spoken in China and an > unrelated isolate language spoken in China both happen to have "Ainu" as > their English name. > > > > Peter > ------=_Part_1323_19830984.1197142250411 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I suspected as much. Is that the case for all the other duplicates that have one of them defined in 639-2?

Mark

On Dec 8, 2007 11:24 AM, Peter Constable < petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

It is coincidental that an Altaic language spoken in China and an unrelated isolate language spoken in China both happen to have "Ainu" as their English name.

 

Peter

------=_Part_1323_19830984.1197142250411-- --===============0672002569== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0672002569==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 14:34:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15RQ-0006Hx-4E; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:34:24 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J15RO-0006Hr-Vo for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:34:22 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15RO-0006Hj-Ie for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:34:22 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15RN-0008G0-3V for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:34:22 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:34:19 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.72]) with mapi; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:34:20 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:34:13 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Topic: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Index: Acg5ynTKngInpGdzTSGTnCMpaPTGnAABYcIQ Message-ID: References: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712080938t36e47861gfccdd65f4d2b56cf@mail.gmail.com> <002601c839c3$aec71df0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712081044o77be0eacy50de71b76f55a748@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: 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(helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15SM-0006az-CW for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:35:22 -0500 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15SL-0008Ho-Qm for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:35:22 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.114) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:35:20 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.114]) with mapi; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:35:21 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:35:14 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Topic: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Index: Acg50Nf2TY1hgKjHRdy5m+BrToO0ngAAIdWg Message-ID: References: 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aXY+DQoNCjwvZGl2Pg0KDQo8L2JvZHk+DQoNCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579561E5143280NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============1867217509== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1867217509==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 14:36:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15T2-00073b-9E; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:36:04 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J15T1-00072d-7S for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:36:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15T0-00072V-U2 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:36:02 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15T0-0003vP-M2 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:36:02 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:36:02 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.185]) with mapi; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:36:02 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:35:51 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Topic: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Index: Acg50LuJb3XBlzFxQDuRbYqNqvIDYQAAMOjQ Message-ID: References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com> <005201c839d0$bac78d80$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: 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--===============2032549975==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 14:39:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15WY-0002pz-4B; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:39:42 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J15WX-0002pu-J0 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:39:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15WX-0002pm-9G for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:39:41 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15WV-00040w-Qh for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:39:41 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:39:38 -0800 Received: from 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List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0175334159==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0175334159== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBGcm9tOiBGcmFuayBFbGxlcm1hbm4gW21haWx0bzpub2JvZHlAeHl6enkuY2xhcmFuZXQuZGVd DQoNCg0KPiBDb25mdXNpbmcgaXMgb25lIHRoaW5nLCBidXQgdHdvIGRpZmZlcmVudCBsYW5ndWFn ZQ0KPiBjb2RlcyB3aXRoIHRoZSBzYW1lIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9uIHdvdWxkIGJlICpicm9rZW4qLg0K Pg0KPiAzMDY2IGFuZCA0NjQ2IHdlbnQgdG8gZ3JlYXQgbGVuZ3RocyB0aGF0IHRoaXMgaXMNCj4g bm90IHBvc3NpYmxlLCBpbmNsdWRpbmcgYSBwcm9taXNlIGZyb20gSVNPIGluIHRoZQ0KPiB0ZXh0 Lg0KDQpXaGF0ZSBhcmUgeW91IHJlZmVycmluZyB0bz8gSSBhbSBub3QgYXdhcmUgdGhhdCBJRVRG IHJlcXVlc3RlZCBhbnkgcHJvbWlzZXMgZnJvbSBJU08gd3J0IGRlc2NyaXB0aW9ucy4NCg0KDQoN Cj4gVGhlIFNJTCBwYWdlcyBjbGFpbSB0aGF0IHRoZSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBmb3IgInN3Ig0KPiBp cyAiU3dhaGlsaSAobWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZSkiLiAgVGhlIDQ2NDYgcmVnaXN0cnkNCj4gY2xhaW1z 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with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J15bN-0001Ea-BE for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:44:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15bN-0001ER-1U for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:44:41 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15bM-00047w-IH for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:44:41 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071208194440.RRPA4022.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:44:40 -0500 Message-ID: <005f01c839d2$c5f0d7f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20712080938t36e47861gfccdd65f4d2b56cf@mail.gmail.com> <002601c839c3$aec71df0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712081044o77be0eacy50de71b76f55a748@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:44:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > Now before someone says it, I realize that the names in a UI don't > have to be the same as the names in the registry. But the closer we > get them to being understandable by mortals, the more likely it is > that we will have non-confusing names show up in UIs. We might even > leave the above in the registry, but have a note in 4646bis about the > names. So I think it's worth our taking at least a little bit of time > to discuss this. > > The best I could think of off-hand was something like. > ... > Swahili (general) > Swahili > ... I assume you're talking about what you would do in a UI, not what the Registry should have. We had a big squabble about keeping the ISO names intact. In fact, at one point I was changing the parenthetical comments to "(general)" and "(specific)", or leaving out one or the other, but it was argued that people couldn't tie the Registry's Description fields back to the ISO standard. So now the only thing I'm concerned about is whether to keep both the 639-2 name, without the parenthetical comment, *and* the 639-3 name, which has it, or whether one of the two names can be jettisoned. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 15:07:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15x6-00029N-Ke; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:07:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J15x6-00029G-4R for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:07:08 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15x5-000297-Qo for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:07:07 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.181]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J15x5-0004aj-6b for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:07:07 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so3134661wah for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:07:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=OmOikAv5CPS2pGlIz+ozfco4338n1u7xbi4BxtCKroc=; b=bZjtPP3FldAYx397FVAjst54/U0bJMHd5X8kUIPicrxjlmnL0qvgydasoLwG6moV7aZMurO+LXY8uQWLvcruNJRw17uNRGSBlkB9/1pJjdkNWmu25pYhquxHxCzHrQBpxnH8i/GCeU+ugo1/kfV4iWkS8DXo01J88nT2VdRqUP4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=h9t7DcQfRdcqqx8eEyoltb/DF0Mr9jAsVatfKjEdZ93uPukshE5kUBXQNJ0nJdzuZyWEn9eZYHrTBCkwL+BhnwWy5TN0lUI+p9XJYk5JvZXuJMa0oObfheiYu0+auiL5sgWGDeDH6cN8zc8lDtxEOYJkIQ34obFKnwe4vUG5Q8Y= Received: by 10.114.94.1 with SMTP id r1mr4716661wab.1197144426302; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:07:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712081207n1e8f99dpb2fca7ba34e22b9f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:07:06 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712081130k3c83c415jfc3f6c2ae1b2b1a6@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c015109d74f4660e X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d2b46e3b2dfbff2088e0b72a54104985 Cc: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0692261955==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0692261955== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1450_1854951.1197144426299" ------=_Part_1450_1854951.1197144426299 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sorry. What I mean is, when you look at the list I sent out, there are lots of duplicate names, like Mari, Konkani, Kare, etc. Some of those have macrolanguage relationships (like Mari), and some don't (like Ainu). There are 4 possible classes of duplicates: 1. They have no genetic relationship, thus there is no macrolanguage (Ainu) 2. They have a genetic relationship, but neither was in 639-2, so there is no need for a macrolanguage (Tonga?) 3. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so there is a macrolanguage (Mari) 4. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so one of them should be a macrolanguage but isn't. (??) I wanted confirmation that #4 was empty. Mark On Dec 8, 2007 11:35 AM, Peter Constable wrote: > You're going to need to clarify that question for me to understand what > you have in mind. > > > > Peter > > > > *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Saturday, December 08, 2007 11:31 AM > *To:* Peter Constable > *Cc:* Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" > > > > I suspected as much. Is that the case for all the other duplicates that > have one of them defined in 639-2? > > Mark > > On Dec 8, 2007 11:24 AM, Peter Constable < petercon@microsoft.com> wrote: > > It is coincidental that an Altaic language spoken in China and an > unrelated isolate language spoken in China both happen to have "Ainu" as > their English name. > > > > Peter > -- Mark ------=_Part_1450_1854951.1197144426299 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sorry. What I mean is, when you look at the list I sent out, there are lots of duplicate names, like Mari, Konkani, Kare, etc. Some of those have macrolanguage relationships (like Mari), and some don't (like Ainu). There are 4 possible classes of duplicates:

1. They have no genetic relationship, thus there is no macrolanguage (Ainu)
2. They have a genetic relationship, but neither was in 639-2, so there is no need for a macrolanguage (Tonga?)
3. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so there is a macrolanguage (Mari)
4. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so one of them should be a macrolanguage but isn't. (??)

I wanted confirmation that #4 was empty.

Mark

On Dec 8, 2007 11:35 AM, Peter Constable < petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

You're going to need to clarify that question for me to understand what you have in mind.

 

Peter

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 11:31 AM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group


Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)"

 

I suspected as much. Is that the case for all the other duplicates that have one of them defined in 639-2?

Mark

On Dec 8, 2007 11:24 AM, Peter Constable < petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

It is coincidental that an Altaic language spoken in China and an unrelated isolate language spoken in China both happen to have "Ainu" as their English name.

 

Peter




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Mark ------=_Part_1450_1854951.1197144426299-- --===============0692261955== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0692261955==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 15:15:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J164j-0007Nf-EU; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:15:01 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J164j-0007L7-0h for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:15:01 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J164i-0007Kn-MU for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:15:00 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J164i-0000ns-C9 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:15:00 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071208201459.UAGX4022.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:14:59 -0500 Message-ID: <006601c839d7$027e6990$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712081130k3c83c415jfc3f6c2ae1b2b1a6@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712081207n1e8f99dpb2fca7ba34e22b9f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:14:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > There are 4 possible classes of duplicates: > > 1. They have no genetic relationship, thus there is no macrolanguage > (Ainu) > 2. They have a genetic relationship, but neither was in 639-2, so > there is no need for a macrolanguage (Tonga?) > 3. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so there is > a macrolanguage (Mari) > 4. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so one of > them should be a macrolanguage but isn't. (??) > > I wanted confirmation that #4 was empty. For my part, I've assumed all along that SIL got it right with regard to the parenthesized country or region names, that "X (Indonesia)" and "X (Philippines)" are truly different languages and not regional variants or otherwise related. I've certainly assumed that #4 is empty. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 15:20:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J169f-0005oY-T8; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:20:07 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J169e-0005oQ-VG for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:20:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J169e-0005oC-KU for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:20:06 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J169c-0004ui-MR for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:20:06 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J169T-0006eJ-DV for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 20:19:55 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 20:19:55 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 20:19:55 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:21:48 +0100 Organization: Lines: 77 Message-ID: References: <002f01c839c7$9b1db670$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > One of the big objections that people had to switching > to UTF-8 was that the non-ASCII characters might get > munged in transit. This passage was added specifically > to calm those nerves. I'm aware of these "people", you're talking about John and me, and John cried "doom". While I hate UTF-8 for the registry I never doubted that IANA and reviewer will figure it out. IIRC John's "doom" was also about folks discussing on a mailing list, and for that part I still support it. =20 Even Martin is sometimes annoyed with his own MUA, I hope I finally convinced my W2K that nothing is wrong with his encoding. > People criticized the fact that 4646 didn't specify=20 > where the completed forms could be found. Yes, because IANA didn't collect and publish them. You fixed that, and I found the pages on their site without looking into 4646bis. IANA is free to reorganize their Web site, and then old URIs in an RFC are a royal PIT* (Just an example, I try to post on register@uri.arpa ) > We didn't want chains, but even more so, we didn't > want to break the stability of the Preferred-Value > field. IOW we got it wrong, let's fix it while we're at it. "Stability of Preferred-Value" makes no sense, the X -> Z shortcut for X -> Y -> Z can't cause harm. > Regarding cycles, I think if you want to rely on=20 > IANA and the LSR to get things right rather than > adding MUSTard, you surely ought to give them (or > at least me, as Co-Designated Expert) credit for > detecting and avoiding cycles. But it was you who said that "un-drepecating" isn't allowed. Maybe you'd also say that adding Y -> X to a given X -> Y is at is, because the X can't be "un-drepecated". For the hypothetical FX example if we'd end up with FX deprecated in favour of FX it's obvious, but longer cycles are harder to spot. > This was added in direct response to fears expressed > during LTRU 1.0 (which I did not share) that people > would abuse private subtags. He-who-must-not-be-named will do what he likes, it's a waste of time to tell the world how it has to judge such inventions. > Addison and Mark (like me) are editors, not authors You *insist* on being an editor, for Addison that's a=20 bit fictitious, isn't it ? Inventing countries isn't what I consider as editorial freedom. For 4646 we had Randy's list of tracked issues with his decisions, but that was his list, it's quite possible that I hit an old issue because I forgot it / changed my mind / was never happy with his decision / whatever. > It's always fair to ask why something is there or how > it got there, but the answer might well be "because=20 > everyone insisted on it N months or years ago." If I wanted X months ago, and now want "not X" without saying that and why I changed my mind, it's sad, but not intentionally bad, just point it out. In cases=20 such as "UTF-8 instead of NCRs" I want tons of "not X" because the former X was designed to work with NCRs. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 15:34:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J16ND-0006Vh-MS; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:34:07 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J16NB-0006GH-Tw for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:34:05 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J16NB-00069h-D1 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:34:05 -0500 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J16N9-0005Ba-Tr for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:34:05 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071208203402.LGSK21128.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:34:02 -0500 Message-ID: <006e01c839d9$ac0def60$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:34:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Subject: [Ltru] Re: "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> It's going to be confusing no matter what we do > > Confusing is one thing, but two different language > codes with the same description would be *broken*. Of course, at least one of the subtags would have to have the description with parenthetical comment (individual/macro, or region). I never suggested that two subtags would have the exact same description. Indeed, that was a big point I raised months ago over "ASCII transliterations": there are certain "minimal pairs" that become identical if you remove diacritics. > Seriously, who lies about "sw", the registry or > SIL ? Did we miss a bulk update of 639-1 codes ? > I know that we talked about info in parentheses, > but not this "Swahili" ambiguity, or did we ? 639-1 and 639-2 do not have this type of parenthetical information, because for them there are no macrolanguages, no regional language-name colisions, and no ambiguity. We did have this discussion before. The reason it comes up again is that, now that my attention has been called to the "no inverted names" rule in 4646bis, it became clear that some of the 639-2 inverted names like "Greek, Modern (1453-)" would be removed. As long as that is the case, I wanted to know if "Ainu" and "Ainu (Japan)" both have to be retained, and if "Swahili" and "Swahili (macrolanguage)" both have to be retained, because the only purpose for keeping all of them is to have both 639-2 and 639-3 names, which is no longer guaranteed anyway. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 15:48:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J16bO-0001PJ-70; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:48:46 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J16bN-0001Lq-HP for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:48:45 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J16bN-0001LJ-7a for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:48:45 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J16bM-0005TS-RX for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:48:45 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J16bE-00032I-Gq for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 20:48:36 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 20:48:36 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 20:48:36 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:50:25 +0100 Organization: Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81><20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712080938t36e47861gfccdd65f4d2b56cf@mail.gmail.com><002601c839c3$aec71df0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Obsolete descriptions (was: "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)") X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: >> 3066 and 4646 went to great lengths that this is >> not possible, including a promise from ISO in the >> text. =20 > Whate are you referring to? I am not aware that > IETF requested any promises from ISO wrt descriptions. Bottom of : The promise in RFC 3066 and 4646 is about alpha-2 and alpha-3 codes, for an existing alpha-3 code for a language (identified by its description) there won't be a new alpha-2 code (with the same description because it's the same language). My interpretation wrt the case at hand added in parentheses. =20 >> The SIL pages claim that the description for "sw" >> is "Swahili (macrolanguage)". The 4646 registry >> claims that it's "Swahili", at least one of them >> is wrong. =20 > SIL's pages in relation to this entry in ISO 639-3 > are not wrong wrt ISO 639. Then the 4646 registry must be wrong, it's supposed to reflect whatever description ISO 639-1 offers for an alpha-2 code. Caveat, I looked up the ISO 639-1 "sw" on the SIL Web form, not some ISO 639-3 "sw". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 16:07:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J16tm-00040i-Ir; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:07:46 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J16tl-0003wd-L1 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:07:45 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J16tl-0003vo-Af for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:07:45 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J16tk-0005v9-6Z for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:07:45 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J16te-0006UI-8t for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:07:38 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:07:38 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:07:38 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:09:19 +0100 Organization: Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <006e01c839d9$ac0def60$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > 639-1 and 639-2 do not have this type of parenthetical information Peter or John (or both) said that this will be coordinated for all parts of ISO 639, and I made sure to select "639-1" on the Web form where I got "Swahili (macrolanguage)" for "sw". Is there another source for this stuff ? I trashed my old 639-2 bookmark in favour of 639-3. > I wanted to know if "Ainu" and "Ainu (Japan)" both have to be=20 > retained At least the latter has to be kept, otherwise you get a collison. > if "Swahili" and "Swahili (macrolanguage)" both have to be > retained Or "Swahili (individual language)", only a collision won't fly. No collision at all would be better. Maybe it has to be decided case by case, using the unqualified description for the "better" code, sometimes the "(individual language)" might be "worse" (?) Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 16:30:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17G3-00069c-4l; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:30:47 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J17G2-00069N-51 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:30:46 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17G1-00069F-Qx for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:30:45 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17G1-0002l9-Du for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:30:45 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071208213044.JAAG16492.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:30:44 -0500 Message-ID: <007c01c839e1$978d8c00$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:30:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Obsolete descriptions (was: "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)") X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >>> The SIL pages claim that the description for "sw" is "Swahili >>> (macrolanguage)". The 4646 registry claims that it's "Swahili", at >>> least one of them is wrong. >> >> SIL's pages in relation to this entry in ISO 639-3 are not wrong wrt >> ISO 639. > > Then the 4646 registry must be wrong, it's supposed to reflect > whatever description ISO 639-1 offers for an alpha-2 code. Caveat, I > looked up the ISO 639-1 "sw" on the SIL Web form, not some ISO 639-3 > "sw". The ISO 639-2 site says 'sw' is "Swahili". The ISO 639-3 site says 'sw' is "Swahili (macrolanguage)". Nobody's lying. The two RA's don't agree on this level of detail. Probably nobody thought of it before; look how long it took us to get around to it. Replying to me: >> 639-1 and 639-2 do not have this type of parenthetical information > > Peter or John (or both) said that this will be coordinated for all > parts of ISO 639, and I made sure to select "639-1" on the Web form > where I got "Swahili (macrolanguage)" for "sw". They're not coordinated. I suspect that one day they will be, but they're not yet. > Is there another source for this stuff ? I trashed my old 639-2 > bookmark in favour of 639-3. I wouldn't do that, if you want to cross-check the 4645bis work. Both sources are still relevant. I did trash my 639-1 bookmark, but only because everything important points to the 639-2 site anyway. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 16:36:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Ll-00027t-5L; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:36:41 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Lk-00027o-5V for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:36:40 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Lj-00027f-Of for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:36:39 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Li-0002sW-J7 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:36:39 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:36:37 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.117]) with mapi; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:36:38 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:36:30 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Topic: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Thread-Index: Acg51ejYzYz8PhwJRRKaoxSViLYqqQABocGQ Message-ID: References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712081130k3c83c415jfc3f6c2ae1b2b1a6@mail.gmail.com> 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megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Wj-0005oA-5i; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:48:01 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Wh-0005eu-1n for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:47:59 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Wg-0005em-O9 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:47:58 -0500 Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net ([80.76.149.213]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17We-0006pB-Kr for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:47:58 -0500 Received: from c83-248-85-53.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.85.53]:4250 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J17Wc-0002Xm-9R; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 22:47:55 +0100 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'Mark Davis'" , "'Peter Constable'" References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81><30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20712081130k3c83c415jfc3f6c2ae1b2b1a6@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712081207n1e8f99dpb2fca7ba34e22b9f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: RE: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:47:40 +0100 Message-ID: <015a01c839e3$fc607b40$2559f853@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712081207n1e8f99dpb2fca7ba34e22b9f@mail.gmail.com> Thread-Index: Acg51erKCFcv2WlFQeqcw7xj9dCkOwABH4Ww X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.85.53 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1J17Wc-0002Xm-9R. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1J17Wc-0002Xm-9R 9d70e282e9401b42c6f0a8034edf354d X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 9f79b8e383fd3af2b1b5b1d0910f6094 Cc: 'Doug Ewell' , 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0275123973==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0275123973== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_015B_01C839EC.5E24E340" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_015B_01C839EC.5E24E340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark Davis wrote: Sorry. What I mean is, when you look at the list I sent out, there are = lots of duplicate names, like Mari, Konkani, Kare, etc. Some of those = have macrolanguage relationships (like Mari), and some don't (like = Ainu). There are 4 possible classes of duplicates:=20 1. They have no genetic relationship, thus there is no macrolanguage = (Ainu) 2. They have a genetic relationship, but neither was in 639-2, so there = is no need for a macrolanguage (Tonga?) 3. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so there is a = macrolanguage (Mari)=20 4. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so one of = them should be a macrolanguage but isn't. (??) I wanted confirmation that #4 was empty.=20 Regarding 2: =20 tnz I L Tonga Tonga (Thailand) 4=20 tog I L Tonga Tonga (Nyasa) 4=20 toi I L Tonga Tonga (Zambia) 4=20 ton to I L Tonga Tonga (Tonga Islands) 4=20 =20 Given the geographical spread here, it seems unlikely that these four = are all related... And Ethnologue says they are not related, not even the Nyasa (Malawi) = and Zambia ones. =20 But in general, if there is a macrolanguage relationship that should = have been noted in 639-3 quite regardless of 639-2, should it not. If not, I think = something is wrong (and then I'm especially happy that the extlang reserved feature will = not be used). =20 Regarding the country parentheticals, I'm not too happy about them = either. A language may well be spoken, in a significant fraction, outside of the country of origin. And the display names, in at least one display name generator, will turn out strange. Take tnz as an example: =20 tnz Tonga (Thailand) tnz-TH Tonga (Thailand) (Thailand) tnz-MY Tonga (Thailand) (Malaysia) =20 Compare to: =20 th Thai th-TH Thai (Thailand) =20 "Tonga (Thailand)" could be (mis)read as "Tonga as spoken in Thailand" (with some extra implications for locale choice, which may also imply (default) currency choice). =20 While not directly an LTRU issue, it's close enough I think. =20 =20 /kent k =20 ------=_NextPart_000_015B_01C839EC.5E24E340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Mark Davis wrote:
Sorry. What I=20 mean is, when you look at the list I sent out, there are lots of = duplicate=20 names, like Mari, Konkani, Kare, etc. Some of those have macrolanguage = relationships (like Mari), and some don't (like Ainu). There are 4 = possible=20 classes of duplicates:

1. They have no genetic relationship, = thus=20 there is no macrolanguage (Ainu)
2. They have a genetic = relationship, but=20 neither was in 639-2, so there is no need for a macrolanguage = (Tonga?)
3.=20 They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so there is a=20 macrolanguage (Mari)
4. They have a genetic relationship, and one = was in=20 639-2, so one of them should be a macrolanguage but isn't. = (??)

I=20 wanted confirmation that #4 was empty. 
Regarding 2:
 
tnz   I L Tonga  Tonga (Thailand) 4 =
tog   I=20 L Tonga  Tonga (Nyasa) 4
toi   I L Tonga  Tonga = (Zambia)=20 4
ton to I L Tonga  Tonga (Tonga Islands) 4 =
 
Given the geographical spread here, it seems unlikely that = these four are=20 all related...
And Ethnologue says they are not related, not even = the Nyasa=20 (Malawi) and Zambia ones.
 
But in general, if there is a macrolanguage relationship that = should have=20 been noted in
639-3 quite regardless of 639-2, should it not. If = not, I think=20 something is wrong
(and then I'm especially happy that the extlang reserved = feature will not=20 be used).
 
Regarding the country parentheticals, I'm not too happy about = them=20 either.
A language may well be spoken, in a significant fraction, = outside of=20 the
country of origin. And the display names, in at least one = display=20 name
generator, will turn out strange. Take tnz as an=20 example:
 
tnz          &= nbsp;=20 Tonga (Thailand)
tnz-TH       Tonga = (Thailand)=20 (Thailand)
tnz-MY      Tonga (Thailand)=20 (Malaysia)
 
Compare to:
 
th         Thai
th-TH    Thai (Thailand)
 
"Tonga (Thailand)" could be (mis)read as "Tonga as spoken in=20 Thailand"
(with some extra implications for locale choice, which may=20 also
imply (default) currency choice).
 
While not directly an LTRU issue, it's close enough I=20 think.
 
