From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 4 18:44:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116C13A68EC; Fri, 4 Apr 2008 18:44:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C3C3A6B3F for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:21:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.487 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.487 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zp0iPtyUmKQD for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ag-out-0708.google.com (ag-out-0708.google.com [72.14.246.246]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F3C928C1CC for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ag-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id 9so164169agd.12 for ; Fri, 04 Apr 2008 17:20:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; bh=d9O50hptL2VGzuCKC4MK9RoMy7yxaNR4nGUCA4Klg3U=; b=WqjlVrTJHLQImE+KvFNm2vYhDX/nidEGMHDtBbvGp2vCU2dx4bsE3+avfoXMhrtld5RY/cJkj4QDhPg/HSIsGdkUWB0UBtNcvLvpjIGQ/sWGObuGVgzwC9YeWI3P5mnTk4C1sfkhX8m4ZFyt9gz0Ux7l2zeC1PoNZlJdfAbcK1Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=R7Zg0vx02uN4NghtpbTQOCQN/QUnfz1o27Twxoi4h6bk7hinuXc8tLKhJWLwZE6+RomSz8kA7i1MhRscqK6VJOGs08VFSksVSIJ3SyJtnLu0KbtjGycqiGlAo6+wfYVu5HFEFcr6tWfhzLsyCzDgIhM15DTTnf2QgWAw6dh4HpQ= Received: by 10.150.155.1 with SMTP id c1mr957359ybe.85.1207354818078; Fri, 04 Apr 2008 17:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.229.9 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804041720o690dd17j44cae49d960d73d3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:20:18 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: a0168393a737f5a8 To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:44:19 -0700 Subject: [Ltru] FYI: Unicode 5.1 Released X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2081971211==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2081971211== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8830_22593360.1207354818082" ------=_Part_8830_22593360.1207354818082 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rick McGowan Date: Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 3:54 PM Subject: Unicode 5.1 Released To: unicode@unicode.org The Unicode Consortium is pleased to announce the release of Unicode 5.1. This release contains over 100,000 characters, and provides significant additions and improvements that extend text processing for software worldwide. Some of the key features are: increased security in data exchange, significant character additions for Indic and South East Asian scripts, expanded identifier specifications for Indic and Arabic scripts, improvements in the processing of Tamil and other Indic scripts, linebreaking conformance relaxation for HTML and other protocols, strengthened normalization stability, new case pair stability, plus others given below. The Version 5.1.0 data files and documentation are final and posted on the Unicode site. In addition to updated existing files, implementers will find new test data files (for example, for linebreaking) and new XML data files that encapsulate all of the Unicode character properties. For details, see the page for Unicode 5.1.0 at http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.1.0/. A major feature of Unicode 5.1.0 is the enabling of ideographic variation sequences. These sequences allow standardized representation of glyphic variants needed for Japanese, Chinese, and Korean text. The first registered collection, from Adobe Systems, is now available at http://www.unicode.org/ivd/. Unicode 5.1 contains significant changes to properties and behaviorial specifications. Several important property definitions were extended, improving linebreaking for Polish and Portuguese hyphenation. The Unicode Text Segmentation Algorithms, covering sentences, words, and characters, were greatly enhanced to improve the processing of Tamil and other Indic languages. The Unicode Normalization Algorithm now defines stabilized strings and provides guidelines for buffering. Standardized named sequences are added for Lithuanian, and provisional named sequences for Tamil. Unicode 5.1.0 adds 1,624 newly encoded characters. These additions include characters required for Malayalam and Myanmar and important individual characters such as Latin capital sharp s for German. Version 5.1 extends support for languages in Africa, India, Indonesia, Myanmar, and Vietnam, with the addition of the Cham, Lepcha, Ol Chiki, Rejang, Saurashtra, Sundanese, and Vai scripts. Scholarly support includes important editorial punctuation marks, as well as the Carian, Lycian, and Lydian scripts, and the Phaistos disc symbols. Other new symbol sets include dominoes, Mahjong, dictionary punctuation marks, and math additions. This latest version of the Unicode Standard has exactly the same character assignments as ISO/IEC 10646:2003 plus Amendments 1 through 4. The Unicode Collation Algorithm (UCA), the core standard for sorting all text, is also being updated at the same time (see http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/). The major changes in UCA include coverage of all Unicode 5.1 characters, tightened conformance for canonical equivalence, clearer definitions of internationalized search and matching, specifications of parameters for customizing collation, and definitions of collation folding. There are also important clarifications on the use of contractions (such as "ch" in Slovak) in collation. The next version of the Unicode locale project (CLDR) is also being prepared on the basis of Unicode 5.1, and is now open for public data submission (see http://www.unicode.org/cldr/). -- Mark -- Mark ------=_Part_8830_22593360.1207354818082 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rick McGowan <rick@unicode.org>
Date: Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Subject: Unicode 5.1 Released
To: unicode@unicode.org


The Unicode Consortium is pleased to announce the release of Unicode 5.1.
This release contains over 100,000 characters, and provides significant
additions and improvements that extend text processing for software
worldwide. Some of the key features are: increased security in data
exchange, significant character additions for Indic and South East Asian
scripts, expanded identifier specifications for Indic and Arabic scripts,
improvements in the processing of Tamil and other Indic scripts,
linebreaking conformance relaxation for HTML and other protocols,
strengthened normalization stability, new case pair stability,
plus others given below.

The Version 5.1.0 data files and documentation are final and posted on the
Unicode site. In addition to updated existing files, implementers will
find new test data files (for example, for linebreaking) and new XML data
files that encapsulate all of the Unicode character properties. For
details, see the page for Unicode 5.1.0 at
http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.1.0/.

A major feature of Unicode 5.1.0 is the enabling of ideographic variation
sequences. These sequences allow standardized representation of glyphic
variants needed for Japanese, Chinese, and Korean text. The first
registered collection, from Adobe Systems, is now available at
http://www.unicode.org/ivd/.

Unicode 5.1 contains significant changes to properties and behaviorial
specifications. Several important property definitions were extended,
improving linebreaking for Polish and Portuguese hyphenation. The Unicode
Text Segmentation Algorithms, covering sentences, words, and characters,
were greatly enhanced to improve the processing of Tamil and other Indic
languages. The Unicode Normalization Algorithm now defines stabilized
strings and provides guidelines for buffering. Standardized named sequences
are added for Lithuanian, and provisional named sequences for Tamil.

Unicode 5.1.0 adds 1,624 newly encoded characters. These additions include
characters required for Malayalam and Myanmar and important individual
characters such as Latin capital sharp s for German. Version 5.1 extends
support for languages in Africa, India, Indonesia, Myanmar, and Vietnam,
with the addition of the Cham, Lepcha, Ol Chiki, Rejang, Saurashtra,
Sundanese, and Vai scripts. Scholarly support includes important editorial
punctuation marks, as well as the Carian, Lycian, and Lydian scripts, and
the Phaistos disc symbols. Other new symbol sets include dominoes, Mahjong,
dictionary punctuation marks, and math additions. This latest version of
the Unicode Standard has exactly the same character assignments as ISO/IEC
10646:2003 plus Amendments 1 through 4.

The Unicode Collation Algorithm (UCA), the core standard for sorting all
text, is also being updated at the same time (see
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/). The major changes in UCA include
coverage of all Unicode 5.1 characters, tightened conformance for canonical
equivalence, clearer definitions of internationalized search and matching,
specifications of parameters for customizing collation, and definitions of
collation folding. There are also important clarifications on the use of
contractions (such as "ch" in Slovak) in collation.

The next version of the Unicode locale project (CLDR) is also being
prepared on the basis of Unicode 5.1, and is now open for public data
submission (see http://www.unicode.org/cldr/).





--
Mark



--
Mark ------=_Part_8830_22593360.1207354818082-- --===============2081971211== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2081971211==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 10 12:52:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A063A6A4B; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:52:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F553A6A4B for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:52:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id myo1Q709otMZ for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ik-out-1112.google.com (ik-out-1112.google.com [66.249.90.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C02E23A6991 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ik-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id c28so136765ika.5 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; bh=ILKmT0l+h8ym+t+GtHf8ue+hti5RYwPiwozPD40lmKU=; b=UFz4OMYIrG6MRdFF6iXjPy9tPUgEnDAtt7XCWSx8DuoVlEgm79LCNE7tXLQyuRArlxdJd8S2sdKE5F3z+uetmE+wbWV2AeJ5OUSnGNs7OJ2H/16K2qhM6Xlvdtis9ElnVogfjRNJi/5uO3T8BshVEJJHD0TAqTBzsd7q0nZb8cc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=Xu7IJBpPXb6gKw0bEiGQA/WCYIAkf15iasFHVtveBX/8adMuMI51wyzxvpw2bZzEtQz4LjhI2sCqrv3LXPmeFqD82iU9IMtFOqu3SJFwnWlazzWPG1XgzGAJsIYX9ba6apinmWsHlAqY5HecKdA60iuKGB6g1QbhuhKfj1Nw+CQ= Received: by 10.150.215.17 with SMTP id n17mr2267596ybg.14.1207857138283; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.229.9 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:52:18 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "LTRU Working Group" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 073c4b79a042b0fa Subject: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0149720570==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0149720570== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6402_27237947.1207857138268" ------=_Part_6402_27237947.1207857138268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I went through all the pending comments to see which didn't have objections raised on the list. The only open substantive issue I think we have left is about whether to change the following lines: The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the registry. The field MAY be added to records according to the rules in Section 3.3 (Maintenance of the Registry) . *(note: we don't have a similar phrase for Deprecated)* Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. Here is my reasoning. We can't guarantee complete stability over time. Whenever Deprecated or Preferred-Value are added, it changes the canonical form; or if the target of a Preferred-Value is itself deprecated. Currently if a subtag is deprecated in a source standard in favor of another, nothing special needs to be done unless: 1. there is a collision - the same subtag with a different meaning (like CS), OR 2. the preferred subtag is an older deprecated code (eg BU => MM => BU), OR 3. the target of the Preferred-Value itself becomes deprecated (we want to resolve it so that users don't have to). In the first 2 cases, we are forced to use a "special" code, eg change MM to 104. That's perfectly fine in the case of collisions (#1). However, it is completely unnecessary in the case of older deprecated codes. So my proposal is to change the above lines to drop the first one, and change the second to: Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', and 'Added' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. Values in the 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed unless the tag or subtag in the Preferred-Value field is itself deprecated, or if a deprecation is reversed in one of the source standards. -- Mark ------=_Part_6402_27237947.1207857138268 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I went through all the pending comments to see which didn't have objections raised on the list. The only open substantive issue I think we have left is about whether to change the following lines:

The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the registry. The field MAY be added to records according to the rules in Section 3.3 (Maintenance of the Registry).

(note: we don't have a similar phrase for Deprecated)

Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time.

Here is my reasoning. We can't guarantee complete stability over time. Whenever Deprecated or Preferred-Value are added, it changes the canonical form; or if the target of a Preferred-Value is itself deprecated. Currently if a subtag is deprecated in a source standard in favor of another, nothing special needs to be done unless:
  1. there is a collision - the same subtag with a different meaning (like CS), OR
  2. the preferred subtag is an older deprecated code (eg BU => MM => BU), OR
  3. the target of the Preferred-Value itself becomes deprecated (we want to resolve it so that users don't have to).
In the first 2 cases, we are forced to use a "special" code, eg change MM to 104. That's perfectly fine in the case of collisions (#1). However, it is completely unnecessary in the case of older deprecated codes. So my proposal is to change the above lines to drop the first one, and change the second to:

Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', and 'Added' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. Values in the 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed unless the tag or subtag in the Preferred-Value field is itself deprecated, or if a deprecation is reversed in one of the source standards.

--
Mark ------=_Part_6402_27237947.1207857138268-- --===============0149720570== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0149720570==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 10 16:32:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0634F3A6A61; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:32:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01F43A6D1E for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:32:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gm1YYyVVFDsx for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.188]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDF73A6BE3 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id e27so477776rng.18 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:32:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=7seBLe/zN9ioNSQnQKmimYyxrvPS8vfSg5Az7B83yDg=; b=l9uvTRwlVFRrHzZe6JBi9lLaje9+Hly19d8sn4BbvVBfzzNDwuOLHIoDRerKQJo+Sru1/dYXJVQtArwcl2TkHaw2aZGO3plQmgnUiP6Bhd0cpeg7KWLbdwuoMYgTtai0cWPvWBHZh/pX6g9jHGNBcbL4ikx1DG44oRMauRoYm0E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=lO0kaC+9lsY200SLSCEdtQezA9mnnXBqCPaZrACHRJ0A+2u0A0wv4G3V3IOd3ibH/h3E8B2a8rYfHBIW1LJKebaNZiWQxDOyuNWaX3+rePcs2l/epaIhjl29u2Vj8IwabAaZQd5hfzSeoE0F3eIq3EnEQy+V/mxMDW7DTqqRMq4= Received: by 10.151.42.12 with SMTP id u12mr2494961ybj.97.1207870365758; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.229.9 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804101632g7f00ab98r70d2215c220f5c6a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:32:40 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "LTRU Working Group" In-Reply-To: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4c1eded79bdb0364 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1970291605==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1970291605== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7211_65991.1207870365754" ------=_Part_7211_65991.1207870365754 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, not completely the last. Addison and I are trying to wrap this all up, and ran across one other. Before forwarding a new registration to IANA, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST ensure that values in the 'Subtag' field match case according to the description in Section 3.1. => Before forwarding a new registration to IANA, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST ensure that values in the 'Subtag' field match case according to the description in Section 3.1, and that all other requirements of this specification are followed. Rationale. It has been implicit in all of our discussions and in the document that the LSR must follow all of the policies in the document are followed, *not just casing*. However, it isn't really explicit in the document, and should be. This is a minimal change to that end (although other wording would be possible). Mark On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Mark Davis wrote: > I went through all the pending comments to see which didn't have > objections raised on the list. The only open substantive issue I think we > have left is about whether to change the following lines: > > The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the > registry. The field MAY be added to records according to the rules in > Section 3.3 (Maintenance of the Registry) > . > > *(note: we don't have a similar phrase for Deprecated)* > > Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and > 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over > time. > > Here is my reasoning. We can't guarantee complete stability over time. > Whenever Deprecated or Preferred-Value are added, it changes the canonical > form; or if the target of a Preferred-Value is itself deprecated. Currently > if a subtag is deprecated in a source standard in favor of another, nothing > special needs to be done unless: > > 1. there is a collision - the same subtag with a different meaning > (like CS), OR > 2. the preferred subtag is an older deprecated code (eg BU => MM => > BU), OR > 3. the target of the Preferred-Value itself becomes deprecated (we > want to resolve it so that users don't have to). > > In the first 2 cases, we are forced to use a "special" code, eg change MM > to 104. That's perfectly fine in the case of collisions (#1). However, it is > completely unnecessary in the case of older deprecated codes. So my proposal > is to change the above lines to drop the first one, and change the second > to: > > Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', and 'Added' MUST NOT be > changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. Values in the > 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed unless the tag or > subtag in the Preferred-Value field is itself deprecated, or if a > deprecation is reversed in one of the source standards. > > -- > Mark -- Mark ------=_Part_7211_65991.1207870365754 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, not completely the last. Addison and I are trying to wrap this all up, and ran across one other.

Before forwarding a new registration to IANA, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST ensure that values in the 'Subtag' field match case according to the description in Section 3.1.
=>

Before forwarding a new registration to IANA, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST ensure that values in the 'Subtag' field match case according to the description in Section 3.1, and that all other requirements of this specification are followed.

Rationale. It has been implicit in all of our discussions and in the document that the LSR must follow all of the policies in the document are followed, not just casing. However, it isn't really explicit in the document, and should be. This is a minimal change to that end (although other wording would be possible).

Mark

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote:
I went through all the pending comments to see which didn't have objections raised on the list. The only open substantive issue I think we have left is about whether to change the following lines:

The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the registry. The field MAY be added to records according to the rules in Section 3.3 (Maintenance of the Registry).

(note: we don't have a similar phrase for Deprecated)

Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time.

Here is my reasoning. We can't guarantee complete stability over time. Whenever Deprecated or Preferred-Value are added, it changes the canonical form; or if the target of a Preferred-Value is itself deprecated. Currently if a subtag is deprecated in a source standard in favor of another, nothing special needs to be done unless:
  1. there is a collision - the same subtag with a different meaning (like CS), OR
  2. the preferred subtag is an older deprecated code (eg BU => MM => BU), OR
  3. the target of the Preferred-Value itself becomes deprecated (we want to resolve it so that users don't have to).
In the first 2 cases, we are forced to use a "special" code, eg change MM to 104. That's perfectly fine in the case of collisions (#1). However, it is completely unnecessary in the case of older deprecated codes. So my proposal is to change the above lines to drop the first one, and change the second to:

Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', and 'Added' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. Values in the 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed unless the tag or subtag in the Preferred-Value field is itself deprecated, or if a deprecation is reversed in one of the source standards.