 
       &nbs= p;   =20 /kent k
 
------=_NextPart_000_015B_01C839EC.5E24E340-- --===============0275123973== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0275123973==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 16:48:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Wq-0006LQ-Bg; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:48:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Wp-0006H8-7Q for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:48:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Wo-0006Gz-Tq for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:48:06 -0500 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J17Wo-0006pV-Gh for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:48:06 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:48:05 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.185]) with mapi; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:48:05 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:47:53 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Obsolete descriptions (was: "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)") Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Obsolete descriptions (was: "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)") Thread-Index: Acg527xI6ULolpLURHChfoGtlyK0tgABveow Message-ID: References: <000501c83960$e8e514f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81><20071208064801.GC22311@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20712080938t36e47861gfccdd65f4d2b56cf@mail.gmail.com><002601c839c3$aec71df0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1635255800==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1635255800== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBGcm9tOiBGcmFuayBFbGxlcm1hbm4gW21haWx0bzpub2JvZHlAeHl6enkuY2xhcmFuZXQuZGVd DQoNCj4gPj4gMzA2NiBhbmQgNDY0NiB3ZW50IHRvIGdyZWF0IGxlbmd0aHMgdGhhdCB0aGlzIGlz DQo+ID4+IG5vdCBwb3NzaWJsZSwgaW5jbHVkaW5nIGEgcHJvbWlzZSBmcm9tIElTTyBpbiB0aGUN Cj4gPj4gdGV4dC4NCj4NCj4gPiBXaGF0ZSBhcmUgeW91IHJlZmVycmluZyB0bz8gSSBhbSBub3Qg YXdhcmUgdGhhdA0KPiA+IElFVEYgcmVxdWVzdGVkIGFueSBwcm9taXNlcyBmcm9tIElTTyB3cnQg ZGVzY3JpcHRpb25zLg0KPg0KPiBCb3R0b20gb2YgPGh0dHA6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1s L3JmYzQ2NDYjcGFnZS05PjoNCj4NCj4gVGhlIHByb21pc2UgaW4gUkZDIDMwNjYgYW5kIDQ2NDYg aXMgYWJvdXQgYWxwaGEtMg0KPiBhbmQgYWxwaGEtMyBjb2RlcywgZm9yIGFuIGV4aXN0aW5nIGFs cGhhLTMgY29kZQ0KPiBmb3IgYSBsYW5ndWFnZSAoaWRlbnRpZmllZCBieSBpdHMgZGVzY3JpcHRp b24pDQo+IHRoZXJlIHdvbid0IGJlIGEgbmV3IGFscGhhLTIgY29kZSAod2l0aCB0aGUgc2FtZQ0K PiBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBiZWNhdXNlIGl0J3MgdGhlIHNhbWUgbGFuZ3VhZ2UpLg0KDQpSaWdodC4g VGhhdCBoYXMgbm90aGluZyB3aGF0c29ldmVyIHRvIGRvIHdpdGggZGVzY3JpcHRpb25zLg0KDQoN Cg0KPiA+IFNJTCdzIHBhZ2VzIGluIHJlbGF0aW9uIHRvIHRoaXMgZW50cnkgaW4gSVNPIDYzOS0z DQo+ID4gYXJlIG5vdCB3cm9uZyB3cnQgSVNPIDYzOS4NCj4NCj4gVGhlbiB0aGUgNDY0NiByZWdp c3RyeSBtdXN0IGJlIHdyb25nLCBpdCdzIHN1cHBvc2VkDQo+IHRvIHJlZmxlY3Qgd2hhdGV2ZXIg ZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gSVNPIDYzOS0xIG9mZmVycyBmb3INCj4gYW4gYWxwaGEtMiBjb2RlLiAgQ2F2 ZWF0LCBJIGxvb2tlZCB1cCB0aGUgSVNPIDYzOS0xDQo+ICJzdyIgb24gdGhlIFNJTCBXZWIgZm9y bSwgbm90IHNvbWUgSVNPIDYzOS0zICJzdyIuDQoNClRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIDYzOS0zICJzdyIuDQoN ClRoZSBzaXRlIGZvciA2MzktMyBsaXN0cyByZWZlcmVuY2UgbmFtZXMgYXMgdGhleSBleGlzdCBp biA2MzktMy4gVGhlIDYzOS0yIHNpdGUgbGlzdHMgbmFtZXMgYmFzZWQgbWFpbmx5IG9uIG5hbWVz IGFzIHRoZXkgZXhpc3RlZCBpbiA2MzktMSBhbmQgNjM5LTIgcHJpb3IgdG8gNjM5LTMuIChTb21l IGNoYW5nZXMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIG1hZGUgc2luY2UgNjM5LTMgd2FzIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCkgRm9yIDYz OS0yLCB0aGVyZSBpc24ndCB0aGUgc2FtZSBkZW1hbmQgb24gdGhlIFJBIHRvIGFkZCBxdWFsaWZp ZXJzIHRvIHRoZSBuYW1lcyB0aGV5IHJlY29yZCBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIG5hbWluZyBj b25mbGljdCBpbiA2MzktMi4gKEluIGNhc2VzIHdoZXJlIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgbmFtaW5nIGNvbmZs aWN0IGluIDYzOS0yLCBxdWFsaWZpZXJzIGhhdmUgYWx3YXlzIGJlZW4gYWRkZWQuKQ0KDQpJbiBw cmluY2lwbGUsIGl0J3MgcmVhc29uYWJsZSB0byBleHBlY3QgdGhlIG5hbWVzIGZvciA2Mzkgd291 bGQgYXBwbHkgY29uc2lzdGVudGx5IGFjcm9zcyBhbGwgcGFydHMuIEluIHByYWN0aWNlLCB0aGUg NjM5LTIgUkEgaGFzIGJlZW4gcmVsdWN0YW50IHRvIG1ha2UgY2hhbmdlcyB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIG5v dCBiZSBtZWFuaW5nZnVsIGZvciB0aGVpciBhdWRpZW5jZSB1bnRpbCB0aGV5IHNlZSBzb21lIHJl YXNvbmFibGUgbWl0aWdhdGlvbi4NCg0KQXQgdGhpcyBwb2ludCAoaS5lLiA0NjQ2YmlzIGVyYSks IEkgc2VlIG5vIHJlYXNvbiB3aHkgdGhlIExTUiBjb3VsZCBub3QgcmVseSBzb2xlbHkgb24gZGF0 YSBwcm92aWRlZCBieSB0aGUgNjM5LTMgUkEuDQoNCg0KDQpQZXRlcg0K --===============1635255800== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1635255800==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 17:27:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J188f-0000qG-3U; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:27:13 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J188e-0000qB-Kq for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:27:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J188e-0000q3-Ar for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:27:12 -0500 Received: from bortzmeyer.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J188c-0007jI-Rk for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:27:12 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id D96CD240824; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:26:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4A3D41114B; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:23:45 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:23:45 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Frank Ellermann Message-ID: <20071208222345.GA25691@sources.org> References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> <4759B2E9.5000106@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Broken folding (was: (editor response) Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2007 at 04:34:59PM +0100, Frank Ellermann wrote a message of 73 lines which said: > Do they offer a list of combining characters somewhere, or is that a > case of "grep 996 KB list for non-zero combining class" ? I believe that combining characters are simply those who are in the categories "Mark, Nonspacing", "Mark, Spacing Combining" and "Mark, Enclosing", no? If so, it is quite simple to extract them: ucd=> SELECT To_U(codepoint) AS U_Codepoint, name FROM Characters WHERE category = 'Mn' OR category = 'Mc' OR category = 'Me' ORDER BY codepoint; u_codepoint | name -------------+----------------------------------------------------------- U+300 | COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT U+301 | COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT U+302 | COMBINING CIRCUMFLEX ACCENT ... (1065 rows) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 17:37:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18IJ-0007Su-GW; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:37:11 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J18II-0007NK-NW for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:37:10 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18II-0007Kc-Cj for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:37:10 -0500 Received: from bortzmeyer.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18IH-00085E-Tg for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:37:10 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 96A0C240824; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:36:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 675C51114B; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:34:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:34:58 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Frank Ellermann Message-ID: <20071208223458.GA26660@sources.org> References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2007 at 06:47:13PM +0100, Frank Ellermann wrote a message of 145 lines which said: > | from > | "http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/". > > What next, tell their Web master what software they have > to use, or how to run backups ? You have some interesting points but this one, I cannot understand. Do you mean we should *not* mandate a given URI? If so, I strongly disagree, we need a stable URI and the best way to have it is to write it down clearly in the RFC (of course, the IANA is welcome to tell us that http://www.iana.org/assignments/templates/lang-subtags/ would be better, if they prefer, but the important point is that it should be written down and not modified afterwards). This has nothing to do with the HTTP server they use because URI are seen externally so they are important for users of the RFC (unlike the backup policy, where only the result matters). _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 17:38:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18JD-0008Re-6J; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:38:07 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J18JB-0008LY-5p for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:38:05 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18JA-0008LL-Fr for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:38:04 -0500 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.177]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18J9-00086n-PI for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:38:04 -0500 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k40so3210354wah for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:38:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=y6tHuQl3jiNMtOLMIV5Gnekth6PqALAwny1DnLUSR5A=; b=j4q9QsFmLNUkoB4Ej0N7hY8wYnN62iujrphOlBLE/+bicu1fAn/DOwttv6coC+2z353P9NzodwSsILuqwfLkWK3IVkzvTABgTGSMeunbhOjFc7IpIZlUWt9hkQHZ4be5H1nPm6mlPPccuXHBve7XZwjesCMvUOl98glOda4nMFM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=m9g5UwwdV2Wh6mGBScM08lLhsakonTMHrKECbbpT6sP+S5+CTsE/L3wMXnMOyYJipb3Q+nhnzRQZz3WaGsqUmyPwmhF6BoWiH/NozUWJqMJ2zMQ50aX+Tn1AkD/HF8eQr3Q08cz2VjNmOmWMiYyBj0CmXe4FTctwbleIi/LkBms= Received: by 10.114.199.1 with SMTP id w1mr718449waf.1197153483200; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.192.9 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:38:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712081438w4f889e39jf9a7987cb6f43968@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:38:03 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712081130k3c83c415jfc3f6c2ae1b2b1a6@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712081207n1e8f99dpb2fca7ba34e22b9f@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 17101d402c10d683 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c54bc2f42d02429833c0ca4b8725abd7 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0026423099==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0026423099== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1775_26401050.1197153483196" ------=_Part_1775_26401050.1197153483196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Fair enough; I'm not trying to argue with you on this, just trying to get the picture straight in my own mind. And since there are only a small number of language names (4) that need to be distinguished with " (macrolanguage)" and " (individual language)", it is really not a big deal; I guess we can just leave that issue to UI designers to deal with. Mark On Dec 8, 2007 1:36 PM, Peter Constable wrote: > #4 is **not** empty; but your classifications are too simplistic for the > actual data. In particular, I consider the assumption that if there is a > genetic relationship and one is in 639-2 that therefore it should be a > macrolanguage to be invalid. > > > > Potential cases of languages > > - with the same > > - genetically related > > - one is in 639-2 but is not a macrolanguage encompassing the > other(s) > > > > include the following (item in 639-2 listed first): > > > > bas vs. bzw: These are two Niger-Congo languages separated at a genetic > level that encompasses 961 languages. > > > > bem vs. bey: These are two Bantoid languages separated at a genetic level > that encompasses 513 languages. > > > > fan vs. fak: These are two Bantoid languages separated at a genetic level > that encompasses 659 languages > > > > luo vs. luw: luw is not yet classified, so this pair may or may not fit > the criteria. They are not regionally contiguous. Also, luw is all but > extinct (known speaker population = 1), so there's likely no body of > documents, and hence no useful reason to consider it encompassed by luo. > > > > Now, in the first three cases, geographic proximity might provide a basis > to say that a macrolanguage is appropriate in spite of the genetic distance. > But because of the distance it's really a stretch to suppose that anyone > would find it useful to tag documents from the two varieties the same. > > > > > > Peter > ------=_Part_1775_26401050.1197153483196 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Fair enough; I'm not trying to argue with you on this, just trying to get the picture straight in my own mind. And since there are only a small number of language names (4) that need to be distinguished with " (macrolanguage)" and " (individual language)", it is really not a big deal; I guess we can just leave that issue to UI designers to deal with.

Mark

On Dec 8, 2007 1:36 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

#4 is *not* empty; but your classifications are too simplistic for the actual data. In particular, I consider the assumption that if there is a genetic relationship and one is in 639-2 that therefore it should be a macrolanguage to be invalid.

 

Potential cases of languages

-          with the same

-          genetically related

-          one is in 639-2 but is not a macrolanguage encompassing the other(s)

 

include the following (item in 639-2 listed first):

 

bas vs. bzw: These are two Niger-Congo languages separated at a genetic level that encompasses 961 languages.

 

bem vs. bey: These are two Bantoid languages separated at a genetic level that encompasses 513 languages.

 

fan vs. fak: These are two Bantoid languages separated at a genetic level that encompasses 659 languages

 

luo vs. luw: luw is not yet classified, so this pair may or may not fit the criteria. They are not regionally contiguous. Also, luw is all but extinct (known speaker population = 1), so there's likely no body of documents, and hence no useful reason to consider it encompassed by luo.

 

Now, in the first three cases, geographic proximity might provide a basis to say that a macrolanguage is appropriate in spite of the genetic distance. But because of the distance it's really a stretch to suppose that anyone would find it useful to tag documents from the two varieties the same.

 

 

Peter

------=_Part_1775_26401050.1197153483196-- --===============0026423099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0026423099==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 17:42:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18N7-0003sB-W4; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:42:09 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J18N7-0003s1-CV for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:42:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18N7-0003rc-2N for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:42:09 -0500 Received: from virtual3.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18N6-0008Cq-Pp for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:42:09 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 28870240824; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:41:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 55F561114B; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:37:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:37:32 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Nicolas Krebs Message-ID: <20071208223732.GB26660@sources.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Swiss German and Alsatian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2007 at 04:52:09PM +0100, Nicolas Krebs wrote a message of 32 lines which said: > by example to change prefix for alsacian from de to gsw (de is > German language, not germanic languages). I do not understand. Currently, there is no subtag "alsatian" (I believe this is the correct orthography in english). I know that alsatian is not a dialect of german ("de") but a dialect of alemannic ("gsw") but, today, it is not registered and hence has no prefix (full disclosure: I'm working on a request to register it. Interested people may join me). _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 17:50:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18VF-0002JW-Ta; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:50:33 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J18VF-0002JR-Bb for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:50:33 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18VF-0002JI-0b for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:50:33 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18VE-0004vx-KF for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:50:32 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071208225031.HUEX20723.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 17:50:31 -0500 Message-ID: <008501c839ec$bcf53230$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <003701c839c9$b3342d50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81><30b660a20712081115v7eb67a1ci52e43763e61be39f@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20712081130k3c83c415jfc3f6c2ae1b2b1a6@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20712081207n1e8f99dpb2fca7ba34e22b9f@mail.gmail.com> <015a01c839e3$fc607b40$2559f853@streamserve.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:50:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Kent Karlsson wrote: > Regarding 2: > > tnz I L Tonga Tonga (Thailand) 4 > tog I L Tonga Tonga (Nyasa) 4 > toi I L Tonga Tonga (Zambia) 4 > ton to I L Tonga Tonga (Tonga Islands) 4 > > Given the geographical spread here, it seems unlikely that these four > are all related... > And Ethnologue says they are not related, not even the Nyasa (Malawi) > and Zambia ones. I'm satisfied that they are unrelated, and I'm convinced that if they were, SIL would have noticed this and coded or described them differently. I don't see any disagreement here. > Regarding the country parentheticals, I'm not too happy about them > either. A language may well be spoken, in a significant fraction, > outside of the country of origin. The parenthesized country names are just to indicate which Tonga we are talking about. Ethnologue shows that Tonga (Thailand) is also spoken in Malaysia. (Ignore the bit about "may be extinct" for now; it's an example.) > And the display names, in at least one display name generator, will > turn out strange. Take tnz as an example: > > tnz Tonga (Thailand) > tnz-TH Tonga (Thailand) (Thailand) > tnz-MY Tonga (Thailand) (Malaysia) Do you have an alternative suggestion that will satisfy the WG members who want Description fields to match the ISO names? For user interfaces, of course, you can rename these languages as you please. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 17:59:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18dr-0002m1-9H; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:59:27 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J18dq-0002lw-Jm for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:59:26 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18dq-0002lj-98 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:59:26 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18dp-00056g-VZ for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:59:26 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071208225924.JDUV4022.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 17:59:24 -0500 Message-ID: <008701c839ed$fa2cede0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:59:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Obsolete descriptions (was: "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)") X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > At this point (i.e. 4646bis era), I see no reason why the LSR could > not rely solely on data provided by the 639-3 RA. Not solely, of course, since the LSR includes collective "languages" from 639-2 that do not exist in 639-3, but which must remain in the LSR. Other than that, though, are you saying that the names from 639-2 that are not in 639-3 should be removed from the LSR? Bear in mind that the language names recently added to 639-2 and the LSR (Bedawiyet, Dene Suline, Kapampangan, etc.) are not yet in the available 639-3 download files. Accepting 639-3 without also considering 639-2 would take the LSR back a few steps. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 18:20:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18yX-0006um-DO; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 18:20:49 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J18yW-0006uh-P8 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 18:20:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18yW-0006uO-FC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 18:20:48 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J18yU-0000dm-7L for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 18:20:48 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J18yO-00080r-IF for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 23:20:40 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 23:20:40 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 23:20:40 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 00:22:39 +0100 Organization: Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071208223458.GA26660@sources.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: =20 > Do you mean we should *not* mandate a given URI? Yes. =20 They have old Web pages, among them "numbers.html", and if=20 I pick "L" (for language tags) I arrive at: | Language Tags=20 | Language Subtag Registry RFC4646=20 | Expert Review (Experts - Michael Everson and Doug Ewell)=20 | Language Subtag Registry - Registration Templates RFC4646 | These are the Registration Templates only.=20 [... and more for the old 3066 registry ...] They also have new pages below http://beta.iana.org, with http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-forms/index.html (broken link, maybe they forgot to run a checklink, or they intend to create a new overview page for the new site later) We better don't try a micromanagement of their Web pages in 4646bis. > If so, I strongly disagree, we need a stable URI and the > best way to have it is to write it down clearly in the RFC I'd be pissed if they move the collected templates around, but I wouldn't go so far to say this in an RFC. =20 > the important point is that it should be written down and > not modified afterwards Written down on their matrix page, or in 4646bis ? I'd hate it if the URL in the RFC is broken, I'd hate it if they move pages around, and I hate it that the beta-link doesn't work. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 08 22:06:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1CUb-0002Re-Vx; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 22:06:09 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1CUa-0002Mn-Da for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 22:06:08 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1CUa-0002JI-1Q for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 22:06:08 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1CUZ-0002oa-Kc for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Dec 2007 22:06:07 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 19:06:06 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 19:06:07 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 19:05:58 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Obsolete descriptions (was: "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)") Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Obsolete descriptions (was: "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)") Thread-Index: Acg57fz7jY58mB/CTPabsjygctjBAAAIizug Message-ID: References: <008701c839ed$fa2cede0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <008701c839ed$fa2cede0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0987529968==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0987529968== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SG1tbS4uLiBJIHdhcyB0aGlua2luZyBjaGFuZ2VzIHRvIDYzOS0yIHdlcmUgc3luYydkIGluIDYz OS0zLg0KDQpBbmQgSSBrZWVwIG92ZXJsb29raW5nIGNvbGxlY3Rpb25zICh3aGljaCBJIHRoaW5r IGFyZSBub3QgdGVycmlibHkgdXNlZnVsIGluIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ3MpLg0KDQoNClBldGVyDQoN Cj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogRG91ZyBFd2VsbCBbbWFpbHRv OmRld2VsbEByb2FkcnVubmVyLmNvbV0NCj4gU2VudDogU2F0dXJkYXksIERlY2VtYmVyIDA4LCAy MDA3IDI6NTkgUE0NCj4gVG86IExUUlUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cA0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBbTHRydV0g UmU6IE9ic29sZXRlIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9ucyAod2FzOiAiWCIgdnMuICdYDQo+IChtYWNyb2xhbmd1 YWdlKSIpDQo+DQo+IFBldGVyIENvbnN0YWJsZSA8cGV0ZXJjb24gYXQgbWljcm9zb2Z0IGRvdCBj b20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPg0KPiA+IEF0IHRoaXMgcG9pbnQgKGkuZS4gNDY0NmJpcyBlcmEpLCBJIHNl ZSBubyByZWFzb24gd2h5IHRoZSBMU1IgY291bGQNCj4gPiBub3QgcmVseSBzb2xlbHkgb24gZGF0 YSBwcm92aWRlZCBieSB0aGUgNjM5LTMgUkEuDQo+DQo+IE5vdCBzb2xlbHksIG9mIGNvdXJzZSwg c2luY2UgdGhlIExTUiBpbmNsdWRlcyBjb2xsZWN0aXZlICJsYW5ndWFnZXMiDQo+IGZyb20gNjM5 LTIgdGhhdCBkbyBub3QgZXhpc3QgaW4gNjM5LTMsIGJ1dCB3aGljaCBtdXN0IHJlbWFpbiBpbiB0 aGUgTFNSLg0KPg0KPiBPdGhlciB0aGFuIHRoYXQsIHRob3VnaCwgYXJlIHlvdSBzYXlpbmcgdGhh dCB0aGUgbmFtZXMgZnJvbSA2MzktMiB0aGF0DQo+IGFyZSBub3QgaW4gNjM5LTMgc2hvdWxkIGJl IHJlbW92ZWQgZnJvbSB0aGUgTFNSPyAgQmVhciBpbiBtaW5kIHRoYXQgdGhlDQo+IGxhbmd1YWdl IG5hbWVzIHJlY2VudGx5IGFkZGVkIHRvIDYzOS0yIGFuZCB0aGUgTFNSIChCZWRhd2l5ZXQsIERl bmUNCj4gU3VsaW5lLCBLYXBhbXBhbmdhbiwgZXRjLikgYXJlIG5vdCB5ZXQgaW4gdGhlIGF2YWls YWJsZSA2MzktMyBkb3dubG9hZA0KPiBmaWxlcy4gIEFjY2VwdGluZyA2MzktMyB3aXRob3V0IGFs c28gY29uc2lkZXJpbmcgNjM5LTIgd291bGQgdGFrZSB0aGUNCj4gTFNSIGJhY2sgYSBmZXcgc3Rl cHMuDQo+DQo+IC0tDQo+IERvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEZ1bGxlcnRvbiwgQ2FsaWZvcm5pYSwgVVNB ICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNA0KPiBodHRwOi8vaG9tZS5yb2FkcnVubmVyLmNvbS9+ ZGV3ZWxsDQo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVy Lmh0bWwNCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1s YW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGDQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQ0K --===============0987529968== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0987529968==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 00:10:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1ERB-0004U7-4R; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:10:45 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1ERA-0004Pt-Aj for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:10:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1ER9-0004Nl-UO for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:10:43 -0500 Received: from mta16.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1ER9-0007i3-5x for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:10:43 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta16.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071209051042.BULS5365.mta16.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2007 00:10:42 -0500 Message-ID: <00b601c83a21$d947c3f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:10:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > I'm aware of these "people", you're talking about John and me, and > John cried "doom". While I hate UTF-8 for the registry I never > doubted that IANA and reviewer will figure it out. IIRC John's "doom" > was also about folks discussing on a mailing list, and for that part I > still support it. Well, anyway, that's why there's a passage in 4646bis about making sure the UTF-8 doesn't get munged. Sorry if that seems like micromanagement. I thought there was at least one person who was sure the communication between LSR and IANA would never work. >> We didn't want chains, but even more so, we didn't want to break the >> stability of the Preferred-Value field. > > IOW we got it wrong, let's fix it while we're at it. "Stability of > Preferred-Value" makes no sense, the X -> Z shortcut for X -> Y -> Z > can't cause harm. Remember in LTRU 1.0 when we had an "issue tracker" ? Wouldn't that be handy right about now? >> Regarding cycles, I think if you want to rely on IANA and the LSR to >> get things right rather than adding MUSTard, you surely ought to give >> them (or at least me, as Co-Designated Expert) credit for detecting >> and avoiding cycles. > > But it was you who said that "un-drepecating" isn't allowed. It isn't. We're talking about Preferred-Value "cycles" of the form X -> Y -> X, right? If you're not confident we're going to cross-check for such things anyway, looking at the Deprecated field probably isn't going to help us much. > Maybe you'd also say that adding Y -> X to a given X -> Y is at is, > because the X can't be "un-drepecated". For the hypothetical FX > example if we'd end up with FX deprecated in favour of FX it's > obvious, but longer cycles are harder to spot. I think I could spot them. It's not as if we are going to have dozens and dozens of deprecated subtags that we can't keep track of. Not everything that is deprecated has to have a Preferred-Value anyway. >> This was added in direct response to fears expressed during LTRU 1.0 >> (which I did not share) that people would abuse private subtags. > > He-who-must-not-be-named will do what he likes, it's a waste of time > to tell the world how it has to judge such inventions. Actually I was thinking of Harald's review of a pre-LTRU draft, in which he first wrote "Private-use subtags are simply useless for information exchange without prior arrangement": http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2004-June/002062.html > You *insist* on being an editor, for Addison that's a bit fictitious, > isn't it ? Inventing countries isn't what I consider as editorial > freedom. Addison wasn't the only one who wanted to add the exceptionally reserved 3166 codes; otherwise our arguments against it might have carried a bit more weight. This is an interesting topic for you and me to discuss, because we disagree with the (unofficial) rough consensus for opposite reasons: I don't like changing the rules to treat the EU as a country for language ID purposes; you are OK with the EU but don't like the islands and Spanish Africa. But anyway, Addison didn't "invent" Ascension Island and Clipperton and the rest; though he was quick to add them to the draft, most of the WG agreed with him. > If I wanted X months ago, and now want "not X" without saying that and > why I changed my mind, it's sad, but not intentionally bad, just point > it out. In cases such as "UTF-8 instead of NCRs" I want tons of "not > X" because the former X was designed to work with NCRs. I really don't want to go back over decisions that have been made. That has cost us months and months of time that we could have spent moving forward. Replacing hex NCRs with UTF-8 is one of those decisions. I realize I'm also guilty of grumbling over lost battles, and I will try to stop doing that and look forward. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 00:45:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1EyJ-00088e-4c; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:44:59 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1EyI-000856-1j for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:44:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1EyH-00082f-N9 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:44:57 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1EyH-0008DZ-Dp for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:44:57 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J1EyH-0002vB-4g; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:44:57 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 00:44:57 -0500 To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B Message-ID: <20071209054456.GE22311@mercury.ccil.org> References: <00b601c83a21$d947c3f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00b601c83a21$d947c3f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > I thought there was at least one person who was sure the communication > between LSR and IANA would never work. That would be me. I'm still more than doubtful, and will be very quick with the ITYS when there's corruption in the registry for the first time. -- Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML John Cowan Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker cowan@ccil.org saying "No information items inside". http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Eve Maler _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 00:49:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1F2r-00041E-P2; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:49:41 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1F2q-000414-Af for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:49:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1F2q-00040v-0x for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:49:40 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1F2p-0008I8-QT for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:49:40 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J1F2p-0003AU-GV; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:49:39 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 00:49:39 -0500 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Broken folding (was: (editor response) Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4) Message-ID: <20071209054939.GF22311@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> <4759B2E9.5000106@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > 1 - input was Example:foldme > 2 - folded is Example:foldme > 3 - output is Example:foldme > > Your "folding" lost the space here, I see no way to protect it. > The folks who created STD 11 etc. knew what they were up to, > and the whole world knows how STD 11 folding works. This is quite compelling, and I think we should consider changing it. There's no backward-compatibility hit for the registry, but there is a hit for existing parsing code. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Any day you get all five woodpeckers is a good day. --Elliotte Rusty Harold _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 00:51:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1F4N-0005A0-AD; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:51:15 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1F4L-00059t-KT for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:51:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1F4L-00059l-Ao for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:51:13 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1F4L-0008JU-4b for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:51:13 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J1F4K-0003N4-SD; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:51:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 00:51:12 -0500 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 Message-ID: <20071209055112.GG22311@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > Dubious example, what if ISO 639-3 adds 'ma' to the 'sh' set ? Not gonna happen. Macedonian is bogus Bulgarian, not split-off Serbo-Croat. > At a price, 'sh' is deprecated, and 'sh' has no Suppress-Script. > You picked certainly an interesting example for this business. Yes, 'sh' isn't a good example. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan In the sciences, we are now uniquely privileged to sit side by side with the giants on whose shoulders we stand. --Gerald Holton _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 00:57:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1FAn-0003s6-7I; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:57:53 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1FAm-0003pY-7b for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:57:52 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1FAl-0003ml-Sn for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:57:51 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1FAl-0008Oj-HP for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:57:51 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J1FAl-0003eF-57; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:57:51 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 00:57:51 -0500 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B Message-ID: <20071209055751.GH22311@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > | IANA MUST > > I consider a "MUST" while talking with IANA as rude. What, after they just botched updating the File-Date record? Give me a break. > There is far too much MUSTard in the I-D, MUSTard > should be reserved for cases where ignoring it is > both plausible and would cause havoc. It has been ignored in the past and it has created havoc. > Can we please at least consider that neither IANA nor > expert are idiots ? Idiots, no; prone to careless mistakes, definitely. People are not protocol engines. > > 4.1: s/Sometimes there is a choice/There is always a choice/, > > which is much nearer the truth. > > It's "almost always" then. Can you think of a counterexample? (Hint: It requires a language with no language distinctions, script distinctions, or variant distinctions.) > BTW, I vaguely recall that we didn't want chains: You didn't want them, you mean. Everyone else had no trouble with them. > > 8 [record-jar]: add "chapter 5". > > Not sure what you're talking about. The bibliographic entry for [record-jar] is incomplete. > | Future work on the Language Subtag Registry has been > | limited to inserting or replacing whole records > | preformatted for IANA by the Language Subtag Reviewer > | as described in Section 3.3 of this document and archiving > | and making publically available the forwarded registration > | form. > > Is that an attempt to kill the 4( ALPHA ) reservation ? Of course not. It means that under *this* (future) RFC there won't be any. BCP 47 can always be revised by issuing a new RFC. > > My suggestions for invalid tags are xxx-Defg-HQ, > > de-1996-1996, en-nedis, and ar-a-aaa-b-bbb-a-ccc. > > The xxx-Defq-HQ isn't guaranteed to be invalid forever, > or did I miss a clue ? There are four reasons for invalidity, expressed by the four examples. One is inherently temporal (unknown subtag); the others are eternal. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led. And through the air. I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. --Bilbo _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 01:46:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1FvU-0005kC-DH; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 01:46:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1FvT-0005fV-AI for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 01:46:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1FvS-0005f2-Sw for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 01:46:06 -0500 Received: from mta20.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.254] helo=mta1.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1FvS-0000mE-By for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 01:46:06 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071208005033.VBOX21128.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 19:50:33 -0500 Message-ID: <02fb01c83934$5740b440$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:50:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > The affected text begins "Languages with a Macrolanguage field" and > ends "did not specify zh-Hans-CN in their request.)". > ... s/In some cases, In some cases,/In some cases,/ s/to fallback/to fall back/ (two words when used as a verb) Otherwise, this rewrite looks great to me, and in particular it does a great job of explaining the macrolanguage concept, which is often misunderstood. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 04:34:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1IYM-0005jO-3g; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:34:26 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1IYK-0005jH-D0 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:34:24 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1IYD-0004yq-VO for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:34:17 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1IYC-0000gv-3A for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:34:17 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1IY9-0005pb-5r for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 09:34:13 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.168]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 09:34:13 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 09:34:13 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 10:36:10 +0100 Organization: Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071209055751.GH22311@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: =20 >>| IANA MUST >> I consider a "MUST" while talking with IANA as rude. =20 > What, after they just botched updating the File-Date > record? Give me a break.
Do you think they will be more careful when we're rude in 4646bis ? Don't try this approach with me, it would backfire ;-) >> Can we please at least consider that neither IANA=20 >> nor expert are idiots ? =20 > Idiots, no; prone to careless mistakes, definitely. > People are not protocol engines. Full metal jacket, they're also not Marines following orders. >>> /There is always a choice/, which is much nearer the truth. >> It's "almost always" then. =20 =20 > Can you think of a counterexample? (Hint: It requires a > language with no language distinctions, script distinctions, > or variant distinctions.) Yes, I had i-default in mind, but noting why I think that there is no choice by definition would be an essay. And I was too lazy to check if any other i-whatever is left (=3D not deprecated). >> BTW, I vaguely recall that we didn't want chains: > You didn't want them, you mean. Everyone else had no > trouble with them. Maybe. It's a plausible source of unnecessary trouble, see "prone to careless mistakes" above, that also hits implementors and other registry users. >> Is that an attempt to kill the 4( ALPHA ) reservation ? > Of course not. It means that under *this* (future) RFC > there won't be any. BCP 47 can always be revised by=20 > issuing a new RFC. Good. A pointless statement apparently, of course it's not possible to modify a published RFC 4646bis, why do we tell IANA this ? IANA is familiar with the concept "RFC". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 04:40:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1Ids-0005eu-SV; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:40:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1Idr-0005XY-Qs for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:40:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1Idr-0005Ux-FW for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:40:07 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1Idq-0000mw-6t for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:40:07 -0500 Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1Idm-0006tb-0X for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 09:40:02 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.168]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 09:40:02 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 09:40:02 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 10:39:29 +0100 Organization: Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071209055112.GG22311@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: >> what if ISO 639-3 adds 'ma' to the 'sh' set ? =20 > Not gonna happen. Macedonian is bogus Bulgarian, > not split-off Serbo-Croat. Ugh, sorry, I confused "ma" with Montenegrin. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 04:55:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1IsI-0005qf-EF; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:55:02 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1IsH-0005qS-7l for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:55:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1IsG-0005qK-UN for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:55:00 -0500 Received: from mta18.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.54] helo=mta18.adelphia.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1IsF-00013l-E5 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:55:00 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071207145929.YBXL16909.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:59:29 -0500 Message-ID: <015e01c838e1$c5062350$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: , "LTRU Working Group" References: <20071207110004.53D372596FB@eikenes.alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 06:59:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: Amanda Baber via RT Subject: [Ltru] Re: The blunder of the year X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (Hopefully the last cross-post on this topic) Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> The registry was updated yesterday (addition of many scripts like >> Armi) and File-Date was *not* modified :-( > > It was fixed yesterday by the new update (the Suppress-Script for > german languages). This statement puzzled me, so I checked. The only difference between today's LSR and yesterday's is that the File-Date has been corrected. There were no other changes to the content. The Suppress-Script fields Stephane mentioned were added with the 2007-11-06 release. Thanks to Amanda Baber at IANA for getting these changes in for us. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 05:16:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1JDC-0001p1-LH; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:16:38 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1JDA-0001oQ-Um for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:16:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1JDA-0001oF-Kl for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:16:36 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1JD9-0001Xs-V6 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:16:36 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1JD2-0002vw-SO for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:16:28 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.168]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:16:28 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:16:28 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:18:23 +0100 Organization: Lines: 78 Message-ID: References: <00b601c83a21$d947c3f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > We're talking about Preferred-Value "cycles" of the form > X -> Y -> X, right? Yes, e.g. MY changing its name (and code) back to BU. It could be more convoluted. =20 > If you're not confident we're going to cross-check for=20 > such things anyway, looking at the Deprecated field=20 > probably isn't going to help us much. IMO you can't add a new "deprecated, now use BU" to MY, and keep the old "deprecated, now use MY" in BU. You also can't say that the "new" BU is a collision with the old BU, and therefore MY needs a "deprecated, now use UN number". Somebody, it wasn't me, had a "same piece of land" plausibility test for such weird scenarios, that used to produce good results. [longer chains] > I think I could spot them. It's not as if we are > going to have dozens and dozens of deprecated subtags > that we can't keep track of. Likely you can, actually that's the idea, if you get it right, and if you update the Preferred-values, then we don't need to worry that everybody else get this right (in implementations or other uses of "chained" records) > I was thinking of Harald's review of a pre-LTRU draft, > in which he first wrote "Private-use subtags are simply > useless for information exchange without prior arrangement" He's right, but it's IMO no surprise worth to be noted in the RFC, immediately followed by a "MAY be not useless". > This is an interesting topic for you and me to discuss,=20 > because we disagree with the (unofficial) rough consensus > for opposite reasons: I don't like changing the rules to > treat the EU as a country for language ID purposes; you > are OK with the EU but don't like the islands and Spanish > Africa. Oops, no, I also don't like EU, sorry if that was unclear. Very remotely EU might make sense, but s/QU/EU/ in CLDR won't help them with QO, besides they're free to use EU now as far as I'm concerned. And "very remotely" means "long after UK was registered as deprecated in favour of GB (or vice versa)", I also don't like UK after the years of LTRU brain washing. I still remember that folks can confuse UK with GB for obvious reasons in real language tags - for EU I've difficulties to imagine a real use in a language tag. =20 For the rest of the zoo I can imagine how registering EA might help to start a war, or end up as "evidence" in a=20 UK (or GB :-) court case related to DG. =20 >> In cases such as "UTF-8 instead of NCRs" I want tons >> of "not X" because the former X was designed to work >> with NCRs. =20 > I really don't want to go back over decisions that have > been made. You wanted UTF-8, now we have to fix the rest of the draft a.k.a. eating our dogfood. "72" (and arguably "folding") were not designed for UTF-8, they were designed for "view an NCR registry as ASCII". Demoting "72" to SHOULD while keeping "folding" as defined in RFC 822 (i.e. no grapheme folding, just don't if you can't) is as constructive as I can manage it for this modification. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 05:25:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1JLV-0002Pw-UW; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:25:13 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1JLU-0002Pq-7F for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:25:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1JLT-0002Pi-Ts for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:25:11 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1JLS-0001mv-LN for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:25:11 -0500 Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1JLK-0004El-LW for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:25:02 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.168]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:25:02 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:25:02 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:22:46 +0100 Organization: Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <20071207110004.53D372596FB@eikenes.alvestrand.no> <015e01c838e1$c5062350$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-168.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: The blunder of the year X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > This statement puzzled me, so I checked. Me too (puzzled), thanks for checking. From St=E9phanes=20 report I incorrectly deduced that they lost and found again the Suppress-Scripts already added in November. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 07:58:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1Lk2-0006Zf-Cu; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 07:58:42 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1Lk0-0006ZT-SD for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 07:58:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1Lk0-0006ZL-Ib for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 07:58:40 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1Ljy-0004xF-Ch for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 07:58:40 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sun, 9 Dec 2007 04:58:37 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.111]) with mapi; Sun, 9 Dec 2007 04:58:37 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 04:58:29 -0800 Subject: Montenegrin what-if (was RE: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1) Thread-Topic: Montenegrin what-if (was RE: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1) Thread-Index: Acg6R37/ow+Q5nECRkCgzHXEy2sCqgAFCqwQ Message-ID: References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071209055112.GG22311@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Frank Ellermann [mailto:nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de] > >> what if ISO 639-3 adds 'ma' to the 'sh' set ? > > > Not gonna happen. Macedonian is bogus Bulgarian, > > not split-off Serbo-Croat. > > Ugh, sorry, I confused "ma" with Montenegrin. Coding Montenegrin as a distinct individual language would be a bit messy. = Right now, sh/hbs encompasses three individual-language entries, Bosnian (b= s/bos), Croatian (hr/hrv/scr) and Serbian (sr/srp/scc). (Note: 639-2 coded = separate T and B IDs for Croatian and Serbian.) If Montenegrin were coded, = we'd be looking at a split of the existing Serbian. Therefore, we'd have to= code *two* new languages: 'xxx' Serbian (Serbia, 2007) 'yyy' Montenegrin (Some reference name for the new Serbian would have to be coined to differe= ntiate it from the old Serbian, and/or maybe the name for the old Serbian c= ould be changed. I haven't a clue what names to use.) Now there are is the issue of how these relate to the existing entries. The= re are two options; I'll describe these in terms of 639-3 IDs, "MM" =3D mac= rolanguage mapping: A) ID Scope MM Status hbs M - bos I hbs hrv I hbs srp I hbs deprecated (use xxx or yyy) xxx I hbs yyy I hbs B) ID Scope MM Status hbs M - bos I hbs hrv I hbs srp M hbs xxx I srp yyy I srp With option B, we would also face the problem of what best practice should = be for tagging new "Serbian" content: use srp or xxx? (Software platforms w= ould also face the same problem in relation to locales.) Option A assumes t= hat there would be no new use of srp for tagging content. (Software platfor= ms would also need new xxx locales.) I think it's fairly obvious that either of these options would present seve= ral problems in implementation. Btw, the linguistic reality is that a distinct language did not suddenly po= p into existence. Hence, if the split were coded, it's quite likely that lo= ts of content / language resources would be created once for both. With eit= her option A or B, we're likely to end up with lots of inconsistency in tag= ging. Also btw, there has been no formal request submitted to the JAC to code Mon= tenegrin. The question of adding Montenegrin was raised with the JAC, but g= iven the many issues that would create, the JAC has chosen to take a wait-a= nd-see stance. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 11:27:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1P09-000262-MR; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 11:27:33 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1P08-00025q-Rw for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 11:27:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1P08-00025g-I3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 11:27:32 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1P06-000247-Cv for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 11:27:32 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J1P03-0003NO-TJ; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 11:27:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:27:27 -0500 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B Message-ID: <20071209162727.GJ22311@mercury.ccil.org> References: <00b601c83a21$d947c3f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > IMO you can't add a new "deprecated, now use BU" to > MY, and keep the old "deprecated, now use MY" in BU. Clearly not. > You also can't say that the "new" BU is a collision > with the old BU, and therefore MY needs a "deprecated, > now use UN number". Why not? -- Take two turkeys, one goose, four John Cowan cabbages, but no duck, and mix them http://www.ccil.org/~cowan together. After one taste, you'll duck cowan@ccil.org soup the rest of your life. --Groucho _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 15:54:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1TAA-0001Xd-CB; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:54:10 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1TA9-0001XN-8H for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:54:09 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1TA8-0001XC-Sk for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:54:08 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1TA8-0003kG-5i for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:54:08 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071209205407.NQWN21514.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2007 15:54:07 -0500 Message-ID: <001e01c83aa5$a435c020$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 12:54:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> We're talking about Preferred-Value "cycles" of the form X -> Y -> X, >> right? > > Yes, e.g. MY changing its name (and code) back to BU. It > could be more convoluted. > ... > IMO you can't add a new "deprecated, now use BU" to > MY, and keep the old "deprecated, now use MY" in BU. > > You also can't say that the "new" BU is a collision > with the old BU, and therefore MY needs a "deprecated, > now use UN number". Draft-4646bis-10, section 3.4 says: 14. Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, or ISO 3166 that conflict with existing subtags of the associated type, including subtags that are deprecated, MUST NOT be entered into the registry. The following additional considerations apply to subtag values that are reassigned: D. For ISO 3166 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is associated with the same UN M.49 code as another 'region' subtag, then the existing region subtag remains as the preferred value for that region and no new entry is created. A comment MAY be added to the existing region subtag indicating the relationship to the new ISO 3166 code. E. For ISO 3166 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is associated with a UN M.49 code that is not represented by an existing region subtag, then the Language Subtag Reviewer, as described in Section 3.5 (Registration Procedure for Subtags), SHALL prepare a proposal for entering the appropriate UN M.49 country code as an entry in the IANA registry. So if UNSD retains the M.49 numeric code 104 for the new "Burma," as they did when the name was changed to Myanmar, then the subtag MY remains as is. If UNSD changes their policy as does assign a new numeric code, say 105, then the numeric code 105 would be registered for "Burma" and MY would be deprecated with a Preferred-Value of 105. This is unequivocal, and appears to be the same text as in RFC 4646. Is there a compelling reason to change this LTRU 1.0 decision? > Somebody, it wasn't me, had a "same piece of land" > plausibility test for such weird scenarios, that used > to produce good results. That was me, as you know, and that seat-of-the-pants test mentioned in one e-mail was rightly replaced by an objective test based on UN M.49. > [longer chains] >> I think I could spot them. It's not as if we are going to have >> dozens and dozens of deprecated subtags that we can't keep track of. > > Likely you can, actually that's the idea, if you get it > right, and if you update the Preferred-values, then we > don't need to worry that everybody else get this right > (in implementations or other uses of "chained" records) There are two issues being discussed together here: 1. "Chained" Preferred-Values such as i-hak -> zh-hakka -> hak. IIRC, this is the only example so far, but there could easily be more in the future. These are not that hard to implement, and the worst-case scenario if someone doesn't follow the chain is that a deprecated subtag gets replaced by another deprecated subtag, which is not devastating. 2. "Cycles" of Preferred-Values caused by inappropriate chaining. One of Frank's examples was BU -> MM -> BU. If we follow Section 3.4 (14) quoted above, this should never happen, and even if there is some scenario not covered by Section 3.4 (14) it is the responsibility of the Reviewer and his elves, NOT end users, to prevent this from happening. >> I was thinking of Harald's review of a pre-LTRU draft, >> in which he first wrote "Private-use subtags are simply >> useless for information exchange without prior arrangement" > > He's right, but it's IMO no surprise worth to be noted in > the RFC, immediately followed by a "MAY be not useless". Perhaps you may want to debate the point with Harald. (I happen to agree with you that the warning isn't really necessary, but see no real harm in it.) > Oops, no, I also don't like EU, sorry if that was unclear. I take that back; it was UK that you said you didn't have a problem with. My apologies. >> I really don't want to go back over decisions that have been made. > > You wanted UTF-8, now we have to fix the rest of the draft a.k.a. > eating our dogfood. "72" (and arguably "folding") were not designed > for UTF-8, they were designed for "view an NCR registry as ASCII". > Demoting "72" to SHOULD while keeping "folding" as defined in RFC 822 > (i.e. no grapheme folding, just don't if you can't) is as constructive > as I can manage it for this modification. While I don't understand the 72-byte limitation either (though I could understand a 72-character limitation), I don't see what the big deal is, or why UTF-8 "breaks" the existing folding algorithm. In practice, for scripts that use white space between words (Latin, Greek, Cyrillic, Arabic, Hebrew, etc.) the algorithm will be reduced to "fold on white space." For some East Asian scripts, it gets more complex, but I don't see why it is a showstopper. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 16:00:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1TGa-0000Ze-L3; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 16:00:48 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1TGa-0000WZ-8F for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 16:00:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1TGZ-0000UC-Ti for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 16:00:47 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1TGX-0003IW-Os for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 16:00:47 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071209210045.OCMK21514.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2007 16:00:45 -0500 Message-ID: <002a01c83aa6$913682b0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 13:00:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Montenegrin what-if X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > Coding Montenegrin as a distinct individual language would be a bit > messy. At least from a BCP 47 standpoint, the only conceivable reason to code Montenegrin separately would be political, because the linguistic differences can be captured adequately using "sr-ME" as opposed to "sr-RS". -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 09 23:33:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1aKK-0007uT-L8; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 23:33:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1aKI-0007uM-UC for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 23:33:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1aKI-0007uE-J2 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 23:33:06 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1aKG-0005ua-Bl for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 23:33:06 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1aKC-0000LV-At for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:33:00 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-8.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.8]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:33:00 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-8.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:33:00 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 05:34:56 +0100 Organization: Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <00b601c83a21$d947c3f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071209162727.GJ22311@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-8.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: =20 ["my BU": there and back again] >> You also can't say that the "new" BU is a collision >> with the old BU, and therefore MY needs a "deprecated, >> now use UN number". =20 > Why not? It fails in a giggle test, like the "revived FX" example. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 10 02:47:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1dMQ-0005Dt-F4; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 02:47:30 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1dMP-0005Do-Cn for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 02:47:29 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1dMM-0005Da-Db for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 02:47:26 -0500 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.199]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1dMM-0003sy-3b for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 02:47:26 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071210074725.HSHM21514.mta9.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 02:47:25 -0500 Message-ID: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 23:47:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Subject: [Ltru] draft-4645bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Editor's copies of draft-4645bis-03 have been posted to my site: http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-03.txt http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-03.html Anyone who wants a preview of these before I submit them to Internet-Drafts, probably Tuesday or Wednesday, is invited to take a look and report any errors. As a reminder, even with the removal of 1,400-plus inverted names, these are still huge files (up to 819 kB for text version) and care should be taken before downloading them via a slow connection, or printing any but the first few and last few pages. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 10 03:24:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1dwL-0004Im-4z; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:24:37 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1dwJ-0004If-Vl for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:24:35 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1dwJ-0004IX-LM for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:24:35 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1dwI-0004iW-Vm for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:24:35 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lBA8OVMA022619 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:24:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 5457_54be4d58_a6f9_11dc_9cac_0014221fa3c9; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:24:30 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:57275) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:20:30 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071210170040.098e14c0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:01:47 +0900 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Nicolas Krebs From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Swiss German and Alsatian In-Reply-To: <20071208223732.GB26660@sources.org> References: <20071208223732.GB26660@sources.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have absolutely nothing against figuring out how to tag Alsatian, but I'd like to know why gsw-fr (which would be usable without registering a variant) wouldn't do the job. Regards, Martin. At 07:37 07/12/09, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >On Sat, Dec 08, 2007 at 04:52:09PM +0100, > Nicolas Krebs wrote > a message of 32 lines which said: > >> by example to change prefix for alsacian from de to gsw (de is >> German language, not germanic languages). > >I do not understand. Currently, there is no subtag "alsatian" (I >believe this is the correct orthography in english). I know that >alsatian is not a dialect of german ("de") but a dialect of alemannic >("gsw") but, today, it is not registered and hence has no prefix (full >disclosure: I'm working on a request to register it. Interested people >may join me). > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 01:44:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1yqe-00023u-Ep; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:44:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1yqd-00023b-7S for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:44:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1yqc-00023O-EC for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:44:06 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1yqa-0008Gq-9j for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:44:06 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J1yqZ-0005AA-So for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:44:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:44:03 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20071211064403.GH25311@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Subject: [Ltru] What is EU for in locales? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Before the extraordinarily reserved 3166 code elements get baked into BCP 47 forever, I'd like to know what EU is supposed to be for. I'm not necessarily rejecting the notion that EU (or currently QU) is sensible in locale tags, which though not formally language tags are closely related. But just what does EU/QU mean in locale tags? -- Even the best of friends cannot John Cowan attend each others' funeral. cowan@ccil.org --Kehlog Albran, The Profit http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 02:50:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1zse-00049X-Ty; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 02:50:16 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J1zse-00049S-II for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 02:50:16 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1zsY-000491-7T for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 02:50:10 -0500 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1zsW-00063h-U7 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 02:50:09 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lBB7o45Q013186 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:50:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 4147_af5375da_a7bd_11dc_8d9a_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:50:04 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:47840) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:46:04 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:48:42 +0900 To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 01:16 07/12/07, Peter Constable wrote: >Content-Language: en-US >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@roadrunner.com] > >> >> That's my whole point - the danger that specs writers might look at >> >> the dropped extlang and say "they are dropping features between >> >> versions of BCP 47, so we better refer to an RFC *only* and even >> >> leave 'or its successor' out". >> > >> > But this is a key: we are *not* dropping any features. We are >> dropping >> > the possibility of a future feature. The change to the ABNF (whether >> > by removing the extlang subtag entirely or by renaming and/or >> > comments) is to clean it up so that implementers do not implement for >> > non-and-never-to-be-features. >> >> I think what Felix meant was not that we are dropping features, but >> that >> it may appear to the outside observer that we are dropping features. > >I understood that. But I think it's significant that we are *not* removing >any features, and it seems to me that could be explained easily enough. [chairs hat OFF] It looks like this could be explained easily enough, but I'm quite sure that this won't be the case. XML, and XML Schema, are very strictly defined languages. Fortunately, we managed to get XML away from including a grammar for language tags in an early erratum/ corrigendum. But if XML Schema has indeed used RFC 4646 for defining the syntactic range of language tags, then we should not remove some productions. It is clear to us as well as to them that there cannot be any valid language tags of the form ab-cde-fgh. But these tags, in RFC 4646 and therefore in XML Schema version foo, are well-formed. If they change to be non-wellformed in a new version of XML Schema, that essentially means that there are potentially some documents that conform to a schema in one version of XML Schema, but not in a newer one. Even if these language tags have not been valid, and don't make sense, that's a very bad idea. As an extreme example, such a tag may by accident be part of a document used for managing a nuclear plant. With a software update, the document could suddently become non-conforming, triggering some error. Peter, I recommend that you talk to some XML Schema folks inside Microsoft to understand some of their thinking. I'm sure Felix can provide some points of reference if needed. As for implementation effort, I agree that leaving the extlang production in increases implementation effort. But quite a bit of it can be saved by knowing that these aren't really used anymore (i.e. implementations only have to do the parsing for them, they don't have to provide any additional functionality). Also, we already have a long list of tests and some regular expressions out there which cover extlangs, which both can help implementers. Regards, Martin. >The only real stability concern is that some existing parsers would >recognize certain hypothetical tags they might encounter as being well >formed when in fact they are not well formed. What possible malicious >effect could this have? Is this a tag in a query statement? It very likely >won't match any content. Is this a tag attributed to content? There likely >won't be any requests for it. Only in some closed system in which somebody >decided to use proprietary extlang subtags are both going to exist by >design. If the parser is encountering a tag somehow constructed such that >it has a not-by-design extlang, it won't be catching an condition that >could be considered an error, but the error will still be reflected in a >failure to match anything, and the essential fix must be in the process >*constructing* that tag rather than in the parser. > > >Peter >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 05:06:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2207-0001Oj-4q; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 05:06:07 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2205-0001LI-AA for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 05:06:05 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2204-0001L7-PF for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 05:06:04 -0500 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2202-0004WJ-95 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 05:06:04 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lBBA5ulV015327 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:05:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3e36_aa58b24e_a7d0_11dc_83e4_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:05:56 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:50181) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:01:56 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071211185919.098e79c0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:00:04 +0900 To: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B In-Reply-To: References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071209055751.GH22311@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 18:36 07/12/09, Frank Ellermann wrote: >John Cowan wrote: > >>>| IANA MUST >>> I consider a "MUST" while talking with IANA as rude. > >> What, after they just botched updating the File-Date >> record? Give me a break. > >
Do you think they >will be more careful when we're rude in 4646bis ? I concur with Frank that MUSTard in the IANA section serves no purpose. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 07:32:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J24Hg-00053a-HQ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:32:24 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J24Hf-00053U-0A for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:32:23 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J24He-00053M-LI for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:32:22 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J24Hd-0004Nh-Ai for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:32:22 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF402BBF8; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:32:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ErVnga6VBeSG; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:32:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p5011-ipad402marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.146.117.11]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C3D2BBE6; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:32:08 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:32:02 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > At 01:16 07/12/07, Peter Constable wrote: > >> Content-Language: en-US >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> >>> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@roadrunner.com] >>> >>>>> That's my whole point - the danger that specs writers might look at >>>>> the dropped extlang and say "they are dropping features between >>>>> versions of BCP 47, so we better refer to an RFC *only* and even >>>>> leave 'or its successor' out". >>>>> >>>> But this is a key: we are *not* dropping any features. We are >>>> >>> dropping >>> >>>> the possibility of a future feature. The change to the ABNF (whether >>>> by removing the extlang subtag entirely or by renaming and/or >>>> comments) is to clean it up so that implementers do not implement for >>>> non-and-never-to-be-features. >>>> >>> I think what Felix meant was not that we are dropping features, but >>> that >>> it may appear to the outside observer that we are dropping features. >>> >> I understood that. But I think it's significant that we are *not* removing >> any features, and it seems to me that could be explained easily enough. >> > > [chairs hat OFF] > > It looks like this could be explained easily enough, but I'm quite > sure that this won't be the case. XML, and XML Schema, are very > strictly defined languages. Fortunately, we managed to get XML > away from including a grammar for language tags in an early erratum/ > corrigendum. But if XML Schema has indeed used RFC 4646 for defining > the syntactic range of language tags, then we should not remove > some productions. This is a repetition, but maybe useful in this long thread. The W3C i18n core Working Group asked the XML Schema Working Group to use the RFC 4646 syntactic range of language tags for XML Schema 1.1 (datatypes), see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3079#c2 (search for "here RFC 4646 grammar") We assumed that the RFC 4646 ABNF will be stable, and since XML Schema 1.0 (datatypes) uses the ABNF from RFC 3066 http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#language it seems natural to propose for XML Schema 1..1 to have the RFC 4646 ABNF for XML Schema 1.1. Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 08:34:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J25FZ-0006aJ-I5; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:34:17 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J25FY-0006aE-DG for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:34:16 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J25FY-0006a6-3X for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:34:16 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J25FV-0008Tj-Pu for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:34:16 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id D9C221C0126; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:34:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D517B1C0142; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:34:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E4B830CA9; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:33:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:33:42 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Addison Phillips Message-ID: <20071211133342.GA23524@nic.fr> References: <475638DC.7070702@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <475638DC.7070702@yahoo-inc.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10: submission X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 09:36:28PM -0800, Addison Phillips wrote a message of 3092 lines which said: > Please find attached draft-10 of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis in the usual > text format. It was apparently not properly sent because it is not in the I-D database (which is a big problem since there are already a lot of reviews). Did you use the new "real-time" tool at https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/upload.cgi? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 08:41:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J25MN-0002LP-L6; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:41:19 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J25MM-0002Ic-6l for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:41:18 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J25ML-0002IT-Sb for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:41:17 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J25ML-0005sx-Io for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:41:17 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id E2F291C00F9; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:41:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4F041C00DA; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:41:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977B5830C4F; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:41:16 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:41:16 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20071211134116.GA24694@nic.fr> References: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-4645bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, Dec 09, 2007 at 11:47:25PM -0800, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 26 lines which said: > Editor's copies of draft-4645bis-03 have been posted to my site: I love this one: Type: language Subtag: nb Description: Norwegian Bokmål Macrolanguage: no I first thought it means Bokmal has no encompassing macrolanguage :-) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 09:52:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26T7-0005MH-0Z; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:52:21 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J26T6-0005MC-1a for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:52:20 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26T5-0005M4-OD for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:52:19 -0500 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26T4-0001oh-7Z for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:52:19 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071211145215.GMNF27764.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:52:15 -0500 Message-ID: <003401c83c05$6bd7d8b0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071211134116.GA24694@nic.fr> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 06:52:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-4645bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > I love this one: > > Type: language > Subtag: nb > Description: Norwegian Bokmål > Macrolanguage: no > > I first thought it means Bokmal has no encompassing macrolanguage :-) See also: Type: language Subtag: yes Description: Yeskwa Added: 2029-09-09 -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 10:17:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26rZ-0003aD-J8; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:17:37 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J26rY-0003a0-6u for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:17:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26rX-0003Zs-TY for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:17:35 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26rT-0002IJ-Cm for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:17:35 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J26rK-00073v-A5; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:17:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:17:22 -0500 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B Message-ID: <20071211151721.GA18393@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071209055751.GH22311@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211185919.098e79c0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071211185919.098e79c0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst scripsit: > I concur with Frank that MUSTard in the IANA section > serves no purpose. We have plenty of MUSTard in the LSR section, and in sections describing the desired actions of people who submit forms for review. Registration is a very complicated protocol with lots of human parts as well as computers, and the human parts are the more important parts. IANA is just one of those, neither better nor worse than the rest. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Charles li reis, nostre emperesdre magnes, Set anz totz pleinz ad ested in Espagnes. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 10:21:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26vC-00021S-KJ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:21:22 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J26vB-0001wd-Fk for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:21:21 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26vB-0001wV-5z for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:21:21 -0500 Received: from maila.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26vA-0002MW-Ns for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:21:21 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.114) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:21:20 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.114]) with mapi; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:21:19 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:21:18 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg78eNUBCnSfp2BR5y6f8WGvzYUcgAFze/w Message-ID: References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org If XML Schema 1.1 is still a work in progress, and assuming 4646bis wraps u= p quickly (which I hope will be the case), why would it not be possible (an= d, indeed, why would it not be welcomed) to suggest that XML Schema 1.1 use= ABNF from 4646bis that differs from 4646 by removing a never-to-be-used co= nstruct and hence is simpler? Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org] > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:32 AM > To: Martin Duerst > Cc: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? > > Martin Duerst wrote: > > At 01:16 07/12/07, Peter Constable wrote: > > > >> Content-Language: en-US > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" > >> > >> > >>> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@roadrunner.com] > >>> > >>>>> That's my whole point - the danger that specs writers might look > at > >>>>> the dropped extlang and say "they are dropping features between > >>>>> versions of BCP 47, so we better refer to an RFC *only* and even > >>>>> leave 'or its successor' out". > >>>>> > >>>> But this is a key: we are *not* dropping any features. We are > >>>> > >>> dropping > >>> > >>>> the possibility of a future feature. The change to the ABNF > (whether > >>>> by removing the extlang subtag entirely or by renaming and/or > >>>> comments) is to clean it up so that implementers do not implement > for > >>>> non-and-never-to-be-features. > >>>> > >>> I think what Felix meant was not that we are dropping features, but > >>> that > >>> it may appear to the outside observer that we are dropping > features. > >>> > >> I understood that. But I think it's significant that we are *not* > removing > >> any features, and it seems to me that could be explained easily > enough. > >> > > > > [chairs hat OFF] > > > > It looks like this could be explained easily enough, but I'm quite > > sure that this won't be the case. XML, and XML Schema, are very > > strictly defined languages. Fortunately, we managed to get XML > > away from including a grammar for language tags in an early erratum/ > > corrigendum. But if XML Schema has indeed used RFC 4646 for defining > > the syntactic range of language tags, then we should not remove > > some productions. > This is a repetition, but maybe useful in this long thread. > > The W3C i18n core Working Group asked the XML Schema Working Group to > use the RFC 4646 syntactic range of language tags for XML Schema 1.1 > (datatypes), see > http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3D3079#c2 (search for "here > RFC 4646 grammar") > We assumed that the RFC 4646 ABNF will be stable, and since XML Schema > 1.0 (datatypes) uses the ABNF from RFC 3066 > http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#language > it seems natural to propose for XML Schema 1..1 to have the RFC 4646 > ABNF for XML Schema 1.1. > > Felix > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 10:24:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26yK-0006lr-IL; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:24:36 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J26yJ-0006b0-60 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:24:35 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26yI-0006aU-Re for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:24:34 -0500 Received: from mailc.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J26yI-0008HJ-Ih for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:24:34 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:24:33 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.185]) with mapi; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:24:33 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:24:33 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg7ynKY1xPrOQwPTvuoveL0D1eJsAAP0WzA Message-ID: References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > Peter, I recommend that you talk to some XML Schema folks inside > Microsoft to understand some of their thinking. I'm sure Felix > can provide some points of reference if needed. I can do that. Is Paul Cotton still involved in that, or is there someone e= lse? Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 10:45:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27Ie-0005fi-4u; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:45:36 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J27Ic-0005SL-Lh for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:45:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27Ic-0005SD-Bs for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:45:34 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.229]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27IZ-0002x9-Lq for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:45:34 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id n1so855192nzf for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:45:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=80CdNxb719KnOYGyvaKsl/b87IlpVjsre2q0STI5UyU=; b=AVMV5/8hAy40s7MIE0CGxAbiC0jkfWbhxMH0TiAB9ey41IlqiWI8ofLuD71Tov1eZS8xYPpBCru5Xfc7kiaO6Cnqz6bOizk3GNTpRbTZbSvLqeywEvGDULjpVi61egd6ZHarPMdCo01bp+O+UUxYUiYGBqpYR+dtLWSbN1xiAmc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=OIlCeXvIN9xUnMq3Pe/C66o5LnNfU4IuNv+wWC9vEcErmSabJPGwo6ZDW4hbV9751d6sFwjLK8TYjmpZ/52ZL1Tx49PLyK/90GyAHDd8ECr6xmxOnOOfza8v1QSECgeOL1MoFf+KuKIpjYfAd/nTWGfiDtbo6xrgsgPsfE/1h5k= Received: by 10.142.131.18 with SMTP id e18mr1075552wfd.1197387929875; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.128.8 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:45:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712110745g711046acw1cb0f58859d5f574@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:45:29 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Martin Duerst" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c9328021d133eb87 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 29dc808194f5fb921c09d0040806d6eb Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1977146885==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1977146885== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1090_21895100.1197387929872" ------=_Part_1090_21895100.1197387929872 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Peter that it'd be better to remove extlang. However, I think we can also live with option #2: leave the extlang in the ABNF, but in normative text make it absolutely clear that that part of the ABNF is OBSOLETE; no valid tag will ever have extlangs. That makes the people who want stability of the ABNF (no matter how that relates to valid tags) happy, while allowing the rest of us to remove extlang from our code and APIs. Mark On Dec 10, 2007 11:48 PM, Martin Duerst wrote: > At 01:16 07/12/07, Peter Constable wrote: > >Content-Language: en-US > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > >> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:dewell@roadrunner.com] > > > >> >> That's my whole point - the danger that specs writers might look at > >> >> the dropped extlang and say "they are dropping features between > >> >> versions of BCP 47, so we better refer to an RFC *only* and even > >> >> leave 'or its successor' out". > >> > > >> > But this is a key: we are *not* dropping any features. We are > >> dropping > >> > the possibility of a future feature. The change to the ABNF (whether > >> > by removing the extlang subtag entirely or by renaming and/or > >> > comments) is to clean it up so that implementers do not implement for > >> > non-and-never-to-be-features. > >> > >> I think what Felix meant was not that we are dropping features, but > >> that > >> it may appear to the outside observer that we are dropping features. > > > >I understood that. But I think it's significant that we are *not* > removing > >any features, and it seems to me that could be explained easily enough. > > [chairs hat OFF] > > It looks like this could be explained easily enough, but I'm quite > sure that this won't be the case. XML, and XML Schema, are very > strictly defined languages. Fortunately, we managed to get XML > away from including a grammar for language tags in an early erratum/ > corrigendum. But if XML Schema has indeed used RFC 4646 for defining > the syntactic range of language tags, then we should not remove > some productions. It is clear to us as well as to them that there > cannot be any valid language tags of the form ab-cde-fgh. But > these tags, in RFC 4646 and therefore in XML Schema version foo, > are well-formed. If they change to be non-wellformed in a new > version of XML Schema, that essentially means that there are > potentially some documents that conform to a schema in one > version of XML Schema, but not in a newer one. Even if these > language tags have not been valid, and don't make sense, that's > a very bad idea. As an extreme example, such a tag may by accident > be part of a document used for managing a nuclear plant. With > a software update, the document could suddently become non-conforming, > triggering some error. > > Peter, I recommend that you talk to some XML Schema folks inside > Microsoft to understand some of their thinking. I'm sure Felix > can provide some points of reference if needed. > > As for implementation effort, I agree that leaving the extlang > production in increases implementation effort. But quite a bit > of it can be saved by knowing that these aren't really used anymore > (i.e. implementations only have to do the parsing for them, > they don't have to provide any additional functionality). > Also, we already have a long list of tests and some regular > expressions out there which cover extlangs, which both can help > implementers. > > Regards, Martin. > > >The only real stability concern is that some existing parsers would > >recognize certain hypothetical tags they might encounter as being well > >formed when in fact they are not well formed. What possible malicious > >effect could this have? Is this a tag in a query statement? It very > likely > >won't match any content. Is this a tag attributed to content? There > likely > >won't be any requests for it. Only in some closed system in which > somebody > >decided to use proprietary extlang subtags are both going to exist by > >design. If the parser is encountering a tag somehow constructed such that > >it has a not-by-design extlang, it won't be catching an condition that > >could be considered an error, but the error will still be reflected in a > >failure to match anything, and the essential fix must be in the process > >*constructing* that tag rather than in the parser. > > > > > >Peter > >_______________________________________________ > >Ltru mailing list > >Ltru@ietf.org > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_1090_21895100.1197387929872 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Peter that it'd be better to remove extlang. However, I think we can also live with option #2: leave the extlang in the ABNF, but in normative text make it absolutely clear that that part of the ABNF is OBSOLETE; no valid tag will ever have extlangs. That makes the people who want stability of the ABNF (no matter how that relates to valid tags) happy, while allowing the rest of us to remove extlang from our code and APIs.