--
Mark



--
Mark ------=_Part_7211_65991.1207870365754-- --===============1970291605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1970291605==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 11 00:31:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2FCE3A6E02; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 00:31:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6812A3A6E02 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 00:31:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.158 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.158 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.048, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YUGUSVu6wZUo for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 00:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5FB3A679C for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 00:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m3B7VP1g009269 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:31:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 44fa_4ab10200_0799_11dd_81e7_0014221fa3c9; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:31:24 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:37316) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:26:40 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080411160645.0d35e7a0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:07:12 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <30b660a20804101632g7f00ab98r70d2215c220f5c6a@mail.gmail.co m> References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20804101632g7f00ab98r70d2215c220f5c6a@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org If Doug (and Michael) are fine with this change, I'm fine with it, too. Regards, Martin. At 08:32 08/04/11, Mark Davis wrote: >Ok, not completely the last. Addison and I are trying to wrap this all up, and ran across one other. > >Before forwarding a new registration to IANA, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST ensure that values in the 'Subtag' field match case according to the description in Section 3.1. >=> > >Before forwarding a new registration to IANA, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST ensure that values in the 'Subtag' field match case according to the description in Section 3.1, and that all other requirements of this specification are followed. > >Rationale. It has been implicit in all of our discussions and in the document that the LSR must follow all of the policies in the document are followed, not just casing. However, it isn't really explicit in the document, and should be. This is a minimal change to that end (although other wording would be possible). > >Mark > >On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote: >>I went through all the pending comments to see which didn't have objections raised on the list. The only open substantive issue I think we have left is about whether to change the following lines: >> >>The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the registry. The field MAY be added to records according to the rules in Section 3.3 (Maintenance of the Registry). >> >>(note: we don't have a similar phrase for Deprecated) >> >>Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. >> >>Here is my reasoning. We can't guarantee complete stability over time. Whenever Deprecated or Preferred-Value are added, it changes the canonical form; or if the target of a Preferred-Value is itself deprecated. Currently if a subtag is deprecated in a source standard in favor of another, nothing special needs to be done unless: >> * there is a collision - the same subtag with a different meaning (like CS), OR >> * the preferred subtag is an older deprecated code (eg BU => MM => BU), OR >> * the target of the Preferred-Value itself becomes deprecated (we want to resolve it so that users don't have to). >>In the first 2 cases, we are forced to use a "special" code, eg change MM to 104. That's perfectly fine in the case of collisions (#1). However, it is completely unnecessary in the case of older deprecated codes. So my proposal is to change the above lines to drop the first one, and change the second to: >> >>Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', and 'Added' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. Values in the 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed unless the tag or subtag in the Preferred-Value field is itself deprecated, or if a deprecation is reversed in one of the source standards. >> >>-- >>Mark > > > >-- >Mark >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 11 06:23:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32513A6E37; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:23:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCCD83A6846 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:23:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OgPiR1Zq7w4E for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7773F3A6D59 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JkJEj-00087r-Vc; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:24:14 -0400 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:24:13 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080411132413.GD28420@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', and 'Added' MUST NOT be > changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. Values in the > 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed unless the tag or > subtag in the Preferred-Value field is itself deprecated, or if a > deprecation is reversed in one of the source standards. +1 -- I now introduce Professor Smullyan, John Cowan who will prove to you that either cowan@ccil.org he doesn't exist or you don't exist, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan but you won't know which. --Melvin Fitting _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Apr 12 09:53:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD6123A6B07; Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:53:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217513A6B07 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:53:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9gaeCO+JMP-u for ; Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 224AB3A69AB for ; Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21349 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2008 16:53:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.36) with ESMTP; 12 Apr 2008 16:53:49 -0000 Message-ID: <001801c89cbd$c815c100$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:53:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; 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12 Apr 2008 16:55:45 -0000 Message-ID: <001a01c89cbe$0d818350$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:55:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyA8bWFyayBkb3QgZGF2aXMgYXQgaWN1IGRhc2ggcHJvamVjdCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3 cm90ZToKCj4gQmVmb3JlIGZvcndhcmRpbmcgYSBuZXcgcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uIHRvIElBTkEsIHRo ZSBMYW5ndWFnZSBTdWJ0YWcgCj4gUmV2aWV3ZXIgTVVTVCBlbnN1cmUgdGhhdCB2YWx1ZXMgaW4g dGhlICdTdWJ0YWcnIGZpZWxkIG1hdGNoIGNhc2UgCj4gYWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBkZXNjcmlw dGlvbiBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDMuMSwgYW5kIHRoYXQgYWxsIG90aGVyIAo+IHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBv ZiB0aGlzIHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24gYXJlIGZvbGxvd2VkLgo+Cj4gUmF0aW9uYWxlLiBJdCBoYXMg YmVlbiBpbXBsaWNpdCBpbiBhbGwgb2Ygb3VyIGRpc2N1c3Npb25zIGFuZCBpbiB0aGUgCj4gZG9j dW1lbnQgdGhhdCB0aGUgTFNSIG11c3QgZm9sbG93IGFsbCBvZiB0aGUgcG9saWNpZXMgaW4gdGhl IGRvY3VtZW50IAo+IFthcmUgZm9sbG93ZWRdLCAqbm90IGp1c3QgY2FzaW5nKi4gSG93ZXZlciwg aXQgaXNuJ3QgcmVhbGx5IGV4cGxpY2l0IAo+IGluIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCwgYW5kIHNob3VsZCBi ZS4gVGhpcyBpcyBhIG1pbmltYWwgY2hhbmdlIHRvIHRoYXQgZW5kIAo+IChhbHRob3VnaCBvdGhl ciB3b3JkaW5nIHdvdWxkIGJlIHBvc3NpYmxlKS4KCkFncmVlZC4gIFRoaXMgY2hhbmdlIGlzIHNo b3J0IGFuZCBoYXJtbGVzcy4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVT QSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8v d3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cu YWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxp c3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0 cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Apr 13 15:05:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CFB43A6ADE; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:05:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67CDF3A6B57 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:05:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.296, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mcMqNyq8DP+D for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E0B3A6C14 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:04:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=gBgFqCW/23WcxMlBLJNsfeys+j5rawgg1RL+4XDzx3SzXEdm/ec1ZKc+5SY1XdpC; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.85.144] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JlAKG-0005iq-MJ for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 18:05:29 -0400 Message-ID: <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:06:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8885d2a9c731cc89117b4d713e0eb392e29b29409bbbf21303b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.85.144 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:52 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Last open item > > I went through all the pending comments to see which didn't have objections > raised on the list. The only open substantive issue I think we have left is > about whether to change the following lines: > > The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the > registry. The field MAY be added to records according to the rules in > Section 3.3 (Maintenance of the > Registry) > . > > *(note: we don't have a similar phrase for Deprecated)* > > Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and > 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over > time. > > Here is my reasoning. We can't guarantee complete stability over time. > Whenever Deprecated or Preferred-Value are added, it changes the canonical > form; or if the target of a Preferred-Value is itself deprecated. Currently > if a subtag is deprecated in a source standard in favor of another, nothing > special needs to be done unless: > > 1. there is a collision - the same subtag with a different meaning > (like CS), OR > 2. the preferred subtag is an older deprecated code (eg BU => MM => > BU), OR > 3. the target of the Preferred-Value itself becomes deprecated (we > want to resolve it so that users don't have to). > > In the first 2 cases, we are forced to use a "special" code, eg change MM to > 104. That's perfectly fine in the case of collisions (#1). However, it is > completely unnecessary in the case of older deprecated codes. So my proposal > is to change the above lines to drop the first one, and change the second > to: > > Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', and 'Added' MUST NOT be > changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. Values in the > 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed unless the tag or > subtag in the Preferred-Value field is itself deprecated, or if a > deprecation is reversed in one of the source standards. > > -- > Mark I object to making this change. Case (1) is already prohibited in sections 3.4(10) and 3.6 of RFC 4646. Case (2) is already covered by 3.4(9) - but perhaps we should emphasize the optionality implied by the "MAY" in that clause, because generally, in the interest of stability, one would not want to put in a new preferred value. Case (3) is a non-problem. The "deprecated" in the record only refers to the status in the source standard, not the validity of the string as a language tag, as should be very clear from the first sentence of 3.4(0) Adopting this change would add instability without providing any value, and the cases cited as motivations are already covered by the RFC 4646 rules. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 14 08:15:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B624F28C322; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:15:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB0828C30A for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:15:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K24U7EMxyVlY for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D05A28C319 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 2so684121ywt.49 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:15:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=fPY/vWthU8T7CwhXpLzYPuXtZAujeMh2/cOzSzhWF+Q=; b=mfnw4bFk3RuiolZXux6FnMc/+eXP52abHb6TwmhDn5Mq+PLxCxx4QbCbFpereqpkultRoRSoyS6flTleLc+q7v64XhijzFf6MhPE3WTWskVLoKB3vlXi2u4kcXh8NV97CWP/kq1r6VCNkL0buo4Of8ny9dsnGqQ4G9DP1s7k2H0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=n6AxtcpFwXHO/pxpYujgrjnw7ZLHDa84hQVsWVNjlfEYBUlZsOUTqhhnVAUjz/BK2J5egeqQD1S+BwuWWhdTM+phF3bBMw2CUh3WBpEmS+3O185aFPZDB6rwyu04n3RMzyMPLFmhgoRxrmTU2tcS/CgYdFryBLj5AgmaUKpOIhM= Received: by 10.151.108.21 with SMTP id k21mr6212708ybm.244.1208186128081; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.229.9 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:15:27 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: f9566ef8f8e7277b Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1155367841==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1155367841== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18280_7801293.1208186128016" ------=_Part_18280_7801293.1208186128016 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > To: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:52 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] Last open item > > > > I went through all the pending comments to see which didn't have > objections > > raised on the list. The only open substantive issue I think we have left > is > > about whether to change the following lines: > > > > The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the > > registry. The field MAY be added to records according to the rules in > > Section 3.3 (Maintenance of the > > Registry)< > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#maintreg> > > . > > > > *(note: we don't have a similar phrase for Deprecated)* > > > > Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and > > 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable > over > > time. > > > > Here is my reasoning. We can't guarantee complete stability over time. > > Whenever Deprecated or Preferred-Value are added, it changes the > canonical > > form; or if the target of a Preferred-Value is itself deprecated. > Currently > > if a subtag is deprecated in a source standard in favor of another, > nothing > > special needs to be done unless: > > > > 1. there is a collision - the same subtag with a different meaning > > (like CS), OR > > 2. the preferred subtag is an older deprecated code (eg BU => MM => > > BU), OR > > 3. the target of the Preferred-Value itself becomes deprecated (we > > want to resolve it so that users don't have to). > > > > In the first 2 cases, we are forced to use a "special" code, eg change > MM to > > 104. That's perfectly fine in the case of collisions (#1). However, it > is > > completely unnecessary in the case of older deprecated codes. So my > proposal > > is to change the above lines to drop the first one, and change the > second > > to: > > > > Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', and 'Added' MUST NOT be > > changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. Values in the > > 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed unless the tag or > > subtag in the Preferred-Value field is itself deprecated, or if a > > deprecation is reversed in one of the source standards. > > > > -- > > Mark > > I object to making this change. Case (1) is already prohibited in > sections > 3.4(10) and 3.6 of RFC 4646. Understood. I was summing up the position, and did not request any change in #1. Note that I am talking about two different, interrelated fields: Deprecated, and Preferred-Value. > Case (2) is already covered by 3.4(9) - but > perhaps we should emphasize the optionality implied by the "MAY" in that > clause, because generally, in the interest of stability, one would not > want > to put in a new preferred value. Case 2 is not covered by 3.4(9), and the fix that I am recommending would change current text. 3.4(9) is: "Codes assigned by ISO 639-1 that do not conflict with existing two-letter primary language subtags and which have no corresponding three-letter primary defined in the registry are entered into the IANA registry as new records of type 'language'." I'm not sure how it applies to the cases I'm discussing, and it certainly doesn't apply to region codes. Let me start again. I'll apologize for being a bit long-winded, but I think it's important to have some specific examples. The situation I discuss in #2 is where there is a case like: *Initial State * Subtag: X Preferred-Value: Y Deprecated: 1989-01-01 ... Subtag: Y X and Y could be 'in' and 'id', OR 'BU' and 'MM', OR some script tag (no instances yet). Note that both X and Y are valid, both with the same meaning, and Y is preferred. *The change.* ISO restores X to being the correct tag, and deprecates Y. *Our response. * There are three courses of action we could take. B2 is in the current text (although not clearly -- see below). *(A) Revert to old tag *Subtag: X *[removed old Preferred-Value and Deprecated]* ... Subtag: Y * Preferred-Value: X* * Deprecated: 2010-01-01* *(B1) Make new tag (and fix recursion) *Subtag: X Preferred-Value: *Z* Deprecated: 1989-01-01 ... Subtag: Y *Preferred-Value: Z* * Deprecated: 2010-01-01* ... Subtag: Z Z will be of the form '666' for a region or 'zzzzz' for a language subtag. *(B2) Make new tag (require users to do recursion) * Subtag: X Preferred-Value: Y**** Deprecated: 1989-01-01 ... Subtag: Y * Preferred-Value: Z* * Deprecated: 2010-01-01* ... Subtag: Z Z will be of the form '666' for a region or 'zzzzz' for a language subtag. Note that in all of these cases both X and Y are still valid, both with the same meaning. If we do B1 or B2, we needlessly deviate from ISO, and are forced into using an new, non-ISO code for something that is perfectly reasonable. Why is this a good idea? We still have stability in *all* of these cases. All codes before and after any of these options are valid. The only difference is in the preferred form. In the case of A, we are closer to ISO; for B we pointlessly depart from ISO. And in case B2, we have the added disadvantage that if users don't do the recursion correctly, they will end up with incorrect preferred values. Moreover, the current text is not clear with regard to the difference between B1 and B2. - "If a tag or subtag has a 'Preferred-Value' field in its registry entry, then the value of that field SHOULD be used to form the language tag in preference to the tag or subtag in which the preferred value appears." (4.1(3)) - "Subtags of type 'Region' that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry)) MUST be replaced with their mapped value. Note: In rare cases, the mapped value will also have a Preferred-Value.". (4.4(1)) 4.1(3) doesn't mention the possibility of recursion. If the user doesn't realize that the registry doesn't already resolve the PV chains, he'll happily substitute Y for X and think he's done, not realizing that he has to go look at Y to see that it in turn should be replaced by Z. 4.4(1) does mention it, but could be clearer that the user must recurse. > Case (3) is a non-problem. The "deprecated" > in the record only refers to the status in the source standard, not the > validity of the string as a language tag, as should be very clear from the > first sentence of 3.4(0) I am talking about BOTH the Deprecated status and the Preferred-Value status, in all of my original message if you look back at it. These are distinct, yet intertwined. > > Adopting this change would add instability without providing any value, > and the cases cited as motivations are already covered by the RFC 4646 > rules. I disagree. Can you go into more detail -- with examples -- of how you think approach (A) would add instability with regard to codes? Because both codes X and Y are valid before and after any of these alternatives, the only instability that I think you might be referring to is the canonical form. But the canonical form is changing *all* of these cases: A, B1, and B2; Y is no longer the canonical form in any of them. I don't see why B2 is any "more" stable than A, not in any way that matters. As to the recursion, although it wouldn't apply in this case if we allow A, it does in other cases. And resolving the recursion for the user in the registry just prevents needless mistakes. > > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_18280_7801293.1208186128016 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:52 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] Last open item
>
> I went through all the pending comments to see which didn't have objections
> raised on the list. The only open substantive issue I think we have left is
> about whether to change the following lines:
>
> The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the
> registry. The field MAY be added to records according to the rules in
> Section 3.3 (Maintenance of the
> Registry)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#maintreg>
> .
>
> *(note: we don't have a similar phrase for Deprecated)*
>
> Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and
> 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over
> time.
>
> Here is my reasoning. We can't guarantee complete stability over time.
> Whenever Deprecated or Preferred-Value are added, it changes the canonical
> form; or if the target of a Preferred-Value is itself deprecated. Currently
> if a subtag is deprecated in a source standard in favor of another, nothing
> special needs to be done unless:
>
>    1. there is a collision - the same subtag with a different meaning
>    (like CS), OR
>    2. the preferred subtag is an older deprecated code (eg BU => MM =>
>    BU), OR
>    3. the target of the Preferred-Value itself becomes deprecated (we
>    want to resolve it so that users don't have to).
>
> In the first 2 cases, we are forced to use a "special" code, eg change MM to
> 104. That's perfectly fine in the case of collisions (#1). However, it is
> completely unnecessary in the case of older deprecated codes. So my proposal
> is to change the above lines to drop the first one, and change the second
> to:
>
> Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', and 'Added' MUST NOT be
> changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. Values in the
> 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed unless the tag or
> subtag in the Preferred-Value field is itself deprecated, or if a
> deprecation is reversed in one of the source standards.
>
> --
> Mark

I object to making this change.  Case (1) is already prohibited in sections
3.4(10) and 3.6 of RFC 4646.  

Understood. I was summing up the position, and did not request any change in #1. Note that I am talking about two different, interrelated fields: Deprecated, and Preferred-Value.
 
Case (2) is already covered by 3.4(9) - but
perhaps we should emphasize the optionality implied by the "MAY" in that
clause, because generally, in the interest of stability, one would not want
to put in a new preferred value.

Case 2 is not covered by 3.4(9), and the fix that I am recommending would change current text.

3.4(9) is: "Codes assigned by ISO 639-1 that do not conflict with existing two-letter primary language subtags and which have no corresponding three-letter primary defined in the registry are entered into the IANA registry as new records of type 'language'." I'm not sure how it applies to the cases I'm discussing, and it certainly doesn't apply to region codes.

Let me start again. I'll apologize for being a bit long-winded, but I think it's important to have some specific examples. The situation I discuss in #2 is where there is a case like:

Initial State

Subtag: X
Preferred-Value: Y
Deprecated: 1989-01-01
...
Subtag: Y

X and Y could be 'in' and 'id', OR 'BU' and 'MM', OR some script tag (no instances yet). Note that both X and Y are valid, both with the same meaning, and Y is preferred.

The change.

ISO restores X to being the correct tag, and deprecates Y.

Our response.

There are three courses of action we could take. B2 is in the current text (although not clearly -- see below).

(A) Revert to old tag

Subtag: X
[removed old Preferred-Value and Deprecated]
...
Subtag: Y
Preferred-Value: X
Deprecated: 2010-01-01

(B1) Make new tag (and fix recursion)

Subtag: X
Preferred-Value: Z
Deprecated: 1989-01-01
...
Subtag: Y
Preferred-Value: Z
Deprecated: 2010-01-01
...
Subtag: Z

Z will be of the form '666' for a region or 'zzzzz' for a language subtag.

(B2) Make new tag (require users to do recursion)

Subtag: X
Preferred-Value: Y
Deprecated: 1989-01-01
...
Subtag: Y
Preferred-Value: Z
Deprecated: 2010-01-01
...
Subtag: Z

Z will be of the form '666' for a region or 'zzzzz' for a language subtag.

Note that in all of these cases both X and Y are still valid, both with the same meaning.

If we do B1 or B2, we needlessly deviate from ISO, and are forced into using an new, non-ISO code for something that is perfectly reasonable. Why is this a good idea?

We still have stability in *all* of these cases. All codes before and after any of these options are valid. The only difference is in the preferred form. In the case of A, we are closer to ISO; for B we pointlessly depart from ISO. And in case B2, we have the added disadvantage that if users don't do the recursion correctly, they will end up with incorrect preferred values.

Moreover, the current text is not clear with regard to the difference between B1 and B2.
  • "If a tag or subtag has a 'Preferred-Value' field in its registry entry, then the value of that field SHOULD be used to form the language tag in preference to the tag or subtag in which the preferred value appears." (4.1(3))
  • "Subtags of type 'Region' that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry)) MUST be replaced with their mapped value. Note: In rare cases, the mapped value will also have a Preferred-Value.". (4.4(1))
4.1(3) doesn't mention the possibility of recursion. If the user doesn't realize that the registry doesn't already resolve the PV chains, he'll happily substitute Y for X and think he's done, not realizing that he has to go look at Y to see that it in turn should be replaced by Z.
4.4(1) does mention it, but could be clearer that the user must recurse.
 
Case (3) is a non-problem.  The "deprecated"
in the record only refers to the status in the source standard, not the
validity of the string as a language tag, as should be very clear from the
first sentence of 3.4(0)

I am talking about BOTH the Deprecated status and the Preferred-Value status, in all of my original message if you look back at it. These are distinct, yet intertwined.



Adopting this change would add instability without providing any value,
and the cases cited as motivations are already covered by the RFC 4646
rules.

I disagree. Can you go into more detail -- with examples -- of how you think approach (A) would add instability with regard to codes?

Because both codes X and Y are valid before and after any of these alternatives, the only instability that I think you might be referring to is the canonical form. But the canonical form is changing *all* of these cases: A, B1, and B2; Y is no longer the canonical form in any of them. I don't see why B2 is any "more" stable than A, not in any way that matters.

As to the recursion, although it wouldn't apply in this case if we allow A, it does in other cases. And resolving the recursion for the user in the registry just prevents needless mistakes.
 


Randy


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--
Mark ------=_Part_18280_7801293.1208186128016-- --===============1155367841== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1155367841==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 14 08:47:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5919928C35A; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:47:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6A43A6E1B for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:47:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.745, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pEiVzNYIIu-P for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5951A28C2A2 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JlQtm-0002NY-1u; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:47:14 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:47:14 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080414154713.GI19045@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis asks rhetorically: > If we do B1 or B2, we needlessly deviate from ISO, and are forced into using > an new, non-ISO code for something that is perfectly reasonable. Why is this > a good idea? I agree: it is not a good idea. We should restore the original tag as the preferred value in such cases. > As to the recursion, although it wouldn't apply in this case if we allow A, > it does in other cases. And resolving the recursion for the user in the > registry just prevents needless mistakes. +1. The only arguments I can see against doing the recursion for the user are: 1) Too much risk of error; but we have plenty of vigilant eyes in ietf-languages. 2) The ability to reconstruct the registry as of a given point in time is lost; but Doug Ewell has argued that this ability does not exist anyhow. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Consider the matter of Analytic Philosophy. Dennett and Bennett are well-known. Dennett rarely or never cites Bennett, so Bennett rarely or never cites Dennett. There is also one Dummett. By their works shall ye know them. However, just as no trinities have fourth persons (Zeppo Marx notwithstanding), Bummett is hardly known by his works. Indeed, Bummett does not exist. It is part of the function of this and other e-mail messages, therefore, to do what they can to create him. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 14 10:19:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A4228C330; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:19:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E5928C329 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:19:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.881 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.881 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.718, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YM-R9Rmq3v+v for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE3C28C2ED for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:19:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=JftwuVBzEkkPLtGGM+SZCTqHwMjDszPSQVqK58QUvq5fFrNTifCtqxajiZF3g/h2; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.90.162] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JlSLr-00033b-NU for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:20:20 -0400 Message-ID: <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:21:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8885d2a9c731cc8911742b6747e989648ecefce045556d075e8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.90.162 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 9:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item ... > > Case (2) is already covered by 3.4(9) - but > > perhaps we should emphasize the optionality implied by the "MAY" in that > > clause, because generally, in the interest of stability, one would not > > want > > to put in a new preferred value. > > > Case 2 is not covered by 3.4(9), and the fix that I am recommending would > change current text. > > 3.4(9) is: "Codes assigned by ISO 639-1 that do not conflict with existing > two-letter primary language subtags and which have no corresponding > three-letter primary defined in the registry are entered into the IANA > registry as new records of type 'language'." I'm not sure how it applies to > the cases I'm discussing, and it certainly doesn't apply to region codes. Read the rest of 3.4(9). Important part says: | If a new record of the same type is added that represents a | replacement value, then a 'Preferred-Value' field MAY also be | added. The registration process MAY be used to add comments | about the withdrawal of the code by the respective standard. In other words, the registry is *NOT* required to put in a new preferred-value. Indeed, if the code is just a replacement, I'd think the normal course of action would for the Preferred-Value in the NEW subtag to refer to the ORIGINAL code. This is simpler and better-behaved from a stability perspective. > Let me start again. I'll apologize for being a bit long-winded, but I think > it's important to have some specific examples. The situation I discuss in #2 > is where there is a case like: > > *Initial State > * > Subtag: X > Preferred-Value: Y > Deprecated: 1989-01-01 > ... > Subtag: Y > > X and Y could be 'in' and 'id', OR 'BU' and 'MM', OR some script tag (no > instances yet). Note that both X and Y are valid, both with the same > meaning, and Y is preferred. MM should have had a Preferred-Value of "BU" according to the procedure, rather than the other way around, but that's too late to fix now. > *The change.* > > ISO restores X to being the correct tag, and deprecates Y. > > *Our response. > * > There are three courses of action we could take. B2 is in the current text > (although not clearly -- see below). Disagree. The current procedure would require us to add a "deprecated" to the newly deprecated tag. Since the old (new) tag is already in the registry, and means the same thing, no further action is needed. ... > Because both codes X and Y are valid before and after any of these > alternatives, the only instability that I think you might be referring to is > the canonical form. But the canonical form is changing *all* of these cases: > A, B1, and B2; Y is no longer the canonical form in any of them. I don't see > why B2 is any "more" stable than A, not in any way that matters. ... That is precisely why the original RFC 4646 text is better. If followed carefully, MM would have a Preferred-value of BU, and the canonical form would never have changed. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 14 12:31:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C2ED3A6A2E; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:31:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86573A6B89 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:31:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w9DpmOfjajId for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF743A68D6 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JlUPU-0000nS-Ms; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:32:12 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:32:12 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > Disagree. The current procedure would require us to add a "deprecated" > to the newly deprecated tag. Since the old (new) tag is already in > the registry, and means the same thing, no further action is needed. Then we wind up with both the original tag and its temporary replacement marked deprecated. That's undesirable. > That is precisely why the original RFC 4646 text is better. If followed > carefully, MM would have a Preferred-value of BU, and the canonical > form would never have changed. Unfortunately, the BU->MM change was grandfathered in, so MM is the canonical value at present. So if MM were to be deprecated by ISO in favor of BU, we wind up with Deprecated fields for both tags, making it decidedly unclear which the canonical form is. -- MEET US AT POINT ORANGE AT MIDNIGHT BRING YOUR DUCK OR PREPARE TO FACE WUGGUMS John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 14 19:02:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F4783A6D5D; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:02:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91EFE3A6D5D for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:02:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.299, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jrASR+Zo9tbw for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871D23A6C2D for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:02:08 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=IQUNRUe6epYeQ6DW7OpzCRdeaq++FZZspZqfuWdZa2UPTbvwgeqXbRAsuv+0FiOr; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.90.156] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JlaVM-0006Nh-71 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:02:40 -0400 Message-ID: <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:03:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8885d2a9c731cc891170854aee9084721e35be28557f8ed6b62350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.90.156 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "John Cowan" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 1:32 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item > > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > > Disagree. The current procedure would require us to add a "deprecated" > > to the newly deprecated tag. Since the old (new) tag is already in > > the registry, and means the same thing, no further action is needed. > > Then we wind up with both the original tag and its temporary replacement > marked deprecated. That's undesirable. It would merely reflect what had happened in the source standards. > > That is precisely why the original RFC 4646 text is better. If followed > > carefully, MM would have a Preferred-value of BU, and the canonical > > form would never have changed. > > Unfortunately, the BU->MM change was grandfathered in, so MM is the > canonical value at present. So if MM were to be deprecated by ISO in > favor of BU, we wind up with Deprecated fields for both tags, making it > decidedly unclear which the canonical form is. No, if the Preferred-Value in BU refers to MM, then the logical thing to do is to *not* add a preferred-value to MM if it is ever deprecated in favor of something that would, for purposes of language tagging, identify the same thing. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 14 19:11:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B7F3A6B06; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:11:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB6228C1C9 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:11:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.351 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.351 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ofJ9n-K2EvnE for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B4E28C19A for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JlaeI-0003J5-T7; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:11:54 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:11:54 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > Then we wind up with both the original tag and its temporary replacement > > marked deprecated. That's undesirable. > > It would merely reflect what had happened in the source standards. All too "merely". What, in such circumstances, would a naive reader of the registry conclude was the un-deprecated value, and by what process? > No, if the Preferred-Value in BU refers to MM, then the logical thing to > do is to *not* add a preferred-value to MM if it is ever deprecated in > favor of something that would, for purposes of language tagging, > identify the same thing. So then BU would be deprecated with a P-V of MM, and MM would be deprecated without a P-V, leading the user to conclude that there is no current value at all. -- Evolutionary psychology is the theory John Cowan that men are nothing but horn-dogs, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan and that women only want them for their money. cowan@ccil.org --Susan McCarthy (adapted) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 14 19:25:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1469628C194; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5033A689F for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:25:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.018 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.018 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.280, BAYES_20=-0.74, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqR+GcTiy3QI for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout04-02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout04-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.196]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9CEED3A6B39 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4689 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2008 02:26:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout04-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.199) with ESMTP; 15 Apr 2008 02:26:14 -0000 Message-ID: <002d01c89ea0$1441c630$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:26:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sm9obiBDb3dhbiA8Y293YW4gYXQgY2NpbCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3cm90ZToKCj4gMikgVGhlIGFiaWxp dHkgdG8gcmVjb25zdHJ1Y3QgdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IGFzIG9mIGEgZ2l2ZW4gcG9pbnQgaW4gdGlt ZSAKPiBpcyBsb3N0OyBidXQgRG91ZyBFd2VsbCBoYXMgYXJndWVkIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBhYmlsaXR5 IGRvZXMgbm90IGV4aXN0IAo+IGFueWhvdy4KCkFjdHVhbGx5IEkgdGhpbmsgaXQgd2FzIEFkZGlz b24gd2hvIHNhaWQgdGhhdCwgYnV0IEkgd291bGQgbm90IGRpc2FncmVlLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2Vs bCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRw Oi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRy dS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v aWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 14 19:48:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CDF828C1DB; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397E528C1DB for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:48:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.228 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oDyVORMG29O4 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D150C28C0FF for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m3F2n7Pw000196 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:49:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 159b_847c49cc_0a96_11dd_87db_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:49:07 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:60785) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:44:20 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080415105232.09284ec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:47:19 +0900 To: Julian Reschke , HTTP Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have copied the IETF LTRU (Language Tag Registry Update) WG to make sure they can help get this right. LTRU WG - this is a copy of a reply to a mail on the HTTP WG mailing list about language tags. The spec being updated is http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt. See in particular sections 3.10, Language Tags, 14.4, Accept-Language, and 14.12, Content-Language. Please stop cross-posting for issues that don't affect both groups! Please change the Subject if you change the subject! At 01:02 08/04/15, Julian Reschke wrote: > >Hi, > >(see also ). > >So far we have delayed the resolution 13 until we're done with the ABNF conversion, but since then we have made other changes to the ABNF anyway. Therefore, I'd like to get this one resolved; there's doesn't seem to be anything holding it up...: > >Section 3.5., paragraph 2: >OLD: > > The syntax and registry of HTTP language tags is the same as that > defined by [RFC1766]. In summary, a language tag is composed of 1 or > more parts: A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of > subtags: > >NEW: > > The syntax and registry of HTTP language tags is the same as that > defined by [RFC4646]. In summary, a language tag is composed of one > or more parts: A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of > subtags, The above text gives the impression that there is a separate concept of a "HTTP language tag". Why not just say something like "HTTP uses language tags as defined in ...". Also, with RFC 4646, any further (currently being worked on by the LTRU WG) extensions (not in syntax, but in the number of languages covered) might be excluded. People have been wondering e.g. whether they can use RFC 3066 or RFC 4646 language tags with RFC 2616, we don't want that to happen again. RFC 4646 (and RFC 4647, which defines matching) can be referenced as BCP 47, which doesn't have to be updated even if a new RFC makes more language tags available. The basic syntax is still the same. So I strongly suggest you reference BCP 47 rather than a specific RFC. >Section 3.5., paragraph 3: >OLD: > > language-tag = primary-tag *( "-" subtag ) > primary-tag = 1*8ALPHA > subtag = 1*8ALPHA > >NEW: > > language-tag = See above. >Section 3.5., paragraph 4: >OLD: > > White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- > insensitive. The name space of language tags is administered by the > IANA. Example tags include: > >NEW: > > White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- > insensitive. The name space of language tags is administered by the > IANA (). As you can see on that page, the registry of full language tags is obsolete. It has been replaced by the language subtag registry, at http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry. > Example tags include: > > >Section 3.5., paragraph 6: >OLD: > > where any two-letter primary-tag is an ISO-639 language abbreviation > and any two-letter initial subtag is an ISO-3166 country code. (The > last three tags above are not registered tags; all but the last are > examples of tags which could be registered in future.) > >NEW: > > (The last three tags above are not registered tags; all but the last > are examples of tags which could be registered in future.) This has to be reworded. en-US is a tag allowed based on the current subtag registrations. I'm not totally sure about en-cockney and i-cherokee. The LTRU WG can provide more or different examples. > See RFC 4646 for further information. Again, better use BCP 47. For 14.4, Accept-Language, please note that BCP 47 (RFC 4647 currently) also defines a language-range, probably the same as you have, so you should reference that. There are also various variants for matching predefined; you should be able to choose the one that fits your needs best and then only have to define a few details. >...feedback appreciated. Great. I'm sure that with the cross-posting, you'll get some more. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 14 20:40:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D91113A6ADA; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:40:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6663A6936 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:40:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.688, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jAVeLpdXCLQ9 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342D03A67FD for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:39:55 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=l0iF1aJb4gQ+rl39vwXwmM3gSpEbTqujffK4p/aneOYc9cXwZSD37xL4pGQ0usO0; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.151] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Jlc1w-0004Hj-Qt for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:40:25 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c89ea2$29a61560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:41:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8885d2a9c731cc891175a5b6eb6b85073a901d235955b178b10350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.151 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor.. > From: "John Cowan" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 8:11 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item ... > All too "merely". What, in such circumstances, would a naive reader > of the registry conclude was the un-deprecated value, and by what process? MM, since the only other possibility would have a Preferred-value pointing to it. However, I agree that this would be suboptimal, since a validating processor would be prohibited from generating it. > > No, if the Preferred-Value in BU refers to MM, then the logical thing to > > do is to *not* add a preferred-value to MM if it is ever deprecated in > > favor of something that would, for purposes of language tagging, > > identify the same thing. > > So then BU would be deprecated with a P-V of MM, and MM would be > deprecated without a P-V, leading the user to conclude that there is no > current value at all. That would not be good. Perhaps it would make sense to avail ourselves of RFC 4646 3.1: "The field 'Deprecated' MAY be added to any record via the maintenance process described in Section 3.3 or via the registration process described in Section 3.5." That is, in a pathological situation like the hypothetical withdrawal of MM in favor of BU, the LSR could simply NOT add a "Deprecated" to MM. I think the heart of the problem here is attempting to blindly adopt changes originating from the source standards. Doing so works counter to one of our key goals, that of ensuring a reasonable level of stability. What happened with BU -> MM is in my opinion an example of what we'd like to avoid, so if we're twiddling the procedures, we should do so in a way which makes such cases less likely, not more so. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 00:58:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BBD3A6BA5; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:58:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082B83A6AEF for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:58:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ISU1I7S0qoCr for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102B13A6AD5 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 610361C00F3 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:59:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5186E1C009F for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:59:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECD358EBF1 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:59:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:59:02 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <20080415075902.GA10550@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi" Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-6-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Subject: [Ltru] [julian.reschke@gmx.de: Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags)] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline If anyone has something to contribute to the HTTP working group, which is clearing up HTTP / RFC 2616... --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from maya.nic.fr [192.134.4.160] by batilda.nic.fr with POP3 (fetchmail-6.3.6) for (single-drop); Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:05:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by maya20.nic.fr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id m3EG4jvc1080276 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:04:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) id 0D389A1DA6C; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:04:45 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: bortzmeyer@nic.fr Received: from mx1.nic.fr (mx1.nic.fr [192.134.4.10]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE82A1D98A for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:04:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mx1.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id F38521714040 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:04:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx1.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id DE3A91714053; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:04:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from frink.w3.org (frink.w3.org [128.30.52.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D331714040 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:04:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JlR8q-0008IP-M5 for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:02:48 +0000 Received: from lisa.w3.org ([128.30.52.41]) by frink.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JlR8k-0008Hh-D2 for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:02:42 +0000 Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.20]) by lisa.w3.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JlR8c-0002fp-JB for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:02:42 +0000 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Apr 2008 16:02:01 -0000 Received: from mail.greenbytes.de (EHLO [192.168.1.117]) [217.91.35.233] by mail.gmx.net (mp056) with SMTP; 14 Apr 2008 18:02:01 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18NZBdh7H4NIIN360uiJHBwqhRJm1SwZqVhTgZouW tAFZvsb/kAraDw Message-ID: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:02:01 +0200 Old-From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 Thunderbird/1.5.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: HTTP Working Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Received-SPF: pass X-SPF-Guess: pass X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001 X-W3C-Scan-Sig: lisa.w3.org 1JlR8c-0002fp-JB dcf961ae83abf22c5a23e24178531921 X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org Old-Subject: Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) Archived-At: Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4398 X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org Precedence: list List-Id: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: Resent-Message-Id: Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:02:48 +0000 X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.4.14.85254 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='BODY_SIZE_2000_2999 0, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_LIST_HEADER 0, __HAS_LIST_HELP 0, __HAS_LIST_UNSUBSCRIBE 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0' X-UIDL: 4e0b47b7406f2d3307e8754ddd5ce4f4 X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.1.3 Subject: Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) From: Julian Reschke Received-SPF: on batilda: SPF-pass localhost is always allowed. spfquery: localhost is always allowed. Received-SPF: pass (spfquery: localhost is always allowed.) client-ip=127.0.0.1; envelope-from=; helo=mx1.nic.fr; Hi, (see also ). So far we have delayed the resolution 13 until we're done with the ABNF conversion, but since then we have made other changes to the ABNF anyway. Therefore, I'd like to get this one resolved; there's doesn't seem to be anything holding it up...: Section 3.5., paragraph 2: OLD: The syntax and registry of HTTP language tags is the same as that defined by [RFC1766]. In summary, a language tag is composed of 1 or more parts: A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: NEW: The syntax and registry of HTTP language tags is the same as that defined by [RFC4646]. In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags, Section 3.5., paragraph 3: OLD: language-tag = primary-tag *( "-" subtag ) primary-tag = 1*8ALPHA subtag = 1*8ALPHA NEW: language-tag = Section 3.5., paragraph 4: OLD: White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- insensitive. The name space of language tags is administered by the IANA. Example tags include: NEW: White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- insensitive. The name space of language tags is administered by the IANA (). Example tags include: Section 3.5., paragraph 6: OLD: where any two-letter primary-tag is an ISO-639 language abbreviation and any two-letter initial subtag is an ISO-3166 country code. (The last three tags above are not registered tags; all but the last are examples of tags which could be registered in future.) NEW: (The last three tags above are not registered tags; all but the last are examples of tags which could be registered in future.) See RFC 4646 for further information. ...feedback appreciated. Julian --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 08:29:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4320C28C3E3; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:29:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918EF28C312 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:29:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c-xZbLVkgyag for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECCC3A6C93 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="21968836" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 15 Apr 2008 15:29:51 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3FFToTr015753 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:29:51 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.187.33) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:29:51 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-pub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.187.33]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:29:51 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Randy Presuhn Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:29:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Last open item Thread-Index: Acienhla3XErqZWjTNucTnGnIvl5MAAbY5Ng Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA011FFFE728@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I think we should make a sensible change here. The BU/MM hypothesis (and the existence of actual cases such as CD/ZR with "advantageous dates"), suggests that we should: 1. Allow region subtags to become undeprecated, provided they are assigned their original meaning by ISO 3166. ISO 3166 is a special case because of the limited namespace. Other subtag types don't show this sort of mutation. I think the text required to do this will have to be carefully crafted, though. I have to get my editing environment back online before I propose some [the change in email address and footer are not an accident] :-). 2. Allow P-V to be modified. This follows from the idea that registry maintenance should include removing "preferred value chains". I think these changes are minor and should be incorporated. I also think that a subtag being deprecated with no P-V should be considered unusual, although cases do exist (as when a territory splits into a number of regions, none of which claim the original identity---see "SU"). Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 (Amazon) Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > John Cowan > Sent: lundi 14 avril 2008 19:12 > To: Randy Presuhn > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item > > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > > > Then we wind up with both the original tag and its temporary > replacement > > > marked deprecated. That's undesirable. > > > > It would merely reflect what had happened in the source standards. > > All too "merely". What, in such circumstances, would a naive reader > of the registry conclude was the un-deprecated value, and by what > process? > > > No, if the Preferred-Value in BU refers to MM, then the logical thing > to > > do is to *not* add a preferred-value to MM if it is ever deprecated > in > > favor of something that would, for purposes of language tagging, > > identify the same thing. > > So then BU would be deprecated with a P-V of MM, and MM would be > deprecated without a P-V, leading the user to conclude that there is no > current value at all. > > -- > Evolutionary psychology is the theory John Cowan > that men are nothing but horn-dogs, > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > and that women only want them for their money. cowan@ccil.org > --Susan McCarthy (adapted) > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 10:04:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8393A6DB3; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:04:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693113A6DB3 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:04:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.413 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.413 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6skkzXOov8qM for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D7E3A6E57 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JloaO-000185-C5; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:04:48 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:04:48 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080415170448.GJ28132@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> <001001c89ea2$29a61560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001001c89ea2$29a61560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > I think the heart of the problem here is attempting to blindly > adopt changes originating from the source standards. Doing so works > counter to one of our key goals, that of ensuring a reasonable level of > stability. What happened with BU -> MM is in my opinion an example > of what we'd like to avoid, so if we're twiddling the procedures, we > should do so in a way which makes such cases less likely, not more so. Stability in the preferred value isn't the sort of stability that we can either expect or preserve, particularly in ISO 3166 code elements. What we can and do stabilize is the meaning of subtags: if a source standard attempts to assign a code element to a different meaning than it once had, we provide a replacement subtag instead of reusing that code element. Countries will go on changing their names, and 3166/MA (in accordance with its mandate) will change their codes accordingly; in order not to get out of sync with the rest of the code-using world, we need to track those changes insofar as possible. -- LEAR: Dost thou call me fool, boy? John Cowan FOOL: All thy other titles http://www.ccil.org/~cowan thou hast given away: cowan@ccil.org That thou wast born with. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 10:06:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480B93A6BE9; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:06:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCC93A6E9E for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:06:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.149, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qs9bZZH5DbCy for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A723A6ED7 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JlocF-0001K3-Er; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:06:43 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:06:43 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080415170643.GK28132@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA011FFFE728@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA011FFFE728@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > I think we should make a sensible change here. +1 to the details -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Original line from The Warrior's Apprentice by Lois McMaster Bujold: "Only on Barrayar would pulling a loaded needler start a stampede toward one." English-to-Russian-to-English mangling thereof: "Only on Barrayar you risk to lose support instead of finding it when you threat with the charged weapon." _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 10:25:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0004B3A6E32; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:25:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04B43A6C9D for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:32:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GNgxq5geUvyD for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 803A73A6952 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 15 Apr 2008 11:33:13 -0000 Received: from mail.greenbytes.de (EHLO [192.168.1.117]) [217.91.35.233] by mail.gmx.net (mp048) with SMTP; 15 Apr 2008 13:33:13 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/lqpESbJPl8pOkhp7QNjSst91527BF+EVTdumCba 7GJIbgr5kWEBrf Message-ID: <48049274.3090501@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:33:08 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 Thunderbird/1.5.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: HTTP Working Group , LTRU Working Group References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:25:01 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org OK, thanks for all the feedback so far. I (hopefully) have addressed many of the issues; here's the new proposed text for 3.5: ------ 3.5. Language Tags A language tag, as defined in [RFC4646], identifies a natural language spoken, written, or otherwise conveyed by human beings for communication of information to other human beings. Computer languages are explicitly excluded. HTTP uses language tags within the Accept-Language and Content-Language fields. In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: language-tag = White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- insensitive. The name space of language subtags is administered by the IANA (see ). Example tags include: en, en-US, es-419, az-Arab, x-pig-latin, man-Nkoo-GN See RFC 4646 for further information. ------ (see also ). BR, Julian _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 10:25:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4104728C34C; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:25:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55CFA28C3CD for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:25:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.655 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.655 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V15bVZEYljbD for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AA0D28C3B7 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 15 Apr 2008 11:25:40 -0000 Received: from mail.greenbytes.de (EHLO [192.168.1.117]) [217.91.35.233] by mail.gmx.net (mp018) with SMTP; 15 Apr 2008 13:25:40 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19mvApUI6dmlMf7l/Q2stgXWACDCrC3GQVNANjPyq RaPGJqBvtRa7oP Message-ID: <480490B0.9030607@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:25:36 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 Thunderbird/1.5.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20080415105232.09284ec0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080415105232.09284ec0@localhost> X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:25:34 -0700 Cc: LTRU Working Group , HTTP Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > The above text gives the impression that there is a separate > concept of a "HTTP language tag". Why not just say something > like "HTTP uses language tags as defined in ...". Ack. > Also, with RFC 4646, any further (currently being worked on by the LTRU WG) > extensions (not in syntax, but in the number of languages covered) might > be excluded. People have been wondering e.g. whether they can use > RFC 3066 or RFC 4646 language tags with RFC 2616, we don't want that > to happen again. RFC 4646 (and RFC 4647, which defines matching) can > be referenced as BCP 47, which doesn't have to be updated even if > a new RFC makes more language tags available. The basic syntax > is still the same. So I strongly suggest you reference BCP 47 > rather than a specific RFC. As we're including the Language-Tag ABNF production by reference, I'd prefer to stick with a fixed reference. > As you can see on that page, the registry of full language tags is > obsolete. It has been replaced by the language subtag registry, at > http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry. ACK. >> Section 3.5., paragraph 6: >> OLD: >> >> where any two-letter primary-tag is an ISO-639 language abbreviation >> and any two-letter initial subtag is an ISO-3166 country code. (The >> last three tags above are not registered tags; all but the last are >> examples of tags which could be registered in future.) >> >> NEW: >> >> (The last three tags above are not registered tags; all but the last >> are examples of tags which could be registered in future.) > > This has to be reworded. en-US is a tag allowed based on the current > subtag registrations. I'm not totally sure about en-cockney and i-cherokee. > The LTRU WG can provide more or different examples. I think the simplest fix is just to remove the statement. > For 14.4, Accept-Language, please note that BCP 47 (RFC 4647 currently) > also defines a language-range, probably the same as you have, so you > should reference that. There are also various variants for matching > predefined; you should be able to choose the one that fits your needs > best and then only have to define a few details. Good catch; I'd prefer to deal with this separately. > ... BR, Julian _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 10:26:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A05F3A6F25; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:26:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BF03A6913 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:26:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id awl6fAZR4PCf for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7D33A69BE for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:26:02 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="22042821" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 15 Apr 2008 17:26:35 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3FHQXnt017021 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:26:35 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:26:34 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Duerst , Julian Reschke , HTTP Working Group Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:26:32 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) Thread-Index: Acieo0tcMn6vgAFoQ8q0oV28m6za8gAdeZ+w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA011FFFE92A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20080415105232.09284ec0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080415105232.09284ec0@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org 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dGNoaW5nIGFsZ29yaXRobXMuDQoNCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 10:29:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17583A695D; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:29:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA663A6804 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:29:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PI-2NWjMkS-v for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-out-2102.amazon.com (smtp-fw-out-2102.amazon.com [72.21.196.222]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2A23A6EFF for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:29:08 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,661,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="297598431" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2102.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 15 Apr 2008 17:29:42 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3FHTdvt031034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:29:41 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:29:39 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Julian Reschke , HTTP Working Group , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:29:38 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) Thread-Index: AcifHcjEFv02cSjFR+2Ws7DqTmedJQAAGb9g Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA011FFFE93A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <48049274.3090501@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <48049274.3090501@gmx.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org "No sooner do I push send..." This text would work for me. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 (Amazon) Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Julian Reschke > Sent: mardi 15 avril 2008 04:33 > To: HTTP Working Group; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) > > OK, > > thanks for all the feedback so far. I (hopefully) have addressed many > of > the issues; here's the new proposed text for 3.5: > > ------ > 3.5. Language Tags > > A language tag, as defined in [RFC4646], identifies a natural > language spoken, written, or otherwise conveyed by human beings for > communication of information to other human beings. Computer > languages are explicitly excluded. HTTP uses language tags within > the Accept-Language and Content-Language fields. > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: > > language-tag = > > White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- > insensitive. The name space of language subtags is administered by > the IANA (see > ). > > Example tags include: > > en, en-US, es-419, az-Arab, x-pig-latin, man-Nkoo-GN > > See RFC 4646 for further information. > ------ > > (see also ). > > > BR, Julian > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 10:41:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA0D3A6E6E; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:41:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED1028C204 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.255 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.255 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.344, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2as7zwBctPPm for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A845128C134 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:41:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=QewfyNDl+1iXjPUqMhe3Nywntxsm2tyGyp6iuzjUqDaUK0XFIRQ2FOYzI1h6XH+S; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.188.83] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JlpA4-0000Zy-Vv for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:41:41 -0400 Message-ID: <002601c89f17$aff089a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> <001001c89ea2$29a61560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415170448.GJ28132@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:42:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8885d2a9c731cc891175d079cf2387a519ef090ae429cb032e0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.188.83 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "John Cowan" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item ... > Stability in the preferred value isn't the sort of stability that we > can either expect or preserve, particularly in ISO 3166 code elements. > What we can and do stabilize is the meaning of subtags: if a source > standard attempts to assign a code element to a different meaning than > it once had, we provide a replacement subtag instead of reusing that > code element. > > Countries will go on changing their names, and 3166/MA (in accordance > with its mandate) will change their codes accordingly; Strongly agree, but.... > in order not to > get out of sync with the rest of the code-using world, we need to track > those changes insofar as possible. ... Strongly disagree. One of the motivations for the formation of this working group was to provide a way to insulate language tags from what was perceived as excessive instability in some of the code sources. As I see it, stability, particularly the stability of the canonical form of a language tag, is dramatically more important than staying in sync with other uses of codes coming from the standards we used to initially populate our registry. After all, if we're just going to blindly track the ISO code du jour for every little piece of dirt, there's really little point to even bothering to put these things in our registry. If consistency with other uses of those source specifications trumps stability as a consideration, then we should throw out our current procedures and registry, just say "see ISO registry mumble for these codes", and limit our registry and procedures exclusively to codes for things that ISO hasn't coded. Otherwise, we will find ourselves in the situation that a tag found to be OK be a validating processor will suddenly become not OK. That's simply not acceptable. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 10:58:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FC83A6F13; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:58:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F4D83A6804 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:58:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GCgYVBA03OnH for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4A43A6F2C for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 2so1005869ywt.49 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:59:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=fSmus3mNTJUya4osPQJESItkA9NkKBYZAVqA0cLzkWg=; b=HqfFzeBGE35tZbm1nPpMr2zqm4mfLxrMclw+wWWNUly6mTl5+O5Lo6ZCfkSvJRV8oyyGQ7wd3JeXfKSYOa7nuZUrPe7SPsexr+HF1NNYoTVxkuet0KBWkO3hevw3sd0pB1HI3S5VXfJJXC39Kddwi7KXyonEYpsZRc5z+Y65vwc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=uxH5i+DD/nb5QTq1e6Umxvla/+qvo6AMm/Qqzd4E4ET459BATfgXyBFEUBK9Z6C9OHcmpq0jLkYR8B54ZbkGPZj4iNmzBG3g0JRJgzJ5vc5KfkZoCMM2QbvLlMhFbvhOphzxEu3RvDQqfLZsi18VcT9GeO05IIOdpO8QfMxy6AE= Received: by 10.150.148.7 with SMTP id v7mr8172247ybd.95.1208282348586; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.229.9 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804151059m2e82e773y5a9b0c4f2aab883a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:59:07 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <002601c89f17$aff089a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> <001001c89ea2$29a61560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415170448.GJ28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89f17$aff089a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9b5e9c38053b9361 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0069412493==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0069412493== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2361_9793990.1208282348535" ------=_Part_2361_9793990.1208282348535 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > we will find ourselves in the situation that a tag found to be OK > be a validating processor will suddenly become not OK That is a red herring. There appears to be a fundamental misperception here. The key issue is that canonical form is NOT the same as is valid, and never has been. Moreover: 1. The canonical form is not, and never has been "stable" in the sense you mean. Any time a subtag is deprecated in favor of another, we make the change, which will change the canonical form. True of our process before, and still true in the latest draft. 2. However, the key notion of stability that we have striven for is that once a tag is valid, it will always stay valid. *That is true even if the canonical form changes.* 3. This drives the main stabilizing principle in BCP 47, which is that once in the registry, we never change the meaning of a subtag in a way that would narrow the denotation of a tag (or change it completely, like CS was handled by ISO). THAT is the area where we stabilize the ISO codes, and where we do not accept changes from ISO. If you have a math bent, think of it this way. The domain of valid tags is partitioned into equivalence classes. Each equivalence class has one distinguished member, the canonical form. Over time, only certain changes are allowed: - Tags never disappear (each of the tags, once valid, will always remain valid). - New tags and equivalence classes may be added. - The canonical form for a given class may change, but the old canonical form remains valid and remains the same in meaning as the new one. - Equivalence classes may grow, and may merge (unlikly but possible), but will never split. Mark On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > > From: "John Cowan" > > To: "Randy Presuhn" > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:04 AM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item > ... > > Stability in the preferred value isn't the sort of stability that we > > can either expect or preserve, particularly in ISO 3166 code elements. > > What we can and do stabilize is the meaning of subtags: if a source > > standard attempts to assign a code element to a different meaning than > > it once had, we provide a replacement subtag instead of reusing that > > code element. > > > > Countries will go on changing their names, and 3166/MA (in accordance > > with its mandate) will change their codes accordingly; > > Strongly agree, but.... > > > in order not to > > get out of sync with the rest of the code-using world, we need to track > > those changes insofar as possible. > ... > > Strongly disagree. > > One of the motivations for the formation of this working group was to > provide > a way to insulate language tags from what was perceived as excessive > instability > in some of the code sources. As I see it, stability, particularly the > stability of > the canonical form of a language tag, is dramatically more important than > staying in sync with other uses of codes coming from the standards we used > to initially populate our registry. After all, if we're just going to > blindly track > the ISO code du jour for every little piece of dirt, there's really little > point > to even bothering to put these things in our registry. If consistency > with > other uses of those source specifications trumps stability as a > consideration, > then we should throw out our current procedures and registry, just say > "see > ISO registry mumble for these codes", and limit our registry and > procedures > exclusively to codes for things that ISO hasn't coded. > > Otherwise, we will find ourselves in the situation that a tag found to be > OK > be a validating processor will suddenly become not OK. That's simply > not acceptable. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_2361_9793990.1208282348535 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
> we will find ourselves in the situation that a tag found to be OK
> be a validating processor will suddenly become not OK

That is a red herring. There appears to be a fundamental misperception here. The key issue is that canonical form is NOT the same as is valid, and never has been. Moreover:

1. The canonical form is not, and never has been "stable" in the sense you mean. Any time a subtag is deprecated in favor of another, we make the change, which will change the canonical form. True of our process before, and still true in the latest draft.