Mark

On Dec 10, 2007 11:48 PM, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
At 01:16 07/12/07, Peter Constable wrote:
>Content-Language: en-US
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>> From: Doug Ewell [mailto: dewell@roadrunner.com]
>
>> >> That's my whole point - the danger that specs writers might look at
>> >> the dropped extlang and say "they are dropping features between
>> >> versions of  BCP 47, so we better refer to an RFC *only* and even
>> >> leave 'or its successor' out".
>> >
>> > But this is a key: we are *not* dropping any features. We are
>> dropping
>> > the possibility of a future feature. The change to the ABNF (whether
>> > by removing the extlang subtag entirely or by renaming and/or
>> > comments) is to clean it up so that implementers do not implement for
>> > non-and-never-to-be-features.
>>
>> I think what Felix meant was not that we are dropping features, but
>> that
>> it may appear to the outside observer that we are dropping features.
>
>I understood that. But I think it's significant that we are *not* removing
>any features, and it seems to me that could be explained easily enough.

[chairs hat OFF]

It looks like this could be explained easily enough, but I'm quite
sure that this won't be the case. XML, and XML Schema, are very
strictly defined languages. Fortunately, we managed to get XML
away from including a grammar for language tags in an early erratum/
corrigendum. But if XML Schema has indeed used RFC 4646 for defining
the syntactic range of language tags, then we should not remove
some productions. It is clear to us as well as to them that there
cannot be any valid language tags of the form ab-cde-fgh. But
these tags, in RFC 4646 and therefore in XML Schema version foo,
are well-formed. If they change to be non-wellformed in a new
version of XML Schema, that essentially means that there are
potentially some documents that conform to a schema in one
version of XML Schema, but not in a newer one. Even if these
language tags have not been valid, and don't make sense, that's
a very bad idea. As an extreme example, such a tag may by accident
be part of a document used for managing a nuclear plant. With
a software update, the document could suddently become non-conforming,
triggering some error.

Peter, I recommend that you talk to some XML Schema folks inside
Microsoft to understand some of their thinking. I'm sure Felix
can provide some points of reference if needed.

As for implementation effort, I agree that leaving the extlang
production in increases implementation effort. But quite a bit
of it can be saved by knowing that these aren't really used anymore
(i.e. implementations only have to do the parsing for them,
they don't have to provide any additional functionality).
Also, we already have a long list of tests and some regular
expressions out there which cover extlangs, which both can help
implementers.

Regards,    Martin.

>The only real stability concern is that some existing parsers would
>recognize certain hypothetical tags they might encounter as being well
>formed when in fact they are not well formed. What possible malicious
>effect could this have? Is this a tag in a query statement? It very likely
>won't match any content. Is this a tag attributed to content? There likely
>won't be any requests for it. Only in some closed system in which somebody
>decided to use proprietary extlang subtags are both going to exist by
>design. If the parser is encountering a tag somehow constructed such that
>it has a not-by-design extlang, it won't be catching an condition that
>could be considered an error, but the error will still be reflected in a
>failure to match anything, and the essential fix must be in the process
>*constructing* that tag rather than in the parser.
>
>
>Peter
>_______________________________________________
>Ltru mailing list
>Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#   http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp



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--
Mark ------=_Part_1090_21895100.1197387929872-- --===============1977146885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1977146885==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 10:46:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27JL-0006tK-Gu; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:46:19 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J27JK-0006tE-9n for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:46:18 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27JJ-0006t1-Vu for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:46:17 -0500 Received: from el-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.162.179]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27JH-0002yj-6Y for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:46:17 -0500 Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j27so382225elf for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:46:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=ThrHLgfxukgL5GEuMQEo4HnaxvcxWAnvsXjGKTGNNxw=; b=poKpQBdG/cq9Ou78o4NgQRqA6qFKZKGjtcAeDvcFGHhU1uuMP7Nw+Ve2ILMvN5vx9J8sI9/6t/MZopwU6Kcb/lV+zgl9KXiPjcv6ha5G0mybeb3tq/k5efkV7IvRZrBz23Mm8WdPtMyrGTBvzMxjuK6pEpnhDH4QLOaizRz7aoU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=cOyJ4kof5JjO2BAmBnDvOZPFNRQZ2rRB9C/1X3ZgfVGBbcqqDHLy/7DnWrpOrQSHbVWZZMk1VNehhoOs8mnahbf1kgL3AYTBO2n9SjZbmWVcpwqmEJePXKVvPuUqx/F9//SZ2kpF2drn3Dc6iJb1FJmA3Ex5GyZ1M4H1ZRiN+oY= Received: by 10.142.158.17 with SMTP id g17mr1119136wfe.1197387973409; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.128.8 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:46:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712110746s2fc5d2c7y5782ffd0daaaf023@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:46:13 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B In-Reply-To: <20071211151721.GA18393@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071209055751.GH22311@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211185919.098e79c0@localhost> <20071211151721.GA18393@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b0ae46d35f267b96 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1877783148==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1877783148== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1102_6106999.1197387973408" ------=_Part_1102_6106999.1197387973408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1 On Dec 11, 2007 7:17 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Martin Duerst scripsit: > > > I concur with Frank that MUSTard in the IANA section > > serves no purpose. > > We have plenty of MUSTard in the LSR section, and in sections > describing the desired actions of people who submit forms for review. > Registration is a very complicated protocol with lots of human parts > as well as computers, and the human parts are the more important parts. > IANA is just one of those, neither better nor worse than the rest. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Charles li reis, nostre emperesdre magnes, > Set anz totz pleinz ad ested in Espagnes. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_1102_6106999.1197387973408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1

On Dec 11, 2007 7:17 AM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Martin Duerst scripsit:

> I concur with Frank that MUSTard in the IANA section
> serves no purpose.

We have plenty of MUSTard in the LSR section, and in sections
describing the desired actions of people who submit forms for review.
Registration is a very complicated protocol with lots of human parts
as well as computers, and the human parts are the more important parts.
IANA is just one of those, neither better nor worse than the rest.

--
John Cowan      <cowan@ccil.org>       http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
               Charles li reis, nostre emperesdre magnes,
               Set anz totz pleinz ad ested in Espagnes.


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--
Mark ------=_Part_1102_6106999.1197387973408-- --===============1877783148== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1877783148==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 10:49:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27Mi-0000qa-2n; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:49:48 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J27Mh-0000qP-3C for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:49:47 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27Mg-0000qH-Pf for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:49:46 -0500 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.238]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27Mg-000343-7m for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:49:46 -0500 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so1668330wra for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:49:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=LIMWeuV+FokANqLQIoIroPBjx51rYexjFclh8xzGLiU=; b=mGwkQFDSrt9XgrItqh8I5VsJZPuBZVBo6O06cwi36ECkUxBuuUEnuyOIvj7096QBcMtBoDAgAq+YcNlwIrog/ojxiCXzxuoMi++mWNzSxsUiDfze4R5evkkxr0MMwXMQgZtpKDdapMCUSudy2IguURUudouenzj6r5gZUM+9xxo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=BqqI4nWiK0treFvk0Q/HHtuoO9UBtjdSRRvNmMZ5udM/iXmqCCDFfkTl7Wxq3+nCMVQ68ETPIt02XQnIVC2Qt5Em/+mCQG4odIdnBHVux7sp6T7SB6OHHd6kFdNeh8kWmxXyBaA+tEQefp/TZWGZdR18QKWPmXx3y/H1NBlIu5Y= Received: by 10.142.237.20 with SMTP id k20mr2378117wfh.1197388184477; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.128.8 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:49:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:49:44 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr> X-Google-Sender-Auth: dc8973f71055278b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1331491960==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1331491960== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1133_16371954.1197388184477" ------=_Part_1133_16371954.1197388184477 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It might be worth putting that text (wordsmithed a bit) into 4646bis: One purpose of the registration process is to exclude idiosyncratic subtags: those that do not have any usage beyond a handful of individuals for a brief period of time. On Dec 11, 2007 7:10 AM, Peter Constable wrote: > > From: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages- > > bounces@alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer > > > > To put things into perspective, what problem do we try to solve by > > limiting registrations to variants that have a sizable user base, > > "well-enough attested"? > > [snip] > > > I candidly ask this because RFC 4646 never mentions the criteria of > > "well-enough attested use". It just says "This requirement is not > > intended to exclude particular languages or dialects due to the size > > of the speaker population or lack of a standardized orthography. > > Minority languages will be considered equally on their own merits." > > I don't think the request for established usage is in contradiction with > what the RFC says, and I don't think it needs to be explicitly stated to be > an operational principle here. I think what problem is being solved -- or, > rather, what problem is being avoided -- is to prevent registration of > subtags that will need to be widely supported indefinitely but which never > had any potential value beyond a handful of individuals for a brief period > of time. > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > -- Mark ------=_Part_1133_16371954.1197388184477 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It might be worth putting that text (wordsmithed a bit) into 4646bis:

One purpose of the registration process is to exclude idiosyncratic subtags: those that do not have any usage beyond a handful of individuals for a brief period of time.

On Dec 11, 2007 7:10 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
> From: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-
> bounces@alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer


> To put things into perspective, what problem do we try to solve by
> limiting registrations to variants that have a sizable user base,
> "well-enough attested"?

[snip]

> I candidly ask this because RFC 4646 never mentions the criteria of
> "well-enough attested use". It just says "This requirement is not
> intended to exclude particular languages or dialects due to the size
> of the speaker population or lack of a standardized orthography.
> Minority languages will be considered equally on their own merits."

I don't think the request for established usage is in contradiction with what the RFC says, and I don't think it needs to be explicitly stated to be an operational principle here. I think what problem is being solved -- or, rather, what problem is being avoided -- is to prevent registration of subtags that will need to be widely supported indefinitely but which never had any potential value beyond a handful of individuals for a brief period of time.


Peter
_______________________________________________
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--
Mark ------=_Part_1133_16371954.1197388184477-- --===============1331491960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1331491960==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 11:02:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27ZM-00052m-Mq; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:02:52 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J27ZL-00052h-6y for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:02:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27ZK-00052Z-TT for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:02:50 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27ZK-0003J6-FY for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:02:50 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.14] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c14.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.14]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lBBG2VGL096679; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:02:31 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Pbg9ESWOWK4Twz2m1TZ7Ua+zJDs2mKEUW+cj1kUhlZOxHmFfKuOY8WOUmHdT1ZJM Message-ID: <475EB495.50004@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:02:29 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] What is EU for in locales? References: <20071211064403.GH25311@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071211064403.GH25311@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > Before the extraordinarily reserved 3166 code elements get baked > into BCP 47 forever, I'd like to know what EU is supposed to be for. > I'm not necessarily rejecting the notion that EU (or currently QU) is > sensible in locale tags, which though not formally language tags are > closely related. But just what does EU/QU mean in locale tags? > I believe the answer there is: it's a code for a region, whose display name and other info you can retrieve. There is no "xx-EU" locale in CLDR (or anywhere else that I'm aware of). There may be some variations in options that are based on regulatory or other requirements at the EU level (I'm not aware of any of those either). I think the main thing is not that EU is used in locale identifiers. It is that BCP 47 provides a stabilized collection of regions, which is useful in maintaining locale data. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 11:08:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27f1-00010R-9W; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:08:43 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J27f0-0000yV-1H for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:08:42 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27ez-0000ul-Ki for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:08:41 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27ez-0000tj-7a for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:08:41 -0500 Received: from [10.72.76.14] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c14.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.14]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lBBG8QZn097001; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:08:26 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=225EwCK9sLkpMKycTDdoU1XRbssj8oQmEUEtC/mdaptiQuSC97r+8KIOW7R0JhAN Message-ID: <475EB5F9.6040809@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:08:25 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer References: <475638DC.7070702@yahoo-inc.com> <20071211133342.GA23524@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20071211133342.GA23524@nic.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10: submission X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 09:36:28PM -0800, > Addison Phillips wrote > a message of 3092 lines which said: > >> Please find attached draft-10 of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis in the usual >> text format. > > It was apparently not properly sent because it is not in the I-D > database (which is a big problem since there are already a lot of > reviews). Did you use the new "real-time" tool at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/upload.cgi? > No, I didn't use the real-time tool. I wasn't aware of it then (Martin and Randy pointed it out to me after that post). It takes the editors some time to post the document manually. When they've done so, I will use the tool to post draft-11. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 11:16:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27m8-0008Lx-Sy; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:16:04 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J27m8-0008Ls-66 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:16:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27m7-0008Lk-Sf for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:16:03 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27m7-0003Yl-Fc for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:16:03 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FC391C00FA; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:16:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7331C00E3; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:16:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B9D58ECCD; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:16:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:16:03 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Martin Duerst Message-ID: <20071211161603.GA12435@nic.fr> References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071209055751.GH22311@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211185919.098e79c0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071211185919.098e79c0@localhost> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 07:00:04PM +0900, Martin Duerst wrote a message of 28 lines which said: > I concur with Frank that MUSTard in the IANA section serves no > purpose. The purpose is to be sure that a *minimum* set of services is provided. This is based on practical experience with IANA (such as the archiving-of-forms issue). The IANA, through David Conrad, made very clear that they already have a lot of work and were not eager to maintain things where they were not explicitely asked to do so. When queried about UTF-8 in the registry, for intance, IANA said basically "what you want, but please write it down clearly". [This mandate also helps IANA when they report to their higher management layers.] We defer to IANA to provide more services (such as the fact that their Web server honors If-Modified-Since, which is very convenient when you want to access the registry periodically, although it is not and probably should no be mandated by the RFC), if they can/want. And we rely on common sense and good engineering practices for things such as backups :-) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 11:17:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27n5-0000bo-7s; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:17:03 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J27n4-0000WZ-Cr for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:17:02 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27n4-0000WQ-2S for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:17:02 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27n3-00017V-P7 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:17:01 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 4DDFD1C00FA; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:17:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486BE1C00E3; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:17:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C59458EBE5; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:17:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:17:01 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Addison Phillips Message-ID: <20071211161701.GA12784@nic.fr> References: <475638DC.7070702@yahoo-inc.com> <20071211133342.GA23524@nic.fr> <475EB5F9.6040809@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <475EB5F9.6040809@yahoo-inc.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10: submission X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 08:08:25AM -0800, Addison Phillips wrote a message of 28 lines which said: > It takes the editors some time to post the document manually. More than one week, now, which is, indeed, "some time" :-} _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 11:17:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27nx-00013C-NU; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:17:57 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J27nw-000137-JX for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:17:56 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27nw-00012x-9A for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:17:56 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27nv-0001Ae-VO for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:17:56 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 822251C012B; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:17:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA351C0127; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:17:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E79358EBE5; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:17:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:17:55 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr> References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr> <30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 07:49:44AM -0800, Mark Davis wrote a message of 86 lines which said: > One purpose of the registration process is to exclude idiosyncratic > subtags: those that do not have any usage beyond a handful of > individuals for a brief period of time. Why? What does it buy us? Or which disease it protects us against? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 11:24:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27uP-0002cI-Rx; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:24:37 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J27uN-0002Vk-It for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:24:35 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27uN-0002Vc-96 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:24:35 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.231]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27uM-0003mJ-6Y for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:24:35 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id n1so871161nzf for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:24:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=2/N3H4re6q9ten1rlxPte2mxE39uhfysV/gNq3NY868=; b=OuX8ukMgNYovooh8pGwJmGUBWeH8qM8JcLfeqLyAjehYG/lYbivpVNApQc3obd5EqBruuXBznwECJUFejPPSS5WjDnwjtU3FsUTHyp6y7J1vddmUOjoduIR5Zpf7o8gfNS7Ew6KJ2ejNNnMEOC3NV2ANaAT0X9nsRz5dsjyRJFM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Pw5dNvy+boamZX6TU89/Rs6rscXXLYKlVlh3MU0ZhVjwUXXuz9QqgYBaNQCpVYaZ43sNMMATHZS2vI/yGdgdJ5RQuqHYAZdCyAC02RPsMicBZyFrDIdUiUHi8B9tKiZMz0a2T1fja261OGYTTLpG7TedcfbAEuDBukK2hBa6tvg= Received: by 10.142.245.10 with SMTP id s10mr957024wfh.1197390273022; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.128.8 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:24:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712110824w7f32d24cp89bdd305b8641cf7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:24:32 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" In-Reply-To: <20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr> <30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com> <20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 94387d0a25729ae5 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0626369206==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0626369206== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1396_31171054.1197390272920" ------=_Part_1396_31171054.1197390272920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In general, the more guidance we can provide reviewers, the more defensible their actions become. We don't want to process to have the appearance of being subject to favoritism, so where it does make sense to provide better wording on what kinds of things are intended for registration and what not, the better off we are. Mark On Dec 11, 2007 8:17 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 07:49:44AM -0800, > Mark Davis wrote > a message of 86 lines which said: > > > One purpose of the registration process is to exclude idiosyncratic > > subtags: those that do not have any usage beyond a handful of > > individuals for a brief period of time. > > Why? What does it buy us? Or which disease it protects us against? > -- Mark ------=_Part_1396_31171054.1197390272920 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In general, the more guidance we can provide reviewers, the more defensible their actions become. We don't want to process to have the appearance of being subject to favoritism, so where it does make sense to provide better wording on what kinds of things are intended for registration and what not, the better off we are.

Mark

On Dec 11, 2007 8:17 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote:
On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 07:49:44AM -0800,
 Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote
 a message of 86 lines which said:

> One purpose of the registration process is to exclude idiosyncratic
> subtags: those that do not have any usage beyond a handful of
> individuals for a brief period of time.