2. However, the key notion of stability that we have striven for is that once a tag is valid, it will always stay valid. That is true even if the canonical form changes.

3. This drives the main stabilizing principle in BCP 47, which is that once in the registry, we never change the meaning of a subtag in a way that would narrow the denotation of a tag (or change it completely, like CS was handled by ISO). THAT is the area where we stabilize the ISO codes, and where we do not accept changes from ISO.

If you have a math bent, think of it this way. The domain of valid tags is partitioned into equivalence classes. Each equivalence class has one distinguished member, the canonical form. Over time, only certain changes are allowed:
  • Tags never disappear (each of the tags, once valid, will always remain valid).
  • New tags and equivalence classes may be added.
  • The canonical form for a given class may change, but the old canonical form remains valid and remains the same in meaning as the new one.
  • Equivalence classes may grow, and may merge (unlikly but possible), but will never split.
Mark

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item
...
> Stability in the preferred value isn't the sort of stability that we
> can either expect or preserve, particularly in ISO 3166 code elements.
> What we can and do stabilize is the meaning of subtags: if a source
> standard attempts to assign a code element to a different meaning than
> it once had, we provide a replacement subtag instead of reusing that
> code element.
>
> Countries will go on changing their names, and 3166/MA (in accordance
> with its mandate) will change their codes accordingly;

Strongly agree, but....

> in order not to
> get out of sync with the rest of the code-using world, we need to track
> those changes insofar as possible.
...

Strongly disagree.

One of the motivations for the formation of this working group was to provide
a way to insulate language tags from what was perceived as excessive instability
in some of the code sources.  As I see it, stability, particularly the stability of
the canonical form of a language tag, is dramatically more important than
staying in sync with other uses of codes coming from the standards we used
to initially populate our registry.  After all, if we're just going to blindly track
the ISO code du jour for every little piece of dirt, there's really little point
to even bothering to put these things in our registry.  If consistency with
other uses of those source specifications trumps stability as a consideration,
then we should throw out our current procedures and registry, just say "see
ISO registry mumble for these codes", and limit our registry and procedures
exclusively to codes for things that ISO hasn't coded.

Otherwise, we will find ourselves in the situation that a tag found to be OK
be a validating processor will suddenly become not OK.  That's simply
not acceptable.

Randy

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark ------=_Part_2361_9793990.1208282348535-- --===============0069412493== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0069412493==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 11:00:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71BF3A6F13; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:00:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179A53A6F13 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:00:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.392 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.392 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.207, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jr2nzfitTUM5 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-0102.amazon.com (smtp-fw-0102.amazon.com [207.171.190.55]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C8983A6C60 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:00:37 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,661,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="299131854" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-0102.sea3.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 15 Apr 2008 18:01:10 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3FI18gD005152 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:01:09 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:01:05 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:01:04 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Last open item Thread-Index: AcifIdLPGiA5ORhAQWOsGb8tomlhmwAAKHkg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA011FFFE9C2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> <001001c89ea2$29a61560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415170448.GJ28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89f17$aff089a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <002601c89f17$aff089a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org "Canonical" != "valid" We are not proposing to ever make a tag invalid. We are proposing to allow the canonical form of the tag to change reflecting changes in the world. There is even a warning in 4647 about being overly aggressive in canonicalizing tags. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 (Amazon) Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Randy Presuhn > Sent: mardi 15 avril 2008 09:42 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > > From: "John Cowan" > > To: "Randy Presuhn" > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:04 AM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item > ... > > Stability in the preferred value isn't the sort of stability that we > > can either expect or preserve, particularly in ISO 3166 code elements. > > What we can and do stabilize is the meaning of subtags: if a source > > standard attempts to assign a code element to a different meaning > than > > it once had, we provide a replacement subtag instead of reusing that > > code element. > > > > Countries will go on changing their names, and 3166/MA (in accordance > > with its mandate) will change their codes accordingly; > > Strongly agree, but.... > > > in order not to > > get out of sync with the rest of the code-using world, we need to > track > > those changes insofar as possible. > ... > > Strongly disagree. > > One of the motivations for the formation of this working group was to > provide > a way to insulate language tags from what was perceived as excessive > instability > in some of the code sources. As I see it, stability, particularly the > stability of > the canonical form of a language tag, is dramatically more important > than > staying in sync with other uses of codes coming from the standards we > used > to initially populate our registry. After all, if we're just going to > blindly track > the ISO code du jour for every little piece of dirt, there's really > little point > to even bothering to put these things in our registry. If consistency > with > other uses of those source specifications trumps stability as a > consideration, > then we should throw out our current procedures and registry, just say > "see > ISO registry mumble for these codes", and limit our registry and > procedures > exclusively to codes for things that ISO hasn't coded. > > Otherwise, we will find ourselves in the situation that a tag found to > be OK > be a validating processor will suddenly become not OK. That's simply > not acceptable. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 11:22:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021A03A68DD; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:22:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C213A6C97 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:22:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.324 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.324 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.275, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dEXCGcR6kiCv for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9871D3A6818 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:22:33 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=BSd/WSPD2BzyZtacCuCmVkvUinYSAVP9pZKGEfSpsfBYtzuR9a64rf7z9D/tWFZ+; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.188.83] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JlpoA-00019y-VM for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:23:07 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c89f1d$7abf8960$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> <001001c89ea2$29a61560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415170448.GJ28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89f17$aff089a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804151059m2e82e773y5a9b0c4f2aab883a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:23:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8885d2a9c731cc89117dc2597d8421f453b070e67b74a5356d5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.188.83 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item > > > we will find ourselves in the situation that a tag found to be OK > > be a validating processor will suddenly become not OK > > That is a red herring. There appears to be a fundamental misperception here. > The key issue is that canonical form is NOT the same as is valid, and never > has been. Moreover: RFC 4646 is quite clear: "Although valid in language tags, subtags and tags with a 'Deprecated' field are deprecated and validating processors SHOULD NOT generate these subtags." Thus my statement that something that would have once been fine will suddenly become "not OK". > 1. The canonical form is not, and never has been "stable" in the sense you > mean. Any time a subtag is deprecated in favor of another, we make the > change, which will change the canonical form. True of our process before, > and still true in the latest draft. I could understand this as part of the process of constructing RFC 4646 to deal with historical mistakes. I think continuing down that path would be a really bad idea. > 2. However, the key notion of stability that we have striven for is that > once a tag is valid, it will always stay valid. *That is true even if the > canonical form changes.* Somehow the notion that the canonical form for an entity would change over time seems contrary to the very notion of "canonical." > 3. This drives the main stabilizing principle in BCP 47, which is that once > in the registry, we never change the meaning of a subtag in a way that would > narrow the denotation of a tag (or change it completely, like CS was handled > by ISO). THAT is the area where we stabilize the ISO codes, and where we do > not accept changes from ISO. > > If you have a math bent, think of it this way. The domain of valid tags is > partitioned into equivalence classes. Each equivalence class has one > distinguished member, the canonical form. Over time, only certain changes > are allowed: > > - Tags never disappear (each of the tags, once valid, will always > remain valid). > - New tags and equivalence classes may be added. > - The canonical form for a given class may change, but the old > canonical form remains valid and remains the same in meaning as the new one. > - Equivalence classes may grow, and may merge (unlikly but possible), > but will never split. All fine, except for permitting the canonical form to change. However, since I seem to be the only person bothered by this kind of instability, and since I'd love to see this work finished so we can close down this WG, I'll give up. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 12:09:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBF428C0EC; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:09:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08EF73A6E55 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:09:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.475 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.475 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.124, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K1glHgGKSyY6 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B711A3A6D5D for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JlqXu-00011D-QZ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:10:22 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:10:22 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080415191022.GA15414@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20804101252p37e22884g6dfbec6dd17e5ea1@mail.gmail.com> <006101c89daa$323fc3e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> <001001c89ea2$29a61560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415170448.GJ28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89f17$aff089a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002601c89f17$aff089a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > One of the motivations for the formation of this working group was > to provide a way to insulate language tags from what was perceived as > excessive instability in some of the code sources. That is to say, we couldn't at the time trust ISO 3166/MA not to reassign code elements to new meanings; in addition, there was no one-stop shop for subtags (see below). > After all, if we're just going to blindly track the ISO code du jour > for every little piece of dirt, there's really little point to even > bothering to put these things in our registry. I would be slow to call a sovereign nation a "little piece of dirt". > If consistency with other uses of those source specifications trumps > stability as a consideration, then we should throw out our current > procedures and registry, just say "see ISO registry mumble for these > codes", and limit our registry and procedures exclusively to codes > for things that ISO hasn't coded. I disagree entirely: even if it weren't stable (in my sense), the convenience of having a single registry to look at in a machine-readable format, instead of four registries in random prose formats, is considerable. > Otherwise, we will find ourselves in the situation that a tag found > to be OK be a validating processor will suddenly become not OK. > That's simply not acceptable. Are you under the impression that either RFC 4646 or the current draft requires a validating processor to reject deprecated subtags? That is not so. There is language in 3.1.5 (of either version) that says validating processors SHOULD NOT *generate* them, but that's a different story. -- A poetical purist named Cowan [that's me: cowan@ccil.org] Once put the rest of us dowan. [on xml-dev] "Your verse would be sweeter http://www.ccil.org/~cowan If it only had metre And rhymes that didn't force me to frowan." [overpacked line!] --Michael Kay _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 00:39:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3BF83A6C98; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:39:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7043A6D12 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:39:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.034 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.034 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.172, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tjUzzfF9Hu5q for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF39C3A6C98 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m3G7dPib014381 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:39:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 7134_3cbde102_0b88_11dd_96e0_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:39:24 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:44343) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:34:37 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080416155918.08629ec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:01:32 +0900 To: Julian Reschke , HTTP Working Group , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <48049274.3090501@gmx.de> References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <48049274.3090501@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 20:33 08/04/15, Julian Reschke wrote: > >OK, > >thanks for all the feedback so far. I (hopefully) have addressed many of the issues; here's the new proposed text for 3.5: > >------ >3.5. Language Tags > > A language tag, as defined in [RFC4646], identifies a natural > language spoken, written, or otherwise conveyed by human beings for > communication of information to other human beings. Computer > languages are explicitly excluded. HTTP uses language tags within > the Accept-Language and Content-Language fields. > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: > > language-tag = > > White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- > insensitive. The name space of language subtags is administered by > the IANA (see > ). This is going very much in the right direction, but there is some confusion about what a subtag means. Where it says "A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags", the first tag (e.g. 'en' in 'en-US') seems to not be a subtag, but the subtag registry clearly also includes that as a subtag, and RFC 4646 is using terminology consistent with that. Regards, Martin. > Example tags include: > > en, en-US, es-419, az-Arab, x-pig-latin, man-Nkoo-GN > > See RFC 4646 for further information. >------ > >(see also ). > > >BR, Julian > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 02:21:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C2C28C417; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:21:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EDC83A6E8A for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:21:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P7Atn5H+ph09 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC1928C4B4 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.4) with ESMTP id md50007998388.msg for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:29:43 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:29:43 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1992d49b69=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:21:16 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Martin Duerst'" , "'Julian Reschke'" , "'HTTP Working Group'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <48049274.3090501@gmx.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20080416155918.08629ec0@localhost> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:20:34 +0100 Message-ID: <0df501c89fa3$207ae630$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080416155918.08629ec0@localhost> Thread-Index: AciflYMw3IBwjOJwTmqkkphDDUaM8gADOYoA X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:29:43 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I would agree with Martin and propose the following changes: From: --- > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: To: --- In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A primary language subtag followed by a, possibly empty, series of subtags: --- best regards Debbie Garside > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Martin Duerst > Sent: 16 April 2008 08:02 > To: Julian Reschke; HTTP Working Group; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) > > At 20:33 08/04/15, Julian Reschke wrote: > > > >OK, > > > >thanks for all the feedback so far. I (hopefully) have > addressed many of the issues; here's the new proposed text for 3.5: > > > >------ > >3.5. Language Tags > > > > A language tag, as defined in [RFC4646], identifies a natural > > language spoken, written, or otherwise conveyed by human > beings for > > communication of information to other human beings. Computer > > languages are explicitly excluded. HTTP uses language > tags within > > the Accept-Language and Content-Language fields. > > > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: > > > > language-tag = Section 2.1> > > > > White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- > > insensitive. The name space of language subtags is > administered by > > the IANA (see > > ). > > This is going very much in the right direction, but there is > some confusion about what a subtag means. Where it says "A > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags", > the first tag (e.g. 'en' in 'en-US') seems to not be a > subtag, but the subtag registry clearly also includes that as > a subtag, and RFC 4646 is using terminology consistent with that. > > Regards, Martin. > > > Example tags include: > > > > en, en-US, es-419, az-Arab, x-pig-latin, man-Nkoo-GN > > > > See RFC 4646 for further information. > >------ > > > >(see also ). > > > > > >BR, Julian > > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp > mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 03:45:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C6C3A68C2; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:45:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1BB13A68C2 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:45:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vz-HdoKXvdLr for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1ADD3A67DA for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 6237A1C012C; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5B11C011C; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1CE58EBEA; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:46:20 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080416104620.GA10693@nic.fr> References: <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> <001001c89ea2$29a61560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415170448.GJ28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89f17$aff089a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804151059m2e82e773y5a9b0c4f2aab883a@mail.gmail.com> <000b01c89f1d$7abf8960$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000b01c89f1d$7abf8960$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-6-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:23:53AM -0600, Randy Presuhn wrote a message of 69 lines which said: > Somehow the notion that the canonical form for an entity would > change over time seems contrary to the very notion of "canonical." -1 for me. "Canonical" never implied "once canonical, always canonical". Every standard which performs canonicalization has the same issues. For instance, NFC in Unicode is not stable (a string of Unicode characters which is in NFC form today may not be in the future). You have to add a few constraints, as the RFC 5198 does, to have a "stable NFC". _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 06:30:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FB63A6CE7; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2270E3A6CB8 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SuDsErgu5-qh for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4664228C1DA for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:49 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:49 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Last open item Thread-Index: Acicvg++Xodq9yQ0RICT6RVOQTJxWQDB/zvA Message-ID: References: <001a01c89cbe$0d818350$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <001a01c89cbe$0d818350$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org KzENClBldGVyDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogbHRydS1i b3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYg T2YNCj4gRG91ZyBFd2VsbA0KPiBTZW50OiBTYXR1cmRheSwgQXByaWwgMTIsIDIwMDggOTo1NiBB TQ0KPiBUbzogTFRSVSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbTHRydV0gTGFzdCBv cGVuIGl0ZW0NCj4NCj4gTWFyayBEYXZpcyA8bWFyayBkb3QgZGF2aXMgYXQgaWN1IGRhc2ggcHJv amVjdCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCj4NCj4gPiBCZWZvcmUgZm9yd2FyZGluZyBhIG5ldyByZWdp c3RyYXRpb24gdG8gSUFOQSwgdGhlIExhbmd1YWdlIFN1YnRhZw0KPiA+IFJldmlld2VyIE1VU1Qg ZW5zdXJlIHRoYXQgdmFsdWVzIGluIHRoZSAnU3VidGFnJyBmaWVsZCBtYXRjaCBjYXNlDQo+ID4g YWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDMuMSwgYW5kIHRoYXQgYWxs IG90aGVyDQo+ID4gcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIG9mIHRoaXMgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiBhcmUgZm9sbG93 ZWQuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBSYXRpb25hbGUuIEl0IGhhcyBiZWVuIGltcGxpY2l0IGluIGFsbCBvZiBv dXIgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgYW5kIGluIHRoZQ0KPiA+IGRvY3VtZW50IHRoYXQgdGhlIExTUiBtdXN0 IGZvbGxvdyBhbGwgb2YgdGhlIHBvbGljaWVzIGluIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudA0KPiA+IFthcmUgZm9s bG93ZWRdLCAqbm90IGp1c3QgY2FzaW5nKi4gSG93ZXZlciwgaXQgaXNuJ3QgcmVhbGx5IGV4cGxp Y2l0DQo+ID4gaW4gdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50LCBhbmQgc2hvdWxkIGJlLiBUaGlzIGlzIGEgbWluaW1h bCBjaGFuZ2UgdG8gdGhhdCBlbmQNCj4gPiAoYWx0aG91Z2ggb3RoZXIgd29yZGluZyB3b3VsZCBi ZSBwb3NzaWJsZSkuDQo+DQo+IEFncmVlZC4gIFRoaXMgY2hhbmdlIGlzIHNob3J0IGFuZCBoYXJt bGVzcy4NCj4NCj4gLS0NCj4gRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAq ICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNA0KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnDQo+IGh0dHA6 Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwNCj4gaHR0cDov L3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGDQo+ DQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEx0 cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 06:45:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F293A6AEB; 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c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=OUf9oa6C7MvqYs2T0psVAxNhBqOAUqNlK2v3ogAlqgc=; b=RGLMwmvhsOvKYAOVuASRVLUce84fkmECHqbIRqttddgSexPYawdP3hTcfS9uXfZx+ZAJuA0vkcIn5PonquyMfGA2UjKrIBKnoY+aNEO5nv51LryXHdwOnffxBERKNmVJGP7rUHtWEX2vAkeDPEPgZ3Ueum5mJMhfOVq87rpOaL4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=hOwwD7LMVOi77vA5if/g9H769zDV2cjw6SbcfG6T1hCRLDBrUZJaj1rr4nlqF0vKjYtyT+y7bVjWwnGB0P/Gc3UrO82ilpm1RILIsdZ0pt9m9dKhuszTsMLbM6Nq/3uOEr2wF+TRJXF/qrgw9SrGWewEAX4v6GkJ+rB2WlByCDw= Received: by 10.151.108.7 with SMTP id k7mr68775ybm.240.1208353569395; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.229.9 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804160646n14a12f71r589d1728c72db695@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:46:09 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Martin Duerst" In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080416155918.08629ec0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <48049274.3090501@gmx.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20080416155918.08629ec0@localhost> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 27c07e3d62fc218b Cc: Julian Reschke , LTRU Working Group , HTTP Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0431545121==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0431545121== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5978_14670091.1208353569384" ------=_Part_5978_14670091.1208353569384 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Agreed. Even that is incorrect, since there may not be a primary language subtag, such as in the case of "x-duerst". So I'd recommend something more like: > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: => In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: typically a primary language subtag followed optionally by a series of other subtags such as script and region. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Martin Duerst wrote: > At 20:33 08/04/15, Julian Reschke wrote: > > > >OK, > > > >thanks for all the feedback so far. I (hopefully) have addressed many of > the issues; here's the new proposed text for 3.5: > > > >------ > >3.5. Language Tags > > > > A language tag, as defined in [RFC4646], identifies a natural > > language spoken, written, or otherwise conveyed by human beings for > > communication of information to other human beings. Computer > > languages are explicitly excluded. HTTP uses language tags within > > the Accept-Language and Content-Language fields. > > > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: > > > > language-tag = > > > > White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- > > insensitive. The name space of language subtags is administered by > > the IANA (see > > ). > > This is going very much in the right direction, but there > is some confusion about what a subtag means. Where it says > "A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags", > the first tag (e.g. 'en' in 'en-US') seems to not be a subtag, > but the subtag registry clearly also includes that as a subtag, > and RFC 4646 is using terminology consistent with that. > > Regards, Martin. > > > Example tags include: > > > > en, en-US, es-419, az-Arab, x-pig-latin, man-Nkoo-GN > > > > See RFC 4646 for further information. > >------ > > > >(see also ). > > > > > >BR, Julian > > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_5978_14670091.1208353569384 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Agreed. Even that is incorrect, since there may not be a primary language subtag, such as in the case of "x-duerst". So I'd recommend something more like:

>    In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A
>    primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags:
=>
In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: typically a primary language subtag followed optionally by a series of other subtags such as script and region.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
At 20:33 08/04/15, Julian Reschke wrote:
>
>OK,
>
>thanks for all the feedback so far. I (hopefully) have addressed many of the issues; here's the new proposed text for 3.5:
>
>------
>3.5.  Language Tags
>
>    A language tag, as defined in [RFC4646], identifies a natural
>    language spoken, written, or otherwise conveyed by human beings for
>    communication of information to other human beings.  Computer
>    languages are explicitly excluded.  HTTP uses language tags within
>    the Accept-Language and Content-Language fields.
>
>    In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A
>    primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags:
>
>      language-tag  = <Language-Tag, defined in [RFC4646], Section 2.1>
>
>    White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case-
>    insensitive.  The name space of language subtags is administered by
>    the IANA (see
>    <http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry>).

This is going very much in the right direction, but there
is some confusion about what a subtag means. Where it says
"A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags",
the first tag (e.g. 'en' in 'en-US') seems to not be a subtag,
but the subtag registry clearly also includes that as a subtag,
and RFC 4646 is using terminology consistent with that.

Regards,   Martin.

>    Example tags include:
>
>      en, en-US, es-419, az-Arab, x-pig-latin, man-Nkoo-GN
>
>    See RFC 4646 for further information.
>------
>
>(see also <http://www.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/13>).
>
>
>BR, Julian
>


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

_______________________________________________



--
Mark ------=_Part_5978_14670091.1208353569384-- --===============0431545121== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0431545121==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 08:00:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C361D3A6CBD; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:00:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A463A6904 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:00:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3W4obaVKwyYc for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-out-2102.amazon.com (smtp-fw-out-2102.amazon.com [72.21.196.222]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57AF228C4DF for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:00:14 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,664,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="297752338" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2102.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Apr 2008 15:00:49 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3GF0mrq030281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:00:48 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:00:47 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Julian Reschke Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:59:40 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) Thread-Index: Acifw14AEWq42wxnSWu+YrC+aBc0rgACrvHA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8D4B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20080415105232.09284ec0@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA011FFFE92A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4805FAF2.7050408@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <4805FAF2.7050408@gmx.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , HTTP Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Julian replied: > > It may be better to reference Language-Tag as defined in 2.2.9 for > compatibility. While it would be good to adopt the modern language tag > ABNF, that would suggest that receivers reject tags that were well- > formed but no longer are. > > For the record: that's in RFC4646bis, but not in RFC4646, right? Yes, exactly so. > > 2. The new version includes an ABNF production of value to HTTPbis > (obs-language). > > Now that would be a good reason. I'm of two minds here: I would prefer not to reference the 3066-compatible syntax. Language tags which match that production but not 4646/4646bis's have never been valid and the majority of "bad tags" in the wild turn out to match the newer ABNF anyway. However, some bad tags in the wild might not. Perhaps reference the Section 2.1 ABNF but with a cautionary note about the change? > > Are you saying that HTTP should use that production (obs-language, > 2.2.9>), (wearing editor hat) I erred in referencing the production name here. In draft-12 it is (sadly) called "Language-Tag" too. I will change the production name to make it distinct in the next-and-hopefully-last version. Best Regards, Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 (Amazon) Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 08:00:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B46228C215; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:00:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39A33A6C42 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:00:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by 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To: Mark Davis , Martin Duerst Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:00:46 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) Thread-Index: AcifyERYawjyOweCTN6K6eUbcDxSWQABPElg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8D49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <48049274.3090501@gmx.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20080416155918.08629ec0@localhost> <30b660a20804160646n14a12f71r589d1728c72db695@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20804160646n14a12f71r589d1728c72db695@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Julian Reschke , LTRU Working Group , HTTP Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: 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Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1878797907==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 08:58:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9751828C255; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:58:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38763A6C92 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:58:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.276 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.276 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.900, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KN3q+oqDPVxc for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D01528C255 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 2so1255905ywt.49 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:58:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=zdarWrWjRMAs21/iv7moyui8LJXtB7UqnosNqNXf8rc=; b=m8fs9OFyquGinM9QlTPae1Q21UHCBbwX4i9MKtgSZllAvaiBQvXwEBP1U8eS9rKYXF0wfCinnnskxu7/tItGHCTMeRFjJSG0aq+dlgFEGDt49NPQly2m7Fsu2FWF7nx4QnKQNuK1xCEojHHvW2AMJkkZG4YXFxxLCRLm644O4AA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=flOM4KCw3xqq3ViDL1gnhXisAc3XTx8SOCF/hHrLjVDP6KqMHY1RmyBa3WS442cOWjKPckkS7zuFRbzCG0H7bwpDzQKUIMaQQre6gmp8ZkwJN8pMCd4bZVroPqWhw6nd4o1IKcmmUFFfMfAvRr3i9VHibhvwnpM1mbWjUCuyacM= Received: by 10.150.150.3 with SMTP id x3mr319284ybd.93.1208361514430; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.229.9 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804160858k29f835a9w2a90d0ed399fe791@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:58:34 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8D49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <48049274.3090501@gmx.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20080416155918.08629ec0@localhost> <30b660a20804160646n14a12f71r589d1728c72db695@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8D49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: aaea4d4c20bb8047 Cc: Julian Reschke , LTRU Working Group , HTTP Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1516569977==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1516569977== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6742_25814750.1208361514346" ------=_Part_6742_25814750.1208361514346 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That works for me. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > Mark wrote: > > -- > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: typically a > primary language subtag followed optionally by a series of other subtags > such as script and region. > > -- > > I think that is either too specific or not specific enough J > > > > Perhaps: > > > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more subtags separated by > hyphens. Typically there will be a primary language subtag to which other > subtags are sometimes appended to indicate linguistic variations such as > script or region. > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 (Amazon) > > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Mark Davis > *Sent:* mercredi 16 avril 2008 06:46 > *To:* Martin Duerst > *Cc:* Julian Reschke; LTRU Working Group; HTTP Working Group > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) > > > > Agreed. Even that is incorrect, since there may not be a primary language > subtag, such as in the case of "x-duerst". So I'd recommend something more > like: > > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: > => > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: typically a > primary language subtag followed optionally by a series of other subtags > such as script and region. > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Martin Duerst > wrote: > > At 20:33 08/04/15, Julian Reschke wrote: > > > >OK, > > > >thanks for all the feedback so far. I (hopefully) have addressed many of > the issues; here's the new proposed text for 3.5: > > > >------ > >3.5. Language Tags > > > > A language tag, as defined in [RFC4646], identifies a natural > > language spoken, written, or otherwise conveyed by human beings for > > communication of information to other human beings. Computer > > languages are explicitly excluded. HTTP uses language tags within > > the Accept-Language and Content-Language fields. > > > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: > > > > language-tag = > > > > White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- > > insensitive. The name space of language subtags is administered by > > the IANA (see > > ). > > This is going very much in the right direction, but there > is some confusion about what a subtag means. Where it says > "A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags", > the first tag (e.g. 'en' in 'en-US') seems to not be a subtag, > but the subtag registry clearly also includes that as a subtag, > and RFC 4646 is using terminology consistent with that. > > Regards, Martin. > > > > Example tags include: > > > > en, en-US, es-419, az-Arab, x-pig-latin, man-Nkoo-GN > > > > See RFC 4646 for further information. > >------ > > > >(see also ). > > > > > >BR, Julian > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > -- > Mark > -- Mark ------=_Part_6742_25814750.1208361514346 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That works for me.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

Mark wrote:

--

In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: typically a primary language subtag followed optionally by a series of other subtags such as script and region.

--

I think that is either too specific or not specific enough J

 

Perhaps:

 

In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more subtags separated by hyphens. Typically there will be a primary language subtag to which other subtags are sometimes appended to indicate linguistic variations such as script or region.

 

Addison Phillips

Globalization Architect -- Lab126 (Amazon)

Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

 

Internationalization is not a feature.

It is an architecture.

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: mercredi 16 avril 2008 06:46
To: Martin Duerst
Cc: Julian Reschke; LTRU Working Group; HTTP Working Group


Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags)

 

Agreed. Even that is incorrect, since there may not be a primary language subtag, such as in the case of "x-duerst". So I'd recommend something more like:

>    In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A
>    primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags:
=>
In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: typically a primary language subtag followed optionally by a series of other subtags such as script and region.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:

At 20:33 08/04/15, Julian Reschke wrote:
>
>OK,
>
>thanks for all the feedback so far. I (hopefully) have addressed many of the issues; here's the new proposed text for 3.5:
>
>------
>3.5.  Language Tags
>
>    A language tag, as defined in [RFC4646], identifies a natural
>    language spoken, written, or otherwise conveyed by human beings for
>    communication of information to other human beings.  Computer
>    languages are explicitly excluded.  HTTP uses language tags within
>    the Accept-Language and Content-Language fields.
>
>    In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A
>    primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags:
>
>      language-tag  = <Language-Tag, defined in [RFC4646], Section 2.1>
>
>    White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case-
>    insensitive.  The name space of language subtags is administered by
>    the IANA (see
>    <http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry>).

This is going very much in the right direction, but there
is some confusion about what a subtag means. Where it says
"A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags",
the first tag (e.g. 'en' in 'en-US') seems to not be a subtag,
but the subtag registry clearly also includes that as a subtag,
and RFC 4646 is using terminology consistent with that.

Regards,   Martin.


>    Example tags include:
>
>      en, en-US, es-419, az-Arab, x-pig-latin, man-Nkoo-GN
>
>    See RFC 4646 for further information.
>------
>
>(see also <http://www.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/13>).
>
>
>BR, Julian
>

#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

_______________________________________________




--
Mark




--
Mark ------=_Part_6742_25814750.1208361514346-- --===============1516569977== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1516569977==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 09:29:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B239C3A6F86; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:29:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA8583A6F84 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:29:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.649, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uz8TU-WW7i59 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA203A6B35 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.4) with ESMTP id md50008000573.msg for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:38:15 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:38:15 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1992d49b69=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:29:47 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Mark Davis'" , "'Phillips, Addison'" References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <48049274.3090501@gmx.de><6.0.0.20.2.20080416155918.08629ec0@localhost><30b660a20804160646n14a12f71r589d1728c72db695@mail.gmail.com><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8D49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20804160858k29f835a9w2a90d0ed399fe791@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:30:27 +0100 Message-ID: <0e6a01c89fdf$2e02fbd0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <30b660a20804160858k29f835a9w2a90d0ed399fe791@mail.gmail.com> Thread-Index: Acif24lJenJrONDvRMeqnX6R/EW+SAAAiVuw X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:38:17 +0100 Cc: 'Julian Reschke' , 'LTRU Working Group' , 'HTTP Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1942114813==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1942114813== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0E6B_01C89FE7.8FC763D0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0E6B_01C89FE7.8FC763D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rather than re-inventing the wheel, why not just go with what is already written within RFC4646bis-12 ---- The language tag is composed of one or more parts, known as "subtags". Each subtag consists of a sequence of alphanumeric characters. Subtags are distinguished and separated from one another by a hyphen ("-", ABNF [RFC5234] %x2D). A language tag consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall tag. ---- By adding the information with regard to script and region you may encourage people to go ahead and create their own tags as opposed to reading RFC4646bis. There are many other issues to be considered e.g. suppress script. Best regards Debbie Garside _____ From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis Sent: 16 April 2008 16:59 To: Phillips, Addison Cc: Julian Reschke; LTRU Working Group; HTTP Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) That works for me. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: Mark wrote: -- In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: typically a primary language subtag followed optionally by a series of other subtags such as script and region. -- I think that is either too specific or not specific enough J Perhaps: In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more subtags separated by hyphens. Typically there will be a primary language subtag to which other subtags are sometimes appended to indicate linguistic variations such as script or region. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 (Amazon) Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis Sent: mercredi 16 avril 2008 06:46 To: Martin Duerst Cc: Julian Reschke; LTRU Working Group; HTTP Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) Agreed. Even that is incorrect, since there may not be a primary language subtag, such as in the case of "x-duerst". So I'd recommend something more like: > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: => In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: typically a primary language subtag followed optionally by a series of other subtags such as script and region. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Martin Duerst wrote: At 20:33 08/04/15, Julian Reschke wrote: > >OK, > >thanks for all the feedback so far. I (hopefully) have addressed many of the issues; here's the new proposed text for 3.5: > >------ >3.5. Language Tags > > A language tag, as defined in [RFC4646], identifies a natural > language spoken, written, or otherwise conveyed by human beings for > communication of information to other human beings. Computer > languages are explicitly excluded. HTTP uses language tags within > the Accept-Language and Content-Language fields. > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: > > language-tag = > > White space is not allowed within the tag and all tags are case- > insensitive. The name space of language subtags is administered by > the IANA (see > ). This is going very much in the right direction, but there is some confusion about what a subtag means. Where it says "A primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags", the first tag (e.g. 'en' in 'en-US') seems to not be a subtag, but the subtag registry clearly also includes that as a subtag, and RFC 4646 is using terminology consistent with that. Regards, Martin. > Example tags include: > > en, en-US, es-419, az-Arab, x-pig-latin, man-Nkoo-GN > > See RFC 4646 for further information. >------ > >(see also ). > > >BR, Julian > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Mark -- Mark ------=_NextPart_000_0E6B_01C89FE7.8FC763D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Rather =
than re-inventing the wheel, why not just go with what is already =
written within RFC4646bis-12 
----
   =
The language tag is composed of one or more parts, known as
   "subtags".  Each subtag consists of a sequence of alphanumeric
   characters.  Subtags are distinguished and separated from one another
   by a hyphen ("-", ABNF [RFC5234] %x2D).  A language tag consists of a
   "primary language" subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent
   subtags, each of which refines or narrows the range of languages
   identified by the overall tag.
 
----
By adding the information with regard to =
script and region you may encourage people to go ahead and create their =
own tags as opposed to reading RFC4646bis.  
There are many other issues to be considered =
e.g. suppress script.
Best regards
Debbie Garside

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark = Davis
Sent:=20 16 April 2008 16:59
To: Phillips, Addison
Cc: = Julian=20 Reschke; LTRU Working Group; HTTP Working Group
Subject: Re: = [Ltru]=20 Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags)

That works for me.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Phillips, = Addison=20 <addison@amazon.com> = wrote:

Mark=20 wrote:

--

In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: = typically a=20 primary language subtag followed optionally by a series of other = subtags=20 such as script and region.

--

I think = that is=20 either too specific or not specific enough J

 

Perhaps:

 

In = summary, a=20 language tag is composed of one or more subtags separated by = hyphens.=20 Typically there will be a primary language subtag to which other = subtags are=20 sometimes appended to indicate linguistic variations such as script = or=20 region.

 

Addison=20 Phillips

Globalization=20 Architect -- Lab126 (Amazon)

Chair -- = W3C=20 Internationalization Core WG

 

Internationalization=20 is not a feature.

It is an=20 architecture.

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]=20 On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: mercredi 16 avril = 2008=20 06:46
To: Martin Duerst
Cc: Julian Reschke; LTRU = Working=20 Group; HTTP Working Group


Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed = resolution for=20 Issue 13 (language tags)

 

Agreed. Even that is incorrect, = since there=20 may not be a primary language subtag, such as in the case of = "x-duerst". So=20 I'd recommend something more like:

>    In = summary,=20 a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A
>  =20  primary language tag and a possibly empty series of=20 subtags:
=3D>
In summary, a language tag is composed of one = or more=20 parts: typically a primary language subtag followed optionally by a = series=20 of other subtags such as script and region.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:

At 20:33 08/04/15, Julian Reschke=20 wrote:
>
>OK,
>
>thanks for all the feedback = so far.=20 I (hopefully) have addressed many of the issues; here's the new = proposed=20 text for 3.5:
>
>------
>3.5.  Language=20 Tags
>
>    A language tag, as defined in = [RFC4646],=20 identifies a natural
>    language spoken, written, = or=20 otherwise conveyed by human beings for
>   =  communication of=20 information to other human beings.  Computer
>  =20  languages are explicitly excluded.  HTTP uses language = tags=20 within
>    the Accept-Language and Content-Language = fields.
>
>    In summary, a language tag is = composed=20 of one or more parts: A
>    primary language tag = and a=20 possibly empty series of subtags:
>
>    =20  language-tag  =3D <Language-Tag, defined in [RFC4646], = Section=20 2.1>
>
>    White space is not allowed = within the=20 tag and all tags are case-
>    insensitive. =  The name=20 space of language subtags is administered by
>   =  the IANA=20 (see
>    <http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry<= /A>>).

This is going very much in the right direction, but there
is = some=20 confusion about what a subtag means. Where it says
"A primary = language=20 tag and a possibly empty series of subtags",
the first tag (e.g. = 'en' in=20 'en-US') seems to not be a subtag,
but the subtag registry = clearly also=20 includes that as a subtag,
and RFC 4646 is using terminology = consistent=20 with that.

Regards,   Martin.


>    Example tags=20 include:
>
>      en, en-US, es-419, = az-Arab,=20 x-pig-latin, man-Nkoo-GN
>
>    See RFC 4646 = for=20 further information.
>------
>
>(see also <http://www.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/13&g= t;).
>
>
>BR,=20 Julian
>

#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin=20 University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp     =  =20 mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

_______________________= ________________________

Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

<= /DIV>




--
Mark=20




--=20
Mark ------=_NextPart_000_0E6B_01C89FE7.8FC763D0-- --===============1942114813== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1942114813==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 09:52:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66473A6C4F; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:52:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81AFE28C1A9 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:00:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.557 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.557 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.958, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PNp6akdSUrEY for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 304E928C191 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Apr 2008 13:01:19 -0000 Received: from mail.greenbytes.de (EHLO [192.168.1.117]) [217.91.35.233] by mail.gmx.net (mp047) with SMTP; 16 Apr 2008 15:01:19 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19081FkSrR02yiWdob8whjqFf9gL5Jka9gtSSvAcJ KXJIqbPk85Zvz7 Message-ID: <4805F89C.1010802@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:01:16 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 Thunderbird/1.5.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <48049274.3090501@gmx.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20080416155918.08629ec0@localhost> <0df501c89fa3$207ae630$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: <0df501c89fa3$207ae630$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:52:24 -0700 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , 'HTTP Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Debbie Garside wrote: > I would agree with Martin and propose the following changes: > > From: > --- >>> In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A >>> primary language tag and a possibly empty series of subtags: > > To: > --- > > In summary, a language tag is composed of one or more parts: A > primary language subtag followed by a, possibly empty, series of subtags: > > --- > > best regards > > Debbie Garside Hi Debbie, thanks for the proposed text (which I'll include). BR, Julian _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 09:52:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9D7D28C438; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:52:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297B53A6864 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:10:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.885, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iz5ZXS5XPZ3o for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0062E3A6866 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Apr 2008 13:11:16 -0000 Received: from mail.greenbytes.de (EHLO [192.168.1.117]) [217.91.35.233] by mail.gmx.net (mp014) with SMTP; 16 Apr 2008 15:11:16 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+tuKYbY8atgHAVGU9YIaIKN51fqtZUPzFVeE976Y owqX8+AAkJHfps Message-ID: <4805FAF2.7050408@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:11:14 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 Thunderbird/1.5.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <48037FF9.9030103@gmx.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20080415105232.09284ec0@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA011FFFE92A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA011FFFE92A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:52:24 -0700 Cc: LTRU Working Group , HTTP Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Proposed resolution for Issue 13 (language tags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24gd3JvdGU6Cj4gSGksCj4gCj4gSSBoYXZlIGEgbnVtYmVyIG9mIHRo b3VnaHRzIG9uIHRoZSBwcm9wb3NlZCBjaGFuZ2VzLCB3aGljaCBhcHBlYXIgYmVsb3cgbXkgc2ln bmF0dXJlLgo+IAo+IEkgd291bGQgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGF0IEhUVFBiaXMgd2FpdCBpbiBvcmRlciB0 byByZWZlcmVuY2UgNDY0NmJpcywgd2hpY2ggaXMgaW4gV0cgbGFzdCBjYWxsLCBpZiBhdCBhbGwg cG9zc2libGUuIEkgbWVudGlvbiB0aGlzIGZvciB0d28gcmVhc29uczoKPiAKPiAxLiBJdCB3b3Vs ZCBiZSBiZXR0ZXIgdG8gcmVmZXJlbmNlIHRoZSB1cGRhdGUgdGhhbiB0aGUgc29vbi10by1iZS1v YnNvbGV0ZSB2ZXJzaW9uLCBldmVuIHRob3VnaCB0aGUgZGlmZmVyZW5jZXMgYXJlIG1pbm9yLgo+ IAo+IDIuIFRoZSBuZXcgdmVyc2lvbiBpbmNsdWRlcyBhbiBBQk5GIHByb2R1Y3Rpb24gb2YgdmFs dWUgdG8gSFRUUGJpcyAob2JzLWxhbmd1YWdlKS4KCk5vdyB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgZ29vZCBy ZWFzb24uCgpBcmUgeW91IHNheWluZyB0aGF0IEhUVFAgc2hvdWxkIHVzZSB0aGF0IHByb2R1Y3Rp b24gKG9icy1sYW5ndWFnZSwgCjxodHRwOi8vd3d3LnRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQt aWV0Zi1sdHJ1LTQ2NDZiaXMtMTIjc2VjdGlvbi0yLjIuOT4pLCAKaW5zdGVhZCBvZiBMYW5ndWFn ZS1UYWcgCig8aHR0cDovL3d3dy50b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtbHRydS00 NjQ2YmlzLTEyI3NlY3Rpb24tMi4xPik/CgpJJ20gbm8gZXhwZXJ0IG9uIHRoYXQgbWF0dGVyLi4u IGRvIHdlIGhhdmUgY29uc2Vuc3VzIG9uIHRoaXMgYW1vbmcgdGhvc2UgCndobyBhcmU/Cgo+PiBN YXJ0aW4gRMO8cnN0IHdyb3RlIGNvbW1lbnRzIG9uIEp1bGlhbidzIGVtYWlsIHdoaWNoIHNhaWQg aW4gcGFydDoKPj4+IChzZWUgYWxzbyA8aHR0cDovL3d3dzMudG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvd2cvaHR0 cGJpcy90cmFjL3RpY2tldC8xMz4pLgo+Pj4KPj4+Cj4gCj4+IFRoZSBhYm92ZSB0ZXh0IGdpdmVz IHRoZSBpbXByZXNzaW9uIHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgaXMgYSBzZXBhcmF0ZQo+PiBjb25jZXB0IG9mIGEg IkhUVFAgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnIi4gV2h5IG5vdCBqdXN0IHNheSBzb21ldGhpbmcKPj4gbGlrZSAi SFRUUCB1c2VzIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ3MgYXMgZGVmaW5lZCBpbiAuLi4iLgo+IAo+IEkgYWdyZWUg d2l0aCBNYXJ0aW4gaGVyZS4gSG93ZXZlciwgaXQgbWF5IGJlIHVzZWZ1bCB0byByZWZlcmVuY2Ug dGhlIFJGQyAzMDY2IExhbmd1YWdlLVRhZyBwcm9kdWN0aW9uIGluIFNlY3Rpb24gMi4yLjksIGZv ciBjb21wYXRpYmlsaXR5IHdpdGggZXhpc3RpbmcgUkZDIDI2MTYgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zLCBh bmQgdG8gc3BlY2lmeSAid2VsbC1mb3JtZWQiIGNvbmZvcm1hbmNlLgoKSW4gd2hpY2ggY2FzZSBp dCBtYXkgYmUgc2ltcGxlciB0byBqdXN0IGFsaWduIHRoZSBkZWZpbml0aW9uIGluIEhUVFBiaXMg CndpdGggdGhhdCBwcm9kdWN0aW9uIChpbnN0ZWFkIG9mIHJlZmVycmluZyBkaXJlY3RseSB0byBS RkMzMDY2KS4KCj4gU28gSSBzdHJvbmdseSBzdWdnZXN0IHlvdSByZWZlcmVuY2UgQkNQIDQ3Cj4+ IHJhdGhlciB0aGFuIGEgc3BlY2lmaWMgUkZDLgo+IAo+ICsxCgpJIGRvbid0IHNlZSBob3csIGFz IGxvbmcgYXMgd2Ugd2FudCB0byBpbmNsdWRlIGEgc3BlY2lmaWMgQUJORiBwcm9kdWN0aW9uLgoK Pj4+IFNlY3Rpb24gMy41LiwgcGFyYWdyYXBoIDM6Cj4+PiBPTEQ6Cj4+Pgo+Pj4gICAgICBsYW5n dWFnZS10YWcgID0gcHJpbWFyeS10YWcgKiggIi0iIHN1YnRhZyApCj4+PiAgICAgIHByaW1hcnkt dGFnICAgPSAxKjhBTFBIQQo+Pj4gICAgICBzdWJ0YWcgICAgICAgID0gMSo4QUxQSEEKPj4+Cj4+ PiBORVc6Cj4+Pgo+Pj4gICAgICBsYW5ndWFnZS10YWcgID0gPExhbmd1YWdlLVRhZywgZGVmaW5l ZCBpbiBbUkZDNDY0Nl0sIFNlY3Rpb24KPj4gMi4xPgo+Pgo+PiBTZWUgYWJvdmUuCj4gCj4gSXQg bWF5IGJlIGJldHRlciB0byByZWZlcmVuY2UgTGFuZ3VhZ2UtVGFnIGFzIGRlZmluZWQgaW4gMi4y LjkgZm9yIGNvbXBhdGliaWxpdHkuIFdoaWxlIGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGdvb2QgdG8gYWRvcHQgdGhl IG1vZGVybiBsYW5ndWFnZSB0YWcgQUJORiwgdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBzdWdnZXN0IHRoYXQgcmVjZWl2 ZXJzIHJlamVjdCB0YWdzIHRoYXQgd2VyZSB3ZWxsLWZvcm1lZCBidXQgbm8gbG9uZ2VyIGFyZS4K CkZvciB0aGUgcmVjb3JkOiB0aGF0J3MgaW4gUkZDNDY0NmJpcywgYnV0IG5vdCBpbiBSRkM0NjQ2 LCByaWdodD8KCiA+IC4uLgoKQlIsIEp1bGlhbgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 10:09:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4AA28C479; 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d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; bh=CGl+c1XiE32mgCu/Z0ieHf8NnvL+TowYry0EKQ8mv+o=; b=pCStlD7Gyc6cMCtJyxSUQ3JlUdy/saoOq1uRUzQbWrWApDxw88NJYmRHHFH8JFNYw+KNEtBjYi/YSL7vPJZxNJCrld7LHrZMAlkkcjFCm9G2MCjmTxjbVlG9DDMOytFAA4W7LzC9JisIxeaRp2IXflQmQKzLTOGYOJIdCGzMAMc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=W3+dl3JoVCrnHmgokWpxaT6k9XQXwJNm/GxKoXUhxkj+5ALubBn5rIiwyE1+U/gq2IFdsGwY31z/wcZBXGA7gV9fqXRj4CrK46Q1Sx53L+wMBL2Wh8sDeHF8AVK9VnDaVzQ8LGkoTwGbU8m5zzv2WXQixWIXXnZTH5Dc9yhHApk= Received: by 10.150.152.17 with SMTP id z17mr416542ybd.106.1208365812798; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.229.9 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804161010k777a0c0es4340e4ac9e2909b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:10:12 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "LTRU Working Group" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: e6510c6f05213657 Subject: [Ltru] Editorial fix X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1183523028==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1183523028== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7108_22023291.1208365812759" ------=_Part_7108_22023291.1208365812759 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On another mailing list, Debbie quoted the following, in http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html > A language tag consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall tag. This is actually false, since "x-foobar" doesn't follow this. My suggested fix: A language tag usually consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall tag. Anyone object to making this fix, or have a suggestion for better language? -- Mark ------=_Part_7108_22023291.1208365812759 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On another mailing list, Debbie quoted the following, in http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html

> A language tag consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall tag.