Why? What does it buy us? Or which disease it protects us against?



--
Mark ------=_Part_1396_31171054.1197390272920-- --===============0626369206== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0626369206==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 11:28:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27xj-0003pR-Vx; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:28:03 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J27xi-0003pG-Kq for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:28:02 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27xi-0003p8-Az for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:28:02 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J27xg-0003sq-8b for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:28:02 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id D79421C0125; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:27:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18E41C00FA; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:27:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB5D58EBE5; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:27:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:27:59 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20071211162759.GA14556@nic.fr> References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr> <30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com> <20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr> <30b660a20712110824w7f32d24cp89bdd305b8641cf7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712110824w7f32d24cp89bdd305b8641cf7@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 08:24:32AM -0800, Mark Davis wrote a message of 43 lines which said: > In general, the more guidance we can provide reviewers, the more > defensible their actions become. We should ask the current Language Subtag Reviewer but I was under the impression that he does not want to have too much micro-management of its actions? > where it does make sense to provide better wording on what kinds of > things are intended for registration and what not, the better off we > are. I agree with the general goal (being precise and transparent) but I dispute the fact that "vanity subtags" are a serious problem, worth of an addition to the RFC. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 12:36:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2922-0000iL-HY; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:36:34 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2921-0000iD-8g for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:36:33 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2920-0000i5-VD for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:36:32 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J291z-0005ZI-9O for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:36:32 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J28mC-0008Kf-NP for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:20:12 +0000 Received: from c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.89]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:20:12 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:20:12 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:03:07 +0100 Organization: Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr><30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com><20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr><30b660a20712110824w7f32d24cp89bdd305b8641cf7@mail.gmail.com> <20071211162759.GA14556@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Vanity tags (was: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF)) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > I agree with the general goal (being precise and transparent) > but I dispute the fact that "vanity subtags" are a serious > problem, worth of an addition to the RFC. Serious enough for the reviewer to mention it in conjunction with the "ortograf" proposal. He didn't ask for an addition of a rule to the RFC, but he dislikes "vanity tags". For some months in spring 2006 I watched the "Sealand" and the "list of micronations" articles in en.wikipedia, and it was a tough job for several editors to keep these two articles free of nonsense for a single day. And microlanguages weren't much better. Let alone all those "alternative roots" such as the "Cesidian root" of an "Indigo child", president (or whatever) of a micronation. Won't surprise me if they'd also claim to have their own language. Certainly able to write a set of Wikipedia articles linking to each other. :-( Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 12:39:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J294v-0001fU-A5; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:39:33 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J294u-0001fO-2e for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:39:32 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J294t-0001fG-OZ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:39:31 -0500 Received: from bortzmeyer.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J294t-00038J-F4 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:39:31 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id F0D6C24080E; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:39:16 +0100 (CET) Received: by horcrux (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0AF9C157672; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:59:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:59:39 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20071211165939.GA13871@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 7.10 (gutsy) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.15+20070412 (2007-04-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-4645bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, Dec 09, 2007 at 11:47:25PM -0800, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 26 lines which said: > Editor's copies of draft-4645bis-03 have been posted to my site: I made various automatic tests on the proposed registry and found no problem. You apparently did not use the possibility of using UTF-8 in the Description fields? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 12:42:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2987-0003SF-U4; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:42:51 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2987-0003S9-Gy for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:42:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2987-0003S0-78 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:42:51 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2984-0005hJ-H3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:42:50 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J28xH-0003eu-0h for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:31:39 +0000 Received: from c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.89]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:31:39 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:31:39 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:16:36 +0100 Organization: Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org><20071209055751.GH22311@mercury.ccil.org><6.0.0.20.2.20071211185919.098e79c0@localhost> <20071211161603.GA12435@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > "what you want, but please write it down clearly". Yes, but MUSTard isn't an essential ingredience of clarity in IANA considerations. s/MUST/is asked to/ or similar is also clear, an uppercase MUST sounds like "requested and required". They're no servants just because they offer a service. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 12:54:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J29JN-0008F9-0R; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:54:29 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J29JL-0008F4-U3 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:54:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J29JL-0008Ev-K3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:54:27 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J29JJ-0005za-D9 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:54:27 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J29Be-0000KE-UN for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:46:30 +0000 Received: from c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.89]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:46:30 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:46:30 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:37:52 +0100 Organization: Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > As an extreme example, such a tag may by accident be > part of a document used for managing a nuclear plant. Something's wrong with this installation if it depends on the syntactical well-formedness of . And you could use the same example with a "malicious" , when it survives a syntax check still allowing non-existent s as "well formed". > With a software update, the document could suddently > become non-conforming, triggering some error. It might as well trigger an error in lazy 4646bis code not prepared to support any because they don't exist. 4646bis code with the new minimal "most perverse tag" buffer size might correctly identify the non-existing well-formed construct as too long, and follow a code path not tested for the nuclear plant - this example isn't compelling, it cuts on both sides. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 14:34:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Aro-0002K4-Au; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:34:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Arn-0002Jv-9t for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:34:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Arn-0002Jn-0C for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:34:07 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Arm-0008Gv-EY for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:34:06 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lBBJXTB1083796; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:33:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QxfoPHsCyzBV1Ypsxq8RL7zWF/rrGPrK8dTQ3W7ISt5+RZ3aXNF5VJtEZCxOXEUP Message-ID: <475EE609.8070004@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:33:29 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr> <30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com> <20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr> <30b660a20712110824w7f32d24cp89bdd305b8641cf7@mail.gmail.com> <20071211162759.GA14556@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20071211162759.GA14556@nic.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 08:24:32AM -0800, > Mark Davis wrote > a message of 43 lines which said: > >> In general, the more guidance we can provide reviewers, the more >> defensible their actions become. > > We should ask the current Language Subtag Reviewer but I was under the > impression that he does not want to have too much micro-management of > its actions? > It isn't just the LSR's actions that need defense. We need to provide clarity to registrants and set their expectations. Ultimately, the IESG may be appealed to and they need guidance that non-linguistic experts can understand about what is valid or not for registration. Frankly, the current LSR should have rejected in a clear and unambiguous manner the request from the outset, citing the specific problems in RFC 4646 (it's not a well-formed request). >> where it does make sense to provide better wording on what kinds of >> things are intended for registration and what not, the better off we >> are. > > I agree with the general goal (being precise and transparent) but I > dispute the fact that "vanity subtags" are a serious problem, worth of > an addition to the RFC. +1 to both of you. I think that obvious vanity requests would not be tolerated by the list. But idiosyncratic registrations ought not be ruled out. "Idiosyncratic" is in the eye of the beholder. Even small linguistic communities may find valid uses for a variant. What we need to provide is guidance on when to register a variant versus when to use a private use subtag. The more clarity we provide, the better this will be. That, I believe, is what Mark is trying to accomplish. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 15:16:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2BWO-0006Xa-7O; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:16:04 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2BWM-0006XU-Rz for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:16:02 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2BWM-0006XL-Gm for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:16:02 -0500 Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net ([80.76.149.213]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2BWM-0007Z0-3t for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:16:02 -0500 Received: from c83-248-81-97.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.81.97]:3401 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J2BWI-0001lN-7u; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:15:59 +0100 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , "'John Cowan'" References: <20071211064403.GH25311@mercury.ccil.org> <475EB495.50004@yahoo-inc.com> Subject: RE: [Ltru] What is EU for in locales? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:15:38 +0100 Message-ID: <010d01c83c32$a4a4e340$5956f853@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <475EB495.50004@yahoo-inc.com> Thread-Index: Acg8D0uQSExG8Z1VQNaIsCmS92fnaQAGAGdg X-Originating-IP: 83.248.81.97 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1J2BWI-0001lN-7u. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1J2BWI-0001lN-7u a9a57dd17d1efdf194502270b483c08b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > is that BCP 47 provides a stabilized collection of regions, which is > useful in maintaining locale data. While that (particular quoted substatement) is true, I would also say that: sv_EU (rather than sv_150) could designate a locale using Swedish, but has EOR ordering, and perhaps some "EU" common date a time formats. Similarly for da_EU, etc. (At least, I would suggest that as a possible goal. I'm NOT saying that it currently IS the goal for anyone.) I don't think such locales will be overly popular, but they may have some uses. I think that it was one of the reasons for developing the EOR (European Ordering Rules), though they are not entirely EU specific. /kent k http://anubis.dkuug.dk/CEN/TC304/EOR/eorhome.html _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 16:29:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Cfa-0007k5-ON; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:29:38 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2CfZ-0007i6-Bk for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:29:37 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2CfZ-0007hy-1R for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:29:37 -0500 Received: from mail00.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.16]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2CfY-0000zm-Ih for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:29:36 -0500 Received: (qmail 71079 messnum 6392286 invoked from network[194.125.174.42/ts09-042.dublin.indigo.ie]); 11 Dec 2007 21:29:34 -0000 Received: from ts09-042.dublin.indigo.ie (HELO ?194.125.174.42?) (194.125.174.42) by mail00.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 71079) with SMTP; 11 Dec 2007 21:29:34 -0000 In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com> References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr> <30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0999EC14-72F8-479C-8167-E252CABDD909@egt.ie> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marion Gunn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:31:00 +0000 To: LTRU Working Group X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.728) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Suggest simplifying that somewhat, thus: "One purpose of the =20 registration process is to exclude idiosyncratic and ephemeral subtags." mg On 11 Dec 2007, at 15:49, scr=EDobh Mark Davis: > It might be worth putting that text (wordsmithed a bit) into 4646bis: > > One purpose of the registration process is to exclude idiosyncratic =20= > subtags: those that do not have any usage beyond a handful of =20 > individuals for a brief period of time. - - Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 17:48:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2DuB-0005Lx-Oo; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:48:47 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2DuA-0005Ls-Eg for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:48:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2DuA-0005Lj-4l for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:48:46 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Du8-0004bp-GW for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:48:46 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Dtv-0006pz-8S for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:48:31 +0000 Received: from c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.89]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:48:31 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:48:31 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:47:46 +0100 Organization: Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071211165939.GA13871@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-4645bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: =20 > You apparently did not use the possibility of > using UTF-8 in the Description fields? Internet Drafts need to be US-ASCII. Just pipe it through 4645bis.awk to get the UTF-8 version: Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 18:40:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Ehp-0002DT-62; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:40:05 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Ehn-0002DC-Bx for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:40:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Ehn-0002D2-2F for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:40:03 -0500 Received: from relay-1.mailobj.net ([195.234.90.136]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Ehj-0005yB-FL for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:40:03 -0500 Received: from netcourrier.com (webmail-2.in.mailobj.net [192.168.90.139]) by relay-1.mailobj.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 90EBF478D4 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:39:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from [89.2.186.89] by webmail-2.netcourrier.com via html interface From: Nicolas Krebs To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Swiss German and Alsatian Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:39:58 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 5 X-Mailer: Medianet/v2.0 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote > It's not clear to me what it is you want. It shoud be an advice for http://www.langtag.net/register-new-subtag.html = =2E If you don't understand, it means i was not clear enought. = _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 18:59:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2F0G-0002Xv-SE; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:59:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2F0G-0002Xp-4r for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:59:08 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2F0F-0002Xh-Pv for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:59:07 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2F0F-0004zg-2r for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:59:07 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530742BC25; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:59:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HIAqPsOWkb+g; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:59:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p6e3ef9.w032bw01.ap.so-net.ne.jp [218.110.62.249]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1683A2BC24; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:59:02 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <475F2439.6020007@w3.org> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:58:49 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > If XML Schema 1.1 is still a work in progress, and assuming 4646bis wraps up quickly (which I hope will be the case), why would it not be possible (and, indeed, why would it not be welcomed) to suggest that XML Schema 1.1 use ABNF from 4646bis that differs from 4646 by removing a never-to-be-used construct and hence is simpler? > As I said before, the I18N core Working Group within W3C proposed to the XML Schema Working Group to refer to the ABNF from RFC 4646. I had a call with someone from the XML Schema working group this morning, and it seems they are various opinions in the XML Schema Working Group about how to refer to language tag specs: 1) refer to a specific spec, e.g. RFC 3066 (this is what is currently at http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#language , i.e. a reference to RFC 3066) 2) make no type constraint, just refer to the (ISO) language codes 3) say that a validator needs to check current version of language code spec if it wants to do the right thing (where "needs" doesn't have any normative power), and providing the necessary reference for that. The current tendency within the XML Schema Working Group is that they might go for 3) and replace the reference to 3066 with a reference to BCP 47. However, the pattern for validation of the language data type will probably not be changed, it will stay as RFC 3066 like [a-zA-Z]{1,8}(-[a-zA-Z0-9]{1,8})* So for this thread I think this mainly means good news (an "old" reference to the RFC 4646 ABNF in XML Schema is not a problem anymore, since they will not have it anyway ) and some bad news (there will be the old RFC 3066 ABNF also in XML Schema 1.1). I think the later news should not prevent people from in LTRU moving forward. Felix| | _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 20:43:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2GdD-0006uR-DU; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:43:27 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2GdC-0006uL-Bi for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:43:26 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2GdC-0006uD-1P for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:43:26 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Gd9-0007lR-VS for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:43:24 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lBC1hKwZ009504 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:43:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 0800_9e2734c2_a853_11dc_8e6a_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:43:19 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:54238) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:39:19 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071212103456.0991bce0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:35:26 +0900 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Addison Phillips From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10: submission In-Reply-To: <20071211161701.GA12784@nic.fr> References: <475638DC.7070702@yahoo-inc.com> <20071211133342.GA23524@nic.fr> <475EB5F9.6040809@yahoo-inc.com> <20071211161701.GA12784@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison, can you please send the Internet-Drafts editor a reminder? Thanks, Martin. At 01:17 07/12/12, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 08:08:25AM -0800, > Addison Phillips wrote > a message of 28 lines which said: > >> It takes the editors some time to post the document manually. > >More than one week, now, which is, indeed, "some time" :-} > > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 20:43:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2GdG-0006vu-GW; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:43:30 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2GdE-0006vY-NK for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:43:28 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2GdE-0006v6-CR for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:43:28 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2GdC-0000cD-7p for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:43:28 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lBC1hMgN009512 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:43:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 734c_9f318660_a853_11dc_9241_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:43:22 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:54238) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:39:20 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071212103829.0991a430@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:42:39 +0900 To: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B In-Reply-To: References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071209055751.GH22311@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211185919.098e79c0@localhost> <20071211161603.GA12435@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org It has been well known in the IETF that the IANA favors clear instructions that don't require any judgement. But as Frank explains below, clear instructions can be given without MUSTard, and that's the way it has been done for IANA until now. IANA will follow these instructions carefully even without MUSTs. Of course they will occasionally make a mistake, because they are humans. Who doesn't. But the addition of MUSTs doesn't change that at all. Regards, Martin. At 02:16 07/12/12, Frank Ellermann wrote: >Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > >> "what you want, but please write it down clearly". > >Yes, but MUSTard isn't an essential ingredience of >clarity in IANA considerations. s/MUST/is asked to/ >or similar is also clear, an uppercase MUST sounds >like "requested and required". They're no servants >just because they offer a service. > > Frank > > > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 21:38:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2HUr-0005wy-05; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:38:53 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2HUq-0005ws-5o for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:38:52 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2HUp-0005wk-SK for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:38:51 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2HUp-0001nU-Fg for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:38:51 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J2HUk-0005Il-IX; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:38:46 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:38:46 -0500 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B Message-ID: <20071212023846.GA19409@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071209055751.GH22311@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211185919.098e79c0@localhost> <20071211161603.GA12435@nic.fr> <6.0.0.20.2.20071212103829.0991a430@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071212103829.0991a430@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst scripsit: > It has been well known in the IETF that the IANA favors clear > instructions that don't require any judgement. But as Frank > explains below, clear instructions can be given without > MUSTard, and that's the way it has been done for IANA > until now. IANA will follow these instructions carefully > even without MUSTs. Of course they will occasionally make > a mistake, because they are humans. Who doesn't. But the > addition of MUSTs doesn't change that at all. Currently they are in. If you want them out, propose text. -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Economists were put on this planet to make astrologers look good. --Leo McGarry _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 22:04:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Htj-0001h7-Rp; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:04:35 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Hti-0001h2-Rf for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:04:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Hti-0001gt-Hx for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:04:34 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Hti-0002Po-AC for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:04:34 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.114) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:04:33 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.114]) with mapi; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:04:33 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:04:28 -0800 Thread-Topic: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) Thread-Index: Acg8EWSg698OcNmQSA2zKdelMbNWrQAWhilg Message-ID: References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr> <30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com> <20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Subject: [Ltru] RE: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] > > One purpose of the registration process is to exclude idiosyncratic > > subtags: those that do not have any usage beyond a handful of > > individuals for a brief period of time. > > Why? What does it buy us? Or which disease it protects us against? It protects lots of implementers from having to support subtags that don't = really get used. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 23:15:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2J0J-0003FJ-4j; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:15:27 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2J0I-0003FE-0P for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:15:26 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2J0H-0003F6-Mu for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:15:25 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2J0G-0003jp-0N for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:15:25 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071212041523.PRN15266.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:15:23 -0500 Message-ID: <006a01c83c75$9daeadd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:15:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Subject: [Ltru] Re: What is EU for in locales? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: >> I'd like to know what EU is supposed to be for. > > I believe the answer there is: it's a code for a region, whose display > name and other info you can retrieve. There is no "xx-EU" locale in > CLDR (or anywhere else that I'm aware of). But, but... this whole business got started a month ago when it was noted that CLDR used 'QU' for European Union, and Mark Davis expressed a desire to use 'EU' instead and also to use BCP 47 as the source for locale identifiers: Martin Dürst: "We clearly don't want to reopen every single discussion that we had leading to RFC 4646, but if necessary, we can reconsider some of thae decisions for RFC 4646bis. As an example, would it make sense for the LTRU WG to ask for permission from the ISO 3166-1/MA?" Mark Davis: "I'd be very much in favor of it -- CLDR only adds a very small number of codes to BCP 47 (it uses private use codes for compatibility). The QU code is a hack because we don't have EU, so it'd be very nice to get rid of that. (BTW, we don't really have to petition ISO to use it; if we want to use EU, there is nothing stopping us.)" So while there may be no "xx-EU" locale in CLDR, there was clearly a motivation to get 'EU' into the Language Subtag Registry so that CLDR could use it instead of 'QU' for *something*. > I think the main thing is not that EU is used in locale identifiers. > It is that BCP 47 provides a stabilized collection of regions, which > is useful in maintaining locale data. I liked it better when the LSR was just for language tagging. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 00:07:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2JoE-0005V2-CI; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:07:02 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2JoC-0005Ua-Qw for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:07:00 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2JoC-0005UL-EN for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:07:00 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2JoB-00053G-Ui for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:07:00 -0500 Received: from [10.72.77.67] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c67.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.67]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lBC56mG3017366; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:06:48 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=k34jBK1RRk12sGwnQYUsNi/+V/CULADG2IbBzomRBLLyD6cF40A3W3Lt9um8Pl/P Message-ID: <475F6C68.6000109@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:06:48 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10: submission References: <475638DC.7070702@yahoo-inc.com> <20071211133342.GA23524@nic.fr> <475EB5F9.6040809@yahoo-inc.com> <20071211161701.GA12784@nic.fr> <6.0.0.20.2.20071212103456.0991bce0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071212103456.0991bce0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > Addison, can you please send the Internet-Drafts editor a reminder? > Yes, I'll send them a reminder. It's never taken this long previously. I guess the tool has made them lax :-). I have half a mind to just submit the darned thing using the tool... but that would probably gum up the works. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 00:13:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Juv-0000CO-Rz; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:13:57 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Juu-0000CI-HB for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:13:56 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Juu-0000By-6Z; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:13:56 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Jus-0005Zk-Kr; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:13:56 -0500 Received: from [10.72.77.67] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c67.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.67]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lBC5Dpu8017641; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:13:51 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NPcQitwSQ+ME3CJ9zlpE7S3x0jGpZBcFZDTnfOus1D0t7XDqabSDLRGaYa88TDQg Message-ID: <475F6E0F.6020104@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:13:51 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , internet-drafts@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] query: status of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10 submission X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, As editor of the subject referenced document, I've been asked on behalf of the LTRU WG to query what the status of publishing this I-D is, please? I sent it to internet-drafts@ rather than using the new tool. Please reference: http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg09017.html Thanks and best regards, Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 01:03:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Kh3-0001yW-EA; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:03:41 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Kh2-0001yL-TM for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:03:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Kh2-0001yD-Iw for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:03:40 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Kh2-0006KE-5s for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:03:40 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071212060339.MVVJ15016.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:03:39 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c83c84$bdc47e60$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071211165939.GA13871@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:03:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-4645bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stéphane Bortzmeyer wrote: > You apparently did not use the possibility of using UTF-8 in the > Description fields? Regarding the I-D: my understanding is that non-ASCII is not allowed in I-Ds. This is why the data in the Registry uses NCRs and is accompanied by an instruction to IANA (with "MUST") to convert it to UTF-8. I'm not 100% sure about the non-ASCII restriction; someone once said that only applied to RFCs, whereas the non-ASCII part of 4645bis (like 4645 before it) will be stripped out before the draft is published as an RFC. I seem to remember trying to run UTF-8 through xml2rfc and ending up with non-validating HTML and ASCII-mutilated text, and never trying it again. In private mail, Stéphane asked me for a copy of just the proposed 4645bis Registry, without the surrounding text, and I sent him one. But at 6:50 in the morning, with normal morning family activities around me, my brain malfunctioned and I forgot to convert the file to UTF-8. That may be what he was referring to. In fact, draft-4646bis makes no provision for "optional" hex NCRs, only UTF-8. The description "Volapük" would literally be 12 characters long, including the three non-alphabetic characters. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 01:52:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2LSA-0000vk-IO; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:52:22 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2LS8-0000vf-It for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:52:20 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2LS8-0000vN-4X for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:52:20 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2LS5-0006qN-DM for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:52:18 -0500 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lBC6q9ox008118 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:52:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 0338_c2a52108_a87e_11dc_9a46_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:52:09 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:40848) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:48:03 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071212153653.0ae521d0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:50:28 +0900 To: Felix Sasaki , Peter Constable From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <475F2439.6020007@w3.org> References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> <475F2439.6020007@w3.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 08:58 07/12/12, Felix Sasaki wrote: >As I said before, the I18N core Working Group within W3C proposed to the XML Schema Working Group to refer to the ABNF from RFC 4646. I had a call with someone from the XML Schema working group this morning, and it seems they are various opinions in the XML Schema Working Group about how to refer to language tag specs: > >1) refer to a specific spec, e.g. RFC 3066 (this is what is currently at http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#language , i.e. a reference to RFC 3066) >2) make no type constraint, just refer to the (ISO) language codes >3) say that a validator needs to check current version of language code spec if it wants to do the right thing (where "needs" doesn't have any normative power), and providing the necessary reference for that. > >The current tendency within the XML Schema Working Group is that they might go for 3) and replace the reference to 3066 with a reference to BCP 47. >However, the pattern for validation of the language data type will probably not be changed, it will stay as RFC 3066 like > >[a-zA-Z]{1,8}(-[a-zA-Z0-9]{1,8})* This is very much the right way to go. There is no point for a using spec to be too detailled in terms of the syntax. And for the semantics, pointing to BCP 47 is the best thing to do. But I don't think this solves the problems for us. In RFC 4646, we defined some tags as well-formed. In RFC 4646bis, we suddenly say that some of these tags are not well-formed. We never would do this for valid tags, so I'm really not sure it is a good thing to do for well-formed tags. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 04:24:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2NpD-0004mV-7L; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:24:19 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2NpC-0004mQ-2o for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:24:18 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Np6-0004ly-7X for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:24:12 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Np4-0002A6-MX for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:24:12 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 2179E1C015B; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:24:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0D01C014C; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:24:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA1F58ECCA; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:24:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:24:10 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20071212092410.GB14869@nic.fr> References: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071211165939.GA13871@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <001301c83c84$bdc47e60$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001301c83c84$bdc47e60$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-4645bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 10:03:38PM -0800, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 31 lines which said: > I forgot to convert the file to UTF-8. That may be what he was > referring to. Yes. I suggest to put a version of the proposed future registry online somewhere. This would work around the I-D limitations. And allow us to test our tools on a "real" version. > In fact, draft-4646bis makes no provision for "optional" hex NCRs, > only UTF-8. Thanks for the reminding. My tool currently converts the NCR to Unicode. Should I stop? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 08:25:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Ral-0000HS-7y; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:25:39 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Raj-0000HN-Ln for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:25:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Raj-0000HF-Bv for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:25:37 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Raf-0001cw-Aa for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:25:37 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33652BC2A; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:25:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YRtQq04D3+1I; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:25:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p5011-ipad402marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.146.117.11]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id B307C2BC1F; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:25:21 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <475FE141.8010601@w3.org> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:25:21 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> <475F2439.6020007@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071212153653.0ae521d0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071212153653.0ae521d0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > At 08:58 07/12/12, Felix Sasaki wrote: > > >> As I said before, the I18N core Working Group within W3C proposed to the XML Schema Working Group to refer to the ABNF from RFC 4646. I had a call with someone from the XML Schema working group this morning, and it seems they are various opinions in the XML Schema Working Group about how to refer to language tag specs: >> >> 1) refer to a specific spec, e.g. RFC 3066 (this is what is currently at http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#language , i.e. a reference to RFC 3066) >> 2) make no type constraint, just refer to the (ISO) language codes >> 3) say that a validator needs to check current version of language code spec if it wants to do the right thing (where "needs" doesn't have any normative power), and providing the necessary reference for that. >> >> The current tendency within the XML Schema Working Group is that they might go for 3) and replace the reference to 3066 with a reference to BCP 47. >> However, the pattern for validation of the language data type will probably not be changed, it will stay as RFC 3066 like >> >> [a-zA-Z]{1,8}(-[a-zA-Z0-9]{1,8})* >> > > This is very much the right way to go. There is no point for a > using spec to be too detailled in terms of the syntax. And > for the semantics, pointing to BCP 47 is the best thing to do. > > But I don't think this solves the problems for us. > > In RFC 4646, we defined some tags as well-formed. In RFC 4646bis, we suddenly > say that some of these tags are not well-formed. We never would do this for > valid tags, so I'm really not sure it is a good thing to do for well-formed tags. > +1 Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 11:20:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2UJd-0004Vc-7I; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:20:09 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2UJb-0004VV-Ly for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:20:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2UJa-0004VD-Rq for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:20:06 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2UJY-0001B2-Uf for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:20:06 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2UIz-0006Q8-Ip for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:19:29 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-222.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.222]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:19:29 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-222.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:19:29 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:20:59 +0100 Organization: Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81><6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost><475E8342.1080206@w3.org><475F2439.6020007@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071212153653.0ae521d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-222.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: >> The current tendency within the XML Schema Working Group is >> that they might go for 3) and replace the reference to 3066 >> with a reference to BCP 47. >> However, the pattern for validation of the language data type >> will probably not be changed, it will stay as RFC 3066 like >> >> [a-zA-Z]{1,8}(-[a-zA-Z0-9]{1,8})* =20 > This is very much the right way to go. +1, that could be also a plan for 2616bis (their 2616 pattern is definitely wrong). > There is no point for a using spec to be too detailled in > terms of the syntax. And for the semantics, pointing to BCP 47 > is the best thing to do. +1 (however a validator should go to the trouble to check what it can check, the 4646bis ABNF is no exercise in futility) [end of the +1, now for the details:]=20 > But I don't think this solves the problems for us. =20 > In RFC 4646, we defined some tags as well-formed. In RFC=20 > 4646bis, we suddenly say that some of these tags are not=20 > well-formed. Some of these well-formed tags were _reserved_ for 4646bis. They were never _valid_ tags. Similar example, after some fights and flamewars 2822upd will admit that there never was a domain literal using NO-WS-CTL. It's not yet clear if that goes straight to /dev/null, or gets an . Lately I think the promotion or revision of a standard should never be done by the original authors, they tend to "know" too many things that were never spelled out in their document. > I'm really not sure it is a good thing to do for well-formed > tags. Let's ask our ADs, they know the similar issue with 2822upd. Our is a border case, not a simple "MUST NOT generate, MUST accept", it's "MUST NOT generate, MUST NOT accept as valid, MUST accept as well-formed" (and the third MUST could degenerate into a MAY or a SHOULD in practice, and end up as security issue) Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 11:23:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2UMR-0008Ht-Jy; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:03 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2UMQ-0008FO-CX for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:02 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2UMQ-0008EP-24 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:02 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2UMP-0001HF-IM for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:02 -0500 Received: from [10.72.72.117] (snvvpn1-10-72-72-c117.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.72.117]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lBCGMicN045139; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:22:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OzEYmgeb+IYeDgcfRqSgwpZmweJe6KaOxJyz0Ohc+Y0fI2VX86EQAnNl21S/wy2s Message-ID: <47600AD4.6000500@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:22:44 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Felix Sasaki Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> <475F2439.6020007@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071212153653.0ae521d0@localhost> <475FE141.8010601@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <475FE141.8010601@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Felix Sasaki wrote: >> >> In RFC 4646, we defined some tags as well-formed. In RFC 4646bis, we >> suddenly >> say that some of these tags are not well-formed. We never would do >> this for >> valid tags, so I'm really not sure it is a good thing to do for >> well-formed tags. >> > +1 > I agree.... except.... This is exactly what we did in RFC 4646. We made a vast array of "well-formed" but invalid tags illegal (by narrowing the ABNF). In 4646bis, one could say that we were doing the same thing--making a (much smaller) array of tags (which were never valid) illegal. And we *have* changed the ABNF in a manner that narrows it in 4646bis already. We have narrowed the grandfathered production substantially. I have no problem with XML Schema or others referencing the 4646 ANBF instead of the 4646bis ABNF for well-formness checking. It won't introduce anything particularly bad. And I am somewhat allergic to changing the ABNF because I have personally felt like we should resist tampering. As an implementer, though, I really hate supporting extlang, now that it does nothing. So I'd propose: 1. Remove extlang from the ABNF in 4646bis. That would make the language production: language = (2*3ALPHA) ; shortest ISO 639 code / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag 2. In the section on conformance, permit 4646bis well-formedness to reference either the current ABNF or an "obs-language" production that looks like: obs-language = (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag extlang = *3("-" 3ALPHA) ; removed in this version 3. Add a note saying that no tags were ever valid under obs-language, but that some processors may permit them. Also note that 3066 well-formedness differed substantially from 4646/4646bis well-formedness and provide the 3066 production in that section for completeness. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 12:19:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VEd-0003iv-1H; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:19:03 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VEc-0003im-JP for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:19:02 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VEc-0003id-9B for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:19:02 -0500 Received: from hu-out-0506.google.com ([72.14.214.237]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VEb-0002m2-B6 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:19:02 -0500 Received: by hu-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 31so161135huc.14 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:19:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=wPnkOWCzcy+uBXXlvwJRz2mKzmaw68opegTQbSslM6g=; b=l7s1PlL4UWtEA/xtWsFlO/qWLQ8tTeM9sAsIEltqH9LCbz4XWZfsOZDwCiNQH6oFhBWUZcLzAp1s5FXrennf98pjZj1PVCb91uU24p8QMBWsLHb9M6V9pvHgCgtp0Q3pefqdTpgt+h4Z0vcHJT/5bx7aVnJGszzDbit6R/S+I6E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=hGA4KoMb5qd3L2VbL3rXsNHgG4wHMxHH3Q25ES4dsk7a4JLY9SRt2I9wjlJpC9r/CJuScDu4P5w3zFbobfp7jnmbUk00FA1EI5FxQKpMgPeS09mepO3BLTgGsT8v8ywfgLC9iLIghPbj7pfu4zN9zIf5qNzuVSDlBiNSFaFaFEw= Received: by 10.142.213.9 with SMTP id l9mr351081wfg.104.1197479938630; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.8.13 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:18:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712120918v662e8750j421b28bdd566a6ea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:18:58 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: <47600AD4.6000500@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> <475F2439.6020007@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071212153653.0ae521d0@localhost> <475FE141.8010601@w3.org> <47600AD4.6000500@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: ed10592dee544c42 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0769347313==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0769347313== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_43222_1201032.1197479938595" ------=_Part_43222_1201032.1197479938595 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I like that approach; clever. On Dec 12, 2007 8:22 AM, Addison Phillips wrote: > Felix Sasaki wrote: > >> > >> In RFC 4646, we defined some tags as well-formed. In RFC 4646bis, we > >> suddenly > >> say that some of these tags are not well-formed. We never would do > >> this for > >> valid tags, so I'm really not sure it is a good thing to do for > >> well-formed tags. > >> > > +1 > > > > I agree.... except.... > > This is exactly what we did in RFC 4646. We made a vast array of > "well-formed" but invalid tags illegal (by narrowing the ABNF). In > 4646bis, one could say that we were doing the same thing--making a (much > smaller) array of tags (which were never valid) illegal. And we *have* > changed the ABNF in a manner that narrows it in 4646bis already. We have > narrowed the grandfathered production substantially. > > I have no problem with XML Schema or others referencing the 4646 ANBF > instead of the 4646bis ABNF for well-formness checking. It won't > introduce anything particularly bad. And I am somewhat allergic to > changing the ABNF because I have personally felt like we should resist > tampering. > > As an implementer, though, I really hate supporting extlang, now that it > does nothing. So I'd propose: > > 1. Remove extlang from the ABNF in 4646bis. That would make the language > production: > > language = (2*3ALPHA) ; shortest ISO 639 code > / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use > / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag > > > 2. In the section on conformance, permit 4646bis well-formedness to > reference either the current ABNF or an "obs-language" production that > looks like: > > obs-language = (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code > / 4ALPHA ; reserved for future use > / 5*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag > > extlang = *3("-" 3ALPHA) ; removed in this version > > 3. Add a note saying that no tags were ever valid under obs-language, > but that some processors may permit them. Also note that 3066 > well-formedness differed substantially from 4646/4646bis well-formedness > and provide the 3066 production in that section for completeness. > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_43222_1201032.1197479938595 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I like that approach; clever.