This is actually false, since "x-foobar" doesn't follow this. My suggested fix:

A language tag usually consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall tag.

Anyone object to making this fix, or have a suggestion for better language?

--
Mark ------=_Part_7108_22023291.1208365812759-- --===============1183523028== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1183523028==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 10:16:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4FC3A6F99; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:16:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35A7D3A6C48 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:15:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.995 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.995 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.603, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SkdPR1aK0w7l for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-0102.amazon.com (smtp-fw-0102.amazon.com [207.171.190.55]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C8928C49F for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:15:43 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,665,1199664000"; d="scan'208,217";a="299308320" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-0102.sea3.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Apr 2008 17:16:19 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3GHGHeX010356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:16:18 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:16:17 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:16:15 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Editorial fix Thread-Index: Acif5NGUnEiIHE8GSG6O4KmkE0bgDgAAGHlA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8F9F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20804161010k777a0c0es4340e4ac9e2909b5@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20804161010k777a0c0es4340e4ac9e2909b5@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Editorial fix X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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X-Spam-Score: -1.865 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.865 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.733, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSXdwdipp8th for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31543A68C9 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.4) with ESMTP id md50008000874.msg for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:35:02 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:35:02 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1992d49b69=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:26:35 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Phillips, Addison'" , "'Mark Davis'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <30b660a20804161010k777a0c0es4340e4ac9e2909b5@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8F9F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:27:23 +0100 Message-ID: <0e8b01c89fe7$2209aba0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8F9F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Thread-Index: Acif5NGUnEiIHE8GSG6O4KmkE0bgDgAAGHlAAAB4CYA= X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:35:03 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Editorial fix X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1011071303==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1011071303== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0E8C_01C89FEF.83CE13A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0E8C_01C89FEF.83CE13A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 Debbie _____ From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phillips, Addison Sent: 16 April 2008 18:16 To: Mark Davis; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Editorial fix I don't object to making the change. Best Regards, Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 (Amazon) Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis Sent: mercredi 16 avril 2008 10:10 To: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Editorial fix On another mailing list, Debbie quoted the following, in http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html > A language tag consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall tag. This is actually false, since "x-foobar" doesn't follow this. My suggested fix: A language tag usually consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall tag. Anyone object to making this fix, or have a suggestion for better language? -- Mark ------=_NextPart_000_0E8C_01C89FEF.83CE13A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1
 
Debbie

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phillips,=20 Addison
Sent: 16 April 2008 18:16
To: Mark Davis; = LTRU=20 Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Editorial = fix

I=20 don’t object to making the change.

 

Best=20 Regards,

 

Addison

 

Addison=20 Phillips

Globalization=20 Architect -- Lab126 (Amazon)

Chair=20 -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

 

Internationalization=20 is not a feature.

It=20 is an architecture.

 

From:=20 ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Mark=20 Davis
Sent: mercredi 16 avril 2008 10:10
To: LTRU = Working=20 Group
Subject: [Ltru] Editorial=20 fix

 

On another mailing = list, Debbie=20 quoted the following, in h= ttp://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html

= >=20 A language tag consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly = empty)=20 series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines or narrows the = range of=20 languages identified by the overall tag.

This is actually = false, since=20 "x-foobar" doesn't follow this. My suggested fix:

A language tag usually consists of a "primary = language"=20 subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of = which=20 refines or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall=20 tag.


Anyone object to making this fix, or have a = suggestion=20 for better language?

--
Mark=20

------=_NextPart_000_0E8C_01C89FEF.83CE13A0-- --===============1011071303== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1011071303==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 10:28:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C24528C4A0; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:28:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0393A6A40 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:28:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Me-Tc3sm8wcs for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C01028C4A0 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:28:16 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=dc9Kvw134fIcH8B2umDxoMC5e4MxC94cMSIrpProAEAOySQwTZ701X+PE3iHvjoh; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.26.75] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JmBRD-0001wB-Nm for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:28:52 -0400 Message-ID: <003001c89fdf$0ff384c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:29:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8885d2a9c731cc89117dd87cf422ccb7727dfcea1b5ffce8083350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.26.75 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: secdir review of draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - Adocument which touches on issues which could be of interest to many folks in the ltru WG is currently under review. The i-d is *very* short. If you care about language tagging, script directionality properties, or using markup to override Unicode directional formatting codes, I suggest reading and commenting on this document on the IETF@IETF.ORG mailing list, since it is currently in IETF last call. Randy > From: "David Harrington" > To: ; ; ; "'IETF Discussion'" > Cc: ; ; ; > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:11 PM > Subject: secdir review of draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06 > > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's > ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the > IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the > security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat > these comments just like any other last call comments. > > draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06 is a very short document and adds an > experimental attribute to the atom syndication format to indicate > whether text should be presented left-to-right or right-to-left. This > experimental approach would replace the current "direction guessing" > heuristic approach. > > I see nothing that leads me to believe there is any additional > security consideration that is not already discussed in the security > considerations of RFC4287 "The Atom Syndication Protocol". RFC4287 > considers the HTML/XHTML content, URIs, IRIs, Spoofing, and encryption > and digital signatures. > > David Harrington > dbharrington@comcast.net > ietfdbh@comcast.net > dharrington@huawei.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: secdir-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:secdir-bounces@mit.edu] > > On Behalf Of Samuel Weiler > > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 6:49 PM > > To: secdir@mit.edu > > Subject: [secdir] Assignments for April 18th > > > > Two new reviewers enter the rotation this week: Richard > > Barnes and Sam > > Hartman. > > > > We've moved the review instructions and related resources (e.g. the > > list of reviewers) to a wiki: > > http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview > > The mailing list may be moving from mit.edu to the IETF's servers > > within the next week. Stay tuned. > > > > Paul Hoffman is next in the rotation. > > > > -- Sam > > > > > > For telechat 2008-04-24 > > > > Lakshminath Dondeti T draft-ietf-mipshop-4140bis-02 > > Susan Thomson T draft-funk-eap-ttls-v0-04 > > > > Last calls and special requests: > > > > Rob Austein draft-klensin-rfc2821bis-09 > > Rob Austein draft-ietf-rmt-bb-norm-revised-04 > > Richard Barnes draft-ietf-lemonade-msgevent-05 > > Uri Blumenthal draft-ietf-smime-sha2-04 > > Pat Cain draft-ietf-rserpool-threats-09 > > Ran Canetti draft-ietf-rserpool-asap-19 > > Ran Canetti > draft-ietf-rserpool-common-param-16 > > Ran Canetti draft-ietf-rserpool-enrp-19 > > Ran Canetti draft-ietf-rserpool-policies-08 > > Lakshminath Dondeti draft-irtf-nmrg-snmp-measure-04 > > Donald Eastlake > draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-capabilities-02 > > Shawn Emery draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-interarea-03 > > Stephen Farrell draft-ietf-mpls-upstream-label-04 > > Tobias Gondrom > draft-ietf-mpls-multicast-encaps-07 > > Phillip Hallam-Baker draft-ietf-krb-wg-anon-05 > > Phillip Hallam-Baker > > draft-ietf-mpls-number-0-bw-te-lsps-09 > > Steve Hanna > > draft-ietf-tsvwg-rsvp-user-error-spec-06 > > David Harrington draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06 > > Sam Hartman draft-resnick-2822upd-06 > > Tero Kivinen > > draft-ietf-softwire-mesh-framework-04 > > Tero Kivinen draft-ietf-softwire-encaps-safi-00 > > Tero Kivinen > draft-ietf-softwire-encaps-ipsec-00 > > Tero Kivinen draft-ietf-softwire-v4nlri-v6nh-00 > > Julien Laganier > > draft-ietf-softwire-mesh-framework-04 > > Julien Laganier draft-ietf-softwire-encaps-safi-00 > > Julien Laganier > draft-ietf-softwire-encaps-ipsec-00 > > Julien Laganier draft-ietf-softwire-v4nlri-v6nh-00 > > Catherine Meadows draft-ietf-speechsc-mrcpv2-15 > > Sandy Murphy > > draft-vanelburg-sipping-served-user-04 > > Sandy Murphy > > draft-ietf-l1vpn-bgp-auto-discovery-04 > > Vidya Narayanan draft-ietf-nfsv4-nfsdirect-07 > > Vidya Narayanan draft-ietf-enum-experiences-09 > > Vidya Narayanan > > draft-ietf-l1vpn-ospf-auto-discovery-05 > > Blake Ramsdell draft-ietf-ospf-rfc2370bis-02 > > Stefan Santesson > > draft-iijima-netconf-soap-implementation-06 > > Stefan Santesson draft-ietf-pim-lasthop-threats-03 > > Juergen Schoenwaelder draft-freed-sieve-environment-05 > > Susan Thomson draft-carpenter-rfc2026-changes-02 > > Sam Weiler draft-ietf-pim-bsr-mib-04 > > Nico Williams draft-ietf-l1vpn-basic-mode-04 > > Kurt Zeilenga draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12 > > Larry Zhu > > draft-hautakorpi-sipping-uri-list-handling-refused-03 > > Glen Zorn draft-ietf-iptel-tel-reg-05 > > _______________________________________________ > > secdir mailing list > > secdir@mit.edu > > https://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/secdir > > > > > _______________________________________________ > IETF mailing list > IETF@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 12:03:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E19328C1D6; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:03:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 360143A6F7A for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:03:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.37 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.37 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.229, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JFSsL8ewt5WI for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C4828C4B0 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:03:20 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=r/VUJTNfXXwWt91CCLa9Y1CCA/hdJeCMcA9pZro1uv/ZDltlVezYp0/eiIsFIBHx; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.38.82] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JmCvE-0006OQ-1X for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:03:56 -0400 Message-ID: <002701c89fec$59799e60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20804140815w5d56933auefbdccdcbdfe034b@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c89e4b$897c0000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080414193212.GI28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89e94$80c98ce0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415021154.GK19045@mercury.ccil.org> <001001c89ea2$29a61560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080415170448.GJ28132@mercury.ccil.org> <002601c89f17$aff089a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20804151059m2e82e773y5a9b0c4f2aab883a@mail.gmail.com> <000b01c89f1d$7abf8960$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080416104620.GA10693@nic.fr> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:04:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8885d2a9c731cc8911711d4fdd77251c12953808e17bdb4170d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.38.82 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 4:46 AM > Subject: Re: Last open item ... > Every standard which performs canonicalization has the same > issues. For instance, NFC in Unicode is not stable (a string of > Unicode characters which is in NFC form today may not be in the > future). You have to add a few constraints, as the RFC 5198 does, to > have a "stable NFC". Wandering close to off-topic... "Every" is a bit of an over-statement. Some sets of ASN.1 encoding rules don't have this problem. If one is worried about instance naming (as in SNMP, SMUX, AgentX or with CMIP in a sub-agent architecture) having an utterly stable canonical form is essential. The SNMP-family protocols are particularly dependent on there being exactly one representation for an instance name. Consider the GetNext and GetBulk operations, for example. It is such a strong assumption that the topic never even comes up in most discussions of these protocols. But since I'm clearly the only one on this list who thinks this weak sense of "canonical" is broken, I've already given up arguing the point. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 15:13:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7065A3A6B37; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:13:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF0F3A6CBA for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:13:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P66eBk+flvFz for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1133A67D7 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:12:57 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,666,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="301022019" Received: from smtp-in-4102.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.133.41]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Apr 2008 22:13:33 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-4102.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id m3GMDWiH013777 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:13:32 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:13:32 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:13:29 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Last open item Thread-Index: Acicvg++Xodq9yQ0RICT6RVOQTJxWQDB/zvAABI2xGA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D9421@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001a01c89cbe$0d818350$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Last open item X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org KGVkaXRvciBoYXQgb24pDQoNCkRvbmUsIHdpdGggYSBtaW5vciBkaWZmZXJlbmNlLiBUaGUgaW5z ZXJ0ZWQgdGV4dCByZWFkczoNCg0KPHQ+QmVmb3JlIGZvcndhcmRpbmcgYSBuZXcgcmVnaXN0cmF0 aW9uIHRvIElBTkEsIHRoZSBMYW5ndWFnZSBTdWJ0YWcgUmV2aWV3ZXIgTVVTVCBlbnN1cmUgdGhh dCBhbGwgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGluIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgYXJlIG1ldCBhbmQgdGhhdCB2YWx1 ZXMgaW4gdGhlICdTdWJ0YWcnIGZpZWxkIG1hdGNoIGNhc2UgYWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBkZXNj cmlwdGlvbiBpbiA8eHJlZiB0YXJnZXQ9ImlhbmFmb3JtYXQiPjwveHJlZj4uPC90Pg0KDQpUaGUg ZW1waGFzaXMgb24gdGhlIGNhc2luZyByZXF1aXJlbWVudCBzZWVtZWQgYSBsaXR0bGUgYmFja3dh cmRzIDotKQ0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQoNCkFkZGlzb24gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJj aGl0ZWN0IC0tIExhYjEyNiAoQW1hem9uKQ0KQ2hhaXIgLS0gVzNDIEludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0 aW9uIENvcmUgV0cNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0 IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4NCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBG cm9tOiBsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzpsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmdd IE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZg0KPiBQZXRlciBDb25zdGFibGUNCj4gU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBBcHJp bCAxNiwgMjAwOCA2OjMxIEFNDQo+IFRvOiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsOyBMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXAN Cj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1XSBMYXN0IG9wZW4gaXRlbQ0KPg0KPiArMQ0KPiBQZXRlcg0K Pg0KPiA+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+ID4gRnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3VuY2Vz QGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYNCj4gT2YN Cj4gPiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsDQo+ID4gU2VudDogU2F0dXJkYXksIEFwcmlsIDEyLCAyMDA4IDk6NTYg QU0NCj4gPiBUbzogTFRSVSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwDQo+ID4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1XSBM YXN0IG9wZW4gaXRlbQ0KPiA+DQo+ID4gTWFyayBEYXZpcyA8bWFyayBkb3QgZGF2aXMgYXQgaWN1 IGRhc2ggcHJvamVjdCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPg0KPiA+ID4gQmVmb3JlIGZvcndhcmRp bmcgYSBuZXcgcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uIHRvIElBTkEsIHRoZSBMYW5ndWFnZSBTdWJ0YWcNCj4gPiA+ IFJldmlld2VyIE1VU1QgZW5zdXJlIHRoYXQgdmFsdWVzIGluIHRoZSAnU3VidGFnJyBmaWVsZCBt YXRjaCBjYXNlDQo+ID4gPiBhY2NvcmRpbmcgdG8gdGhlIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9uIGluIFNlY3Rpb24g My4xLCBhbmQgdGhhdCBhbGwgb3RoZXINCj4gPiA+IHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBvZiB0aGlzIHNwZWNp ZmljYXRpb24gYXJlIGZvbGxvd2VkLg0KPiA+ID4NCj4gPiA+IFJhdGlvbmFsZS4gSXQgaGFzIGJl ZW4gaW1wbGljaXQgaW4gYWxsIG9mIG91ciBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucyBhbmQgaW4NCj4gdGhlDQo+ID4g PiBkb2N1bWVudCB0aGF0IHRoZSBMU1IgbXVzdCBmb2xsb3cgYWxsIG9mIHRoZSBwb2xpY2llcyBp biB0aGUNCj4gZG9jdW1lbnQNCj4gPiA+IFthcmUgZm9sbG93ZWRdLCAqbm90IGp1c3QgY2FzaW5n Ki4gSG93ZXZlciwgaXQgaXNuJ3QgcmVhbGx5DQo+IGV4cGxpY2l0DQo+ID4gPiBpbiB0aGUgZG9j dW1lbnQsIGFuZCBzaG91bGQgYmUuIFRoaXMgaXMgYSBtaW5pbWFsIGNoYW5nZSB0byB0aGF0DQo+ IGVuZA0KPiA+ID4gKGFsdGhvdWdoIG90aGVyIHdvcmRpbmcgd291bGQgYmUgcG9zc2libGUpLg0K PiA+DQo+ID4gQWdyZWVkLiAgVGhpcyBjaGFuZ2UgaXMgc2hvcnQgYW5kIGhhcm1sZXNzLg0KPiA+ DQo+ID4gLS0NCj4gPiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJG QyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0DQo+ID4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZw0KPiA+IGh0dHA6 Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwNCj4gPiBodHRw Oi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YN Cj4gPg0KPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f DQo+ID4gTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPiBMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEx0cnVA aWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQpf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 17 01:28:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6423128C48B; 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17 Apr 2008 08:28:33 -0000 Message-ID: <48070A29.6070004@egt.ie> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:28:25 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20804161010k777a0c0es4340e4ac9e2909b5@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8F9F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <0e8b01c89fe7$2209aba0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: <0e8b01c89fe7$2209aba0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Editorial fix X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org To a terminologist, noticing that the word "usually" has been inserted = in a definition usually sets an alarm light going to indicate that the = definition in question is most probably intrinsically false or weak (or = otherwise unstable) so, although I have been recently been reluctant to = offer specific comments on the level of language used in this document, = largely because my asking technicians to supply definitions of their own = chosen technical terms at the very start of this work got me mostly = criticism, :-( here goes: 'Apart from the exception(s) specifically listed at [state where], a = language tag consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly = empty) series of subsequent subtags whose sole purpose is to refine or = narrow the range of languages identified by the overall tag.' I would also hold that this kind of 'fix' is too important to be classed = as merely 'editorial', as it changes a major concept on which the = validity or otherwise of the whole document depends. mg Scr=EDobh Mark Davis: > On another mailing list, Debbie quoted the following, in = > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html > > > A language tag consists of a "primary language" subtag and a = > (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines = > or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall tag. > > This is actually false, since "x-foobar" doesn't follow this. My = > suggested fix: > > A language tag usually consists of a "primary language" subtag and a = > (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines = > or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall tag. > > Anyone object to making this fix, or have a suggestion for better = > language? -- = Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 17 08:27:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE88B3A695F; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:27:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368EA3A6870 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:27:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.420, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id guncKsVpimBO for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B633A6BC5 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 2so67913ywt.49 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:27:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=It54XvuYTv2+BsFD+wH/PMVrIMvdh2fAUcNCkWRABng=; b=PRBAbR/Og2J8zebS5ua5DXZc0z7rfvMVq6e2FP34+JfwRNA+tBjeKRbZhDAp9FhruXcWSPW80WkZTo558RH44DNiYlbzy4zEQUgILIlAWxWWeD33MH/hACYgoLlrCJs5YNLS7sFbUitY2h454oiC2MX4n7SK5vPTw0vXI5BWK/s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Hc9fMVu1+ViOPOFdv1Sv0TFFoPWVfOHBsN1besv7t2AGUuLyY0AHAgQKFHBTv7JDVoeRt+P17Tgmk83Qm3MlWs1TbS7EFenM45pK6g55QLtomMN/He48YCT2ttV5y9ltcP4jF/jquSRvOE71ydfPt4vOQJhGSge7tZn7j65eOBY= Received: by 10.150.53.2 with SMTP id b2mr1821831yba.110.1208446057320; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.229.9 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804170827u279f809do15f818c375f28e25@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:27:37 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Marion Gunn" In-Reply-To: <48070A29.6070004@egt.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20804161010k777a0c0es4340e4ac9e2909b5@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8F9F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <0e8b01c89fe7$2209aba0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <48070A29.6070004@egt.ie> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c61b985ba6af165b Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Editorial fix X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1308981188==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 17 18:46:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E803A6DD9; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:46:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 124843A7013 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:46:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.377 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.377 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qk3JCVJ5YeDx for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A58B3A69B9 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 2so210868ywt.49 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:46:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; bh=aAueLj2IY+khTBR4jj6p67/Ci5gR2qUocgeK0ROgP6E=; b=b8N9Ro5S7OhS1Kl6Y6LwgpGrOskXkuHeiRcv6AuMIW+PSn+uecY3c8/g5EDK0rCo9KOymesbbaBapONuGwHk7bhw9f0p0IJJ0aA7dvxg3/AHwaV9eZRgVHsCZA0j92l4oVZ5YNkgZKQtXLNmH1LzNJVXrodJDmuvAfUf7a8EWgc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=Ons4VnPqxeMM9kdjbr8b1dvYRUA+Vn/kvSoLMFMQYrG+rIWkI3HN2CW+NqqutT3MWdQritQ9DYPdwD3NTpHLYL4tG234eNC5JYx+/7vVuLp1pSxqUdhpJsGlajvNoUQMgD4XsyLqaYI4ZlmgzqQ7MQLdRL7EC5dVVj8lcJcWhsY= Received: by 10.150.206.21 with SMTP id d21mr2677765ybg.161.1208483162650; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.229.9 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804171846g746ec7d1r4bf1fac1af4ab13f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:46:02 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "ietf-languages@iana.org" , "LTRU Working Group" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ad8a248136b2a733 Subject: [Ltru] fix for TP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1505138437==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1505138437== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_576_24830085.1208483162654" ------=_Part_576_24830085.1208483162654 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am forwarding a requested fix for TP/TL. > The ending date for TP and the beginning date for TL in the IANA > language subtag registry are wrong. ISO 3166-1 V/5 > (http://www.iso.org/iso/newsletter_v-5_east_timor.pdf), effective > 2002-05-20, indicates the code change. ISO 3166-1 V/6 > (http://www.iso.org/iso/newsletter_v-6_timor_leste.pdf), effective > 2002-11-15, indicates a name change from "East Timor" to > "Timor-Leste". Thus, TP's deprecation date should be 2002-05-20, which is the same date that the code is created. The person double-checked all of them, this was the only region subtag problem he found. I don't think the procedures allow this to be fixed yet, however (forwarding to LTRU). -- Mark ------=_Part_576_24830085.1208483162654 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am forwarding a requested fix for TP/TL.