On Dec 12, 2007 8:22 AM, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
Felix Sasaki wrote:
>>
>> In RFC 4646, we defined some tags as well-formed. In RFC 4646bis, we
>> suddenly
>> say that some of these tags are not well-formed. We never would do
>> this for
>> valid tags, so I'm really not sure it is a good thing to do for
>> well-formed tags.
>>
> +1
>

I agree.... except....

This is exactly what we did in RFC 4646. We made a vast array of
"well-formed" but invalid tags illegal (by narrowing the ABNF). In
4646bis, one could say that we were doing the same thing--making a (much
smaller) array of tags (which were never valid) illegal. And we *have*
changed the ABNF in a manner that narrows it in 4646bis already. We have
narrowed the grandfathered production substantially.

I have no problem with XML Schema or others referencing the 4646 ANBF
instead of the 4646bis ABNF for well-formness checking. It won't
introduce anything particularly bad. And I am somewhat allergic to
changing the ABNF because I have personally felt like we should resist
tampering.

As an implementer, though, I really hate supporting extlang, now that it
does nothing. So I'd propose:

1. Remove extlang from the ABNF in 4646bis. That would make the language
production:

language      = (2*3ALPHA)             ; shortest ISO 639 code
              / 4ALPHA                 ; reserved for future use
              / 5*8ALPHA               ; registered language subtag


2. In the section on conformance, permit 4646bis well-formedness to
reference either the current ABNF or an "obs-language" production that
looks like:

obs-language  = (2*3ALPHA [ extlang ]) ; shortest ISO 639 code
              / 4ALPHA                 ; reserved for future use
              / 5*8ALPHA               ; registered language subtag

extlang       = *3("-" 3ALPHA)         ; removed in this version

3. Add a note saying that no tags were ever valid under obs-language,
but that some processors may permit them. Also note that 3066
well-formedness differed substantially from 4646/4646bis well-formedness
and provide the 3066 production in that section for completeness.

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


_______________________________________________



--
Mark ------=_Part_43222_1201032.1197479938595-- --===============0769347313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0769347313==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 12:36:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VVl-0007Op-Uc; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:36:45 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VVl-0007Ok-4k for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:36:45 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VVk-0007Oa-RJ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:36:44 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VVi-0003Sa-VX for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:36:44 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VV0-0004Cw-G0 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:35:58 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-222.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.222]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:35:58 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-222.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:35:58 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:34:36 +0100 Organization: Lines: 5 Message-ID: References: <019601c83818$b06c3070$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81><6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost><475E8342.1080206@w3.org><475F2439.6020007@w3.org><6.0.0.20.2.20071212153653.0ae521d0@localhost><475FE141.8010601@w3.org> <47600AD4.6000500@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20712120918v662e8750j421b28bdd566a6ea@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-222.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > I like that approach; clever. LGTM _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 15:00:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Xl4-0000VK-IM; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:00:42 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Xl2-0000PB-E7 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:00:40 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Xl2-0000P3-37 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:00:40 -0500 Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Xl1-00024t-Ni for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:00:40 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=TRi2/nMeGrhjgVMp/5zHOQS7UY1jdF1x9PtJiUUQPsk1UX8H2U2K4/wicRHck6jN; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.81.185] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1J2Xkw-0002Bo-5z for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:00:34 -0500 Message-ID: <005701c83cf9$f5c1c820$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr><30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com><20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr> Subject: Re: [Ltru] RE: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:02:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a4beb055f130b31a4d7dddc8e0ce9a585a3785b42c7371b2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.81.185 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Peter Constable" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:04 PM > Subject: [Ltru] RE: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) > > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] ... >> Why? What does it buy us? Or which disease it protects us against? > > It protects lots of implementers from having to support subtags that don't really get used. ... I don't find this persuasive. After all, what does it mean to "support" a subtag, and is this any different from the situtation with respect to the thousands of language subtags referring to languages for which typical software will have absolutely no special support? As far as I can tell, the impact of encountering an unknown subtag is no greater than running into (or needing to generate) an unknown x-whatever. Which are we more likely to see deployed in, say, a public information kiosk - a browser with localization options for Gothic, for Klingon, or for something like a simplified French being discussed on the ietf-languages@iana.org list? (To me it appears to be more than merely a simplified orthography, if the pages I've read are any indication, since the writing I've seen was also characterized by extreme clarity and simplicity.) Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 15:42:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YPV-0006Mn-RP; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:42:29 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YPU-0006HI-9K for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:42:28 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YPT-0006HA-Vy for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:42:27 -0500 Received: from virtual3.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YPS-00019w-DS for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:42:27 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 8B7FF24080E; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:42:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 353CC11093; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:37:06 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:37:06 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Frank Ellermann Message-ID: <20071212203706.GA23776@sources.org> References: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071211165939.GA13871@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-4645bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 11:47:46PM +0100, Frank Ellermann wrote a message of 17 lines which said: > Internet Drafts need to be US-ASCII. Just pipe > it through 4645bis.awk to get the UTF-8 version: > Or ncr2utf8.py, attached :-) I tested the UTF-8 version of 4645bis and everything is OK. It is much simpler now :-) unicodechar = satisfy (\thechar -> let c = (ord thechar) in (c >= 0x21 && c <= 0x10ffff)) "Character" --X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT Content-Type: text/x-python; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ncr2utf8.py" #!/usr/bin/python """ Converts a text file with hexadecimal Numeric Character References (like œ) to an UTF-8 file""" import sys import re ncr = re.compile("&#x([0-9A-F]+);", re.IGNORECASE) extension = re.compile("^(.*)\.([a-z0-9_-]+)$", re.IGNORECASE) def convert(thematch): codepoint = long(thematch.group(1), 16) return unichr(codepoint) for ifilename in sys.argv[1:]: print "Converting %s..." % ifilename match = extension.search (ifilename) if match: ext_ifile = match.group(2) ofilename = match.group(1) + "-utf8." + ext_ifile else: ofilename = ifilename + "-utf8" ifile = open(ifilename, "r") ofile = open(ofilename, "w") data = unicode(ifile.read(), "ascii") udata = re.sub(ncr, convert, data) ifile.close() ofile.write(udata.encode("utf-8")) ofile.close() --X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 15:53:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YaB-0001X8-La; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:53:31 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YaA-0001X2-LH for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:53:30 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YaA-0001Wu-BW for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:53:30 -0500 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.235]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YaA-0001ST-0r for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:53:30 -0500 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so140215wra.13 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:53:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=/NwUWPTcPOapGN5s6iVTbg77LyTpHKMQyjS7GtVHF7A=; b=VOT7rGp29oLn+fQGXkn19EZm8ac9SXq/DGFwNW69U0TrjBbhQJ7A73ct/PZueFFWc4LQ9HcL0qWyTKTrMjwzKapGwy72Dka9TKjmZ4AZ6gjlccMGFcopvbl5dMkWbfAZDCYozGnaf76Epkk+eB/mQYSLnUu3RZrLA4pd06N2NUs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=l5DEIJvv3ys3ddkF10Sq6cQ//0Rgoq5h5wCYwUf9L63yyeobPAQYIR0/Hlh/HtIvo1r0Heg/LHl7aXoz6VIce5Ynb84SZoyLRKG92lxFcdAe9SH2PEYUwvj0cS7/X5Ei4G6J4Oiw9dgGDBIfyqe+yYWZf5u+ESNxzhJmfjgzeXI= Received: by 10.142.14.20 with SMTP id 20mr543471wfn.2.1197492808097; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:53:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.132.11 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:53:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:53:28 -0500 From: "Ira McDonald" To: "Ira McDonald" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> <475F2439.6020007@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071212153653.0ae521d0@localhost> <475FE141.8010601@w3.org> <47600AD4.6000500@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20712120918v662e8750j421b28bdd566a6ea@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Addison - well done! Nice and simple - not obscure to any implementor or designer. Cheers, - Ira On Dec 12, 2007 12:34 PM, Frank Ellermann wrote: > Mark Davis wrote: > > > I like that approach; clever. > > LGTM > -- Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 work: +1-906-494-2434 home: +1-906-494-2697 email: blueroofmusic@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 16:06:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YmY-00078s-8z; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:06:18 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YmV-00078j-QD for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:06:15 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YmV-00078Z-GD for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:06:15 -0500 Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([133.27.228.201]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2YmR-0001n3-JX for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:06:15 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115ED2BC2E; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:06:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DEAl6lBJQ48B; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:06:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p5011-ipad402marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.146.117.11]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FD32BC2B; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:06:04 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <47604D3A.5040101@w3.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:06:02 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ira McDonald Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? References: <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> <475F2439.6020007@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071212153653.0ae521d0@localhost> <475FE141.8010601@w3.org> <47600AD4.6000500@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20712120918v662e8750j421b28bdd566a6ea@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Ira McDonald wrote: > Hi, > > Addison - well done! > +1 Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 16:25:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Z5F-0002FS-6W; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:25:37 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Z5E-0002FN-IX for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:25:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Z5E-0002FF-8k for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:25:36 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Z5C-0002EV-Jw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:25:36 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Z4x-0005tq-Kt for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:25:19 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-222.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.222]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:25:19 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-222.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:25:19 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:27:34 +0100 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81><20071211165939.GA13871@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <20071212203706.GA23776@sources.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-222.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-4645bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > Or ncr2utf8.py, attached :-) Better, if unichr() catches bogus codepoints. > It is much simpler now :-) Slightly exaggerated, for XML-converters NCRs or UTF-8 are both fine, for human readers it's a matter of taste depending on their platform and their fonts. Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 17:50:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2aPg-0006Om-F5; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:50:48 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2aPg-0006OZ-11 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:50:48 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2aPf-0006O2-M4 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:50:47 -0500 Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.214] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2aPf-0007XZ-5S for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:50:47 -0500 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:50:46 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.76]) with mapi; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:50:32 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:50:30 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] RE: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) Thread-Topic: [Ltru] RE: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) Thread-Index: Acg8+bKTTV/IiOgjTQuJFikgpy1vXAAFnicg Message-ID: References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr><30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com><20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr> <005701c83cf9$f5c1c820$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <005701c83cf9$f5c1c820$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Please understand: I'm not among those opposed to this registration; I thin= k it's a valid request, it looks like there probably is a user community, a= nd so the main issue in my mind is how it relates to other things called 'o= rtograf'. But I still think on ietf-languages we want some operational bar, whether f= ormalized or not. Granted, since RFC 1766 we have provided a very large num= ber of tags that need to be supported but which would not get used. Those a= re made from a limited set of subtags, though, and there are implementation= s that need to provide certain support for each subtag (e.g. providing UI s= trings). Each added variant subtag adds to those support requirements. I th= ink it's reasonable to ask that those be things that really are going to ge= t used, and to protect ourselves from supporting junk. If I were to request= a subtag "flibtgit" for some idiosyncratic form of expression I just inven= ted, I'd hope it would get rejected. Maybe the rationale I gave below isn't= the basis you'd want to use for rejecting it -- fine, come up with a diffe= rent statement. At the end of the day, I'd hope you'd reject it. Peter. > -----Original Message----- > From: Randy Presuhn [mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:03 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] RE: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004- > ORTOGRAF) > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > > From: "Peter Constable" > > To: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:04 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] RE: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004- > ORTOGRAF) > > > > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] > ... > >> Why? What does it buy us? Or which disease it protects us against? > > > > It protects lots of implementers from having to support subtags that > don't really get used. > ... > > I don't find this persuasive. After all, what does it mean to > "support" a subtag, > and is this any different from the situtation with respect to the > thousands of > language subtags referring to languages for which typical software will > have > absolutely no special support? As far as I can tell, the impact of > encountering > an unknown subtag is no greater than running into (or needing to > generate) > an unknown x-whatever. > > > Which are we more likely to see deployed in, say, a public information > kiosk - > a browser with localization options for Gothic, for Klingon, or for > something > like a simplified French being discussed on the ietf- > languages@iana.org > list? (To me it appears to be more than merely a simplified > orthography, > if the pages I've read are any indication, since the writing I've seen > was > also characterized by extreme clarity and simplicity.) > > > Randy > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 17:52:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2aQs-0000Ii-1G; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:52:02 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2aQq-0000ID-FD for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:52:00 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2aQq-0000I5-5W for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:52:00 -0500 Received: from smtp.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2aQn-0005Yi-Uj for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:52:00 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:51:57 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.117]) with mapi; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:51:57 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@lists.ietf.org" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:51:55 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? Thread-Index: Acg9AuHiaViJIyIyRFiekLYlzJ2fdAADpWdA Message-ID: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20071211163740.0a090850@localhost> <475E8342.1080206@w3.org> <475F2439.6020007@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20071212153653.0ae521d0@localhost> <475FE141.8010601@w3.org> <47600AD4.6000500@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20712120918v662e8750j421b28bdd566a6ea@mail.gmail.com> <47604D3A.5040101@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <47604D3A.5040101@w3.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Works for me. (I assume no one will complain that I didn't use "+1" ;-) Peter. > -----Original Message----- > From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org] > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:06 PM > To: Ira McDonald > Cc: ltru@lists.ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Remove extlang from ABNF? > > Ira McDonald wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Addison - well done! > > > +1 > > Felix > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 13 09:43:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2pI4-00022Q-RQ; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:43:56 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2pI1-000225-VN for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:43:53 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2pI1-00021w-Ku for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:43:53 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2pI1-0005Jb-9s for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:43:53 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 58F431C00E0; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:43:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 543371C009D; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:43:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5142558EB9B; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:43:52 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:43:52 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20071213144352.GB794@nic.fr> References: <003501c83931$711bfee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20071211121448.GA15365@nic.fr> <30b660a20712110749j30acdd83ue90a532b6b551660@mail.gmail.com> <20071211161755.GB12784@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 07:04:28PM -0800, Peter Constable wrote a message of 20 lines which said: > It protects lots of implementers from having to support subtags that > don't really get used. No implementer will "support" all the languages (not to mention the other subtags) of 4646bis/4645bis. They will recognize them (parse them correctly) but I do not imagine a program whose authors will commit to do something useful with *every* language in the LSR? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 13 23:42:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J32NQ-0002N8-QT; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:42:20 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J32NP-0002Me-6d for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:42:19 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J32NO-0002MW-Qf for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:42:18 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J32NM-0002uh-MY for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:42:18 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J32NJ-0006Zm-68; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:42:13 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:42:13 -0500 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20071214044213.GI29729@mercury.ccil.org> References: <006901c8343d$ea1f2c20$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071202191403.GA8528@mercury.ccil.org> <00eb01c83571$804f33f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00eb01c83571$804f33f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > To me, and perhaps only to me, saying that people tagging Cantonese as > "zh[-yue]" should be encouraged to switch to "yue", but people tagging > Mandarin as "zh[-cmn]" should not be encouraged to switch to "cmn", is > tantamount to saying that "zh" is a synonym for "cmn". If it is not, > I'd like to know how it is not. No, it's saying that as a pragmatic matter, most "cmn" documents are tagged "zh" for historical reasons, and that tagging your document "cmn" may make it difficult to find. -- Samuel Johnson on playing the violin: John Cowan "Difficult do you call it, Sir? cowan@ccil.org I wish it were impossible." http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 03:00:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J35TN-0006fy-8p; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 03:00:41 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J35TL-0006fp-Of for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 03:00:39 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J35TF-0006fa-JI; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 03:00:33 -0500 Received: from ns3.neustar.com ([156.154.24.138]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J35TF-0007Br-6g; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 03:00:33 -0500 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns3.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4011175BD; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 08:00:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J35Sk-0001dI-BO; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 03:00:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 03:00:02 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-03.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Update to the Language Subtag Registry Author(s) : D. Ewell Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-03.txt Pages : 896 Date : 2007-12-14 This memo defines the procedure used to update the IANA Language Subtag Registry in conjunction with the publication of RFC 4646bis [RFC EDITOR NOTE: replace with actual RFC number], for use in forming tags for identifying languages. As an Internet-Draft, it also contained a complete replacement of the contents of the Registry to be used by IANA in updating it. To prevent confusion, this material was removed before publication. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-12-14025310.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-12-14025310.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 09:59:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3C12-0001aI-B7; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:59:52 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3C11-0001XB-57 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:59:51 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3C10-0001Wu-Qv for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:59:50 -0500 Received: from mta13.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] helo=mta13.adelphia.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3C10-0008BO-DW for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:59:50 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071214145949.RHCH8492.mta13.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:59:49 -0500 Message-ID: <00eb01c83e61$f938d3e0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 06:59:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stéphane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> It protects lots of implementers from having to support subtags that >> don't really get used. > > No implementer will "support" all the languages (not to mention the > other subtags) of 4646bis/4645bis. They will recognize them (parse > them correctly) but I do not imagine a program whose authors will > commit to do something useful with *every* language in the LSR? I agree. Many of these languages do not have a written form; more than 400 are extinct. I can't imagine any implementer feeling obligated to provide software support for every one of them: "Oh no, they split Northern Nambikuára six ways; now we have to come up with five new resource files for our Windows app." I can think of a few reasons why we don't want true junk in the Registry (not to imply that M. Périard's request is junk, nothing of the sort), but this one doesn't sway me. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 10:09:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3CA7-0007jB-TC; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:09:15 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3CA6-0007h8-P2 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:09:14 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3CA6-0007h0-98 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:09:14 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3CA5-0008Ng-VC for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:09:14 -0500 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 07:09:13 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.70.185]) with mapi; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 07:09:13 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 07:09:07 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) Thread-Index: Acg+Yf8nNo2s3UUATsuuapUhkU1gIQAALLOQ Message-ID: References: <00eb01c83e61$f938d3e0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <00eb01c83e61$f938d3e0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1133170178==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 12:36:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3ET0-0000jh-K4; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:36:54 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3ESy-0000gW-Rb for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:36:52 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3ESy-0000gO-Go for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:36:52 -0500 Received: from mta16.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.211]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3ESy-00042e-2N for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:36:52 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071212155708.HYTA23096.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81>; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:57:08 -0500 Message-ID: <002701c83cd7$a6200290$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <000301c83b00$e828dcd0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071211165939.GA13871@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <001301c83c84$bdc47e60$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> <20071212092410.GB14869@nic.fr> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:57:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-4645bis-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Stéphane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> In fact, draft-4646bis makes no provision for "optional" hex NCRs, >> only UTF-8. > > Thanks for the reminding. My tool currently converts the NCR to > Unicode. Should I stop? A tool that is intended to check the Registry for conformance to the spec should stop. A tool that is intended for practical use in language tagging might choose to be robust and continue to interpret hex NCRs, so it will work with both old and new versions of the Registry. This would backfire if a subtag were added with a Description or Comments field containing a sequence that looked like a hex NCR, which would be a supremely bad idea. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 14:15:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3G0c-0004CI-To; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:15:42 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3G0V-00040v-G2 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:15:35 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3G0U-00040Q-79; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:15:34 -0500 Received: from ns0.neustar.com ([156.154.16.158]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3G0S-0005Zv-0d; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:15:34 -0500 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns0.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9C9328B9; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:15:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Fzx-0003iB-PS; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:15:01 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:15:01 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10.txt Pages : 71 Date : 2007-12-14 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-12-14134641.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-12-14134641.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 14:41:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GPS-00067A-IR; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:41:22 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GPR-00061p-L4 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:41:21 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GPR-0005yY-3T for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:41:21 -0500 Received: from outbound-va3.frontbridge.com ([216.32.180.16] helo=outbound4-va3-R.bigfish.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GPQ-0007vC-Iy for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:41:21 -0500 Received: from outbound4-va3.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound4-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24BE71830717; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:38:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail163-va3-R.bigfish.com (si1-va3 [10.7.14.5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by outbound4-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233F51138071; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:38:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail163-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail163-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CAFE11E86AF; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:43:12 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP X-MS-Exchange-Organization-Antispam-Report: OrigIP: 64.14.251.196; Service: EHS Received: by mail163-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1197654192515876_26330; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:43:12 +0000 (UCT) Received: from USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.251.196]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail163-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698E2960057; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:43:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail02.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.26]) by USCCIMTA02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5) with ESMTP id 2007121409430809-86440 ; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:43:08 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20071214044213.GI29729@mercury.ccil.org> To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 CCH7 December 15, 2006 Message-ID: From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:40:29 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 12/14/2007 09:40:30, Serialize complete at 12/14/2007 09:40:30, Itemize by SMTP Server on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 12/14/2007 09:43:08 AM, Serialize by Router on USCCiMTA02/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at 12/14/2007 09:43:12 AM, Serialize complete at 12/14/2007 09:43:12 AM X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 42e3ed3f10a1d8bef690f09da16f507a Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2008677399==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============2008677399== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 006154B4882573B1_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 006154B4882573B1_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Is the situation any different for Cantonese language? Most Cantonese documents and speech are tagged zh or zh-yue. If you deprecate "zh", it might not be helpful for written language, but it's a necessity to have two separate tags for tagged spoken language. With the explosion of online video, tagged audio content is increasing. Regards, Karen Broome John Cowan 12/13/2007 08:42 PM To Doug Ewell cc LTRU Working Group Subject [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs Doug Ewell scripsit: > To me, and perhaps only to me, saying that people tagging Cantonese as > "zh[-yue]" should be encouraged to switch to "yue", but people tagging > Mandarin as "zh[-cmn]" should not be encouraged to switch to "cmn", is > tantamount to saying that "zh" is a synonym for "cmn". If it is not, > I'd like to know how it is not. No, it's saying that as a pragmatic matter, most "cmn" documents are tagged "zh" for historical reasons, and that tagging your document "cmn" may make it difficult to find. -- Samuel Johnson on playing the violin: John Cowan "Difficult do you call it, Sir? cowan@ccil.org I wish it were impossible." http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_alternative 006154B4882573B1_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Is the situation any different for Cantonese language?  Most Cantonese documents and speech are tagged zh or zh-yue. If you deprecate "zh", it might not be helpful for written language, but it's a necessity to have two separate tags for tagged spoken language. With the explosion of online video, tagged audio content is increasing.

Regards,

Karen Broome  






John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>

12/13/2007 08:42 PM

To
Doug Ewell <dewell@roadrunner.com>
cc
LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
[Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs





Doug Ewell scripsit:

> To me, and perhaps only to me, saying that people tagging Cantonese as
> "zh[-yue]" should be encouraged to switch to "yue", but people tagging
> Mandarin as "zh[-cmn]" should not be encouraged to switch to "cmn", is
> tantamount to saying that "zh" is a synonym for "cmn".  If it is not,
> I'd like to know how it is not.

No, it's saying that as a pragmatic matter, most "cmn" documents are tagged
"zh" for historical reasons, and that tagging your document "cmn" may make
it difficult to find.

--
Samuel Johnson on playing the violin:           John Cowan
"Difficult do you call it, Sir?                 cowan@ccil.org
I wish it were impossible."                    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
--=_alternative 006154B4882573B1_=-- --===============2008677399== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2008677399==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 14:50:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GXs-0007SD-Bp; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:50:04 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GXq-0007S4-Sm for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:50:02 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GXq-0007Rv-J4; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:50:02 -0500 Received: from ns1.neustar.com ([2001:503:c779:1a::9c9a:108a]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GXq-00070o-6u; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:50:02 -0500 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1B526E77; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GXq-0004dw-0W; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:50:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:50:02 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.txt Pages : 75 Date : 2007-12-14 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-12-14144548.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-12-14144548.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 15:06:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GnM-0001QL-2f; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:06:04 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GnL-0001Mv-4Q for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:06:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GnK-0001LC-Mv for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:06:02 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3GnK-0007Tt-8P for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:06:02 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lBEK61mw029488 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:06:01 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject: content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=P+N7xcYXFAHkqWu7TlUlDXyvj+w2i4r7j5sHuItIRBprh+M2+IHqgvAyO/vjWmTa Message-ID: <4762E228.1090405@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:06:00 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Subject: [Ltru] posted draft-11 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Obviously, I just posted draft-11 (draft-10 had the shortest life of a I-D that I'm aware of). It contains numerous edits based on this list's discussions. The updated draft is also available on inter-locale in HTML, TXT, and XML formats. The diff from draft-10 can be accessed here: http://tinyurl.com/2ahuqo Best Regards, Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 15:11:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Gs8-0005G6-WE; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:11:01 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Gs7-0005Fa-Cy for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:10:59 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Gs7-0005FP-2H for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:10:59 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Gs6-0000Oj-PM for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:10:58 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J3Gs6-0000Vh-50; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:10:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:10:58 -0500 To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs Message-ID: <20071214201058.GG15079@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071214044213.GI29729@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > Is the situation any different for Cantonese language? Most Cantonese > documents and speech are tagged zh or zh-yue. If you deprecate "zh", it > might not be helpful for written language, but it's a necessity to have > two separate tags for tagged spoken language. With the explosion of online > video, tagged audio content is increasing. 1) zh is not being deprecated. 2) zh-yue is being deprecated in favor of plain yue. 3) zh-cmn is being deprecated in favor of cmn. 4) People should think twice about using cmn rather than plain zh. I think that's a fair summary. -- I marvel at the creature: so secret and John Cowan so sly as he is, to come sporting in the pool cowan@ccil.org before our very window. Does he think that http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Men sleep without watch all night? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 15:47:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HRH-0006sZ-Ay; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:47:19 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HRF-0006qB-BH for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:47:17 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HRE-0006q3-OM for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:47:17 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HRD-0000LL-3a for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:47:16 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HOm-0006qU-Vw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:44:44 +0000 Received: from c-134-88-18.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.18]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:44:44 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-18.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:44:44 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:38:08 +0100 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <4762E228.1090405@yahoo-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-18.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: posted draft-11 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: =20 > The diff from draft-10 can be accessed here: > http://tinyurl.com/2ahuqo BTW, the IETF tools server meanwhile offers a "diff1" link to compare any I-D with its predecessor, e.g. should always offer that for the last known draft. For a comparison with the last WG draft (without the fantasy island codes) see http://tinyurl.com/39vvdm Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 15:53:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HWy-00081l-V4; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:53:12 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HWy-00081g-Fu for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:53:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HWy-00081X-6F for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:53:12 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HWw-0000Sc-5X for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:53:12 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J3HWv-00035t-Sv for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:53:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:53:09 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20071214205309.GJ15079@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207211621.GB3346@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071207211621.GB3346@mercury.ccil.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Subject: [Ltru] Corrections for 4646bis-11 (was: Review of 4646bis-10: registration authorities) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Scripsi: > Throughout 4646bis-10 there is confusion between "registration authority", > "maintenance authority", "maintenance agency", and "maintaining authority". > Technically, in ISO a registration authority has discretion to choose > which code elements it registers and which it does not, whereas a maintenance > agency tracks what other organizations do. ISO 639 has registration > authorities, and ISO 15942 has one; but ISO 3166 has a maintenance agency, > because it can only register the countries that UNSD assigns numerical codes to. This whole of corrections didn't make it into -11: > I think these are all the affected places: [2.2.1 correction omitted, per Peter's objection] 2.2.3: s/maintenance agency/registration authority/. 2.2.6 (6): s/maintaining authority/registration authority/ (for extensions) 3.4 (13): s/maintenance or registration authority/registration authority or maintenance agency/ 3.4 (14) (B): for "ISO 639 maintenance agency/registration authority (MA/RA) has" read "The ISO 639 registration authorities have". 3.4 (15): s/registration authority for ISO 3166/maintenance agency for ISO 3166/. 3.6: s/maintenance agency/registration authority/ for all 639-* standards. 3.7: s/maintaining or registering authority/registration authority/. Follow this sentence with a parenthetical sentence saying: (For this purpose, the term "registration authority" includes maintenance agencies.) 3.7: s/maintaining authority/registration authority/ (several places). 5.2: s/maintaining authority/registration authority/ (2 places). -- All Gaul is divided into three parts: the part John Cowan that cooks with lard and goose fat, the part http://ccil.org/~cowan that cooks with olive oil, and the part that cowan@ccil.org cooks with butter. -- David Chessler _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 15:58:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HcK-0006D8-53; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:58:44 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HcJ-00068z-6Z for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:58:43 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HcI-00065n-Pw for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:58:42 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HcI-00020U-AX for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:58:42 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J3HcI-0003PH-0z for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:58:42 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:58:42 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20071214205841.GK15079@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071207213756.GC3346@mercury.ccil.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 3.5 to App. B X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Scripsi: > Here's the rest of my review, except for the macrolanguage section of 4.1, > which is in a separate posting. Only a few of these changes made it in to -11 either. 3.5: s/all other fields/any other fields/. 3.5: remove single-sentence graf about extended language subtags. 3.5: draft has both "publicly" and "publically" in different places; both are orthographically acceptable, but pick one and stick to it. 3.5: s/language is registered/language is already registered/. 3.8: rename section to "Replacement of the Language Subtag Registry"; s/update/replacement/; s/updated/replacement/. 3.8: s/Once published/Once the registry is published/. 4.1: s/Sometimes there is a choice/There is always a choice/, which is much nearer the truth. 4.1: s/thus not be selected/thus will not be selected/. 4.1: s/zh-cmn/cmn/ (twice). 4.4: The definition of "canonical form" here shouldn't have MUSTard in it; a definition is just a definition and shouldn't have any modal verbs. Point 2, s/SHOULD be/are/. Point 3, /MUST be/are/. Point 4, same as 3. 4.5: suggested rewrite of grafs 1-3: The value and semantic meaning of private use tags and of the subtags used within such a language tag are not defined by this document. Like all other subtags, they MUST conform to the format and content constraints in the ABNF. They have no meaning outside the private agreement between the parties that intend to use or exchange language tags that employ them, and so are are simply useless for information exchange without prior arrangement. The same subtags MAY be used with a different meaning under a separate private agreement. They SHOULD NOT be used where alternatives exist and SHOULD NOT be used in content or protocols intended for general use. However, a language tag which combines private use subtags with other subtags conveys more information that a purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. For some applications, this additional information MAY be useful. 5.1: s/update the registry/replace the existing registry in its entirety/. 7: s/rendering engines sometimes use/rendering engines MAY use/. 8 [record-jar]: add "chapter 5". [This one is reworded] Appendix B: divide final section into "Some Invalid Tags" and "Some Ill-Formed Tags". My suggestions for invalid tags are xxx-Defg-HQ, en-nedis, (which may become valid at some future time), de-1996-1996, and ar-a-aaa-b-bbb-a-ccc. My suggestions for ill-formed tags are de-419-DE, en-nuspelling, a-de, and perhaps a few more. -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org In might the Feanorians / that swore the unforgotten oath brought war into Arvernien / with burning and with broken troth. and Elwing from her fastness dim / then cast her in the waters wide, but like a mew was swiftly borne, / uplifted o'er the roaring tide. --the Earendillinwe _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 15:59:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HdX-0008Bx-IA; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:59:59 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HdW-0008Bp-BD for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:59:58 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HdW-0008Bh-0v for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:59:58 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3HdU-00022e-3H for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:59:57 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J3HdT-0003SN-T2 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:59:55 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:59:55 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20071214205955.GL15079@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Subject: [Ltru] Corrections to 4646bis-11 (was: Review of 4646bis-10, sections 1 to 3.4) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Scripsi: > They are intended to identify information which is commonly used > in association with language tags but is not part of language > identification. "which is ... but which are ..." should be "which is ... which is ..."; the implicit subject in either case is "information". > 3.1.1: change the definition of folding to "Folding is always done on > Unicode default grapheme boundaries". That says what the current text > says, and also prohibits folding in the middle of a Hangul syllable > written as separate jamo. I think we should reconsider this as Frank suggests, and fold only at whitespace, the same rule that RFC 2822 headers and the like use. As things stand, we cannot fold at whitespace except by placing the break after the space, making it a trailing space. -- In politics, obedience and support John Cowan are the same thing. --Hannah Arendt http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 16:47:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3INE-0004DK-UK; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:47:12 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3INE-0004DF-9E for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:47:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3IND-0004D7-Vo for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:47:11 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3IND-00023W-E9 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:47:11 -0500 Received: from [172.21.37.80] (duringperson-lx.corp.yahoo.com [172.21.37.80]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lBELl5KZ015963; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:47:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lSwjH4z9Eb5Eu0cSz4lNeBCqUhiP5egxN5sMZj7n/yHnGrK6Epl78YEEe/jLntYh Message-ID: <4762F9D9.5040904@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:47:05 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Corrections to 4646bis-11 References: <20071206163755.GP10807@mercury.ccil.org> <20071214205955.GL15079@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071214205955.GL15079@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > Scripsi: > >> They are intended to identify information which is commonly used >> in association with language tags but is not part of language >> identification. > > "which is ... but which are ..." should be "which is ... which is ..."; > the implicit subject in either case is "information". Done > >> 3.1.1: change the definition of folding to "Folding is always done on >> Unicode default grapheme boundaries". That says what the current text >> says, and also prohibits folding in the middle of a Hangul syllable >> written as separate jamo. > > I think we should reconsider this as Frank suggests, and fold only > at whitespace, the same rule that RFC 2822 headers and the like use. > As things stand, we cannot fold at whitespace except by placing the > break after the space, making it a trailing space. > I dunno, John. The problem here is messy, since, if we fold on whitespace, we preclude comments in a native language that doesn't use whitespace or we at least forcibly break it in a weird way (unfolding the text results in a spurious space being created). Although currently all comments are in English, I can certainly imagine including a quote or descriptive text in-language. Note that any trailing space is eaten by the unfolding rules. In record-jar's draft, I solved this by including a continuation character. I'm not suggesting that we include the continuation character and I'm not quite against your/Frank's suggested change (since I suspect we are engaged in a bit of over-engineering, as there isn't evidence of our needing this feature just yet). I just want to be a bit careful here. So... I guess in the course of the paragraph above I've talked myself into making the change..... -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 14 17:01:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3IbG-000071-QO; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:01:42 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3IbG-00006t-2G for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:01:42 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3IbF-00006k-Nz for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:01:41 -0500 Received: from mailb.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3IbF-0003tm-BF for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:01:41 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.114) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:01:40 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.114]) with mapi; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:01:40 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:01:39 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs Thread-Index: Acg+jYhfWYqc+EzfR/aggiYmwMcaeQADrwkA Message-ID: References: <20071214044213.GI29729@mercury.ccil.org> <20071214201058.GG15079@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071214201058.GG15079@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > 3) zh-cmn is being deprecated in favor of cmn. > > 4) People should think twice about using cmn rather than plain zh. I mentioned on 12/8 that there are other cases that also need consideration= . Here's what I wrote then: There is a deeper problem we should be considering: when does it make sense= for people to use the macro-language or the individual-language IDs in cas= es like Swahili, Malay, etc.? In fact, when does it make sense to use which= in cases for any macrolanguage ID in widespread use when there is a domina= nt encompassed language? This is an issue in these cases: ar/ara vs. arb (Arabic) kok vs. Knn (Konkani) ms/msa vs. mly (Malay) sw/swa vs. swh (Swahili) uz/uzb vs. uzn (Uzbek) zh/zho vs. cmn (Chinese) These are all the cases in category 2 of 'Macrolanguage analysis.txt' which= I sent as an attachment on 11/29. I didn't include Dogri as I had no indic= ation that doi is widely used, but we can certainly include it for consider= ation of this issue. >From what you say in (4), it seems your suggestion would be that people sho= uld think twice about using the individual-language ID rather than the macr= olanguage ID in *any* of these cases. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 15 00:58:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Q2X-0003hs-HB; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:58:21 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Q2W-0003hn-Ti for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:58:20 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Q2W-0003hf-K8 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:58:20 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Q2W-0004gh-6r for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:58:20 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071215055819.MMWA14939.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:58:19 -0500 Message-ID: <001101c83edf$7e7560f0$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:58:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Subject: [Ltru] Re: Proposal for a subtag registration (fr-2004-ORTOGRAF) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: >> I can think of a few reasons why we don't want true junk in the >> Registry (not to imply that M. Périard's request is junk, nothing of >> the sort), but this one doesn't sway me. > > Then please come up with an alternate junk-filtering-rationale > statement. Most of us could look at the list of constructed languages on LangMaker or invented writing systems on Omniglot, and agree that at least some of those don't belong in the Registry. I wish I could come up with a less Potter Stewart response than that. I do think something along the lines of "used by at least one individual or group outside the direct sphere of influence of the inventor" would be reasonable. > If we're trying to get some request to refine his proposal to make it > convincing in a case in which it borders on junk, and that person > starts asking why we care, we should be able to offer crisp answers > rather than start debating that point. I agree. > I predict that the frequency of these kinds of requests will > *increase*, not decrease or remain stable. I agree. But it will positively skyrocket if there is a perception that almost anything will be accepted. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 15 02:10:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3RAP-0001UP-66; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:10:33 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3RAN-0001OT-AZ for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:10:31 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3RAM-0001ML-U6 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:10:30 -0500 Received: from mta14.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.137]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3RAM-00026N-GA for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:10:30 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071212045420.EASM15266.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:54:20 -0500 Message-ID: <007201c83c7b$0eae3140$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:54:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Subject: [Ltru] MUSTard in the IANA section X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I think we all recognize and appreciate that IANA performs a valuable service for the language tagging community, and I'm sure none of us feel it would be appropriate to order them around like farm animals. At the same time, we understand that BCP 47 demands certain duties of the Reviewer, the ietf-languages list, and IANA, such that if these duties are not performed, some or all of the maintenance process may break down. For example, if the Reviewer does not issue a verdict on proposed subtags in a timely manner, or if IANA delays the release of a revised Registry or makes errors in doing so, some of the promises made by BCP 47 to producers and consumers of language tags are not kept. Consequently, it seems reasonable to me to use RFC 2119 "MUST" in some of these requirements. We are not saying that if IANA does not do this or that, we will chop off their hands, but we are stating the fact that it will adversely affect some part of the process. I don't claim to be an RFC 2119 lawyer or historian by any stretch, so if there is some longstanding tradition that RFC 2119 "MUST" is appropriate only for computers and demeaning when applied to humans, then I apologize and stand corrected. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 15 02:49:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3RmX-0007Jy-J1; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:49:57 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3RmW-0007DR-6s for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:49:56 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3RmQ-0006e9-7D for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:49:50 -0500 Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3RmO-0006SI-1V for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:49:50 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=pzYsZZSg8ILnl0YQwU45Xzm1s0Wdxa6teiSgun91kBUV28sKfX2TNF8vj1uYUsgZ; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.136.48] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1J3RmN-0007FR-9H for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:49:47 -0500 Message-ID: <000801c83eef$653d9660$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <007201c83c7b$0eae3140$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Subject: Re: [Ltru] MUSTard in the IANA section Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:52:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a4beb055f130b31a1521b7cb41be9ee7c5b302a06e153497350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.136.48 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 8:54 PM > Subject: [Ltru] MUSTard in the IANA section ... > Consequently, it seems reasonable to me to use RFC 2119 "MUST" in some > of these requirements. We are not saying that if IANA does not do this > or that, we will chop off their hands, but we are stating the fact that > it will adversely affect some part of the process. This is indeed how the 2119 terms are generally understood. > I don't claim to be an RFC 2119 lawyer or historian by any stretch, so > if there is some longstanding tradition that RFC 2119 "MUST" is > appropriate only for computers and demeaning when applied to humans, > then I apologize and stand corrected. ... The use of the RFC 2119 terms to distinguish mandatory and optional portions of a procedure is well understood, and I'd be surprised if an IETF-affiliated human found them demeaning. After all, they are used in this way in RFC 2418, among others. Randy as ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 15 06:57:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Vdw-0006PC-Im; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 06:57:20 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Vdv-0006P5-F9 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 06:57:19 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Vdv-0006Ox-5Y for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 06:57:19 -0500 Received: from relay-2.mailobj.net ([195.234.90.137]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3Vdu-0002ZE-JP for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 06:57:19 -0500 Received: from netcourrier.com (webmail-3.in.mailobj.net [192.168.90.140]) by relay-2.mailobj.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A600A14CCE1 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 12:57:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from [89.2.186.89] by webmail-3.netcourrier.com via html interface From: Nicolas Krebs To: ltru@ietf.org Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 12:57:16 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 2 X-Mailer: Medianet/v2.0 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Subject: [Ltru] deletion of Extended Language Subtags in draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hello, = I beg your pardon, but i have missed the discussion thread about = deletion of Extended Language Subtags, so i have only discovered it = in =22John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs=22 and in = draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10 in section 2.2.2 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10=23section-2.2.2 (and in the diff). = Could you give me pointers for the previous discussion? Here what i think about this. = ISO 639-3 contain/include language subtags for idioms which are not = languages, but dialects. Examples : aln Gheg Albanian als Tosk Albanian zdj Ngazidja Comorian wlc Mwali Comorian With =22Extended Language Subtags=22 format, i can build sq-aln and = sq-als, and there is no more issue about those idioms being dialects = or language. = Of course, LTRU wg is an IETF working group and do not work on poll, = so you are free to ignore my opinion. = _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 15 09:48:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3YJR-0008GS-J3; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:48:21 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3YJR-0008GM-8L for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:48:21 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3YJQ-0008GE-TD for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:48:20 -0500 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.215] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3YJQ-0004C8-Cf for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:48:20 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.113) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 06:48:19 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.113]) with mapi; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 06:48:19 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 06:48:11 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] deletion of Extended Language Subtags in draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] deletion of Extended Language Subtags in draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10 Thread-Index: Acg/Ead6gbkkYECySCS02/DWHDl8BAAFFnkw Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Nicolas Krebs [mailto:nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com] > Could you give me pointers for the previous discussion? Well, it's been under discussion for a few years now. But the focused, rece= nt discussion has mainly been in the "John Cowan throws..." and "Remove ext= lang..." thread, both started on or after 11/29. You'll also want to see th= e short "summary of recommendations..." thread from 12/1. > Here what i think about this. > > ISO 639-3 contain/include language subtags for idioms which are not > languages, but dialects. Examples : > aln Gheg Albanian > als Tosk Albanian > zdj Ngazidja Comorian > wlc Mwali Comorian > > With "Extended Language Subtags" format, i can build sq-aln and > sq-als, and there is no more issue about those idioms being dialects > or language. These are in 639-3 on the basis that some linguists at some point had prese= nted evidence that these should be considered distinct languages in Ethnolo= gue. These and certain other cases out of ~7000 in Ethnologue may be contro= versial. But it is not our place here to judge the decisions of ISO 639 unl= ess we think they create stability concerns we need to protect against in R= FC 4646bis. Certainly there's some relationship between sq and aln; however= , since three weeks ago the momentum has shifted toward abandoning the tent= ative plan to use extlangs. That means that aln, etc. will stand on their o= wn as language subtags. If at some point in the future ISO 639 deprecates a= ln etc. on the grounds that they are not distinct languages, our choices wo= uld be to leave things as they are or to deprecate them as well. > Of course, LTRU wg is an IETF working group and do not work on poll, > so you are free to ignore my opinion. The decision process is one of consensus. Everyone on this list has opinion= s, all of which need to be considered. The decision process shouldn't be a = matter of some subset of movers and shakers deciding they can ignore certai= n opinion. Ideally, it should be everyone deciding (on each issue), "Having= considered all the factors, this is a plan we can live with." In practice,= not everyone will always do that, but we need to try to address concerns a= nd minimize levels of dissent. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 15 11:54:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3aHQ-0004yx-IS; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 11:54:24 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3aHO-0004yl-K9 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 11:54:22 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3aHN-0004yc-UD for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 11:54:22 -0500 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3aHN-0001Ce-Fi for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 11:54:21 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071215165416.LAFZ14939.mta10.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2007 11:54:16 -0500 Message-ID: <006b01c83f3b$20b45a50$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 08:54:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Subject: [Ltru] Re: deletion of Extended Language Subtags in draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable replied to Nicolas Krebs: > Well, it's been under discussion for a few years now. But the focused, > recent discussion has mainly been in the "John Cowan throws..." and > "Remove extlang..." thread, both started on or after 11/29. You'll > also want to see the short "summary of recommendations..." thread from > 12/1. To clarify this a little for Nicolas: the plan to use extlangs was under discussion for a few years, while the plan NOT to use extlangs wasn't really considered until this past March. But while WG consensus was never declared on this topic, drafts have been written that bake the no-extlang approach into place, and it's widely understood that the debate is over. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 16 03:51:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3pDg-00036l-OA; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:51:32 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3pDf-00036g-T2 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:51:31 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3pDa-00036S-3h for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:51:26 -0500 Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3pDX-0002yp-TL for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:51:26 -0500 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id lBG8pB4c011696 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:51:11 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 61af_0d2e964a_abb4_11dc_8fb4_0014221fa3c9; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:51:10 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:54956) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:47:09 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20071216174834.06b019e0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:50:34 +0900 To: LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Subject: [Ltru] Fwd: LTRU Milestones past due X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear LTRU WG, I just got one more of these reminders. For the first time in many months, I think we should be in a better position now to estimate when we'll be able to reach these milestones. To make a proposal, I'll propose March 2008, hoping that that's on the safe side. Regards, Martin. >To: "LTRU Chair" ,"LTRU Chair" > >From: "WG Milestone Tracker" >Subject: LTRU Milestones past due >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:30:03 -0500 > > >Dear LTRU Working Group Chair(s): > >Below is a list of the LTRU Working Group milestones that are past due. >Please be reminded that changes to existing milestones or due dates require >Area Director approval. Therefore, please send comments, requests, or >status reports regarding these milestones directly to your Area Directors. > >To report that a milestone has been achieved, please send a message to >iesg-secretary@ietf.org with the name of the milestone and the completion >date. If you do not provide a completion date, then the completion date >recorded will be the date that your message is received. > >The IESG Secretariat >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Past Due Milestones: > >Jan 2007 Submit registry procedure update draft for IETF Last Call >Jan 2007 Submit registry data update draft for IETF Last Call >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 16 12:57:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3xjo-0001S6-1I; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:57:16 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3xjl-0001Rt-Tr for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:57:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3xjl-0001Rk-KA for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:57:13 -0500 Received: from bortzmeyer.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3xjk-00032c-6O for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:57:13 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 5578C240830; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:56:55 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0F10A12630; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:56:53 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:56:53 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20071216175653.GA4735@sources.org> References: <007201c83c7b$0eae3140$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <007201c83c7b$0eae3140$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: MUSTard in the IANA section X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 08:54:19PM -0800, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 34 lines which said: > if there is some longstanding tradition that RFC 2119 "MUST" is > appropriate only for computers and demeaning when applied to humans, That would be a very strange tradition because MUST always apply to humans - wether they are IANA employees or software programmers implementing protocols. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 16 14:17:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3yz0-0002iK-Pz; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:17:03 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J3yyz-0002hx-A5 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:17:01 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3yyy-0002hp-Ut for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:17:01 -0500 Received: from rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.150]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J3yyy-0006m1-Dl for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:17:00 -0500 Received: from [10.72.77.54] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c54.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.54]) by rsmtp2.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lBGJGs5t038824; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:16:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=gmIDTyx3XvHuYjo3pNeJtvmS7XQukUFXqW0zwx1mO3cRte6pP8O3Nh0KInYNyjSb Message-ID: <476579A6.8000109@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:16:54 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: LTRU Milestones past due References: <6.0.0.20.2.20071216174834.06b019e0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20071216174834.06b019e0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org March? (!!) That should definitely be on the safe side. I think we're close now to putting the document out. The major issues appear to be resolved. We have some word-smithing to do. Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. Martin Duerst wrote: > Dear LTRU WG, > > I just got one more of these reminders. For the first time in > many months, I think we should be in a better position now to > estimate when we'll be able to reach these milestones. > > To make a proposal, I'll propose March 2008, hoping that that's > on the safe side. > > Regards, Martin. > >> To: "LTRU Chair" ,"LTRU Chair" >> > >> From: "WG Milestone Tracker" >> Subject: LTRU Milestones past due >> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:30:03 -0500 >> >> >> Dear LTRU Working Group Chair(s): >> >> Below is a list of the LTRU Working Group milestones that are past due. >> Please be reminded that changes to existing milestones or due dates require >> Area Director approval. Therefore, please send comments, requests, or >> status reports regarding these milestones directly to your Area Directors. >> >> To report that a milestone has been achieved, please send a message to >> iesg-secretary@ietf.org with the name of the milestone and the completion >> date. If you do not provide a completion date, then the completion date >> recorded will be the date that your message is received. >> >> The IESG Secretariat >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Past Due Milestones: >> >> Jan 2007 Submit registry procedure update draft for IETF Last Call >> Jan 2007 Submit registry data update draft for IETF Last Call >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 16 16:17:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J40rJ-0001L6-8t; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:17:13 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J40rI-0001G6-Fh for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:17:12 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J40rI-0001Cv-3q for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:17:12 -0500 Received: from bortzmeyer.netaktiv.com ([80.67.170.53] helo=mail.bortzmeyer.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J40rH-0003T0-Oj for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:17:12 -0500 Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 8AE03240833; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:16:56 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 89B1112560; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:12:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:12:54 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Nicolas Krebs Message-ID: <20071216211253.GA1767@sources.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Re: deletion of Extended Language Subtags in draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-10 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 12:57:16PM +0100, Nicolas Krebs wrote a message of 36 lines which said: > ISO 639-3 contain/include language subtags for idioms which are not > languages, but dialects. You may consider them this way, but ISO decided and we cannot overturn them here. > With "Extended Language Subtags" format, i can build sq-aln and > sq-als, and there is no more issue about those idioms being dialects > or language. But you don't think that all the "encompassed languages" ("micro-languages") of ISO 639-3 are "just dialects", no? So, we would have to decide which are represented by extlangs and which are not. I believe it would be too complicated (and arbitrary because it would mean a discussion on a classification that was already decided by ISO). _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 17 09:38:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4H6i-0007yP-P2; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:38:12 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J4H6h-0007yB-H5 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:38:11 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4H6h-0007y2-71 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:38:11 -0500 Received: from smtp2.dataconnection.com ([192.91.191.8]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4H6g-0004R4-Pn for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:38:11 -0500 Received: from enfimail2.datcon.co.uk ([172.19.14.250]) by smtp2.dataconnection.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:38:10 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:38:09 -0000 Message-ID: <8AC1AD08D396174DBC4E6D44EFACCFB104BA5E22@enfimail2.datcon.co.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: MIB textual conventions for Uri and LangTag Thread-Index: AchAunF1xeq4X9FhTrSM+UPTrkyX5Q== From: "David McWalter" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Dec 2007 14:38:10.0201 (UTC) FILETIME=[72132090:01C840BA] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: Bill Fenner , dromasca@avaya.com, Juergen Schoenwaelder , kessler@cisco.com, Doug Ewell Subject: [Ltru] MIB textual conventions for Uri and LangTag X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear all, For information, the Uri and LangTag MIB textual conventions have been published. Thanks again to all who helped and commented. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5017.txt (Uri, Uri255, Uri1024) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5131.txt (LangTag) (The old 'LanguageTag' TC from RFC 2932 is marked as obsolete by publication of RFC 5132). Regards, David McWalter. dmcw@dataconnection.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 17 10:26:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4HrL-000245-NU; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:26:23 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J4HrJ-00023e-KI for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:26:21 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4HrJ-00023T-A8 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:26:21 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4HrH-0005nJ-OV for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:26:21 -0500 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 0158D1C00D5; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:26:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0661C009F; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:26:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E217958EBEF; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:26:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:26:18 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: David McWalter Message-ID: <20071217152618.GA16220@nic.fr> References: <8AC1AD08D396174DBC4E6D44EFACCFB104BA5E22@enfimail2.datcon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8AC1AD08D396174DBC4E6D44EFACCFB104BA5E22@enfimail2.datcon.co.uk> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , LTRU Working Group , Bill Fenner , Doug Ewell , dromasca@avaya.com, kessler@cisco.com Subject: [Ltru] Re: MIB textual conventions for Uri and LangTag X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 02:38:09PM -0000, David McWalter wrote a message of 19 lines which said: > For information, the Uri and LangTag MIB textual conventions have been > published. Thanks again to all who helped and commented. > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5017.txt (Uri, Uri255, Uri1024) > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5131.txt (LangTag) 5131 is not even in ftp://ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc-index.txt yet! _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 17 14:41:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4Lq6-0005UH-FW; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:41:22 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J4INZ-0008Ce-Eo for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:59:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4INZ-0008CW-4q for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:59:41 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4INY-0006aN-P2 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:59:41 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Dec 2007 07:59:39 -0800 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lBHFxeUT006035; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:59:40 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id lBHFxU9P020741; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:59:39 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-21c.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.176]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:59:32 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:59:30 -0800 Message-ID: <6EE7932CC71C8D49A20C0E639BCD216503132F11@xmb-sjc-21c.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20071217152618.GA16220@nic.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: MIB textual conventions for Uri and LangTag Thread-Index: AchAwUJKR6pz910sQUitjFUmKqT8UAABGcDg From: "Andy Kessler (kessler)" To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" , "David McWalter" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Dec 2007 15:59:32.0477 (UTC) FILETIME=[D02352D0:01C840C5] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1066; t=1197907180; x=1198771180; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=kessler@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Andy=20Kessler=20(kessler)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20MIB=20textual=20conventions=20for=20Uri =20and=20LangTag |Sender:=20; bh=cYEV/A6SODzV3RZRQPu+n3dGVrZsk68ARKO7ly19LX4=; b=mmfn+98cmGdDXOKnFeRSU2ZTalxsghtloQdg8BQz1qpZX2BKWPRR7sUCat hLsJIMPUSv2m/Wq9fgSS1QeLtzCRFjlHC/ZM04un48Ra7x4udLeIKbvBJe9t wPDVcyi3Zm; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=kessler@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:41:21 -0500 Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , LTRU Working Group , Bill Fenner , Doug Ewell , dromasca@avaya.com Subject: [Ltru] RE: MIB textual conventions for Uri and LangTag X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Yes, the index seems to be broken. The on the ietf web site says that it was updated Dec 16 but it is missing a whole bunch of=20 stuff:=20 http://www.ietf.org/iesg/1rfc_index.txt=20 Andy > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]=20 > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:26 AM > To: David McWalter > Cc: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group; Bill Fenner;=20 > dromasca@avaya.com; Juergen Schoenwaelder; Andy Kessler=20 > (kessler); Doug Ewell > Subject: Re: MIB textual conventions for Uri and LangTag >=20 > On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 02:38:09PM -0000, David McWalter=20 > wrote a message of 19 lines which said: >=20 > > For information, the Uri and LangTag MIB textual=20 > conventions have been=20 > > published. Thanks again to all who helped and commented. > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5017.txt (Uri, Uri255, Uri1024)=20 > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5131.txt (LangTag) >=20 > 5131 is not even in=20 > ftp://ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc-index.txt yet!=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 18 10:22:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4eGl-0001pD-UP; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:22:07 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J4eGl-0001p3-6F for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:22:07 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4eGk-0001ov-SH for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:22:06 -0500 Received: from mta15.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4eGk-0006IY-FL for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:22:06 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071218152201.DXVG20056.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:22:01 -0500 Message-ID: <008d01c84189$bca19450$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 07:22:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Subject: [Ltru] Re: LTRU Milestones past due X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > March? (!!) That should definitely be on the safe side. I think we're > close now to putting the document out. The major issues appear to be > resolved. We have some word-smithing to do. Actually, ISO 639-3/RA has just announced on their home page (http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/) that their second review period has just ended, that the results are scheduled to be announced in mid-January, and that the next review period will be a year from now. Considering the direct impact these results have on draft-4645bis, and considering how long we've waited already, I suggest we wait until the changes are announced in January and I can reflect them in a draft-04, which I hope will then be ready for WG Last Call. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 21 16:26:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5pNV-0004VO-IF; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:25:57 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J5pNU-0004VE-Vt for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:25:56 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5pNU-0004Q8-Kb for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:25:56 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5pNS-0006U0-2d for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:25:54 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J5pNR-00057w-GK for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:25:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:25:53 -0500 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20071221212553.GA17627@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Here's some more wording changes for 4.1, embedded in the change I suggested before. Scripsi: > It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to tag an > encompassed language using the subtag for its macrolanguage. > However, the Macrolanguage field doesn't define what the > relationship is between the encompassed language and its > macrolanguage, nor does it define how languages encompassed by the > same macrolanguage are related to each other. In some cases, In > some cases, one of the encompassed languages serves as a standard > form for the entire macrolanguage and is frequently identified > with it; in other cases there is no dominant language, and the > macrolanguage simply serves as a cover term for the entire group. Remove one instance of "In some cases,", obviously. My bad. > Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching > or language negotiation. For example, the information that 'sr' > (Serbian) and 'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses > a closer relation between those languages than between, say, > 'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian). It is valid to use the > subtag of the encompassed language or of the macrolanguage to > form language tags. However, many matching applications will > not be aware of the relationship between the languages. Care in > selecting which subtags are used is crucial to interoperability. > > In general, use the most specific tag. However, where the > macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a dominant > encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag > specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary > to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from the > dominant language variety. Add: Macrolanguages and encompassed languages affected by this issue include: Arabic 'ar' Standard Arabic 'arb' Konkani (macrolanguage) 'kok' Konkani (individual language) 'knn' Malay (macrolanguage) 'ms' Malay (individual language) 'mly' Swahili (macrolanguage) 'sw' Swahili (individual language) 'swh' Uzbek 'uz' Northern Uzbek 'uzn' Chinese 'zh' Mandarin Chinese 'cmn' > > In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special > consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most > languages having 'zh' as a macrolanguage (and because historically > subtags for the various encompassed languages were not available), > languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used > either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. > This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully > applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks > in language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' > has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm > to fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" > without losing the script and region information (even though > the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). -- There are three kinds of people in the world: John Cowan those who can count, cowan@ccil.org and those who can't. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 21 16:54:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5pp1-0006XS-1B; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:54:23 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J5poz-0006PH-Nc for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:54:21 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5poz-0006LA-7n for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:54:21 -0500 Received: from rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com ([207.126.228.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5poy-0002lb-QS for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:54:21 -0500 Received: from [10.72.77.52] (snvvpn2-10-72-77-c52.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.77.52]) by rsmtp1.corp.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.rout) with ESMTP id lBLLs7UM090780; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:54:07 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kvx6KkvcOufLHZSWWkgMc72Dwaocfslg+dHw9T7i7Ery/R3swSITXOIjV4Yvb5R2 Message-ID: <476C35FF.9080701@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:54:07 -0800 From: Addison Phillips User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071221212553.GA17627@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071221212553.GA17627@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -15.0 (---------------) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > Here's some more wording changes for 4.1, embedded in the change I > suggested before. > > > Remove one instance of "In some cases,", obviously. My bad. Already done in the editor's copy. > > Add: > > Macrolanguages and encompassed languages affected by this issue > include: I made it say "The pairs of macro and encompassed languages affected by this issue when this document was published were:" Saying it this way inoculates us against future Macrolanguage assignments, even though none may be forthcoming that fall into this category. > > Arabic 'ar' Standard Arabic 'arb' > Konkani (macrolanguage) 'kok' Konkani (individual language) 'knn' > Malay (macrolanguage) 'ms' Malay (individual language) 'mly' > Swahili (macrolanguage) 'sw' Swahili (individual language) 'swh' > Uzbek 'uz' Northern Uzbek 'uzn' > Chinese 'zh' Mandarin Chinese 'cmn' > Added this table. thanks, Addison -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is an architecture. It is not a feature. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 21 17:46:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5qdK-0001sn-Oy; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:46:22 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J5qdK-0001sf-0a for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:46:22 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5qdJ-0001sX-Mj for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:46:21 -0500 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.229]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5qdJ-0003x8-3m for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:46:21 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id n1so291647nzf.4 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:46:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=vYUk28yoFV1BsFyP4dG7GnbEUCu4L8Vomgi44sXMqGI=; b=j2WFEyLQ1zi36uvsx+q0AEerE3idqizmDFS7dKmz2dLLGCe0F/m5IODzg+VW6Knm7yp3UTC7xEvEH9Bg1yMs2gmKDLPa0m6d2sw6Z2XUxVOmVonU/5BrqJ+RPp52eEdUYmWCgaj4MDVQycz4MeXvrh6AP2gRsdB+MP1GHe0K6q4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=XRgmLrC656KWkX6bBKwQLP9YoyQEBT0iPAtCREZOP55j3wM4C0hC1WDS22qJv6D2eZUgX+dnnlWF+SIOHx2RvoNmS8apInOEaDRBt9xhzn4MVX2vypUZhf16GfIVViEPih4fdYdy9AS4H0euyPzAIhD41wgKIdilZzwNnfPBnfo= Received: by 10.143.16.9 with SMTP id t9mr980098wfi.107.1198277180241; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:46:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.8.19 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:46:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20712211446g13bbadcape22e79d0fa09626d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:46:20 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 In-Reply-To: <476C35FF.9080701@yahoo-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071221212553.GA17627@mercury.ccil.org> <476C35FF.9080701@yahoo-inc.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 24d4c39350589371 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1789298237==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1789298237== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3754_28152019.1198277180237" ------=_Part_3754_28152019.1198277180237 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline LGTM. ========== BTW, In John's signature there was: There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count, and those who can't. My other favorites are: - There are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary and those who don't. - There are 2 kinds of people: those who divide the world into 2 kinds of people, and those who don't. Mark On Dec 21, 2007 1:54 PM, Addison Phillips wrote: > John Cowan wrote: > > Here's some more wording changes for 4.1, embedded in the change I > > suggested before. > > > > > > Remove one instance of "In some cases,", obviously. My bad. > > Already done in the editor's copy. > > > > > Add: > > > > Macrolanguages and encompassed languages affected by this issue > > include: > > I made it say "The pairs of macro and encompassed languages affected by > this issue when this document was published were:" > > Saying it this way inoculates us against future Macrolanguage > assignments, even though none may be forthcoming that fall into this > category. > > > > > Arabic 'ar' Standard Arabic 'arb' > > Konkani (macrolanguage) 'kok' Konkani (individual language) > 'knn' > > Malay (macrolanguage) 'ms' Malay (individual language) > 'mly' > > Swahili (macrolanguage) 'sw' Swahili (individual language) > 'swh' > > Uzbek 'uz' Northern Uzbek 'uzn' > > Chinese 'zh' Mandarin Chinese 'cmn' > > > > Added this table. > > thanks, > > Addison > > -- > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc. > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > Internationalization is an architecture. > It is not a feature. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_3754_28152019.1198277180237 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline LGTM.