> The ending date for TP and the beginning date for TL in the IANA
> language subtag registry are wrong.  ISO 3166-1 V/5
> (http://www.iso.org/iso/newsletter_v-5_east_timor.pdf), effective
> 2002-05-20, indicates the code change.  ISO 3166-1 V/6
> (http://www.iso.org/iso/newsletter_v-6_timor_leste.pdf), effective
> 2002-11-15, indicates a name change from "East Timor" to
> "Timor-Leste".  Thus, TP's deprecation date should be 2002-05-20, which is the same date that the code is created.

The person double-checked all of them, this was the only region subtag problem he found. I don't think the procedures allow this to be fixed yet, however (forwarding to LTRU).

--
Mark ------=_Part_576_24830085.1208483162654-- --===============1505138437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1505138437==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 18 05:16:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3C43A68F5; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C973A68DF for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:16:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UtqWmXNkgUUx for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C0C23A6BA4 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 90264 messnum 10016418 invoked from network[194.125.172.36/ts12-036.dublin.indigo.ie]); 18 Apr 2008 12:15:48 -0000 Received: from ts12-036.dublin.indigo.ie (194.125.172.36) by mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 90264) with SMTP; 18 Apr 2008 12:15:48 -0000 Message-ID: <480890EC.1040103@egt.ie> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:15:40 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis References: <30b660a20804161010k777a0c0es4340e4ac9e2909b5@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01200D8F9F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <0e8b01c89fe7$2209aba0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <48070A29.6070004@egt.ie> <30b660a20804170827u279f809do15f818c375f28e25@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20804170827u279f809do15f818c375f28e25@mail.gmail.com> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Editorial fix X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org U2Nyw61vYmggTWFyayBEYXZpczoKPiBUaGF0IGlzIG92ZXJibG93bi4KRmluZS4gR2l2ZW4gdGhl IGxpa2VsaWhvb2Qgb2YgY29udGludWluZyBkaWZmaWN1bHRpZXMgYXJvdW5kIHRoYXQgCmRlZmlu aXRpb24sIGRlc3BpdGUgcHJvdHJhY3RlZCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9mIGl0LCBJIGZlbHQgbW92ZWQg dG8gcHV0IG9uIAp0aGUgcmVjb3JkIG15IHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24uIFRoYW5rcyBmb3IgYWxsb3dpbmcg bWUgdG8gZG8gc28uCj4gVGhhdCBsaW5lIGlzIG1lcmVseSBhbiBpbnRyb2R1Y3Rvcnkgc2VudGVu Y2UgdG8gZ2l2ZSBwZW9wbGUgYSBzZW5zZSBvZiAKPiB3aGF0IGEgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnIGxvb2tz IGxpa2UsIG5vdCBhIGRlZmluaXRpb24uIFRoZSBwcmVjaXNlIGZvcm1hbCAKPiBkZWZpbml0aW9u IGlzIGJlbG93IGl0LCBhbmQgYW55b25lIHJlYWRpbmcgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHdpbGwgc2VlIGl0 LiAKPiBUaGVyZSBpcyBubyBuZWVkIHRvIG1ha2UgYW4gaW50cm9kdWN0b3J5IHN0YXRlbWVudCBo YXJkIHRvIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgCj4gLS0gd2UgaGF2ZSBwbGVudHkgb2Ygb3Bwb3J0dW5pdHkgdG8g ZG8gdGhhdCBsYXRlci4uLgpJcyBpdCBwb3NzaWJsZSB0byBkZXRlY3QgYSBub3RlIG9mIGh1bW91 ciBpbiB0aGUgYWJvdmU/IEZvciBteSBwYXJ0LCBub3QgCnByZXN1bWluZyB0byBkbyBzbywgb2Yg Y291cnNlLgptZwo+Cj4gTWFyawo+IE9uIFRodSwgQXByIDE3LCAyMDA4IGF0IDE6MjggQU0sIE1h cmlvbiBHdW5uIDxtZ3VubkBlZ3QuaWUgCj4gPG1haWx0bzptZ3VubkBlZ3QuaWU+PiB3cm90ZTog Cj4gJ0FwYXJ0IGZyb20gdGhlIGV4Y2VwdGlvbihzKSBzcGVjaWZpY2FsbHkgbGlzdGVkIGF0IFtz dGF0ZSB3aGVyZV0sIGEgCj4gbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnIGNvbnNpc3RzIG9mIGEgInByaW1hcnkgbGFu Z3VhZ2UiIHN1YnRhZyBhbmQgYSAocG9zc2libHkgCj4gZW1wdHkpIHNlcmllcyBvZiBzdWJzZXF1 ZW50IHN1YnRhZ3Mgd2hvc2Ugc29sZSBwdXJwb3NlIGlzIHRvIHJlZmluZSBvciAKPiBuYXJyb3cg dGhlIHJhbmdlIG9mIGxhbmd1YWdlcyBpZGVudGlmaWVkIGJ5IHRoZSBvdmVyYWxsIHRhZy4nIC4u LgoKLS0gCgoKTWFyaW9uIEd1bm4gKiBFR1RlbyAoRXN0YWIuMTk5MSkKMjcgUMOhaXJjIGFuIEZo w6lpdGhsaW5uLCBCYWlsZSBhbgpCaMOzdGhhaXIsIENvLiDDgXRoYSBDbGlhdGgsIMOJaXJlLgoq IG1ndW5uQGVndC5pZSAqIGVhbW9ubkBlZ3QuaWUgKgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Apr 20 23:30:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A99D028C3DA; 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21 Apr 2008 06:30:01 -0000 Message-ID: <003101c8a379$21bb1c20$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" , Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 00:30:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] fix for TP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyA8bWFyayBkb3QgZGF2aXMgYXQgaWN1IGRhc2ggcHJvamVjdCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3 cm90ZToKCj4gSSBhbSBmb3J3YXJkaW5nIGEgcmVxdWVzdGVkIGZpeCBmb3IgVFAvVEwuCj4KPj4g VGhlIGVuZGluZyBkYXRlIGZvciBUUCBhbmQgdGhlIGJlZ2lubmluZyBkYXRlIGZvciBUTCBpbiB0 aGUgSUFOQSAKPj4gbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugc3VidGFnIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IGFyZSB3cm9uZy4gIElTTyAzMTY2 LTEgVi81IAo+PiAoaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pc28ub3JnL2lzby9uZXdzbGV0dGVyX3YtNV9lYXN0X3Rp bW9yLnBkZiksIGVmZmVjdGl2ZSAKPj4gMjAwMi0wNS0yMCwgaW5kaWNhdGVzIHRoZSBjb2RlIGNo YW5nZS4gIElTTyAzMTY2LTEgVi82IAo+PiAoaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pc28ub3JnL2lzby9uZXdzbGV0 dGVyX3YtNl90aW1vcl9sZXN0ZS5wZGYpLCBlZmZlY3RpdmUgCj4+IDIwMDItMTEtMTUsIGluZGlj YXRlcyBhIG5hbWUgY2hhbmdlIGZyb20gIkVhc3QgVGltb3IiIHRvIAo+PiAiVGltb3ItTGVzdGUi LiAgVGh1cywgVFAncyBkZXByZWNhdGlvbiBkYXRlIHNob3VsZCBiZSAyMDAyLTA1LTIwLCAKPj4g d2hpY2ggaXMgdGhlIHNhbWUgZGF0ZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBjb2RlIGlzIGNyZWF0ZWQuCj4KPiBUaGUg cGVyc29uIGRvdWJsZS1jaGVja2VkIGFsbCBvZiB0aGVtLCB0aGlzIHdhcyB0aGUgb25seSByZWdp b24gc3VidGFnIAo+IHByb2JsZW0gaGUgZm91bmQuIEkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgdGhlIHByb2NlZHVy ZXMgYWxsb3cgdGhpcyB0byBiZSBmaXhlZCAKPiB5ZXQsIGhvd2V2ZXIgKGZvcndhcmRpbmcgdG8g TFRSVSkuCgpUaGlzIGlzIGEgYml0IGVtYmFycmFzc2luZywgYWN0dWFsbHksIHNpbmNlIEkgcHJv YmFibHkgY2FtZSB1cCB3aXRoIHRoYXQgCmRhdGUgYW5kIHRoaXMgaXMgdGhlIHNvcnQgb2YgdHJp dmlhbCBkZXRhaWwgSSB1c3VhbGx5IGdldCByaWdodCAocGVyaGFwcyAKYXQgdGhlIGV4cGVuc2Ug b2YgZGVlcGVyIGlzc3VlcykuCgpIYXZpbmcgc2FpZCB0aGF0Li4uCgpOb3Qgb25seSBkbyB0aGUg Y3VycmVudCBydWxlcyBub3QgYWxsb3cgdXMgdG8gY2hhbmdlIGEgRGVwcmVjYXRlZCBkYXRlLCAK SSdtIG5vdCBzdXJlIGl0IG1hdHRlcnMgYW55IG1vcmUsIHNpbmNlIExUUlUgaXMgdGFsa2luZyBh Ym91dCBjaGFuZ2luZyAKdGhlIHJ1bGVzIHRvIGFsbG93IHN1YnRhZ3MgdG8gYmUgdW4tZGVwcmVj YXRlZCwgYW5kIGhhcyBzdGF0ZWQgdGhhdCAKcmVjb25zdHJ1Y3RpbmcgdGhlIHN0YXRlIG9mIHRo ZSBSZWdpc3RyeSBhcyBvZiBhIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgZGF0ZSBpcyBubyAKbG9uZ2VyIGEgZ29hbC4g IEl0IG1heSBiZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBleGFjdCBkYXRlIG9mIGRlcHJlY2F0aW9uIHdpbGwgYmVjb21l IAp0b3RhbGx5IGlycmVsZXZhbnQsIGFuZCBvbmx5IHRoZSBzdGF0dXMgKGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgb3Ig bm90KSB3aWxsIG1hdHRlci4KCkluIGFueSBldmVudCwgc2luY2UgdGhlIFJlZ2lzdHJ5IGRpZCBu b3QgZXhpc3QgdW50aWwgMjAwNSwgaXQgY2FuJ3QgbWFrZSAKbXVjaCBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIG9uIHdo aWNoIGRhdGUgaW4gMjAwMiBhIGdpdmVuIHN1YnRhZyBpcyBkZWNsYXJlZCB0byBoYXZlIApiZWVu IGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICog IFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEu aWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVz dHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YgCgpfX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApM dHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Apr 20 23:37:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF803A6B49; 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21 Apr 2008 06:37:55 -0000 Message-ID: <003501c8a37a$3c468010$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 00:37:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: [Ltru] Mutability of Preferred-Value? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RHJhZnQtNDY0NmJpcy0xMywgU2VjdGlvbiAzLjEuNiBub3cgaW5jbHVkZXMgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2lu ZyB0d28gcGFzc2FnZXMsIAp3aGljaCBsZWF2ZSBtZSBtb3JlIGNvbmZ1c2VkIHRoYW4gZXZlciBh cyB0byB3aGV0aGVyIFByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZXMgaW4gCnRoZSA0NjQ1YmlzIFJlZ2lzdHJ5IG5l ZWQgdG8gYmUgY2hhbmdlZCB0byBlbGltaW5hdGUgY2hhaW5zIHN1Y2ggYXMgCmktaGFrIC0+IHpo LWhha2thIC0+IGhhazoKCjEuCiJUaGUgZmllbGQgJ1ByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZScgTVVTVCBOT1Qg YmUgbW9kaWZpZWQgb25jZSBjcmVhdGVkIGluIHRoZSAKcmVnaXN0cnkuICBUaGUgZmllbGQgTUFZ IGJlIGFkZGVkIHRvIHJlY29yZHMgYWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBydWxlcyBpbiAKU2VjdGlvbiAz LjMuIgoKMi4KIlN1cHBvc2UgdGhhdCBzdWJ0YWcgWCBoYXMgYSBQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWUgb2Yg WS4gSWYgWSBjaGFuZ2VzIHRvIGhhdmUgCmEgUHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlIG9mIFosIHRoZW4gdGhl IFByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZSBmb3IgWCBNVVNUIGFsc28gY2hhbmdlIAp0byBiZSBaLiIKCkkgbmVl ZCB0byBrbm93IHdoaWNoIHdheSB3ZSBhcmUgZ29pbmcgdG8gZ28gYmVmb3JlIGdlbmVyYXRpbmcg YSBuZXcgCmRyYWZ0LTQ2NDViaXMuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRv LCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0 cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8v d3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YgCgpf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 21 08:32:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C9628C1E4; 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d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=LmDetPM67ZFLPQNQzo9tXr6pK2rGbyOAElt0d+syR+c=; b=dwHFqYBN53pG7PcMX/2GtX5vBaGEQEHRKd83Lq0Ltr00GreOvnkWlzdqDgZ/eAeDOYhSH00C8i+wyfvcwZ7QV3HbjhLqMTuaAkLw6ScSHoee9jJj14gSg/SRpC/ANJE7LAVEKTnIebfWbYFhDEwtkbJabMwS4rNJQi3q8RADBFk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=bJqn4nOWJKPBwQXxvfLI3tW2usDvAPLsYOuku5omC0tZIqb9qjE2uhenc4R4E2bq4utKulNaff4Zkef2bTh1xBdF5u8Y8lJJTVMy9gYE9ZnbW3yfd8YFRrC8wnHdlaB8Sr9SbJvgSZH5H0oZLBHaj4eFmeQquxK28iaFe1ZBmGI= Received: by 10.100.5.16 with SMTP id 16mr12469252ane.102.1208791933560; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.112.4 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804210832p4fce5d6cpf15ed55cadb99771@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:32:11 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: <003101c8a379$21bb1c20$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003101c8a379$21bb1c20$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 08a1141fb28f8505 Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] fix for TP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0847606469==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 21 11:17:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA913A6BF9; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:17:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC9C28C17A for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:17:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5cAhDSDKrqQM for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1078A28C29C for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:16:29 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="26415701" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 21 Apr 2008 18:16:35 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3LIGYrq020121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:16:35 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.26]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:16:34 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:16:32 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] fix for TP Thread-Index: AcijeSVxgrdUx5YARwaryMWwnKu5ZgAW3GRA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0132B24D51@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <003101c8a379$21bb1c20$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <003101c8a379$21bb1c20$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] fix for TP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (removing ietf-languages) Doug wrote: > Not only do the current rules not allow us to change a Deprecated date, > I'm not sure it matters any more, since LTRU is talking about changing > the rules to allow subtags to be un-deprecated, and has stated that > reconstructing the state of the Registry as of a particular date is no > longer a goal. It may be that the exact date of deprecation will > become > totally irrelevant, and only the status (deprecated or not) will matter. Hmm... removing the one-way stability of deprecation means removing additional text in the section on Preferred-Value, since that section contains text describing the ability to reconstruct the registry as at a particular date. It also means a more substantial edit of the iana stability section, etc. Fixing up the various bits of text required a more substantial edit than we've had of late. This is now posted on Inter-Locale: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.xml hwdiff is: http://tinyurl.com/4naomd Side-by-side diff is: http://tinyurl.com/48cuy9 Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 23 13:12:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839E13A6B45; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:12:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4785E3A6818 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:12:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NEejK-5alYEv for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4477A3A6B45 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:12:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=qih4z0udkcxylCKyN0uvjNPvh3RlN4LQbLjsQAfoTPl/lC2iHaE1973PlLuHl4W9; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.167.78.216] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JolKj-00027m-5O for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:12:49 -0400 Message-ID: <001301c8a576$2d46d580$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:13:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8885d2a9c731cc8911703ed74e214c71ad251b278bf1b94c208350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.167.78.216 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - Forwarded for your information. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michelle Cotton" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:49 PM Subject: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML IETF Community: IANA is currently engaged in a project to convert the IETF related registries to XML to provide the community with multiple ways of viewing registry information. When conversion to XML is done, XML will become the source format for the registries and the current formats of html and plain text will be generated from the XML source. Stylesheets and schemas will also be made available together with XML. Users will be able to access the registries in new and useful ways, while still having the ability to see the registries in the original style. Part of the conversion requires IANA to "clean-up" the registries in order to fit with the XML schemas. IANA is not changing the data in the registries. IANA is cleaning up the formatting including regularizing spacing and providing consistent display of titles, references and registration procedures. For those registries that need extensive format changes, IANA will be working with the appropriate working groups and area directors to make sure that the format changes do not affect the content of the registry. Those registries that are required to be in specific formats, for example the MIBs and language subtags registries, will still be produced in the existing formats. IANA has consulted with the IETF XML directorate to make sure that the XML schemas are properly formulated. Certain decisions on schemas reflect the needs of IANA in maintaining the registries moving forward. In the coming months, cleaned-up versions of the registries will begin appearing on the IANA website. If you notice any content issues with the updated versions, or if they are not accessible, please notify IANA staff immediately and we will work with the appropriate parties to correct any inconsistencies. We look forward to providing the XML versions of the registries to better serve the community's needs. IANA will announce in advance when the registry conversion will be completed. After the conversion is complete, we intend to introduce new services such as the ability to subscribe to be notified when specific registries are updated Thank you, Michelle Cotton IANA IETF Liaison Email: michelle.cotton@icann.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > IETF mailing list > IETF@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 23 13:43:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039533A6E58; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:43:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52BDB3A6E5E for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L6dkAODdsfDH for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3093B28C2F2 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jolmt-0005ue-1x; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:41:55 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:41:55 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080423204154.GA13977@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001301c8a576$2d46d580$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001301c8a576$2d46d580$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > Forwarded for your information. The relevant section for us seems to be: > Those registries that are required to be in specific formats, for > example the MIBs and language subtags registries, will still be > produced in the existing formats. -- In politics, obedience and support John Cowan are the same thing. --Hannah Arendt http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 23 13:49:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137F73A6DEB; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:49:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0FC3A6DC9 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:48:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wOMvY6nlkQEb for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA4E328C1F4 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:45:49 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="28126626" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 23 Apr 2008 20:45:54 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3NKjrj1030858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:45:53 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.26]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:45:53 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:45:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Fw: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML Thread-Index: AcilfmyBTIUWf9qkQOCNf8d8T3kB9gABHb4A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0133148B4A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001301c8a576$2d46d580$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001301c8a576$2d46d580$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (Randy forwarded a message about IANA's conversion of registries to XML) My forehead hurts from where it has been banged on the table. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 23 13:56:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0913A6AB2; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:56:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356073A6D3B for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id As5khIUgV3sY for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 591AC3A6C5B for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:56:03 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,701,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="302913876" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 23 Apr 2008 20:56:07 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3NKu6F7014663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:56:07 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.26]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:56:07 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Randy Presuhn Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:56:06 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Fw: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML Thread-Index: Acilg7n1WoOjQas2SniHNhmUAsU+3wAAJ7Jg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0133148B64@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001301c8a576$2d46d580$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080423204154.GA13977@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080423204154.GA13977@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > The relevant section for us seems to be: > > > Those registries that are required to be in specific formats, for > > example the MIBs and language subtags registries, will still be > > produced in the existing formats. Yes, but the word "produced" suggests an XML repository somewhere. Am I reading that wrong? Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 23 13:59:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89963A6D63; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:59:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAFF3A6D63 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:59:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lR7sucSYAeKU for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D343A6D0A for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jom3f-0006yM-On; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:59:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:59:15 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080423205915.GD13977@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001301c8a576$2d46d580$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080423204154.GA13977@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0133148B64@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0133148B64@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > Yes, but the word "produced" suggests an XML repository somewhere. Am > I reading that wrong? Maybe so. However, as long as IANA's input format and output format are what we expect, we don't care if they use EDLIN or the world's hairiest rat's nest of software to do the job. See also below. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Today an interactive brochure website, tomorrow a global content management system that leverages collective synergy to drive "outside of the box" thinking and formulate key objectives into a win-win game plan with a quality-driven approach that focuses on empowering key players to drive-up their core competencies and increase expectations with an all-around initiative to drive up the bottom-line. --Alex Papadimoulis _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 25 17:54:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E3A3A6D47; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:54:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA27E3A6D47 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:54:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.096, BAYES_40=-0.185, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bixA82YpcEab for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout06.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout06-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CF59B3A6C74 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10310 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2008 00:54:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout06-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.227) with ESMTP; 26 Apr 2008 00:54:41 -0000 Message-ID: <003901c8a738$1c604ee0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 18:54:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; 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27 Apr 2008 18:05:42 -0000 Message-ID: <000901c8a891$4e48d760$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20080427082529.402B825977C@eikenes.alvestrand.no> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:05:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ISO639-3@sil.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Addition to ISO 639-3: [lyg] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org KG1vdmluZyB0aGlzIHRvcGljIHRvIExUUlUpCgpEZWJiaWUgR2Fyc2lkZSA8ZGViYmllIGF0IGlj dG1hcmtldGluZyBkb3QgY28gZG90IHVrPiB3cm90ZToKCj4+PiBJIHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gc2Vl IGtoYSB3aXRoIHRoZSBjb21tZW50IGFzIG1lbnRpb25lZCBwcmV2aW91c2x5IGFuZCAKPj4+IGFs c28sIGlmIHBvc3NpYmxlLCBhIGNvbW1lbnQgb24gbHlnIHNheWluZyAic2VlIGFsc28ga2hhIi4g VGFrZW4gCj4+PiB3aXRoIHRoZSBjaGFuZ2UvcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uIGRhdGUsIHRoaXMgdGhlbiBw cm92aWRlcyBhIGNvbXBsZXRlIGFuZCAKPj4+IHRyYWNrZWQgY2hhbmdlIGhpc3Rvcnkgd2l0aGlu IHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeS4KPj4KPj4gWW91J2QgaGF2ZSB0byBjb252aW5jZSB0aGUgNDY0NWJpcyBh dXRob3IgdG8gZG8gdGhpcywgaW4gdGhlIFJGQyA0NjQ2IAo+PiBzdWJ0YWcgcmVnaXN0cnkgSVNP IDYzOS0zIHN1YnRhZ3Mgc3VjaCBhcyAibHlnIiBkb24ndCBleGlzdCwgYW5kIGEgCj4+IGtoYS1j b21tZW50IHRhbGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgYW4gdW5yZWdpc3RlcmVkIGx5Zy1zdWJ0YWcgbWFrZXMgbm8g c2Vuc2UuCj4KPiBZZXMgdGhpcyBpcyBhIHByb2JsZW0uIFRoZSBzb29uZXIgUkZDNDY0KmJpcyBh cmUgcHVibGlzaGVkIGFuZCBJU08gCj4gNjM5LTMgbWFkZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgdGhlIGJldHRlci4g IFBlcmhhcHMgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIGF3YWl0IHRoZSAKPiBwdWJsaWNhdGlvbiBvZiB0aGVzZSBSRkMn cyBiZWZvcmUgd2UgdHJ5IHRvIGRvIGFueXRoaW5nLgoKSSdtIG5vdCBvcHBvc2VkIHRvIGFkZGlu ZyBEZWJiaWUncyBjb21tZW50IHRvIHRoZSAna2hhJyBzdWJ0YWcgaW4gCmRyYWZ0LTQ2NDViaXMs IGFzIGxvbmcgYXMgdGhpcyBpcyBub3Qgd3JpdHRlbiBpbnRvIHRoZSBwcm9jZXNzLiAgSSdkIApo YXRlIHRvIHNlZSBwZW9wbGUgc2NyZWFtICJwcm9jZXNzIGZhaWx1cmUiIGlmIE1pY2hhZWwgYW5k IEkgZG9uJ3QgY2F0Y2ggCmV2ZXJ5IHNpbWlsYXIgaW5zdGFuY2UgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZS4gIFRo ZXNlIGFyZSBqdXN0IGNvbW1lbnRzLCBhZnRlciAKYWxsLCBhbmQgbm90IG5vcm1hdGl2ZSBpbiBh bnkgd2F5LgoKSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIENFIHRoYXQgYSBjb21tZW50IHVuZGVyICdseWcnIHNlZW1z IHVubmVjZXNzYXJ5LiAgUGVvcGxlIAp3aG8gaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHVzaW5nICdraGEnIHRvIHRhZyBM eW5naGdhbSBtYXkgbmVlZCB0byBiZSBkaXJlY3RlZCB0byB0aGUgCm5ldyAnbHlnJyBzdWJ0YWcs IGJ1dCBJIGRvbid0IHNlZSB0aGUgcHVycG9zZSBpbiBwb2ludGluZyBwZW9wbGUgZnJvbSAKJ2x5 ZycgYmFjayB0byAna2hhJyAoZXhjZXB0IHRvIHByb3ZpZGUgYSA2MzktNi1saWtlIHRheG9ub215 LCB3aGljaCBJIAphc3N1bWUgd2lsbCBiZSBhZGVxdWF0ZWx5IHByb3ZpZGVkIGJ5IDYzOS02KS4g IFdlIGFscmVhZHkgY2FuJ3QgcHJvdmlkZSAKYSBjb21wbGV0ZSBhbmQgdHJhY2tlZCBjaGFuZ2Ug aGlzdG9yeSwgYmVjYXVzZSBvZiB0aGUgcG9zc2liaWxpdHkgb2YgCnVuLWRlcHJlY2F0aW5nIHN1 YnRhZ3MgYW5kIGNoYW5naW5nIG9yIHJlbW92aW5nIFByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZXMuCgpJZiBub2Jv ZHkgb2JqZWN0cyAtLSBhbmQgc29vbiwgYmVjYXVzZSBJJ20gd29ya2luZyBvbiBkcmFmdC00NjQ1 YmlzLTA1IAp0b2RheSAtLSBJJ2xsIGFkZCB0aGUgJ2toYScgY29tbWVudCB0byB0aGUgbmV3IFJl Z2lzdHJ5IGNvbnRlbnRzLCAKd2l0aG91dCBjb21tZW50IGluIHRoZSBwcm9zZS4KCklmIHRoaXMg c2l0dWF0aW9uIHdpdGggJ2toYScgYW5kICdseWcnIGlzIGEgYmlnIHByb2JsZW0sIG1heWJlIHdl IHNob3VsZCAKY29uc2lkZXIgZ2V0dGluZyBjbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9uIGZyb20gSVNPIDYzOS0zIG9u IHdoYXQgY2lyY3Vtc3RhbmNlcyB3aWxsIApjYXVzZSB0aGVtIHRvIG5hcnJvdyB0aGUgc2NvcGUg b2YgYSBzdWJ0YWcsIGFzIHdlIGZlZWwgdGhleSBoYXZlIGRvbmUgCndpdGggS2hhc2kuCgotLQpE b3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4g IzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFy dGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6 Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 28 09:49:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFFE3A68AF; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:49:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DD643A6959 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:49:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JPO4JZH6H33Q for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EABA3A68AF for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:49:12 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,717,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="304348197" Received: from smtp-in-4102.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.133.41]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 28 Apr 2008 16:49:14 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4102.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id m3SGnDIZ025692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:49:13 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.26]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:49:13 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:49:11 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Addition to ISO 639-3: [lyg] Thread-Index: AciokVQ1VqmFEX1dTqa1qEOypmTrUAAvWdZw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013345E5D3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080427082529.402B825977C@eikenes.alvestrand.no> <000901c8a891$4e48d760$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <000901c8a891$4e48d760$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Addition to ISO 639-3: [lyg] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug wrote: > I'm not opposed to adding Debbie's comment to the 'kha' subtag in > draft-4645bis, as long as this is not written into the process. I'd > hate to see people scream "process failure" if Michael and I don't > catch > every similar instance in the future. These are just comments, after > all, and not normative in any way. The registration process exists, in part, for people to register information about subtags that they deem useful, interesting, or necessary. It should not be incumbent upon the LSR or anyone else to officially take care of such things in subtags other than the ones they officially have to register. Thus, if (hypothetically) Debbie wanted a comment, it would be up to her to request it. It is not a process failure if the LSR fails to request the change for someone else. That is, if we were under 4646bis now, Michael/Doug would have an 'lyg' subtag record that they would be responsible for producing (although the process allows anyone to submit the request). Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 28 10:19:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6739428C191; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:19:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9C928C1A4 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:19:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gh8aGAFmAvbN for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1460328C352 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008039408.msg for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:26:43 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:26:43 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1100467781e=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:17:55 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <20080427082529.402B825977C@eikenes.alvestrand.no> <000901c8a891$4e48d760$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:19:24 +0100 Message-ID: <197401c8a954$02e75080$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <000901c8a891$4e48d760$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Thread-Index: Aciokh+qwYXUcOAfQI+zYwEI++yUQAAvng9w X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:26:44 +0100 Cc: 'Frank Ellermann' , ISO639-3@sil.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Addition to ISO 639-3: [lyg] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug wrote: > I'm not opposed to adding Debbie's comment to the 'kha' > subtag in draft-4645bis, as long as this is not written into > the process. I'd hate to see people scream "process failure" > if Michael and I don't catch every similar instance in the > future. These are just comments, after all, and not > normative in any way. Thanks. Although I think that this should form part of the formal process. I think it should be written into the RFC as a "Should" for this type of situation. > > I agree with CE that a comment under 'lyg' seems unnecessary. > People who have been using 'kha' to tag Lynghgam may need to > be directed to the new 'lyg' subtag, but I don't see the > purpose in pointing people from 'lyg' back to 'kha' (except > to provide a 639-6-like taxonomy, which I assume will be > adequately provided by 639-6). We already can't provide a > complete and tracked change history, because of the > possibility of un-deprecating subtags and changing or > removing Preferred-Values. Obviously we cannot change what has gone before. However, my feeling is that we should look at the use case for 'lyg'. Let me give you a use case scenario: Joe Bloggs is a new employee within Company A; working with a Meta Data Registry. He started work a week after 'lyg' was added. He receives a request from top management within Company A to find all documents relating to Lyngngam. Having searched the LSR for Lyngngam, establishing the correct subtag to perform a match, he searches his Meta Data Registry for anything tagged with 'lyg'. He finds nothing. Where are the 'lyg' documents that his top management knows are in his Meta Data Registry? With a comment field within 'lyg' directing Joe to 'kha' he can do a secondary match. With no comment he has no chance of finding the documents unless he knows enough about the LSR to do a search for comments regarding 'lyg' (which would bring up my proposed comment within 'kha' but only in this particular instance). At the moment these comments may or may not be there according to the rules of the current RFC. I don't think this is good enough. We can do better and I don't think it will cost a lot to do it. A simple rule that states "where the meaning of a subtag is narrowed and a new subtag is issued as a result both subtags should have comment fields denoting the change history". A simple "watch this page" scenario on the ISO 639-3 change notification page would assist in the process. > If nobody objects -- and soon, because I'm working on > draft-4645bis-05 today -- I'll add the 'kha' comment to the > new Registry contents, without comment in the prose. > > If this situation with 'kha' and 'lyg' is a big problem, > maybe we should consider getting clarification from ISO 639-3 > on what circumstances will cause them to narrow the scope of > a subtag, as we feel they have done with Khasi. A wise move. Best wishes Debbie Debbie Garside http://www.geolang.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 29 06:37:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0B43A6805; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 06:37:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32B528C257 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 06:37:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com 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ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DE33A68FA; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:37:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E9D3A677E for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:37:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZR+NsefURJ6t for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439443A6B09 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:37:47 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,726,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="304895673" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 30 Apr 2008 04:37:38 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3U4bb9f021231 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 04:37:38 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.26]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:37:37 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:37:35 -0700 Thread-Topic: draft-13 submitted... Thread-Index: Aciqe+lN51xaKaCLTCC7DCOaOr6SFw== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01336ACB06@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] draft-13 submitted... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org All, I have just now submitted draft-13 to the IETF. This version is also posted on Inter-Locale: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.xml Wdiff is at: http://tinyurl.com/4naomd "regular" (side-by-side) diff is at: http://tinyurl.com/48cuy9 Note: I generated this version using the on-line tool at xml.resource.org, since my copy of Tcl/Tk won't run xml2rfc in either visual or command-line mode on my new computer. I haven't had time to debug it yet. In any case, I notice that a few minor differences were generated as a result of using the online version (that or I hadn't updated my old generator recently enough). Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 29 21:45:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC7A3A6A2B; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:45:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@ietf.org Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id B96DF3A6AED; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080430044501.B96DF3A6AED@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.txt Pages : 75 Date : 2008-04-29 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-04-29213840.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 30 17:40:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EADAF3A6B17; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:40:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F201428C0F2 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:40:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.299, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z4nxBq2pAUL5 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D873A6B17 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 5so414070ywb.49 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; bh=ByP+TgASFCHymv/S9Lfc7KCj1auN93/dbExdnXTtHRI=; b=MB360cObfWk04G8rcPtcs3KYnbBf0wB18fgJjcasd3CB9iKQaDkvzTihRfgariggtlbhQEBw9ArfjZwJmiZa8uTfJErQNMA0SkYVbHKzZfDplN3RjAx+X+cv5rb7pX8bEfcRU3YZPR9bj9qT4TnIOEPUln3x0KEcKG+2YZebwDA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=qkiobAiv1etxfz+93W3+pBvmPogeqqVEyobc50q8WNJ+bT5sK4n/eNX0JjmRi9y1eQZnxVtU42lPwoFWr2Z75rwPb5DSvb7H1naiByaGqSjPVHZci6JffntGG+JexLjRr/AES+zxAv0xOLjfRcJYrdRkeqzVrV0gzlK1CbNvBfY= Received: by 10.150.83.22 with SMTP id g22mr1828635ybb.146.1209602416763; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.50.8 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804301740g27df4e2as8a174829d281f956@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:40:16 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "LTRU Working Group" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: a1d426b6cdceae82 Subject: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47. X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0873839000==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0873839000== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3785_3252433.1209602416760" ------=_Part_3785_3252433.1209602416760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline BCP 47 says: o Added * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to the registry. ... o Deprecated * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was deprecated. The normal reading of this would be the date that the record was added to the language subtag registry, which is what is defined by BCP 47. That registry did not exist, formally, until September 2006 (when BCP was issued). That makes the following be inconsistent, since it has dates before 2006-09, and even before 2005-10-16: %% Type: grandfathered Tag: no-nyn Description: Norwegian Nynorsk Added: 1995-08-23 Preferred-Value: nn Deprecated: 2000-02-18 Comments: replaced by ISO code nn Suggested fix is: o Added * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the date the corresponding entry was added to the RFC3066 IANA language tag registry. ... o Deprecated * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was deprecated in the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the date the corresponding entry was deprecated in the RFC3066 IANA language tag registry. (Note that this also makes the text consistent with the 4645 description 2.9.) -- Mark ------=_Part_3785_3252433.1209602416760 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline BCP 47 says:

o Added

* Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to
the registry.

...

o Deprecated

* Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was
deprecated.

The normal reading of this would be the date that the record was added to the language subtag registry, which is what is defined by BCP 47. That registry did not exist, formally, until September 2006 (when BCP was issued). That makes the following be inconsistent, since it has dates before 2006-09, and even before 2005-10-16:

%%
Type: grandfathered
Tag: no-nyn
Description: Norwegian Nynorsk
Added: 1995-08-23
Preferred-Value: nn
Deprecated: 2000-02-18
Comments: replaced by ISO code nn

Suggested fix is:

o Added

* Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to
the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the
date the corresponding entry was added to the RFC3066 IANA
language tag registry.

...

o Deprecated

* Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was
deprecated in the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the
date the corresponding entry was deprecated in the RFC3066 IANA
language tag registry.

(Note that this also makes the text consistent with the 4645 description 2.9.)


--
Mark ------=_Part_3785_3252433.1209602416760-- --===============0873839000== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0873839000==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 30 18:17:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF463A6BCF; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:17:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430423A6C58 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:17:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PrI4aqeEkE2G for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C543A6C33 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:16:39 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,419,1204502400"; d="scan'208,217";a="305215139" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 May 2008 01:16:42 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m411Gfjm005736 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 May 2008 01:16:41 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.26]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:16:40 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:16:39 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47. Thread-Index: AcirI/SAqsYPrR0KSFKXedHtC4KteQAA5PUA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01336AD6BC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20804301740g27df4e2as8a174829d281f956@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20804301740g27df4e2as8a174829d281f956@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47. 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c3RlbnQgd2l0aCB0aGUgNDY0NSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiAyLjkuKTxicj4NCjxicj4NCjxicj4NCi0t IDxicj4NCk1hcmsgPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQoNCjwvZGl2Pg0KDQo8L2Rpdj4NCg0KPC9ib2R5 Pg0KDQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01336AD6BCEXSEA5Dantama_-- --===============0887292824== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0887292824==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 30 19:40:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25563A69B1; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:40:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com 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h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=tBIl94Q2P7Z4/5ejwZOApxie8FBvjTnjZyDKFL4pVLo=; b=LkHLzAZNUNaMpGnDaEYuONkqIrSRVa0lLCCMDQXtGTq4pi0OfznfVozKomvWvrtAcGyN7J0/sUBO/7GUqklXKl3Bx3eULu4gjwFX58Jv2cUm6fvHR510mfbx3ef4j0ZL5rWEAoGXZZ0muFlqBx2QQnbweBIEgucadKnVeyzDnmw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=C2ObJhd0cSClLHcfFonLjysBJ6LdiijhpjtAJvR0kELL+pHkTQNzfNMkqxiDBNCD4IrOLEy4qlQCnBHN5AdoeXuKX/4I3XGovtc7kaNz9Q7xvJoW25pLMiJvpafgNTzdxgKz4qb5dfYx0eQ/ZAOWxue9ty72LoEZOEBY0NIbnds= Received: by 10.150.82.10 with SMTP id f10mr228477ybb.138.1209609604538; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.50.8 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20804301940o50181c2dh92e3582a644af0c1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:40:04 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01336AD6BC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20804301740g27df4e2as8a174829d281f956@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01336AD6BC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 11d36f5601e7e3c8 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47. X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0911962008==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0911962008== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4255_15652695.1209609604535" ------=_Part_4255_15652695.1209609604535 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Those are good changes; I have one further suggestion below. I assume that all subtags with deprecation dates were either after the subtag registry was formed or were in the tag registry. If that is not true, can we discuss those cases? On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > Good catch, but with a few minor edits needed. Primarily: it is not just > grandfathered tags have this problem. Redundant tags do too. Also, a few > subtags have "Date A"/"Date B" problems (cf. 'id'). Note also that I say > 'registered' rather than 'added'. I also made the text more consistent with > other field types (avoiding the whole "field-body" locution). > > > > I made the one on Added read: > > > > -- > > 'Added' contains the date the record was registered or, in the case of > grandfathered or redundant tags, the > > date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of target="RFC1766"> and/or . > > -- > > > > And Deprecated's reads: > > > > -- > > 'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated. Note that > some registry entries, including both a few subtags and some of the > grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption of target="RFC4646">. > => 'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the case of some registry entries (including a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags), the date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of and/or . [to be more parallel and have the first sentence be less misleading.] > -- > > > > This will, of course, appear in draft-14. > > > > Addison > > > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:40 PM > *To:* LTRU Working Group > *Subject:* [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47. > > > > BCP 47 says: > > o Added > > * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to > the registry. > > ... > > o Deprecated > > * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was > deprecated. > > > The normal reading of this would be the date that the record was added to > the language subtag registry, which is what is defined by BCP 47. That > registry did not exist, formally, until September 2006 (when BCP was > issued). That makes the following be inconsistent, since it has dates before > 2006-09, and even before 2005-10-16: > > %% > Type: grandfathered > Tag: no-nyn > Description: Norwegian Nynorsk > Added: 1995-08-23 > Preferred-Value: nn > Deprecated: 2000-02-18 > Comments: replaced by ISO code nn > > Suggested fix is: > > o Added > > * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to > the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the > date the corresponding entry was added to the RFC3066 IANA > language tag registry. > > ... > > o Deprecated > > * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was > deprecated in the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the > date the corresponding entry was deprecated in the RFC3066 IANA > language tag registry. > > > (Note that this also makes the text consistent with the 4645 description > 2.9.) > > > -- > Mark > -- Mark ------=_Part_4255_15652695.1209609604535 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Those are good changes; I have one further suggestion below.

I assume that all subtags with deprecation dates were either after the subtag registry was formed or were in the tag registry. If that is not true, can we discuss those cases?

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

Good catch, but with a few minor edits needed. Primarily: it is not just grandfathered tags have this problem. Redundant tags do too. Also, a few subtags have "Date A"/"Date B" problems (cf. 'id'). Note also that I say 'registered' rather than 'added'. I also made the text more consistent with other field types (avoiding the whole "field-body" locution).

 

I made the one on Added read:

 

--

<t>'Added' contains the date the record was registered or, in the case of grandfathered or redundant tags, the

date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of <xref target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>

--

 

And Deprecated's reads:

 

--

<t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated. Note that some registry entries, including both a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption of <xref target="RFC4646"></xref>.</t>

=>
<t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the case of some registry entries (including a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags), the date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of <xref target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>

[to be more parallel and have the first sentence be less misleading.]
 

--

 

This will, of course, appear in draft-14.

 

Addison

 

 

Addison Phillips

Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

 

Internationalization is not a feature.

It is an architecture.

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:40 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.

 

BCP 47 says:

o Added

* Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to
the registry.

...

o Deprecated

* Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was
deprecated.


The normal reading of this would be the date that the record was added to the language subtag registry, which is what is defined by BCP 47. That registry did not exist, formally, until September 2006 (when BCP was issued). That makes the following be inconsistent, since it has dates before 2006-09, and even before 2005-10-16:

%%
Type: grandfathered
Tag: no-nyn
Description: Norwegian Nynorsk
Added: 1995-08-23
Preferred-Value: nn
Deprecated: 2000-02-18
Comments: replaced by ISO code nn

Suggested fix is:

o Added

* Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to
the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the
date the corresponding entry was added to the RFC3066 IANA
language tag registry.

...

o Deprecated

* Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was
deprecated in the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the
date the corresponding entry was deprecated in the RFC3066 IANA
language tag registry.


(Note that this also makes the text consistent with the 4645 description 2.9.)


--
Mark




--
Mark ------=_Part_4255_15652695.1209609604535-- --===============0911962008== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0911962008==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 30 21:07:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1C1D3A690A; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:07:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037703A690A for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:07:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.163, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aDWsRu-zEXey for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368253A6878 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:07:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=qvGehD/FCSyHsctXR/yJh62yCHGlBzJYQzROtp0tIzdw1r7gzTeI4jUrMDDXprmu; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.80.240] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JrQ4e-0001bL-Dp for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 00:07:12 -0400 Message-ID: <004201c8ab38$7eda1980$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:07:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8885d2a9c731cc8911759107c364de24f2fec7f90129d33acd5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.80.240 Subject: [Ltru] Finishing up - prepare for second WG last call X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - Though I am encouraged by the continued updates to the I-D for RFC 4646 bis (after all, that means that *someone* is reading it) we as a working group really need to finish this stuff. To paraphrase a well-known paradox: every specification has at least one unnecessary statement, and every specification has at least one error. (Consequently, .... :-) I *really* want to be done with this. When the next i-d update appears, we'll begin a *ONE-WEEK* working group last call on both documents. If no "show-stopping" problems are identified, we'll then hand the documents to our Area Directors to take to the IESG. Randy ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 30 21:31:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EAFE28C376; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:31:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7128528C20F for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:31:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GcWzlKVFqAVc for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 886D828C1E0 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:31:56 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,419,1204502400"; d="scan'208,217";a="305238806" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 May 2008 04:31:58 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m414VvGO001848 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 May 2008 04:31:57 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.26]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:31:56 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:31:55 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47. 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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1199004605==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 30 22:39:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D162D3A68F3; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:39:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579203A68F3 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:39:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.045, BAYES_50=0.001, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r4KBS5PS9Cc0 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2899F3A696A for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20014 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 05:39:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.35) with ESMTP; 01 May 2008 05:39:25 -0000 Message-ID: <002b01c8ab4d$b6de1ba0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:39:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Addition to ISO 639-3: [lyg] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RGViYmllIEdhcnNpZGUgPGRlYmJpZSBhdCBpY3RtYXJrZXRpbmcgZG90IGNvIGRvdCB1az4gd3Jv dGU6Cgo+IEFsdGhvdWdoIEkgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCB0aGlzIHNob3VsZCBmb3JtIHBhcnQgb2YgdGhl IGZvcm1hbCBwcm9jZXNzLiBJIAo+IHRoaW5rIGl0IHNob3VsZCBiZSB3cml0dGVuIGludG8gdGhl IFJGQyBhcyBhICJTaG91bGQiIGZvciB0aGlzIHR5cGUgb2YgCj4gc2l0dWF0aW9uLgoKSSdtIGNv bmNlcm5lZCBhYm91dCB1c2luZyB0aGUgd29yZCAic2hvdWxkIiAod2l0aCBvciB3aXRob3V0IFJG QyAyMTE5IAp1cHBlcmNhc2luZykgZm9yIGFueXRoaW5nIHJlbGF0aW5nIHRvIENvbW1lbnRzIGZp ZWxkcy4gIElmIHRoZSBjb250ZW50IAphYnNvbHV0ZWx5IGhhcyB0byBiZSB0aGVyZSwgb3IgZWxz ZSB0aGUgUmVnaXN0cnkgY2FuJ3QgYmUgdXNlZCBwcm9wZXJseSwgCnRoZW4gdGhleSBzaG91bGRu 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b3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5k Lm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGll dGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 30 22:54:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9AB3A685B; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:54:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFCB3A699A for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.334 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.334 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.264, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cPW+IVGsv+hT for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.221]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9762E3A6B5D for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27560 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 05:53:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.221) with ESMTP; 01 May 2008 05:53:38 -0000 Message-ID: <003701c8ab4f$b33fad40$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:53:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] fix for TP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org U2hhbGwgSSB1c2UgZHJhZnQtNDY0NWJpcy0wNSBhcyB0aGUgdmVoaWNsZSB0byBtYWtlIHRoZSBz dWdnZXN0ZWQgY2hhbmdlIAp0byB0aGUgRGVwcmVjYXRlZCBmaWVsZCBmb3IgcmVnaW9uIHN1YnRh ZyBUUD8KCkZyb206CgpUeXBlOiByZWdpb24KU3VidGFnOiBUUApEZXNjcmlwdGlvbjogRWFzdCBU aW1vcgpBZGRlZDogMjAwNS0xMC0xNgpQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWU6IFRMCkRlcHJlY2F0ZWQ6IDIw MDItMTEtMTUKClRvOgoKLi4uCkRlcHJlY2F0ZWQ6IDIwMDItMDUtMjAKCk5vIGNoYW5nZSBpcyBu ZWVkZWQgZm9yIHRoZSByZWNvcmQgZm9yIFRMLgoKSSB3b3VsZCBzdWdnZXN0IGFkZGluZyBzb21l IHByb3NlIGluIHRoZSBkcmFmdCBpbmRpY2F0aW5nIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBkYXRlIAp3YXMgY2hhbmdl ZCB0byBjb3JyZWN0IGEgcmVzZWFyY2ggZXJyb3IsIGJ1dCBhbHNvIGNhbGxpbmcgYXR0ZW50aW9u 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