==========

BTW, In John's signature there was:

There are three kinds of people in the world:
those who can count,
and those who can't.

My other favorites are:
  • There are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary and those who don't.
  • There are 2 kinds of people: those who divide the world into 2 kinds of people, and those who don't.
Mark

On Dec 21, 2007 1:54 PM, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
John Cowan wrote:
> Here's some more wording changes for 4.1, embedded in the change I
> suggested before.
>
>
> Remove one instance of "In some cases,", obviously.  My bad.

Already done in the editor's copy.

>
> Add:
>
>         Macrolanguages and encompassed languages affected by this issue
>         include:

I made it say "The pairs of macro and encompassed languages affected by
this issue when this document was published were:"

Saying it this way inoculates us against future Macrolanguage
assignments, even though none may be forthcoming that fall into this
category.

>
>         Arabic 'ar'                     Standard Arabic 'arb'
>         Konkani (macrolanguage) 'kok'   Konkani (individual language) 'knn'
>         Malay (macrolanguage) 'ms'      Malay (individual language) 'mly'
>         Swahili (macrolanguage) 'sw'    Swahili (individual language) 'swh'
>         Uzbek 'uz'                      Northern Uzbek 'uzn'
>         Chinese 'zh'                    Mandarin Chinese 'cmn'
>

Added this table.

thanks,

Addison

--
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.


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Mark ------=_Part_3754_28152019.1198277180237-- --===============1789298237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1789298237==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 21 17:52:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5qjb-0001Mu-5K; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:52:51 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J5qja-0001MX-8K for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:52:50 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5qjZ-0001MI-U7 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:52:49 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5qjZ-0000aZ-LA for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:52:49 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J5qjV-00037k-C7; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:52:45 -0500 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:52:45 -0500 To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 Message-ID: <20071221225245.GE20323@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071221212553.GA17627@mercury.ccil.org> <476C35FF.9080701@yahoo-inc.com> <30b660a20712211446g13bbadcape22e79d0fa09626d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20712211446g13bbadcape22e79d0fa09626d@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > There are three kinds of people in the world: > those who can count, > and those who can't. That's just because you are viewing my .sig in HTML, with spaces collapsed and with a variable-width font, instead of monowidth as I (and God) intended. > - There are 2 kinds of people: those who divide the world into 2 kinds > of people, and those who don't. This I think is the original version of the snowclone (see http://snowclones.org ). -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Charles li reis, nostre emperesdre magnes, Set anz totz pleinz ad ested in Espagnes. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 21 18:52:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5rf2-0004Mm-AI; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:52:12 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J5rf1-0004Mf-Jv for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:52:11 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5rf1-0004MX-9Y for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:52:11 -0500 Received: from mta15.mail.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.77] helo=mta15.adelphia.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5rf0-0007F5-SQ for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:52:11 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta15.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.04 201-2131-123-105-20051025) with SMTP id <20071221235210.XKOW14392.mta15.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:52:10 -0500 Message-ID: <019601c8442c$82dd2540$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:52:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > Add: > > Macrolanguages and encompassed languages affected by this > issue > include: > > Arabic 'ar' Standard Arabic 'arb' > Konkani (macrolanguage) 'kok' Konkani (individual language) > 'knn' > Malay (macrolanguage) 'ms' Malay (individual language) > 'mly' > Swahili (macrolanguage) 'sw' Swahili (individual language) > 'swh' > Uzbek 'uz' Northern Uzbek 'uzn' > Chinese 'zh' Mandarin Chinese 'cmn' I'm OK with adding this as long as it does not present the impression that we are trying to second-guess, amend, or supersede anything about the macrolanguage assignments in ISO 639-3. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 22 11:39:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J67NN-00045f-Q9; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:39:01 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J67NM-0003zy-PI for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:39:00 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J67NM-0003x5-Az for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:39:00 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J67NK-00027Z-OC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:39:00 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J67Hf-0001II-Bz for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:33:07 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-126.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.126]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:33:07 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-126.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:33:07 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:25:58 +0100 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <019601c8442c$82dd2540$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-126.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > I'm OK with adding this as long as it does not present the impression=20 > that we are trying to second-guess, amend, or supersede anything about = > the macrolanguage assignments in ISO 639-3. +1 =20 BTW, if that part (what John wrote) is all 4646bis will say about Macrolanguages and matching my proposal to add "updates 4647" was overzealous, a new "MAY" isn't an "update". Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 23 17:49:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J6ZdW-0006zw-PN; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:49:34 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J6ZdV-0006xS-Ma for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:49:33 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J6ZdV-0006xK-C4 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:49:33 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J6ZdV-0006gm-2Q for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:49:33 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:49:32 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.117]) with mapi; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:49:32 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: John Cowan , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:49:26 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 Thread-Index: AchEGBeYVm4id7BPTZKxWkVQTv7lCwBnTBbw Message-ID: References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071221212553.GA17627@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20071221212553.GA17627@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Add: > > Macrolanguages and encompassed languages affected by this issue > include: > > Arabic 'ar' Standard Arabic 'arb' > Konkani (macrolanguage) 'kok' Konkani (individual language) > 'knn' > Malay (macrolanguage) 'ms' Malay (individual language) > 'mly' > Swahili (macrolanguage) 'sw' Swahili (individual language) > 'swh' > Uzbek 'uz' Northern Uzbek 'uzn' > Chinese 'zh' Mandarin Chinese 'cmn' Thanks for taking note of this. I trust this reflects that you reviewed the= analysis I sent on 11/29 and agree that this is the right set of cases to = mention in this regard. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 23 18:24:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J6aBb-0007wL-Il; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:24:47 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J6aBa-0007wF-N8 for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:24:46 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J6aBa-0007w7-By for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:24:46 -0500 Received: from maila.microsoft.com ([131.107.115.212] helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J6aBZ-0007Nn-VG for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:24:46 -0500 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 15:24:45 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.56.116.117]) with mapi; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 15:24:45 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 15:24:40 -0800 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 Thread-Index: AchELITGR15BtccfSLu52HHjR8MbaQBirffQ Message-ID: References: <019601c8442c$82dd2540$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <019601c8442c$82dd2540$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1616216385==" Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1616216385== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBGcm9tOiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsIFttYWlsdG86ZGV3ZWxsQHJvYWRydW5uZXIuY29tXQ0KDQoNCj4g SSdtIE9LIHdpdGggYWRkaW5nIHRoaXMgYXMgbG9uZyBhcyBpdCBkb2VzIG5vdCBwcmVzZW50IHRo ZSBpbXByZXNzaW9uDQo+IHRoYXQgd2UgYXJlIHRyeWluZyB0byBzZWNvbmQtZ3Vlc3MsIGFtZW5k LCBvciBzdXBlcnNlZGUgYW55dGhpbmcgYWJvdXQNCj4gdGhlIG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UgYXNzaWdu bWVudHMgaW4gSVNPIDYzOS0zLg0KDQpJdCBkb2Vzbid0IGFtZW5kOyBzaW5jZSBpdCBkb2Vzbid0 IGNoYW5nZSB3aGF0IDYzOS0zIHNheXMsIGl0IGRvZXNuJ3Qgc3VwZXJzZWRlLiBJJ20gbm90IHN1 cmUgd2hhdCB3b3VsZCBjb25zdGl0dXRlIHNlY29uZC1ndWVzc2luZyBvdGhlciB0aGFuIGltcG9z aW5nIGFuIGludGVycHJldGF0aW9uIGJleW9uZCB3aGF0IDYzOS0zIHByb3ZpZGVzLCBhbmQgSSBk b24ndCB0aGluayBpdCBkb2VzIHRoYXQuIEl0J3Mgc2ltcGx5IGEgY29tbWVudGFyeSBvbiB0aG9z ZSBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIGxhbmd1YWdlcyBhbmQsIGluIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIsIG9uIHRoZSB1c2FnZSBv ZiB0aGUgY29ycmVzcG9uZGluZyB0YWcsIG5hbWVseSwNCg0KPiAgICAgICAgIHRoZQ0KPiAgICAg ICAgIG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnIGhhcyBiZWVuIGhpc3RvcmljYWxseSB1c2VkIHRvIGRlbm90 ZSBhIGRvbWluYW50DQo+ICAgICAgICAgZW5jb21wYXNzZWQgbGFuZ3VhZ2UsDQoNCkluIG90aGVy IHdvcmRzLCBiZWNhdXNlIChlLmcuKSB6aCBoYXMgaGlzdG9yaWNhbGx5IGJlZW4gdXNlZCAocHJl ZG9taW5hbnRseSkgdG8gZGVub3RlIHRoZSBkb21pbmFudCBlbmNvbXBhc3NlZCBsYW5ndWFnZSwg TWFuZGFyaW4sIHRoZSBtb3JlLXNwZWNpZmljIHN1YnRhZyBjbW4gc2hvdWxkbid0IGJlIHVzZWQg aW4gZ2VuZXJhbCAoYnV0IGNhbiBiZSBpZiB0aGVyZSdzIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgbmVlZCB0byBkaWZm ZXJlbnRpYXRlIGZyb20geXVlLCBldGMuKS4NCg0KDQpUaGVyZSdzIG9uZSBvdGhlciBjbGFzcyBv ZiBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlcyAtLSB0aGlzIHdpdGggYSBzaW5nbGUgbWVtYmVyIC0tIHRoYXQgSSB0 aGluayBuZWVkcyBzb21lIGF0dGVudGlvbjoNCg0KNC4gTWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZSBJRCB1c2VkIGlu IElDVCwgPjEgZG9taW5hbnQgdmFyaWV0eQ0KZmFzICAgICAoRTE0OiB1bmNsZWFyKSA9IGZhDQog ICAgICAgIHBlcyA9IFBlcnNpYW4gKENMRFIgYW5kIFdpbmRvd3MgdXNlIGZhX0lSKQ0KICAgICAg ICBwcnMgPSBEYXJpIChDTERSIHVzZXMgZmFfQUYsIFdpbmRvd3MgdXNlcyBwcnNfQUYpDQoNClRo aXMgaXMgb25lIG1vcmUgY2FzZSBpbiB3aGljaCBhIG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UgSUQgaGFzIGJlZW4g dXNlZCB3aXRoIG9uZSBlbmNvbXBhc3NlZCwgZGV2ZWxvcGVkIGxhbmd1YWdlLCBQZXJzaWFuOyBi dXQgbW9yZSByZWNlbnRseSBpdCBoYXMgY29tZSB0byBiZSB1c2VkIF9pbiBzb21lIGltcGxlbWVu dGF0aW9uc18gZm9yIGFub3RoZXIgZW5jb21wYXNzZWQsIGRldmVsb3BlZCAodGhvdWdoIGxlc3Mg c28pIGxhbmd1YWdlLiBJJ20gbm90IG5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IHN1Z2dlc3RpbmcgaXQgbmVlZHMgdG8g YmUgbWVudGlvbmVkIGluIHRoZSB0ZXh0IG9mIHRoZSBSRkMuIEkgZG8gcXVlc3Rpb24gd2hldGhl ciB1c2luZyBmYSBmb3IgRGFyaSBpcyB0aGUgYmVzdCBjaG9pY2UuIEJ1dCBpZiBpdCdzIHJlY29t bWVuZGVkIHRoYXQgZmEgYmUgdXNlZCBmb3IgUGVyc2lhbiB3aGlsZSBwcnMgYmUgdXNlZCB1c2Vk IGZvciBEYXJpLCB0aGVuIGl0IGp1c3QgbWlnaHQgYmUgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgdG8gYWRkIHRoaXMg Y2FzZSBpbiB0aGUgbGlzdCBpbiB0aGUgUkZDLg0KDQoNCg0KUGV0ZXINCg== --===============1616216385== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1616216385==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 23 18:48:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J6aYC-0002yH-TQ; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:48:08 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J6aYB-0002y5-VM for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:48:07 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J6aYB-0002xx-L0 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:48:07 -0500 Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J6aYB-0007rW-D9 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:48:07 -0500 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J6aY6-0005Hg-30; Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:48:02 -0500 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:48:02 -0500 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 Message-ID: <20071223234802.GC18068@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20071207215557.GD3346@mercury.ccil.org> <20071221212553.GA17627@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > Thanks for taking note of this. I trust this reflects that you reviewed > the analysis I sent on 11/29 and agree that this is the right set of > cases to mention in this regard. Indeed. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led. And through the air. I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. --Bilbo _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 25 14:25:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J7FP9-0003YS-B3; Tue, 25 Dec 2007 14:25:31 -0500 Received: from ltru by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J7FP7-0003YK-FR for ltru-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Dec 2007 14:25:29 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J7FP7-0003YC-4Z for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Dec 2007 14:25:29 -0500 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J7FP6-0005lY-PW for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Dec 2007 14:25:29 -0500 Received: from DGBP7M81 ([76.167.184.182]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with SMTP id <20071225192527.DLUL29909.mta11.adelphia.net@DGBP7M81> for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2007 14:25:27 -0500 Message-ID: <009601c8472b$e7af4b90$6601a8c0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 11:25:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Subject: [Ltru] Re: Review of 4646bis-10, macrolanguages in section 4.1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: >> I'm OK with adding this as long as it does not present the impression >> that we are trying to second-guess, amend, or supersede anything >> about the macrolanguage assignments in ISO 639-3. > > It doesn't amend; since it doesn't change what 639-3 says, it doesn't > supersede. I'm not sure what would constitute second-guessing other > than imposing an interpretation beyond what 639-3 provides, and I > don't think it does that. It's simply a commentary on those > particular languages and, in particular, on the usage of the > corresponding tag, namely, > >> the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a dominant >> encompassed language, If you're fairly sure that a list that says "here are the subtags derived from 639-3 that you should use when you have a choice, and here are the ones you shouldn't, and it's all based on the judgment of LTRU and not ISO 639-3/RA" won't give newcomers the impression that we are trying to second-guess, amend, or supersede, then I won't worry about it. -- Doug Ewell * Fullerton, California, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru