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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
References: <mailman.49.1209409209.13252.ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Addition to ISO 639-3: [lyg]
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Hi Doug

I do see the points you have made and can see that quite a lot of extra work
would be involved - although I am sure that the ISO 639-3 MA/RA would
facilitate a better change page if required.  I still think that for
backward compatibility as well as assistance to the end user that this
should be done.  However, as there has been no supporting discussion on this
and as Randy is hoping for a last call pretty soon I won't labour the points
for doing this.

Best

Debbie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: 01 May 2008 06:39
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Addition to ISO 639-3: [lyg]
>
> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> > Although I think that this should form part of the formal
> process. I
> > think it should be written into the RFC as a "Should" for
> this type of
> > situation.
>
> I'm concerned about using the word "should" (with or without RFC 2119
> uppercasing) for anything relating to Comments fields.  If
> the content absolutely has to be there, or else the Registry
> can't be used properly, then they shouldn't be comments;
> there should be a new field (i.e. "See
> Also") for this sort of must-have information.  And I say
> this knowing how Randy feels about finishing off this work,
> and not adding new things to it, and I say this 99.9%
> agreeing with him.
>
> > With a comment field within 'lyg' directing Joe to 'kha' he
> can do a
> > secondary match.  With no comment he has no chance of finding the
> > documents unless he knows enough about the LSR to do a search for
> > comments regarding 'lyg' (which would bring up my proposed comment
> > within 'kha' but only in this particular instance).
>
> Not only that, but this use case expands our -- somebody's --
> task of digging beneath the surface of ISO 639-3 changes even
> more than I anticipated.  This is because of the four
> different paths that ISO 639-3/RA can take when splitting a
> language, as outlined by Joan Spanne.
>
> Suppose Joe, on his second week with Company A (luckily not
> having been sacked over the Lyngngam headache), receives a
> new request to find documents relating to Rangpuri, one of
> two languages split off from what used to be called Rajbanshi
> (the other "new" language is also called Rajbanshi).  This
> was another of the 2007 changes, one that follows the first
> of Joan's four cases.  Joe can find 'rkt' for Rangpuri, but
> is unlikely to find any correlation to either the old
> Rajbanshi ('rjb') or the new Rajbanshi ('rjs').  The subtag
> 'rjb' would have been deprecated, either with no
> Preferred-Value or with a P-V of 'rjs', but probably not with
> a P-V of 'rkt'.
>
> Thus we would need to supply comments not only for the
> narrowing cases, which Joan expects to be comparatively rare,
> but also for what she called the "simple splits" like
> Rajbanshi, which constitute a significant percentage of the
> churn in ISO 639-3.  The "merge" cases would probably have to
> be commented as well, for similar reasons.  In essence this
> is a reverse Preferred-Value, telling the user how the
> language *used to be* tagged, whereas Preferred-Value leads
> the user from the old subtag to the new one.
>
> And while I would love to think the rate of churn in ISO
> 639-3 is dwindling to a trickle, the Change Request Index
> page suggests
> otherwise: 45 proposed language changes already since the
> publication of the 2007 changes four months ago.
>
> > At the moment these comments may or may not be there
> according to the
> > rules of the current RFC.  I don't think this is good
> enough.  We can
> > do better and I don't think it will cost a lot to do it.  A simple
> > rule that states "where the meaning of a subtag is narrowed
> and a new
> > subtag is issued as a result both subtags should have
> comment fields
> > denoting the change history".  A simple "watch this page"
> scenario on
> > the ISO 639-3 change notification page would assist in the process.
>
> They don't post their changes on an incremental basis, with
> explanation, as ISO 639-2/RA does.  Rather, they make entire
> new files available for download, with the changes in place
> but not annotated, and only once a year do they publish a
> Summary of Outcomes document which explains the nature of the
> change.  It is then for us -- by which I assume is meant the
> Designated Experts, Michael and Doug -- to do the exegesis on
> the downloadable files, deciding which changes in ISO 639-3
> require this type of "obligatory" comment.  The downloadable
> files are wonderful, don't get me wrong, but a list of
> changes posted on a Web page, in date order, would be
> necessary to make good use of WatchThatPage.
>
> I do use WatchThatPage to find out about the new 639-3 files,
> and I had expected to do some exegesis on them already, such
> as identifying deprecated language subtags and their
> Preferred-Values.  These suggestions add an unknown amount of
> exegesis to what I was already going to do.  It's unlikely
> anyone else would volunteer to do it, to be honest.
>
> We could extend this concept even further, by adding Comments
> fields to the region subtags for all of the former Soviet
> republics, pointing them back to 'SU', so that Joe could find
> documents related to "Kurdish as used in Armenia" that were
> tagged before Armenia was independent.  This is not meant to
> be sarcastic, but is a logical outgrowth of adding comments
> to language subtags pointing them back to "previously coded as"
> values.  I don't know where it would end.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>




_______________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 09:39:41 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
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Ok, how about:

<t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated. Note that some
registry entries, including both a few subtags and some of the grandfathered
or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption of <xref
target="RFC4646"></xref>.</t>
=>
<t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the case
of some registry entries (including a few subtags and some of the
grandfathered or redundant tags), the date the corresponding tag was
deprecated under the rules of <xref target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref
target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>

Is that close enough?

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

>  The cases where subtags were deprecated "before the subtag registry" all
> focus on "dead on arrival" items like il/he or id/in, AFAIK. Those were NOT
> in the tag registry but have to do with ISO 639 or ISO 3166  changes. Cf:
>
>
>
> %%
>
> Type: region
>
> Subtag: DD
>
> Description: German Democratic Republic
>
> Added: 2005-10-16
>
> Preferred-Value: DE
>
> Deprecated: 1990-10-30
>
> %%
>
>
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:40 PM
> *To:* Phillips, Addison
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
>
>
> Those are good changes; I have one further suggestion below.
>
> I assume that all subtags with deprecation dates were either after the
> subtag registry was formed or were in the tag registry. If that is not true,
> can we discuss those cases?
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
>
> Good catch, but with a few minor edits needed. Primarily: it is not just
> grandfathered tags have this problem. Redundant tags do too. Also, a few
> subtags have "Date A"/"Date B" problems (cf. 'id'). Note also that I say
> 'registered' rather than 'added'. I also made the text more consistent with
> other field types (avoiding the whole "field-body" locution).
>
>
>
> I made the one on Added read:
>
>
>
> --
>
> <t>'Added' contains the date the record was registered or, in the case of
> grandfathered or redundant tags, the
>
> date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of <xref
> target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>
>
> --
>
>
>
> And Deprecated's reads:
>
>
>
> --
>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated. Note that
> some registry entries, including both a few subtags and some of the
> grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption of <xref
> target="RFC4646"></xref>.</t>
>
> =>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the
> case of some registry entries (including a few subtags and some of the
> grandfathered or redundant tags), the date the corresponding tag was
> registered under the rules of <xref target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref
> target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>
>
> [to be more parallel and have the first sentence be less misleading.]
>
>
>  --
>
>
>
> This will, of course, appear in draft-14.
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:40 PM
> *To:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
>
>
> BCP 47 says:
>
> o Added
>
> * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to
> the registry.
>
> ...
>
> o Deprecated
>
> * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was
> deprecated.
>
>
> The normal reading of this would be the date that the record was added to
> the language subtag registry, which is what is defined by BCP 47. That
> registry did not exist, formally, until September 2006 (when BCP was
> issued). That makes the following be inconsistent, since it has dates before
> 2006-09, and even before 2005-10-16:
>
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: no-nyn
> Description: Norwegian Nynorsk
> Added: 1995-08-23
> Preferred-Value: nn
> Deprecated: 2000-02-18
> Comments: replaced by ISO code nn
>
> Suggested fix is:
>
> o Added
>
> * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to
> the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the
> date the corresponding entry was added to the RFC3066 IANA
> language tag registry.
>
> ...
>
> o Deprecated
>
> * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was
> deprecated in the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the
> date the corresponding entry was deprecated in the RFC3066 IANA
> language tag registry.
>
>
> (Note that this also makes the text consistent with the 4645 description
> 2.9.)
>
>
> --
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark
>



-- 
Mark

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Ok, how about:<br><br><p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date the record was
deprecated. Note that some registry entries, including both a few subtags and
some of the grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption
of &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC4646&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;</span></p>=&gt;<br><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date the record was
deprecated, or in the case of some registry entries (including a few subtags and
some of the grandfathered or redundant tags), </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">the</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> date the corresponding tag was deprecated under the rules of
&lt;xref target=&quot;RFC1766&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; and/or &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC3066&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br><br>Is that close enough?<br></span><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">








<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The cases where subtags were deprecated "before the subtag
registry" all focus on "dead on arrival" items like il/he or id/in, AFAIK.
Those were NOT in the tag registry but have to do with ISO 639 or ISO 3166&nbsp;
changes. Cf:</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">%%</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Type:
region</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Subtag:
DD</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Description:
German Democratic Republic</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Added:
2005-10-16</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Preferred-Value:
DE</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Deprecated:
1990-10-30</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">%%</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span></p><div class="Ih2E3d">

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillips</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization Architect -- Lab126</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationalization is not a feature.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an architecture.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

</div><div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phillips, Addison<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.</span></p>

</div>

</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Those are good changes; I have
one further suggestion below.<br>
<br>
I assume that all subtags with deprecation dates were either after the subtag
registry was formed or were in the tag registry. If that is not true, can we
discuss those cases?</p>

<div>

<p>On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com" target="_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>

<div>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Good catch, but with a few
minor edits needed. Primarily: it is not just grandfathered tags have this
problem. Redundant tags do too. Also, a few subtags have &quot;Date
A&quot;/&quot;Date B&quot; problems (cf. &#39;id&#39;). Note also that I say
&#39;registered&#39; rather than &#39;added&#39;. I also made the text more consistent with
other field types (avoiding the whole &quot;field-body&quot; locution).</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I made the one on Added read:</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Added&#39; contains the
date the record was registered or, in the case of grandfathered or redundant
tags, the</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">date the corresponding tag was
registered under the rules of &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC1766&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; and/or &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC3066&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">And Deprecated&#39;s reads:</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains
the date the record was deprecated. Note that some registry entries, including
both a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags were
deprecated prior to adoption of &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC4646&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;</span></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<p>=&gt;<br>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the
date the record was deprecated, or in the case of some registry entries
(including a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags), the
date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC1766&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; and/or &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC3066&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
[to be more parallel and have the first sentence be less misleading.]<br>
</span>&nbsp;</p>

</div>

<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">


<div>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This will, of course, appear in
draft-14.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillips</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization Architect --
Lab126</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Chair -- W3C
Internationalization Core WG</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationalization is not a
feature.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an architecture.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.</span></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">BCP 47 says:</p>

<div style="margin-left: 30pt;">

<p>o Added<br>
<br>
* Added&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was added to<br>
the registry.<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
o Deprecated<br>
<br>
* Deprecated&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was<br>
deprecated.</p>

</div>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
The normal reading of this would be the date that the record was added to the
language subtag registry, which is what is defined by BCP 47. That registry did
not exist, formally, until September 2006 (when BCP was issued). That makes the
following be inconsistent, since it has dates before 2006-09, and even before
2005-10-16:<br>
<br>
%%<br>
Type: grandfathered<br>
Tag: no-nyn<br>
Description: Norwegian Nynorsk<br>
Added: 1995-08-23<br>
Preferred-Value: nn<br>
Deprecated: 2000-02-18<br>
Comments: replaced by ISO code nn<br>
<br>
Suggested fix is:</p>

<div style="margin-left: 30pt;">

<p>o Added<br>
<br>
* Added&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was added to<br>
the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the<br>
date the corresponding entry was added to the RFC3066 IANA<br>
language tag registry.<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
o Deprecated<br>
<br>
* Deprecated&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was<br>
deprecated in the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the<br>
date the corresponding entry was deprecated in the RFC3066 IANA<br>
language tag registry.</p>

</div>

<p><br>
(Note that this also makes the text consistent with the 4645 description 2.9.)<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Mark </p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

<p><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Mark </p>

</div></div></div>

</div>

</div>


</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May  1 09:57:38 2008
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Hi -

I think the following text in section 4.1 (4)(4) is misleading, if
not simply incorrect.  The current text says
           Note: where there are fragments of
           linguistic content, such as programming source code
           containing comments written in English, the subtag 'zxx'
           might still be used to indicate the primary status of the
           content, just as 'en' can be applied to a predominantly
           English text that contains a few French phrases.

I realize that this is already quite weak, with no normative force,
but it is misleading, and I believe it points in the wrong direction
for the tagging of artifacts like programming source code.  Now this
may be a function of the quality of source code in question, but I
think the analogy to an English document containing a few French phrases
is incorrect.  For well-maintained source code, the embedded comments
make up a substantial percentage, if not the majority of the
textual content.  In some ways, the comments are more important than
the code itself, since they (rather than anything machine-readable)
provide the interface semantics in most environments.  A more
appropriate analogy would be to an English-language document containing
some mathematical stuff.  I've seen (unmaintainable) chunks of code
with no comments at all.  For such abominations zxx makes a lot of sense.
But the vast majority of he production-grade software I've seen would
be much more sensibly tagged 'en'.

Proposal: delete the note.

Randy

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I agree that we should eliminate the note. It really doesn't belong here. The preceding sentence says more than enough about source code:

--
The 'zxx' (Non-Linguistic) primary language subtag identifies content that has no language. Some examples might include instrumental or electronic music; sound recordings consisting of nonverbal sounds; audiovisual materials with no narration, printed titles, or subtitles; machine-readable data files consisting of machine languages or character codes; or programming source code.
--

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:58 AM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] draft-4646bis, Section 4.1 (4)(4)
>
> Hi -
>
> I think the following text in section 4.1 (4)(4) is misleading, if
> not simply incorrect.  The current text says
>            Note: where there are fragments of
>            linguistic content, such as programming source code
>            containing comments written in English, the subtag 'zxx'
>            might still be used to indicate the primary status of the
>            content, just as 'en' can be applied to a predominantly
>            English text that contains a few French phrases.
>
> I realize that this is already quite weak, with no normative force,
> but it is misleading, and I believe it points in the wrong direction
> for the tagging of artifacts like programming source code.  Now this
> may be a function of the quality of source code in question, but I
> think the analogy to an English document containing a few French
> phrases
> is incorrect.  For well-maintained source code, the embedded comments
> make up a substantial percentage, if not the majority of the
> textual content.  In some ways, the comments are more important than
> the code itself, since they (rather than anything machine-readable)
> provide the interface semantics in most environments.  A more
> appropriate analogy would be to an English-language document containing
> some mathematical stuff.  I've seen (unmaintainable) chunks of code
> with no comments at all.  For such abominations zxx makes a lot of
> sense.
> But the vast majority of he production-grade software I've seen would
> be much more sensibly tagged 'en'.
>
> Proposal: delete the note.
>
> Randy
>
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> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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How about:

The 'zxx' (Not Applicable) primary language subtag identifies content for 
which a language classification is inappropriate. Some examples might 
include instrumental or electronic music; sound recordings consisting of 
nonverbal sounds; audiovisual materials with no narration, dialog, printed 
titles, or subtitles; machine-readable data files consisting of machine 
languages or character codes; or programming source code.

Karen Broome




"Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com> 
Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
05/01/2008 10:15 AM

To
Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group 
<ltru@ietf.org>
cc

Subject
Re: [Ltru] draft-4646bis, Section 4.1 (4)(4)






I agree that we should eliminate the note. It really doesn't belong here. 
The preceding sentence says more than enough about source code:

--
The 'zxx' (Non-Linguistic) primary language subtag identifies content that 
has no language. Some examples might include instrumental or electronic 
music; sound recordings consisting of nonverbal sounds; audiovisual 
materials with no narration, printed titles, or subtitles; 
machine-readable data files consisting of machine languages or character 
codes; or programming source code.
--

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:58 AM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] draft-4646bis, Section 4.1 (4)(4)
>
> Hi -
>
> I think the following text in section 4.1 (4)(4) is misleading, if
> not simply incorrect.  The current text says
>            Note: where there are fragments of
>            linguistic content, such as programming source code
>            containing comments written in English, the subtag 'zxx'
>            might still be used to indicate the primary status of the
>            content, just as 'en' can be applied to a predominantly
>            English text that contains a few French phrases.
>
> I realize that this is already quite weak, with no normative force,
> but it is misleading, and I believe it points in the wrong direction
> for the tagging of artifacts like programming source code.  Now this
> may be a function of the quality of source code in question, but I
> think the analogy to an English document containing a few French
> phrases
> is incorrect.  For well-maintained source code, the embedded comments
> make up a substantial percentage, if not the majority of the
> textual content.  In some ways, the comments are more important than
> the code itself, since they (rather than anything machine-readable)
> provide the interface semantics in most environments.  A more
> appropriate analogy would be to an English-language document containing
> some mathematical stuff.  I've seen (unmaintainable) chunks of code
> with no comments at all.  For such abominations zxx makes a lot of
> sense.
> But the vast majority of he production-grade software I've seen would
> be much more sensibly tagged 'en'.
>
> Proposal: delete the note.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">How about:</font>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>The 'zxx' (Not Applicable) primary language subtag
identifies content for which a language classification is inappropriate.
Some examples might include instrumental or electronic music; sound recordings
consisting of nonverbal sounds; audiovisual materials with no narration,
dialog, printed titles, or subtitles; machine-readable data files consisting
of machine languages or character codes; or programming source code.</font></tt>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Karen Broome</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Phillips, Addison&quot;
&lt;addison@amazon.com&gt;</b> </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/01/2008 10:15 AM</font>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Randy Presuhn &lt;randy_presuhn@mindspring.com&gt;,
LTRU Working Group &lt;ltru@ietf.org&gt;</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [Ltru] draft-4646bis, Section 4.1
(4)(4)</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>I agree that we should eliminate the note. It really
doesn't belong here. The preceding sentence says more than enough about
source code:<br>
<br>
--<br>
The 'zxx' (Non-Linguistic) primary language subtag identifies content that
has no language. Some examples might include instrumental or electronic
music; sound recordings consisting of nonverbal sounds; audiovisual materials
with no narration, printed titles, or subtitles; machine-readable data
files consisting of machine languages or character codes; or programming
source code.<br>
--<br>
<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of<br>
&gt; Randy Presuhn<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:58 AM<br>
&gt; To: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt; Subject: [Ltru] draft-4646bis, Section 4.1 (4)(4)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi -<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the following text in section 4.1 (4)(4) is misleading, if<br>
&gt; not simply incorrect. &nbsp;The current text says<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Note: where there are fragments
of<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;linguistic content, such
as programming source code<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;containing comments written
in English, the subtag 'zxx'<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;might still be used to indicate
the primary status of the<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;content, just as 'en' can
be applied to a predominantly<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;English text that contains
a few French phrases.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I realize that this is already quite weak, with no normative force,<br>
&gt; but it is misleading, and I believe it points in the wrong direction<br>
&gt; for the tagging of artifacts like programming source code. &nbsp;Now
this<br>
&gt; may be a function of the quality of source code in question, but I<br>
&gt; think the analogy to an English document containing a few French<br>
&gt; phrases<br>
&gt; is incorrect. &nbsp;For well-maintained source code, the embedded
comments<br>
&gt; make up a substantial percentage, if not the majority of the<br>
&gt; textual content. &nbsp;In some ways, the comments are more important
than<br>
&gt; the code itself, since they (rather than anything machine-readable)<br>
&gt; provide the interface semantics in most environments. &nbsp;A more<br>
&gt; appropriate analogy would be to an English-language document containing<br>
&gt; some mathematical stuff. &nbsp;I've seen (unmaintainable) chunks of
code<br>
&gt; with no comments at all. &nbsp;For such abominations zxx makes a lot
of<br>
&gt; sense.<br>
&gt; But the vast majority of he production-grade software I've seen would<br>
&gt; be much more sensibly tagged 'en'.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Proposal: delete the note.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Randy<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; Ltru@ietf.org<br>
&gt; </font></tt><a href=https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru><tt><font size=2>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
Ltru@ietf.org<br>
</font></tt><a href=https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru><tt><font size=2>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>
<br>
</font></tt></a></a>
<br>
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_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May  1 10:40:53 2008
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group
	<ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:40:51 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Finishing up - prepare for second WG last call
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Hi Randy,

Glad to see this note. One question. Does this:

> When the next i-d update appears,
> we'll begin a *ONE-WEEK* working group last call on both documents.

... mean draft-4646bis-13 or draft-4646bis-14? Draft-13 was submitted and is now available. If you mean draft-14, I'll tidy up today's edits and submit it.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:08 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] Finishing up - prepare for second WG last call
>
> Hi -
>
> Though I am encouraged by the continued updates to the I-D for
> RFC 4646 bis (after all, that means that *someone* is reading it)
> we as a working group really need to finish this stuff.  To
> paraphrase a well-known paradox: every specification has at least one
> unnecessary statement, and every specification has at least one
> error.  (Consequently, ....  :-)
>
> I *really* want to be done with this.  When the next i-d update appears,
> we'll begin a *ONE-WEEK* working group last call on both documents.
> If no "show-stopping" problems are identified, we'll then hand the
> documents to our Area Directors to take to the IESG.
>
> Randy
> ltru co-chair
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
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Hi -

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:40 AM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Finishing up - prepare for second WG last call
>
> Hi Randy,
> 
> Glad to see this note. One question. Does this:
> 
> > When the next i-d update appears,
> > we'll begin a *ONE-WEEK* working group last call on both documents.
> 
> ... mean draft-4646bis-13 or draft-4646bis-14? Draft-13 was submitted
> and is now available. If you mean draft-14, I'll tidy up today's edits and submit it.

-14- is what I meant, since at the time of my notes, there seemed to already
be agreement to change -13-.

Randy

"Perfect" is antithetical to "done".


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Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:54:33 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] draft-4646bis, Section 4.1 (4)(4)
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:35:07 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] draft-4646bis, Section 4.1 (4)(4)
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Karen wrote:
>
> Typo on "non-linguistic" in the third sentence.  I also added "dialog"
> to
> the last sentence. See my version. "Dialog" is not the same as
> narration.

Both changes done. Thanks.

>
> I would not include the third sentence. I would think it's my right to
> create, say:
>
> zxx-x-music
> zxx-x-silent
> zxx-x-code
> zxx-x-perl

You're correct that it is your right to do so. This is actually the meaning of SHOULD NOT in my mind: you shouldn't do it, unless you have a good reason to do so. If you have a good reason, you're free to do so. What I think might be important (given certain threads on ietf-languages) is to indicate that "zxx-Latn", "zxx-GB", "zxx-scotland", and definitely "zxx-Latn-GB-scotland" are ill-considered.

>
> etc.
>
> In this case, I think no guidance is better.
>
You're probably right. Given Randy's note, I'll omit my two proposed bits of mustard and make the para:

<t>The 'zxx' (Non-Linguistic, Not Applicable) primary language subtag identifies content for which a language classification is inappropriate or does not apply. Some examples might include instrumental or electronic music; sound recordings consisting of nonverbal sounds; audiovisual materials with no narration, dialog, printed titles, or subtitles; machine-readable data files consisting of machine languages or character codes; or programming source code.</t>


~Addison

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Your text proposal below is fine with me. Thank you.

Karen Broome

"Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com> wrote on 05/01/2008 11:35:07 AM:

> Karen wrote:
> >
> > Typo on "non-linguistic" in the third sentence.  I also added "dialog"
> > to
> > the last sentence. See my version. "Dialog" is not the same as
> > narration.
> 
> Both changes done. Thanks.
> 
> >
> > I would not include the third sentence. I would think it's my right to
> > create, say:
> >
> > zxx-x-music
> > zxx-x-silent
> > zxx-x-code
> > zxx-x-perl
> 
> You're correct that it is your right to do so. This is actually the 
> meaning of SHOULD NOT in my mind: you shouldn't do it, unless you 
> have a good reason to do so. If you have a good reason, you're free 
> to do so. What I think might be important (given certain threads on 
> ietf-languages) is to indicate that "zxx-Latn", "zxx-GB", "zxx-
> scotland", and definitely "zxx-Latn-GB-scotland" are ill-considered.
> 
> >
> > etc.
> >
> > In this case, I think no guidance is better.
> >
> You're probably right. Given Randy's note, I'll omit my two proposed
> bits of mustard and make the para:
> 
> <t>The 'zxx' (Non-Linguistic, Not Applicable) primary language 
> subtag identifies content for which a language classification is 
> inappropriate or does not apply. Some examples might include 
> instrumental or electronic music; sound recordings consisting of 
> nonverbal sounds; audiovisual materials with no narration, dialog, 
> printed titles, or subtitles; machine-readable data files consisting
> of machine languages or character codes; or programming source code.</t>
> 
> 
> ~Addison
> 


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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
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I know this is a nit, but the first sentence doesn't quite work. It says,
expanded out, "'Deprecated' contains the date on which the record was made
deprecated in the subtag registry". That is clearly false when the date is
before the existence of the subtag registry. How about:

<t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the case
of a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags, the date
the tag or subtag was deprecated according to Section 2 of <xref
target="RFC4645"></xref>.</t>

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

>  Okay, after a little more thought, the right thing to do is reference the
> actual details. Here is my proposed text:
>
>
>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated. In the case
> of a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags, this date
> is prior to the initial creation of the IANA Language Subtag Registry. For
> details see Section 2 of <xref target="RFC4645"></xref>.</t>
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Phillips, Addison
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:01 AM
> *To:* Mark Davis
>
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
>
>
> I can move the "note" into the base sentence, but subtags deprecated prior
> to 4646 were not deprecated by rules in 1766/3066. (Your text works for
> grandfathered tags.) Subtag deprecation came from rules in 4646. Hence my
> phrase "prior to adoption of 4646" as a proxy for "deprecated before the
> subtag registry was formed".
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:40 AM
> *To:* Phillips, Addison
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
>
>
> Ok, how about:
>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated. Note that
> some registry entries, including both a few subtags and some of the
> grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption of <xref
> target="RFC4646"></xref>.</t>
>
> =>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the
> case of some registry entries (including a few subtags and some of the
> grandfathered or redundant tags), the date the corresponding tag was
> deprecated under the rules of <xref target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref
> target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>
>
> Is that close enough?
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
>
> The cases where subtags were deprecated "before the subtag registry" all
> focus on "dead on arrival" items like il/he or id/in, AFAIK. Those were NOT
> in the tag registry but have to do with ISO 639 or ISO 3166  changes. Cf:
>
>
>
> %%
>
> Type: region
>
> Subtag: DD
>
> Description: German Democratic Republic
>
> Added: 2005-10-16
>
> Preferred-Value: DE
>
> Deprecated: 1990-10-30
>
> %%
>
>
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:40 PM
> *To:* Phillips, Addison
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
>
>
> Those are good changes; I have one further suggestion below.
>
> I assume that all subtags with deprecation dates were either after the
> subtag registry was formed or were in the tag registry. If that is not true,
> can we discuss those cases?
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
>
> Good catch, but with a few minor edits needed. Primarily: it is not just
> grandfathered tags have this problem. Redundant tags do too. Also, a few
> subtags have "Date A"/"Date B" problems (cf. 'id'). Note also that I say
> 'registered' rather than 'added'. I also made the text more consistent with
> other field types (avoiding the whole "field-body" locution).
>
>
>
> I made the one on Added read:
>
>
>
> --
>
> <t>'Added' contains the date the record was registered or, in the case of
> grandfathered or redundant tags, the
>
> date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of <xref
> target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>
>
> --
>
>
>
> And Deprecated's reads:
>
>
>
> --
>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated. Note that
> some registry entries, including both a few subtags and some of the
> grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption of <xref
> target="RFC4646"></xref>.</t>
>
> =>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the
> case of some registry entries (including a few subtags and some of the
> grandfathered or redundant tags), the date the corresponding tag was
> registered under the rules of <xref target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref
> target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>
>
> [to be more parallel and have the first sentence be less misleading.]
>
>
>  --
>
>
>
> This will, of course, appear in draft-14.
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:40 PM
> *To:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
>
>
> BCP 47 says:
>
> o Added
>
> * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to
> the registry.
>
> ...
>
> o Deprecated
>
> * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was
> deprecated.
>
>
> The normal reading of this would be the date that the record was added to
> the language subtag registry, which is what is defined by BCP 47. That
> registry did not exist, formally, until September 2006 (when BCP was
> issued). That makes the following be inconsistent, since it has dates before
> 2006-09, and even before 2005-10-16:
>
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: no-nyn
> Description: Norwegian Nynorsk
> Added: 1995-08-23
> Preferred-Value: nn
> Deprecated: 2000-02-18
> Comments: replaced by ISO code nn
>
> Suggested fix is:
>
> o Added
>
> * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to
> the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the
> date the corresponding entry was added to the RFC3066 IANA
> language tag registry.
>
> ...
>
> o Deprecated
>
> * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was
> deprecated in the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the
> date the corresponding entry was deprecated in the RFC3066 IANA
> language tag registry.
>
>
> (Note that this also makes the text consistent with the 4645 description
> 2.9.)
>
>
> --
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark
>



-- 
Mark

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I know this is a nit, but the first sentence doesn&#39;t quite work. It says, expanded out, &quot;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date on which the record was made deprecated in the subtag registry&quot;. That is clearly false when the date is before the existence of the subtag registry. How about:<br>
<br><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date the record was
deprecated, or in the case of a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or
redundant tags, the date the tag or subtag was deprecated according to Section 2 of &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC4645&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;</span><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">








<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Okay, after a little more thought, the right thing to do is
reference the actual details. Here is my proposed text:</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date the record was
deprecated. In the case of a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or
redundant tags, this date is prior to the initial creation of the IANA Language
Subtag Registry. For details see Section 2 of &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC4645&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;</span></p><div class="Ih2E3d">

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillips</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization Architect -- Lab126</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationalization is not a feature.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an architecture.</span></p>

</div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

</div><div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Phillips,
Addison<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mark Davis<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.</div></div></span></p>

</div>

</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I can move the "note" into the base sentence, but subtags
deprecated prior to 4646 were not deprecated by rules in 1766/3066. (Your text works
for grandfathered tags.) Subtag deprecation came from rules in 4646. Hence my
phrase "prior to adoption of 4646" as a proxy for "deprecated before the subtag
registry was formed".</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillips</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization Architect -- Lab126</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationalization is not a feature.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an architecture.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phillips, Addison<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.</span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Ok, how about:</p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains
the date the record was deprecated. Note that some registry entries, including
both a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags were
deprecated prior to adoption of &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC4646&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;</span></p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">=&gt;<br>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the
date the record was deprecated, or in the case of some registry entries
(including a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags), the
date the corresponding tag was deprecated under the rules of &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC1766&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; and/or &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC3066&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
Is that close enough?</span></p>

<div>

<p>On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com" target="_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>

<div>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The cases where subtags were
deprecated &quot;before the subtag registry&quot; all focus on &quot;dead on
arrival&quot; items like il/he or id/in, AFAIK. Those were NOT in the tag
registry but have to do with ISO 639 or ISO 3166&nbsp; changes. Cf:</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">%%</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Type: region</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Subtag: DD</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Description: German Democratic Republic</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Added: 2005-10-16</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Preferred-Value: DE</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Deprecated: 1990-10-30</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">%%</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span></p>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillips</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization Architect --
Lab126</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Chair -- W3C
Internationalization Core WG</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationalization is not a
feature.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an architecture.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

</div>

<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phillips, Addison<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.</span></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Those are good changes; I have one further
suggestion below.<br>
<br>
I assume that all subtags with deprecation dates were either after the subtag
registry was formed or were in the tag registry. If that is not true, can we
discuss those cases?</p>

<div>

<p>On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com" target="_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</p>

<div>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Good catch, but with a few
minor edits needed. Primarily: it is not just grandfathered tags have this
problem. Redundant tags do too. Also, a few subtags have &quot;Date
A&quot;/&quot;Date B&quot; problems (cf. &#39;id&#39;). Note also that I say &#39;registered&#39;
rather than &#39;added&#39;. I also made the text more consistent with other field
types (avoiding the whole &quot;field-body&quot; locution).</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I made the one on Added read:</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Added&#39; contains the
date the record was registered or, in the case of grandfathered or redundant
tags, the</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">date the corresponding tag was
registered under the rules of &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC1766&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; and/or &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC3066&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">And Deprecated&#39;s reads:</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the
date the record was deprecated. Note that some registry entries, including both
a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated
prior to adoption of &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC4646&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;</span></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<p>=&gt;<br>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the
date the record was deprecated, or in the case of some registry entries
(including a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags), the
date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC1766&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; and/or &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC3066&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
[to be more parallel and have the first sentence be less misleading.]<br>
</span>&nbsp;</p>

</div>

<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt;">


<div>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This will, of course, appear in
draft-14.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillips</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization Architect --
Lab126</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Chair -- W3C
Internationalization Core WG</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationalization is not a
feature.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an architecture.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.</span></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">BCP 47 says:</p>

<div style="margin-left: 30pt;">

<p>o Added<br>
<br>
* Added&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was added to<br>
the registry.<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
o Deprecated<br>
<br>
* Deprecated&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was<br>
deprecated.</p>

</div>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
The normal reading of this would be the date that the record was added to the
language subtag registry, which is what is defined by BCP 47. That registry did
not exist, formally, until September 2006 (when BCP was issued). That makes the
following be inconsistent, since it has dates before 2006-09, and even before
2005-10-16:<br>
<br>
%%<br>
Type: grandfathered<br>
Tag: no-nyn<br>
Description: Norwegian Nynorsk<br>
Added: 1995-08-23<br>
Preferred-Value: nn<br>
Deprecated: 2000-02-18<br>
Comments: replaced by ISO code nn<br>
<br>
Suggested fix is:</p>

<div style="margin-left: 30pt;">

<p>o Added<br>
<br>
* Added&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was added to<br>
the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the<br>
date the corresponding entry was added to the RFC3066 IANA<br>
language tag registry.<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
o Deprecated<br>
<br>
* Deprecated&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was<br>
deprecated in the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the<br>
date the corresponding entry was deprecated in the RFC3066 IANA<br>
language tag registry.</p>

</div>

<p><br>
(Note that this also makes the text consistent with the 4645 description 2.9.)<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Mark </p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

<p><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Mark </p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Mark </p>

</div>

</div></div></div>

</div>

</div>


</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 13:21:49 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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I like the text you propose.

Note: I see nothing particularly wrong with zxx-Latn vs zxx-Grek. In the
former case I have content where language doesn't really apply and the
content is written in Latin characters; in the latter it is in Greek
characters. While the application for such tags is probably rare, it is not
meaningless.

Mark

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

> Karen wrote:
> >
> > Typo on "non-linguistic" in the third sentence.  I also added "dialog"
> > to
> > the last sentence. See my version. "Dialog" is not the same as
> > narration.
>
> Both changes done. Thanks.
>
> >
> > I would not include the third sentence. I would think it's my right to
> > create, say:
> >
> > zxx-x-music
> > zxx-x-silent
> > zxx-x-code
> > zxx-x-perl
>
> You're correct that it is your right to do so. This is actually the
> meaning of SHOULD NOT in my mind: you shouldn't do it, unless you have a
> good reason to do so. If you have a good reason, you're free to do so. What
> I think might be important (given certain threads on ietf-languages) is to
> indicate that "zxx-Latn", "zxx-GB", "zxx-scotland", and definitely
> "zxx-Latn-GB-scotland" are ill-considered.
>
> >
> > etc.
> >
> > In this case, I think no guidance is better.
> >
> You're probably right. Given Randy's note, I'll omit my two proposed bits
> of mustard and make the para:
>
> <t>The 'zxx' (Non-Linguistic, Not Applicable) primary language subtag
> identifies content for which a language classification is inappropriate or
> does not apply. Some examples might include instrumental or electronic
> music; sound recordings consisting of nonverbal sounds; audiovisual
> materials with no narration, dialog, printed titles, or subtitles;
> machine-readable data files consisting of machine languages or character
> codes; or programming source code.</t>
>
>
> ~Addison
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I like the text you propose.<br><br>Note: I see nothing particularly wrong with zxx-Latn vs zxx-Grek. In the former case I have content where language doesn&#39;t really apply and the content is written in Latin characters; in the latter it is in Greek characters. While the application for such tags is probably rare, it is not meaningless.<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">Karen wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Typo on &quot;non-linguistic&quot; in the third sentence. &nbsp;I also added &quot;dialog&quot;<br>
&gt; to<br>
&gt; the last sentence. See my version. &quot;Dialog&quot; is not the same as<br>
&gt; narration.<br>
<br>
</div>Both changes done. Thanks.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I would not include the third sentence. I would think it&#39;s my right to<br>
&gt; create, say:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; zxx-x-music<br>
&gt; zxx-x-silent<br>
&gt; zxx-x-code<br>
&gt; zxx-x-perl<br>
<br>
</div>You&#39;re correct that it is your right to do so. This is actually the meaning of SHOULD NOT in my mind: you shouldn&#39;t do it, unless you have a good reason to do so. If you have a good reason, you&#39;re free to do so. What I think might be important (given certain threads on ietf-languages) is to indicate that &quot;zxx-Latn&quot;, &quot;zxx-GB&quot;, &quot;zxx-scotland&quot;, and definitely &quot;zxx-Latn-GB-scotland&quot; are ill-considered.<br>

<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; etc.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In this case, I think no guidance is better.<br>
&gt;<br>
</div>You&#39;re probably right. Given Randy&#39;s note, I&#39;ll omit my two proposed bits of mustard and make the para:<br>
<br>
&lt;t&gt;The &#39;zxx&#39; (Non-Linguistic, Not Applicable) primary language subtag identifies content for which a language classification is inappropriate or does not apply. Some examples might include instrumental or electronic music; sound recordings consisting of nonverbal sounds; audiovisual materials with no narration, dialog, printed titles, or subtitles; machine-readable data files consisting of machine languages or character codes; or programming source code.&lt;/t&gt;<br>

<font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
~Addison<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Finishing up - prepare for second WG last call
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
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Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:37:55 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
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Looks good, let's go with it.

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 3:30 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

> (squinting) I suppose so, but that's why I was careful not to expand it
> out to say "in the subtag registry". 'Deprecated' indicates the date of
> deprecation of the value. In some cases, RFC 4645 merely repeats RFC 3066's
> imposed deprecation date. What's important is that some 'Deprecated' fields
> have dates earlier than the associated 'Added' field.
>
> Looking at the text a bit more, I think we ought to modify the section on
> Deprecated (rather than the brief explanation we're discussing) to have this
> information.  So I did the following.
>
> 1. Modified the text we're discussing to read:
>
> <t>Deprecated<list>
>        <t>Deprecated's field-body contains the date the record was
> deprecated.
>      In some cases this value is before that of the associated 'Added'
> field
>      in the registry. </t>
> </list></t>
>
> 2. Modified the subsection on 'Deprecated' to read:
>
> <section anchor="deprecatedfield" title="Deprecated Field">
>
> <t>The field 'Deprecated' MAY be added, changed, or removed from any
> record via the maintenance process described in <xref target="maintreg"/>
> or via the registration process described in <xref
> target="registrationProc"/>.
> Usually, the addition of a 'Deprecated' field is due to the action
> of one of the standards bodies, such as ISO 3166, withdrawing a code.
> Although valid in language tags, subtags and tags with a 'Deprecated'
> field are deprecated and validating processors SHOULD NOT generate these
> subtags. Note that a record that contains a 'Deprecated' field and no
> corresponding 'Preferred-Value' field has no replacement mapping.</t>
>
> <t>In some historical cases, it might not have been possible to
> reconstruct the original deprecation date. For these cases, an
> approximate date appears in the registry. Some subtags and some
> grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated before the initial
> creation of the registry. The exact rules for this appear in
> Section 2 of <xref target="RFC4645"></xref>. Note that these
> records have a 'Deprecated' field with an earlier date then
> the corresponding 'Added' field!</t>
>
> </section>
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
> From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On
> Behalf Of Mark Davis
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:11 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
> I know this is a nit, but the first sentence doesn't quite work. It says,
> expanded out, "'Deprecated' contains the date on which the record was made
> deprecated in the subtag registry". That is clearly false when the date is
> before the existence of the subtag registry. How about:
>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the
> case of a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags, the
> date the tag or subtag was deprecated according to Section 2 of <xref
> target="RFC4645"></xref>.</t>
> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
> Okay, after a little more thought, the right thing to do is reference the
> actual details. Here is my proposed text:
>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated. In the case
> of a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags, this date
> is prior to the initial creation of the IANA Language Subtag Registry. For
> details see Section 2 of <xref target="RFC4645"></xref>.</t>
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Phillips, Addison
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:01 AM
> To: Mark Davis
>
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
> I can move the "note" into the base sentence, but subtags deprecated prior
> to 4646 were not deprecated by rules in 1766/3066. (Your text works for
> grandfathered tags.) Subtag deprecation came from rules in 4646. Hence my
> phrase "prior to adoption of 4646" as a proxy for "deprecated before the
> subtag registry was formed".
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
> From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On
> Behalf Of Mark Davis
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:40 AM
> To: Phillips, Addison
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
> Ok, how about:
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated. Note that
> some registry entries, including both a few subtags and some of the
> grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption of <xref
> target="RFC4646"></xref>.</t>
> =>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the
> case of some registry entries (including a few subtags and some of the
> grandfathered or redundant tags), the date the corresponding tag was
> deprecated under the rules of <xref target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref
> target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>
>
> Is that close enough?
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
> The cases where subtags were deprecated "before the subtag registry" all
> focus on "dead on arrival" items like il/he or id/in, AFAIK. Those were NOT
> in the tag registry but have to do with ISO 639 or ISO 3166  changes. Cf:
>
> %%
> Type: region
> Subtag: DD
> Description: German Democratic Republic
> Added: 2005-10-16
> Preferred-Value: DE
> Deprecated: 1990-10-30
> %%
>
>
> Addison
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
> From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On
> Behalf Of Mark Davis
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:40 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
> Those are good changes; I have one further suggestion below.
>
> I assume that all subtags with deprecation dates were either after the
> subtag registry was formed or were in the tag registry. If that is not true,
> can we discuss those cases?
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
> Good catch, but with a few minor edits needed. Primarily: it is not just
> grandfathered tags have this problem. Redundant tags do too. Also, a few
> subtags have "Date A"/"Date B" problems (cf. 'id'). Note also that I say
> 'registered' rather than 'added'. I also made the text more consistent with
> other field types (avoiding the whole "field-body" locution).
>
> I made the one on Added read:
>
> --
> <t>'Added' contains the date the record was registered or, in the case of
> grandfathered or redundant tags, the
> date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of <xref
> target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>
> --
>
> And Deprecated's reads:
>
> --
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated. Note that
> some registry entries, including both a few subtags and some of the
> grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption of <xref
> target="RFC4646"></xref>.</t>
> =>
> <t>'Deprecated' contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the
> case of some registry entries (including a few subtags and some of the
> grandfathered or redundant tags), the date the corresponding tag was
> registered under the rules of <xref target="RFC1766"></xref> and/or <xref
> target="RFC3066"></xref>.</t>
>
> [to be more parallel and have the first sentence be less misleading.]
>
> --
>
> This will, of course, appear in draft-14.
>
> Addison
>
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Mark Davis
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:40 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.
>
> BCP 47 says:
> o Added
>
> * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to
> the registry.
>
> ...
>
> o Deprecated
>
> * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was
> deprecated.
>
> The normal reading of this would be the date that the record was added to
> the language subtag registry, which is what is defined by BCP 47. That
> registry did not exist, formally, until September 2006 (when BCP was
> issued). That makes the following be inconsistent, since it has dates before
> 2006-09, and even before 2005-10-16:
>
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: no-nyn
> Description: Norwegian Nynorsk
> Added: 1995-08-23
> Preferred-Value: nn
> Deprecated: 2000-02-18
> Comments: replaced by ISO code nn
>
> Suggested fix is:
> o Added
>
> * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to
> the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the
> date the corresponding entry was added to the RFC3066 IANA
> language tag registry.
>
> ...
>
> o Deprecated
>
> * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was
> deprecated in the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the
> date the corresponding entry was deprecated in the RFC3066 IANA
> language tag registry.
>
> (Note that this also makes the text consistent with the 4645 description
> 2.9.)
>
>
> --
> Mark
>
>
>
> --
> Mark
>
>
>
> --
> Mark
>
>
>
> --
> Mark
>



-- 
Mark

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Looks good, let&#39;s go with it.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 3:30 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
(squinting) I suppose so, but that's why I was careful not to expand it out to say "in the subtag registry". 'Deprecated' indicates the date of deprecation of the value. In some cases, RFC 4645 merely repeats RFC 3066's imposed deprecation date. What's important is that some 'Deprecated' fields have dates earlier than the associated 'Added' field.<br>

<br>
Looking at the text a bit more, I think we ought to modify the section on Deprecated (rather than the brief explanation we&#39;re discussing) to have this information. &nbsp;So I did the following.<br>
<br>
1. Modified the text we&#39;re discussing to read:<br>
<br>
&lt;t&gt;Deprecated&lt;list&gt;<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;t&gt;Deprecated&#39;s field-body contains the date the record was deprecated.<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In some cases this value is before that of the associated &#39;Added&#39; field<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;in the registry. &lt;/t&gt;<br>
&lt;/list&gt;&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
2. Modified the subsection on &#39;Deprecated&#39; to read:<br>
<br>
&lt;section anchor=&quot;deprecatedfield&quot; title=&quot;Deprecated Field&quot;&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;t&gt;The field &#39;Deprecated&#39; MAY be added, changed, or removed from any<br>
record via the maintenance process described in &lt;xref target=&quot;maintreg&quot;/&gt;<br>
or via the registration process described in &lt;xref target=&quot;registrationProc&quot;/&gt;.<br>
Usually, the addition of a &#39;Deprecated&#39; field is due to the action<br>
of one of the standards bodies, such as ISO 3166, withdrawing a code.<br>
Although valid in language tags, subtags and tags with a &#39;Deprecated&#39;<br>
field are deprecated and validating processors SHOULD NOT generate these<br>
subtags. Note that a record that contains a &#39;Deprecated&#39; field and no<br>
corresponding &#39;Preferred-Value&#39; field has no replacement mapping.&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;t&gt;In some historical cases, it might not have been possible to<br>
reconstruct the original deprecation date. For these cases, an<br>
approximate date appears in the registry. Some subtags and some<br>
grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated before the initial<br>
creation of the registry. The exact rules for this appear in<br>
Section 2 of &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC4645&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;. Note that these<br>
records have a &#39;Deprecated&#39; field with an earlier date then<br>
the corresponding &#39;Added&#39; field!&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;/section&gt;<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] On Behalf Of Mark Davis<br>
</div>Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:11 PM<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">To: Phillips, Addison<br>
Cc: LTRU Working Group<br>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.<br>
<br>
I know this is a nit, but the first sentence doesn&#39;t quite work. It says, expanded out, &quot;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date on which the record was made deprecated in the subtag registry&quot;. That is clearly false when the date is before the existence of the subtag registry. How about:<br>

<br>
&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the case of a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags, the date the tag or subtag was deprecated according to Section 2 of &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC4645&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
Okay, after a little more thought, the right thing to do is reference the actual details. Here is my proposed text:<br>
<br>
&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date the record was deprecated. In the case of a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags, this date is prior to the initial creation of the IANA Language Subtag Registry. For details see Section 2 of &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC4645&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>

<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Phillips, Addison<br>
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:01 AM<br>
To: Mark Davis<br>
<br>
Cc: LTRU Working Group<br>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.<br>
<br>
I can move the &quot;note&quot; into the base sentence, but subtags deprecated prior to 4646 were not deprecated by rules in 1766/3066. (Your text works for grandfathered tags.) Subtag deprecation came from rules in 4646. Hence my phrase &quot;prior to adoption of 4646&quot; as a proxy for &quot;deprecated before the subtag registry was formed&quot;.<br>

<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] On Behalf Of Mark Davis<br>
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:40 AM<br>
To: Phillips, Addison<br>
Cc: LTRU Working Group<br>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.<br>
<br>
Ok, how about:<br>
&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date the record was deprecated. Note that some registry entries, including both a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption of &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC4646&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>

=&gt;<br>
&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the case of some registry entries (including a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags), the date the corresponding tag was deprecated under the rules of &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC1766&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; and/or &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC3066&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>

<br>
Is that close enough?<br>
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
The cases where subtags were deprecated &quot;before the subtag registry&quot; all focus on &quot;dead on arrival&quot; items like il/he or id/in, AFAIK. Those were NOT in the tag registry but have to do with ISO 639 or ISO 3166 &nbsp;changes. Cf:<br>

<br>
%%<br>
Type: region<br>
Subtag: DD<br>
Description: German Democratic Republic<br>
Added: 2005-10-16<br>
Preferred-Value: DE<br>
Deprecated: 1990-10-30<br>
%%<br>
<br>
<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] On Behalf Of Mark Davis<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:40 PM<br>
To: Phillips, Addison<br>
Cc: LTRU Working Group<br>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.<br>
<br>
Those are good changes; I have one further suggestion below.<br>
<br>
I assume that all subtags with deprecation dates were either after the subtag registry was formed or were in the tag registry. If that is not true, can we discuss those cases?<br>
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
Good catch, but with a few minor edits needed. Primarily: it is not just grandfathered tags have this problem. Redundant tags do too. Also, a few subtags have &quot;Date A&quot;/&quot;Date B&quot; problems (cf. &#39;id&#39;). Note also that I say &#39;registered&#39; rather than &#39;added&#39;. I also made the text more consistent with other field types (avoiding the whole &quot;field-body&quot; locution).<br>

<br>
I made the one on Added read:<br>
<br>
--<br>
&lt;t&gt;&#39;Added&#39; contains the date the record was registered or, in the case of grandfathered or redundant tags, the<br>
date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC1766&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; and/or &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC3066&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>
--<br>
<br>
And Deprecated&#39;s reads:<br>
<br>
--<br>
&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date the record was deprecated. Note that some registry entries, including both a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags were deprecated prior to adoption of &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC4646&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>

=&gt;<br>
&lt;t&gt;&#39;Deprecated&#39; contains the date the record was deprecated, or in the case of some registry entries (including a few subtags and some of the grandfathered or redundant tags), the date the corresponding tag was registered under the rules of &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC1766&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; and/or &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC3066&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>

<br>
[to be more parallel and have the first sentence be less misleading.]<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
This will, of course, appear in draft-14.<br>
<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Mark Davis<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:40 PM<br>
To: LTRU Working Group<br>
Subject: [Ltru] Inconsistency in descriptions in BCP 47.<br>
<br>
BCP 47 says:<br>
o Added<br>
<br>
* Added&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was added to<br>
the registry.<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
o Deprecated<br>
<br>
* Deprecated&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was<br>
deprecated.<br>
<br>
The normal reading of this would be the date that the record was added to the language subtag registry, which is what is defined by BCP 47. That registry did not exist, formally, until September 2006 (when BCP was issued). That makes the following be inconsistent, since it has dates before 2006-09, and even before 2005-10-16:<br>

<br>
%%<br>
Type: grandfathered<br>
Tag: no-nyn<br>
Description: Norwegian Nynorsk<br>
Added: 1995-08-23<br>
Preferred-Value: nn<br>
Deprecated: 2000-02-18<br>
Comments: replaced by ISO code nn<br>
<br>
Suggested fix is:<br>
o Added<br>
<br>
* Added&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was added to<br>
the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the<br>
date the corresponding entry was added to the RFC3066 IANA<br>
language tag registry.<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
o Deprecated<br>
<br>
* Deprecated&#39;s field-value contains the date the record was<br>
deprecated in the IANA language subtag registry or, if grandfathered, the<br>
date the corresponding entry was deprecated in the RFC3066 IANA<br>
language tag registry.<br>
<br>
(Note that this also makes the text consistent with the 4645 description 2.9.)<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Mark<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax
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Going through this old e-mail sent to another list, I realize an 
unmentioned Sony Pictures scenario where I don't have a great answer given 
the new rules. So here's a simple question that the draft should answer. 
What's the best tag to use for *spoken* Taiwanese Mandarin?

I can't use zh-TW. That's a written form -- Traditional Mandarin.
I can't use zh-Hans-TW or zh-Hant-TW -- Those will always be "Taiwan 
Chinese in simplified/traditional script". Not what I want.
cmn-TW needs a Very Good Reason, which it seems to have here, but the cmn 
tag is still not well recognized, especially without the "zh". This same 
user reads in "zh" which seems to create an unnecessary complexity.

Am I missing something? Do we need to register a variant of Mandarin for 
Taiwanese Mandarin? It seems like the region code semantics aren't right 
in the context of historical tags. I hate to say it, but extlang still 
seems so much cleaner for my audio/text language breakdown. Do we like 
that Chinese Internet users will have different tags for written and 
spoken forms of their language? Maybe that's the reality of the situation, 
but it will create logic complexities that developers might not welcome. 
Something here still makes me queasy.

If the problem is simply that I haven't had enough coffee today, I 
apologize in advance for raising this ugly issue again. A discussion of 
the forms of Norwegian on another list made me think about this again. 
I've been trying to look the other way....

Regards,

Karen Broome

www-international-request@w3.org wrote on 01/21/2008 02:12:44 PM:

> 
> Hi Richard,
> 
> Some notes follow.
> > 
> > 
> > It would be good to have the bulk of the text below available in 
> some publicly accessible form so that we can point to it.
> 
> Well, of course, my email now is accessible :-). However, I intend to 
> write a new bit of guidance once things settle down a bit (a la the ML 
> article you adapted previously) since this bears documenting widely, 
> loudly, early and often [lest there be confusion]
> 
> > 
> > Also, I'm wondering what are the implications wrt use of zh and 
> the cmn, yue, etc subtags.  Are we expecting zh to be used only for 
> things like zh-Hans and zh-Hant?  Can we still use it in a vague way
> to mean 'some kind of chinese'?  Will the zh-cmn etc tags be deprecated? 
etc.
> 
> There is guidance in draft-4646bis on this topic (at [1]). The relevant 
> paragraphs currently read:
> 
> ---
> In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag. 
> However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to 
> denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place of 
> the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary 
> to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed 
> dominant language variety.
> 
> In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special 
> consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most 
> languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because 
> historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not 
> available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used 
> either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. This means 

> that macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when searching 
> for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation. For 
> example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be 

> used in the Lookup algorithm to fallback from a request for 
> "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without losing the script and region 
> information (even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their 
> request).
> ---
> 
> Basically, the idea is:
> 
> - Use 'zh' when you mean "Chinese" undifferentiated by a regional 
> language. Since Mandarin Chinese is (by most measures) the "dominant 
> encompassed language" [because most written Chinese documents use a 
> standardized form which is essentially Mandarin Chinese], this means 
> that 'zh' should be used in preference to 'cmn' (or other subtags) for 
> most Chinese content. This is especially true for most Web document 
> formats (such as HTML, XML+*, and so on). Practically speaking, this 
> means that you won't need to retag most content.
> 
> - Use 'yue' (and related tags, such as 'yue-Hant' or 'yue-HK') when you 
> need to indicate "Cantonese (Yue) Chinese" as distinct from Chinese. 
> Typically this will be audio (or video) content, since most written 
> documents actually use a Mandarin form. Of course, written Cantonese 
> (while relatively rare) also exists and should be tagged with the 'yue' 
> subtag. Note that, with the exception of 'cmn', this applies to all of 
> the other encompassed language subtags.
> 
> - Use 'cmn' when you need to indicate "Mandarin Chinese" as distinct 
> from Chinese in general. This case is rare and should be avoided 
> whenever possible. A better way to write that would be: "Do NOT use 
> 'cmn' unless you have a Very Good Reason."
> 
> - Replace existing grandfathered tags such as 'zh-yue' with their subtag 

> equivalent (i.e. 'yue').
> 
> - If you speak a Chinese language other than Mandarin, add that language 

> into your "language priority list" (e.g. HTTP Accept-Language in your 
> browser) *before* you include the 'zh-*' range, and include both. For 
> example, if you are a Cantonese speaker from Hong Kong, you might use a 
> list like:
> 
>    Accept-Language: yue-Hant-HK;q=1.0,zh-Hant-HK;q=0.8
> 
> It is important to note that, despite the foregoing, the subtag 'zh' 
> does NOT mean strictly Mandarin. It just happens to be the case that 
> most 'zh' content turns out to be Mandarin.
> 
> Hope that helps. I look forward to writing some guidelines on this topic 

> soon.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Addison
> 
> [1] 
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.html#choice
> 
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > RI
> > 
> > ============
> > Richard Ishida
> > Internationalization Lead
> > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> > 
> > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > http://rishida.net/blog/
> > http://rishida.net/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: member-i18n-core-request@w3.org [mailto:member-i18n-core-
> >> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Addison Phillips
> >> Sent: 17 January 2008 05:19
> >> To: I18N
> >> Cc: member-i18n-core@w3.org
> >> Subject: Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax
> >>
> >>
> >> In this week's Internationalization Core WG teleconference, I drew an
> >> action item [1] to provide more information about a proposed change 
to
> >> the language tag ABNF (the grammar or formal syntax) in the proposed
> >> successor to RFC 4646. That's because the W3C created several 
documents
> >> [2] and [3] at about the time RFC 4646 came into being describing
> >> language tags. Parts of these documents speculate about a potential
> >> future feature of language tags that is now being removed or will not 
be
> >> used. The I18N Core WG is now preparing to revise this document to 
keep
> >> it current, and, as co-editor of the proposed replacement, I've been
> >> following the details closely.
> >>
> >> As many of you know, RFC 4646 was created as a successor to RFC 3066 
as
> >> the document defining "BCP 47", the language tagging standard for
> >> Internet (and other) technologies. You may know "BCP 47" as 
"xml:lang"
> >> or as the values in the HTTP Accept-Language header, for example.
> >>
> >> RFC 4646 provided a more complex syntax that defined several new
> >> "flavors" of subtag in addition to the language and region subtags 
that
> >> had been formally defined previously. Most of these new types were 
fully
> >> defined in 4646. However, one type of subtag was reserved for future
> >> use: the "extended language" subtags, or, colloquially, "extlangs".
> >>
> >> Extended language subtags were intended to accommodate a feature of 
ISO
> >> 639-3, whereby some languages were considered to be encompassed by
> >> existing languages, which were called "macro-languages". For example,
> >> Mandarin Chinese and Cantonese are both distinct languages that have
> >> their own codes in ISO 639-3 (these are 'cmn' and 'yue' 
respectively).
> >> Both of these languages (with several others) are encompassed by the
> >> Macrolanguage called "Chinese", which is represented by the code 'zh' 
in
> >> language tags.
> >>
> >> At the time 4646 was created, the IETF working group theorized that
> >> language tags for these languages would use both the macro- and
> >> encompassed language codes together. For example, a Cantonese (yue)
> >> document written in the Traditional script (Hant) for Hong Kong (HK)
> >> would use a tag like "zh-yue-Hant-HK".
> >>
> >> However, after a great deal of debate and consideration, it was 
decided
> >> that this extlang feature would NOT be used. The encompassed and
> >> macrolanguage codes would both appear as potential primary language
> >> subtags and the extended language subtag would not be used. Thus, for
> >> example, the document described above would use the tag 
"yue-Hant-HK".
> >>
> >> It should be noted that the IETF working group for language tags has
> >> also decided to remove the extlang production from the language tag
> >> syntax. This production was explicitly reserved for future use and no
> >> tags have ever been valid that used it. A few tags were registered
> >> during the RFC 3066 era that appear to use these subtags, but these 
were
> >> separately handled by the "grandfathered" productions in the grammar.
> >>
> >> Removing extlang altogether will simplify writing language tag
> >> processors and relex some of the minimum length requirements 
previously
> >> imposed.
> >>
> >> Finally, this move was not taken without considerable debate and
> >> discussion. Some of the macrolanguages are obscure, but Chinese and
> >> Arabic languages are among those affected. Those interested in the
> >> macrolanguage mapping list can refer to the ISO639-3RA's page showing
> >> the current mappings [4].
> >>
> >> The proposed successor is now nearing completion. A link to the 
current
> >> draft of the document can be found on my page [5], along with links 
to
> >> the IETF LTRU WG responsible for this document, the mail archive, and 
so
> >> forth.
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >> Addison
> >>
> >> [1] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-core-minutes.html#action04
> >> [2] http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/
> >> [3] http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/#iana
> >> [4] http://www.sil.org/iso639%2D3/macrolanguages.asp
> >> [5] http://www.inter-locale.com
> >>
> >> --
> >> Addison Phillips
> >> Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
> >> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
> >>
> >> Internationalization is an architecture.
> >> It is not a feature.
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
> 
> Internationalization is an architecture.
> It is not a feature.
> 
> 

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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Going through this old e-mail sent to
another list, I realize an unmentioned Sony Pictures scenario where I don't
have a great answer given the new rules. So here's a simple question that
the draft should answer. What's the best tag to use for *spoken* Taiwanese
Mandarin?</font>
<br>
<ul>
<li><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I can't use zh-TW. That's a written
form -- Traditional Mandarin.</font>
<li><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I can't use zh-Hans-TW or zh-Hant-TW
-- Those will always be &quot;Taiwan Chinese in simplified/traditional
script&quot;. Not what I want.</font>
<li><font size=2 face="sans-serif">cmn-TW needs a Very Good Reason, which
it seems to have here, but the cmn tag is still not well recognized, especially
without the &quot;zh&quot;. This same user reads in &quot;zh&quot; which
seems to create an unnecessary complexity.</font></ul>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Am I missing something? Do we need to
register a variant of Mandarin for Taiwanese Mandarin? It seems like the
region code semantics aren't right in the context of historical tags. I
hate to say it, but extlang still seems so much cleaner for my audio/text
language breakdown. Do we like that Chinese Internet users will have different
tags for written and spoken forms of their language? Maybe that's the reality
of the situation, but it will create logic complexities that developers
might not welcome. Something here still makes me queasy.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">If the problem is simply that I haven't
had enough coffee today, I apologize in advance for raising this ugly issue
again. A discussion of the forms of Norwegian on another list made me think
about this again. I've been trying to look the other way....</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Karen Broome</font>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>www-international-request@w3.org wrote on 01/21/2008
02:12:44 PM:<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Richard,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Some notes follow.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; It would be good to have the bulk of the text below available
in <br>
&gt; some publicly accessible form so that we can point to it.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Well, of course, my email now is accessible :-). However, I intend
to <br>
&gt; write a new bit of guidance once things settle down a bit (a la the
ML <br>
&gt; article you adapted previously) since this bears documenting widely,
<br>
&gt; loudly, early and often [lest there be confusion]<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Also, I'm wondering what are the implications wrt use of zh and
<br>
&gt; the cmn, yue, etc subtags. &nbsp;Are we expecting zh to be used only
for <br>
&gt; things like zh-Hans and zh-Hant? &nbsp;Can we still use it in a vague
way<br>
&gt; to mean 'some kind of chinese'? &nbsp;Will the zh-cmn etc tags be
deprecated? etc.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; There is guidance in draft-4646bis on this topic (at [1]). The relevant
<br>
&gt; paragraphs currently read:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ---<br>
&gt; In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag.
<br>
&gt; However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to
<br>
&gt; denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place
of <br>
&gt; the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary
<br>
&gt; to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed
<br>
&gt; dominant language variety.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special <br>
&gt; consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most <br>
&gt; languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because <br>
&gt; historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not
<br>
&gt; available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically
used <br>
&gt; either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. This
means <br>
&gt; that macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when searching
<br>
&gt; for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation. For
<br>
&gt; example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could
be <br>
&gt; used in the Lookup algorithm to fallback from a request for <br>
&gt; &quot;yue-Hans-CN&quot; to &quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot; without losing the
script and region <br>
&gt; information (even though the user did not specify &quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot;
in their <br>
&gt; request).<br>
&gt; ---<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Basically, the idea is:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - Use 'zh' when you mean &quot;Chinese&quot; undifferentiated by a
regional <br>
&gt; language. Since Mandarin Chinese is (by most measures) the &quot;dominant
<br>
&gt; encompassed language&quot; [because most written Chinese documents
use a <br>
&gt; standardized form which is essentially Mandarin Chinese], this means
<br>
&gt; that 'zh' should be used in preference to 'cmn' (or other subtags)
for <br>
&gt; most Chinese content. This is especially true for most Web document
<br>
&gt; formats (such as HTML, XML+*, and so on). Practically speaking, this
<br>
&gt; means that you won't need to retag most content.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - Use 'yue' (and related tags, such as 'yue-Hant' or 'yue-HK') when
you <br>
&gt; need to indicate &quot;Cantonese (Yue) Chinese&quot; as distinct from
Chinese. <br>
&gt; Typically this will be audio (or video) content, since most written
<br>
&gt; documents actually use a Mandarin form. Of course, written Cantonese
<br>
&gt; (while relatively rare) also exists and should be tagged with the
'yue' <br>
&gt; subtag. Note that, with the exception of 'cmn', this applies to all
of <br>
&gt; the other encompassed language subtags.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - Use 'cmn' when you need to indicate &quot;Mandarin Chinese&quot;
as distinct <br>
&gt; from Chinese in general. This case is rare and should be avoided <br>
&gt; whenever possible. A better way to write that would be: &quot;Do NOT
use <br>
&gt; 'cmn' unless you have a Very Good Reason.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - Replace existing grandfathered tags such as 'zh-yue' with their
subtag <br>
&gt; equivalent (i.e. 'yue').<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - If you speak a Chinese language other than Mandarin, add that language
<br>
&gt; into your &quot;language priority list&quot; (e.g. HTTP Accept-Language
in your <br>
&gt; browser) *before* you include the 'zh-*' range, and include both.
For <br>
&gt; example, if you are a Cantonese speaker from Hong Kong, you might
use a <br>
&gt; list like:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Accept-Language: yue-Hant-HK;q=1.0,zh-Hant-HK;q=0.8<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It is important to note that, despite the foregoing, the subtag 'zh'
<br>
&gt; does NOT mean strictly Mandarin. It just happens to be the case that
<br>
&gt; most 'zh' content turns out to be Mandarin.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hope that helps. I look forward to writing some guidelines on this
topic <br>
&gt; soon.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Best,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Addison<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; [1] </font></tt><a href="http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.html#choice"><tt><font size=2>http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.html#choice<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; &gt; RI<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; ============<br>
&gt; &gt; Richard Ishida<br>
&gt; &gt; Internationalization Lead<br>
&gt; &gt; W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt; </font></tt><a href=http://www.w3.org/International/><tt><font size=2>http://www.w3.org/International/<br>
&gt; &gt; </font></tt><a href=http://rishida.net/blog/><tt><font size=2>http://rishida.net/blog/<br>
&gt; &gt; </font></tt><a href=http://rishida.net/><tt><font size=2>http://rishida.net/<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; From: member-i18n-core-request@w3.org [mailto:member-i18n-core-<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Addison Phillips<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: 17 January 2008 05:19<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; To: I18N<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: member-i18n-core@w3.org<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; In this week's Internationalization Core WG teleconference,
I drew an<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; action item [1] to provide more information about a proposed
change to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the language tag ABNF (the grammar or formal syntax) in the
proposed<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; successor to RFC 4646. That's because the W3C created several
documents<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; [2] and [3] at about the time RFC 4646 came into being describing<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; language tags. Parts of these documents speculate about a
potential<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; future feature of language tags that is now being removed
or will not be<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; used. The I18N Core WG is now preparing to revise this document
to keep<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; it current, and, as co-editor of the proposed replacement,
I've been<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; following the details closely.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; As many of you know, RFC 4646 was created as a successor
to RFC 3066 as<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the document defining &quot;BCP 47&quot;, the language tagging
standard for<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Internet (and other) technologies. You may know &quot;BCP
47&quot; as &quot;xml:lang&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; or as the values in the HTTP Accept-Language header, for
example.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; RFC 4646 provided a more complex syntax that defined several
new<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;flavors&quot; of subtag in addition to the language
and region subtags that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; had been formally defined previously. Most of these new types
were fully<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; defined in 4646. However, one type of subtag was reserved
for future<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; use: the &quot;extended language&quot; subtags, or, colloquially,
&quot;extlangs&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Extended language subtags were intended to accommodate a
feature of ISO<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; 639-3, whereby some languages were considered to be encompassed
by<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; existing languages, which were called &quot;macro-languages&quot;.
For example,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Mandarin Chinese and Cantonese are both distinct languages
that have<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; their own codes in ISO 639-3 (these are 'cmn' and 'yue' respectively).<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Both of these languages (with several others) are encompassed
by the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Macrolanguage called &quot;Chinese&quot;, which is represented
by the code 'zh' in<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; language tags.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; At the time 4646 was created, the IETF working group theorized
that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; language tags for these languages would use both the macro-
and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; encompassed language codes together. For example, a Cantonese
(yue)<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; document written in the Traditional script (Hant) for Hong
Kong (HK)<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; would use a tag like &quot;zh-yue-Hant-HK&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; However, after a great deal of debate and consideration,
it was decided<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; that this extlang feature would NOT be used. The encompassed
and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; macrolanguage codes would both appear as potential primary
language<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; subtags and the extended language subtag would not be used.
Thus, for<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; example, the document described above would use the tag &quot;yue-Hant-HK&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; It should be noted that the IETF working group for language
tags has<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; also decided to remove the extlang production from the language
tag<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; syntax. This production was explicitly reserved for future
use and no<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; tags have ever been valid that used it. A few tags were registered<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; during the RFC 3066 era that appear to use these subtags,
but these were<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; separately handled by the &quot;grandfathered&quot; productions
in the grammar.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Removing extlang altogether will simplify writing language
tag<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; processors and relex some of the minimum length requirements
previously<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; imposed.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Finally, this move was not taken without considerable debate
and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; discussion. Some of the macrolanguages are obscure, but Chinese
and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Arabic languages are among those affected. Those interested
in the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; macrolanguage mapping list can refer to the ISO639-3RA's
page showing<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the current mappings [4].<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The proposed successor is now nearing completion. A link
to the current<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; draft of the document can be found on my page [5], along
with links to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the IETF LTRU WG responsible for this document, the mail
archive, and so<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; forth.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Best Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Addison<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; [1] </font></tt><a href="http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-core-minutes.html#action04"><tt><font size=2>http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-core-minutes.html#action04<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; [2] </font></tt><a href=http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/><tt><font size=2>http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; [3] </font></tt><a href="http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/#iana"><tt><font size=2>http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/#iana<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; [4] </font></tt><a href=http://www.sil.org/iso639%2D3/macrolanguages.asp><tt><font size=2>http://www.sil.org/iso639%2D3/macrolanguages.asp<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; [5] </font></tt><a href="http://www.inter-locale.com/"><tt><font size=2>http://www.inter-locale.com<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Addison Phillips<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Internationalization is an architecture.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; It is not a feature.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; Addison Phillips<br>
&gt; Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.<br>
&gt; Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Internationalization is an architecture.<br>
&gt; It is not a feature.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
</font></tt></a></a></a></a></a></a></a></a></a>
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May  1 20:21:33 2008
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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	Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax
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Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit:

> I can't use zh-TW. That's a written form -- Traditional Mandarin.

Say rather that for many years it was abused to mean that.  But the
proper tag for that meaning is zh-Hant.  If you want to talk about
Taiwanese Mandarin, zh-TW *is* the appropriate tag, and should be used,
particularly in a data field that is known to refer to spoken language
(IIRC you tag spoken and subtitle languages separately).

> I can't use zh-Hans-TW or zh-Hant-TW -- Those will always be "Taiwan 
> Chinese in simplified/traditional script". Not what I want.

Right.

-- 
John Cowan    http://ccil.org/~cowan  cowan@ccil.org
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Phillips, Addison
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:55 AM


> I would therefore suggest:
>
>
> <t>The 'zxx' (Non-Linguistic, Not Applicable) primary language subtag
> identifies content for which a language classification is inappropriate
> or does not apply. This subtag SHOULD NOT be used unless a language tag
> is required, since the content to which it applies typically is not
> suitable for identification with a language tag. It also SHOULD NOT be
> combined with other subtags, since other subtags have no real meaning
> in a non-lingusitic context.

I'm not sure I see the need for that last sentence, and wonder if it might be overly restricting. BCP47 provides a tagging scheme that can be usefully applied to a wider range of applications than those which any of us may have had in mind, and if it's useful in a given application context to create tags along the lines of "zxx-Hebr" then it might be unhelpful for us to discourage that. What would we be trying to protect ourselves from?


Peter



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I apologize for not expressing myself well in the previous e-mail.
Disregard first comment about zh-TW. I will try to clarify in the morning.

Karen


-----ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote: -----

To: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.k
Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
Date: 05/01/2008 03:30PM
cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax


Going through this old e-mail sent to
another list, I realize an unmentioned Sony Pictures scenario where I don't
have a great answer given the new rules. So here's a simple question that
the draft should answer. What's the best tag to use for *spoken* Taiwanese
Mandarin?



I can't use zh-TW. That's a written
form -- Traditional Mandarin.

I can't use zh-Hans-TW or zh-Hant-TW
-- Those will always be "Taiwan Chinese in simplified/traditional
script". Not what I want.

cmn-TW needs a Very Good Reason, which
it seems to have here, but the cmn tag is still not well recognized,
especially
without the "zh". This same user reads in "zh" which
seems to create an unnecessary complexity.

Am I missing something? Do we need to
register a variant of Mandarin for Taiwanese Mandarin? It seems like the
region code semantics aren't right in the context of historical tags. I
hate to say it, but extlang still seems so much cleaner for my audio/text
language breakdown. Do we like that Chinese Internet users will have
different
tags for written and spoken forms of their language? Maybe that's the
reality
of the situation, but it will create logic complexities that developers
might not welcome. Something here still makes me queasy.


If the problem is simply that I haven't
had enough coffee today, I apologize in advance for raising this ugly issue
again. A discussion of the forms of Norwegian on another list made me think
about this again. I've been trying to look the other way....


Regards,


Karen Broome


www-international-request@w3.org wrote on 01/21/2008
02:12:44 PM:


>

> Hi Richard,

>

> Some notes follow.

> >

> >

> > It would be good to have the bulk of the text below available
in

> some publicly accessible form so that we can point to it.

>

> Well, of course, my email now is accessible :-). However, I intend
to

> write a new bit of guidance once things settle down a bit (a la the
ML

> article you adapted previously) since this bears documenting widely,

> loudly, early and often [lest there be confusion]

>

> >

> > Also, I'm wondering what are the implications wrt use of zh and

> the cmn, yue, etc subtags.  Are we expecting zh to be used only
for

> things like zh-Hans and zh-Hant?  Can we still use it in a vague
way

> to mean 'some kind of chinese'?  Will the zh-cmn etc tags be
deprecated? etc.

>

> There is guidance in draft-4646bis on this topic (at [1]). The relevant

> paragraphs currently read:

>

> ---

> In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag.

> However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to

> denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place
of

> the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary

> to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed

> dominant language variety.

>

> In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special

> consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most

> languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because

> historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not

> available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically
used

> either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. This
means

> that macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when searching

> for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation. For

> example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could
be

> used in the Lookup algorithm to fallback from a request for

> "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without losing the
script and region

> information (even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN"
in their

> request).

> ---

>

> Basically, the idea is:

>

> - Use 'zh' when you mean "Chinese" undifferentiated by a
regional

> language. Since Mandarin Chinese is (by most measures) the "dominant

> encompassed language" [because most written Chinese documents
use a

> standardized form which is essentially Mandarin Chinese], this means

> that 'zh' should be used in preference to 'cmn' (or other subtags)
for

> most Chinese content. This is especially true for most Web document

> formats (such as HTML, XML+*, and so on). Practically speaking, this

> means that you won't need to retag most content.

>

> - Use 'yue' (and related tags, such as 'yue-Hant' or 'yue-HK') when
you

> need to indicate "Cantonese (Yue) Chinese" as distinct from
Chinese.

> Typically this will be audio (or video) content, since most written

> documents actually use a Mandarin form. Of course, written Cantonese

> (while relatively rare) also exists and should be tagged with the
'yue'

> subtag. Note that, with the exception of 'cmn', this applies to all
of

> the other encompassed language subtags.

>

> - Use 'cmn' when you need to indicate "Mandarin Chinese"
as distinct

> from Chinese in general. This case is rare and should be avoided

> whenever possible. A better way to write that would be: "Do NOT
use

> 'cmn' unless you have a Very Good Reason."

>

> - Replace existing grandfathered tags such as 'zh-yue' with their
subtag

> equivalent (i.e. 'yue').

>

> - If you speak a Chinese language other than Mandarin, add that language

> into your "language priority list" (e.g. HTTP Accept-Language
in your

> browser) *before* you include the 'zh-*' range, and include both.
For

> example, if you are a Cantonese speaker from Hong Kong, you might
use a

> list like:

>

>    Accept-Language: yue-Hant-HK;q=1.0,zh-Hant-HK;q=0.8

>

> It is important to note that, despite the foregoing, the subtag 'zh'

> does NOT mean strictly Mandarin. It just happens to be the case that

> most 'zh' content turns out to be Mandarin.

>

> Hope that helps. I look forward to writing some guidelines on this
topic

> soon.

>

> Best,

>

> Addison

>

> [1]
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.html#choice

>

> >

> > Cheers,

> > RI

> >

> > ============

> > Richard Ishida

> > Internationalization Lead

> > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

> >

> >
http://www.w3.org/International/

> >
http://rishida.net/blog/

> >
http://rishida.net/

> >

> >

> >

> >> -----Original Message-----

> >> From: member-i18n-core-request@w3.org [mailto:member-i18n-core-

> >> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Addison Phillips

> >> Sent: 17 January 2008 05:19

> >> To: I18N

> >> Cc: member-i18n-core@w3.org

> >> Subject: Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax

> >>

> >>

> >> In this week's Internationalization Core WG teleconference,
I drew an

> >> action item [1] to provide more information about a proposed
change to

> >> the language tag ABNF (the grammar or formal syntax) in the
proposed

> >> successor to RFC 4646. That's because the W3C created several
documents

> >> [2] and [3] at about the time RFC 4646 came into being describing

> >> language tags. Parts of these documents speculate about a
potential

> >> future feature of language tags that is now being removed
or will not be

> >> used. The I18N Core WG is now preparing to revise this document
to keep

> >> it current, and, as co-editor of the proposed replacement,
I've been

> >> following the details closely.

> >>

> >> As many of you know, RFC 4646 was created as a successor
to RFC 3066 as

> >> the document defining "BCP 47", the language tagging
standard for

> >> Internet (and other) technologies. You may know "BCP
47" as "xml:lang"

> >> or as the values in the HTTP Accept-Language header, for
example.

> >>

> >> RFC 4646 provided a more complex syntax that defined several
new

> >> "flavors" of subtag in addition to the language
and region subtags that

> >> had been formally defined previously. Most of these new types
were fully

> >> defined in 4646. However, one type of subtag was reserved
for future

> >> use: the "extended language" subtags, or, colloquially,
"extlangs".

> >>

> >> Extended language subtags were intended to accommodate a
feature of ISO

> >> 639-3, whereby some languages were considered to be encompassed
by

> >> existing languages, which were called "macro-languages".
For example,

> >> Mandarin Chinese and Cantonese are both distinct languages
that have

> >> their own codes in ISO 639-3 (these are 'cmn' and 'yue' respectively).

> >> Both of these languages (with several others) are encompassed
by the

> >> Macrolanguage called "Chinese", which is represented
by the code 'zh' in

> >> language tags.

> >>

> >> At the time 4646 was created, the IETF working group theorized
that

> >> language tags for these languages would use both the macro-
and

> >> encompassed language codes together. For example, a Cantonese
(yue)

> >> document written in the Traditional script (Hant) for Hong
Kong (HK)

> >> would use a tag like "zh-yue-Hant-HK".

> >>

> >> However, after a great deal of debate and consideration,
it was decided

> >> that this extlang feature would NOT be used. The encompassed
and

> >> macrolanguage codes would both appear as potential primary
language

> >> subtags and the extended language subtag would not be used.
Thus, for

> >> example, the document described above would use the tag "yue-Hant-HK".

> >>

> >> It should be noted that the IETF working group for language
tags has

> >> also decided to remove the extlang production from the language
tag

> >> syntax. This production was explicitly reserved for future
use and no

> >> tags have ever been valid that used it. A few tags were registered

> >> during the RFC 3066 era that appear to use these subtags,
but these were

> >> separately handled by the "grandfathered" productions
in the grammar.

> >>

> >> Removing extlang altogether will simplify writing language
tag

> >> processors and relex some of the minimum length requirements
previously

> >> imposed.

> >>

> >> Finally, this move was not taken without considerable debate
and

> >> discussion. Some of the macrolanguages are obscure, but Chinese
and

> >> Arabic languages are among those affected. Those interested
in the

> >> macrolanguage mapping list can refer to the ISO639-3RA's
page showing

> >> the current mappings [4].

> >>

> >> The proposed successor is now nearing completion. A link
to the current

> >> draft of the document can be found on my page [5], along
with links to

> >> the IETF LTRU WG responsible for this document, the mail
archive, and so

> >> forth.

> >>

> >> Best Regards,

> >>

> >> Addison

> >>

> >> [1]
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-core-minutes.html#action04

> >> [2]
http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/

> >> [3]
http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/#iana

> >> [4]
http://www.sil.org/iso639%2D3/macrolanguages.asp

> >> [5]
http://www.inter-locale.com

> >>

> >> --

> >> Addison Phillips

> >> Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

> >> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

> >>

> >> Internationalization is an architecture.

> >> It is not a feature.

> >

>

>

> --

> Addison Phillips

> Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

>

> Internationalization is an architecture.

> It is not a feature.

>

>

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Now that you point it out, I agree. It is, as I had said, meaningful to have
zxx-Arab or zxx-Hant.

Mark

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > Phillips, Addison
> > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:55 AM
>
>
> > I would therefore suggest:
> >
> >
> > <t>The 'zxx' (Non-Linguistic, Not Applicable) primary language subtag
> > identifies content for which a language classification is inappropriate
> > or does not apply. This subtag SHOULD NOT be used unless a language tag
> > is required, since the content to which it applies typically is not
> > suitable for identification with a language tag. It also SHOULD NOT be
> > combined with other subtags, since other subtags have no real meaning
> > in a non-lingusitic context.
>
> I'm not sure I see the need for that last sentence, and wonder if it might
> be overly restricting. BCP47 provides a tagging scheme that can be usefully
> applied to a wider range of applications than those which any of us may have
> had in mind, and if it's useful in a given application context to create
> tags along the lines of "zxx-Hebr" then it might be unhelpful for us to
> discourage that. What would we be trying to protect ourselves from?
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>



-- 
Mark

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Now that you point it out, I agree. It is, as I had said, meaningful to have zxx-Arab or zxx-Hant.<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Peter Constable &lt;<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>

</div>&gt; Phillips, Addison<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:55 AM<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
&gt; I would therefore suggest:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;t&gt;The &#39;zxx&#39; (Non-Linguistic, Not Applicable) primary language subtag<br>
&gt; identifies content for which a language classification is inappropriate<br>
&gt; or does not apply. This subtag SHOULD NOT be used unless a language tag<br>
&gt; is required, since the content to which it applies typically is not<br>
&gt; suitable for identification with a language tag. It also SHOULD NOT be<br>
&gt; combined with other subtags, since other subtags have no real meaning<br>
&gt; in a non-lingusitic context.<br>
<br>
</div>I&#39;m not sure I see the need for that last sentence, and wonder if it might be overly restricting. BCP47 provides a tagging scheme that can be usefully applied to a wider range of applications than those which any of us may have had in mind, and if it&#39;s useful in a given application context to create tags along the lines of &quot;zxx-Hebr&quot; then it might be unhelpful for us to discourage that. What would we be trying to protect ourselves from?<br>

<font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Peter<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax
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Hi Karen

With ISO FDIS 639-6 going out for a 2 month vote in the next day or so, you
could use: zh-TW-x-cmns :-)  cmns is a pretty stable code for Mandarin
Chinese Spoken within ISO FDIS 639-6 but be aware that nothing is set in
stone until the standard is published.

Best regards

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> Sent: 02 May 2008 05:40
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax
>
> I apologize for not expressing myself well in the previous e-mail.
> Disregard first comment about zh-TW. I will try to clarify in
> the morning.
>
> Karen
>
>
> -----ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote: -----
>
> To: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
> From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.k
> Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> Date: 05/01/2008 03:30PM
> cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax
>
>
> Going through this old e-mail sent to
> another list, I realize an unmentioned Sony Pictures scenario
> where I don't have a great answer given the new rules. So
> here's a simple question that the draft should answer. What's
> the best tag to use for *spoken* Taiwanese Mandarin?
>
>
>
> I can't use zh-TW. That's a written
> form -- Traditional Mandarin.
>
> I can't use zh-Hans-TW or zh-Hant-TW
> -- Those will always be "Taiwan Chinese in
> simplified/traditional script". Not what I want.
>
> cmn-TW needs a Very Good Reason, which
> it seems to have here, but the cmn tag is still not well
> recognized, especially without the "zh". This same user reads
> in "zh" which seems to create an unnecessary complexity.
>
> Am I missing something? Do we need to
> register a variant of Mandarin for Taiwanese Mandarin? It
> seems like the region code semantics aren't right in the
> context of historical tags. I hate to say it, but extlang
> still seems so much cleaner for my audio/text language
> breakdown. Do we like that Chinese Internet users will have
> different tags for written and spoken forms of their
> language? Maybe that's the reality of the situation, but it
> will create logic complexities that developers might not
> welcome. Something here still makes me queasy.
>
>
> If the problem is simply that I haven't
> had enough coffee today, I apologize in advance for raising
> this ugly issue again. A discussion of the forms of Norwegian
> on another list made me think about this again. I've been
> trying to look the other way....
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Karen Broome
>
>
> www-international-request@w3.org wrote on 01/21/2008
> 02:12:44 PM:
>
>
> >
>
> > Hi Richard,
>
> >
>
> > Some notes follow.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > It would be good to have the bulk of the text below available
> in
>
> > some publicly accessible form so that we can point to it.
>
> >
>
> > Well, of course, my email now is accessible :-). However, I intend
> to
>
> > write a new bit of guidance once things settle down a bit (a la the
> ML
>
> > article you adapted previously) since this bears documenting widely,
>
> > loudly, early and often [lest there be confusion]
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> > > Also, I'm wondering what are the implications wrt use of zh and
>
> > the cmn, yue, etc subtags.  Are we expecting zh to be used only
> for
>
> > things like zh-Hans and zh-Hant?  Can we still use it in a vague
> way
>
> > to mean 'some kind of chinese'?  Will the zh-cmn etc tags be
> deprecated? etc.
>
> >
>
> > There is guidance in draft-4646bis on this topic (at [1]). The
> > relevant
>
> > paragraphs currently read:
>
> >
>
> > ---
>
> > In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag.
>
> > However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to
>
> > denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place
> of
>
> > the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless it is
> > necessary
>
> > to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from
> that enclosed
>
> > dominant language variety.
>
> >
>
> > In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
>
> > consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most
>
> > languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because
>
> > historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not
>
> > available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically
> used
>
> > either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. This
> means
>
> > that macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when
> searching
>
> > for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation. For
>
> > example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of
> 'zh' could
> be
>
> > used in the Lookup algorithm to fallback from a request for
>
> > "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without losing the
> script and region
>
> > information (even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN"
> in their
>
> > request).
>
> > ---
>
> >
>
> > Basically, the idea is:
>
> >
>
> > - Use 'zh' when you mean "Chinese" undifferentiated by a
> regional
>
> > language. Since Mandarin Chinese is (by most measures) the "dominant
>
> > encompassed language" [because most written Chinese documents
> use a
>
> > standardized form which is essentially Mandarin Chinese], this means
>
> > that 'zh' should be used in preference to 'cmn' (or other subtags)
> for
>
> > most Chinese content. This is especially true for most Web document
>
> > formats (such as HTML, XML+*, and so on). Practically speaking, this
>
> > means that you won't need to retag most content.
>
> >
>
> > - Use 'yue' (and related tags, such as 'yue-Hant' or 'yue-HK') when
> you
>
> > need to indicate "Cantonese (Yue) Chinese" as distinct from
> Chinese.
>
> > Typically this will be audio (or video) content, since most written
>
> > documents actually use a Mandarin form. Of course, written Cantonese
>
> > (while relatively rare) also exists and should be tagged with the
> 'yue'
>
> > subtag. Note that, with the exception of 'cmn', this applies to all
> of
>
> > the other encompassed language subtags.
>
> >
>
> > - Use 'cmn' when you need to indicate "Mandarin Chinese"
> as distinct
>
> > from Chinese in general. This case is rare and should be avoided
>
> > whenever possible. A better way to write that would be: "Do NOT
> use
>
> > 'cmn' unless you have a Very Good Reason."
>
> >
>
> > - Replace existing grandfathered tags such as 'zh-yue' with their
> subtag
>
> > equivalent (i.e. 'yue').
>
> >
>
> > - If you speak a Chinese language other than Mandarin, add that
> > language
>
> > into your "language priority list" (e.g. HTTP Accept-Language
> in your
>
> > browser) *before* you include the 'zh-*' range, and include both.
> For
>
> > example, if you are a Cantonese speaker from Hong Kong, you might
> use a
>
> > list like:
>
> >
>
> >    Accept-Language: yue-Hant-HK;q=1.0,zh-Hant-HK;q=0.8
>
> >
>
> > It is important to note that, despite the foregoing, the subtag 'zh'
>
> > does NOT mean strictly Mandarin. It just happens to be the case that
>
> > most 'zh' content turns out to be Mandarin.
>
> >
>
> > Hope that helps. I look forward to writing some guidelines on this
> topic
>
> > soon.
>
> >
>
> > Best,
>
> >
>
> > Addison
>
> >
>
> > [1]
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.html#choice
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> > > Cheers,
>
> > > RI
>
> > >
>
> > > ============
>
> > > Richard Ishida
>
> > > Internationalization Lead
>
> > > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
> > >
>
> > >
> http://www.w3.org/International/
>
> > >
> http://rishida.net/blog/
>
> > >
> http://rishida.net/
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
>
> > >> From: member-i18n-core-request@w3.org [mailto:member-i18n-core-
>
> > >> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Addison Phillips
>
> > >> Sent: 17 January 2008 05:19
>
> > >> To: I18N
>
> > >> Cc: member-i18n-core@w3.org
>
> > >> Subject: Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >> In this week's Internationalization Core WG teleconference,
> I drew an
>
> > >> action item [1] to provide more information about a proposed
> change to
>
> > >> the language tag ABNF (the grammar or formal syntax) in the
> proposed
>
> > >> successor to RFC 4646. That's because the W3C created several
> documents
>
> > >> [2] and [3] at about the time RFC 4646 came into being describing
>
> > >> language tags. Parts of these documents speculate about a
> potential
>
> > >> future feature of language tags that is now being removed
> or will not be
>
> > >> used. The I18N Core WG is now preparing to revise this document
> to keep
>
> > >> it current, and, as co-editor of the proposed replacement,
> I've been
>
> > >> following the details closely.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> As many of you know, RFC 4646 was created as a successor
> to RFC 3066 as
>
> > >> the document defining "BCP 47", the language tagging
> standard for
>
> > >> Internet (and other) technologies. You may know "BCP
> 47" as "xml:lang"
>
> > >> or as the values in the HTTP Accept-Language header, for
> example.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> RFC 4646 provided a more complex syntax that defined several
> new
>
> > >> "flavors" of subtag in addition to the language
> and region subtags that
>
> > >> had been formally defined previously. Most of these new types
> were fully
>
> > >> defined in 4646. However, one type of subtag was reserved
> for future
>
> > >> use: the "extended language" subtags, or, colloquially,
> "extlangs".
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Extended language subtags were intended to accommodate a
> feature of ISO
>
> > >> 639-3, whereby some languages were considered to be encompassed
> by
>
> > >> existing languages, which were called "macro-languages".
> For example,
>
> > >> Mandarin Chinese and Cantonese are both distinct languages
> that have
>
> > >> their own codes in ISO 639-3 (these are 'cmn' and 'yue'
> respectively).
>
> > >> Both of these languages (with several others) are encompassed
> by the
>
> > >> Macrolanguage called "Chinese", which is represented
> by the code 'zh' in
>
> > >> language tags.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> At the time 4646 was created, the IETF working group theorized
> that
>
> > >> language tags for these languages would use both the macro-
> and
>
> > >> encompassed language codes together. For example, a Cantonese
> (yue)
>
> > >> document written in the Traditional script (Hant) for Hong
> Kong (HK)
>
> > >> would use a tag like "zh-yue-Hant-HK".
>
> > >>
>
> > >> However, after a great deal of debate and consideration,
> it was decided
>
> > >> that this extlang feature would NOT be used. The encompassed
> and
>
> > >> macrolanguage codes would both appear as potential primary
> language
>
> > >> subtags and the extended language subtag would not be used.
> Thus, for
>
> > >> example, the document described above would use the tag
> "yue-Hant-HK".
>
> > >>
>
> > >> It should be noted that the IETF working group for language
> tags has
>
> > >> also decided to remove the extlang production from the language
> tag
>
> > >> syntax. This production was explicitly reserved for future
> use and no
>
> > >> tags have ever been valid that used it. A few tags were
> registered
>
> > >> during the RFC 3066 era that appear to use these subtags,
> but these were
>
> > >> separately handled by the "grandfathered" productions
> in the grammar.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Removing extlang altogether will simplify writing language
> tag
>
> > >> processors and relex some of the minimum length requirements
> previously
>
> > >> imposed.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Finally, this move was not taken without considerable debate
> and
>
> > >> discussion. Some of the macrolanguages are obscure, but Chinese
> and
>
> > >> Arabic languages are among those affected. Those interested
> in the
>
> > >> macrolanguage mapping list can refer to the ISO639-3RA's
> page showing
>
> > >> the current mappings [4].
>
> > >>
>
> > >> The proposed successor is now nearing completion. A link
> to the current
>
> > >> draft of the document can be found on my page [5], along
> with links to
>
> > >> the IETF LTRU WG responsible for this document, the mail
> archive, and so
>
> > >> forth.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Best Regards,
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Addison
>
> > >>
>
> > >> [1]
> http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-core-minutes.html#action04
>
> > >> [2]
> http://www.w3.org/International/articles/bcp47/
>
> > >> [3]
> http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/#iana
>
> > >> [4]
> http://www.sil.org/iso639%2D3/macrolanguages.asp
>
> > >> [5]
> http://www.inter-locale.com
>
> > >>
>
> > >> --
>
> > >> Addison Phillips
>
> > >> Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
>
> > >> Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Internationalization is an architecture.
>
> > >> It is not a feature.
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > Addison Phillips
>
> > Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
>
> > Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG
>
> >
>
> > Internationalization is an architecture.
>
> > It is not a feature.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>




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From: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
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Subject: [Ltru] Extlang issues
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Ok, I come stumbling in here, in the last second... but I wondered if =

all issues regarding extended languages really have been considered - =

now that publcation is near.

I want to compare the Norwegian situation, which I know well, with the =

Chinese, that I know less well. Because, it seems to me that the =

proposed changes will create a situation for Chinese that resembles the =

situation we allready have for Norwegian today - which is less than =

optimal. (For Chinese, it looks as if it can become even far less than =

optimal than currently for Norwegian.)

I have shown [1] that authors, users, web servers do not understand the =

langauge subtags for Norwegian. Norwegian ('no') is the macrolangauge =

(as per ISO 639-3) for Nynorsk ('nn') and Bokm=E5l ('nb'). But

   1. there is a tendency to use 'no' as a tag for the hegemony language
      (Bokm=E5l). Last version of Apache, Apache 2.2.8 is set up like this
      exacalty this way - with .no for 'no' and .nn for 'nn'. This
      steals playground from the minority language. (But also the
      opposite can happen: a friend just discovered that on Mac OS X,
      Safari only asks for 'nb-NO' ...);
   2. users and browsers tend to have 'no' as a defacto first preference
      (if not the only preference), which can cause Nynorsk users to
      loose content tagged as 'nn';
   3. and authors tend to think that the tags should work in a
      hierarchical way, meaning that they find 'no-nn' and 'no-nb' more
      natural than 'nn-NO' and 'nb-NO'. The official goverment web site
      of Norway currently has this error, except that instead of nn they
      write ny: 'no-NY', and they - as well - use 'no' for Bokm=E5l. See
      http://www.regjeringa.no ;
   4. provided 'no-nb' and 'no-nn' could be used, they would be more
      backwards compatible than 'nn' and 'nb', since (in Apache), if the
      browser asks for 'no-nn', then a file tagged 'no' will be served
      if 'no-nn' can't be found. (For this reason, the grandfathered
      'no-nyn' and 'no-bok' are more compatible with a browser asking
      for 'no' than are the preferred 'nb' and 'nn'.)

Now, for Chinese, you create a situation were for instance 'yue' =

should/can be used for written Cantonese. So, let's imagine I get a web =

browser which is set up to ask for 'yue', only. Then, suddenly, I will =

loose any content tagged with 'zh'. This is unfortunate, as I think all =

those users want written Mandarin if they can get written Cantonese.

However, had the code for written Cantonese been zh-yue, then, setting =

the browser to ask for zh-yue would, in case a Cantonese resource was =

lacking, give you Mandarine (zh, or zh-something) instead, if available, =

since Apache sees zh as a partial match for zh-yue.

The only solution I see to this problem, both for Norwegian and for =

Chinese, is to make sure that files are served with several alternative =

language tags.  Thus, for Norwegian, I will serve a Bokm=E5l file both =

with a 'no' tag and with a 'nb' tag, so that both requests for 'no' as =

well as for 'nb' will yield the same Bokm=E5l file.

Likewise, for a file tagged as 'yue', I could make sure that it was also =

tagged as 'zh'. However, then I would, at the same time, also have to be =

certain that the written Mandarin file could use 'zh-Hans' or 'zh-Hant', =

or else they would get Cantonese instead of Mandarin. Are Chinese =

users/browser applications for Chinese good at specifying whether they =

want simplified or traditional Mandarin, so that 'zh' would work fine as =

'back-up tag' for Cantonese? (This is also something that resembles the =

Norwegian situation: Setting up 'nb' for Bokm=E5l, while using the general =

'no' for Nynorsk is also something I have considered. If I could be =

certain that all Bokm=E5l users had 'nb' first on their list, then this =

would work fine. Unfortunatly, I can't be sure about that.)

In the end, tagging with several tags might be more complicated for =

Chinese than for Norwegian. And, regardless, was it the intention, that =

files should be tagged with several tags?

Here is another scenario: I serve 'file.nn.html' and 'file.nb.html' in =

parallell. But inside those files I have embedded an audio file, with =

the tag 'no' (e.g. audio.no.mp3, referenced in the HTML source as just =

'audio.mp3'), because it is aimed for use in both languages. (Typically, =

for example an audio file containing a interview would be considered =

suitable both in a Nynorsk file as well as in a Bokm=E5l file, unless the =

"interview" is actually a theatrical play in one of our two literature =

languages - Bokm=E5l/Nynorsk.) Now, if browsers were asking for 'nb' or =

'nn' only, respectively, then they might not get the 'no' tagged audio file.

However, if tags for Nynorsk and Bokm=E5l were 'no-nno' and 'no-nob' =

respectively (or 'no-nn' and 'no-nb'), so that the Bokm=E5l file was =

tagged 'no-nob' and the Nynorsk file 'no-nno' and the audio file was =

tagged 'no', then both browsers asking for Nynorsk as well as browsers =

asking Bokm=E5l would get that audio file, since 'no' was a partial match =

for. Of course, in a Norwegian only context, this would not be a problem =

- I did no need to tag the file with any language tag at all, then. But =

else, on a multilingual web site I would, again, have to tag the file as =

both 'nn', 'nb' and perhaps even 'no', in order to be certain that all  =

Norwegian users would get the audio file.

[1] http://www.w3.org/mid/481164C2.2050608@malform.no

Regards,
Leif Halvard Silli,
Oslo
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Correction:

Leif Halvard Silli 2008-05-02 15.38:
> [...] This is unfortunate, as I think all those users want written Mandarin if they can get written Cantonese. [...]
>   

The above should be  '... if they can _NOT_ get written Cantonese'.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've been out for a few weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The draft seems contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my interpretation of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:

* zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
* yue should be used if you want Cantonese.
* zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just assume this is Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."

I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice) http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice:

  "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed dominant language variety."

So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn" "unless it is necessary"

Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:

  "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged "zh-cmn". "

So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin in some cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though, I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably I shouldn't choose a grandfathered tag.

Later we have:

  "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without losing the script and region information (even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "

This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)

So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what is expected.  As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I missed it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to assume:

* zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those
* yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during lookup.

Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would guess that by the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:
* Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that
* only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional fallback lookup to zh if desired.

If that is the case, then the zh-cmn-Hant / zh-cmn example should be corrected to zh-Hant and zh.  Also cmn should then be listed as grandfathered if zh always means Mandarin and is preferred.  If my guess isn't correct, then whatever appropriate additional clarifications should be made.

- Shawn

Shawn Steele

Senior Software Design Engineer
Windows International / Microsoft .Net
Microsoft

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Shawn Steele scripsit:

> I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've been out for a few
> weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The draft seems
> contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my interpretation
> of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:

I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean "4646bis", and are
asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the existing RFC.

> * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
> * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.

Yes.

> * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just assume this is
> Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."

Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material will be
"cmn".  "zh-cmn" becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to "cmn".

> I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice:
> 
>   "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language
>   tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically
>   used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used
>   in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless
>   it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole
>   from that enclosed dominant language variety."
> 
> So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn" "unless
> it is necessary"

Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean "must be used for".
There are occasional reasons not to use it.

> Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:
> 
>   "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human
>   speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language
>   is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a
>   movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional
>   script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged
>   "zh-cmn". "

Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.

Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other places where
zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?

> So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin in some
> cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,
> I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably I shouldn't
> choose a grandfathered tag.

Right.

> Later we have:
> 
>   "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
>   consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most
>   languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because
>   historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not
>   available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically
>   used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with
>   'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully
>   applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in
>   language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has
>   a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to
>   fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without
>   losing the script and region information (even though the user did
>   not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "
> 
> This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)

Not really.  The core idea is that the "zh" tag is vague/inclusive and can
be used for any variety of Chinese.  However, most spoken Chinese is in fact
Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin, so there is
a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin.  In order to benefit
people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is introduced to mean "specifically
Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties".

> So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what is expected.
> As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I missed
> it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to assume:
> 
> * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those
> * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during lookup.

Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.
Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.

> Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would guess that by
> the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:
> * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that

Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling reason to use
"cmn".

> * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional fallback lookup to zh if desired.

Yes.

-- 
Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
in any language.  --Allen Brown                 cowan@ccil.org
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Extlang issues
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Leif Halvard Silli" <lhs@malform.no>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 7:38 AM
> Subject: [Ltru] Extlang issues
...
> The only solution I see to this problem, both for Norwegian and for
> Chinese, is to make sure that files are served with several alternative
> language tags.  Thus, for Norwegian, I will serve a Bokm=E5l file both
> with a 'no' tag and with a 'nb' tag, so that both requests for 'no' as
> well as for 'nb' will yield the same Bokm=E5l file.
...

I agree the situation is a mess, and I really dislike "zh" being used to
*mean* Mandarin, rather than meaning "something Chinese, which
is consequently overwhelmingly likely to be Mandarin".

However, to address the cases you cite, wouldn't it be simpler and
more robust (and also more likely to give these users exactly what
they want) for them to simply put "no" / "zh" as their second choice
in their lists of language preferences?

Truncation fallback is at best a helpful heuristic, and can fail even for
seemingly easy cases.  My sense of the discussion on this list has
been that though there may be macrolanguage cases where truncation
fallback happens work nicely, that this is not generally the case,
and that the failure cases are too numerous to justify organizing the
specification around the few cases where it can be made to "do the
right thing".

I think the reason it's so ugly is that what the appropriate fallback
language(s) will be for a particular language is not a matter of genetic
relationships between them, but rather has to do with the history and
politics of the speaker communities of the languages, and the extent
to which one can legitimately assume that members of a particular
community will have some competance in the fallback language.

Randy


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Extlang issues
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> However, to address the cases you cite, wouldn't it be simpler and
> more robust (and also more likely to give these users exactly what
> they want) for them to simply put "no" / "zh" as their second choice
> in their lists of language preferences?

Apparently, some browsers insist on copying your language preference
from a system-wide locale setting, and then make it annoying (or perhaps
impossible) to specify a more intelligent Accept-Language: header.

Furthermore, servers tend to have a simplistic model of tags in which
rules like "if nn is lacking, fall back to no" cannot be specified,
and a simplistic model of content negotiation where each resource is
associated with at most one language tag.

These are IMHO the real issues here, and unfortunately they are out of
scope for us.

-- 
I marvel at the creature: so secret and         John Cowan
so sly as he is, to come sporting in the pool   cowan@ccil.org
before our very window.  Does he think that     http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Men sleep without watch all night?
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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It seems like we're suggesting the following:

1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is "zh".
2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" unless of course you feel 
like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea because that's how it's 
been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by the way, you 
can also use "zh-cmn" or "zh-guoyu."

I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if extlang is 
removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be "cmn." 
If it's not "cmn," you've changed the semantic of the "zh" tag to 
disinclude "yue."  With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue" and the 
semantics of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an overwhelming 
number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandarin does not sway me. I have 
Cantonese subtitles. 

There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my 
Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is something in 
the draft that is ambiguous. 

In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls Chinese are 
mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are languages. This 
seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on the best 
tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is something 
wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.

Regards,

Karen Broome



ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:

> Shawn Steele scripsit:
> 
> > I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've been out for a few
> > weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The draft seems
> > contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my interpretation
> > of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:
> 
> I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean "4646bis", and 
are
> asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the existing 
RFC.
> 
> > * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
> > * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just assume this is
> > Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."
> 
> Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material will be
> "cmn".  "zh-cmn" becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to "cmn".
> 
> > I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)
> > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice:
> > 
> >   "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language
> >   tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically
> >   used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used
> >   in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless
> >   it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole
> >   from that enclosed dominant language variety."
> > 
> > So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn" "unless
> > it is necessary"
> 
> Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean "must be used 
for".
> There are occasional reasons not to use it.
> 
> > Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:
> > 
> >   "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of 
human
> >   speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language
> >   is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a
> >   movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin, 
Traditional
> >   script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged
> >   "zh-cmn". "
> 
> Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.
> 
> Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other places where
> zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?
> 
> > So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin in some
> > cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,
> > I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably I shouldn't
> > choose a grandfathered tag.
> 
> Right.
> 
> > Later we have:
> > 
> >   "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
> >   consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most
> >   languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because
> >   historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not
> >   available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically
> >   used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with
> >   'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully
> >   applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in
> >   language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has
> >   a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to
> >   fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without
> >   losing the script and region information (even though the user did
> >   not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "
> > 
> > This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)
> 
> Not really.  The core idea is that the "zh" tag is vague/inclusive and 
can
> be used for any variety of Chinese.  However, most spoken Chinese is in 
fact
> Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin, so there 
is
> a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin.  In order to 
benefit
> people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is introduced to mean 
"specifically
> Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties".
> 
> > So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what is 
expected.
> > As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I missed
> > it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to assume:
> > 
> > * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those
> > * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during 
lookup.
> 
> Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.
> Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.
> 
> > Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would guess that by
> > the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:
> > * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that
> 
> Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling reason to use
> "cmn".
> 
> > * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional 
> fallback lookup to zh if desired.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> -- 
> Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
> in any language.  --Allen Brown                 cowan@ccil.org
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
> To: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> It seems like we're suggesting the following:
> 
> 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is "zh".
> 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" unless of course you feel 
> like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea because that's how it's 
> been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by the way, you 
> can also use "zh-cmn" or "zh-guoyu."
> 
> I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if extlang is 
> removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be "cmn." 
> If it's not "cmn," you've changed the semantic of the "zh" tag to 
> disinclude "yue."  With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue" and the 
> semantics of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an overwhelming 
> number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandarin does not sway me. I have 
> Cantonese subtitles. 

I completely agree.
 
> There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my 
> Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is something in 
> the draft that is ambiguous. 

The precision (hopefully we tag everything "accurately" :-) of tagging
needed depends on the application.  You're probably in the best position
to make that call.

> In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls Chinese are 
> mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are languages. This 
> seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on the best 
> tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is something 
> wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.

I think there's a temptation to allow the fallback heuristic to be the tail that
wags the dog.  Instead of "advising" anyone to use "zh" for Mandarin,
perhaps it would be better to give it as an example of a case where, owing
to the sociolinguistic situation in which Mandarin fins itself, one might,
for some (but not all!) significant applications, find it advantageous
to tag somewhat imprecisely (but still accurately).

Randy

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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean "4646bis", and are
> asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the existing RFC.

Duh, yes :)

> > So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn" "unless
> > it is necessary"

> Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean "must be used for".
> There are occasional reasons not to use it.

> Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.

That solves 90% of my confusion :)  Thanks.

> Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling reason to use
> "cmn".

Can someone please explain that if apps are mostly assuming that zh is usually Mandarin, when would it be compelling to use cmn?

Karen is also concerned because this effectively means that zh disincludes yue, which does seem like a valid conceptual concern.

If the desire is for Mandarin to be distinct from zh, then it seems to me that it should always be "cmn", unless someone really didn't know if it was Mandarin or another sublang.

If the desire is to say "zh is already Mandarin so we don't want to touch it", then I think that cmn should NOT be an option and zh should always be used.  I recognize that not all zh data may currently be Mandarin, so this is perhaps not quite accurate, which would argue that future data should maybe be tagged as "Mandarin".

Should the current message of "use zh unless its compelling to use cmn" is the final result, then as a content provider I think I'd always use cmn (I wouldn't want it to be confused with the perhaps-ambiguous presumed cmn that is zh).  For lookup I'd have to assume that cmn == zh or miss all the existing content.  When setting up http-accept-lang in a browser I'd have to pick both cmn & zh.  The net effect would be that cmn will be an alias for zh, and that we'll all have to have extra code just to make sure they're always treated similarly.

For that to not happen I'm going to need a MUCH better definition of "compelling" and when cmn should be used.

For Arabic I don't think the problem has nearly the same scale and I don't think content taggers or developers would have the same problem.

Sorry, but I'll be out for the weekend starting about now.

- Shawn
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I see it a bit differently:

   - cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg
   cmn-HK)
   - yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg
   yue-HK)
   - zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing Mandarin,
   Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag either Mandarin
   Chinese content or Cantonese content with 'zh'. (eg zh-HK).
   - However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, 'zh' has
   long been used to mean Mandarin only. Because of this:
   - In practice, 'zh' and 'cmn' are best treated as synonyms
      - Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is preferred
      over 'cmn'.
      - Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be
      tagged with 'zh'
   - Some other macrolanguages behave the same way, while other
   macrolanguages do not have these predominance/compatibility issues, and
   should not be treated as synonyms with one of their encompassed languages.

Mark

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:

> It seems like we're suggesting the following:
>
> 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is "zh".
> 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" unless of course you feel
> like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea because that's how it's
> been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by the way, you
> can also use "zh-cmn" or "zh-guoyu."
>
> I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if extlang is
> removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be "cmn."
> If it's not "cmn," you've changed the semantic of the "zh" tag to
> disinclude "yue."  With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue" and the
> semantics of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an overwhelming
> number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandarin does not sway me. I have
> Cantonese subtitles.
>
> There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my
> Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is something in
> the draft that is ambiguous.
>
> In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls Chinese are
> mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are languages. This
> seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on the best
> tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is something
> wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>
>
>
> ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:
>
> > Shawn Steele scripsit:
> >
> > > I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've been out for a few
> > > weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The draft seems
> > > contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my interpretation
> > > of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:
> >
> > I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean "4646bis", and
> are
> > asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the existing
> RFC.
> >
> > > * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
> > > * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > > * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just assume this is
> > > Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."
> >
> > Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material will be
> > "cmn".  "zh-cmn" becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to "cmn".
> >
> > > I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)
> > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice:
> > >
> > >   "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language
> > >   tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically
> > >   used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used
> > >   in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless
> > >   it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole
> > >   from that enclosed dominant language variety."
> > >
> > > So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn" "unless
> > > it is necessary"
> >
> > Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean "must be used
> for".
> > There are occasional reasons not to use it.
> >
> > > Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:
> > >
> > >   "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of
> human
> > >   speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language
> > >   is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a
> > >   movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin,
> Traditional
> > >   script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged
> > >   "zh-cmn". "
> >
> > Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.
> >
> > Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other places where
> > zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?
> >
> > > So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin in some
> > > cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,
> > > I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably I shouldn't
> > > choose a grandfathered tag.
> >
> > Right.
> >
> > > Later we have:
> > >
> > >   "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
> > >   consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most
> > >   languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because
> > >   historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not
> > >   available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically
> > >   used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with
> > >   'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully
> > >   applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in
> > >   language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has
> > >   a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to
> > >   fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without
> > >   losing the script and region information (even though the user did
> > >   not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "
> > >
> > > This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)
> >
> > Not really.  The core idea is that the "zh" tag is vague/inclusive and
> can
> > be used for any variety of Chinese.  However, most spoken Chinese is in
> fact
> > Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin, so there
> is
> > a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin.  In order to
> benefit
> > people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is introduced to mean
> "specifically
> > Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties".
> >
> > > So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what is
> expected.
> > > As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I missed
> > > it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to assume:
> > >
> > > * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those
> > > * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during
> lookup.
> >
> > Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.
> > Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.
> >
> > > Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would guess that by
> > > the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:
> > > * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that
> >
> > Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling reason to use
> > "cmn".
> >
> > > * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional
> > fallback lookup to zh if desired.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > --
> > Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
> > in any language.  --Allen Brown                 cowan@ccil.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I see it a bit differently:<br><ul><li>cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg cmn-HK)<br>
</li><li>yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg yue-HK)<br>
</li><li>zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing Mandarin, Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag either Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with &#39;zh&#39;. (eg zh-HK).</li>
<li>However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, &#39;zh&#39; has long been used to mean Mandarin only. Because of this:<br></li><ul><li>In practice, &#39;zh&#39; and &#39;cmn&#39; are best treated as synonyms</li>
<li>Where backwards compatibility is important, &#39;zh&#39; is preferred over &#39;cmn&#39;.</li><li>Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be tagged with &#39;zh&#39;</li></ul><li>Some other macrolanguages behave the same way, while other macrolanguages do not have these predominance/compatibility issues, and should not be treated as synonyms with one of their encompassed languages.<br>
</li></ul>
Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM,  &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
It seems like we&#39;re suggesting the following:<br>
<br>
1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is &quot;zh&quot;.<br>
2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is &quot;cmn&quot; unless of course you feel<br>
like using &quot;zh&quot; (which, psst, might be a good idea because that&#39;s how it&#39;s<br>
been used even if that isn&#39;t exactly what it means) and by the way, you<br>
can also use &quot;zh-cmn&quot; or &quot;zh-guoyu.&quot;<br>
<br>
I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if extlang is<br>
removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be &quot;cmn.&quot;<br>
If it&#39;s not &quot;cmn,&quot; you&#39;ve changed the semantic of the &quot;zh&quot; tag to<br>
disinclude &quot;yue.&quot; &nbsp;With extlang, you have &quot;zh-cmn&quot; and &quot;zh-yue&quot; and the<br>
semantics of &quot;zh&quot; remain consistent. The argument that an overwhelming<br>
number of documents tagged with &quot;zh&quot; are Mandarin does not sway me. I have<br>
Cantonese subtitles.<br>
<br>
There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my<br>
Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is something in<br>
the draft that is ambiguous.<br>
<br>
In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls Chinese are<br>
mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are languages. This<br>
seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on the best<br>
tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is something<br>
wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Karen Broome<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
&gt; Shawn Steele scripsit:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I&#39;m confused by the text surrounding Chinese. &nbsp;I&#39;ve been out for a few<br>
&gt; &gt; weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion. &nbsp;The draft seems<br>
&gt; &gt; contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my interpretation<br>
&gt; &gt; of what I&#39;m reading now for Chinese is:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I assume that when you say &quot;3066bis&quot; you actually mean &quot;4646bis&quot;, and<br>
are<br>
&gt; asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the existing<br>
RFC.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.<br>
&gt; &gt; * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say &quot;don&#39;t just assume this is<br>
&gt; &gt; Mandarin, it really is Mandarin.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material will be<br>
&gt; &quot;cmn&quot;. &nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn&quot; becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to &quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice" target="_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice</a>:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; from that enclosed dominant language variety.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; So this sounds like I&#39;m supposed to use &quot;zh&quot; instead of &quot;cmn&quot; &quot;unless<br>
&gt; &gt; it is necessary&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yes, provided that &quot;pretty much assumed&quot; does not mean &quot;must be used<br>
for&quot;.<br>
&gt; There are occasional reasons not to use it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of<br>
human<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; movie might use the tag &quot;zh-cmn-Hant&quot; (Chinese, Mandarin,<br>
Traditional<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;zh-cmn&quot;. &quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Oops, that should be fixed to remove the &quot;zh-&quot; part.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other places where<br>
&gt; zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; So apparently it is &quot;necessary&quot; to use a tag for Mandarin in some<br>
&gt; &gt; cases. &nbsp;This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,<br>
&gt; &gt; I don&#39;t get that. &nbsp;This section is &quot;choice&quot;, presumably I shouldn&#39;t<br>
&gt; &gt; choose a grandfathered tag.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Right.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Later we have:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; languages having &#39;zh&#39; (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; available), languages such as &#39;yue&#39; (Cantonese) have historically<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; used either &#39;zh&#39; or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &#39;zh&#39;. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; language negotiation. For example, the information that &#39;yue&#39; has<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; a macrolangauge of &#39;zh&#39; could be used in the Lookup algorithm to<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; fallback from a request for &quot;yue-Hans-CN&quot; to &quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot; without<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; losing the script and region information (even though the user did<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; not specify &quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot; in their request). &quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Not really. &nbsp;The core idea is that the &quot;zh&quot; tag is vague/inclusive and<br>
can<br>
&gt; be used for any variety of Chinese. &nbsp;However, most spoken Chinese is in<br>
fact<br>
&gt; Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin, so there<br>
is<br>
&gt; a tendency to assume that &quot;zh&quot; simply means Mandarin. &nbsp;In order to<br>
benefit<br>
&gt; people who must distinguish, the tag &quot;cmn&quot; is introduced to mean<br>
&quot;specifically<br>
&gt; Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; So from the text of the draft I&#39;m not entirely certain what is<br>
expected.<br>
&gt; &gt; As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I missed<br>
&gt; &gt; it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to assume:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those<br>
&gt; &gt; * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during<br>
lookup.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.<br>
&gt; Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Can someone clarify what the expectation is? &nbsp;I would guess that by<br>
&gt; &gt; the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:<br>
&gt; &gt; * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Not so. &nbsp;&quot;zh&quot; should be used unless there is a compelling reason to use<br>
&gt; &quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional<br>
&gt; fallback lookup to zh if desired.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN &nbsp; &nbsp;John Cowan<br>
&gt; in any language. &nbsp;--Allen Brown &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a><br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Comments.

mark.edward.davis@gmail.com wrote on 05/02/2008 01:27:15 PM:

> I see it a bit differently:
> cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg cmn-HK)
> yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg yue-HK)
> zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing Mandarin,
> Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag either 
> Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with 'zh'. (eg zh-HK).

So far, so good.

> However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, 'zh' has 
> long been used to mean Mandarin only. 

Disagree. It was simply the most specific tag one could use for the 
Mandarin at the time. That doesn't mean the tag ever meant "Mandarin" to 
anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as this tag 
has been used more often than zh-Hant. 

> In practice, 'zh' and 'cmn' are best treated as synonyms

OK, so you're changing the semantics of the tag in practice. I don't think 
there can be any other interpretation of that statement. I think this 
subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate in this 
working group. Where else do we give users a choice as far as which 
language subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they can't use "eng" 
but that they have a choice of "zh" or "cmn" when it comes to Mandarin? 


> Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is preferred over 
'cmn'.
> Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be tagged with 
'zh'

Your average developer just gets a language requirement and wants to match 
it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their need for 
backwards compatibility and multiple language modes as part of this task. 
This wasn't something that needed to be considered in the past.  Forcing 
the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to use is not 
likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and could even 
prevent the adoption and utility of this work.

Regards,

Karen Broome



> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:
> It seems like we're suggesting the following:
> 
> 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is "zh".
> 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" unless of course you 
feel
> like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea because that's how 
it's
> been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by the way, you
> can also use "zh-cmn" or "zh-guoyu."
> 
> I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if extlang is
> removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be 
"cmn."
> If it's not "cmn," you've changed the semantic of the "zh" tag to
> disinclude "yue."  With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue" and the
> semantics of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an overwhelming
> number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandarin does not sway me. I 
have
> Cantonese subtitles.
> 
> There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my
> Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is something in
> the draft that is ambiguous.
> 
> In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls Chinese 
are
> mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are languages. 
This
> seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on the 
best
> tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is 
something
> wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Karen Broome
> 
> 
> 
> ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:
> 
> > Shawn Steele scripsit:
> >
> > > I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've been out for a 
few
> > > weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The draft seems
> > > contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my 
interpretation
> > > of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:
> >
> > I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean "4646bis", and
> are
> > asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the existing
> RFC.
> >
> > > * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
> > > * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > > * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just assume this 
is
> > > Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."
> >
> > Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material will be
> > "cmn".  "zh-cmn" becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to "cmn".
> >
> > > I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)
> > > 
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice:
> > >
> > >   "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language
> > >   tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically
> > >   used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used
> > >   in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language 
unless
> > >   it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a 
whole
> > >   from that enclosed dominant language variety."
> > >
> > > So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn" 
"unless
> > > it is necessary"
> >
> > Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean "must be used
> for".
> > There are occasional reasons not to use it.
> >
> > > Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:
> > >
> > >   "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of
> human
> > >   speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the 
language
> > >   is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a
> > >   movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin,
> Traditional
> > >   script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged
> > >   "zh-cmn". "
> >
> > Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.
> >
> > Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other places where
> > zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?
> >
> > > So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin in some
> > > cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,
> > > I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably I shouldn't
> > > choose a grandfathered tag.
> >
> > Right.
> >
> > > Later we have:
> > >
> > >   "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
> > >   consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most
> > >   languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because
> > >   historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were 
not
> > >   available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically
> > >   used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with
> > >   'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully
> > >   applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in
> > >   language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has
> > >   a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to
> > >   fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without
> > >   losing the script and region information (even though the user did
> > >   not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "
> > >
> > > This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)
> >
> > Not really.  The core idea is that the "zh" tag is vague/inclusive and
> can
> > be used for any variety of Chinese.  However, most spoken Chinese is 
in
> fact
> > Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin, so there
> is
> > a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin.  In order to
> benefit
> > people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is introduced to mean
> "specifically
> > Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties".
> >
> > > So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what is
> expected.
> > > As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I 
missed
> > > it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to assume:
> > >
> > > * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those
> > > * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during
> lookup.
> >
> > Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.
> > Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.
> >
> > > Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would guess that by
> > > the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:
> > > * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that
> >
> > Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling reason to 
use
> > "cmn".
> >
> > > * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional
> > fallback lookup to zh if desired.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > --
> > Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
> > in any language.  --Allen Brown                 cowan@ccil.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark 

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To: <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>,
	"'Mark Davis'" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>, mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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I agree with Karen.

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> Sent: 02 May 2008 22:15
> To: Mark Davis
> Cc: LTRU Working Group; mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Comments.
>
> mark.edward.davis@gmail.com wrote on 05/02/2008 01:27:15 PM:
>
> > I see it a bit differently:
> > cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written
> (eg cmn-HK)
> > yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg
> > yue-HK) zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing
> > Mandarin, Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag
> > either Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with
> 'zh'. (eg zh-HK).
>
> So far, so good.
>
> > However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, 'zh' has
> > long been used to mean Mandarin only.
>
> Disagree. It was simply the most specific tag one could use
> for the Mandarin at the time. That doesn't mean the tag ever
> meant "Mandarin" to anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means
> Traditional Mandarin as this tag has been used more often
> than zh-Hant.
>
> > In practice, 'zh' and 'cmn' are best treated as synonyms
>
> OK, so you're changing the semantics of the tag in practice.
> I don't think there can be any other interpretation of that
> statement. I think this subtlety will be utterly lost on
> anyone who did not participate in this working group. Where
> else do we give users a choice as far as which language
> subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they can't use "eng"
> but that they have a choice of "zh" or "cmn" when it comes to
> Mandarin?
>
>
> > Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is preferred over
> 'cmn'.
> > Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be
> tagged with
> 'zh'
>
> Your average developer just gets a language requirement and
> wants to match
> it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their need for
> backwards compatibility and multiple language modes as part
> of this task.
> This wasn't something that needed to be considered in the
> past.  Forcing
> the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to
> use is not
> likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and could even
> prevent the adoption and utility of this work.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>
>
>
> > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:
> > It seems like we're suggesting the following:
> >
> > 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is "zh".
> > 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" unless of
> course you
> feel
> > like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea because
> that's how
> it's
> > been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by
> the way, you
> > can also use "zh-cmn" or "zh-guoyu."
> >
> > I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case --
> if extlang is
> > removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be
> "cmn."
> > If it's not "cmn," you've changed the semantic of the "zh" tag to
> > disinclude "yue."  With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and
> "zh-yue" and the
> > semantics of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an
> overwhelming
> > number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandarin does not
> sway me. I
> have
> > Cantonese subtitles.
> >
> > There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my
> > Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is
> something in
> > the draft that is ambiguous.
> >
> > In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO
> calls Chinese
> are
> > mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are
> languages.
> This
> > seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear
> recommendation on the
> best
> > tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is
> something
> > wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Karen Broome
> >
> >
> >
> > ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:
> >
> > > Shawn Steele scripsit:
> > >
> > > > I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've
> been out for a
> few
> > > > weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The
> draft seems
> > > > contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my
> interpretation
> > > > of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:
> > >
> > > I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean
> "4646bis", and
> > are
> > > asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of
> the existing
> > RFC.
> > >
> > > > * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
> > > > * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > > * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just
> assume this
> is
> > > > Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."
> > >
> > > Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new
> material will be
> > > "cmn".  "zh-cmn" becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to "cmn".
> > >
> > > > I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)
> > > >
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice:
> > > >
> > > >   "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language
> > > >   tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been
> historically
> > > >   used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it
> SHOULD be used
> > > >   in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language
> unless
> > > >   it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a
> whole
> > > >   from that enclosed dominant language variety."
> > > >
> > > > So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn"
> "unless
> > > > it is necessary"
> > >
> > > Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean
> "must be used
> > for".
> > > There are occasional reasons not to use it.
> > >
> > > > Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:
> > > >
> > > >   "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a
> recording of
> > human
> > > >   speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the
> language
> > > >   is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the
> subtitles to a
> > > >   movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin,
> > Traditional
> > > >   script), but the audio track for the same language
> would be tagged
> > > >   "zh-cmn". "
> > >
> > > Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.
> > >
> > > Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other
> places where
> > > zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?
> > >
> > > > So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for
> Mandarin in some
> > > > cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,
> > > > I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably
> I shouldn't
> > > > choose a grandfathered tag.
> > >
> > > Right.
> > >
> > > > Later we have:
> > > >
> > > >   "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call
> for special
> > > >   consideration. Because the written form is very
> similar for most
> > > >   languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage
> (and because
> > > >   historically subtags for the various encompassed
> languages were
> not
> > > >   available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have
> historically
> > > >   used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with
> > > >   'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can
> be usefully
> > > >   applied when searching for content or when providing
> fallbacks in
> > > >   language negotiation. For example, the information
> that 'yue' has
> > > >   a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup
> algorithm to
> > > >   fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to
> "zh-Hans-CN" without
> > > >   losing the script and region information (even though
> the user did
> > > >   not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "
> > > >
> > > > This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)
> > >
> > > Not really.  The core idea is that the "zh" tag is
> vague/inclusive and
> > can
> > > be used for any variety of Chinese.  However, most spoken
> Chinese is
> in
> > fact
> > > Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact
> Mandarin, so there
> > is
> > > a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin.  In order to
> > benefit
> > > people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is introduced to mean
> > "specifically
> > > Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties".
> > >
> > > > So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what is
> > expected.
> > > > As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I
> missed
> > > > it, but if I only have the draft as context I would
> have to assume:
> > > >
> > > > * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those
> > > > * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look
> at zh during
> > lookup.
> > >
> > > Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.
> > > Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.
> > >
> > > > Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would
> guess that by
> > > > the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:
> > > > * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that
> > >
> > > Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling
> reason to
> use
> > > "cmn".
> > >
> > > > * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional
> > > fallback lookup to zh if desired.
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
> > > in any language.  --Allen Brown                 cowan@ccil.org
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:15 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:

> Comments.
>
> mark.edward.davis@gmail.com wrote on 05/02/2008 01:27:15 PM:
>
> > I see it a bit differently:
> > cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg cmn-HK)
> > yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg yue-HK)
> > zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing Mandarin,
> > Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag either
> > Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with 'zh'. (eg zh-HK).
>
> So far, so good.
>
> > However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, 'zh' has
> > long been used to mean Mandarin only.
>
> Disagree. It was simply the most specific tag one could use for the
> Mandarin at the time. That doesn't mean the tag ever meant "Mandarin" to
> anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as this tag
> has been used more often than zh-Hant.


I stand by what I said: it has long been *used* to mean just Mandarin. If
you make a request using 'zh' to products from Google, Microsoft, Apple,
Sun, and so on, *in practice* that does *not* mean:

*Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is Mandarin or
Cantonese or Hakka.*

Instead, *in practice*, it means:

***Give me Mandarin*.


>
> > In practice, 'zh' and 'cmn' are best treated as synonyms
>
> OK, so you're changing the semantics of the tag in practice. I don't think
> there can be any other interpretation of that statement. I think this
> subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate in this
> working group. Where else do we give users a choice as far as which
> language subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they can't use "eng"
> but that they have a choice of "zh" or "cmn" when it comes to Mandarin?


> > Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is preferred over
> 'cmn'.
> > Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be tagged with
> 'zh'
>
>
> Your average developer just gets a language requirement and wants to match
> it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their need for
> backwards compatibility and multiple language modes as part of this task.
> This wasn't something that needed to be considered in the past.  Forcing
> the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to use is not
> likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and could even
> prevent the adoption and utility of this work.



Personally, if someone in my company came to me and said "what should I
use", I would unconditionally say "zh". If someone were to hand us 'cmn-CN',
I'd say, map that first thing to "zh-CN". Backward compatibility dominates.

The important thing for us is to get the *new* capability offered by "yue",
etc., not to make a distinction between 'zh' and 'cmn' that would be
extremely painful to implement and return *no* extra value for our users.

If you are in an isolated, new environment where you didn't have any
backwards compatibility issues, it'd be fine to make a distinction between
'zh' and 'cmn'. Those environments are going to probably be rather rare.


>
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>
>
>
> > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:
> > It seems like we're suggesting the following:
> >
> > 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is "zh".
> > 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" unless of course you
> feel
> > like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea because that's how
> it's
> > been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by the way, you
> > can also use "zh-cmn" or "zh-guoyu."
> >
> > I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if extlang is
> > removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be
> "cmn."
> > If it's not "cmn," you've changed the semantic of the "zh" tag to
> > disinclude "yue."  With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue" and the
> > semantics of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an overwhelming
> > number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandarin does not sway me. I
> have
> > Cantonese subtitles.
> >
> > There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my
> > Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is something in
> > the draft that is ambiguous.
> >
> > In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls Chinese
> are
> > mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are languages.
> This
> > seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on the
> best
> > tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is
> something
> > wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Karen Broome
> >
> >
> >
> > ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:
> >
> > > Shawn Steele scripsit:
> > >
> > > > I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've been out for a
> few
> > > > weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The draft seems
> > > > contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my
> interpretation
> > > > of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:
> > >
> > > I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean "4646bis", and
> > are
> > > asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the existing
> > RFC.
> > >
> > > > * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
> > > > * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > > * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just assume this
> is
> > > > Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."
> > >
> > > Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material will be
> > > "cmn".  "zh-cmn" becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to "cmn".
> > >
> > > > I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)
> > > >
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice:
> > > >
> > > >   "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language
> > > >   tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically
> > > >   used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used
> > > >   in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language
> unless
> > > >   it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a
> whole
> > > >   from that enclosed dominant language variety."
> > > >
> > > > So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn"
> "unless
> > > > it is necessary"
> > >
> > > Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean "must be used
> > for".
> > > There are occasional reasons not to use it.
> > >
> > > > Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:
> > > >
> > > >   "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of
> > human
> > > >   speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the
> language
> > > >   is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a
> > > >   movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin,
> > Traditional
> > > >   script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged
> > > >   "zh-cmn". "
> > >
> > > Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.
> > >
> > > Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other places where
> > > zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?
> > >
> > > > So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin in some
> > > > cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,
> > > > I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably I shouldn't
> > > > choose a grandfathered tag.
> > >
> > > Right.
> > >
> > > > Later we have:
> > > >
> > > >   "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
> > > >   consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most
> > > >   languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because
> > > >   historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were
> not
> > > >   available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically
> > > >   used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with
> > > >   'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully
> > > >   applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in
> > > >   language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has
> > > >   a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to
> > > >   fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without
> > > >   losing the script and region information (even though the user did
> > > >   not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "
> > > >
> > > > This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)
> > >
> > > Not really.  The core idea is that the "zh" tag is vague/inclusive and
> > can
> > > be used for any variety of Chinese.  However, most spoken Chinese is
> in
> > fact
> > > Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin, so there
> > is
> > > a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin.  In order to
> > benefit
> > > people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is introduced to mean
> > "specifically
> > > Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties".
> > >
> > > > So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what is
> > expected.
> > > > As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I
> missed
> > > > it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to assume:
> > > >
> > > > * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those
> > > > * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during
> > lookup.
> > >
> > > Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.
> > > Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.
> > >
> > > > Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would guess that by
> > > > the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:
> > > > * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that
> > >
> > > Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling reason to
> use
> > > "cmn".
> > >
> > > > * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional
> > > fallback lookup to zh if desired.
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
> > > in any language.  --Allen Brown                 cowan@ccil.org
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark
>
>


-- 
Mark

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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:15 PM,  &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Comments.<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a> wrote on 05/02/2008 01:27:15 PM:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; I see it a bit differently:<br>
&gt; cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg cmn-HK)<br>
&gt; yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg yue-HK)<br>
&gt; zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing Mandarin,<br>
&gt; Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag either<br>
&gt; Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with &#39;zh&#39;. (eg zh-HK).<br>
<br>
</div>So far, so good.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, &#39;zh&#39; has<br>
&gt; long been used to mean Mandarin only.<br>
<br>
</div>Disagree. It was simply the most specific tag one could use for the<br>
Mandarin at the time. That doesn&#39;t mean the tag ever meant &quot;Mandarin&quot; to<br>
anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as this tag<br>
has been used more often than zh-Hant.</blockquote><div><br>I stand by what I said: it has long been <i>used</i> to mean just Mandarin. If you make a request using &#39;zh&#39; to products from Google, Microsoft, Apple, Sun, and so on, <i>in practice</i> that does <i><b>not</b></i> mean: <br>
<br><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><i>Give me some kind of Chinese, I don&#39;t care whether it is Mandarin or Cantonese or Hakka.</i><br><br></div>Instead, <i>in practice</i>, it means:<br><br><i></i><div style="margin-left: 40px;">
<i>Give me Mandarin</i>.<br></div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; In practice, &#39;zh&#39; and &#39;cmn&#39; are best treated as synonyms<br>
<br>
</div>OK, so you&#39;re changing the semantics of the tag in practice. I don&#39;t think<br>
there can be any other interpretation of that statement. I think this<br>
subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate in this<br>
working group. Where else do we give users a choice as far as which<br>
language subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they can&#39;t use &quot;eng&quot;<br>
but that they have a choice of &quot;zh&quot; or &quot;cmn&quot; when it comes to Mandarin?</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">
<br>
&gt; Where backwards compatibility is important, &#39;zh&#39; is preferred over<br>
&#39;cmn&#39;.<br>
&gt; Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be tagged with<br>
&#39;zh&#39;<br>
<br>
</div><br>Your average developer just gets a language requirement and wants to match<br>
it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their need for<br>
backwards compatibility and multiple language modes as part of this task.<br>
This wasn&#39;t something that needed to be considered in the past. &nbsp;Forcing<br>
the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to use is not<br>
likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and could even<br>
prevent the adoption and utility of this work.</blockquote><div><br><br>
Personally, if someone in my company came to me and said &quot;what should I
use&quot;, I would unconditionally say &quot;zh&quot;. If someone were to hand us &#39;cmn-CN&#39;, I&#39;d say,
map that first thing to &quot;zh-CN&quot;. Backward compatibility dominates.<br><br>The important thing for us is to get the *new* capability offered by &quot;yue&quot;, etc., not to make a distinction between &#39;zh&#39; and &#39;cmn&#39; that would be extremely painful to implement and return <i><b>no</b></i> extra value for our users.<br>
<br>If you are in an isolated, new environment where you didn&#39;t have any backwards compatibility issues, it&#39;d be fine to make a distinction between &#39;zh&#39; and &#39;cmn&#39;. Those environments are going to probably be rather rare.<br>

&nbsp;</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Karen Broome<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM, &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; It seems like we&#39;re suggesting the following:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is &quot;zh&quot;.<br>
&gt; 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is &quot;cmn&quot; unless of course you<br>
feel<br>
&gt; like using &quot;zh&quot; (which, psst, might be a good idea because that&#39;s how<br>
it&#39;s<br>
&gt; been used even if that isn&#39;t exactly what it means) and by the way, you<br>
&gt; can also use &quot;zh-cmn&quot; or &quot;zh-guoyu.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if extlang is<br>
&gt; removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be<br>
&quot;cmn.&quot;<br>
&gt; If it&#39;s not &quot;cmn,&quot; you&#39;ve changed the semantic of the &quot;zh&quot; tag to<br>
&gt; disinclude &quot;yue.&quot; &nbsp;With extlang, you have &quot;zh-cmn&quot; and &quot;zh-yue&quot; and the<br>
&gt; semantics of &quot;zh&quot; remain consistent. The argument that an overwhelming<br>
&gt; number of documents tagged with &quot;zh&quot; are Mandarin does not sway me. I<br>
have<br>
&gt; Cantonese subtitles.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my<br>
&gt; Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is something in<br>
&gt; the draft that is ambiguous.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls Chinese<br>
are<br>
&gt; mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are languages.<br>
This<br>
&gt; seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on the<br>
best<br>
&gt; tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is<br>
something<br>
&gt; wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Karen Broome<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Shawn Steele scripsit:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I&#39;m confused by the text surrounding Chinese. &nbsp;I&#39;ve been out for a<br>
few<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion. &nbsp;The draft seems<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my<br>
interpretation<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; of what I&#39;m reading now for Chinese is:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I assume that when you say &quot;3066bis&quot; you actually mean &quot;4646bis&quot;, and<br>
&gt; are<br>
&gt; &gt; asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the existing<br>
&gt; RFC.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Yes.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say &quot;don&#39;t just assume this<br>
is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Mandarin, it really is Mandarin.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material will be<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;cmn&quot;. &nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn&quot; becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to &quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
<a href="http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice" target="_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice</a>:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language<br>
unless<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a<br>
whole<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; from that enclosed dominant language variety.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; So this sounds like I&#39;m supposed to use &quot;zh&quot; instead of &quot;cmn&quot;<br>
&quot;unless<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; it is necessary&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Yes, provided that &quot;pretty much assumed&quot; does not mean &quot;must be used<br>
&gt; for&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt; There are occasional reasons not to use it.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of<br>
&gt; human<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the<br>
language<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; movie might use the tag &quot;zh-cmn-Hant&quot; (Chinese, Mandarin,<br>
&gt; Traditional<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;zh-cmn&quot;. &quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Oops, that should be fixed to remove the &quot;zh-&quot; part.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other places where<br>
&gt; &gt; zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; So apparently it is &quot;necessary&quot; to use a tag for Mandarin in some<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; cases. &nbsp;This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I don&#39;t get that. &nbsp;This section is &quot;choice&quot;, presumably I shouldn&#39;t<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; choose a grandfathered tag.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Right.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Later we have:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; languages having &#39;zh&#39; (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were<br>
not<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; available), languages such as &#39;yue&#39; (Cantonese) have historically<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; used either &#39;zh&#39; or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &#39;zh&#39;. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; language negotiation. For example, the information that &#39;yue&#39; has<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; a macrolangauge of &#39;zh&#39; could be used in the Lookup algorithm to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; fallback from a request for &quot;yue-Hans-CN&quot; to &quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot; without<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; losing the script and region information (even though the user did<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; not specify &quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot; in their request). &quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Not really. &nbsp;The core idea is that the &quot;zh&quot; tag is vague/inclusive and<br>
&gt; can<br>
&gt; &gt; be used for any variety of Chinese. &nbsp;However, most spoken Chinese is<br>
in<br>
&gt; fact<br>
&gt; &gt; Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin, so there<br>
&gt; is<br>
&gt; &gt; a tendency to assume that &quot;zh&quot; simply means Mandarin. &nbsp;In order to<br>
&gt; benefit<br>
&gt; &gt; people who must distinguish, the tag &quot;cmn&quot; is introduced to mean<br>
&gt; &quot;specifically<br>
&gt; &gt; Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; So from the text of the draft I&#39;m not entirely certain what is<br>
&gt; expected.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I<br>
missed<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to assume:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during<br>
&gt; lookup.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.<br>
&gt; &gt; Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Can someone clarify what the expectation is? &nbsp;I would guess that by<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Not so. &nbsp;&quot;zh&quot; should be used unless there is a compelling reason to<br>
use<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional<br>
&gt; &gt; fallback lookup to zh if desired.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Yes.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN &nbsp; &nbsp;John Cowan<br>
&gt; &gt; in any language. &nbsp;--Allen Brown &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Mark<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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References: <30b660a20805021327j30e7ca55g74b2b45446225178@mail.gmail.com>	<OFBA968E6B.D186D1CC-ON8825743D.0071DD6D-8825743D.00750EB2@spe.sony.com>
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Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 17:54:01 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis

>>> However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, 'zh' has
>>> long been used to mean Mandarin only.
>> Disagree. It was simply the most specific tag one could use for the
>> Mandarin at the time. That doesn't mean the tag ever meant "Mandarin" to
>> anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as this tag
>> has been used more often than zh-Hant.
>
> I stand by what I said: it has long been used to mean just Mandarin.

Actually, I think the truth is slightly different from both, though closer to Karen: it has long been used to mean just "Chinese", with content that most of the time happened to be Mandarin.


> If you make a request using 'zh' to products from Google, Microsoft,
> Apple, Sun, and so on, in practice that does not mean:
> Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is Mandarin or
> Cantonese or Hakka.
> Instead, in practice, it means:
> Give me Mandarin.

Well, it might not mean "Give me _some kind_ of Chinese," but I think it *does* mean "Give me Chinese," period, because zh was created with exactly that vague meaning -- when all those implementations that use it were created, nobody was thinking that the Mandarin/Cantonese distinction might ever be relevant for those applications.

(Hence this part of the definition of "macrolanguage": it's treated in some applications as though it were a single language.)



Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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As much as we'd like to rewrite history, it's a semantic change.  There is 
a whole list of grandfathered tags such as zh-min, zh-yue, zh-hakka, and 
others that will make no sense after this new semantic goes into effect 
with RFC 4646bis.  You've not only changed the semantic of "zh",  you've 
made all of those tags senseless as well.  The very existence of those 
tags that identify other Chinese languages indicates to me that the 
registrants of those tags, myself included, did NOT interpret "zh" to mean 
Mandarin. 

When I look at this page, I can see that John Cowan, Clay Compton, Kai-hus 
Tai, and I all registered tags that assume a more generic definition of 
"zh". This seems to contradict your statement that "zh" has always meant 
Mandarin in practice. Do you assume that these tag registrants registered 
these tags and then never put them to use? 

        http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tags

Looking at the registrations you made, it appears possible that you were 
operating under this assumption, but I'm not so sure this is the case with 
every user.

Regards,

Karen Broome


ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/02/2008 03:19:31 PM:

> 

> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:15 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:
> Comments.
> 
> mark.edward.davis@gmail.com wrote on 05/02/2008 01:27:15 PM:
> 
> > I see it a bit differently:
> > cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg cmn-HK)
> > yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg 
yue-HK)
> > zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing Mandarin,
> > Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag either
> > Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with 'zh'. (eg zh-HK).

> So far, so good.
> 
> > However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, 'zh' has
> > long been used to mean Mandarin only.

> Disagree. It was simply the most specific tag one could use for the
> Mandarin at the time. That doesn't mean the tag ever meant "Mandarin" to
> anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as this 
tag
> has been used more often than zh-Hant.
> 
> I stand by what I said: it has long been used to mean just Mandarin.
> If you make a request using 'zh' to products from Google, Microsoft,
> Apple, Sun, and so on, in practice that does not mean: 

> Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is Mandarin or
> Cantonese or Hakka.

> Instead, in practice, it means:

> Give me Mandarin.
> 
> 
> > In practice, 'zh' and 'cmn' are best treated as synonyms

> OK, so you're changing the semantics of the tag in practice. I don't 
think
> there can be any other interpretation of that statement. I think this
> subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate in this
> working group. Where else do we give users a choice as far as which
> language subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they can't use 
"eng"
> but that they have a choice of "zh" or "cmn" when it comes to Mandarin?
> 
> > Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is preferred over
> 'cmn'.
> > Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be tagged with
> 'zh'

> 
> Your average developer just gets a language requirement and wants to 
match
> it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their need for
> backwards compatibility and multiple language modes as part of this 
task.
> This wasn't something that needed to be considered in the past.  Forcing
> the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to use is not
> likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and could even
> prevent the adoption and utility of this work.
> 
> 
> Personally, if someone in my company came to me and said "what 
> should I use", I would unconditionally say "zh". If someone were to 
> hand us 'cmn-CN', I'd say, map that first thing to "zh-CN". Backward
> compatibility dominates.
> 
> The important thing for us is to get the *new* capability offered by
> "yue", etc., not to make a distinction between 'zh' and 'cmn' that 
> would be extremely painful to implement and return no extra value 
> for our users.
> 
> If you are in an isolated, new environment where you didn't have any
> backwards compatibility issues, it'd be fine to make a distinction 
> between 'zh' and 'cmn'. Those environments are going to probably be 
> rather rare.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Karen Broome
> 
> 
> 
> > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:
> > It seems like we're suggesting the following:
> >
> > 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is "zh".
> > 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" unless of course you
> feel
> > like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea because that's how
> it's
> > been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by the way, 
you
> > can also use "zh-cmn" or "zh-guoyu."
> >
> > I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if extlang 
is
> > removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be
> "cmn."
> > If it's not "cmn," you've changed the semantic of the "zh" tag to
> > disinclude "yue."  With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue" and 
the
> > semantics of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an overwhelming
> > number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandarin does not sway me. I
> have
> > Cantonese subtitles.
> >
> > There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my
> > Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is something 
in
> > the draft that is ambiguous.
> >
> > In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls Chinese
> are
> > mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are languages.
> This
> > seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on the
> best
> > tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is
> something
> > wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Karen Broome
> >
> >
> >
> > ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:
> >
> > > Shawn Steele scripsit:
> > >
> > > > I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've been out for a
> few
> > > > weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The draft 
seems
> > > > contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my
> interpretation
> > > > of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:
> > >
> > > I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean "4646bis", 
and
> > are
> > > asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the 
existing
> > RFC.
> > >
> > > > * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
> > > > * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > > * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just assume this
> is
> > > > Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."
> > >
> > > Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material will be
> > > "cmn".  "zh-cmn" becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to "cmn".
> > >
> > > > I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)
> > > >
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice:
> > > >
> > > >   "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language
> > > >   tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically
> > > >   used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be 
used
> > > >   in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language
> unless
> > > >   it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a
> whole
> > > >   from that enclosed dominant language variety."
> > > >
> > > > So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn"
> "unless
> > > > it is necessary"
> > >
> > > Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean "must be used
> > for".
> > > There are occasional reasons not to use it.
> > >
> > > > Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:
> > > >
> > > >   "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of
> > human
> > > >   speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the
> language
> > > >   is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to 
a
> > > >   movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin,
> > Traditional
> > > >   script), but the audio track for the same language would be 
tagged
> > > >   "zh-cmn". "
> > >
> > > Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.
> > >
> > > Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other places 
where
> > > zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?
> > >
> > > > So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin in some
> > > > cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,
> > > > I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably I 
shouldn't
> > > > choose a grandfathered tag.
> > >
> > > Right.
> > >
> > > > Later we have:
> > > >
> > > >   "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
> > > >   consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most
> > > >   languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because
> > > >   historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were
> not
> > > >   available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have 
historically
> > > >   used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with
> > > >   'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully
> > > >   applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks 
in
> > > >   language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' 
has
> > > >   a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to
> > > >   fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" 
without
> > > >   losing the script and region information (even though the user 
did
> > > >   not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "
> > > >
> > > > This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)
> > >
> > > Not really.  The core idea is that the "zh" tag is vague/inclusive 
and
> > can
> > > be used for any variety of Chinese.  However, most spoken Chinese is
> in
> > fact
> > > Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin, so 
there
> > is
> > > a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin.  In order to
> > benefit
> > > people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is introduced to mean
> > "specifically
> > > Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties".
> > >
> > > > So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what is
> > expected.
> > > > As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I
> missed
> > > > it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to 
assume:
> > > >
> > > > * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those
> > > > * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during
> > lookup.
> > >
> > > Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.
> > > Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.
> > >
> > > > Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would guess that 
by
> > > > the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:
> > > > * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that
> > >
> > > Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling reason to
> use
> > > "cmn".
> > >
> > > > * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional
> > > fallback lookup to zh if desired.
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
> > > in any language.  --Allen Brown                 cowan@ccil.org
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark

> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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2008/5/3 Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>:

> In practice, 'zh' and 'cmn' are best treated as synonyms

Personally, I'd assume that all content marked up as "zh" is Chinese
of some variety. Just because a lot of content is assumed to be in
Mandarin, or even if most content is in Mandarin, some content will
not be in Mandarin.

The issue is that not all content marked up as "zh" is actually
Mandarin. So applications shouldn't make assumptions., and just treat
it as Chinese of some variety.

Considering Chinese content produced locally in Australia, I'd want to
verify each single document before assuming it was a particular
Chinese language. I wouldn't trust a language tag "zh". Its too
imprecise for my needs.

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
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if you look at most web based applications, and most word processing,
most users don't even think of language.

zh-TW, zg-HK, zh-Hant to most uses means give me Traditional Chinese characters

zh-CN, zh-Hans means give me Simplified Chinese characters.

and in Australia, "zh" could be anything, considering only a
proportion of the Chinese speaking population here understand
Mandarin.

most web developers, are ignorant of language issues, they'll just
treat it as generic Chinese.

Microsoft, Apple, etc may treat "zh" as mandarin, not sure about that,
since support for Zh-HK would mean that applications would need ot be
able to support Cantonese as well as Mandarin.

Some users would be right to assumeand expect that any application
that supported zh-CN would be able to handle all Chinese languages
using hanzi.

Andrew

2008/5/3 Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>:

> I stand by what I said: it has long been used to mean just Mandarin. If you
> make a request using 'zh' to products from Google, Microsoft, Apple, Sun,
> and so on, in practice that does not mean:
>
> Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is Mandarin or
> Cantonese or Hakka.
>
> Instead, in practice, it means:
>
>  Give me Mandarin.
>



-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
lang.support@gmail.com
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Andrew Cunningham 2008-05-03 03.42:
> Microsoft, Apple, etc may treat "zh" as mandarin, not sure about that,
>   

Correct to be unsure: OS X 10.4 and 10.5 uses the codes zh_CN and zh_TW, 
and in the interface (in the tooltips - because I can't read "Chinese", 
they call it "Chinese (Traditional)" and "Chinese (Simplified)". In 
other words, they do not call it Mandarin.

OS X treats 'en' as US English in many ways. But it is still only 
referred to as English - which is correct. Putting English as first 
langauge of OS X means that Safari sends out a request to websites for 
the 'en' language tag.
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I'm obviously not making myself clear, because you are leaping to
conclusions that are not founded in what I'm saying.

*I am NOT saying that zh is the same as cmn.* I'm not changing the semantics
of 'zh' at all*.
What I'm saying is: *although they are semantically distinct,* my advice to
most users would be that in practice for backwards compatibility in programs
they are best off treated as synonyms.

Maybe it would be clearer with another example. I might say, for practical
purposes on input in a particular program the value $99.999999 is best
handled as though it were synonymous with $100 (eg rounding). That doesn't
mean I think that these two numbers are synonyms -- far from it!

Mark

* (Although, frankly, the few words of identification given in ISO 639-1 and
-2 are often very fuzzy, as we've seen time and time again. Many people, for
example, consider Swiss German a kind of German. And "German" was all it
said for 'de' in ISO 639-1. So it would be perfectly natural for people to
think that Swiss German would be de-CH, just like Austrian German is de-AT.
)


On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:26 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:

> As much as we'd like to rewrite history, it's a semantic change.  There is
> a whole list of grandfathered tags such as zh-min, zh-yue, zh-hakka, and
> others that will make no sense after this new semantic goes into effect
> with RFC 4646bis.  You've not only changed the semantic of "zh",  you've
> made all of those tags senseless as well.  The very existence of those
> tags that identify other Chinese languages indicates to me that the
> registrants of those tags, myself included, did NOT interpret "zh" to mean
> Mandarin.
>
> When I look at this page, I can see that John Cowan, Clay Compton, Kai-hus
> Tai, and I all registered tags that assume a more generic definition of
> "zh". This seems to contradict your statement that "zh" has always meant
> Mandarin in practice. Do you assume that these tag registrants registered
> these tags and then never put them to use?
>
>        http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tags
>
> Looking at the registrations you made, it appears possible that you were
> operating under this assumption, but I'm not so sure this is the case with
> every user.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>
>
> ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/02/2008 03:19:31 PM:
>
> >
>
> > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:15 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:
> > Comments.
> >
> > mark.edward.davis@gmail.com wrote on 05/02/2008 01:27:15 PM:
> >
> > > I see it a bit differently:
> > > cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg cmn-HK)
> > > yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg
> yue-HK)
> > > zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing Mandarin,
> > > Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag either
> > > Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with 'zh'. (eg zh-HK).
>
> > So far, so good.
> >
> > > However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, 'zh' has
> > > long been used to mean Mandarin only.
>
> > Disagree. It was simply the most specific tag one could use for the
> > Mandarin at the time. That doesn't mean the tag ever meant "Mandarin" to
> > anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as this
> tag
> > has been used more often than zh-Hant.
> >
> > I stand by what I said: it has long been used to mean just Mandarin.
> > If you make a request using 'zh' to products from Google, Microsoft,
> > Apple, Sun, and so on, in practice that does not mean:
>
> > Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is Mandarin or
> > Cantonese or Hakka.
>
> > Instead, in practice, it means:
>
> > Give me Mandarin.
> >
> >
> > > In practice, 'zh' and 'cmn' are best treated as synonyms
>
> > OK, so you're changing the semantics of the tag in practice. I don't
> think
> > there can be any other interpretation of that statement. I think this
> > subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate in this
> > working group. Where else do we give users a choice as far as which
> > language subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they can't use
> "eng"
> > but that they have a choice of "zh" or "cmn" when it comes to Mandarin?
> >
> > > Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is preferred over
> > 'cmn'.
> > > Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be tagged with
> > 'zh'
>
> >
> > Your average developer just gets a language requirement and wants to
> match
> > it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their need for
> > backwards compatibility and multiple language modes as part of this
> task.
> > This wasn't something that needed to be considered in the past.  Forcing
> > the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to use is not
> > likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and could even
> > prevent the adoption and utility of this work.
> >
> >
> > Personally, if someone in my company came to me and said "what
> > should I use", I would unconditionally say "zh". If someone were to
> > hand us 'cmn-CN', I'd say, map that first thing to "zh-CN". Backward
> > compatibility dominates.
> >
> > The important thing for us is to get the *new* capability offered by
> > "yue", etc., not to make a distinction between 'zh' and 'cmn' that
> > would be extremely painful to implement and return no extra value
> > for our users.
> >
> > If you are in an isolated, new environment where you didn't have any
> > backwards compatibility issues, it'd be fine to make a distinction
> > between 'zh' and 'cmn'. Those environments are going to probably be
> > rather rare.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Karen Broome
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:
> > > It seems like we're suggesting the following:
> > >
> > > 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is "zh".
> > > 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" unless of course you
> > feel
> > > like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea because that's how
> > it's
> > > been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by the way,
> you
> > > can also use "zh-cmn" or "zh-guoyu."
> > >
> > > I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if extlang
> is
> > > removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be
> > "cmn."
> > > If it's not "cmn," you've changed the semantic of the "zh" tag to
> > > disinclude "yue."  With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue" and
> the
> > > semantics of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an overwhelming
> > > number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandarin does not sway me. I
> > have
> > > Cantonese subtitles.
> > >
> > > There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my
> > > Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is something
> in
> > > the draft that is ambiguous.
> > >
> > > In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls Chinese
> > are
> > > mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are languages.
> > This
> > > seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on the
> > best
> > > tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is
> > something
> > > wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Karen Broome
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:
> > >
> > > > Shawn Steele scripsit:
> > > >
> > > > > I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've been out for a
> > few
> > > > > weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The draft
> seems
> > > > > contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my
> > interpretation
> > > > > of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:
> > > >
> > > > I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean "4646bis",
> and
> > > are
> > > > asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the
> existing
> > > RFC.
> > > >
> > > > > * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
> > > > > * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.
> > > >
> > > > Yes.
> > > >
> > > > > * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just assume this
> > is
> > > > > Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."
> > > >
> > > > Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material will be
> > > > "cmn".  "zh-cmn" becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to "cmn".
> > > >
> > > > > I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)
> > > > >
> > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice:
> > > > >
> > > > >   "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language
> > > > >   tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically
> > > > >   used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be
> used
> > > > >   in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language
> > unless
> > > > >   it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a
> > whole
> > > > >   from that enclosed dominant language variety."
> > > > >
> > > > > So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn"
> > "unless
> > > > > it is necessary"
> > > >
> > > > Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean "must be used
> > > for".
> > > > There are occasional reasons not to use it.
> > > >
> > > > > Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:
> > > > >
> > > > >   "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of
> > > human
> > > > >   speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the
> > language
> > > > >   is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to
> a
> > > > >   movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin,
> > > Traditional
> > > > >   script), but the audio track for the same language would be
> tagged
> > > > >   "zh-cmn". "
> > > >
> > > > Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.
> > > >
> > > > Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other places
> where
> > > > zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?
> > > >
> > > > > So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin in some
> > > > > cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,
> > > > > I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably I
> shouldn't
> > > > > choose a grandfathered tag.
> > > >
> > > > Right.
> > > >
> > > > > Later we have:
> > > > >
> > > > >   "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
> > > > >   consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most
> > > > >   languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because
> > > > >   historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were
> > not
> > > > >   available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have
> historically
> > > > >   used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with
> > > > >   'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully
> > > > >   applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks
> in
> > > > >   language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue'
> has
> > > > >   a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to
> > > > >   fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN"
> without
> > > > >   losing the script and region information (even though the user
> did
> > > > >   not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "
> > > > >
> > > > > This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)
> > > >
> > > > Not really.  The core idea is that the "zh" tag is vague/inclusive
> and
> > > can
> > > > be used for any variety of Chinese.  However, most spoken Chinese is
> > in
> > > fact
> > > > Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin, so
> there
> > > is
> > > > a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin.  In order to
> > > benefit
> > > > people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is introduced to mean
> > > "specifically
> > > > Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties".
> > > >
> > > > > So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what is
> > > expected.
> > > > > As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I
> > missed
> > > > > it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to
> assume:
> > > > >
> > > > > * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those
> > > > > * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during
> > > lookup.
> > > >
> > > > Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.
> > > > Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.
> > > >
> > > > > Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would guess that
> by
> > > > > the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:
> > > > > * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that
> > > >
> > > > Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling reason to
> > use
> > > > "cmn".
> > > >
> > > > > * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional
> > > > fallback lookup to zh if desired.
> > > >
> > > > Yes.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
> > > > in any language.  --Allen Brown                 cowan@ccil.org
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Ltru mailing list
> > > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mark
>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>


-- 
Mark

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I&#39;m obviously not making myself clear, because you are leaping to conclusions that are not founded in what I&#39;m saying.<br><br><b><i>I am NOT saying that zh is the same as cmn.</i></b> I&#39;m not changing the semantics of &#39;zh&#39; at all*.<br>
What I&#39;m saying is: <i>although they are semantically distinct,</i> my advice to most users would be that in practice for backwards compatibility in programs they are best off treated as synonyms.<br><br>Maybe it would be clearer with another example. I might say, for practical purposes on input in a particular program the value $99.999999 is best handled as though it were synonymous with $100 (eg rounding). That doesn&#39;t mean I think that these two numbers are synonyms -- far from it!<br>
<br>Mark<br><br>* (Although, frankly, the few words of identification given in ISO 639-1
and -2 are often very fuzzy, as we&#39;ve seen time and time again. Many
people, for example, consider Swiss German a kind of German. And
&quot;German&quot; was all it said for &#39;de&#39; in ISO 639-1. So it would be
perfectly natural for people to think that Swiss German would be de-CH, just like Austrian German is de-AT. )<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:26 PM,  &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
As much as we&#39;d like to rewrite history, it&#39;s a semantic change. &nbsp;There is<br>
a whole list of grandfathered tags such as zh-min, zh-yue, zh-hakka, and<br>
others that will make no sense after this new semantic goes into effect<br>
with RFC 4646bis. &nbsp;You&#39;ve not only changed the semantic of &quot;zh&quot;, &nbsp;you&#39;ve<br>
made all of those tags senseless as well. &nbsp;The very existence of those<br>
tags that identify other Chinese languages indicates to me that the<br>
registrants of those tags, myself included, did NOT interpret &quot;zh&quot; to mean<br>
Mandarin.<br>
<br>
When I look at this page, I can see that John Cowan, Clay Compton, Kai-hus<br>
Tai, and I all registered tags that assume a more generic definition of<br>
&quot;zh&quot;. This seems to contradict your statement that &quot;zh&quot; has always meant<br>
Mandarin in practice. Do you assume that these tag registrants registered<br>
these tags and then never put them to use?<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tags" target="_blank">http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tags</a><br>
<br>
Looking at the registrations you made, it appears possible that you were<br>
operating under this assumption, but I&#39;m not so sure this is the case with<br>
every user.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Karen Broome<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> wrote on 05/02/2008 03:19:31 PM:<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
&gt; On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:15 PM, &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Comments.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a> wrote on 05/02/2008 01:27:15 PM:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I see it a bit differently:<br>
&gt; &gt; cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg cmn-HK)<br>
&gt; &gt; yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg<br>
yue-HK)<br>
&gt; &gt; zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing Mandarin,<br>
&gt; &gt; Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag either<br>
&gt; &gt; Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with &#39;zh&#39;. (eg zh-HK).<br>
<br>
&gt; So far, so good.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, &#39;zh&#39; has<br>
&gt; &gt; long been used to mean Mandarin only.<br>
<br>
&gt; Disagree. It was simply the most specific tag one could use for the<br>
&gt; Mandarin at the time. That doesn&#39;t mean the tag ever meant &quot;Mandarin&quot; to<br>
&gt; anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as this<br>
tag<br>
&gt; has been used more often than zh-Hant.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I stand by what I said: it has long been used to mean just Mandarin.<br>
&gt; If you make a request using &#39;zh&#39; to products from Google, Microsoft,<br>
&gt; Apple, Sun, and so on, in practice that does not mean:<br>
<br>
&gt; Give me some kind of Chinese, I don&#39;t care whether it is Mandarin or<br>
&gt; Cantonese or Hakka.<br>
<br>
&gt; Instead, in practice, it means:<br>
<br>
&gt; Give me Mandarin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; In practice, &#39;zh&#39; and &#39;cmn&#39; are best treated as synonyms<br>
<br>
&gt; OK, so you&#39;re changing the semantics of the tag in practice. I don&#39;t<br>
think<br>
&gt; there can be any other interpretation of that statement. I think this<br>
&gt; subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate in this<br>
&gt; working group. Where else do we give users a choice as far as which<br>
&gt; language subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they can&#39;t use<br>
&quot;eng&quot;<br>
&gt; but that they have a choice of &quot;zh&quot; or &quot;cmn&quot; when it comes to Mandarin?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Where backwards compatibility is important, &#39;zh&#39; is preferred over<br>
&gt; &#39;cmn&#39;.<br>
&gt; &gt; Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be tagged with<br>
&gt; &#39;zh&#39;<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Your average developer just gets a language requirement and wants to<br>
match<br>
&gt; it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their need for<br>
&gt; backwards compatibility and multiple language modes as part of this<br>
task.<br>
&gt; This wasn&#39;t something that needed to be considered in the past. &nbsp;Forcing<br>
&gt; the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to use is not<br>
&gt; likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and could even<br>
&gt; prevent the adoption and utility of this work.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Personally, if someone in my company came to me and said &quot;what<br>
&gt; should I use&quot;, I would unconditionally say &quot;zh&quot;. If someone were to<br>
&gt; hand us &#39;cmn-CN&#39;, I&#39;d say, map that first thing to &quot;zh-CN&quot;. Backward<br>
&gt; compatibility dominates.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The important thing for us is to get the *new* capability offered by<br>
&gt; &quot;yue&quot;, etc., not to make a distinction between &#39;zh&#39; and &#39;cmn&#39; that<br>
&gt; would be extremely painful to implement and return no extra value<br>
&gt; for our users.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If you are in an isolated, new environment where you didn&#39;t have any<br>
&gt; backwards compatibility issues, it&#39;d be fine to make a distinction<br>
&gt; between &#39;zh&#39; and &#39;cmn&#39;. Those environments are going to probably be<br>
&gt; rather rare.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Karen Broome<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM, &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; It seems like we&#39;re suggesting the following:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is &quot;zh&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt; 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is &quot;cmn&quot; unless of course you<br>
&gt; feel<br>
&gt; &gt; like using &quot;zh&quot; (which, psst, might be a good idea because that&#39;s how<br>
&gt; it&#39;s<br>
&gt; &gt; been used even if that isn&#39;t exactly what it means) and by the way,<br>
you<br>
&gt; &gt; can also use &quot;zh-cmn&quot; or &quot;zh-guoyu.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if extlang<br>
is<br>
&gt; &gt; removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should be<br>
&gt; &quot;cmn.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; If it&#39;s not &quot;cmn,&quot; you&#39;ve changed the semantic of the &quot;zh&quot; tag to<br>
&gt; &gt; disinclude &quot;yue.&quot; &nbsp;With extlang, you have &quot;zh-cmn&quot; and &quot;zh-yue&quot; and<br>
the<br>
&gt; &gt; semantics of &quot;zh&quot; remain consistent. The argument that an overwhelming<br>
&gt; &gt; number of documents tagged with &quot;zh&quot; are Mandarin does not sway me. I<br>
&gt; have<br>
&gt; &gt; Cantonese subtitles.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag my<br>
&gt; &gt; Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is something<br>
in<br>
&gt; &gt; the draft that is ambiguous.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls Chinese<br>
&gt; are<br>
&gt; &gt; mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are languages.<br>
&gt; This<br>
&gt; &gt; seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on the<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt; &gt; tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is<br>
&gt; something<br>
&gt; &gt; wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Karen Broome<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Shawn Steele scripsit:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I&#39;m confused by the text surrounding Chinese. &nbsp;I&#39;ve been out for a<br>
&gt; few<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion. &nbsp;The draft<br>
seems<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my<br>
&gt; interpretation<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of what I&#39;m reading now for Chinese is:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I assume that when you say &quot;3066bis&quot; you actually mean &quot;4646bis&quot;,<br>
and<br>
&gt; &gt; are<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the<br>
existing<br>
&gt; &gt; RFC.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Yes.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say &quot;don&#39;t just assume this<br>
&gt; is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Mandarin, it really is Mandarin.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material will be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;cmn&quot;. &nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn&quot; becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to &quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; <a href="http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice" target="_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice</a>:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be<br>
used<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language<br>
&gt; unless<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a<br>
&gt; whole<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; from that enclosed dominant language variety.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So this sounds like I&#39;m supposed to use &quot;zh&quot; instead of &quot;cmn&quot;<br>
&gt; &quot;unless<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it is necessary&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, provided that &quot;pretty much assumed&quot; does not mean &quot;must be used<br>
&gt; &gt; for&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; There are occasional reasons not to use it.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of<br>
&gt; &gt; human<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the<br>
&gt; language<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to<br>
a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; movie might use the tag &quot;zh-cmn-Hant&quot; (Chinese, Mandarin,<br>
&gt; &gt; Traditional<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; script), but the audio track for the same language would be<br>
tagged<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;zh-cmn&quot;. &quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Oops, that should be fixed to remove the &quot;zh-&quot; part.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other places<br>
where<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So apparently it is &quot;necessary&quot; to use a tag for Mandarin in some<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; cases. &nbsp;This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag though,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I don&#39;t get that. &nbsp;This section is &quot;choice&quot;, presumably I<br>
shouldn&#39;t<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; choose a grandfathered tag.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Right.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Later we have:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; languages having &#39;zh&#39; (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were<br>
&gt; not<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; available), languages such as &#39;yue&#39; (Cantonese) have<br>
historically<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; used either &#39;zh&#39; or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &#39;zh&#39;. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks<br>
in<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; language negotiation. For example, the information that &#39;yue&#39;<br>
has<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; a macrolangauge of &#39;zh&#39; could be used in the Lookup algorithm to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; fallback from a request for &quot;yue-Hans-CN&quot; to &quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot;<br>
without<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; losing the script and region information (even though the user<br>
did<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; not specify &quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot; in their request). &quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1 (2.)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Not really. &nbsp;The core idea is that the &quot;zh&quot; tag is vague/inclusive<br>
and<br>
&gt; &gt; can<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; be used for any variety of Chinese. &nbsp;However, most spoken Chinese is<br>
&gt; in<br>
&gt; &gt; fact<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin, so<br>
there<br>
&gt; &gt; is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; a tendency to assume that &quot;zh&quot; simply means Mandarin. &nbsp;In order to<br>
&gt; &gt; benefit<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; people who must distinguish, the tag &quot;cmn&quot; is introduced to mean<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;specifically<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So from the text of the draft I&#39;m not entirely certain what is<br>
&gt; &gt; expected.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and I<br>
&gt; missed<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to<br>
assume:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of those<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh during<br>
&gt; &gt; lookup.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn instead.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Can someone clarify what the expectation is? &nbsp;I would guess that<br>
by<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement that:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Not so. &nbsp;&quot;zh&quot; should be used unless there is a compelling reason to<br>
&gt; use<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which optional<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; fallback lookup to zh if desired.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Yes.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN &nbsp; &nbsp;John Cowan<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; in any language. &nbsp;--Allen Brown &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; Mark<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
</div></div>&gt; Mark _______________________________________________<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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<div>I don't think the average developer will understand the distinction yo=
u've made below. We should have a clear recommendation for languages and di=
alects formerly encompassed by "zh".&nbsp; <br><br>I need a tag for spoken =
Taiwanese Mandarin. I mention that it's spoken only because I won't conside=
r using any tag with a script in it. I do not believe the members of this l=
ist will agree on what the best tag for this content is. If this list can't=
 agree on the preferred tag, I fear we've done something wrong.<br><br>Rega=
rds,<br><br>Karen Broome<br><br><br><div><br><div><br></div><font color=3D"=
#990099">-----mark.edward.davis@gmail.com wrote: -----<br><br></font>&gt;To=
:&nbsp;Karen=5FBroome@spe.sony.com<br>&gt;From:&nbsp;"Mark&nbsp;Davis"&nbsp=
;&lt;mark.davis@icu-project.org&gt;<br>&gt;Sent&nbsp;by:&nbsp;mark.edward.d=
avis@gmail.com<br>&gt;Date:&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;07:47PM<br>&gt;cc:&nbsp;"L=
TRU&nbsp;Working&nbsp;Group"&nbsp;&lt;ltru@ietf.org&gt;<br>&gt;Subject:&nbs=
p;Re:&nbsp;[Ltru]&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;really&nbsp;confused&nbsp;by&nbsp;chinese&n=
bsp;in&nbsp;3066bis<br>&gt;<br>&gt;I'm obviously not making myself clear, b=
ecause you are leaping to<br>&gt;conclusions&nbsp;that&nbsp;are&nbsp;not&nb=
sp;founded&nbsp;in&nbsp;what&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;saying.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;I=
&nbsp;am&nbsp;NOT&nbsp;saying&nbsp;that&nbsp;zh&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;same&=
nbsp;as&nbsp;cmn.<br>&gt;&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;not&nbsp;changing&nbsp;the&nbsp;sem=
antics&nbsp;of&nbsp;'zh'&nbsp;at&nbsp;all*.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;What&nbs=
p;I'm&nbsp;saying&nbsp;is:&nbsp;<br>&gt;although&nbsp;they&nbsp;are&nbsp;se=
mantically&nbsp;distinct,<br>&gt; my advice to most users would be that in =
practice for backwards<br>&gt;compatibility&nbsp;in&nbsp;programs&nbsp;they=
&nbsp;are&nbsp;best&nbsp;off&nbsp;treated&nbsp;as&nbsp;synonyms.<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt;<br>&gt;Maybe it would be clearer with another example. I might say, f=
or<br>&gt;practical purposes on input in a particular program the value<br>=
&gt;$99.999999 is best handled as though it were synonymous with $100 (eg<b=
r>&gt;rounding). That doesn't mean I think that these two numbers are<br>&g=
t;synonyms&nbsp;--&nbsp;far&nbsp;from&nbsp;it!<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;Mark<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;* (Although, frankly, the few words of ident=
ification given in ISO<br>&gt;639-1<br>&gt;and&nbsp;-2&nbsp;are&nbsp;often&=
nbsp;very&nbsp;fuzzy,&nbsp;as&nbsp;we've&nbsp;seen&nbsp;time&nbsp;and&nbsp;=
time&nbsp;again.&nbsp;Many<br>&gt;people,&nbsp;for&nbsp;example,&nbsp;consi=
der&nbsp;Swiss&nbsp;German&nbsp;a&nbsp;kind&nbsp;of&nbsp;German.&nbsp;And<b=
r>&gt;"German"&nbsp;was&nbsp;all&nbsp;it&nbsp;said&nbsp;for&nbsp;'de'&nbsp;=
in&nbsp;ISO&nbsp;639-1.&nbsp;So&nbsp;it&nbsp;would&nbsp;be<br>&gt;perfectly=
 natural for people to think that Swiss German would be<br>&gt;de-CH,&nbsp;=
just&nbsp;like&nbsp;Austrian&nbsp;German&nbsp;is&nbsp;de-AT.&nbsp;)<br>&gt;=
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;On&nbsp;Fri,&nbsp;May&nbsp;2,&nbsp;2008&nbs=
p;at&nbsp;6:26&nbsp;PM,&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<br>&gt;Karen=5FBroome@spe.sony.com<=
br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;As much as we'd like to rewr=
ite history, it's a semantic change.<br>&gt;&nbsp;There&nbsp;is<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;a whole list of grandfathered tags such as zh-min, zh-yue, zh-h=
akka,<br>&gt;and<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;others that will make no sense afte=
r this new semantic goes into<br>&gt;effect<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;with RFC=
 4646bis. &nbsp;You've not only changed the semantic of "zh",<br>&gt;&nbsp;=
you've<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;made all of those tags senseless as well. &nb=
sp;The very existence of<br>&gt;those<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;tags&nbsp;that=
&nbsp;identify&nbsp;other&nbsp;Chinese&nbsp;languages&nbsp;indicates&nbsp;t=
o&nbsp;me&nbsp;that&nbsp;the<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;registrants of those ta=
gs, myself included, did NOT interpret "zh" to<br>&gt;mean<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;Mandarin.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;When I look at this=
 page, I can see that John Cowan, Clay Compton,<br>&gt;Kai-hus<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;Tai, and I all registered tags that assume a more generic defini=
tion<br>&gt;of<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;"zh". This seems to contradict your s=
tatement that "zh" has always<br>&gt;meant<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Mandarin =
in practice. Do you assume that these tag registrants<br>&gt;registered<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;these&nbsp;tags&nbsp;and&nbsp;then&nbsp;never&nbsp;put&=
nbsp;them&nbsp;to&nbsp;use?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>&gt;http://www.iana.org/assignm=
ents/language-tags<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Looking at the re=
gistrations you made, it appears possible that you<br>&gt;were<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;operating under this assumption, but I'm not so sure this is the=
 case<br>&gt;with<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;every&nbsp;user.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Regards,<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Karen=
&nbsp;Broome<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;ltru-bo=
unces@ietf.org<br>&gt;&nbsp;wrote&nbsp;on&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;03:19:31&nbs=
p;PM:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;On&nbsp;Fri,&nbsp;May&nbsp;2,&nbsp;2008&nbsp;at&nbs=
p;2:15&nbsp;PM,&nbsp;&lt;<br>&gt;Karen=5FBroome@spe.sony.com<br>&gt;&gt;&nb=
sp;wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Comments.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt=
;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>&gt;mark.edward.davis@gmail.com<=
br>&gt;&nbsp;wrote&nbsp;on&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;01:27:15&nbsp;PM:<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;I&nbsp;see&nb=
sp;it&nbsp;a&nbsp;bit&nbsp;differently:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; cm=
n means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg<br>&gt;cmn-HK)=
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;yue&nbsp;means&nbsp;specificall=
y&nbsp;Cantonese&nbsp;Chinese,&nbsp;spoken&nbsp;or&nbsp;written&nbsp;(eg<br=
>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;yue-HK)<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; zh means any =
Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing<br>&gt;Mandarin,<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese,&nbsp;and&nbsp;others.&nbsp;It&nbs=
p;thus&nbsp;is&nbsp;formally&nbsp;correct&nbsp;to&nbsp;tag&nbsp;either<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content =
with 'zh'. (eg<br>&gt;zh-HK).<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&n=
bsp;So&nbsp;far,&nbsp;so&nbsp;good.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; However, because of the de facto predominance of Mand=
arin, 'zh'<br>&gt;has<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;long&nbsp;=
been&nbsp;used&nbsp;to&nbsp;mean&nbsp;Mandarin&nbsp;only.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Disagree.&nbsp;It&nbsp;was&nbsp;simply&nbsp=
;the&nbsp;most&nbsp;specific&nbsp;tag&nbsp;one&nbsp;could&nbsp;use&nbsp;for=
&nbsp;the<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Mandarin at the time. That doesn't me=
an the tag ever meant<br>&gt;"Mandarin"&nbsp;to<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
 anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as<br>&gt;th=
is<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;tag<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;has&nbsp;bee=
n&nbsp;used&nbsp;more&nbsp;often&nbsp;than&nbsp;zh-Hant.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I stand by what I said: it has long b=
een used to mean just<br>&gt;Mandarin.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; If you m=
ake a request using 'zh' to products from Google,<br>&gt;Microsoft,<br>&gt;=
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Apple,&nbsp;Sun,&nbsp;and&nbsp;so&nbsp;on,&nbsp;i=
n&nbsp;practice&nbsp;that&nbsp;does&nbsp;not&nbsp;mean:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether=
 it is Mandarin<br>&gt;or<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese&nbsp;o=
r&nbsp;Hakka.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Instead,&nbs=
p;in&nbsp;practice,&nbsp;it&nbsp;means:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Give&nbsp;me&nbsp;Mandarin.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;In&nbsp;p=
ractice,&nbsp;'zh'&nbsp;and&nbsp;'cmn'&nbsp;are&nbsp;best&nbsp;treated&nbsp=
;as&nbsp;synonyms<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; OK, so you're=
 changing the semantics of the tag in practice. I<br>&gt;don't<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;think<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; there can be any other interpr=
etation of that statement. I think<br>&gt;this<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; =
subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate in<br>&gt;t=
his<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;working&nbsp;group.&nbsp;Where&nbsp;el=
se&nbsp;do&nbsp;we&nbsp;give&nbsp;users&nbsp;a&nbsp;choice&nbsp;as&nbsp;far=
&nbsp;as&nbsp;which<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; language subtag to use? How=
 am I going to tell people they can't<br>&gt;use<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;"en=
g"<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; but that they have a choice of "zh" or "cmn"=
 when it comes to<br>&gt;Mandarin?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is pr=
eferred<br>&gt;over<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;'cmn'.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be=
 tagged<br>&gt;with<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;'zh'<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Your average develop=
er just gets a language requirement and wants<br>&gt;to<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;match<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; it to a code. They may not be interes=
ted in assessing their need<br>&gt;for<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;bac=
kwards&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;and&nbsp;multiple&nbsp;language&nbsp;modes&n=
bsp;as&nbsp;part&nbsp;of&nbsp;this<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;task.<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; This wasn't something that needed to be considered in the =
past.<br>&gt;&nbsp;Forcing<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; the user to use cond=
itional logic to figure out which tag to use is<br>&gt;not<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt; likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and coul=
d<br>&gt;even<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;prevent&nbsp;the&nbsp;adopti=
on&nbsp;and&nbsp;utility&nbsp;of&nbsp;this&nbsp;work.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Persona=
lly,&nbsp;if&nbsp;someone&nbsp;in&nbsp;my&nbsp;company&nbsp;came&nbsp;to&nb=
sp;me&nbsp;and&nbsp;said&nbsp;"what<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;should=
&nbsp;I&nbsp;use",&nbsp;I&nbsp;would&nbsp;unconditionally&nbsp;say&nbsp;"zh=
".&nbsp;If&nbsp;someone&nbsp;were&nbsp;to<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; hand =
us 'cmn-CN', I'd say, map that first thing to "zh-CN".<br>&gt;Backward<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;dominates.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; The important thing for us is to ge=
t the *new* capability offered<br>&gt;by<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;"=
yue",&nbsp;etc.,&nbsp;not&nbsp;to&nbsp;make&nbsp;a&nbsp;distinction&nbsp;be=
tween&nbsp;'zh'&nbsp;and&nbsp;'cmn'&nbsp;that<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&n=
bsp;would&nbsp;be&nbsp;extremely&nbsp;painful&nbsp;to&nbsp;implement&nbsp;a=
nd&nbsp;return&nbsp;no&nbsp;extra&nbsp;value<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nb=
sp;for&nbsp;our&nbsp;users.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt; If you are in an isolated, new environment where you didn't have<b=
r>&gt;any<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;backwards&nbsp;compatibility&nbs=
p;issues,&nbsp;it'd&nbsp;be&nbsp;fine&nbsp;to&nbsp;make&nbsp;a&nbsp;distinc=
tion<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;between&nbsp;'zh'&nbsp;and&nbsp;'cmn'=
.&nbsp;Those&nbsp;environments&nbsp;are&nbsp;going&nbsp;to&nbsp;probably&nb=
sp;be<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;rather&nbsp;rare.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Regards,<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Karen&nbsp;Broome<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&n=
bsp;&gt;&nbsp;On&nbsp;Fri,&nbsp;May&nbsp;2,&nbsp;2008&nbsp;at&nbsp;12:25&nb=
sp;PM,&nbsp;&lt;<br>&gt;Karen=5FBroome@spe.sony.com<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;wrote:=
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;It&nbsp;seems&nbsp;like&nbsp;we=
're&nbsp;suggesting&nbsp;the&nbsp;following:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nb=
sp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;1)&nbsp;The&nbsp;shortes=
t&nbsp;tag&nbsp;for&nbsp;written&nbsp;Mandarin&nbsp;is&nbsp;"zh".<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" un=
less of course<br>&gt;you<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;feel<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea be=
cause that's<br>&gt;how<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;it's<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and=
 by the<br>&gt;way,<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;you<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&=
nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;can&nbsp;also&nbsp;use&nbsp;"zh-cmn"&nbsp;or&nbsp;"zh-guoyu.=
"<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; I =
think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if<br>&gt;extlang<=
br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;is<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; removed and we d=
o not want to change the tag semantics -- should<br>&gt;be<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;"cmn."<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;If&nbsp;=
it's&nbsp;not&nbsp;"cmn,"&nbsp;you've&nbsp;changed&nbsp;the&nbsp;semantic&n=
bsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;"zh"&nbsp;tag&nbsp;to<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;=
 disinclude "yue." &nbsp;With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue"<br>&g=
t;and<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;the<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; semantics=
 of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an<br>&gt;overwhelming<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandari=
n does not sway<br>&gt;me.&nbsp;I<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;have<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese&nbsp;subtitles.<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; There are dif=
ferences of opinion on how I should accurately tag<br>&gt;my<br>&gt;<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there =
is<br>&gt;something<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;in<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&n=
bsp;&gt;&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft&nbsp;that&nbsp;is&nbsp;ambiguous.<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; In written form,=
 it seems like the variants of what ISO calls<br>&gt;Chinese<br>&gt;<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;are<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; mutually intelligib=
le (dialects). In spoken form, they are<br>&gt;languages.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;This<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; seems to create some =
odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on<br>&gt;the<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;best<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;tag&nbsp;to&n=
bsp;use&nbsp;for&nbsp;these&nbsp;languages.&nbsp;I&nbsp;agree&nbsp;with&nbs=
p;Shawn&nbsp;that&nbsp;there&nbsp;is<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;somet=
hing<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;wrong&nbsp;here.&nbsp;I&nbs=
p;just&nbsp;wish&nbsp;I&nbsp;could&nbsp;better&nbsp;express&nbsp;my&nbsp;re=
servations.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&g=
t;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Regards,<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Karen&nbsp;Broome<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>&gt;ltru-boun=
ces@ietf.org<br>&gt;&nbsp;wrote&nbsp;on&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;12:03:59&nbsp;=
PM:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=
&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Shawn&nbsp;Steele&nbsp;scripsit:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt=
;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I'm co=
nfused by the text surrounding Chinese. &nbsp;I've been out<br>&gt;for&nbsp=
;a<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;few<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&g=
t;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;weeks&nbsp;so&nbsp;I&nbsp;may&nbsp;have&nbsp;mi=
ssed&nbsp;some&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;discussion.&nbsp;&nbsp;The&nbsp;draft<=
br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;seems<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt=
;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;contradictory,&nbsp;but&nbsp;with&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft&nbsp=
;as&nbsp;my&nbsp;only&nbsp;guide,&nbsp;my<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=
interpretation<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nb=
sp;of&nbsp;what&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;reading&nbsp;now&nbsp;for&nbsp;Chinese&nbsp;i=
s:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt; &gt; I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean<br>&gt=
;"4646bis",<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;and<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt=
;&nbsp;are<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;asking&nbsp=
;about&nbsp;the&nbsp;meaning&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;new&nbsp;draft&nbsp;rath=
er&nbsp;than&nbsp;of&nbsp;the<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;existing<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;RFC.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nb=
sp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;*&nb=
sp;zh&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&nbsp;pretty&nbsp;much&nbsp;assumed&nbsp;to&nbsp;b=
e&nbsp;Mandarin.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&=
nbsp;*&nbsp;yue&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&nbsp;used&nbsp;if&nbsp;you&nbsp;want&nb=
sp;Cantonese.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Yes.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nb=
sp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * zh-cmn shoul=
d be used if you want to say "don't just assume<br>&gt;this<br>&gt;<br>&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;is<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&=
gt;&nbsp;Mandarin,&nbsp;it&nbsp;really&nbsp;is&nbsp;Mandarin."<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; R=
ather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material<br>&gt;will&nbs=
p;be<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; "cmn". &nbsp;"zh-cmn" becomes a =
grandfathered form equivalent to<br>&gt;"cmn".<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&=
nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&g=
t;&nbsp;I&nbsp;get&nbsp;this&nbsp;from&nbsp;the&nbsp;end&nbsp;of&nbsp;4.1&n=
bsp;(choice)<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>&gt;http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-i=
etf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice<br>&gt;:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&=
gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; "=
In general, use the most specific subtag to form the<br>&gt;language<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; tag. However, where the macrola=
nguage tag has been<br>&gt;historically<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &g=
t; &gt; &nbsp; used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD<br=
>&gt;be<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;used<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &=
gt; &nbsp; in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed<br>&gt;langu=
age<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;unless<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt=
; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage=
 as<br>&gt;a<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;whole<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;from&nbsp;that&nbsp;enc=
losed&nbsp;dominant&nbsp;language&nbsp;variety."<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;=
&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;So&nbsp;this&nbsp;sounds&nbsp;like&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;suppos=
ed&nbsp;to&nbsp;use&nbsp;"zh"&nbsp;instead&nbsp;of&nbsp;"cmn"<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;"unless<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;=
&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;necessary"<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp=
;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, provided that "p=
retty much assumed" does not mean "must be<br>&gt;used<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;for".<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt=
;&nbsp;There&nbsp;are&nbsp;occasional&nbsp;reasons&nbsp;not&nbsp;to&nbsp;us=
e&nbsp;it.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Earlier&nbsp;in&nbsp;2.&nbsp=
;of&nbsp;4.1&nbsp;it&nbsp;says:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;=
&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; "When labe=
ling content that is unwritten (such as a<br>&gt;recording&nbsp;of<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;human<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&=
gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;speech),&nbsp;the&nbsp;script&nbsp=
;subtag&nbsp;should&nbsp;not&nbsp;be&nbsp;used,&nbsp;even&nbsp;if&nbsp;the<=
br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;language<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; =
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the<br>&gt=
;subtitles&nbsp;to<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;a<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbs=
p;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;movie&nbsp;might&nbsp;use&nbsp;=
the&nbsp;tag&nbsp;"zh-cmn-Hant"&nbsp;(Chinese,&nbsp;Mandarin,<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Traditional<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=
&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;script),&nbsp;but&nbsp;the&nbsp;a=
udio&nbsp;track&nbsp;for&nbsp;the&nbsp;same&nbsp;language&nbsp;would&nbsp;b=
e<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;tagged<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;=
&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"zh-cmn".&nbsp;"<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;=
Oops,&nbsp;that&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&nbsp;fixed&nbsp;to&nbsp;remove&nbsp;the=
&nbsp;"zh-"&nbsp;part.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Addison, can you make this fix quickly an=
d look for other<br>&gt;places<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;where<br>&gt;<br>&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;zh-&nbsp;or&nbsp;ar-&nbsp;might&nbsp;=
appear&nbsp;and&nbsp;see&nbsp;if&nbsp;they&nbsp;are&nbsp;now&nbsp;correct?<=
br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; &gt; So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin i=
n<br>&gt;some<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; cases. &nbsp;This =
example uses an irregular grandfathered tag<br>&gt;though,<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;I&nbsp;don't&nbsp;get&nbsp;t=
hat.&nbsp;&nbsp;This&nbsp;section&nbsp;is&nbsp;"choice",&nbsp;presumably&nb=
sp;I<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;shouldn't<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;=
&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;choose&nbsp;a&nbsp;grandfathered&nbsp;tag.<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=
&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Right.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<=
br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Later&nbsp;w=
e&nbsp;have:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; "In particular, the Chinese f=
amily of languages call for<br>&gt;special<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; &gt; &nbsp; consideration. Because the written form is very similar f=
or<br>&gt;most<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; languages =
having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and<br>&gt;because<br>&gt;<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; historically subtags for the various en=
compassed languages<br>&gt;were<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;not<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;availa=
ble),&nbsp;languages&nbsp;such&nbsp;as&nbsp;'yue'&nbsp;(Cantonese)&nbsp;hav=
e<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;historically<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;=
 &gt; &nbsp; used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning<br>&gt=
;with<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; 'zh'. This means th=
at macrolanguage information can be<br>&gt;usefully<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; applied when searching for content or when provi=
ding<br>&gt;fallbacks<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;in<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; language negotiation. For example, the information t=
hat<br>&gt;'yue'<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;has<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt=
; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup<br>&=
gt;algorithm&nbsp;to<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&=
gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;fallback&nbsp;from&nbsp;a&nbsp;request&nbsp;for&nbsp;"=
yue-Hans-CN"&nbsp;to&nbsp;"zh-Hans-CN"<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;without<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; losing the script and region i=
nformation (even though the<br>&gt;user<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;did<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;not&nbsp=
;specify&nbsp;"zh-Hans-CN"&nbsp;in&nbsp;their&nbsp;request).&nbsp;"<br>&gt;=
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; This is very different from the Mandarin description in =
4.1<br>&gt;(2.)<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Not really. &nbsp;The core idea is that the "zh"=
 tag is<br>&gt;vague/inclusive<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;and<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;can<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; be used=
 for any variety of Chinese. &nbsp;However, most spoken<br>&gt;Chinese&nbsp=
;is<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;in<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&g=
t;&nbsp;fact<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Mandarin, and almost all=
 written Chinese is in fact Mandarin,<br>&gt;so<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;ther=
e<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;is<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin. &nbsp;In o=
rder<br>&gt;to<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;benefit<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is =
introduced to<br>&gt;mean<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;"speci=
fically<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Mandarin,&nbsp=
;excluding&nbsp;all&nbsp;non-Mandarin&nbsp;varieties".<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So f=
rom the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what<br>&gt;is<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;expected.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt=
; &gt; &gt; As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and<br=
>&gt;I<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;missed<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&=
nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;it,&nbsp;but&nbsp;if&nbsp;I&nbsp;only&nb=
sp;have&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft&nbsp;as&nbsp;context&nbsp;I&nbsp;would&nbsp;hav=
e&nbsp;to<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;assume:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&=
gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * zh =3D=
=3D cmn =3D=3D zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of<br>&gt;those<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I=
 may need to look at zh<br>&gt;during<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;=
&nbsp;lookup.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn =
=3D=3D zh-cmn<br>&gt;instead.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&g=
t;&nbsp;Cantonese&nbsp;might&nbsp;be&nbsp;any&nbsp;of&nbsp;zh,&nbsp;zh-yue,=
&nbsp;or&nbsp;yue.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Can someone clarify what the expectation=
 is? &nbsp;I would guess<br>&gt;that<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;by<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be us=
ed statement<br>&gt;that:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&n=
bsp;&gt;&nbsp;*&nbsp;Only&nbsp;zh&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&nbsp;used&nbsp;to&nbs=
p;represent&nbsp;Mandarin,&nbsp;and&nbsp;that<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&n=
bsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Not so. &nbsp;"zh"=
 should be used unless there is a compelling<br>&gt;reason&nbsp;to<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;use<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt=
;&nbsp;"cmn".<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * only yue should be used to represent Canton=
ese, which<br>&gt;optional<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&=
nbsp;fallback&nbsp;lookup&nbsp;to&nbsp;zh&nbsp;if&nbsp;desired.<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&=
nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Yes.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;=
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;--<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Real&nbsp;FORTRAN&nbsp;programmers&nbsp;can&nbsp=
;program&nbsp;FORTRAN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;John&nbsp;Cowan<br>&gt;<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;in&nbsp;any&nbsp;language.&nbsp;&nbs=
p;--Allen&nbsp;Brown&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>&gt;cowan@ccil.org<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&g=
t;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;list<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&n=
bsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>&gt;Ltru@ietf.org<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&n=
bsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>&gt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<=
br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp=
;list<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>&gt;Ltru@ietf.org<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>&gt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/ltru<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt=
;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;--<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Mark<br=
>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;--<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Mark&nbsp;=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;=
list<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>&gt;Ltru@ietf.org<br>&gt;<br>&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>&gt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;--=
&nbsp;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Mark<br>&gt;</div></div>=


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri May  2 20:45:56 2008
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From: "Edmon Chung" <edmon@afilias.info>
To: <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>, "'Mark Davis'" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:45:30 +0800
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Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Your use of "Taiwanese" is a bit confusing.

 

If you are saying Mandarin spoken in Taiwan.  In that case, I would tag it:

 

cmn-TW

 

"Taiwanese" is also a dialect and you can use "min".  Taiwanese Mandarin
would somewhat mean a mixture of Taiwanese and Mandarin?  In that case I
think the tag should be (multiple langauges):

 

min,cmn

 

Is it possible to do cmn-min?  It would seem a bit strange but I can
appreciate the possibility, i.e. that the content is a mixture of Taiwanese
and Mandarin.  It is quite common in Taiwan I understand.  I mean mixing it
within sentences and not just some content with distinct portions of
Taiwanese and Mandarin.

 

Overall, I feel the description for Chinese in the document is acceptable.
The example of "zh-cmn" and "zh-cmn-hant" should be updated to "cmn" and
"cmn-hant" I feel.  I however have a different question which I apologize
might create even more confusion (and potentially a stupid question)... but
nevertheless, how would I tag Pinyin content (a written form of Chinese
using English or Latin alphabets)?  Should it be: en-cmn or latn-cmn or
should it be cmn-en or cmn-latn?  If people feel it is the latter case, then
defintely zh-cmn should always be cmn.  However, if en-cmn or latn-cmn makes
sense, then perhaps there is value for zh-cmn to distinguish between it and
en-cmn.

 

Edmon

 

 

 

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:14 AM
To: Mark Davis
Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

 

I don't think the average developer will understand the distinction you've
made below. We should have a clear recommendation for languages and dialects
formerly encompassed by "zh".  

I need a tag for spoken Taiwanese Mandarin. I mention that it's spoken only
because I won't consider using any tag with a script in it. I do not believe
the members of this list will agree on what the best tag for this content
is. If this list can't agree on the preferred tag, I fear we've done
something wrong.

Regards,

Karen Broome



 

 

-----mark.edward.davis@gmail.com wrote: -----

>To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
>From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
>Sent by: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
>Date: 05/02/2008 07:47PM
>cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
>Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
>I'm obviously not making myself clear, because you are leaping to
>conclusions that are not founded in what I'm saying.
>
>
>I am NOT saying that zh is the same as cmn.
> I'm not changing the semantics of 'zh' at all*.
>
>
>What I'm saying is: 
>although they are semantically distinct,
> my advice to most users would be that in practice for backwards
>compatibility in programs they are best off treated as synonyms.
>
>
>Maybe it would be clearer with another example. I might say, for
>practical purposes on input in a particular program the value
>$99.999999 is best handled as though it were synonymous with $100 (eg
>rounding). That doesn't mean I think that these two numbers are
>synonyms -- far from it!
>
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>* (Although, frankly, the few words of identification given in ISO
>639-1
>and -2 are often very fuzzy, as we've seen time and time again. Many
>people, for example, consider Swiss German a kind of German. And
>"German" was all it said for 'de' in ISO 639-1. So it would be
>perfectly natural for people to think that Swiss German would be
>de-CH, just like Austrian German is de-AT. )
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:26 PM,  <
>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
>> wrote:
>
>
>As much as we'd like to rewrite history, it's a semantic change.
> There is
>
>
>a whole list of grandfathered tags such as zh-min, zh-yue, zh-hakka,
>and
>
>
>others that will make no sense after this new semantic goes into
>effect
>
>
>with RFC 4646bis.  You've not only changed the semantic of "zh",
> you've
>
>
>made all of those tags senseless as well.  The very existence of
>those
>
>
>tags that identify other Chinese languages indicates to me that the
>
>
>registrants of those tags, myself included, did NOT interpret "zh" to
>mean
>
>
>Mandarin.
>
>
>
>
>When I look at this page, I can see that John Cowan, Clay Compton,
>Kai-hus
>
>
>Tai, and I all registered tags that assume a more generic definition
>of
>
>
>"zh". This seems to contradict your statement that "zh" has always
>meant
>
>
>Mandarin in practice. Do you assume that these tag registrants
>registered
>
>
>these tags and then never put them to use?
>
>
>
>
>        
>http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tags
>
>
>
>
>Looking at the registrations you made, it appears possible that you
>were
>
>
>operating under this assumption, but I'm not so sure this is the case
>with
>
>
>every user.
>
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>
>
>Karen Broome
>
>
>
>
>
>
>ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> wrote on 05/02/2008 03:19:31 PM:
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:15 PM, <
>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
>> wrote:
>
>
>> Comments.
>
>
>>
>
>
>> 
>mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
> wrote on 05/02/2008 01:27:15 PM:
>
>
>>
>
>
>> > I see it a bit differently:
>
>
>> > cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg
>cmn-HK)
>
>
>> > yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg
>
>
>yue-HK)
>
>
>> > zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing
>Mandarin,
>
>
>> > Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag either
>
>
>> > Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with 'zh'. (eg
>zh-HK).
>
>
>
>
>> So far, so good.
>
>
>>
>
>
>> > However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, 'zh'
>has
>
>
>> > long been used to mean Mandarin only.
>
>
>
>
>> Disagree. It was simply the most specific tag one could use for the
>
>
>> Mandarin at the time. That doesn't mean the tag ever meant
>"Mandarin" to
>
>
>> anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as
>this
>
>
>tag
>
>
>> has been used more often than zh-Hant.
>
>
>>
>
>
>> I stand by what I said: it has long been used to mean just
>Mandarin.
>
>
>> If you make a request using 'zh' to products from Google,
>Microsoft,
>
>
>> Apple, Sun, and so on, in practice that does not mean:
>
>
>
>
>> Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is Mandarin
>or
>
>
>> Cantonese or Hakka.
>
>
>
>
>> Instead, in practice, it means:
>
>
>
>
>> Give me Mandarin.
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> > In practice, 'zh' and 'cmn' are best treated as synonyms
>
>
>
>
>> OK, so you're changing the semantics of the tag in practice. I
>don't
>
>
>think
>
>
>> there can be any other interpretation of that statement. I think
>this
>
>
>> subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate in
>this
>
>
>> working group. Where else do we give users a choice as far as which
>
>
>> language subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they can't
>use
>
>
>"eng"
>
>
>> but that they have a choice of "zh" or "cmn" when it comes to
>Mandarin?
>
>
>>
>
>
>> > Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is preferred
>over
>
>
>> 'cmn'.
>
>
>> > Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be tagged
>with
>
>
>> 'zh'
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> Your average developer just gets a language requirement and wants
>to
>
>
>match
>
>
>> it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their need
>for
>
>
>> backwards compatibility and multiple language modes as part of this
>
>
>task.
>
>
>> This wasn't something that needed to be considered in the past.
> Forcing
>
>
>> the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to use is
>not
>
>
>> likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and could
>even
>
>
>> prevent the adoption and utility of this work.
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> Personally, if someone in my company came to me and said "what
>
>
>> should I use", I would unconditionally say "zh". If someone were to
>
>
>> hand us 'cmn-CN', I'd say, map that first thing to "zh-CN".
>Backward
>
>
>> compatibility dominates.
>
>
>>
>
>
>> The important thing for us is to get the *new* capability offered
>by
>
>
>> "yue", etc., not to make a distinction between 'zh' and 'cmn' that
>
>
>> would be extremely painful to implement and return no extra value
>
>
>> for our users.
>
>
>>
>
>
>> If you are in an isolated, new environment where you didn't have
>any
>
>
>> backwards compatibility issues, it'd be fine to make a distinction
>
>
>> between 'zh' and 'cmn'. Those environments are going to probably be
>
>
>> rather rare.
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> Regards,
>
>
>>
>
>
>> Karen Broome
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM, <
>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
>> wrote:
>
>
>> > It seems like we're suggesting the following:
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is "zh".
>
>
>> > 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" unless of course
>you
>
>
>> feel
>
>
>> > like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea because that's
>how
>
>
>> it's
>
>
>> > been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by the
>way,
>
>
>you
>
>
>> > can also use "zh-cmn" or "zh-guoyu."
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if
>extlang
>
>
>is
>
>
>> > removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should
>be
>
>
>> "cmn."
>
>
>> > If it's not "cmn," you've changed the semantic of the "zh" tag to
>
>
>> > disinclude "yue."  With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue"
>and
>
>
>the
>
>
>> > semantics of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an
>overwhelming
>
>
>> > number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandarin does not sway
>me. I
>
>
>> have
>
>
>> > Cantonese subtitles.
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag
>my
>
>
>> > Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is
>something
>
>
>in
>
>
>> > the draft that is ambiguous.
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls
>Chinese
>
>
>> are
>
>
>> > mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are
>languages.
>
>
>> This
>
>
>> > seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on
>the
>
>
>> best
>
>
>> > tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is
>
>
>> something
>
>
>> > wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > Regards,
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > Karen Broome
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > 
>ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > > Shawn Steele scripsit:
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've been out
>for a
>
>
>> few
>
>
>> > > > weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The draft
>
>
>seems
>
>
>> > > > contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my
>
>
>> interpretation
>
>
>> > > > of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean
>"4646bis",
>
>
>and
>
>
>> > are
>
>
>> > > asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the
>
>
>existing
>
>
>> > RFC.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
>
>
>> > > > * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Yes.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just assume
>this
>
>
>> is
>
>
>> > > > Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material
>will be
>
>
>> > > "cmn".  "zh-cmn" becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to
>"cmn".
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> 
>http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice
>:
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > >   "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the
>language
>
>
>> > > >   tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been
>historically
>
>
>> > > >   used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD
>be
>
>
>used
>
>
>> > > >   in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed
>language
>
>
>> unless
>
>
>> > > >   it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as
>a
>
>
>> whole
>
>
>> > > >   from that enclosed dominant language variety."
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > > So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn"
>
>
>> "unless
>
>
>> > > > it is necessary"
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean "must be
>used
>
>
>> > for".
>
>
>> > > There are occasional reasons not to use it.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > >   "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a
>recording of
>
>
>> > human
>
>
>> > > >   speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the
>
>
>> language
>
>
>> > > >   is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the
>subtitles to
>
>
>a
>
>
>> > > >   movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin,
>
>
>> > Traditional
>
>
>> > > >   script), but the audio track for the same language would be
>
>
>tagged
>
>
>> > > >   "zh-cmn". "
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other
>places
>
>
>where
>
>
>> > > zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin in
>some
>
>
>> > > > cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag
>though,
>
>
>> > > > I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably I
>
>
>shouldn't
>
>
>> > > > choose a grandfathered tag.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Right.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > Later we have:
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > >   "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for
>special
>
>
>> > > >   consideration. Because the written form is very similar for
>most
>
>
>> > > >   languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and
>because
>
>
>> > > >   historically subtags for the various encompassed languages
>were
>
>
>> not
>
>
>> > > >   available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have
>
>
>historically
>
>
>> > > >   used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning
>with
>
>
>> > > >   'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be
>usefully
>
>
>> > > >   applied when searching for content or when providing
>fallbacks
>
>
>in
>
>
>> > > >   language negotiation. For example, the information that
>'yue'
>
>
>has
>
>
>> > > >   a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup
>algorithm to
>
>
>> > > >   fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN"
>
>
>without
>
>
>> > > >   losing the script and region information (even though the
>user
>
>
>did
>
>
>> > > >   not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > > This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1
>(2.)
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Not really.  The core idea is that the "zh" tag is
>vague/inclusive
>
>
>and
>
>
>> > can
>
>
>> > > be used for any variety of Chinese.  However, most spoken
>Chinese is
>
>
>> in
>
>
>> > fact
>
>
>> > > Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin,
>so
>
>
>there
>
>
>> > is
>
>
>> > > a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin.  In order
>to
>
>
>> > benefit
>
>
>> > > people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is introduced to
>mean
>
>
>> > "specifically
>
>
>> > > Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties".
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what
>is
>
>
>> > expected.
>
>
>> > > > As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and
>I
>
>
>> missed
>
>
>> > > > it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to
>
>
>assume:
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > > * zh == cmn == zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of
>those
>
>
>> > > > * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh
>during
>
>
>> > lookup.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn == zh-cmn
>instead.
>
>
>> > > Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would guess
>that
>
>
>by
>
>
>> > > > the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement
>that:
>
>
>> > > > * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling
>reason to
>
>
>> use
>
>
>> > > "cmn".
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which
>optional
>
>
>> > > fallback lookup to zh if desired.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Yes.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > --
>
>
>> > > Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
>
>
>> > > in any language.  --Allen Brown                 
>cowan@ccil.org
>
>
>> > > _______________________________________________
>
>
>> > > Ltru mailing list
>
>
>> > > 
>Ltru@ietf.org
>
>
>> > > 
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > _______________________________________________
>
>
>> > Ltru mailing list
>
>
>> > 
>Ltru@ietf.org
>
>
>> > 
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > --
>
>
>> > Mark
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> --
>
>
>> Mark _______________________________________________
>
>
>> Ltru mailing list
>
>
>> 
>Ltru@ietf.org
>
>
>> 
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>Mark
>


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Your use of
&quot;Taiwanese&quot; is a bit confusing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>If =
you are
saying Mandarin spoken in Taiwan.&nbsp; In that case, I would tag =
it:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>cmn-TW<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot;Taiwanese&quot;
is also a dialect and you can use &quot;min&quot;.&nbsp; Taiwanese =
Mandarin
would somewhat mean a mixture of Taiwanese and Mandarin?&nbsp; In that =
case I
think the tag should be (multiple langauges):<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>min,cmn<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Is =
it
possible to do cmn-min?&nbsp; It would seem a bit strange but I can =
appreciate
the possibility, i.e. that the content is a mixture of Taiwanese and
Mandarin.&nbsp; It is quite common in Taiwan I understand.&nbsp; I mean =
mixing
it within sentences and not just some content with distinct portions of
Taiwanese and Mandarin.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Overall, I
feel the description for Chinese in the document is acceptable.&nbsp; =
The example
of &quot;zh-cmn&quot; and &quot;zh-cmn-hant&quot; should be updated to
&quot;cmn&quot; and &quot;cmn-hant&quot; I feel.&nbsp; I however have a
different question which I apologize might create even more confusion =
(and
potentially a stupid question)... but nevertheless, how would I tag =
Pinyin
content (a written form of Chinese using English or Latin =
alphabets)?&nbsp;
Should it be: en-cmn or latn-cmn or should it be cmn-en or =
cmn-latn?&nbsp; If
people feel it is the latter case, then defintely zh-cmn should always =
be
cmn.&nbsp; However, if en-cmn or latn-cmn makes sense, then perhaps =
there is
value for zh-cmn to distinguish between it and =
en-cmn.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Edmon<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ltru-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mark Davis<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in =
3066bis<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I don't think the =
average
developer will understand the distinction you've made below. We should =
have a
clear recommendation for languages and dialects formerly encompassed by
&quot;zh&quot;.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
I need a tag for spoken Taiwanese Mandarin. I mention that it's spoken =
only
because I won't consider using any tag with a script in it. I do not =
believe
the members of this list will agree on what the best tag for this =
content is.
If this list can't agree on the preferred tag, I fear we've done =
something
wrong.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Karen Broome<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#990099'>-----mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
wrote: -----<br>
<br>
</span>&gt;To:&nbsp;Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
&gt;From:&nbsp;&quot;Mark&nbsp;Davis&quot;&nbsp;&lt;mark.davis@icu-projec=
t.org&gt;<br>
&gt;Sent&nbsp;by:&nbsp;mark.edward.davis@gmail.com<br>
&gt;Date:&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;07:47PM<br>
&gt;cc:&nbsp;&quot;LTRU&nbsp;Working&nbsp;Group&quot;&nbsp;&lt;ltru@ietf.=
org&gt;<br>
&gt;Subject:&nbsp;Re:&nbsp;[Ltru]&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;really&nbsp;confused&nbsp=
;by&nbsp;chinese&nbsp;in&nbsp;3066bis<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I'm obviously not making myself clear, because you are leaping =
to<br>
&gt;conclusions&nbsp;that&nbsp;are&nbsp;not&nbsp;founded&nbsp;in&nbsp;wha=
t&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;saying.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I&nbsp;am&nbsp;NOT&nbsp;saying&nbsp;that&nbsp;zh&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbs=
p;same&nbsp;as&nbsp;cmn.<br>
&gt;&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;not&nbsp;changing&nbsp;the&nbsp;semantics&nbsp;of&nbsp=
;'zh'&nbsp;at&nbsp;all*.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;What&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;saying&nbsp;is:&nbsp;<br>
&gt;although&nbsp;they&nbsp;are&nbsp;semantically&nbsp;distinct,<br>
&gt; my advice to most users would be that in practice for backwards<br>
&gt;compatibility&nbsp;in&nbsp;programs&nbsp;they&nbsp;are&nbsp;best&nbsp=
;off&nbsp;treated&nbsp;as&nbsp;synonyms.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Maybe it would be clearer with another example. I might say, for<br>
&gt;practical purposes on input in a particular program the value<br>
&gt;$99.999999 is best handled as though it were synonymous with $100 =
(eg<br>
&gt;rounding). That doesn't mean I think that these two numbers are<br>
&gt;synonyms&nbsp;--&nbsp;far&nbsp;from&nbsp;it!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mark<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;* (Although, frankly, the few words of identification given in =
ISO<br>
&gt;639-1<br>
&gt;and&nbsp;-2&nbsp;are&nbsp;often&nbsp;very&nbsp;fuzzy,&nbsp;as&nbsp;we=
've&nbsp;seen&nbsp;time&nbsp;and&nbsp;time&nbsp;again.&nbsp;Many<br>
&gt;people,&nbsp;for&nbsp;example,&nbsp;consider&nbsp;Swiss&nbsp;German&n=
bsp;a&nbsp;kind&nbsp;of&nbsp;German.&nbsp;And<br>
&gt;&quot;German&quot;&nbsp;was&nbsp;all&nbsp;it&nbsp;said&nbsp;for&nbsp;=
'de'&nbsp;in&nbsp;ISO&nbsp;639-1.&nbsp;So&nbsp;it&nbsp;would&nbsp;be<br>
&gt;perfectly natural for people to think that Swiss German would be<br>
&gt;de-CH,&nbsp;just&nbsp;like&nbsp;Austrian&nbsp;German&nbsp;is&nbsp;de-=
AT.&nbsp;)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;On&nbsp;Fri,&nbsp;May&nbsp;2,&nbsp;2008&nbsp;at&nbsp;6:26&nbsp;PM,&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&lt;<br>
&gt;Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;As much as we'd like to rewrite history, it's a semantic change.<br>
&gt;&nbsp;There&nbsp;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;a whole list of grandfathered tags such as zh-min, zh-yue, =
zh-hakka,<br>
&gt;and<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;others that will make no sense after this new semantic goes into<br>
&gt;effect<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;with RFC 4646bis. &nbsp;You've not only changed the semantic of
&quot;zh&quot;,<br>
&gt;&nbsp;you've<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;made all of those tags senseless as well. &nbsp;The very existence =
of<br>
&gt;those<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;tags&nbsp;that&nbsp;identify&nbsp;other&nbsp;Chinese&nbsp;languages&n=
bsp;indicates&nbsp;to&nbsp;me&nbsp;that&nbsp;the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;registrants of those tags, myself included, did NOT interpret
&quot;zh&quot; to<br>
&gt;mean<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mandarin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;When I look at this page, I can see that John Cowan, Clay =
Compton,<br>
&gt;Kai-hus<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Tai, and I all registered tags that assume a more generic =
definition<br>
&gt;of<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&quot;zh&quot;. This seems to contradict your statement that =
&quot;zh&quot;
has always<br>
&gt;meant<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mandarin in practice. Do you assume that these tag registrants<br>
&gt;registered<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;these&nbsp;tags&nbsp;and&nbsp;then&nbsp;never&nbsp;put&nbsp;them&nbsp=
;to&nbsp;use?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tags<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Looking at the registrations you made, it appears possible that =
you<br>
&gt;were<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;operating under this assumption, but I'm not so sure this is the =
case<br>
&gt;with<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;every&nbsp;user.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Karen&nbsp;Broome<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;ltru-bounces@ietf.org<br>
&gt;&nbsp;wrote&nbsp;on&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;03:19:31&nbsp;PM:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;On&nbsp;Fri,&nbsp;May&nbsp;2,&nbsp;2008&nbsp;at&nbsp;2:15&n=
bsp;PM,&nbsp;&lt;<br>
&gt;Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Comments.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;mark.edward.davis@gmail.com<br>
&gt;&nbsp;wrote&nbsp;on&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;01:27:15&nbsp;PM:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;I&nbsp;see&nbsp;it&nbsp;a&nbsp;bit&nbsp;different=
ly:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written =
(eg<br>
&gt;cmn-HK)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;yue&nbsp;means&nbsp;specifically&nbsp;Cantonese&n=
bsp;Chinese,&nbsp;spoken&nbsp;or&nbsp;written&nbsp;(eg<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;yue-HK)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus =
encompassing<br>
&gt;Mandarin,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese,&nbsp;and&nbsp;others.&nbsp;It&nbsp;thu=
s&nbsp;is&nbsp;formally&nbsp;correct&nbsp;to&nbsp;tag&nbsp;either<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with 'zh'. =
(eg<br>
&gt;zh-HK).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;So&nbsp;far,&nbsp;so&nbsp;good.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, =
'zh'<br>
&gt;has<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;long&nbsp;been&nbsp;used&nbsp;to&nbsp;mean&nbsp;M=
andarin&nbsp;only.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Disagree.&nbsp;It&nbsp;was&nbsp;simply&nbsp;the&nbsp;most&n=
bsp;specific&nbsp;tag&nbsp;one&nbsp;could&nbsp;use&nbsp;for&nbsp;the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Mandarin at the time. That doesn't mean the tag ever meant<br>
&gt;&quot;Mandarin&quot;&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin =
as<br>
&gt;this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;tag<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;has&nbsp;been&nbsp;used&nbsp;more&nbsp;often&nbsp;than&nbsp=
;zh-Hant.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I stand by what I said: it has long been used to mean just<br>
&gt;Mandarin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; If you make a request using 'zh' to products from Google,<br>
&gt;Microsoft,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Apple,&nbsp;Sun,&nbsp;and&nbsp;so&nbsp;on,&nbsp;in&nbsp;pra=
ctice&nbsp;that&nbsp;does&nbsp;not&nbsp;mean:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is =
Mandarin<br>
&gt;or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese&nbsp;or&nbsp;Hakka.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Instead,&nbsp;in&nbsp;practice,&nbsp;it&nbsp;means:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Give&nbsp;me&nbsp;Mandarin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;In&nbsp;practice,&nbsp;'zh'&nbsp;and&nbsp;'cmn'&n=
bsp;are&nbsp;best&nbsp;treated&nbsp;as&nbsp;synonyms<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; OK, so you're changing the semantics of the tag in practice. =
I<br>
&gt;don't<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;think<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; there can be any other interpretation of that statement. I =
think<br>
&gt;this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate =
in<br>
&gt;this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;working&nbsp;group.&nbsp;Where&nbsp;else&nbsp;do&nbsp;we&nb=
sp;give&nbsp;users&nbsp;a&nbsp;choice&nbsp;as&nbsp;far&nbsp;as&nbsp;which=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; language subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they =
can't<br>
&gt;use<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&quot;eng&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; but that they have a choice of &quot;zh&quot; or =
&quot;cmn&quot; when
it comes to<br>
&gt;Mandarin?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is =
preferred<br>
&gt;over<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;'cmn'.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be =
tagged<br>
&gt;with<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;'zh'<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Your average developer just gets a language requirement and =
wants<br>
&gt;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;match<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their =
need<br>
&gt;for<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;backwards&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;and&nbsp;multiple&nbsp;la=
nguage&nbsp;modes&nbsp;as&nbsp;part&nbsp;of&nbsp;this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;task.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This wasn't something that needed to be considered in the =
past.<br>
&gt;&nbsp;Forcing<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to =
use is<br>
&gt;not<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and =
could<br>
&gt;even<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;prevent&nbsp;the&nbsp;adoption&nbsp;and&nbsp;utility&nbsp;o=
f&nbsp;this&nbsp;work.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Personally,&nbsp;if&nbsp;someone&nbsp;in&nbsp;my&nbsp;compa=
ny&nbsp;came&nbsp;to&nbsp;me&nbsp;and&nbsp;said&nbsp;&quot;what<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;should&nbsp;I&nbsp;use&quot;,&nbsp;I&nbsp;would&nbsp;uncond=
itionally&nbsp;say&nbsp;&quot;zh&quot;.&nbsp;If&nbsp;someone&nbsp;were&nb=
sp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; hand us 'cmn-CN', I'd say, map that first thing to =
&quot;zh-CN&quot;.<br>
&gt;Backward<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;dominates.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The important thing for us is to get the *new* capability =
offered<br>
&gt;by<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&quot;yue&quot;,&nbsp;etc.,&nbsp;not&nbsp;to&nbsp;make&nbsp=
;a&nbsp;distinction&nbsp;between&nbsp;'zh'&nbsp;and&nbsp;'cmn'&nbsp;that<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;would&nbsp;be&nbsp;extremely&nbsp;painful&nbsp;to&nbsp;impl=
ement&nbsp;and&nbsp;return&nbsp;no&nbsp;extra&nbsp;value<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;for&nbsp;our&nbsp;users.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; If you are in an isolated, new environment where you didn't =
have<br>
&gt;any<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;backwards&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;issues,&nbsp;it'd&nbsp;be=
&nbsp;fine&nbsp;to&nbsp;make&nbsp;a&nbsp;distinction<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;between&nbsp;'zh'&nbsp;and&nbsp;'cmn'.&nbsp;Those&nbsp;envi=
ronments&nbsp;are&nbsp;going&nbsp;to&nbsp;probably&nbsp;be<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;rather&nbsp;rare.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Karen&nbsp;Broome<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;On&nbsp;Fri,&nbsp;May&nbsp;2,&nbsp;2008&nbsp;at&n=
bsp;12:25&nbsp;PM,&nbsp;&lt;<br>
&gt;Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;It&nbsp;seems&nbsp;like&nbsp;we're&nbsp;suggestin=
g&nbsp;the&nbsp;following:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;1)&nbsp;The&nbsp;shortest&nbsp;tag&nbsp;for&nbsp;=
written&nbsp;Mandarin&nbsp;is&nbsp;&quot;zh&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is &quot;cmn&quot; =
unless
of course<br>
&gt;you<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;feel<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; like using &quot;zh&quot; (which, psst, might be a good =
idea
because that's<br>
&gt;how<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;it's<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by =
the<br>
&gt;way,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;you<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;can&nbsp;also&nbsp;use&nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn&quot;&nb=
sp;or&nbsp;&quot;zh-guoyu.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- =
if<br>
&gt;extlang<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- =
should<br>
&gt;be<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&quot;cmn.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;If&nbsp;it's&nbsp;not&nbsp;&quot;cmn,&quot;&nbsp;=
you've&nbsp;changed&nbsp;the&nbsp;semantic&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;&quot;zh=
&quot;&nbsp;tag&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; disinclude &quot;yue.&quot; &nbsp;With extlang, you have
&quot;zh-cmn&quot; and &quot;zh-yue&quot;<br>
&gt;and<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; semantics of &quot;zh&quot; remain consistent. The =
argument that
an<br>
&gt;overwhelming<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; number of documents tagged with &quot;zh&quot; are =
Mandarin does
not sway<br>
&gt;me.&nbsp;I<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;have<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese&nbsp;subtitles.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; There are differences of opinion on how I should =
accurately tag<br>
&gt;my<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there =
is<br>
&gt;something<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;in<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft&nbsp;that&nbsp;is&nbsp;ambiguous.<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO =
calls<br>
&gt;Chinese<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;are<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they =
are<br>
&gt;languages.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;This<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear =
recommendation on<br>
&gt;the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;tag&nbsp;to&nbsp;use&nbsp;for&nbsp;these&nbsp;lan=
guages.&nbsp;I&nbsp;agree&nbsp;with&nbsp;Shawn&nbsp;that&nbsp;there&nbsp;=
is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;something<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;wrong&nbsp;here.&nbsp;I&nbsp;just&nbsp;wish&nbsp;=
I&nbsp;could&nbsp;better&nbsp;express&nbsp;my&nbsp;reservations.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Karen&nbsp;Broome<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;ltru-bounces@ietf.org<br>
&gt;&nbsp;wrote&nbsp;on&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;12:03:59&nbsp;PM:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Shawn&nbsp;Steele&nbsp;scripsit:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.
&nbsp;I've been out<br>
&gt;for&nbsp;a<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;few<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;weeks&nbsp;so&nbsp;I&nbsp;may=
&nbsp;have&nbsp;missed&nbsp;some&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;discussion.&nbsp;&=
nbsp;The&nbsp;draft<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;seems<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;contradictory,&nbsp;but&nbsp;=
with&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft&nbsp;as&nbsp;my&nbsp;only&nbsp;guide,&nbsp;my<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;interpretation<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;of&nbsp;what&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;re=
ading&nbsp;now&nbsp;for&nbsp;Chinese&nbsp;is:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; I assume that when you say &quot;3066bis&quot; you =
actually
mean<br>
&gt;&quot;4646bis&quot;,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;and<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;are<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;asking&nbsp;about&nbsp;the&nbsp;meaning=
&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;new&nbsp;draft&nbsp;rather&nbsp;than&nbsp;of&nbsp;=
the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;existing<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;RFC.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;*&nbsp;zh&nbsp;should&nbsp;be=
&nbsp;pretty&nbsp;much&nbsp;assumed&nbsp;to&nbsp;be&nbsp;Mandarin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;*&nbsp;yue&nbsp;should&nbsp;b=
e&nbsp;used&nbsp;if&nbsp;you&nbsp;want&nbsp;Cantonese.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Yes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say =
&quot;don't
just assume<br>
&gt;this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Mandarin,&nbsp;it&nbsp;really=
&nbsp;is&nbsp;Mandarin.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new =
material<br>
&gt;will&nbsp;be<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;cmn&quot;. &nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn&quot; becomes a
grandfathered form equivalent to<br>
&gt;&quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;I&nbsp;get&nbsp;this&nbsp;fro=
m&nbsp;the&nbsp;end&nbsp;of&nbsp;4.1&nbsp;(choice)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice=
<br>
&gt;:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;In general, use the most specific =
subtag
to form the<br>
&gt;language<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag =
has
been<br>
&gt;historically<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; used to denote a dominant encompassed =
language,
it SHOULD<br>
&gt;be<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;used<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; in place of the subtag specific to that
encompassed<br>
&gt;language<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;unless<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; it is necessary to clearly distinguish =
the
macrolanguage as<br>
&gt;a<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;whole<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;from&nbsp;that&nb=
sp;enclosed&nbsp;dominant&nbsp;language&nbsp;variety.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;So&nbsp;this&nbsp;sounds&nbsp=
;like&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;supposed&nbsp;to&nbsp;use&nbsp;&quot;zh&quot;&nbsp;in=
stead&nbsp;of&nbsp;&quot;cmn&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&quot;unless<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;necessary&quo=
t;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, provided that &quot;pretty much assumed&quot; =
does not
mean &quot;must be<br>
&gt;used<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;for&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;There&nbsp;are&nbsp;occasional&nbsp;rea=
sons&nbsp;not&nbsp;to&nbsp;use&nbsp;it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Earlier&nbsp;in&nbsp;2.&nbsp;=
of&nbsp;4.1&nbsp;it&nbsp;says:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;When labeling content that is =
unwritten
(such as a<br>
&gt;recording&nbsp;of<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;human<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;speech),&nbsp;the=
&nbsp;script&nbsp;subtag&nbsp;should&nbsp;not&nbsp;be&nbsp;used,&nbsp;eve=
n&nbsp;if&nbsp;the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;language<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; is customarily written in several =
scripts. Thus
the<br>
&gt;subtitles&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;a<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;movie&nbsp;might&=
nbsp;use&nbsp;the&nbsp;tag&nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn-Hant&quot;&nbsp;(Chinese,&nb=
sp;Mandarin,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Traditional<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;script),&nbsp;but=
&nbsp;the&nbsp;audio&nbsp;track&nbsp;for&nbsp;the&nbsp;same&nbsp;language=
&nbsp;would&nbsp;be<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;tagged<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn&quot=
;.&nbsp;&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Oops,&nbsp;that&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&nbs=
p;fixed&nbsp;to&nbsp;remove&nbsp;the&nbsp;&quot;zh-&quot;&nbsp;part.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for =
other<br>
&gt;places<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;where<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;zh-&nbsp;or&nbsp;ar-&nbsp;might&nbsp;ap=
pear&nbsp;and&nbsp;see&nbsp;if&nbsp;they&nbsp;are&nbsp;now&nbsp;correct?<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So apparently it is &quot;necessary&quot; to use =
a tag
for Mandarin in<br>
&gt;some<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; cases. &nbsp;This example uses an irregular
grandfathered tag<br>
&gt;though,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;I&nbsp;don't&nbsp;get&nbsp;th=
at.&nbsp;&nbsp;This&nbsp;section&nbsp;is&nbsp;&quot;choice&quot;,&nbsp;pr=
esumably&nbsp;I<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;shouldn't<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;choose&nbsp;a&nbsp;grandfathe=
red&nbsp;tag.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Right.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Later&nbsp;we&nbsp;have:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;In particular, the Chinese family =
of
languages call for<br>
&gt;special<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; consideration. Because the written form =
is very
similar for<br>
&gt;most<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a =
macrolanguage
(and<br>
&gt;because<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; historically subtags for the various =
encompassed
languages<br>
&gt;were<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;not<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;available),&nbsp;=
languages&nbsp;such&nbsp;as&nbsp;'yue'&nbsp;(Cantonese)&nbsp;have<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;historically<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; used either 'zh' or a tag (now =
grandfathered) beginning<br>
&gt;with<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; 'zh'. This means that macrolanguage =
information
can be<br>
&gt;usefully<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; applied when searching for content or =
when
providing<br>
&gt;fallbacks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;in<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; language negotiation. For example, the
information that<br>
&gt;'yue'<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;has<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in =
the
Lookup<br>
&gt;algorithm&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;fallback&nbsp;fro=
m&nbsp;a&nbsp;request&nbsp;for&nbsp;&quot;yue-Hans-CN&quot;&nbsp;to&nbsp;=
&quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;without<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; losing the script and region information =
(even
though the<br>
&gt;user<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;did<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;not&nbsp;specify&=
nbsp;&quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot;&nbsp;in&nbsp;their&nbsp;request).&nbsp;&quot;=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; This is very different from the Mandarin =
description in
4.1<br>
&gt;(2.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Not really. &nbsp;The core idea is that the =
&quot;zh&quot;
tag is<br>
&gt;vague/inclusive<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;and<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;can<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; be used for any variety of Chinese. &nbsp;However, =
most
spoken<br>
&gt;Chinese&nbsp;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;in<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;fact<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact
Mandarin,<br>
&gt;so<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;there<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; a tendency to assume that &quot;zh&quot; simply means
Mandarin. &nbsp;In order<br>
&gt;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;benefit<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; people who must distinguish, the tag &quot;cmn&quot; =
is
introduced to<br>
&gt;mean<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&quot;specifically<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Mandarin,&nbsp;excluding&nbsp;all&nbsp;=
non-Mandarin&nbsp;varieties&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely =
certain
what<br>
&gt;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;expected.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been
discussed and<br>
&gt;I<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;missed<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;it,&nbsp;but&nbsp;if&nbsp;I&n=
bsp;only&nbsp;have&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft&nbsp;as&nbsp;context&nbsp;I&nbsp;w=
ould&nbsp;have&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;assume:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * zh =3D=3D cmn =3D=3D zh-cmn and I need to do =
lookup for each
of<br>
&gt;those<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to =
look
at zh<br>
&gt;during<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;lookup.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn =
=3D=3D zh-cmn<br>
&gt;instead.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese&nbsp;might&nbsp;be&nbsp;any&n=
bsp;of&nbsp;zh,&nbsp;zh-yue,&nbsp;or&nbsp;yue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Can someone clarify what the expectation is? =
&nbsp;I
would guess<br>
&gt;that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;by<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used
statement<br>
&gt;that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;*&nbsp;Only&nbsp;zh&nbsp;shou=
ld&nbsp;be&nbsp;used&nbsp;to&nbsp;represent&nbsp;Mandarin,&nbsp;and&nbsp;=
that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Not so. &nbsp;&quot;zh&quot; should be used unless =
there is
a compelling<br>
&gt;reason&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;use<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * only yue should be used to represent =
Cantonese, which<br>
&gt;optional<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;fallback&nbsp;lookup&nbsp;to&nbsp;zh&nb=
sp;if&nbsp;desired.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Yes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;--<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Real&nbsp;FORTRAN&nbsp;programmers&nbsp=
;can&nbsp;program&nbsp;FORTRAN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;John&nbsp;Cowan<br>=

&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;in&nbsp;any&nbsp;language.&nbsp;&nbsp;-=
-Allen&nbsp;Brown&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;cowan@ccil.org<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;_______________________________________=
________<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;list<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;Ltru@ietf.org<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;_______________________________________________<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;list<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;Ltru@ietf.org<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;--<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Mark<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;--<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Mark&nbsp;_______________________________________________<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;list<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;Ltru@ietf.org<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;--&nbsp;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mark<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

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Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 08:05:58 +0200
From: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
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To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Mark Davis 2008-05-03 04.47:
> I'm obviously not making myself clear, because you are leaping to
> conclusions that are not founded in what I'm saying.
>
> *I am NOT saying that zh is the same as cmn.* I'm not changing the semantics
> of 'zh' at all*.
> What I'm saying is: *although they are semantically distinct,* my advice to
> most users would be that in practice for backwards compatibility in programs
> they are best off treated as synonyms.
>   

I do understand how you can offer users such an advice. Information, 
yes. Advice, no. I've never seen an interface where I can opt to select 
two languages as synonyms. In an applicaiton, for example a browser, one 
tag will come before another - hierarchy can't be avoided.

For the majority language, it is very safe to place the most spesific 
tag first. Thus the tag that means Mandarin should be first.

The more spesific you can be, the more targeted can you be in the next 
round.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>, "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com"
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Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 23:19:59 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 4646bis (was my
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 4646bis (was my
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> I stand by what I said: it has long been used to mean just Mandarin. If y=
ou make a

> request using 'zh' to products from Google, Microsoft, Apple, Sun, and so=
 on, in

> practice that does not mean:

>     Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is Mandarin or =
Cantonese or Hakka.

> Instead, in practice, it means:

>     Give me Mandarin.

I would disagree (for Microsoft products).  We don't provide any other code=
 (easily) to the end-user, so a Chinese speaker in HK would have to request=
 zh-HK, regardless of whether they really wanted Cantonese or Mandarin.  I =
will happily recognize that our localization is Mandarin and that most of t=
he content you'd get from a search would be Mandarin, but that doesn't mean=
 that we meant Mandarin.  In fact we end up saying "Chinese (Traditional)" =
in the UI, so we're pretty vague.



> I am NOT saying that zh is the same as cmn. I'm not changing the semantic=
s of 'zh' at all*.
> What I'm saying is: although they are semantically distinct, my advice to=
 most users

> would be that in practice for backwards compatibility in programs they ar=
e best off treated

> as synonyms.



That seems to be quibbling a bit.  If you tell developers/users to treat th=
em as synonyms, especially if you also say "use zh for back compat", then t=
he net result is that they are synonyms with no special meaning.  If I alwa=
ys use cmn as an alias for zh and zh as an alias for cmn, then they will be=
have identically.  If they end up behaving identically, then there's no poi=
nt in having distinct codes.  Assuming that I really, really need them to b=
e distinct for my application or data for some reason, then I won't be able=
 to because anything I interoperate with is going to assume that they are i=
dentical because of the recommendation.



Frankly, its easiest for me to just say "zh" =3D=3D Mandarin.  I haven't fi=
gured out how I'm going to do Windows & .Net resource fallback and user loc=
ale settings if the preference gets changed from "zh" to "cmn".  cmn-HK wou=
ld still need to find zh-HK or zh-Hant resources.  New apps would also need=
 to find cmn tagged resources even when the user UI language was zh-HK.  So=
 it would seem that I'm sort of stuck treating them as aliases for each oth=
er.



>From the discussion and the draft it seems that there're a few suggestions/=
interpretations:



* Use zh and cmn as aliases for each other.  This seems silly to me and jus=
t maintenance headache.  I include the zh=3D=3Dcmn 99.99999% of the time ca=
se here because in practice the other 0.00001% isn't going to be able to sh=
ake the aliasing.



* Just use zh and grandfather cmn, that way at least we have a consistent, =
if a tad odd, behavior.



* Use zh for "Chinese" and cmn for "Mandarin".  As I said, the migration se=
ems pretty tough, but at least the meaning is clear.



* Use zh for Chinese and zh-cmn for Chinese (Mandarin).  I realize we alrea=
dy decided against this form, but perhaps its worth reconsidering.  Then th=
e fallback is clear, as are the different use cases.  Migration is still a =
pain, but there's a chance that some of my back-compat cases would accident=
ally solve themselves when apps do RFC 4647 style fallback.  (There's no ch=
ance of existing apps figuring out that cmn should consider zh as a fallbac=
k.)



Whatever is chosen, I think the RFC MUST ;-) be explicit.  Particularly if =
it is recommending that sometimes Mandarin should be tagged one way, but so=
metimes it could be tagged another way.



- Shawn

--_000_C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561554BEA6ANAEXMSGC116re_
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<html dir=3D"ltr"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<meta content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6001.18023" name=3D"GENERATOR">
<style title=3D"owaParaStyle">P {
	MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px
}
</style>
</head>
<body ocsi=3D"x">
<p dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; I stand by what I said: it has long been <i>used</i> to=
 mean just Mandarin. If you make a</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt;</font>&nbsp;request usin=
g 'zh' to products from Google, Microsoft, Apple, Sun, and so on,
<i>in</i></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><i><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt;</font>&nbsp;practice<=
/i> that does <i><b>not</b></i> mean:
<br>
<i></i></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><i><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; </font>Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is Mandarin=
 or Cantonese or Hakka.</i><br>
<br>
&gt; Instead, <i>in practice</i>, it means:<br>
<br>
<i>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Give me Mandarin</i>.<br>
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">I would disagree (for Microso=
ft products).&nbsp; We don't provide any other code (easily) to the end-use=
r, so a Chinese speaker in HK would have to request zh-HK, regardless of wh=
ether they really wanted Cantonese or Mandarin.&nbsp;
 I will happily recognize that our localization is Mandarin and that most o=
f the content you'd get from a search would be Mandarin, but that doesn't m=
ean that we meant Mandarin.&nbsp; In fact we end up saying &quot;Chinese (T=
raditional)&quot; in the UI, so we're pretty vague.</font></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><strong><em>&gt; I am NOT saying that zh is the same as cmn.=
</em></strong> I'm not changing the semantics of 'zh' at all*.<br>
&gt; What I'm saying is: <i>although they are semantically distinct,</i> my=
 advice to most users</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt;</font>&nbsp;would be tha=
t in practice for backwards compatibility in programs they are best off tre=
ated</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt;</font>&nbsp;as synonyms.=
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">That seems to be quibbling a =
bit.&nbsp; If you tell developers/users to treat them as synonyms, especial=
ly if you also&nbsp;say &quot;use zh for back compat&quot;, then the net re=
sult is that they&nbsp;are synonyms with no special meaning.&nbsp;
 If I always use cmn as an alias for zh and zh as an alias for cmn, then&nb=
sp;they will behave identically.&nbsp; If they end up behaving identically,=
 then there's no point in having distinct codes.&nbsp; Assuming that I real=
ly, really need them to be distinct for my application
 or data for some reason, then I won't be able to because anything I intero=
perate with is going to assume that they are identical because of the recom=
mendation.</font></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">Frankly, its easiest for me t=
o just say &quot;zh&quot; =3D=3D Mandarin.&nbsp; I haven't figured out how =
I'm going to do Windows &amp; .Net resource fallback and user locale settin=
gs&nbsp;if the preference gets changed from &quot;zh&quot; to &quot;cmn&quo=
t;.&nbsp; cmn-HK
 would still need to find zh-HK or zh-Hant resources.&nbsp; New apps would =
also need to find cmn tagged resources even when the user&nbsp;UI language =
was zh-HK.&nbsp; So it would seem that I'm sort of stuck treating them as a=
liases for each other.</font></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">From the discussion and the d=
raft it seems that there're a few suggestions/interpretations:</font></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">* Use zh and cmn&nbsp;as alia=
ses for each other.&nbsp; This seems silly to me and just&nbsp;maintenance =
headache.&nbsp; I include the zh=3D=3Dcmn 99.99999% of the time case here b=
ecause in practice the other 0.00001% isn't going to be able
 to shake the aliasing.</font></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">* Just use zh and grandfather=
 cmn, that way at least we have a consistent, if a tad odd,&nbsp;behavior.<=
/font></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">* Use zh for &quot;Chinese&qu=
ot; and&nbsp;cmn for &quot;Mandarin&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;As I said, the migrat=
ion&nbsp;seems pretty tough, but at least the meaning is clear.</font></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">* Use&nbsp;zh for Chinese and=
 zh-cmn for Chinese (Mandarin).&nbsp; I realize we already decided against =
this form, but perhaps its worth reconsidering.&nbsp; Then the fallback is =
clear, as are the different use cases.&nbsp; Migration is
 still a pain, but there's a chance that some of my back-compat cases would=
 accidentally solve themselves when apps do RFC 4647 style fallback.&nbsp; =
(There's no chance of existing apps figuring out that cmn should consider z=
h as a fallback.)</font></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">Whatever is chosen, I think t=
he RFC MUST ;-)&nbsp;be explicit.&nbsp; Particularly if it is recommending =
that sometimes Mandarin should be tagged one way, but sometimes it could be=
 tagged another way.</font></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">- Shawn</font></p>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Extlang issues
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Randy Presuhn 2008-05-02 20.07:
> However, to address the cases you cite, wouldn't it be simpler and
> more robust (and also more likely to give these users exactly what
> they want) for them to simply put "no" / "zh" as their second choice
> in their lists of language preferences?
>   =


To get 'no' inserted as second choice for Nynorsk as well as for Bokm=E5l =

users, would be right, in the current circumstances. It should be added =

as default from the application developer/localizer.

I think truncation fallback could work better than current situation for =

most authors,  but perhaps be less simple to customize for (semi) server =

experts.

> Truncation fallback is at best a helpful heuristic, and can fail even for
> seemingly easy cases.  My sense of the discussion on this list has
> been that though there may be macrolanguage cases where truncation
> fallback happens work nicely, that this is not generally the case,
> and that the failure cases are too numerous to justify organizing the
> specification around the few cases where it can be made to "do the
> right thing".
>   =


Is there an example of where it does not work well? And why are you only =

having macrolanguages in mind? Truncation fallback is what takes place =

when en-GB falls back to en. And that works well?

> I think the reason it's so ugly is that what the appropriate fallback
> language(s) will be for a particular language is not a matter of genetic
> relationships between them, but rather has to do with the history and
> politics of the speaker communities of the languages, and the extent
> to which one can legitimately assume that members of a particular
> community will have some competance in the fallback language.
>   =


Picking the default fallback languages should be part of the =

localisation process, therefore.

And perhaps those fallback languages should be possible to link to =

domains? E.g. a Finland-Swedish user would accept Finnish as fallback =

under (most of) the .fi domain, but not when visiting e.g. Google. (And =

some CMS-es are almost too language sensitive. I once got out-of-context =

Nynorsk menus when visiting the web site of a US university.)

John Cowan 2008-05-02 21.18:
> Furthermore, servers tend to have a simplistic model of tags in which
> rules like "if nn is lacking, fall back to no" cannot be specified,
> and a simplistic model of content negotiation where each resource is
> associated with at most one language tag.
>   =


Right. Though, you can associate (in Apache) a file with several =

languages if you add several corresponding language extensions to it.

> These are IMHO the real issues here, and unfortunately they are out of
> scope for us.
>   =


Solving those technical things could ge us a long way.

Extlang tags would, I think, lead to more *legitimate* use of the =

macrolanguage tags ('no', 'zh') than would a regime where there are =

"independent" language tags. At the same time, to actually use the =

spesific tag would, with extlang tags, not be so dangerous as it can be =

without them.
-- =

leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Leif Halvard Silli 2008-05-03 08.05:
> I do understand [...]

Sorry. Do NOT understand ...
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat May  3 11:29:37 2008
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Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit:

> I need a tag for spoken Taiwanese Mandarin. I mention that it's spoken
> only because I won't consider using any tag with a script in it. I do
> not believe the members of this list will agree on what the best tag
> for this content is.  If this list can't agree on the preferred tag,
> I fear we've done something wrong.

I said zh-TW was appropriate for that function, particularly when the
context eliminates the possibility that zh-TW is being used to represent
written language.  No one has contradicted me yet.

-- 
Not to perambulate                 John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
    the corridors                  http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
during the hours of repose
    in the boots of ascension.       --Sign in Austrian ski-resort hotel
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Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 20:21:09 -0400
From: "Ira McDonald" <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>, "Ira McDonald" <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Hi,

The universe is not *just* a web browser.

Karen is tagging spoken languages in audio media (among other things).

Printer vendors and vendors of *every* other kind of network-connected
product are tagging written (and increasingly spoken) languages for their
local console and remote (non-browser) interfaces.

Truncation fallback has been around as long as language tags.  Developers
who aren't language experts are going to continue to usually use it.

"zh-cmn" fallback to "zh" would have worked (more or less) in most software.

"cmn" fallback to "zh" is NOT going to work in most software in the future
(because it depends on "and then a miracle happens" logic).

Sticking scripts into language tags *in that location* is still a lousy ide=
a,
as Karen's comments make clear.

RFC 4646 had problems - RFC 4646bis has bigger problems.

Even if miraculously we could retrain/re-educate all the software
developers and content developers, we can *never* accomplish
that with all the poor end users on the planet.

Cheers,
- Ira (now consulting at Samsung Advanced Printing Systems Lab)


-- =

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
email: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
winter:
 579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176
 734-944-0094
summer:
 PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
 906-494-2434

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 6:11 PM, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> wrote:
> Edmon Chung <edmon at afilias dot info> wrote:
>
>  > Is it possible to do cmn-min?
>
>  No.
>
>
>
>  --
>  Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
>  http://www.ewellic.org
>  http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
>  http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  =88
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ltru mailing list
>  Ltru@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 21:31:03 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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No, you cannot use "min" to refer to a Chinese language: "min" is a Philipp=
ine language, Minangkabau. The appropriate ID would be "nan".

It is not possible to create a tag "cmn-min" or "cmn-nan". You could, perha=
ps, tag content with two (or more) tags, application allowing: cmn; nan.

The tag "zh-Latn" would mean "Chinese written in Latin script", and could b=
e used for Chinese written in Pinyin. Similarly, "cmn-Latn" could be used t=
o indicate Mandarin written in Pinyin.

The tag "zh-cmn" is a valid, grandfathered tag, but with the publication of=
 4646bis "cmn" would also be valid and would have equivalent meaning; at th=
at point, "zh-cmn" should be deprecated in favour of "cmn". The difficult q=
uestion is whether authors should henceforth be recommended to use "cmn" fo=
r Mandarin content or continue to tag Chinese content (which usually is Man=
darin) as "zh".



Peter

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Edm=
on Chung
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 8:46 PM
To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; 'Mark Davis'
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

Your use of "Taiwanese" is a bit confusing.

If you are saying Mandarin spoken in Taiwan.  In that case, I would tag it:

cmn-TW

"Taiwanese" is also a dialect and you can use "min".  Taiwanese Mandarin wo=
uld somewhat mean a mixture of Taiwanese and Mandarin?  In that case I thin=
k the tag should be (multiple langauges):

min,cmn

Is it possible to do cmn-min?  It would seem a bit strange but I can apprec=
iate the possibility, i.e. that the content is a mixture of Taiwanese and M=
andarin.  It is quite common in Taiwan I understand.  I mean mixing it with=
in sentences and not just some content with distinct portions of Taiwanese =
and Mandarin.

Overall, I feel the description for Chinese in the document is acceptable. =
 The example of "zh-cmn" and "zh-cmn-hant" should be updated to "cmn" and "=
cmn-hant" I feel.  I however have a different question which I apologize mi=
ght create even more confusion (and potentially a stupid question)... but n=
evertheless, how would I tag Pinyin content (a written form of Chinese usin=
g English or Latin alphabets)?  Should it be: en-cmn or latn-cmn or should =
it be cmn-en or cmn-latn?  If people feel it is the latter case, then defin=
tely zh-cmn should always be cmn.  However, if en-cmn or latn-cmn makes sen=
se, then perhaps there is value for zh-cmn to distinguish between it and en=
-cmn.

Edmon




From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kar=
en_Broome@spe.sony.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:14 AM
To: Mark Davis
Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

I don't think the average developer will understand the distinction you've =
made below. We should have a clear recommendation for languages and dialect=
s formerly encompassed by "zh".

I need a tag for spoken Taiwanese Mandarin. I mention that it's spoken only=
 because I won't consider using any tag with a script in it. I do not belie=
ve the members of this list will agree on what the best tag for this conten=
t is. If this list can't agree on the preferred tag, I fear we've done some=
thing wrong.

Regards,

Karen Broome


-----mark.edward.davis@gmail.com wrote: -----

>To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
>From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
>Sent by: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
>Date: 05/02/2008 07:47PM
>cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
>Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
>I'm obviously not making myself clear, because you are leaping to
>conclusions that are not founded in what I'm saying.
>
>
>I am NOT saying that zh is the same as cmn.
> I'm not changing the semantics of 'zh' at all*.
>
>
>What I'm saying is:
>although they are semantically distinct,
> my advice to most users would be that in practice for backwards
>compatibility in programs they are best off treated as synonyms.
>
>
>Maybe it would be clearer with another example. I might say, for
>practical purposes on input in a particular program the value
>$99.999999 is best handled as though it were synonymous with $100 (eg
>rounding). That doesn't mean I think that these two numbers are
>synonyms -- far from it!
>
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>* (Although, frankly, the few words of identification given in ISO
>639-1
>and -2 are often very fuzzy, as we've seen time and time again. Many
>people, for example, consider Swiss German a kind of German. And
>"German" was all it said for 'de' in ISO 639-1. So it would be
>perfectly natural for people to think that Swiss German would be
>de-CH, just like Austrian German is de-AT. )
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:26 PM,  <
>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
>> wrote:
>
>
>As much as we'd like to rewrite history, it's a semantic change.
> There is
>
>
>a whole list of grandfathered tags such as zh-min, zh-yue, zh-hakka,
>and
>
>
>others that will make no sense after this new semantic goes into
>effect
>
>
>with RFC 4646bis.  You've not only changed the semantic of "zh",
> you've
>
>
>made all of those tags senseless as well.  The very existence of
>those
>
>
>tags that identify other Chinese languages indicates to me that the
>
>
>registrants of those tags, myself included, did NOT interpret "zh" to
>mean
>
>
>Mandarin.
>
>
>
>
>When I look at this page, I can see that John Cowan, Clay Compton,
>Kai-hus
>
>
>Tai, and I all registered tags that assume a more generic definition
>of
>
>
>"zh". This seems to contradict your statement that "zh" has always
>meant
>
>
>Mandarin in practice. Do you assume that these tag registrants
>registered
>
>
>these tags and then never put them to use?
>
>
>
>
>
>http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tags
>
>
>
>
>Looking at the registrations you made, it appears possible that you
>were
>
>
>operating under this assumption, but I'm not so sure this is the case
>with
>
>
>every user.
>
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>
>
>Karen Broome
>
>
>
>
>
>
>ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> wrote on 05/02/2008 03:19:31 PM:
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:15 PM, <
>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
>> wrote:
>
>
>> Comments.
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
> wrote on 05/02/2008 01:27:15 PM:
>
>
>>
>
>
>> > I see it a bit differently:
>
>
>> > cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (eg
>cmn-HK)
>
>
>> > yue means specifically Cantonese Chinese, spoken or written (eg
>
>
>yue-HK)
>
>
>> > zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing
>Mandarin,
>
>
>> > Cantonese, and others. It thus is formally correct to tag either
>
>
>> > Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with 'zh'. (eg
>zh-HK).
>
>
>
>
>> So far, so good.
>
>
>>
>
>
>> > However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, 'zh'
>has
>
>
>> > long been used to mean Mandarin only.
>
>
>
>
>> Disagree. It was simply the most specific tag one could use for the
>
>
>> Mandarin at the time. That doesn't mean the tag ever meant
>"Mandarin" to
>
>
>> anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as
>this
>
>
>tag
>
>
>> has been used more often than zh-Hant.
>
>
>>
>
>
>> I stand by what I said: it has long been used to mean just
>Mandarin.
>
>
>> If you make a request using 'zh' to products from Google,
>Microsoft,
>
>
>> Apple, Sun, and so on, in practice that does not mean:
>
>
>
>
>> Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is Mandarin
>or
>
>
>> Cantonese or Hakka.
>
>
>
>
>> Instead, in practice, it means:
>
>
>
>
>> Give me Mandarin.
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> > In practice, 'zh' and 'cmn' are best treated as synonyms
>
>
>
>
>> OK, so you're changing the semantics of the tag in practice. I
>don't
>
>
>think
>
>
>> there can be any other interpretation of that statement. I think
>this
>
>
>> subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate in
>this
>
>
>> working group. Where else do we give users a choice as far as which
>
>
>> language subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they can't
>use
>
>
>"eng"
>
>
>> but that they have a choice of "zh" or "cmn" when it comes to
>Mandarin?
>
>
>>
>
>
>> > Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is preferred
>over
>
>
>> 'cmn'.
>
>
>> > Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be tagged
>with
>
>
>> 'zh'
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> Your average developer just gets a language requirement and wants
>to
>
>
>match
>
>
>> it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their need
>for
>
>
>> backwards compatibility and multiple language modes as part of this
>
>
>task.
>
>
>> This wasn't something that needed to be considered in the past.
> Forcing
>
>
>> the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to use is
>not
>
>
>> likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and could
>even
>
>
>> prevent the adoption and utility of this work.
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> Personally, if someone in my company came to me and said "what
>
>
>> should I use", I would unconditionally say "zh". If someone were to
>
>
>> hand us 'cmn-CN', I'd say, map that first thing to "zh-CN".
>Backward
>
>
>> compatibility dominates.
>
>
>>
>
>
>> The important thing for us is to get the *new* capability offered
>by
>
>
>> "yue", etc., not to make a distinction between 'zh' and 'cmn' that
>
>
>> would be extremely painful to implement and return no extra value
>
>
>> for our users.
>
>
>>
>
>
>> If you are in an isolated, new environment where you didn't have
>any
>
>
>> backwards compatibility issues, it'd be fine to make a distinction
>
>
>> between 'zh' and 'cmn'. Those environments are going to probably be
>
>
>> rather rare.
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> Regards,
>
>
>>
>
>
>> Karen Broome
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:25 PM, <
>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
>> wrote:
>
>
>> > It seems like we're suggesting the following:
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > 1) The shortest tag for written Mandarin is "zh".
>
>
>> > 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is "cmn" unless of course
>you
>
>
>> feel
>
>
>> > like using "zh" (which, psst, might be a good idea because that's
>how
>
>
>> it's
>
>
>> > been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by the
>way,
>
>
>you
>
>
>> > can also use "zh-cmn" or "zh-guoyu."
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if
>extlang
>
>
>is
>
>
>> > removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- should
>be
>
>
>> "cmn."
>
>
>> > If it's not "cmn," you've changed the semantic of the "zh" tag to
>
>
>> > disinclude "yue."  With extlang, you have "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue"
>and
>
>
>the
>
>
>> > semantics of "zh" remain consistent. The argument that an
>overwhelming
>
>
>> > number of documents tagged with "zh" are Mandarin does not sway
>me. I
>
>
>> have
>
>
>> > Cantonese subtitles.
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately tag
>my
>
>
>> > Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is
>something
>
>
>in
>
>
>> > the draft that is ambiguous.
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls
>Chinese
>
>
>> are
>
>
>> > mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are
>languages.
>
>
>> This
>
>
>> > seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendation on
>the
>
>
>> best
>
>
>> > tag to use for these languages. I agree with Shawn that there is
>
>
>> something
>
>
>> > wrong here. I just wish I could better express my reservations.
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > Regards,
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > Karen Broome
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> wrote on 05/02/2008 12:03:59 PM:
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > > Shawn Steele scripsit:
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.  I've been out
>for a
>
>
>> few
>
>
>> > > > weeks so I may have missed some of the discussion.  The draft
>
>
>seems
>
>
>> > > > contradictory, but with the draft as my only guide, my
>
>
>> interpretation
>
>
>> > > > of what I'm reading now for Chinese is:
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > I assume that when you say "3066bis" you actually mean
>"4646bis",
>
>
>and
>
>
>> > are
>
>
>> > > asking about the meaning of the new draft rather than of the
>
>
>existing
>
>
>> > RFC.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > * zh should be pretty much assumed to be Mandarin.
>
>
>> > > > * yue should be used if you want Cantonese.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Yes.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say "don't just assume
>this
>
>
>> is
>
>
>> > > > Mandarin, it really is Mandarin."
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new material
>will be
>
>
>> > > "cmn".  "zh-cmn" becomes a grandfathered form equivalent to
>"cmn".
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > I get this from the end of 4.1 (choice)
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>>
>http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice
>:
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > >   "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the
>language
>
>
>> > > >   tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been
>historically
>
>
>> > > >   used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD
>be
>
>
>used
>
>
>> > > >   in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed
>language
>
>
>> unless
>
>
>> > > >   it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as
>a
>
>
>> whole
>
>
>> > > >   from that enclosed dominant language variety."
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > > So this sounds like I'm supposed to use "zh" instead of "cmn"
>
>
>> "unless
>
>
>> > > > it is necessary"
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Yes, provided that "pretty much assumed" does not mean "must be
>used
>
>
>> > for".
>
>
>> > > There are occasional reasons not to use it.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > Earlier in 2. of 4.1 it says:
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > >   "When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a
>recording of
>
>
>> > human
>
>
>> > > >   speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the
>
>
>> language
>
>
>> > > >   is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the
>subtitles to
>
>
>a
>
>
>> > > >   movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin,
>
>
>> > Traditional
>
>
>> > > >   script), but the audio track for the same language would be
>
>
>tagged
>
>
>> > > >   "zh-cmn". "
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Oops, that should be fixed to remove the "zh-" part.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for other
>places
>
>
>where
>
>
>> > > zh- or ar- might appear and see if they are now correct?
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > So apparently it is "necessary" to use a tag for Mandarin in
>some
>
>
>> > > > cases.  This example uses an irregular grandfathered tag
>though,
>
>
>> > > > I don't get that.  This section is "choice", presumably I
>
>
>shouldn't
>
>
>> > > > choose a grandfathered tag.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Right.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > Later we have:
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > >   "In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for
>special
>
>
>> > > >   consideration. Because the written form is very similar for
>most
>
>
>> > > >   languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and
>because
>
>
>> > > >   historically subtags for the various encompassed languages
>were
>
>
>> not
>
>
>> > > >   available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have
>
>
>historically
>
>
>> > > >   used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning
>with
>
>
>> > > >   'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be
>usefully
>
>
>> > > >   applied when searching for content or when providing
>fallbacks
>
>
>in
>
>
>> > > >   language negotiation. For example, the information that
>'yue'
>
>
>has
>
>
>> > > >   a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup
>algorithm to
>
>
>> > > >   fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN"
>
>
>without
>
>
>> > > >   losing the script and region information (even though the
>user
>
>
>did
>
>
>> > > >   not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request). "
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > > This is very different from the Mandarin description in 4.1
>(2.)
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Not really.  The core idea is that the "zh" tag is
>vague/inclusive
>
>
>and
>
>
>> > can
>
>
>> > > be used for any variety of Chinese.  However, most spoken
>Chinese is
>
>
>> in
>
>
>> > fact
>
>
>> > > Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin,
>so
>
>
>there
>
>
>> > is
>
>
>> > > a tendency to assume that "zh" simply means Mandarin.  In order
>to
>
>
>> > benefit
>
>
>> > > people who must distinguish, the tag "cmn" is introduced to
>mean
>
>
>> > "specifically
>
>
>> > > Mandarin, excluding all non-Mandarin varieties".
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely certain what
>is
>
>
>> > expected.
>
>
>> > > > As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been discussed and
>I
>
>
>> missed
>
>
>> > > > it, but if I only have the draft as context I would have to
>
>
>assume:
>
>
>> > > >
>
>
>> > > > * zh =3D=3D cmn =3D=3D zh-cmn and I need to do lookup for each of
>those
>
>
>> > > > * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to look at zh
>during
>
>
>> > lookup.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn =3D=3D zh-cmn
>instead.
>
>
>> > > Cantonese might be any of zh, zh-yue, or yue.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > Can someone clarify what the expectation is?  I would guess
>that
>
>
>by
>
>
>> > > > the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used statement
>that:
>
>
>> > > > * Only zh should be used to represent Mandarin, and that
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Not so.  "zh" should be used unless there is a compelling
>reason to
>
>
>> use
>
>
>> > > "cmn".
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > > * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, which
>optional
>
>
>> > > fallback lookup to zh if desired.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > Yes.
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> > > --
>
>
>> > > Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
>
>
>> > > in any language.  --Allen Brown
>cowan@ccil.org
>
>
>> > > _______________________________________________
>
>
>> > > Ltru mailing list
>
>
>> > >
>Ltru@ietf.org
>
>
>> > >
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>> > >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > _______________________________________________
>
>
>> > Ltru mailing list
>
>
>> >
>Ltru@ietf.org
>
>
>> >
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> >
>
>
>> > --
>
>
>> > Mark
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> --
>
>
>> Mark _______________________________________________
>
>
>> Ltru mailing list
>
>
>>
>Ltru@ietf.org
>
>
>>
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>Mark
>

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>No, you cannot use &#8220;min&#8221; to refer to a Chinese
language: &#8220;min&#8221; is a <i>Philippine</i> language, Minangkabau. T=
he appropriate
ID would be &#8220;nan&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is not possible to create a tag &#8220;cmn-min&#8221; or =
&#8220;cmn-nan&#8221;.
You could, perhaps, tag content with two (or more) tags, application allowi=
ng:
cmn; nan.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The tag &#8220;zh-Latn&#8221; would mean &#8220;Chinese writ=
ten
in Latin script&#8221;, and could be used for Chinese written in Pinyin. Si=
milarly,
&#8220;cmn-Latn&#8221; could be used to indicate Mandarin written in Pinyin=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The tag &#8220;zh-cmn&#8221; is a valid, grandfathered tag, =
but
with the publication of 4646bis &#8220;cmn&#8221; would also be valid and w=
ould
have equivalent meaning; at that point, &#8220;zh-cmn&#8221; should be
deprecated in favour of &#8220;cmn&#8221;. The difficult question is whethe=
r
authors should henceforth be recommended to use &#8220;cmn&#8221; for Manda=
rin
content or continue to tag Chinese content (which usually is Mandarin) as &=
#8220;zh&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ed=
mon
Chung<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 02, 2008 8:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; 'Mark Davis'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'LTRU Working Group'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'>Your
use of &quot;Taiwanese&quot; is a bit confusing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'>If
you are saying Mandarin spoken in Taiwan.&nbsp; In that case, I would tag i=
t:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'>cmn-TW<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'>&quot;Taiwanese&quot;
is also a dialect and you can use &quot;min&quot;.&nbsp; Taiwanese Mandarin
would somewhat mean a mixture of Taiwanese and Mandarin?&nbsp; In that case=
 I think
the tag should be (multiple langauges):<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'>min,cmn<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'>Is
it possible to do cmn-min?&nbsp; It would seem a bit strange but I can
appreciate the possibility, i.e. that the content is a mixture of Taiwanese=
 and
Mandarin.&nbsp; It is quite common in Taiwan I understand.&nbsp; I mean mix=
ing
it within sentences and not just some content with distinct portions of
Taiwanese and Mandarin.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'>Overall,
I feel the description for Chinese in the document is acceptable.&nbsp; The
example of &quot;zh-cmn&quot; and &quot;zh-cmn-hant&quot; should be updated=
 to
&quot;cmn&quot; and &quot;cmn-hant&quot; I feel.&nbsp; I however have a
different question which I apologize might create even more confusion (and
potentially a stupid question)... but nevertheless, how would I tag Pinyin
content (a written form of Chinese using English or Latin alphabets)?&nbsp;
Should it be: en-cmn or latn-cmn or should it be cmn-en or cmn-latn?&nbsp; =
If
people feel it is the latter case, then defintely zh-cmn should always be
cmn.&nbsp; However, if en-cmn or latn-cmn makes sense, then perhaps there i=
s
value for zh-cmn to distinguish between it and en-cmn.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'>Edmon<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ka=
ren_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mark Davis<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-CA>I do=
n't think
the average developer will understand the distinction you've made below. We
should have a clear recommendation for languages and dialects formerly
encompassed by &quot;zh&quot;.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
I need a tag for spoken Taiwanese Mandarin. I mention that it's spoken only
because I won't consider using any tag with a script in it. I do not believ=
e
the members of this list will agree on what the best tag for this content i=
s.
If this list can't agree on the preferred tag, I fear we've done something
wrong.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Karen Broome<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'color:#990099'>-----mark.e=
dward.davis@gmail.com
wrote: -----<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3DEN-CA>&gt;To:&nbsp;Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
&gt;From:&nbsp;&quot;Mark&nbsp;Davis&quot;&nbsp;&lt;mark.davis@icu-project.=
org&gt;<br>
&gt;Sent&nbsp;by:&nbsp;mark.edward.davis@gmail.com<br>
&gt;Date:&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;07:47PM<br>
&gt;cc:&nbsp;&quot;LTRU&nbsp;Working&nbsp;Group&quot;&nbsp;&lt;ltru@ietf.or=
g&gt;<br>
&gt;Subject:&nbsp;Re:&nbsp;[Ltru]&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;really&nbsp;confused&nbsp;b=
y&nbsp;chinese&nbsp;in&nbsp;3066bis<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I'm obviously not making myself clear, because you are leaping to<br>
&gt;conclusions&nbsp;that&nbsp;are&nbsp;not&nbsp;founded&nbsp;in&nbsp;what&=
nbsp;I'm&nbsp;saying.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I&nbsp;am&nbsp;NOT&nbsp;saying&nbsp;that&nbsp;zh&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;=
same&nbsp;as&nbsp;cmn.<br>
&gt;&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;not&nbsp;changing&nbsp;the&nbsp;semantics&nbsp;of&nbsp;'=
zh'&nbsp;at&nbsp;all*.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;What&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;saying&nbsp;is:&nbsp;<br>
&gt;although&nbsp;they&nbsp;are&nbsp;semantically&nbsp;distinct,<br>
&gt; my advice to most users would be that in practice for backwards<br>
&gt;compatibility&nbsp;in&nbsp;programs&nbsp;they&nbsp;are&nbsp;best&nbsp;o=
ff&nbsp;treated&nbsp;as&nbsp;synonyms.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Maybe it would be clearer with another example. I might say, for<br>
&gt;practical purposes on input in a particular program the value<br>
&gt;$99.999999 is best handled as though it were synonymous with $100 (eg<b=
r>
&gt;rounding). That doesn't mean I think that these two numbers are<br>
&gt;synonyms&nbsp;--&nbsp;far&nbsp;from&nbsp;it!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mark<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;* (Although, frankly, the few words of identification given in ISO<br>
&gt;639-1<br>
&gt;and&nbsp;-2&nbsp;are&nbsp;often&nbsp;very&nbsp;fuzzy,&nbsp;as&nbsp;we'v=
e&nbsp;seen&nbsp;time&nbsp;and&nbsp;time&nbsp;again.&nbsp;Many<br>
&gt;people,&nbsp;for&nbsp;example,&nbsp;consider&nbsp;Swiss&nbsp;German&nbs=
p;a&nbsp;kind&nbsp;of&nbsp;German.&nbsp;And<br>
&gt;&quot;German&quot;&nbsp;was&nbsp;all&nbsp;it&nbsp;said&nbsp;for&nbsp;'d=
e'&nbsp;in&nbsp;ISO&nbsp;639-1.&nbsp;So&nbsp;it&nbsp;would&nbsp;be<br>
&gt;perfectly natural for people to think that Swiss German would be<br>
&gt;de-CH,&nbsp;just&nbsp;like&nbsp;Austrian&nbsp;German&nbsp;is&nbsp;de-AT=
.&nbsp;)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;On&nbsp;Fri,&nbsp;May&nbsp;2,&nbsp;2008&nbsp;at&nbsp;6:26&nbsp;PM,&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&lt;<br>
&gt;Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;As much as we'd like to rewrite history, it's a semantic change.<br>
&gt;&nbsp;There&nbsp;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;a whole list of grandfathered tags such as zh-min, zh-yue, zh-hakka,<br=
>
&gt;and<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;others that will make no sense after this new semantic goes into<br>
&gt;effect<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;with RFC 4646bis. &nbsp;You've not only changed the semantic of
&quot;zh&quot;,<br>
&gt;&nbsp;you've<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;made all of those tags senseless as well. &nbsp;The very existence of<b=
r>
&gt;those<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;tags&nbsp;that&nbsp;identify&nbsp;other&nbsp;Chinese&nbsp;languages&nbs=
p;indicates&nbsp;to&nbsp;me&nbsp;that&nbsp;the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;registrants of those tags, myself included, did NOT interpret
&quot;zh&quot; to<br>
&gt;mean<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mandarin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;When I look at this page, I can see that John Cowan, Clay Compton,<br>
&gt;Kai-hus<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Tai, and I all registered tags that assume a more generic definition<br=
>
&gt;of<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&quot;zh&quot;. This seems to contradict your statement that &quot;zh&q=
uot;
has always<br>
&gt;meant<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mandarin in practice. Do you assume that these tag registrants<br>
&gt;registered<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;these&nbsp;tags&nbsp;and&nbsp;then&nbsp;never&nbsp;put&nbsp;them&nbsp;t=
o&nbsp;use?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tags<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Looking at the registrations you made, it appears possible that you<br>
&gt;were<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;operating under this assumption, but I'm not so sure this is the case<b=
r>
&gt;with<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;every&nbsp;user.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Karen&nbsp;Broome<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;ltru-bounces@ietf.org<br>
&gt;&nbsp;wrote&nbsp;on&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;03:19:31&nbsp;PM:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;On&nbsp;Fri,&nbsp;May&nbsp;2,&nbsp;2008&nbsp;at&nbsp;2:15&nbs=
p;PM,&nbsp;&lt;<br>
&gt;Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Comments.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;mark.edward.davis@gmail.com<br>
&gt;&nbsp;wrote&nbsp;on&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;01:27:15&nbsp;PM:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;I&nbsp;see&nbsp;it&nbsp;a&nbsp;bit&nbsp;differently=
:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; cmn means specifically Mandarin Chinese, spoken or written (e=
g<br>
&gt;cmn-HK)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;yue&nbsp;means&nbsp;specifically&nbsp;Cantonese&nbs=
p;Chinese,&nbsp;spoken&nbsp;or&nbsp;written&nbsp;(eg<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;yue-HK)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; zh means any Chinese, spoken or written, thus encompassing<br=
>
&gt;Mandarin,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese,&nbsp;and&nbsp;others.&nbsp;It&nbsp;thus&=
nbsp;is&nbsp;formally&nbsp;correct&nbsp;to&nbsp;tag&nbsp;either<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Mandarin Chinese content or Cantonese content with 'zh'. (eg<=
br>
&gt;zh-HK).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;So&nbsp;far,&nbsp;so&nbsp;good.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; However, because of the de facto predominance of Mandarin, 'z=
h'<br>
&gt;has<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;long&nbsp;been&nbsp;used&nbsp;to&nbsp;mean&nbsp;Man=
darin&nbsp;only.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Disagree.&nbsp;It&nbsp;was&nbsp;simply&nbsp;the&nbsp;most&nbs=
p;specific&nbsp;tag&nbsp;one&nbsp;could&nbsp;use&nbsp;for&nbsp;the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Mandarin at the time. That doesn't mean the tag ever meant<br>
&gt;&quot;Mandarin&quot;&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; anyone. We might as well say zh-TW means Traditional Mandarin as<b=
r>
&gt;this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;tag<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;has&nbsp;been&nbsp;used&nbsp;more&nbsp;often&nbsp;than&nbsp;z=
h-Hant.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I stand by what I said: it has long been used to mean just<br>
&gt;Mandarin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; If you make a request using 'zh' to products from Google,<br>
&gt;Microsoft,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Apple,&nbsp;Sun,&nbsp;and&nbsp;so&nbsp;on,&nbsp;in&nbsp;pract=
ice&nbsp;that&nbsp;does&nbsp;not&nbsp;mean:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Give me some kind of Chinese, I don't care whether it is Mandarin<=
br>
&gt;or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese&nbsp;or&nbsp;Hakka.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Instead,&nbsp;in&nbsp;practice,&nbsp;it&nbsp;means:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Give&nbsp;me&nbsp;Mandarin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;In&nbsp;practice,&nbsp;'zh'&nbsp;and&nbsp;'cmn'&nbs=
p;are&nbsp;best&nbsp;treated&nbsp;as&nbsp;synonyms<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; OK, so you're changing the semantics of the tag in practice. I<br>
&gt;don't<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;think<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; there can be any other interpretation of that statement. I think<b=
r>
&gt;this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; subtlety will be utterly lost on anyone who did not participate in=
<br>
&gt;this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;working&nbsp;group.&nbsp;Where&nbsp;else&nbsp;do&nbsp;we&nbsp=
;give&nbsp;users&nbsp;a&nbsp;choice&nbsp;as&nbsp;far&nbsp;as&nbsp;which<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; language subtag to use? How am I going to tell people they can't<b=
r>
&gt;use<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&quot;eng&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; but that they have a choice of &quot;zh&quot; or &quot;cmn&quot; w=
hen
it comes to<br>
&gt;Mandarin?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Where backwards compatibility is important, 'zh' is preferred=
<br>
&gt;over<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;'cmn'.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Content that is not Mandarin (eg Cantonese) should not be tag=
ged<br>
&gt;with<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;'zh'<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Your average developer just gets a language requirement and wants<=
br>
&gt;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;match<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; it to a code. They may not be interested in assessing their need<b=
r>
&gt;for<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;backwards&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;and&nbsp;multiple&nbsp;lang=
uage&nbsp;modes&nbsp;as&nbsp;part&nbsp;of&nbsp;this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;task.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This wasn't something that needed to be considered in the past.<br=
>
&gt;&nbsp;Forcing<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; the user to use conditional logic to figure out which tag to use i=
s<br>
&gt;not<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; likely to result in any sort of consistency of tagging and could<b=
r>
&gt;even<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;prevent&nbsp;the&nbsp;adoption&nbsp;and&nbsp;utility&nbsp;of&=
nbsp;this&nbsp;work.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Personally,&nbsp;if&nbsp;someone&nbsp;in&nbsp;my&nbsp;company=
&nbsp;came&nbsp;to&nbsp;me&nbsp;and&nbsp;said&nbsp;&quot;what<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;should&nbsp;I&nbsp;use&quot;,&nbsp;I&nbsp;would&nbsp;uncondit=
ionally&nbsp;say&nbsp;&quot;zh&quot;.&nbsp;If&nbsp;someone&nbsp;were&nbsp;t=
o<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; hand us 'cmn-CN', I'd say, map that first thing to &quot;zh-CN&quo=
t;.<br>
&gt;Backward<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;dominates.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The important thing for us is to get the *new* capability offered<=
br>
&gt;by<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&quot;yue&quot;,&nbsp;etc.,&nbsp;not&nbsp;to&nbsp;make&nbsp;a=
&nbsp;distinction&nbsp;between&nbsp;'zh'&nbsp;and&nbsp;'cmn'&nbsp;that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;would&nbsp;be&nbsp;extremely&nbsp;painful&nbsp;to&nbsp;implem=
ent&nbsp;and&nbsp;return&nbsp;no&nbsp;extra&nbsp;value<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;for&nbsp;our&nbsp;users.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; If you are in an isolated, new environment where you didn't have<b=
r>
&gt;any<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;backwards&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;issues,&nbsp;it'd&nbsp;be&n=
bsp;fine&nbsp;to&nbsp;make&nbsp;a&nbsp;distinction<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;between&nbsp;'zh'&nbsp;and&nbsp;'cmn'.&nbsp;Those&nbsp;enviro=
nments&nbsp;are&nbsp;going&nbsp;to&nbsp;probably&nbsp;be<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;rather&nbsp;rare.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Karen&nbsp;Broome<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;On&nbsp;Fri,&nbsp;May&nbsp;2,&nbsp;2008&nbsp;at&nbs=
p;12:25&nbsp;PM,&nbsp;&lt;<br>
&gt;Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;It&nbsp;seems&nbsp;like&nbsp;we're&nbsp;suggesting&=
nbsp;the&nbsp;following:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;1)&nbsp;The&nbsp;shortest&nbsp;tag&nbsp;for&nbsp;wr=
itten&nbsp;Mandarin&nbsp;is&nbsp;&quot;zh&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; 2) The shortest tag for spoken Mandarin is &quot;cmn&quot; un=
less
of course<br>
&gt;you<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;feel<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; like using &quot;zh&quot; (which, psst, might be a good idea
because that's<br>
&gt;how<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;it's<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; been used even if that isn't exactly what it means) and by th=
e<br>
&gt;way,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;you<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;can&nbsp;also&nbsp;use&nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn&quot;&nbsp=
;or&nbsp;&quot;zh-guoyu.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I think that the shortest tag for Mandarin in each case -- if=
<br>
&gt;extlang<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; removed and we do not want to change the tag semantics -- sho=
uld<br>
&gt;be<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&quot;cmn.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;If&nbsp;it's&nbsp;not&nbsp;&quot;cmn,&quot;&nbsp;yo=
u've&nbsp;changed&nbsp;the&nbsp;semantic&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;&quot;zh&quo=
t;&nbsp;tag&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; disinclude &quot;yue.&quot; &nbsp;With extlang, you have
&quot;zh-cmn&quot; and &quot;zh-yue&quot;<br>
&gt;and<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; semantics of &quot;zh&quot; remain consistent. The argument t=
hat
an<br>
&gt;overwhelming<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; number of documents tagged with &quot;zh&quot; are Mandarin d=
oes
not sway<br>
&gt;me.&nbsp;I<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;have<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese&nbsp;subtitles.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; There are differences of opinion on how I should accurately t=
ag<br>
&gt;my<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Taiwanese Mandarin -- this seems to indicate that there is<br=
>
&gt;something<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;in<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft&nbsp;that&nbsp;is&nbsp;ambiguous.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; In written form, it seems like the variants of what ISO calls=
<br>
&gt;Chinese<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;are<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; mutually intelligible (dialects). In spoken form, they are<br=
>
&gt;languages.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;This<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; seems to create some odd scenarios and no clear recommendatio=
n on<br>
&gt;the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;tag&nbsp;to&nbsp;use&nbsp;for&nbsp;these&nbsp;langu=
ages.&nbsp;I&nbsp;agree&nbsp;with&nbsp;Shawn&nbsp;that&nbsp;there&nbsp;is<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;something<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;wrong&nbsp;here.&nbsp;I&nbsp;just&nbsp;wish&nbsp;I&=
nbsp;could&nbsp;better&nbsp;express&nbsp;my&nbsp;reservations.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Karen&nbsp;Broome<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;ltru-bounces@ietf.org<br>
&gt;&nbsp;wrote&nbsp;on&nbsp;05/02/2008&nbsp;12:03:59&nbsp;PM:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Shawn&nbsp;Steele&nbsp;scripsit:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I'm confused by the text surrounding Chinese.
&nbsp;I've been out<br>
&gt;for&nbsp;a<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;few<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;weeks&nbsp;so&nbsp;I&nbsp;may&n=
bsp;have&nbsp;missed&nbsp;some&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;discussion.&nbsp;&nbsp=
;The&nbsp;draft<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;seems<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;contradictory,&nbsp;but&nbsp;wi=
th&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft&nbsp;as&nbsp;my&nbsp;only&nbsp;guide,&nbsp;my<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;interpretation<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;of&nbsp;what&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;read=
ing&nbsp;now&nbsp;for&nbsp;Chinese&nbsp;is:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; I assume that when you say &quot;3066bis&quot; you actua=
lly
mean<br>
&gt;&quot;4646bis&quot;,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;and<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;are<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;asking&nbsp;about&nbsp;the&nbsp;meaning&n=
bsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;new&nbsp;draft&nbsp;rather&nbsp;than&nbsp;of&nbsp;the<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;existing<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;RFC.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;*&nbsp;zh&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&n=
bsp;pretty&nbsp;much&nbsp;assumed&nbsp;to&nbsp;be&nbsp;Mandarin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;*&nbsp;yue&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&=
nbsp;used&nbsp;if&nbsp;you&nbsp;want&nbsp;Cantonese.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Yes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * zh-cmn should be used if you want to say &quot;do=
n't
just assume<br>
&gt;this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Mandarin,&nbsp;it&nbsp;really&n=
bsp;is&nbsp;Mandarin.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Rather, the appropriate tag for that meaning in new mate=
rial<br>
&gt;will&nbsp;be<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;cmn&quot;. &nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn&quot; becomes a
grandfathered form equivalent to<br>
&gt;&quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;I&nbsp;get&nbsp;this&nbsp;from&=
nbsp;the&nbsp;end&nbsp;of&nbsp;4.1&nbsp;(choice)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html#choice<b=
r>
&gt;:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;In general, use the most specific subt=
ag
to form the<br>
&gt;language<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag ha=
s
been<br>
&gt;historically<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; used to denote a dominant encompassed langua=
ge,
it SHOULD<br>
&gt;be<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;used<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; in place of the subtag specific to that
encompassed<br>
&gt;language<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;unless<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; it is necessary to clearly distinguish the
macrolanguage as<br>
&gt;a<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;whole<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;from&nbsp;that&nbsp=
;enclosed&nbsp;dominant&nbsp;language&nbsp;variety.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;So&nbsp;this&nbsp;sounds&nbsp;l=
ike&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;supposed&nbsp;to&nbsp;use&nbsp;&quot;zh&quot;&nbsp;instea=
d&nbsp;of&nbsp;&quot;cmn&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&quot;unless<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;necessary&quot;=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, provided that &quot;pretty much assumed&quot; does =
not
mean &quot;must be<br>
&gt;used<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;for&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;There&nbsp;are&nbsp;occasional&nbsp;reaso=
ns&nbsp;not&nbsp;to&nbsp;use&nbsp;it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Earlier&nbsp;in&nbsp;2.&nbsp;of=
&nbsp;4.1&nbsp;it&nbsp;says:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;When labeling content that is unwritte=
n
(such as a<br>
&gt;recording&nbsp;of<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;human<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;speech),&nbsp;the&n=
bsp;script&nbsp;subtag&nbsp;should&nbsp;not&nbsp;be&nbsp;used,&nbsp;even&nb=
sp;if&nbsp;the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;language<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; is customarily written in several scripts. T=
hus
the<br>
&gt;subtitles&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;a<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;movie&nbsp;might&nb=
sp;use&nbsp;the&nbsp;tag&nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn-Hant&quot;&nbsp;(Chinese,&nbsp;M=
andarin,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Traditional<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;script),&nbsp;but&n=
bsp;the&nbsp;audio&nbsp;track&nbsp;for&nbsp;the&nbsp;same&nbsp;language&nbs=
p;would&nbsp;be<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;tagged<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;zh-cmn&quot;.=
&nbsp;&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Oops,&nbsp;that&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&nbsp;=
fixed&nbsp;to&nbsp;remove&nbsp;the&nbsp;&quot;zh-&quot;&nbsp;part.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Addison, can you make this fix quickly and look for othe=
r<br>
&gt;places<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;where<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;zh-&nbsp;or&nbsp;ar-&nbsp;might&nbsp;appe=
ar&nbsp;and&nbsp;see&nbsp;if&nbsp;they&nbsp;are&nbsp;now&nbsp;correct?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So apparently it is &quot;necessary&quot; to use a =
tag
for Mandarin in<br>
&gt;some<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; cases. &nbsp;This example uses an irregular
grandfathered tag<br>
&gt;though,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;I&nbsp;don't&nbsp;get&nbsp;that=
.&nbsp;&nbsp;This&nbsp;section&nbsp;is&nbsp;&quot;choice&quot;,&nbsp;presum=
ably&nbsp;I<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;shouldn't<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;choose&nbsp;a&nbsp;grandfathere=
d&nbsp;tag.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Right.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Later&nbsp;we&nbsp;have:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; &quot;In particular, the Chinese family of
languages call for<br>
&gt;special<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; consideration. Because the written form is v=
ery
similar for<br>
&gt;most<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a
macrolanguage (and<br>
&gt;because<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; historically subtags for the various encompa=
ssed
languages<br>
&gt;were<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;not<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;available),&nbsp;la=
nguages&nbsp;such&nbsp;as&nbsp;'yue'&nbsp;(Cantonese)&nbsp;have<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;historically<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered=
)
beginning<br>
&gt;with<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; 'zh'. This means that macrolanguage informat=
ion
can be<br>
&gt;usefully<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; applied when searching for content or when p=
roviding<br>
&gt;fallbacks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;in<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; language negotiation. For example, the
information that<br>
&gt;'yue'<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;has<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the
Lookup<br>
&gt;algorithm&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;fallback&nbsp;from&=
nbsp;a&nbsp;request&nbsp;for&nbsp;&quot;yue-Hans-CN&quot;&nbsp;to&nbsp;&quo=
t;zh-Hans-CN&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;without<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp; losing the script and region information (ev=
en
though the<br>
&gt;user<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;did<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;not&nbsp;specify&nb=
sp;&quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot;&nbsp;in&nbsp;their&nbsp;request).&nbsp;&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; This is very different from the Mandarin descriptio=
n in
4.1<br>
&gt;(2.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Not really. &nbsp;The core idea is that the &quot;zh&quo=
t;
tag is<br>
&gt;vague/inclusive<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;and<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;can<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; be used for any variety of Chinese. &nbsp;However, most
spoken<br>
&gt;Chinese&nbsp;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;in<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;fact<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Mandarin, and almost all written Chinese is in fact
Mandarin,<br>
&gt;so<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;there<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; a tendency to assume that &quot;zh&quot; simply means
Mandarin. &nbsp;In order<br>
&gt;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;benefit<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; people who must distinguish, the tag &quot;cmn&quot; is
introduced to<br>
&gt;mean<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&quot;specifically<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Mandarin,&nbsp;excluding&nbsp;all&nbsp;no=
n-Mandarin&nbsp;varieties&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So from the text of the draft I'm not entirely cert=
ain
what<br>
&gt;is<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;expected.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; As mentioned, I was out, so this may have been
discussed and<br>
&gt;I<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;missed<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;it,&nbsp;but&nbsp;if&nbsp;I&nbs=
p;only&nbsp;have&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft&nbsp;as&nbsp;context&nbsp;I&nbsp;would=
&nbsp;have&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;assume:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * zh =3D=3D cmn =3D=3D zh-cmn and I need to do look=
up for each
of<br>
&gt;those<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * yue is explicitly Cantonese, but I may need to lo=
ok
at zh<br>
&gt;during<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;lookup.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Most Mandarin is tagged zh, but some may be cmn =3D=3D z=
h-cmn<br>
&gt;instead.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Cantonese&nbsp;might&nbsp;be&nbsp;any&nbs=
p;of&nbsp;zh,&nbsp;zh-yue,&nbsp;or&nbsp;yue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Can someone clarify what the expectation is? &nbsp;=
I
would guess<br>
&gt;that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;by<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the table and the macrolanguage SHOULD be used
statement<br>
&gt;that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;*&nbsp;Only&nbsp;zh&nbsp;should=
&nbsp;be&nbsp;used&nbsp;to&nbsp;represent&nbsp;Mandarin,&nbsp;and&nbsp;that=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Not so. &nbsp;&quot;zh&quot; should be used unless there=
 is
a compelling<br>
&gt;reason&nbsp;to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;use<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * only yue should be used to represent Cantonese, w=
hich<br>
&gt;optional<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;fallback&nbsp;lookup&nbsp;to&nbsp;zh&nbsp=
;if&nbsp;desired.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Yes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;--<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Real&nbsp;FORTRAN&nbsp;programmers&nbsp;c=
an&nbsp;program&nbsp;FORTRAN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;John&nbsp;Cowan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;in&nbsp;any&nbsp;language.&nbsp;&nbsp;--A=
llen&nbsp;Brown&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;cowan@ccil.org<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;_________________________________________=
______<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;list<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;Ltru@ietf.org<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;list<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;Ltru@ietf.org<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;--<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;Mark<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;--<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Mark&nbsp;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;list<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;Ltru@ietf.org<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;--&nbsp;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mark<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat May  3 21:38:26 2008
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 21:38:22 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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For Karen's particular application, I wouldn't be surprised (of course, she can clarify) if she needed to distinguish "Mandarin as spoken in Taiwan" from "Min Nan as spoken in Taiwan" or "Hakka as spoken in Taiwan". If so, then "zh-TW" would not really be adequate for the first.


Peter


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> John Cowan
> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:29 AM
> To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit:
>
> > I need a tag for spoken Taiwanese Mandarin. I mention that it's
> spoken
> > only because I won't consider using any tag with a script in it. I do
> > not believe the members of this list will agree on what the best tag
> > for this content is.  If this list can't agree on the preferred tag,
> > I fear we've done something wrong.
>
> I said zh-TW was appropriate for that function, particularly when the
> context eliminates the possibility that zh-TW is being used to
> represent
> written language.  No one has contradicted me yet.
>
> --
> Not to perambulate                 John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
>     the corridors                  http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> during the hours of repose
>     in the boots of ascension.       --Sign in Austrian ski-resort
> hotel
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat May  3 22:21:10 2008
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:21:08 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> I'm not saying the "treating as synonyms" strategy is always going to be =
the right answer.
> There are undoubtedly scenarios where this strategy is not necessary, alt=
hough I can't
> think of any off the top of my head.
I realize you're making a distinction between "are synonymns" and "are best=
 treated (sometimes) as synonyms".  My problem with that is that sometimes =
will turn into always.

For example you mention that moving from zh to cmn is maybe the right thing=
 to do, but even then it'll take years and people have to use the zh as a s=
ynonym in the meantime.  The problem is then nobody has any incentive to ma=
ke the transition and "sometimes" synonyms will turn into "always" synonyms=
 because there's no clear distinction between the two and when it is approp=
riate to use each one.

You even state that you can't easily think of any scenarios where you would=
n't treat them as synonyms.  So my suggestiton is that if they aren't disti=
nct, then we shouldn't pretend they are.  (And then if zh =3D=3D cmn, why b=
other changing and just keep zh).

We need to clearly explain when cmn would be used (or recommended) instead =
of zh in a non-synonym case.  If we can't do that, then we shouldn't be mak=
ing the distinction.

- Shawn


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1">
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<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt; I'm not saying the &quot;treating as synonyms&quot; s=
trategy is always going to be the right answer.
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt; </font>There are undou=
btedly scenarios where this strategy is not necessary, although I can't<br>
<font face=3D"times new roman">&gt; </font>think of any off the top of my h=
ead.<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">I realize you're making a d=
istinction between &quot;are synonymns&quot; and &quot;are best treated (so=
metimes) as synonyms&quot;.&nbsp; My problem with that is that sometimes wi=
ll turn into always.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">For example you mention tha=
t moving from zh to cmn is maybe the right thing to do, but even then it'll=
 take years and people have to use the zh as a synonym in the meantime.&nbs=
p; The problem is then nobody has any incentive
 to make the transition and &quot;sometimes&quot; synonyms will turn into &=
quot;always&quot; synonyms because there's no clear distinction between the=
 two and when it is appropriate to use each one.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">You even state that you can=
't easily think of any scenarios where you wouldn't treat them as synonyms.=
&nbsp; So my suggestiton is that if they aren't distinct, then we shouldn't=
 pretend they are.&nbsp; (And then if zh =3D=3D cmn,
 why bother changing and just keep zh).</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">We need to clearly explain =
when cmn would be used (or recommended) instead of zh in a non-synonym case=
.&nbsp; If we can't do that, then we shouldn't be making the distinction.</=
font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">- Shawn</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat May  3 22:25:23 2008
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:21:16 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang was I'm really confused by chinese...
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I didn't want to randomize my main point, so I'm replying to this one seper=
ately:

> Nor was this solved at all by extlang -- as we discussed at some length, =
it discarded all script
> and region info when falling back, and produces worse results in many cas=
es, especially where
> the macrolanguage does not have a predominant form.

I disagree that its worse than the worse cases of not having extlang.  Of c=
ourse that depends on what your case is, but either way requires muddling w=
ith the fallback behavior in a non-obvious manner.  Extlang has the advanta=
ge of at least having the macro language available without referring to the=
 registry (which in practice isn't really used in many applications.)

- Shawn

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">I didn't want to randomiz=
e my main point, so I'm replying to this one seperately:</font></div>
<font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2"></font>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
&gt; Nor was this solved at all by extlang -- as we discussed at some lengt=
h, it discarded all script</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt; </font>and region info=
 when falling back, and produces worse results in many cases, especially wh=
ere</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt;</font>&nbsp;the macrol=
anguage does not have a predominant form.<br>
<br>
I disagree that its worse than the worse cases of not having extlang.&nbsp;=
 Of course that depends on what your case is, but either way requires muddl=
ing with the fallback behavior in a non-obvious manner.&nbsp; Extlang has t=
he advantage of at least having the macro
 language available without referring to the registry (which in practice is=
n't really used in many applications.)</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">- Shawn</font></div>
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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] LANGUAGE SUBTAG MODIFICATION REQUEST - zxx
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Doug wrote:

> The existence of "zxx" does complicate the original notion
> that only demonstrably linguistic content is within the scope
> of language tagging.
> I don't know how to solve the larger problem, but I suggest
> deleting all references to programming source code in 4.1
> (4)(4), to resolve at least that part of the problem that has
> given rise to misunderstanding.

I think this is a very good idea in particular because ISO 639 explicitly
says that it does not code programming languages and zxx is an ISO 639 code.

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: 03 May 2008 20:10
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] LANGUAGE SUBTAG MODIFICATION REQUEST - zxx
>
> Randy Presuhn <randy underscore presuhn at mindspring dot
> com> wrote, in a thread that started on ietf-languages:
>
> >> I am keeping that in mind, but unfortunately I am also looking at
> >> draft-4646bis, Section 4.1 (4)(4), which -- despite the "out of
> >> scope" statement above -- goes on to recommend the use of
> 'zxx' for
> >> "programming source code."
> > ...
> >
> > If that text is being mis-read as a recommendation, we need
> to change
> > it.  To me the text in question is clearly just a list of possible
> > examples, with no normative force.  After its sole
> normative sentence,
> > the paragraph continues with "Some examples might include".
>
> If we're going to state on page 5 that programming languages
> are out of scope, then we ought not to include a paragraph of
> "examples" 42 pages later, no matter how informative, that
> show how to tag programming source code.
>
> The existence of "zxx" does complicate the original notion
> that only demonstrably linguistic content is within the scope
> of language tagging.
> I don't know how to solve the larger problem, but I suggest
> deleting all references to programming source code in 4.1
> (4)(4), to resolve at least that part of the problem that has
> given rise to misunderstanding.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>




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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax
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Doug wrote:

> These 639-6 code elements still aren't publicly available
> anywhere, right?

Right, but they will be in a few weeks.

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: 03 May 2008 23:10
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Upcoming changes to BCP47 (language tag) syntax
>
> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> > With ISO FDIS 639-6 going out for a 2 month vote in the next day or
> > so, you could use: zh-TW-x-cmns :-)  cmns is a pretty
> stable code for
> > Mandarin Chinese Spoken within ISO FDIS 639-6 but be aware that
> > nothing is set in stone until the standard is published.
>
> These 639-6 code elements still aren't publicly available
> anywhere, right?
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Ira McDonald 2008-05-04 02.21:
> The universe is not *just* a web browser.
>
> Karen is tagging spoken languages in audio media (among other things).
>
> Printer vendors and vendors of *every* other kind of network-connected
> product are tagging written (and increasingly spoken) languages for their
> local console and remote (non-browser) interfaces.
>
> Truncation fallback has been around as long as language tags.  Developers
> who aren't language experts are going to continue to usually use it.
>
> "zh-cmn" fallback to "zh" would have worked (more or less) in most software.
>
> "cmn" fallback to "zh" is NOT going to work in most software in the future
> (because it depends on "and then a miracle happens" logic).
>
> Sticking scripts into language tags *in that location* is still a lousy idea,
> as Karen's comments make clear.
>
> RFC 4646 had problems - RFC 4646bis has bigger problems.
>
> Even if miraculously we could retrain/re-educate all the software
> developers and content developers, we can *never* accomplish
> that with all the poor end users on the planet.
>   

I subscribe wholeheartedly to these views. Extlang tags are 
userfriendly. Or perhaps I should say *use* friendly.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Hi

>From reading through the various emails there would seem to be quite a body
of people in favour of re-opening the extlang debate.  I know this is a late
stage to be doing this but if there are problems with "synonyms" that would
be solved with the inclusion of extlang I would be in favour of re-opening
the debate.

Randy, Martin?

Best

Debbie

Debbie Garside
CEO

The World Language Documentation Centre
Corner House
Barn Street
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire SA61 1BW
Wales UK

Tel: 0044 1437 766441
Fax: 0044 1437 766173

Web: http://www.thewldc.org




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<div>Yes, that is my requirement and why I'm pointing out that zh-TW isn't =
enough for me.<br><br>Karen<br><div><br><div><br></div><font color=3D"#9900=
99">-----ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote: -----<br><br></font>&gt;To:&nbsp;LTRU=
&nbsp;Working&nbsp;Group&nbsp;&lt;ltru@ietf.org&gt;<br>&gt;From:&nbsp;Peter=
&nbsp;Constable&nbsp;&lt;petercon@microsoft.com&gt;<br>&gt;Sent&nbsp;by:&nb=
sp;ltru-bounces@ietf.org<br>&gt;Date:&nbsp;05/03/2008&nbsp;09:38PM<br>&gt;S=
ubject:&nbsp;Re:&nbsp;[Ltru]&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;really&nbsp;confused&nbsp;by&nbs=
p;chinese&nbsp;in&nbsp;3066bis<br>&gt;<br>&gt;For Karen's particular applic=
ation, I wouldn't be surprised (of<br>&gt;course, she can clarify) if she n=
eeded to distinguish "Mandarin as<br>&gt;spoken in Taiwan" from "Min Nan as=
 spoken in Taiwan" or "Hakka as<br>&gt;spoken in Taiwan". If so, then "zh-T=
W" would not really be adequate<br>&gt;for&nbsp;the&nbsp;first.<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;Peter<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;-----Original&nbsp;Messa=
ge-----<br>&gt;&gt; From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.o=
rg] On<br>&gt;Behalf&nbsp;Of<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;John&nbsp;Cowan<br>&gt;&gt;&n=
bsp;Sent:&nbsp;Saturday,&nbsp;May&nbsp;03,&nbsp;2008&nbsp;11:29&nbsp;AM<br>=
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;To:&nbsp;Karen=5FBroome@spe.sony.com<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Cc:&nbs=
p;LTRU&nbsp;Working&nbsp;Group<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Subject:&nbsp;Re:&nbsp;[Ltr=
u]&nbsp;I'm&nbsp;really&nbsp;confused&nbsp;by&nbsp;chinese&nbsp;in&nbsp;306=
6bis<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Karen=5FBroome@spe.sony.com&nbsp;scripsit=
:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;I&nbsp;need&nbsp;a&nbsp;tag&nbsp;f=
or&nbsp;spoken&nbsp;Taiwanese&nbsp;Mandarin.&nbsp;I&nbsp;mention&nbsp;that&=
nbsp;it's<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;spoken<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; only because I won't con=
sider using any tag with a script in it.<br>&gt;I&nbsp;do<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; =
not believe the members of this list will agree on what the best<br>&gt;tag=
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; for this content is. &nbsp;If this list can't agree on th=
e preferred<br>&gt;tag,<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;I&nbsp;fear&nbsp;we've&n=
bsp;done&nbsp;something&nbsp;wrong.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I said zh-TW wa=
s appropriate for that function, particularly when<br>&gt;the<br>&gt;&gt;&n=
bsp;context&nbsp;eliminates&nbsp;the&nbsp;possibility&nbsp;that&nbsp;zh-TW&=
nbsp;is&nbsp;being&nbsp;used&nbsp;to<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;represent<br>&gt;&gt;=
&nbsp;written&nbsp;language.&nbsp;&nbsp;No&nbsp;one&nbsp;has&nbsp;contradic=
ted&nbsp;me&nbsp;yet.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;--<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Not&=
nbsp;to&nbsp;perambulate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;John&nbsp;Cowan&nbsp;&lt=
;cowan@ccil.org&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the&nbsp;corri=
dors&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;http://www.ccil.org/~cowan<br>&gt;&gt;=
&nbsp;during&nbsp;the&nbsp;hours&nbsp;of&nbsp;repose<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;boots&nbsp;of&nbsp;ascension.&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--Sign&nbsp;in&nbsp;Austrian&nbsp;ski-resor=
t<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;hotel<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;l=
ist<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;Ltru@ietf.org<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ltru<br>&gt;=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br>&gt;Ltru&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;list<br>&gt;Ltru@ietf.org<=
br>&gt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;</=
div></div>=


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Extlang tags may work well for the Norweigan case, but ...

Extlang tags solve some problems and create other problems.

I doubt there is a single neat way of handling all this. At some point
some processing needs to occur. many applications sue a simplistic
approach to language tags. With the inclusion of ISO-639-3 and the
expansion of languages, things are more complex.

At some point applications and servers have to implement ways of
addressing those complexities.

But life will be easier, if we just assume "zh" = Chinese (not further
specified)

and try to educate users and developers.

2008/5/4 Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>:
> Ira McDonald 2008-05-04 02.21:
>
> > The universe is not *just* a web browser.
>  >
>  > Karen is tagging spoken languages in audio media (among other things).
>  >
>  > Printer vendors and vendors of *every* other kind of network-connected
>  > product are tagging written (and increasingly spoken) languages for their
>  > local console and remote (non-browser) interfaces.
>  >
>  > Truncation fallback has been around as long as language tags.  Developers
>  > who aren't language experts are going to continue to usually use it.
>  >
>  > "zh-cmn" fallback to "zh" would have worked (more or less) in most software.
>  >
>  > "cmn" fallback to "zh" is NOT going to work in most software in the future
>  > (because it depends on "and then a miracle happens" logic).
>  >
>  > Sticking scripts into language tags *in that location* is still a lousy idea,
>  > as Karen's comments make clear.
>  >
>  > RFC 4646 had problems - RFC 4646bis has bigger problems.
>  >
>  > Even if miraculously we could retrain/re-educate all the software
>  > developers and content developers, we can *never* accomplish
>  > that with all the poor end users on the planet.
>  >
>
>  I subscribe wholeheartedly to these views. Extlang tags are
>  userfriendly. Or perhaps I should say *use* friendly.
>  --
>  leif halvard silli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  Ltru mailing list
>  Ltru@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
lang.support@gmail.com
_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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 There are intelligent points of view on both sides about extlang. We had a
long and exhaustive debate about it some time ago,--long before you raised
this at the last minute--and were finally able to reach a rough consensus. I
don't think anyone really wants to go through that again. Your recent mails
don't really add any new information on the topic, I suggest that you review
the many, many archived mails about it.

Mark

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>  > I'm not saying the "treating as synonyms" strategy is always going to
> be the right answer.
> > There are undoubtedly scenarios where this strategy is not necessary,
> although I can't
> > think of any off the top of my head.
>  I realize you're making a distinction between "are synonymns" and "are
> best treated (sometimes) as synonyms".  My problem with that is that
> sometimes will turn into always.
>
> For example you mention that moving from zh to cmn is maybe the right
> thing to do, but even then it'll take years and people have to use the zh as
> a synonym in the meantime.  The problem is then nobody has any incentive to
> make the transition and "sometimes" synonyms will turn into "always"
> synonyms because there's no clear distinction between the two and when it is
> appropriate to use each one.
>
> You even state that you can't easily think of any scenarios where you
> wouldn't treat them as synonyms.  So my suggestiton is that if they aren't
> distinct, then we shouldn't pretend they are.  (And then if zh == cmn, why
> bother changing and just keep zh).
>
> We need to clearly explain when cmn would be used (or recommended) instead
> of zh in a non-synonym case.  If we can't do that, then we shouldn't be
> making the distinction.
>
> - Shawn
>
>



-- 
Mark

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 There are intelligent points of view on both sides about extlang. We had a long and exhaustive debate about it some time ago,--long before you raised this at the last minute--and were finally able to reach a rough consensus. I don&#39;t think anyone really wants to go through that again. Your recent mails don&#39;t really add any new information on the topic, I suggest that you review the many, many archived mails about it.<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Shawn Steele &lt;<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">





<div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div dir="ltr">&gt; I&#39;m not saying the &quot;treating as synonyms&quot; strategy is always going to be the right answer.
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">&gt; </font>There are undoubtedly scenarios where this strategy is not necessary, although I can&#39;t<br>
<font face="times new roman">&gt; </font>think of any off the top of my head.<br>
</div>
</div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">I realize you&#39;re making a distinction between &quot;are synonymns&quot; and &quot;are best treated (sometimes) as synonyms&quot;.&nbsp; My problem with that is that sometimes will turn into always.</font></div>

<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">For example you mention that moving from zh to cmn is maybe the right thing to do, but even then it&#39;ll take years and people have to use the zh as a synonym in the meantime.&nbsp; The problem is then nobody has any incentive
 to make the transition and &quot;sometimes&quot; synonyms will turn into &quot;always&quot; synonyms because there&#39;s no clear distinction between the two and when it is appropriate to use each one.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">You even state that you can&#39;t easily think of any scenarios where you wouldn&#39;t treat them as synonyms.&nbsp; So my suggestiton is that if they aren&#39;t distinct, then we shouldn&#39;t pretend they are.&nbsp; (And then if zh == cmn,
 why bother changing and just keep zh).</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">We need to clearly explain when cmn would be used (or recommended) instead of zh in a non-synonym case.&nbsp; If we can&#39;t do that, then we shouldn&#39;t be making the distinction.</font></div>

<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">- Shawn</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Martin D=FCrst wrote about rfc-822-like-message-header =

"Accept-Language" =


>Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:25:28 +0900
>To: Asmus Freytag <asmusf@ix.netcom.com>,
>        Andrew Cunningham <andrewc@vicnet.net.au>
>From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
>CC: www-international@w3.org
> Archived-At: <http://www.w3.org/mid/6.0.0.20.2.20080430142025.0b2154e0@lo=
calhost>


>Actually, it IS handled by the current scheme, with what's called
>q-values. Q-values are used to indicate relative preferences from
>the client side, and relative quality on the server side. So a
>server could give original documents a q value of 1.0, and translated
>documents a q-value of e.g. 0.5 (q-values are always between 1.0 and
>0.0).
>
>q-values are sent by some browsers, which translate a preference
>list of e.g. en, ja, de, fr into something like
>   en, ja;q=3D0.9, de;q=3D0.8, fr;q=3D0.7
>or so. Apache also understands them. But they are difficult to set
>up, so they are not really used much.

And the specification of "Accept-Language" is in rfc 3282 section 3
urn:ietf:rfc:3282 =

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3282#section-3 =


There is a specification for http protocol only in =

rfc 2616 section 14.4
urn:ietf:rfc:2616
http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.4
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-14.4


The RFC 2616 is currently updated by a working group of IETF and W3C =

http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/httpbis-charter.html
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis

If someone has bug-report or improvement about =

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p3-payload-02#section-6.4
or http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p3-payload-02#section-3.5
( urn:ietf:draft-ietf-httpbis-p3-payload-02 section 6.4 and 3.5), =

please send feedback to the forum (wich is a mailing list) =

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/ . =


See also =

http://www3.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/13
http://www3.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/113


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Extlang Debate
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There is nothing new that has been said that we didn't consider before.

Mark

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
wrote:

> Hi
>
> From reading through the various emails there would seem to be quite a
> body
> of people in favour of re-opening the extlang debate.  I know this is a
> late
> stage to be doing this but if there are problems with "synonyms" that
> would
> be solved with the inclusion of extlang I would be in favour of re-opening
> the debate.
>
> Randy, Martin?
>
> Best
>
> Debbie
>
> Debbie Garside
> CEO
>
> The World Language Documentation Centre
> Corner House
> Barn Street
> Haverfordwest
> Pembrokeshire SA61 1BW
> Wales UK
>
> Tel: 0044 1437 766441
> Fax: 0044 1437 766173
>
> Web: http://www.thewldc.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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There is nothing new that has been said that we didn&#39;t consider before.<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Debbie Garside &lt;<a href="mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk">debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Hi<br>
<br>
&gt;From reading through the various emails there would seem to be quite a body<br>
of people in favour of re-opening the extlang debate. &nbsp;I know this is a late<br>
stage to be doing this but if there are problems with &quot;synonyms&quot; that would<br>
be solved with the inclusion of extlang I would be in favour of re-opening<br>
the debate.<br>
<br>
Randy, Martin?<br>
<br>
Best<br>
<br>
Debbie<br>
<br>
Debbie Garside<br>
CEO<br>
<br>
The World Language Documentation Centre<br>
Corner House<br>
Barn Street<br>
Haverfordwest<br>
Pembrokeshire SA61 1BW<br>
Wales UK<br>
<br>
Tel: 0044 1437 766441<br>
Fax: 0044 1437 766173<br>
<br>
Web: <a href="http://www.thewldc.org" target="_blank">http://www.thewldc.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
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<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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_______________________________________________
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sun May  4 10:26:02 2008
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Subject: [Ltru] text proposition for extlang filtering by rfc 4647
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Hello, =


Below is a proposition of me to solve the issue of removing use of =

"Extended Language Subtags" in RFC 4646 bis =

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13#section-2.2.2 =

urn:ietf:id:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13 =

in favour of direct use of each language code. Please remember that I =

have missed or forgot the thread discussion which have reached to =

working group consensus about this remove. This is a draft. The =

wording is likely bad. Please give feedback. =


It is supposed to be an addendum of RFC 4647 urn:ietf:4647 section =

3.4 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.4 before "Default Values" =

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.4.1. I don't know how it could =

be published (rfc 4647 errata? rfc 4647 bis? working group note such =

in W3C http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#q75 ? RFC =

4646 bis updating RFC 4647?). =


begin addendum =


If no tag matches the language priority list, application MAY try/try =

find/search the macrolanguage (as defined by [ISO 639-3] =

http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#M =

http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#C =

http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp =

draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13 ) of the remaining primary language subtag. =


Examples: =

1 cmn -> zh
2 hsb -> wen
3 nb -> no
4 src -> sc


Interoperability issue
other macrolanguage lookup enginered/developed by/for one =

application SHOULD NOT be assumed interoperable and SHOULD =

not be shared between application (see =

draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13 section 4.5). =


Examples: =

1 zdj -> swb
3 gsw -> gem
2 gsw-fr -> fr
4 sr -> sh

end addendum =


Rationale: =


"Extlang issues" thread =

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg09788.html . =


When RFC 4647 was published, the working group was assuming use =

of "Extended Language Subtags" for RFC 4646 bis (see RFC 4646 =

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4646#section-2.2.2 ), that's why RFC 4647 do =

not mention fallback on macrolanguage, since zh-cmn -> zh does not =

need specific pipeline. =


If BCP 47 do not trust ISO 639-3 to write aa-bbb with right =

macrolangage prefix, maybe BCP 47 could trust ISO 639-3 to fallback =

from bbb to macrolangage tag. =


I have previously stated about Comorian. =


Although "sh" has been deprecated, it is still in the language subtags =

registry, and "Serbo-Croatian" name is still used. =


draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-02 section 9.1 alin=E9a 3 =

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-02#section-9.1 =

aka "send text". =



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Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 13:29:20 -0400
From: "Ira McDonald" <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>, "Ira McDonald" <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Hi Doug,

Sorry - I wasn't specifically responding to your comments at all.

I was expressing (poorly, obviously) my frustration with the fact
that the LTRU email threads too often jump from the abstract
(syntax of language tags) to the particular (use of language
tags) using only examples of the HTTP mechanisms and the
behavior of browsers.

XML itself (which has a dramatically broader scope of current
usage than HTTP/HTML) depends on language tags.

I'm pretty uncomfortable with the "and then a miracle happens"
logic that at some unspecified future date we'll migrate from
using the grandfathered "zh-cmn" to simply "cmn".  I agree
with Shawn that this future date may be imaginary.

Cheers,
- Ira


-- =

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
email: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
winter:
 579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176
 734-944-0094
summer:
 PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
 906-494-2434

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 1:11 PM, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> wrote:
> Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic at gmail dot com> wrote:
>
>
> > The universe is not *just* a web browser.
> >
>
>  Absolutely correct.  I'm not sure what I wrote that elicited that respon=
se.
> What I wrote was:
>
>
>
> >
> > > Is it possible to do cmn-min?
> > >
> >
> > No.
> >
>
>  Which is true, and would have been true even if we had gone ahead with
> extlangs, because 'min' (Minangkabau) would not have ever been an extlang
> under 'cmn' (Mandarin Chinese).  I think Edmon Chung meant to write
> "cmn-nan", because 'nan' is the correct subtag for Min Nan, but Min Nan a=
lso
> would not have been an extlang under Mandarin.  The
> "language-hyphen-language" syntax means "extended language hierarchy," not
> "user-defined fallback strategy."
>
>
>
> > "zh-cmn" fallback to "zh" would have worked (more or less) in most
> software.
> >
> > "cmn" fallback to "zh" is NOT going to work in most software in the fut=
ure
> (because it depends on "and then a miracle happens" logic).
> >
>
>  I completely agree with that, and made the same argument as you when the
> arguments against extlang began to surface.  But those arguments were what
> won the day, and that issue is closed.
>
>
>
> > Sticking scripts into language tags *in that location* is still a lousy
> idea, as Karen's comments make clear.
> >
>
>  That battle was fought already during development of RFC 4646.  But at
> least matching engines can be taught to pick apart a tag into its
> constituent subtags, and strip out the script subtag, without looking at =
the
> Registry; whereas the cmn/zh scenario does require matchers to consult the
> Registry, which seems unlikely to happen in practice, as you said.
>
>  Changing the position of script subtags at this point would be a massive=
ly
> destabilizing proposition, and almost certainly would not be acceptable to
> IETF.  Reintroducing extlangs would entail a huge amount of rethinking and
> rewriting, and delay, and I doubt this will be acceptable to IETF either.
>
>
>
>  --
>  Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
>  http://www.ewellic.org
>  http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
>  http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  =88
>
>
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Doug,

> BBC can play games with rotating regional flavors of Arabic just as easily
with or without extlangs.

This is drifting off the main topic, which is how 'ar' should be treated.
Whether or not extlangs were defined, the BBC could easily support a
difference between arb and apd. **The question is what they should do about
'ar', which they will continue to get for years to come, even in a 'best
case' scenario.**
**

   1. If someone who supplies 'ar' in their browser really means that
   they would be satisfied with ANY kind of Arabic, then it would be perfectly
   reasonable for the BBC to serve up ANY kind of Arabic in response to 'ar'.
   (your apparent position)
   2. If someone who supplies 'ar' in their browser normally means that
   they would be satisfied with only Standard Arabic, then it would be not be
   reasonable for the BBC to serve up anything but Standard Arabic in response
   to 'ar'. (my position)

Do you really think #1 is sensible?

[extlang discussion omitted]

If you really want to rehash extlang, let's make that a separate thread.


-- 
Mark

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Doug,<br><br>&gt; BBC can play games with rotating regional flavors of Arabic just as easily with or without extlangs.<br><br>This is drifting off the main topic, which is how &#39;ar&#39; should be treated. Whether or not extlangs were defined, the BBC could easily support a difference between arb and  apd. <i><b>*The question is what they should do about &#39;ar&#39;, which they will continue to get for years to come, even in a &#39;best case&#39; scenario.*</b></i><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><div><b></b><ol><li>If someone who supplies &#39;ar&#39; in their browser really means that they would be satisfied with ANY kind of Arabic, then it would be perfectly reasonable for the BBC to serve up ANY kind of Arabic in response to &#39;ar&#39;. (your apparent position)<br>
</li><li>If someone who supplies &#39;ar&#39; in their browser normally means that they would be satisfied
with only Standard Arabic, then it would be not be reasonable for the
BBC to serve up anything but Standard Arabic in response to &#39;ar&#39;. (my position)<br></li></ol>Do you really think #1 is sensible?<br></div><div><br>[extlang discussion omitted]<br><br>If you really want to rehash extlang, let&#39;s make that a separate thread.</div>
</div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html

1. In one of the fragments Shawn cites, we have:

When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human
speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is
customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might
use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional script), but the
audio track for the same language would be tagged "zh-cmn".

The point in this text is not about macrolanguages or grandfathered tags (it
is in a section about the use of script subtags), so that just muddies the
issue for readers.

My suggested fix is:

When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human
speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is
customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might
use the tag "uz-Arab" (Uzbek in Arabic script), but the audio track for the
same language should not be tagged "uz-Arab"; it should be tagged "uz". (The
tag "uz-Zxxx" can also be used where content is not written: Zxxx = "Code
for unwritten documents".)

The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that, starting at
"Some of the languages in the registry are labeled "macrolanguages" by ISO
639-3".

I've looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone has
concrete suggestions for additions or changed text, they should present
them.

Mark

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<a href="http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html</a><br><br>1. In one of the fragments Shawn cites, we have:<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">
When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human
speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is
customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie
might use the tag &quot;zh-cmn-Hant&quot; (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional
script), but the audio track for the same language would be tagged
&quot;zh-cmn&quot;.
<br></div><br>The point in this text is not about macrolanguages or grandfathered tags (it is in a section about the use of script subtags), so that just muddies the issue for readers.<br><br>My suggested fix is:<br><br>
<div style="margin-left: 40px;">When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human
speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is
customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie
might use the tag &quot;uz-Arab&quot; (Uzbek in Arabic script), but the audio track for the same language should not be tagged &quot;uz-Arab&quot;; it should be tagged
&quot;uz&quot;. (The tag &quot;uz-Zxxx&quot; can also be used where content is not written: Zxxx = &quot;Code for unwritten documents&quot;.)<br><br></div>The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that, starting at &quot;Some of the languages in the registry are labeled &quot;macrolanguages&quot; by ISO 639-3&quot;.<br>
<br>I&#39;ve looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone has concrete suggestions for additions or changed text, they should present them.<br><br>Mark<br>

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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> Google:  The main Google product, www.google.com, only lets me search 
> for "Chinese (Simplified)" and "Chinese (traditional)". Should I then 
> assume that it, in practise, *excludes* texts in Cantonese and Hakka? 

In practice, it is probably incapable of distinguishing between them
reliably, and even if it can, it probably costs too much.

-- 
Kill Gorgun!  Kill orc-folk!            John Cowan
No other words please Wild Men.         cowan@ccil.org
Drive away bad air and darkness         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with bright iron!   --Ghan-buri-Ghan    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Mark Davis scripsit:

>    1. If someone who supplies 'ar' in their browser really means that
>    they would be satisfied with ANY kind of Arabic, then it would be
>    perfectly reasonable for the BBC to serve up ANY kind of Arabic in
>    response to 'ar'.  (your apparent position)
>    2. If someone who supplies 'ar' in their browser normally means
>    that they would be satisfied with only Standard Arabic, then it
>    would be not be reasonable for the BBC to serve up anything but
>    Standard Arabic in response to 'ar'. (my position)

It probably isn't reasonable *for the Beeb* to serve up anything
but Standard Arabic; they probably don't even *have* anything else.
That does not mean that it is not reasonable for *anyone* to serve up
other Arabics in response to 'ar'; a radio-station site in Morocco might
very well serve Moroccan Arabic rather than Standard Arabic.  In Chad,
a site might serve French by default and Chadian Arabic to those who ask
for 'ar'; Standard Arabic is probably not useful in Chad at all.

-- 
That you can cover for the plentiful            John Cowan
and often gaping errors, misconstruals,         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
and disinformation in your posts                cowan@ccil.org
through sheer volume -- that is another
misconception.  --Mike to Peter
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On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 01:29:06PM -0700,
 Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote 
 a message of 185 lines which said:

> Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values. 

My main problem with language negotiation in HTTP, and the reason why
I did not configure my browser to list my favorite language (french)
first, is that HTTP make no distinction between original and
translated texts. If I say to the HTTP server "I prefer french, then
english", I get, most of the time, poorly translated and/or
out-of-date pages in french. (Just compare
http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/ and http://www.microsoft.com/fr/fr/.)

What I really would like to express is "I prefer original text in
french or english, then translated text in one of these two
languages." But that's work for RFC 4646 ter :-)
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] text proposition for extlang filtering by rfc 4647
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Doug Ewell wrote =


>Nicolas Krebs <nicolas1 dot krebs3 at netcourrier dot com> wrote:
>
>> If no tag matches the language priority list, application MAY try/try =

>> find/search the macrolanguage (as defined by [ISO 639-3]
>> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#M
>> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#C
>> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp
>> draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13 ) of the remaining primary language subtag.
>>
>> Examples:
>> 1 cmn -> zh
>> 2 hsb -> wen
>> 3 nb -> no
>> 4 src -> sc
>
>We are already planning to include the ISO 639-3-defined macrolanguage =

>in the Registry, in a new "Macrolanguage" field:
>
>%%
>Type: language
>Subtag: nb
>Description: Norwegian Bokm=E5l
>Added: 2005-10-16
>Macrolanguage: no
>Suppress-Script: Latn
>%%
>
>See http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-04.txt, =

>soon to be replaced by -05.
>
>This saves the user from having to go to the SIL site to find =

>macrolanguage information, which is consistent with the philosophy of =

>the Registry: to save users from having to go all over the place to get =

>tagging information.

ACK. =

"Macrolanguage Field" is already in draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09. =

I could have seen by reading it one more time. =

Thanks for the remark. =


New draft (i have also corrected the examples with values of =

draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-04): =


If no tag matches the language priority list, application MAY try to =

match the macrolanguage (if exist in the registry) of the remaining =

primary language subtag. See draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis section 3.1.9 =

"Macrolanguage Field"
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09#section-3.1.9

Examples: =

1 cmn -> zh
2 nn -> no
3 src -> sc
4 sr -> sh


Interoperability issue
Other macrolanguage lookup developed for one application =

SHOULD NOT be assumed interoperable and SHOULD =

not be shared between application =

(see draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13 section 4.5). =


Examples: =

1 zdj -> swb
2 hsb -> wen
3 gsw-fr -> fr
4 gsw -> gem






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On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 03:38:08PM +0200,
 Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no> wrote =

 a message of 100 lines which said:

>    3. and authors tend to think that the tags should work in a
>       hierarchical way, meaning that they find 'no-nn' and 'no-nb' more
>       natural than 'nn-NO' and 'nb-NO'. The official goverment web site
>       of Norway currently has this error, except that instead of nn they
>       write ny: 'no-NY', and they - as well - use 'no' for Bokm=E5l. See
>       http://www.regjeringa.no ;

[Note: the mistake in this site seems to be only in the Dublin Core
metadata, the xml:lang and the HTML lang attribute seems correct.]

This is an issue what we'll have, whatever technical choice we
make. Users will make mistakes, not because LTRU work is
undecipherable but because language issues are complicated. Most of
this issue is out of scope for the RFC. Of course, we should be sure
the RFC is clear and well-explained but that won't make all Web sites
valid.

More specifically, in the case of extlangs, the discussion a few
months ago clearly showed that we will have misunderstandings in both
cases (with or without extlangs).

IMHO, this is a meta-issue which requires a different kind of effort:
education, capacity building, etc. If someone wants to write texts for
http://www.langtag.net/ "Users" section, for instance on the proper
tagging of norwegian and chinese, that would be great. Also, did you
report the problem to the webmaster of http://www.regjeringa.no?

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To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Subject: [Ltru] Pinyin in language tags (Was: I'm really confused by chinese
	in 3066bis
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On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 09:31:03PM -0700,
 Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote 
 a message of 2989 lines which said:

> The tag "zh-Latn" would mean "Chinese written in Latin script", and
> could be used for Chinese written in Pinyin.

I'm not sure. There are other transliteration systems in Latin. Until
very recently, chinese names in french books and newspapers were
transcribed with another system. 

You can use Arabic as an example: there is no "pinyin", no standard
transliteration so ar-Latn is not specific enough.

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On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 02:42:36PM -0600,
 Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> wrote 
 a message of 8 lines which said:

> does anyone think it would be desirable to un-deprecate the
> following subtag?  %%Type: region Subtag: FX Description:
> Metropolitan France

No, keep it deprecated, until ISO 3166 changes its status.

Rationale: noone ever used it.
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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Pinyin in language tags (Was: I'm really confused by
	chinese in 3066bis
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Chinese written in Pinyin can be tagged "zh-Latn", so it is true as Peter
says that it "could be used for Chinese written in Pinyin".

It is also true that that is not sufficient to tell between Pinyin and (say)
WG; we need to register some additional variant tags for different
transliteration methods.

Mark

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
wrote:

> On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 09:31:03PM -0700,
>  Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote
>  a message of 2989 lines which said:
>
> > The tag "zh-Latn" would mean "Chinese written in Latin script", and
> > could be used for Chinese written in Pinyin.
>
> I'm not sure. There are other transliteration systems in Latin. Until
> very recently, chinese names in french books and newspapers were
> transcribed with another system.
>
> You can use Arabic as an example: there is no "pinyin", no standard
> transliteration so ar-Latn is not specific enough.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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Chinese written in Pinyin can be tagged &quot;zh-Latn&quot;, so it is true as Peter says that it &quot;could be used for Chinese written in Pinyin&quot;.<br><br>It is also true that that is not sufficient to tell between Pinyin and (say) WG; we need to register some additional variant tags for different transliteration methods.<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer &lt;<a href="mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">bortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 09:31:03PM -0700,<br>
&nbsp;Peter Constable &lt;<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote<br>
&nbsp;a message of 2989 lines which said:<br>
<br>
&gt; The tag &quot;zh-Latn&quot; would mean &quot;Chinese written in Latin script&quot;, and<br>
&gt; could be used for Chinese written in Pinyin.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m not sure. There are other transliteration systems in Latin. Until<br>
very recently, chinese names in french books and newspapers were<br>
transcribed with another system.<br>
<br>
You can use Arabic as an example: there is no &quot;pinyin&quot;, no standard<br>
transliteration so ar-Latn is not specific enough.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] text proposition for extlang filtering by rfc 4647
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Nicolas Krebs 2008-05-04 23.03:
> New draft (i have also corrected the examples with values of 
> draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-04): 
>
> If no tag matches the language priority list, application MAY try to 
> match the macrolanguage (if exist in the registry) of the remaining 
> primary language subtag. See draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis section 3.1.9 
> "Macrolanguage Field"
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09#section-3.1.9
>
> Examples: 
> 1 cmn -> zh
> 2 nn -> no
> 3 src -> sc
> 4 sr -> sh
>   

For a macrolanguage with 3 codes but only two options, trying to match 
the macrolangauge allready  implies that one are able to accept both 
options.  And since the above text says that an application should go 
through the priority list before consulting the macrolanguage, then, 
when consulting the macrolanguage, it would be illogical if the 
application stopped after having tried to get a match for the 
macrolanguage. In other words, it should also try to match the last and, 
in this context, synonymous tag.

In 639-3 I counted around 22 macrolanguages, including Norwegian, for 
which the above is true.

Hence, I propose this text, to follow immediately after Nicolas' text above:

    An application which tries to match a macrolanguage of a primary
    language subtag, as specified above, SHOULD, on the condition that
    the macrolanguage covers only 2 languages, also lookup the
    alternative representation of that macrolanguage.

    Examples:
    1 nn  -> no -> nb
    2 nb  -> no -> nn
    3 tw  -> ak -> fat
    4 fat -> ak -> tw

-- 
leif halvard silli
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Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:56:58 -0400
From: "Ira McDonald" <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, 
	"Ira McDonald" <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language tag education and negotiation
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Hi Stephane,

Actually, I think it's *not* work for RFC 4646 ter.

The metadata for original versus translation doesn't belong in
a language tag.  Continuing to add optional fields to language
tags is just going to make like for more difficult for all of us.

Cheers,
- Ira


-- 
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
email: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
winter:
 579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176
 734-944-0094
summer:
 PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
 906-494-2434

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote:
> On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 01:29:06PM -0700,
>   Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote
>
>  a message of 185 lines which said:
>
>  > Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values.
>
>  My main problem with language negotiation in HTTP, and the reason why
>  I did not configure my browser to list my favorite language (french)
>  first, is that HTTP make no distinction between original and
>  translated texts. If I say to the HTTP server "I prefer french, then
>  english", I get, most of the time, poorly translated and/or
>  out-of-date pages in french. (Just compare
>  http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/ and http://www.microsoft.com/fr/fr/.)
>
>  What I really would like to express is "I prefer original text in
>  french or english, then translated text in one of these two
>  languages." But that's work for RFC 4646 ter :-)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  Ltru mailing list
>  Ltru@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
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Stephane Bortzmeyer 2008-05-04 23.17:
> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 03:38:08PM +0200,
>  Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no> wrote =

>  a message of 100 lines which said:
>
> >    3. and authors tend to think that the tags should work in a
> >       hierarchical way, meaning that they find 'no-nn' and 'no-nb' more
> >       natural than 'nn-NO' and 'nb-NO'. The official goverment web site
> >       of Norway currently has this error, except that instead of nn they
> >       write ny: 'no-NY', and they - as well - use 'no' for Bokm=E5l. See
> >       http://www.regjeringa.no ;
>
> [Note: the mistake in this site seems to be only in the Dublin Core
> metadata, the xml:lang and the HTML lang attribute seems correct.]
>   =


You will also find this META tag:
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Language" content=3D"NO-NY" />

> IMHO, this is a meta-issue which requires a different kind of effort:
> education, capacity building, etc. If someone wants to write texts for
> http://www.langtag.net/ "Users" section, for instance on the proper
> tagging of norwegian and chinese, that would be great. Also, did you
> report the problem to the webmaster of http://www.regjeringa.no?
>   =


They are aware of it. Writing for Langtag.net is good tip. Thanks.
-- =

leif halvard silli


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:42 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
...
> 2.  I've added a Comments field to the existing record for 'kha', as 
> shown below, per Debbie's request and others' assent.  I am not planning 
> to add any explanatory text about this to the prose.  Does anyone 
> disagree with this?
> 
> %%
> Type: language
> Subtag: kha
> Description: Khasi
> Added: 2005-10-16
> Comments: as of 2008-04-21 this subtag does not include Lynghgam; see
>   lyg
> %%
...

Is it Lynghgam or Lyngngam?

Though I don't feel strongly about the comment as such, I do think Stephane's
rationale regarding FX applies here: from the history recounted on the ietf-languages
list, it sounds like no one is known to have ever actually *used* kha for Lyngngam when
tagging material.  If that is correct, the comment doesn't seem to have much point.

Randy

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language tag education and negotiation
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Ira McDonald wrote:
> Hi Stephane,
>
> Actually, I think it's *not* work for RFC 4646 ter.
>
> The metadata for original versus translation doesn't belong in
> a language tag.  Continuing to add optional fields to language
> tags is just going to make like for more difficult for all of us.
>   

+1.

Felix

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
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Hi -

As technical contributor...

> From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
>
> Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer at nic dot fr> wrote:
> 
> >> does anyone think it would be desirable to un-deprecate the
> >> following subtag?  %%Type: region Subtag: FX Description:
> >> Metropolitan France
> >
> > No, keep it deprecated, until ISO 3166 changes its status.
> 
> Just to play devil's advocate, its status within ISO 3166 is the same as 
> for the other exceptionally reserved code elements such as AC that we 
> are making into (non-deprecated) region subtags.
> 
> > Rationale: noone ever used it.
> 
> Just to play devil's advocate, are we in a position to say this?

If there's any question, then the discussion and subsequent decision
should be left to ietf-languages@iana.org and the LSR.  We're supposed
to be focused on the process here, and the content of the "bulk update"
we hand off to IANA should not in general require item-by-item discussion.
If we are going to get bogged down in the details of any *specific* subtags,
I suggest we consider removing each such subtag from 4645-bis, and request
that their proponents submit them as individual requests to ietf-languages@iana.org.

Randy

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Extlang issues
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-05 00.26:
> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:

>> The extlang tags could also have "sent a message" about an important 
>> problem. And the "energy" from that could be used to also solve the 
>> problem for those langauges where it was resolved thatit would not be 
>> possible to use that mechanism.
>
> I don't think I follow this.  Our goal is to provide language tagging 
> options that balance flexibility, interoperability, and stability, not 
> to "send a message" to users or ISO maintenance authorities.  
> Sometimes we send a message explicitly, such as helping to persuade 
> ISO 3166/MA to wait 50 years instead of 5 before recycling old code 
> elements, but in general we try not to use BCP 47 or the Registry for 
> any sort of activism.

If you put it that way, then I must agree with you.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] text proposition for extlang filtering by rfc 4647
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The goal for fallback is to provide the most likely satisfactory language,
in the absence of a exact match. A poor choice of fallback causes problems;
where the fallback language is not likely to be understood, it can produce
much worse results than fallback to a default (or a subsequent language in a
Language Priority List).

Macrolanguages have to be used very, very carefully for fallback, because
there no guarantee at all that speakers of two microlanguages (of the same
macro language) are mutually comprehensible. In some cases it is true, but
in most cases, it is not.

In particular cases, such as Norwegian, what you list is probably a desired
fallback, with one addition.

   1. nn -> no -> nb
   2. nb -> no -> nn
   3. no -> nb -> nn

But Norwegian is a particularly easy case for macrolanguages, because it is
associated with a single country and script, and most readers of nn can also
read nb.

The desired fallback chain with macro/microlanguages in other cases gets
much more complicated, where the languages are spoken in multiple regions,
or have multiple scripts, or vary in degrees of comprehension. Moreover,
focusing on macrolanguages can overshadow other better fallback
relationships; ro and mo are far more closely related (and useful for
fallbacks) than most microlanguages are, as are tl and fil. Moreover, even
unrelated languages may be better fallbacks than closely related ones, such
as br -> fr.

So macrolanguages are best viewed as very useful information for people to
use in creating fallbacks, but should not be taken as defining those
fallbacks.

Mark

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no> wrote:

> Nicolas Krebs 2008-05-04 23.03:
> > New draft (i have also corrected the examples with values of
> > draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-04):
> >
> > If no tag matches the language priority list, application MAY try to
> > match the macrolanguage (if exist in the registry) of the remaining
> > primary language subtag. See draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis section 3.1.9
> > "Macrolanguage Field"
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09#section-3.1.9
> >
> > Examples:
> > 1 cmn -> zh
> > 2 nn -> no
> > 3 src -> sc
> > 4 sr -> sh
> >
>
> For a macrolanguage with 3 codes but only two options, trying to match
> the macrolangauge allready  implies that one are able to accept both
> options.  And since the above text says that an application should go
> through the priority list before consulting the macrolanguage, then,
> when consulting the macrolanguage, it would be illogical if the
> application stopped after having tried to get a match for the
> macrolanguage. In other words, it should also try to match the last and,
> in this context, synonymous tag.
>
> In 639-3 I counted around 22 macrolanguages, including Norwegian, for
> which the above is true.
>
> Hence, I propose this text, to follow immediately after Nicolas' text
> above:
>
>    An application which tries to match a macrolanguage of a primary
>    language subtag, as specified above, SHOULD, on the condition that
>    the macrolanguage covers only 2 languages, also lookup the
>    alternative representation of that macrolanguage.
>
>    Examples:
>    1 nn  -> no -> nb
>    2 nb  -> no -> nn
>    3 tw  -> ak -> fat
>    4 fat -> ak -> tw
>
> --
> leif halvard silli
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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The goal for fallback is to provide the most likely satisfactory language, in the absence of a exact match. A poor choice of fallback causes problems; where the fallback language is not likely to be understood, it can produce much worse results than fallback to a default (or a subsequent language in a Language Priority List).<br>
<br>Macrolanguages have to be used very, very carefully for fallback, because there no guarantee at all that speakers of two microlanguages (of the same macro language) are mutually comprehensible. In some cases it is true, but in most cases, it is not. <br>
<br>In particular cases, such as Norwegian, what you list is probably a desired fallback, with one addition. <br><ol><li>nn -&gt; no -&gt; nb</li><li>nb -&gt; no -&gt; nn</li><li>no -&gt; nb -&gt; nn<br></li></ol>But Norwegian is a particularly easy case for macrolanguages, because it is associated with a single country and script, and most readers of nn can also read nb.<br>
<br>The desired fallback chain with macro/microlanguages in other cases gets much more complicated, where the languages are spoken in multiple regions, or have multiple scripts, or vary in degrees of comprehension. Moreover, focusing on macrolanguages can overshadow other better fallback relationships; ro and mo are far more closely related (and useful for fallbacks) than most microlanguages are, as are tl and fil. Moreover, even unrelated languages may be better fallbacks than closely related ones, such as br -&gt; fr.<br>
<br>So macrolanguages are best viewed as very useful information for people to use in creating fallbacks, but should not be taken as defining those fallbacks.<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Leif Halvard Silli &lt;<a href="mailto:lhs@malform.no">lhs@malform.no</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Nicolas Krebs 2008-05-04 23.03:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; New draft (i have also corrected the examples with values of<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-04):<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If no tag matches the language priority list, application MAY try to<br>
&gt; match the macrolanguage (if exist in the registry) of the remaining<br>
&gt; primary language subtag. See draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis section 3.1.9<br>
&gt; &quot;Macrolanguage Field&quot;<br>
&gt; <a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09#section-3.1.9" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09#section-3.1.9</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Examples:<br>
&gt; 1 cmn -&gt; zh<br>
&gt; 2 nn -&gt; no<br>
&gt; 3 src -&gt; sc<br>
&gt; 4 sr -&gt; sh<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>For a macrolanguage with 3 codes but only two options, trying to match<br>
the macrolangauge allready &nbsp;implies that one are able to accept both<br>
options. &nbsp;And since the above text says that an application should go<br>
through the priority list before consulting the macrolanguage, then,<br>
when consulting the macrolanguage, it would be illogical if the<br>
application stopped after having tried to get a match for the<br>
macrolanguage. In other words, it should also try to match the last and,<br>
in this context, synonymous tag.<br>
<br>
In 639-3 I counted around 22 macrolanguages, including Norwegian, for<br>
which the above is true.<br>
<br>
Hence, I propose this text, to follow immediately after Nicolas&#39; text above:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;An application which tries to match a macrolanguage of a primary<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;language subtag, as specified above, SHOULD, on the condition that<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;the macrolanguage covers only 2 languages, also lookup the<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;alternative representation of that macrolanguage.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;Examples:<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;1 nn &nbsp;-&gt; no -&gt; nb<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;2 nb &nbsp;-&gt; no -&gt; nn<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;3 tw &nbsp;-&gt; ak -&gt; fat<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;4 fat -&gt; ak -&gt; tw<br>
<br>
--<br>
<font color="#888888">leif halvard silli<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sun May  4 17:35:37 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] text proposition for extlang filtering by rfc 4647
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Mark Davis 2008-05-05 01.29:
> [....]
> In particular cases, such as Norwegian, what you list is probably a desired
> fallback, with one addition.
>
>    1. nn -> no -> nb
>    2. nb -> no -> nn
>    3. no -> nb -> nn
>   

You forgot 4. no -> nn -> nb. However, you are blurring my message.

Specifying what applications MAY do when the language preferences are 
set up using the macrolanguage tag, is a different usecase from the one 
mentioned in the text of Nicolas. Therefore I did not propose any thing 
for that usecase. And I do not want to make any proposal for it either. 
(And if I should change my mind about that, then I do not want to have 
it mangled up with the issue which I take up in this text.)

> But Norwegian is a particularly easy case [...]
>   
> [...] Moreover, even unrelated languages may be better 
> fallbacks than closely related ones, such as br -> fr.



There are several languages which are simple to cover, when we limit the 
options to the usecase for which Nicolas' proposal which said that 
"application *MAY* try to  match the macrolanguage".

My proposal simply said that when that application chooses to do what it 
MAY do, namely to look up the macrolanguage, then, as long as the 
macrolanguage only cover two languages,  then it SHOULD also look up the 
other languga, since looking up the macrolanguage by default is a yes to 
the risk of getting the other language anyhow. For those macrolanguages 
which covers more than 2 languages, there is no mathematical certainity 
about this, so therefore I did not make any proposal for them.

Thus I maintain my proposal.


> On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no> wrote:
>
> > Nicolas Krebs 2008-05-04 23.03:
> > > New draft (i have also corrected the examples with values of
> > > draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-04):
> > >
> > > If no tag matches the language priority list, application MAY try to
> > > match the macrolanguage (if exist in the registry) of the remaining
> > > primary language subtag. See draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis section 3.1.9
> > > "Macrolanguage Field"
> > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09#section-3.1.9
> > >
> > > Examples:
> > > 1 cmn -> zh
> > > 2 nn -> no
> > > 3 src -> sc
> > > 4 sr -> sh
> > >
> >
> > For a macrolanguage with 3 codes but only two options, trying to match
> > the macrolangauge allready  implies that one are able to accept both
> > options.  And since the above text says that an application should go
> > through the priority list before consulting the macrolanguage, then,
> > when consulting the macrolanguage, it would be illogical if the
> > application stopped after having tried to get a match for the
> > macrolanguage. In other words, it should also try to match the last and,
> > in this context, synonymous tag.
> >
> > In 639-3 I counted around 22 macrolanguages, including Norwegian, for
> > which the above is true.
> >
> > Hence, I propose this text, to follow immediately after Nicolas' text
> > above:
> >
> >    An application which tries to match a macrolanguage of a primary
> >    language subtag, as specified above, SHOULD, on the condition that
> >    the macrolanguage covers only 2 languages, also lookup the
> >    alternative representation of that macrolanguage.
> >
> >    Examples:
> >    1 nn  -> no -> nb
> >    2 nb  -> no -> nn
> >    3 tw  -> ak -> fat
> >    4 fat -> ak -> tw
>   
-- 
leif halvard silli


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From: "Andrew Cunningham" <lang.support@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language tag education and negotiation
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What you're discussing is metadata about an object (not language
tagging), and belongs in an appropriate metadata standard

assuming web developers use it

in html its possible to have link elements point to alternative
translations of a document, but i've rarely seem it implemented.

Andrew

2008/5/5 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>:
> On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 01:29:06PM -0700,
>   Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote
>
>  a message of 185 lines which said:
>
>  > Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values.
>
>  My main problem with language negotiation in HTTP, and the reason why
>  I did not configure my browser to list my favorite language (french)
>  first, is that HTTP make no distinction between original and
>  translated texts. If I say to the HTTP server "I prefer french, then
>  english", I get, most of the time, poorly translated and/or
>  out-of-date pages in french. (Just compare
>  http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/ and http://www.microsoft.com/fr/fr/.)
>
>  What I really would like to express is "I prefer original text in
>  french or english, then translated text in one of these two
>  languages." But that's work for RFC 4646 ter :-)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  Ltru mailing list
>  Ltru@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
lang.support@gmail.com
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-05 03.36:
> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
>
> > Hence, I propose this text, to follow immediately after Nicolas' text 
> > above:
> >
> > An application which tries to match a macrolanguage of a primary 
> > language subtag, as specified above, SHOULD, on the condition that the 
> > macrolanguage covers only 2 languages, also lookup the alternative 
> > representation of that macrolanguage.
> >
> > Examples:
> > 1 nn  -> no -> nb
> > 2 nb  -> no -> nn
> > 3 tw  -> ak -> fat
> > 4 fat -> ak -> tw
>
> This is starting to become too detailed and too dependent on special 
> cases.  Matching at this level is too much an individual decision -- see 
> Mark's comment about Breton falling back to French -- and the condition 
> that the macrolanguage encompasses exactly two languages seems unrelated 
> to whether there is any mutual intelligibility between the two.  I don't 
> favor this.
>   

Firstly, I interpreted Nicolas' - and thus mine - proposal as a "backup 
mechanism" for server/user applications if the language list does not 
give a match. Having said that, then,

   1. how does my proposal take avay the individual's ability to decide
      on his/her own? (Usecase, please.)
   2. Only taking place if the MAY-lookup-macrolanguage rule that
      Nicolas proposed, is followed,  how is it then, for the affected
      languages, really any different from his proposal?
   3. Yes, I understand Breton/French can be a good fallback for breton
      speakers and even more so Romanian for Moldovan speakers. But what
      relevance does that have to this proposal?

And as for Mark's reply to my message, he said that, quote:

    "Moreover, focusing on macrolanguages can overshadow other better
    fallback".

You have just teached me about the uselessness of using RFCs to send 
messages. So let's forget that and look at things calmly. Doing what I 
propose is a discrete and spesific use of the macrolanguage consept. We 
should not avoid doing a logical thing just to send a message.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Randy Presuhn'" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>,
	"'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
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Randy wrote:

from
> the history recounted on the ietf-languages list, it sounds
> like no one is known to have ever actually *used* kha for
> Lyngngam when tagging material.  If that is correct, the
> comment doesn't seem to have much point.

http://www.language-archives.org/item/oai:sil.org:37468

I have heard one or two comments like this over the past few weeks and I
think it is a little silly to believe that members of IETF-LTRU could
possibly know what the language tagging community of the world has used or
not used.

Best regards

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: 04 May 2008 23:10
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
>
> Hi -
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> > To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:42 PM
> > Subject: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
> ...
> > 2.  I've added a Comments field to the existing record for
> 'kha', as
> > shown below, per Debbie's request and others' assent.  I am not
> > planning to add any explanatory text about this to the prose.  Does
> > anyone disagree with this?
> >
> > %%
> > Type: language
> > Subtag: kha
> > Description: Khasi
> > Added: 2005-10-16
> > Comments: as of 2008-04-21 this subtag does not include
> Lynghgam; see
> >   lyg
> > %%
> ...
>
> Is it Lynghgam or Lyngngam?
>
> Though I don't feel strongly about the comment as such, I do
> think Stephane's rationale regarding FX applies here: from
> the history recounted on the ietf-languages list, it sounds
> like no one is known to have ever actually *used* kha for
> Lyngngam when tagging material.  If that is correct, the
> comment doesn't seem to have much point.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:15:38 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
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On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 03:54:36PM -0600,
 Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> wrote 
 a message of 21 lines which said:

> > > %%Type: region Subtag: FX Description:
> > > Metropolitan France
> >
> >No, keep it deprecated, until ISO 3166 changes its status.
> 
> Just to play devil's advocate, its status within ISO 3166 is the same as 
> for the other exceptionally reserved code elements such as AC 

It is easy to find an actual use for AC (the TLD ".ac", created by
Postel in violation of the rules of RFC 1591, but nevertheless
actually used). You won't find an actual use for FX.
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Mon May  5 02:45:47 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] text proposition for extlang filtering by rfc 4647
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-05 05.59:
> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
>
>>> > Hence, I propose this text, to follow immediately after Nicolas' > 
>>> text
>>> > above:
>>> >
>>> > An application which tries to match a macrolanguage of a primary
>>> > language subtag, as specified above, SHOULD, on the condition that 
>>> > the
>>> > macrolanguage covers only 2 languages, also lookup the alternative
>>> > representation of that macrolanguage.
>>> >
>>> > Examples:
>>> > 1 nn  -> no -> nb
>>> > 2 nb  -> no -> nn
>>> > 3 tw  -> ak -> fat
>>> > 4 fat -> ak -> tw
>>>
>>> This is starting to become too detailed and too dependent on special
>>> cases.  Matching at this level is too much an individual decision 
>>> --  see
>>> Mark's comment about Breton falling back to French -- and the condition
>>> that the macrolanguage encompasses exactly two languages seems 
>>> unrelated
>>> to whether there is any mutual intelligibility between the two.  I 
>>> don't
>>> favor this.
>>
>> Firstly, I interpreted Nicolas' - and thus mine - proposal as a 
>> "backup mechanism" for server/user applications if the language list 
>> does not give a match.
>
> Nicolas' proposal is very consistent with what Section 4.1 of 
> draft-4646bis already says about using macrolanguages for matching.  
> It presumes only that there may be some useful relationship between 
> the macrolanguage and its encompassed languages, which is generally 
> true although the nature of the relationship is undefined.  It uses 
> the word MAY carefully to reflect this.

It uses MAY to indicate that the implementor should evaluate before 
implementing this behaviour.

> Your addendum goes beyond this, presuming a useful relationship 
> between languages which are encompassed by the same macrolanguage.  
> That is a considerably more tenuous presumption, and has nothing 
> really to do with whether there are only two encompassed languages.  
> It appears to be tailored to the specific cases (Norwegian and Akan) 
> where the encompassed languages are more like dialects.  It does not 
> necessarily apply to other cases like Northern Uzbek and Southern 
> Uzbek, which are also the only two languages encompassed by a single 
> macrolanguage (Uzbek) but which do not appear to share a large degree 
> of mutual intelligibility.

I see only one possibly problematic situation: Given macrolangauge A 
with microlangauge B and C, and if the tag for macrolanguage A in 
reality only were used for resources from microlanguage B and no 
association from C to A genererally were assumed, then, firstly it would 
be a strange macrolangauge tag, and secondly, in that strange situation 
to have a request for B ending up as a request for C, could be 
problematic, provided the server were offering C, but not B. 

As workaround, the server could then link A to a third default language D.

Or, if there were no other options than C, then I see no problem with 
serving it.

> At the least, it's not the kind of thing that should be slipped in at 
> the 11th hour without some serious discussion, which I realize is what 
> you are trying to initiate.
>
>> Having said that, then,
>>
>>   1. how does my proposal take avay the individual's ability to decide
>>      on his/her own? (Usecase, please.)
>
> The word SHOULD really doesn't belong in something like this, even 
> when dovetailed onto Nicolas' MAY.  Nicolas' wording:
>
> "If no tag matches the language priority list, application MAY try to 
> match the macrolanguage (if exist in the registry) of the remaining 
> primary language subtag."
>
> seems more appropriate.

Given the situation I mentioned above, I will change the wording from 
SHOULD to MAY. Does that make it better, do you feel?

>>   2. Only taking place if the MAY-lookup-macrolanguage rule that
>>      Nicolas proposed, is followed,  how is it then, for the affected
>>      languages, really any different from his proposal?
>
> Going from Twi "up to" Akan is not at all the same as going "back down 
> the hill" to Fanti, from a tag-matching standpoint.

If both actively share the macrolangague tag, then I see no problem. 
Then there would allready be a condidition in which users of both 
languages meet each others languages. And then it would be better to 
formalize that relationship, so to speak. It is easier to break out of a 
relationship that is aknowledged, than having to break out, somehow, 
from a relationship that the parties and the thirdparties do not 
aknowledge as existing, but which is still very evident. I think I speak 
from experience.

>>   3. Yes, I understand Breton/French can be a good fallback for breton
>>      speakers and even more so Romanian for Moldovan speakers. But
>>      what relevance does that have to this proposal?
>
> I believe Mark's point is that, when the "macrolanguage" connection 
> between languages becomes this tenuous and ill-defined, it's best to 
> let users defined their preferred fallback instead of using SHOULD in 
> this way.

I will change the proposal to say MAY.

I felt that Mark's comments were quite general. More spesificly, he 
compared Language Preference Lists which the user or the 
developer/localizer defines, with Nicola's MAY-fallback-mechanism, which 
only steps in *after* that choices of the Language Preference List.

My addendum will not prevent users from adding their preferrered 
languages. The languages that they add will come before the effect of 
mine and Nicolas' proposal.

The thing is also that a users might not understand what he does - or 
rather the consequences thereof - if he for instance excludes Nynorsk 
from his preferred languages. And the possible burdon the user suffer 
really is minuscle and seldom and easily worked around.

Trying to save the user from the consequenes of making affectious and 
pointless "I say no" choices of the kind "oh, I hate Nynorsk so I don't 
include that" is good. The language preference list of a browser is not 
a voting machine.

>> And as for Mark's reply to my message, he said that, quote:
>>
>>    "Moreover, focusing on macrolanguages can overshadow other better
>>    fallback".
>>
>> You have just teached me about the uselessness of using RFCs to send
>> messages. So let's forget that and look at things calmly. Doing what I
>> propose is a discrete and spesific use of the macrolanguage consept.
>> We should not avoid doing a logical thing just to send a message.
>
> I don't think anyone here is trying to "send a message," as I said 
> earlier.  We want to define the best matching strategies, and to 
> recognize when we should stop defining because the individual user has 
> better information than we do.

Then I hope that my proposal can be let in or let out based on a 
concrete evaluation, rather  than being based on general points about 
the concept of macrolanguage.
-- 
leif halvard silli

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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
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On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 11:51:29AM +0200,
 Elisabeth Porteneuve <elisabeth.porteneuve@cetp.ipsl.fr> wrote 
 a message of 8 lines which said:

> Those who asked ISO 3166/MA for FX (or AC or any other exceptionnaly
> reserved code) had their reasons,

You can turn the reasoning back: those who asked for an exceptionally
reserved code and not a regular code, had their reasons.

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
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Debbie Garside scripsit:

> http://www.language-archives.org/item/oai:sil.org:37468

That's actually a SIL (aka ISO 639-3/RA) listing for the very article
that forms the basis of the claim that Lyngngam isn't a dialect of Khasi.
So I don't think it counts: the metadata is undermined by the content!

> I have heard one or two comments like this over the past few weeks and I
> think it is a little silly to believe that members of IETF-LTRU could
> possibly know what the language tagging community of the world has used or
> not used.

Not us, but SIL itself.

-- 
There is no real going back.  Though I          John Cowan
may come to the Shire, it will not seem         cowan@ccil.org
the same; for I shall not be the same.          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth,
and a long burden.  Where shall I find rest?           --Frodo
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Hi John

I am hearing this exact same thing today with regard to FX!  My point is, we
cannot possibly be expected to know whether subtags have been used or not
used and therefore should not make decisions based on "there is no evidence
of usage".  According to who?  A few so called experts on IETF-LTRU?  It is
ludicrous and would make a mockery of BCP 47 IMHO.

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]
> Sent: 05 May 2008 15:07
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: 'Randy Presuhn'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
>
> Debbie Garside scripsit:
>
> > http://www.language-archives.org/item/oai:sil.org:37468
>
> That's actually a SIL (aka ISO 639-3/RA) listing for the very
> article that forms the basis of the claim that Lyngngam isn't
> a dialect of Khasi.
> So I don't think it counts: the metadata is undermined by the content!
>
> > I have heard one or two comments like this over the past
> few weeks and
> > I think it is a little silly to believe that members of IETF-LTRU
> > could possibly know what the language tagging community of
> the world
> > has used or not used.
>
> Not us, but SIL itself.
>
> --
> There is no real going back.  Though I          John Cowan
> may come to the Shire, it will not seem         cowan@ccil.org
> the same; for I shall not be the same.
> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth,
> and a long burden.  Where shall I find rest?           --Frodo
>
>
>
>




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On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:43:25PM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote 
 a message of 56 lines which said:

> I am hearing this exact same thing today with regard to FX!  My
> point is, we cannot possibly be expected to know whether subtags
> have been used or not used

May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at least on
the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They probably have it
somewhere.

X % of HTML pages have a lang or xml:lang attribute
X % of the tags have only one subtag, the language
X % of the tags are well-formed
X % of the tags are valid
Complete list of language subtags seen in the wild
etc...
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To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Concrete text fixes (Re: I'm really confused by chinese
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I agree that this resolves my confusion with this text, and that its best t=
o use an example that doesn't have the macrolanguage issue.

- Shawn
________________________________
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis=
 [mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:55 AM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: [Ltru] Concrete text fixes (Re: I'm really confused by chinese in =
3066bis)

http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html

1. In one of the fragments Shawn cites, we have:

When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human speec=
h), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is customari=
ly written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might use the =
tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional script), but the audio tr=
ack for the same language would be tagged "zh-cmn".

The point in this text is not about macrolanguages or grandfathered tags (i=
t is in a section about the use of script subtags), so that just muddies th=
e issue for readers.

My suggested fix is:

When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human speec=
h), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is customari=
ly written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might use the =
tag "uz-Arab" (Uzbek in Arabic script), but the audio track for the same la=
nguage should not be tagged "uz-Arab"; it should be tagged "uz". (The tag "=
uz-Zxxx" can also be used where content is not written: Zxxx =3D "Code for =
unwritten documents".)

The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that, starting a=
t "Some of the languages in the registry are labeled "macrolanguages" by IS=
O 639-3".

I've looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone has conc=
rete suggestions for additions or changed text, they should present them.

Mark

--_000_C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561554BEA74NAEXMSGC116re_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html dir=3D"ltr"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<meta content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6001.18023" name=3D"GENERATOR">
<style title=3D"owaParaStyle">P {
	MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px
}
</style>
</head>
<body ocsi=3D"x">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">I agree=
 that this resolves my confusion with this text, and that its best to use a=
n example that doesn't have the macrolanguage issue.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2">- Shawn</font></div>
<div id=3D"divRpF376986" style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ltru] Concrete text fixes (Re: I'm really confused by chin=
ese in 3066bis)<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div><a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.h=
tml" target=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646b=
is-13.html</a><br>
<br>
1. In one of the fragments Shawn cites, we have:<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 40px">When labeling content that is unwritten (s=
uch as a recording of human speech), the script subtag should not be used, =
even if the language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the su=
btitles to a movie might use the tag
 &quot;zh-cmn-Hant&quot; (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional script), but the a=
udio track for the same language would be tagged &quot;zh-cmn&quot;.
<br>
</div>
<br>
The point in this text is not about macrolanguages or grandfathered tags (i=
t is in a section about the use of script subtags), so that just muddies th=
e issue for readers.<br>
<br>
My suggested fix is:<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 40px">When labeling content that is unwritten (s=
uch as a recording of human speech), the script subtag should not be used, =
even if the language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the su=
btitles to a movie might use the tag
 &quot;uz-Arab&quot; (Uzbek in Arabic script), but the audio track for the =
same language should not be tagged &quot;uz-Arab&quot;; it should be tagged=
 &quot;uz&quot;. (The tag &quot;uz-Zxxx&quot; can also be used where conten=
t is not written: Zxxx =3D &quot;Code for unwritten documents&quot;.)<br>
<br>
</div>
The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that, starting a=
t &quot;Some of the languages in the registry are labeled &quot;macrolangua=
ges&quot; by ISO 639-3&quot;.<br>
<br>
I've looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone has conc=
rete suggestions for additions or changed text, they should present them.<b=
r>
<br>
Mark<br>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561554BEA74NAEXMSGC116re_--

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Mon May  5 09:38:38 2008
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	before submitting draft-4645bis-05
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Stephane wrote:

> May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at
> least on the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They
> probably have it somewhere.

I am sure this would be interesting but the thing is RFC 4646 is not just
used on the web. The last time I looked the TEI were using it and I think
quite a lot of archiving systems will be using it.

Best regards

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]
> Sent: 05 May 2008 16:26
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: 'John Cowan'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Knowing about the use of language tags (Was:
> Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
>
> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:43:25PM +0100,  Debbie Garside
> <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote  a message of 56 lines which said:
>
> > I am hearing this exact same thing today with regard to FX!
>  My point
> > is, we cannot possibly be expected to know whether subtags
> have been
> > used or not used
>
> May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at
> least on the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They
> probably have it somewhere.
>
> X % of HTML pages have a lang or xml:lang attribute X % of
> the tags have only one subtag, the language X % of the tags
> are well-formed X % of the tags are valid Complete list of
> language subtags seen in the wild etc...
>
>
>
>




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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:54:36 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> There are intelligent points of view on both sides about extlang. We had =
a long
> and exhaustive debate about it some time ago,--long before you raised thi=
s at
> the last minute--and were finally able to reach a rough consensus.

As you know, I participated in those debates, and I don't think we reached =
consensus so much as one "side" caved.

> I suggest that you review the many, many archived mails about it.
Many of which were probably sent by myself :)

> I don't think anyone really wants to go through that again. Your recent m=
ails
> don't really add any new information on the topic,

I think there is new information.  Since we have confusion about the recomm=
endations about zh vs cmn, I think its worth considering if extlang would h=
elp resolve the confusion with synonyms.  I realize that everyone (includin=
g myself) would like to just be done with this, however I'm still concerned=
 about the aliasing issue.

For example, if I see "zh" and "cmn", I have no way of telling that they're=
 related without looking at the registry, which basically means a hard-code=
d table.  If "zh" is preferred", then I may want to move from "zh" to "cmn"=
 or whatever.  If I'm using the cmn =3D=3D zh fallback approach, then I nee=
d to know the correlation.

Now what happens when I get a "new" tag that I didn't see in the registry? =
 How do I know if it belongs to a macrolanguage?  I can't do this at runtim=
e because I can't guarantee internet, ie: registry access, so suddenly I ma=
y doubt each tag that I don't recognize.  Is my unknown tag a Chinese varia=
nt?  I don't see 7300 entries in the registry, so presumably it'll be updat=
ed with some of the newly available languages available in Ethnologue.  Doe=
s this require that users of some small language wait for the registry to g=
et updated before they may tag their data?

As Mark notes, many (if not most) macrolanguages aren't appropriate for fal=
lback, so really I have to use the registry to find the correlation, unless=
 someone knowing that the correlation was interesting was able to tag the d=
ata directly using extlang.

Live.com might be able to hit the registry for new info whenever it wants (=
hopefully they're always connected :)), but I have to support Windows in co=
ntrolled environments where configuration issues, however minor, are very s=
trictly regulated.  That includes secure DoD installations that may have to=
 handle emerging markets and minority languages.

I have to also support mobile devices that may not have connectivity, self-=
serve kiosks, and other unconnected scenarios.  So in effect at least for s=
ome scenarios I have to build in a hard-coded list of possible fallbacks fo=
r whatever fallbacks are necessary.  Updating that list from the registry t=
o learn about reletively minor changes for extlang fallback can very costly=
 for some products and can cause an delay if an update has to be prepared..

I will, of course, implement whatever is agreed upon in windows, but I real=
ly need good guidance about things like whether or not zh and cmn are going=
 to be an alias, and I really don't want to have an effectively hard-coded =
list in windows.  I'd rather have the data in the tag and good rules/sugges=
tions derived from RFC4647bis.

The question I really need answered is "In the current draft, is cmn an ali=
as for zh?"  So far I haven't seen any discussion that changes my current i=
nterpretation of "yes".  In which case I have to question the value of "cmn=
".  Yet I know some people are going to argue that cmn is distinct from zh,=
 so therefore we need cmn.  Yet the strong recommendation of using "zh" ins=
tead of "cmn", leads me back to the thought that perhaps "zh-cmn" would be =
a more appropriate recommendation since it recognizes both the distinct asp=
ects of cmn and the legacy macrolanguage behavior of zh.

- Shawn


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1">
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</head>
<body ocsi=3D"x">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">&gt; </font>There are int=
elligent points of view on both sides about extlang. We had a long
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt; </font>and exhaustive =
debate about it some time ago,--long before you raised this at</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt;</font>&nbsp;the last m=
inute--and were finally able to reach a rough consensus.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">As you know, I participated=
&nbsp;in those&nbsp;debates, and I don't think we reached consensus so much=
 as one&nbsp;&quot;side&quot; caved.</font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt; I suggest that you rev=
iew the many, many archived mails about it.<br>
</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"><font face=3D"times new rom=
an">Many of which were probably sent by myself :)</font></div>
</font>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt; </font>I don't think a=
nyone really wants to go through that again. Your recent mails
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">&gt; </font>don't really ad=
d any new information on the topic,
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">I think there is new inform=
ation.&nbsp; Since we have confusion about the recommendations about zh vs =
cmn, I think its worth considering if extlang would help resolve the confus=
ion with synonyms.&nbsp;&nbsp;I realize that everyone
 (including myself) would like to just be done with this, however I'm still=
 concerned about the aliasing issue.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">For example, if I see &quot=
;zh&quot; and &quot;cmn&quot;, I have no way of telling that they're relate=
d without looking at the registry, which basically means a hard-coded table=
.&nbsp; If &quot;zh&quot; is preferred&quot;, then I may want to move from =
&quot;zh&quot;
 to &quot;cmn&quot; or whatever.&nbsp; If I'm using the cmn =3D=3D zh fallb=
ack approach, then I need to know the correlation.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">Now what happens when I get=
 a &quot;new&quot; tag that I didn't see in the registry?&nbsp; How do I kn=
ow if it belongs to a macrolanguage?&nbsp; I can't do this at runtime becau=
se I can't guarantee internet, ie: registry access, so suddenly
 I may doubt&nbsp;each tag that I don't recognize.&nbsp; Is my unknown tag =
a Chinese variant?&nbsp; I don't see 7300 entries in the registry, so presu=
mably it'll be updated with some of the newly available languages available=
 in Ethnologue.&nbsp; Does this require that users of
 some small language wait for the registry to get updated before they may t=
ag their data?</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">As Mark notes, many (if not=
 most) macrolanguages&nbsp;aren't appropriate for fallback, so really I hav=
e to use the registry to find the correlation, unless someone knowing that =
the correlation was interesting was able
 to tag the data directly using extlang.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">Live.com&nbsp;might be able=
 to&nbsp;hit the registry for new info whenever it wants (hopefully they're=
 always connected :)), but I have to support Windows in controlled environm=
ents where configuration issues, however minor,
 are very&nbsp;strictly regulated.&nbsp; That includes secure DoD installat=
ions that may have to handle emerging markets&nbsp;and minority languages.<=
/font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">I have to also support mobi=
le devices that may not have connectivity, self-serve kiosks, and other unc=
onnected scenarios.&nbsp; So in effect at least for some scenarios&nbsp;I h=
ave to build in a hard-coded list of possible
 fallbacks for whatever fallbacks are necessary.&nbsp; Updating that list f=
rom the registry to learn about reletively minor changes for extlang fallba=
ck&nbsp;can very costly for some products and can cause an delay if an upda=
te has to be prepared..</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font><font face=3D"times =
new roman"></font><font face=3D"times new roman">I will, of course, impleme=
nt whatever is agreed upon in windows, but I really need good guidance abou=
t things like whether or not zh and cmn
 are going to be an alias, and I really don't want to have an effectively h=
ard-coded list in windows.&nbsp; I'd rather have the data in the tag and go=
od rules/suggestions derived from RFC4647bis.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">The question I really need =
answered is &quot;In the current draft, is cmn an alias for zh?&quot;&nbsp;
</font><font face=3D"times new roman">So far I haven't seen any discussion =
that changes my current interpretation of &quot;yes&quot;.&nbsp; In which c=
ase I have to question the value of &quot;cmn&quot;.&nbsp; Yet I know some =
people are going to argue that cmn is distinct from zh, so therefore
 we need cmn.&nbsp; Yet the strong recommendation of using &quot;zh&quot; i=
nstead of &quot;cmn&quot;, leads me back to the thought that perhaps &quot;=
zh-cmn&quot; would be a more appropriate recommendation since it recognizes=
 both the distinct aspects of cmn and the legacy macrolanguage behavior
 of zh.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">- Shawn</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
</body>
</html>

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On 5/4/2008 1:59 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 01:29:06PM -0700,
>  Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote 
>  a message of 185 lines which said:
>
>   
>> Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values. 
>>     
>
> My main problem with language negotiation in HTTP, and the reason why
> I did not configure my browser to list my favorite language (french)
> first, is that HTTP make no distinction between original and
> translated texts. If I say to the HTTP server "I prefer french, then
> english", I get, most of the time, poorly translated and/or
> out-of-date pages in french. (Just compare
> http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/ and http://www.microsoft.com/fr/fr/.)
>
> What I really would like to express is "I prefer original text in
> french or english, then translated text in one of these two
> languages." But that's work for RFC 4646 ter :-)
>   
I have precisely the same problem! You express it very clearly.

A./
>
>
>   

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On 5/5/2008 7:39 AM, Frank Ellermann wrote:
> Asmus Freytag wrote:
>
>   
>>> What I really would like to express is "I prefer original text
>>> in french or english, then translated text in one of these two
>>> languages." But that's work for RFC 4646 ter :-)
>>>       
>    
>   
>> I have precisely the same problem! You express it very clearly.
>>     
>
> +1  It infuriates me when xyzzy.com asks me if I want to go to
> xyzzy.de, or worse just redirects to xyzzy.de, when I prefer
> xyzzy.com for some reason of my own.  But that is unrelated to
> language tags, it is some "Geo IP" stuff, unfortunately often
> "working as designed" (from their POV).
>
>   
We don't think that the issue as originally described is unrelated to 
language negotiation at all.

Language negotiation, as implemented seems to make the implicit 
assumption that where users provide more than one language, the second 
(and following) are to be treated as fallback, so *any* page in the 
first language, is preferable to the user, whether its a complete 
translation or just a partial service intended for those monolingual in 
the those languages.

What you are describing is the further assumption by some sites, that if 
your first choice of language matches some of their subsidiaries, that 
you would rather work in that 'locale'. Treating the language preference 
as what you call 'geo ip' appears to be a clear misuse of the language 
negotiation feature, whereas the other issue is one of a shortcut in 
implementation of a scheme, which, if correctly implemented and adopted 
(including the lack of assigning q values to the contents) might 
actually have led to the correct results.

But +1 to being infuriated about that misuse as well ;-)
A./
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Knowing about the use of language tags (Was: Questions
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On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 05:36:06PM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote 
 a message of 46 lines which said:

> I am sure this would be interesting but the thing is RFC 4646 is not
> just used on the web.

I hope so, otherwise most of the work done here would be wasted,
giving the current state of language tagging on the public Web :-(

> The last time I looked the TEI were using it and I think quite a lot
> of archiving systems will be using it.

Yes, but the public Web is searchable and is already crawled by
powerful robots so we have the possibility of gathering data.

If you know other places where language tagging is used, statistics
are welcome.
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 13:20:57 -0700
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> 1.  Preferred-Value of mismatched type
>
> Section 3.1.6, "Preferred-Value Field" says this:
>
> "Suppose that a variant subtag 'dialect' represents a language not yet
> available in any part of ISO 639.  The later addition of a
> corresponding
> language code in ISO 639 SHOULD result in the addition of a
> Preferred-Value for 'dialect'."
>
> We've never allowed a variant subtag to have a Preferred-Value that is
> a
> language subtag.  In fact, Section 3.1.2 forbids this:  "For fields of
> type 'script', 'region', and 'variant', 'Preferred-Value'
> contains the subtag of the same 'Type' that is preferred for forming
> the
> language tag."  I understand the problem this passage is trying to
> solve, but unfortunately the solution is not syntactically legal and we
> need to think this through a bit more.

You're right. This should read:

<t>Suppose that a registered language subtag 'dialect' represents a language not
yet available in any part of ISO 639. The later addition of a corresponding language
code in ISO 639 SHOULD result in the addition of a Preferred-Value for
'dialect'.</t>

For the variant case, we can't use Preferred-Value (by rule), but we can use Deprecated with a comment to indicate the new value.

The only solution to this would be to convert Preferred-Value from subtags to extended language ranges. This would require a change in the form of a number of P-V fields, not to mention having an impact on some implementations.

>
> 2.  Chained Preferred-Values
>
> Section 4.4, "Canonicalization of Language Tags" says this:
>
> "Subtags of type 'Region' that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the
> IANA registry (see Section 3.1) MUST be replaced with their mapped
> value.  Note: In rare cases, the mapped value will also have a
> Preferred-Value."
>
> Section 3.1.6 starts out merely recommending (not mandating) that
> Preferred-Values be updated to remove chains such as i-hak ->
> zh-hakka -> hak:  "The field MAY be added, changed, or removed..."
> However, the wording becomes more forceful later in the section:

That's not actually "more forceful". The ability to mutate or remove the field is one thing. The direction to specifically mutate it in certain cases is a separate issue.

> "Suppose that subtag 'XX' has a Preferred-Value of 'YY'.  If 'YY' later
> changes to have a Preferred-Value of 'ZZ', then the Preferred-Value for
> 'XX' MUST also change to be 'ZZ'."  Since all of the existing chains
> are
> being removed in 4645bis, we need to decide whether future removal of
> chains is going to be mandatory or optional; the current wording leaves
> it up in the air.
>

The real problem is the "note" in the first bit you quoted, allowing for chaining of P-V values. I can't think of any instances in which it makes sense to preserve a chain once we've decided to remove all chains. Thus, I've removed the "In rare cases..." note.

Addison


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Those changes look good to me.

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

> > 1.  Preferred-Value of mismatched type
> >
> > Section 3.1.6, "Preferred-Value Field" says this:
> >
> > "Suppose that a variant subtag 'dialect' represents a language not yet
> > available in any part of ISO 639.  The later addition of a
> > corresponding
> > language code in ISO 639 SHOULD result in the addition of a
> > Preferred-Value for 'dialect'."
> >
> > We've never allowed a variant subtag to have a Preferred-Value that is
> > a
> > language subtag.  In fact, Section 3.1.2 forbids this:  "For fields of
> > type 'script', 'region', and 'variant', 'Preferred-Value'
> > contains the subtag of the same 'Type' that is preferred for forming
> > the
> > language tag."  I understand the problem this passage is trying to
> > solve, but unfortunately the solution is not syntactically legal and we
> > need to think this through a bit more.
>
> You're right. This should read:
>
> <t>Suppose that a registered language subtag 'dialect' represents a
> language not
> yet available in any part of ISO 639. The later addition of a
> corresponding language
> code in ISO 639 SHOULD result in the addition of a Preferred-Value for
> 'dialect'.</t>
>
> For the variant case, we can't use Preferred-Value (by rule), but we can
> use Deprecated with a comment to indicate the new value.
>
> The only solution to this would be to convert Preferred-Value from subtags
> to extended language ranges. This would require a change in the form of a
> number of P-V fields, not to mention having an impact on some
> implementations.
>
> >
> > 2.  Chained Preferred-Values
> >
> > Section 4.4, "Canonicalization of Language Tags" says this:
> >
> > "Subtags of type 'Region' that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the
> > IANA registry (see Section 3.1) MUST be replaced with their mapped
> > value.  Note: In rare cases, the mapped value will also have a
> > Preferred-Value."
> >
> > Section 3.1.6 starts out merely recommending (not mandating) that
> > Preferred-Values be updated to remove chains such as i-hak ->
> > zh-hakka -> hak:  "The field MAY be added, changed, or removed..."
> > However, the wording becomes more forceful later in the section:
>
> That's not actually "more forceful". The ability to mutate or remove the
> field is one thing. The direction to specifically mutate it in certain cases
> is a separate issue.
>
> > "Suppose that subtag 'XX' has a Preferred-Value of 'YY'.  If 'YY' later
> > changes to have a Preferred-Value of 'ZZ', then the Preferred-Value for
> > 'XX' MUST also change to be 'ZZ'."  Since all of the existing chains
> > are
> > being removed in 4645bis, we need to decide whether future removal of
> > chains is going to be mandatory or optional; the current wording leaves
> > it up in the air.
> >
>
> The real problem is the "note" in the first bit you quoted, allowing for
> chaining of P-V values. I can't think of any instances in which it makes
> sense to preserve a chain once we've decided to remove all chains. Thus,
> I've removed the "In rare cases..." note.
>
> Addison
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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Those changes look good to me.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; 1. &nbsp;Preferred-Value of mismatched type<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Section 3.1.6, &quot;Preferred-Value Field&quot; says this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;Suppose that a variant subtag &#39;dialect&#39; represents a language not yet<br>
&gt; available in any part of ISO 639. &nbsp;The later addition of a<br>
&gt; corresponding<br>
&gt; language code in ISO 639 SHOULD result in the addition of a<br>
&gt; Preferred-Value for &#39;dialect&#39;.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We&#39;ve never allowed a variant subtag to have a Preferred-Value that is<br>
&gt; a<br>
&gt; language subtag. &nbsp;In fact, Section 3.1.2 forbids this: &nbsp;&quot;For fields of<br>
&gt; type &#39;script&#39;, &#39;region&#39;, and &#39;variant&#39;, &#39;Preferred-Value&#39;<br>
&gt; contains the subtag of the same &#39;Type&#39; that is preferred for forming<br>
&gt; the<br>
&gt; language tag.&quot; &nbsp;I understand the problem this passage is trying to<br>
&gt; solve, but unfortunately the solution is not syntactically legal and we<br>
&gt; need to think this through a bit more.<br>
<br>
</div>You&#39;re right. This should read:<br>
<br>
&lt;t&gt;Suppose that a registered language subtag &#39;dialect&#39; represents a language not<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">yet available in any part of ISO 639. The later addition of a corresponding language<br>
code in ISO 639 SHOULD result in the addition of a Preferred-Value for<br>
</div>&#39;dialect&#39;.&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
For the variant case, we can&#39;t use Preferred-Value (by rule), but we can use Deprecated with a comment to indicate the new value.<br>
<br>
The only solution to this would be to convert Preferred-Value from subtags to extended language ranges. This would require a change in the form of a number of P-V fields, not to mention having an impact on some implementations.<br>

<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 2. &nbsp;Chained Preferred-Values<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Section 4.4, &quot;Canonicalization of Language Tags&quot; says this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;Subtags of type &#39;Region&#39; that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the<br>
&gt; IANA registry (see Section 3.1) MUST be replaced with their mapped<br>
&gt; value. &nbsp;Note: In rare cases, the mapped value will also have a<br>
&gt; Preferred-Value.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Section 3.1.6 starts out merely recommending (not mandating) that<br>
&gt; Preferred-Values be updated to remove chains such as i-hak -&gt;<br>
&gt; zh-hakka -&gt; hak: &nbsp;&quot;The field MAY be added, changed, or removed...&quot;<br>
&gt; However, the wording becomes more forceful later in the section:<br>
<br>
</div>That&#39;s not actually &quot;more forceful&quot;. The ability to mutate or remove the field is one thing. The direction to specifically mutate it in certain cases is a separate issue.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; &quot;Suppose that subtag &#39;XX&#39; has a Preferred-Value of &#39;YY&#39;. &nbsp;If &#39;YY&#39; later<br>
&gt; changes to have a Preferred-Value of &#39;ZZ&#39;, then the Preferred-Value for<br>
&gt; &#39;XX&#39; MUST also change to be &#39;ZZ&#39;.&quot; &nbsp;Since all of the existing chains<br>
&gt; are<br>
&gt; being removed in 4645bis, we need to decide whether future removal of<br>
&gt; chains is going to be mandatory or optional; the current wording leaves<br>
&gt; it up in the air.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>The real problem is the &quot;note&quot; in the first bit you quoted, allowing for chaining of P-V values. I can&#39;t think of any instances in which it makes sense to preserve a chain once we&#39;ve decided to remove all chains. Thus, I&#39;ve removed the &quot;In rare cases...&quot; note.<br>

<font color="#888888"><br>
Addison<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
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<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 13:27:49 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Concrete text fixes (Re: I'm really confused by chinese
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LGTM

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

>  Inserted with a few minor edits:
>
>
>
> <t>When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human
> speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is
> customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might
> use the tag "uz-Arab" (Uzbek, Arabic script), but the audio track for the
> same language would be tagged simply "uz". (The tag "uz-Zxxx" could also be
> used where content is not written, as the subtag 'Zxxx' represents the "Code
> for unwritten documents".)</t>
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Shawn Steele
> *Sent:* Monday, May 05, 2008 9:13 AM
> *To:* Mark Davis; LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Concrete text fixes (Re: I'm really confused by
> chinese in 3066bis)
>
>
>
> I agree that this resolves my confusion with this text, and that its best
> to use an example that doesn't have the macrolanguage issue.
>
>
>
> - Shawn
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark
> Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org]
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:55 AM
> *To:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* [Ltru] Concrete text fixes (Re: I'm really confused by chinese
> in 3066bis)
>
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html
>
> 1. In one of the fragments Shawn cites, we have:
>
> When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human
> speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is
> customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might
> use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional script), but the
> audio track for the same language would be tagged "zh-cmn".
>
>
> The point in this text is not about macrolanguages or grandfathered tags
> (it is in a section about the use of script subtags), so that just muddies
> the issue for readers.
>
> My suggested fix is:
>
> When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of human
> speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is
> customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might
> use the tag "uz-Arab" (Uzbek in Arabic script), but the audio track for the
> same language should not be tagged "uz-Arab"; it should be tagged "uz". (The
> tag "uz-Zxxx" can also be used where content is not written: Zxxx = "Code
> for unwritten documents".)
>
> The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that, starting
> at "Some of the languages in the registry are labeled "macrolanguages" by
> ISO 639-3".
>
> I've looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone has
> concrete suggestions for additions or changed text, they should present
> them.
>
> Mark
>



-- 
Mark

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LGTM<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">











<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Inserted with a few minor edits:</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&lt;t&gt;When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a
recording of human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the
language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a
movie might use the tag &quot;uz-Arab&quot; (Uzbek, Arabic script), but the
audio track for the same language would be tagged simply &quot;uz&quot;. (The
tag &quot;uz-Zxxx&quot; could also be used where content is not written, as the
subtag &#39;Zxxx&#39; represents the &quot;Code for unwritten documents&quot;.)&lt;/t&gt;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillips</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization Architect -- Lab126</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationalization is not a feature.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an architecture.</span></p>

</div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Shawn
Steele<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 05, 2008 9:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mark Davis; LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Concrete text fixes (Re: I&#39;m really confused by
chinese in 3066bis)</span></p>

</div>

</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">I agree that this resolves my confusion with this text, and that
its best to use an example that doesn&#39;t have the macrolanguage issue.</span></p>

</div>

<div>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

</div>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">-
Shawn</span></p>

</div>

<div>

<div style="text-align: center;" align="center">

<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">

</div>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Mark Davis [<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org" target="_blank">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ltru] Concrete text fixes (Re: I&#39;m really confused by chinese
in 3066bis)</span></p>

</div>

<div>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><a href="http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html" target="_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html</a><br>
<br>
1. In one of the fragments Shawn cites, we have:</p>

<div style="margin-left: 30pt;">

<p>When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording
of human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the language is
customarily written in several scripts. Thus the subtitles to a movie might use
the tag &quot;zh-cmn-Hant&quot; (Chinese, Mandarin, Traditional script), but
the audio track for the same language would be tagged &quot;zh-cmn&quot;. </p>

</div>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
The point in this text is not about macrolanguages or grandfathered tags (it is
in a section about the use of script subtags), so that just muddies the issue
for readers.<br>
<br>
My suggested fix is:</p>

<div style="margin-left: 30pt;">

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">When labeling content that is
unwritten (such as a recording of human speech), the script subtag should not
be used, even if the language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus
the subtitles to a movie might use the tag &quot;uz-Arab&quot; (Uzbek in Arabic
script), but the audio track for the same language should not be tagged
&quot;uz-Arab&quot;; it should be tagged &quot;uz&quot;. (The tag
&quot;uz-Zxxx&quot; can also be used where content is not written: Zxxx =
&quot;Code for unwritten documents&quot;.)</p>

</div>

<p>The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below
that, starting at &quot;Some of the languages in the registry are labeled
&quot;macrolanguages&quot; by ISO 639-3&quot;.<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone has concrete
suggestions for additions or changed text, they should present them.<br>
<br>
Mark</p>

</div>

</div></div></div>

</div>

</div>


</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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I have some of the figures you are looking for in a presentation on my
website (macchiato.com) under 'Unicode at Google'. Not completely what you
want, and slightly outdated, but it may help (I'll probably be updating it
for the September Unicode conference).


Debbie said later "...the thing is RFC 4646 is not just used on the web".
That is certainly true. It is used on the web,  in non-web-related
applications, and in internal systems.

[On the web side: As a simple example of usage, look at IE7 where you pick
your language; you'll find az, bs, sr, and uz all with script
qualifications. These feed into Accept-Language, which is a fundamental
protocol on the web. And we see also web pages tagged with RFC 4646. Now,
whether or not sites use that Accept-Language, or use it properly, is a
different question; a lot of these kinds of infrastructure updates take
time.]

Mark

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
wrote:

> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:43:25PM +0100,
>  Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote
>  a message of 56 lines which said:
>
> > I am hearing this exact same thing today with regard to FX!  My
> > point is, we cannot possibly be expected to know whether subtags
> > have been used or not used
>
> May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at least on
> the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They probably have it
> somewhere.
>
> X % of HTML pages have a lang or xml:lang attribute
> X % of the tags have only one subtag, the language
> X % of the tags are well-formed
> X % of the tags are valid
> Complete list of language subtags seen in the wild
> etc...
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I have some of the figures you are looking for in a presentation on my website (<a href="http://macchiato.com">macchiato.com</a>) under &#39;Unicode at Google&#39;. Not completely what you want, and slightly outdated, but it may help (I&#39;ll probably be updating it for the September Unicode conference).<br>
<br><br>Debbie said later &quot;...the thing is RFC 4646 is not just used on the web&quot;. That is certainly true. It is used on the web,&nbsp; in non-web-related applications, and in internal systems.<br><br>[On the web side: As a simple example of usage, look at IE7 where you pick your language; you&#39;ll find az, bs, sr, and uz all with script qualifications. These feed into Accept-Language, which is a fundamental protocol on the web. And we see also web pages tagged with RFC 4646. Now, whether or not sites use that Accept-Language, or use it properly, is a different question; a lot of these kinds of infrastructure updates take time.]<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer &lt;<a href="mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">bortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:43:25PM +0100,<br>
&nbsp;Debbie Garside &lt;<a href="mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk">debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote<br>
&nbsp;a message of 56 lines which said:<br>
<br>
&gt; I am hearing this exact same thing today with regard to FX! &nbsp;My<br>
&gt; point is, we cannot possibly be expected to know whether subtags<br>
&gt; have been used or not used<br>
<br>
May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at least on<br>
the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They probably have it<br>
somewhere.<br>
<br>
X % of HTML pages have a lang or xml:lang attribute<br>
X % of the tags have only one subtag, the language<br>
X % of the tags are well-formed<br>
X % of the tags are valid<br>
Complete list of language subtags seen in the wild<br>
etc...<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Ltru@ietf.org
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On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>  > There are intelligent points of view on both sides about extlang. We
> had a long
> > and exhaustive debate about it some time ago,--long before you raised
> this at
> > the last minute--and were finally able to reach a rough consensus.
>
> As you know, I participated in those debates, and I don't think we reached
> consensus so much as one "side" caved.
>

That's actually what rough consensus typically means, on controversial
issues. I understand the feeling; I've been on the caving side myself many a
time, but at some point...


> > I suggest that you review the many, many archived mails about it.
>  Many of which were probably sent by myself :)
>
> > I don't think anyone really wants to go through that again. Your recent
> mails
> > don't really add any new information on the topic,
>
> I think there is new information.  Since we have confusion about the
> recommendations about zh vs cmn, I think its worth considering if extlang
> would help resolve the confusion with synonyms.  I realize that everyone
> (including myself) would like to just be done with this, however I'm still
> concerned about the aliasing issue.
>

We did consider that. And we have had text in the draft for some time
describing the situation, and saying "...where the macrolanguage tag has
been historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD
be used in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless
it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from
that enclosed dominant language variety". We then list the handful of cases
that we think are the appropriate ones that we know of.

In another posting, ("Concrete text fixes") I said:

The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that, starting at
"Some of the languages in the registry are labeled "macrolanguages" by ISO
639-3".

I've looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone has
concrete suggestions for additions or changed text, they should present
them.

If you think that text isn't clear, then perhaps you can suggest some
concrete changes?


> For example, if I see "zh" and "cmn", I have no way of telling that
> they're related without looking at the registry, which basically means a
> hard-coded table.  If "zh" is preferred", then I may want to move from "zh"
> to "cmn" or whatever.  If I'm using the cmn == zh fallback approach, then I
> need to know the correlation.
>

You can't tell that from the registry either! Sometimes microlanguages are
related in such a way as to be a good fallback, but usually they are not.
The handful of actual cases where we think it might be a good idea are
listed in the text in that section, *not* in the registry.

(If we wanted to anything with Norwegian, it would be there that we would
add it.)


> Now what happens when I get a "new" tag that I didn't see in the
> registry?  How do I know if it belongs to a macrolanguage?  I can't do this
> at runtime because I can't guarantee internet, ie: registry access, so
> suddenly I may doubt each tag that I don't recognize.  Is my unknown tag a
> Chinese variant?  I don't see 7300 entries in the registry, so presumably
> it'll be updated with some of the newly available languages available in
> Ethnologue.  Does this require that users of some small language wait for
> the registry to get updated before they may tag their data?
>

> As Mark notes, many (if not most) macrolanguages aren't appropriate for
> fallback, so really I have to use the registry to find the correlation,
> unless someone knowing that the correlation was interesting was able to tag
> the data directly using extlang.
>

Knowing that X is a macro/micro language does not necessarily mean -- *and
usually doesn't mean* -- that you want to use it in fallbacks. If there is
no predominant form, then it's a crapshoot as to whether the
macro/microlanguage is a good fallback.

There is no special runtime information in the registry. When a new
macro/microlanguage shows up in the registry *and* you support the one of
the pair, then it may be useful to review whether or not you want to add a
fallback. Automatically updating fallbacks blindly according to the registry
macro/microlanguages is not a good idea. Nor is it complete, since it misses
tl/fil, ro/mo, and many others that are much higher frequency cases than
most of the macro/microlanguages.


>
> Live.com might be able to hit the registry for new info whenever it wants
> (hopefully they're always connected :)), but I have to support Windows in
> controlled environments where configuration issues, however minor, are
> very strictly regulated.  That includes secure DoD installations that may
> have to handle emerging markets and minority languages.
>

Right, and for exactly those reasons you don't want to willy-nilly take
what's in the registry. It sounds like what you want in the registry is:

Subtag: br
Good-Fallback: fr
Good-Fallback: xx

That is, a field that would give you the best fallbacks in order. That is
just not the same as

Subtag: yy
Macrolanguage: xx

Such a "Good-Fallback" field would be require some other changes in the
registry, since you want to apply it to not just subtags. So you'd need
something like the following for Tags that aren't in the registry.

Type: fallback-source
Tag: zh-TW
Good-Fallback: zh-Hant-TW

Type: fallback-source
Tag: zh-Hant
Good-Fallback: zh-TW

It would be possible to discuss such additional structure for a later
revision of BCP 47, but that is really out of scope for this last call. Note
that like Suppress-Script, there are a small number of really clear cases
that would be easy to add -- and a dauntingly large number of cases where we
just don't have good information.

( BTW, we have been collecting data with similar goals in CLDR. See
http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/supplemental/likelySubtags.xml
http://unicode.org/cldr/data/charts/supplemental/likely_subtags.html )


> I have to also support mobile devices that may not have connectivity,
> self-serve kiosks, and other unconnected scenarios.  So in effect at least
> for some scenarios I have to build in a hard-coded list of possible
> fallbacks for whatever fallbacks are necessary.
>


> Updating that list from the registry to learn about reletively minor
> changes for extlang fallback can very costly for some products and can cause
> an delay if an update has to be prepared..
>

Understood. For the handful of clear cases, we have a recommendation -- for
others we just don't have the data.


> I will, of course, implement whatever is agreed upon in windows, but I
> really need good guidance about things like whether or not zh and cmn are
> going to be an alias, and I really don't want to have an effectively
> hard-coded list in windows.  I'd rather have the data in the tag and good
> rules/suggestions derived from RFC4647bis.
>
> The question I really need answered is "In the current draft, is cmn an
> alias for zh?"  So far I haven't seen any discussion that changes my
> current interpretation of "yes".
>

Right, and that's what the draft says, and has said for some time.


> In which case I have to question the value of "cmn".
>

In an ideal world, cmn would have been introduced at the same time as zh,
which people would have used


> Yet I know some people are going to argue that cmn is distinct from zh, so
> therefore we need cmn. Yet the strong recommendation of using "zh" instead
> of "cmn", leads me back to the thought that perhaps "zh-cmn" would be a more
> appropriate recommendation since it recognizes both the distinct aspects of
> cmn and the legacy macrolanguage behavior of zh.
>

But it doesn't really help. Having zh-cmn instead of cmn means that simple
fallback messes up with regions and scripts, and is only beneficial in the
handful of special cases, not for all macro/microlanguage pairs. Anyway, the
whole extlang issue is complicated, with many pluses and minues, and I don't
want to rehash it here.

So my recommendation would be to simply handle the few special cases, and
then supply APIs and UIs that make it as easy as possible for users to
supply Language Priority Lists, since that is what really gives the user the
ability to say what he/she really wants.


>
> - Shawn
>
>



-- 
Mark

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<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Shawn Steele &lt;<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">





<div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">&gt; </font>There are intelligent points of view on both sides about extlang. We had a long
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">&gt; </font>and exhaustive debate about it some time ago,--long before you raised this at</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">&gt;</font>&nbsp;the last minute--and were finally able to reach a rough consensus.</div>
<div dir="ltr">&nbsp;</div>
</div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">As you know, I participated&nbsp;in those&nbsp;debates, and I don&#39;t think we reached consensus so much as one&nbsp;&quot;side&quot; caved.</font>&nbsp;</div></div></blockquote><div><br>That&#39;s actually what rough consensus typically means, on controversial issues. I understand the feeling; I&#39;ve been on the caving side myself many a time, but at some point...<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div dir="ltr"></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div dir="ltr">&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">&gt; I suggest that you review the many, many archived mails about it.<br>
</font></div>
</div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"><font face="times new roman">Many of which were probably sent by myself :)</font></font></div><div class="Ih2E3d">

<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">&gt; </font>I don&#39;t think anyone really wants to go through that again. Your recent mails
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">&gt; </font>don&#39;t really add any new information on the topic,
</div>
<div dir="ltr">&nbsp;</div>
</div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">I think there is new information.&nbsp; Since we have confusion about the recommendations about zh vs cmn, I think its worth considering if extlang would help resolve the confusion with synonyms.&nbsp;&nbsp;I realize that everyone
 (including myself) would like to just be done with this, however I&#39;m still concerned about the aliasing issue.</font></div></div></blockquote><br>We did consider that. And we have had text in the draft for some time describing the situation, and saying &quot;...where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to
denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place of
the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed dominant language variety&quot;. We then list the handful of cases that we think are the appropriate ones that we know of.<br>
<br>In another posting, (&quot;Concrete text fixes&quot;) I said:<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that,
starting at &quot;Some of the languages in the registry are labeled
&quot;macrolanguages&quot; by ISO 639-3&quot;.<br><br>I&#39;ve looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone has <span class="nfakPe">concrete</span> suggestions for additions or changed text, they should present them.<br>
</div><br>If you think that text isn&#39;t clear, then perhaps you can suggest some concrete changes?<br><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">For example, if I see &quot;zh&quot; and &quot;cmn&quot;, I have no way of telling that they&#39;re related without looking at the registry, which basically means a hard-coded table.&nbsp; If &quot;zh&quot; is preferred&quot;, then I may want to move from &quot;zh&quot;
 to &quot;cmn&quot; or whatever.&nbsp; If I&#39;m using the cmn == zh fallback approach, then I need to know the correlation.</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br>You can&#39;t tell that from the registry either! Sometimes microlanguages are related in such a way as to be a good fallback, but usually they are not. The handful of actual cases where we think it might be a good idea are listed in the text in that section, *not* in the registry.<br>
<br>(If we wanted to anything with Norwegian, it would be there that we would add it.)<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">Now what happens when I get a &quot;new&quot; tag that I didn&#39;t see in the registry?&nbsp; How do I know if it belongs to a macrolanguage?&nbsp; I can&#39;t do this at runtime because I can&#39;t guarantee internet, ie: registry access, so suddenly
 I may doubt&nbsp;each tag that I don&#39;t recognize.&nbsp; Is my unknown tag a Chinese variant?&nbsp; I don&#39;t see 7300 entries in the registry, so presumably it&#39;ll be updated with some of the newly available languages available in Ethnologue.&nbsp; Does this require that users of
 some small language wait for the registry to get updated before they may tag their data?</font></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">As Mark notes, many (if not most) macrolanguages&nbsp;aren&#39;t appropriate for fallback, so really I have to use the registry to find the correlation, unless someone knowing that the correlation was interesting was able
 to tag the data directly using extlang.</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Knowing that X is a macro/micro language does not necessarily mean -- <i>and
usually doesn&#39;t mean</i> -- that you want to use it in fallbacks. If there
is no predominant form, then it&#39;s a crapshoot as to whether the
macro/microlanguage is a good fallback.<br><br>There is no special runtime information in the registry. When a new macro/microlanguage shows up in the registry *and* you support the one of the pair, then it may be useful to review whether or not you want to add a fallback. Automatically updating fallbacks blindly according to the registry macro/microlanguages is not a good idea. Nor is it complete, since it misses tl/fil, ro/mo, and many others that are much higher frequency cases than most of the macro/microlanguages.<br>

&nbsp;</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">Live.com&nbsp;might be able to&nbsp;hit the registry for new info whenever it wants (hopefully they&#39;re always connected :)), but I have to support Windows in controlled environments where configuration issues, however minor,
 are very&nbsp;strictly regulated.&nbsp; That includes secure DoD installations that may have to handle emerging markets&nbsp;and minority languages.</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Right, and for exactly those reasons you don&#39;t want to willy-nilly take what&#39;s in the registry. It sounds like what you want in the registry is:<br>
<br>Subtag: br<br>Good-Fallback: fr<br>Good-Fallback: xx<br>
<br>That is, a field that would give you the best fallbacks in order. That is just not the same as <br><br>Subtag: yy<br>Macrolanguage: xx<br><br>Such a &quot;Good-Fallback&quot; field would be require some other changes in the registry, since you want to apply it to not just subtags. So you&#39;d need something like the following for Tags that aren&#39;t in the registry.<br>
<br>Type: fallback-source<br>Tag: zh-TW<br>Good-Fallback: zh-Hant-TW<br><br>Type: fallback-source<br>Tag: zh-Hant<br>Good-Fallback: zh-TW<br><br>It would be possible to discuss such additional structure for a later revision of BCP 47, but that is really out of scope for this last call. Note that like Suppress-Script, there are a small number of really clear cases that would be easy to add -- and a dauntingly large number of cases where we just don&#39;t have good information.<br>
<br>( BTW, we have been collecting data with similar goals in CLDR. See<br><a href="http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/supplemental/likelySubtags.xml">http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/supplemental/likelySubtags.xml</a><br>
<a href="http://unicode.org/cldr/data/charts/supplemental/likely_subtags.html">http://unicode.org/cldr/data/charts/supplemental/likely_subtags.html</a> )<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">I have to also support mobile devices that may not have connectivity, self-serve kiosks, and other unconnected scenarios.&nbsp; So in effect at least for some scenarios&nbsp;I have to build in a hard-coded list of possible
 fallbacks for whatever fallbacks are necessary. </font></div></div></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">Updating that list from the registry to learn about reletively minor changes for extlang fallback&nbsp;can very costly for some products and can cause an delay if an update has to be prepared..</font></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br>Understood. For the handful of clear cases, we have a recommendation -- for others we just don&#39;t have the data.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font><font face="times new roman"></font><font face="times new roman">I will, of course, implement whatever is agreed upon in windows, but I really need good guidance about things like whether or not zh and cmn
 are going to be an alias, and I really don&#39;t want to have an effectively hard-coded list in windows.&nbsp; I&#39;d rather have the data in the tag and good rules/suggestions derived from RFC4647bis.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">The question I really need answered is &quot;In the current draft, is cmn an alias for zh?&quot;&nbsp;
</font><font face="times new roman">So far I haven&#39;t seen any discussion that changes my current interpretation of &quot;yes&quot;.&nbsp; </font></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Right, and that&#39;s what the draft says, and has said for some time.<br>
&nbsp;<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">In which case I have to question the value of &quot;cmn&quot;. </font></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br>In an ideal world, cmn would have been introduced at the same time as zh, which people would have used <br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">Yet I know some people are going to argue that cmn is distinct from zh, so therefore
 we need cmn. Yet the strong recommendation of using &quot;zh&quot; instead of &quot;cmn&quot;, leads me back to the thought that perhaps &quot;zh-cmn&quot; would be a more appropriate recommendation since it recognizes both the distinct aspects of cmn and the legacy macrolanguage behavior
 of zh.</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br>But it doesn&#39;t really help. Having zh-cmn instead of cmn means that simple fallback messes up with regions and scripts, and is only beneficial in the handful of special cases, not for all macro/microlanguage pairs. Anyway, the whole extlang issue is complicated, with many pluses and minues, and I don&#39;t want to rehash it here.<br>
<br>So my recommendation would be to simply handle the few special cases, and then supply APIs and UIs that make it as easy as possible for users to supply Language Priority Lists, since that is what really gives the user the ability to say what he/she really wants.<br>
</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">- Shawn</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Subject: [Ltru] Fwd:  I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Addison,

I tried converting to plaintext. It does preface each of Shawn's
paragraphs with >, although not each line. Hope it helps.

Mark

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Date: Mon, May 5, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
Cc: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>




On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > There are intelligent points of view on both sides about extlang. We had a long
> > and exhaustive debate about it some time ago,--long before you raised this at
> > the last minute--and were finally able to reach a rough consensus.
>
> As you know, I participated in those debates, and I don't think we reached consensus so much as one "side" caved.

That's actually what rough consensus typically means, on controversial
issues. I understand the feeling; I've been on the caving side myself
many a time, but at some point...


>
>
>
>
>
> > I suggest that you review the many, many archived mails about it.
>
> Many of which were probably sent by myself :)
>
>
> > I don't think anyone really wants to go through that again. Your recent mails
> > don't really add any new information on the topic,
>
> I think there is new information.  Since we have confusion about the recommendations about zh vs cmn, I think its worth considering if extlang would help resolve the confusion with synonyms.  I realize that everyone (including myself) would like to just be done with this, however I'm still concerned about the aliasing issue.

We did consider that. And we have had text in the draft for some time
describing the situation, and saying "...where the macrolanguage tag
has been historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language,
it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed
language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the
macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed dominant language
variety". We then list the handful of cases that we think are the
appropriate ones that we know of.

In another posting, ("Concrete text fixes") I said:

The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that,
starting at "Some of the languages in the registry are labeled
"macrolanguages" by ISO 639-3".

I've looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone has
concrete suggestions for additions or changed text, they should
present them.

If you think that text isn't clear, then perhaps you can suggest some
concrete changes?



>
>
>
>
> For example, if I see "zh" and "cmn", I have no way of telling that they're related without looking at the registry, which basically means a hard-coded table.  If "zh" is preferred", then I may want to move from "zh" to "cmn" or whatever.  If I'm using the cmn == zh fallback approach, then I need to know the correlation.

You can't tell that from the registry either! Sometimes microlanguages
are related in such a way as to be a good fallback, but usually they
are not. The handful of actual cases where we think it might be a good
idea are listed in the text in that section, *not* in the registry.

(If we wanted to anything with Norwegian, it would be there that we
would add it.)


>
>
>
>
> Now what happens when I get a "new" tag that I didn't see in the registry?  How do I know if it belongs to a macrolanguage?  I can't do this at runtime because I can't guarantee internet, ie: registry access, so suddenly I may doubt each tag that I don't recognize.  Is my unknown tag a Chinese variant?  I don't see 7300 entries in the registry, so presumably it'll be updated with some of the newly available languages available in Ethnologue.  Does this require that users of some small language wait for the registry to get updated before they may tag their data?
>
>
>
>
> As Mark notes, many (if not most) macrolanguages aren't appropriate for fallback, so really I have to use the registry to find the correlation, unless someone knowing that the correlation was interesting was able to tag the data directly using extlang.

Knowing that X is a macro/micro language does not necessarily mean --
and usually doesn't mean -- that you want to use it in fallbacks. If
there is no predominant form, then it's a crapshoot as to whether the
macro/microlanguage is a good fallback.

There is no special runtime information in the registry. When a new
macro/microlanguage shows up in the registry *and* you support the one
of the pair, then it may be useful to review whether or not you want
to add a fallback. Automatically updating fallbacks blindly according
to the registry macro/microlanguages is not a good idea. Nor is it
complete, since it misses tl/fil, ro/mo, and many others that are much
higher frequency cases than most of the macro/microlanguages.

>
>
>
>
> Live.com might be able to hit the registry for new info whenever it wants (hopefully they're always connected :)), but I have to support Windows in controlled environments where configuration issues, however minor, are very strictly regulated.  That includes secure DoD installations that may have to handle emerging markets and minority languages.

Right, and for exactly those reasons you don't want to willy-nilly
take what's in the registry. It sounds like what you want in the
registry is:

Subtag: br
Good-Fallback: fr
Good-Fallback: xx

That is, a field that would give you the best fallbacks in order. That
is just not the same as

Subtag: yy
Macrolanguage: xx

Such a "Good-Fallback" field would be require some other changes in
the registry, since you want to apply it to not just subtags. So you'd
need something like the following for Tags that aren't in the
registry.

Type: fallback-source
Tag: zh-TW
Good-Fallback: zh-Hant-TW

Type: fallback-source
Tag: zh-Hant
Good-Fallback: zh-TW

It would be possible to discuss such additional structure for a later
revision of BCP 47, but that is really out of scope for this last
call. Note that like Suppress-Script, there are a small number of
really clear cases that would be easy to add -- and a dauntingly large
number of cases where we just don't have good information.

( BTW, we have been collecting data with similar goals in CLDR. See
http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/supplemental/likelySubtags.xml
 http://unicode.org/cldr/data/charts/supplemental/likely_subtags.html )


>
>
>
>
> I have to also support mobile devices that may not have connectivity, self-serve kiosks, and other unconnected scenarios.  So in effect at least for some scenarios I have to build in a hard-coded list of possible fallbacks for whatever fallbacks are necessary.

>
>
> Updating that list from the registry to learn about reletively minor changes for extlang fallback can very costly for some products and can cause an delay if an update has to be prepared..

Understood. For the handful of clear cases, we have a recommendation
-- for others we just don't have the data.


>
>
>
>
> I will, of course, implement whatever is agreed upon in windows, but I really need good guidance about things like whether or not zh and cmn are going to be an alias, and I really don't want to have an effectively hard-coded list in windows.  I'd rather have the data in the tag and good rules/suggestions derived from RFC4647bis.
>
> The question I really need answered is "In the current draft, is cmn an alias for zh?"  So far I haven't seen any discussion that changes my current interpretation of "yes".

Right, and that's what the draft says, and has said for some time.


>
>
> In which case I have to question the value of "cmn".

In an ideal world, cmn would have been introduced at the same time as
zh, which people would have used

>
>
> Yet I know some people are going to argue that cmn is distinct from zh, so therefore we need cmn. Yet the strong recommendation of using "zh" instead of "cmn", leads me back to the thought that perhaps "zh-cmn" would be a more appropriate recommendation since it recognizes both the distinct aspects of cmn and the legacy macrolanguage behavior of zh.

But it doesn't really help. Having zh-cmn instead of cmn means that
simple fallback messes up with regions and scripts, and is only
beneficial in the handful of special cases, not for all
macro/microlanguage pairs. Anyway, the whole extlang issue is
complicated, with many pluses and minues, and I don't want to rehash
it here.

So my recommendation would be to simply handle the few special cases,
and then supply APIs and UIs that make it as easy as possible for
users to supply Language Priority Lists, since that is what really
gives the user the ability to say what he/she really wants.


>
>
>
>
> - Shawn
>



-- 
Mark


-- 
Mark
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I at least mostly remembered what I wrote, so I followed it I think :)

> >  The question I really need answered is "In the current draft, is cmn an alias for zh?"  So far I haven't seen any discussion that changes my current interpretation of "yes".

> Right, and that's what the draft says, and has said for some time.

(until the correction is made it also refers to zh-cmn-Hant, which has been a poor example for an even longer time :)

So if cmn == zh, then I don't see any need for cmn, it just makes maintenance more difficult.  I would rather see a statement that Mandarin should use zh and then list cmn as grandfathered.

One additional concern.  You've noted that one cannot generally use macrolanguages since it is only potentially helpful in some cases, such as zh & yue.

2.1 says: ...Thus, a parser need not have a list of
   valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of some version of the IANA
   Language Subtag Registry) in order to perform common searching and
   matching operations.

The "choice" section also mentions that yue may want to fallback to zh.  When I've decided that my application is interested in these types of fallback, how do I know for which languages this fallback may be appropriate?  (Hardcoding a list is an OK answer if yue->zh is the only language or one of a few with this potential.)

So in summary, I have 3 questions/concerns that I'd like addressed in the draft:

1) If cmn == zh, why do we need cmn?
2) If cmn == zh (or if zh is the only choice) is the lack of an ability to distinguish between Mandarin and the Chinese macrolanguage going to cause difficulty for some applications?
3) How do I know that falling back from a specific language to a macrolanguage may be interesting?

- Shawn



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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:
> I at least mostly remembered what I wrote, so I followed it I think :)
>
>
> > >  The question I really need answered is "In the current draft, is cmn an alias for zh?"  So far I haven't seen any discussion that changes my current interpretation of "yes".
>
> > Right, and that's what the draft says, and has said for some time.
>
> (until the correction is made it also refers to zh-cmn-Hant, which has been a poor example for an even longer time :)
>
> So if cmn == zh, then I don't see any need for cmn, it just makes maintenance more difficult.  I would rather see a statement that Mandarin should use zh and then list cmn as grandfathered.

I'm not saying that cmn = zh, just that for compatibility, most
applications want to treat them as the same. I can understand why some
people would want cmn (although it makes our lives harder).

In an ideal world, cmn, yue, and so on would have been around years
ago, and even if there were a zh, it would be unused in practice, like
gem.

>
>
> One additional concern.  You've noted that one cannot generally use macrolanguages since it is only potentially helpful in some cases, such as zh & yue.
>
> 2.1 says: ...Thus, a parser need not have a list of
>   valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of some version of the IANA
>   Language Subtag Registry) in order to perform common searching and
>   matching operations.
>
> The "choice" section also mentions that yue may want to fallback to zh.  When I've decided that my application is interested in these types of fallback, how do I know for which languages this fallback may be appropriate?  (Hardcoding a list is an OK answer if yue->zh is the only language or one of a few with this potential.)

There isn't the data in the registry for that. As I said, one could
have data somewhere for "Good-Fallback", but we don't have it.

Now, in terms of Chinese, I would expect that for most companies for
any xx-CN where xx is a minority language of China, zh-CN would be a
good fallback, because that would be the most likely understood
language. And if xx is predominantly spoken only in China, then zh
would be a good fallback.

But that is orthogonal to whether or not xx has zh as a macrolanguage or not.

>
> So in summary, I have 3 questions/concerns that I'd like addressed in the draft:
>
> 1) If cmn == zh, why do we need cmn?
> 2) If cmn == zh (or if zh is the only choice) is the lack of an ability to distinguish between Mandarin and the Chinese macrolanguage going to cause difficulty for some applications?

see above

> 3) How do I know that falling back from a specific language to a macrolanguage may be interesting?

BCP 47 doesn't address the issue of best fallback from one language to
another, except in a handful of special cases.

>
> - Shawn
>
>
>
>



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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: "ltru@ietf.org" <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 17:58:03 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] text proposition for extlang filtering by rfc 4647
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Nicolas Krebs

> If BCP 47 do not trust ISO 639-3 to write aa-bbb with right
> macrolangage prefix, maybe BCP 47 could trust ISO 639-3 to fallback
> from bbb to macrolangage tag.

This doesn't make any sense to me. ISO 639-3 provides a code table of alpha-3 IDs, and a table of macro-language mappings. It does not specify any scheme for creating multi-part tags, or for doing fallback mapping.



Peter
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 18:03:13 -0700
Thread-Topic: Pinyin in language tags (Was: I'm really confused by chinese
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I recognize that there are alternate transliteration systems. That is precisely why I said *could* be used rather than *should* be used.


Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:37 PM
> To: Peter Constable
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Pinyin in language tags (Was: I'm really confused by chinese
> in 3066bis
>
> On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 09:31:03PM -0700,
>  Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote
>  a message of 2989 lines which said:
>
> > The tag "zh-Latn" would mean "Chinese written in Latin script", and
> > could be used for Chinese written in Pinyin.
>
> I'm not sure. There are other transliteration systems in Latin. Until
> very recently, chinese names in french books and newspapers were
> transcribed with another system.
>
> You can use Arabic as an example: there is no "pinyin", no standard
> transliteration so ar-Latn is not specific enough.

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+1

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Ira McDonald
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:57 PM
> To: Stephane Bortzmeyer; Ira McDonald
> Cc: ltru@ietf.org; www-international@w3.org
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language tag education and negotiation
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
> Actually, I think it's *not* work for RFC 4646 ter.
>
> The metadata for original versus translation doesn't belong in
> a language tag.  Continuing to add optional fields to language
> tags is just going to make like for more difficult for all of us.
>
> Cheers,
> - Ira
>
>
> --
> Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
> Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
> Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
> email: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
> winter:
>  579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176
>  734-944-0094
> summer:
>  PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
>  906-494-2434
>
> On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
> wrote:
> > On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 01:29:06PM -0700,
> >   Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote
> >
> >  a message of 185 lines which said:
> >
> >  > Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values.
> >
> >  My main problem with language negotiation in HTTP, and the reason
> why
> >  I did not configure my browser to list my favorite language (french)
> >  first, is that HTTP make no distinction between original and
> >  translated texts. If I say to the HTTP server "I prefer french, then
> >  english", I get, most of the time, poorly translated and/or
> >  out-of-date pages in french. (Just compare
> >  http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/ and http://www.microsoft.com/fr/fr/.)
> >
> >  What I really would like to express is "I prefer original text in
> >  french or english, then translated text in one of these two
> >  languages." But that's work for RFC 4646 ter :-)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >  Ltru mailing list
> >  Ltru@ietf.org
> >  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> _______________________________________________
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Knowing about the use of language tags (Was: Questions
	before submitting draft-4645bis-05
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Sorry, I don't think it would be a good idea to say on the basis of Google or Yahoo (or MSN) statistics whether we think FX (or whatever) has or hasn't been used.

(Note: the JAC decision regarding [kha] and [lyg] was not analogous: there were particular sociolinguistic reasons that contributed to assuming that [kha] has not been used for Lyngngam.)


Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Stephane Bortzmeyer
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:26 AM
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: [Ltru] Knowing about the use of language tags (Was: Questions
> before submitting draft-4645bis-05
>
> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:43:25PM +0100,
>  Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote
>  a message of 56 lines which said:
>
> > I am hearing this exact same thing today with regard to FX!  My
> > point is, we cannot possibly be expected to know whether subtags
> > have been used or not used
>
> May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at least on
> the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They probably have it
> somewhere.
>
> X % of HTML pages have a lang or xml:lang attribute
> X % of the tags have only one subtag, the language
> X % of the tags are well-formed
> X % of the tags are valid
> Complete list of language subtags seen in the wild
> etc...
> _______________________________________________
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+1

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Debbie Garside
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:36 AM
> To: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer'
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Knowing about the use of language tags (Was:
> Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
>
> Stephane wrote:
>
> > May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at
> > least on the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They
> > probably have it somewhere.
>
> I am sure this would be interesting but the thing is RFC 4646 is not
> just
> used on the web. The last time I looked the TEI were using it and I
> think
> quite a lot of archiving systems will be using it.
>
> Best regards
>
> Debbie
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]
> > Sent: 05 May 2008 16:26
> > To: Debbie Garside
> > Cc: 'John Cowan'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> > Subject: Knowing about the use of language tags (Was:
> > Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
> >
> > On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:43:25PM +0100,  Debbie Garside
> > <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote  a message of 56 lines which said:
> >
> > > I am hearing this exact same thing today with regard to FX!
> >  My point
> > > is, we cannot possibly be expected to know whether subtags
> > have been
> > > used or not used
> >
> > May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at
> > least on the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They
> > probably have it somewhere.
> >
> > X % of HTML pages have a lang or xml:lang attribute X % of
> > the tags have only one subtag, the language X % of the tags
> > are well-formed X % of the tags are valid Complete list of
> > language subtags seen in the wild etc...
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Knowing about the use of language tags (Was: Questions
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I agree. I think we should just add it.

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I don't think it would be a good idea to say on the basis of Google or Yahoo (or MSN) statistics whether we think FX (or whatever) has or hasn't been used.
>
>  (Note: the JAC decision regarding [kha] and [lyg] was not analogous: there were particular sociolinguistic reasons that contributed to assuming that [kha] has not been used for Lyngngam.)
>
>
>  Peter
>
>
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>  > Stephane Bortzmeyer
>  > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:26 AM
>  > To: Debbie Garside
>  > Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
>  > Subject: [Ltru] Knowing about the use of language tags (Was: Questions
>  > before submitting draft-4645bis-05
>  >
>
>
> > On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:43:25PM +0100,
>  >  Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote
>  >  a message of 56 lines which said:
>  >
>  > > I am hearing this exact same thing today with regard to FX!  My
>  > > point is, we cannot possibly be expected to know whether subtags
>  > > have been used or not used
>  >
>  > May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at least on
>  > the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They probably have it
>  > somewhere.
>  >
>  > X % of HTML pages have a lang or xml:lang attribute
>  > X % of the tags have only one subtag, the language
>  > X % of the tags are well-formed
>  > X % of the tags are valid
>  > Complete list of language subtags seen in the wild
>  > etc...
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Ltru mailing list
>  > Ltru@ietf.org
>  > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ltru mailing list
>  Ltru@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark
_______________________________________________
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> I agree. I think we should just add [FX].

It was at one time an assigned ISO 3166 code and was downgraded to
exceptionally reserved before Date A.  That's evidence that the MA didn't
think assigning it was a good idea.  Why should we overrule that?

-- 
John Cowan        http://www.ccil.org/~cowan          cowan@ccil.org
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   at the front desk.                      check your assumptions at the door.
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Sorry, misspoke. It is in and deprecated; it's fine like that.

http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry

%%
Type: region
Subtag: FX
Description: Metropolitan France
Added: 2005-10-16
Preferred-Value: FR
Deprecated: 1997-07-14

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 6:57 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
>  > I agree. I think we should just add [FX].
>
>  It was at one time an assigned ISO 3166 code and was downgraded to
>  exceptionally reserved before Date A.  That's evidence that the MA didn't
>  think assigning it was a good idea.  Why should we overrule that?
>
>  --
>  John Cowan        http://www.ccil.org/~cowan          cowan@ccil.org
>  Please leave your values                Check your assumptions.  In fact,
>    at the front desk.                      check your assumptions at the door.
>      --sign in Paris hotel                   --Cordelia Vorkosigan
>



-- 
Mark
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> In an ideal world, cmn, yue, and so on would have been around years
> ago, and even if there were a zh, it would be unused in practice, like
> gem.

I get that part :)

> I'm not saying that cmn = zh, just that for compatibility, most
> applications want to treat them as the same. I can understand why some
> people would want cmn (although it makes our lives harder).

In that case I think that the draft should be very clear when "zh" is expected to be used and when "cmn" is expected to be used.  I'm thoroughly confused by this:

"In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed dominant language variety."

This sounds to me like "use zh instead of cmn because that's what was used historically."... unless its necessary to clearly distguish the macrolanguage from the dominant language variety.  If normally one tags the dominant language as the macrolanguage, how is it going to be possible to distinguish the macrolanguage from it?  Presumably cmn would clearly distinguish Mandarin, however zh can't be used to specify the Chinese macrolanguage because it is also used to mean Mandarin, in fact that's clearly the preferred meaning.

So if I want to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage, how do I clearly tag it?

- Shawn
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>, Ira McDonald
	<blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 20:33:23 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Language tag education and negotiation
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I agree as well, but I'm curious where this distinction might be made?  (should it be part of HTTP?)

Personally I'm in the other group, marginal English might be better for me than German, which would do in a pinch.

- Shawn

________________________________________
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Constable [petercon@microsoft.com]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 6:05 PM
To: Ira McDonald; Stephane Bortzmeyer
Cc: www-international@w3.org; ltru@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language tag education and negotiation

+1

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Ira McDonald
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:57 PM
> To: Stephane Bortzmeyer; Ira McDonald
> Cc: ltru@ietf.org; www-international@w3.org
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language tag education and negotiation
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
> Actually, I think it's *not* work for RFC 4646 ter.
>
> The metadata for original versus translation doesn't belong in
> a language tag.  Continuing to add optional fields to language
> tags is just going to make like for more difficult for all of us.
>
> Cheers,
> - Ira
>
>
> --
> Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
> Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
> Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
> email: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
> winter:
>  579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176
>  734-944-0094
> summer:
>  PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
>  906-494-2434
>
> On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
> wrote:
> > On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 01:29:06PM -0700,
> >   Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote
> >
> >  a message of 185 lines which said:
> >
> >  > Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values.
> >
> >  My main problem with language negotiation in HTTP, and the reason
> why
> >  I did not configure my browser to list my favorite language (french)
> >  first, is that HTTP make no distinction between original and
> >  translated texts. If I say to the HTTP server "I prefer french, then
> >  english", I get, most of the time, poorly translated and/or
> >  out-of-date pages in french. (Just compare
> >  http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/ and http://www.microsoft.com/fr/fr/.)
> >
> >  What I really would like to express is "I prefer original text in
> >  french or english, then translated text in one of these two
> >  languages." But that's work for RFC 4646 ter :-)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >  Ltru mailing list
> >  Ltru@ietf.org
> >  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Shawn Steele scripsit:

> So if I want to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage, how do I clearly tag it?

You can't.  But a macrolanguage is a group of languages that are treated as one for certain purposes.
Actual, individual documents have to be in a specific language.

-- 
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So zh == Mandarin (its not a macrolanguage because docs have to be specific), and cmn == Mandarin...  So I can't clearly distinguish them because they're both the same thing.  So these sound like a mere alias to me.

I'm not trying to be unnecessarily dense, but I still haven't heard any reason for cmn to be permitted at all if we say Mandarin SHOULD be tagged as zh.  The only reason that seems plausible is that cmn has a certain aesthetic symmetry; since yue is permitted then cmn should be allowed.

I would prefer that cmn be disallowed if a clear case cannot be found that makes it useful.  Otherwise we all just say "zh == cmn" in our code and then if a distinction is found it'll be too late.  If we just use "zh" for now, then if a need is discovered we can update a later RFC to allow that case and we won't contradict the bunch of code we're about to write.

- Shawn

________________________________________
From: John Cowan [cowan@ccil.org]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:37 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: Mark Davis; LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

Shawn Steele scripsit:

> So if I want to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage, how do I clearly tag it?

You can't.  But a macrolanguage is a group of languages that are treated as one for certain purposes.
Actual, individual documents have to be in a specific language.

--
LEAR: Dost thou call me fool, boy?      John Cowan
FOOL: All thy other titles              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
             thou hast given away:      cowan@ccil.org
      That thou wast born with.
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Shawn Steele scripsit:

> I'm not trying to be unnecessarily dense, but I still haven't heard
> any reason for cmn to be permitted at all if we say Mandarin SHOULD be
> tagged as zh.  The only reason that seems plausible is that cmn has
> a certain aesthetic symmetry; since yue is permitted then cmn should
> be allowed.
> 
> I would prefer that cmn be disallowed if a clear case cannot be found
> that makes it useful.  Otherwise we all just say "zh == cmn" in our code
> and then if a distinction is found it'll be too late.  

Code isn't everything (indeed, it's fairly easily changed) and the
Goohoosoft (TM) viewpoint isn't the only one.  That is, not everything
is about user locales, Web pages, and search engines, which have to deal
with languages rather crudely and in huge bulk, and for the most part
limit languages to textual objects.

In particular, in Karen Broome's movie database, cmn and yue are totally
different things, and there is no reason for her to blur the distinction
at all by employing zh in the "language of film" field (as opposed to
the "language of subtitles" field).  To be sure, she has to use zh-cmn
and zh-yue at present, because we are still sitting on 4646bis waiting
for the cows to come home, but when we finally get off the pot (to mix
a metaphor) she'll be able to use simply cmn.

-- 
What asininity could I have uttered     John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
that they applaud me thus?              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
        --Phocion, Greek orator
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 22:14:43 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> In particular, in Karen Broome's movie database, cmn and yue are totally
> different things, and there is no reason for her to blur the distinction
> at all by employing zh in the "language of film" field (as opposed to
> the "language of subtitles" field).

I don't see where the draft says "zh SHOULD be used instead of cmn ... except for movies".  On the contrary, it seems to state that zh always means Mandarin.

If by "historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language" means only "in text", then it should say "in text".  If "unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish" means "spoken or on film", then it should say so.

I don't want to speak for Karen, but I doubt she wants most Mandarin to be tagged zh, but then use cmn for her own needs.  If she wanted her own private use of language tags I doubt she would've been so vocal on the list :)

So I don't "get it".  The draft says one SHOULD use zh for Mandarin, but when pressed you say cmn and yue are totally different things.  Yet the draft hasn't been able to clarify that zh is different than cmn for her.

You also imply that Goohoosoft (TM) doesn't collide with Karen's space, however it may be that users want to download movies on demand in a language they can understand, in which case the machine must be able to communicate with the movie catalogue.

FYI: My interaction with tags isn't limited to the "Goohoosoft" viewpoint.  I understand that Karen's needs may be different than resource lookup.  I have to support DVD playback devices, subtitled video and other content labeling.  I realize that librarians may have different concerns.  My company does do many different things with language tags, and most of those "what do I do now?" questions end up going to Peter or myself.

The main point I'm trying to make is that the draft is fairly vague on when an exception to the "SHOULD" is permitted.  That allows implementors or taggers or whomever to make different decisions.  That could be a good thing, but I think it'll mean that most users will end up saying "cmn" == "zh" or risk missing scenarios.  Then others like Karen won't be able to make the distinction if she wants to.

At this point I don't care what the solution is, so long as it isn't ambiguous.

- Shawn
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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John Cowan 2008-05-06 05.37:
> Shawn Steele scripsit:
>
> > So if I want to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage, how do I clearly tag it?
>
> You can't.  But a macrolanguage is a group of languages that are treated as one for certain purposes.
> Actual, individual documents have to be in a specific language.
>   

<philosophy>
Macrolanguages can be compared with font-families.

In CSS we  speak about font-family.  But you can't select a font-family 
- you can only select a concrete font/typeface.

Thus, when you only say "Times New Roman" then you often really mean 
"Times New Roman **Regular**" - and that is also how HTML/CSS interprets 
it. However, that does not mean that "Times New Roman" is (only) 
synonymous to "Times New Roman Regular", as it also covers the Bold 
variant and the Italic and Bold Italic and perhaps others.  But even if 
you by default mean *Regular*", still, if you are in a run of Bold text, 
and say that you want to switch to "Times New Roman", then it means 
"Times New Roman **Bold**".

The same way the meaning of the name of the macrolanguage changes, by 
context. And sometimes it really refers to all at once.

If I can make another comparision: If you can't get the Italic variant 
of Times, then you must often look outside the font-family to find a 
replacement font. Because the font style is actually often more 
important than the font-family. In the same way, if a user can't get a 
certain microlangauge, then he might prefer to jump to another 
(macro)language, rather than picking another microlanguage under the 
same macrolanguage.

For Norwegian, I would turn what you said on its head: Norwegian is one 
language, which is treated as two languages, for certain purposes.  The 
Norwegian case is ultimately about a fight for and a right to the name 
"Norwegian". It is both a linguistic fight, and a name fight.

As for "Chinese", that is also about the right to be called "Chinese", 
you could say.

And I think it would illogical to give special treatment to 'zh' 
compared with other macrolangauge codes. That is, it would be illogical 
to say that zh == cmn. You can't say that it means only 'Mandarin', 
because you can't really remove the difference between "Mandarin" and 
"Chinese" without removing something even from the meaning of "Mandarin".
</philosophy>
-- 
leif halvard silli

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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2008/5/6 Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>:
> So zh == Mandarin (its not a macrolanguage because docs have to be specific), and cmn == Mandarin...  So I can't clearly distinguish them because they're both the same thing.  So these sound like a mere alias to me.
>

this would mean that all relevant locale data should be changed, the
way applications operate should be changed

or does it mean that BCP 47 will not be suitable for defining locales?

so does ISO-639-3 which identifies "zh" as a macrolanguage have to be
changed? or will BCP 47 and ISO-639-3 diverge?



Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
lang.support@gmail.com
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Shawn Steele 2008-05-06 05.32:
> > I'm not saying that cmn =3D zh, just that for compatibility, most
> > applications want to treat them as the same. I can understand why some
> > people would want cmn (although it makes our lives harder).
>
> In that case I think that the draft should be very clear when "zh" is exp=
ected to be used and when "cmn" is expected to be used.  I'm thoroughly con=
fused by this:
>
> "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag. Howev=
er, where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a domi=
nant encompassed language, it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag specifi=
c to that encompassed language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguis=
h the macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed dominant language variety=
."
>   =


How about this change:

    "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag.
    However, where the macrolanguage tag has historically been used as
    if it was a microlanguage tag for one particular microlanguage, the
    macrolanguage tag MAY continue to be used this way, as long as the
    correct microlanguage tag =96 or another microlanguage tag from the
    same macrolanguage =96 is not introduced to the same context. The
    macrolanguage tag MUST NOT be used as tag for one particular
    microlanguage if another microlanguage tag from the same
    macrolangauge occurs in the same context."

The above

   1. more clearly covers the possibility that also another
      microlanguage than the dominant one may have been referred to via
      the macrolanguage tag.
   2. speaks clearly against e.g. using "no" and "nn" in the same context.
   3. is more clear about which exception that is hereby permitted: what
      is permitted is to *continue to use* the macrolanguage tag in a
      *narrow* meaning, if - indeed - it has had that narrow meaning in
      a particular context. (For example, that 'zh' always and
      everywhere has meant 'mandarin' just because the text was in
      Mandarin, is, as we know, debated. This must be judged per context.)
   4. gives rules for when to stop using the macrolanguag tag as
      reference to one particular microlanguage.


> This sounds to me like "use zh instead of cmn because that's what was use=
d historically."... unless its necessary to clearly distguish the macrolang=
uage from the dominant language variety.  If normally one tags the dominant=
 language as the macrolanguage, how is it going to be possible to distingui=
sh the macrolanguage from it?  Presumably cmn would clearly distinguish Man=
darin, however zh can't be used to specify the Chinese macrolanguage becaus=
e it is also used to mean Mandarin, in fact that's clearly the preferred me=
aning.
>
> So if I want to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage, how do I clearly t=
ag it?
>   =


Then, obviously, you must be consequent about using 'cmn' for Mandarin =

so that you can use 'zh' for the macrolanguage. I don't know if the =

draft is clear enought about the need for spesificly tagging things as =

macrolangauge?

(In Mac OS X, Bokm=E5l and Nynorsk is used too much. For instance we have =

a Norwegian list and sorting format, but Mac OS X currently erroneously =

refers to it as "Bokm=E5l sorting" and "Nynorsk sorting". So, there are =

clearly a neeed for the macrolanguage tag to for instance tag things =

that are the same in the entire macrolanguage.)
-- =

leif halvard silli

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Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>, 'Doug Ewell' <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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I have to say I don't like the way we are contemplating dealing with
Macrolanguages.  Just to outline my perception of the current situation:

A macrolanguage has been designated within ISO 639-3 where there is a one to
many relationship between a subtag from another ISO 639 standard and more
than one subtag within ISO 639-3.  If we look at zh/zho as an example we can
see that this one to many macrolanguage/languages relationship encompasses
the following languages:

  cdo Min Dong Chinese
  cjy Jinyu Chinese
  cmn Mandarin Chinese
  cpx Pu-Xian Chinese
  czh Huizhou Chinese
  czo Min Zhong Chinese
  gan Gan Chinese
  hak Hakka Chinese
  hsn Xiang Chinese
  mnp Min Bei Chinese
  nan Min Nan Chinese
  wuu Wu Chinese
  yue Yue Chinese

In this situation, historically, the macrolanguage subtag has been used to
denote a dominant language in particular - cmn Mandarin Chinese.

However, whilst this is undoubtedly true, undoubtedly other languages within
the macrolanguage have also been encoded using the macrolanguage.

Where we seem to be getting into a bit of a pickle is with the suggestion
that zh should be used instead of cmn.  I think this would be a big mistake
and does not facilitate backward compatibility.

I propose that all future subtags for Mandarin Chinese should use cmn. I
would propose the following text to deal with this (this is a bit of a shot
in the dark to get out of this mess so feel free to shoot me down :-)):

---

Macrolanguages have been designated within ISO 639-3 where there is a one to
many relationship between a subtag from another ISO 639 standard and more
than one subtag within ISO 639-3.  In a number of cases the macrolanguage
has historically been used to denote one dominant language within the
designated macrolanguage.  In other cases the macrolanguage has been widely
used to denote more than one language within a macrolanguage.  In order to
facilitate backward compatibility and legacy systems, for macrolanguages
where this situation occurs, a comment has been inserted within Comment
Field 1 for the dominant related language(s) thus: Macrolanguage =
[macrolanguageSubtag].

Example 1: the dominant language for the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' is 'cmn'
(Mandarin Chinese), therefore Comment Field 1 would read: Macrolanguage = zh
Example 2: there is no particular dominant language within the macrolanguage
'no' which encompasses 'nn' and 'nb' therefore  Comment Field 1 for both
subtags reads: Macrolanguage = no

There are [number] number of subtags within the LSR which incorporate this
facility.

In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag. However,
in cases where a macrolanguage has been widely used to denote a dominant
language within the macrolanguage group, the registry includes the
macrolanguage within the first comment field within the registry to
facilitate fallback matching.  Where the macrolanguage tag has been
historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language, a duel language
tag MAY be used in addition to the subtag specific to that encompassed
language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as
a whole from that enclosed
dominant language variety in which case just the macrolangauge subtag can be
used.

Give examples:

---

There are not that many macrolanguages and I think we could do this - it
could also be updated at any time when further info becomes avaiable as to
macrolangauge usage.

Best regards

Debbie





> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli
> Sent: 06 May 2008 09:54
> To: Shawn Steele
> Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Shawn Steele 2008-05-06 05.32:
> > > I'm not saying that cmn = zh, just that for compatibility, most
> > > applications want to treat them as the same. I can understand why
> > > some people would want cmn (although it makes our lives harder).
> >
> > In that case I think that the draft should be very clear
> when "zh" is expected to be used and when "cmn" is expected
> to be used.  I'm thoroughly confused by this:
> >
> > "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the
> language tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been
> historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language,
> it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag specific to that
> encompassed language unless it is necessary to clearly
> distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed
> dominant language variety."
> >
>
> How about this change:
>
>     "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the
> language tag.
>     However, where the macrolanguage tag has historically been used as
>     if it was a microlanguage tag for one particular
> microlanguage, the
>     macrolanguage tag MAY continue to be used this way, as long as the
>     correct microlanguage tag – or another microlanguage tag from the
>     same macrolanguage – is not introduced to the same context. The
>     macrolanguage tag MUST NOT be used as tag for one particular
>     microlanguage if another microlanguage tag from the same
>     macrolangauge occurs in the same context."
>
> The above
>
>    1. more clearly covers the possibility that also another
>       microlanguage than the dominant one may have been
> referred to via
>       the macrolanguage tag.
>    2. speaks clearly against e.g. using "no" and "nn" in the
> same context.
>    3. is more clear about which exception that is hereby
> permitted: what
>       is permitted is to *continue to use* the macrolanguage tag in a
>       *narrow* meaning, if - indeed - it has had that narrow
> meaning in
>       a particular context. (For example, that 'zh' always and
>       everywhere has meant 'mandarin' just because the text was in
>       Mandarin, is, as we know, debated. This must be judged
> per context.)
>    4. gives rules for when to stop using the macrolanguag tag as
>       reference to one particular microlanguage.
>
>
> > This sounds to me like "use zh instead of cmn because
> that's what was used historically."... unless its necessary
> to clearly distguish the macrolanguage from the dominant
> language variety.  If normally one tags the dominant language
> as the macrolanguage, how is it going to be possible to
> distinguish the macrolanguage from it?  Presumably cmn would
> clearly distinguish Mandarin, however zh can't be used to
> specify the Chinese macrolanguage because it is also used to
> mean Mandarin, in fact that's clearly the preferred meaning.
> >
> > So if I want to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage, how
> do I clearly tag it?
> >
>
> Then, obviously, you must be consequent about using 'cmn' for
> Mandarin so that you can use 'zh' for the macrolanguage. I
> don't know if the draft is clear enought about the need for
> spesificly tagging things as macrolangauge?
>
> (In Mac OS X, Bokmål and Nynorsk is used too much. For
> instance we have a Norwegian list and sorting format, but Mac
> OS X currently erroneously refers to it as "Bokmål sorting"
> and "Nynorsk sorting". So, there are clearly a neeed for the
> macrolanguage tag to for instance tag things that are the
> same in the entire macrolanguage.)
> --
> leif halvard silli
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>





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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 10:54:16AM +0200,
 Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no> wrote 
 a message of 60 lines which said:

>     However, where the macrolanguage tag has historically been used
>     as if it was a microlanguage tag for one particular
>     microlanguage, the macrolanguage tag MAY continue to be used
>     this way, as long as the correct microlanguage tag ? or another
>     microlanguage tag from the same macrolanguage ? is not
>     introduced to the same context. The macrolanguage tag MUST NOT
>     be used as tag for one particular microlanguage if another
>     microlanguage tag from the same macrolangauge occurs in the same
>     context."

Why not, but remember that the politically correct word for
"microlanguage" is "encompassed language" for reasons already
discussed here.

[I add another reason: the character strings "microlanguage" and
"macrolanguage" are too similar and it is easy to mistake one for the
other.]
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> From: Shawn Steele
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:08 PM

> For Arabic I don't think the problem has nearly the same scale and I
> don't think content taggers or developers would have the same problem.

True... as long as there aren't specific varieties other than the standard variety that are important for tagging. If Karen comes along a few years from now saying, "We have movies dubbed into *Egyptian* spoken Arabic," we may have similar troubles with when to use "ar" versus "arb" for the standard variety.


Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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I have a nagging thought at the back of my mind while reading the
whole cmn == zh debate.

I can accept how zh_CN would mainly be Mandarin

I can accept that mostly zh-TW and zh-SG may be equated with Mandarin

But moving to other countries where the majority of Chinese are not
Mandarin speakers, equating "zh" with "cmn" seems to be much more
tenuous.

I'd be more inclined to say zh-CN == cmn, maybe zh-SG, zh-TW == cmn

but feel very uncomfortable asserting zh == cmn

-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Stephane Bortzmeyer 2008-05-06 14.47:
> On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 10:54:16AM +0200,
>
> Why not, but remember that the politically correct word for
> "microlanguage" is "encompassed language" for reasons already
> discussed here.
>
> [I add another reason: the character strings "microlanguage" and
> "macrolanguage" are too similar and it is easy to mistake one for the
> other.]
>   

New attemt:

    However, in a concretete context where a macrolanguage tag
    historically has been used to denote one, particular encompassed
    language, the macrolanguage tag MAY continue to be used in that
    meaning, provided that its spesific language subtag - or the
    spesific language subtag of another of the encompassed languges - is
    not introduced to the same context. A macrolanguage tag MUST NOT be
    used as tag for one particular encompassed language in a context
    where a another encompassed languages occurs."

-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 09:13:02 -0700
Thread-Topic: going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Subject: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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This is mostly thinking out loud: I don't arrive at a solution, but I evalu=
ate the problem in hope of understanding it better.

The source of ambiguity problems for zh/zho/chi lie in the origins of this =
category in ISO 639-1 and in the MARC Language Code List. (IANA registratio=
ns made in 1999 - zh-yue etc. - could also be cited, but they didn't add an=
y complication that MARC and 639-1 hadn't already brought to the table; the=
y only introduced the extlang construct.) In thinking about how to find a s=
olution to our "zh" problems, I thought I'd consider that in those original=
 contexts.

ISO 639-1 was created by terminologists. They may have had various applicat=
ions in mind, but it's reasonable to assume terminology applications are re=
presentative. For them, "zh" would have meant Mandarin: they didn't differe=
ntiate Mandarin from Cantonese or other languages, and just said "Chinese",=
 but in practice they were always dealing with Mandarin terms. Thus, when c=
reating terminologies for food commodities or aircraft components or whatev=
er, the "zh" term for 'sugar' (etc.) would be a Mandarin term.

The MARC Language Code List was the source for ISO 639-2, and was created b=
y librarians. They explicitly used the "Chinese" category ambiguously: that=
 is, they explicitly state that the ID for "Chinese" should be used for eit=
her Cantonese or Mandarin.

Bringing these two groups with their respective applications together resul=
ts in the same kinds of problem we are facing: the librarians give "zh" its=
 generic semantic, the terminologists give it the specific semantic, and al=
l are using the single category in spite of that difference.

I'll pause briefly here to consider how those original two groups relate to=
 our full range of application scenarios. Linguists, translation/localizati=
on and speech applications probably side with the terminology model in whic=
h the Mandarin/Cantonese distinction is really important. (E.g., localizati=
on of software resources is closely related to terminology, and "zh" would =
be specifically Mandarin; a speech synthesis app needs to differentiate Man=
darin from Cantonese, as does a lexicographer.) But general content authors=
 and publishers of first-language content probably side with the librarians=
 who just treat everything as "Chinese" -- most books, Web pages, etc. are =
tagged "zh" whether they are Mandarin, Cantonese, Min Nan, etc.

Now, suppose the terminologist decided one day that they needed terminologi=
es in both Mandarin and Cantonese: what would they do? Well, for them, "zh"=
 has always been used to mean Mandarin, so the most straight-forward soluti=
on would be to decide that "zh" has always meant specifically Mandarin, and=
 to add a new ID for Cantonese. But, since they've decided to use a single =
coding scheme together with the librarians, they'll check with them before =
implementing anything.

Now, for the librarian, "zh" has always had generic meaning. If the librari=
ans decide that they need to start differentiating Mandarin and Cantonese, =
the terminologists' solution doesn't work for them at all. Instead, what wo=
uld work for them is to create IDs for each distinct language, including Ma=
ndarin, and to start adding the additional IDs to their records. So, yester=
day record 18736942 was tagged as "zh", but tomorrow it will be tagged "zh,=
 cmn"; and a different record, 39028148 was tagged "zh", but going forward =
it will be tagged "zh, yue". Their query applications still allow users to =
search for "Chinese" records, matching on "zh", but users can start to sear=
ch for "Mandarin" (cmn) or "Cantonese" (yue) records as well. Of course, if=
 a user searches for "Cantonese" but a given record hasn't yet been updated=
, then that record can't be returned. The mitigation is that, when the user=
 decides to search for "Cantonese", they are given the suggestion that they=
 may also want to consider searching for "Chinese" records. And what if the=
y search for "Mandarin": should they just automatically get every "zh" reco=
rd? No! The same approach should be used: they should get every cmn record,=
 but given the suggestion to search for Chinese.

Coming back to the terminologists, does the librarians' solution work for t=
hem? Well, they could double-tag records going forward; an ambiguous "Chine=
se" category has never been useful for them, and still isn't, but they can =
always ignore that. But they have a deeper problem in that all their existi=
ng records are really Mandarin, yet are tagged with "zh" which they are bei=
ng asked to treat as ambiguous. They'd prefer to treat "zh" as synonymous w=
ith "cmn", and just use the former ("zh") alongside "yue" etc. Yet, that's =
a problem when it comes to interoperating with the librarians. They're face=
d with two options: either find a solution to this dual usage of "zh", or a=
bandon any hope of interoperation with the librarians.

Of course, that's the general problem we're facing: we must find a solution=
 to the dual usage or "zh" or abandon any possibility of allowing "zh" to h=
ave its generic meaning, yet existing usage seems to imply that the latter =
isn't an option, so a solution to the dual usage is essential - but we're a=
t a loss as to how to solve it.

I'll stop here. Maybe I'll come up with some bright idea for a way forward,=
 but maybe not.



Peter



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<p class=3DMsoNormal>This is mostly thinking out loud: I don&#8217;t arrive=
 at a
solution, but I evaluate the problem in hope of understanding it better.<o:=
p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>The source of ambiguity problems for zh/zho/chi lie in=
 the origins
of this category in ISO 639-1 and in the MARC Language Code List. (IANA
registrations made in 1999 &#8211; zh-yue etc. &#8211; could also be cited,=
 but
they didn&#8217;t add any complication that MARC and 639-1 hadn&#8217;t alr=
eady
brought to the table; they only introduced the extlang construct.) In think=
ing
about how to find a solution to our &#8220;zh&#8221; problems, I thought I&=
#8217;d
consider that in those original contexts.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>ISO 639-1 was created by terminologists. They may have=
 had
various applications in mind, but it&#8217;s reasonable to assume terminolo=
gy
applications are representative. For them, &#8220;zh&#8221; would have mean=
t
Mandarin: they didn&#8217;t differentiate Mandarin from Cantonese or other
languages, and just said &#8220;Chinese&#8221;, but in practice they were
always dealing with Mandarin terms. Thus, when creating terminologies for f=
ood
commodities or aircraft components or whatever, the &#8220;zh&#8221; term f=
or &#8216;sugar&#8217;
(etc.) would be a Mandarin term.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>The MARC Language Code List was the source for ISO 639=
-2,
and was created by librarians. They explicitly used the &#8220;Chinese&#822=
1;
category ambiguously: that is, they explicitly state that the ID for &#8220=
;Chinese&#8221;
should be used for either Cantonese or Mandarin. <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Bringing these two groups with their respective applic=
ations
together results in the same kinds of problem we are facing: the librarians=
 give
&#8220;zh&#8221; its generic semantic, the terminologists give it the speci=
fic
semantic, and all are using the single category in spite of that difference=
.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I&#8217;ll pause briefly here to consider how those or=
iginal
two groups relate to our full range of application scenarios. Linguists, tr=
anslation/localization
and speech applications probably side with the terminology model in which t=
he
Mandarin/Cantonese distinction is really important. (E.g., localization of =
software
resources is closely related to terminology, and &#8220;zh&#8221; would be
specifically Mandarin; a speech synthesis app needs to differentiate Mandar=
in
from Cantonese, as does a lexicographer.) But general content authors and
publishers of first-language content probably side with the librarians who =
just
treat everything as &#8220;Chinese&#8221; -- most books, Web pages, etc. ar=
e
tagged &#8220;zh&#8221; whether they are Mandarin, Cantonese, Min Nan, etc.=
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Now, suppose the terminologist decided one day that th=
ey
needed terminologies in both Mandarin and Cantonese: what would they do? We=
ll,
for them, &#8220;zh&#8221; has always been used to mean Mandarin, so the mo=
st
straight-forward solution would be to decide that &#8220;zh&#8221; has alwa=
ys
meant specifically Mandarin, and to add a new ID for Cantonese. But, since =
they&#8217;ve
decided to use a single coding scheme together with the librarians, they&#8=
217;ll
check with them before implementing anything.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Now, for the librarian, &#8220;zh&#8221; has always ha=
d
generic meaning. If the librarians decide that they need to start
differentiating Mandarin and Cantonese, the terminologists&#8217; solution
doesn&#8217;t work for them at all. Instead, what would work for them is to
create IDs for each distinct language, including Mandarin, and to start add=
ing
the additional IDs to their records. So, yesterday record 18736942 was tagg=
ed
as &#8220;zh&#8221;, but tomorrow it will be tagged &#8220;zh, cmn&#8221;; =
and
a different record, 39028148 was tagged &#8220;zh&#8221;, but going forward=
 it
will be tagged &#8220;zh, yue&#8221;. Their query applications still allow
users to search for &#8220;Chinese&#8221; records, matching on &#8220;zh&#8=
221;,
but users can start to search for &#8220;Mandarin&#8221; (cmn) or &#8220;Ca=
ntonese&#8221;
(yue) records as well. Of course, if a user searches for &#8220;Cantonese&#=
8221;
but a given record hasn&#8217;t yet been updated, then that record can&#821=
7;t
be returned. The mitigation is that, when the user decides to search for &#=
8220;Cantonese&#8221;,
they are given the suggestion that they may also want to consider searching=
 for
&#8220;Chinese&#8221; records. And what if they search for &#8220;Mandarin&=
#8221;:
should they just automatically get every &#8220;zh&#8221; record? No! The s=
ame
approach should be used: they should get every cmn record, but given the
suggestion to search for Chinese.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Coming back to the terminologists, does the librarians=
&#8217;
solution work for them? Well, they could double-tag records going forward; =
an
ambiguous &#8220;Chinese&#8221; category has never been useful for them, an=
d
still isn&#8217;t, but they can always ignore that. But they have a deeper
problem in that all their existing records are really Mandarin, yet are tag=
ged
with &#8220;zh&#8221; which they are being asked to treat as ambiguous. The=
y&#8217;d
prefer to treat &#8220;zh&#8221; as synonymous with &#8220;cmn&#8221;, and =
just
use the former (&#8220;zh&#8221;) alongside &#8220;yue&#8221; etc. Yet, tha=
t&#8217;s
a problem when it comes to interoperating with the librarians. They&#8217;r=
e faced
with two options: either find a solution to this dual usage of &#8220;zh&#8=
221;,
or abandon any hope of interoperation with the librarians.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Of course, that&#8217;s the general problem we&#8217;r=
e
facing: we must find a solution to the dual usage or &#8220;zh&#8221; or
abandon any possibility of allowing &#8220;zh&#8221; to have its generic
meaning, yet existing usage seems to imply that the latter isn&#8217;t an o=
ption,
so a solution to the dual usage is essential &#8211; but we&#8217;re at a l=
oss
as to how to solve it.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I&#8217;ll stop here. Maybe I&#8217;ll come up with so=
me
bright idea for a way forward, but maybe not.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Peter<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>, 'Leif Halvard
	Silli' <lhs@malform.no>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 09:15:12 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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I like Debbie's approach much better than Leif's.  Leif delegates my concer=
n to a "context", which I'm not sure makes things any clearer since applica=
tions sometimes use multiple "contexts".  Eg: if Karen's movie database is =
currently offline, then it may fit in a "context" that allows the cmn tag. =
 If the database then moves online (l ike to be sold on Amazon), then the c=
ontext may change to a way that specifies the zh tag.)

I get tripped up over the last sentence:  "Where the macrolanguage tag has =
been
historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language, a duel language
tag MAY be used in addition to the subtag specific to that encompassed
language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as
a whole from that enclosed dominant language variety in which case just the=
 macrolangauge subtag can be
used."

Which sounds to me like the opposite of her introduction.  It seems to me t=
hat there are 3 cases:

1) The case where macrolanguages were never used (eg: English).
2) The case where a macrolanguage was used primarily for a dominant languag=
e (eg: Mandarin)
3) The case where a non-dominant language has historically been tagged with=
 a macrolanguage because there wasn't another choice (eg: Cantonese).

I think that all three cases should be discoverable from the registry.  My =
very rough attempt at making this distinction in Debbie's last paragraph:

In general, the most specific subtag to form the language tag MUST be used.=
 However,
in cases where a macrolanguage has been widely used to denote a dominant
language within the macrolanguage group, the registry includes the
macrolanguage within the first comment field within the registry to
facilitate fallback matching.  Where the macrolanguage tag has been
historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language, that macrolang=
uage
tag SHOULD be used for matching in addition to the tag appropriate for the
specific encompassed language.  When the emcompassed language is not the
dominate language but historically only had the macrolanguage available for
tagging, then the macrolanguage MAY be used for matching in addition tot the
appropriate specific encompassed language.

I'm trying to distinguish between cmn in the first SHOULD case and yue in t=
he second MAY case.

Whatever happens I think examples would be a good idea.

zh -- Data historically tagged with the Chinese macrolanguage.  Presumed to=
 be predominantly Mandarin, but may include other specific languages such a=
s Cantonese.
cmn -- Data newly tagged as Mandarin.  When matching applications SHOULD ma=
tch zh with cmn so that the historical data is recognized.
yue -- Data newly tagged as Cantonese.  When matching applications MAY matc=
h zh if they feel that some Cantonese data in their context may have been t=
agged as Chinese.

- Shawn
________________________________________
From: Debbie Garside [debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 4:34 AM
To: 'Leif Halvard Silli'; Shawn Steele
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell'
Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

I have to say I don't like the way we are contemplating dealing with
Macrolanguages.  Just to outline my perception of the current situation:

A macrolanguage has been designated within ISO 639-3 where there is a one to
many relationship between a subtag from another ISO 639 standard and more
than one subtag within ISO 639-3.  If we look at zh/zho as an example we can
see that this one to many macrolanguage/languages relationship encompasses
the following languages:

  cdo Min Dong Chinese
  cjy Jinyu Chinese
  cmn Mandarin Chinese
  cpx Pu-Xian Chinese
  czh Huizhou Chinese
  czo Min Zhong Chinese
  gan Gan Chinese
  hak Hakka Chinese
  hsn Xiang Chinese
  mnp Min Bei Chinese
  nan Min Nan Chinese
  wuu Wu Chinese
  yue Yue Chinese

In this situation, historically, the macrolanguage subtag has been used to
denote a dominant language in particular - cmn Mandarin Chinese.

However, whilst this is undoubtedly true, undoubtedly other languages within
the macrolanguage have also been encoded using the macrolanguage.

Where we seem to be getting into a bit of a pickle is with the suggestion
that zh should be used instead of cmn.  I think this would be a big mistake
and does not facilitate backward compatibility.

I propose that all future subtags for Mandarin Chinese should use cmn. I
would propose the following text to deal with this (this is a bit of a shot
in the dark to get out of this mess so feel free to shoot me down :-)):

---

Macrolanguages have been designated within ISO 639-3 where there is a one to
many relationship between a subtag from another ISO 639 standard and more
than one subtag within ISO 639-3.  In a number of cases the macrolanguage
has historically been used to denote one dominant language within the
designated macrolanguage.  In other cases the macrolanguage has been widely
used to denote more than one language within a macrolanguage.  In order to
facilitate backward compatibility and legacy systems, for macrolanguages
where this situation occurs, a comment has been inserted within Comment
Field 1 for the dominant related language(s) thus: Macrolanguage =3D
[macrolanguageSubtag].

Example 1: the dominant language for the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' is 'cmn'
(Mandarin Chinese), therefore Comment Field 1 would read: Macrolanguage =3D=
 zh
Example 2: there is no particular dominant language within the macrolanguage
'no' which encompasses 'nn' and 'nb' therefore  Comment Field 1 for both
subtags reads: Macrolanguage =3D no

There are [number] number of subtags within the LSR which incorporate this
facility.

In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag. However,
in cases where a macrolanguage has been widely used to denote a dominant
language within the macrolanguage group, the registry includes the
macrolanguage within the first comment field within the registry to
facilitate fallback matching.  Where the macrolanguage tag has been
historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language, a duel language
tag MAY be used in addition to the subtag specific to that encompassed
language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as
a whole from that enclosed
dominant language variety in which case just the macrolangauge subtag can be
used.

Give examples:

---

There are not that many macrolanguages and I think we could do this - it
could also be updated at any time when further info becomes avaiable as to
macrolangauge usage.

Best regards

Debbie





> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli
> Sent: 06 May 2008 09:54
> To: Shawn Steele
> Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Shawn Steele 2008-05-06 05.32:
> > > I'm not saying that cmn =3D zh, just that for compatibility, most
> > > applications want to treat them as the same. I can understand why
> > > some people would want cmn (although it makes our lives harder).
> >
> > In that case I think that the draft should be very clear
> when "zh" is expected to be used and when "cmn" is expected
> to be used.  I'm thoroughly confused by this:
> >
> > "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the
> language tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been
> historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language,
> it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag specific to that
> encompassed language unless it is necessary to clearly
> distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed
> dominant language variety."
> >
>
> How about this change:
>
>     "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the
> language tag.
>     However, where the macrolanguage tag has historically been used as
>     if it was a microlanguage tag for one particular
> microlanguage, the
>     macrolanguage tag MAY continue to be used this way, as long as the
>     correct microlanguage tag =96 or another microlanguage tag from the
>     same macrolanguage =96 is not introduced to the same context. The
>     macrolanguage tag MUST NOT be used as tag for one particular
>     microlanguage if another microlanguage tag from the same
>     macrolangauge occurs in the same context."
>
> The above
>
>    1. more clearly covers the possibility that also another
>       microlanguage than the dominant one may have been
> referred to via
>       the macrolanguage tag.
>    2. speaks clearly against e.g. using "no" and "nn" in the
> same context.
>    3. is more clear about which exception that is hereby
> permitted: what
>       is permitted is to *continue to use* the macrolanguage tag in a
>       *narrow* meaning, if - indeed - it has had that narrow
> meaning in
>       a particular context. (For example, that 'zh' always and
>       everywhere has meant 'mandarin' just because the text was in
>       Mandarin, is, as we know, debated. This must be judged
> per context.)
>    4. gives rules for when to stop using the macrolanguag tag as
>       reference to one particular microlanguage.
>
>
> > This sounds to me like "use zh instead of cmn because
> that's what was used historically."... unless its necessary
> to clearly distguish the macrolanguage from the dominant
> language variety.  If normally one tags the dominant language
> as the macrolanguage, how is it going to be possible to
> distinguish the macrolanguage from it?  Presumably cmn would
> clearly distinguish Mandarin, however zh can't be used to
> specify the Chinese macrolanguage because it is also used to
> mean Mandarin, in fact that's clearly the preferred meaning.
> >
> > So if I want to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage, how
> do I clearly tag it?
> >
>
> Then, obviously, you must be consequent about using 'cmn' for
> Mandarin so that you can use 'zh' for the macrolanguage. I
> don't know if the draft is clear enought about the need for
> spesificly tagging things as macrolangauge?
>
> (In Mac OS X, Bokm=E5l and Nynorsk is used too much. For
> instance we have a Norwegian list and sorting format, but Mac
> OS X currently erroneously refers to it as "Bokm=E5l sorting"
> and "Nynorsk sorting". So, there are clearly a neeed for the
> macrolanguage tag to for instance tag things that are the
> same in the entire macrolanguage.)
> --
> leif halvard silli
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 09:32:56 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sha=
wn Steele
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:55 AM

>> There are intelligent points of view on both sides about extlang. We had=
 a long
>> and exhaustive debate about it some time ago,--long before you raised th=
is at
>>=A0the last minute--and were finally able to reach a rough consensus.
>=A0
> As you know, I participated in those debates...
> Since we have confusion about the recommendations about zh vs cmn, I thin=
k its
> worth considering if extlang would help resolve the confusion with synony=
ms...

I'm wondering if the more useful discussion (which IIRC hasn't happened at =
all) is how to create platforms that allow back-compat with all existing us=
age of "zh" while needing to also start supporting new application scenario=
s in which Cantonese needs to be distinguished from Mandarin. Allowing zh-c=
mn may deal with certain fallback or synonymy scenarios, but it doesn't tel=
l me how to create a platform (e.g. Win32, .Net, ICU) that supports Cantone=
se vs. Mandarin scenarios. Similarly, Mark's suggestion to treat "zh" and "=
cmn" "for most programs" also doesn't tell me how to do that.

So, I'm suggesting to separate these issues:

1. If I see "zh" and "cmn", do I need to refer to the registry to tell that=
 they're related (perhaps treated synonymously)?

2. In a platform that to date has only known "zh", how do I start to suppor=
t Mandarin vs. Cantonese scenarios while still maintaining back compat with=
 existing apps?



Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Debbie Garside 2008-05-06 13.34:
> In this situation, historically, the macrolanguage subtag has been used to
> denote a dominant language in particular - cmn Mandarin Chinese.
>
> However, whilst this is undoubtedly true, undoubtedly other languages within
> the macrolanguage have also been encoded using the macrolanguage.
>
> Where we seem to be getting into a bit of a pickle is with the suggestion
> that zh should be used instead of cmn.  I think this would be a big mistake
> and does not facilitate backward compatibility.
>   

So, it seems to me that you, in the above, say that the 'zh' must be 
kept "free" so that it - most typically - can stand for Mandaran 
Chinese, but also so that it - in other contexts - can stand for one of 
the other encompassed Chinese languages.

> I propose that all future subtags for Mandarin Chinese should use cmn. I
>   

I agree. In fact, I should perhaps have put more weight on that in the 
rewrite of the text that I made. For instance, new services which are 
not intented to use all encompassed languages, should prepare for the 
future inclusion of other of the encompassed langauges by using a 
spesific subtag.

But in what, future situation would it be advicable to actually use the 
macrolanguage tag, do you think? (Because, what you say could, in my 
mind, mean that 'zh' should almost go out (of future) use.)

Is the macrolanguage tag only a tag for backwards compatibility? Or has 
it any future role?

For instance, is there a difference - or likeness - between using the 
'mul' tag and a macrolanguage tag? Should 'zh' be used as *the* tag for 
resources with several chinese languages, or should 'mul' be used 
instead? Or perhaps a third option?

Currently the draft says about  'mul' that

    "It SHOULD NOT be used when a list of languages (such as
    Content-Language) or individual tags for each content element can be
    used instead."

Ought not the draft have an entry saying something about whether using 
the macrolanguage tag to cover all the encompassed languages is a good idea?

It seems to me that the same rules should count for macrolanguage tags 
as for mul, if or when they are used to play the same - though more 
spesific - role as 'mul'. I.e. if I as author/webserver want to catch 
all persons searching for 'chinese', then I should not simply rely on 
the old 'zh' tag, but should instead - when possible - list all the 
chinese languages. Likewise, for Norwegian, if the goal for me as 
author/server is to catch all Norwegian users to a single-language (one 
encompassing langauge) Norwegian web page, then I should not rely on 
'no', but instead, if possible, use both nn, nb and no. Sensible?

As I see it, a macrolanguage tag can be used on things which are 
"neutrally chinese" or "neutrally Norwegian".  "Neutral" should be 
understood either as field where there is of no interest or perhaps 
irrelevant to classify into encompassed languages. The macrolanguage tag 
might be used in context where there is no theoretical possibility that 
the same kind of resource, in the future, will be split into encompassed 
languages. (One cathegory where it will often be safe to use the 
macrolanguage tage is probably names of persons and juridic persons. 
Though for some public institutions may have spesific encompassing 
language names.)
> would propose the following text to deal with this (this is a bit of a shot
> in the dark to get out of this mess so feel free to shoot me down :-)):
>   

How about up? ;-)

> ---
>
> Macrolanguages have been designated within ISO 639-3 where there is a one to
> many relationship between a subtag from another ISO 639 standard and more
> than one subtag within ISO 639-3.  In a number of cases the macrolanguage
> has historically been used to denote one dominant language within the
> designated macrolanguage.  In other cases the macrolanguage has been widely
> used to denote more than one language within a macrolanguage.  In order to
> facilitate backward compatibility and legacy systems, for macrolanguages
> where this situation occurs,a comment has been inserted within Comment
> Field 1 for the dominant related language(s) thus: Macrolanguage =
> [macrolanguageSubtag].
>   

This sounds as a good idea.

> Example 1: the dominant language for the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' is 'cmn'
> (Mandarin Chinese), therefore Comment Field 1 would read: Macrolanguage = zh
> Example 2: there is no particular dominant language within the macrolanguage
> 'no' which encompasses 'nn' and 'nb' therefore  Comment Field 1 for both
> subtags reads: Macrolanguage = no
>   

The examples are not so clearly written, I feel. You meant that there 
should be a comment linking from the relevant encompassed language to 
the the macrolanguage tag. As I understand it, you by this comment want 
the list to inform abotu for which sublanguage tags the macrolanguage 
tag should be used as fallback. So, basically, you try to give info 
about which encompassed languages the macrolangauge tag is very direct 
fallback for. (And thus, thereby also inderectly noting for which 
languages it might not be a good fallback.)

I think this should be formulated without using the term "dominant" and 
other postulate like wordings that could lead to debate.

> There are [number] number of subtags within the LSR which incorporate this
> facility.
>   

There are 50 macrolanguage tags, if my RegEx served me well. And many 
more encompassed languages.

> In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag. However,
> in cases where a macrolanguage has been widely used to denote a dominant
> language within the macrolanguage group, the registry includes the
> macrolanguage within the first comment field within the registry to
> facilitate fallback matching.

So, if I got this right,  the point about the comment field is not to 
inform the reader that the macrolanguage tag could not be used for 
tagging, but simply to inform applications that they need to facilitate 
fallback matching.

>   Where the macrolanguage tag has been
> historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language, a duel language
> tag 

What does 'duel language tag' mean? Two language tags? Such as "cmn, zh" 
pr 'zh-cmn'?

> MAY be used in addition to the subtag specific to that encompassed
> language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as
> a whole from that enclosed
> dominant language variety in which case just the macrolangauge subtag can be
> used.
>
> Give examples:
>
> ---
>
> There are not that many macrolanguages and I think we could do this - it
> could also be updated at any time when further info becomes avaiable as to
> macrolangauge usage.
>   

Sounds like a good idea to give advice about all of them.
-- 
leif halvard silli


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Ok... now having read the draft in relation to Macrolanguages ... :-)
Ignore my previous message...  I will start again.

I am not in favour of using any macrolanguage subtag for what is
"considered" to be the dominant language as I feel there will be a body of
information tagged that will not be in the dominant language.  I also feel
that we should use the correct ISO 639-3 subtag or there will be a mish mash
of future tagging going on for these languages; with some "in the know"
tagging Mandarin Chinese as 'zh' and others as 'cmn'.  I do, however,
recognise that some applications necessarily need the information with
regard to "dominant" language and that there would appear to be sufficient
knowledge within this community for these languages to be called "dominant".

I would propose the following:

---

   In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag.
   Where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to
   denote a dominant encompassed language, it MAY NOT be used in place of
   the subtag specific to that encompassed language.

   To facilitate fallback matching for the dominant language within a
Macrolanguage the Macrolanguage field for the dominant language should
include, in addition to the Macrolanguage subtag, a rating of number 1
(one).

   For example the Macrolanguage field for Mandarin Chinese 'cmn' will read
as follows: zh;1

   The pairs of macro and encompassed languages affected by this issue
   when this document was published were:

        Arabic 'ar'                    Standard Arabic 'arb'
        Konkani (macrolanguage) 'kok'  Konkani (single language) 'knn'
        Malay (macrolanguage) 'ms'     Malay (single language) 'mly'
        Swahili (macrolanguage) 'sw'   Swahili (single language) 'swh'
        Uzbek 'uz'                     Northern Uzbek 'uzn'
        Chinese 'zh'                   Mandarin Chinese 'cmn'

Each of these cases will include the number 1 (one) within the macrolanguage
field.  This scheme can be further expanded to facilitate additional
fallback matching by adding ratings 2, 3, 4 etc. to other languages
encompassed within the Macrolanguage if deemed appropriate.

---

Accept or reject as you please.  Now I am going to go away and solve my own
problems and leave this to you. :-)

best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli
> Sent: 06 May 2008 15:51
> To: Stephane Bortzmeyer
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Stephane Bortzmeyer 2008-05-06 14.47:
> > On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 10:54:16AM +0200,
> >
> > Why not, but remember that the politically correct word for
> > "microlanguage" is "encompassed language" for reasons already
> > discussed here.
> >
> > [I add another reason: the character strings "microlanguage" and
> > "macrolanguage" are too similar and it is easy to mistake
> one for the
> > other.]
> >
>
> New attemt:
>
>     However, in a concretete context where a macrolanguage tag
>     historically has been used to denote one, particular encompassed
>     language, the macrolanguage tag MAY continue to be used in that
>     meaning, provided that its spesific language subtag - or the
>     spesific language subtag of another of the encompassed
> languges - is
>     not introduced to the same context. A macrolanguage tag
> MUST NOT be
>     used as tag for one particular encompassed language in a context
>     where a another encompassed languages occurs."
>
> --
> leif halvard silli
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>




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Debbie Garside 2008-05-06 18.56:
> I am not in favour of using any macrolanguage subtag for what is
> "considered" to be the dominant language as I feel there will be a body of
> information tagged that will not be in the dominant language.  I also feel
> that we should use the correct ISO 639-3 subtag or there will be a mish mash
> of future tagging going on for these languages; with some "in the know"
> tagging Mandarin Chinese as 'zh' and others as 'cmn'.  I do, however,
> recognise that some applications necessarily need the information with
> regard to "dominant" language and that there would appear to be sufficient
> knowledge within this community for these languages to be called "dominant".
>
> I would propose the following:
>
> ---
>
>    In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag.
>    Where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to
>    denote a dominant encompassed language, it MAY NOT be used in place of
>    the subtag specific to that encompassed language.
>   

Thinking about nn,nb,no I agree strongly. 'no' should not be used in 
place of the more spesific subtag.

>    To facilitate fallback matching for the dominant language within a
> Macrolanguage the Macrolanguage field for the dominant language should
> include, in addition to the Macrolanguage subtag, a rating of number 1
> (one).
>
>    For example the Macrolanguage field for Mandarin Chinese 'cmn' will read
> as follows: zh;1
>
>    The pairs of macro and encompassed languages affected by this issue
>    when this document was published were:
>
>         Arabic 'ar'                    Standard Arabic 'arb'
>         Konkani (macrolanguage) 'kok'  Konkani (single language) 'knn'
>         Malay (macrolanguage) 'ms'     Malay (single language) 'mly'
>         Swahili (macrolanguage) 'sw'   Swahili (single language) 'swh'
>         Uzbek 'uz'                     Northern Uzbek 'uzn'
>         Chinese 'zh'                   Mandarin Chinese 'cmn'
>   


Is this intended as the full list? I suppose not?

> Each of these cases will include the number 1 (one) within the macrolanguage
> field.  This scheme can be further expanded to facilitate additional
> fallback matching by adding ratings 2, 3, 4 etc. to other languages
> encompassed within the Macrolanguage if deemed appropriate.
>   

-- 
leif halvard silli
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 11:04:30 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 11:01:53 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 11:32:49 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Fwd:  I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Mark Davis
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 3:14 PM


> Right, and for exactly those reasons you don't want to willy-nilly
> take what's in the registry. It sounds like what you want in the
> registry is:
>
> Subtag: br
> Good-Fallback: fr
> Good-Fallback: xx
>
> That is, a field that would give you the best fallbacks in order. That
> is just not the same as
>
> Subtag: yy
> Macrolanguage: xx

Mark, you keep coming back to general fallback scenarios, and I think we've agreed that we don't want to register specific fallback chains. It seems to me that the only reason to jump from the specific problems of "zh" to a discussion of general fallback is that we don't want to consider the "zh" case as somehow special -- because that smacks of cherry picking. But it seems to me that's just trying to ignore the reality that "zh" *is* a special situation because of the dualism in its usage, and is not just one instance of the general fallback scenario.



Peter
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Andrew Cunningham


> so does ISO-639-3 which identifies "zh" as a macrolanguage have to be
> changed?

No matter how anybody here answers that one, I think it's safe to say it won't happen: ISO 639-3 treats the scope of zh[o] the way it does, as a macrolanguage, because that is an accurate reflection of pre-existing usage.




Peter
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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
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If you look at the context, I was just posing a hypothetical -- I'm not
saying that we should add support like that, just emphasizing that if you
were looking for "best fallback" in the registry, we don't support that, and
it is a mistake to assume that Macrolanguage: is equivalent to that.

Mark

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:32 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > Mark Davis
> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 3:14 PM
>
>
> > Right, and for exactly those reasons you don't want to willy-nilly
> > take what's in the registry. It sounds like what you want in the
> > registry is:
> >
> > Subtag: br
> > Good-Fallback: fr
> > Good-Fallback: xx
> >
> > That is, a field that would give you the best fallbacks in order. That
> > is just not the same as
> >
> > Subtag: yy
> > Macrolanguage: xx
>
> Mark, you keep coming back to general fallback scenarios, and I think
> we've agreed that we don't want to register specific fallback chains. It
> seems to me that the only reason to jump from the specific problems of "zh"
> to a discussion of general fallback is that we don't want to consider the
> "zh" case as somehow special -- because that smacks of cherry picking. But
> it seems to me that's just trying to ignore the reality that "zh" *is* a
> special situation because of the dualism in its usage, and is not just one
> instance of the general fallback scenario.
>
>
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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If you look at the context, I was just posing a hypothetical -- I&#39;m not saying that we should add support like that, just emphasizing that if you were looking for &quot;best fallback&quot; in the registry, we don&#39;t support that, and it is a mistake to assume that Macrolanguage: is equivalent to that.<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:32 AM, Peter Constable &lt;<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
</div>&gt; Mark Davis<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 3:14 PM<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
&gt; Right, and for exactly those reasons you don&#39;t want to willy-nilly<br>
&gt; take what&#39;s in the registry. It sounds like what you want in the<br>
&gt; registry is:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Subtag: br<br>
&gt; Good-Fallback: fr<br>
&gt; Good-Fallback: xx<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; That is, a field that would give you the best fallbacks in order. That<br>
&gt; is just not the same as<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Subtag: yy<br>
&gt; Macrolanguage: xx<br>
<br>
</div>Mark, you keep coming back to general fallback scenarios, and I think we&#39;ve agreed that we don&#39;t want to register specific fallback chains. It seems to me that the only reason to jump from the specific problems of &quot;zh&quot; to a discussion of general fallback is that we don&#39;t want to consider the &quot;zh&quot; case as somehow special -- because that smacks of cherry picking. But it seems to me that&#39;s just trying to ignore the reality that &quot;zh&quot; *is* a special situation because of the dualism in its usage, and is not just one instance of the general fallback scenario.<br>

<font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
Peter<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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_______________________________________________
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:54 AM


> How about this change:
>
>     "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag.
>     However, where the macrolanguage tag has historically been used as
>     if it was a microlanguage tag for one particular microlanguage, the
>     macrolanguage tag MAY continue to be used this way, as long as the
>     correct microlanguage tag - or another microlanguage tag from the
>     same macrolanguage - is not introduced to the same context. The
>     macrolanguage tag MUST NOT be used as tag for one particular
>     microlanguage if another microlanguage tag from the same
>     macrolangauge occurs in the same context."

Essentially that says don't use zh in any data category if there's a possibility that someday you may need to use yue (or nan, etc.) in that same data category. That entails, for instance, either that we can use xml:lang="zh" and must never use xml:lang="yue", or that we must henceforth stop ever using xml:lang="zh".

Seems to me that some might find that problematic.



Peter
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Debbie Garside

> In this situation, historically, the macrolanguage subtag has been used
> to denote a dominant language in particular - cmn Mandarin Chinese.
>
> However, whilst this is undoubtedly true, undoubtedly other languages
> within the macrolanguage have also been encoded using the macrolanguage.

Just in case anyone is unclear about this, not only is it *undoubtedly true* (which, in my dialect ironically suggests a small potential for doubt), it can be seen to be explicitly, demonstrably and incontrovertibly true either by looking at the IANA LSTR or by comparing the MARC Language Code List with its ISO counterpart, ISO 639-2.



Peter

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> Most systems and system locales will boot up in "Chinese".

Perhaps you've oversimplified the problem.  Our customers will want voice interaction to be in the spoken language, Chinese is no longer sufficient for the system.  Even on a web site, audio clips may be available so Chinese doesn't necessarily provide enough granularity.

- Shawn
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:13 AM
> Subject: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
...
> Of course, that's the general problem we're facing: we must find a solution
> to the dual usage or "zh" or abandon any possibility of allowing "zh" to have
> its generic meaning, yet existing usage seems to imply that the latter isn't
> an option, so a solution to the dual usage is essential - but we're at a loss
> as to how to solve it.
...

This points to the "soft underbelly" of "tag wisely" - the assumption that
the tagger can reasonably anticipate how the "consumers" of the tag
will want to use that information.

In retrospect, I think it would have been better to have taken the route of
   zh -> some kind of Chinese, likely (but not guaranteed) to be Mandarin
   zh-cmn -> Chinese, specifically Mandarin
   ar -> some kind of Arabic, likely (but not guaranteed) to be Standard Arabic
   ar-arb -> Arabic, specificall Standard Arabic
   de -> some kind of German, overwhelmingly likely (but not guaranteed) to be Hochdeutsch
   de-*hde -> German, specifically Hochdeutsch

Even recognizing that reasoning about "language X is some kind of Y" can be
horribly fuzzy, this would still be better aligned with a "principle of least
astonishment" for folks trying to understand the specification, trying to tag data,
or trying to formulate a query.  Yes, huge amounts of data might end up being tagged
less precisely than we might like, but at least they'd still be tagged accurately.

Randy

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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Randy Presuhn'" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>,
	"'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Randy wrote:

In retrospect, I think it would have been better to have taken the route of
   zh -> some kind of Chinese, likely (but not guaranteed) to be Mandarin
   zh-cmn -> Chinese, specifically Mandarin
   ar -> some kind of Arabic, likely (but not guaranteed) to be Standard
Arabic
   ar-arb -> Arabic, specificall Standard Arabic
   de -> some kind of German, overwhelmingly likely (but not guaranteed) to
be Hochdeutsch
   de-*hde -> German, specifically Hochdeutsch


I agree wholeheartedly!

Why can we not take this route.  It is far far better and less troublesome
as well as more in line with reality (IMHO)

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: 06 May 2008 19:31
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> Hi -
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
> > To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:13 AM
> > Subject: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
> ...
> > Of course, that's the general problem we're facing: we must find a
> > solution to the dual usage or "zh" or abandon any possibility of
> > allowing "zh" to have its generic meaning, yet existing
> usage seems to
> > imply that the latter isn't an option, so a solution to the
> dual usage
> > is essential - but we're at a loss as to how to solve it.
> ...
>
> This points to the "soft underbelly" of "tag wisely" - the
> assumption that the tagger can reasonably anticipate how the
> "consumers" of the tag will want to use that information.
>
> In retrospect, I think it would have been better to have
> taken the route of
>    zh -> some kind of Chinese, likely (but not guaranteed) to
> be Mandarin
>    zh-cmn -> Chinese, specifically Mandarin
>    ar -> some kind of Arabic, likely (but not guaranteed) to
> be Standard Arabic
>    ar-arb -> Arabic, specificall Standard Arabic
>    de -> some kind of German, overwhelmingly likely (but not
> guaranteed) to be Hochdeutsch
>    de-*hde -> German, specifically Hochdeutsch
>
> Even recognizing that reasoning about "language X is some
> kind of Y" can be horribly fuzzy, this would still be better
> aligned with a "principle of least astonishment" for folks
> trying to understand the specification, trying to tag data,
> or trying to formulate a query.  Yes, huge amounts of data
> might end up being tagged less precisely than we might like,
> but at least they'd still be tagged accurately.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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Debbie Garside 2008-05-06 21.44:
> Randy wrote:
>
> In retrospect, I think it would have been better to have taken the route of
>    zh -> some kind of Chinese, likely (but not guaranteed) to be Mandarin
>    zh-cmn -> Chinese, specifically Mandarin
>    ar -> some kind of Arabic, likely (but not guaranteed) to be Standard
> Arabic
>    ar-arb -> Arabic, specificall Standard Arabic
>    de -> some kind of German, overwhelmingly likely (but not guaranteed) to
> be Hochdeutsch
>    de-*hde -> German, specifically Hochdeutsch
>
>
> I agree wholeheartedly!
>
> Why can we not take this route.  It is far far better and less troublesome
> as well as more in line with reality (IMHO)
>
> > less precisely than we might like,
> > but at least they'd still be tagged accurately

Indeed.
-- 
leif halvard silli





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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Randy Presuhn


> In retrospect, I think it would have been better to have taken the
> route of
>    zh -> some kind of Chinese, likely (but not guaranteed) to be
> Mandarin
>    zh-cmn -> Chinese, specifically Mandarin
...

It's my impression that at least part of what kept us from going that route was

(a) the scenarios in which extlang-to-macrolanguage fallback didn't provide useful results,
(b) the scenarios in which extlang might hinder useful right-truncation fallback in existing implementations because region or script are more useful than extlang, and
(c) the assumption that, if we use extlang at all, then we must use it for all macrolanguages rather than being able to specify particular cases (no cherry picking).




Peter
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
...
> It's my impression that at least part of what kept us from going that route was
> 
> (a) the scenarios in which extlang-to-macrolanguage fallback didn't provide useful results,
> (b) the scenarios in which extlang might hinder useful right-truncation fallback
> in existing implementations because region or script are more useful than extlang, and

I see (a) and (b) as being practically the same argument, since they are
both focused on kinds of right-truncation fallback.  Any heuristic that returns
something other than what the user explicitly asked for deserves a "health
warning".  The question is whether we allow a heuristic with known limitations
to override all other concerns.

> (c) the assumption that, if we use extlang at all, then we must use it for all macrolanguages
> rather than being able to specify particular cases (no cherry picking).

I don't see this as an obstacle.

BTW, I'm *not* advocating a change to the current text, but I would
count myself in the camp of "not convinced that this is the right
direction."

==========================================

As co-chair:

I'm very concerned that this issue continues to come up.  That suggests
that either our rationale isn't clear enough in the i-d, or that we've got it
wrong.  It could be that this is just one of those situations where there is
no "right" answer, and we need to just pick one.

When Peter started this thread, he gave us a useful explanation of how
two differing points of view led to our current situation.  Perhaps it might
be useful to work through the pros and cons of the alternatives from
the perspectives of important user communities, both as producers and
as consumers of tagged data, new and legacy.

Randy

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To: "'Leif Halvard Silli'" <lhs@malform.no>,
	"'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Leif wrote:

> So, it seems to me that you, in the above, say that the 'zh'
> must be kept "free" so that it - most typically - can stand
> for Mandaran Chinese, but also so that it - in other contexts
> - can stand for one of the other encompassed Chinese languages.

No.  Not really.  See my other proposed solution.  I think I explain it in a
better (although slighter different) way.
>
> > I propose that all future subtags for Mandarin Chinese
> should use cmn.
> > I
> >
>
> I agree. In fact, I should perhaps have put more weight on
> that in the rewrite of the text that I made. For instance,
> new services which are not intented to use all encompassed
> languages, should prepare for the future inclusion of other
> of the encompassed langauges by using a spesific subtag.
>
> But in what, future situation would it be advicable to
> actually use the macrolanguage tag, do you think? (Because,
> what you say could, in my mind, mean that 'zh' should almost
> go out (of future) use.)

Only use the macrolanguage when you are sure that the item you wish to tag
is in one of the languages encompassed by the macrolanguage but you are
unsure/don't know/cannot presently identify which one.
>
> Is the macrolanguage tag only a tag for backwards
> compatibility? Or has it any future role?

See above.
>
> For instance, is there a difference - or likeness - between
> using the 'mul' tag and a macrolanguage tag? Should 'zh' be
> used as *the* tag for resources with several chinese
> languages, or should 'mul' be used instead? Or perhaps a third option?

I am not overly familiar with 'mul' and would need to read up on it to
answer this question.
>
> Currently the draft says about  'mul' that
>
>     "It SHOULD NOT be used when a list of languages (such as
>     Content-Language) or individual tags for each content
> element can be
>     used instead."
>
> Ought not the draft have an entry saying something about
> whether using the macrolanguage tag to cover all the
> encompassed languages is a good idea?

Indeed.  The draft should give guidance on when the macrolangauge may be
used.  I do not, as I have stated before, beleive we should be advising the
end user to tag the dominant language with the macrolanguage subtag.

> It seems to me that the same rules should count for
> macrolanguage tags as for mul, if or when they are used to
> play the same - though more spesific - role as 'mul'. I.e. if
> I as author/webserver want to catch all persons searching for
> 'chinese', then I should not simply rely on the old 'zh' tag,
> but should instead - when possible - list all the chinese
> languages. Likewise, for Norwegian, if the goal for me as
> author/server is to catch all Norwegian users to a
> single-language (one encompassing langauge) Norwegian web
> page, then I should not rely on 'no', but instead, if
> possible, use both nn, nb and no. Sensible?

Yes.  Sensible.  This is what I would do.  The existing (in draft 13)
macrolaguage field facilitates this.
>
> As I see it, a macrolanguage tag can be used on things which
> are "neutrally chinese" or "neutrally Norwegian".  "Neutral"
> should be understood either as field where there is of no
> interest or perhaps irrelevant to classify into encompassed
> languages. The macrolanguage tag might be used in context
> where there is no theoretical possibility that the same kind
> of resource, in the future, will be split into encompassed
> languages. (One cathegory where it will often be safe to use
> the macrolanguage tage is probably names of persons and
> juridic persons.
> Though for some public institutions may have spesific
> encompassing language names.)

Indeed.  But also, as stated above, where the end user has insufficient
knowledge to tag more accurately/precisely.

> > would propose the following text to deal with this (this is
> a bit of a
> > shot in the dark to get out of this mess so feel free to
> shoot me down :-)):
> >
>
> How about up? ;-)

Hmmm...  Localization is a wonderful thing ;-)

>
> > ---
> >
> > Macrolanguages have been designated within ISO 639-3 where
> there is a
> > one to many relationship between a subtag from another ISO 639
> > standard and more than one subtag within ISO 639-3.  In a number of
> > cases the macrolanguage has historically been used to denote one
> > dominant language within the designated macrolanguage.  In
> other cases
> > the macrolanguage has been widely used to denote more than one
> > language within a macrolanguage.  In order to facilitate backward
> > compatibility and legacy systems, for macrolanguages where this
> > situation occurs,a comment has been inserted within Comment Field 1
> > for the dominant related language(s) thus: Macrolanguage =
> [macrolanguageSubtag].
> >
>
> This sounds as a good idea.
>
> > Example 1: the dominant language for the macrolanguage
> subtag 'zh' is 'cmn'
> > (Mandarin Chinese), therefore Comment Field 1 would read:
> > Macrolanguage = zh Example 2: there is no particular
> dominant language
> > within the macrolanguage 'no' which encompasses 'nn' and 'nb'
> > therefore  Comment Field 1 for both subtags reads:
> Macrolanguage = no
> >
>
> The examples are not so clearly written, I feel. You meant
> that there should be a comment linking from the relevant
> encompassed language to the the macrolanguage tag. As I
> understand it, you by this comment want the list to inform
> abotu for which sublanguage tags the macrolanguage tag should
> be used as fallback. So, basically, you try to give info
> about which encompassed languages the macrolangauge tag is
> very direct fallback for. (And thus, thereby also inderectly
> noting for which languages it might not be a good fallback.)

Yes.  Although I don't think I put it very well.

>
> I think this should be formulated without using the term
> "dominant" and other postulate like wordings that could lead
> to debate.
>
> > There are [number] number of subtags within the LSR which
> incorporate
> > this facility.
> >
>
> There are 50 macrolanguage tags, if my RegEx served me well.
> And many more encompassed languages.
>
> > In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag.
> > However, in cases where a macrolanguage has been widely
> used to denote
> > a dominant language within the macrolanguage group, the registry
> > includes the macrolanguage within the first comment field
> within the
> > registry to facilitate fallback matching.
>
> So, if I got this right,  the point about the comment field
> is not to inform the reader that the macrolanguage tag could
> not be used for tagging, but simply to inform applications
> that they need to facilitate fallback matching.

Yes.

>
> >   Where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to
> denote a
> > dominant encompassed language, a duel language tag
>
> What does 'duel language tag' mean? Two language tags? Such
> as "cmn, zh"
> pr 'zh-cmn'?

I went a bit pear shaped here due to a 12 yr old requiring rescue from a
shopping centre 20 miles away :)  it should have read "dual".  In any case
it was just a thought that I had which went back to something John Cowan had
said previously about having two language tags. But I have changed my mind
on this as it does not fit my (current) view.

> > MAY be used in addition to the subtag specific to that encompassed
> > language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the
> > macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed dominant
> language variety
> > in which case just the macrolangauge subtag can be used.
> >
> > Give examples:
> >
> > ---
> >
> > There are not that many macrolanguages and I think we could
> do this -
> > it could also be updated at any time when further info becomes
> > avaiable as to macrolangauge usage.
> >
>
> Sounds like a good idea to give advice about all of them.

Thanks.

Debbie
> --
> leif halvard silli
>
>
>
>
>
>




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> > It's my impression that at least part of what kept us from going that route was
> >
> > (a) the scenarios in which extlang-to-macrolanguage fallback didn't provide useful results,
> > (b) the scenarios in which extlang might hinder useful right-truncation fallback
> > in existing implementations because region or script are more useful than extlang, and

> I see (a) and (b) as being practically the same argument, since they are
> both focused on kinds of right-truncation fallback.  Any heuristic that returns
> something other than what the user explicitly asked for deserves a "health
> warning".  The question is whether we allow a heuristic with known limitations
> to override all other concerns.

I agree, and also I'm concerned that regardless of the form of the tag, then 4647bis is going to have to address fallback in some way that is smarter than right-truncation.  None of the techniques we've discussed work for all apps with pure right-truncation

> > (c) the assumption that, if we use extlang at all, then we must use it for all macrolanguages
> > rather than being able to specify particular cases (no cherry picking).

> I don't see this as an obstacle.

It seems to me that we're cherry picking zh no matter which direction we go, so I don't think this should be a major concern.

==========================================

> As co-chair:

> I'm very concerned that this issue continues to come up.  That suggests
> that either our rationale isn't clear enough in the i-d, or that we've got it
> wrong.  It could be that this is just one of those situations where there is
> no "right" answer, and we need to just pick one.

> When Peter started this thread, he gave us a useful explanation of how
> two differing points of view led to our current situation.  Perhaps it might
> be useful to work through the pros and cons of the alternatives from
> the perspectives of important user communities, both as producers and
> as consumers of tagged data, new and legacy.

I agree.  I think that we've come to the current point through good intentions, but that the end result doesn't give us the clarity that we originally expected.  I think we need to back up a bit and look at the bigger picture rather than trying to tweak a couple paragraphs.

- Shawn

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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--===============0200685997==

Shawn wrote:

> I like Debbie's approach much better than Leif's.

Thank you :-)

 Leif
> delegates my concern to a "context", which I'm not sure makes
> things any clearer since applications sometimes use multiple
> "contexts".  Eg: if Karen's movie database is currently
> offline, then it may fit in a "context" that allows the cmn
> tag.  If the database then moves online (l ike to be sold on
> Amazon), then the context may change to a way that specifies
> the zh tag.)
>
> I get tripped up over the last sentence:  "Where the
> macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a
> dominant encompassed language, a duel language tag MAY be
> used in addition to the subtag specific to that encompassed
> language unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the
> macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed dominant language
> variety in which case just the macrolangauge subtag can be used."

Yes.  As stated previously, things went a bit pear shaped here.  Ignore it.

>
> Which sounds to me like the opposite of her introduction.  It
> seems to me that there are 3 cases:
>
> 1) The case where macrolanguages were never used (eg: English).
> 2) The case where a macrolanguage was used primarily for a
> dominant language (eg: Mandarin)
> 3) The case where a non-dominant language has historically
> been tagged with a macrolanguage because there wasn't another
> choice (eg: Cantonese).
>
> I think that all three cases should be discoverable from the
> registry.  My very rough attempt at making this distinction
> in Debbie's last paragraph:
>
> In general, the most specific subtag to form the language tag
> MUST be used. However, in cases where a macrolanguage has
> been widely used to denote a dominant language within the
> macrolanguage group, the registry includes the macrolanguage
> within the first comment field within the registry to
> facilitate fallback matching.  Where the macrolanguage tag
> has been historically used to denote a dominant encompassed
> language, that macrolanguage tag SHOULD be used for matching
> in addition to the tag appropriate for the specific
> encompassed language.  When the emcompassed language is not
> the dominate language but historically only had the
> macrolanguage available for tagging, then the macrolanguage
> MAY be used for matching in addition tot the appropriate
> specific encompassed language.

This sounds pretty good.  But I think I prefer my second solution (adding
;1) to the dominant language with the may on those rated 2 or more (or none
if the additional rating system is unacceptable)
>
> I'm trying to distinguish between cmn in the first SHOULD
> case and yue in the second MAY case.

I like it.

>
> Whatever happens I think examples would be a good idea.

Indeed.

>
> zh -- Data historically tagged with the Chinese
> macrolanguage.  Presumed to be predominantly Mandarin, but
> may include other specific languages such as Cantonese.
> cmn -- Data newly tagged as Mandarin.  When matching
> applications SHOULD match zh with cmn so that the historical
> data is recognized.
> yue -- Data newly tagged as Cantonese.  When matching
> applications MAY match zh if they feel that some Cantonese
> data in their context may have been tagged as Chinese.

Seems very reasonable to me.

Debbie
>
> - Shawn
> ________________________________________
> From: Debbie Garside [debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 4:34 AM
> To: 'Leif Halvard Silli'; Shawn Steele
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell'
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> I have to say I don't like the way we are contemplating
> dealing with Macrolanguages.  Just to outline my perception
> of the current situation:
>
> A macrolanguage has been designated within ISO 639-3 where
> there is a one to many relationship between a subtag from
> another ISO 639 standard and more than one subtag within ISO
> 639-3.  If we look at zh/zho as an example we can see that
> this one to many macrolanguage/languages relationship
> encompasses the following languages:
>
>   cdo Min Dong Chinese
>   cjy Jinyu Chinese
>   cmn Mandarin Chinese
>   cpx Pu-Xian Chinese
>   czh Huizhou Chinese
>   czo Min Zhong Chinese
>   gan Gan Chinese
>   hak Hakka Chinese
>   hsn Xiang Chinese
>   mnp Min Bei Chinese
>   nan Min Nan Chinese
>   wuu Wu Chinese
>   yue Yue Chinese
>
> In this situation, historically, the macrolanguage subtag has
> been used to denote a dominant language in particular - cmn
> Mandarin Chinese.
>
> However, whilst this is undoubtedly true, undoubtedly other
> languages within the macrolanguage have also been encoded
> using the macrolanguage.
>
> Where we seem to be getting into a bit of a pickle is with
> the suggestion that zh should be used instead of cmn.  I
> think this would be a big mistake and does not facilitate
> backward compatibility.
>
> I propose that all future subtags for Mandarin Chinese should
> use cmn. I would propose the following text to deal with this
> (this is a bit of a shot in the dark to get out of this mess
> so feel free to shoot me down :-)):
>
> ---
>
> Macrolanguages have been designated within ISO 639-3 where
> there is a one to many relationship between a subtag from
> another ISO 639 standard and more than one subtag within ISO
> 639-3.  In a number of cases the macrolanguage has
> historically been used to denote one dominant language within
> the designated macrolanguage.  In other cases the
> macrolanguage has been widely used to denote more than one
> language within a macrolanguage.  In order to facilitate
> backward compatibility and legacy systems, for macrolanguages
> where this situation occurs, a comment has been inserted
> within Comment Field 1 for the dominant related language(s)
> thus: Macrolanguage = [macrolanguageSubtag].
>
> Example 1: the dominant language for the macrolanguage subtag
> 'zh' is 'cmn'
> (Mandarin Chinese), therefore Comment Field 1 would read:
> Macrolanguage = zh Example 2: there is no particular dominant
> language within the macrolanguage 'no' which encompasses 'nn'
> and 'nb' therefore  Comment Field 1 for both subtags reads:
> Macrolanguage = no
>
> There are [number] number of subtags within the LSR which
> incorporate this facility.
>
> In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language
> tag. However, in cases where a macrolanguage has been widely
> used to denote a dominant language within the macrolanguage
> group, the registry includes the macrolanguage within the
> first comment field within the registry to facilitate
> fallback matching.  Where the macrolanguage tag has been
> historically used to denote a dominant encompassed language,
> a duel language tag MAY be used in addition to the subtag
> specific to that encompassed language unless it is necessary
> to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that
> enclosed dominant language variety in which case just the
> macrolangauge subtag can be used.
>
> Give examples:
>
> ---
>
> There are not that many macrolanguages and I think we could
> do this - it could also be updated at any time when further
> info becomes avaiable as to macrolangauge usage.
>
> Best regards
>
> Debbie
>
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf
> > Of Leif Halvard Silli
> > Sent: 06 May 2008 09:54
> > To: Shawn Steele
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > Shawn Steele 2008-05-06 05.32:
> > > > I'm not saying that cmn = zh, just that for compatibility, most
> > > > applications want to treat them as the same. I can
> understand why
> > > > some people would want cmn (although it makes our lives harder).
> > >
> > > In that case I think that the draft should be very clear
> > when "zh" is expected to be used and when "cmn" is expected to be
> > used.  I'm thoroughly confused by this:
> > >
> > > "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the
> > language tag. However, where the macrolanguage tag has been
> > historically used to denote a dominant encompassed
> language, it SHOULD
> > be used in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed
> language
> > unless it is necessary to clearly distinguish the
> macrolanguage as a
> > whole from that enclosed dominant language variety."
> > >
> >
> > How about this change:
> >
> >     "In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language
> > tag.
> >     However, where the macrolanguage tag has historically
> been used as
> >     if it was a microlanguage tag for one particular microlanguage,
> > the
> >     macrolanguage tag MAY continue to be used this way, as
> long as the
> >     correct microlanguage tag – or another microlanguage
> tag from the
> >     same macrolanguage – is not introduced to the same context. The
> >     macrolanguage tag MUST NOT be used as tag for one particular
> >     microlanguage if another microlanguage tag from the same
> >     macrolangauge occurs in the same context."
> >
> > The above
> >
> >    1. more clearly covers the possibility that also another
> >       microlanguage than the dominant one may have been referred to
> > via
> >       the macrolanguage tag.
> >    2. speaks clearly against e.g. using "no" and "nn" in the same
> > context.
> >    3. is more clear about which exception that is hereby
> > permitted: what
> >       is permitted is to *continue to use* the
> macrolanguage tag in a
> >       *narrow* meaning, if - indeed - it has had that
> narrow meaning
> > in
> >       a particular context. (For example, that 'zh' always and
> >       everywhere has meant 'mandarin' just because the text was in
> >       Mandarin, is, as we know, debated. This must be judged per
> > context.)
> >    4. gives rules for when to stop using the macrolanguag tag as
> >       reference to one particular microlanguage.
> >
> >
> > > This sounds to me like "use zh instead of cmn because
> > that's what was used historically."... unless its necessary
> to clearly
> > distguish the macrolanguage from the dominant language variety.  If
> > normally one tags the dominant language as the
> macrolanguage, how is
> > it going to be possible to distinguish the macrolanguage from it?
> > Presumably cmn would clearly distinguish Mandarin, however
> zh can't be
> > used to specify the Chinese macrolanguage because it is
> also used to
> > mean Mandarin, in fact that's clearly the preferred meaning.
> > >
> > > So if I want to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage, how
> > do I clearly tag it?
> > >
> >
> > Then, obviously, you must be consequent about using 'cmn'
> for Mandarin
> > so that you can use 'zh' for the macrolanguage. I don't know if the
> > draft is clear enought about the need for spesificly
> tagging things as
> > macrolangauge?
> >
> > (In Mac OS X, Bokmål and Nynorsk is used too much. For instance we
> > have a Norwegian list and sorting format, but Mac OS X currently
> > erroneously refers to it as "Bokmål sorting"
> > and "Nynorsk sorting". So, there are clearly a neeed for the
> > macrolanguage tag to for instance tag things that are the
> same in the
> > entire macrolanguage.)
> > --
> > leif halvard silli
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>





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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Concrete text fixes (Re: I'm really confused by chinese
	in	3066bis)
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My complaint with this change is that the language scenario is not 
particularly relevant to the industry that text was aimed at. I also do 
not want to suggest that users use "zxxx" for audio language 
identification. That code is there as a last resort -- it should only be 
used when an application insists on a script and there isn't a relevant 
one. This scenario is significantly less likely than a required language 
field on audio-only content (zxx). Cataloging systems don't typically 
force a script on the user. Could we remove the last line? 

In the rest of the example: Change to "cmn-Hant" and "cmn" if you feel 
that strongly that the Chinese language situation is clear. There's not a 
whole lot of localization activity around Uzbek in my industry. The fact 
is, the working group does not agree on what to do in this scenario.

Using Uzbek gets you out of drawing attention to the flaw in the Chinese 
language situation. I request that we not change the example and provide 
guidance in this area for Mandarin Chinese as my analysis of industry data 
indicates this is a source of confusion and inconsistency. 

Regards,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384

ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/04/2008 11:55:27 AM:

> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html
> 
> 1. In one of the fragments Shawn cites, we have:

> When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of 
> human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the 
> language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the 
> subtitles to a movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese, 
> Mandarin, Traditional script), but the audio track for the same 
> language would be tagged "zh-cmn". 
> 
> The point in this text is not about macrolanguages or grandfathered 
> tags (it is in a section about the use of script subtags), so that 
> just muddies the issue for readers.
> 
> My suggested fix is:

> When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of 
> human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the 
> language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the 
> subtitles to a movie might use the tag "uz-Arab" (Uzbek in Arabic 
> script), but the audio track for the same language should not be 
> tagged "uz-Arab"; it should be tagged "uz". (The tag "uz-Zxxx" can 
> also be used where content is not written: Zxxx = "Code for 
> unwritten documents".)

> The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that, 
> starting at "Some of the languages in the registry are labeled 
> "macrolanguages" by ISO 639-3".
> 
> I've looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone 
> has concrete suggestions for additions or changed text, they should 
> present them.
> 
> Mark_______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:42 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:

> My complaint with this change is that the language scenario is not
> particularly relevant to the industry that text was aimed at. I also do
> not want to suggest that users use "zxxx" for audio language
> identification. That code is there as a last resort -- it should only be
> used when an application insists on a script and there isn't a relevant
> one. This scenario is significantly less likely than a required language
> field on audio-only content (zxx). Cataloging systems don't typically
> force a script on the user. Could we remove the last line?


I have no objection to qualifying the last sentence. It is true that

(The tag "uz-Zxxx" can also be used where content is not written: Zxxx =
"Code for unwritten documents".)

But I understand your concern that this should be done carefully. How about:

(The tag "uz-Zxxx" can also be used where content is not written: Zxxx =
"Code for unwritten documents". However, use of this tag can prevent
matching for queries using "uz' alone, depending on the system.)

>
>
> In the rest of the example: Change to "cmn-Hant" and "cmn" if you feel
> that strongly that the Chinese language situation is clear. There's not a
> whole lot of localization activity around Uzbek in my industry. The fact
> is, the working group does not agree on what to do in this scenario.


We clearly need to address the situation with Mandarin. But *this* point in
the document (look a the context for the paragraph) is the wrong place to do
that. The place to do that is below, where the topic is being discussed.


>
> Using Uzbek gets you out of drawing attention to the flaw in the Chinese
> language situation. I request that we not change the example and provide
> guidance in this area for Mandarin Chinese as my analysis of industry data
> indicates this is a source of confusion and inconsistency.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
> Metadata Systems Designer
> Sony Pictures Entertainment
> 310.244.4384
>
> ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/04/2008 11:55:27 AM:
>
> > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html
> >
> > 1. In one of the fragments Shawn cites, we have:
>
> > When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of
> > human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the
> > language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the
> > subtitles to a movie might use the tag "zh-cmn-Hant" (Chinese,
> > Mandarin, Traditional script), but the audio track for the same
> > language would be tagged "zh-cmn".
> >
> > The point in this text is not about macrolanguages or grandfathered
> > tags (it is in a section about the use of script subtags), so that
> > just muddies the issue for readers.
> >
> > My suggested fix is:
>
> > When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of
> > human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the
> > language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the
> > subtitles to a movie might use the tag "uz-Arab" (Uzbek in Arabic
> > script), but the audio track for the same language should not be
> > tagged "uz-Arab"; it should be tagged "uz". (The tag "uz-Zxxx" can
> > also be used where content is not written: Zxxx = "Code for
> > unwritten documents".)
>
> > The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that,
> > starting at "Some of the languages in the registry are labeled
> > "macrolanguages" by ISO 639-3".
> >
> > I've looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone
> > has concrete suggestions for additions or changed text, they should
> > present them.
> >
> > Mark_______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>


-- 
Mark

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<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:42 PM,  &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
My complaint with this change is that the language scenario is not<br>
particularly relevant to the industry that text was aimed at. I also do<br>
not want to suggest that users use &quot;zxxx&quot; for audio language<br>
identification. That code is there as a last resort -- it should only be<br>
used when an application insists on a script and there isn&#39;t a relevant<br>
one. This scenario is significantly less likely than a required language<br>
field on audio-only content (zxx). Cataloging systems don&#39;t typically<br>
force a script on the user. Could we remove the last line?</blockquote><div><br>I have no objection to qualifying the last sentence. It is true that <br>
<br>
(The tag &quot;uz-Zxxx&quot; can also be used where content is not written: Zxxx = &quot;Code for unwritten documents&quot;.)<br>
<br>
But I understand your concern that this should be done carefully. How about:<br>
<br>
(The tag &quot;uz-Zxxx&quot; can also be used where content is not written: Zxxx
= &quot;Code for unwritten documents&quot;. However, use of this tag can prevent
matching for queries using &quot;uz&#39; alone, depending on the system.)&nbsp;</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
In the rest of the example: Change to &quot;cmn-Hant&quot; and &quot;cmn&quot; if you feel<br>
that strongly that the Chinese language situation is clear. There&#39;s not a<br>
whole lot of localization activity around Uzbek in my industry. The fact<br>
is, the working group does not agree on what to do in this scenario.</blockquote><div><br>We clearly need to address the situation with Mandarin. But *this* point in the document (look a the context for the paragraph) is the wrong place to do that. The place to do that is below, where the topic is being discussed.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
Using Uzbek gets you out of drawing attention to the flaw in the Chinese<br>
language situation. I request that we not change the example and provide<br>
guidance in this area for Mandarin Chinese as my analysis of industry data<br>
indicates this is a source of confusion and inconsistency.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Karen Broome<br>
Metadata Systems Designer<br>
Sony Pictures Entertainment<br>
310.244.4384<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> wrote on 05/04/2008 11:55:27 AM:<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
&gt; <a href="http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html" target="_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13.html</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 1. In one of the fragments Shawn cites, we have:<br>
<br>
&gt; When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of<br>
&gt; human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the<br>
&gt; language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the<br>
&gt; subtitles to a movie might use the tag &quot;zh-cmn-Hant&quot; (Chinese,<br>
&gt; Mandarin, Traditional script), but the audio track for the same<br>
&gt; language would be tagged &quot;zh-cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The point in this text is not about macrolanguages or grandfathered<br>
&gt; tags (it is in a section about the use of script subtags), so that<br>
&gt; just muddies the issue for readers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; My suggested fix is:<br>
<br>
&gt; When labeling content that is unwritten (such as a recording of<br>
&gt; human speech), the script subtag should not be used, even if the<br>
&gt; language is customarily written in several scripts. Thus the<br>
&gt; subtitles to a movie might use the tag &quot;uz-Arab&quot; (Uzbek in Arabic<br>
&gt; script), but the audio track for the same language should not be<br>
&gt; tagged &quot;uz-Arab&quot;; it should be tagged &quot;uz&quot;. (The tag &quot;uz-Zxxx&quot; can<br>
&gt; also be used where content is not written: Zxxx = &quot;Code for<br>
&gt; unwritten documents&quot;.)<br>
<br>
&gt; The discussion of the treatment of macrolanguages is below that,<br>
&gt; starting at &quot;Some of the languages in the registry are labeled<br>
&gt; &quot;macrolanguages&quot; by ISO 639-3&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;ve looked it over, and it does not seem unclear to me. If anyone<br>
&gt; has concrete suggestions for additions or changed text, they should<br>
&gt; present them.<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; Mark_______________________________________________<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Knowing about the use of language tags (Was:
 Questions	before submitting draft-4645bis-05
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To Debbie's point, Googling won't find evidence of any tags used in studio 
archives, Digital Cinema Packages, Electronic Program Guides, Timed Text 
for D-Cinema, etc. In fact, Googling isn't likely to find many tagged 
audio resources at all.  - K.



ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/05/2008 09:36:06 AM:

> Stephane wrote:
> 
> > May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at
> > least on the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They
> > probably have it somewhere.
> 
> I am sure this would be interesting but the thing is RFC 4646 is not 
just
> used on the web. The last time I looked the TEI were using it and I 
think
> quite a lot of archiving systems will be using it.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Debbie
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]
> > Sent: 05 May 2008 16:26
> > To: Debbie Garside
> > Cc: 'John Cowan'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> > Subject: Knowing about the use of language tags (Was:
> > Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
> >
> > On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:43:25PM +0100,  Debbie Garside
> > <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote  a message of 56 lines which said:
> >
> > > I am hearing this exact same thing today with regard to FX!
> >  My point
> > > is, we cannot possibly be expected to know whether subtags
> > have been
> > > used or not used
> >
> > May be the Google or Yahoo people can give us statistics at
> > least on the use of language tags in public HTML pages? They
> > probably have it somewhere.
> >
> > X % of HTML pages have a lang or xml:lang attribute X % of
> > the tags have only one subtag, the language X % of the tags
> > are well-formed X % of the tags are valid Complete list of
> > language subtags seen in the wild etc...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 


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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Debbie Garside scripsit:

> Only use the macrolanguage when you are sure that the item you wish to tag
> is in one of the languages encompassed by the macrolanguage but you are
> unsure/don't know/cannot presently identify which one.

Or "do not care".

-- 
Not to perambulate                 John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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during the hours of repose
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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> > Only use the macrolanguage when you are sure that the item you wish to tag
> > is in one of the languages encompassed by the macrolanguage but you are
> >  unsure/don't know/cannot presently identify which one.

> Or "do not care".

Is "do not care" a reasonable choice?  Seems that if you knew which specific language it was, then it wouldn't matter much if you used that if you didn't care.

- Shawn
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Cc: ltru-bounces@ietf.org, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>,
	Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Shawn, for the record, you're doing a good job of speaking for me. Please 
continue.... :)

Karen Broome


ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/05/2008 10:14:43 PM:


> 
> I don't want to speak for Karen, but I doubt she wants most Mandarin
> to be tagged zh, but then use cmn for her own needs.  If she wanted 
> her own private use of language tags I doubt she would've been so 
> vocal on the list :)


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd:  I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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The reason "zh" is special is because in written form, it is mutually 
intelligible with the written forms used by other dialect speakers even if 
there can be subtle differences (Cantonese subtitles). In spoken form, the 
languages are not mutually intelligible, so while I know the folks on this 
list don't generally like splitting spoken and written language hairs, the 
truth of the matter seems to be this:

Written Form

zh = written Chinese (most likely Mandarin)
zh-yue = written Cantonese
zh-cmn = definitely written Mandarin

These tags can be used with the Hant, Hani, and Hans tags. From my 
experience, most spoken Mandarin and Cantonese language classifiers use a 
made-up tag rather than "zh." I've seen this in moving image archives all 
over the world. 

However, I'm sure I'm not the only one with an archive of "Chinese" 
objects where we don't know whether the language is spoken, written, 
Cantonese, Mandarin, or Taiwanese. The legacy ISO structure has itself 
created a need for "zh" where the semantic equals, "We don't know what 
kind of Chinese this is because the tags weren't specific enough at the 
time we created this database."

Spoken Forms

cmn = spoken Mandarin
yue = spoken Cantonese
cmn-TW = spoken Taiwanese Mandarin

SHOULD NOT use script subtags with these forms.

I'll throw that out there for the sake of argument. 

Regards,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384

ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/06/2008 11:32:49 AM:

> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf 
Of
> > Mark Davis
> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 3:14 PM
> 
> 
> > Right, and for exactly those reasons you don't want to willy-nilly
> > take what's in the registry. It sounds like what you want in the
> > registry is:
> >
> > Subtag: br
> > Good-Fallback: fr
> > Good-Fallback: xx
> >
> > That is, a field that would give you the best fallbacks in order. That
> > is just not the same as
> >
> > Subtag: yy
> > Macrolanguage: xx
> 
> Mark, you keep coming back to general fallback scenarios, and I 
> think we've agreed that we don't want to register specific fallback 
> chains. It seems to me that the only reason to jump from the 
> specific problems of "zh" to a discussion of general fallback is 
> that we don't want to consider the "zh" case as somehow special -- 
> because that smacks of cherry picking. But it seems to me that's 
> just trying to ignore the reality that "zh" *is* a special situation
> because of the dualism in its usage, and is not just one instance of
> the general fallback scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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What language does my screen reader speak if the page is coded "zh"?   Is 
"zh" sufficient for this purpose? We can't predict all the ways a language 
tag might be interpreted by an application -- even in text contexts -- so 
I think the muddiness of the "zh" tag is a problem. It does not 
sufficiently identify the language.

K.


ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/06/2008 12:08:25 PM:

> > Most systems and system locales will boot up in "Chinese".
> 
> Perhaps you've oversimplified the problem.  Our customers will want 
> voice interaction to be in the spoken language, Chinese is no longer
> sufficient for the system.  Even on a web site, audio clips may be 
> available so Chinese doesn't necessarily provide enough granularity.
> 
> - Shawn
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 


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Not so sure that we will get accuracy; frankly I think the introduction of
cmn, arb, etc. were well intentioned, but in retrospect a mistake. There was
no reason not to treat zh, ar, etc just like we treated de. There is no
substantive difference between zh:yue and de:gsw.

Given the existence and long usage of zh in IT, the introduction of cmn
(etc) will inevitably just end up with mistagged data, mishandled lookups,
and unsatisfied users, unless one follows the strategy that unless you have
a strong reason not to, treat cmn as a synonym for zh. (In fact, it is
simplest to remap cmn-* to zh-* on input.)

[Our best course of action for compatibility and interoperability would be
to deprecate cmn, arb, and the few others in that section, but I doubt that
we could get consensus on that, so I'd never brought it up.]

Mark

>From earlier, for context:

The situation is messy, and part of the problem is that ISO 639 was
dramatically underspecified. My interpretation, before I got into this
arena, was that when the standard say X, it was short for "Standard X". Thus
it was perfectly reasonable to make the following change:

de - German  (= Standard German, Hochdeutsch)
//later add
gsw - Swiss German
frk - Frankish German
sxu - Saxon German
...

The code de really meant Standard German, so adding a new code gsw is fine.
It is a different language, so we are not narrowing de. We would NOT make de
a macrolanguage and add gsw and then *hde (Standard German). We recognize
that past Swiss German content was tagged with de since that was the 'best'
available code, but we recommend that people switch.

*I was really surprised to see a contrary tack taken with ar. *I would have
expected it to behave just like German.

ar - Arabic (= Standard Arabic)
later add
pga - Sudanese Creole Arabic, etc.

But *don't* add arb = Standard Arabic, because we already have one (ar =
ara).

Water under the bridge, but had this approach been taken with Arabic,
Chinese, and so on, users of the standard would not be faced with a
difficult situation.


On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
wrote:

> Hi -
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
> > To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:13 AM
> > Subject: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
> ...
> > Of course, that's the general problem we're facing: we must find a
> solution
> > to the dual usage or "zh" or abandon any possibility of allowing "zh" to
> have
> > its generic meaning, yet existing usage seems to imply that the latter
> isn't
> > an option, so a solution to the dual usage is essential - but we're at a
> loss
> > as to how to solve it.
> ...
>
> This points to the "soft underbelly" of "tag wisely" - the assumption that
> the tagger can reasonably anticipate how the "consumers" of the tag
> will want to use that information.
>
> In retrospect, I think it would have been better to have taken the route
> of
>   zh -> some kind of Chinese, likely (but not guaranteed) to be Mandarin
>   zh-cmn -> Chinese, specifically Mandarin
>   ar -> some kind of Arabic, likely (but not guaranteed) to be Standard
> Arabic
>   ar-arb -> Arabic, specificall Standard Arabic
>   de -> some kind of German, overwhelmingly likely (but not guaranteed) to
> be Hochdeutsch
>   de-*hde -> German, specifically Hochdeutsch
>
> Even recognizing that reasoning about "language X is some kind of Y" can
> be
> horribly fuzzy, this would still be better aligned with a "principle of
> least
> astonishment" for folks trying to understand the specification, trying to
> tag data,
> or trying to formulate a query.  Yes, huge amounts of data might end up
> being tagged
> less precisely than we might like, but at least they'd still be tagged
> accurately.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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Not so sure that we will get accuracy; frankly I think the introduction of cmn, arb, etc. were well intentioned, but in retrospect a mistake. There was no reason not to treat zh, ar, etc just like we treated de. There is no substantive difference between zh:yue and de:gsw.<br>
<br>Given the existence and long usage of zh in IT, the introduction of cmn (etc) will inevitably just end up with mistagged data, mishandled lookups, and unsatisfied users, unless one follows the strategy that unless you have a strong reason not to, treat cmn as a synonym for zh. (In fact, it is simplest to remap cmn-* to zh-* on input.)<br>
<br>[Our best course of action for compatibility and interoperability would be to deprecate cmn, arb, and the few others in that section, but I doubt that we could get consensus on that, so I&#39;d never brought it up.]<br>
<br>Mark<br><br>From earlier, for context:<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">The situation is messy, and part of the problem is that ISO 639 was
dramatically underspecified. My interpretation, before I got into this
arena, was that when the standard say X, it was short for &quot;Standard X&quot;.
Thus it was perfectly reasonable to make the following change:<br><br></div>
<div style="margin-left: 80px;">de - German&nbsp; (= Standard German, Hochdeutsch)<br>//later add<br>gsw - Swiss German<br>frk - Frankish German<br>sxu - Saxon German<br>...<br><br></div><div style="margin-left: 40px;">The
code de really meant Standard German, so adding a new code gsw is fine.
It is a different language, so we are not narrowing de. We would NOT
make de a <span class="nfakPe">macrolanguage</span> and add gsw and
then *hde (Standard German). We recognize that past Swiss German
content was tagged with de since that was the &#39;best&#39; available code,
but we recommend that people switch.<br><br><b><i>I was really surprised to see a contrary tack taken with ar.</i> </b>I would have expected it to behave just like German.<br><br></div>
<div style="margin-left: 80px;">ar - Arabic (= Standard Arabic)<br>later add<br>pga
      - Sudanese Creole Arabic, etc.<br></div><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><br>But *don&#39;t* add arb = Standard Arabic, because we already have one (ar = ara).<br><br>Water
under the bridge, but had this approach been taken with Arabic,
Chinese, and so on, users of the standard would not be faced with a
difficult situation.<br></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Randy Presuhn &lt;<a href="mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi -<br>
<br>
As a technical contributor...<br>
<br>
&gt; From: &quot;Peter Constable&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:13 AM<br>
&gt; Subject: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to &quot;zh&quot;<br>
...<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; Of course, that&#39;s the general problem we&#39;re facing: we must find a solution<br>
&gt; to the dual usage or &quot;zh&quot; or abandon any possibility of allowing &quot;zh&quot; to have<br>
&gt; its generic meaning, yet existing usage seems to imply that the latter isn&#39;t<br>
&gt; an option, so a solution to the dual usage is essential - but we&#39;re at a loss<br>
&gt; as to how to solve it.<br>
</div>...<br>
<br>
This points to the &quot;soft underbelly&quot; of &quot;tag wisely&quot; - the assumption that<br>
the tagger can reasonably anticipate how the &quot;consumers&quot; of the tag<br>
will want to use that information.<br>
<br>
In retrospect, I think it would have been better to have taken the route of<br>
 &nbsp; zh -&gt; some kind of Chinese, likely (but not guaranteed) to be Mandarin<br>
 &nbsp; zh-cmn -&gt; Chinese, specifically Mandarin<br>
 &nbsp; ar -&gt; some kind of Arabic, likely (but not guaranteed) to be Standard Arabic<br>
 &nbsp; ar-arb -&gt; Arabic, specificall Standard Arabic<br>
 &nbsp; de -&gt; some kind of German, overwhelmingly likely (but not guaranteed) to be Hochdeutsch<br>
 &nbsp; de-*hde -&gt; German, specifically Hochdeutsch<br>
<br>
Even recognizing that reasoning about &quot;language X is some kind of Y&quot; can be<br>
horribly fuzzy, this would still be better aligned with a &quot;principle of least<br>
astonishment&quot; for folks trying to understand the specification, trying to tag data,<br>
or trying to formulate a query. &nbsp;Yes, huge amounts of data might end up being tagged<br>
less precisely than we might like, but at least they&#39;d still be tagged accurately.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Randy<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 19:21:40 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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I think the answer is Standard Chinese (Mandarin), just like the answer for
German is Standard German (Hochdeutsch), not Schwytzerduetsch or other kinds
of German, even though before 2006 the Schwytzerduetsch would have been
tagged with 'de' or "de-CH".

All of the language tags were muddy to one degree or another.

Mark

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 6:55 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:

> What language does my screen reader speak if the page is coded "zh"?   Is
> "zh" sufficient for this purpose? We can't predict all the ways a language
> tag might be interpreted by an application -- even in text contexts -- so
> I think the muddiness of the "zh" tag is a problem. It does not
> sufficiently identify the language.
>
> K.
>
>
> ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/06/2008 12:08:25 PM:
>
> > > Most systems and system locales will boot up in "Chinese".
> >
> > Perhaps you've oversimplified the problem.  Our customers will want
> > voice interaction to be in the spoken language, Chinese is no longer
> > sufficient for the system.  Even on a web site, audio clips may be
> > available so Chinese doesn't necessarily provide enough granularity.
> >
> > - Shawn
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
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I think the answer is Standard Chinese (Mandarin), just like the answer for German is Standard German (Hochdeutsch), not Schwytzerduetsch or other kinds of German, even though before 2006 the Schwytzerduetsch would have been tagged with &#39;de&#39; or &quot;de-CH&quot;.<br>
<br>All of the language tags were muddy to one degree or another.<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 6:55 PM,  &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">What language does my screen reader speak if the page is coded &quot;zh&quot;? &nbsp; Is<br>
&quot;zh&quot; sufficient for this purpose? We can&#39;t predict all the ways a language<br>
tag might be interpreted by an application -- even in text contexts -- so<br>
I think the muddiness of the &quot;zh&quot; tag is a problem. It does not<br>
sufficiently identify the language.<br>
<br>
K.<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> wrote on 05/06/2008 12:08:25 PM:<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
&gt; &gt; Most systems and system locales will boot up in &quot;Chinese&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Perhaps you&#39;ve oversimplified the problem. &nbsp;Our customers will want<br>
&gt; voice interaction to be in the spoken language, Chinese is no longer<br>
&gt; sufficient for the system. &nbsp;Even on a web site, audio clips may be<br>
&gt; available so Chinese doesn&#39;t necessarily provide enough granularity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - Shawn<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Hi there,

   First, I would like to state that even in written form using Hant/s/ 
i, the written Minnan/Hakka/Mandarin CAN BE mutually intelligible.

   Second, in Taiwan, we have the need to distinguish
   Written Mandarin-Hant, Latn
   Written Minnan-Hant, Latn
   Written Hakka-Hant, Latn
   and the (quasi)-official Latin orthography for Mandarin/Minnan/ 
Hakka is very different from each other.
   We of course also need to distinguish spoken Mandarin/Minnan/Hakka

   Finally,  this issue also have social linguistic impact. Treat  
zh=Mandarin and use nan/hak/yue for other "Chinese"
   will either make people feel non-Mandarin Chinese is inferior or  
non-Mandarin Chinese is not Chinese.
   I understand this is not the intent of the language tag but such  
kind of social linguistic impact is certainly there.

best
pektiong

On May 7, 2008, at 9:49 AM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com 
 > wrote:

> The reason "zh" is special is because in written form, it is mutually
> intelligible with the written forms used by other dialect speakers  
> even if
> there can be subtle differences (Cantonese subtitles). In spoken  
> form, the
> languages are not mutually intelligible, so while I know the folks  
> on this
> list don't generally like splitting spoken and written language  
> hairs, the
> truth of the matter seems to be this:
>
> Written Form
>
> zh = written Chinese (most likely Mandarin)
> zh-yue = written Cantonese
> zh-cmn = definitely written Mandarin
>
> These tags can be used with the Hant, Hani, and Hans tags. From my
> experience, most spoken Mandarin and Cantonese language classifiers  
> use a
> made-up tag rather than "zh." I've seen this in moving image  
> archives all
> over the world.
>
> However, I'm sure I'm not the only one with an archive of "Chinese"
> objects where we don't know whether the language is spoken, written,
> Cantonese, Mandarin, or Taiwanese. The legacy ISO structure has itself
> created a need for "zh" where the semantic equals, "We don't know what
> kind of Chinese this is because the tags weren't specific enough at  
> the
> time we created this database."
>
> Spoken Forms
>
> cmn = spoken Mandarin
> yue = spoken Cantonese
> cmn-TW = spoken Taiwanese Mandarin
>
> SHOULD NOT use script subtags with these forms.
>
> I'll throw that out there for the sake of argument.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
> Metadata Systems Designer
> Sony Pictures Entertainment
> 310.244.4384
>
>

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Doug Ewell scripsit:
> John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:
> 
> >> So if I want to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage, how do I 
> >> clearly tag it?
> >
> > You can't.  But a macrolanguage is a group of languages that are 
> > treated as one for certain purposes.  Actual, individual documents 
> > have to be in a specific language.
> 
> I thought we had more than a few use cases of content in a 
> semi-determined language (e.g. "some Nahuatl language, not sure which 
> one") that would be properly tagged with a collection code.  This is 
> even less specific than a macrolanguage.

Indeed.  Just because a document must be in a specific language does not
mean that the tagger always knows what it is.  One may properly tag a
document und-Cyrl if that's all you know, or just und if *that's* all
you know.  That doesn't change the fact that the document is in fact
in Bulgarian.

-- 
Some people open all the Windows;       John Cowan
wise wives welcome the spring           cowan@ccil.org
by moving the Unix.                     http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
  --ad for Unix Book Units (U.K.)
        (see http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/unix3image.gif)
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> So if all you know about a document is that it's in some flavor of 
> Arabic, you tag it "ar".  If you know that it's in Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic, 
> and wish to specify that, then you tag it "acq".  And if you know that 
> it's in Standard Arabic, then you tag it either:
> 
> - "ar" if you want the emphasis to be on accessibility to everyone who 
> requests "ar", or
> 
> - "arb" if you want the emphasis to be on the fact that this is Standard 
> Arabic and not just any old flavor of Arabic.
> 
> Is that even close to right?

I call it 100% right.

I'd also say that "ar" isn't like "zh" (though some people have said it
is), for the simple reason that the parallelism is broken.  Most written
*and* spoken Chinese is Mandarin (probably 70% of Chinese-speakers know
no other Sinitic language), but although almost all written Arabic is
Standard Arabic, the same cannot be said of spoken Arabic, which presents
a much more complex situation.

-- 
John Cowan   http://ccil.org/~cowan    cowan@ccil.org
In might the Feanorians / that swore the unforgotten oath
brought war into Arvernien / with burning and with broken troth.
and Elwing from her fastness dim / then cast her in the waters wide,
but like a mew was swiftly borne, / uplifted o'er the roaring tide.
        --the Earendillinwe
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To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: ltru-bounces@ietf.org, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd:  I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit:

> Written Form
> 
> zh = written Chinese (most likely Mandarin)
> zh-yue = written Cantonese
> zh-cmn = definitely written Mandarin

[snip]

> Spoken Forms
> 
> cmn = spoken Mandarin
> yue = spoken Cantonese
> cmn-TW = spoken Taiwanese Mandarin

This introduces an artificial distinction between zh-yue and yue, and likewise between
zh-cmn and cmn, that has no real reason to exist.  zh-yue and zh-cmn are RFC 4646
forms; in RFC 4646bis they will be replaced with yue and cmn respectively.
What's more, zh is a suitable tag for spoken Chinese if you do not know
(etc.) what kind of spoken Chinese you have.

-- 
We are lost, lost.  No name, no business, no Precious, nothing.  Only empty.
Only hungry: yes, we are hungry.  A few little fishes, nassty bony little
fishes, for a poor creature, and they say death.  So wise they are; so just,
so very just.  --Gollum        cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May  6 22:32:43 2008
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Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 01:30:43 -0400
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> [Our best course of action for compatibility and interoperability would be
> to deprecate cmn, arb, and the few others in that section, but I doubt that
> we could get consensus on that, so I'd never brought it up.]

Indeed not.  If "zh" is to mean "Mandarin and nothing but" (and other languages are to be
considered loose or erroneous, like the use of "de" for Swiss German), then "zh" has
been narrowed, which is unacceptable.

-- 
Possession is said to be nine points of the law,                John Cowan
but that's not saying how many points the law might have.       cowan@ccil.org
        --Thomas A. Cowan (law professor and my father)
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> -----ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote: -----
>
> To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
> From: pektiong <pektiong@gmail.com>
> Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> Date: 05/06/2008 07:30PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Hi there,
>
>   First, I would like to state that even in written form using Hant/s/
> i, the written Minnan/Hakka/Mandarin CAN BE mutually intelligible.
Sorry, should be CAN BE "NOT mutually intelligible"

Cheers
Pochung
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
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rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; =
margin-right: 0px;">To: LTRU Working Group &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a>><br>From: pektiong =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pektiong@gmail.com">pektiong@gmail.com</a>><br>Sent =
by: <a =
href=3D"mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a><br>Date: =
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chinese in 3066bis<br><br><font face=3D"monospace" size=3D"3">Hi =
there,<br><br> &nbsp; First, I would like to state that even in written =
form using Hant/s/ <br>i, the written Minnan/Hakka/Mandarin CAN BE =
mutually =
intelligible.<br></font></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div>Sorry,=
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intelligible"&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Pochung</div></bod=
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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From: pektiong <pektiong@gmail.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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According to a survey by PRC government around 2004. Around 53% of  
population in China can speak Mandarin.
But I would also like to comment that the TOTAL SPEAKER of any non- 
Mandarin Chinese is also a LARGE number
compared to other languages in the world.

Ref: http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2004-12-26/17204633373s.shtml

Also, the two dialects within nan (or hak or yue or wuu) COULD be  
mutually UN-intelligible. What if one day NAN itself becomes
a macrolanguage tag?

Cheers
pektiong

On May 7, 2008, at 1:23 PM, John Cowan wrote:

> Doug Ewell scripsit:
>
>> So if all you know about a document is that it's in some flavor of
>> Arabic, you tag it "ar".  If you know that it's in Ta'izzi-Adeni  
>> Arabic,
>> and wish to specify that, then you tag it "acq".  And if you know  
>> that
>> it's in Standard Arabic, then you tag it either:
>>
>> - "ar" if you want the emphasis to be on accessibility to everyone  
>> who
>> requests "ar", or
>>
>> - "arb" if you want the emphasis to be on the fact that this is  
>> Standard
>> Arabic and not just any old flavor of Arabic.
>>
>> Is that even close to right?
>
> I call it 100% right.
>
> I'd also say that "ar" isn't like "zh" (though some people have said  
> it
> is), for the simple reason that the parallelism is broken.  Most  
> written
> *and* spoken Chinese is Mandarin (probably 70% of Chinese-speakers  
> know
> no other Sinitic language), but although almost all written Arabic is
> Standard Arabic, the same cannot be said of spoken Arabic, which  
> presents
> a much more complex situation.
>
> -- 
> John Cowan   http://ccil.org/~cowan    cowan@ccil.org
> In might the Feanorians / that swore the unforgotten oath
> brought war into Arvernien / with burning and with broken troth.
> and Elwing from her fastness dim / then cast her in the waters wide,
> but like a mew was swiftly borne, / uplifted o'er the roaring tide.
>        --the Earendillinwe
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:59:19 -0700
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I agree with most of your concerns, particularly about "dominant language,"=
 but come to the opposite conclusion :)

If we cannot agree amongst ourselves which tags to best choose and how fall=
back might be used, then application developers will do no better an implim=
ent a variety of mechanisms.  That will only serve to muddle the meaning of=
 any tags, particularly when interoperability between vendors or data sourc=
es is required.

Although a "neat set of rules" would be nice, I can't imagine that would be=
 possible, even without the legacy behavior there are too many interesting =
variations of "language".  I would however like to aim for a meaningful set=
 of rules that are clear enough that people may be able to consistently app=
ly them.

- Shawn

________________________________________
From: Doug Ewell [doug@ewellic.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:44 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Cc: Shawn Steele
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

Shawn Steele <Shawn dot Steele at microsoft dot com> wrote:

> In general, the most specific subtag to form the language tag MUST be
> used. However, in cases where a macrolanguage has been widely used to
> denote a dominant language within the macrolanguage group, the
> registry includes the macrolanguage within the first comment field
> within the registry to facilitate fallback matching.

As I've said before, but evidently not loudly enough, I am STRONGLY
OPPOSED to using the Comments field for anything normative, or anything
that software would use to enable or facilitate tag selection or
matching.  I'm not sure I can express how bad an idea I think this is.

Comments fields are supposed to be for free-form, human-readable
"additional information about the record."  They are completely
optional, and can be added, changed, and deleted at any time.  Order
doesn't matter; there is no "Comment Field 1" as far as software is
concerned.  As both RFC 4646 and the current draft point out, "no
guarantee of stability is provided."  Comments are just comments.

If we need another field with normative information -- and I'm not
convinced we do, but if -- then for heaven's sake, let's create a new
one.  I don't want to prolong this work any longer than we have to,
believe me, but if the alternative is to overload the Comments field for
algorithmic subtag matching, then we have more work to do.

> I think that all three cases should be discoverable from the registry.

As a software developer, I understand Shawn's desire to find a neat set
of rules that encapsulate this whole, crazy matching circus involving
macrolanguages and encompassed languages, and put those rules in the
Registry where software can deterministically find them.

Unfortunately, we can't even agree among ourselves what the rules should
be.  Should a request for "cmn" return content tagged "zh" that might be
Cantonese?  Is it OK for a request for "zh-HK" to be truncated back to
"zh" (Mark's RFR fallback scenario) and then matched to "cmn"?  Are the
rules the same for written vs. non-written?  And none of the other
macrolanguage scenarios is quite like Chinese, or Arabic or Zhuang;
they're all different.

Additionally, the concept of "a dominant language within the group" may
be well-defined for Chinese and Arabic, but there are 55 other
macrolanguages currently defined.  We would essentially be getting
ourselves into the same controversy that now swirls around
Suppress-Script, where between this group and ietf-languages, there are
widely divergent opinions about how liberally Suppress-Script should be
used, and some who still don't seem to understand it at all.  By
pronouncing one language "dominant," which even Ethnologue doesn't
always do, we would open ourselves up to more charges of bias, not only
outside the group but inside as well.

Finally, the status of any given language as a macrolanguage (and
consequently the Macrolanguage field within draft-4646bis) is subject to
change at any time by ISO 639-3/MA.  Already there have been changes to
the existing macrolanguage membership; we won't see these changes in the
Registry because they predate our publication date, but others are sure
to follow.  The draft says the Macrolanguage field "MAY" be changed to
mirror ISO 639-3 changes, but I can't think of any scenario where this
would not be the case.  So this information is, well, informative.  Any
mechanism that treats it as stable or normative is fatally flawed.

IMHO we should limit ourselves to solving problems that we know how to
solve.  Frankly, I think we have done the best that we can do by adding
the Macrolanguage field, for whatever good it provides, and the
explanatory text Addison and Mark (and others) have already written into
draft-4646bis.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  =88
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:04:03 -0700
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That's kind of my point.  Someone oversimplified my concerns as just matching some web pages, however Microsoft's trying to solve a broader set of scenarios.  It is fairly clear to us that we can't just ask users to pick "zh" for their system locale and expect that to suffice.  In an increasing number of cases we need additional information, such as cmn or yue.

I suspect that given how broadly our features and apis are used that I need to support the same set of scenarios that Karen needs, in addition to those of librarian, in addition to the obvious scenarios of web surfing and OS resource lookup.

- Shawn

________________________________________
From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 6:55 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: Phillips, Addison; LTRU Working Group; Peter Constable
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

What language does my screen reader speak if the page is coded "zh"?   Is
"zh" sufficient for this purpose? We can't predict all the ways a language
tag might be interpreted by an application -- even in text contexts -- so
I think the muddiness of the "zh" tag is a problem. It does not
sufficiently identify the language.

K.


ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/06/2008 12:08:25 PM:

> > Most systems and system locales will boot up in "Chinese".
>
> Perhaps you've oversimplified the problem.  Our customers will want
> voice interaction to be in the spoken language, Chinese is no longer
> sufficient for the system.  Even on a web site, audio clips may be
> available so Chinese doesn't necessarily provide enough granularity.
>
> - Shawn
> _______________________________________________
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From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 7:00 PM

> Not so sure that we will get accuracy; frankly I think the
> introduction of cmn, arb, etc. were well intentioned, but in
> retrospect a mistake. There was no reason not to treat zh, ar,
> etc just like we treated de. There is no substantive difference
> between zh:yue and de:gsw.

Well, speaking in relation to ISO 639-3, at least, if something were to have been done differently, it would have been to treat de as a macro-language, not to treat zh and ar as limited to the major varieties. (The initial approach Gary Simons and I took *was* to map existing ISO 639-2 entries to major varieties, but that change when I noted existing usage in the IANA registry or in MARC that really made that impossible.



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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Arne Goetje


> Also for at least Minnan, Hakka and Zhuang the vocabulary and therefor
> the written form differs from Mandarin.

Um... Zhuang is a Tai-Kadai language, not a Sinitic language -- so not at all related to Mandarin.



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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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pektiong scripsit:

> According to a survey by PRC government around 2004. Around 53% of  
> population in China can speak Mandarin.

That figure sounds quite low.

> But I would also like to comment that the TOTAL SPEAKER of any non- 
> Mandarin Chinese is also a LARGE number
> compared to other languages in the world.

Indeed, and the same is true of the other Sinitic languages.  Cantonese
is probably the most widely spoken language in the world that is not
official anywhere.

> Also, the two dialects within nan (or hak or yue or wuu) COULD be  
> mutually UN-intelligible. What if one day NAN itself becomes
> a macrolanguage tag?

It may someday, as might cmn or even en.

-- 
Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
in any language.  --Allen Brown                 cowan@ccil.org
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Subject: [Ltru] default for q-values in Accept-Language and elsewhere
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Dear HTTP WG,

This was brought up in the LTRU WG by Mark Davis:

>Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values. Take the >following example:
>
>a, b;q=0.7, c, d;q=0.5, e, f;q=0.9, g
>
>The specs do not distinguish between at least two different possible >reasonable interpretations of what the q values of c, e, and g are: 
    * >   c;q=1.0, e;q=1.0, g;q=1 // always 1 
    * >   c;q=0.7, e;q=0.5, g;q=0.9 // always same as previous 
> Our guess is that the user meant #2, but it is only a guess.

I read RFC 2616, and indeed didn't find any specification of
the defaults for q values in the case of Accept-Language.

Looking at other subsections of Section 14, there is an explicit
default of q=1 for Accept and Accept-Charset, but I also didn't
find a default for Accept-Encoding.

Please add this issue to your issue list unless you already
have it listed.

Regards,   Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 00:54:26 2008
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At 05:29 08/05/05, Mark Davis wrote:
>Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values.

Yes indeed. I have reported this to the HTTP WG.


>Take the following example:
>
>a, b;q=0.7, c, d;q=0.5, e, f;q=0.9, g
>
>The specs do not distinguish between at least two different possible reasonable interpretations of what the q values of c, e, and g are: 
>    * c;q=1.0, e;q=1.0, g;q=1 // always 1 
>    * c;q=0.7, e;q=0.5, g;q=0.9 // always same as previous 
>Our guess is that the user meant #2, but it is only a guess.

My guess would be to use 1.0 as a default, because this is
consistent with other headers, and allows concatenation and
splitting of headers without going through hoops. Please
remember that the above is protocol syntax, not what the
user should see or would edit.

>And even once that ambiguity is cleared up, nobody knows what the meaning of the numbers really is. My native tongue is English, I can understand Swiss German and German, my French is rusty, and Italian basic. Which of these should I use? 
>    * en, gsw, de, fr, it 
>    * en, gsw;q=0.9, de;q=0.9, fr;q=0.8, it;q=0.7 
>    * en, gsw;q=0.5, de;q=0.4, fr;q=0.3, it;q=0.2 
>    * en, gsw;q=0.99, de;q=0.95, fr;q=0.03, it;q=0.02 
>All are descending order, but depending on what algorithm the consumer of the tags uses, they could have very different results. Without being able to have any consistent expectations for what the q numbers mean, producers of tags don't know what settings to provide or what difference it will make, and consumers of tags don't know what the producers meant.

There is a certain aspect of tuning, which indeed currently doesn't work
because there isn't enough actual use on the server side. But basically,
the idea is simple: the values get multiplied with the corresponding
quality values for the documents on the server side.

So the way you should think is that you set gsw to 0.5 if you would
be satisfied to get the English document if the server thinks that the
English document it has is more than half as good than the corresponding
gsw document, but you would prefer to get the gsw document if the server
thinks that the corresponding English document is less than half as
good in quality than the corresponding gsw document.

Of course, "half as good in quality" is then the difficult piece of
information, but ideas for measuring this might be the time it takes
to read for a native reader, the amount of "updateness" (i.e. 70%
of the document are up-to-date -> document quality 0.7), or similar
measures. You can go into very fine details (and they way I know you,
you probably will), but while my considerations above won't help
you figure out the *exact* values for your q-values, they should
be enough to help you decide among the above listed four variants.

My personal guess is that
   en, gsw;q=0.5, de;q=0.4, fr;q=0.3, it;q=0.2
maybe most reasonable, but it's up to you to decide.

Regards,   Martin.



#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 00:55:12 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
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Hi Doug

I am not sure that I agree here.  A few days ago you said you were
submitting with the comment.  I don't remember seeing anyone against it.

best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: 07 May 2008 07:38
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Questions before submitting draft-4645bis-05
>
> Based on a small sample of input, the group's preference
> seems to be NOT to add the comment to 'kha' cross-referencing
> it to 'lyg', and NOT to change the deprecated status of 'FX'.
>  I'll submit the draft accordingly.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>




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On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 02:22:44PM -0600,
 Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote 
 a message of 51 lines which said:

> It could be that this is just one of those situations where there is
> no "right" answer, and we need to just pick one.

I'm strongly in that camp (or should I say "no-camp"?) The discussion
on extlangs a few months ago was very useful because it allowed to
discover and to list all the good reasons why both solutions had
serious limits. 

That's life (it's not our fault, the world is messy), and, if we want
4646bis to be out one day, we should pick one solution, stick with it
and document its limitations (I suggest a big warning "For being
useful to users, fallback cannot be a dumb right-truncation", examples
as you wish, cmn/zh, sv-FI/fi, br/fr, de-CH/gsw...)

That's why I would not support changing again: extlangs are dead, go
without them. "cmn" is the right tag for Mandarin, but developers and
users should be aware that "zh" was, is and will be used a
lot. That's life.
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
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On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 08:44:07PM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote 
 a message of 89 lines which said:

>    de-*hde -> German, specifically Hochdeutsch
...
> Why can we not take this route.  

There are several reasons but one of them is that the original extlang
plan was to use ISO 639-3 macrolanguages (without cherry-picking them)
and "de" is not a macrolanguage... (may be it should but it isn't)
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Stephane wrote:

> > Why can we not take this route.
>
> There are several reasons but one of them is that the
> original extlang plan was to use ISO 639-3 macrolanguages
> (without cherry-picking them) and "de" is not a
> macrolanguage... (may be it should but it isn't)
>

But nothing is set in stone wrt extlang :-)  or is it?

I missed the whole extlang debate so I don't really know all the reasons why
it was dismissed.  However, from what I can see we need to facilitate
fallback matching for *some* subtags that have ISO 639-3 codes but have
also, historically, predominantly used another subtag.  Maybe we should
concentrate on this aspect rather than extlang and macrolanguages
specifically.  You might find that by doing so we solve all the problems.
But it needs to be done with an open mind and I don't see the need to be
restrictive to facilitating fallback *just* for macrolanguages.  We could
include a "Fallback" field and devise a registration procedure to
incorporate information with regard to "known fallback relationships" that
would encompass a good deal of this.  I see it working along similar lines
as suppress script (as and when info becomes available). As I say, I  missed
pretty much the whole debate on this so maybe this has already been covered.

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]
> Sent: 07 May 2008 09:26
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 08:44:07PM +0100,  Debbie Garside
> <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote  a message of 89 lines which said:
>
> >    de-*hde -> German, specifically Hochdeutsch
> ...
> > Why can we not take this route.
>
> There are several reasons but one of them is that the
> original extlang plan was to use ISO 639-3 macrolanguages
> (without cherry-picking them) and "de" is not a
> macrolanguage... (may be it should but it isn't)
>
>
>
>




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] default for q-values in Accept-Language and elsewhere
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Adrien de Croy wrote:
>> Looking at other subsections of Section 14, there is an explicit
>> default of q=1 for Accept and Accept-Charset, but I also didn't
>> find a default for Accept-Encoding.
>>
>> Please add this issue to your issue list unless you already
>> have it listed.
>>   
> 
> also the whole concept of q values only makes any sense if the default 
> value is 1.
> ...

I'd recommend that we state the default just once in the section that 
introduces qvalues 
(<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-ietf-httpbis-p3-payload-latest.html#rfc.section.3.4>) 
and remove the description everywhere else.

BR, Julian
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Debbie Garside scripsit:

> But nothing is set in stone wrt extlang :-)  or is it?

The decisions about which languages are macrolanguages and which languages
are encompassed by them are made by 639-3/RA, and are in stone as far
as we are concerned.  De is not a macrolanguage and that's that.

The only thing we can change is our syntax, and that is set in concrete,
which is drying fast.

> I missed the whole extlang debate so I don't really know all the reasons why
> it was dismissed.  However, from what I can see we need to facilitate
> fallback matching for *some* subtags that have ISO 639-3 codes but have
> also, historically, predominantly used another subtag.  Maybe we should
> concentrate on this aspect rather than extlang and macrolanguages
> specifically.  You might find that by doing so we solve all the problems.
> But it needs to be done with an open mind and I don't see the need to be
> restrictive to facilitating fallback *just* for macrolanguages.  We could
> include a "Fallback" field and devise a registration procedure to
> incorporate information with regard to "known fallback relationships" that
> would encompass a good deal of this.  I see it working along similar lines
> as suppress script (as and when info becomes available). As I say, I  missed
> pretty much the whole debate on this so maybe this has already been covered.

It's too big a job, and "known fallback relationships" depend on too many things,
not just language relatedness.

-- 
The Imperials are decadent, 300 pound   John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
free-range chickens (except they have   http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
teeth, arms instead of wings, and
dinosaurlike tails).                        --Elyse Grasso
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From: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer' <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
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On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 10:25:11AM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote 
 a message of 55 lines which said:

> I missed the whole extlang debate so I don't really know all the
> reasons why it was dismissed.

[My personal summary]

* stability issues (what if a "standalone" language becomes
encompassed or the opposite?).

* "dummy" right truncation, as allowed by extlangs, is not a good idea
for macrolanguages, anyway (two encompassed languages of the same
macrolanguage may not be mutually intelligible).

* politically, it may send the message that the encompassed language
is inferior in some way.

As Randy said here, you can also make a similar list of the good
reasons to keep extlangs. The case is really a 50-50 but we have to
decide on one solution.

> But it needs to be done with an open mind and I don't see the need
> to be restrictive to facilitating fallback *just* for
> macrolanguages.

The idea was not to facilitate fallback (a complicated thing, which
depend a lot of non-linguistical data), just to use an information
that ISO 639-3 gives us (macrolanguages).

In the current 4646bis model, "smart" fallback is not handled (because
it requires a lot of outside information).

> We could include a "Fallback" field and devise a registration
> procedure to incorporate information with regard to "known fallback
> relationships" that would encompass a good deal of this.

This is a huge work, compared to with Suppress-Script discussions is
peanuts :-)

To mention again typical examples (my examples, criticisms welcome):

"fr" (french) is a good fallback for "br" (breton), not because the
two languages are related (they are quite distinct) but because
Brittany is in France and, since the 19th century, there are no longer
breton speakers that do not speak french.

"fi" (finnish) is probably a good fallback for "xx-FI" because finnish
is the most common language in Finland so someone who requests "sv-FI"
can probably read finnish. But "fi" is not a good fallback for "sv"
alone.

In writing, "arb" is a good fallback for every encompassed language of
the macrolanguage "ar" (arabic). But it is not true in spoken form.

These examples give an idea of the amount of information required.


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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Trying again without the attachment.

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Constable
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:28 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Doug Ewell


> Additionally, the concept of "a dominant language within the group"
> may be well-defined for Chinese and Arabic, but there are 55 other
> macrolanguages currently defined.  We would essentially be getting
> ourselves into the same controversy... [b]y pronouncing one language
> "dominant," ...

I will remind people that last November I sent an attachment with my analysis of the macro-language entries in ISO 639-3, attached again here for convenience, in which I take a stab at categorizing according to degree of usage in ICTs and whether there is a single, dominant language. Here is group #2:

2. Macrolanguage ID used in ICT, and there is a single, dominant variety
ara     (E15: arb dominant) = ar
        arb = Standard Arabic
        - aao abh abv acm acq acw acx acy adf aeb aec afb ajp apc
        apd arq ars ary arz auz avl ayh ayl ayn ayp bbz pga shu ssh

kok     (E14: knn dominant)
        knn
        - gom

msa     (E15: mly dominant) = ms
        mly
        - btj bve bvu coa jax max meo mfa mqg msi vkt xmm

swa     (E15: swh dominant) = sw (CLDR)
        swh
        - swc

uzb     (E15: uzn dominant) = uz
        uzn

        - uzs
zho     (E14: collection) = zh
        cmn
        - cdo cjy cpx czh czo gan hak hsn mnp nan wuu yue




> Finally, the status of any given language as a macrolanguage (and
> consequently the Macrolanguage field within draft-4646bis) is subject
> to change at any time by ISO 639-3/MA.

Not exactly: ISO 639-3/MA can't narrow the scope of a macro-language category.



Peter
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> John Cowan


> > We could
> > include a "Fallback" field and devise a registration procedure to
> > incorporate information with regard to "known fallback relationships"
> that
> > would encompass a good deal of this...

> It's too big a job, and "known fallback relationships" depend on too
> many things,
> not just language relatedness.

+1


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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> 'Stephane Bortzmeyer'


> > I missed the whole extlang debate so I don't really know all the
> > reasons why it was dismissed.
>
> [My personal summary]
>
> * stability issues (what if a "standalone" language becomes
> encompassed or the opposite?).

Wasn't an issue if we used extlang only for pre-existing cases, not new cas=
es.


> * "dummy" right truncation, as allowed by extlangs, is not a good idea
> for macrolanguages, anyway (two encompassed languages of the same
> macrolanguage may not be mutually intelligible).

An issue only for the cases in which the macro-language ID has been used fo=
r some dominant, encompassed language: content would be tagged with (and he=
nce matchable against) the macro-language ID only if there were some conven=
tional form of linguistic expression it was associated with. That would hap=
pen only if it were associated with a dominant encompassed language, or if =
there were some variety of common communication (=E0 la Chinese or African =
cases Don has alluded to). But in both those scenarios, the fallback probab=
ly *would* provide intelligible results for both.


> * politically, it may send the message that the encompassed language
> is inferior in some way.

It seems to me that would only arise if the macro-language ID is particular=
ly associated with one dominant variety -- and that's true whether extlang =
is used or not. Thus, if we ended up using zh for Mandarin and either yue o=
r zh-yue for Cantonese, that attitude might be conveyed.


I think there were a few other reasons cited:

* matching processes need to be made more complex / right-truncation doesn'=
t work as expected in some scenarios -- an issue for tags with extlang and =
script or region subtags

The counter-argument made was that matching processes need to be made more =
complex without extlang in order to capture useful fallback associations be=
tween encompassed and macro-language IDs.

The rebuttal to that was that the whole point of extlang was to facilitate =
right-truncation matching involving existing usage of macro-language IDs, y=
et extlang breaks some desired right-truncation behaviours.

I'd note that limiting extlang to certain, pre-existing cases such as zh wo=
uld cover the bulk of cases of concern, though as we know zh is a case for =
which script or region subtags may have particular significance.


* Not all macro-languages in ISO 639-3 are useful for matching and fallback.

Not an issue if not all macro-language IDs are used with extlangs.

* Fallback requirements are more involved than what extlang can support.

True; but extlang wasn't proposed as a general fallback solution, and the i=
ssues exist with or without extlang.


> As Randy said here, you can also make a similar list of the good
> reasons to keep extlangs. The case is really a 50-50 but we have to
> decide on one solution.

That's mostly what it amounted to: a compelling case couldn't be made eithe=
r way, and those arguing for extlang gave up sooner than those arguing agai=
nst extlang.



Peter
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 08:24:31 -0700
Thread-Topic: Issue in 2.2.7 Private Use Subtags
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The current text has:

   For example: The Unicode Consortium defines a set of private use
   extensions in LDML ([UTS35], Locale Data Markup Language, the Unicode
   standard for defining locale data) such as in the tag "es-419-x-ldml-
   collation-traditio", which indicates Latin American Spanish with
   traditional order for sorted lists.

The example tag isn't well-formed wrt our syntax, specifically


   privateuse    =3D "x" 1*("-" (1*8alphanum))



Peter

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xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:=
//www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
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<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
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<p class=3DMsoNormal>The current text has:<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;
For example: The Unicode Consortium defines a set of private use<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;
extensions in LDML ([UTS35], Locale Data Markup Language, the Unicode<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;
standard for defining locale data) such as in the tag &quot;es-419-x-ldml-<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;
collation-traditio&quot;, which indicates Latin American Spanish with<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;
traditional order for sorted lists.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>The example tag isn&#8217;t well-formed wrt our syntax=
,
specifically<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; privateuse&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D &quot;x&quot; 1*(&quot;-=
&quot; (1*8alphanum))<o:p></o:p></pre>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Peter<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

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Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 08:23:23 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Martin Duerst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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I sent in a mail, and the responses I got back was that 1 is always the
default, and that as far as the spec is concerned, the only reliable
information is the relative magnitude of the values. Neither the client nor
server can depend on anything else in the absence of negotiation. That is,
for all the server can depend on,

"en, fr;q=0.99999, de;q=0.99998"
    is the same as
"en, fr;q=0.00002, de;q=0.00001".

Mark

On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 12:31 AM, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
wrote:

> At 05:29 08/05/05, Mark Davis wrote:
> >Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values.
>
> Yes indeed. I have reported this to the HTTP WG.
>
>
> >Take the following example:
> >
> >a, b;q=0.7, c, d;q=0.5, e, f;q=0.9, g
> >
> >The specs do not distinguish between at least two different possible
> reasonable interpretations of what the q values of c, e, and g are:
> >    * c;q=1.0, e;q=1.0, g;q=1 // always 1
> >    * c;q=0.7, e;q=0.5, g;q=0.9 // always same as previous
> >Our guess is that the user meant #2, but it is only a guess.
>
> My guess would be to use 1.0 as a default, because this is
> consistent with other headers, and allows concatenation and
> splitting of headers without going through hoops. Please
> remember that the above is protocol syntax, not what the
> user should see or would edit.
>
> >And even once that ambiguity is cleared up, nobody knows what the meaning
> of the numbers really is. My native tongue is English, I can understand
> Swiss German and German, my French is rusty, and Italian basic. Which of
> these should I use?
> >    * en, gsw, de, fr, it
> >    * en, gsw;q=0.9, de;q=0.9, fr;q=0.8, it;q=0.7
> >    * en, gsw;q=0.5, de;q=0.4, fr;q=0.3, it;q=0.2
> >    * en, gsw;q=0.99, de;q=0.95, fr;q=0.03, it;q=0.02
> >All are descending order, but depending on what algorithm the consumer of
> the tags uses, they could have very different results. Without being able to
> have any consistent expectations for what the q numbers mean, producers of
> tags don't know what settings to provide or what difference it will make,
> and consumers of tags don't know what the producers meant.
>
> There is a certain aspect of tuning, which indeed currently doesn't work
> because there isn't enough actual use on the server side. But basically,
> the idea is simple: the values get multiplied with the corresponding
> quality values for the documents on the server side.
>
> So the way you should think is that you set gsw to 0.5 if you would
> be satisfied to get the English document if the server thinks that the
> English document it has is more than half as good than the corresponding
> gsw document, but you would prefer to get the gsw document if the server
> thinks that the corresponding English document is less than half as
> good in quality than the corresponding gsw document.
>
> Of course, "half as good in quality" is then the difficult piece of
> information, but ideas for measuring this might be the time it takes
> to read for a native reader, the amount of "updateness" (i.e. 70%
> of the document are up-to-date -> document quality 0.7), or similar
> measures. You can go into very fine details (and they way I know you,
> you probably will), but while my considerations above won't help
> you figure out the *exact* values for your q-values, they should
> be enough to help you decide among the above listed four variants.
>
> My personal guess is that
>    en, gsw;q=0.5, de;q=0.4, fr;q=0.3, it;q=0.2
> maybe most reasonable, but it's up to you to decide.
>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
>
>
> #-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
>
>


-- 
Mark

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I sent in a mail, and the responses I got back was that 1 is always the default, and that as far as the spec is concerned, the only reliable information is the relative magnitude of the values. Neither the client nor server can depend on anything else in the absence of negotiation. That is, for all the server can depend on,<br>
<br>&quot;en, fr;q=0.99999, de;q=0.99998&quot;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is the same as <br>&quot;en, fr;q=0.00002, de;q=0.00001&quot;.<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 12:31 AM, Martin Duerst &lt;<a href="mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="Ih2E3d">At 05:29 08/05/05, Mark Davis wrote:<br>
&gt;Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values.<br>
<br>
</div>Yes indeed. I have reported this to the HTTP WG.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
&gt;Take the following example:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;a, b;q=0.7, c, d;q=0.5, e, f;q=0.9, g<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;The specs do not distinguish between at least two different possible reasonable interpretations of what the q values of c, e, and g are:<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;* c;q=1.0, e;q=1.0, g;q=1 // always 1<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;* c;q=0.7, e;q=0.5, g;q=0.9 // always same as previous<br>
&gt;Our guess is that the user meant #2, but it is only a guess.<br>
<br>
</div>My guess would be to use 1.0 as a default, because this is<br>
consistent with other headers, and allows concatenation and<br>
splitting of headers without going through hoops. Please<br>
remember that the above is protocol syntax, not what the<br>
user should see or would edit.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt;And even once that ambiguity is cleared up, nobody knows what the meaning of the numbers really is. My native tongue is English, I can understand Swiss German and German, my French is rusty, and Italian basic. Which of these should I use?<br>

&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;* en, gsw, de, fr, it<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;* en, gsw;q=0.9, de;q=0.9, fr;q=0.8, it;q=0.7<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;* en, gsw;q=0.5, de;q=0.4, fr;q=0.3, it;q=0.2<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;* en, gsw;q=0.99, de;q=0.95, fr;q=0.03, it;q=0.02<br>
&gt;All are descending order, but depending on what algorithm the consumer of the tags uses, they could have very different results. Without being able to have any consistent expectations for what the q numbers mean, producers of tags don&#39;t know what settings to provide or what difference it will make, and consumers of tags don&#39;t know what the producers meant.<br>

<br>
</div>There is a certain aspect of tuning, which indeed currently doesn&#39;t work<br>
because there isn&#39;t enough actual use on the server side. But basically,<br>
the idea is simple: the values get multiplied with the corresponding<br>
quality values for the documents on the server side.<br>
<br>
So the way you should think is that you set gsw to 0.5 if you would<br>
be satisfied to get the English document if the server thinks that the<br>
English document it has is more than half as good than the corresponding<br>
gsw document, but you would prefer to get the gsw document if the server<br>
thinks that the corresponding English document is less than half as<br>
good in quality than the corresponding gsw document.<br>
<br>
Of course, &quot;half as good in quality&quot; is then the difficult piece of<br>
information, but ideas for measuring this might be the time it takes<br>
to read for a native reader, the amount of &quot;updateness&quot; (i.e. 70%<br>
of the document are up-to-date -&gt; document quality 0.7), or similar<br>
measures. You can go into very fine details (and they way I know you,<br>
you probably will), but while my considerations above won&#39;t help<br>
you figure out the *exact* values for your q-values, they should<br>
be enough to help you decide among the above listed four variants.<br>
<br>
My personal guess is that<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"> &nbsp; en, gsw;q=0.5, de;q=0.4, fr;q=0.3, it;q=0.2<br>
</div>maybe most reasonable, but it&#39;s up to you to decide.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
Regards, &nbsp; Martin.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
#-#-# &nbsp;Martin J. Du&quot;rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University<br>
</div>#-#-# &nbsp;<a href="http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp" target="_blank">http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp</a> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mailto:<a href="mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>, "'LTRU Working Group'"
	<ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 08:33:06 -0700
Thread-Topic: Issue in 2.2.7 Private Use Subtags
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue in 2.2.7 Private Use Subtags
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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Good catch; there's a typo - it should be collatio=traditio (all terms are
just truncated to 8 letters). (looks "Romantic" that way ;-)

Mark

On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>  The current text has:
>
>
>
>    For example: The Unicode Consortium defines a set of private use
>
>    extensions in LDML ([UTS35], Locale Data Markup Language, the Unicode
>
>    standard for defining locale data) such as in the tag "es-419-x-ldml-
>
>    collation-traditio", which indicates Latin American Spanish with
>
>    traditional order for sorted lists.
>
>
>
> The example tag isn't well-formed wrt our syntax, specifically
>
>
>
>    privateuse    = "x" 1*("-" (1*8alphanum))
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>


-- 
Mark

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Good catch; there&#39;s a typo - it should be collatio=traditio (all terms are just truncated to 8 letters). (looks &quot;Romantic&quot; that way ;-)<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Peter Constable &lt;<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">








<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p>The current text has:</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
For example: The Unicode Consortium defines a set of private use</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
extensions in LDML ([UTS35], Locale Data Markup Language, the Unicode</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
standard for defining locale data) such as in the tag &quot;es-419-x-ldml-</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
collation-traditio&quot;, which indicates Latin American Spanish with</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
traditional order for sorted lists.</span></p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>The example tag isn't well-formed wrt our syntax,
specifically</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; privateuse&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = &quot;x&quot; 1*(&quot;-&quot; (1*8alphanum))</pre>

<p>&nbsp;</p><font color="#888888">

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>Peter</p>

</font></div>

</div>


<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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I meant ...collatio-traditio...

On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
wrote:

> Good catch; there's a typo - it should be collatio=traditio (all terms are
> just truncated to 8 letters). (looks "Romantic" that way ;-)
>
> Mark
>
> On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> >  The current text has:
> >
> >
> >
> >    For example: The Unicode Consortium defines a set of private use
> >
> >    extensions in LDML ([UTS35], Locale Data Markup Language, the Unicode
> >
> >    standard for defining locale data) such as in the tag "es-419-x-ldml-
> >
> >    collation-traditio", which indicates Latin American Spanish with
> >
> >    traditional order for sorted lists.
> >
> >
> >
> > The example tag isn't well-formed wrt our syntax, specifically
> >
> >
> >
> >    privateuse    = "x" 1*("-" (1*8alphanum))
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Mark




-- 
Mark

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I meant ...collatio-traditio...<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Mark Davis &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Good catch; there&#39;s a typo - it should be collatio=traditio (all terms are just truncated to 8 letters). (looks &quot;Romantic&quot; that way ;-)<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Peter Constable &lt;<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com" target="_blank">petercon@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">








<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p>The current text has:</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
For example: The Unicode Consortium defines a set of private use</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
extensions in LDML ([UTS35], Locale Data Markup Language, the Unicode</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
standard for defining locale data) such as in the tag &quot;es-419-x-ldml-</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
collation-traditio&quot;, which indicates Latin American Spanish with</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
traditional order for sorted lists.</span></p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>The example tag isn&#39;t well-formed wrt our syntax,
specifically</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; privateuse&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = &quot;x&quot; 1*(&quot;-&quot; (1*8alphanum))</pre>

<p>&nbsp;</p><font color="#888888">

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>Peter</p>

</font></div>

</div>


<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><font color="#888888">Mark
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-07 04.50:
> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
>
> > The Norwegian case is ultimately about a fight for and a right to the 
> > name "Norwegian". It is both a linguistic fight, and a name fight.
> >
> > As for "Chinese", that is also about the right to be called "Chinese", 
> > you could say.
>
> I thought the goal was to *avoid* using language tagging to send 
> messages.
>   

That comment was meant to express that we should map the terrain instead 
of trying to make the terrain look like the map.

Don't you agree with that message?
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> That comment was meant to express that we should map the terrain instead 
> of trying to make the terrain look like the map.

Unfortunately, unlike a mapmaker we have to take into account the
existence of previous maps both formal and informal, because they have
strongly affected people's view of what the terrain actually is.

-- 
Kill Gorgun!  Kill orc-folk!            John Cowan
No other words please Wild Men.         cowan@ccil.org
Drive away bad air and darkness         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with bright iron!   --Ghan-buri-Ghan    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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> * politically, it may send the message that the encompassed language
> is inferior in some way.

Politically saying that Mandarin should be tagged Chinese (and therefore implying that Chinese is Mandarin), and then suggesting that Cantonese may want to fall back to Chinese is much worse than extlang ever was.

- Shawn
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Arne Goetje 2008-05-07 05.39:
> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote:
> > The reason "zh" is special is because in written form, it is mutually 
> > intelligible with the written forms used by other dialect speakers even if 
> > there can be subtle differences (Cantonese subtitles).
>   

> Therefor I would prefer to avoid the use of 'zh' altogether and only use
>  'cmn', 'nan', 'hak', etc.
>
> However, if a software requests the language 'zh' from the operating
> system, then it's up to the OS (and probably the user) to decide which
> language will be delivered back. The default setting could be that 'cmn'
> is delivered back, but the user could override this with 'nan' if he
> prefers...
>   

That was two good cents. Such a behaviour would be good for an OS 
localized for Norwegian as well.
-- 
leif halvard silli


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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John Cowan 2008-05-07 07.23:
> Doug Ewell scripsit:
>
> > So if all you know about a document is that it's in some flavor of 
> > Arabic, you tag it "ar".  If you know that it's in Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic, 
> > and wish to specify that, then you tag it "acq".

I assume that John will agree that it is also 100% right to use 'ar' 
even if you know that it is  Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic.

> > And if you know that it's in Standard Arabic, then you tag it either:
> > 
> > - "ar" if you want the emphasis to be on accessibility to everyone who 
> > requests "ar", or
> > 
> > - "arb" if you want the emphasis to be on the fact that this is Standard 
> > Arabic and not just any old flavor of Arabic.
> > 
> > Is that even close to right?
>
> I call it 100% right.
>   

If you don't include what I said about  using 'ar' for Ta'izzi-Adeni 
Arabic as well, then this means that when it comes to the "dominant 
encompassing language", then we recommend a less precise tagging.
-- 
leif halvard silli


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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>, Arne Goetje <arne@linux.org.tw>,
	"Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Fwd:  I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd:  I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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I missed this before, but it sounds to me like Karen would like a way to recognize the correlation between the written forms of Mandarin and Cantonese yet keep the spoken forms distinct?

So zh-cmn, zh-yue in a written context are interesting to Karen because they are mutually intelligible even though there some differences.  By themselves cmn and yue in a spoken context are also interesting to Karen because they cannot be exchanged at all.

Is that correct?  I'll have to think about that scenario.

- Shawn

________________________________________
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli [lhs@malform.no]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:00 AM
To: Arne Goetje
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd:  I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

Arne Goetje 2008-05-07 05.39:
> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote:
> > The reason "zh" is special is because in written form, it is mutually
> > intelligible with the written forms used by other dialect speakers even if
> > there can be subtle differences (Cantonese subtitles).
>

> Therefor I would prefer to avoid the use of 'zh' altogether and only use
>  'cmn', 'nan', 'hak', etc.
>
> However, if a software requests the language 'zh' from the operating
> system, then it's up to the OS (and probably the user) to decide which
> language will be delivered back. The default setting could be that 'cmn'
> is delivered back, but the user could override this with 'nan' if he
> prefers...
>

That was two good cents. Such a behaviour would be good for an OS
localized for Norwegian as well.
--
leif halvard silli


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Doug Ewell 2008-05-07 07.46:
> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
>
> >> Where the macrolanguage tag has been historically used to denote a
> >> dominant encompassed language, a duel language tag
> >
> > What does 'duel language tag' mean? Two language tags? Such as "cmn,
> > zh" pr 'zh-cmn'?
>
> The first is not within our ability to specify; it is up to each
> application that uses BCP 47 (HTTP being one of the better-cited
> examples) to decide whether to allow such compound tags.
>
> The second is ill-formed according to our own syntax, and it would be 
> utterly impossible to change our syntax so as to make it well-formed.
>
> Sorry to be Mr. Negative tonight.
>   

Oh, I just tried to understand what 'duel' meant.

But the spec could say something about not relying on the macrolanguage 
tag, not even for the dominant langauge. I don't understand why the spec 
says that on SHOULD use the macrolanguage tag in certain cases. I think 
one SHOULD - when possible (when both serving and interpreting 
application can deal with it) - specify *two* tags - the most spesific 
tag and the macrolangauge tag. And then, if not possible, one MAY use 
the macrolanguage tag instead.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 11:17:20 2008
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Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:17:12 -0400
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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	"Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> Yes, but I can't think of any examples off the top of my head and the book
> I've got that lists the differences is successfully playing hide-and-seek at
> the moment.  

Two that come to mind:

1) Cantonese normally places direct objects bofore indirect objects,
unlike Standard Mandarin.  This property is shared with Shanghainese
and with southern varieties of Mandarin.

2) Mandarin prefers verb-object compounds, Cantonese prefers to make
them object-verb.

-- 
If you have ever wondered if you are in hell,         John Cowan
it has been said, then you are on a well-traveled     http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
road of spiritual inquiry.  If you are absolutely     cowan@ccil.org
sure you are in hell, however, then you must be
on the Cross Bronx Expressway.          --Alan Feuer, NYTimes, 2002-09-20
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 13:10:53 2008
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To: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> >> So if all you know about a document is that it's in some flavor of 
> >> Arabic, you tag it "ar".  If you know that it's in Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic, 
> >> and wish to specify that, then you tag it "acq".
> 
> I assume that John will agree that it is also 100% right to use 'ar' 
> even if you know that it is  Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic.

Yes, hence the "and wish to specify that".

-- 
On the Semantic Web, it's too hard to prove     John Cowan    cowan@ccil.org
you're not a dog.  --Bill de hOra               http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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Subject: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
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With RFC4645bis, there are only a handful of cases (listed below) where one
cannot canonicalize on input and then not ever have to deal with irregular
tags. That would allow us to only have to deal with irregular codes on
input, and then never again have to handle them -- which would be a very
useful simplification.

I was thinking of proposing to the languages group that we make the
following registrations:

languages: gaulish, default, enochian, mingo, and zhmin
variant: oeddict

I wanted to run this by this group first, especially to see if there is
nothing on the horizon in 639 that we could use instead of any in the first
group (since that would of course be preferable), and if anyone else had any
thoughts on the matter.

%%
Type: grandfathered
Tag: cel-gaulish
Description: Gaulish
Added: 2001-05-25
%%

%%
Type: grandfathered
Tag: en-GB-oed
Description: English, Oxford English Dictionary spelling
Added: 2003-07-09
%%

%%
Type: grandfathered
Tag: i-default
Description: Default Language
Added: 1998-03-10
%%

%%
Type: grandfathered
Tag: i-enochian
Description: Enochian
Added: 2002-07-03
%%

%%
Type: grandfathered
Tag: i-mingo
Description: Mingo
Added: 1997-09-19
%%

%%
Type: grandfathered
Tag: zh-min
Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese
Added: 1999-12-18
Deprecated: 2029-09-09
%%

-- 
Mark

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With RFC4645bis, there are only a handful of cases (listed below) where one cannot canonicalize on input and then not ever have to deal with irregular tags. That would allow us to only have to deal with irregular codes on input, and then never again have to handle them -- which would be a very useful simplification.<br>
<br>I was thinking of proposing to the languages group that we make the following registrations:<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">languages: gaulish, default, enochian, mingo, and zhmin<br>variant: oeddict<br></div>
<br>I wanted to run this by this group first, especially to see if there is nothing on the horizon in 639 that we could use instead of any in the first group (since that would of course be preferable), and if anyone else had any thoughts on the matter.<br>
<br>%%<br>Type: grandfathered<br>Tag: cel-gaulish<br>Description: Gaulish<br>Added: 2001-05-25<br>%%<br><br>%%<br>Type: grandfathered<br>Tag: en-GB-oed<br>Description: English, Oxford English Dictionary spelling<br>Added: 2003-07-09<br>
 %%<br><br>%%<br>Type: grandfathered<br>Tag: i-default<br>Description: Default Language<br>Added: 1998-03-10<br>%%<br><br>%%<br>Type: grandfathered<br>Tag: i-enochian<br>Description: Enochian<br>Added: 2002-07-03<br>%%<br>
<br>%%<br>Type: grandfathered<br>Tag: i-mingo<br>Description: Mingo<br>Added: 1997-09-19<br>%%<br><br>%%<br> Type: grandfathered<br> Tag: zh-min<br> Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese<br> Added: 1999-12-18<br>
 Deprecated: 2029-09-09<br> %%<br> <br>-- <br>Mark 

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 15:29:36 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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John Cowan 2008-05-07 22.07:
> Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
>
> > >> So if all you know about a document is that it's in some flavor of =

> > >> Arabic, you tag it "ar".  If you know that it's in Ta'izzi-Adeni Ara=
bic, =

> > >> and wish to specify that, then you tag it "acq".
> > =

> > I assume that John will agree that it is also 100% right to use 'ar' =

> > even if you know that it is  Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic.
>
> Yes, hence the "and wish to specify that".
>   =


At the same time, I think the draft should specify that the recommended =

use of macrolanguage tags is to allways used them in a list of language =

tags.

Thus, in order to be 200% right, instead of using 'ar' for Ta'izzi-Adeni =

Arabic, on should use 'acq,ar'. Of course, only if the application =

allows it. But the draft says very little about "list of languages". And =

it also does not make the proposal that applications permit specifying =

the language in a list of tags. Only in connection with 'mul' does it =

say that a list of languages is preferred over the use of 'mul'.

It would have been possible to say about 'mul' that you should use 'a =

list of languages' only when you "wish to specify that". But that is not =

what the draft says. It says that you always should use a list of =

languages rather than the 'mul' tag.

And it seems meaningful to me that the draft should likewise always =

RECCOMMEND to that macrolanguage tags are used as part of a list =

consisting of the encompassing language (or languages) and the =

macrolangauge. Because, macrolanguage tags are like 'mul', only  more =

precise.

Thus, if we agree about this, then in the case above, the author is =

RECOMMENDED to make a choice: Either to tag with 'ar', and then the =

draft should recommend to *also* use 'acq', or to only use 'acq'.

Can a list format be specified or RECOMMENDED in this group? In HTML and =

XML, the compatible way to set up a list of language seems to be to use =

the '_' (underscore) between each language tag. Thus, for instance, for =

the list 'Bokm=E5l-Norway, Norwegian-Norway', I could set up =

lang=3D"nb-NO_no-NO'. (Usually lang=3D"nb_no" should be enough.)

If this group specify that listformat, then we don't need to bother HTML =

and XML working group(s) so much.
-- =

leif halvard silli
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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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BTW:

http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-enochian
http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-mingo
http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/zh-min
http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/cel-gaulish

For zh-min, nan might be the best choice:

%%

Type: grandfathered
Tag: zh-min
Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese
Added: 1999-12-18
Deprecated: 2029-09-09

%%
Type: grandfathered
Tag: zh-min-nan
Description: Minnan, Hokkien, Amoy, Taiwanese, Southern Min, Southern
Fujian, Hoklo, Southern Fukien, Ho-lo
Added: 2001-03-26
Preferred-Value: nan
Deprecated: 2029-09-09

cel-gaulish

it looks like this was intended to be what the ethnologue calls Brythonic:

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=92090

So we would need a new code, or ask ISO to add one. (Having codes for the
families in the Ethnologue would be pretty handy; many exist, but many
don't.)


Mark


On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
wrote:
> With RFC4645bis, there are only a handful of cases (listed below) where
one cannot canonicalize on input and then not ever have to deal with
irregular tags. That would allow us to only have to deal with irregular
codes on input, and then never again have to handle them -- which would be a
very useful simplification.
>
> I was thinking of proposing to the languages group that we make the
following registrations:
>
>
> languages: gaulish, default, enochian, mingo, and zhmin
> variant: oeddict
>
> I wanted to run this by this group first, especially to see if there is
nothing on the horizon in 639 that we could use instead of any in the first
group (since that would of course be preferable), and if anyone else had any
thoughts on the matter.
>
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: cel-gaulish
> Description: Gaulish
> Added: 2001-05-25
> %%
>
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: en-GB-oed
> Description: English, Oxford English Dictionary spelling
> Added: 2003-07-09
> %%
>
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: i-default
> Description: Default Language
> Added: 1998-03-10
> %%
>
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: i-enochian
> Description: Enochian
> Added: 2002-07-03
> %%
>
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: i-mingo
> Description: Mingo
> Added: 1997-09-19
> %%
>
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: zh-min
> Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese
> Added: 1999-12-18
> Deprecated: 2029-09-09
> %%
>
> --
> Mark



-- 
Mark

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BTW:<br><br><a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-enochian">http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-enochian</a><br><a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-mingo">http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-mingo</a><br>
<a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/zh-min">http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/zh-min</a><br><a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/cel-gaulish">http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/cel-gaulish</a><br>
<br>For zh-min, nan might be the best choice:<br><br>%%<br><br>Type: grandfathered<br>Tag: zh-min<br>Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese<br>Added: 1999-12-18<br>Deprecated: 2029-09-09<br><br>%%<br>Type: grandfathered<br>
Tag: zh-min-nan<br>Description: Minnan, Hokkien, Amoy, Taiwanese, Southern Min, Southern Fujian, Hoklo, Southern Fukien, Ho-lo<br>Added: 2001-03-26<br>Preferred-Value: nan<br>Deprecated: 2029-09-09<br><br>cel-gaulish<br><br>
 it looks like this was intended to be what the ethnologue calls Brythonic:<br><br><a href="http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=92090">http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=92090</a><br><br>So we would need a new code, or ask ISO to add one. (Having codes for the families in the Ethnologue would be pretty handy; many exist, but many don&#39;t.)<br>
<br><br>Mark<br> <br><br>On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Mark Davis &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; With RFC4645bis, there are only a handful of cases (listed below) where one cannot canonicalize on input and then not ever have to deal with irregular tags. That would allow us to only have to deal with irregular codes on input, and then never again have to handle them -- which would be a very useful simplification.<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; I was thinking of proposing to the languages group that we make the following registrations:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; languages: gaulish, default, enochian, mingo, and zhmin<br>&gt; variant: oeddict<br>&gt; <br>
&gt; I wanted to run this by this group first, especially to see if there is nothing on the horizon in 639 that we could use instead of any in the first group (since that would of course be preferable), and if anyone else had any thoughts on the matter.<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>&gt; Tag: cel-gaulish<br>&gt; Description: Gaulish<br>&gt; Added: 2001-05-25<br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; <br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>&gt; Tag: en-GB-oed<br>&gt; Description: English, Oxford English Dictionary spelling<br>
&gt; Added: 2003-07-09<br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; <br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>&gt; Tag: i-default<br>&gt; Description: Default Language<br>&gt; Added: 1998-03-10<br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; <br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>
&gt; Tag: i-enochian<br>&gt; Description: Enochian<br>&gt; Added: 2002-07-03<br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; <br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>&gt; Tag: i-mingo<br>&gt; Description: Mingo<br>&gt; Added: 1997-09-19<br>&gt; %%<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>&gt; Tag: zh-min<br>&gt; Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese<br>&gt; Added: 1999-12-18<br>&gt; Deprecated: 2029-09-09<br>&gt; %%<br>&gt; <br>&gt; -- <br>&gt; Mark <br>
<br><br><br>-- <br>Mark 

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To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Peter Constable 2008-05-06 20.49:
> > Leif Halvard Silli Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:54 AM
>
> > How about this change:
>
> [ ... see reworked version below ...  ]
>   =

> Essentially that says don't use zh in any data category if there's a poss=
ibility that someday you may need to use yue (or nan, etc.) in that same da=
ta category. That entails, for instance, either that we can use xml:lang=3D=
"zh" and must never use xml:lang=3D"yue", or that we must henceforth stop e=
ver using xml:lang=3D"zh".
>
> Seems to me that some might find that problematic.
>   =


How about seting up a list of languages? For example xml:lang=3D"cmn,zh". =

Here is new text variant, were I take tat in. See explanation beneath:

    In general, use the most specific subtag to form the language tag.
    When a macrolanguage tag has to be used, for example because
    compatibility issues forbids a complete switch to the more spesific
    language subtag, then it is RECOMMENDED to use it as part of a list
    of language tags. If the application does not permit tag lists, then
    consider nesting.  In both tag lists and in nesting it is
    RECOMMENDED to mention the macrolanguage tag after the spesific
    language subtag(s).  For mark-up languages, the recommended list
    format for compatibility reasons uses the '_' (underscore) character
    as separator. If compatibility forbids lists or nesting, then the
    macrolanguage tag MAY be used alone.

    Examples of language list and nesting:

    HTTP: type text/html, language cmn,zh
    HTML: <html lang=3Dcmn_zh>
    Nesting, HTML: <html lang=3Dyue><body lang=3Dzh>text</div></div>

    It is RECOMMENDED that macrolanguage tags never are used to discern
    one particular encompassed language from a another encompassed
    language of the same macrolanguage. For example, even if it is
    technically possible, it is not meaningful to discern between
    Chinese (zh) and Cantonese (yue), if one really means to discern
    between Mandarin (cmn) and Cantonese (yue). The workaround is to use
    a tag list or nesting for the language one wishes to associate the
    macrolanguage tag with.

    Thus Mandarine, Chinese (cmn,yu) versus Cantonese (yue). Or Bokm=E5l,
    Norwegian (nb,no) versus Nynorsk (nn) rather than Norwegian (no)
    versus Nynorsk (nn).


I think what you are missing is a way to tag the same resource with two =

tags. We discussed it on w3-l18n allready =

<http://www.w3.org/mid/fv40ju$moh$1@ger.gmane.org>. And I think the =

compatible way is to use the underscore character as separator between each.

The draft allready says that, quote "a list of languages (such as =

Content-Language" should be used instead of the 'mul' tag. But the draft =

does not seem to have a note were it, in general, recommends that =

applications permits "list of languges" to be used, and neither does it =

recommend a list format. The macrolanguage issue is an issue which =

especially the for such lists urgent.

I think that 4646bis should RECOMMEND the use of several tags when it =

comes to macrolangue tags. Thus, when and if it comes to macrolanguage =

tags, one should *always* RECOMMEND using the macrolanguage as part of a =

list of the encompassed languages one has in mind.
-- =

leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Peter Constable 2008-05-07 08.04:
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 7:00 PM
>
> > Not so sure that we will get accuracy; frankly I think the
> > introduction of cmn, arb, etc. were well intentioned, but in
> > retrospect a mistake. There was no reason not to treat zh, ar,
> > etc just like we treated de. There is no substantive difference
> > between zh:yue and de:gsw.
>
> Well, speaking in relation to ISO 639-3, at least, if something were to have been done differently, it would have been to treat de as a macro-language, not to treat zh and ar as limited to the major varieties.  [ ... snip ... ]

Agree.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Leif Halvard Silli" <lhs@malform.no>
> To: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
...
> The draft allready says that, quote "a list of languages (such as 
> Content-Language" should be used instead of the 'mul' tag. But the draft 
> does not seem to have a note were it, in general, recommends that 
> applications permits "list of languges" to be used, and neither does it 
> recommend a list format. The macrolanguage issue is an issue which 
> especially the for such lists urgent.
>
> I think that 4646bis should RECOMMEND the use of several tags when it 
> comes to macrolangue tags. Thus, when and if it comes to macrolanguage 
> tags, one should *always* RECOMMEND using the macrolanguage as part of a 
> list of the encompassed languages one has in mind.
...

I think that's really beyond our scope as a working group.

What might be an appropriate syntax for a list of language tags
will depend very much on the protocol or file format in which the
list is use.  For example, an appropriate syntax in ASN.1 BER would
be completely different from what might make sense in an XML-based
syntax.

Randy

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
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>From what I'm reading on the Web -- I'm no expert in this area -- it 
appears that Brythonic includes Welsh, Cornish, and Breton. Gaulish seems 
to be a more specific tag. 

ISO 639-3 offers:

Identifier: xcg 
Name: Cisalpine Gaulish 

Identifier: xtg
Name: Transalpine Gaulish

Would either of these suffice?  (Hmm. And would extlang be useful here 
too?)

"oeddict" -- I might prefer "oxford" as the tag if there's not another 
linguistic use for that term. 

"zhmin" -- Seeing the discussion this week on this list, I'd suggest that 
any tag name using "zh" is asking for a semantic mess. *In practice*, this 
would be understood as Mandarin-Hokkien under current assumptions, which 
doesn't make much sense.  If this is not the same as "nan", would a name 
like "hokkien" be preferable? 

Regards,

Karen Broome





"Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org> 
Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
05/07/2008 03:35 PM

To
"LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
cc

Subject
Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags






BTW:

http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-enochian
http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-mingo
http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/zh-min
http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/cel-gaulish

For zh-min, nan might be the best choice:

%%

Type: grandfathered
Tag: zh-min
Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese
Added: 1999-12-18
Deprecated: 2029-09-09

%%
Type: grandfathered
Tag: zh-min-nan
Description: Minnan, Hokkien, Amoy, Taiwanese, Southern Min, Southern 
Fujian, Hoklo, Southern Fukien, Ho-lo
Added: 2001-03-26
Preferred-Value: nan
Deprecated: 2029-09-09

cel-gaulish

it looks like this was intended to be what the ethnologue calls Brythonic:

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=92090

So we would need a new code, or ask ISO to add one. (Having codes for the 
families in the Ethnologue would be pretty handy; many exist, but many 
don't.)


Mark


On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> 
wrote:
> With RFC4645bis, there are only a handful of cases (listed below) where 
one cannot canonicalize on input and then not ever have to deal with 
irregular tags. That would allow us to only have to deal with irregular 
codes on input, and then never again have to handle them -- which would be 
a very useful simplification.
> 
> I was thinking of proposing to the languages group that we make the 
following registrations:
> 
> 
> languages: gaulish, default, enochian, mingo, and zhmin
> variant: oeddict
> 
> I wanted to run this by this group first, especially to see if there is 
nothing on the horizon in 639 that we could use instead of any in the 
first group (since that would of course be preferable), and if anyone else 
had any thoughts on the matter.
> 
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: cel-gaulish
> Description: Gaulish
> Added: 2001-05-25
> %%
> 
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: en-GB-oed
> Description: English, Oxford English Dictionary spelling
> Added: 2003-07-09
> %%
> 
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: i-default
> Description: Default Language
> Added: 1998-03-10
> %%
> 
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: i-enochian
> Description: Enochian
> Added: 2002-07-03
> %%
> 
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: i-mingo
> Description: Mingo
> Added: 1997-09-19
> %%
> 
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: zh-min
> Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese
> Added: 1999-12-18
> Deprecated: 2029-09-09
> %%
> 
> -- 
> Mark 



-- 
Mark _______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



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Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 16:30:20 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
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Good points.

I miscopied for Gaulish; it looks like the Ethnolog is missing the
continental branch.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90047

xtg looks right to me for that. (For those who don't remember their cis vs
trans, cis is the Italian side, and trans is the barbarian side ;-)

On zh-Min, it looks to me like nan works. (If it doesn't I think you're
right that zhmin is probably a bad choice.)

Mark

On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 4:11 PM, <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:

> From what I'm reading on the Web -- I'm no expert in this area -- it
> appears that Brythonic includes Welsh, Cornish, and Breton. Gaulish seems
> to be a more specific tag.
>
> ISO 639-3 offers:
>
> Identifier: xcg
> Name: Cisalpine Gaulish
>
> Identifier: xtg
> Name: Transalpine Gaulish
>
> Would either of these suffice?  (Hmm. And would extlang be useful here
> too?)
>
> "oeddict" -- I might prefer "oxford" as the tag if there's not another
> linguistic use for that term.
>
> "zhmin" -- Seeing the discussion this week on this list, I'd suggest that
> any tag name using "zh" is asking for a semantic mess. *In practice*, this
> would be understood as Mandarin-Hokkien under current assumptions, which
> doesn't make much sense.  If this is not the same as "nan", would a name
> like "hokkien" be preferable?
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>
>
>
>
>
> "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> 05/07/2008 03:35 PM
>
> To
> "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
>
>
>
>
>
>
> BTW:
>
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-enochian
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-mingo
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/zh-min
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/cel-gaulish
>
> For zh-min, nan might be the best choice:
>
> %%
>
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: zh-min
> Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese
> Added: 1999-12-18
> Deprecated: 2029-09-09
>
> %%
> Type: grandfathered
> Tag: zh-min-nan
> Description: Minnan, Hokkien, Amoy, Taiwanese, Southern Min, Southern
> Fujian, Hoklo, Southern Fukien, Ho-lo
> Added: 2001-03-26
> Preferred-Value: nan
> Deprecated: 2029-09-09
>
> cel-gaulish
>
> it looks like this was intended to be what the ethnologue calls Brythonic:
>
> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=92090
>
> So we would need a new code, or ask ISO to add one. (Having codes for the
> families in the Ethnologue would be pretty handy; many exist, but many
> don't.)
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> wrote:
> > With RFC4645bis, there are only a handful of cases (listed below) where
> one cannot canonicalize on input and then not ever have to deal with
> irregular tags. That would allow us to only have to deal with irregular
> codes on input, and then never again have to handle them -- which would be
> a very useful simplification.
> >
> > I was thinking of proposing to the languages group that we make the
> following registrations:
> >
> >
> > languages: gaulish, default, enochian, mingo, and zhmin
> > variant: oeddict
> >
> > I wanted to run this by this group first, especially to see if there is
> nothing on the horizon in 639 that we could use instead of any in the
> first group (since that would of course be preferable), and if anyone else
> had any thoughts on the matter.
> >
> > %%
> > Type: grandfathered
> > Tag: cel-gaulish
> > Description: Gaulish
> > Added: 2001-05-25
> > %%
> >
> > %%
> > Type: grandfathered
> > Tag: en-GB-oed
> > Description: English, Oxford English Dictionary spelling
> > Added: 2003-07-09
> > %%
> >
> > %%
> > Type: grandfathered
> > Tag: i-default
> > Description: Default Language
> > Added: 1998-03-10
> > %%
> >
> > %%
> > Type: grandfathered
> > Tag: i-enochian
> > Description: Enochian
> > Added: 2002-07-03
> > %%
> >
> > %%
> > Type: grandfathered
> > Tag: i-mingo
> > Description: Mingo
> > Added: 1997-09-19
> > %%
> >
> > %%
> > Type: grandfathered
> > Tag: zh-min
> > Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese
> > Added: 1999-12-18
> > Deprecated: 2029-09-09
> > %%
> >
> > --
> > Mark
>
>
>
> --
> Mark _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
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Good points.<br><br>I miscopied for Gaulish; it looks like the Ethnolog is missing the continental branch.<br><br><a href="http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90047">http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90047</a><br>
<br><span class="p-match">xtg looks right to me for that. (For those who don&#39;t remember their cis vs trans, cis is the Italian side, and trans is the barbarian side ;-)<br><br>On zh-Min, it looks to me like nan works. (If it doesn&#39;t I think you&#39;re right that zhmin is probably a bad choice.)<br>
<br>Mark<br></span><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 4:11 PM,  &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
&gt;From what I&#39;m reading on the Web -- I&#39;m no expert in this area -- it<br>
appears that Brythonic includes Welsh, Cornish, and Breton. Gaulish seems<br>
to be a more specific tag.<br>
<br>
ISO 639-3 offers:<br>
<br>
Identifier: xcg<br>
Name: Cisalpine Gaulish<br>
<br>
Identifier: xtg<br>
Name: Transalpine Gaulish<br>
<br>
Would either of these suffice? &nbsp;(Hmm. And would extlang be useful here<br>
too?)<br>
<br>
&quot;oeddict&quot; -- I might prefer &quot;oxford&quot; as the tag if there&#39;s not another<br>
linguistic use for that term.<br>
<br>
&quot;zhmin&quot; -- Seeing the discussion this week on this list, I&#39;d suggest that<br>
any tag name using &quot;zh&quot; is asking for a semantic mess. *In practice*, this<br>
would be understood as Mandarin-Hokkien under current assumptions, which<br>
doesn&#39;t make much sense. &nbsp;If this is not the same as &quot;nan&quot;, would a name<br>
like &quot;hokkien&quot; be preferable?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Karen Broome<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt;<br>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d">Sent by: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a><br>
</div>05/07/2008 03:35 PM<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
To<br>
&quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
cc<br>
<br>
Subject<br>
</div>Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
BTW:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-enochian" target="_blank">http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-enochian</a><br>
<a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-mingo" target="_blank">http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-mingo</a><br>
<a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/zh-min" target="_blank">http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/zh-min</a><br>
<a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/cel-gaulish" target="_blank">http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/cel-gaulish</a><br>
<br>
For zh-min, nan might be the best choice:<br>
<br>
%%<br>
<br>
Type: grandfathered<br>
Tag: zh-min<br>
Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese<br>
Added: 1999-12-18<br>
Deprecated: 2029-09-09<br>
<br>
%%<br>
Type: grandfathered<br>
Tag: zh-min-nan<br>
Description: Minnan, Hokkien, Amoy, Taiwanese, Southern Min, Southern<br>
Fujian, Hoklo, Southern Fukien, Ho-lo<br>
Added: 2001-03-26<br>
Preferred-Value: nan<br>
Deprecated: 2029-09-09<br>
<br>
cel-gaulish<br>
<br>
it looks like this was intended to be what the ethnologue calls Brythonic:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=92090" target="_blank">http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=92090</a><br>
<br>
So we would need a new code, or ask ISO to add one. (Having codes for the<br>
families in the Ethnologue would be pretty handy; many exist, but many<br>
don&#39;t.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Mark Davis &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt;<br>
wrote:<br>
&gt; With RFC4645bis, there are only a handful of cases (listed below) where<br>
one cannot canonicalize on input and then not ever have to deal with<br>
irregular tags. That would allow us to only have to deal with irregular<br>
codes on input, and then never again have to handle them -- which would be<br>
a very useful simplification.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I was thinking of proposing to the languages group that we make the<br>
following registrations:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; languages: gaulish, default, enochian, mingo, and zhmin<br>
&gt; variant: oeddict<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I wanted to run this by this group first, especially to see if there is<br>
nothing on the horizon in 639 that we could use instead of any in the<br>
first group (since that would of course be preferable), and if anyone else<br>
had any thoughts on the matter.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>
&gt; Tag: cel-gaulish<br>
&gt; Description: Gaulish<br>
&gt; Added: 2001-05-25<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>
&gt; Tag: en-GB-oed<br>
&gt; Description: English, Oxford English Dictionary spelling<br>
&gt; Added: 2003-07-09<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>
&gt; Tag: i-default<br>
&gt; Description: Default Language<br>
&gt; Added: 1998-03-10<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>
&gt; Tag: i-enochian<br>
&gt; Description: Enochian<br>
&gt; Added: 2002-07-03<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>
&gt; Tag: i-mingo<br>
&gt; Description: Mingo<br>
&gt; Added: 1997-09-19<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt; Type: grandfathered<br>
&gt; Tag: zh-min<br>
&gt; Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese<br>
&gt; Added: 1999-12-18<br>
&gt; Deprecated: 2029-09-09<br>
&gt; %%<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
</div></div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">Mark _______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 16:31:25 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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'Stephane Bortzmeyer' 2008-05-07 15.47:
> May 07, 2008 at 10:25:11AM +0100 Debbie Garside [...] said:
>
> > I missed the whole extlang debate so I don't really know all the
> > reasons why it was dismissed.
>
> [My personal summary]
>   
> * politically, it may send the message that the encompassed language
> is inferior in some way.
>   

I start to realise that the extlang issue is dead, and I might also 
agree that it was not a perfect approach. I think we should instead see 
the macrolanguage tags in relationship to the 'mul' tag (since the draft 
says that a list format should be used instead of 'mul') and specify a 
list format, because that is obviously what is needed. For mark-up 
languages, one could use the '_' (underscore) character as separator and 
write lang="cmn_zh" in order to tag it with two tags simultaneously, 
when that is needed.

That said, and as a speaker of a "microlanguage", I have to say that of 
all the arguments against extlang, the above "political" argument is the 
most ill taken an most illogical. The opposite is true: It lifts the 
extlang language to a higher status, so to speak. For instance, if 
de-gsw was allowed, then it would mean that Swiss German was formally 
counted in as a German language. It would also mean that de-ger was 
right. And this would place all the encompassed languages of a 
macrolanguage on a equal footing. Perhaps the macrolanguage would feel 
that as a degradation, though - *that* would be a much more real issue.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 16:42:26 2008
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Peter Constable 2008-05-07 17.13:
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > 'Stephane Bortzmeyer'
>
>
> > > I missed the whole extlang debate so I don't really know all the
> > > reasons why it was dismissed.
> >
> > [My personal summary]
> >
> > * stability issues (what if a "standalone" language becomes
> > encompassed or the opposite?).
>
> Wasn't an issue if we used extlang only for pre-existing cases, not new cases.
>   

It would also not be an issue if we set up a list format. Or, well, if 
'cmn' was removed from 'zh', then that would be a problem if you had 
tagged it as 'cmn,zh'.

But assuming that the real problems will consist of "standalone" 
languages being "promoted" to macrolanguage, not that it is is "demoted" 
from that status, then, if for example "de" became a macrolanguage tag, 
then documents tagged as "de" would not be incorrectly tagged, but 
simply not as presice as possible. To be presice and backward 
compatible, one would have to start to tag all Standard German documents 
with the list "ger,de".
-- 
leif halvard silli

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 16:44:55 2008
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Peter and I and a few others here at Microsoft chatted a bit, and our current thinking is that zh has to have a distinct meaning from cmn.  Existing "zh" data isn't necessarily Mandarin, and requiring Mandarin to be tagged more generically would mean that one would never know if "zh" was generic Chinese or Mandarin.

We are also happy with the "cmn" and "yue" codes as currently drafted (no extlang).

My concerns regarding fallback are probably solvable by "lists".  If the user specifies "cmn" and also "zh" as their language, then I can find cmn or zh resources.  Similarly if a document is tagged as cmn and also zh, then it is more likely to be found by legacy software.

Which leads me to thinking of lists in general.  What I like about extlang was the association of "zh" with "cmn" for possible fallback purposes.  It seems that Karen has similar concerns about the text content of her media with the zh-cmn preference that lets her know it is Chinese as well as Mandarin.  If the content could be tagged with both zh & cmn (dueling tags ;-), then perhaps her needs are met.

I think that there are many cases were lists are interesting.  In the Arabic cases, someone might want the acq,ar behavior for some resources because they were particularly interested in those users, but may also have more general ar resources for the rest of the Arabic speakers.  (I'm shooting for the general idea, I don't know that much about the Arabic differences.)

Similarly I could easily see a French/English dictionary as needing to be tagged "fr,en".  I've seen books with the translations in columns next to the original text.  I could easily imagine looking in a library to find a DVD that has en & fr & es voice and additionally en, fr, es, de & jp subtitles.  The DVD should maybe be tagged with all the tags, but the tracks themselves would only need their specific tag.

So I think that its worth a section in the draft to discuss language lists and their potential value for implementers, particularly those building other standards off of RFC 4646bis.  I don't think there should be MUSTard in that section, but I think it would be helpful to those trying to figure out how to apply RFC 4646bis to their specific needs.

Summary:
* We're OK with cmn & yue
* zh and cmn have to have different meanings
* Its worth thinking about cases when data or queries need multiple language tags.

- Shawn

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>
> At the same time, I think the draft should specify that the recommended
> use of macrolanguage tags is to allways used them in a list of language
> tags.

That doesn't make sense. For starters, frequently one CANNOT use a list. Your notes below about HTML and XML are not correct in that regard, at least for the lang/xml:lang attributes, xsd:language data type, and so forth.


>
> And it seems meaningful to me that the draft should likewise always
> RECCOMMEND to that macrolanguage tags are used as part of a list
> consisting of the encompassing language (or languages) and the
> macrolangauge. Because, macrolanguage tags are like 'mul', only  more
> precise.

There are many (I suspect it's actually most) cases where either the macrolanguage or the enclosed language (but not both) are the right choice. Further, putting multiple tags on content is even more confusing than having multiple tags to choose from. What does it say to tag something "fr,en" (for example)?

I agree that we should provide good guidance on tag choice, especially when it comes to the vexing problem of overlapping subtags (as macro/enclosed languages provide). But the tag choice problem is ever with us--more so, now that we have 7000 more primary language subtags to choose between.

>
> Can a list format be specified or RECOMMENDED in this group? In HTML
> and
> XML, the compatible way to set up a list of language seems to be to use
> the '_' (underscore) between each language tag.

Again, I'm not sure what you're referring to here, but I think you'll find that defining lists is out of scope... and doesn't necessarily solve the problem you're trying to solve.

Regards,

Addison


Addison Phillips
Chair -- W3C Internationalization WG

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.



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> What does it say to tag something "fr,en" (for example)?

That it's a French/English dictionary, or a DVD with French & English tracks, or a translation where the original is provided as well, or...?

I agree that in most cases a list isn't the right choice, but in some cases I think its very interesting.  I don't think that we should define a MUST list use, but I do think its appropriate to mention that some people may want lists.

- Shawn
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What you are describing has been described by the W3C Internationalization working group. We have tutorial material on the difference between the "content processing language" and the "language of the intended audience".

A list of language tags can be useful for the later. For the former, most data formats (for example, XML) force you to specify a single language per "segment"---which is really what you want for processing. For audience, you might use a list. Although, frankly, most content serves a specific language audience. Not "all", must "most".

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Shawn Steele
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:45 PM
> To: Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> Peter and I and a few others here at Microsoft chatted a bit, and our
> current thinking is that zh has to have a distinct meaning from cmn.
> Existing "zh" data isn't necessarily Mandarin, and requiring Mandarin
> to be tagged more generically would mean that one would never know if
> "zh" was generic Chinese or Mandarin.
>
> We are also happy with the "cmn" and "yue" codes as currently drafted
> (no extlang).
>
> My concerns regarding fallback are probably solvable by "lists".  If
> the user specifies "cmn" and also "zh" as their language, then I can
> find cmn or zh resources.  Similarly if a document is tagged as cmn and
> also zh, then it is more likely to be found by legacy software.
>
> Which leads me to thinking of lists in general.  What I like about
> extlang was the association of "zh" with "cmn" for possible fallback
> purposes.  It seems that Karen has similar concerns about the text
> content of her media with the zh-cmn preference that lets her know it
> is Chinese as well as Mandarin.  If the content could be tagged with
> both zh & cmn (dueling tags ;-), then perhaps her needs are met.
>
> I think that there are many cases were lists are interesting.  In the
> Arabic cases, someone might want the acq,ar behavior for some resources
> because they were particularly interested in those users, but may also
> have more general ar resources for the rest of the Arabic speakers.
> (I'm shooting for the general idea, I don't know that much about the
> Arabic differences.)
>
> Similarly I could easily see a French/English dictionary as needing to
> be tagged "fr,en".  I've seen books with the translations in columns
> next to the original text.  I could easily imagine looking in a library
> to find a DVD that has en & fr & es voice and additionally en, fr, es,
> de & jp subtitles.  The DVD should maybe be tagged with all the tags,
> but the tracks themselves would only need their specific tag.
>
> So I think that its worth a section in the draft to discuss language
> lists and their potential value for implementers, particularly those
> building other standards off of RFC 4646bis.  I don't think there
> should be MUSTard in that section, but I think it would be helpful to
> those trying to figure out how to apply RFC 4646bis to their specific
> needs.
>
> Summary:
> * We're OK with cmn & yue
> * zh and cmn have to have different meanings
> * Its worth thinking about cases when data or queries need multiple
> language tags.
>
> - Shawn
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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I am OK with this. I think it's OK to use "cmn" and "yue" on their own as 
long as the recommendation for Mandarin (written and spoken) is clearly 
"cmn"; and "zh" and "cmn" are not viewed in theory or in practice as 
synonyms. I agree very much with the reasoning expressed below. I might 
have a preference for extlang, but the solution below results in neither a 
semantic narrowing to "zh" nor conditional tag recommendations that will 
be impossible to explain.

Best regards,

Karen Broome

ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/07/2008 04:44:48 PM:

> Peter and I and a few others here at Microsoft chatted a bit, and 
> our current thinking is that zh has to have a distinct meaning from 
> cmn.  Existing "zh" data isn't necessarily Mandarin, and requiring 
> Mandarin to be tagged more generically would mean that one would 
> never know if "zh" was generic Chinese or Mandarin.
> 
> We are also happy with the "cmn" and "yue" codes as currently 
> drafted (no extlang).
> 
> My concerns regarding fallback are probably solvable by "lists".  If
> the user specifies "cmn" and also "zh" as their language, then I can
> find cmn or zh resources.  Similarly if a document is tagged as cmn 
> and also zh, then it is more likely to be found by legacy software.
> 
> Which leads me to thinking of lists in general.  What I like about 
> extlang was the association of "zh" with "cmn" for possible fallback
> purposes.  It seems that Karen has similar concerns about the text 
> content of her media with the zh-cmn preference that lets her know 
> it is Chinese as well as Mandarin.  If the content could be tagged 
> with both zh & cmn (dueling tags ;-), then perhaps her needs are met.
> 
> I think that there are many cases were lists are interesting.  In 
> the Arabic cases, someone might want the acq,ar behavior for some 
> resources because they were particularly interested in those users, 
> but may also have more general ar resources for the rest of the 
> Arabic speakers.  (I'm shooting for the general idea, I don't know 
> that much about the Arabic differences.)
> 
> Similarly I could easily see a French/English dictionary as needing 
> to be tagged "fr,en".  I've seen books with the translations in 
> columns next to the original text.  I could easily imagine looking 
> in a library to find a DVD that has en & fr & es voice and 
> additionally en, fr, es, de & jp subtitles.  The DVD should maybe be
> tagged with all the tags, but the tracks themselves would only need 
> their specific tag.
> 
> So I think that its worth a section in the draft to discuss language
> lists and their potential value for implementers, particularly those
> building other standards off of RFC 4646bis.  I don't think there 
> should be MUSTard in that section, but I think it would be helpful 
> to those trying to figure out how to apply RFC 4646bis to their 
> specific needs.
> 
> Summary:
> * We're OK with cmn & yue
> * zh and cmn have to have different meanings
> * Its worth thinking about cases when data or queries need multiple 
> language tags.
> 
> - Shawn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 


_______________________________________________
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See my other note.

As an indicator of intended audience a list can have meaning. But not:

<p xml:lang="fr,en">Which language should be used to process this sentence?</p>

Lists are sometimes appropriate. But sometimes they are not.

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:48 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; Leif Halvard Silli; John Cowan
> Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
>
> > What does it say to tag something "fr,en" (for example)?
>
> That it's a French/English dictionary, or a DVD with French & English
> tracks, or a translation where the original is provided as well, or...?
>
> I agree that in most cases a list isn't the right choice, but in some
> cases I think its very interesting.  I don't think that we should
> define a MUST list use, but I do think its appropriate to mention that
> some people may want lists.
>
> - Shawn
_______________________________________________
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To: "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>, Shawn Steele
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I'm okay with this. What we need to do is translate that in specific text in draft-14.

I *think* what we're doing here is removing the "SHOULD" sentence about macrolanguage-used-for-dominant-enclosed-variety.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:56 PM
> To: Shawn Steele
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> I am OK with this. I think it's OK to use "cmn" and "yue" on their own
> as
> long as the recommendation for Mandarin (written and spoken) is clearly
> "cmn"; and "zh" and "cmn" are not viewed in theory or in practice as
> synonyms. I agree very much with the reasoning expressed below. I might
> have a preference for extlang, but the solution below results in
> neither a
> semantic narrowing to "zh" nor conditional tag recommendations that
> will
> be impossible to explain.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>
> ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/07/2008 04:44:48 PM:
>
> > Peter and I and a few others here at Microsoft chatted a bit, and
> > our current thinking is that zh has to have a distinct meaning from
> > cmn.  Existing "zh" data isn't necessarily Mandarin, and requiring
> > Mandarin to be tagged more generically would mean that one would
> > never know if "zh" was generic Chinese or Mandarin.
> >
> > We are also happy with the "cmn" and "yue" codes as currently
> > drafted (no extlang).
> >
> > My concerns regarding fallback are probably solvable by "lists".  If
> > the user specifies "cmn" and also "zh" as their language, then I can
> > find cmn or zh resources.  Similarly if a document is tagged as cmn
> > and also zh, then it is more likely to be found by legacy software.
> >
> > Which leads me to thinking of lists in general.  What I like about
> > extlang was the association of "zh" with "cmn" for possible fallback
> > purposes.  It seems that Karen has similar concerns about the text
> > content of her media with the zh-cmn preference that lets her know
> > it is Chinese as well as Mandarin.  If the content could be tagged
> > with both zh & cmn (dueling tags ;-), then perhaps her needs are met.
> >
> > I think that there are many cases were lists are interesting.  In
> > the Arabic cases, someone might want the acq,ar behavior for some
> > resources because they were particularly interested in those users,
> > but may also have more general ar resources for the rest of the
> > Arabic speakers.  (I'm shooting for the general idea, I don't know
> > that much about the Arabic differences.)
> >
> > Similarly I could easily see a French/English dictionary as needing
> > to be tagged "fr,en".  I've seen books with the translations in
> > columns next to the original text.  I could easily imagine looking
> > in a library to find a DVD that has en & fr & es voice and
> > additionally en, fr, es, de & jp subtitles.  The DVD should maybe be
> > tagged with all the tags, but the tracks themselves would only need
> > their specific tag.
> >
> > So I think that its worth a section in the draft to discuss language
> > lists and their potential value for implementers, particularly those
> > building other standards off of RFC 4646bis.  I don't think there
> > should be MUSTard in that section, but I think it would be helpful
> > to those trying to figure out how to apply RFC 4646bis to their
> > specific needs.
> >
> > Summary:
> > * We're OK with cmn & yue
> > * zh and cmn have to have different meanings
> > * Its worth thinking about cases when data or queries need multiple
> > language tags.
> >
> > - Shawn
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
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My hope was that by mentioning a list and its possible uses, then those standards which derive from RFC 4646bis may consider whether or not list-like behavior is interesting for them.  Lists certainly shouldn't be required.  There are probably many other groups that could use lists that aren't part of the W3C effort.

- Shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:59 PM
To: Shawn Steele; Peter Constable
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"

What you are describing has been described by the W3C Internationalization working group. We have tutorial material on the difference between the "content processing language" and the "language of the intended audience".

A list of language tags can be useful for the later. For the former, most data formats (for example, XML) force you to specify a single language per "segment"---which is really what you want for processing. For audience, you might use a list. Although, frankly, most content serves a specific language audience. Not "all", must "most".

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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That's why I said that we shouldn't use MUST :)  But I think it is appropriate to mention lists for those cases where it might be useful.  Obviously your example is not one of those.  Tagging of DVDs might be.

- Shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:01 PM
To: Shawn Steele; Leif Halvard Silli; John Cowan
Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

See my other note.

As an indicator of intended audience a list can have meaning. But not:

<p xml:lang="fr,en">Which language should be used to process this sentence?</p>

Lists are sometimes appropriate. But sometimes they are not.

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:48 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; Leif Halvard Silli; John Cowan
> Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
>
> > What does it say to tag something "fr,en" (for example)?
>
> That it's a French/English dictionary, or a DVD with French & English
> tracks, or a translation where the original is provided as well, or...?
>
> I agree that in most cases a list isn't the right choice, but in some
> cases I think its very interesting.  I don't think that we should
> define a MUST list use, but I do think its appropriate to mention that
> some people may want lists.
>
> - Shawn
_______________________________________________
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, Peter Constable
	<petercon@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 17:19:50 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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We're playing telegram here (laughing).

In the response I just sent, I point out that lists are extensively dealt with in RFC 4647, which is, after all, part of BCP 47.

We can mention lists more in 4646 too. Putting on my editor hat, though, do you have specific text to suggest? It is usually easier (and more productive) to work directly on text.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:17 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> My hope was that by mentioning a list and its possible uses, then those
> standards which derive from RFC 4646bis may consider whether or not
> list-like behavior is interesting for them.  Lists certainly shouldn't
> be required.  There are probably many other groups that could use lists
> that aren't part of the W3C effort.
>
> - Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:59 PM
> To: Shawn Steele; Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> What you are describing has been described by the W3C
> Internationalization working group. We have tutorial material on the
> difference between the "content processing language" and the "language
> of the intended audience".
>
> A list of language tags can be useful for the later. For the former,
> most data formats (for example, XML) force you to specify a single
> language per "segment"---which is really what you want for processing.
> For audience, you might use a list. Although, frankly, most content
> serves a specific language audience. Not "all", must "most".
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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I think we mostly agree :) I'd like a mention in RFC4646, but obviously 4647 would be more appropriate.

I'll try to think of some text.

- Shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:20 PM
To: Shawn Steele; Peter Constable
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"

We're playing telegram here (laughing).

In the response I just sent, I point out that lists are extensively dealt with in RFC 4647, which is, after all, part of BCP 47.

We can mention lists more in 4646 too. Putting on my editor hat, though, do you have specific text to suggest? It is usually easier (and more productive) to work directly on text.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:17 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> My hope was that by mentioning a list and its possible uses, then those
> standards which derive from RFC 4646bis may consider whether or not
> list-like behavior is interesting for them.  Lists certainly shouldn't
> be required.  There are probably many other groups that could use lists
> that aren't part of the W3C effort.
>
> - Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:59 PM
> To: Shawn Steele; Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> What you are describing has been described by the W3C
> Internationalization working group. We have tutorial material on the
> difference between the "content processing language" and the "language
> of the intended audience".
>
> A list of language tags can be useful for the later. For the former,
> most data formats (for example, XML) force you to specify a single
> language per "segment"---which is really what you want for processing.
> For audience, you might use a list. Although, frankly, most content
> serves a specific language audience. Not "all", must "most".
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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Okay, but maybe see if 4647 doesn't already meet the need. I would hate to open up that document to editing unless strictly necessary.

What's more immediate would be thinking about text in the section on "choice" draft-14 or possibly incorporating some of the "language of content processing" vs. "language of audience" text into the document (via reference, perhaps??)

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:21 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> I think we mostly agree :) I'd like a mention in RFC4646, but obviously
> 4647 would be more appropriate.
>
> I'll try to think of some text.
>
> - Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:20 PM
> To: Shawn Steele; Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> We're playing telegram here (laughing).
>
> In the response I just sent, I point out that lists are extensively
> dealt with in RFC 4647, which is, after all, part of BCP 47.
>
> We can mention lists more in 4646 too. Putting on my editor hat, though,
> do you have specific text to suggest? It is usually easier (and more
> productive) to work directly on text.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:17 PM
> > To: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to
> "zh"
> >
> > My hope was that by mentioning a list and its possible uses, then
> those
> > standards which derive from RFC 4646bis may consider whether or not
> > list-like behavior is interesting for them.  Lists certainly
> shouldn't
> > be required.  There are probably many other groups that could use
> lists
> > that aren't part of the W3C effort.
> >
> > - Shawn
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:59 PM
> > To: Shawn Steele; Peter Constable
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to
> "zh"
> >
> > What you are describing has been described by the W3C
> > Internationalization working group. We have tutorial material on the
> > difference between the "content processing language" and the
> "language
> > of the intended audience".
> >
> > A list of language tags can be useful for the later. For the former,
> > most data formats (for example, XML) force you to specify a single
> > language per "segment"---which is really what you want for processing.
> > For audience, you might use a list. Although, frankly, most content
> > serves a specific language audience. Not "all", must "most".
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > Addison Phillips
> > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> >
> > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > It is an architecture.
> >

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Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 17:25:01 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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We sometimes don't know exactly what the content is. If you are the author
presumably you know, but if you aren't, you might not. So it does make sense
to say:

<data xml:lang="xtg,xcg">{this is some content that is either Cisalpine
Gaulish or Transalpine Gaulish, or maybe a mixture and I can't figure out
which.}</data>

or even

<data xml:lang="en,fr">chat</data> <!--from language detection, we know that
one of these is true, but we don't know more-->

Using lists both on the query side and on the data side can make sense. On
either side it could be much more precise than the granularity, for example,
of the language collections, or than the use of the almost pointless "mul".

Mark

On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

> See my other note.
>
> As an indicator of intended audience a list can have meaning. But not:
>
> <p xml:lang="fr,en">Which language should be used to process this
> sentence?</p>
>
> Lists are sometimes appropriate. But sometimes they are not.
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:48 PM
> > To: Phillips, Addison; Leif Halvard Silli; John Cowan
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> >
> > > What does it say to tag something "fr,en" (for example)?
> >
> > That it's a French/English dictionary, or a DVD with French & English
> > tracks, or a translation where the original is provided as well, or...?
> >
> > I agree that in most cases a list isn't the right choice, but in some
> > cases I think its very interesting.  I don't think that we should
> > define a MUST list use, but I do think its appropriate to mention that
> > some people may want lists.
> >
> > - Shawn
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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We sometimes don&#39;t know exactly what the content is. If you are the author presumably you know, but if you aren&#39;t, you might not. So it does make sense to say:<br><br>
&lt;data xml:lang=&quot;xtg,xcg&quot;&gt;{this is some content that is either Cisalpine Gaulish or Transalpine Gaulish, or maybe a mixture and I can&#39;t figure out which.}&lt;/data&gt;<br><br>or even<br><br>&lt;data xml:lang=&quot;en,fr&quot;&gt;chat&lt;/data&gt; &lt;!--from language detection, we know that one of these is true, but we don&#39;t know more--&gt;<br>
<br>Using lists both on the query side and on the data side can make sense. On either side it could be much more precise than the granularity, for example, of the language collections, or than the use of the almost pointless &quot;mul&quot;.<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
See my other note.<br>
<br>
As an indicator of intended audience a list can have meaning. But not:<br>
<br>
&lt;p xml:lang=&quot;fr,en&quot;&gt;Which language should be used to process this sentence?&lt;/p&gt;<br>
<br>
Lists are sometimes appropriate. But sometimes they are not.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
</font><div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Shawn Steele [mailto:<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:48 PM<br>
&gt; To: Phillips, Addison; Leif Halvard Silli; John Cowan<br>
&gt; Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Ltru] I&#39;m really confused by chinese in 3066bis<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; What does it say to tag something &quot;fr,en&quot; (for example)?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; That it&#39;s a French/English dictionary, or a DVD with French &amp; English<br>
&gt; tracks, or a translation where the original is provided as well, or...?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I agree that in most cases a list isn&#39;t the right choice, but in some<br>
&gt; cases I think its very interesting. &nbsp;I don&#39;t think that we should<br>
&gt; define a MUST list use, but I do think its appropriate to mention that<br>
&gt; some people may want lists.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - Shawn<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Shawn Steele 2008-05-08 01.48:
> > What does it say to tag something "fr,en" (for example)?
>
> That it's a French/English dictionary, or a DVD with French & English tracks, or a translation where the original is provided as well, or...?
>
> I agree that in most cases a list isn't the right choice, but in some cases I think its very interesting.  I don't think that we should define a MUST list use, but I do think its appropriate to mention that some people may want lists.
>   

Thanks for the positive assertation!

I agree that it should not bee a MUST use list thing. Perhaps I don't 
use MUST, SHOULD etc correctly, but at least I did use RECOMMENDED with 
a purpose. :-)
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-08 02.01:
> As an indicator of intended audience a list can have meaning. But not:
>
> <p xml:lang="fr,en">Which language should be used to process this sentence?</p>
>
> Lists are sometimes appropriate. But sometimes they are not.
>   

It is better than 'mul' - so says at least the draft.

Again, I must make the point that there would often not be any 
processing problems if the list contains one encompassing language tag 
and one macrolanguage tag. On the contrary, it should often be 
prosessing advantages - as they would both effectively say the same thing.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]


> What you are describing has been described by the W3C
> Internationalization working group. We have tutorial material on the
> difference between the "content processing language" and the "language
> of the intended audience".
>
> A list of language tags can be useful for the later. For the former,
> most data formats (for example, XML) force you to specify a single
> language per "segment"---which is really what you want for processing.
> For audience, you might use a list. Although, frankly, most content
> serves a specific language audience. Not "all", must "most".

Could you explain these two notions a little more? I'm not sure I'm fully grasping the ideas.



Thanks
Peter
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Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:00:18 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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I'm thinking something like this:



4.6? Lists of Language Tags

In some applications a list of language tags is necessary, such as a user's language priority list, when multiple language apply equally to the same content, or when matching of older tags is expected.  Some example scenarios are:

* A user could specify "en, de, jp" for a language priority list as described in RFC4647bis
* A French/English, English/French dictionary could be tagged as "en, fr" to specify that it applies equally to French and English
* A DVD could be tagged as having audio content in "en, fr" and subtitles in "en, fr, es, jp".
* An English translation of a classical work could have the code "la, en".
* Mandarin content expected to interchange with existing systems could be tagged "cmn, zh".

Standards and protocols specifying this RFC MAY choose to allow lists of language tags.  Such standards and protocols MUST NOT be required to allow lists of language tags if not appropriate.

If a list of language tags is used it MUST contain well formed language tags and strongly RECOMMENDED that those tags are chosen using the Choice of Language Tag guidelines.

When a list of language tags is used, the protocols MUST specify whether or not an order is or is not implied or required for the list.

When a collection of content, such as a DVD with multiple tracks, can be tagged with multiple languages, the collection SHOULD be tagged with the appropriate language tags, and the individual pieces of content SHOULD be tagged with a single language tag from the list of the collection.

Recommendations for searching and matching of lists of language tags should be addressed in the successor to RFC 4647

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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, Peter Constable
	<petercon@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 17:17:44 -0700
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>
> Peter and I and a few others here at Microsoft chatted a bit, and our
> current thinking is that zh has to have a distinct meaning from cmn.
> Existing "zh" data isn't necessarily Mandarin, and requiring Mandarin
> to be tagged more generically would mean that one would never know if
> "zh" was generic Chinese or Mandarin.

+1

>
> We are also happy with the "cmn" and "yue" codes as currently drafted
> (no extlang).

+1

>
> My concerns regarding fallback are probably solvable by "lists".  If
> the user specifies "cmn" and also "zh" as their language, then I can
> find cmn or zh resources.  Similarly if a document is tagged as cmn and
> also zh, then it is more likely to be found by legacy software.

Agreed: this is why RFC 4647 is written in terms of Language Priority Lists.

>
> Which leads me to thinking of lists in general.  What I like about
> extlang was the association of "zh" with "cmn" for possible fallback
> purposes.  It seems that Karen has similar concerns about the text
> content of her media with the zh-cmn preference that lets her know it
> is Chinese as well as Mandarin.  If the content could be tagged with
> both zh & cmn (dueling tags ;-), then perhaps her needs are met.

This would be up to the specific format. If required to choose a SINGLE tag, she will still need to choose between 'zh' (possibly Mandarin, definitely Chinese, perhaps written since written forms tend to be indeterminate) and 'cmn' (definitely Mandarin). What RFC 4646bis needs to provide is good guidance for this case.

Implementations should think in terms of RFC 4647 rather than 4646 for most operations (since frequently tag-related operations have to do with matching).

>
> I think that there are many cases were lists are interesting.  In the
> Arabic cases, someone might want the acq,ar behavior for some resources
> because they were particularly interested in those users, but may also
> have more general ar resources for the rest of the Arabic speakers.
> (I'm shooting for the general idea, I don't know that much about the
> Arabic differences.)

It depends on the content and on the algorithm.

If you have "a??,ar" tags on all your Arabic content (where 'a??' is some local variety), a matching algorithm can find all content in any kind of Arabic. But this also means that it can fall back into the "wrong" variety if not handled carefully. For example, a request for "arb,ar" could return some content tagged "acq,ar" (because it is tagged with 'ar', after all). Probably this isn't desirable.

>
> Similarly I could easily see a French/English dictionary as needing to
> be tagged "fr,en".  I've seen books with the translations in columns
> next to the original text.  I could easily imagine looking in a library
> to find a DVD that has en & fr & es voice and additionally en, fr, es,
> de & jp subtitles.  The DVD should maybe be tagged with all the tags,
> but the tracks themselves would only need their specific tag.

This is the difference between audience and processing language.

Karen's problem, though (mine too: the Amazon Kindle is both a book and an audio device), is that the subtitles (text) don't necessarily match the soundtrack (audio). The subtitles on a Chinese DVD are almost certainly one of "zh-Hant" or "zh-Hans". The soundtracks are almost certainly 'cmn', 'yue' or something like that. Unless the subtitles are written in a colloquial form, you probably do NOT want to specify them as Mandarin. Books, vs. recordings of books, have the same problem. If you are a reader, Simplified vs. Traditional Chinese (zh-Han?) is most important to you. If you are listening to a book, the spoken language is primary.

>
> So I think that its worth a section in the draft to discuss language
> lists and their potential value for implementers, particularly those
> building other standards off of RFC 4646bis.  I don't think there
> should be MUSTard in that section, but I think it would be helpful to
> those trying to figure out how to apply RFC 4646bis to their specific
> needs.

We have one: it is called "RFC 4647"

>
> Summary:
> * We're OK with cmn & yue
> * zh and cmn have to have different meanings

They have never not had different meanings, the SHOULD in the section on choice notwithstanding.

Addison


Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.



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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> At the same time, I think the draft should specify that the recommended 
> use of macrolanguage tags is to allways used them in a list of language 
> tags.

I know of no mechanism for tagging a document with more than one language tag
simultaneously (as opposed to language A embedded, <span lang="fr">comme
par expres<span>, in language B).

-- 
Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML      John Cowan
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> Okay, but maybe see if 4647 doesn't already meet the need.
> I would hate to open up that document to editing unless strictly necessary.

I presumed that 4647 would have to be updated if for no other reason than to address the zh/cmn fallback matching questions.


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Shawn Steele 2008-05-07 17.54:
> > * politically, it may send the message that the encompassed language
> > is inferior in some way.
>
> Politically saying that Mandarin should be tagged Chinese (and therefore implying that Chinese is Mandarin), and then suggesting that Cantonese may want to fall back to Chinese is much worse than extlang ever was.
>   

I agree very much.

I therefore want to whisper about "a list of languages" format, again.

I think the thing is that macrolanguage tags for the most part should 
only be used for backward compatibility. Thus, if you want to cover all 
the languages that a macrolanguage tag (currently) covers, then you are 
RECOMMENDED to list all the languages which that tag covers. You are not 
RECOMMENDED to simply use the macrolanguage tag and hope that it works.

That should - I hope - cover what you said here:

Shawn Steele 2008-05-06 05.32:
> This sounds to me like "use zh instead of cmn because that's what was used historically."... unless its necessary to clearly distguish the macrolanguage from the dominant language variety.  If normally one tags the dominant language as the macrolanguage, how is it going to be possible to distinguish the macrolanguage from it?  Presumably cmn would clearly distinguish Mandarin, however zh can't be used to specify the Chinese macrolanguage because it is also used to mean Mandarin, in fact that's clearly the preferred meaning.
>
> So if I want to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage, how do I clearly tag it?
>   

Worldwide, or in a context?

If I understand what you meant, then I'd say you should list all the 
languages which the macrolanguage covers. So, if you have an Arabic 
resource which should be accessible to "components" which are spesificly 
Egyptian Arabic, Gulf Arabic, Saidi Arabic etc, then you should really 
tag that resource with all arabic subtags which that resource is meant 
for, in addition to the macrolanguage 'ar' tag.

This would be in line with what has been said here about never to take 
for granted any fallback from spesific language to macrolanguage.
-- 
leif halvard silli

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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John Cowan 2008-05-08 03.08:
> Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
>
> > At the same time, I think the draft should specify that the recommended 
> > use of macrolanguage tags is to allways used them in a list of language 
> > tags.
>
> I know of no mechanism for tagging a document with more than one language tag
> simultaneously (as opposed to language A embedded, <span lang="fr">comme
> par expres<span>, in language B).
>   

But as matter of fact, using the '_' (underscore) as separator 
character, it is possible to tag a HTML element in such a way that a) it 
validates in the W3 Validator, and b) it becomes usable as CSS 
seleector. The point is also not to do this "as often as possible". But 
only when needed.

<span lang="nb_no"></span>
span:lang(nb_no){color:blue;background:yellow}
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Randy Presuhn 2008-05-08 00.12:
> > From: "Leif Halvard Silli" <lhs@malform.no>
>   
> ...
> > But the draft 
> > does not seem to have a note were it, in general, recommends that 
> > applications permits "list of languges" to be used, and neither does it 
> > recommend a list format. [....]
>   
> I think that's really beyond our scope as a working group.
>
> What might be an appropriate syntax for a list of language tags
> will depend very much on the protocol or file format in which the
> list is use.  For example, an appropriate syntax in ASN.1 BER would
> be completely different from what might make sense in an XML-based
> syntax.
>   

OK. But the very thing that lists should be possible, should be possible 
to say clearer. As it is now, the possibility of lists is only mentioned 
en passant.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 04:17:06 +0200
From: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
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To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Two notes regarding this list thing.

1. Regarding processing versus audicence tagging:

    The thing is that in HTML/CSS, the audience languge (HTTP language) 
is (halfly) permitted and (hafly) implemented as fallback language if no 
processing language tags are specified inside the document.

It was recently asked in the HTML working group if taking _full_ note of 
the HTTP tagging could be harmfull. See this message and the short thrad 
that followed: 
<http://www.w3.org/mid/805D9CF4-8CB3-46A1-803A-2BBB28DEF663@iki.fi>

And in the context of tag lists, I now understand that it could be 
dangerous for the user agent to give full heed to the HTTP/Meta language 
tag.

But at least this also shows that there is not always a clearcut 
difference between audience and processing tagging. Also, if you need to 
tag the root element with a "list" (and isn't the root element sometimes 
used for audience tracking?), then that does not mean that one cannot 
tag the BODY element etc with a processing language tag.

Howeve, regarding the possible harmfullness, if we cannot specify list 
*formats*, then at least we could say something about listing the most 
spesific language first, so that the first item of the list more 
reliably can be usd as a fallback language in User Agents and by CSS if 
the very document itself is lacking proper tagging.


2. Regarding HTTP:

    There is as we konw no problem adding several extension to a HTML 
file, so that HTTP tags that file get tagged with e.g. both English, 
French, German. Typically, in Apache, such a file would look like 
'index.en.fr.de.html'

But what would have been great was if I could say this:

    'en', 'fr', 'de' == .extension

For instance, in Apache, now they have for instance this:

    AddLanguage zh-CN .zh-cn

Now, when RFX 4646bis goes into business, there are therefore millons of 
pages with the .zh-cn extension, I suppose. Many of those pages could be 
properly and backward compatibly tagged with the list tag 'cmn,zh', in 
one chunch. But changing all those tags is massive work. Therefore, what 
we need is to say that the exention  'zh-cn' means 'cmn,zh'. Like this:

    AddLanguage cmn,zh,zh-CN .zh-cn

Then it became simple to fix that problem. The same should be done for 
Norwegian. The '.no' extension could be remappe like this

    AddLanguage nb,no .no

The problem - at least in Apache - is that the abvoe seems not work. (At 
least I could not get it to work.) But at least, if we are clear about 
the need for 'list' etc, then we can ask Microsoft and Apache and othe 
web server vendors to make it simple to tag HTML documents with "lists".

So, the RFC could recognize the need for concanating lists intoi a 
single extension.


with regards
leif halvard silli


Phillips, Addison 2008-05-08 02.23:
> Okay, but maybe see if 4647 doesn't already meet the need. I would hate to open up that document to editing unless strictly necessary.
>
> What's more immediate would be thinking about text in the section on "choice" draft-14 or possibly incorporating some of the "language of content processing" vs. "language of audience" text into the document (via reference, perhaps??)
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:21 PM
> > To: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
> >
> > I think we mostly agree :) I'd like a mention in RFC4646, but obviously
> > 4647 would be more appropriate.
> >
> > I'll try to think of some text.
> >
> > - Shawn
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:20 PM
> > To: Shawn Steele; Peter Constable
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
> >
> > We're playing telegram here (laughing).
> >
> > In the response I just sent, I point out that lists are extensively
> > dealt with in RFC 4647, which is, after all, part of BCP 47.
> >
> > We can mention lists more in 4646 too. Putting on my editor hat, though,
> > do you have specific text to suggest? It is usually easier (and more
> > productive) to work directly on text.
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > Addison Phillips
> > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> >
> > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > It is an architecture.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:17 PM
> > > To: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> > > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to
> > "zh"
> > >
> > > My hope was that by mentioning a list and its possible uses, then
> > those
> > > standards which derive from RFC 4646bis may consider whether or not
> > > list-like behavior is interesting for them.  Lists certainly
> > shouldn't
> > > be required.  There are probably many other groups that could use
> > lists
> > > that aren't part of the W3C effort.
> > >
> > > - Shawn
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:59 PM
> > > To: Shawn Steele; Peter Constable
> > > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to
> > "zh"
> > >
> > > What you are describing has been described by the W3C
> > > Internationalization working group. We have tutorial material on the
> > > difference between the "content processing language" and the
> > "language
> > > of the intended audience".
> > >
> > > A list of language tags can be useful for the later. For the former,
> > > most data formats (for example, XML) force you to specify a single
> > > language per "segment"---which is really what you want for processing.
> > > For audience, you might use a list. Although, frankly, most content
> > > serves a specific language audience. Not "all", must "most".
> > >
> > > Addison
> > >
> > > Addison Phillips
> > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> > >
> > > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > > It is an architecture.
> > >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>   

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 19:26:37 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-08 03.26:
> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
>
>> I partake in the HTML WG, and it is possible to propose things there 
>> and other places if necessary.
>
> Then you should understand what Addison and others have been trying to 
> say, that the ability to specify multiple language tags -- in, for 
> example, HTTP Accept-Language -- falls within the scope of that 
> protocol, *not* within the scope of BCP 47.  Our scope is to specify 
> the characteristics of a language tag: what it looks like, what it 
> means (within limits), how to tell if two tags match.  We do not say 
> whether a field belonging to some protocol can contain a single 
> language tag or a list of them; that is quite rightly the job of the 
> designers of that protocol.


Doug, you allways pick the right parts of my message to comment on. ;-)

I agree with you. (Also a common.) But it can be good to have a picture 
of how it can be used.

And with BCP 47 properly mentioning "the list thing", there is backing 
for taking that issue up, in the relevant working groups and places.
-- 
regards
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> What is the erroneous comment regarding XML and HTML? For starters, it 
> validates in the W3 Validator, when it comes to HTML and XML. 

That's a bug in the validator.  In both XML and HTML, only a single BCP
47 language tag is permitted in the xml:lang (and lang) attributes.

-- 
Possession is said to be nine points of the law,                John Cowan
but that's not saying how many points the law might have.       cowan@ccil.org
        --Thomas A. Cowan (law professor and my father)
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 19:53:22 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli


> At the same time, I think the draft should specify that the recommended
> use of macrolanguage tags is to allways used them in a list of language
> tags.

-1: too restrictive. There may be scenarios in which just using "zh" or "ar=
" may be perfectly adequate. (E.g. the librarians wouldn't be well served b=
y that recommendation.


> And it seems meaningful to me that the draft should likewise always
> RECCOMMEND to that macrolanguage tags are used as part of a list
> consisting of the encompassing language (or languages) and the
> macrolangauge. Because, macrolanguage tags are like 'mul', only  more
> precise.

I could see something along that line being useful; I'm preparing some thou=
ghts in another msg.

(You're ready to jump to recommendations; I need time to think through scen=
arios more carefully first.)



> Can a list format be specified or RECOMMENDED in this group? In HTML
> and
> XML, the compatible way to set up a list of language seems to be to use
> the '_' (underscore) between each language tag. Thus, for instance, for
> the list 'Bokm=E5l-Norway, Norwegian-Norway', I could set up
> lang=3D"nb-NO_no-NO'.

That would *not* be acceptable in xml:lang; I'm not up on the rules for HTM=
L lang, but my guess is it wouldn't fly there also.

I think it's out of scope for our spec to specify what applications will do=
. Recommend certain approaches, maybe.



Peter
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Shawn Steele 2008-05-08 03.00:
> I'm thinking something like this:
>
> 4.6? Lists of Language Tags
>   
...
> When a list of language tags is used, the protocols MUST specify whether or not an order is or is not implied or required for the list.
>   

I think that a crucial thing to say in this RFC is whether the *first* 
tag in such a list MAY/SHOULD have a special status, or not. It would 
kind of reflect how the tag system is working if it was said that the 
first tag will often be expected to have the same degree of specificity 
- or a higher degree of specificity -  than then one(s) that follows. 
For instance, to list the 'mul' tag first would not be so helpful?

Protocols could be allowed to opt out of giving the first tag special 
heed, though.

As I said in a subsequent e-mail: In HTML, the HTTP language is used as 
fallback if HTML element(s) are lacking any  language tagging. So that 
is at least 3 protocols that must work together - HTML, CSS, HTTP. So, 
if the RFC lead the way a bit, then it would be good.


(Off topic land: In a META element in HTML, I am not aware of the 
possibility of adding lists, allthough it is supposed to reflect the 
HTTP header. (HTTP could/can read the serving langauge from the META 
element.) But perhaps it is possible to use several META elements in the 
same document - that would constitute a kind of list.)
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> From: Leif Halvard Silli [mailto:lhs@malform.no]


>     language subtag(s).  For mark-up languages, the recommended list
>     format for compatibility reasons uses the '_' (underscore)
> character
>     as separator.

B.A.D. !! What would you expect people to make of "arb_ar"? Looks like "Arabic (Argentina)" to me.


> I think what you are missing is a way to tag the same resource with two
> tags. We discussed it on w3-l18n allready
> <http://www.w3.org/mid/fv40ju$moh$1@ger.gmane.org>. And I think the
> compatible way is to use the underscore character as separator between
> each.

The list idea may have some merits. The underscore, however, is problematic, IMO. Certain making a general recommendation about syntax in 4646bis to use underscore as a delimiter in lists would be a non-starter, IMO.


> I think that 4646bis should RECOMMEND the use of several tags when it
> comes to macrolangue tags. Thus, when and if it comes to macrolanguage
> tags, one should *always* RECOMMEND using the macrolanguage as part of
> a
> list of the encompassed languages one has in mind.

Much too strong, IMO.



Peter
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Leif Halvard Silli" <lhs@malform.no>
> To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
...
> Howeve, regarding the possible harmfullness, if we cannot specify list 
> *formats*, then at least we could say something about listing the most 
> spesific language first, so that the first item of the list more 
> reliably can be usd as a fallback language in User Agents and by CSS if 
> the very document itself is lacking proper tagging.

In RFC 4647 I think we've said about as much as we can usefully say on this topic.
I don't think it would be helpful to repeat it.  Also, language tags and fallback have
applicability in situations other than the web content, so we should be wary of letting
that particular use case drive our thinking to the exclusion of other cases.

Randy

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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Leif Halvard Silli" <lhs@malform.no>
> To: "Shawn Steele" <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
...
> I think that a crucial thing to say in this RFC is whether the *first* 
> tag in such a list MAY/SHOULD have a special status, or not. 
...

I strongly disagree with the "this RFC" part of the comment.
Any text to that effect would belong in an update to RFC 4647.
We're currently working on an update to the documents
describing the syntax of tags and the procedures for managing
the registry.  The working group might ask permission to add a
new work item to its charter, but I suspect at least one of the co-chairs
would take a very dim view of additional work items.  :-)

Randy


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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 20:11:06 -0700
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Some systems use _ instead of - (en_US instead of en-US), so using _ to seperate a list is a really bad idea I think.

- Shawn

________________________________________
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli [lhs@malform.no]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:21 PM
To: John Cowan
Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis

John Cowan 2008-05-08 03.08:
> Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
>
> > At the same time, I think the draft should specify that the recommended
> > use of macrolanguage tags is to allways used them in a list of language
> > tags.
>
> I know of no mechanism for tagging a document with more than one language tag
> simultaneously (as opposed to language A embedded, <span lang="fr">comme
> par expres<span>, in language B).
>

But as matter of fact, using the '_' (underscore) as separator
character, it is possible to tag a HTML element in such a way that a) it
validates in the W3 Validator, and b) it becomes usable as CSS
seleector. The point is also not to do this "as often as possible". But
only when needed.

<span lang="nb_no"></span>
span:lang(nb_no){color:blue;background:yellow}
--
leif halvard silli
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 20:13:59 -0700
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Sorry, I should have provided the link.

This is most thoroughly discussed in the tutorial "Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML":

  http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/language-decl/

In the Internationalization Best Practices we find items that speak directly to this thread:

  http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20030510.102829377
  http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20040728.121358444
  http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20040728.121940236

The last item is Best Practice 10, whose description reads:

--
Where a document contains content aimed at speakers of more than one language, use Content-Language with a comma-separated list of language tags.
--

Addison

Addison Phillips
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:50 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
>
>
> > What you are describing has been described by the W3C
> > Internationalization working group. We have tutorial material on the
> > difference between the "content processing language" and the
> "language
> > of the intended audience".
> >
> > A list of language tags can be useful for the later. For the former,
> > most data formats (for example, XML) force you to specify a single
> > language per "segment"---which is really what you want for processing.
> > For audience, you might use a list. Although, frankly, most content
> > serves a specific language audience. Not "all", must "most".
>
> Could you explain these two notions a little more? I'm not sure I'm
> fully grasping the ideas.
>
>
>
> Thanks
> Peter
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Importance: low
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> > Nothing better to start with than the Cantonese Wikipedia article on
> > Cantonese:
> > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%B2%B5%E8%AA%9E>>.
> > Similarly,
> > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF>>,
> > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode>, and pretty much everything
> > else in the Cantonese Wikipedia.

> It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-yue"
> extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not the only
> ones who will need to be re-educated.

I don't know what else they could've chosen.  At the time they only had 4646 to look at, which would easily lead one to believe that zh-yue might be the better long-term option.

- Shawn
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 20:17:46 -0700
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HTML <meta> provides it (via Content-Language), but this is more of a hint about the intended audience than part of the document structure. The 'lang' attribute (de jure) does not provide for a list, nor should it, as it would break a wide variety of language selection functionality (such as CSS :lang or XSL).

XML definitely does not supply one. You could construct an element to contain a list of languages (each with their own element).

Addison

Addison Phillips
Chair -- W3C Internationalization WG

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> John Cowan
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:08 PM
> To: Leif Halvard Silli
> Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
>
> > At the same time, I think the draft should specify that the
> recommended
> > use of macrolanguage tags is to allways used them in a list of
> language
> > tags.
>
> I know of no mechanism for tagging a document with more than one
> language tag
> simultaneously (as opposed to language A embedded, <span
> lang="fr">comme
> par expres<span>, in language B).
>
> --
> Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML      John Cowan
> Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker       cowan@ccil.org
> saying "No information items inside".
> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
>         --Eve Maler
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
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Not necessarily. It only has to change if the algorithms change. If 4646bis provides a MAY or SHOULD allowing for fallback schemes to consider the macrolanguage, implementations of Filtering or Lookup are already given the necessary latitude.

Extlang, by contrast, would probably have required editing the Matching document. RFR is not broken if you don't have extlangs. If users use lists (already in 4647) or implementations supply lists on their behalf, then the algorithms are already complete.

Admittedly, some errata might be provided, perhaps in the form of an additional RFC, but that's not strictly necessary at first blush. But again, look through it first and see if you see where it's required.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:09 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
>
> > Okay, but maybe see if 4647 doesn't already meet the need.
> > I would hate to open up that document to editing unless strictly
> necessary.
>
> I presumed that 4647 would have to be updated if for no other reason
> than to address the zh/cmn fallback matching questions.
>

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Zh-yue is valid... and the only thing available until we finish our work. Doug's right it's a shame. But it is also our fault in many ways :-).

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Shawn Steele
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:15 PM
> To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> Importance: Low
>
> > > Nothing better to start with than the Cantonese Wikipedia article
> on
> > > Cantonese:
> > > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-
> yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%B2%B5%E8%AA%9E>>.
> > > Similarly,
> > > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-
> yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF>>,
> > > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode>, and pretty much
> everything
> > > else in the Cantonese Wikipedia.
>
> > It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-yue"
> > extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not the only
> > ones who will need to be re-educated.
>
> I don't know what else they could've chosen.  At the time they only had
> 4646 to look at, which would easily lead one to believe that zh-yue
> might be the better long-term option.
>
> - Shawn
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 20:26:58 2008
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>, Peter Constable
	<petercon@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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It seems to me that Filtering and Lookup works only if a language priority list contains the tags being looked for.  So if my content is "cmn" and my list only has "zh", then there's no hit.

So I guess I'm looking for wording saying that in some cases if you can't match using cmn-xx-xx-xx-xx that you could try again using zh-xx-xx-xx-xx.  Even then I'm not sure that's the best behavior.  cmn-HK may prefer to look in the order cmn-HK, zh-HK, cmn, zh.  That's really unclear....

- Shawn

________________________________________
From: Phillips, Addison [addison@amazon.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:20 PM
To: Shawn Steele; Peter Constable
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"

Not necessarily. It only has to change if the algorithms change. If 4646bis provides a MAY or SHOULD allowing for fallback schemes to consider the macrolanguage, implementations of Filtering or Lookup are already given the necessary latitude.

Extlang, by contrast, would probably have required editing the Matching document. RFR is not broken if you don't have extlangs. If users use lists (already in 4647) or implementations supply lists on their behalf, then the algorithms are already complete.

Admittedly, some errata might be provided, perhaps in the form of an additional RFC, but that's not strictly necessary at first blush. But again, look through it first and see if you see where it's required.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:09 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
>
> > Okay, but maybe see if 4647 doesn't already meet the need.
> > I would hate to open up that document to editing unless strictly
> necessary.
>
> I presumed that 4647 would have to be updated if for no other reason
> than to address the zh/cmn fallback matching questions.
>
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 20:32:25 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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John Cowan 2008-05-08 04.31:
> Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
>
> > What is the erroneous comment regarding XML and HTML? For starters, it 
> > validates in the W3 Validator, when it comes to HTML and XML. 
>
> That's a bug in the validator.  In both XML and HTML, only a single BCP
> 47 language tag is permitted in the xml:lang (and lang) attributes.
>   

Of course, currently that is so. And may be it is OK that way.

The more important issue is contexts where an audience has to make a choice.
-- 
leif halvard silli

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 20:41:24 2008
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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This is going to be a bit more thinking out loud on my part.


> From: Shawn Steele
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:45 PM


> My concerns regarding fallback are probably solvable by "lists".  If
> the user specifies "cmn" and also "zh" as their language, then I can
> find cmn or zh resources.  Similarly if a document is tagged as cmn and
> also zh, then it is more likely to be found by legacy software.
>
> Which leads me to thinking of lists in general...

> Similarly I could easily see a French/English dictionary as needing to
> be tagged "fr,en"...

I'm wondering if we don't need to separate different purposes for having lists. I see three distinct cases:

1. declaring a fallback / user-preference list: this is a (possibly weighted) list of potentially-unrelated varieties, and the list is an expression of preference, not a declaration about actual content/resources

2. declaring that content/resources are mixed -- that is, they pertain to multiple, distinct varieties

3. declaring a single variety for content/resources at multiple levels of specificity


With others seeding the "list" idea, I'm starting to think our problems with zh and similar macro-languages could be solved by a combination of #1 and #3: if a user specifies that they will accept content in zh or cmn, then they will get results that were tagged either way; and if content is tagged to declare it as zh but also as cmn, then users asking for either would get it.

Returning to the start of this thread, this is basically what I suggested as the solution those in the "librarian" camp would take when they want to differentiate Mandarin and Cantonese: they'd start declaring their information objects as "zh,cmn" or "zh,yue", and suggest that users may want query for "zh" in addition to either "cmn" or "yue" if they want to catch objects that haven't yet had their metadata updated. Of course, the relevance-weighting for "zh" should probably be a lot higher if searching for "cmn" than if searching for "yue".

Addison mentioned (in a later msg) a potential issue:

> For example, a request for "arb,ar" could return some content
> tagged "acq,ar" (because it is tagged with 'ar', after all).
> Probably this isn't desirable.

This requires some added complexity in matching, but there is a potential solution: if you note that there's a generic/specific tag pair in the request and in the content, with the generics matching, then you must compare the specific values, not the matching generic value, to determine a resource match.


Now, what's this do for the "terminologist" camp?

Well, they can continue to use "zh" for Mandarin resources as long as Mandarin is all they care about. If they need to interop with "librarian" types who have started to differentiate, then fallback to "zh" could be set up on the serving side of the interaction. When it make sense -- perhaps only if and when they start to deal with Cantonese as well as Mandarin resources -- they would probably want to transition to using "cmn" for Mandarin, relying again on fallback, this time from "zh" to "cmn". (Of course, how server-side fallback should interact with user-specified fallback preferences would need to be considered.) I don't know how well this brief sketch covers all the relevant scenarios, but it's a starting point / strawman to work from.


So, part of this involves being able to declare multiple values with differing degrees of specificity on a given information object (whether a span of content to entire documents). Again, note that I am not mixing this with declaring "mul" kinds of combinations, such as "en,fr". (Leif compared pairs like "no,nb" to "mul", but I think they are not really comparable.) Of course, the big issue with this is that implementing it belongs to the application. That absolutely is appropriate, and anything RFC4646bis might say on this would need to be sufficiently circumspect: "SHOULD" would be too strong; "zh" may continue to be perfectly reasonable for some applications (indeed, MARC would insist on it). But the question we can consider is if this is a reasonable suggestion to present to applications in general, or if we can see up front that it would be so problematic in some situations as to have left some users without acceptable options or guidance for "zh" and similar cases.



Peter


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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:20 PM


> In the response I just sent, I point out that lists are extensively
> dealt with in RFC 4647, which is, after all, part of BCP 47.

But only one kind of list: in the three cases I mentioned in another msg I just sent, repeated below, Language Priority Lists represent case #1. "mul" is case #2. But there is a third potential kind of list, #3:

1. declaring a fallback / user-preference list: this is a (possibly weighted) list of potentially-unrelated varieties, and the list is an expression of preference, not a declaration about actual content/resources

2. declaring that content/resources are mixed -- that is, they pertain to multiple, distinct varieties

3. declaring a single variety for content/resources at multiple levels of specificity



Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-08 05.17:
> HTML <meta> provides it (via Content-Language), but this is more of a hint about the intended audience than part of the document structure. 

I never thought about that I could use a list in the META element before.

> The 'lang' attribute (de jure) does not provide for a list [...].
>   
It was a bad idea, I suppose. It really was audience tagging I was after.


John Cowan wrote:

> I know of no mechanism for tagging a document with more than one
> language tag simultaneously (as opposed to language A embedded, <span
> lang="fr">comme  par expres<span>, in language B).


In Firefox (but not Webkit), if you e.g. have this meta tag

    <meta http-equiv="Content-Language" content="ua, ru, no" >

and no further language tagging of the very HTML structure, then all 
these CSS selectors will work simultaneously: element:lang(ua), 
element:lang(ru), element:lang(no).

I wish that only the first language tag was used, and that it worked 
more or less cross browser.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 21:10:42 -0700
Thread-Topic: xml:lang syntax
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I'm trying to understand what XML does or does not allow as attribute value=
s for xml:lang. The text of XML 1.1 (2nd Edn), section 2.12 states:

"The values of the attribute are language identifiers as defined by [IETF R=
FC 3066]<http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml11-20060816/#RFC1766>, Tags for t=
he Identification of Languages, or its successor; in addition, the empty st=
ring may be specified."

It's not completely clear to me from this if xml:lang=3D"en,fr" is acceptab=
le. I think a strict reading of 2.12 indicates that that is not well-formed=
: "en,fr" is not a language identifier defined by RFC 3066 or successors.



Peter

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<p class=3DMsoNormal>I&#8217;m trying to understand what XML does or does n=
ot
allow as attribute values for xml:lang. The text of XML 1.1 (2<sup>nd</sup>
Edn), section 2.12 states:<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;<span lang=3DEN style=3D'font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>The values of the attribute are language identifiers as define=
d by
<a href=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml11-20060816/#RFC1766">[IETF RFC=
 3066]</a>,
<cite><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Tags for the
Identification of Languages</span></cite>, or its successor; in addition, t=
he
empty string may be specified.</span>&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>It&#8217;s not completely clear to me from this if xml=
:lang=3D&#8221;en,fr&#8221;
is acceptable. I think a strict reading of 2.12 indicates that that is not
well-formed: &#8220;en,fr&#8221; is not a language identifier defined by RF=
C
3066 or successors.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Peter<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May  7 21:19:51 2008
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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Peter Constable scripsit:

> "The values of the attribute are language identifiers as defined by
> [IETF RFC 3066]<http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml11-20060816/#RFC1766>,
> Tags for the Identification of Languages, or its successor; in addition,
> the empty string may be specified."

That is meant to mean that the value of each xml:lang attribute is a
single language tag.

> It's not completely clear to me from this if xml:lang="en,fr"
> is acceptable.

It isn't.

-- 
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org   ccil.org/~cowan
Dievas dave dantis; Dievas duos duonos          --Lithuanian proverb
Deus dedit dentes; deus dabit panem             --Latin version thereof
Deity donated dentition;
  deity'll donate doughnuts                     --English version by Muke Tever
God gave gums; God'll give granary              --Version by Mat McVeagh
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> > %%
> > Type: grandfathered
> > Tag: i-default
> > Description: Default Language
> > Added: 1998-03-10
> > %%
> 
> I oppose messing around with this.  It exists because of RFC 2277, which 
> specified its use for a very limited set of circumstances.  Trying to 
> normalize this one away might be more messy than the results would 
> justify.

I agree.  i-default is a very special case that should be left alone;
it's a protocol element.

> > %%
> > Type: grandfathered
> > Tag: i-mingo
> > Description: Mingo
> > Added: 1997-09-19
> > %%
> 
> I really don't understand why this is not in ISO 639-3 to begin with.

Because it's almost certainly (we can't be sure, as it's dead) mutually
intelligible with Seneca; the Mingo are descended from Seneca that became
politically separated from the Seneca Nation two or more centuries ago.
If we want to deprecate it, we should replace it with see-mingo.

> I see no point in doing anything with this.  "zh-min" was apparently 
> proposed and registered under the faulty assumption that it was 
> necessary as a basis for "zh-min-nan", which was the tag really wanted. 
> Any content tagged "zh-min", and I doubt there is any although you never 
> know, is almost certainly mistagged anyway, and might not even be Min 
> Nan.

I agree.  It's garbage, and it's my fault.

-- 
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan
Female celebrity stalker, on a hot morning in Cairo:
"Imagine, Colonel Lawrence, ninety-two already!"
El Auruns's reply:  "Many happy returns of the day!"
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> Where a document contains content aimed at speakers of more than
> one language, use Content-Language with a comma-separated list of
> language tags.

Huh.  I didn't know that was legal.  Shows what I know about HTTP (viz. a lot about etags and timestamps,
not much about anything else).

-- 
Man has no body distinct from his soul,                 John Cowan
for that called body is a portion of the soul           cowan@ccil.org
discerned by the five senses,                           http://www.ccil.org
the chief inlets of the soul in this age.  --William Blake
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-yue" 
> extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not the only 
> ones who will need to be re-educated.

It's valid, it remains valid.

-- 
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies!    John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,     http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau,
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.            -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> But as matter of fact, using the '_' (underscore) as separator 
> character, it is possible to tag a HTML element in such a way that a) it 
> validates in the W3 Validator, and b) it becomes usable as CSS 
> seleector. The point is also not to do this "as often as possible". But 
> only when needed.

The W3C Validator doesn't seem to care if the language attribute value is
'+++'.  It certainly doesn't enforce the BCP 47 rules.

-- 
That you can cover for the plentiful            John Cowan
and often gaping errors, misconstruals,         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
and disinformation in your posts                cowan@ccil.org
through sheer volume -- that is another
misconception.  --Mike to Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Peter Constable scripsit:

> Returning to the start of this thread, this is basically what
> I suggested as the solution those in the "librarian" camp would
> take when they want to differentiate Mandarin and Cantonese: they'd
> start declaring their information objects as "zh,cmn" or "zh,yue",
> and suggest that users may want query for "zh" in addition to either
> "cmn" or "yue" if they want to catch objects that haven't yet had their
> metadata updated. Of course, the relevance-weighting for "zh" should
> probably be a lot higher if searching for "cmn" than if searching for
> "yue".

That could be done not by changing the tagging, but by changing the
Web server's notion of what "zh" means (configurably, of course, not
unconditionally) so that requests for "zh" resources will find both "zh"
ones and "cmn" ones, and perhaps vice versa, depending on the needs of
the site.

-- 
One Word to write them all,             John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
  One Access to find them,              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
One Excel to count them all,
  And thus to Windows bind them.                --Mike Champion
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> cel-gaulish
> 
> it looks like this was intended to be what the ethnologue calls Brythonic:

Not at all.  Brythonic is a child of Insular, which is a sib
of Continental.  Ethnologue does not list any Continental
Celtic languages, because they are all long extinct.  See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#Divisions for details:
some people disagree with this subdivision, and consider P-Celtic
vs. Q-Celtic a more important distinction than Continental vs. Insular.

The sub-registrar for ancient languages in 639-3 is Linguist List;
we could ask them what they recommend be done.  (For example, Gaulish
could become a macrolanguage.)

> So we would need a new code, or ask ISO to add one. (Having codes for the
> families in the Ethnologue would be pretty handy; many exist, but many
> don't.)

That's the domain of ISO 639-5.

-- 
Eric Raymond is the Margaret Mead               John Cowan
of the Open Source movement.                    cowan@ccil.org
        --Bruce Perens,                         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
          some years ago
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Perhaps it doesn't check beyond whether its CDATA? (I've suspected for a while that might be typical.)


Peter


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> John Cowan
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:53 PM
> To: Leif Halvard Silli
> Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
>
> > But as matter of fact, using the '_' (underscore) as separator
> > character, it is possible to tag a HTML element in such a way that a)
> it
> > validates in the W3 Validator, and b) it becomes usable as CSS
> > seleector. The point is also not to do this "as often as possible".
> But
> > only when needed.
>
> The W3C Validator doesn't seem to care if the language attribute value
> is
> '+++'.  It certainly doesn't enforce the BCP 47 rules.
>
> --
> That you can cover for the plentiful            John Cowan
> and often gaping errors, misconstruals,
> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> and disinformation in your posts                cowan@ccil.org
> through sheer volume -- that is another
> misconception.  --Mike to Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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>
> Peter Constable scripsit:
>
> > Returning to the start of this thread, this is basically what
> > I suggested as the solution those in the "librarian" camp would
> > take when they want to differentiate Mandarin and Cantonese: they'd
> > start declaring their information objects as "zh,cmn" or "zh,yue",
> > and suggest that users may want query for "zh" in addition to either
> > "cmn" or "yue" if they want to catch objects that haven't yet had
> their
> > metadata updated. Of course, the relevance-weighting for "zh" should
> > probably be a lot higher if searching for "cmn" than if searching for
> > "yue".
>
> That could be done not by changing the tagging, but by changing the
> Web server's notion of what "zh" means (configurably, of course, not
> unconditionally) so that requests for "zh" resources will find both
> "zh"
> ones and "cmn" ones, and perhaps vice versa, depending on the needs of
> the site.
>

Yes. And I would stipulate the "depending on the needs of the site" (or application). Note that Lookup provides for this, at least somewhat, by allowing for customized defaulting rules. And we *do* have a Macrolanguage field in the registry, presumably for the use of implementations that have need of it.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Peter Constable 2008-05-08 05.41:
> > From: Shawn Steele, Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:45 PM
> > My concerns regarding fallback are probably solvable by "lists". [...]
>   =

> I'm wondering if we don't need to separate different purposes for having =
lists. I see three distinct cases:
>
> 1. declaring a fallback / user-preference list: [...] a (possibly weighte=
d) list =

>   =

> 2. declaring that content/resources are mixed  [...]
>   =


Could usecase 2. include the use of 'mul' as one of the tags? E.g. =

'en,fr,mul'? For instance, some might be especially interested in =

multlingual material? This would also make the use of 'mul' quite =

similar in logic to the use of macrolanguage tags. See below.

> 3. declaring a single variety for content/resources at multiple levels of=
 specificity
>
> With others seeding the "list" idea, I'm starting to think our problems w=
ith zh and similar macro-languages could be solved by a combination of #1 a=
nd #3: if a user specifies that they will accept content in zh or cmn, then=
 they will get results that were tagged either way; and if content is tagge=
d to declare it as zh but also as cmn, then users asking for either would g=
et it.  [...]
>   =


The above is the Norwegian situation ... on the web.

> Addison mentioned (in a later msg) a potential issue:
>
> > For example, a request for "arb,ar" could return some content
> > tagged "acq,ar" (because it is tagged with 'ar', after all).
> > Probably this isn't desirable.
>   =

> This requires some added complexity in matching, but there is a potential=
 solution: if you note that there's a generic/specific tag pair

What about "cmn,yue,zh"? I suppose then both "cmn" and "yue" would then =

have the same relative value?

The pair thing Should work fine for e.g. Norwegian,Bokm=E5l (nb,no), when =

I only want to reach Norwegian speaking people.

>  in the request and in the content, with the generics matching, then you =
must compare the specific values, not the matching generic value, to determ=
ine a resource match.
>   =


It could sound as if you think that the order should not matter? 'no,nn' =

and 'nn,no'?

> Now, what's this do for the "terminologist" camp?
>   =

[...]
> So, part of this involves being able to declare multiple values with diff=
ering degrees of specificity on a given information object (whether a span =
of content to entire documents). Again, note that I am not mixing this with=
 declaring "mul" kinds of combinations, such as "en,fr". (Leif compared pai=
rs like "no,nb" to "mul", but I think they are not really comparable.)

What I actually compared was not "no,nb" to "mul"  but "no" to "mul" and =

"zh" to "mul".  'mul' =3D all languges are possible. 'zh' =3D all chinese =

languages possible. I was intrigued by the recomendation to use a list =

instead of 'mul', while at the same time there were no recommendation to =

use a list instead of macrolanguage tags - when the purpose of using the =

macrolanguage tag was to encompass all the encompassed languages. (There =

is a passage, in section 4.1, which advices against "subtags for =

language collections", but that passages is not linked to the spesific =

issue of macrolanguages.)

Also, if we only list "fr,en" then one might not know *why* it is tagged =

that way. But if one "pair" them with the "mul" tag - 'fr,en,mul' - then =

one should know better why.  For a resource in Chinese, were the content =

is mixed, then one could use 'spesific|generic|mul' - 'cmn,yue,zh,mul' - =

to signify that it is multilingual Chinese of those languages. To =

exclude the "mul" tag - "cmn,yue,zh" - means that the tags say nothing =

about whether the content is multilingual.
-- =

leif halvard silli

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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John Cowan 2008-05-08 06.16:
> Peter Constable scripsit:
>
> > "The values of the attribute are language identifiers as defined by
> > [IETF RFC 3066]<http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml11-20060816/#RFC1766>,
> > Tags for the Identification of Languages, or its successor; in addition,
> > the empty string may be specified."
>
> That is meant to mean that the value of each xml:lang attribute is a
> single language tag.
>   

In the W3 L18N list I aired - without response [*] - the option of 
having a single language tag that covered several languages. Something 
like xml:lang="mul-en-fr", to say that it was multilingual English and 
French. It ought not no be necessary to be very spesific about script 
and/or geography etc in such a tag. It would at least have to work a bit 
differently from th eother tags.

[*] (Though I got support from some for the very idea about specifying 
several languages for one element.)

> > It's not completely clear to me from this if xml:lang="en,fr"
> > is acceptable.
>
> It isn't.
>   

This means that we can say xml:lang="mul" and encompass all the 
langugeas of the world. But not any two or more languages. With 
xml:lang="mul-en-fr" one coud be more spesific.
-- 
leif halvard sillli

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-08 07.13:
> > Peter Constable scripsit:
>   
> >> they'd start declaring their information objects as "zh,cmn" or
> >> "zh,yue", and suggest that users may want query for "zh" in
> >> addition to either "cmn" or "yue" if they want to catch objects
> >> that haven't yet had their metadata updated. [...]
> >
> > That could be done not by changing the tagging, but by changing the
> > Web server's notion of what "zh" means  [...]
>
> Yes. And I would stipulate the "depending on the needs of the site" (or application).  [...]
>   

Web servers seems to link the tag(s) to a spesific file exensions. Thus 
web servers has double tagging: a file extension tag, and a the real 
language tag. Often those file extensions look the same as the language tag.

It is those file extensions that it should be possible to twist, to say 
that '.zh' now means not 'zh' anymore but 'cmn,zh'. That, rather than to 
say that the http tag now stands for two language tags.

Of course, the principle of "double tagging" could be used outside the 
web server scope.
-- 
leif halvard silli




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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 23:26:30 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Btw, in relation to "lists" for declaring dual language values on a given bit of content, and specifically the #3 case in which the "dual" values are the generic/specific pair for the "same" thing (to the extent that e.g. "zh" is the "same" as "yue" or as "nan" etc.), it occurs to me that there is one way we could be completely certain about being able to express the generic/specific "list" in a way that all BCP 47 apps could support: extlang!

;-)
Peter



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Peter Constable
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:48 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:20 PM
>
>
> > In the response I just sent, I point out that lists are extensively
> > dealt with in RFC 4647, which is, after all, part of BCP 47.
>
> But only one kind of list: in the three cases I mentioned in another
> msg I just sent, repeated below, Language Priority Lists represent case
> #1. "mul" is case #2. But there is a third potential kind of list, #3:
>
> 1. declaring a fallback / user-preference list: this is a (possibly
> weighted) list of potentially-unrelated varieties, and the list is an
> expression of preference, not a declaration about actual
> content/resources
>
> 2. declaring that content/resources are mixed -- that is, they pertain
> to multiple, distinct varieties
>
> 3. declaring a single variety for content/resources at multiple levels
> of specificity
>
>
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Peter Constable 2008-05-08 07.07:
> Perhaps it doesn't check beyond whether its CDATA? (I've suspected for a while that might be typical.)
>
> > John Cowan Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:53 PM
>   
> > Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
> > > But as matter of fact, using the '_' (underscore) as separator
>   
> > The W3C Validator doesn't seem to care if the language attribute value
> > is '+++'.  It certainly doesn't enforce the BCP 47 rules.
>   

It do not think it treats it as CDATA. In my own testing, it only 
accepted the underscore character. I could at least  not get the '+' to 
validate in any way.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-08 06.16:
> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
>
> > In Firefox (but not Webkit), if you e.g. have this meta tag
> >
> >     <meta http-equiv="Content-Language" content="ua, ru, no" >
> >
> > and no further language tagging of the very HTML structure, then all 
> > these CSS selectors will work simultaneously: element:lang(ua), 
> > element:lang(ru), element:lang(no).
> >
> > I wish that only the first language tag was used, and that it worked 
> > more or less cross browser.
>
> Please take this to the W3C, or the browser makers.  They may be able to 
> help.  We cannot; the subject is out of our scope. [...]
>   

What I said there was related to the "list" issue debated here now. 
Please read it in that context. I was giving one of several examples for 
why it might be a good idea to recommend a certain "list order", in 
order that it becomes simpler to take the message to W3C, browser 
makers, Wikipedia, whatever.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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John wrote:

> It's too big a job, and "known fallback relationships" depend
> on too many things, not just language relatedness.
>

Not for just the handful of subtags that are causing problems where there
has been historical usage of other subtags.  I am not proposing that we
create a fallback mechanism for fr to br etc.  That sort of thing is way
beyond the scope/knowledge realm of this WG. However, where there is
ambiguity in tagging I feel it is within scope to try to establish a
mechanism for dealing with such cases.  In essence we are talking about
zh/cmn but I wanted to, perhaps, establish a mechanism where such cases as
de could also benefit.

Best

debbie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]
> Sent: 07 May 2008 14:19
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> Debbie Garside scripsit:
>
> > But nothing is set in stone wrt extlang :-)  or is it?
>
> The decisions about which languages are macrolanguages and
> which languages are encompassed by them are made by 639-3/RA,
> and are in stone as far as we are concerned.  De is not a
> macrolanguage and that's that.
>
> The only thing we can change is our syntax, and that is set
> in concrete, which is drying fast.
>
> > I missed the whole extlang debate so I don't really know all the
> > reasons why it was dismissed.  However, from what I can see
> we need to
> > facilitate fallback matching for *some* subtags that have ISO 639-3
> > codes but have also, historically, predominantly used
> another subtag.
> > Maybe we should concentrate on this aspect rather than extlang and
> > macrolanguages specifically.  You might find that by doing
> so we solve all the problems.
> > But it needs to be done with an open mind and I don't see
> the need to
> > be restrictive to facilitating fallback *just* for
> macrolanguages.  We
> > could include a "Fallback" field and devise a registration
> procedure
> > to incorporate information with regard to "known fallback
> > relationships" that would encompass a good deal of this.  I see it
> > working along similar lines as suppress script (as and when info
> > becomes available). As I say, I  missed pretty much the
> whole debate on this so maybe this has already been covered.
>
> It's too big a job, and "known fallback relationships" depend
> on too many things, not just language relatedness.
>
> --
> The Imperials are decadent, 300 pound   John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
> free-range chickens (except they have   http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> teeth, arms instead of wings, and
> dinosaurlike tails).                        --Elyse Grasso
>
>
>
>




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Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Thanks

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer' [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]
> Sent: 07 May 2008 14:48
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 10:25:11AM +0100,  Debbie Garside
> <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote  a message of 55 lines which said:
>
> > I missed the whole extlang debate so I don't really know all the
> > reasons why it was dismissed.
>
> [My personal summary]
>
> * stability issues (what if a "standalone" language becomes
> encompassed or the opposite?).
>
> * "dummy" right truncation, as allowed by extlangs, is not a
> good idea for macrolanguages, anyway (two encompassed
> languages of the same macrolanguage may not be mutually intelligible).
>
> * politically, it may send the message that the encompassed
> language is inferior in some way.
>
> As Randy said here, you can also make a similar list of the
> good reasons to keep extlangs. The case is really a 50-50 but
> we have to decide on one solution.
>
> > But it needs to be done with an open mind and I don't see
> the need to
> > be restrictive to facilitating fallback *just* for macrolanguages.
>
> The idea was not to facilitate fallback (a complicated thing,
> which depend a lot of non-linguistical data), just to use an
> information that ISO 639-3 gives us (macrolanguages).
>
> In the current 4646bis model, "smart" fallback is not handled
> (because it requires a lot of outside information).
>
> > We could include a "Fallback" field and devise a registration
> > procedure to incorporate information with regard to "known fallback
> > relationships" that would encompass a good deal of this.
>
> This is a huge work, compared to with Suppress-Script
> discussions is peanuts :-)
>
> To mention again typical examples (my examples, criticisms welcome):
>
> "fr" (french) is a good fallback for "br" (breton), not
> because the two languages are related (they are quite
> distinct) but because Brittany is in France and, since the
> 19th century, there are no longer breton speakers that do not
> speak french.
>
> "fi" (finnish) is probably a good fallback for "xx-FI"
> because finnish is the most common language in Finland so
> someone who requests "sv-FI"
> can probably read finnish. But "fi" is not a good fallback for "sv"
> alone.
>
> In writing, "arb" is a good fallback for every encompassed
> language of the macrolanguage "ar" (arabic). But it is not
> true in spoken form.
>
> These examples give an idea of the amount of information required.
>
>
>
>
>
>




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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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 Doug wrote:

> It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-yue"
> extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not
> the only ones who will need to be re-educated.

It is hardly surprising that wikipedia adopted extlang as the "noise" coming
out of this WG for the past few years has been that the syntax was
absolutely stable!

Best

Debbie



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: 08 May 2008 03:32
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Mark Davis <mark dot davis at icu dash project dot org> wrote:
>
> > Nothing better to start with than the Cantonese Wikipedia article on
> > Cantonese:
> >
> <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-yue.wikipedia.o
> rg/wiki/%E7%B2%B5%E8%AA%9E>>.
> > Similarly,
> >
> <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> > %E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF>>,
> <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode>, and
> > pretty much everything else in the Cantonese Wikipedia.
>
> It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-yue"
> extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not
> the only ones who will need to be re-educated.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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And so, the discussion comes full circle. :-)

This is the very reason why extlang was introduced in the first place (I
think).

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: 08 May 2008 07:27
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> Btw, in relation to "lists" for declaring dual language
> values on a given bit of content, and specifically the #3
> case in which the "dual" values are the generic/specific pair
> for the "same" thing (to the extent that e.g. "zh" is the
> "same" as "yue" or as "nan" etc.), it occurs to me that there
> is one way we could be completely certain about being able to
> express the generic/specific "list" in a way that all BCP 47
> apps could support: extlang!
>
> ;-)
> Peter
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf
> > Of Peter Constable
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:48 PM
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a
> solution to "zh"
> >
> > > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:20 PM
> >
> >
> > > In the response I just sent, I point out that lists are
> extensively
> > > dealt with in RFC 4647, which is, after all, part of BCP 47.
> >
> > But only one kind of list: in the three cases I mentioned
> in another
> > msg I just sent, repeated below, Language Priority Lists represent
> > case #1. "mul" is case #2. But there is a third potential
> kind of list, #3:
> >
> > 1. declaring a fallback / user-preference list: this is a (possibly
> > weighted) list of potentially-unrelated varieties, and the
> list is an
> > expression of preference, not a declaration about actual
> > content/resources
> >
> > 2. declaring that content/resources are mixed -- that is,
> they pertain
> > to multiple, distinct varieties
> >
> > 3. declaring a single variety for content/resources at
> multiple levels
> > of specificity
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
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> Ltru@ietf.org
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>
>
>
>




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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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> From: Leif Halvard Silli [mailto:lhs@malform.no]


> This means that we can say xml:lang="mul" and encompass all the
> langugeas of the world. But not any two or more languages. With
> xml:lang="mul-en-fr" one coud be more spesific.

Except that, as I suspected, it's not acceptable XML.


Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Doug wrote:

> Where I become uncomfortable is with the idea that the rest
> of the world will accept this research and judgment.  You see
> how often people want to second-guess the work of SIL and the
> ISO MAs.

Firstly, linguistics is not an exact science and the old adage of you can
please some of the people some of the time etc. applies here.  I have not
got a problem with SIL, ISO or anyone else (and I know that you haven't
either).

Secondly, it is not a question of accepting research and judgement, it is a
question of standardization.  We are in the business of standardization and
sometimes tough decisions have to be taken for stability reasons.  Usually,
when we have problems with an ISO standard we go back to ISO and ask them to
sort it.  However. I think the decisions that Peter and Gary made with
regard to Macrolanguages were correct (and possibly the only decisions that
could have been made without deprecating all the macrolanguage codes - not a
good idea considering the extent of their historical usage).

So there is no scope for ISO to assist here.  But we cannot just sit on the
fence to the detriment of the work that we have spent the last few years
developing.  Let's put this into perspective.  We are talking about the
codes for some of the most spoken languages in the world here and we need to
get it right.

I think that where this especially goes awry is with the adjective
"dominant" (as pointed out by Shawn or Leif earlier) and would propose that
we change the description  to "most prolific" or some such.  I also think
that the RFC can be worded such that, however this information is
incorporated, it is deemed as guidance for backward compatibility purposes
and not a political statement about the languages themselves.

Just to be clear on my position, I do not, as stated previously, think,
under any circumstances, that 'ar' should be used in place of 'arb'.  All
that is required within the LSR is an indicator that 'ar' is the container
for several arabic languages and where it has been used historically the
related language code 'arb' is considered the most prolific of those
contained langauges for matching purposes.

I still think adding ;1 to the "dominant" language within the Macrolanguage
field would work.  Anyone able to tell me why it wouldn't?

best

Debbie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: 08 May 2008 03:27
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft dot com> wrote:
>
> > I will remind people that last November I sent an
> attachment with my
> > analysis of the macro-language entries in ISO 639-3, attached again
> > here for convenience, in which I take a stab at
> categorizing according
> > to degree of usage in ICTs and whether there is a single, dominant
> > language. Here is group #2:
> >
> > 2. Macrolanguage ID used in ICT, and there is a single, dominant
> > variety
> > ara     (E15: arb dominant) = ar
> > kok     (E14: knn dominant)
> > msa     (E15: mly dominant) = ms
> > swa     (E15: swh dominant) = sw (CLDR)
> > uzb     (E15: uzn dominant) = uz
> > zho     (E14: collection) = zh
> >        cmn
> > ...
>
> Peter, I personally am comfortable with your research and
> judgment as to these cases.  I'm also comfortable with the
> implication that the other 45-odd macrolanguages do not, by
> implication, have a dominant language such that the same
> rules would apply.
>
> Where I become uncomfortable is with the idea that the rest
> of the world will accept this research and judgment.  You see
> how often people want to second-guess the work of SIL and the
> ISO MAs.  And you see the ongoing controversy over
> Suppress-Script, which as Stéphane points out is much more
> cut-and-dried than this.
>
> I think if we (LTRU) head down this path of specifying "dominant"
> languages in any way more prescriptive than the wording we
> already have in draft-4646bis, we will be asking for endless
> controversy and accusations and haranguing.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>





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That was caught - see my later message.

On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:05 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> > cel-gaulish
> >
> > it looks like this was intended to be what the ethnologue calls
> Brythonic:
>
> Not at all.  Brythonic is a child of Insular, which is a sib
> of Continental.  Ethnologue does not list any Continental
> Celtic languages, because they are all long extinct.  See
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#Divisions for details:
> some people disagree with this subdivision, and consider P-Celtic
> vs. Q-Celtic a more important distinction than Continental vs. Insular.
>
> The sub-registrar for ancient languages in 639-3 is Linguist List;
> we could ask them what they recommend be done.  (For example, Gaulish
> could become a macrolanguage.)
>
> > So we would need a new code, or ask ISO to add one. (Having codes for
> the
> > families in the Ethnologue would be pretty handy; many exist, but many
> > don't.)
>
> That's the domain of ISO 639-5.
>
> --
> Eric Raymond is the Margaret Mead               John Cowan
> of the Open Source movement.                    cowan@ccil.org
>        --Bruce Perens,                         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan<http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan>
>          some years ago
>



-- 
Mark

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That was caught - see my later message.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:05 PM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Mark Davis scripsit:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; cel-gaulish<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; it looks like this was intended to be what the ethnologue calls Brythonic:<br>
<br>
</div>Not at all. &nbsp;Brythonic is a child of Insular, which is a sib<br>
of Continental. &nbsp;Ethnologue does not list any Continental<br>
Celtic languages, because they are all long extinct. &nbsp;See<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#Divisions" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#Divisions</a> for details:<br>
some people disagree with this subdivision, and consider P-Celtic<br>
vs. Q-Celtic a more important distinction than Continental vs. Insular.<br>
<br>
The sub-registrar for ancient languages in 639-3 is Linguist List;<br>
we could ask them what they recommend be done. &nbsp;(For example, Gaulish<br>
could become a macrolanguage.)<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; So we would need a new code, or ask ISO to add one. (Having codes for the<br>
&gt; families in the Ethnologue would be pretty handy; many exist, but many<br>
&gt; don&#39;t.)<br>
<br>
</div>That&#39;s the domain of ISO 639-5.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
Eric Raymond is the Margaret Mead &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; John Cowan<br>
of the Open Source movement. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;--Bruce Perens, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan" target="_blank">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;some years ago<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Andrew Cunningham 2008-05-08 10.04:
> 2008/5/8 Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>:
>
> >  This means that we can say xml:lang="mul" and encompass all the
> >  langugeas of the world. But not any two or more languages. With
> >  xml:lang="mul-en-fr" one coud be more spesific.
>   

> Doing something like xml:lang="mul-en-fr" would not be a good way to
> go. The xml:lang attribute would indicate the language of the contents
> of an element and should be a single value. Adding multiple vlaues
> would affect inheritance of language values. It would effect
> processing data and displaying data.
>   

Rethinking: Perhaps it is not advicable on the xml:lang tag, which only 
is inside the root element - if I remember. But the very thing, to be 
able to specify mul-en-fr on other elements than the root element, seems 
meaningful to me.

Does that sound better?

But otherwise, even for xml:lang, there is no principle diff between 
xml:lang="mul" - which I guess isn't forbidded - and xml:lang="mul-en-fr".
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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Andrew Cunningham 2008-05-08 10.04:
> Hi all,
>
> 2008/5/8 Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>:
>
> >  This means that we can say xml:lang="mul" and encompass all the
> >  langugeas of the world. But not any two or more languages. With
> >  xml:lang="mul-en-fr" one coud be more spesific.
>
> There is a need to be able specify the intended audience of a
> document, in HTML terms there is covered by the HTTP Header and
> metadata in the document, which could contain multiple values. I'll
> leave aside the fact that many user agents don't do anything
> meaningful with that data, but it is possible to add the data.
>
> Doing something like xml:lang="mul-en-fr" would not be a good way to
> go. The xml:lang attribute would indicate the language of the contents
> of an element and should be a single value. Adding multiple vlaues
> would affect inheritance of language values. It would effect
> processing data and displaying data.
>
> At any one time you would not be able to identify the language of text
> being processed from the xml:lang attribute.
>   

By using lang="mul" I would say that that content was multlingual. That 
would be useful, e.g. via CSS. And I can't see it would break xml:lang, 
as you also mentioned. Adding "mul-fr-en" is just a more spesific tagging.
-- 
leif halvard


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May  8 08:47:56 2008
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Peter Constable 2008-05-08 08.26:
> Btw, in relation to "lists" for declaring dual language values on a given bit of content, and specifically the #3 case in which the "dual" values are the generic/specific pair for the "same" thing (to the extent that e.g. "zh" is the "same" as "yue" or as "nan" etc.), it occurs to me that there is one way we could be completely certain about being able to express the generic/specific "list" in a way that all BCP 47 apps could support: extlang!
>   
> > Peter Constable, Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:48 PM
> > > From: Phillips, Addison Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:20 PM
> > > In the response I just sent, I point out that lists are extensively
> > > dealt with in RFC 4647, which is, after all, part of BCP 47.
>   
> > #1. "mul" is case #2. But there is a third potential kind of list, [...]
> > 3. declaring a single variety for content/resources at multiple levels
> > of specificity

Regarding #3, yes, for those languages for which it has been judged that 
extlang would be allowed. Not all macrolanguages was planned included in 
the extlang feature.

To cover all macrolangues - or "same" situations, just as one could have 
said that "mul-fr-en" could be used to tell what kind of langues a "mul" 
covered, it should also be possible to define a macrolanguage tag - 
"mac" - which could be used for such cases. For example "mac-zh-cmn", 
and "mac-no-nn". Or, perhaps more backward compatible: zh-mac-cmn, 
no-mac-nb. Or perhaps nother keyword subtag than "mac" - how about "=" 
or "plus" or ...

-- 
leif halvard silli
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May  8 08:48:00 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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Hi all,

2008/5/8 Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>:

>  This means that we can say xml:lang="mul" and encompass all the
>  langugeas of the world. But not any two or more languages. With
>  xml:lang="mul-en-fr" one coud be more spesific.

There is a need to be able specify the intended audience of a
document, in HTML terms there is covered by the HTTP Header and
metadata in the document, which could contain multiple values. I'll
leave aside the fact that many user agents don't do anything
meaningful with that data, but it is possible to add the data.

Doing something like xml:lang="mul-en-fr" would not be a good way to
go. The xml:lang attribute would indicate the language of the contents
of an element and should be a single value. Adding multiple vlaues
would affect inheritance of language values. It would effect
processing data and displaying data.

At any one time you would not be able to identify the language of text
being processed from the xml:lang attribute.

If you were defining a schema or DTD you could create an attribute to
identify audience or document language(s) that could contain multiple
values. There is no need to break xml:lang.

Andrew



-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
lang.support@gmail.com
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] default for q-values in Accept-Language and elsewhere
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Dear HTTP WG,

Please accept my appology for the double confusion:
- Sending out the same change request just a few hours after Mark.
- Not being able to find the text about the default value
  despite reading that subsection several times.

Regards,    Martin.

At 16:07 08/05/07, Martin Duerst wrote:
>
>Dear HTTP WG,
>
>This was brought up in the LTRU WG by Mark Davis:
>
>>Unfortunately, the specs are ill-defined regarding the q values. Take the 
>>following example:
>>
>>a, b;q=0.7, c, d;q=0.5, e, f;q=0.9, g
>>
>>The specs do not distinguish between at least two different possible 
>>reasonable interpretations of what the q values of c, e, and g are: 
>    * >   c;q=1.0, e;q=1.0, g;q=1 // always 1 
>    * >   c;q=0.7, e;q=0.5, g;q=0.9 // always same as previous 
>> Our guess is that the user meant #2, but it is only a guess.
>
>I read RFC 2616, and indeed didn't find any specification of
>the defaults for q values in the case of Accept-Language.
>
>Looking at other subsections of Section 14, there is an explicit
>default of q=1 for Accept and Accept-Charset, but I also didn't
>find a default for Accept-Encoding.
>
>Please add this issue to your issue list unless you already
>have it listed.
>
>Regards,   Martin.
>
>
>#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
>#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>, "'Doug Ewell'"
	<doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 08:46:15 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Um.. they adopted a registered (grandfathered) tag from the 3066 era.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Debbie Garside
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:05 AM
> To: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
>  Doug wrote:
>
> > It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-yue"
> > extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not
> > the only ones who will need to be re-educated.
>
> It is hardly surprising that wikipedia adopted extlang as the "noise"
> coming
> out of this WG for the past few years has been that the syntax was
> absolutely stable!
>
> Best
>
> Debbie
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> > Sent: 08 May 2008 03:32
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > Mark Davis <mark dot davis at icu dash project dot org> wrote:
> >
> > > Nothing better to start with than the Cantonese Wikipedia article
> on
> > > Cantonese:
> > >
> > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-yue.wikipedia.o
> > rg/wiki/%E7%B2%B5%E8%AA%9E>>.
> > > Similarly,
> > >
> > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-
> yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> > > %E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF>>,
> > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode>, and
> > > pretty much everything else in the Cantonese Wikipedia.
> >
> > It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-yue"
> > extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not
> > the only ones who will need to be re-educated.
> >
> > --
> > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > http://www.ewellic.org
> > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
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Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
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Within ISO FDIS 639-6 data the hierarchy is as follows:
 
ineu	 wrld	 Indo-European	
cltc	 ineu	 Celtic	
cclc	 cltc	 Celtic Continental 	
lptc	 cclc	 Lepontic	
glsh	 cclc	 Gaulish	
xcg	 glsh	 Cisalpine Gaulish	
xtg	 glsh	 Transalpine Gaulish	
 
If anyone has any comments/better ideas now is the time to say so as I am
just putting the final touches to the data.
 
best
 
Debbie


  _____  

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark
Davis
Sent: 08 May 2008 14:52
To: John Cowan
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags


That was caught - see my later message.


On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:05 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:


Mark Davis scripsit:


> cel-gaulish
>
> it looks like this was intended to be what the ethnologue calls Brythonic:


Not at all.  Brythonic is a child of Insular, which is a sib
of Continental.  Ethnologue does not list any Continental
Celtic languages, because they are all long extinct.  See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#Divisions for details:
some people disagree with this subdivision, and consider P-Celtic
vs. Q-Celtic a more important distinction than Continental vs. Insular.

The sub-registrar for ancient languages in 639-3 is Linguist List;
we could ask them what they recommend be done.  (For example, Gaulish
could become a macrolanguage.)


> So we would need a new code, or ask ISO to add one. (Having codes for the
> families in the Ethnologue would be pretty handy; many exist, but many
> don't.)


That's the domain of ISO 639-5.

--
Eric Raymond is the Margaret Mead               John Cowan
of the Open Source movement.                    cowan@ccil.org
       --Bruce Perens,                         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
<http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan> 
         some years ago





-- 
Mark 


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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D453534715-08052008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Within ISO FDIS&nbsp;639-6 data the hierarchy is as=20
follows:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D453534715-08052008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><SPAN class=3D453534715-08052008>
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<TABLE style=3D"WIDTH: 283pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=3D0 =

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size=3D2>Indo-European</FONT></TD></TR>
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    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
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    width=3D249><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Celtic</FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
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      Continental<SPAN=20
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    <TD class=3Dxl25=20
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    width=3D249><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lepontic</FONT></TD></TR>
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    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 1pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 1pt =
solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
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    <TD class=3Dxl25=20
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    <TD class=3Dxl25=20
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    width=3D249><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gaulish</FONT></TD></TR>
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    <TD class=3Dxl25=20
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    width=3D249><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cisalpine =
Gaulish</FONT></TD></TR>
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    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
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    <TD class=3Dxl25=20
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BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 1pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>glsh</FONT></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl25=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 187pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 1pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D249><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Transalpine=20
Gaulish</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D453534715-08052008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>If anyone has any comments/better ideas now is the time to say =
so as I am=20
just putting the final touches to the data.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D453534715-08052008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D453534715-08052008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>best</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D453534715-08052008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D453534715-08052008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Debbie</FONT></SPAN></DIV></SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> ltru-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark =
Davis<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
  08 May 2008 14:52<BR><B>To:</B> John Cowan<BR><B>Cc:</B> LTRU Working=20
  Group<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular=20
  Tags<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>That was caught - see my later message.<BR><BR>
  <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:05 PM, John Cowan =
&lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</A>&gt; wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Mark=20
    Davis scripsit:<BR>
    <DIV class=3DIh2E3d><BR>&gt; cel-gaulish<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; it looks =
like this=20
    was intended to be what the ethnologue calls =
Brythonic:<BR><BR></DIV>Not at=20
    all. &nbsp;Brythonic is a child of Insular, which is a sib<BR>of=20
    Continental. &nbsp;Ethnologue does not list any =
Continental<BR>Celtic=20
    languages, because they are all long extinct. &nbsp;See<BR><A=20
    href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#Divisions"=20
    =
target=3D_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#Divisions</=
A>=20
    for details:<BR>some people disagree with this subdivision, and =
consider=20
    P-Celtic<BR>vs. Q-Celtic a more important distinction than =
Continental vs.=20
    Insular.<BR><BR>The sub-registrar for ancient languages in 639-3 is =
Linguist=20
    List;<BR>we could ask them what they recommend be done. &nbsp;(For =
example,=20
    Gaulish<BR>could become a macrolanguage.)<BR>
    <DIV class=3DIh2E3d><BR>&gt; So we would need a new code, or ask ISO =
to add=20
    one. (Having codes for the<BR>&gt; families in the Ethnologue would =
be=20
    pretty handy; many exist, but many<BR>&gt; =
don't.)<BR><BR></DIV>That's the=20
    domain of ISO 639-5.<BR><FONT color=3D#888888><BR>--<BR>Eric Raymond =
is the=20
    Margaret Mead &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; John=20
    Cowan<BR>of the Open Source movement. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
    &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</A><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
    &nbsp;--Bruce Perens, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
    &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <A =
href=3D"http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan"=20
    target=3D_blank>http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</A><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
    &nbsp;some years ago<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR =
clear=3Dall><BR>--=20
  <BR>Mark </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 08:55:32 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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> That could be done not by changing the tagging, but by changing the
> Web server's notion of what "zh" means (configurably, of course, not
> unconditionally) so that requests for "zh" resources will find both "zh"
> ones and "cmn" ones, and perhaps vice versa, depending on the needs of
> the site.

And isn't a list a type of configurabilty?  It'd probably have to be configurable at the page level.  Also the server probably needs to understand the intent of the user and the page designer.  Presumably http-accept-lang can include multiple variants if the user thinks its interesting.

A random though I had from Peter's suggesting that "isn't zh-cmn a type of list?" is that we *could* allow zh for Chinese, cmn for Mandarin, and zh-cmn for the "list" syntax, in a somewhat portable format.  That doesn't solve the german/english dictionary scenario, but it would address all the variations of Chinese "lists".

- Shawn
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To: "'Phillips, Addison'" <addison@amazon.com>,
	"'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Addison wrote:

> Um.. they adopted a registered (grandfathered) tag from the 3066 era.

/blush/ :-) I didn't know that!

But it doesn't change the fact that the syntax that was supposed to be
completely stable and which would have kept the tag "current" has, in
effect, been scuppered!  or do I have that wrong too?

Best
Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> Sent: 08 May 2008 16:46
> To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Um.. they adopted a registered (grandfathered) tag from the 3066 era.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf
> > Of Debbie Garside
> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:05 AM
> > To: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> >  Doug wrote:
> >
> > > It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-yue"
> > > extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not the
> > > only ones who will need to be re-educated.
> >
> > It is hardly surprising that wikipedia adopted extlang as
> the "noise"
> > coming
> > out of this WG for the past few years has been that the syntax was
> > absolutely stable!
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > > Of Doug Ewell
> > > Sent: 08 May 2008 03:32
> > > To: LTRU Working Group
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > >
> > > Mark Davis <mark dot davis at icu dash project dot org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nothing better to start with than the Cantonese
> Wikipedia article
> > on
> > > > Cantonese:
> > > >
> > > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-yue.wikipedia.o
> > > rg/wiki/%E7%B2%B5%E8%AA%9E>>.
> > > > Similarly,
> > > >
> > > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-
> > yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> > > > %E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF>>,
> > > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode>, and
> > > > pretty much everything else in the Cantonese Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-yue"
> > > extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not the
> > > only ones who will need to be re-educated.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > > http://www.ewellic.org
> > > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>




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Registered tags are valid forever, regardless of the choices we make now (or later). Their choice might be deprecated or be assigned a preferred value, but it will always be valid. For that matter, "no-nyn" is a valid tag for "nn". It's also been deprecated for years.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:01 AM
> To: Phillips, Addison; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Addison wrote:
>
> > Um.. they adopted a registered (grandfathered) tag from the 3066 era.
>
> /blush/ :-) I didn't know that!
>
> But it doesn't change the fact that the syntax that was supposed to be
> completely stable and which would have kept the tag "current" has, in
> effect, been scuppered!  or do I have that wrong too?
>
> Best
> Debbie
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> > Sent: 08 May 2008 16:46
> > To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > Um.. they adopted a registered (grandfathered) tag from the 3066 era.
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > Addison Phillips
> > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> >
> > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > It is an architecture.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Debbie Garside
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:05 AM
> > > To: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > >
> > >  Doug wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-
> yue"
> > > > extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not the
> > > > only ones who will need to be re-educated.
> > >
> > > It is hardly surprising that wikipedia adopted extlang as
> > the "noise"
> > > coming
> > > out of this WG for the past few years has been that the syntax was
> > > absolutely stable!
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Debbie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> > [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > > > Of Doug Ewell
> > > > Sent: 08 May 2008 03:32
> > > > To: LTRU Working Group
> > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > > >
> > > > Mark Davis <mark dot davis at icu dash project dot org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nothing better to start with than the Cantonese
> > Wikipedia article
> > > on
> > > > > Cantonese:
> > > > >
> > > > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-yue.wikipedia.o
> > > > rg/wiki/%E7%B2%B5%E8%AA%9E>>.
> > > > > Similarly,
> > > > >
> > > > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/??<http://zh-
> > > yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> > > > > %E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF>>,
> > > > <http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode>, and
> > > > > pretty much everything else in the Cantonese Wikipedia.
> > > >
> > > > It's really a shame, isn't it, that Wikipedia adopted the "zh-
> yue"
> > > > extlang convention for naming their subdomains.  They're not the
> > > > only ones who will need to be re-educated.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > > > http://www.ewellic.org
> > > > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Ltru mailing list
> > > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
>
>
>

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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 09:12:13 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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> From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]


> And so, the discussion comes full circle. :-)
>
> This is the very reason why extlang was introduced in the first place
> (I
> think).

Well, not quite, really.

It didn't come about by this line of reasoning. The reasoning that initially led to extlang was tied up with the reasoning that led to macro-languages in ISO 639-3. My point of departure was having assumed I'd approach ISO 639-2 entries that potentially would map to multiple languages using a major-language-variety operational principle I had defined.

a. IANA already has registered entries zh-yue, zh-guoyu, etc. that would contradict the application of the MLV principle.

b. MARC explicitly treats zh/zho/chi as encompassing Mandarin and Cantonese; that also contradicts the application of the MLV principle. (Ditto for most of the other cases in ISO 639-2.)

c. Maybe I need to abandon MLV and go with some notion of an intermediate-level grouping between individual language and collection. I'll call that "macro-language" until I find a better name. So long, MLV; hello "macro-language".

d. Hmmm... Several of the IANA-registered tags for individual Chinese languages use alpha-3 subtags; if all of them did that, then we could have a general principle applicable to macro-language cases, and these would go away as special cases.

e. And if we did that, then the right-truncation matching would automatically match uses of the new, more specific IDs with the pre-existing macro-language IDs. (Of course, that was recognized for zh-yue etc. when they were first registered.)

f. Looks like two potential benefits to the xx(x)-yyy syntax for macro-language cases: the current special cases are no longer special, and right-truncation matching works for matching the newer individual-language IDs with existing macro-language IDs. Let's float "extlang" for 3066bis.


The line of reasoning I gave here was slightly different:

A. It may be useful in some scenarios to be able to make a paired declaration about the language attributes of an information object, giving both specific and generic values.

B. Some applications might allow specifying two language tags for an IO, but for some applications that might require a breaking change.

C. If a single tag contained both the specific and generic IDs in a way that fit 4646 syntax, then there'd be no need for any breaking changes: all BCP47 apps would already permit it.

d. Extlang does that.



Peter
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> Rethinking: Perhaps it is not advicable on the xml:lang tag, which only 
> is inside the root element - if I remember. But the very thing, to be 
> able to specify mul-en-fr on other elements than the root element, seems 
> meaningful to me.

No, it may be used on any element, and is scoped to the content of that
element, <span xml:lang="fr">par exemple</span>, thus.

> But otherwise, even for xml:lang, there is no principle diff between 
> xml:lang="mul" - which I guess isn't forbidded - and xml:lang="mul-en-fr".

Except that "mul" is a valid language tag and "mul-en-fr" isn't even well-formed.

-- 
John Cowan    cowan@ccil.org    http://ccil.org/~cowan
   There was an old man                Said with a laugh, "I
     From Peru, whose lim'ricks all      Cut them in half, the pay is
       Look'd like haiku.  He              Much better for two."
                                             --Emmet O'Brien
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Debbie Garside


> I think that where this especially goes awry is with the adjective
> "dominant" (as pointed out by Shawn or Leif earlier) and would propose
> that we change the description  to "most prolific" or some such.

What people are seeing here is exactly the "major-language-variety" principle that Gary Simons and I came up with back when we began our analysis of ISO 639-2. You can find the complete details on that work here:

https://www.ethnologue.com/14/iso639/An_analysis_of_ISO_639.pdf

Here's the bit on MLV:

   4. The mapping for an individual language code should be to
      the unique language (if any) that resembles a major language.

Such assessment of languages was based on a prototype definition using various criteria,
including the following:

- The language is spoken by a substantially larger population than the other potential
candidates (we looked for a ratio on the order of 10:1 or greater).

- The language has literature, and preferably an established tradition of internal literature
development.*

- There is evidence that the language is used in mass media.

- The language is an official language in one or more of the countries in which it is spoken.

# That tradition may have been recently introduced, though a long-standing tradition provides better evidence.


(A prototype definition for a concept means that all of the criteria apply to an instance in the _ideal_ case, but it's not necessary that all apply in every case, and there's a fuzzy boundary. So, some entities are better fits than others, some are clearly in and others clearly out, and some are in between.)



Peter
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>, 'Doug Ewell' <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Debbie Garside scripsit:

> But it doesn't change the fact that the syntax that was supposed to be
> completely stable and which would have kept the tag "current" has, in
> effect, been scuppered!  or do I have that wrong too?

No, we just decided not to extend the valid (as opposed to well-formed)
syntax in a certain direction that we expected to, leaving zh-yue 
still well-formed and valid and grandfathered, rather than redundant.

-- 
All Norstrilians knew what laughter was:        John Cowan
it was "pleasurable corrigible malfunction".    cowan@ccil.org
        --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrilia
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May  8 09:38:37 2008
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 09:37:06 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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Trying to solve the kinds of problems xml:lang="mul-en-fr" is trying to solve has nothing to do, IMO, with the issues we're trying to sort out to complete 4646bis, and belongs entirely on the side of the consuming application of 4646bis, not in 4646 itself. I think we could end that discussion.


My $.02.

Peter



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:07 AM
> To: Andrew Cunningham
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
>
> Andrew Cunningham 2008-05-08 10.04:
> > 2008/5/8 Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>:
> >
> > >  This means that we can say xml:lang="mul" and encompass all the
> > >  langugeas of the world. But not any two or more languages. With
> > >  xml:lang="mul-en-fr" one coud be more spesific.
> >
>
> > Doing something like xml:lang="mul-en-fr" would not be a good way to
> > go. The xml:lang attribute would indicate the language of the
> contents
> > of an element and should be a single value. Adding multiple vlaues
> > would affect inheritance of language values. It would effect
> > processing data and displaying data.
> >
>
> Rethinking: Perhaps it is not advicable on the xml:lang tag, which only
> is inside the root element - if I remember. But the very thing, to be
> able to specify mul-en-fr on other elements than the root element,
> seems
> meaningful to me.
>
> Does that sound better?
>
> But otherwise, even for xml:lang, there is no principle diff between
> xml:lang="mul" - which I guess isn't forbidded - and xml:lang="mul-en-
> fr".
> --
> leif halvard silli
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May  8 09:45:49 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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John wrote:

> No, we just decided not to extend the valid (as opposed to
> well-formed) syntax in a certain direction that we expected
> to, leaving zh-yue still well-formed and valid and
> grandfathered, rather than redundant.

I fear we are quibbling here! :-)

In essence, Wikipedia may have devised an entire system based around the
syntax **(*)-*** based on their adoption of zh-yue and the supporting
information from RFC4646 that this syntax was valid, current and stable.  I
am not saying that they have but we don't know that a number of
organizations haven't.

best

Debbie



> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]
> Sent: 08 May 2008 17:32
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: 'Phillips, Addison'; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Debbie Garside scripsit:
>
> > But it doesn't change the fact that the syntax that was
> supposed to be
> > completely stable and which would have kept the tag
> "current" has, in
> > effect, been scuppered!  or do I have that wrong too?
>
> No, we just decided not to extend the valid (as opposed to
> well-formed) syntax in a certain direction that we expected
> to, leaving zh-yue still well-formed and valid and
> grandfathered, rather than redundant.
>
> --
> All Norstrilians knew what laughter was:        John Cowan
> it was "pleasurable corrigible malfunction".    cowan@ccil.org
>         --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrilia
>
>
>
>




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
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Thanks for the explanation.

I find your reasoning quite sound.

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: 08 May 2008 17:12
> To: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> > From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]
>
>
> > And so, the discussion comes full circle. :-)
> >
> > This is the very reason why extlang was introduced in the
> first place
> > (I think).
>
> Well, not quite, really.
>
> It didn't come about by this line of reasoning. The reasoning
> that initially led to extlang was tied up with the reasoning
> that led to macro-languages in ISO 639-3. My point of
> departure was having assumed I'd approach ISO 639-2 entries
> that potentially would map to multiple languages using a
> major-language-variety operational principle I had defined.
>
> a. IANA already has registered entries zh-yue, zh-guoyu, etc.
> that would contradict the application of the MLV principle.
>
> b. MARC explicitly treats zh/zho/chi as encompassing Mandarin
> and Cantonese; that also contradicts the application of the
> MLV principle. (Ditto for most of the other cases in ISO 639-2.)
>
> c. Maybe I need to abandon MLV and go with some notion of an
> intermediate-level grouping between individual language and
> collection. I'll call that "macro-language" until I find a
> better name. So long, MLV; hello "macro-language".
>
> d. Hmmm... Several of the IANA-registered tags for individual
> Chinese languages use alpha-3 subtags; if all of them did
> that, then we could have a general principle applicable to
> macro-language cases, and these would go away as special cases.
>
> e. And if we did that, then the right-truncation matching
> would automatically match uses of the new, more specific IDs
> with the pre-existing macro-language IDs. (Of course, that
> was recognized for zh-yue etc. when they were first registered.)
>
> f. Looks like two potential benefits to the xx(x)-yyy syntax
> for macro-language cases: the current special cases are no
> longer special, and right-truncation matching works for
> matching the newer individual-language IDs with existing
> macro-language IDs. Let's float "extlang" for 3066bis.
>
>
> The line of reasoning I gave here was slightly different:
>
> A. It may be useful in some scenarios to be able to make a
> paired declaration about the language attributes of an
> information object, giving both specific and generic values.
>
> B. Some applications might allow specifying two language tags
> for an IO, but for some applications that might require a
> breaking change.
>
> C. If a single tag contained both the specific and generic
> IDs in a way that fit 4646 syntax, then there'd be no need
> for any breaking changes: all BCP47 apps would already permit it.
>
> d. Extlang does that.
>
>
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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>
>
>




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Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 09:59:35 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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Agreed. The one thing we might do for the text is make it clear that we
recommend the use of language priority tests, both for queries and tagging,
wherever possible.

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Trying to solve the kinds of problems xml:lang="mul-en-fr" is trying to
> solve has nothing to do, IMO, with the issues we're trying to sort out to
> complete 4646bis, and belongs entirely on the side of the consuming
> application of 4646bis, not in 4646 itself. I think we could end that
> discussion.
>
>
> My $.02.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > Leif Halvard Silli
> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:07 AM
> > To: Andrew Cunningham
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
> >
> > Andrew Cunningham 2008-05-08 10.04:
> > > 2008/5/8 Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>:
> > >
> > > >  This means that we can say xml:lang="mul" and encompass all the
> > > >  langugeas of the world. But not any two or more languages. With
> > > >  xml:lang="mul-en-fr" one coud be more spesific.
> > >
> >
> > > Doing something like xml:lang="mul-en-fr" would not be a good way to
> > > go. The xml:lang attribute would indicate the language of the
> > contents
> > > of an element and should be a single value. Adding multiple vlaues
> > > would affect inheritance of language values. It would effect
> > > processing data and displaying data.
> > >
> >
> > Rethinking: Perhaps it is not advicable on the xml:lang tag, which only
> > is inside the root element - if I remember. But the very thing, to be
> > able to specify mul-en-fr on other elements than the root element,
> > seems
> > meaningful to me.
> >
> > Does that sound better?
> >
> > But otherwise, even for xml:lang, there is no principle diff between
> > xml:lang="mul" - which I guess isn't forbidded - and xml:lang="mul-en-
> > fr".
> > --
> > leif halvard silli
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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Agreed. The one thing we might do for the text is make it clear that we recommend the use of language priority tests, both for queries and tagging, wherever possible.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Peter Constable &lt;<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Trying to solve the kinds of problems xml:lang=&quot;mul-en-fr&quot; is trying to solve has nothing to do, IMO, with the issues we&#39;re trying to sort out to complete 4646bis, and belongs entirely on the side of the consuming application of 4646bis, not in 4646 itself. I think we could end that discussion.<br>

<br>
<br>
My $.02.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Peter<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
&gt; Leif Halvard Silli<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:07 AM<br>
&gt; To: Andrew Cunningham<br>
&gt; Cc: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Andrew Cunningham 2008-05-08 10.04:<br>
&gt; &gt; 2008/5/8 Leif Halvard Silli &lt;<a href="mailto:lhs@malform.no">lhs@malform.no</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;This means that we can say xml:lang=&quot;mul&quot; and encompass all the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;langugeas of the world. But not any two or more languages. With<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;xml:lang=&quot;mul-en-fr&quot; one coud be more spesific.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Doing something like xml:lang=&quot;mul-en-fr&quot; would not be a good way to<br>
&gt; &gt; go. The xml:lang attribute would indicate the language of the<br>
&gt; contents<br>
&gt; &gt; of an element and should be a single value. Adding multiple vlaues<br>
&gt; &gt; would affect inheritance of language values. It would effect<br>
&gt; &gt; processing data and displaying data.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Rethinking: Perhaps it is not advicable on the xml:lang tag, which only<br>
&gt; is inside the root element - if I remember. But the very thing, to be<br>
&gt; able to specify mul-en-fr on other elements than the root element,<br>
&gt; seems<br>
&gt; meaningful to me.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Does that sound better?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; But otherwise, even for xml:lang, there is no principle diff between<br>
&gt; xml:lang=&quot;mul&quot; - which I guess isn&#39;t forbidded - and xml:lang=&quot;mul-en-<br>
&gt; fr&quot;.<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; leif halvard silli<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May  8 10:50:09 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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John Cowan 2008-05-08 18.14:
> Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
>
> > Rethinking: Perhaps it is not advicable on the xml:lang tag, which only 
> > is inside the root element - if I remember. But the very thing, to be 
> > able to specify mul-en-fr on other elements than the root element, seems 
> > meaningful to me.
>
> No, it may be used on any element, [...]
>   

Of course. Sorry.

> > But otherwise, even for xml:lang, there is no principle diff between 
> > xml:lang="mul" - which I guess isn't forbidded - and xml:lang="mul-en-fr".
>
> Except that "mul" is a valid language tag and "mul-en-fr" isn't even well-formed.
>   

Of course. But the interesting thing is if it can be set up in 
well-formed way.
-- 
leif halvard silli

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Peter Constable 2008-05-08 09.45:
> > From: Leif Halvard Silli [mailto:lhs@malform.no]
>
>
> > This means that we can say xml:lang="mul" and encompass all the
> > langugeas of the world. But not any two or more languages. With
> > xml:lang="mul-en-fr" one coud be more spesific.
>
> Except that, as I suspected, it's not acceptable XML.
>   

If it is not acceptable XML, then it is because it is not an acceptable 
language tag - as John pointed out.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Peter Constable 2008-05-08 18.37:
> xml:lang="mul-en-fr"  [...] I think we could end that discussion.
>   

I take note.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Thread-Topic: solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
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I'd like to propose a series of edits to try and resolve the Chinese/macrolanguage thread. In particular, I think clear treatment of Chinese tag choice in the section on tag choice makes sense. In a separate email I will address Shawn's proposal regarding lists. In this email I suggest we replace this text:

--
In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without losing the script and region information (even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request).
--

... with this longer text on Chinese:

--
<t>In particular, the family of languages belonging to the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') call for special consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most languages, textual content SHOULD use the 'zh' subtag, possibly with a script subtag (indicating, for example, the difference between the 'Hant' traditional script and the 'Hans' simplified script), region, or other subtags to deliniate any additional or local variations in language. Use of specific encompassed language subtags is permitted and could make a better choice when there are language-specific variations (as when a written record is created from the spoken material or in colloquial contexts that call for such a differentiation). </t>

<t>For other applications of language tags on Chinese language content, the use of the specific encompassed language subtag is RECOMMENDED. For example, a song, audio recording, or movie soundtrack in Cantonese might use a tag such as "yue-HK", indicating that it uses Cantonese as used in Hong Kong, whereas a similar content item in Mandarin Chinese might use a tag such as "cmn-HK".</t>

<t> Historically subtags for the various encompassed Chinese languages were not available, so  content in these languages have historically used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'.  These tags were deprecated in the registry upon adoption of this document, but remain valid for use. The modern forms are preferred, however, since implementations might not be able to associate the older tags with the modern equivalents. Implementations are encouraged to canonicalize tags for comparison purposes.</t>

<t> Finally, macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation.  For example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm (<xref target="RFC4647"></xref>) to include the range "zh-Hans-CN" as a fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" (preserving the script and region information) even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request. For the Chinese languages in particular, this practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage is RECOMMENDED.</t>
--

In addition, I propose that we remove 'zh'/'cmn' from the list of "dominant varieties" in the table in that section. That would seem to address most of the concerns about tagging Chinese as I understand them. Note that a discussion of text about "lists" is intended to follow.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> ... with this longer text on Chinese:

+1

-- 
"But I am the real Strider, fortunately,"       John Cowan
he said, looking down at them with his face     cowan@ccil.org
softened by a sudden smile.  "I am Aragorn son  http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
of Arathorn, and if by life or death I can
save you, I will."  --LotR Book I Chapter 10
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I'm concerned about the first paragraph.  From the earlier discussion it sounds like Mandarin and Cantonese written text are NOT interchangeable, so I don't think that the "zh" tag is appropriate for both, particularly if both are available in a resource.

- Shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phillips, Addison
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:59 PM
To: 'LTRU Working Group'
Subject: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)

I'd like to propose a series of edits to try and resolve the Chinese/macrolanguage thread. In particular, I think clear treatment of Chinese tag choice in the section on tag choice makes sense. In a separate email I will address Shawn's proposal regarding lists. In this email I suggest we replace this text:

--
In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. This means that macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without losing the script and region information (even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request).
--

... with this longer text on Chinese:

--
<t>In particular, the family of languages belonging to the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') call for special consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most languages, textual content SHOULD use the 'zh' subtag, possibly with a script subtag (indicating, for example, the difference between the 'Hant' traditional script and the 'Hans' simplified script), region, or other subtags to deliniate any additional or local variations in language. Use of specific encompassed language subtags is permitted and could make a better choice when there are language-specific variations (as when a written record is created from the spoken material or in colloquial contexts that call for such a differentiation). </t>

<t>For other applications of language tags on Chinese language content, the use of the specific encompassed language subtag is RECOMMENDED. For example, a song, audio recording, or movie soundtrack in Cantonese might use a tag such as "yue-HK", indicating that it uses Cantonese as used in Hong Kong, whereas a similar content item in Mandarin Chinese might use a tag such as "cmn-HK".</t>

<t> Historically subtags for the various encompassed Chinese languages were not available, so  content in these languages have historically used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'.  These tags were deprecated in the registry upon adoption of this document, but remain valid for use. The modern forms are preferred, however, since implementations might not be able to associate the older tags with the modern equivalents. Implementations are encouraged to canonicalize tags for comparison purposes.</t>

<t> Finally, macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation.  For example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm (<xref target="RFC4647"></xref>) to include the range "zh-Hans-CN" as a fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" (preserving the script and region information) even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request. For the Chinese languages in particular, this practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage is RECOMMENDED.</t>
--

In addition, I propose that we remove 'zh'/'cmn' from the list of "dominant varieties" in the table in that section. That would seem to address most of the concerns about tagging Chinese as I understand them. Note that a discussion of text about "lists" is intended to follow.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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Mandarin and Cantonese text are not interchangeable. However, most *text* is actually Standard Mandarin. Written Cantonese is covered by the last sentence about colloquial contexts. I note Mark's quoting of John Jenkins quoting:

--
Meanwhile, I quote from Stephen Matthews and Virginia Yip, _Cantonese: A Comprehensive Grammar_ (London: Routledge, 1994), pp. 5-6:  "Traditionally, Cantonese has been regarded as one of the many Chinese dialects. It does not have a standardized written form on a par with standard written Chinese.  No form of written Cantonese is taught in schools or used in academic settings in any Cantonese-speaking community.  When it comes to the written form, it is standard written Chinese that is taught and learnt.  For educated Cantonese speakers, standard written Chinese is the written form they use in most contexts.  However, in colloquial genres such as novels, popular magazines, newspaper gossip columns, informal personal communications, written Cantonese may be used.  When written Cantonese contains too many exclusively Cantonese words and expressions, non-Cantonese speakers may find it totally unintelligible."
--

We don't say they are interchangeable. But the fact is that most *writing* is in a standard form. When you have a distinction, you tag appropriately.

I also caution strongly: this discussion has tended to focus obsessively on Mandarin/Cantonese as an example pair. But zh-coded-Chinese actually encloses 13 languages in ISO 639-3, many of which have dialects of their own with large speaker populations. Suggesting that "standard written Chinese" documents should get 13 extra tags associated with them "just to be sure" is a non-starter.

I don't diminish the need for specificity when appropriate. But nearly all literate Chinese read 'zh' and the distinction for (say) a Cantonese document is from that form. This is in stark contrast from audio content, where the choice is critical.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 1:54 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: RE: solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
>
> I'm concerned about the first paragraph.  From the earlier discussion
> it sounds like Mandarin and Cantonese written text are NOT
> interchangeable, so I don't think that the "zh" tag is appropriate for
> both, particularly if both are available in a resource.
>
>
> - Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Phillips, Addison
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:59 PM
> To: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
>
> I'd like to propose a series of edits to try and resolve the
> Chinese/macrolanguage thread. In particular, I think clear treatment of
> Chinese tag choice in the section on tag choice makes sense. In a
> separate email I will address Shawn's proposal regarding lists. In this
> email I suggest we replace this text:
>
> --
> In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
> consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most
> languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because
> historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not
> available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used
> either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. This
> means that macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when
> searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language
> negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has a
> macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to fallback
> from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without losing the
> script and region information (even though the user did not specify
> "zh-Hans-CN" in their request).
> --
>
> ... with this longer text on Chinese:
>
> --
> <t>In particular, the family of languages belonging to the
> macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') call for special consideration. Because
> the written form is very similar for most languages, textual content
> SHOULD use the 'zh' subtag, possibly with a script subtag (indicating,
> for example, the difference between the 'Hant' traditional script and
> the 'Hans' simplified script), region, or other subtags to deliniate
> any additional or local variations in language. Use of specific
> encompassed language subtags is permitted and could make a better
> choice when there are language-specific variations (as when a written
> record is created from the spoken material or in colloquial contexts
> that call for such a differentiation). </t>
>
> <t>For other applications of language tags on Chinese language content,
> the use of the specific encompassed language subtag is RECOMMENDED. For
> example, a song, audio recording, or movie soundtrack in Cantonese
> might use a tag such as "yue-HK", indicating that it uses Cantonese as
> used in Hong Kong, whereas a similar content item in Mandarin Chinese
> might use a tag such as "cmn-HK".</t>
>
> <t> Historically subtags for the various encompassed Chinese languages
> were not available, so  content in these languages have historically
> used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'.
> These tags were deprecated in the registry upon adoption of this
> document, but remain valid for use. The modern forms are preferred,
> however, since implementations might not be able to associate the older
> tags with the modern equivalents. Implementations are encouraged to
> canonicalize tags for comparison purposes.</t>
>
> <t> Finally, macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when
> searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language
> negotiation.  For example, the information that 'yue' has a
> macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm (<xref
> target="RFC4647"></xref>) to include the range "zh-Hans-CN" as a
> fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" (preserving the script and
> region information) even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN"
> in their request. For the Chinese languages in particular, this
> practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage
> is RECOMMENDED.</t>
> --
>
> In addition, I propose that we remove 'zh'/'cmn' from the list of
> "dominant varieties" in the table in that section. That would seem to
> address most of the concerns about tagging Chinese as I understand them.
> Note that a discussion of text about "lists" is intended to follow.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
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I took Shawn's suggestion below and Peter's email about use cases for lists and molded them into a single, new, section for draft-14. At first I wanted to include them into the section on choice or on meaning, but it just doesn't fit into either. Here's my proposed text:

--
<section anchor="lists" title="Lists of Languages">

<t>In some applications, a single content item might best be associated with more than one language tag. Examples of such a usage include:<list style="symbols">

   1.<t>A language priority list <xref target="RFC4647"></xref> describing a user's language preferences. This is a (possibly weighted) list of potentially-unrelated varieties, expressing a preference, rather than as a declaration about actual content.</t>

   2.<t>Content items that contain multiple, distinct varieties. Often this is used to indicate an appropriate audience for a given content item when multiple choices might be appropriate. Examples of this could include: <list style="symbols">

      a.<t>Metadata about the appropriate audience for a movie title. For example, a DVD might label its individual audio tracks 'de' (German), 'fr' (French), and 'es' (Spanish), but the overall title would list "de, fr, es" as its overall audience.</t>

      b.<t>A French/English, English/French dictionary tagged as both "en" and "fr" to specify that it applies equally to French and English</t>

      c.<t>A side-by-side or interlinear translation of a document, as is commonly done with classical works in Latin or Greek</t>

   </list> </t>

   3.<t>Content items that contain a single language but which require multiple levels of specificity. For example, a library might wish to classify a particular work as both Chinese ('zh') and as Min Nan ('nan') for audiences capable of appreciating the distinction or needing to select content more narrowly.</t></list>

</t>

</section>
--

I can't seem to think of any normative language to wrap around this that isn't already handled by the choice or meaning sections or by 4647.

Comments?

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:00 PM
> To: Shawn Steele; Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>
> I'm thinking something like this:
>
>
>
> 4.6? Lists of Language Tags
>
> In some applications a list of language tags is necessary, such as a
> user's language priority list, when multiple language apply equally to
> the same content, or when matching of older tags is expected.  Some
> example scenarios are:
>
> * A user could specify "en, de, jp" for a language priority list as
> described in RFC4647bis
> * A French/English, English/French dictionary could be tagged as "en,
> fr" to specify that it applies equally to French and English
> * A DVD could be tagged as having audio content in "en, fr" and
> subtitles in "en, fr, es, jp".
> * An English translation of a classical work could have the code "la,
> en".
> * Mandarin content expected to interchange with existing systems could
> be tagged "cmn, zh".
>
> Standards and protocols specifying this RFC MAY choose to allow lists
> of language tags.  Such standards and protocols MUST NOT be required to
> allow lists of language tags if not appropriate.
>
> If a list of language tags is used it MUST contain well formed language
> tags and strongly RECOMMENDED that those tags are chosen using the
> Choice of Language Tag guidelines.
>
> When a list of language tags is used, the protocols MUST specify
> whether or not an order is or is not implied or required for the list.
>
> When a collection of content, such as a DVD with multiple tracks, can
> be tagged with multiple languages, the collection SHOULD be tagged with
> the appropriate language tags, and the individual pieces of content
> SHOULD be tagged with a single language tag from the list of the
> collection.
>
> Recommendations for searching and matching of lists of language tags
> should be addressed in the successor to RFC 4647

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-08 21.58:
> <t>In particular, the family of languages belonging

1) 'family' can be interpreted as 'linguistic family'; Perhaps 'group'?
2) perhaps 'covered by' - or 'encompassed by' instead of 'belonging' - 
since that word is again connected to 'family'.

I do of course wonder why it is 'should use "zh"'. But perhaps it is OK. 
I must say, though, that this sets a precendence of other macrolanguages.

>  to the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') call for special consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most languages, textual content SHOULD use the 'zh' subtag, possibly with a script subtag (indicating, for example, the difference between the 'Hant' traditional script and the 'Hans' simplified script), region, or other subtags to deliniate any additional or local variations in language. Use of specific encompassed language subtags is permitted and could make a better choice when there are language-specific variations (as when a written record is created from the spoken material or in colloquial contexts that call for such a differentiation). </t>
>
> <t>For other applications of language tags on Chinese language content, the use of the specific encompassed language subtag is RECOMMENDED. For example, a song, audio recording, or movie soundtrack in Cantonese might use a tag such as "yue-HK", indicating that it uses Cantonese as used in Hong Kong, whereas a similar content item in Mandarin Chinese might use a tag such as "cmn-HK".</t>
>   

This 'for other applications' how does it differ from the application 
thought of in first paragraph? HWat is the application thought of in the 
first para?

Assume this is the context where you will bring in "lists".

> <t> Historically subtags for the various encompassed Chinese languages were not available, so  content in these languages have historically used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'.  These tags were deprecated in the registry upon adoption of this document, but remain valid for use. The modern forms are preferred, however, since implementations might not be able to associate the older tags with the modern equivalents. Implementations are encouraged to canonicalize tags for comparison purposes.</t>
>
> <t> Finally, macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language negotiation.  For example, the information that 'yue' has a macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm (<xref target="RFC4647"></xref>) to include the range "zh-Hans-CN" as a fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" (preserving the script and region information) even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN" in their request. For the Chinese languages in particular, this practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage is RECOMMENDED.</t>
> --
>   

The phrase "For the Chinese languages *in particular*," means that "this 
practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage 
is RECOMMENDED" for all  enocompassed languages of any macrolanguage. At 
least, that is how I read 'in particular'.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
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Addison wrote on 05/08/2008 12:58:59 PM:

> I'd like to propose a series of edits ...

> --
> <t>In particular, the family of languages belonging to the 
> macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') call for special consideration. Because
> the written form is very similar for most languages, textual content
> SHOULD use the 'zh' subtag, possibly with a script subtag 
> (indicating, for example, the difference between the 'Hant' 
> traditional script and the 'Hans' simplified script), region, or 
> other subtags to deliniate any additional or local variations in 
> language. Use of specific encompassed language subtags is permitted 
> and could make a better choice when there are language-specific 
> variations (as when a written record is created from the spoken 
> material or in colloquial contexts that call for such a 
differentiation). </t>
> 
> <t>For other applications of language tags on Chinese language 
> content, the use of the specific encompassed language subtag is 
> RECOMMENDED. For example, a song, audio recording, or movie 
> soundtrack in Cantonese might use a tag such as "yue-HK", indicating
> that it uses Cantonese as used in Hong Kong, whereas a similar 
> content item in Mandarin Chinese might use a tag such as "cmn-HK".</t>
> 
> <t> Historically subtags for the various encompassed Chinese 
> languages were not available, so  content in these languages have 
> historically used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning
> with 'zh'. 

Not necessarily true. Definitely not true in the data I've seen. 
Indicating that Cantonese docs typically use "zh" is different from the 
statement that the bulk of "zh" documents are Mandarin. My experience is 
that the users who need to specify Cantonese most often make up an illegal 
tag. Not saying that's what we should recommend, but I believe my 
experience does not support the statement as worded. Typo on "deliniate" 
FWIW.

> These tags were deprecated in the registry upon adoption
> of this document, but remain valid for use. 

"zh" is not deprecated -- yet. ;) I don't think that's what what you're 
trying to say, but that's how it reads.

The modern forms are 
> preferred, however, since implementations might not be able to 
> associate the older tags with the modern equivalents. 

Not entirely clear what is meant by "modern forms." 

> Implementations are encouraged to canonicalize tags for comparison 
> purposes.</t>
> 
> <t> Finally, macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when 
> searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language 
> negotiation.  For example, the information that 'yue' has a 
> macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm (<xref 
> target="RFC4647"></xref>) to include the range "zh-Hans-CN" as a 
> fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" (preserving the script and
> region information) even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-
> CN" in their request. For the Chinese languages in particular, this 
> practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its 
> macrolanguage is RECOMMENDED.</t>

Add "with written content" to the end of the last sentence? Useless with 
audio.

Regards,

Karen Broome





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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 14:40:58 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
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> I must say, though, that this sets a precendence of other
> macrolanguages.

Actually, it doesn't, as it is specifically and specially called out:

>
> >  to the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') call for special consideration.

> >
> > <t>For other applications of language tags on Chinese language
...
> >
>
> This 'for other applications' how does it differ from the application
> thought of in first paragraph? HWat is the application thought of in
> the
> first para?

Perhaps instead of "other applications" should say "other types of content" instead.

>
> Assume this is the context where you will bring in "lists".

No, it isn't. Lists do not belong, I think, in the section on "choice of language tag" (note singular 'tag').

> >
> > <t> Finally, macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when
> searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language
> negotiation.  For example, the information that 'yue' has a
> macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm (<xref
> target="RFC4647"></xref>) to include the range "zh-Hans-CN" as a
> fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" (preserving the script and
> region information) even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN"
> in their request. For the Chinese languages in particular, this
> practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage
> is RECOMMENDED.</t>
> > --
> >
>
> The phrase "For the Chinese languages *in particular*," means that
> "this
> practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage
> is RECOMMENDED" for all  enocompassed languages of any macrolanguage.
> At least, that is how I read 'in particular'.

No, the paragraph says, basically, you MAY use macrolanguage information in this manner and you SHOULD use it in particular for Chinese.

Addison
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
> Phillips, Addison 2008-05-08 21.58:

> > <t>In particular, the family of languages belonging
> 
> 1) 'family' can be interpreted as 'linguistic family'; Perhaps 'group'?

The languages encompassed by zh actually do constitute a linguistic family, Sinitic.
There is one exception, Dungan, which is actually inside the Mandarin dialect
continuum and fully intelligible with neighboring northwestern Mandarin varieties,
but is sociolinguistically separate because its speakers don't live in China and
use a standardized Cyrillic orthography (not transliteration) for all purposes.
Dungan aside, though, it is fair to speak of a family.

> 2) perhaps 'covered by' - or 'encompassed by' instead of 'belonging' - 
> since that word is again connected to 'family'.

"Encompassed by" is probably better.

> The phrase "For the Chinese languages *in particular*," means that "this 
> practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage 
> is RECOMMENDED" for all  enocompassed languages of any macrolanguage. At 
> least, that is how I read 'in particular'.

That is a plain misreading.  "In particular" does not mean "by way of example";
it emphasizes the uniqueness of the case.

-- 
Time alone is real                      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
  the rest imaginary
like a quaternion       --phma          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Addison wrote on 05/08/2008 02:26:27 PM:

> 
>       a.<t>Metadata about the appropriate audience for a movie 
> title. For example, a DVD might label its individual audio tracks 
> 'de' (German), 'fr' (French), and 'es' (Spanish), but the overall 
> title would list "de, fr, es" as its overall audience.</t>

Don't add this text to help me. There are some reasons why this isn't 
quite right. DVDs are sold by region, not language -- to oversimplify. 
fr-FR audience is not going to want the DVD we've targeted for fr-CA. Not 
sure this is a best practice or if it's within the scope of this working 
group to listen to me rattle on about why. (Though I know you've already 
done so on other occasions. Cheers.)


>    3.<t>Content items that contain a single language but which 
> require multiple levels of specificity. For example, a library might
> wish to classify a particular work as both Chinese ('zh') and as Min
> Nan ('nan') for audiences capable of appreciating the distinction or
> needing to select content more narrowly.</t></list>

Is this better practice than just deciding that maybe extlang wasn't such 
a bad idea after all? zh-nan does the trick nicely and the order of the 
tags clearly indicates the language hierarchy.

Regards,

Karen Broome



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
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	Title		: Update to the Language Subtag Registry
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This memo defines the procedure used to update the IANA Language Subtag Registry in conjunction with the publication of RFC 4646bis [RFC EDITOR NOTE: replace with actual RFC number], for use in forming tags for identifying languages.  As an Internet-Draft, it also contained a complete replacement of the contents of the Registry to be used by IANA in updating it.  To prevent confusion, this material was removed before publication.

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-1 for the whole extlang, macrolanguage, syntax change fiasco!

Debbie Garside


> -----Original Message-----
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> Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
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> Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-05.txt
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update
> Working Group of the IETF.
>
> 	Title		: Update to the Language Subtag Registry
> 	Author(s)	: D. Ewell
> 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-05.txt
> 	Pages		: 906
> 	Date		: 2008-5-8
>
> This memo defines the procedure used to update the IANA
> Language Subtag Registry in conjunction with the publication
> of RFC 4646bis [RFC EDITOR NOTE: replace with actual RFC
> number], for use in forming tags for identifying languages.
> As an Internet-Draft, it also contained a complete
> replacement of the contents of the Registry to be used by
> IANA in updating it.  To prevent confusion, this material was
> removed before publication.
>
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> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-05.txt
>
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Subject: [Ltru] Charter
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Hi

The Charter states:

---

The working group will also consider how the draft work on
ISO 639-6 may relate to the future development of language tags.

---

I think with the current highlighted problems surrounding the tagging of
spoken and written variations that now would be a good time to introduce
this topic.

For those of you that do not already know, the model for ISO FDIS 639-6 is
hierarchical and incorporates the following:

Alpha4 code, ParentAlpha4 Code, Reference Name

The basic gist of the standard is as follows:

Hierarchical Upper Language Levels (Using ISO FDIS 639-5 where available)
Language (Using 639-3 where available which is mapped to ISO 639-1/2B/2T)
Language Written
Language Written Script1
Language Written Script2 (etc. where required)
Language Spoken
Language Spoken Variants (etc.)

This work is currently going out for a 2 month FDIS vote and the data is
scheduled for completion in two months.

I do not want to hold up the publication of this RFC and do not envisage any
discussion resulting in the inclusion of ISO 639-6 data within the RFC but
please, at least, consider how this work can help.


Best regards


Debbie Garside
Editor ISO FDIS 639-6

CEO/Managing Director
The World Language Documentation Centre and GeoLang Ltd
Corner House
Barn Street
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire SA61 1BW
Wales UK

Tel: 0044 1437 766441
Fax: 0044 1437 766173

Web: http://www.thewldc.org
Web: http://www.geolang.com




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Charter
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I agree that this may have some impact on the discussion of extlang, etc. 
Was this considered in the conference calls at all? 

As the reference ISO 639 standards get increasingly more specific, we may 
have more and more of a need to create hierarchical tagging structures 
that go from least specific tag to most specific. The ISO 639-6 work does 
seem to contain the spoken/written distinctions I need, and the hierarchy 
of languages is useful for reasons mentioned over the last week's 
discussions. Even if we manage to flatten the relationship between ISO 
639-2 and ISO 639-3, will this tactic work for future ISO 639-6? Is this a 
factor?

Best regards,

Karen Broome

ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/08/2008 04:28:19 PM:

> Hi
> 
> The Charter states:
> 
> ---
> 
> The working group will also consider how the draft work on
> ISO 639-6 may relate to the future development of language tags.
> 
> ---
> 
> I think with the current highlighted problems surrounding the tagging of
> spoken and written variations that now would be a good time to introduce
> this topic.
> 
> For those of you that do not already know, the model for ISO FDIS 639-6 
is
> hierarchical and incorporates the following:
> 
> Alpha4 code, ParentAlpha4 Code, Reference Name
> 
> The basic gist of the standard is as follows:
> 
> Hierarchical Upper Language Levels (Using ISO FDIS 639-5 where 
available)
> Language (Using 639-3 where available which is mapped to ISO 
639-1/2B/2T)
> Language Written
> Language Written Script1
> Language Written Script2 (etc. where required)
> Language Spoken
> Language Spoken Variants (etc.)
> 
> This work is currently going out for a 2 month FDIS vote and the data is
> scheduled for completion in two months.
> 
> I do not want to hold up the publication of this RFC and do not envisage 
any
> discussion resulting in the inclusion of ISO 639-6 data within the RFC 
but
> please, at least, consider how this work can help.
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> Debbie Garside
> Editor ISO FDIS 639-6
> 
> CEO/Managing Director
> The World Language Documentation Centre and GeoLang Ltd
> Corner House
> Barn Street
> Haverfordwest
> Pembrokeshire SA61 1BW
> Wales UK
> 
> Tel: 0044 1437 766441
> Fax: 0044 1437 766173
> 
> Web: http://www.thewldc.org
> Web: http://www.geolang.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 


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To: "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>, "Phillips,
	Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:58:36 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists
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> >
> >       a.<t>Metadata about the appropriate audience for a movie
> > title. For example, a DVD might label its individual audio tracks
> > 'de' (German), 'fr' (French), and 'es' (Spanish), but the overall
> > title would list "de, fr, es" as its overall audience.</t>

> Don't add this text to help me. There are some reasons why this isn't
> quite right. DVDs are sold by region, not language -- to oversimplify.
> fr-FR audience is not going to want the DVD we've targeted for fr-CA. Not
> sure this is a best practice or if it's within the scope of this working
> group to listen to me rattle on about why. (Though I know you've already
> done so on other occasions. Cheers.)

I wasn't specifically trying to "solve DVD" with this example, it just seemed like an example of mixed content that everyone could identify with :)  I get that it isn't strictly right.  I could imagine a tagging mechanism that included a scheme like mine and also the region code.  Note that these could be fr-FR and fr-CA if that was helpful.

Anyway, I get that the example might not work for you, however is it a problem for you DVD guys if it was in the draft?  We could find a different example, but I think this is clear to people trying to understand the scenario, even if it doesn't really completely apply to DVD.

- Shawn

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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>, 'LTRU Working Group'
	<ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 20:02:54 -0700
Thread-Topic: solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
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In the case you're describing, it sounds like the text is Mandarin.  It isn't a Chinese macrolanguage, it is "Standard Mandarin".  If it is clearly Mandarin, why recommend tagging it as just "Chinese"?  If I read your statement correctly, it sounds written Chinese is usually Mandarin, not one of 12 other languages.

- Shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:16 PM
To: Shawn Steele; 'LTRU Working Group'
Subject: RE: solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)

Mandarin and Cantonese text are not interchangeable. However, most *text* is actually Standard Mandarin. Written Cantonese is covered by the last sentence about colloquial contexts. I note Mark's quoting of John Jenkins quoting:

--
Meanwhile, I quote from Stephen Matthews and Virginia Yip, _Cantonese: A Comprehensive Grammar_ (London: Routledge, 1994), pp. 5-6:  "Traditionally, Cantonese has been regarded as one of the many Chinese dialects. It does not have a standardized written form on a par with standard written Chinese.  No form of written Cantonese is taught in schools or used in academic settings in any Cantonese-speaking community.  When it comes to the written form, it is standard written Chinese that is taught and learnt.  For educated Cantonese speakers, standard written Chinese is the written form they use in most contexts.  However, in colloquial genres such as novels, popular magazines, newspaper gossip columns, informal personal communications, written Cantonese may be used.  When written Cantonese contains too many exclusively Cantonese words and expressions, non-Cantonese speakers may find it totally unintelligible."
--

We don't say they are interchangeable. But the fact is that most *writing* is in a standard form. When you have a distinction, you tag appropriately.

I also caution strongly: this discussion has tended to focus obsessively on Mandarin/Cantonese as an example pair. But zh-coded-Chinese actually encloses 13 languages in ISO 639-3, many of which have dialects of their own with large speaker populations. Suggesting that "standard written Chinese" documents should get 13 extra tags associated with them "just to be sure" is a non-starter.

I don't diminish the need for specificity when appropriate. But nearly all literate Chinese read 'zh' and the distinction for (say) a Cantonese document is from that form. This is in stark contrast from audio content, where the choice is critical.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 1:54 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: RE: solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
>
> I'm concerned about the first paragraph.  From the earlier discussion
> it sounds like Mandarin and Cantonese written text are NOT
> interchangeable, so I don't think that the "zh" tag is appropriate for
> both, particularly if both are available in a resource.
>
>
> - Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Phillips, Addison
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:59 PM
> To: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
>
> I'd like to propose a series of edits to try and resolve the
> Chinese/macrolanguage thread. In particular, I think clear treatment of
> Chinese tag choice in the section on tag choice makes sense. In a
> separate email I will address Shawn's proposal regarding lists. In this
> email I suggest we replace this text:
>
> --
> In particular, the Chinese family of languages call for special
> consideration. Because the written form is very similar for most
> languages having 'zh' (Chinese) as a macrolanguage (and because
> historically subtags for the various encompassed languages were not
> available), languages such as 'yue' (Cantonese) have historically used
> either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'. This
> means that macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when
> searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language
> negotiation. For example, the information that 'yue' has a
> macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm to fallback
> from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" to "zh-Hans-CN" without losing the
> script and region information (even though the user did not specify
> "zh-Hans-CN" in their request).
> --
>
> ... with this longer text on Chinese:
>
> --
> <t>In particular, the family of languages belonging to the
> macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') call for special consideration. Because
> the written form is very similar for most languages, textual content
> SHOULD use the 'zh' subtag, possibly with a script subtag (indicating,
> for example, the difference between the 'Hant' traditional script and
> the 'Hans' simplified script), region, or other subtags to deliniate
> any additional or local variations in language. Use of specific
> encompassed language subtags is permitted and could make a better
> choice when there are language-specific variations (as when a written
> record is created from the spoken material or in colloquial contexts
> that call for such a differentiation). </t>
>
> <t>For other applications of language tags on Chinese language content,
> the use of the specific encompassed language subtag is RECOMMENDED. For
> example, a song, audio recording, or movie soundtrack in Cantonese
> might use a tag such as "yue-HK", indicating that it uses Cantonese as
> used in Hong Kong, whereas a similar content item in Mandarin Chinese
> might use a tag such as "cmn-HK".</t>
>
> <t> Historically subtags for the various encompassed Chinese languages
> were not available, so  content in these languages have historically
> used either 'zh' or a tag (now grandfathered) beginning with 'zh'.
> These tags were deprecated in the registry upon adoption of this
> document, but remain valid for use. The modern forms are preferred,
> however, since implementations might not be able to associate the older
> tags with the modern equivalents. Implementations are encouraged to
> canonicalize tags for comparison purposes.</t>
>
> <t> Finally, macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when
> searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language
> negotiation.  For example, the information that 'yue' has a
> macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm (<xref
> target="RFC4647"></xref>) to include the range "zh-Hans-CN" as a
> fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" (preserving the script and
> region information) even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN"
> in their request. For the Chinese languages in particular, this
> practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage
> is RECOMMENDED.</t>
> --
>
> In addition, I propose that we remove 'zh'/'cmn' from the list of
> "dominant varieties" in the table in that section. That would seem to
> address most of the concerns about tagging Chinese as I understand them.
> Note that a discussion of text about "lists" is intended to follow.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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To: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
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Debbie Garside scripsit:

> Within ISO FDIS 639-6 data the hierarchy is as follows:
>  
> ineu	 wrld	 Indo-European	
> cltc	 ineu	 Celtic	
> cclc	 cltc	 Celtic Continental 	
> lptc	 cclc	 Lepontic	
> glsh	 cclc	 Gaulish	
> xcg	 glsh	 Cisalpine Gaulish	
> xtg	 glsh	 Transalpine Gaulish	
>  
> If anyone has any comments/better ideas now is the time to say so as I am
> just putting the final touches to the data.

We just don't know enough, and probably never will, to figure out whether
the top-level split in Celtic is between Continental (Gaulish, Lepontic,
Celtiberian) and Insular (Brythonic and Goedelic), as shown here and at
Ethnologue, or whether it's between P-Celtic (Celtiberian and Brythonic)
and Q-Celtic (Gaulish and Goedelic).

So one has to choose.

-- 
John Cowan   http://ccil.org/~cowan    cowan@ccil.org
In might the Feanorians / that swore the unforgotten oath
brought war into Arvernien / with burning and with broken troth.
and Elwing from her fastness dim / then cast her in the waters wide,
but like a mew was swiftly borne, / uplifted o'er the roaring tide.
        --the Earendillinwe
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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2008/5/8 Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>:
> We sometimes don't know exactly what the content is. If you are the author
> presumably you know, but if you aren't, you might not. So it does make sense
> to say:
>
> <data xml:lang="xtg,xcg">{this is some content that is either Cisalpine
> Gaulish or Transalpine Gaulish, or maybe a mixture and I can't figure out
> which.}</data>
>
> or even
>
> <data xml:lang="en,fr">chat</data> <!--from language detection, we know that
> one of these is true, but we don't know more-->
>

I suspect that it would be better to distinguish between audience (or
language scope) and the current text processing language. They are
different things.

Rather than

<data xml:lang="en,fr">chat</data>

something like

<data audience="en,fr"></data>

or

<data audience="en fr"></data>

since CSS3 selectors, if my understanding is correct expect space
separated lists.

could be wrong here though

some how i thing this is more a question of designing the schema or
dtd correctly rather than changing the meaning and use of xml:lang.

Differentiating between what a reference to a language or group of
languages means at anyone point.

Andrew
-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
lang.support@gmail.com
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From: "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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Doug Ewell wrote:

> A language tag denotes one language.

For suitable values for "one" and "language", yes.

> A protocol may define ways to
> combine multiple language tags into one field, as HTTP has done with
> Accept-Language by separating the tags with semicolons.  But that is
> defined by and specific to the protocol.

In the XML context, which is what the discussion is about, there is 
normally no need to consider the possibility of referring to several 
languages in one xml:lang attribute. The reason is that for 
mixed-language content, XML lets (and even encourages, so to say) you to 
use nested markup so that you can say exactly, for example, which parts 
of the text are in English and which are in French. This may require 
additional markup elements for the sole purpose of attaching xml:lang to 
some piece of text, but that's nothing odd. For a truly bilingual 
element (with almost equal amounts of text in two languages), you just 
need to select one language for it and override the language information 
in nested elements.

However, XML has no way to specify different languages for different 
_attributes_ of an element. If an element's attribute is in language 
other than than its content, you can use the workaround of an inner 
element, just for specifying the language of content, but this won't 
work for attributes in different languages. The problem is real because 
nowadays people often put textual data in attributes, as opposite to 
(what I see as) the original idea in generalized markup where attributes 
seldom contain text in a human language.

Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ 

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Jukka K. Korpela 2008-05-09 07.51:
> Doug Ewell wrote:
>
> > A language tag denotes one language.
>
> For suitable values for "one" and "language", yes.
>
> > A protocol may define ways to
> > combine multiple language tags into one field, as HTTP has done with
> > Accept-Language by separating the tags with semicolons.  But that is
> > defined by and specific to the protocol.
>
> In the XML context, which is what the discussion is about, there is =

> normally no need to consider the possibility of referring to several =

> languages in one xml:lang attribute.

But I may still use 'mul'. So it is allready somehow considered.

>  The reason is that for =

> mixed-language content, XML lets (and even encourages, so to say) you to =

> use nested markup so that you can say exactly, for example, which parts =

> of the text are in English and which are in French. This may require =

> additional markup elements for the sole purpose of attaching xml:lang to =

> some piece of text, but that's nothing odd. For a truly bilingual =

> element (with almost equal amounts of text in two languages), you just =

> need to select one language for it and override the language information =

> in nested elements.
>   =


I would rather prefer to say

    <p xml:lang=3D"mul">
        <span xml:lang=3D"fi">22 Pistepirko.</span> =

        <span xml:lang=3D"nn">22  Marih=F8nor.</span>
    </p>

so that I can refer to *the paragraph* via CSS as p:lang(mul){}, rather =

than have to wrap that paragraph in to a div element, each with a =

different language tag,

    <div xml:lang=3D"fi">
    <p xml:lang=3D"nn">
        <span xml:lang=3D"fi">22 Pistepirko.</span>
        <span xml:lang=3D"nn">22  Marih=F8nor.</span>
    </p>
    </div>

which I then would have to refer to/filter out via div:lang(fi) p:lang(nn){}

Then, if in iaddition I could - in a well formed way - could extend the =

'mul' tag to tell which languages it covered, then that would be great.

> However, XML has no way to specify different languages for different =

> _attributes_ of an element. If an element's attribute is in language =

> other than than its content, you can use the workaround of an inner =

> element, just for specifying the language of content, but this won't =

> work for attributes in different languages. The problem is real because =

> nowadays people often put textual data in attributes, as opposite to =

> (what I see as) the original idea in generalized markup where attributes =

> seldom contain text in a human language.
>   =


This point about attributes is a very good point.

The alternative to extend 'mul' is to use several tags, in a legal way. =

But as we allready have seen, then we must specify what that list of =

language tags means: Are they there for the audience or for the content?
-- =

leif halvard silli
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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Hi Doug

yes, this is exactly what I mean.

Thanks.

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:doug@ewellic.org]
> Sent: 09 May 2008 06:00
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Cc: Debbie Garside
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> > ... All that is required within the LSR is an indicator
> that 'ar' is
> > the container for several arabic languages and where it has
> been used
> > historically the related language code 'arb' is considered the most
> > prolific of those contained langauges for matching purposes.
> >
> > I still think adding ;1 to the "dominant" language within the
> > Macrolanguage field would work.  Anyone able to tell me why it
> > wouldn't?
>
> So are you suggesting something like the following?
>
> %%
> Type: language
> Subtag: ar
> Description: Arabic
> Added: 2005-10-16
> Suppress-Script: Arab
> %%
>
> (same as we already have in 4645bis)
>
> %%
> Type: language
> Subtag: acq
> Description: Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic
> Added: 2029-09-09
> Macrolanguage: ar
> %%
>
> (same as we already have in 4645bis)
>
> %%
> Type: language
> Subtag: arb
> Description: Standard Arabic
> Added: 2029-09-09
> Macrolanguage: ar;1
> %%
>
> (note the ";1" added to the Macrolanguage field indicating
> that this encompassed language is considered "dominant,"
> however we define that)
>
> While I'm still very nervous about making "dominant language"
> pronouncements in the Registry for several reasons, I have to
> say that, structurally speaking, this is the most palatable
> solution I've seen yet.  I'm not sure about the ;2 ;3 ;4
> options, but there was no requirement to carry it to that
> level.  What do others think?
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
>
>
>




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Herewith the draft data from ISO FDIS 639-6 for Mandarin:
(I have added some extra notes to assist in column 4)



mycx	 zho	 Mandarin Yue Complex	  	
micr	 mycx	 Mandarin Cluster	  	
cmn	 micr 	 Mandarin Chinese	  	
cmnw	 cmn	 Mandarin Chinese Written	  	
cmnc	 cmnw	 Mandarin Chinese Written Chinese Script	  	
cmns	 cmn	 Mandarin Chinese Spoken	  	
bjgh	 cmn	 Bei-Jing-Hua	 Beijing Dialect	
bjgk	 bjgh	 Bei-Jing-Hua Spoken	  	
bjjg	 bjgk	 Beijing 	Modern Beijing Dialect 	
goyu	 bjgk	 Guo-Yu	 Taiwan Standard Mandarin Chinese	
gyut	 goyu	 Guo-Yu Written	  	
gwcb	 gyut	 Guo-Yu Written Bai-Hua  Chinese  Script	  	
gpml	 gyut	 Guo-Yu Written Pre-Communist Sino-Latin Script	  	
gcyp	 gyut	 Guo-Yu Written Chu-Yin Phonetic Script  	  	
sgoy	 goyu	 Guo-Yu Spoken	  	
huyu	 bjgk	 Hua-Yu	 Singapore Standard Mandarin Chinese	
whuy	 huyu	 Hua-Yu Written	  	
chuy	 whuy	 Hua-Yu Written Chinese Script	  	
shuy	 huyu	 Hua-Yu Spoken	  	
cosc	 bjgk	 Putonghua	 Standard Mandarin Chinese based on original
Beijing dialect	
cscw	 cosc	 Putonghua Written	  	
ccwc	 cscw	 Putonghua Written Chinese Script 	 Putonghua Popular
Literary Model	
ccwl	 cscw	 Putonghua Written Sino-Latin Script	  	
scoy	 cosc	 Putonghua Spoken	  	
jghi	 bjgk	 Jing-Shi	  	
heng	 bjgk	 Huai-Cheng	  	
cofg	 bjgk	 Chao-Feng	  	
dbiu	 cmn	 Dong-Bei-Hua	  	
dhut	 dbiu	 Dong-Bei-Hua Written	  	
dewc	 dhut	 Dong-Bei-Hua Written Chinese Script	  	
dbhn	 dbiu	 Dong-Bei-Hua Spoken	  	
cgji	 dbhn	 Chang-Jin	  	
zafu	 dbhn	 Zhao-Fu	  	
tgxi	 dbhn	 Tong-Xi	  	
ynji	 dbhn	 Yan-Ji	  	
jini	 dbhn	 Jiao-Ning	  	
jifu	 dbhn	 Jia-Fu	  	
nnke	 dbhn	 Nen-Ke	  	
znhu	 dbhn	 Zhan-Hua	  	
jliu	 cmn	 Jiao-Liao-Hua	  	
jiuk	 jliu	 Jiao-Liao-Hua Spoken	  	
qnzu	 jiuk	 Qing-Zhou	  	
dezu	 jiuk	 Deng-Zhou	  	
gihu	 jiuk	 Gai-Huan	  	
jlua	 cmn	 Ji-Lu-Hua	  	
jhak	 jlua	 Ji-Lu-Hua Spoken	  	
flog	 jhak	 Fu-Long	  	
lcag	 jhak	 Luan-Chang	  	
jizn	 jhak	 Ji-Zun	  	
tjin	 jhak	 Tian-Jin	  	
digb	 jhak	 Ding-Ba	  	
laif	 jhak	 Lai-Fu	  	
hnle	 jhak	 Huang-Le	  	
ynsu	 jhak	 Yang-Shou	  	
zaua	 jhak	 Zhang-Huan	  	
juzo	 jhak	 Ju-Zhao	  	
zohe	 jhak	 Zhao-Shen	  	
xieg	 jhak	 Xing-Heng	  	
loti	 jhak	 Liao-Tai	  	
zgyu	 cmn	 Zhong-Yuan-Hua	  	
zyuk	 zgyu	 Zhong-Yuan-Hua Spoken	  	
zyjl	 zyuk	 Zhongyuan-Jilu	  	
cine	 zyuk	 Cailu-NE 	  	
zcao	 zyuk	 Zheng-Cao-N	  	
zcoe	 zyuk	 Zheng-Cao-E	  	
zgcc	 zyuk	 Zheng-Cao-C	  	
zgco	 zyuk	 Zheng-Cao-W	  	
xinb	 zyuk	 Xin-Beng	  	
ccal	 zyuk	 Cailu-SW	  	
lxue	 zyuk	 Luoxu-E	  	
lxuc	 zyuk	 Luoxu-C	  	
loxu	 zyuk	 Luoxu-W 	  	
hazu	 zyuk	 Hai-Zhou 	  	
piya	 zyuk	 Ping-Yang	  	
jigz	 zyuk	 Jiang-Zhou	  	
guzg	 zyuk	 Guan-Zhong	  	
qlon	 zyuk	 Qin-Long	  	
lozg	 zyuk	 Long-Zhong	  	
njig	 zyuk	 Nan-Jiang	  	
zgyt	 zyuk	 Zhong-Yuan-'Settlers'-S	  	
lyiu	 cmn	 Lan-Yin-Hua	  	
liue	 lyiu	 Lan-Yin-Hua Spoken	  	
yiwu	 liue	 Yin-Wu	  	
jicg	 liue	 Jin-Cheng	  	
hhxi	 liue	 He-Xi	  	
biin	 liue	 Bei-Jiang-N	  	
xghu	 cmn	 Xinan-Guan-Hua	  	
xuuk	 xghu	 Xinan-Guan-Hua Spoken	  	
wuia	 xuuk	 Wu-Tian	  	
ebbi	 xuuk	 E-Bei	  	
cahe	 xuuk	 Chang-He	  	
cyuc	 xuuk	 Chengyu-C	  	
cyse	 xuuk	 Chengyu-SE	  	
mjic	 xuuk	 Minjiang-C	  	
mjgn	 xuuk	 Minjiang-N 	  	
mige	 xuuk	 Minjiang-E 	  	
miji	 xuuk	 Minjiang-SW 	  	
rfne	 xuuk	 Renfu-NE	  	
refu	 xuuk	 Renfu-S	  	
rnfu	 xuuk	 Renfu-W	  	
yami	 xuuk	 Ya-Mian	  	
liha	 xuuk	 Li-Chuan	  	
bolu	 xuuk	 Bao-Lu	  	
yoli	 xuuk	 Yao-Li	  	
kngu	 xuuk	 Kun-Gui 	  	
qibe	 xuuk	 Qian-Bei	  	
qnan	 xuuk	 Qian-Nan	  	
cnji	 xuuk	 Cen-Jiang	  	
gili	 xuuk	 Gui-Liu	  	
xgnn	 xuuk	 Xiang-Nan	  	
juai	 cmn	 Jiang-Huai	  	
jgik	 juai	 Jiang-Huai Spoken	  	
hxao	 jgik	 Huang-Xiao-W 	  	
haxi	 jgik	 Huang-Xiao-NE	  	
hagx	 jgik	 Huang-Xiao-SE 	  	
hnco	 jgik	 Hong-Chao-N	  	
hogh	 jgik	 Hong-Chao-S	  	
taru	 jgik	 Tairu	  	

Best regards
 
Debbie
 





> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> Sent: 09 May 2008 00:34
> To: ltru@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Charter
>
> I agree that this may have some impact on the discussion of
> extlang, etc.
> Was this considered in the conference calls at all?
>
> As the reference ISO 639 standards get increasingly more
> specific, we may have more and more of a need to create
> hierarchical tagging structures that go from least specific
> tag to most specific. The ISO 639-6 work does seem to contain
> the spoken/written distinctions I need, and the hierarchy of
> languages is useful for reasons mentioned over the last
> week's discussions. Even if we manage to flatten the
> relationship between ISO
> 639-2 and ISO 639-3, will this tactic work for future ISO
> 639-6? Is this a factor?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>
> ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/08/2008 04:28:19 PM:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > The Charter states:
> >
> > ---
> >
> > The working group will also consider how the draft work on
> ISO 639-6
> > may relate to the future development of language tags.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > I think with the current highlighted problems surrounding
> the tagging
> > of spoken and written variations that now would be a good time to
> > introduce this topic.
> >
> > For those of you that do not already know, the model for ISO FDIS
> > 639-6
> is
> > hierarchical and incorporates the following:
> >
> > Alpha4 code, ParentAlpha4 Code, Reference Name
> >
> > The basic gist of the standard is as follows:
> >
> > Hierarchical Upper Language Levels (Using ISO FDIS 639-5 where
> available)
> > Language (Using 639-3 where available which is mapped to ISO
> 639-1/2B/2T)
> > Language Written
> > Language Written Script1
> > Language Written Script2 (etc. where required) Language Spoken
> > Language Spoken Variants (etc.)
> >
> > This work is currently going out for a 2 month FDIS vote
> and the data
> > is scheduled for completion in two months.
> >
> > I do not want to hold up the publication of this RFC and do not
> > envisage
> any
> > discussion resulting in the inclusion of ISO 639-6 data
> within the RFC
> but
> > please, at least, consider how this work can help.
> >
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> >
> > Debbie Garside
> > Editor ISO FDIS 639-6
> >
> > CEO/Managing Director
> > The World Language Documentation Centre and GeoLang Ltd
> Corner House
> > Barn Street Haverfordwest Pembrokeshire SA61 1BW Wales UK
> >
> > Tel: 0044 1437 766441
> > Fax: 0044 1437 766173
> >
> > Web: http://www.thewldc.org
> > Web: http://www.geolang.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
> 


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<BODY><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=3D2>Herewith the draft data from ISO FDIS 639-6 for =
Mandarin:<BR>(I=20
have added some extra notes to assist in column 4)<BR><BR>
<TABLE style=3D"WIDTH: 500pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=3D0 =

cellPadding=3D0 width=3D666 border=3D0 x:str>
  <COLGROUP>
  <COL style=3D"WIDTH: 48pt" span=3D2 width=3D64>
  <COL style=3D"WIDTH: 202pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: =
9837"=20
  span=3D2 width=3D269>
  <TBODY>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; =
mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-irow: 0; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; =
BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>mycx</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zho</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Mandarin Yue Complex</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: 1; =
page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>micr</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>mycx</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Mandarin Cluster</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: 2; =
page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 x:str=3D"micr "><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>micr<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Mandarin Chinese</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: 3; =
page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmnw</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Mandarin Chinese Written</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: 4; =
page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmnc</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmnw</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Mandarin Chinese Written Chinese =
Script</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: 5; =
page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmns</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Mandarin Chinese Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: 6; =
page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjgh</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Bei-Jing-Hua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Beijing Dialect</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: 7; =
page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjgk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjgh</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Bei-Jing-Hua Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: 8; =
page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjjg</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjgk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><?xml:namespace=20
      prefix =3D st1 ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
/><st1:City=20
      w_x003a_st=3D"on"><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><st1:place=20
      w_x003a_st=3D"on">Beijing</st1:place> =
</FONT></FONT></st1:City></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Modern Beijing Dialect "><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
face=3DArial>Modern=20
      Beijing Dialect<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: 9; =
page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>goyu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjgk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Guo-Yu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Taiwan Standard Mandarin =
Chinese</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
10; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>gyut</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>goyu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Guo-Yu Written</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
11; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>gwcb</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>gyut</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Guo-Yu Written Bai-Hua<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Chinese<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>Script</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
12; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>gpml</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>gyut</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Guo-Yu Written Pre-Communist Sino-Latin=20
      Script</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
13; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>gcyp</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>gyut</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Guo-Yu Written Chu-Yin Phonetic Script  "><SPAN =

      lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Guo-Yu Written Chu-Yin Phonetic =
Script<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>sgoy</FONT></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>goyu</FONT></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Guo-Yu Spoken</FONT></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
14; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>huyu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjgk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Hua-Yu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Singapore Standard Mandarin =
Chinese</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
15; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>whuy</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>huyu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DFR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hua-Yu=20
      Written</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DFR=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-ansi-language: FR"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
      size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
16; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>chuy</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>whuy</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DFR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hua-Yu =
Written Chinese=20
      Script</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DFR=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-ansi-language: FR"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
      size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
17; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>shuy</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>huyu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Hua-Yu Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DFR=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-ansi-language: FR"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
      size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
18; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cosc</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjgk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Putonghua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DFR=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-ansi-language: FR"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
      size=3D2>Standard Mandarin Chinese based on original Beijing=20
      dialect</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
19; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cscw</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cosc</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Putonghua Written</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
20; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>ccwc</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cscw</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Putonghua Written Chinese Script "><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Putonghua Written Chinese Script<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Putonghua Popular Literary =
Model</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
21; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>ccwl</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cscw</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Putonghua Written Sino-Latin =
Script</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>scoy</FONT></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>cosc</FONT></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Putonghua Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
22; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jghi</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjgk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Jing-Shi</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
23; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>heng</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjgk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Huai-Cheng</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
24; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cofg</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bjgk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Chao-Feng</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
25; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbiu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Dong-Bei-Hua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
26; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dhut</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbiu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Dong-Bei-Hua Written</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
27; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dewc</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dhut</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Dong-Bei-Hua Written Chinese =
Script</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
28; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbhn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbiu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Dong-Bei-Hua Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
29; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cgji</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbhn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Chang-Jin</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
30; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zafu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbhn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zhao-Fu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
31; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>tgxi</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbhn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Tong-Xi</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
32; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>ynji</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbhn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Yan-Ji</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
33; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jini</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbhn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Jiao-Ning</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
34; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jifu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbhn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Jia-Fu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
35; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>nnke</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbhn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Nen-Ke</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
36; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>znhu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dbhn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zhan-Hua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
37; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jliu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Jiao-Liao-Hua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
38; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jiuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jliu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Jiao-Liao-Hua Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
39; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>qnzu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jiuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Qing-Zhou</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
40; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>dezu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jiuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Deng-Zhou</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
41; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>gihu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jiuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Gai-Huan</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
42; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jlua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Ji-Lu-Hua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
43; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jlua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Ji-Lu-Hua Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
44; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>flog</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Fu-Long</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
45; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>lcag</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Luan-Chang</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
46; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jizn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Ji-Zun</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
47; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>tjin</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Tian-Jin</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
48; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>digb</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Ding-Ba</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
49; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>laif</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Lai-Fu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
50; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>hnle</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Huang-Le</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
51; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>ynsu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Yang-Shou</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
52; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zaua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zhang-Huan</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
53; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>juzo</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Ju-Zhao</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
54; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zohe</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zhao-Shen</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
55; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xieg</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Xing-Heng</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
56; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>loti</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jhak</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Liao-Tai</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
57; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zgyu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zhong-Yuan-Hua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
58; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zgyu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zhong-Yuan-Hua Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
59; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyjl</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zhongyuan-Jilu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
60; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cine</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Cailu-NE "><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Cailu-NE<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
61; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zcao</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zheng-Cao-N</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
62; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zcoe</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zheng-Cao-E</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
63; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zgcc</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zheng-Cao-C</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
64; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zgco</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zheng-Cao-W</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
65; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xinb</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Xin-Beng</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
66; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>ccal</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Cailu-SW</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
67; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>lxue</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Luoxu-E</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
68; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>lxuc</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Luoxu-C</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
69; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>loxu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Luoxu-W "><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Luoxu-W<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
70; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>hazu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Hai-Zhou "><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Hai-Zhou<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
71; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>piya</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Ping-Yang</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
72; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jigz</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Jiang-Zhou</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
73; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>guzg</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Guan-Zhong</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
74; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>qlon</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Qin-Long</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
75; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>lozg</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Long-Zhong</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
76; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>njig</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Nan-Jiang</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
77; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zgyt</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>zyuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Zhong-Yuan-'Settlers'-S</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
78; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>lyiu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Lan-Yin-Hua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
79; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>liue</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>lyiu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Lan-Yin-Hua Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
80; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>yiwu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>liue</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Yin-Wu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
81; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jicg</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>liue</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Jin-Cheng</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
82; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>hhxi</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>liue</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>He-Xi</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
83; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>biin</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>liue</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Bei-Jiang-N</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
84; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xghu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Xinan-Guan-Hua</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
85; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xghu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Xinan-Guan-Hua Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
86; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>wuia</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Wu-Tian</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
87; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>ebbi</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>E-Bei</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
88; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cahe</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Chang-He</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
89; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cyuc</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Chengyu-C</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
90; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cyse</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Chengyu-SE</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
91; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>mjic</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Minjiang-C</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
92; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>mjgn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Minjiang-N "><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Minjiang-N<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
93; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>mige</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Minjiang-E "><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Minjiang-E<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
94; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>miji</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Minjiang-SW "><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Minjiang-SW<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
95; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>rfne</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Renfu-NE</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
96; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>refu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Renfu-S</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
97; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>rnfu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Renfu-W</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
98; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>yami</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Ya-Mian</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
99; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>liha</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Li-Chuan</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
100; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>bolu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Bao-Lu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
101; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>yoli</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Yao-Li</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
102; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>kngu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Kun-Gui "><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Kun-Gui<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
103; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>qibe</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Qian-Bei</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
104; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>qnan</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Qian-Nan</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
105; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cnji</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Cen-Jiang</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
106; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>gili</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Gui-Liu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
107; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xgnn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>xuuk</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Xiang-Nan</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
108; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>juai</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>cmn</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Jiang-Huai</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
109; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jgik</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>juai</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Jiang-Huai Spoken</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
110; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 14.1pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>hxao</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
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bold"><FONT=20
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      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
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bold"><FONT=20
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  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
111; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
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BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
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    width=3D64><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jgik</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
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    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Huang-Xiao-NE</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
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BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"=20
    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
  <TR=20
  style=3D"HEIGHT: 14.1pt; mso-height-source: userset; mso-yfti-irow: =
112; page-break-inside: avoid"=20
  height=3D18>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 =
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    width=3D64 height=3D18><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
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    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
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bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jgik</FONT></SPAN></TD>
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BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
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    width=3D269 x:str=3D"Huang-Xiao-SE "><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Huang-Xiao-SE<SPAN=20
      style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></TD>
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    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
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      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
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      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
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BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
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bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR>
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bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>jgik</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
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      style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Tairu</FONT></SPAN></TD>
    <TD class=3Dxl24=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 202pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8 0.5pt solid; =
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    width=3D269><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: =
bold"><FONT=20
      face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></FONT></P>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Best regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Debbie</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From:=20
ltru-bounces@ietf.org [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org</A>] =
On<BR>&gt;=20
Behalf Of Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<BR>&gt; Sent: 09 May 2008 =
00:34<BR>&gt; To:=20
ltru@ietf.org<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Charter<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I =
agree that=20
this may have some impact on the discussion of<BR>&gt; extlang, =
etc.<BR>&gt; Was=20
this considered in the conference calls at all?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; As the =
reference=20
ISO 639 standards get increasingly more<BR>&gt; specific, we may have =
more and=20
more of a need to create<BR>&gt; hierarchical tagging structures that go =
from=20
least specific<BR>&gt; tag to most specific. The ISO 639-6 work does =
seem to=20
contain<BR>&gt; the spoken/written distinctions I need, and the =
hierarchy=20
of<BR>&gt; languages is useful for reasons mentioned over the =
last<BR>&gt;=20
week's discussions. Even if we manage to flatten the<BR>&gt; =
relationship=20
between ISO<BR>&gt; 639-2 and ISO 639-3, will this tactic work for =
future=20
ISO<BR>&gt; 639-6? Is this a factor?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Best=20
regards,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Karen Broome<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; =
ltru-bounces@ietf.org=20
wrote on 05/08/2008 04:28:19 PM:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Hi<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; The Charter states:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; ---<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
The working group will also consider how the draft work on<BR>&gt; ISO=20
639-6<BR>&gt; &gt; may relate to the future development of language=20
tags.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; ---<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I think =
with the=20
current highlighted problems surrounding<BR>&gt; the tagging<BR>&gt; =
&gt; of=20
spoken and written variations that now would be a good time to<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
introduce this topic.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; For those of you that do =
not=20
already know, the model for ISO FDIS<BR>&gt; &gt; 639-6<BR>&gt; =
is<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
hierarchical and incorporates the following:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
Alpha4=20
code, ParentAlpha4 Code, Reference Name<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; The =
basic gist=20
of the standard is as follows:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Hierarchical =
Upper=20
Language Levels (Using ISO FDIS 639-5 where<BR>&gt; available)<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
Language (Using 639-3 where available which is mapped to ISO<BR>&gt;=20
639-1/2B/2T)<BR>&gt; &gt; Language Written<BR>&gt; &gt; Language Written =

Script1<BR>&gt; &gt; Language Written Script2 (etc. where required) =
Language=20
Spoken<BR>&gt; &gt; Language Spoken Variants (etc.)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
This work is currently going out for a 2 month FDIS vote<BR>&gt; and the =

data<BR>&gt; &gt; is scheduled for completion in two months.<BR>&gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I do not want to hold up the publication of this RFC =
and do=20
not<BR>&gt; &gt; envisage<BR>&gt; any<BR>&gt; &gt; discussion resulting =
in the=20
inclusion of ISO 639-6 data<BR>&gt; within the RFC<BR>&gt; but<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
please, at least, consider how this work can help.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Best regards<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
Debbie=20
Garside<BR>&gt; &gt; Editor ISO FDIS 639-6<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
CEO/Managing Director<BR>&gt; &gt; The World Language Documentation =
Centre and=20
GeoLang Ltd<BR>&gt; Corner House<BR>&gt; &gt; Barn Street Haverfordwest=20
Pembrokeshire SA61 1BW Wales UK<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Tel: 0044 1437 =

766441<BR>&gt; &gt; Fax: 0044 1437 766173<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Web: =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.thewldc.org">http://www.thewldc.org</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =
Web: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.geolang.com">http://www.geolang.com</A><BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
_______________________________________________<BR>&gt; &gt; Ltru =
mailing=20
list<BR>&gt; &gt; Ltru@ietf.org<BR>&gt; &gt; <A=20
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/ltru</A><BR>&gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
_______________________________________________<BR>&gt; Ltru mailing=20
list<BR>&gt; Ltru@ietf.org<BR>&gt; <A=20
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/ltru</A><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri May  9 07:32:49 2008
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Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 16:00:16 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Charter
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Debbie Garside 2008-05-09 13.02:
> Herewith the draft data from ISO FDIS 639-6 for Mandarin:
> (I have added some extra notes to assist in column 4)
>   

> gpml	 gyut	 Guo-Yu Written Pre-Communist Sino-Latin Script

I would like to suggest that that draft should say "pre People Republic 
of China" or "pre PRC" instad of "Pre-Communist.

This stems from my observeration that in Russia it is preferred to say 
"Soviet period" instead of "communist period".

It is even more precise to say "Soviet" and "PRC" instead of "communist".

-- 
leif halvard silli
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To: "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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does => does not allow one to

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
wrote:

> Because the xml:lang only takes a single language tag, XML does easily mark
> one section of text as being equally well represented by either of two
> language tags. That is, it assumes that you know what the language is, and
> can pinpoint it as having exactly one tag. Reality is a bit messier... And a
> fallback to mul is useless, since that gives you far less information.
>
> This isn't formally a problem with XML, since you can always design a
> format that bundles together multiple xml:langs as applying to some text,
> and you also don't have to use xml:lang to mark text: you can use your own
> attribute, containing a list. But it would be less clumsy if xml:lang took a
> list, or we had xml:langs that did.
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Jukka K. Korpela <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi>
> wrote:
>
>> Doug Ewell wrote:
>>
>> > A language tag denotes one language.
>>
>> For suitable values for "one" and "language", yes.
>>
>> > A protocol may define ways to
>> > combine multiple language tags into one field, as HTTP has done with
>> > Accept-Language by separating the tags with semicolons.  But that is
>> > defined by and specific to the protocol.
>>
>> In the XML context, which is what the discussion is about, there is
>> normally no need to consider the possibility of referring to several
>> languages in one xml:lang attribute. The reason is that for
>> mixed-language content, XML lets (and even encourages, so to say) you to
>> use nested markup so that you can say exactly, for example, which parts
>> of the text are in English and which are in French. This may require
>> additional markup elements for the sole purpose of attaching xml:lang to
>> some piece of text, but that's nothing odd. For a truly bilingual
>> element (with almost equal amounts of text in two languages), you just
>> need to select one language for it and override the language information
>> in nested elements.
>>
>> However, XML has no way to specify different languages for different
>> _attributes_ of an element. If an element's attribute is in language
>> other than than its content, you can use the workaround of an inner
>> element, just for specifying the language of content, but this won't
>> work for attributes in different languages. The problem is real because
>> nowadays people often put textual data in attributes, as opposite to
>> (what I see as) the original idea in generalized markup where attributes
>> seldom contain text in a human language.
>>
>> Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
>> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ <http://www.cs.tut.fi/%7Ejkorpela/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark




-- 
Mark

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does =&gt; does not allow one to<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Mark Davis &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Because the xml:lang only takes a single language tag, XML does easily mark one section of text as being equally well represented by either of two language tags. That is, it assumes that you know what the language is, and can pinpoint it as having exactly one tag. Reality is a bit messier... And a fallback to mul is useless, since that gives you far less information.<br>

<br>This isn&#39;t formally a problem with XML, since you can always design a format that bundles together multiple xml:langs as applying to some text, and you also don&#39;t have to use xml:lang to mark text: you can use your own attribute, containing a list. But it would be less clumsy if xml:lang took a list, or we had xml:langs that did.<br>


<br>Mark<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Jukka K. Korpela &lt;<a href="mailto:jkorpela@cs.tut.fi" target="_blank">jkorpela@cs.tut.fi</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

<div>Doug Ewell wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; A language tag denotes one language.<br>
<br>
</div>For suitable values for &quot;one&quot; and &quot;language&quot;, yes.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; A protocol may define ways to<br>
&gt; combine multiple language tags into one field, as HTTP has done with<br>
&gt; Accept-Language by separating the tags with semicolons. &nbsp;But that is<br>
&gt; defined by and specific to the protocol.<br>
<br>
</div>In the XML context, which is what the discussion is about, there is<br>
normally no need to consider the possibility of referring to several<br>
languages in one xml:lang attribute. The reason is that for<br>
mixed-language content, XML lets (and even encourages, so to say) you to<br>
use nested markup so that you can say exactly, for example, which parts<br>
of the text are in English and which are in French. This may require<br>
additional markup elements for the sole purpose of attaching xml:lang to<br>
some piece of text, but that&#39;s nothing odd. For a truly bilingual<br>
element (with almost equal amounts of text in two languages), you just<br>
need to select one language for it and override the language information<br>
in nested elements.<br>
<br>
However, XML has no way to specify different languages for different<br>
_attributes_ of an element. If an element&#39;s attribute is in language<br>
other than than its content, you can use the workaround of an inner<br>
element, just for specifying the language of content, but this won&#39;t<br>
work for attributes in different languages. The problem is real because<br>
nowadays people often put textual data in attributes, as opposite to<br>
(what I see as) the original idea in generalized markup where attributes<br>
seldom contain text in a human language.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Jukka K. Korpela (&quot;Yucca&quot;)<br>
<a href="http://www.cs.tut.fi/%7Ejkorpela/" target="_blank">http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/</a><br>
</font><div><div></div><div><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div>-- <br><font color="#888888">Mark
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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Because the xml:lang only takes a single language tag, XML does easily mark
one section of text as being equally well represented by either of two
language tags. That is, it assumes that you know what the language is, and
can pinpoint it as having exactly one tag. Reality is a bit messier... And a
fallback to mul is useless, since that gives you far less information.

This isn't formally a problem with XML, since you can always design a format
that bundles together multiple xml:langs as applying to some text, and you
also don't have to use xml:lang to mark text: you can use your own
attribute, containing a list. But it would be less clumsy if xml:lang took a
list, or we had xml:langs that did.

Mark

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Jukka K. Korpela <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi>
wrote:

> Doug Ewell wrote:
>
> > A language tag denotes one language.
>
> For suitable values for "one" and "language", yes.
>
> > A protocol may define ways to
> > combine multiple language tags into one field, as HTTP has done with
> > Accept-Language by separating the tags with semicolons.  But that is
> > defined by and specific to the protocol.
>
> In the XML context, which is what the discussion is about, there is
> normally no need to consider the possibility of referring to several
> languages in one xml:lang attribute. The reason is that for
> mixed-language content, XML lets (and even encourages, so to say) you to
> use nested markup so that you can say exactly, for example, which parts
> of the text are in English and which are in French. This may require
> additional markup elements for the sole purpose of attaching xml:lang to
> some piece of text, but that's nothing odd. For a truly bilingual
> element (with almost equal amounts of text in two languages), you just
> need to select one language for it and override the language information
> in nested elements.
>
> However, XML has no way to specify different languages for different
> _attributes_ of an element. If an element's attribute is in language
> other than than its content, you can use the workaround of an inner
> element, just for specifying the language of content, but this won't
> work for attributes in different languages. The problem is real because
> nowadays people often put textual data in attributes, as opposite to
> (what I see as) the original idea in generalized markup where attributes
> seldom contain text in a human language.
>
> Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ <http://www.cs.tut.fi/%7Ejkorpela/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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Because the xml:lang only takes a single language tag, XML does easily mark one section of text as being equally well represented by either of two language tags. That is, it assumes that you know what the language is, and can pinpoint it as having exactly one tag. Reality is a bit messier... And a fallback to mul is useless, since that gives you far less information.<br>
<br>This isn&#39;t formally a problem with XML, since you can always design a format that bundles together multiple xml:langs as applying to some text, and you also don&#39;t have to use xml:lang to mark text: you can use your own attribute, containing a list. But it would be less clumsy if xml:lang took a list, or we had xml:langs that did.<br>

<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Jukka K. Korpela &lt;<a href="mailto:jkorpela@cs.tut.fi" target="_blank">jkorpela@cs.tut.fi</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

<div>Doug Ewell wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; A language tag denotes one language.<br>
<br>
</div>For suitable values for &quot;one&quot; and &quot;language&quot;, yes.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; A protocol may define ways to<br>
&gt; combine multiple language tags into one field, as HTTP has done with<br>
&gt; Accept-Language by separating the tags with semicolons. &nbsp;But that is<br>
&gt; defined by and specific to the protocol.<br>
<br>
</div>In the XML context, which is what the discussion is about, there is<br>
normally no need to consider the possibility of referring to several<br>
languages in one xml:lang attribute. The reason is that for<br>
mixed-language content, XML lets (and even encourages, so to say) you to<br>
use nested markup so that you can say exactly, for example, which parts<br>
of the text are in English and which are in French. This may require<br>
additional markup elements for the sole purpose of attaching xml:lang to<br>
some piece of text, but that&#39;s nothing odd. For a truly bilingual<br>
element (with almost equal amounts of text in two languages), you just<br>
need to select one language for it and override the language information<br>
in nested elements.<br>
<br>
However, XML has no way to specify different languages for different<br>
_attributes_ of an element. If an element&#39;s attribute is in language<br>
other than than its content, you can use the workaround of an inner<br>
element, just for specifying the language of content, but this won&#39;t<br>
work for attributes in different languages. The problem is real because<br>
nowadays people often put textual data in attributes, as opposite to<br>
(what I see as) the original idea in generalized markup where attributes<br>
seldom contain text in a human language.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Jukka K. Korpela (&quot;Yucca&quot;)<br>
<a href="http://www.cs.tut.fi/%7Ejkorpela/" target="_blank">http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/</a><br>
</font><div><div></div><div><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 09:03:04 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists
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Actually, one more:

e.<t>A single tag needs to be replaced by multiple tags in order to remove
deprecated tags, or get more precise results than macrolanguages. Example:
"sr-CS" => "sr-RS, sr-ME"; "sh" => "sr, bs, hr"</t>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
wrote:

> This looks like a good direction (I have to be brief; won't have time to
> look at these in detail until Monday).
>
> The one thing I would add, which in certain ways is the most important, is
>
>      d.<t>A document or segment of text that could equally well be tagged
> by each of two or more tags. This can happen where the exact language is not
> known, or multiple tags could validly apply.</t>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I took Shawn's suggestion below and Peter's email about use cases for
>> lists and molded them into a single, new, section for draft-14. At first I
>> wanted to include them into the section on choice or on meaning, but it just
>> doesn't fit into either. Here's my proposed text:
>>
>> --
>> <section anchor="lists" title="Lists of Languages">
>>
>> <t>In some applications, a single content item might best be associated
>> with more than one language tag. Examples of such a usage include:<list
>> style="symbols">
>>
>>   1.<t>A language priority list <xref target="RFC4647"></xref> describing
>> a user's language preferences. This is a (possibly weighted) list of
>> potentially-unrelated varieties, expressing a preference, rather than as a
>> declaration about actual content.</t>
>>
>>   2.<t>Content items that contain multiple, distinct varieties. Often this
>> is used to indicate an appropriate audience for a given content item when
>> multiple choices might be appropriate. Examples of this could include: <list
>> style="symbols">
>>
>>      a.<t>Metadata about the appropriate audience for a movie title. For
>> example, a DVD might label its individual audio tracks 'de' (German), 'fr'
>> (French), and 'es' (Spanish), but the overall title would list "de, fr, es"
>> as its overall audience.</t>
>>
>>      b.<t>A French/English, English/French dictionary tagged as both "en"
>> and "fr" to specify that it applies equally to French and English</t>
>>
>>      c.<t>A side-by-side or interlinear translation of a document, as is
>> commonly done with classical works in Latin or Greek</t>
>>
>>   </list> </t>
>>
>>   3.<t>Content items that contain a single language but which require
>> multiple levels of specificity. For example, a library might wish to
>> classify a particular work as both Chinese ('zh') and as Min Nan ('nan') for
>> audiences capable of appreciating the distinction or needing to select
>> content more narrowly.</t></list>
>>
>> </t>
>>
>> </section>
>> --
>>
>> I can't seem to think of any normative language to wrap around this that
>> isn't already handled by the choice or meaning sections or by 4647.
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> Addison
>>
>> Addison Phillips
>> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>>
>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>> It is an architecture.
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:00 PM
>> > To: Shawn Steele; Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
>> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
>> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
>> >
>> > I'm thinking something like this:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 4.6? Lists of Language Tags
>> >
>> > In some applications a list of language tags is necessary, such as a
>> > user's language priority list, when multiple language apply equally to
>> > the same content, or when matching of older tags is expected.  Some
>> > example scenarios are:
>> >
>> > * A user could specify "en, de, jp" for a language priority list as
>> > described in RFC4647bis
>> > * A French/English, English/French dictionary could be tagged as "en,
>> > fr" to specify that it applies equally to French and English
>> > * A DVD could be tagged as having audio content in "en, fr" and
>> > subtitles in "en, fr, es, jp".
>> > * An English translation of a classical work could have the code "la,
>> > en".
>> > * Mandarin content expected to interchange with existing systems could
>> > be tagged "cmn, zh".
>> >
>> > Standards and protocols specifying this RFC MAY choose to allow lists
>> > of language tags.  Such standards and protocols MUST NOT be required to
>> > allow lists of language tags if not appropriate.
>> >
>> > If a list of language tags is used it MUST contain well formed language
>> > tags and strongly RECOMMENDED that those tags are chosen using the
>> > Choice of Language Tag guidelines.
>> >
>> > When a list of language tags is used, the protocols MUST specify
>> > whether or not an order is or is not implied or required for the list.
>> >
>> > When a collection of content, such as a DVD with multiple tracks, can
>> > be tagged with multiple languages, the collection SHOULD be tagged with
>> > the appropriate language tags, and the individual pieces of content
>> > SHOULD be tagged with a single language tag from the list of the
>> > collection.
>> >
>> > Recommendations for searching and matching of lists of language tags
>> > should be addressed in the successor to RFC 4647
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark




-- 
Mark

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Actually, one more:<br><br>e.&lt;t&gt;A single tag needs to be replaced by multiple tags in order to remove deprecated tags, or get more precise results than macrolanguages. Example: &quot;sr-CS&quot; =&gt; &quot;sr-RS, sr-ME&quot;; &quot;sh&quot; =&gt; &quot;sr, bs, hr&quot;&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Mark Davis &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
This looks like a good direction (I have to be brief; won&#39;t have time to look at these in detail until Monday).<br><br>The one thing I would add, which in certain ways is the most important, is <br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; d.&lt;t&gt;A document or segment of text that could equally well be tagged by each of two or more tags. This can happen where the exact language is not known, or multiple tags could validly apply.&lt;/t&gt;<div>
<div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>

<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com" target="_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

I took Shawn&#39;s suggestion below and Peter&#39;s email about use cases for lists and molded them into a single, new, section for draft-14. At first I wanted to include them into the section on choice or on meaning, but it just doesn&#39;t fit into either. Here&#39;s my proposed text:<br>


<br>
--<br>
&lt;section anchor=&quot;lists&quot; title=&quot;Lists of Languages&quot;&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;t&gt;In some applications, a single content item might best be associated with more than one language tag. Examples of such a usage include:&lt;list style=&quot;symbols&quot;&gt;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; 1.&lt;t&gt;A language priority list &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC4647&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; describing a user&#39;s language preferences. This is a (possibly weighted) list of potentially-unrelated varieties, expressing a preference, rather than as a declaration about actual content.&lt;/t&gt;<br>


<br>
 &nbsp; 2.&lt;t&gt;Content items that contain multiple, distinct varieties. Often this is used to indicate an appropriate audience for a given content item when multiple choices might be appropriate. Examples of this could include: &lt;list style=&quot;symbols&quot;&gt;<br>


<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;a.&lt;t&gt;Metadata about the appropriate audience for a movie title. For example, a DVD might label its individual audio tracks &#39;de&#39; (German), &#39;fr&#39; (French), and &#39;es&#39; (Spanish), but the overall title would list &quot;de, fr, es&quot; as its overall audience.&lt;/t&gt;<br>


<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;b.&lt;t&gt;A French/English, English/French dictionary tagged as both &quot;en&quot; and &quot;fr&quot; to specify that it applies equally to French and English&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;c.&lt;t&gt;A side-by-side or interlinear translation of a document, as is commonly done with classical works in Latin or Greek&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &lt;/list&gt; &lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; 3.&lt;t&gt;Content items that contain a single language but which require multiple levels of specificity. For example, a library might wish to classify a particular work as both Chinese (&#39;zh&#39;) and as Min Nan (&#39;nan&#39;) for audiences capable of appreciating the distinction or needing to select content more narrowly.&lt;/t&gt;&lt;/list&gt;<br>


<br>
&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;/section&gt;<br>
--<br>
<br>
I can&#39;t seem to think of any normative language to wrap around this that isn&#39;t already handled by the choice or meaning sections or by 4647.<br>
<br>
Comments?<br>
<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Shawn Steele [mailto:<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com" target="_blank">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:00 PM<br>
&gt; To: Shawn Steele; Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable<br>
&gt; Cc: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to &quot;zh&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m thinking something like this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 4.6? Lists of Language Tags<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In some applications a list of language tags is necessary, such as a<br>
&gt; user&#39;s language priority list, when multiple language apply equally to<br>
&gt; the same content, or when matching of older tags is expected. &nbsp;Some<br>
&gt; example scenarios are:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; * A user could specify &quot;en, de, jp&quot; for a language priority list as<br>
&gt; described in RFC4647bis<br>
&gt; * A French/English, English/French dictionary could be tagged as &quot;en,<br>
&gt; fr&quot; to specify that it applies equally to French and English<br>
&gt; * A DVD could be tagged as having audio content in &quot;en, fr&quot; and<br>
&gt; subtitles in &quot;en, fr, es, jp&quot;.<br>
&gt; * An English translation of a classical work could have the code &quot;la,<br>
&gt; en&quot;.<br>
&gt; * Mandarin content expected to interchange with existing systems could<br>
&gt; be tagged &quot;cmn, zh&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Standards and protocols specifying this RFC MAY choose to allow lists<br>
&gt; of language tags. &nbsp;Such standards and protocols MUST NOT be required to<br>
&gt; allow lists of language tags if not appropriate.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If a list of language tags is used it MUST contain well formed language<br>
&gt; tags and strongly RECOMMENDED that those tags are chosen using the<br>
&gt; Choice of Language Tag guidelines.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When a list of language tags is used, the protocols MUST specify<br>
&gt; whether or not an order is or is not implied or required for the list.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When a collection of content, such as a DVD with multiple tracks, can<br>
&gt; be tagged with multiple languages, the collection SHOULD be tagged with<br>
&gt; the appropriate language tags, and the individual pieces of content<br>
&gt; SHOULD be tagged with a single language tag from the list of the<br>
&gt; collection.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Recommendations for searching and matching of lists of language tags<br>
&gt; should be addressed in the successor to RFC 4647<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div>-- <br><font color="#888888">Mark
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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>
> (note the ";1" added to the Macrolanguage field indicating that this
> encompassed language is considered "dominant," however we define that)
>
> While I'm still very nervous about making "dominant language"
> pronouncements in the Registry for several reasons, I have to say that,
> structurally speaking, this is the most palatable solution I've seen
> yet.  I'm not sure about the ;2 ;3 ;4 options, but there was no
> requirement to carry it to that level.  What do others think?
>

I am completely opposed to including pronouncements of "dominant language" in the registry. I'm not wild about making those pronouncements anywhere and tend to favor removing our statements about it in the drafts.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.



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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, Martin Duerst
	<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 08:44:55 -0700
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Co-chairs,

It seems we have arrived back at an impasse. I still think not having extlang is the correct course.

I would not be opposed to restoring extlang, if that is the consensus of the group and provided it can be done expeditiously.

Can you please institute some process for resolving this issue--either closing off the reappearance of extlang or deciding to restore it and focusing on completing the draft in the next few weeks under that banner.

Addison

Addison Phillips

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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I like the direction that this is going. More on Monday.

MD

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 1:19 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Phillips, Addison scripsit:
>
> > ... with this longer text on Chinese:
>
> +1
>
> --
> "But I am the real Strider, fortunately,"       John Cowan
> he said, looking down at them with his face     cowan@ccil.org
> softened by a sudden smile.  "I am Aragorn son  http://www.ccil.org/~cowan<http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan>
> of Arathorn, and if by life or death I can
> save you, I will."  --LotR Book I Chapter 10
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
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>



-- 
Mark

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I like the direction that this is going. More on Monday.<br><br>MD<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 1:19 PM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Phillips, Addison scripsit:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; ... with this longer text on Chinese:<br>
<br>
</div>+1<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
&quot;But I am the real Strider, fortunately,&quot; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; John Cowan<br>
he said, looking down at them with his face &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a><br>
softened by a sudden smile. &nbsp;&quot;I am Aragorn son &nbsp;<a href="http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan" target="_blank">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><br>
of Arathorn, and if by life or death I can<br>
save you, I will.&quot; &nbsp;--LotR Book I Chapter 10<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri May  9 12:03:12 2008
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Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:41:48 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists
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This looks like a good direction (I have to be brief; won't have time to
look at these in detail until Monday).

The one thing I would add, which in certain ways is the most important, is

     d.<t>A document or segment of text that could equally well be tagged by
each of two or more tags. This can happen where the exact language is not
known, or multiple tags could validly apply.</t>


On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

> I took Shawn's suggestion below and Peter's email about use cases for lists
> and molded them into a single, new, section for draft-14. At first I wanted
> to include them into the section on choice or on meaning, but it just
> doesn't fit into either. Here's my proposed text:
>
> --
> <section anchor="lists" title="Lists of Languages">
>
> <t>In some applications, a single content item might best be associated
> with more than one language tag. Examples of such a usage include:<list
> style="symbols">
>
>   1.<t>A language priority list <xref target="RFC4647"></xref> describing a
> user's language preferences. This is a (possibly weighted) list of
> potentially-unrelated varieties, expressing a preference, rather than as a
> declaration about actual content.</t>
>
>   2.<t>Content items that contain multiple, distinct varieties. Often this
> is used to indicate an appropriate audience for a given content item when
> multiple choices might be appropriate. Examples of this could include: <list
> style="symbols">
>
>      a.<t>Metadata about the appropriate audience for a movie title. For
> example, a DVD might label its individual audio tracks 'de' (German), 'fr'
> (French), and 'es' (Spanish), but the overall title would list "de, fr, es"
> as its overall audience.</t>
>
>      b.<t>A French/English, English/French dictionary tagged as both "en"
> and "fr" to specify that it applies equally to French and English</t>
>
>      c.<t>A side-by-side or interlinear translation of a document, as is
> commonly done with classical works in Latin or Greek</t>
>
>   </list> </t>
>
>   3.<t>Content items that contain a single language but which require
> multiple levels of specificity. For example, a library might wish to
> classify a particular work as both Chinese ('zh') and as Min Nan ('nan') for
> audiences capable of appreciating the distinction or needing to select
> content more narrowly.</t></list>
>
> </t>
>
> </section>
> --
>
> I can't seem to think of any normative language to wrap around this that
> isn't already handled by the choice or meaning sections or by 4647.
>
> Comments?
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:00 PM
> > To: Shawn Steele; Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
> >
> > I'm thinking something like this:
> >
> >
> >
> > 4.6? Lists of Language Tags
> >
> > In some applications a list of language tags is necessary, such as a
> > user's language priority list, when multiple language apply equally to
> > the same content, or when matching of older tags is expected.  Some
> > example scenarios are:
> >
> > * A user could specify "en, de, jp" for a language priority list as
> > described in RFC4647bis
> > * A French/English, English/French dictionary could be tagged as "en,
> > fr" to specify that it applies equally to French and English
> > * A DVD could be tagged as having audio content in "en, fr" and
> > subtitles in "en, fr, es, jp".
> > * An English translation of a classical work could have the code "la,
> > en".
> > * Mandarin content expected to interchange with existing systems could
> > be tagged "cmn, zh".
> >
> > Standards and protocols specifying this RFC MAY choose to allow lists
> > of language tags.  Such standards and protocols MUST NOT be required to
> > allow lists of language tags if not appropriate.
> >
> > If a list of language tags is used it MUST contain well formed language
> > tags and strongly RECOMMENDED that those tags are chosen using the
> > Choice of Language Tag guidelines.
> >
> > When a list of language tags is used, the protocols MUST specify
> > whether or not an order is or is not implied or required for the list.
> >
> > When a collection of content, such as a DVD with multiple tracks, can
> > be tagged with multiple languages, the collection SHOULD be tagged with
> > the appropriate language tags, and the individual pieces of content
> > SHOULD be tagged with a single language tag from the list of the
> > collection.
> >
> > Recommendations for searching and matching of lists of language tags
> > should be addressed in the successor to RFC 4647
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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This looks like a good direction (I have to be brief; won&#39;t have time to look at these in detail until Monday).<br><br>The one thing I would add, which in certain ways is the most important, is <br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; d.&lt;t&gt;A document or segment of text that could equally well be tagged by each of two or more tags. This can happen where the exact language is not known, or multiple tags could validly apply.&lt;/t&gt;<br>

<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I took Shawn&#39;s suggestion below and Peter&#39;s email about use cases for lists and molded them into a single, new, section for draft-14. At first I wanted to include them into the section on choice or on meaning, but it just doesn&#39;t fit into either. Here&#39;s my proposed text:<br>

<br>
--<br>
&lt;section anchor=&quot;lists&quot; title=&quot;Lists of Languages&quot;&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;t&gt;In some applications, a single content item might best be associated with more than one language tag. Examples of such a usage include:&lt;list style=&quot;symbols&quot;&gt;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; 1.&lt;t&gt;A language priority list &lt;xref target=&quot;RFC4647&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; describing a user&#39;s language preferences. This is a (possibly weighted) list of potentially-unrelated varieties, expressing a preference, rather than as a declaration about actual content.&lt;/t&gt;<br>

<br>
 &nbsp; 2.&lt;t&gt;Content items that contain multiple, distinct varieties. Often this is used to indicate an appropriate audience for a given content item when multiple choices might be appropriate. Examples of this could include: &lt;list style=&quot;symbols&quot;&gt;<br>

<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;a.&lt;t&gt;Metadata about the appropriate audience for a movie title. For example, a DVD might label its individual audio tracks &#39;de&#39; (German), &#39;fr&#39; (French), and &#39;es&#39; (Spanish), but the overall title would list &quot;de, fr, es&quot; as its overall audience.&lt;/t&gt;<br>

<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;b.&lt;t&gt;A French/English, English/French dictionary tagged as both &quot;en&quot; and &quot;fr&quot; to specify that it applies equally to French and English&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;c.&lt;t&gt;A side-by-side or interlinear translation of a document, as is commonly done with classical works in Latin or Greek&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &lt;/list&gt; &lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; 3.&lt;t&gt;Content items that contain a single language but which require multiple levels of specificity. For example, a library might wish to classify a particular work as both Chinese (&#39;zh&#39;) and as Min Nan (&#39;nan&#39;) for audiences capable of appreciating the distinction or needing to select content more narrowly.&lt;/t&gt;&lt;/list&gt;<br>

<br>
&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;/section&gt;<br>
--<br>
<br>
I can&#39;t seem to think of any normative language to wrap around this that isn&#39;t already handled by the choice or meaning sections or by 4647.<br>
<br>
Comments?<br>
<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Shawn Steele [mailto:<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:00 PM<br>
&gt; To: Shawn Steele; Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable<br>
&gt; Cc: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to &quot;zh&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m thinking something like this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 4.6? Lists of Language Tags<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In some applications a list of language tags is necessary, such as a<br>
&gt; user&#39;s language priority list, when multiple language apply equally to<br>
&gt; the same content, or when matching of older tags is expected. &nbsp;Some<br>
&gt; example scenarios are:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; * A user could specify &quot;en, de, jp&quot; for a language priority list as<br>
&gt; described in RFC4647bis<br>
&gt; * A French/English, English/French dictionary could be tagged as &quot;en,<br>
&gt; fr&quot; to specify that it applies equally to French and English<br>
&gt; * A DVD could be tagged as having audio content in &quot;en, fr&quot; and<br>
&gt; subtitles in &quot;en, fr, es, jp&quot;.<br>
&gt; * An English translation of a classical work could have the code &quot;la,<br>
&gt; en&quot;.<br>
&gt; * Mandarin content expected to interchange with existing systems could<br>
&gt; be tagged &quot;cmn, zh&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Standards and protocols specifying this RFC MAY choose to allow lists<br>
&gt; of language tags. &nbsp;Such standards and protocols MUST NOT be required to<br>
&gt; allow lists of language tags if not appropriate.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If a list of language tags is used it MUST contain well formed language<br>
&gt; tags and strongly RECOMMENDED that those tags are chosen using the<br>
&gt; Choice of Language Tag guidelines.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When a list of language tags is used, the protocols MUST specify<br>
&gt; whether or not an order is or is not implied or required for the list.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When a collection of content, such as a DVD with multiple tracks, can<br>
&gt; be tagged with multiple languages, the collection SHOULD be tagged with<br>
&gt; the appropriate language tags, and the individual pieces of content<br>
&gt; SHOULD be tagged with a single language tag from the list of the<br>
&gt; collection.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Recommendations for searching and matching of lists of language tags<br>
&gt; should be addressed in the successor to RFC 4647<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri May  9 13:04:25 2008
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Hi Doug

Yes, this was not a swipe at the Editor and I know how hard you have worked
on this but I feel this whole extlang/macrolanguage thing has got out of
hand and it is all looking pretty messy.

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: 09 May 2008 06:06
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-05.txt
>
> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> > -1 for the whole extlang, macrolanguage, syntax change fiasco!
>
> I don't like some of the changes I've had to make since
> draft-4645bis-00, either.  But that's why I'm so vehement
> about referring to myself as an "editor" and not an "author,"
> because draft-4645bis is supposed to reflect what the WG has
> decided upon, not what Doug likes.
>
> Speaking of this, I note that the "canned" RFC references
> that we use in
> xml2rfc:
>
> <!ENTITY rfc4646 PUBLIC ""
> "http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.4646.xml">
> ...
> &rfc4646;
>
> don't list Addison and Mark and me as editors, which I think
> is an error since this is clearly marked in RFCs 4645 through
> 4647.  I wish someone would fix this.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
> _______________________________________________
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>




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Indeed.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]
> Sent: 09 May 2008 06:07
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: 'Mark Davis'; 'John Cowan'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
>
> Debbie Garside scripsit:
>
> > Within ISO FDIS 639-6 data the hierarchy is as follows:
> >
> > ineu	 wrld	 Indo-European
> > cltc	 ineu	 Celtic
> > cclc	 cltc	 Celtic Continental
> > lptc	 cclc	 Lepontic
> > glsh	 cclc	 Gaulish
> > xcg	 glsh	 Cisalpine Gaulish
> > xtg	 glsh	 Transalpine Gaulish
> >
> > If anyone has any comments/better ideas now is the time to
> say so as I
> > am just putting the final touches to the data.
>
> We just don't know enough, and probably never will, to figure
> out whether the top-level split in Celtic is between
> Continental (Gaulish, Lepontic,
> Celtiberian) and Insular (Brythonic and Goedelic), as shown
> here and at Ethnologue, or whether it's between P-Celtic
> (Celtiberian and Brythonic) and Q-Celtic (Gaulish and Goedelic).
>
> So one has to choose.
>
> --
> John Cowan   http://ccil.org/~cowan    cowan@ccil.org
> In might the Feanorians / that swore the unforgotten oath
> brought war into Arvernien / with burning and with broken troth.
> and Elwing from her fastness dim / then cast her in the
> waters wide, but like a mew was swiftly borne, / uplifted
> o'er the roaring tide.
>         --the Earendillinwe
>
>
>
>




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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>, "Phillips, Addison"
	<addison@amazon.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 13:44:00 -0700
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Sorry, I don't know more about Cantonese.  But recently when I suggested th=
at Cantonese was interesting as text so Chinese text can't just be lumped i=
nto zh just because its text, the replies suggested that Cantonese isn't wr=
itten, but rather readers rely on written Mandarin.

Today I bought 2 movies from Costco (sorry Karen, they were Fox, however th=
ey were Blu-Ray).  Both are aimed at the American market, and both have "Ca=
ntonese" subtitles.  (On the back it says English 5.1 DTS, English 5.1, Spa=
nish 5.1 and French 5.1 for voice, and subtitled in English, Spanish, Frenc=
h, Cantonese & Korean.  (No Mandarin at all)

Can someone enlighten me please?  I assume the subtitles are text ;-)

- Shawn


--_000_C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561554BEAC7NAEXMSGC116re_
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<html dir=3D"ltr"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<meta content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6001.18023" name=3D"GENERATOR">
<style title=3D"owaParaStyle">P {
	MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px
}
</style>
</head>
<body ocsi=3D"x">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">Sorry, I don't know more =
about Cantonese.&nbsp; But recently when I suggested that Cantonese was int=
eresting as text so Chinese text can't just be lumped into zh just because =
its text, the replies suggested that Cantonese
 isn't written, but rather readers rely on written Mandarin.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2">Today I bought 2 movies f=
rom Costco (sorry Karen, they were Fox, however they were Blu-Ray).&nbsp; B=
oth are aimed at the American market, and both have &quot;Cantonese&quot; s=
ubtitles.&nbsp; (On the back it says English 5.1 DTS, English
 5.1, Spanish 5.1 and French 5.1 for voice, and subtitled in English, Spani=
sh, French, Cantonese &amp; Korean.&nbsp; (No Mandarin at all)</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2">Can someone enlighten me =
please?&nbsp; I assume the subtitles are text ;-)</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2">- Shawn</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
</body>
</html>

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_______________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:55:03 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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I'm completely opposed.

We spent a long time reviewing all of the issues before coming to a way to
move forward on the extlang issue. There has been no new information that
was not available at the time we made the decision. It was a very long and
involved process. While there are advantages and disadvantages to both
sides, I see no reason to believe that we would come to a different
conclusion, and it would undoubtedly take a similar amount of time before we
come to resolution. I have refrained from responding to those suggesting
that extlang was the solution just so as to not complicate the issue,
because I really don't think we want to go through that process again.

The way that the current text reads, it is absolutely trivial for those who
want to support particular macrolanguage fallbacks to do so, and it does not
end up with the fallback in the many, many cases where it leads to worse
results.

Reopening the issue will delay us for no good reason. We have spent long
enough on 4646bis, it is time to get this revision out.

Mark

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

> Co-chairs,
>
> It seems we have arrived back at an impasse. I still think not having
> extlang is the correct course.
>
> I would not be opposed to restoring extlang, if that is the consensus of
> the group and provided it can be done expeditiously.
>
> Can you please institute some process for resolving this issue--either
> closing off the reappearance of extlang or deciding to restore it and
> focusing on completing the draft in the next few weeks under that banner.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I&#39;m completely opposed. <br><br>We spent a long time reviewing all of the issues before coming to a way to move forward on the extlang issue. There has been no new information that was not available at the time we made the decision.  It was a very long and involved process. While there are advantages and disadvantages to both sides, I see no reason to believe that we would come to a different conclusion, and it would undoubtedly take a similar amount of time before we come to resolution. I have refrained from responding to those suggesting that extlang was the solution just so as to not complicate the issue, because I really don&#39;t think we want to go through that process again. <br>
<br>The way that the current text reads, it is absolutely trivial for those who want to support particular macrolanguage fallbacks to do so, and it does not end up with the fallback in the many, many cases where it leads to worse results.<br>
<br>Reopening the issue will delay us for no good reason. We have spent long enough on 4646bis, it is time to get this revision out.<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Co-chairs,<br>
<br>
It seems we have arrived back at an impasse. I still think not having extlang is the correct course.<br>
<br>
I would not be opposed to restoring extlang, if that is the consensus of the group and provided it can be done expeditiously.<br>
<br>
Can you please institute some process for resolving this issue--either closing off the reappearance of extlang or deciding to restore it and focusing on completing the draft in the next few weeks under that banner.<br>
<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:00:00 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri May  9 17:28:17 2008
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In-Reply-To: <C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561554BEAC7@NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Cantonese
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We subtitle in Cantonese. I have repeatedly mentioned this, but keep 
getting told by this list that written Cantonese doesn't exist or is used 
so infrequently that no one really needs to distinguish this from other 
Chinese languages. 

Written Cantonese is used in situations where it's useful to represent 
conversational language as opposed to more formal writing. One such place 
is in film/video subtitles.  I am somewhat surprised by the choice of 
languages on the disc you picked up, but localization decisions are 
specific to the product. There are some interesting scenarios. If we 
expect that a film will do well in Mexico, for example, we may choose to 
dub/subtitle in Mexican Spanish (specifically) as well as generic "Latin 
American Spanish" copy for the rest of Spanish-speaking Latin America.

Regards,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384




Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> 
Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
05/09/2008 01:44 PM

To
Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>, "Phillips, Addison" 
<addison@amazon.com>
cc
LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
[Ltru] Cantonese






Sorry, I don't know more about Cantonese.  But recently when I suggested 
that Cantonese was interesting as text so Chinese text can't just be 
lumped into zh just because its text, the replies suggested that Cantonese 
isn't written, but rather readers rely on written Mandarin.
 
Today I bought 2 movies from Costco (sorry Karen, they were Fox, however 
they were Blu-Ray).  Both are aimed at the American market, and both have 
"Cantonese" subtitles.  (On the back it says English 5.1 DTS, English 5.1, 
Spanish 5.1 and French 5.1 for voice, and subtitled in English, Spanish, 
French, Cantonese & Korean.  (No Mandarin at all)
 
Can someone enlighten me please?  I assume the subtitles are text ;-)
 
- Shawn
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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The extlang decision was mostly made on  ill-announced conference calls, 
not the list.  While you may feel you discussed this to death, some of us 
feel bullied.  There must be some new information as we've changed the 
draft as a result of recent discussion and our recommendation for the 
world's most popular language. Your recent statement that it would be 
better if "cmn" was deprecated was totally shocking to me. The suggestion 
that "in practice" zh should be treated as Mandarin is an affront to 
non-Mandarin Chinese languages and will create problems.  I believe there 
are at least four or five longtime followers of this work who are not 
totally comfortable with this decision.

I'm starting to think it would be better for my needs if RFC 4646bis was 
never released. While this may not be true for everyone, RFC 4646bis now 
does not add anything that I personally need and it changes the semantics 
of tags I already use. I do not want to see the "zh" tag narrowed "in 
practice" as that would mean I can't trust any "zh" tag to mean what I 
think it means. I'm not even 100% sure where we stand on Chinese languages 
now and this affects how I feel about extlang. I am afraid I will regret 
putting the words "RFC 4646bis or its successor" into numerous A/V 
standards now that I see ISO 639-6 nearing completion and the unexpected 
turn in the direction of this work.

This update could be a death knell for xml:lang as I don't think 
developers will be able to follow these guidelines consistently.

Regards,

Karen Broome
Sony Pictures Entertainment




ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/09/2008 03:55:03 PM:

> I'm completely opposed. 
> 
> We spent a long time reviewing all of the issues before coming to a 
> way to move forward on the extlang issue. There has been no new 
> information that was not available at the time we made the decision.
> It was a very long and involved process. While there are advantages 
> and disadvantages to both sides, I see no reason to believe that we 
> would come to a different conclusion, and it would undoubtedly take 
> a similar amount of time before we come to resolution. I have 
> refrained from responding to those suggesting that extlang was the 
> solution just so as to not complicate the issue, because I really 
> don't think we want to go through that process again. 
> 
> The way that the current text reads, it is absolutely trivial for 
> those who want to support particular macrolanguage fallbacks to do 
> so, and it does not end up with the fallback in the many, many cases
> where it leads to worse results.
> 
> Reopening the issue will delay us for no good reason. We have spent 
> long enough on 4646bis, it is time to get this revision out.
> 
> Mark

> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> 
wrote:
> Co-chairs,
> 
> It seems we have arrived back at an impasse. I still think not 
> having extlang is the correct course.
> 
> I would not be opposed to restoring extlang, if that is the 
> consensus of the group and provided it can be done expeditiously.
> 
> Can you please institute some process for resolving this issue--
> either closing off the reappearance of extlang or deciding to 
> restore it and focusing on completing the draft in the next few 
> weeks under that banner.
> 
> Addison
> 
> Addison Phillips
> 
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Hi Doug

As previously stated, this is what I mean but I think we need to also
identify the "container".

I am looking at future matching scenarios and wondering whether there is a
need to put something further within the Macrolanguage to facilitate
fallback the other way; e.g. 'ar' falls back to 'arb' then 'arq' etc.  It
has been clearly stated that there is an awful lot of digital data tagged
with macrolanguages.  Assuming that the RFC will in some way or another
recommend to tag wisely on this, e.g. 'arb' for standard Arabic, there will
be a future need to match 'ar' with the languages within it.  However, you
first need to identify that 'ar' itself is a Macrolanguage then you can do a
match on: Macrolanguage field = 'ar;1' or 'ar'.

Therefore, the record for 'ar' needs to be updated as follows:

%%
Type: language
Subtag: ar
Description: Arabic
Added: 2005-10-16
Suppress-Script: Arab
Macrolanguage: True
%%

Does that make sense?

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:doug@ewellic.org]
> Sent: 09 May 2008 06:00
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Cc: Debbie Garside
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> > ... All that is required within the LSR is an indicator
> that 'ar' is
> > the container for several arabic languages and where it has
> been used
> > historically the related language code 'arb' is considered the most
> > prolific of those contained langauges for matching purposes.
> >
> > I still think adding ;1 to the "dominant" language within the
> > Macrolanguage field would work.  Anyone able to tell me why it
> > wouldn't?
>
> So are you suggesting something like the following?
>
> %%
> Type: language
> Subtag: ar
> Description: Arabic
> Added: 2005-10-16
> Suppress-Script: Arab
> %%
>
> (same as we already have in 4645bis)
>
> %%
> Type: language
> Subtag: acq
> Description: Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic
> Added: 2029-09-09
> Macrolanguage: ar
> %%
>
> (same as we already have in 4645bis)
>
> %%
> Type: language
> Subtag: arb
> Description: Standard Arabic
> Added: 2029-09-09
> Macrolanguage: ar;1
> %%
>
> (note the ";1" added to the Macrolanguage field indicating
> that this encompassed language is considered "dominant,"
> however we define that)
>
> While I'm still very nervous about making "dominant language"
> pronouncements in the Registry for several reasons, I have to
> say that, structurally speaking, this is the most palatable
> solution I've seen yet.  I'm not sure about the ;2 ;3 ;4
> options, but there was no requirement to carry it to that
> level.  What do others think?
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
>
>
>




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Doug Ewell 2008-05-10 02.58:
> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
>
> >> I think this would be bad. Lists of language (asserting the language 
> >> of a span of content) make processing, parsing, validation, and other 
> >> operations harder. They make it harder for users to tag content, 
> >> since users have to think of potentially more than one tag.
> >
> > That it may be illegal with more thane one tag does not mean that 
> > tools and users must not know about more than one tag in order to 
> > understand what that single tag means.
> >
> > You must for intance know that 'zh' covers 'yum' and vice versa.
>
> This is a non sequitur.  "Knowing about" more than one tag in the sense 
> of matching macrolanguages has nothing to do with a protocol accepting a 
> list of tags where it has previously allowed only one.
>   

I did not speak about "matching macrolanguages". I spoke about the 
opposite - telling which emcompassed language that is meant.  And it 
would be a protocol issue. It is not for us to solve.

> > You must try to figure out what "mul" covers.
>
> Wrong.  Nobody is ever required to figure out what the infinitely vague 
> "mul" covers.
>   

No one are required to find out what 'zh' means either, then. And not 
'no' and not 'ar'.

> >>  This idea that an item is in "multiple languages" is mostly wrong.
> >
> > If it is only "mostly wrong", then it isn't wrong.
>
> This is interesting logic.  

Either there is a usecase or there isn't.

> But I had the same concern as Addison: what 
> practical use is it to state that content is in multiple languages, 
> without specifying which parts of the content are in which languages?
>   

Perhaps I don't want to tell you in which language you should read this 
number: <span lang="mul">123</span>.

Perhaps I want to tag something as multilingual.

Usually, in HTML/XML, what the element start tag says is true about the 
entire element. So if you want to spesificly tag the element as 
multilingual, you can do that  with 'mul'.

> > For instance "mul,en,fr" is a list which says the same thing, becuse 
> > "en" is encompassed in "mul, as is "fr". Likewise "zh,yum,cmn" is a 
> > list of the same thing because 'yum' and cmn' ar contained in 'zh'. 
> > "no,nn" is a list of the same thing."
>
> That's exactly why "mul" is useless -- by definition, it covers 
> everything.  It would be like addressing a letter with "Milky Way 
> Galaxy" at the bottom.
>   

It does not cover everyting. It covers "multiple languages".

> I am categorically opposed to adding anything to RFC 4646bis (or the 
> postulated RFC 4647bis) that expands or further sanctions the use of 
> "mul" in any way. [...]

What we have discussed here  - lately at least - is how a protocol - XML 
- could allow several tags. Not how 'mul' could be extended.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Debbie Garside 2008-05-09 18.31:

> ... facilitate fallback the other way; e.g. 'ar' falls back to 'arb'
> then 'arq' etc.


For Norwegian and HTTP, the future is here now: My browser might ask for 
'no' without getting stuff tagged as 'nn' or 'nb'.

> ... a future need to match 'ar' with the languages within it. However, you
> first need to identify that 'ar' itself is a Macrolanguage 

Amen.

> then you can do a match on: Macrolanguage field = 'ar;1' or 'ar'.
>
> Therefore, the record for 'ar' needs to be updated as follows:
>
> %%
> Type: language
> Subtag: ar
> Description: Arabic
> Added: 2005-10-16
> Suppress-Script: Arab
> Macrolanguage: True
> %%
>
> Does that make sense?
>   

Lot's of sence to me.
-- 
leif halvard silli

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Hi

Can someone contact IETF and let them know that the Outage in Europe is
ongoing.  I am only receiving emails from LTRU in dribs and drabs and the
main IETF list is offline completely.

Thanks

Debbie Garside
CEO

The World Language Documentation Centre
Corner House
Barn Street
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire SA61 1BW
Wales UK

Tel: 0044 1437 766441
Fax: 0044 1437 766173

Web: http://www.thewldc.org




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Leif Halvard Silli 2008-05-10 03.54:
> Doug Ewell 2008-05-10 02.58:
> > Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
> >
> > >> I think this would be bad. Lists of language (asserting the language 
> > >> of a span of content) make processing, parsing, validation, and other 
> > >> operations harder. They make it harder for users to tag content, 
> > >> since users have to think of potentially more than one tag.
> > >
> > > That it may be illegal with more thane one tag does not mean that 
> > > tools and users must not know about more than one tag in order to 
> > > understand what that single tag means.
> > >
> > > You must for intance know that 'zh' covers 'yum' and vice versa.
> >
> > This is a non sequitur.  "Knowing about" more than one tag in the sense 
> > of matching macrolanguages has nothing to do with a protocol accepting a 
> > list of tags where it has previously allowed only one.
> >   
>
> I did not speak about "matching macrolanguages". I spoke about the 
> opposite - telling which emcompassed language that is meant.  And it 
> would be a protocol issue. It is not for us to solve.
>   

Given Debbie's last message about matching from 'ar' to 'arb' to 'arq' 
etc: the matching problem is of course "for us to solve" - as far as it 
is possible.
-- 
leif halvard silli

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+1 on reaching a resolution.

Unlike Mark, I think that some new ideas have surfaced since this was discussed, and I understand Karen's frustration with original discussion.  Like Mark, I'd like to get this thing done because I have deadlines and products that will depend on whatever's decided here.  I want to make sure its something everyone in the industry can feel OK about.

As most of you know, I personally supported extlang.  Very recently, Peter & I (& others here at Microsoft) convinced each other that extlang wasn't really necessary and I felt that the concepts of "lists" would perhaps address my concerns regarding matching.

Since then there has been discussion about the lack of "lists" in some standards/contexts and how that might make it difficult for applications to correlate zh & yue in a document's tags if necessary.  Now I find myself wondering if maybe extlang makes sense again for some cases, but, even worse, it seems to me that zh, cmn AND zh-cmn should be legal to properly tag some documents (Chinese of some form, known Mandarin, and Mandarin that's also acceptable for general Chinese use would be my interpretation).  So now I'm pretty neutral.  I'm reasonably convinced that extlang isn't necessary for my immediate concerns, however if I try to consider Karen's and other scenarios besides my own immediate problems, perhaps extlang would be better.

One thing I'm very certain of is that zh != cmn and the standards shouldn't make an unnecessary correlation that doesn't exist in practice.

I'm also disconcerted that Karen feels this effort may not address her needs because I don't want a disconnect between A/V standards that might be useful for on-demand content and other software on the system.  Everyone's needs certainly aren't the same, but information is getting more and more connected and these things show up in odd places.

- Shawn

________________________________________
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 5:05 PM
To: Mark Davis
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang

The extlang decision was mostly made on  ill-announced conference calls,
not the list.  While you may feel you discussed this to death, some of us
feel bullied.  There must be some new information as we've changed the
draft as a result of recent discussion and our recommendation for the
world's most popular language. Your recent statement that it would be
better if "cmn" was deprecated was totally shocking to me. The suggestion
that "in practice" zh should be treated as Mandarin is an affront to
non-Mandarin Chinese languages and will create problems.  I believe there
are at least four or five longtime followers of this work who are not
totally comfortable with this decision.

I'm starting to think it would be better for my needs if RFC 4646bis was
never released. While this may not be true for everyone, RFC 4646bis now
does not add anything that I personally need and it changes the semantics
of tags I already use. I do not want to see the "zh" tag narrowed "in
practice" as that would mean I can't trust any "zh" tag to mean what I
think it means. I'm not even 100% sure where we stand on Chinese languages
now and this affects how I feel about extlang. I am afraid I will regret
putting the words "RFC 4646bis or its successor" into numerous A/V
standards now that I see ISO 639-6 nearing completion and the unexpected
turn in the direction of this work.

This update could be a death knell for xml:lang as I don't think
developers will be able to follow these guidelines consistently.

Regards,

Karen Broome
Sony Pictures Entertainment




ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/09/2008 03:55:03 PM:

> I'm completely opposed.
>
> We spent a long time reviewing all of the issues before coming to a
> way to move forward on the extlang issue. There has been no new
> information that was not available at the time we made the decision.
> It was a very long and involved process. While there are advantages
> and disadvantages to both sides, I see no reason to believe that we
> would come to a different conclusion, and it would undoubtedly take
> a similar amount of time before we come to resolution. I have
> refrained from responding to those suggesting that extlang was the
> solution just so as to not complicate the issue, because I really
> don't think we want to go through that process again.
>
> The way that the current text reads, it is absolutely trivial for
> those who want to support particular macrolanguage fallbacks to do
> so, and it does not end up with the fallback in the many, many cases
> where it leads to worse results.
>
> Reopening the issue will delay us for no good reason. We have spent
> long enough on 4646bis, it is time to get this revision out.
>
> Mark

> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:
> Co-chairs,
>
> It seems we have arrived back at an impasse. I still think not
> having extlang is the correct course.
>
> I would not be opposed to restoring extlang, if that is the
> consensus of the group and provided it can be done expeditiously.
>
> Can you please institute some process for resolving this issue--
> either closing off the reappearance of extlang or deciding to
> restore it and focusing on completing the draft in the next few
> weeks under that banner.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
> --
> Mark _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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Doug Ewell 2008-05-10 07.17:
> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> > ... However, you first need to identify that 'ar' itself is a 
> > Macrolanguage then you can do a match on: Macrolanguage field = 'ar;1' 
> > or 'ar'.
> >
> > Therefore, the record for 'ar' needs to be updated as follows:
> >
> > %%
> > Type: language
> > Subtag: ar
> > Description: Arabic
> > Added: 2005-10-16
> > Suppress-Script: Arab
> > Macrolanguage: True
> > %%
>
> Why don't we just use the strategy we already have: if at least one 
> language subtag "yyy" exists with a Macrolanguage field of "xxx", then 
> "xxx" is a macrolanguage.

Why would that be any better?

>   This is a bit more work for us programmer 
> types, since it means we have to look through 7,768 language subtags, 
> but that's our problem; everyone else can just use the 
> Registry-searching engines we build.
>   

If BCP47 list doesn't list it, then one can always create alternative 
lists ... Programmer types can develope search tools anyhow. Programmer 
types outside IETF needs hooks and help as well, for developing their 
own tools. (Just look at Apache ...)

There allready is at least one search tool. But I thought the goal was 
to have only one place to look at. The search tools should also not 
appear to give more info than the list. If so, then the searh tool can 
be intrepreted as "interpretative".

Many will just look for Arab, and settle when they find "ar". If the 
goal is to get users to always use as spesific tags as needed/possible, 
then this is not good enough. If the field Macrolanguage answers "true", 
then at least there exist a insentive to try to understand what that as is.

Mentioning that it is a macrolanguage is neutral info. Developers/Users 
must then find out what to do with it - if it can be used for fallback, 
or whatever.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Shawn Steele


> +1 on reaching a resolution.

Ditto.


> Unlike Mark, I think that some new ideas have surfaced since this was
> discussed

I also think there have been some new ideas, though I'm not saying there's been anything compelling us to change past decisions. (What is for me significant new thinking is (a) that it may be useful in some scenarios to declare a language attribute for an info obj with two levels of specificity for cases like zh, and (b) that zh-xxx provides a way to do that using 4646 syntax, meaning that it would be supportable in any BCP47 app.)


> and I understand Karen's frustration with original
> discussion.  Like Mark, I'd like to get this thing done because I have
> deadlines and products that will depend on whatever's decided here.

+1


> One thing I'm very certain of is that zh != cmn and the standards
> shouldn't make an unnecessary correlation that doesn't exist in
> practice.

Very strong +1. I feel we should not be stipulating or even suggesting that zh is the same as cmn, or that cmn should be deprecated. Saying that, in general, zh content is most often Mandarin is fine.


> I
> want to make sure its something everyone in the industry can feel OK
> about...
> I'm also disconcerted that Karen feels this effort may not address her
> needs because I don't want a disconnect between A/V standards that
> might be useful for on-demand content and other software on the system.
> Everyone's needs certainly aren't the same, but information is getting
> more and more connected and these things show up in odd places.

Very strong +1


Peter
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat May 10 08:58:38 2008
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Phillips, Addison
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:59 PM

> I'd like to propose a series of edits to try and resolve the
> Chinese/macrolanguage thread...

I'm just starting to look at this thread. Some of my comments may already be superseded by discussion I haven't yet looked at; if so, sorry in advance for the distraction.


> I suggest we replace this text:
> ... with this longer text on Chinese:
>
> --
> <t>In particular, the family of languages belonging to the
> macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') call for special consideration. Because
> the written form is very similar for most languages, textual content
> SHOULD use the 'zh' subtag

I'm wondering if SHOULD is even too strong. I think I'd feel more comfortable with something along this line:

"Written Mandarin is widely used, and the subtag 'zh' has most often been used for Mandarin textual content. Other Chinese languages are written in some usage contexts, however, and those written forms are distinct from written Mandarin. Because of prevalent use of 'zh' for written Chinese, it will make sense to use 'zh' for written Chinese in many application scenarios, possibly with a script subtag (indicating...), region or other subtags to indicate some variation. Use of specific, encompassed language subtags is permitted, however, and may be a better choice in some application scenarios. For example, Cantonese video subtitles written with Simplified characters could be tagged 'yue-Hans'; or video subtitles in Taiwanese Mandarin written with Traditional characters could be tagged 'cmn-Hant-TW'."



> <t> Finally, macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when
> searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language
> negotiation.  For example, the information that 'yue' has a
> macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm (<xref
> target="RFC4647"></xref>) to include the range "zh-Hans-CN" as a
> fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" (preserving the script and
> region information) even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN"
> in their request. For the Chinese languages in particular, this
> practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage
> is RECOMMENDED.</t>

It would probably make sense to mention the use of language priority lists with 'zh' and also a specific encompassed variety to indicate user preferences.



Peter
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Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian_language

>     Linguists are divided on questions regarding whether the name is
>     deprecated. It is still used, for lack of a more succinct
>     alternative, to denote the "daughter" languages as a collectivity.
>     An alternative name has emerged in official use abroad =97
>     Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (BHS). It is also known in the regional
>     linguistic community as the Central South Slavic diasystem.

The study of Serbian-Croatic at University of Oslo were soon to switch =

name to Bosnia-Kroatian-Serbian.

So, the issue - the macrolanguage - seems indeed to exist, merely under =

- in some "abroad" circles - another name.

Leif Halvard Silli

Leif Halvard Silli 2008-05-10 18.40:
> The Serbocroatian Wikipedia seems to be live and vibrant.
>
> http://sh.wikipedia.org/
>
> Leif Halvard Silli
>
> Peter Constable 2008-05-10 16.48:
>> ...
>> Btw, it=92s not entirely clear to me why sh should be deprecated in our =

>> usage if there is content out there than can appropriately be =

>> described as =93Serbo-Croatian=94.
>>
>> From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com =

>> [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 9:03 AM
>> To: Phillips, Addison
>> Cc: Shawn Steele; Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group
>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists
>>
>> Actually, one more:
>>
>> e.<t>A single tag needs to be replaced by multiple tags in order to =

>> remove deprecated tags, or get more precise results than =

>> macrolanguages. Example: "sr-CS" =3D> "sr-RS, sr-ME"; "sh" =3D> "sr, bs, =

>> hr"</t>
>> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Mark Davis =

>> <mark.davis@icu-project.org<mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org>> wrote:
>> This looks like a good direction (I have to be brief; won't have time =

>> to look at these in detail until Monday).
>
>

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+1

I have to say that there are some strong characters in this forum and if
people are feeling intimidated and bullied this will put other people off
participating.

Also, I think that for such an important issue to be decided during
conference calls means that there is no discussion history to fall back on
and this doesn't help those of us who missed the conference calls.

Those of us who missed the conference calls are feeling intimidated into not
discussing extlang as others within this forum are saying it is dealt with.
Even those who were pro extlang are being 'bullied' into not mentioning it.
This is unacceptable.

Like Karen, I feel that the discussion re 'zh' and Mandarin has got out of
hand - hence my comment on Doug's draft.

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> Sent: 10 May 2008 01:06
> To: Mark Davis
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
>
> The extlang decision was mostly made on  ill-announced
> conference calls, not the list.  While you may feel you
> discussed this to death, some of us feel bullied.  There must
> be some new information as we've changed the draft as a
> result of recent discussion and our recommendation for the
> world's most popular language. Your recent statement that it
> would be better if "cmn" was deprecated was totally shocking
> to me. The suggestion that "in practice" zh should be treated
> as Mandarin is an affront to non-Mandarin Chinese languages
> and will create problems.  I believe there are at least four
> or five longtime followers of this work who are not totally
> comfortable with this decision.
>
> I'm starting to think it would be better for my needs if RFC
> 4646bis was never released. While this may not be true for
> everyone, RFC 4646bis now does not add anything that I
> personally need and it changes the semantics of tags I
> already use. I do not want to see the "zh" tag narrowed "in
> practice" as that would mean I can't trust any "zh" tag to
> mean what I think it means. I'm not even 100% sure where we
> stand on Chinese languages now and this affects how I feel
> about extlang. I am afraid I will regret putting the words
> "RFC 4646bis or its successor" into numerous A/V standards
> now that I see ISO 639-6 nearing completion and the
> unexpected turn in the direction of this work.
>
> This update could be a death knell for xml:lang as I don't
> think developers will be able to follow these guidelines consistently.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
> Sony Pictures Entertainment
>
>
>
>
> ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/09/2008 03:55:03 PM:
>
> > I'm completely opposed.
> >
> > We spent a long time reviewing all of the issues before coming to a
> > way to move forward on the extlang issue. There has been no new
> > information that was not available at the time we made the decision.
> > It was a very long and involved process. While there are advantages
> > and disadvantages to both sides, I see no reason to believe that we
> > would come to a different conclusion, and it would
> undoubtedly take a
> > similar amount of time before we come to resolution. I have
> refrained
> > from responding to those suggesting that extlang was the
> solution just
> > so as to not complicate the issue, because I really don't think we
> > want to go through that process again.
> >
> > The way that the current text reads, it is absolutely trivial for
> > those who want to support particular macrolanguage
> fallbacks to do so,
> > and it does not end up with the fallback in the many, many
> cases where
> > it leads to worse results.
> >
> > Reopening the issue will delay us for no good reason. We have spent
> > long enough on 4646bis, it is time to get this revision out.
> >
> > Mark
>
> > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Phillips, Addison
> <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
> > Co-chairs,
> >
> > It seems we have arrived back at an impasse. I still think
> not having
> > extlang is the correct course.
> >
> > I would not be opposed to restoring extlang, if that is the
> consensus
> > of the group and provided it can be done expeditiously.
> >
> > Can you please institute some process for resolving this issue--
> > either closing off the reappearance of extlang or deciding
> to restore
> > it and focusing on completing the draft in the next few weeks under
> > that banner.
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > Addison Phillips
> >
> > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > It is an architecture.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Hi Doug

Yes, I could see that you could get a reverse match from the languages
containing the Macrolanguage field but I still feel that the actual
macrolanguage should be labelled.  If only to stop people from assuming that
they should tag all Arabic as 'ar'.  If I was tagging a document and looking
for the right code I might well do a search for "Arabic" or "Chinese".  The
result would not identify the subtag as a Macrolanguages and thus I may not
look any further.

For the sake of 50 or so fields, I think it is worth putting a Macrolangauge
field in the Registry - for humans to use :-)

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:doug@ewellic.org]
> Sent: 10 May 2008 06:18
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Cc: Debbie Garside
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> > ... However, you first need to identify that 'ar' itself is a
> > Macrolanguage then you can do a match on: Macrolanguage
> field = 'ar;1'
> > or 'ar'.
> >
> > Therefore, the record for 'ar' needs to be updated as follows:
> >
> > %%
> > Type: language
> > Subtag: ar
> > Description: Arabic
> > Added: 2005-10-16
> > Suppress-Script: Arab
> > Macrolanguage: True
> > %%
>
> This would define the initial set of values for the
> Macrolanguage field as "ak", "ar", "ay", "az", "bal", etc.,
> and also "True".  Is that right?
>
> Why don't we just use the strategy we already have: if at
> least one language subtag "yyy" exists with a Macrolanguage
> field of "xxx", then "xxx" is a macrolanguage.  This is a bit
> more work for us programmer types, since it means we have to
> look through 7,768 language subtags, but that's our problem;
> everyone else can just use the Registry-searching engines we build.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
>
>
>
>




_______________________________________________
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Debbie Garside scripsit:

> I have to say that there are some strong characters in this forum and if
> people are feeling intimidated and bullied this will put other people off
> participating.
> 
> Also, I think that for such an important issue to be decided during
> conference calls means that there is no discussion history to fall back on
> and this doesn't help those of us who missed the conference calls.
> 
> Those of us who missed the conference calls are feeling intimidated into not
> discussing extlang as others within this forum are saying it is dealt with.
> Even those who were pro extlang are being 'bullied' into not mentioning it.
> This is unacceptable.

Well, here's how it looked to me.  The list was stuck, and the conference
calls (which were publicly announced on the list) were an attempt to
move past that stuckness.  Most of those who spoke on those calls were
anti-extlang, with me as the most visible pro-extlang person.

What happened?  Pro-extlang person #1 (I'm not naming names, because
this is not a personal attack) thought the effort was futile, the
antis would win no matter what, so I got no public support there.
Pro-extlang person #2 was suddenly saying there was merit in both sides,
and so I got no public support there either.  Pro-extlang persons #3 and
#4 had other priorities at the time: no fault with that, people *do*
have other priorities.  Pro-extlang person #5 wasn't even on the list
at the time.  That left me, pro-extlang person #6, standing all alone.

And (as I posted here) I came to realize that if I didn't give in, we'd
never have an RFC 4646bis.  And that would be a tragedy.  Because what
really matters is not how we tag Cantonese, but whether we are even able
to tag Aromanian.  What really matters is not the details of the matching
algorithm, but whether the minority languages, the non-official languages,
the non-commercial languages, can be referred to on computers on equal
terms with the rest.


Did I have to give up something I really wanted?  You bet.  But I
publicly surrendered my position, because what matters most to me is
that we get off the pot and get this draft published as an official RFC,
so that things like the XML Recommendation can be updated (actually,
will update themselves) to accept all the tags for the long tail of
languages we are still speaking here on planet Earth.

-- 
John  Cowan  http://ccil.org/~cowan   cowan@ccil.org
'My young friend, if you do not now, immediately and instantly, pull
as hard as ever you can, it is my opinion that your acquaintance in the
large-pattern leather ulster' (and by this he meant the Crocodile) 'will
jerk you into yonder limpid stream before you can say Jack Robinson.'
        --the Bi-Coloured-Python-Rock-Snake
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat May 10 11:15:30 2008
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Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 14:15:25 -0400
To: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> So, the issue - the macrolanguage - seems indeed to exist, merely under 
> - in some "abroad" circles - another name.

There is a dialect continuum spoken in four different countries (with
outliers elsewhere).

There are also two separate standard languages, Serbian and Croatian,
which merged for a while (in the sense that users of each agreed to
accept the orthography and lexis of the other as also instances of their
standard form) and have since separated again.

There is an incipient third standard language, and a label for a fourth
but no actual separate standard yet, perhaps not ever.

Or as a Croat linguist put it to me back in the 1980s.  "I am a native
speaker of Croatian, and therefore have a native command of Serbian
as well."

-- 
An observable characteristic is not necessarily         John Cowan
a functional requirement.  --John Hudson                cowan@ccil.org
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat May 10 11:40:36 2008
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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'John Cowan'" <cowan@ccil.org>
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Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com, 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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Hi John

I can see how this situation has arisen and if it was not causing too many
problems I would probably let it slide as like you I would like to see this
RFC published.

However, the more I hear about macrolanguages and extlang the more I feel it
is important to re-visit this.  I also don't like the change in what was
purported to be a "stable" syntax.

>From what I have seen so far it pretty much seems like a dogs breakfast and,
if published as is, I don't think anyone would know how to tag
macrolanguages or their encompassed entities - we would get a mish mash of
tagging and that is not what standardization is about.  I think after all
these months it is worth delaying for a few more weeks to get it as right
and useful as we possibly can for as many end users as we can.

With a minimum of 6 people saying they would at least like to revisit the
extlang issue, how many within the teleconferences were against the
inclusion of extlang?

Do you consider there are enough people making "noise" about extlang to
revisit this?

BTW there seems to be an 8 hour delivery delay for some of my messages and
others are not being delivered at all - checked the archives and no sign of
them.  Not sure what is happening but it is quite probable that I am missing
half the conversations on the LTRU.  If I don't respond to a message I
probably haven't seen it.

Best

Debbie



> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]
> Sent: 10 May 2008 19:01
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
>
> Debbie Garside scripsit:
>
> > I have to say that there are some strong characters in this
> forum and
> > if people are feeling intimidated and bullied this will put other
> > people off participating.
> >
> > Also, I think that for such an important issue to be decided during
> > conference calls means that there is no discussion history to fall
> > back on and this doesn't help those of us who missed the
> conference calls.
> >
> > Those of us who missed the conference calls are feeling intimidated
> > into not discussing extlang as others within this forum are
> saying it is dealt with.
> > Even those who were pro extlang are being 'bullied' into
> not mentioning it.
> > This is unacceptable.
>
> Well, here's how it looked to me.  The list was stuck, and
> the conference calls (which were publicly announced on the
> list) were an attempt to move past that stuckness.  Most of
> those who spoke on those calls were anti-extlang, with me as
> the most visible pro-extlang person.
>
> What happened?  Pro-extlang person #1 (I'm not naming names,
> because this is not a personal attack) thought the effort was
> futile, the antis would win no matter what, so I got no
> public support there.
> Pro-extlang person #2 was suddenly saying there was merit in
> both sides, and so I got no public support there either.
> Pro-extlang persons #3 and
> #4 had other priorities at the time: no fault with that,
> people *do* have other priorities.  Pro-extlang person #5
> wasn't even on the list at the time.  That left me,
> pro-extlang person #6, standing all alone.
>
> And (as I posted here) I came to realize that if I didn't
> give in, we'd never have an RFC 4646bis.  And that would be a
> tragedy.  Because what really matters is not how we tag
> Cantonese, but whether we are even able to tag Aromanian.
> What really matters is not the details of the matching
> algorithm, but whether the minority languages, the
> non-official languages, the non-commercial languages, can be
> referred to on computers on equal terms with the rest.
>
>
> Did I have to give up something I really wanted?  You bet.
> But I publicly surrendered my position, because what matters
> most to me is that we get off the pot and get this draft
> published as an official RFC, so that things like the XML
> Recommendation can be updated (actually, will update
> themselves) to accept all the tags for the long tail of
> languages we are still speaking here on planet Earth.
>
> --
> John  Cowan  http://ccil.org/~cowan   cowan@ccil.org
> 'My young friend, if you do not now, immediately and
> instantly, pull as hard as ever you can, it is my opinion
> that your acquaintance in the large-pattern leather ulster'
> (and by this he meant the Crocodile) 'will jerk you into
> yonder limpid stream before you can say Jack Robinson.'
>         --the Bi-Coloured-Python-Rock-Snake
>
>
>
>




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists
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John Cowan 2008-05-10 20.15:
> Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
>
> > So, the issue - the macrolanguage - seems indeed to exist, merely under 
> > - in some "abroad" circles - another name.
>
> There is a dialect continuum spoken in four different countries (with
> outliers elsewhere).
>
> There are also two separate standard languages, Serbian and Croatian,
> which merged for a while (in the sense that users of each agreed to
> accept the orthography and lexis of the other as also instances of their
> standard form) and have since separated again.
>
> There is an incipient third standard language, and a label for a fourth
> but no actual separate standard yet, perhaps not ever.
>   

Not sure what you mean by "third" and "fourth".

> Or as a Croat linguist put it to me back in the 1980s.  "I am a native
> speaker of Croatian, and therefore have a native command of Serbian
> as well."
>   

You forgot one, important, unifying thing, namely the special alphabet - 
or alphabets - which were crafted to unify the two - or more - "breeds" 
of these encompassed languages. The Serbian Cyrillic alphabet and its 
corresponding Croatian Latin alphabet, are the only two Latin and 
Cyrillic alphabets in use which are 100% interchangable - and created to 
be like that - except when it comes to sorting. (Though I have observed 
an - perhaps post-Yugoslavian - tendency to perform Cyrillic enumeration 
and sorting based on the Latin order values.)

Only the Serbocroatian languages share these alphabets. (The Macedonian 
Cyrillic alphabet differ a little from the Serbian one. And the 
Slovenian differs a little from the Croatian one.)

I have not heard that any of the Serbocroatian languages since 
Yugoslavia broke up have switched back to any "pre-Yugoslavian" alphabet 
or something.

When it comes to Chinese, then the more or less common script is one of 
the most important reasons, as I  understand it, for talking about 
macrolanguage. So where is the reason to view it otherwise with regard 
to Serbocroatian.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 12:01:42 -0700
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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Phillips, Addison'" <addison@amazon.com>,
	"'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
References: <mailman.3271.1210174179.4851.ltru@ietf.org><005201c8b0b2$f20db130$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><00be01c8b0ec$ea8d7a50$0b00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><007701c8b191$83452460$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><01e501c8b1f2$13111df0$0b00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><004001c8b25d$2969c780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><026c01c8b276$bf5a7280$0b00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><006001c8b2ce$577e6f10$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Why not:

Subtag: zh
Type1: Language
Type2: Macrolanguage

Indicating it can be used as a standalone language subtag or as part of an
extension subtag.

and...

Subtag: cmn
Type1: language
Type2: extlang
Macrolanguage: zh

Indicating that it may be presented as a language subtag but if it is
implementations should convert it to extlang using the Macrolanguage field
value.

This is where dual use comes in.  It doesn't matter how many pages you write
in the RFC saying how macrolanguage and extlang work people will still tag
with any of 'zh', 'cmn', or 'zh-cmn' and it shouldn't matter which they
choose as the registry facilitates fallback for all 3.

Best

Debbie





> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Phillips, Addison
> Sent: 10 May 2008 20:02
> To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> If we need to indicate that a language is a macrolanguage in
> the registry, we should use a separate field. Presumably it
> would be something like:
>
> Subtag: zh
> Type: language
> Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc.
>
> Or perhaps:
>
> Subtag: zh
> Type: language
> Encompasses: cmn
> Encompasses: yue
> Encompasses: wuu
> ... etc ...
>
> And the encompasses languages would look like:
>
> Subtag: cmn
> Type: language // or extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh
>
> If we were to restore the use of 'extlang', perhaps the above
> wouldn't be necessary, since enclosed languages would not be
> of the same type and the 'cmn' record would look more like:
>
> Subtag: cmn
> Type: extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh
> Prefix: zh
>
> ... but we would have some enclosed languages grandfathered
> into the language slot:
>
> Subtag: nn
> Type: language
> Macrolanguage: no
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf
> > Of Doug Ewell
> > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:48 AM
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, I could see that you could get a reverse match from the
> > languages
> > > containing the Macrolanguage field but I still feel that
> the actual
> > > macrolanguage should be labelled.  If only to stop people from
> > > assuming that they should tag all Arabic as 'ar'.  If I
> was tagging
> > > a document and looking for the right code I might well do
> a search
> > > for "Arabic" or "Chinese".  The result would not identify
> the subtag
> > > as a Macrolanguages and thus I may not look any further.
> > >
> > > For the sake of 50 or so fields, I think it is worth putting a
> > > Macrolangauge field in the Registry - for humans to use :-)
> >
> > I see three particular problems with using the
> Macrolanguage field to
> > mean two opposite concepts, "this language HAS a macrolanguage" and
> > "this language IS a macrolanguage":
> >
> > 1.  The software problem.  In beginning programming you
> learn to use
> > values like -1 to mean "not a valid value" or "end of list"
> or similar.
> > This works OK when the real values are non-negative, such as the
> > population of a town, but not so well when the values could be
> > negative, such as its elevation.  Also, other parts of the software
> > have to know to treat -1 as a special case, not like an ordinary
> > value.  Sometimes this gets confusing and you see -1 pop up
> in places
> > it shouldn't.  In intermediate programming you learn to stop doing
> > this, and represent special situations in other ways
> >
> > Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> fruitlessly for
> > a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> instead of
> > remembering that 'True' is a special case.  Remember that 4-letter
> > language subtags, though "reserved for future use" (for
> some standard,
> > I forget which ;-), are valid in the ABNF, and that the casing of
> > subtags doesn't matter, though we're supposed to get it
> right in the
> > Registry.
> >
> > 2.  The human problem.  I can easily imagine readers of the
> Registry
> > becoming confused over this dual usage of a single field.
> They might
> > wonder why other subtags don't have "Macrolanguage: False",
> or why 'ar'
> > is considered the opposite of 'True'.  They might also experience
> > confusion similar to problem 1, as 'tru' is a valid RFC 4646bis
> > language subtag for Turoyo.  (At least the proposal wasn't to use
> > "Macrolanguage:
> > yes", thus causing instant confusion with Yeskwa.)
> >
> > 3.  The maintenance problem.  Technically the 'True' value is
> > redundant information; it can be derived from the records for the
> > encompassed languages.  Any time you have to maintain redundant
> > information, especially in a different place, there is a
> much greater
> > chance of making a human mistake.
> >
> > Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented
> with a new
> > batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new
> > classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed
> languages 'qea'
> > and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage: qma" on the records for
> > 'qea' and 'qeb'
> > but forgets to put "Macrolanguage: True" on the record for 'qma'.
> > Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> this during
> > the 1-week review.  We would end up with an internal inconsistency
> > within the Registry.  Gosh, your friendly Experts would hate that.
> > They
> > would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about "process failure"
> > and
> > the possibility of removal or replacement at the IESG's discretion.
> >
> > If it is really felt necessary to indicate that 'ar' is a
> > macrolanguage in both ways, with a special value on the
> macrolanguage
> > record as well as the encompassed languages (ignoring
> problem 3), then
> > we should have two fields, something like
> Is-A-Macrolanguage and My-Macrolanguage-Is.
> > (Suggestions for better names are solicited.)  As with the Comments
> > field, I don't support overloading a single field for fundamentally
> > different purposes.
> >
> > --
> > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > http://www.ewellic.org
> > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>




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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-10 21.01:
> If we need to indicate that a language is a macrolanguage in the registry, we should use a separate field. Presumably it would be something like:
>
> Subtag: zh
> Type: language
> Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc.
>   

Sounds like a good way to do it.

[...]
> If we were to restore the use of 'extlang', perhaps the above wouldn't be necessary, since enclosed languages would not be of the same type and the 'cmn' record would look more like:
>
> Subtag: cmn
> Type: extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh
> Prefix: zh
>
> ... but we would have some enclosed languages grandfathered into the language slot:
>
> Subtag: nn
> Type: language
> Macrolanguage: no
>   

For this reason, I prefer using

    "Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc."

instead of going the extlang route. Treating all macrolanguages the same 
way increases the  chance the issue is looked at and understood, for all 
the related languages.
-- 
leif halvard silli

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Doug wrote:


> I see three particular problems with using the Macrolanguage
> field to mean two opposite concepts, "this language HAS a
> macrolanguage" and "this language IS a macrolanguage":
>
> 1.  The software problem.  In beginning programming you learn
> to use values like -1 to mean "not a valid value" or "end of
> list" or similar.
> This works OK when the real values are non-negative, such as
> the population of a town, but not so well when the values
> could be negative, such as its elevation.  Also, other parts
> of the software have to know to treat -1 as a special case,
> not like an ordinary value.  Sometimes this gets confusing
> and you see -1 pop up in places it shouldn't.  In
> intermediate programming you learn to stop doing this, and
> represent special situations in other ways

OK

>
> Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> fruitlessly for a language subtag 'True' that is the
> macrolanguage of 'ar' instead of remembering that 'True' is a
> special case.

Not if it is programmed correctly :-)

>Remember that 4-letter language subtags,
> though "reserved for future use" (for some standard, I forget
> which ;-), are valid in the ABNF, and that the casing of
> subtags doesn't matter, though we're supposed to get it right
> in the Registry.
>
> 2.  The human problem.  I can easily imagine readers of the
> Registry becoming confused over this dual usage of a single
> field.  They might wonder why other subtags don't have
> "Macrolanguage: False", or why 'ar'
> is considered the opposite of 'True'.  They might also
> experience confusion similar to problem 1, as 'tru' is a
> valid RFC 4646bis language subtag for Turoyo.  (At least the
> proposal wasn't to use "Macrolanguage:
> yes", thus causing instant confusion with Yeskwa.)

OK

>
> 3.  The maintenance problem.  Technically the 'True' value is
> redundant information; it can be derived from the records for
> the encompassed languages.  Any time you have to maintain
> redundant information, especially in a different place, there
> is a much greater chance of making a human mistake.

OK


>
> Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented
> with a new batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including
> a new classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed
> languages 'qea' and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage:
> qma" on the records for 'qea' and 'qeb'
> but forgets to put "Macrolanguage: True" on the record for 'qma'.

I would sack them without hesitation ;-)


> Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> this during the 1-week review.  We would end up with an
> internal inconsistency within the Registry.  Gosh, your
> friendly Experts would hate that.  They would also hate the
> inevitable e-mail flames about "process failure" and the
> possibility of removal or replacement at the IESG's discretion.

Now come, come, this is not the GNSO GA forum you know!

>
> If it is really felt necessary to indicate that 'ar' is a
> macrolanguage in both ways, with a special value on the
> macrolanguage record as well as the encompassed languages
> (ignoring problem 3), then we should have two fields,
> something like Is-A-Macrolanguage and My-Macrolanguage-Is.
> (Suggestions for better names are solicited.)  As with the
> Comments field, I don't support overloading a single field
> for fundamentally different purposes.

OK  I could try to argue but your reasoning is quite sound and it is
Saturday night and I have a glass of red wine waiting :-)


Best

Debbie
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
>
>
>




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Debbie Garside 2008-05-10 22.12:
> Why not:
>   
....
> and...
>
> Subtag: cmn
> Type1: language
> Type2: extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh
>
> Indicating that it may be presented as a language subtag but if it is
> implementations should convert it to extlang using the Macrolanguage field
> value.
>
> This is where dual use comes in.  It doesn't matter how many pages you write
> in the RFC saying how macrolanguage and extlang work people will still tag
> with any of 'zh', 'cmn', or 'zh-cmn' and it shouldn't matter which they
> choose as the registry facilitates fallback for all 3.
>   

So for Nynorsk, then we would simply just drop the Type2: field, I 
suppose? If so, then I would see this as the better solution, as it 
would be "compatible" with and optimal for all the macrolanguages.

[ I will probably take a break from this list 2-3 days. ]
-- 
best regards
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Actually, logically perhaps it should read:

Subtag: zh
Type: Macrolanguage


and...

Subtag: cmn
Type: extlang
Macrolanguage: zh;1

Subtag: yue
Type: extlang
Macrolanguage: zh

You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios for when a user
has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don't need a type 2
on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a standalone primary
language subtag - that's covered by the text.

Debbie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Phillips, Addison
> Sent: 10 May 2008 20:02
> To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> If we need to indicate that a language is a macrolanguage in
> the registry, we should use a separate field. Presumably it
> would be something like:
>
> Subtag: zh
> Type: language
> Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc.
>
> Or perhaps:
>
> Subtag: zh
> Type: language
> Encompasses: cmn
> Encompasses: yue
> Encompasses: wuu
> ... etc ...
>
> And the encompasses languages would look like:
>
> Subtag: cmn
> Type: language // or extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh
>
> If we were to restore the use of 'extlang', perhaps the above
> wouldn't be necessary, since enclosed languages would not be
> of the same type and the 'cmn' record would look more like:
>
> Subtag: cmn
> Type: extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh
> Prefix: zh
>
> ... but we would have some enclosed languages grandfathered
> into the language slot:
>
> Subtag: nn
> Type: language
> Macrolanguage: no
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf
> > Of Doug Ewell
> > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:48 AM
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, I could see that you could get a reverse match from the
> > languages
> > > containing the Macrolanguage field but I still feel that
> the actual
> > > macrolanguage should be labelled.  If only to stop people from
> > > assuming that they should tag all Arabic as 'ar'.  If I
> was tagging
> > > a document and looking for the right code I might well do
> a search
> > > for "Arabic" or "Chinese".  The result would not identify
> the subtag
> > > as a Macrolanguages and thus I may not look any further.
> > >
> > > For the sake of 50 or so fields, I think it is worth putting a
> > > Macrolangauge field in the Registry - for humans to use :-)
> >
> > I see three particular problems with using the
> Macrolanguage field to
> > mean two opposite concepts, "this language HAS a macrolanguage" and
> > "this language IS a macrolanguage":
> >
> > 1.  The software problem.  In beginning programming you
> learn to use
> > values like -1 to mean "not a valid value" or "end of list"
> or similar.
> > This works OK when the real values are non-negative, such as the
> > population of a town, but not so well when the values could be
> > negative, such as its elevation.  Also, other parts of the software
> > have to know to treat -1 as a special case, not like an ordinary
> > value.  Sometimes this gets confusing and you see -1 pop up
> in places
> > it shouldn't.  In intermediate programming you learn to stop doing
> > this, and represent special situations in other ways
> >
> > Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> fruitlessly for
> > a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> instead of
> > remembering that 'True' is a special case.  Remember that 4-letter
> > language subtags, though "reserved for future use" (for
> some standard,
> > I forget which ;-), are valid in the ABNF, and that the casing of
> > subtags doesn't matter, though we're supposed to get it
> right in the
> > Registry.
> >
> > 2.  The human problem.  I can easily imagine readers of the
> Registry
> > becoming confused over this dual usage of a single field.
> They might
> > wonder why other subtags don't have "Macrolanguage: False",
> or why 'ar'
> > is considered the opposite of 'True'.  They might also experience
> > confusion similar to problem 1, as 'tru' is a valid RFC 4646bis
> > language subtag for Turoyo.  (At least the proposal wasn't to use
> > "Macrolanguage:
> > yes", thus causing instant confusion with Yeskwa.)
> >
> > 3.  The maintenance problem.  Technically the 'True' value is
> > redundant information; it can be derived from the records for the
> > encompassed languages.  Any time you have to maintain redundant
> > information, especially in a different place, there is a
> much greater
> > chance of making a human mistake.
> >
> > Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented
> with a new
> > batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new
> > classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed
> languages 'qea'
> > and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage: qma" on the records for
> > 'qea' and 'qeb'
> > but forgets to put "Macrolanguage: True" on the record for 'qma'.
> > Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> this during
> > the 1-week review.  We would end up with an internal inconsistency
> > within the Registry.  Gosh, your friendly Experts would hate that.
> > They
> > would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about "process failure"
> > and
> > the possibility of removal or replacement at the IESG's discretion.
> >
> > If it is really felt necessary to indicate that 'ar' is a
> > macrolanguage in both ways, with a special value on the
> macrolanguage
> > record as well as the encompassed languages (ignoring
> problem 3), then
> > we should have two fields, something like
> Is-A-Macrolanguage and My-Macrolanguage-Is.
> > (Suggestions for better names are solicited.)  As with the Comments
> > field, I don't support overloading a single field for fundamentally
> > different purposes.
> >
> > --
> > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > http://www.ewellic.org
> > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>




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> You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios for when a
> user
> has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don't need a
> type 2
> on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a standalone primary
> language subtag - that's covered by the text.

No, actually we can't "program implementations" without breaking existing "well-formed" implementations (which I think represents the majority of implementations).

Reliance on metadata in the registry is, of course, something you are familiar and comfortable with---ISO 639-6 relies on it. But BCP 47--and the matching schemes in particular--have historically eschewed such reliance. If we introduce reliance on the registry, it breaks the implementations that rely solely on tag structure. Arguments between extlangistas and non-extlangistas have greatly revolved around this particular problem.

If this were just a one-time thing, such as the grandfathered list, it might not be so bad, since we could give the list to hardcode in the RFC. But there is no indication that the macrolanguage list is closed or particularly stable (even if entries are stable, new ones will probably be created).

BCP 47 is not the perfect language identifier system that suits all needs everywhere. It is a compromise that suits many applications.

Of course, I'm also pretty sure that a "perfect" language identifier system is not likely to appear, since any such system must make choices about how to split or lump languages and thus will ill-serve some application.

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 1:49 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Actually, logically perhaps it should read:
>
> Subtag: zh
> Type: Macrolanguage
>
>
> and...
>
> Subtag: cmn
> Type: extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh;1
>
> Subtag: yue
> Type: extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh
>
> You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios for when a
> user
> has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don't need a
> type 2
> on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a standalone primary
> language subtag - that's covered by the text.
>
> Debbie
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Phillips, Addison
> > Sent: 10 May 2008 20:02
> > To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > If we need to indicate that a language is a macrolanguage in
> > the registry, we should use a separate field. Presumably it
> > would be something like:
> >
> > Subtag: zh
> > Type: language
> > Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc.
> >
> > Or perhaps:
> >
> > Subtag: zh
> > Type: language
> > Encompasses: cmn
> > Encompasses: yue
> > Encompasses: wuu
> > ... etc ...
> >
> > And the encompasses languages would look like:
> >
> > Subtag: cmn
> > Type: language // or extlang
> > Macrolanguage: zh
> >
> > If we were to restore the use of 'extlang', perhaps the above
> > wouldn't be necessary, since enclosed languages would not be
> > of the same type and the 'cmn' record would look more like:
> >
> > Subtag: cmn
> > Type: extlang
> > Macrolanguage: zh
> > Prefix: zh
> >
> > ... but we would have some enclosed languages grandfathered
> > into the language slot:
> >
> > Subtag: nn
> > Type: language
> > Macrolanguage: no
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > Addison Phillips
> > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> >
> > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > It is an architecture.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Doug Ewell
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:48 AM
> > > To: LTRU Working Group
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > >
> > > Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes, I could see that you could get a reverse match from the
> > > languages
> > > > containing the Macrolanguage field but I still feel that
> > the actual
> > > > macrolanguage should be labelled.  If only to stop people from
> > > > assuming that they should tag all Arabic as 'ar'.  If I
> > was tagging
> > > > a document and looking for the right code I might well do
> > a search
> > > > for "Arabic" or "Chinese".  The result would not identify
> > the subtag
> > > > as a Macrolanguages and thus I may not look any further.
> > > >
> > > > For the sake of 50 or so fields, I think it is worth putting a
> > > > Macrolangauge field in the Registry - for humans to use :-)
> > >
> > > I see three particular problems with using the
> > Macrolanguage field to
> > > mean two opposite concepts, "this language HAS a macrolanguage" and
> > > "this language IS a macrolanguage":
> > >
> > > 1.  The software problem.  In beginning programming you
> > learn to use
> > > values like -1 to mean "not a valid value" or "end of list"
> > or similar.
> > > This works OK when the real values are non-negative, such as the
> > > population of a town, but not so well when the values could be
> > > negative, such as its elevation.  Also, other parts of the software
> > > have to know to treat -1 as a special case, not like an ordinary
> > > value.  Sometimes this gets confusing and you see -1 pop up
> > in places
> > > it shouldn't.  In intermediate programming you learn to stop doing
> > > this, and represent special situations in other ways
> > >
> > > Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> > fruitlessly for
> > > a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> > instead of
> > > remembering that 'True' is a special case.  Remember that 4-letter
> > > language subtags, though "reserved for future use" (for
> > some standard,
> > > I forget which ;-), are valid in the ABNF, and that the casing of
> > > subtags doesn't matter, though we're supposed to get it
> > right in the
> > > Registry.
> > >
> > > 2.  The human problem.  I can easily imagine readers of the
> > Registry
> > > becoming confused over this dual usage of a single field.
> > They might
> > > wonder why other subtags don't have "Macrolanguage: False",
> > or why 'ar'
> > > is considered the opposite of 'True'.  They might also experience
> > > confusion similar to problem 1, as 'tru' is a valid RFC 4646bis
> > > language subtag for Turoyo.  (At least the proposal wasn't to use
> > > "Macrolanguage:
> > > yes", thus causing instant confusion with Yeskwa.)
> > >
> > > 3.  The maintenance problem.  Technically the 'True' value is
> > > redundant information; it can be derived from the records for the
> > > encompassed languages.  Any time you have to maintain redundant
> > > information, especially in a different place, there is a
> > much greater
> > > chance of making a human mistake.
> > >
> > > Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented
> > with a new
> > > batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new
> > > classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed
> > languages 'qea'
> > > and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage: qma" on the records for
> > > 'qea' and 'qeb'
> > > but forgets to put "Macrolanguage: True" on the record for 'qma'.
> > > Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> > this during
> > > the 1-week review.  We would end up with an internal inconsistency
> > > within the Registry.  Gosh, your friendly Experts would hate that.
> > > They
> > > would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about "process
> failure"
> > > and
> > > the possibility of removal or replacement at the IESG's discretion.
> > >
> > > If it is really felt necessary to indicate that 'ar' is a
> > > macrolanguage in both ways, with a special value on the
> > macrolanguage
> > > record as well as the encompassed languages (ignoring
> > problem 3), then
> > > we should have two fields, something like
> > Is-A-Macrolanguage and My-Macrolanguage-Is.
> > > (Suggestions for better names are solicited.)  As with the Comments
> > > field, I don't support overloading a single field for fundamentally
> > > different purposes.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > > http://www.ewellic.org
> > > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:07:30 -0600
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists
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On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>  I don't see what d adds: a-c give examples in which multiple tags apply,
> and if the language is unknown I don't know how why a list declaring
> multiple languages would be used.
>
>
>
> I don't understand what you have in mind for e. Do you mean that a list may
> be used to make a declaration using a set of current tags for some set of
> varieties encompassed by a now-deprecated tag that had previously been used
> for that record?
>

Yes. The issue is that sr-CS is deprecated. As such, one should replace it.
However, because CS was replaced by RS/ME, one cannot replace it by a single
entity without being more specific than the original data was. And if you
don't know how the original data was derived, then you don't know which of
the choices it should be. (This is just one example of the general case.).

> This doesn't strike me as an instance of "Content items that contain
> multiple, distinct varieties"; rather the examples you give are cases of a
> single variety that over time, for geo-political reasons, have begun to be
> given distinct identities.
>

It is a case where one tag would be nowadays ambiguously one of two (or
more). [Even worse for cases like SU.]. If you can use a list, you can tag
it with nondeprecated codes, and neither lose nor add information.

>
>
> Btw, it's not entirely clear to me why sh should be deprecated in our usage
> if there is content out there than can appropriately be described as
> "Serbo-Croatian".
>

I share that view, but it is in fact deprecated.

>
>
> *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Friday, May 09, 2008 9:03 AM
> *To:* Phillips, Addison
> *Cc:* Shawn Steele; Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists
>
>
>
> Actually, one more:
>
> e.<t>A single tag needs to be replaced by multiple tags in order to remove
> deprecated tags, or get more precise results than macrolanguages. Example:
> "sr-CS" => "sr-RS, sr-ME"; "sh" => "sr, bs, hr"</t>
>
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> wrote:
>
> This looks like a good direction (I have to be brief; won't have time to
> look at these in detail until Monday).
>
> The one thing I would add, which in certain ways is the most important, is
>
>      d.<t>A document or segment of text that could equally well be tagged
> by each of two or more tags. This can happen where the exact language is not
> known, or multiple tags could validly apply.</t>
>
>
>
>  On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
>
> I took Shawn's suggestion below and Peter's email about use cases for lists
> and molded them into a single, new, section for draft-14. At first I wanted
> to include them into the section on choice or on meaning, but it just
> doesn't fit into either. Here's my proposed text:
>
> --
> <section anchor="lists" title="Lists of Languages">
>
> <t>In some applications, a single content item might best be associated
> with more than one language tag. Examples of such a usage include:<list
> style="symbols">
>
>   1.<t>A language priority list <xref target="RFC4647"></xref> describing a
> user's language preferences. This is a (possibly weighted) list of
> potentially-unrelated varieties, expressing a preference, rather than as a
> declaration about actual content.</t>
>
>   2.<t>Content items that contain multiple, distinct varieties. Often this
> is used to indicate an appropriate audience for a given content item when
> multiple choices might be appropriate. Examples of this could include: <list
> style="symbols">
>
>      a.<t>Metadata about the appropriate audience for a movie title. For
> example, a DVD might label its individual audio tracks 'de' (German), 'fr'
> (French), and 'es' (Spanish), but the overall title would list "de, fr, es"
> as its overall audience.</t>
>
>      b.<t>A French/English, English/French dictionary tagged as both "en"
> and "fr" to specify that it applies equally to French and English</t>
>
>      c.<t>A side-by-side or interlinear translation of a document, as is
> commonly done with classical works in Latin or Greek</t>
>
>   </list> </t>
>
>   3.<t>Content items that contain a single language but which require
> multiple levels of specificity. For example, a library might wish to
> classify a particular work as both Chinese ('zh') and as Min Nan ('nan') for
> audiences capable of appreciating the distinction or needing to select
> content more narrowly.</t></list>
>
> </t>
>
> </section>
> --
>
> I can't seem to think of any normative language to wrap around this that
> isn't already handled by the choice or meaning sections or by 4647.
>
> Comments?
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:00 PM
> > To: Shawn Steele; Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to "zh"
> >
> > I'm thinking something like this:
> >
> >
> >
> > 4.6? Lists of Language Tags
> >
> > In some applications a list of language tags is necessary, such as a
> > user's language priority list, when multiple language apply equally to
> > the same content, or when matching of older tags is expected.  Some
> > example scenarios are:
> >
> > * A user could specify "en, de, jp" for a language priority list as
> > described in RFC4647bis
> > * A French/English, English/French dictionary could be tagged as "en,
> > fr" to specify that it applies equally to French and English
> > * A DVD could be tagged as having audio content in "en, fr" and
> > subtitles in "en, fr, es, jp".
> > * An English translation of a classical work could have the code "la,
> > en".
> > * Mandarin content expected to interchange with existing systems could
> > be tagged "cmn, zh".
> >
> > Standards and protocols specifying this RFC MAY choose to allow lists
> > of language tags.  Such standards and protocols MUST NOT be required to
> > allow lists of language tags if not appropriate.
> >
> > If a list of language tags is used it MUST contain well formed language
> > tags and strongly RECOMMENDED that those tags are chosen using the
> > Choice of Language Tag guidelines.
> >
> > When a list of language tags is used, the protocols MUST specify
> > whether or not an order is or is not implied or required for the list.
> >
> > When a collection of content, such as a DVD with multiple tracks, can
> > be tagged with multiple languages, the collection SHOULD be tagged with
> > the appropriate language tags, and the individual pieces of content
> > SHOULD be tagged with a single language tag from the list of the
> > collection.
> >
> > Recommendations for searching and matching of lists of language tags
> > should be addressed in the successor to RFC 4647
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>   --
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>


-- 
Mark

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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Peter Constable &lt;<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">









<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I don't see what d adds: a-c give examples in which multiple
tags apply, and if the language is unknown I don't know how why a list declaring
multiple languages would be used.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I don't understand what you have in mind for e. Do you mean that
a list may be used to make a declaration using a set of current tags for some
set of varieties encompassed by a now-deprecated tag that had previously been used
for that record? </span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Yes. The issue is that sr-CS is deprecated. As such, one should replace it. However, because CS was replaced by RS/ME, one cannot replace it by a single entity without being more specific than the original data was. And if you don&#39;t know how the original data was derived, then you don&#39;t know which of the choices it should be. (This is just one example of the general case.).<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This doesn't strike me as an instance of "</span>Content items
that contain multiple, distinct varieties<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">"; rather the examples you
give are cases of a single variety that over time, for geo-political reasons,
have begun to be given distinct identities.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>It is a case where one tag would be nowadays ambiguously one of two (or more). [Even worse for cases like SU.]. If you can use a list, you can tag it with nondeprecated codes, and neither lose nor add information.<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>


<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Btw, it's not entirely clear to me why sh should be deprecated
in our usage if there is content out there than can appropriately be described
as "Serbo-Croatian".</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>I share that view, but it is in fact deprecated.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 09, 2008 9:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phillips, Addison<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Shawn Steele; Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists</span></p>

</div>

</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Actually, one more:<br>
<br>
e.&lt;t&gt;A single tag needs to be replaced by multiple tags in order to
remove deprecated tags, or get more precise results than macrolanguages.
Example: &quot;sr-CS&quot; =&gt; &quot;sr-RS, sr-ME&quot;; &quot;sh&quot; =&gt;
&quot;sr, bs, hr&quot;&lt;/t&gt;</p>

<div>

<p>On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Mark Davis &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org" target="_blank">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt;
wrote:</p>

<p>This looks like a good direction (I have to be brief; won&#39;t
have time to look at these in detail until Monday).<br>
<br>
The one thing I would add, which in certain ways is the most important, is <br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; d.&lt;t&gt;A document or segment of text that could equally
well be tagged by each of two or more tags. This can happen where the exact
language is not known, or multiple tags could validly apply.&lt;/t&gt;</p>

<div>

<div>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
<br>
</p>

<div>

<p>On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com" target="_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</p>

<p>I took Shawn&#39;s suggestion below and Peter&#39;s email about use
cases for lists and molded them into a single, new, section for draft-14. At
first I wanted to include them into the section on choice or on meaning, but it
just doesn&#39;t fit into either. Here&#39;s my proposed text:<br>
<br>
--<br>
&lt;section anchor=&quot;lists&quot; title=&quot;Lists of Languages&quot;&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;t&gt;In some applications, a single content item might best be associated
with more than one language tag. Examples of such a usage include:&lt;list
style=&quot;symbols&quot;&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; 1.&lt;t&gt;A language priority list &lt;xref
target=&quot;RFC4647&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt; describing a user&#39;s language
preferences. This is a (possibly weighted) list of potentially-unrelated
varieties, expressing a preference, rather than as a declaration about actual
content.&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; 2.&lt;t&gt;Content items that contain multiple, distinct varieties.
Often this is used to indicate an appropriate audience for a given content item
when multiple choices might be appropriate. Examples of this could include:
&lt;list style=&quot;symbols&quot;&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;a.&lt;t&gt;Metadata about the appropriate audience for a
movie title. For example, a DVD might label its individual audio tracks &#39;de&#39;
(German), &#39;fr&#39; (French), and &#39;es&#39; (Spanish), but the overall title would list
&quot;de, fr, es&quot; as its overall audience.&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;b.&lt;t&gt;A French/English, English/French dictionary
tagged as both &quot;en&quot; and &quot;fr&quot; to specify that it applies
equally to French and English&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;c.&lt;t&gt;A side-by-side or interlinear translation of a
document, as is commonly done with classical works in Latin or Greek&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &lt;/list&gt; &lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; 3.&lt;t&gt;Content items that contain a single language but which require
multiple levels of specificity. For example, a library might wish to classify a
particular work as both Chinese (&#39;zh&#39;) and as Min Nan (&#39;nan&#39;) for audiences
capable of appreciating the distinction or needing to select content more
narrowly.&lt;/t&gt;&lt;/list&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;/section&gt;<br>
--<br>
<br>
I can&#39;t seem to think of any normative language to wrap around this that isn&#39;t
already handled by the choice or meaning sections or by 4647.<br>
<br>
Comments?<br>
<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Shawn Steele [mailto:<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com" target="_blank">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:00 PM<br>
&gt; To: Shawn Steele; Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable<br>
&gt; Cc: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Ltru] going back to the roots to find a solution to
&quot;zh&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m thinking something like this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 4.6? Lists of Language Tags<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In some applications a list of language tags is necessary, such as a<br>
&gt; user&#39;s language priority list, when multiple language apply equally to<br>
&gt; the same content, or when matching of older tags is expected. &nbsp;Some<br>
&gt; example scenarios are:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; * A user could specify &quot;en, de, jp&quot; for a language priority list
as<br>
&gt; described in RFC4647bis<br>
&gt; * A French/English, English/French dictionary could be tagged as &quot;en,<br>
&gt; fr&quot; to specify that it applies equally to French and English<br>
&gt; * A DVD could be tagged as having audio content in &quot;en, fr&quot; and<br>
&gt; subtitles in &quot;en, fr, es, jp&quot;.<br>
&gt; * An English translation of a classical work could have the code &quot;la,<br>
&gt; en&quot;.<br>
&gt; * Mandarin content expected to interchange with existing systems could<br>
&gt; be tagged &quot;cmn, zh&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Standards and protocols specifying this RFC MAY choose to allow lists<br>
&gt; of language tags. &nbsp;Such standards and protocols MUST NOT be required
to<br>
&gt; allow lists of language tags if not appropriate.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If a list of language tags is used it MUST contain well formed language<br>
&gt; tags and strongly RECOMMENDED that those tags are chosen using the<br>
&gt; Choice of Language Tag guidelines.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When a list of language tags is used, the protocols MUST specify<br>
&gt; whether or not an order is or is not implied or required for the list.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When a collection of content, such as a DVD with multiple tracks, can<br>
&gt; be tagged with multiple languages, the collection SHOULD be tagged with<br>
&gt; the appropriate language tags, and the individual pieces of content<br>
&gt; SHOULD be tagged with a single language tag from the list of the<br>
&gt; collection.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Recommendations for searching and matching of lists of language tags<br>
&gt; should be addressed in the successor to RFC 4647<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a></p>

</div>

<p><br>
<br clear="all">
</p>

</div>

</div>

<p>-- <br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Mark </span></p>

</div>

<p><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Mark </p>

</div></div></div>

</div>

</div>


<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:16:41 -0600
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
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Works for me.

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > Phillips, Addison
> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:59 PM
>
> > I'd like to propose a series of edits to try and resolve the
> > Chinese/macrolanguage thread...
>
> I'm just starting to look at this thread. Some of my comments may already
> be superseded by discussion I haven't yet looked at; if so, sorry in advance
> for the distraction.
>
>
> > I suggest we replace this text:
> > ... with this longer text on Chinese:
> >
> > --
> > <t>In particular, the family of languages belonging to the
> > macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') call for special consideration. Because
> > the written form is very similar for most languages, textual content
> > SHOULD use the 'zh' subtag
>
> I'm wondering if SHOULD is even too strong. I think I'd feel more
> comfortable with something along this line:
>
> "Written Mandarin is widely used, and the subtag 'zh' has most often been
> used for Mandarin textual content. Other Chinese languages are written in
> some usage contexts, however, and those written forms are distinct from
> written Mandarin. Because of prevalent use of 'zh' for written Chinese, it
> will make sense to use 'zh' for written Chinese in many application
> scenarios, possibly with a script subtag (indicating...), region or other
> subtags to indicate some variation. Use of specific, encompassed language
> subtags is permitted, however, and may be a better choice in some
> application scenarios. For example, Cantonese video subtitles written with
> Simplified characters could be tagged 'yue-Hans'; or video subtitles in
> Taiwanese Mandarin written with Traditional characters could be tagged
> 'cmn-Hant-TW'."
>
>
>
> > <t> Finally, macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when
> > searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language
> > negotiation.  For example, the information that 'yue' has a
> > macrolangauge of 'zh' could be used in the Lookup algorithm (<xref
> > target="RFC4647"></xref>) to include the range "zh-Hans-CN" as a
> > fallback from a request for "yue-Hans-CN" (preserving the script and
> > region information) even though the user did not specify "zh-Hans-CN"
> > in their request. For the Chinese languages in particular, this
> > practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage
> > is RECOMMENDED.</t>
>
> It would probably make sense to mention the use of language priority lists
> with 'zh' and also a specific encompassed variety to indicate user
> preferences.
>
>
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
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Works for me.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Peter Constable &lt;<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
&gt; Phillips, Addison<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:59 PM<br>
<br>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; I&#39;d like to propose a series of edits to try and resolve the<br>
</div>&gt; Chinese/macrolanguage thread...<br>
<br>
I&#39;m just starting to look at this thread. Some of my comments may already be superseded by discussion I haven&#39;t yet looked at; if so, sorry in advance for the distraction.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
&gt; I suggest we replace this text:<br>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; ... with this longer text on Chinese:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; &lt;t&gt;In particular, the family of languages belonging to the<br>
&gt; macrolanguage Chinese (&#39;zh&#39;) call for special consideration. Because<br>
&gt; the written form is very similar for most languages, textual content<br>
&gt; SHOULD use the &#39;zh&#39; subtag<br>
<br>
</div>I&#39;m wondering if SHOULD is even too strong. I think I&#39;d feel more comfortable with something along this line:<br>
<br>
&quot;Written Mandarin is widely used, and the subtag &#39;zh&#39; has most often been used for Mandarin textual content. Other Chinese languages are written in some usage contexts, however, and those written forms are distinct from written Mandarin. Because of prevalent use of &#39;zh&#39; for written Chinese, it will make sense to use &#39;zh&#39; for written Chinese in many application scenarios, possibly with a script subtag (indicating...), region or other subtags to indicate some variation. Use of specific, encompassed language subtags is permitted, however, and may be a better choice in some application scenarios. For example, Cantonese video subtitles written with Simplified characters could be tagged &#39;yue-Hans&#39;; or video subtitles in Taiwanese Mandarin written with Traditional characters could be tagged &#39;cmn-Hant-TW&#39;.&quot;<br>

<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &lt;t&gt; Finally, macrolanguage information can be usefully applied when<br>
&gt; searching for content or when providing fallbacks in language<br>
&gt; negotiation. &nbsp;For example, the information that &#39;yue&#39; has a<br>
&gt; macrolangauge of &#39;zh&#39; could be used in the Lookup algorithm (&lt;xref<br>
&gt; target=&quot;RFC4647&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;) to include the range &quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot; as a<br>
&gt; fallback from a request for &quot;yue-Hans-CN&quot; (preserving the script and<br>
&gt; region information) even though the user did not specify &quot;zh-Hans-CN&quot;<br>
&gt; in their request. For the Chinese languages in particular, this<br>
&gt; practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage<br>
&gt; is RECOMMENDED.&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>It would probably make sense to mention the use of language priority lists with &#39;zh&#39; and also a specific encompassed variety to indicate user preferences.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
Peter<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:23:26 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Doug Ewell


> I am perfectly fine with that idea, and perfectly not fine with the
> similar-sounding but quite different idea that 'zh' is most often *used
> to mean* Mandarin.
>
> In the flood of messages on this topic, I can't find the statement in
> the archives that 'cmn' should be deprecated.  I hope to heaven that is
> a misquote.

IIRC, at one point Shawn said something along the lines that, if we're going to tell people to use 'zh' to mean Mandarin, then effectively we're determining that 'zh' *does* and always will mean Mandarin, so we might as well deprecate 'cmn' to avoid confusion and duplication. I didn't take that as him recommending that we do this; only that that was the logical implication of what he was hearing from others.


Peter
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:46:35 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>, "'Phillips,
	Addison'" <addison@amazon.com>, 'Doug Ewell' <doug@ewellic.org>, 'LTRU
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Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:51:19 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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This is getting worse by the moment: let's see just have many syntactic changes to our record-jar data files we can make, shall we?


Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Debbie Garside
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 1:49 PM
> To: 'Phillips, Addison'; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Actually, logically perhaps it should read:
>
> Subtag: zh
> Type: Macrolanguage
>
>
> and...
>
> Subtag: cmn
> Type: extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh;1
>
> Subtag: yue
> Type: extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh
>
> You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios for when a
> user
> has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don't need a
> type 2
> on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a standalone primary
> language subtag - that's covered by the text.
>
> Debbie
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Phillips, Addison
> > Sent: 10 May 2008 20:02
> > To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > If we need to indicate that a language is a macrolanguage in
> > the registry, we should use a separate field. Presumably it
> > would be something like:
> >
> > Subtag: zh
> > Type: language
> > Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc.
> >
> > Or perhaps:
> >
> > Subtag: zh
> > Type: language
> > Encompasses: cmn
> > Encompasses: yue
> > Encompasses: wuu
> > ... etc ...
> >
> > And the encompasses languages would look like:
> >
> > Subtag: cmn
> > Type: language // or extlang
> > Macrolanguage: zh
> >
> > If we were to restore the use of 'extlang', perhaps the above
> > wouldn't be necessary, since enclosed languages would not be
> > of the same type and the 'cmn' record would look more like:
> >
> > Subtag: cmn
> > Type: extlang
> > Macrolanguage: zh
> > Prefix: zh
> >
> > ... but we would have some enclosed languages grandfathered
> > into the language slot:
> >
> > Subtag: nn
> > Type: language
> > Macrolanguage: no
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > Addison Phillips
> > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> >
> > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > It is an architecture.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Doug Ewell
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:48 AM
> > > To: LTRU Working Group
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > >
> > > Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes, I could see that you could get a reverse match from the
> > > languages
> > > > containing the Macrolanguage field but I still feel that
> > the actual
> > > > macrolanguage should be labelled.  If only to stop people from
> > > > assuming that they should tag all Arabic as 'ar'.  If I
> > was tagging
> > > > a document and looking for the right code I might well do
> > a search
> > > > for "Arabic" or "Chinese".  The result would not identify
> > the subtag
> > > > as a Macrolanguages and thus I may not look any further.
> > > >
> > > > For the sake of 50 or so fields, I think it is worth putting a
> > > > Macrolangauge field in the Registry - for humans to use :-)
> > >
> > > I see three particular problems with using the
> > Macrolanguage field to
> > > mean two opposite concepts, "this language HAS a macrolanguage" and
> > > "this language IS a macrolanguage":
> > >
> > > 1.  The software problem.  In beginning programming you
> > learn to use
> > > values like -1 to mean "not a valid value" or "end of list"
> > or similar.
> > > This works OK when the real values are non-negative, such as the
> > > population of a town, but not so well when the values could be
> > > negative, such as its elevation.  Also, other parts of the software
> > > have to know to treat -1 as a special case, not like an ordinary
> > > value.  Sometimes this gets confusing and you see -1 pop up
> > in places
> > > it shouldn't.  In intermediate programming you learn to stop doing
> > > this, and represent special situations in other ways
> > >
> > > Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> > fruitlessly for
> > > a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> > instead of
> > > remembering that 'True' is a special case.  Remember that 4-letter
> > > language subtags, though "reserved for future use" (for
> > some standard,
> > > I forget which ;-), are valid in the ABNF, and that the casing of
> > > subtags doesn't matter, though we're supposed to get it
> > right in the
> > > Registry.
> > >
> > > 2.  The human problem.  I can easily imagine readers of the
> > Registry
> > > becoming confused over this dual usage of a single field.
> > They might
> > > wonder why other subtags don't have "Macrolanguage: False",
> > or why 'ar'
> > > is considered the opposite of 'True'.  They might also experience
> > > confusion similar to problem 1, as 'tru' is a valid RFC 4646bis
> > > language subtag for Turoyo.  (At least the proposal wasn't to use
> > > "Macrolanguage:
> > > yes", thus causing instant confusion with Yeskwa.)
> > >
> > > 3.  The maintenance problem.  Technically the 'True' value is
> > > redundant information; it can be derived from the records for the
> > > encompassed languages.  Any time you have to maintain redundant
> > > information, especially in a different place, there is a
> > much greater
> > > chance of making a human mistake.
> > >
> > > Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented
> > with a new
> > > batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new
> > > classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed
> > languages 'qea'
> > > and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage: qma" on the records for
> > > 'qea' and 'qeb'
> > > but forgets to put "Macrolanguage: True" on the record for 'qma'.
> > > Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> > this during
> > > the 1-week review.  We would end up with an internal inconsistency
> > > within the Registry.  Gosh, your friendly Experts would hate that.
> > > They
> > > would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about "process
> failure"
> > > and
> > > the possibility of removal or replacement at the IESG's discretion.
> > >
> > > If it is really felt necessary to indicate that 'ar' is a
> > > macrolanguage in both ways, with a special value on the
> > macrolanguage
> > > record as well as the encompassed languages (ignoring
> > problem 3), then
> > > we should have two fields, something like
> > Is-A-Macrolanguage and My-Macrolanguage-Is.
> > > (Suggestions for better names are solicited.)  As with the Comments
> > > field, I don't support overloading a single field for fundamentally
> > > different purposes.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > > http://www.ewellic.org
> > > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Cc: "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>,
	LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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Shawn Steele wrote:
> +1 on reaching a resolution.
>
> Unlike Mark, I think that some new ideas have surfaced since this was discussed, and I understand Karen's frustration with original discussion.  Like Mark, I'd like to get this thing done because I have deadlines and products that will depend on whatever's decided here.  I want to make sure its something everyone in the industry can feel OK about.
>
> As most of you know, I personally supported extlang.  Very recently, Peter & I (& others here at Microsoft) convinced each other that extlang wasn't really necessary and I felt that the concepts of "lists" would perhaps address my concerns regarding matching.
>
> Since then there has been discussion about the lack of "lists" in some standards/contexts and how that might make it difficult for applications to correlate zh & yue in a document's tags if necessary.  Now I find myself wondering if maybe extlang makes sense again for some cases, but, even worse, it seems to me that zh, cmn AND zh-cmn should be legal to properly tag some documents (Chinese of some form, known Mandarin, and Mandarin that's also acceptable for general Chinese use would be my interpretation).  So now I'm pretty neutral.  I'm reasonably convinced that extlang isn't necessary for my immediate concerns, however if I try to consider Karen's and other scenarios besides my own immediate problems, perhaps extlang would be better.
>
> One thing I'm very certain of is that zh != cmn and the standards shouldn't make an unnecessary correlation that doesn't exist in practice.
>
> I'm also disconcerted that Karen feels this effort may not address her needs because I don't want a disconnect between A/V standards that might be useful for on-demand content and other software on the system.  Everyone's needs certainly aren't the same, but information is getting more and more connected and these things show up in odd places.
>   

I too hope very much that this discussion will lead to a result which 
will be satisfactory for Karen's use case - also to be able to ensure 
the applicability of xml:lang in her community.

Felix

> - Shawn
>
> ________________________________________
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 5:05 PM
> To: Mark Davis
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
>
> The extlang decision was mostly made on  ill-announced conference calls,
> not the list.  While you may feel you discussed this to death, some of us
> feel bullied.  There must be some new information as we've changed the
> draft as a result of recent discussion and our recommendation for the
> world's most popular language. Your recent statement that it would be
> better if "cmn" was deprecated was totally shocking to me. The suggestion
> that "in practice" zh should be treated as Mandarin is an affront to
> non-Mandarin Chinese languages and will create problems.  I believe there
> are at least four or five longtime followers of this work who are not
> totally comfortable with this decision.
>
> I'm starting to think it would be better for my needs if RFC 4646bis was
> never released. While this may not be true for everyone, RFC 4646bis now
> does not add anything that I personally need and it changes the semantics
> of tags I already use. I do not want to see the "zh" tag narrowed "in
> practice" as that would mean I can't trust any "zh" tag to mean what I
> think it means. I'm not even 100% sure where we stand on Chinese languages
> now and this affects how I feel about extlang. I am afraid I will regret
> putting the words "RFC 4646bis or its successor" into numerous A/V
> standards now that I see ISO 639-6 nearing completion and the unexpected
> turn in the direction of this work.
>
> This update could be a death knell for xml:lang as I don't think
> developers will be able to follow these guidelines consistently.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
> Sony Pictures Entertainment
>
>
>
>
> ltru-bounces@ietf.org wrote on 05/09/2008 03:55:03 PM:
>
>   
>> I'm completely opposed.
>>
>> We spent a long time reviewing all of the issues before coming to a
>> way to move forward on the extlang issue. There has been no new
>> information that was not available at the time we made the decision.
>> It was a very long and involved process. While there are advantages
>> and disadvantages to both sides, I see no reason to believe that we
>> would come to a different conclusion, and it would undoubtedly take
>> a similar amount of time before we come to resolution. I have
>> refrained from responding to those suggesting that extlang was the
>> solution just so as to not complicate the issue, because I really
>> don't think we want to go through that process again.
>>
>> The way that the current text reads, it is absolutely trivial for
>> those who want to support particular macrolanguage fallbacks to do
>> so, and it does not end up with the fallback in the many, many cases
>> where it leads to worse results.
>>
>> Reopening the issue will delay us for no good reason. We have spent
>> long enough on 4646bis, it is time to get this revision out.
>>
>> Mark
>>     
>
>   
>> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
>>     
> wrote:
>   
>> Co-chairs,
>>
>> It seems we have arrived back at an impasse. I still think not
>> having extlang is the correct course.
>>
>> I would not be opposed to restoring extlang, if that is the
>> consensus of the group and provided it can be done expeditiously.
>>
>> Can you please institute some process for resolving this issue--
>> either closing off the reappearance of extlang or deciding to
>> restore it and focusing on completing the draft in the next few
>> weeks under that banner.
>>
>> Addison
>>
>> Addison Phillips
>>
>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>> It is an architecture.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mark _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>   


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... lists
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> >There is an incipient third standard language, and a label for a fourth
> >but no actual separate standard yet, perhaps not ever.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "third" and "fourth".

Standard Bosnian is not yet well-defined.  Standard Montenegrin doesn't
yet exist; although the new Constitution says the national language is
the Montenegrin language, the national language academy says the national
language is Serbian.

> You forgot one, important, unifying thing, namely the special alphabet - 
> or alphabets - which were crafted to unify the two - or more - "breeds" 
> of these encompassed languages. The Serbian Cyrillic alphabet and its 
> corresponding Croatian Latin alphabet, are the only two Latin and 
> Cyrillic alphabets in use which are 100% interchangable - and created to 
> be like that - except when it comes to sorting. 

True that that's very convenient.  AFAIK, though, Standard Croatian is only
written in Latin script, so the advantage is solely for Standard Serbian.
I'd expect to see sr-Latn disappear over time.

-- 
Barry gules and argent of seven and six,        John Cowan
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Debbie Garside 2008-05-10 22.12:
> Subtag: cmn
> Type1: language
> Type2: extlang
> Macrolanguage: zh

Instead of setting a number after the Macrolanguage field,

    Macrolanguage: zh;1

which it seems as if you have dropped anyhow, I would instead propose, 
building on Addison Phillips idea about a Encopassed field, to simply 
insert the Encompassed languages in a **particular order** - or at least 
place the dominant and second most dominant language first:

    Subtag: zh
    Type: language
    Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, etc.
      

Omitting the numbers has the advantage of not ranking the languages with 
a number. It also has the advantage of perhaps giving implementors the 
clue that 'cmn' can only be assumed to be number 1 as long as the 
application itself is localized into 'cmn'.

For a user of Cantonese, the default starting point shouldbe 'yue'. 
Thenafter it should go to the left and lookup 'cmn'. Thenafter either 
one of the other Encompassed languages - or a third langauge. (The issue 
of simplified versus traditional Chinese complicates even further, of 
course.)

To explain better what I mean, let's imagine that the encompassed 
languages had numbers instead of alphabetical codes - and imagine that 
the number '0' = macrolanguage. Thus for Chinese 0 = 'zh'. Then, for the 
dominant language within a macrolanguage, we would get this priority order:

    10, 2, (3, 4)
      

Note that '10' stands for 'cmn' (1) + zh' (0). It should check for 'cmn' first, but at the same time consider 'zh' as part of 'cmn' if 'cmn' is unavailable.

Then I would suggest that if the localisation of for instance the Web browser is the Encompassed language number 2, then browser should assume this *default* order instead:

    20, 1, (3, 4)

Again 'yum' (2) and 'zh' (0) are concatenated into 20.

Wheras an applications localized for Encompassed language 4 should 
rather assuem this default order:

    40, 1, (2, 3)

The paranthesis is meant to indicate that it is lesser certainity about 
whether the users actually would appreciate those languages in the 
fallback order.

Because, users of Encompassed language 2, 3 and 4 would probably all of 
them want to also include encompassed language number 1 as part of their 
fallback scheme. Thus a user of an Encompassed languages which isn't the 
dominant language, would normally want at least 3 codes as part of their 
lookup: the particular language itself, the macrolanguage and the 
dominant language. Their preference _after_ those 3 codes, is a bit more 
difficult to say anything about.

The users of dominant language, though, often requires perhaps would 
want dominant language, macrolanguage and often also the second most 
popular language. Thus, like this:

    10, 2, (3, 4)

Although users of a dominant language may sometimes prefer to set an 
paranthesis around all the Encompassed languages, except their own:

    10, (2, 3, 4)

I think it is important that the macrolanguage, 'zh' for instance, is 
not always assumed to be the dominant language. I.e. 'cmn' should not 
always be considered #1 within 'zh'. Doing so would only make the link 
between 'zh' and 'cmn' stronger. That link should only be made when the 
'zh' application actually is a 'cmn' application. If the localisation 
actually is a 'yum' applcation, then 'zh' should primarely be associated 
with 'yum'.

The twist is, that even if 'yum' gets associated with 'zh', then users 
would still - for example in the Web world - for the most part receive 
'cmn' content. But that is fine. That is what the users expect.

Questions to you: Do you agree that the above is a useful way of 
deciding fallback based on macrolangauge information? Or do you find 
anythign of this questionable? Localizers must of course always judge 
thing carefully, but to me the above seems sensisble, if I may say so.

If you agree with my thoughts here, then I hope it somehow can be 
incorporated into the RFC.


(I just  had to get this of my chest. I'll read mail tomorrow.)
leif halvard silli
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To: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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I agree.

   1. There is absolutely no need for having an "encompassed" field, since
   all the data is in the repository already; it would be completely redundant.
   2. If we wanted a field to indicate that a microlanguage was the
   predominant form for its macrolanguage, it would be possible to add a field
   like "PredominantForm: true" (I don't care about the exact name), and mark
   the cases that are in Table 8 of the draft. (I don't think such a new field
   would be particularly useful, but it wouldn't hurt either.)

Mark

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> This is getting worse by the moment: let's see just have many syntactic
> changes to our record-jar data files we can make, shall we?
>
>
> Peter
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > Debbie Garside
> > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 1:49 PM
> > To: 'Phillips, Addison'; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > Actually, logically perhaps it should read:
> >
> > Subtag: zh
> > Type: Macrolanguage
> >
> >
> > and...
> >
> > Subtag: cmn
> > Type: extlang
> > Macrolanguage: zh;1
> >
> > Subtag: yue
> > Type: extlang
> > Macrolanguage: zh
> >
> > You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios for when a
> > user
> > has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don't need a
> > type 2
> > on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a standalone primary
> > language subtag - that's covered by the text.
> >
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Phillips, Addison
> > > Sent: 10 May 2008 20:02
> > > To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > >
> > > If we need to indicate that a language is a macrolanguage in
> > > the registry, we should use a separate field. Presumably it
> > > would be something like:
> > >
> > > Subtag: zh
> > > Type: language
> > > Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc.
> > >
> > > Or perhaps:
> > >
> > > Subtag: zh
> > > Type: language
> > > Encompasses: cmn
> > > Encompasses: yue
> > > Encompasses: wuu
> > > ... etc ...
> > >
> > > And the encompasses languages would look like:
> > >
> > > Subtag: cmn
> > > Type: language // or extlang
> > > Macrolanguage: zh
> > >
> > > If we were to restore the use of 'extlang', perhaps the above
> > > wouldn't be necessary, since enclosed languages would not be
> > > of the same type and the 'cmn' record would look more like:
> > >
> > > Subtag: cmn
> > > Type: extlang
> > > Macrolanguage: zh
> > > Prefix: zh
> > >
> > > ... but we would have some enclosed languages grandfathered
> > > into the language slot:
> > >
> > > Subtag: nn
> > > Type: language
> > > Macrolanguage: no
> > >
> > > Addison
> > >
> > > Addison Phillips
> > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> > >
> > > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > > It is an architecture.
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> > > On Behalf
> > > > Of Doug Ewell
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:48 AM
> > > > To: LTRU Working Group
> > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > > >
> > > > Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, I could see that you could get a reverse match from the
> > > > languages
> > > > > containing the Macrolanguage field but I still feel that
> > > the actual
> > > > > macrolanguage should be labelled.  If only to stop people from
> > > > > assuming that they should tag all Arabic as 'ar'.  If I
> > > was tagging
> > > > > a document and looking for the right code I might well do
> > > a search
> > > > > for "Arabic" or "Chinese".  The result would not identify
> > > the subtag
> > > > > as a Macrolanguages and thus I may not look any further.
> > > > >
> > > > > For the sake of 50 or so fields, I think it is worth putting a
> > > > > Macrolangauge field in the Registry - for humans to use :-)
> > > >
> > > > I see three particular problems with using the
> > > Macrolanguage field to
> > > > mean two opposite concepts, "this language HAS a macrolanguage" and
> > > > "this language IS a macrolanguage":
> > > >
> > > > 1.  The software problem.  In beginning programming you
> > > learn to use
> > > > values like -1 to mean "not a valid value" or "end of list"
> > > or similar.
> > > > This works OK when the real values are non-negative, such as the
> > > > population of a town, but not so well when the values could be
> > > > negative, such as its elevation.  Also, other parts of the software
> > > > have to know to treat -1 as a special case, not like an ordinary
> > > > value.  Sometimes this gets confusing and you see -1 pop up
> > > in places
> > > > it shouldn't.  In intermediate programming you learn to stop doing
> > > > this, and represent special situations in other ways
> > > >
> > > > Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> > > fruitlessly for
> > > > a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> > > instead of
> > > > remembering that 'True' is a special case.  Remember that 4-letter
> > > > language subtags, though "reserved for future use" (for
> > > some standard,
> > > > I forget which ;-), are valid in the ABNF, and that the casing of
> > > > subtags doesn't matter, though we're supposed to get it
> > > right in the
> > > > Registry.
> > > >
> > > > 2.  The human problem.  I can easily imagine readers of the
> > > Registry
> > > > becoming confused over this dual usage of a single field.
> > > They might
> > > > wonder why other subtags don't have "Macrolanguage: False",
> > > or why 'ar'
> > > > is considered the opposite of 'True'.  They might also experience
> > > > confusion similar to problem 1, as 'tru' is a valid RFC 4646bis
> > > > language subtag for Turoyo.  (At least the proposal wasn't to use
> > > > "Macrolanguage:
> > > > yes", thus causing instant confusion with Yeskwa.)
> > > >
> > > > 3.  The maintenance problem.  Technically the 'True' value is
> > > > redundant information; it can be derived from the records for the
> > > > encompassed languages.  Any time you have to maintain redundant
> > > > information, especially in a different place, there is a
> > > much greater
> > > > chance of making a human mistake.
> > > >
> > > > Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented
> > > with a new
> > > > batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new
> > > > classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed
> > > languages 'qea'
> > > > and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage: qma" on the records for
> > > > 'qea' and 'qeb'
> > > > but forgets to put "Macrolanguage: True" on the record for 'qma'.
> > > > Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> > > this during
> > > > the 1-week review.  We would end up with an internal inconsistency
> > > > within the Registry.  Gosh, your friendly Experts would hate that.
> > > > They
> > > > would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about "process
> > failure"
> > > > and
> > > > the possibility of removal or replacement at the IESG's discretion.
> > > >
> > > > If it is really felt necessary to indicate that 'ar' is a
> > > > macrolanguage in both ways, with a special value on the
> > > macrolanguage
> > > > record as well as the encompassed languages (ignoring
> > > problem 3), then
> > > > we should have two fields, something like
> > > Is-A-Macrolanguage and My-Macrolanguage-Is.
> > > > (Suggestions for better names are solicited.)  As with the Comments
> > > > field, I don't support overloading a single field for fundamentally
> > > > different purposes.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > > > http://www.ewellic.org
> > > > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Ltru mailing list
> > > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I agree. <br><ol><li>There is absolutely no need for having an &quot;encompassed&quot; field, since all the data is in the repository already; it would be completely redundant.<br></li><li>If we wanted a field to indicate that a microlanguage was the predominant form for its macrolanguage, it would be possible to add a field like &quot;PredominantForm: true&quot; (I don&#39;t care about the exact name), and mark the cases that are in Table 8 of the draft. (I don&#39;t think such a new field would be particularly useful, but it wouldn&#39;t hurt either.)<br>
</li></ol>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Peter Constable &lt;<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com" target="_blank">petercon@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">This is getting worse by the moment: let&#39;s see just have many syntactic changes to our record-jar data files we can make, shall we?<br>


<font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Peter<br>
</font><div><br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
</div><div>&gt; Debbie Garside<br>
&gt; Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 1:49 PM<br>
</div><div><div></div><div>&gt; To: &#39;Phillips, Addison&#39;; &#39;Doug Ewell&#39;; &#39;LTRU Working Group&#39;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] I&#39;m really confused by chinese in 3066bis<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Actually, logically perhaps it should read:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Subtag: zh<br>
&gt; Type: Macrolanguage<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Subtag: cmn<br>
&gt; Type: extlang<br>
&gt; Macrolanguage: zh;1<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Subtag: yue<br>
&gt; Type: extlang<br>
&gt; Macrolanguage: zh<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios for when a<br>
&gt; user<br>
&gt; has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don&#39;t need a<br>
&gt; type 2<br>
&gt; on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a standalone primary<br>
&gt; language subtag - that&#39;s covered by the text.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Debbie<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; &gt; Behalf Of Phillips, Addison<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 10 May 2008 20:02<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] I&#39;m really confused by chinese in 3066bis<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If we need to indicate that a language is a macrolanguage in<br>
&gt; &gt; the registry, we should use a separate field. Presumably it<br>
&gt; &gt; would be something like:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subtag: zh<br>
&gt; &gt; Type: language<br>
&gt; &gt; Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Or perhaps:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subtag: zh<br>
&gt; &gt; Type: language<br>
&gt; &gt; Encompasses: cmn<br>
&gt; &gt; Encompasses: yue<br>
&gt; &gt; Encompasses: wuu<br>
&gt; &gt; ... etc ...<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; And the encompasses languages would look like:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subtag: cmn<br>
&gt; &gt; Type: language // or extlang<br>
&gt; &gt; Macrolanguage: zh<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If we were to restore the use of &#39;extlang&#39;, perhaps the above<br>
&gt; &gt; wouldn&#39;t be necessary, since enclosed languages would not be<br>
&gt; &gt; of the same type and the &#39;cmn&#39; record would look more like:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subtag: cmn<br>
&gt; &gt; Type: extlang<br>
&gt; &gt; Macrolanguage: zh<br>
&gt; &gt; Prefix: zh<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ... but we would have some enclosed languages grandfathered<br>
&gt; &gt; into the language slot:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subtag: nn<br>
&gt; &gt; Type: language<br>
&gt; &gt; Macrolanguage: no<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Addison<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Addison Phillips<br>
&gt; &gt; Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
&gt; &gt; It is an architecture.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; On Behalf<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Of Doug Ewell<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:48 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] I&#39;m really confused by chinese in 3066bis<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Debbie Garside &lt;debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, I could see that you could get a reverse match from the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; languages<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; containing the Macrolanguage field but I still feel that<br>
&gt; &gt; the actual<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; macrolanguage should be labelled. &nbsp;If only to stop people from<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; assuming that they should tag all Arabic as &#39;ar&#39;. &nbsp;If I<br>
&gt; &gt; was tagging<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; a document and looking for the right code I might well do<br>
&gt; &gt; a search<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; for &quot;Arabic&quot; or &quot;Chinese&quot;. &nbsp;The result would not identify<br>
&gt; &gt; the subtag<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; as a Macrolanguages and thus I may not look any further.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; For the sake of 50 or so fields, I think it is worth putting a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Macrolangauge field in the Registry - for humans to use :-)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I see three particular problems with using the<br>
&gt; &gt; Macrolanguage field to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; mean two opposite concepts, &quot;this language HAS a macrolanguage&quot; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;this language IS a macrolanguage&quot;:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 1. &nbsp;The software problem. &nbsp;In beginning programming you<br>
&gt; &gt; learn to use<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; values like -1 to mean &quot;not a valid value&quot; or &quot;end of list&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; or similar.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; This works OK when the real values are non-negative, such as the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; population of a town, but not so well when the values could be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; negative, such as its elevation. &nbsp;Also, other parts of the software<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; have to know to treat -1 as a special case, not like an ordinary<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; value. &nbsp;Sometimes this gets confusing and you see -1 pop up<br>
&gt; &gt; in places<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; it shouldn&#39;t. &nbsp;In intermediate programming you learn to stop doing<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; this, and represent special situations in other ways<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking<br>
&gt; &gt; fruitlessly for<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; a language subtag &#39;True&#39; that is the macrolanguage of &#39;ar&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; instead of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; remembering that &#39;True&#39; is a special case. &nbsp;Remember that 4-letter<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; language subtags, though &quot;reserved for future use&quot; (for<br>
&gt; &gt; some standard,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I forget which ;-), are valid in the ABNF, and that the casing of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; subtags doesn&#39;t matter, though we&#39;re supposed to get it<br>
&gt; &gt; right in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Registry.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 2. &nbsp;The human problem. &nbsp;I can easily imagine readers of the<br>
&gt; &gt; Registry<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; becoming confused over this dual usage of a single field.<br>
&gt; &gt; They might<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; wonder why other subtags don&#39;t have &quot;Macrolanguage: False&quot;,<br>
&gt; &gt; or why &#39;ar&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; is considered the opposite of &#39;True&#39;. &nbsp;They might also experience<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; confusion similar to problem 1, as &#39;tru&#39; is a valid RFC 4646bis<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; language subtag for Turoyo. &nbsp;(At least the proposal wasn&#39;t to use<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;Macrolanguage:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; yes&quot;, thus causing instant confusion with Yeskwa.)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 3. &nbsp;The maintenance problem. &nbsp;Technically the &#39;True&#39; value is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; redundant information; it can be derived from the records for the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; encompassed languages. &nbsp;Any time you have to maintain redundant<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; information, especially in a different place, there is a<br>
&gt; &gt; much greater<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; chance of making a human mistake.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented<br>
&gt; &gt; with a new<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; classification of macrolanguage &#39;qma&#39; with encompassed<br>
&gt; &gt; languages &#39;qea&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; and &#39;qeb&#39;, remembers to put &quot;Macrolanguage: qma&quot; on the records for<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &#39;qea&#39; and &#39;qeb&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; but forgets to put &quot;Macrolanguage: True&quot; on the record for &#39;qma&#39;.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn&#39;t catch<br>
&gt; &gt; this during<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the 1-week review. &nbsp;We would end up with an internal inconsistency<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; within the Registry. &nbsp;Gosh, your friendly Experts would hate that.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; They<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about &quot;process<br>
&gt; failure&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the possibility of removal or replacement at the IESG&#39;s discretion.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; If it is really felt necessary to indicate that &#39;ar&#39; is a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; macrolanguage in both ways, with a special value on the<br>
&gt; &gt; macrolanguage<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; record as well as the encompassed languages (ignoring<br>
&gt; &gt; problem 3), then<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; we should have two fields, something like<br>
&gt; &gt; Is-A-Macrolanguage and My-Macrolanguage-Is.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; (Suggestions for better names are solicited.) &nbsp;As with the Comments<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; field, I don&#39;t support overloading a single field for fundamentally<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; different purposes.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Doug Ewell &nbsp;* &nbsp;Arvada, Colorado, USA &nbsp;* &nbsp;RFC 4645 &nbsp;* &nbsp;UTN #14<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.ewellic.org" target="_blank">http://www.ewellic.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html" target="_blank">http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages" target="_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</a> &nbsp;^<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Doug wrote:

> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> >> Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> fruitlessly for
> >> a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> instead of
> >> remembering that 'True' is a special case.
> >
> > Not if it is programmed correctly :-)
>
> Check the ISO 639-6 data (I can't).  Is there any 4-letter
> code element with value 'true'?  Can you guarantee there
> won't be one in the future?
> Can you guarantee that Registry consumers who read this in
> draft-4646bis, Section 2.1:

I have to admit it took me a while to figure out the ref to 639-6 but you
are absolutely right, there is no saying that an alpha4 won't be used within
a Macrolangauge field in the future.  Good catch!

> > I would sack them without hesitation ;-)
>
> I'm pretty sure you're kidding, but we've seen Michael get
> attacked on this list and ietf-languages for human errors
> such as this.

I am :-) But perhaps in bad taste... forgetting the history.

> > Now come, come, this is not the GNSO GA forum you know!
>
> One LTRU member, who has since left the WG, used the term
> "process failure" to describe the addition of new region
> subtags AC, CP, DG, and so forth.  While the IESG might not
> take this seriously, the objections can become pretty
> disconcerting.  The "removal or replacement" bit is from RFC
> 4646 and the current draft.

I see your point... being quite reasonable people ourselves we sometimes
forget that there are unreasonable people out there :-)

Best

Debbie



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:doug@ewellic.org]
> Sent: 11 May 2008 03:04
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Cc: Debbie Garside
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> >> Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> fruitlessly for
> >> a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> instead of
> >> remembering that 'True' is a special case.
> >
> > Not if it is programmed correctly :-)
>
> Check the ISO 639-6 data (I can't).  Is there any 4-letter
> code element with value 'true'?  Can you guarantee there
> won't be one in the future?
> Can you guarantee that Registry consumers who read this in
> draft-4646bis, Section 2.1:
>
> "At all times, the tags and their subtags, including private
> use and extensions, are to be treated as case insensitive:
> there exist conventions for the capitalization of some of the
> subtags, but these MUST NOT be taken to carry meaning."
>
> will still be careful to distinguish 'true' from 'True'?
>
> >> Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented with a
> >> new batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new
> >> classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed languages
> >> 'qea' and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage: qma" on
> the records
> >> for 'qea' and 'qeb' but forgets to put "Macrolanguage:
> True" on the
> >> record for 'qma'.
> >
> > I would sack them without hesitation ;-)
>
> I'm pretty sure you're kidding, but we've seen Michael get
> attacked on this list and ietf-languages for human errors
> such as this.
>
> >> Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> this during
> >> the 1-week review.  We would end up with an internal inconsistency
> >> within the Registry.  Gosh, your friendly Experts would hate that.
> >> They would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about "process
> >> failure" and the possibility of removal or replacement at
> the IESG's
> >> discretion.
> >
> > Now come, come, this is not the GNSO GA forum you know!
>
> One LTRU member, who has since left the WG, used the term
> "process failure" to describe the addition of new region
> subtags AC, CP, DG, and so forth.  While the IESG might not
> take this seriously, the objections can become pretty
> disconcerting.  The "removal or replacement" bit is from RFC
> 4646 and the current draft.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
>
>
>
>




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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli


> Questions to you: Do you agree that the above is a useful way of
> deciding fallback based on macrolangauge information?

Sorry, but no.



Peter
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To: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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Debbie Garside scripsit:

> However, the more I hear about macrolanguages and extlang the more I feel it
> is important to re-visit this.  I also don't like the change in what was
> purported to be a "stable" syntax.

I had hoped -- many had hoped -- it would be stable, but there were never any
guarantees until RFC 4646bis was final.  (Note that the syntax *is* stable
in another sense: it is the validity of particular tags that has changed.)

> From what I have seen so far it pretty much seems like a dogs breakfast and,
> if published as is, I don't think anyone would know how to tag
> macrolanguages or their encompassed entities - we would get a mish mash of
> tagging and that is not what standardization is about.  I think after all
> these months it is worth delaying for a few more weeks to get it as right
> and useful as we possibly can for as many end users as we can.

Part of the trouble has nothing to do with syntax: it's the issue of "zh" vs.
"cmn", which is the same as "zh" vs. "zh-cmn".  That's being struggled with
now, and I think, usefully so.

So if we reopen extlangs, we are reopening a syntax because we think it's
useful to do so.

> With a minimum of 6 people saying they would at least like to revisit the
> extlang issue

Not yet six.

> how many within the teleconferences were against the
> inclusion of extlang?

It's not about how many, it's about how firmly.

> Do you consider there are enough people making "noise" about extlang to
> revisit this?

That's Randy's call, ultimately.  Is there rough consensus?

-- 
"But I am the real Strider, fortunately,"       John Cowan
he said, looking down at them with his face     cowan@ccil.org
softened by a sudden smile.  "I am Aragorn son  http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
of Arathorn, and if by life or death I can
save you, I will."  --LotR Book I Chapter 10
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sun May 11 19:10:59 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] xml:lang syntax
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Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> Doug Ewell wrote:
>
>   
>> A language tag denotes one language.
>>     
>
> For suitable values for "one" and "language", yes.
>
>   
>> A protocol may define ways to
>> combine multiple language tags into one field, as HTTP has done with
>> Accept-Language by separating the tags with semicolons.  But that is
>> defined by and specific to the protocol.
>>     
>
> In the XML context, which is what the discussion is about, there is 
> normally no need to consider the possibility of referring to several 
> languages in one xml:lang attribute. The reason is that for 
> mixed-language content, XML lets (and even encourages, so to say) you to 
> use nested markup so that you can say exactly, for example, which parts 
> of the text are in English and which are in French. This may require 
> additional markup elements for the sole purpose of attaching xml:lang to 
> some piece of text, but that's nothing odd. For a truly bilingual 
> element (with almost equal amounts of text in two languages), you just 
> need to select one language for it and override the language information 
> in nested elements.
>
> However, XML has no way to specify different languages for different 
> _attributes_ of an element. If an element's attribute is in language 
> other than than its content, you can use the workaround of an inner 
> element, just for specifying the language of content, but this won't 
> work for attributes in different languages. The problem is real because 
> nowadays people often put textual data in attributes, as opposite to 
> (what I see as) the original idea in generalized markup where attributes 
> seldom contain text in a human language.
>   

The ITS "Language data category" provides a solutions for this. see
http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#EX-devlang-1
for an example of its usage. The problem you are mentioned could be 
solved like this:
<!-- Document is in English, @info is in German -->
<doc xml:lang="en" info="Information fuer den Uebersetzer">
...
<its:langRule  selector="/doc/@info" langPointer="'de'"/>
</doc>
(note that this usage is not 100% the intention of its:langRule, which 
is meant to point to existing values which are represented not via 
xml:lang, and pointing to them via langPointer . However, using the 
XPath expression 'de' as the value of langPointer will do the job for you.

Felix

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There was some discussion about the W3C validator on this list. Note 
that that validator is DTD-based and does not check additional 
constraints, e.g. about language tag values. There is an HTML validator 
which does such checks, see its usage at
http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FPeople%2Ffsasaki%2F&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml-strict.rnc+http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml.sch+http%3A%2F%2Fc.validator.nu%2Fall-html4%2F&parser=xmldtd&laxtype=yes

Felix

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To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>,
	Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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Just to make sure people don't worry too early:
I have seen this message, and I'm coordinating
with Randy to make sure we take the best way
forward (procedurally) for the WG.

Regards,    Martin.

At 00:44 08/05/10, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>Co-chairs,
>
>It seems we have arrived back at an impasse. I still think not having 
>extlang is the correct course.
>
>I would not be opposed to restoring extlang, if that is the consensus of 
>the group and provided it can be done expeditiously.
>
>Can you please institute some process for resolving this issue--either 
>closing off the reappearance of extlang or deciding to restore it and 
>focusing on completing the draft in the next few weeks under that banner.
>
>Addison
>
>Addison Phillips
>
>Internationalization is not a feature.
>It is an architecture.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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I agree with Peter.  It seems a little more complex than is actually
necessary.

Best

debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: 11 May 2008 23:22
> To: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf
> > Of Leif Halvard Silli
>
>
> > Questions to you: Do you agree that the above is a useful way of
> > deciding fallback based on macrolangauge information?
>
> Sorry, but no.
>
>
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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Addison wrote:

> No, actually we can't "program implementations" without
> breaking existing "well-formed" implementations (which I
> think represents the majority of implementations).

I am not sure I understand this.

> Reliance on metadata in the registry is, of course, something
> you are familiar and comfortable with---ISO 639-6 relies on
> it. But BCP 47--and the matching schemes in particular--have
> historically eschewed such reliance. If we introduce reliance
> on the registry, it breaks the implementations that rely
> solely on tag structure. Arguments between extlangistas and
> non-extlangistas have greatly revolved around this particular problem.

Or this... I take it you mean that implementations are just looking at the
syntax to see if it is wellformed and not hardcoding the registry within.
Can you give an example?

> If this were just a one-time thing, such as the grandfathered
> list, it might not be so bad, since we could give the list to
> hardcode in the RFC. But there is no indication that the
> macrolanguage list is closed or particularly stable (even if
> entries are stable, new ones will probably be created).

But that is same across the Registry - new entities are created all the
time.

> BCP 47 is not the perfect language identifier system that
> suits all needs everywhere. It is a compromise that suits
> many applications.
>
> Of course, I'm also pretty sure that a "perfect" language
> identifier system is not likely to appear, since any such
> system must make choices about how to split or lump languages
> and thus will ill-serve some application.

Indeed.

Best

Debbie



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> Sent: 10 May 2008 22:07
> To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> > You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios
> for when a
> > user has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don't
> > need a type 2 on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a
> > standalone primary language subtag - that's covered by the text.
>
> No, actually we can't "program implementations" without
> breaking existing "well-formed" implementations (which I
> think represents the majority of implementations).
>
> Reliance on metadata in the registry is, of course, something
> you are familiar and comfortable with---ISO 639-6 relies on
> it. But BCP 47--and the matching schemes in particular--have
> historically eschewed such reliance. If we introduce reliance
> on the registry, it breaks the implementations that rely
> solely on tag structure. Arguments between extlangistas and
> non-extlangistas have greatly revolved around this particular problem.
>
> If this were just a one-time thing, such as the grandfathered
> list, it might not be so bad, since we could give the list to
> hardcode in the RFC. But there is no indication that the
> macrolanguage list is closed or particularly stable (even if
> entries are stable, new ones will probably be created).
>
> BCP 47 is not the perfect language identifier system that
> suits all needs everywhere. It is a compromise that suits
> many applications.
>
> Of course, I'm also pretty sure that a "perfect" language
> identifier system is not likely to appear, since any such
> system must make choices about how to split or lump languages
> and thus will ill-serve some application.
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]
> > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 1:49 PM
> > To: Phillips, Addison; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > Actually, logically perhaps it should read:
> >
> > Subtag: zh
> > Type: Macrolanguage
> >
> >
> > and...
> >
> > Subtag: cmn
> > Type: extlang
> > Macrolanguage: zh;1
> >
> > Subtag: yue
> > Type: extlang
> > Macrolanguage: zh
> >
> > You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios
> for when a
> > user has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don't
> > need a type 2 on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a
> > standalone primary language subtag - that's covered by the text.
> >
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > > Of Phillips, Addison
> > > Sent: 10 May 2008 20:02
> > > To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > >
> > > If we need to indicate that a language is a macrolanguage in the
> > > registry, we should use a separate field. Presumably it would be
> > > something like:
> > >
> > > Subtag: zh
> > > Type: language
> > > Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc.
> > >
> > > Or perhaps:
> > >
> > > Subtag: zh
> > > Type: language
> > > Encompasses: cmn
> > > Encompasses: yue
> > > Encompasses: wuu
> > > ... etc ...
> > >
> > > And the encompasses languages would look like:
> > >
> > > Subtag: cmn
> > > Type: language // or extlang
> > > Macrolanguage: zh
> > >
> > > If we were to restore the use of 'extlang', perhaps the above
> > > wouldn't be necessary, since enclosed languages would not
> be of the
> > > same type and the 'cmn' record would look more like:
> > >
> > > Subtag: cmn
> > > Type: extlang
> > > Macrolanguage: zh
> > > Prefix: zh
> > >
> > > ... but we would have some enclosed languages
> grandfathered into the
> > > language slot:
> > >
> > > Subtag: nn
> > > Type: language
> > > Macrolanguage: no
> > >
> > > Addison
> > >
> > > Addison Phillips
> > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> > >
> > > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > > It is an architecture.
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> > > On Behalf
> > > > Of Doug Ewell
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:48 AM
> > > > To: LTRU Working Group
> > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > > >
> > > > Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, I could see that you could get a reverse match from the
> > > > languages
> > > > > containing the Macrolanguage field but I still feel that
> > > the actual
> > > > > macrolanguage should be labelled.  If only to stop
> people from
> > > > > assuming that they should tag all Arabic as 'ar'.  If I
> > > was tagging
> > > > > a document and looking for the right code I might well do
> > > a search
> > > > > for "Arabic" or "Chinese".  The result would not identify
> > > the subtag
> > > > > as a Macrolanguages and thus I may not look any further.
> > > > >
> > > > > For the sake of 50 or so fields, I think it is worth
> putting a
> > > > > Macrolangauge field in the Registry - for humans to use :-)
> > > >
> > > > I see three particular problems with using the
> > > Macrolanguage field to
> > > > mean two opposite concepts, "this language HAS a macrolanguage"
> > > > and "this language IS a macrolanguage":
> > > >
> > > > 1.  The software problem.  In beginning programming you
> > > learn to use
> > > > values like -1 to mean "not a valid value" or "end of list"
> > > or similar.
> > > > This works OK when the real values are non-negative,
> such as the
> > > > population of a town, but not so well when the values could be
> > > > negative, such as its elevation.  Also, other parts of the
> > > > software have to know to treat -1 as a special case,
> not like an
> > > > ordinary value.  Sometimes this gets confusing and you
> see -1 pop
> > > > up
> > > in places
> > > > it shouldn't.  In intermediate programming you learn to
> stop doing
> > > > this, and represent special situations in other ways
> > > >
> > > > Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> > > fruitlessly for
> > > > a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> > > instead of
> > > > remembering that 'True' is a special case.  Remember
> that 4-letter
> > > > language subtags, though "reserved for future use" (for
> > > some standard,
> > > > I forget which ;-), are valid in the ABNF, and that the
> casing of
> > > > subtags doesn't matter, though we're supposed to get it
> > > right in the
> > > > Registry.
> > > >
> > > > 2.  The human problem.  I can easily imagine readers of the
> > > Registry
> > > > becoming confused over this dual usage of a single field.
> > > They might
> > > > wonder why other subtags don't have "Macrolanguage: False",
> > > or why 'ar'
> > > > is considered the opposite of 'True'.  They might also
> experience
> > > > confusion similar to problem 1, as 'tru' is a valid RFC 4646bis
> > > > language subtag for Turoyo.  (At least the proposal
> wasn't to use
> > > > "Macrolanguage:
> > > > yes", thus causing instant confusion with Yeskwa.)
> > > >
> > > > 3.  The maintenance problem.  Technically the 'True' value is
> > > > redundant information; it can be derived from the
> records for the
> > > > encompassed languages.  Any time you have to maintain redundant
> > > > information, especially in a different place, there is a
> > > much greater
> > > > chance of making a human mistake.
> > > >
> > > > Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented
> > > with a new
> > > > batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new
> > > > classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed
> > > languages 'qea'
> > > > and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage: qma" on the records
> > > > for 'qea' and 'qeb'
> > > > but forgets to put "Macrolanguage: True" on the record
> for 'qma'.
> > > > Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> > > this during
> > > > the 1-week review.  We would end up with an internal
> inconsistency
> > > > within the Registry.  Gosh, your friendly Experts would
> hate that.
> > > > They
> > > > would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about "process
> > failure"
> > > > and
> > > > the possibility of removal or replacement at the IESG's
> discretion.
> > > >
> > > > If it is really felt necessary to indicate that 'ar' is a
> > > > macrolanguage in both ways, with a special value on the
> > > macrolanguage
> > > > record as well as the encompassed languages (ignoring
> > > problem 3), then
> > > > we should have two fields, something like
> > > Is-A-Macrolanguage and My-Macrolanguage-Is.
> > > > (Suggestions for better names are solicited.)  As with the
> > > > Comments field, I don't support overloading a single field for
> > > > fundamentally different purposes.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > > > http://www.ewellic.org
> > > > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Ltru mailing list
> > > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>




_______________________________________________
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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
References: <mailman.3271.1210174179.4851.ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Just as an aside.  I checked... 'true' is not in the registry and I could
make it an unusable code for ISO 639-6 by adding it to the already
used/don't use Alpha4 check list that I have.

best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:doug@ewellic.org]
> Sent: 11 May 2008 03:04
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Cc: Debbie Garside
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> >> Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> fruitlessly for
> >> a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> instead of
> >> remembering that 'True' is a special case.
> >
> > Not if it is programmed correctly :-)
>
> Check the ISO 639-6 data (I can't).  Is there any 4-letter
> code element with value 'true'?  Can you guarantee there
> won't be one in the future?
> Can you guarantee that Registry consumers who read this in
> draft-4646bis, Section 2.1:
>
> "At all times, the tags and their subtags, including private
> use and extensions, are to be treated as case insensitive:
> there exist conventions for the capitalization of some of the
> subtags, but these MUST NOT be taken to carry meaning."
>
> will still be careful to distinguish 'true' from 'True'?
>
> >> Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented with a
> >> new batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new
> >> classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed languages
> >> 'qea' and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage: qma" on
> the records
> >> for 'qea' and 'qeb' but forgets to put "Macrolanguage:
> True" on the
> >> record for 'qma'.
> >
> > I would sack them without hesitation ;-)
>
> I'm pretty sure you're kidding, but we've seen Michael get
> attacked on this list and ietf-languages for human errors
> such as this.
>
> >> Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> this during
> >> the 1-week review.  We would end up with an internal inconsistency
> >> within the Registry.  Gosh, your friendly Experts would hate that.
> >> They would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about "process
> >> failure" and the possibility of removal or replacement at
> the IESG's
> >> discretion.
> >
> > Now come, come, this is not the GNSO GA forum you know!
>
> One LTRU member, who has since left the WG, used the term
> "process failure" to describe the addition of new region
> subtags AC, CP, DG, and so forth.  While the IESG might not
> take this seriously, the objections can become pretty
> disconcerting.  The "removal or replacement" bit is from RFC
> 4646 and the current draft.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
>
>
>
>




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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Peter Constable'" <petercon@microsoft.com>,
	"'Phillips, Addison'" <addison@amazon.com>,
	"'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
References: <mailman.3271.1210174179.4851.ltru@ietf.org><005201c8b0b2$f20db130$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><00be01c8b0ec$ea8d7a50$0b00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><007701c8b191$83452460$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><01e501c8b1f2$13111df0$0b00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><004001c8b25d$2969c780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><026c01c8b276$bf5a7280$0b00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><006001c8b2ce$577e6f10$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0139CEB1F0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com>
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Subject: [Ltru] Record-Jar Format (was RE: I'm really confused by chinese in
	3066bis)
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For me, record-jar is a dogs breakfast.

If we really want Joe Public to start tagging data correctly we need to
facilitate the provision of data in an XML format that can be imported into
proprietary software.  Frank and I did some work on this many moons ago and
we were about 99% of the way there - this needs to be completed and made
publicly available.  I'm not suggesting that this should form part of the
RFC but a tool should be created and (if possible) referenced within the
RFC.  (perhaps via Stephane's site)

And, whilst I am busy sticking spanners in the works, I would like to bring
up the idea (again) of being able to reference the RFC within the tag (if
desired).  This is extremely important for archiving purposes.

Best

Debbie



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com]
> Sent: 11 May 2008 00:51
> To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Phillips, Addison'; 'Doug
> Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> This is getting worse by the moment: let's see just have many
> syntactic changes to our record-jar data files we can make, shall we?
>
>
> Peter
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf
> > Of Debbie Garside
> > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 1:49 PM
> > To: 'Phillips, Addison'; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > Actually, logically perhaps it should read:
> >
> > Subtag: zh
> > Type: Macrolanguage
> >
> >
> > and...
> >
> > Subtag: cmn
> > Type: extlang
> > Macrolanguage: zh;1
> >
> > Subtag: yue
> > Type: extlang
> > Macrolanguage: zh
> >
> > You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios
> for when a
> > user has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don't
> > need a type 2 on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a
> > standalone primary language subtag - that's covered by the text.
> >
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > > Of Phillips, Addison
> > > Sent: 10 May 2008 20:02
> > > To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > >
> > > If we need to indicate that a language is a macrolanguage in the
> > > registry, we should use a separate field. Presumably it would be
> > > something like:
> > >
> > > Subtag: zh
> > > Type: language
> > > Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc.
> > >
> > > Or perhaps:
> > >
> > > Subtag: zh
> > > Type: language
> > > Encompasses: cmn
> > > Encompasses: yue
> > > Encompasses: wuu
> > > ... etc ...
> > >
> > > And the encompasses languages would look like:
> > >
> > > Subtag: cmn
> > > Type: language // or extlang
> > > Macrolanguage: zh
> > >
> > > If we were to restore the use of 'extlang', perhaps the above
> > > wouldn't be necessary, since enclosed languages would not
> be of the
> > > same type and the 'cmn' record would look more like:
> > >
> > > Subtag: cmn
> > > Type: extlang
> > > Macrolanguage: zh
> > > Prefix: zh
> > >
> > > ... but we would have some enclosed languages
> grandfathered into the
> > > language slot:
> > >
> > > Subtag: nn
> > > Type: language
> > > Macrolanguage: no
> > >
> > > Addison
> > >
> > > Addison Phillips
> > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> > >
> > > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > > It is an architecture.
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> > > On Behalf
> > > > Of Doug Ewell
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:48 AM
> > > > To: LTRU Working Group
> > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> > > >
> > > > Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, I could see that you could get a reverse match from the
> > > > languages
> > > > > containing the Macrolanguage field but I still feel that
> > > the actual
> > > > > macrolanguage should be labelled.  If only to stop
> people from
> > > > > assuming that they should tag all Arabic as 'ar'.  If I
> > > was tagging
> > > > > a document and looking for the right code I might well do
> > > a search
> > > > > for "Arabic" or "Chinese".  The result would not identify
> > > the subtag
> > > > > as a Macrolanguages and thus I may not look any further.
> > > > >
> > > > > For the sake of 50 or so fields, I think it is worth
> putting a
> > > > > Macrolangauge field in the Registry - for humans to use :-)
> > > >
> > > > I see three particular problems with using the
> > > Macrolanguage field to
> > > > mean two opposite concepts, "this language HAS a macrolanguage"
> > > > and "this language IS a macrolanguage":
> > > >
> > > > 1.  The software problem.  In beginning programming you
> > > learn to use
> > > > values like -1 to mean "not a valid value" or "end of list"
> > > or similar.
> > > > This works OK when the real values are non-negative,
> such as the
> > > > population of a town, but not so well when the values could be
> > > > negative, such as its elevation.  Also, other parts of the
> > > > software have to know to treat -1 as a special case,
> not like an
> > > > ordinary value.  Sometimes this gets confusing and you
> see -1 pop
> > > > up
> > > in places
> > > > it shouldn't.  In intermediate programming you learn to
> stop doing
> > > > this, and represent special situations in other ways
> > > >
> > > > Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> > > fruitlessly for
> > > > a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> > > instead of
> > > > remembering that 'True' is a special case.  Remember
> that 4-letter
> > > > language subtags, though "reserved for future use" (for
> > > some standard,
> > > > I forget which ;-), are valid in the ABNF, and that the
> casing of
> > > > subtags doesn't matter, though we're supposed to get it
> > > right in the
> > > > Registry.
> > > >
> > > > 2.  The human problem.  I can easily imagine readers of the
> > > Registry
> > > > becoming confused over this dual usage of a single field.
> > > They might
> > > > wonder why other subtags don't have "Macrolanguage: False",
> > > or why 'ar'
> > > > is considered the opposite of 'True'.  They might also
> experience
> > > > confusion similar to problem 1, as 'tru' is a valid RFC 4646bis
> > > > language subtag for Turoyo.  (At least the proposal
> wasn't to use
> > > > "Macrolanguage:
> > > > yes", thus causing instant confusion with Yeskwa.)
> > > >
> > > > 3.  The maintenance problem.  Technically the 'True' value is
> > > > redundant information; it can be derived from the
> records for the
> > > > encompassed languages.  Any time you have to maintain redundant
> > > > information, especially in a different place, there is a
> > > much greater
> > > > chance of making a human mistake.
> > > >
> > > > Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented
> > > with a new
> > > > batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new
> > > > classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed
> > > languages 'qea'
> > > > and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage: qma" on the records
> > > > for 'qea' and 'qeb'
> > > > but forgets to put "Macrolanguage: True" on the record
> for 'qma'.
> > > > Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> > > this during
> > > > the 1-week review.  We would end up with an internal
> inconsistency
> > > > within the Registry.  Gosh, your friendly Experts would
> hate that.
> > > > They
> > > > would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about "process
> > failure"
> > > > and
> > > > the possibility of removal or replacement at the IESG's
> discretion.
> > > >
> > > > If it is really felt necessary to indicate that 'ar' is a
> > > > macrolanguage in both ways, with a special value on the
> > > macrolanguage
> > > > record as well as the encompassed languages (ignoring
> > > problem 3), then
> > > > we should have two fields, something like
> > > Is-A-Macrolanguage and My-Macrolanguage-Is.
> > > > (Suggestions for better names are solicited.)  As with the
> > > > Comments field, I don't support overloading a single field for
> > > > fundamentally different purposes.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > > > http://www.ewellic.org
> > > > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Ltru mailing list
> > > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>, "'Doug Ewell'"
	<doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:13:41 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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Why bother?

I oppose having two completely different types of values in the same field. It making parsing a lot more difficult.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Debbie Garside
> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> Just as an aside.  I checked... 'true' is not in the registry and I
> could
> make it an unusable code for ISO 639-6 by adding it to the already
> used/don't use Alpha4 check list that I have.
>
> best
>
> Debbie
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Doug Ewell [mailto:doug@ewellic.org]
> > Sent: 11 May 2008 03:04
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Cc: Debbie Garside
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
> >
> > Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
> >
> > >> Similarly, it is possible to imagine software looking
> > fruitlessly for
> > >> a language subtag 'True' that is the macrolanguage of 'ar'
> > instead of
> > >> remembering that 'True' is a special case.
> > >
> > > Not if it is programmed correctly :-)
> >
> > Check the ISO 639-6 data (I can't).  Is there any 4-letter
> > code element with value 'true'?  Can you guarantee there
> > won't be one in the future?
> > Can you guarantee that Registry consumers who read this in
> > draft-4646bis, Section 2.1:
> >
> > "At all times, the tags and their subtags, including private
> > use and extensions, are to be treated as case insensitive:
> > there exist conventions for the capitalization of some of the
> > subtags, but these MUST NOT be taken to carry meaning."
> >
> > will still be careful to distinguish 'true' from 'True'?
> >
> > >> Suppose your friendly team of Designated Experts, presented with a
> > >> new batch of several dozen ISO 639-3 changes including a new
> > >> classification of macrolanguage 'qma' with encompassed languages
> > >> 'qea' and 'qeb', remembers to put "Macrolanguage: qma" on
> > the records
> > >> for 'qea' and 'qeb' but forgets to put "Macrolanguage:
> > True" on the
> > >> record for 'qma'.
> > >
> > > I would sack them without hesitation ;-)
> >
> > I'm pretty sure you're kidding, but we've seen Michael get
> > attacked on this list and ietf-languages for human errors
> > such as this.
> >
> > >> Suppose further that the ietf-languages list didn't catch
> > this during
> > >> the 1-week review.  We would end up with an internal inconsistency
> > >> within the Registry.  Gosh, your friendly Experts would hate that.
> > >> They would also hate the inevitable e-mail flames about "process
> > >> failure" and the possibility of removal or replacement at
> > the IESG's
> > >> discretion.
> > >
> > > Now come, come, this is not the GNSO GA forum you know!
> >
> > One LTRU member, who has since left the WG, used the term
> > "process failure" to describe the addition of new region
> > subtags AC, CP, DG, and so forth.  While the IESG might not
> > take this seriously, the objections can become pretty
> > disconcerting.  The "removal or replacement" bit is from RFC
> > 4646 and the current draft.
> >
> > --
> > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > http://www.ewellic.org
> > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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>
> Addison wrote:
>
> > No, actually we can't "program implementations" without
> > breaking existing "well-formed" implementations (which I
> > think represents the majority of implementations).
>
> I am not sure I understand this.

What you said was:

> You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios for when a
> user
> has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don't need a
> type 2
> on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a standalone primary
> language subtag - that's covered by the text.

"Programming into implementations" information about which extlang subtags can be used as primary language subtags requires a table of items from the registry. Implementations that rely on remove-from-right solely (i.e. "well-formed" implementations, as opposed to "validating" implementations) will not have this information and will get it wrong.

>
> > Reliance on metadata in the registry is, of course, something
> > you are familiar and comfortable with---ISO 639-6 relies on
> > it. But BCP 47--and the matching schemes in particular--have
> > historically eschewed such reliance. If we introduce reliance
> > on the registry, it breaks the implementations that rely
> > solely on tag structure. Arguments between extlangistas and
> > non-extlangistas have greatly revolved around this particular problem.
>
> Or this... I take it you mean that implementations are just looking at
> the
> syntax to see if it is wellformed and not hardcoding the registry
> within.

Yes: well-formedness relies solely on the syntax rules. We don't require a copy of the registry for that. Validation requires a copy of the registry.


> Can you give an example?
>
> > If this were just a one-time thing, such as the grandfathered
> > list, it might not be so bad, since we could give the list to
> > hardcode in the RFC. But there is no indication that the
> > macrolanguage list is closed or particularly stable (even if
> > entries are stable, new ones will probably be created).
>
> But that is same across the Registry - new entities are created all the
> time.

New entries are created all the time. Validating implementations rely on the registry as of some particular registry date. But well-formedness is not affected by this. You don't have to know what the tags mean to do many operations on them.

What I'm suggesting is that: if we are going to *require* that tags of the form "yue-*" be treated as equivalent to tags of the form "zh-yue-*", that might be okay (I'm not convinced that it is, please note) if the list were short, closed, and stable. If, however, it changes over time, it is hard on implementations that otherwise have no use for the registry.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.



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So, basically, what I said is true as long as we don't create additional
Macrolanguages.

Are there likely to be additional Macrolanguages created in the future?  If
so, then you need to say when they can be registered - purely by following
ISO 639 or some other procedure.

If we take Macrolangauges as just a hack to get around what had happened
within previous ISO 639 standards there will be no problem.

best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
> Sent: 12 May 2008 16:21
> To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
>
> >
> > Addison wrote:
> >
> > > No, actually we can't "program implementations" without breaking
> > > existing "well-formed" implementations (which I think
> represents the
> > > majority of implementations).
> >
> > I am not sure I understand this.
>
> What you said was:
>
> > You can easily programme into implementations the scenarios
> for when a
> > user has used an extlang as a primary language subtag and you don't
> > need a type 2 on the macrolanguage to say that it can be used as a
> > standalone primary language subtag - that's covered by the text.
>
> "Programming into implementations" information about which
> extlang subtags can be used as primary language subtags
> requires a table of items from the registry. Implementations
> that rely on remove-from-right solely (i.e. "well-formed"
> implementations, as opposed to "validating" implementations)
> will not have this information and will get it wrong.
>
> >
> > > Reliance on metadata in the registry is, of course, something you
> > > are familiar and comfortable with---ISO 639-6 relies on
> it. But BCP
> > > 47--and the matching schemes in particular--have historically
> > > eschewed such reliance. If we introduce reliance on the
> registry, it
> > > breaks the implementations that rely solely on tag structure.
> > > Arguments between extlangistas and non-extlangistas have greatly
> > > revolved around this particular problem.
> >
> > Or this... I take it you mean that implementations are just
> looking at
> > the syntax to see if it is wellformed and not hardcoding
> the registry
> > within.
>
> Yes: well-formedness relies solely on the syntax rules. We
> don't require a copy of the registry for that. Validation
> requires a copy of the registry.
>
>
> > Can you give an example?
> >
> > > If this were just a one-time thing, such as the
> grandfathered list,
> > > it might not be so bad, since we could give the list to
> hardcode in
> > > the RFC. But there is no indication that the
> macrolanguage list is
> > > closed or particularly stable (even if entries are
> stable, new ones
> > > will probably be created).
> >
> > But that is same across the Registry - new entities are created all
> > the time.
>
> New entries are created all the time. Validating
> implementations rely on the registry as of some particular
> registry date. But well-formedness is not affected by this.
> You don't have to know what the tags mean to do many
> operations on them.
>
> What I'm suggesting is that: if we are going to *require*
> that tags of the form "yue-*" be treated as equivalent to
> tags of the form "zh-yue-*", that might be okay (I'm not
> convinced that it is, please note) if the list were short,
> closed, and stable. If, however, it changes over time, it is
> hard on implementations that otherwise have no use for the registry.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
>




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>
> So, basically, what I said is true as long as we don't create
> additional Macrolanguages.

Not necessarily. It still breaks existing implementations that don't know about the relationship between the subtag flavors.

>
> Are there likely to be additional Macrolanguages created in the future?

I don't really know, but suspect that the current ISO 639-3 is not the last word in language classification. I would be a little surprised if some of the languages that appear to the ISO 639-3 RA to be atomic today didn't turn out to be macrolanguages in the future.

> If
> so, then you need to say when they can be registered - purely by
> following
> ISO 639 or some other procedure.

(boggle) The draft already says this. Macrolanguage relationships in the registry follow ISO 639's classifications.

>
> If we take Macrolangauges as just a hack to get around what had
> happened
> within previous ISO 639 standards there will be no problem.

Any decomposition of a language into two or more species of language will recreate the problem. Admittedly, I don't expect to see very many "major" languages (that is, ones of large commercial interest) exhibit this. But just because Quechua isn't important in commercial software doesn't make it unimportant to its speakers. So I tend to hesitate in treating "macrolanguage" as a hack.

Addison

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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Doug wrote:

> In the flood of messages on this topic, I can't find the statement in 
> the archives that 'cmn' should be deprecated.  I hope to heaven that is 
> a misquote.

(For the record, this was the message I was referring to...)

Mark Davis wrote:

Not so sure that we will get accuracy; frankly I think the introduction of 
cmn, arb, etc. were well intentioned, but in retrospect a mistake. There 
was no reason not to treat zh, ar, etc just like we treated de. There is 
no substantive difference between zh:yue and de:gsw.

Given the existence and long usage of zh in IT, the introduction of cmn 
(etc) will inevitably just end up with mistagged data, mishandled lookups, 
and unsatisfied users, unless one follows the strategy that unless you 
have a strong reason not to, treat cmn as a synonym for zh. (In fact, it 
is simplest to remap cmn-* to zh-* on input.)

[Our best course of action for compatibility and interoperability would be 
to deprecate cmn, arb, and the few others in that section, but I doubt 
that we could get consensus on that, so I'd never brought it up.]

Karen writes:

Above is the text I was referencing. Though Mark hasn't suggested that we 
actually do this, the fact that he thinks this would be helpful tells me 
that we're looking at this very differently. I'm someone who needs these 
distinctions so I guess I find the continued existence of the "zh" tag to 
be more of a problem than the introduction of the more specific tagging I 
need. 




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Note: I will be unable to access my e-mail from 6 p.m. PDT today until to 
8 a.m. tomorrow due to a change in my e-mail service. I'm sending this 
warning mostly in case something goes wrong and I'm blocked out of my 
e-mail for longer. If past experience serves, there's also a chance that 
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missed connections due to this service change in advance.

Regards,

Karen Broome
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310.244.4384

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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>, Doug Ewell
	<doug@ewellic.org>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:11:27 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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> I'm someone who needs these
> distinctions so I guess I find the continued existence of the "zh" tag
> to be more of a problem than the introduction of the more specific tagging
> I need.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around a suitable resolution that addresses the various needs expressed on this list. I tend to agree that you need specific tagging for stuff like written Cantonese and spoken Mandarin, etc. Historical use of vague tags, ascribing meaning not actually in the subtags, is not helpful.

How do you think this would best be solved? If I understand your previous messages, you'd prefer to see:

- Restore 'extlang'
- Require the extlang subtag to be used (via the SHOULD keyword??)
- Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't specifically one sort or another: specificity is desirable.

Or would you prefer:

- Not restore 'extlang'
- Possibly deprecate 'zh' (with no preferred-value)
- Clarify that users SHOULD use the specific flavor of Chinese, with additional subtags as appropriate
- Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't specifically one sort or another

Or, finally:

- Restore 'extlang'
- Allow the encompassed languages to be both extlangs and primary subtags
- Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't specifically one sort or another: specificity is desirable.
- Provide guidelines for choosing between 'zh-???" and "???" forms.

Best Regards,

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 2:58 PM
> To: Doug Ewell
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
>
> Doug wrote:
>
> > In the flood of messages on this topic, I can't find the statement in
> > the archives that 'cmn' should be deprecated.  I hope to heaven that
> is
> > a misquote.
>
> (For the record, this was the message I was referring to...)
>
> Mark Davis wrote:
>
> Not so sure that we will get accuracy; frankly I think the introduction
> of
> cmn, arb, etc. were well intentioned, but in retrospect a mistake.
> There
> was no reason not to treat zh, ar, etc just like we treated de. There
> is
> no substantive difference between zh:yue and de:gsw.
>
> Given the existence and long usage of zh in IT, the introduction of cmn
> (etc) will inevitably just end up with mistagged data, mishandled
> lookups,
> and unsatisfied users, unless one follows the strategy that unless you
> have a strong reason not to, treat cmn as a synonym for zh. (In fact,
> it
> is simplest to remap cmn-* to zh-* on input.)
>
> [Our best course of action for compatibility and interoperability would
> be
> to deprecate cmn, arb, and the few others in that section, but I doubt
> that we could get consensus on that, so I'd never brought it up.]
>
> Karen writes:
>
> Above is the text I was referencing. Though Mark hasn't suggested that
> we
> actually do this, the fact that he thinks this would be helpful tells
> me
> that we're looking at this very differently. I'm someone who needs
> these
> distinctions so I guess I find the continued existence of the "zh" tag
> to
> be more of a problem than the introduction of the more specific tagging
> I
> need.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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Addison,

Tough call, really. 

I think my preference is #1 because nothing needs to be deprecated, the 
language hierarchies are represented for all macrolanguages, tag semantics 
don't change, and the legacy connection to "zh" is preserved. I would also 
be satisfied with #2 with the suggestion to deprecate "zh". 

I *might* not be opposed to #3, but fear it might be as confusing as what 
we've got now. I'm open to hearing suggestions on #3 with better spelled 
out usage rules.

Regards,

Karen Broome





"Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com> 
Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
05/12/2008 04:11 PM

To
"Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>, Doug Ewell 
<doug@ewellic.org>
cc
LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang






> I'm someone who needs these
> distinctions so I guess I find the continued existence of the "zh" tag
> to be more of a problem than the introduction of the more specific 
tagging
> I need.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around a suitable resolution that addresses 
the various needs expressed on this list. I tend to agree that you need 
specific tagging for stuff like written Cantonese and spoken Mandarin, 
etc. Historical use of vague tags, ascribing meaning not actually in the 
subtags, is not helpful.

How do you think this would best be solved? If I understand your previous 
messages, you'd prefer to see:

- Restore 'extlang'
- Require the extlang subtag to be used (via the SHOULD keyword??)
- Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't 
specifically one sort or another: specificity is desirable.

Or would you prefer:

- Not restore 'extlang'
- Possibly deprecate 'zh' (with no preferred-value)
- Clarify that users SHOULD use the specific flavor of Chinese, with 
additional subtags as appropriate
- Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't 
specifically one sort or another

Or, finally:

- Restore 'extlang'
- Allow the encompassed languages to be both extlangs and primary subtags
- Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't 
specifically one sort or another: specificity is desirable.
- Provide guidelines for choosing between 'zh-???" and "???" forms.

Best Regards,

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 2:58 PM
> To: Doug Ewell
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
>
> Doug wrote:
>
> > In the flood of messages on this topic, I can't find the statement in
> > the archives that 'cmn' should be deprecated.  I hope to heaven that
> is
> > a misquote.
>
> (For the record, this was the message I was referring to...)
>
> Mark Davis wrote:
>
> Not so sure that we will get accuracy; frankly I think the introduction
> of
> cmn, arb, etc. were well intentioned, but in retrospect a mistake.
> There
> was no reason not to treat zh, ar, etc just like we treated de. There
> is
> no substantive difference between zh:yue and de:gsw.
>
> Given the existence and long usage of zh in IT, the introduction of cmn
> (etc) will inevitably just end up with mistagged data, mishandled
> lookups,
> and unsatisfied users, unless one follows the strategy that unless you
> have a strong reason not to, treat cmn as a synonym for zh. (In fact,
> it
> is simplest to remap cmn-* to zh-* on input.)
>
> [Our best course of action for compatibility and interoperability would
> be
> to deprecate cmn, arb, and the few others in that section, but I doubt
> that we could get consensus on that, so I'd never brought it up.]
>
> Karen writes:
>
> Above is the text I was referencing. Though Mark hasn't suggested that
> we
> actually do this, the fact that he thinks this would be helpful tells
> me
> that we're looking at this very differently. I'm someone who needs
> these
> distinctions so I guess I find the continued existence of the "zh" tag
> to
> be more of a problem than the introduction of the more specific tagging
> I
> need.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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	"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi>
From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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I have marked this contribution off-topic, because
this list is about LTRU, not XML.
I hope we can reduce the flow of data on the list
a bit, so that a bit more people (including the chairs :-()
have a chance to follow.

Regards,    Martin.

At 23:46 08/05/09, Mark Davis wrote:

>This isn't formally a problem with XML, since you can always design a format that bundles together multiple xml:langs as applying to some text, and you also don't have to use xml:lang to mark text: you can use your own attribute, containing a list. But it would be less clumsy if xml:lang took a list, or we had xml:langs that did.

It would be less clumsy for those very very rare cases where you really
think you need this. It would make things more clumsy for all other
cases, the vast majority.

xml:lang is very convenient in many cases. It is in particular convenient
if you use XML the way it is intended, i.e. for hierarchical structures,
with markup where needed (e.g. for language changes), without natural
text in attributes,... XML is less appropriate for data that cannot
be described hierarchically (there are for example quite a few approaches
to encoding parallel texts in XML, none optimal), or where you aren't
sure about the structure of the data or the significance of certain
pieces.

In more concrete terms, we have been talking about cases where e.g.
you don't know whether a snippet of text is French or English.
Now assume that you have an XML application that allows you to mark
up something as an emphasis or as a variable name (HTML <em> and <var>).
Assume you have some data where you don't know which to choose.
XML doesn't offer you a <em-or-var> tag (unless you create one on
your own). The fact that xml:lang accepts only one language
therefore seems to be very much in line with much more general
(so general that they are rarely even expressed) design principles
of XML, and therefore perfectly fine.

Regards,    Martin.



#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:39:09 +0900
To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>, Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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At 09:46 08/05/12, John Cowan wrote:
>Debbie Garside scripsit:

>> With a minimum of 6 people saying they would at least like to revisit the
>> extlang issue
>
>Not yet six.
>
>> how many within the teleconferences were against the
>> inclusion of extlang?
>
>It's not about how many, it's about how firmly.

The IETF is not about how firmly, but about sound technical argumentation.

Regards,    Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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Subject: [Ltru] Fwd: 72nd IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling - REMINDER
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Dear LTRU WG members,

If you have any opinion on holding an LTRU WG meeting in Dublin
(or not holding such a meeting), please tell the chairs.

Regards,    Martin.


>From: IETF Agenda <agenda@ietf.org>
>To: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>
>Subject: 72nd IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling - REMINDER 
>Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:13:33 -0700 (PDT)

>72nd IETF $B".(B Dublin, Ireland
>Meeting Dates: July 27 $B".(B August 1, 2008
>Host: Alcatel-Lucent
>
>
>We are accepting scheduling requests for all Working Groups and BOFs.  The
>milestones and deadlines for scheduling-related activities are as follows:
>
>
>May 26, Monday - Cutoff date for requests to schedule Working Group
>meetings and for preliminary BOF proposals to ADs at 17:00 PDT (24:00
>UTC/GMT).
>June 9, Monday - Cutoff date for requests to Area Directors to schedule
>BOFs at 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT).
>June 16, Monday - Cutoff date for Area Directors to approve BOF requests
>at 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT).
>June 20, Friday - Preliminary agenda published for comment.
>July 2, Wednesday - Cutoff date for requests to reschedule Working Group
>and BOF meetings 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT)
>July 7, Monday - Final agenda to be published.
>July 16, Wednesday - Draft Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PDT (24:00
>UTC/GMT).
>July 21, Monday - Revised Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PDT (24:00
>UTC/GMT).
>
>Submitting Requests for Working Group and BOF Sessions
>
>Please submit requests to schedule your Working Group sessions using the
>"IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting all
>of the information that the Secretariat requires to schedule your
>sessions.
>
>The URL for the tool is:
>
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi
>
>Instructions for using the tool are available at:
>
>http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html
>
>Please send requests to schedule your BOF sessions to agenda@ietf.org. 
>Please include the acronym of your BOF in the subject line of the message,
>and include all of the information specified in item (4) of "Requesting
>Meeting Sessions at IETF Meetings" in the body.  (This document is
>included below.)
>
>Submitting Session Agendas
>
>For the convenience of meeting attendees, we ask that you submit the
>agendas for your Working Group sessions as early as possible.  Draft
>Working Group agendas are due Wednesday, July 16 by 17:00 PDT (24:00
>UTC/GMT).  Revised Working Group agendas are due no later than Monday,
>July 23 at 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT).  The proposed agenda for a BOF
>session should be submitted along with your request for a session.  Please
>be sure to copy your Area Director on that message.
>
>Please submit the agendas for your Working Group sessions using the "IETF
>Meeting Materials Management Tool," a Web-based tool for making your
>meeting agenda, minutes, and presentation slides available to the
>community before, during, and after an IETF meeting.  If you are a BOF
>chair, then you may use the tool to submit a revised agenda as well as
>other materials for your BOF once the BOF has been approved.
>
>The URL for the tool is:
>
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi
>
>Additional information about this tool is available at:
>
>http://www.ietf.org/instructions/meeting_materials_tool.html
>
>Agendas submitted via the tool will be available to the public on the
>"IETF Meeting Materials" Web page as soon as they are submitted.
>
>The URL for the "IETF 72 Meeting Materials" Web page is:
>
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=72
>
>If you are a Working Group chair, then you already have accounts on the
>"IETF Meeting Session Request Tool" and the "IETF Meeting Materials
>Management Tool."  The same User ID and password will work for both tools.
>  If you are a BOF chair who is not also a Working Group chair, then you
>will be given an account on the "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool"
>when your BOF has been approved.  If you require assistance in using
>either tool, or wish to report a bug, then please send a message to:
>ietf-action@ietf.org.
>===============================================================
>For your convenience, comprehensive information on requesting meeting
>sessions at IETF 72 is presented below:
>
>1. Requests to schedule Working Group sessions should be submitted using
>the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting
>all of the information required by the Secretariat to schedule your
>sessions.  The URL for the tool is:
>
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi
>
>Instructions for using the tool are available at:
>
>http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html
>
>If you require an account on this tool, or assistance in using it, then
>please send a message to ietf-action@ietf.org.  If you are unable to use
>the tool, then you may send your request via e-mail to agenda@ietf.org,
>with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s).
>
>Requests to schedule BOF sessions must be sent to agenda@ietf.org with a
>copy to the appropriate Area Director(s).
>
>When submitting a Working Group or BOF session request by e-mail, please
>include the Working Group or BOF acronym in the Subject line.
>
>2. BOFs will NOT be scheduled unless the Area Director(s) approved
>request is accompanied by a BOF'S FULL NAME AND ACRONYM, AREA, CHAIR(S)
>NAME(S) (given together with e-mail address(es)), AN AGENDA AND FULL
>DESCRIPTION, and the information requested in (4) below. (Please read the
>BOF Procedure at: http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1bof-procedures.txt before
>requesting a session for a BOF.)
>
>3. A Working Group may request either one or two sessions.  If your
>Working Group requires more than two sessions, then your request must be
>approved by an Area Director.  Additional sessions will be assigned, based
>on availability, after Wednesday, July 2 at 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT), the
>cut-off date for requests to reschedule a session.
>
>4. You MUST provide the following information before a Working Group or
>BOF session will be scheduled:
>
>    a. Working Group or BOF full name with acronym in brackets: 
>
>    b. AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears:
>
>    c. CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible:
>
>    d. Expected Attendance (figures from the 71st IETF meeting are
>included at the end of this message):
>
>    e. Special requests:
>
>    f. Number of sessions:
>
>    g. Length of session: 
>       - 1 hour 
>       - 2 hours 
>       - 2 1/2 hours
>
>For more information on scheduling Working Group and BOF sessions, please
>refer to RFC 2418 (BCP 25), "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures"
>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2418.txt).
>===============================================================
>For your convenience please find here a list of the IETF Area Directors
>with their e-mail addresses:
>
>IETF Chair 
>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
>
>Applications Area (app) 
>Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
>Chris Newman <chris.newman@sun.com>
>
>Internet Area (int) 
>Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
>Mark Townsley <townsley@cisco.com>
>
>Operations & Management Area (ops) 
>Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
>Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>
>
>Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Area (rai)
>Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
>Jon Peterson <jon.peterson@neustar.biz>
>
>Routing Area (rtg) 
>Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
>David Ward <dward@cisco.com>
>
>Security Area (sec) 
>Pasi Eronen <pasi.eronen@nokia.com>
>Tim Polk <tim.polk@nist.gov>
>
>Transport Area (tsv) 
>Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com>
>Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
>===========================================================
>71st IETF Meeting Attendance Number
>
>16ng           36
>6lowpan                33
>6man           85
>ancp           25
>apparea (AG)   87
>asrg           38
>autoconf               71
>avt            70
>avt (2nd session)      28
>behave         71
>bliss          115
>bmwg           28
>calsify                21
>canmod (BoF)   58
>capwap         27
>ccamp          91
>ccamp (2nd session)    87
>csi            29
>dccp           22
>dhc            97
>dime           38
>dkim           46
>dna            32
>dnsext         95
>dnsop          103
>dtnrg (RG)     46
>eai            49
>ecrit          85
>emu            36
>enum           84
>esds (BoF)     64
>fecframe       21
>geopriv                76
>grow           53
>hiprg (RG)     48
>hokey          39
>iccrg (RG)     30
>idn (BoF)      93
>idr            69
>intarea (AG)   141
>ipfix          29
>ippm           41
>isis           36
>keyprov                24
>kitten         11
>kmart (BoF)    102
>krb-wg         27
>l2vpn          88
>l3vpn          78
>lemonade       24
>lemonade 2nd sess      20
>ltans          13
>manet          68
>mboned         47
>mediactrl      64
>mext           85
>mext $B".(B 2nd sess       62
>mip4           26
>mmusic         140
>mpls           121
>msec           22
>nea (BOF)      33
>netconf                50
>netlmm         73
>nfsv4          20
>nmrg (RG)      18
>nsis           27
>ntp            25
>opsarea (AG)   42
>opsawg         41
>ospf           40
>p2psip         110
>pana           48
>pce            68
>pcn            31
>pcn $B".(B 2nd session     34
>peppermint (Bof)       115
>pim            33
>pkix           60
>pmol           25
>pufi (BOF)     38
>pwe3           110
>radext         27
>rtgarea (AG)   112+
>rmt            15
>roll           59
>rrg (RG)               106
>rrg $B".(B 2nd session     76
>rucus (BoF)    127
>saag (AG)      87
>samrg (RG)     40
>sasl           17
>shim6          66
>sidr           63
>sieve          21
>simple         65
>sip            199
>sipping                22
>smime          24
>softwire               50
>speermint      102
>tcpm           38
>tictoc         59
>tls            61
>trill          54
>tsvarea (AG)   132
>tsvwg          90
>v6ops          108
>v6ops $B".(B 2nd session   88
>vcarddav       24
>xcon           44


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Mon May 12 21:40:29 2008
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	Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:40:22 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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FWIW: If we choose extlang, I think 3 is interesting to consider.  Note that 3 is also very similar to the no-extlang proposal, if you assume applications want to know about the grandfathered tags.  A few points:
- I think whether its restored or not, that we need to be clear that zh means "any kind of chinese".
- If it extlang is restored, I think we should make it clear which languages need the extlang behavior, eg: Chinese.

To me the value of extlang would be to allow additional information in existing protocols that don't allow "lists" of language tags, and it seems kind of like a specialized list to me.  In cases where lists are acceptable, I think that a non-extlang form would be acceptable.  (Because you can specify zh;cmn or whatever).

- Shawn

________________________________________
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 5:34 PM
To: Phillips, Addison
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang

Addison,

Tough call, really.

I think my preference is #1 because nothing needs to be deprecated, the
language hierarchies are represented for all macrolanguages, tag semantics
don't change, and the legacy connection to "zh" is preserved. I would also
be satisfied with #2 with the suggestion to deprecate "zh".

I *might* not be opposed to #3, but fear it might be as confusing as what
we've got now. I'm open to hearing suggestions on #3 with better spelled
out usage rules.

Regards,

Karen Broome





"Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
05/12/2008 04:11 PM

To
"Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>, Doug Ewell
<doug@ewellic.org>
cc
LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject
Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang






> I'm someone who needs these
> distinctions so I guess I find the continued existence of the "zh" tag
> to be more of a problem than the introduction of the more specific
tagging
> I need.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around a suitable resolution that addresses
the various needs expressed on this list. I tend to agree that you need
specific tagging for stuff like written Cantonese and spoken Mandarin,
etc. Historical use of vague tags, ascribing meaning not actually in the
subtags, is not helpful.

How do you think this would best be solved? If I understand your previous
messages, you'd prefer to see:

- Restore 'extlang'
- Require the extlang subtag to be used (via the SHOULD keyword??)
- Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't
specifically one sort or another: specificity is desirable.

Or would you prefer:

- Not restore 'extlang'
- Possibly deprecate 'zh' (with no preferred-value)
- Clarify that users SHOULD use the specific flavor of Chinese, with
additional subtags as appropriate
- Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't
specifically one sort or another

Or, finally:

- Restore 'extlang'
- Allow the encompassed languages to be both extlangs and primary subtags
- Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't
specifically one sort or another: specificity is desirable.
- Provide guidelines for choosing between 'zh-???" and "???" forms.

Best Regards,

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 2:58 PM
> To: Doug Ewell
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
>
> Doug wrote:
>
> > In the flood of messages on this topic, I can't find the statement in
> > the archives that 'cmn' should be deprecated.  I hope to heaven that
> is
> > a misquote.
>
> (For the record, this was the message I was referring to...)
>
> Mark Davis wrote:
>
> Not so sure that we will get accuracy; frankly I think the introduction
> of
> cmn, arb, etc. were well intentioned, but in retrospect a mistake.
> There
> was no reason not to treat zh, ar, etc just like we treated de. There
> is
> no substantive difference between zh:yue and de:gsw.
>
> Given the existence and long usage of zh in IT, the introduction of cmn
> (etc) will inevitably just end up with mistagged data, mishandled
> lookups,
> and unsatisfied users, unless one follows the strategy that unless you
> have a strong reason not to, treat cmn as a synonym for zh. (In fact,
> it
> is simplest to remap cmn-* to zh-* on input.)
>
> [Our best course of action for compatibility and interoperability would
> be
> to deprecate cmn, arb, and the few others in that section, but I doubt
> that we could get consensus on that, so I'd never brought it up.]
>
> Karen writes:
>
> Above is the text I was referencing. Though Mark hasn't suggested that
> we
> actually do this, the fact that he thinks this would be helpful tells
> me
> that we're looking at this very differently. I'm someone who needs
> these
> distinctions so I guess I find the continued existence of the "zh" tag
> to
> be more of a problem than the introduction of the more specific tagging
> I
> need.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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>
> I have no reason to think this will not happen again during 2008 and
> beyond.

I think we can reasonably postulate that ISO 639-3, maintained by a group considered more "splitter" than "lumper" when it comes to languages, will find some opportunity at some time in the future to split one of the language codes. They will be more likely to create new Macrolangauges if it can be demonstrated that this is not disruptive. Our goal should be to make it as undisruptive as possible (but not more so).

>
> RFC 4646bis will follow all of these ISO 639-3 changes; unlike extlangs,
> the Macrolanguage field is meant to correlate 1-to-1 with ISO 639-3.
>

It is possible for extlang to correlate 1:1 with 639-3. In previous edits, for reasons of compatibility, we chose not to make it so. There is some struggle with squaring the rules for what is and what is not a potential extlang that we've haven't seen on list of late simply because we haven't discussed extlangs as other than theoretical constructs. I would point out that, for all the discussion of Serbo-Croatian and Norwegian on this list, there was historically no proposal to actually make extlangs for these languages because all of the encompassed languages have ISO 639-1 codes.

Addison
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On 13/05/2008, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:

> To me the value of extlang would be to allow additional information in existing protocols that don't allow "lists" of language tags, and it seems kind of like a specialized list to me.  In cases where lists are acceptable, I think that a non-extlang form would be acceptable.  (Because you can specify zh;cmn or whatever).
>

it should be extlangs or no extlangs, anything else woud be too
confusing, too complex


-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
lang.support@gmail.com
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I think list forms are more dangerous than they look. What alarms Karen--it alarms me too--is that there is confusion about how to tag things. The more choices people have, the more likely that they will make the "wrong" choice or that our software must become much more complex to handle the interplay between various subtag forms. Not to be a wag, but lists give people the chance to be wrong twice.

Of course there is nothing that can completely prevent people from making illegal tags ("chinese") or making ludicrous tagging choices ('tw' when you mean Taiwan and not Twi). But given reasonable people reasonably informed about what they are doing, the number and range of tag choices that achieve the same result should be limited. It is up to you and your applications needs to decide whether "de" or "de-Latn-AT-1984" is the most appropriate tag for your content. But you shouldn't have to chose between three very different forms to say exactly the same thing ("zh"/"cmn"/"zh-cmn", you can s/cmn/yue or any other encompassed language there)--and then face the peril of additional subtags.

I want to add, on the slight tangent, that I don't worry so much about the grandfathered forms. There is a list of these; it is stable; it will have a very direct mapping to the "right" replacement choice; and most of the items on the list are already stone dead. If some of them are redundant rather than deprecated, that's okay with me (it was the idea in the first place). But I wouldn't worry over-much about making some more deprecated 3066 registrations if that is the right choice. "i-enochian" has plenty of friends. For that matter, we have plenty of "bad" Chinese tags:

 i-hak => zh-hakka => (something else when we're done, regardless of extlang or no)

Best Regards,

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:40 PM
> To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; Phillips, Addison
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
>
> FWIW: If we choose extlang, I think 3 is interesting to consider.  Note
> that 3 is also very similar to the no-extlang proposal, if you assume
> applications want to know about the grandfathered tags.  A few points:
> - I think whether its restored or not, that we need to be clear that zh
> means "any kind of chinese".
> - If it extlang is restored, I think we should make it clear which
> languages need the extlang behavior, eg: Chinese.
>
> To me the value of extlang would be to allow additional information in
> existing protocols that don't allow "lists" of language tags, and it
> seems kind of like a specialized list to me.  In cases where lists are
> acceptable, I think that a non-extlang form would be acceptable.
> (Because you can specify zh;cmn or whatever).
>
> - Shawn
>
> ________________________________________
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 5:34 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
>
> Addison,
>
> Tough call, really.
>
> I think my preference is #1 because nothing needs to be deprecated, the
> language hierarchies are represented for all macrolanguages, tag
> semantics
> don't change, and the legacy connection to "zh" is preserved. I would
> also
> be satisfied with #2 with the suggestion to deprecate "zh".
>
> I *might* not be opposed to #3, but fear it might be as confusing as
> what
> we've got now. I'm open to hearing suggestions on #3 with better
> spelled
> out usage rules.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>
>
>
>
>
> "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> Sent by: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> 05/12/2008 04:11 PM
>
> To
> "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>, Doug Ewell
> <doug@ewellic.org>
> cc
> LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
> Subject
> Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm someone who needs these
> > distinctions so I guess I find the continued existence of the "zh"
> tag
> > to be more of a problem than the introduction of the more specific
> tagging
> > I need.
>
> So I'm trying to wrap my head around a suitable resolution that
> addresses
> the various needs expressed on this list. I tend to agree that you need
> specific tagging for stuff like written Cantonese and spoken Mandarin,
> etc. Historical use of vague tags, ascribing meaning not actually in
> the
> subtags, is not helpful.
>
> How do you think this would best be solved? If I understand your
> previous
> messages, you'd prefer to see:
>
> - Restore 'extlang'
> - Require the extlang subtag to be used (via the SHOULD keyword??)
> - Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't
> specifically one sort or another: specificity is desirable.
>
> Or would you prefer:
>
> - Not restore 'extlang'
> - Possibly deprecate 'zh' (with no preferred-value)
> - Clarify that users SHOULD use the specific flavor of Chinese, with
> additional subtags as appropriate
> - Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't
> specifically one sort or another
>
> Or, finally:
>
> - Restore 'extlang'
> - Allow the encompassed languages to be both extlangs and primary
> subtags
> - Clarify that 'zh' means "any kind of Chinese" and thus isn't
> specifically one sort or another: specificity is desirable.
> - Provide guidelines for choosing between 'zh-???" and "???" forms.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 2:58 PM
> > To: Doug Ewell
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
> >
> > Doug wrote:
> >
> > > In the flood of messages on this topic, I can't find the statement
> in
> > > the archives that 'cmn' should be deprecated.  I hope to heaven
> that
> > is
> > > a misquote.
> >
> > (For the record, this was the message I was referring to...)
> >
> > Mark Davis wrote:
> >
> > Not so sure that we will get accuracy; frankly I think the
> introduction
> > of
> > cmn, arb, etc. were well intentioned, but in retrospect a mistake.
> > There
> > was no reason not to treat zh, ar, etc just like we treated de. There
> > is
> > no substantive difference between zh:yue and de:gsw.
> >
> > Given the existence and long usage of zh in IT, the introduction of
> cmn
> > (etc) will inevitably just end up with mistagged data, mishandled
> > lookups,
> > and unsatisfied users, unless one follows the strategy that unless
> you
> > have a strong reason not to, treat cmn as a synonym for zh. (In fact,
> > it
> > is simplest to remap cmn-* to zh-* on input.)
> >
> > [Our best course of action for compatibility and interoperability
> would
> > be
> > to deprecate cmn, arb, and the few others in that section, but I
> doubt
> > that we could get consensus on that, so I'd never brought it up.]
> >
> > Karen writes:
> >
> > Above is the text I was referencing. Though Mark hasn't suggested
> that
> > we
> > actually do this, the fact that he thinks this would be helpful tells
> > me
> > that we're looking at this very differently. I'm someone who needs
> > these
> > distinctions so I guess I find the continued existence of the "zh"
> tag
> > to
> > be more of a problem than the introduction of the more specific
> tagging
> > I
> > need.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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At 00:21 08/05/13, Phillips, Addison wrote:

>"Programming into implementations" information about which extlang subtags 
>can be used as primary language subtags requires a table of items from the 
>registry. Implementations that rely on remove-from-right solely (i.e. 
>"well-formed" implementations, as opposed to "validating" implementations) 
>will not have this information and will get it wrong.

[as a technical contributor, just thinking out loud]

I'm sure I forgot a lot of details, but it looks to me as if
using extlangs is a tiny bit better in this respect. What I
mean is that with something like
   zh-yue-Hant-hk
or so, the simple remove-from-right procedure would give fallbacks of:
   zh-yue-Hant
   zh-yue
   zh

It is my understanding that one of the arguments against exlangs
was that the following fallbacks would be more natular:
   zh-yue-Hant
   zh-Hant  ****
   zh

Having the relevant subtags in the tag might allow something lik
 "remove-from-right+extlang", where we would have fallbacks of:
   zh-yue-Hant
   zh-yue    **
   zh-Hant   **
   zh
or something similar. The relative order between zh-yue and zh-Hant
may need to be defined, or there may not be such a need because
we may be able to assume that for any single document (or other
matching target), we would not have zh-yue and zh-Hant at the
same time.

This wouldn't work with existing implementations, but it might
work with newer implementations. On the other hand, it would
NOT create a dependency on checking the registry to see that
zh is a fallback (or whatever we call it) for yue.

Again, for the moment, just thinking out loud.

Regards,    Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Mon May 12 22:28:08 2008
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Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:27:01 +0900
To: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Hello Debbie,

At 19:19 08/05/12, Debbie Garside wrote:
>For me, record-jar is a dogs breakfast.
>
>If we really want Joe Public to start tagging data correctly we need to
>facilitate the provision of data in an XML format that can be imported into
>proprietary software.  Frank and I did some work on this many moons ago and
>we were about 99% of the way there - this needs to be completed and made
>publicly available.  I'm not suggesting that this should form part of the
>RFC but a tool should be created and (if possible) referenced within the
>RFC.  (perhaps via Stephane's site)

As a co-chair, I'm asking you to try to use as little WG mailing
list bandwidth for this as possible, and to always clearly tag
things in the subject line (as done above).


>And, whilst I am busy sticking spanners in the works, I would like to bring
>up the idea (again) of being able to reference the RFC within the tag (if
>desired).  This is extremely important for archiving purposes.

 From a technical viewpoint, this seems to be an extremely good fit for
an extension.

However, as a co-chair, I know that individual extensions are not the
job of this WG. If you want, please go ahead and write an individual
Internet-Draft. But again, don't bother this list more than necessary,
this is clearly outside the scope  of the current WG.

Regards,     Martin.



#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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At 13:40 08/05/13, Shawn Steele wrote:

>In cases where lists are 
>acceptable, I think that a non-extlang form would be acceptable.  (Because 
>you can specify zh;cmn or whatever).

I'm not exactly sure about this. In many cases, lists may have
some explicit or implied semantics. As an example, I could immagine
that there is some assumption that the number of language tags
in a list is equal to the number of speech soundtracks on a DVD.

Regards,    Martin.



#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 12:01:42PM -0700,
 Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote 
 a message of 134 lines which said:

> If we need to indicate that a language is a macrolanguage in the
> registry, we should use a separate field. Presumably it would be
> something like:
> 
> Subtag: zh
> Type: language
> Encompasses: cmn, yue, wuu, ... etc.

Note that it was already proposed (and rejected) one year ago.

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg08066.html
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: 72nd IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling - REMINDER
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Opinion in favour of organizing an LTRU WG meeting here in Dublin (and
offering to help).
mg

Scri'obh Martin Duerst:
> Dear LTRU WG members,
>
> If you have any opinion on holding an LTRU WG meeting in Dublin
> (or not holding such a meeting), please tell the chairs.
>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
>   
>> From: IETF Agenda <agenda@ietf.org>
>> To: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>
>> Subject: 72nd IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling - REMINDER 
>> Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:13:33 -0700 (PDT)
>>     
>> 72nd IETF $B".(B Dublin, Ireland
>> Meeting Dates: July 27 $B".(B August 1, 2008
>> Host: Alcatel-Lucent
>>
>>
>> We are accepting scheduling requests for all Working Groups and BOFs.  The
>> milestones and deadlines for scheduling-related activities are as follows:
>> ...
>>     
> #-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>   


-- 


Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
27 Pa'irc an Fhe'ithlinn, Baile an
Bho'thair, Co. A'tha Cliath, E'ire.
* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *

--------------040008050609040001090807
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<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-2022-JP"
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<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Opinion in favour of organizing an LTRU WG meeting here in Dublin (and
offering to help).<br>
mg<br>
<br>
Scr&iacute;obh Martin Duerst:
<blockquote cite="mid:6.0.0.20.2.20080513104641.0aed3300@localhost"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Dear LTRU WG members,

If you have any opinion on holding an LTRU WG meeting in Dublin
(or not holding such a meeting), please tell the chairs.

Regards,    Martin.

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">From: IETF Agenda <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:agenda@ietf.org">&lt;agenda@ietf.org&gt;</a>
To: Working Group Chairs <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wgchairs@ietf.org">&lt;wgchairs@ietf.org&gt;</a>
Subject: 72nd IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling - REMINDER 
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:13:33 -0700 (PDT)
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">72nd IETF $B".(B Dublin, Ireland
Meeting Dates: July 27 $B".(B August 1, 2008
Host: Alcatel-Lucent


We are accepting scheduling requests for all Working Groups and BOFs.  The
milestones and deadlines for scheduling-related activities are as follows:
...
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap="">
#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp">http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp">mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>     

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  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<title></title>
<font color="#993399"><tt><font size="-1"><br>
<br>
Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)<br>
27 P&aacute;irc an Fh&eacute;ithlinn, Baile an<br>
Bh&oacute;thair, Co. &Aacute;tha Cliath, &Eacute;ire.<br>
* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mgunn@egt.ie">mgunn@egt.ie</a> * <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eamonn@egt.ie">eamonn@egt.ie</a> *</font></tt></font>
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On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 09:12:18PM -0600,
 Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> wrote 
 a message of 8 lines which said:

> You can do that now, but that's a higher-level protocol.  Just as
> one example, you could embed your language tag in an RFC 4151 tag:

Another nice example is RFC 5141 :

     urn:iso:std:iso:9999:-1:ed-1:en,fr
      refers to the 1st edition of ISO 9999-1, in English/French
      (bilingual document)
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On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:48:31AM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote 
 a message of 59 lines which said:

> I feel this whole extlang/macrolanguage thing has got out of hand
> and it is all looking pretty messy.

What is messy? The work of LRTU in 4646bis? The ISO 639-3 standard? Or
simply the situation in human languages?

As an engineer, I feel that the world of languages is too complicated
:-) and that no modeling will be perfect. We should stop chasing the
perfect solution and accepting the one we have (in
draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-13).
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Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:22:43 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 07:39:59PM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote =

 a message of 118 lines which said:

> I don't think anyone would know how to tag macrolanguages or their
> encompassed entities - we would get a mish mash of tagging

Even with RFC 4646, people make mistakes. Many (most?) tags visible on
the public Web (where no prior checking of language tags occur) are
broken. May be language tagging is already too complicated.

But it is na=EFve to expect that we can find a solution which will avoid
user mistakes. Now that we've dropped extlangs, they appear as the
solution to everything, but that's simply the "grass is greener"
effect. Extlangs would be as complicated for users.

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 13 08:06:01 2008
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Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:57:05 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
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On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:19:51AM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote 
 a message of 279 lines which said:

> Frank and I did some work on this many moons ago and we were about
> 99% of the way there - this needs to be completed and made publicly
> available.

As noted by Doug, this is already publicly available:

http://www.langtag.net/registries.html

Advices on the best process to debug, improve, extend, etc, this work
are welcome. The LTRU co-chairs will probably request that this is
discussed off-list.

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 13 09:15:22 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] solving the chinese thing... some text (part 1)
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On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 12:58:59PM -0700,
 Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote 
 a message of 33 lines which said:

> For the Chinese languages in particular, this practice of conflating
> the encompassed langauge with its macrolanguage is RECOMMENDED.</t>

I find this text questionable, because it seems to imply there is a
Chinese-specific issue. I'm not sure of it and I'm not convinced that
Arabic is much different in that respect.

I suggest instead:

<t> ... this practice of conflating the encompassed langauge with its
macrolanguage is RECOMMENDED or not, depending on various informations
which are not in the registry (existence of a dominant form of the
language, amount of legacy tagging, etc). These informations must be
collected and analyzed by the programmer before deciding wether or not
the application will conflate the encompassed language with its
macrolanguage.</t>


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 09:33:26AM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote 
 a message of 154 lines which said:

> I have to say that there are some strong characters in this forum
> and if people are feeling intimidated and bullied this will put
> other people off participating.

"Bullied" may be a word too strong. And, by definition, people who
complain, like Karen and you, are not silenced by the bullies :-)

The problem, for a group which is supposed to work on language tags
for the whole world, is that participation seems to be almost only
from people in Europe/USA. But that's a complicated topic, for which I
offer no solution today (RFC 3774, 2.6.6).

> Also, I think that for such an important issue to be decided during
> conference calls means that there is no discussion history to fall
> back on and this doesn't help those of us who missed the conference
> calls.

I was not able to participate to any teleconference (for various
reasons, one of them being that I'm quite bad with spoken english, see
again RFC 3774, 2.6.6). But the whole discussion was also on the
mailing list and I feel I have a complete picture from the list.

True, the mailing list is difficult to follow and there is no
synthesis or summary but this is a general IETF problem (apparently
not discussed in RFC 3774), not specific to LTRU. Asking on the
mailing list for a summary generally provides good results, as you
have seen last week.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 13 09:35:58 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Record-Jar Format (was RE: I'm really confused by
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I have successfully imported the registry into MS Access using both XML
files and they work very well.  Couple of slight errors:

1.  Variant Table: Record 'baku1926': The comment field is more than 255
characters and thus is truncated.  This could be overcome by setting the
field type to memo but on import XML is automatically setting the filed type
to Text. Just a minor glitch.

2.   In LSR-2.xml Most (not all) of the fields seem to have a preceding
space for some reason which will make it difficult to create search
routines.

I won't bother the list with further discussion on this.  If you would like
me to test any further updates let me know.

best regards

Debbie







> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]
> Sent: 13 May 2008 13:57
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: Record-Jar Format (was RE: I'm really confused
> by chinese in 3066bis)
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:19:51AM +0100,  Debbie Garside
> <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote  a message of 279 lines which said:
>
> > Frank and I did some work on this many moons ago and we
> were about 99%
> > of the way there - this needs to be completed and made publicly
> > available.
>
> As noted by Doug, this is already publicly available:
>
> http://www.langtag.net/registries.html
>
> Advices on the best process to debug, improve, extend, etc,
> this work are welcome. The LTRU co-chairs will probably
> request that this is discussed off-list.
>
>
>
>
>




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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Stephane Bortzmeyer'" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>,
	"'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>
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Subject: [Ltru] OT Not Really Referencing the RFC within the tag was( RE:
	Record-Jar Format (was RE: I'm really confused bychinese in 3066bis)
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Seems more than a little convoluted.  I just want to be able to write:

Language[RFC4646]=zh-cmn :-)

But we better take this off-list if you wish to discuss it further or Martin
will have my internals for garters !

Debbie



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer
> Sent: 13 May 2008 13:07
> To: Doug Ewell
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Record-Jar Format (was RE: I'm really
> confused bychinese in 3066bis)
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 09:12:18PM -0600,  Doug Ewell
> <doug@ewellic.org> wrote  a message of 8 lines which said:
>
> > You can do that now, but that's a higher-level protocol.
> Just as one
> > example, you could embed your language tag in an RFC 4151 tag:
>
> Another nice example is RFC 5141 :
>
>      urn:iso:std:iso:9999:-1:ed-1:en,fr
>       refers to the 1st edition of ISO 9999-1, in English/French
>       (bilingual document)
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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To: "'Martin Duerst'" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Hi Martin

Responses inline...

> As a co-chair, I'm asking you to try to use as little WG
> mailing list bandwidth for this as possible, and to always
> clearly tag things in the subject line (as done above).

I think the discussion on this is over.


> >And, whilst I am busy sticking spanners in the works, I
> would like to
> >bring up the idea (again) of being able to reference the RFC
> within the
> >tag (if desired).  This is extremely important for archiving
> purposes.
>
>  From a technical viewpoint, this seems to be an extremely
> good fit for an extension.
>
> However, as a co-chair, I know that individual extensions are
> not the job of this WG. If you want, please go ahead and
> write an individual Internet-Draft. But again, don't bother
> this list more than necessary, this is clearly outside the
> scope  of the current WG.

I wouldn't mind doing this but would not have the first clue on where to
start with an RFC.  I also think it would need a few people to support the
idea to make it worthwhile so I guess that ends this thread also.

Best regards

Debbie
>
> Regards,     Martin.
>
>
>
> #-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp
> mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
>
>
>
>
>




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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 13 10:12:17 2008
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Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:09:36 -0400
To: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Record-Jar Format (was RE: I'm really confused by
	chinese in 3066bis)
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Debbie Garside scripsit:
> For me, record-jar is a dogs breakfast.

It's formally defined and has certain technical advantages.

> And, whilst I am busy sticking spanners in the works, I would like to bring
> up the idea (again) of being able to reference the RFC within the tag (if
> desired).  This is extremely important for archiving purposes.

The official denotation of a tag (as opposed to any unofficial
connotations it may have acquired over time) is independent of which
RFC was in force at the time it was defined.

-- 
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan
Linguistics is arguably the most hotly contested property in the academic
realm. It is soaked with the blood of poets, theologians, philosophers,
philologists, psychologists, biologists and neurologists, along with
whatever blood can be got out of grammarians. - Russ Rymer
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 13 13:02:46 2008
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Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:42:52 +0200
From: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer' <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20080513194252.GA18267@sources.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Record-Jar Format (was RE: I'm really confused by
	chinese in 3066bis)
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On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 05:34:26PM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote 
 a message of 55 lines which said:

> 1.  Variant Table: Record 'baku1926': The comment field is more than
> 255 characters and thus is truncated.

Here, MS-Access is too restrictive. RFC 4646 is not very talkative
about registry field sizes (unlike the issue of language tag size,
which is discussed at length). But the RFC says in 3.1:

   The content of this field [Comments] is not
   restricted, except by the need to register the information, the
   suitability of the request, and by reasonable practical size
   limitations.

255 seems quite low. Anyway, none of the two proposed XML schemas set
a limit on the size of fields (it would not be possible in DTD,
anyway).

> 2.   In LSR-2.xml Most (not all) of the fields seem to have a preceding
> space for some reason which will make it difficult to create search
> routines.

IMHO, a bug in the awk script. The way I read RFC 4646 3.1:

   record     = 1*( field-name *SP ":" *SP field-body CRLF )

Leading spaces at the beginning of a field body (*SP) should not be
significant. Frank?
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From: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer' <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] OT Not Really Referencing the RFC within the tag was(
	RE: Record-Jar Format (was RE: I'm really confused bychinese
	in 3066bis)
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On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 05:40:34PM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote 
 a message of 42 lines which said:

> Language[RFC4646]=zh-cmn :-)

As already mentioned here, the stability of BCP 47 language tags make
this sort of metadata pretty useless. zh-cmn is and will always be
valid.

But, anyway, if you want to do it, IMHO, it should be done outside of
the language tags themselves. In XML, something like:

<article>
<versionedlanguagetag>
<tag>zh-cmn</tag>
<rfc>4646</rfc>
</versionedlanguagetag>
...

IMHO, it adds complication to a field, language tagging, which is
already too difficult for many people.
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On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 05:44:17PM +0100,
 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote 
 a message of 55 lines which said:

> I wouldn't mind doing this but would not have the first clue on
> where to start with an RFC.

This is not the biggest problem. If you need help, that's easy, there
are several tools (and people) to help the RFC author. The important
work is to actually write. 


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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: "'Stephane Bortzmeyer'" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, Debbie Garside
	<debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Record-Jar Format (was RE: I'm really confused by
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> IMHO, a bug in the awk script. The way I read RFC 4646 3.1:
>
>    record     = 1*( field-name *SP ":" *SP field-body CRLF )
>
> Leading spaces at the beginning of a field body (*SP) should not be
> significant. Frank?

Leading whitespace is not significant (that is, it's not part of the value).

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> 'Stephane Bortzmeyer'
> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:43 PM
> To: Debbie Garside
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Record-Jar Format (was RE: I'm really confused by
> chinese in 3066bis)
>
> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 05:34:26PM +0100,
>  Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote
>  a message of 55 lines which said:
>
> > 1.  Variant Table: Record 'baku1926': The comment field is more than
> > 255 characters and thus is truncated.
>
> Here, MS-Access is too restrictive. RFC 4646 is not very talkative
> about registry field sizes (unlike the issue of language tag size,
> which is discussed at length). But the RFC says in 3.1:
>
>    The content of this field [Comments] is not
>    restricted, except by the need to register the information, the
>    suitability of the request, and by reasonable practical size
>    limitations.
>
> 255 seems quite low. Anyway, none of the two proposed XML schemas set
> a limit on the size of fields (it would not be possible in DTD,
> anyway).
>
> > 2.   In LSR-2.xml Most (not all) of the fields seem to have a
> preceding
> > space for some reason which will make it difficult to create search
> > routines.
>
> IMHO, a bug in the awk script. The way I read RFC 4646 3.1:
>
>    record     = 1*( field-name *SP ":" *SP field-body CRLF )
>
> Leading spaces at the beginning of a field body (*SP) should not be
> significant. Frank?
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May 14 16:46:00 2008
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Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] I'm really confused by chinese in 3066bis
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I can see that you think so, if you are only focusing on the majority 
language.

Can you offer something clearer and better for non-majority languages 
within a macrolangauge group?


Leif Halvard Silli


Debbie Garside 2008-05-12 09.45:
> I agree with Peter.  It seems a little more complex than is actually
> necessary.
>
> Best
>
> debbie
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Peter Constable
>   
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Leif Halvard Silli
> >
> >
> > > Questions to you: Do you agree that the above is a useful way of
> > > deciding fallback based on macrolangauge information?
> >
> > Sorry, but no.
>   


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Doug Ewell 2008-05-14 06.02:
> "Phillips, Addison" <addison at amazon dot com> wrote:
>
> > So... to bring this full circle. Assuming that you'd be willing to 
> > compromise with the no-extlangistas by going with option #2, would the 
> > following text (replacing the text about macrolanguages in draft-13) 
> > work for you? What would you change?
>
> Speaking not for Karen, but as an extlangista at heart, I think 
> Addison's text is about the best we're going to get.  It is certainly 
> much better than talking about deprecating either 'zh' or 'cmn'.
>   

Perhaps you could enlighten us about where you saw any fundamental 
difference from before?
-- 
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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>
> However, I think your proposed new text differs a bit from the above.
> It
> differs even more for from option #1 (restoring extlang), where you
> said
> that "specificity is desirable." See concrete comments below.

It really should be different from option #1, which is mutually exclusive from option #2

>
>
> Phillips, Addison 2008-05-13 21.25:
> ...
> > <t>It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to tag an
> encompassed language using the subtag for its macrolanguage.  However,
> the Macrolanguage concept doesn't define what the relationship  between
> the encompassed language and its macrolanguage is, nor does it define
> how languages encompassed by the same macrolanguage are related to each
> other.</t>
> >
>
> To say that "It is always permitted, and sometimes useful" sounds quite
> different from "specificity is desirable". I would have expexted the
> text to express opposite, namely that "it is always permitted and
> sometimes useful to use the Macrolanguage tag for any of the
> encompassed
> languages".

Ur, what you propose *is* what the text means. I go on to emphasize that specificity is desirable. I don't at all see how you arrive at the opposite conclusion, unless you are confusing the encompassed languages (nn and nb are encompassed) with the macrolanguage (no is a macrolanguage).

I would respond point-by-point to the rest of your email, but most of your comments seem like a misreading of what the text I proposed says. It says quite clearly that the encompassed language is RECOMMENDED over the macrolanguage subtag... that is, the macrolanguage subtag is to be avoided. There is an extensive example using Chinese that you omit from your commentary.

Please note: this editor, at least, finds it most useful if you propose specific text to right the wrongs you suppose appear in the text. It is easier to discuss specific proposals--not to mention to incorporate them--if you do. I think you'll find that, if you re-read my proposal carefully, it says everything that my option #2 proposed to Karen. I would stipulate that the wording is slightly weaker than my proposal for Karen (it doesn't say 'zh' == deprecated, but it frowns extremely hard at 'zh', along with most of its Macrolanguage brethren).

Finally, you mention language negotiation, I think wrongly. It is not a topic for this document, generally. We have a document about it. It is called RFC 4647 and it is part of BCP 47.

Addison

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Stephane Bortzmeyer 2008-05-13 14.52:
> The problem, for a group which is supposed to work on language tags
> for the whole world, is that participation seems to be almost only
> from people in Europe/USA. But that's a complicated topic, for which I
> offer no solution today (RFC 3774, 2.6.6).
>   

But there are many issues that can be solved by people from our spheres 
- we cover many languages and many language situations that are common 
throughout the world, I believe. We also have a big influx of speakers 
from "the rest of the World". Europe/USA does not mean "white and English".

The real issue problem is not the one you describe, therefore, but 
rather that it seems as if dominant language users want to solve the 
problems of other dominant language users, as well.

Are there anyone else except me with an "encomassed language, which is 
not the dominant language either" as mothertongue on this list?

Since we have at least one person from Finland on this list: I recently 
heard a speech about the situation for the biggest minority language in 
Finland, Swedish. The speaker said that the Finnnish government 
described themselves as world masters in equality. Except that was far 
from how the Swedish speakers expeirenced it.

The problem is: The more you know the situation, the more you feel that 
you can ignore the arguements, because then you see that it is politics. 
And when it comes to politics, you yourself is a partaker.

In this list, I sense a fear from actually deciding *anything* that 
could make majority language users suffers the slightest. This can be 
examplified by Addision's draft text where he says that Macrolanguge tag 
*should* be used for the dominant language.

There seems to be a fundamental lack of will to be spesiific, except 
when it comes to the dominant language. Dominance wins over principles.

With a such aproach, thre is no need to get input from other majority 
language users from other spheres, because it will just end up with the 
same proposals.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-15 03.15:
> > Phillips, Addison 2008-05-13 21.25:
> > ...
> > > <t>It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to tag an
> > encompassed language using the subtag for its macrolanguage.  However,
> > the Macrolanguage concept doesn't define what the relationship  between
> > the encompassed language and its macrolanguage is, nor does it define
> > how languages encompassed by the same macrolanguage are related to each
> > other.</t>
> > >
> >
> > To say that "It is always permitted, and sometimes useful" sounds quite
> > different from "specificity is desirable". I would have expexted the
> > text to express opposite, namely that "it is always permitted and
> > sometimes useful to use the Macrolanguage tag for any of the
> > encompassed
> > languages".
>
> Ur, what you propose *is* what the text means. I go on to emphasize that specificity is desirable. I don't at all see how you arrive at the opposite conclusion, unless you are confusing the encompassed languages (nn and nb are encompassed) with the macrolanguage (no is a macrolanguage).
>   
Ok, I'm sorry. I guess I infact made the exact error you describe - the 
wording 'subtag of its Macrolanguage' managed to confuse my non-English 
head.

To avoid misundersandings I'd like to propose this change, then, to link 
the 'subtag' word more strongly to the 'Macrolanguage' term, and to 
emphasise that the statement is true for "any encompassed language":

    <t>For any encompassed language, it is always permitted and sometimes useful, to use the Macrolanguage subtag in place of the subtag for the encompassed language itself. [...]</t>


Btwe, regarding the following sentence, what does "However, the 
Macrolanguage concept doesn't define ..." etc mean? The last bit "..., 
nor does it define ..." is understandable. But else, the concept of 
Macrolanguage means that the relationship is that they are part of the 
same macrolanguage. You seem to have in mind a situation where one has 
specified e.g. 'zh', and where this may become a problem for the user  
*outside* a language negotiation context? What problem could that be? 
That can only be a problem if the Macrolanguage is associatied with a 
language that user does not understand. However, that is a separate 
issue. Or - then you should say that this can lead to bad language 
negotiation results. I see no problems outside a negotions context. I.e. 
the entire computere is Cantonese, then using 'yum' for Cantonese poses 
no problem. So, the problem you describ is not that there is any unclear 
link from encompassed language to encompassing macrolanguage, but that 
the link from macrolanguage to encompassing language is a one to many 
link. (Thus, the problem is language negotiation, really.)

I'd like, therefore, to propose this text instead, which makes clearer 
that the problem of using the macrolanguage tag is because many 
languages share the same tag:

    <t>[...] However, while the identification from any encompassed
    language to its encompassing macrolanguage is straight forward, the
    relationship from a particular macrolanguage to its encompassed
    languges is always a one to many relationship. Hence the question of
    how, or to which degree, languages encompassed by the same
    macrolanguage are usefully related to each other, is not covered by
    the macrolanguage consept itself.

> I would respond point-by-point to the rest of your email, but most of your comments seem like a misreading of what the text I proposed says. It says quite clearly that the encompassed language is RECOMMENDED over the macrolanguage subtag... that is, the macrolanguage subtag is to be avoided. There is an extensive example using Chinese that you omit from your commentary.
>   

I think my misunderstanding was limited to that very phrase, allthough 
it certainly colored some of the rest of what I said.

Yes, you said RECOMMENDED. But immediately after you said RECOMMENDED, 
you said - as I quoted - that if there was a tradition for it, then one 
"SHOULD" use the macrolangue subtag. And I am interested in the question 
I raised in that context. How can you not admit that the text opens up 
the loophole I described?

And how are we to find out how the tradition is to be interpreted? How 
do we know that the tradition is to treat the tag as "that spesific 
encompassed language" instead of "that tag just seemed to work, and it 
was not wrong ether"?

I think even when there is a tradition, there should be incentive to 
instead use the spesific language subtag.

Thus my concrete proposal is that swtich from

    [......], it MAY be used in place of the subtag specific [...]

instead of

    [...], it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag specific [...]


> Please note: this editor, at least, finds it most useful if you propose specific text to right the wrongs you suppose appear in the text. It is easier to discuss specific proposals--not to mention to incorporate them--if you do. 

Thank you. I like that attitude very much. I tried my limited very best 
above.

> I think you'll find that, if you re-read my proposal carefully, it says everything that my option #2 proposed to Karen. I would stipulate that the wording is slightly weaker than my proposal for Karen (it doesn't say 'zh' == deprecated, but it frowns extremely hard at 'zh', along with most of its Macrolanguage brethren).
>   

I agree that macrolanguage tags should not be deprecated. I hope you 
find my proposals support what you said here.

> Finally, you mention language negotiation, I think wrongly. It is not a topic for this document, generally. We have a document about it. It is called RFC 4647 and it is part of BCP 47.
>   

I disagree, because I was not speaking about that issue in its entirety, 
as you do there. I rather said that you should have language negotiation 
in mind when you are formulating the text.

 I was merely trying to place your text in a context where one would 
turn to it for guidance. The times one most needs guidance about these 
issues mostly relate to language negotation (in a broad sense) - either 
between one macrolanguage and another language (zh verus en) or between 
encompassed languages. (The right choice between macrolanguge subtag 
versus encompassed language subtag for each of those to language 
negotiations situations, might differ.)

I.e. I did not say that you should give specific guidance about language 
negotiation. I only tried to say that the text should be formulated in 
such a way that it would not confuse those who are looking at it to 
solve such problems.
-- 
leif halvard silli


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Leif Halvard Silli 2008-05-15 05.07:

> I.e. the entire computere is Cantonese, then using 'yum' for Cantonese 
> poses no problem.



Sorry, the above should be read as "then using ***'zh'*** for 
Cantonese poses no problem."
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: [Ltru] Preparing to wrap up extlang
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Hi -

As WG co-chair...

We had hoped that we'd be wrapping up a second WG last call
on the ltru drafts.  From the recent deluge of mail, its
clear that there are serious misgivings about the current
drafts' treatment of the extlang issue.  While we hate to
see old issues re-opened, we also believe it is important
to make sure that the choices made are technically correct,
at least to the extent that a "correct" choice is possible.

In order to bring this to a close, I suggest the following:
   - wrap up the technical discussion of the pros and cons
     of the various proposals for the extlang issue.  I'm not
     horribly concerned about the word-smithing, but I do
     want to get to the point where everyone is comfortable
     that they've stated their case for handling things one
     way or another.  As a deadline, I propose Saturday May 17.

   - a couple of days of "cooling off" for folks to catch up
     with all the postings and to think about the consequences
     of one approach or another.  I ask folks to refrain from
     posting May 18-20.  Thinking time helps.

   - a consensus call on the "extlang or not extlang" question
     to end Saturday, May 24.  I'll plan to put the questions
     in terms of both elegance and of implementation consequences,
     and to provide for positive, negative, and don't care responses.

Shortly thereafter Martin and I will instruct the editors to
do the right thing.  I know this is a bit longer than some of
us might like, but this is clearly the most important issue
before this WG, with lots of consequences for all involved.

Randy
ltru co-chair

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>
> To avoid misundersandings I'd like to propose this change, then, to
> link
> the 'subtag' word more strongly to the 'Macrolanguage' term, and to
> emphasise that the statement is true for "any encompassed language":
>
>     <t>For any encompassed language, it is always permitted and
> sometimes useful, to use the Macrolanguage subtag in place of the
> subtag for the encompassed language itself. [...]</t>

I think this stresses the encompassed language too much. How about:

---
It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to use the Macrolanguage subtag in place of the encompassed language's subtag.
---

> You seem to have in mind a situation where one has
> specified e.g. 'zh', and where this may become a problem for the user
> *outside* a language negotiation context? What problem could that be?
> That can only be a problem if the Macrolanguage is associatied with a
> language that user does not understand.

Speakers of Mandarin (who speak only Mandarin) have no idea what Cantonese speakers are saying when the speak to one-another. There is no guarantee that encompassed languages are mutually intelligible on any level, even with extra effort. An example that should be familiar to you: Danish is far closer to Norwegian than many of the Chinese or Arabic languages are to one-another.


> However, that is a separate
> issue. Or - then you should say that this can lead to bad language
> negotiation results. I see no problems outside a negotions context. I.e.
> the entire computere is Cantonese, then using 'yum' for Cantonese poses
> no problem. So, the problem you describ is not that there is any
> unclear
> link from encompassed language to encompassing macrolanguage, but that
> the link from macrolanguage to encompassing language is a one to many
> link. (Thus, the problem is language negotiation, really.)

There is no prohibition on using 'zh'. There is a recommendation that you should use 'yue' (Cantonese) when you *mean* Cantonese. If you just mean "some Chinese language", you're welcome to use 'zh', even if "some Chinese language", in your specific case, means "Cantonese Chinese". Of course, you may experience problems with the outside world (when your isolated computer dials up Compuserve, they may consider 'zh' to mean Xiang).

>
> I'd like, therefore, to propose this text instead, which makes clearer
> that the problem of using the macrolanguage tag is because many
> languages share the same tag:
>
>     <t>[...] However, while the identification from any encompassed
>     language to its encompassing macrolanguage is straight forward, the

I don't think it is. In fact, we say that there is no specific definition here.

>     relationship from a particular macrolanguage to its encompassed
>     languges is always a one to many relationship. Hence the question
> of
>     how, or to which degree, languages encompassed by the same
>     macrolanguage are usefully related to each other, is not covered by
>     the macrolanguage consept itself.

I don't see what the point of this text is: we already say this.

>
> Yes, you said RECOMMENDED. But immediately after you said RECOMMENDED,
> you said - as I quoted - that if there was a tradition for it, then one
> "SHOULD" use the macrolangue subtag. And I am interested in the
> question
> I raised in that context. How can you not admit that the text opens up
> the loophole I described?

There is a specific table of languages for which this is the case directly below the text introduced with the text "The pairs of macro and encompassed languages affected by this issue when this document was published were:"

Perhaps we should not have this table. That is something to discuss. The SHOULD text goes with that table.

>
> I think even when there is a tradition, there should be incentive to
> instead use the spesific language subtag.

There are five languages where some people feel that isn't true. These are Arabic, Konkani, Malay, Swahili, and Uzbek.

>
> Thus my concrete proposal is that swtich from
>
>     [......], it MAY be used in place of the subtag specific [...]
>
> instead of
>
>     [...], it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag specific [...]

I understand that English is not your first language. I think you mean the opposite of what you say above.

I selected SHOULD in the interest of meeting Karen (and other's) desire for firm guidance on language tag choices. For the reason why SHOULD here, see above.


>
> > Finally, you mention language negotiation, I think wrongly. It is not
> a topic for this document, generally. We have a document about it. It
> is called RFC 4647 and it is part of BCP 47.
> >
>
> I disagree, because I was not speaking about that issue in its entirety,
> as you do there. I rather said that you should have language
> negotiation
> in mind when you are formulating the text.

I always have language negotiation in mind. However, there are many contexts where language negotiation is not called for. I think this is one of Karen's points. We treat negotiation separately on purpose, but it is never far from (some of our) minds.

Addison


Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.




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Where did you get the input you give below for ISO FDIS 639-6, Debbie? =

Here are the usual divisions of Continental Celtic [sic] in use in our =

universities: Lepontic, Celtiberian, Gaulish, Galatian.
mg

ltru

Scr=EDobh Debbie Garside:
> Within ISO FDIS 639-6 data the hierarchy is as follows:
>  =

> ineu 	wrld 	Indo-European
> cltc 	ineu 	Celtic
> cclc 	cltc 	Celtic Continental =

> lptc 	cclc 	Lepontic
> glsh 	cclc 	Gaulish
> xcg 	glsh 	Cisalpine Gaulish
> xtg 	glsh 	Transalpine Gaulish
>
>  =

> If anyone has any comments/better ideas now is the time to say so as I =

> am just putting the final touches to the data.
>  =

> best
>  =

> Debbie


-- =



Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an
Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire.
* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *
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Sending this to LTRU list, because the  <wgchairs@ietf.org>   address =

Martin gave rejects mail from non-chairs.  Anyway, what I wanted to say =

to them is that Dublin has become such a popular venue for international =

mtgs in the last 7 yrs or so that is no trouble at all for us to =

accommodate LTRU.

However, it must be said that the suggested dates (as given below) fall =

during the busiest tourist time (July/August), when you can prepare =

yourselves for crowding, unreasonable prices, trashy tourist shows and =

less chance of attracting native interest (if that is what LTRU wants). =

September/October promises you better hotels available, classier shows =

and more working intellectuals in town, so maybe a re-think on those =

dates might be advisable (here I am speaking from local knowledge only, =

which counts for nothing if LTRU organizers have other, more pressing, =

considerations, or really enjoy the buzz of a busy capital city's main =

tourist season).

How many LTRU participants can be  expected? My guess, not that many. =

Already this year, I have organized events for two gatherings of 50-70 =

people respectively, one for elected delegates from groups all over =

Ireland and America, the other for two European nations and am now =

preparing to send 20-30 Irish people to a conference abroad, but they =

will all have left Ireland by July 28, so the offer to help prepare for =

another conference for the same week still stands, as that would suit me =

best, so I'd appreciate it if someone so authorized would please fwd =

this msg to <wgchairs@ietf.org>
mg


Scr=EDobh Marion Gunn:
> Opinion in favour of organizing an LTRU WG meeting here in Dublin (and =

> offering to help).
> mg
>
> Scr=EDobh Martin Duerst:
>> Dear LTRU WG members,
>>
>> If you have any opinion on holding an LTRU WG meeting in Dublin
>> (or not holding such a meeting), please tell the chairs.
>>
>> Regards,    Martin.
>>
>>   =

>>> From: IETF Agenda <agenda@ietf.org>
>>> To: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>
...


-- =



Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an
Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire.
* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *
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Hi Marion

The conversation was specifically about Gaulish and I was showing just that
aspect which happened to include Lepontic as I cut and paste it from my
list.

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Marion Gunn
> Sent: 15 May 2008 12:06
> To: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
>
>
> Where did you get the input you give below for ISO FDIS
> 639-6, Debbie?
> Here are the usual divisions of Continental Celtic [sic] in use in our
> universities: Lepontic, Celtiberian, Gaulish, Galatian.
> mg
>
> ltru
>
> Scríobh Debbie Garside:
> > Within ISO FDIS 639-6 data the hierarchy is as follows:
> >
> > ineu 	wrld 	Indo-European
> > cltc 	ineu 	Celtic
> > cclc 	cltc 	Celtic Continental
> > lptc 	cclc 	Lepontic
> > glsh 	cclc 	Gaulish
> > xcg 	glsh 	Cisalpine Gaulish
> > xtg 	glsh 	Transalpine Gaulish
> >
> >
> > If anyone has any comments/better ideas now is the time to
> say so as I
> > am just putting the final touches to the data.
> >
> > best
> >
> > Debbie
>
>
> --
>
>
> Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
> 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an
> Bhóthair, Co. Átha Cliath, Éire.
> * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>





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From: Marion Gunn <mgunn@egt.ie>
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I'd still like to know the source you used, Debbie, because, as =

presented in your original msg, it looks non-standard. If it is just =

down to presentation, maybe you could also cut and paste the hierarchy =

of Continental Celtic (as you understand it to be) into your next msg, =

to give us some context by which to judge that?
mg

Scr=EDobh Debbie Garside:
> Hi Marion
>
> The conversation was specifically about Gaulish and I was showing just th=
at
> aspect which happened to include Lepontic as I cut and paste it from my
> list.
>
> Best
>
> Debbie
>
>   =

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Marion Gunn
>> Sent: 15 May 2008 12:06
>> To: 'LTRU Working Group'
>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
>>
>>
>> Where did you get the input you give below for ISO FDIS
>> 639-6, Debbie?
>> Here are the usual divisions of Continental Celtic [sic] in use in our
>> universities: Lepontic, Celtiberian, Gaulish, Galatian.
>> mg
>>
>> ltru
>>
>> Scr=EDobh Debbie Garside:
>>     =

>>> Within ISO FDIS 639-6 data the hierarchy is as follows:
>>>
>>> ineu 	wrld 	Indo-European
>>> cltc 	ineu 	Celtic
>>> cclc 	cltc 	Celtic Continental
>>> lptc 	cclc 	Lepontic
>>> glsh 	cclc 	Gaulish
>>> xcg 	glsh 	Cisalpine Gaulish
>>> xtg 	glsh 	Transalpine Gaulish
>>>
>>>
>>> If anyone has any comments/better ideas now is the time to
>>>       =

>> say so as I
>>     =

>>> am just putting the final touches to the data.
>>>
>>> best
>>>
>>> Debbie


-- =



Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an
Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire.
* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *
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On 8 May 2008, at 1:11 AM, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote:

> "oeddict" -- I might prefer "oxford" as the tag if there's not another
> linguistic use for that term.

I'd prefer oxford too, it's an extant word which is easier to say and =20=

thus less prone to typos.

=97 Nicholas=

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 15 06:49:56 2008
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From: Marion Gunn <mgunn@egt.ie>
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Both 'oed' and 'oxford' make sense, but 'oeddict' makes no sense at all, =

especially as it took some time for me to work out that it sports what =

some English people charmingly describe as a 'reduplicated' letter.
mg

Scr=EDobh Nicholas Shanks:
> On 8 May 2008, at 1:11 AM, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote:
>
>> "oeddict" -- I might prefer "oxford" as the tag if there's not another
>> linguistic use for that term.
>
> I'd prefer oxford too, it's an extant word which is easier to say and =

> thus less prone to typos.
>
> =97 Nicholas


-- =



Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an
Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire.
* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *
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Hi Marion

I didn't realise there was a "standard".  As far as I know there are
differing viewpoints throughout linguistics wrt language hierarchy and
naming conventions.  However, to answer your question, the source is the
draft data from ISO FDIS 639-6 which has been compiled by GeoLang Ltd and I
am happy to paste the file for Celtic here in order for you to suggest
corrections/amendments.  This is very much off topic for this list so it may
be better to post comments and suggestions to me privately.  However, I have
no objection to you making comments etc. publicly on LTRU if the Chairs have
no objection.

best regards

Debbie
PS I may not respond further on this today as I am supposed to be in bed
with Pleurisy!

ISO FDIS 639-6 Draft Data for Celtic

ineu	wrld	Indo-European
cltc	ineu	Celtic
cclc	cltc	Celtic Continental
lptc	cclc	Lepontic
glsh	cclc	Gaulish
xcg	glsh	Cisalpine Gaulish
xtg	glsh	Transalpine Gaulish
gltn	cclc	Galatian
cbrn	cclc	Celitberian
islr	cltc	Insular
gdlc	islr	Goidelic
ghc	gdlc	Hiberno-Scottish Gaelic
ghcw	ghc	Hiberno-Scottish Gaelic Written
ghcl	ghcw	Hiberno-Scottish Gaelic Written Latin Script
gla	gdlc	Gaelic (Scots)
glaw	gla	Gaelic (Scots) Written
glal	glaw	Gaelic (Scots) Written Latin Script
mvgc	glaw	Gaelic (Scots) Written Latin Script Medieval
chgc	glaw	Gaelic (Scots) Written Latin Script Church
gcsw	glaw	Gaelic (Scots) Written Latin Script Standardised
glas	gcsd	Gaelic (Scots) Spoken
gdhl	glas	Gàidhlig-NE
glgn	glas	Gàidhlig-N
wstr	glgn	Wester Ross
rssw	glgn	Ross SW
rsnw	glgn	Ross NW
cbch	glgn	Cataibhach
chnw	glgn	Cataibhach NW
erbi	glgn	Easter Ross Black Isle
erro	glgn	Easter Ross
blie	glgn	Black Isle
ldch	glas	Leodhaisach
lisw	ldch	Lewis W
lisn	ldch	Lewis N
lewe	ldch	Lewis E
lise	ldch	Lewis SE
hdch	glas	Hearadhach
hdhn	hdch	Hearadhach N
spgh	hdch	Scalpeigh
hrch	hdch	Hearadhach S
hirt	hdch	Hiort
utch	glas	Uibhistach
ubhn	utch	Uibhistach-N
bngh	glas	Bearnaraigh
bnfa	bngh	Beinn-Na-Faoghla
ubch	bngh	Uibhistach-S
brgh	bngh	Barraighach
srah	glas	Sgianach
skyn	srah	Skye N
skyc	srah	Skye C
slet	srah	Sleat
rsay	srah	Raasay
regh	glas	Rhumach Eiggach
egah	regh	Eiggach
ruma	regh	Rhumach
trdh	glas	Tiriodhach Muileach
clah	trdh	Collach
mlea	trdh	Muileach
toch	trdh	Tiriodhach
whdg	glas	West Highlands Gaelic
mnmr	whdg	Murchan- Mòrar
wlar	whdg	West Loch Abar
ggsw	glas	Gàidhlig-SW
lllm	ggsw	Loch Leven-Lios Mor
obnl	ggsw	Oban-Lorn
ieac	ggsw	Ileach
ergl	ggsw	Earra-Ghaidheal
cnty	ggsw	Cinn Tyre
anac	ggsw	Aranach
chgd	glas	Central Highlands Gaelic
nnis	chgd	Nis
nrnn	chgd	Nàrann
sspe	chgd	Strath Spé
bach	chgd	Bàideanach
gled	chgd	Glen Dee
ggap	chgd	Gàidhlig Ann Am Peairt
elar	chgd	East Loch Aber
gnhn	glas	Gàidhlig-Na-Halba-Nuadh
capb	gnhn	Cap Breton
nshr	gnhn	North Shore
mbou	gnhn	Mabou
sga	gdlc	Old Irish (To 900)
sgaw	sga	Old Irish (To 900) Written
sgal	sgaw	Old Irish (To 900) Written Latin Script
mga	gdlc	Middle Irish (900-1200)
mgaw	mga	Middle Irish (900-1200) Written
mgal	mgaw	Middle Irish (900-1200)  Written Latin Script
emih	gdlc	Early Modern Irish
emiw	emih	Early Modern Irish Written
emil	emiw	Early Modern Irish Written Latin Script
gle	gdlc	Irish
glew	gle	Irish Written
glel	glew	Irish Written Latin Script
gles	gle	Irish Spoken
ggee	gles	Gaeilge-Éire
ggur	gles	Gaeilge Ulster
glne	ggur	Gaeilge-NE
rtln	glne	Rathlin
amgl	glne	Antrim-Glens
sprn	glne	Sperrin
genw	ggur	Gaeilge-NW
amca	genw	Ard-Macha
dgln	ggur	Dún-Na-Ngall NW
togh	dgln	Toraigh
fnid	dgln	Fànaid
chca	dgln	Cloch-Chionnaola
ghdr	dgln	Gaoth-Dobhair
nrsa	dgln	Na Rosa
amhr	dgln	Årainn Mhór
tclr	dgln	Tir Chonaill-Láir
shth	dgln	Shliabh-Tuaidh
ggew	gles	Gaeilge-W
mgeo	ggew	Maigh-Eo
lrra	mgeo	Lorras
cadh	mgeo	Cnoc-An-Daimh
amtd	mgeo	An Mhuirthead
alnc	mgeo	Acaill-An Corrán
tmeh	mgeo	Tuar Mhic Èadaigh
dusg	mgeo	Dúiche Sheoighe
raca	mgeo	Ráth-Cairn
glmh	gles	Gaillimh
axan	gles	Aran
gaig	gles	Gaeilge-S
crri	gles	Ciarraí
cade	crri	Corca-Dhuibne
mcra	crri	Múscrai
cler	crri	Cléire
corc	gles	Corcaigh
ptle	gles	Phort-Láirge
mimi	gles	Mí
glv	gdlc	Manx
glvw	glv	Manx  Written
glvh	glvw	Manx Written Latin Script Historical
glvl	glvw	Manx Written Latin Script Modern
glvs	glv	Manx Spoken
rvmx	glvs	Revived Manx
glvx	glvs	Manx Traditional
mxtd	glvx	Manninagh-NW
mxse	glvx	Manninagh-SE
mani	glvx	Manninagh-S
bycc	islr	Brythonic Cluster
cym	bycc	Welsh
cymw	cym	Welsh Written
odwh	cymw	Welsh Written Old Latin Script
mdwh	cymw	Welsh Written Middle Latin Script
pmnw	cymw	Welsh Written Pre-Modern Latin Script
cyml	cymw	Welsh Written Latin Script
cyms	cym	Welsh Spoken
cygn	cyms	Cymraeg-N
cynw	cygn	Cymraeg-N Written
cynl	cynw	Cymraeg-N Wtitten Latin Script
cymn	cygn	Cymraeg-N Spoken
iymn	cymn	Iaith Ynys Môn
cggn	cymn	Cymraeg Sir-Gaernarfon
llyn	cymn	Lleyn
bngr	cymn	Bangor
cnwy	cymn	Conwy
erxi	cymn	Eryi
ihyc	cymn	Iaith Y Cofis
cgne	cymn	Cymraeg-NE
mydd	cgne	Meirionydd
dfdn	cgne	Drefaldwyn
amhi	cgne	Amwythig
crgc	cymn	Cymraeg-C
cyra	cyms	Cymraeg-S
crag	cyra	Cymraeg-S Written
cgln	crag	Cymraeg-S Written Latin Script
cspn	cyra	Cymraeg-S Spoken
creg	cspn	Cymraeg-CS
gucf	cspn	Gwy Uchaf
byni	cspn	Brycheiniog
wcrg	cspn	Cymraeg-W
abyt	wcrg	Aberystwyth
abfi	wcrg	Aberteifi
cgsw	abfi	Cymraeg-SW
crdn	cgsw	Caerfyrddin
ldyf	cgsw	Llanymddyfri
llli	cgsw	Llanelli
isbo	cgsw	Iaith Sir Benfro
psli	cgsw	Preseli
tydi	cgsw	Ty Ddewi
cgwn	cgsw	Cwm Gwuan
ghsg	cyra	Gwenhwyseg
txwe	ghsg	Tawe
nexd	ghsg	Nedd
tfra	ghsg	Tâf Rhondda
ryni	ghsg	Rhymni
cylh	cyms	Cymlish
cyee	cyms	Cymraeg Émigré
lpcn	cyee	Lerpwi-Caerllion
lldn	cyee	Llundain
cgad	cyee	Cymraeg Americanaidd
cywa	cyms	Cymraeg-Y-Wladfa
ctct	cywa	Chubut Coast
ctum	cywa	Chubut Upstream
cor	bycc	Cornish
corw	cor	Cornish Written
pdch	corw	Cornish Written Latin Script Old
pmch	corw	Cornish  Written Latin Script Pre-Modern
corl	corw	Cornish Written Latin Script Modern
cors	cor	Cornish Spoken
mdch	cors	Modern Revived Cornish
kmyn	mdch	Kemmyn
bre	bycc	Breton
brew	bre	Breton Written
mdvb	brew	Breton Written Latin Script Medieval
pebn	brew	Breton Written Latin Script Pre-Modern
brel	brew	Breton Written Latin Script Modern
kltr	brew	Kerne-Leon-Treger
bres	bre	Breton Spoken
bzgb	bres	Brezhoneg-Beleg
bklt	bres	Brezhoneg-Kernev
bpvn	bres	Brezhoneg-Peurunvan
bgfg	bres	Falc’huneg
brmo	bres	Brezhoneg Morvanaoueg
treg	bres	Tregerieg
trew	treg	Tregerieg Written
trel	trew	Tregerieg Written Latin Script
trgw	treg	Tregerieg-W
trgc	treg	Tregerieg-C
tgse	treg	Tregerieg-SE
gelo	bres	Brezhoneg Gouelou
lneg	bres	Leoneg
lego	lneg	Leoneg Written
leon	lego	Leoneg Written Latin Script
baxz	lneg	Batz
lnge	lneg	Leoneg Uhel
lngc	lneg	Leoneg-C
lngw	lneg	Leoneg-Izel
ucnt	lneg	Uchant
mlen	lneg	Molène
kveg	bres	Kerneveg
kgne	kveg	Brezhoneg Kerne-Uhel
kngn	kveg	Kerneveg-N
kgnw	kveg	Kerneveg-NW
kegw	kveg	Kerneveg-W
snan	kveg	Sénan
kgsw	kveg	Brezhoneg Ketrne-Uhel
kgse	kveg	Kerneveg-SE
dwdg	kveg	Gwenedeg-Izel
gdge	bycc	Gwenedeg-Uhel
ggeu	gdge	Gwenedeg-Uhel Written
gael	ggeu	Gwenedeg-Uhel  Written Latin Script
gigx	gdge	Gwenedeg-Uhel Spoken
vann	gigx	Vannes
goix	gigx	Groix
huat	gigx	Houat

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Marion Gunn
> Sent: 15 May 2008 13:58
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
>
> I'd still like to know the source you used, Debbie, because,
> as presented in your original msg, it looks non-standard. If
> it is just down to presentation, maybe you could also cut and
> paste the hierarchy of Continental Celtic (as you understand
> it to be) into your next msg, to give us some context by
> which to judge that?
> mg
>
> Scríobh Debbie Garside:
> > Hi Marion
> >
> > The conversation was specifically about Gaulish and I was
> showing just
> > that aspect which happened to include Lepontic as I cut and
> paste it
> > from my list.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf
> >> Of Marion Gunn
> >> Sent: 15 May 2008 12:06
> >> To: 'LTRU Working Group'
> >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
> >>
> >>
> >> Where did you get the input you give below for ISO FDIS 639-6,
> >> Debbie?
> >> Here are the usual divisions of Continental Celtic [sic] in use in
> >> our
> >> universities: Lepontic, Celtiberian, Gaulish, Galatian.
> >> mg
> >>
> >> ltru
> >>
> >> Scríobh Debbie Garside:
> >>
> >>> Within ISO FDIS 639-6 data the hierarchy is as follows:
> >>>
> >>> ineu 	wrld 	Indo-European
> >>> cltc 	ineu 	Celtic
> >>> cclc 	cltc 	Celtic Continental
> >>> lptc 	cclc 	Lepontic
> >>> glsh 	cclc 	Gaulish
> >>> xcg 	glsh 	Cisalpine Gaulish
> >>> xtg 	glsh 	Transalpine Gaulish
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If anyone has any comments/better ideas now is the time to
> >>>
> >> say so as I
> >>
> >>> am just putting the final touches to the data.
> >>>
> >>> best
> >>>
> >>> Debbie
>
>
> --
>
>
> Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
> 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an
> Bhóthair, Co. Átha Cliath, Éire.
> * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>





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	"'Martin Duerst'" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Hi Marion

The date is already decided as it is designed to coincide with the 72nd IETF
Meeting in Dublin.

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Marion Gunn
> Sent: 15 May 2008 13:44
> To: 'LTRU Working Group'; Martin Duerst
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: 72nd IETF - Working Group/BOF
> Scheduling - REMINDER
>
> Sending this to LTRU list, because the  <wgchairs@ietf.org>   address
> Martin gave rejects mail from non-chairs.  Anyway, what I
> wanted to say to them is that Dublin has become such a
> popular venue for international mtgs in the last 7 yrs or so
> that is no trouble at all for us to accommodate LTRU.
>
> However, it must be said that the suggested dates (as given
> below) fall during the busiest tourist time (July/August),
> when you can prepare yourselves for crowding, unreasonable
> prices, trashy tourist shows and less chance of attracting
> native interest (if that is what LTRU wants).
> September/October promises you better hotels available,
> classier shows and more working intellectuals in town, so
> maybe a re-think on those dates might be advisable (here I am
> speaking from local knowledge only, which counts for nothing
> if LTRU organizers have other, more pressing, considerations,
> or really enjoy the buzz of a busy capital city's main
> tourist season).
>
> How many LTRU participants can be  expected? My guess, not that many.
> Already this year, I have organized events for two gatherings
> of 50-70 people respectively, one for elected delegates from
> groups all over Ireland and America, the other for two
> European nations and am now preparing to send 20-30 Irish
> people to a conference abroad, but they will all have left
> Ireland by July 28, so the offer to help prepare for another
> conference for the same week still stands, as that would suit
> me best, so I'd appreciate it if someone so authorized would
> please fwd this msg to <wgchairs@ietf.org> mg
>
>
> Scríobh Marion Gunn:
> > Opinion in favour of organizing an LTRU WG meeting here in
> Dublin (and
> > offering to help).
> > mg
> >
> > Scríobh Martin Duerst:
> >> Dear LTRU WG members,
> >>
> >> If you have any opinion on holding an LTRU WG meeting in
> Dublin (or
> >> not holding such a meeting), please tell the chairs.
> >>
> >> Regards,    Martin.
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: IETF Agenda <agenda@ietf.org>
> >>> To: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>
> ...
>
>
> --
>
>
> Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
> 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an
> Bhóthair, Co. Átha Cliath, Éire.
> * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>





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Marion Gunn scripsit:

> Where did you get the input you give below for ISO FDIS 639-6, Debbie? 
> Here are the usual divisions of Continental Celtic [sic]

All 639-6 compound names are in noun-adjective order.

> in use in our 
> universities: Lepontic, Celtiberian, Gaulish, Galatian.

There's a dispute about cisalpine [sic] Gaulish vs. Lepontic.
As Wikipedia puts it:

	The grouping of all of these [Lepontic] inscriptions into a single
	Celtic language is disputed, and some (including specifically all
	of the older ones) are said to be in a non-Celtic language related
	to Ligurian (Whatmough 1933, Pisani 1964).  Under this view, which
	was the prevailing view until about 1970, Lepontic is the correct
	name for the non-Celtic language, while the Celtic language is
	to be called Cisalpine Gaulish.  Following Lejeune (1971), the
	consensus view became that Lepontic should be classified as a
	Celtic language, albeit possibly as divergent as Celtiberian,
	and in any case quite distinct from Cisalpine Gaulish.  Only in
	recent years, there has been a tendency to identify Lepontic
	and Cisalpine Gaulish as one and the same language.

Given the two mandates to organize all human language varieties into
a single tree based on genetic relatedness and to remain compatible
with ISO 639-3, plus the sparsity of hard knowledge and the diversity
of opinion, especially among scholars of ancient languages, it is
unlikely that any specific 639-6 will please everyone or even anyone.
Yet a specific version we must have if 639-6 is to take off.

-- 
While staying with the Asonu, I met a man from      John Cowan
the Candensian plane, which is very much like       cowan@ccil.org
ours, only more of it consists of Toronto.          http://:www.ccil.org/~cowan
        --Ursula K. Le Guin, Changing Planes
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Okay, so I have 2 problems. I'd like my computer to use commonwealth =20
spellings over US spellings. I'd also like to ship some software with =20=

only two localisations for English.

Translations on the Mac OS are identified with standard language =20
identifiers (good start). Often the translation given under the =20
generic "en" code has US spelling, and the commonwealth spelling will =20=

be given under en_GB (e.g. Firefox), but this isn't guaranteed, and =20
software from the UK often has en with Commonwealth spelling and en_US =20=

in addition. Furthermore, software from other anglophone countries may =20=

forgo en_GB altogether. My own company (based in Germany) has decided =20=

that our software will use US spelling for the generic English.

This means I have to set my language fallback list to something like =20
this, in order to catch an app's non-US locale if available:

en_GB, en_IE, en_NZ, en_AU, en_ZA, en_JM, en_IN, en_PK, en_BD, en_CA, =20=

en, fr, de

And provide at least 11 different translations for our software:

en (with US spellings)
en_GB (with commonwealth spellings)
en_everything_else symlinked to en_GB or duplicated (if symlinks don't =20=

work, haven't tested this yet)

This is so that an australian, who only has "Australian English" in =20
his language list preferences (and thus only "en_AU, en" as his =20
fallback list) will not get the US spelling.


I would much rather be able to ship:

en (with US spelling), and
en_cwealth   (variant identifier TBD)


I don't want to say anything about the language as it is pronounced, =20
only it's orthography (similar to en_oxford, de_1901 and de_1996), =20
since the content is written in nature. I realise that this solution =20
won't work in the short term, since people won't have the new =20
identifier in their OS yet.

Would a formal proposal for this be viable? Has anyone got any =20
suggestions before I start?
An alternative i considered is asking the UN to register a three digit =20=

M49 code for the Commonwealth of Nations. Would this be doable? How =20
approachable are the UN?! :-)


=97 Nicholas=

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Peter Constable and I were at the Unicode Technical Committee meeting, and
had a chance to talk about macrolanguages. One of the key points is to
provide implementers with enough guidance as to what they should do, while
not precluding reasonable alternatives. Here's what we were thinking about
(not in formal language, but the points we wanted to make).

===

Formally, a macrolanguage identifier could be used to tag or look up content
in any encompassed language; alternately, specific, individual-language
identifiers could be used to tag or look up content in those languages. In
consideration of these alternatives, the following provides guidance for how
to maintain backwards compatibility while giving the ability to clearly tag
and lookup content.

1. Implementations generally should tag and/or lookup content with the
specific language where possible (this is the general recommendation with
language tags). In the case of macrolanguages, this means that Cantonese
should be tagged and looked up with "yue", Hakka with "hak", Tajiki Arabic
with "abh", Plains Cree with "crk", and so on.

2. An exception to this general recommendation may apply in the case of
macrolanguages with predominant forms, listed in Table 8. For backwards
compatibility in those cases:

   - an implementation could tag and/or lookup content in the predominant
   language either with the macrolanguage or the encompassed language. (eg
   either "ar" or "arb" for Standard Arabic).
   - an implementation could make a distinction between these in lookup, or
   could return the same content. That is, lookup for "zh-SG" and "cmn-SG" may
   return the same content, or may return different content if the
   implementation needs to make a distinction for some purpose.
   - where content written in an encompassed language is also understandable
   in the predominant language (that being a distinct language encompassed by
   the same macrolanguage), the content could also be tagged with the
   macrolanguage identifier. Thus if a Cantonese passage is understandable if
   read as Mandarin, it could also be tagged with "zh", or where a Tajiki
   Arabic passage is also understandable in Standard Arabic it could be tagged
   with "ar".

3. Another exception to this general recommendation applies in the case of
applications that have limitations that exclude the identifiers for
encompassed, individual languages of a macrolanguage. For example, some
content cataloguing systems limit language identifiers to those in ISO
639-2; as a result, they may support a macrolanguage identifier but not the
identifiers for the encompassed languages of that macrolanguage.

Mark and Peter

--
Mark

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<span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">Peter Constable and I were at the Unicode Technical Committee meeting, and had a chance to talk about macrolanguages. One of the key points is to provide implementers with enough guidance as to what they should do, while not precluding reasonable alternatives. Here&#39;s what we were thinking about (not in formal language, but the points we wanted to make).</span><br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">
<br>===<br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">Formally, a macrolanguage identifier could be used to tag or look up content in any encompassed language; alternately, specific, individual-language identifiers could be used to tag or look up content in those languages. In consideration of these alternatives, the following provides guidance for how to maintain backwards compatibility while giving the ability to clearly tag and lookup content.</span><br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">
<br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">1. Implementations generally should tag and/or lookup content with the specific language where possible (this is the general recommendation with language tags). In the case of macrolanguages, this means that Cantonese should be tagged and looked up with &quot;yue&quot;, Hakka with &quot;hak&quot;, Tajiki Arabic with &quot;abh&quot;, Plains Cree with &quot;crk&quot;, and so on.</span><br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">
<br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">2. An exception to this general recommendation&nbsp;may apply in the case of macrolanguages with predominant forms, listed in Table 8. For backwards compatibility in those cases:</span><font style="font-family: times new roman,serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="2">

</font><ul style="font-family: times new roman,serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" type="disc"><div class="Ih2E3d"><div>
 <li><font size="2">an implementation could tag and/or lookup content
     in the predominant language either with the macrolanguage or the
     encompassed language. (eg either &quot;ar&quot; or &quot;arb&quot; for
     Standard Arabic).</font></li>
 <li><font size="2">an implementation could make a distinction
     between these in lookup, or could return the same content. That is, lookup
     for &quot;zh-SG&quot; and &quot;cmn-SG&quot; may return the same content,
     or may return different content if the implementation needs to make a
     distinction for some purpose.</font></li>
 </div></div><li><font size="2">where
     content written in&nbsp;an encompassed
     language is also understandable in the predominant language (that being a
     distinct language encompassed by the same macrolanguage), the
     content could also be tagged with the macrolanguage identifier. Thus if a
     Cantonese passage is understandable if read as Mandarin, it could also be
     tagged with &quot;zh&quot;, or where a Tajiki Arabic passage is also
     understandable in Standard Arabic it could be tagged with &quot;ar&quot;.</font></li></ul><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">3. Another exception to this general recommendation applies in the case of applications that have limitations that exclude the identifiers for encompassed, individual languages of a macrolanguage. For example, some content cataloguing systems limit language identifiers to those in ISO 639-2; as a result, they may support a macrolanguage identifier but not the identifiers for the encompassed languages of that macrolanguage.</span><br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">
<br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">Mark and Peter</span><br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">--</span><br>
Mark

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 15 08:43:20 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Commonwealth English orthography
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Nicholas Shanks scripsit:

> I would much rather be able to ship:
> 
> en (with US spelling), and
> en_cwealth   (variant identifier TBD)

You should take this to ietf-languages@iana.org, which is the mailing list for
proposing *specific* language tags.

In any case, it's not clear that two localizations suffice:  en-CA is definitely
different from en-US or en-GB ("tire centre" vs. "tire center" vs. "tyre centre").
I think en-AU also uses "-ise" in some cases where en-GB retains "-ize".

-- 
The Unicode Standard does not encode            John Cowan
idiosyncratic, personal, novel, or private      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
use characters, nor does it encode logos
or graphics.                                    cowan@ccil.org
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Marion Gunn <mgunn@egt.ie>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 08:47:29 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
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This seems to be OT; can it be taken offline?

Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Marion Gunn
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 5:58 AM
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
>
> I'd still like to know the source you used, Debbie, because, as
> presented in your original msg, it looks non-standard. If it is just
> down to presentation, maybe you could also cut and paste the hierarchy
> of Continental Celtic (as you understand it to be) into your next msg,
> to give us some context by which to judge that?
> mg
>
> Scr=EDobh Debbie Garside:
> > Hi Marion
> >
> > The conversation was specifically about Gaulish and I was showing
> just that
> > aspect which happened to include Lepontic as I cut and paste it from
> my
> > list.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Marion Gunn
> >> Sent: 15 May 2008 12:06
> >> To: 'LTRU Working Group'
> >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
> >>
> >>
> >> Where did you get the input you give below for ISO FDIS
> >> 639-6, Debbie?
> >> Here are the usual divisions of Continental Celtic [sic] in use in
> our
> >> universities: Lepontic, Celtiberian, Gaulish, Galatian.
> >> mg
> >>
> >> ltru
> >>
> >> Scr=EDobh Debbie Garside:
> >>
> >>> Within ISO FDIS 639-6 data the hierarchy is as follows:
> >>>
> >>> ineu        wrld    Indo-European
> >>> cltc        ineu    Celtic
> >>> cclc        cltc    Celtic Continental
> >>> lptc        cclc    Lepontic
> >>> glsh        cclc    Gaulish
> >>> xcg         glsh    Cisalpine Gaulish
> >>> xtg         glsh    Transalpine Gaulish
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If anyone has any comments/better ideas now is the time to
> >>>
> >> say so as I
> >>
> >>> am just putting the final touches to the data.
> >>>
> >>> best
> >>>
> >>> Debbie
>
>
> --
>
>
> Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
> 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an
> Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire.
> * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Nicholas Shanks

> > "oeddict" -- I might prefer "oxford" as the tag if there's not
> another
> > linguistic use for that term.
>
> I'd prefer oxford too, it's an extant word which is easier to say and
> thus less prone to typos.

How often to we expect people to be *saying* language tags?

I don't see a concern about typos for something like "oeddict"; these are all, after all, abstract identifiers with limited, if any, mnemonicity. I'm currently working on something requiring me to type out dozens, maybe even a couple of hundred, ISO 639-3 IDs; "oeddict" strikes me as far lower risk wrt typos.

My vote: "oeddict", or something "...dict". The subtag is referring specifically to an orthographic convention as represented in a particular dictionary; it is not a general reference to language/writing variations associated with one or more places known as "Oxford".


Peter

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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> John Cowan


> > I would much rather be able to ship:
> >
> > en (with US spelling), and
> > en_cwealth   (variant identifier TBD)
>
> You should take this to ietf-languages@iana.org, which is the mailing
> list for
> proposing *specific* language tags.

I agree.


Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-15 06.49:
> I think this stresses the encompassed language too much. How about:
>
> ---
> It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to use the Macrolanguage subtag in place of the encompassed language's subtag.
> ---
>   

This seems good. Thank you. (I tried to use "of the language" instead of 
"the language's".)

> > You seem to have in mind a situation where one has
> > specified e.g. 'zh', and where this may become a problem for the user
> > *outside* a language negotiation context? What problem could that be?
> > That can only be a problem if the Macrolanguage is associatied with a
> > language that user does not understand.
>
> Speakers of Mandarin (who speak only Mandarin) have no idea what Cantonese speakers are saying when the speak to one-another. There is no guarantee that encompassed languages are mutually intelligible on any level, even with extra effort. An example that should be familiar to you: Danish is far closer to Norwegian than many of the Chinese or Arabic languages are to one-another.
>   

I made a new proposal below.

> > However, that is a separate
> > issue. Or - then you should say that this can lead to bad language
> > negotiation results. I see no problems outside a negotions context. I.e.
> > the entire computere is Cantonese, then using 'yum' for Cantonese poses
> > no problem.

I meant to say "then using *'zh'* for Cantonese" - sorry. [ I sent a 
message aftewards where I corrected myself. ]

> > So, the problem you describ is not that there is any
> > unclear link from encompassed language to encompassing macrolanguage,
> > but that the link from macrolanguage to encompassing language is a
> > one to many link. (Thus, the problem is language negotiation,
> > really.)
>
>
> There is no prohibition on using 'zh'. There is a recommendation that you should use 'yue' (Cantonese) when you *mean* Cantonese. If you just mean "some Chinese language", you're welcome to use 'zh', even if "some Chinese language", in your specific case, means "Cantonese Chinese". Of course, you may experience problems with the outside world (when your isolated computer dials up Compuserve, they may consider 'zh' to mean Xiang).
>   

Basically, I think we understand each other at this point.

> > I'd like, therefore, to propose this text instead, which makes clearer
> > that the problem of using the macrolanguage tag is because many
> > languages share the same tag:
> >
> >     <t>[...] However, while the identification from any encompassed
> >     language to its encompassing macrolanguage is straight forward, the
>
> I don't think it is. In fact, we say that there is no specific definition here.
>   

I believe the only exceptions to what I say here, are found in that 
"table of exceptions" where you list the encompassed language for which 
the macrolanguage tag SHOULD be used for the dominant language.

The problem is that, except for the exceptions in that table, **all** 
the encompassing languages have a strong link to thier macrolangauge.


> > relationship from a particular macrolanguage to its encompassed
> > languges is always a one to many relationship. Hence the question of 
> > how, or to which degree, languages encompassed by the same 
> > macrolanguage are usefully related to each other, is not covered by 
> > the macrolanguage consept it self.
>
> I don't see what the point of this text is: we already say this.
>   

**Perhaps** you really only wanted  point out that the macrolanguage tag 
is a bit uncertain?

With that in mind, here is a new variant of then entire paragraph, where 
I also included your new text from the top of this letter:

    <t>It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to use the Macrolanguage subtag in place of the encompassed language's subtag.  However, **with some exceptions for the short list of Macrolanguages in the table below,** the Macrolanguage concept **has as consequence that the Macrolanguage subtag allways covers all its encompassing languages**. **And since the consept also does not** define how languages encompassed by the same macrolanguage are related to each other, **its use might could lead users to receive an encompassed language which they may not understand or want**.</t>

      

> > Yes, you said RECOMMENDED. But immediately after you said RECOMMENDED,
> > you said - as I quoted - that if there was a tradition for it, then one
> > "SHOULD" use the macrolangue subtag. And I am interested in the
> > question
> > I raised in that context. How can you not admit that the text opens up
> > the loophole I described?
>
> There is a specific table of languages for which this is the case directly below the text introduced with the text "The pairs of macro and encompassed languages affected by this issue when this document was published were:"
>
> Perhaps we should not have this table. That is something to discuss. The SHOULD text goes with that table.
>   

As is, the point with that paragraph seems not to be to express the 
recommendation but to instead express the exceptions. This could be made 
clearer.

I'd like to propose the following text, to make the link between that 
table and that paragraph clearer, and to have a clearer distinction 
between macrolanguage *name* and macrolanguage *(sub)tag*, and to link 
the first sentence better to the rest of the paragraph. I added **two 
stars** around my insertions:

    <t>When faced with a choice between a macrolanguage **subtag or the subtag of** one of its encompassed languages, as noted above, the encompassed language subtag is RECOMMENDED to form the language tag.  However, **for a few macrolanguages, listed in the table below, there is a particulary strong identification, culturally and historically, between the name of the  macrolanguage and one of its dominant, encompassed languages in particular**. **For these encompassed languages, the choice SHOULD be the macrolanguage subtag** in place of the subtag specific to that encompassed language **except when it** is necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that enclosed dominant language variety.</t>
      

> > I think even when there is a tradition, there should be incentive to
> > instead use the spesific language subtag.
>
> There are five languages where some people feel that isn't true. These are Arabic, Konkani, Malay, Swahili, and Uzbek.
>   

I have the feeling that some would disagree about Arabic?

> > Thus my concrete proposal is that swtich from
> >
> >     [......], it MAY be used in place of the subtag specific [...]
> >
> > instead of
> >
> >     [...], it SHOULD be used in place of the subtag specific [...]
>
> I understand that English is not your first language. I think you mean the opposite of what you say above.
>   

[ I had allready sent a note correcting myself. ]

> I selected SHOULD in the interest of meeting Karen (and other's) desire for firm guidance on language tag choices. For the reason why SHOULD here, see above.
>   

Above, I accepted using the SHOULD. It might be OK with SHOULD, as long 
as it is made clearer what the paragraph relates to (that table).

> > > Finally, you mention language negotiation, I think wrongly. It is not
> > a topic for this document, generally. We have a document about it. It
> > is called RFC 4647 and it is part of BCP 47.
> > >
> >
> > I disagree, because I was not speaking about that issue in its entirety,
> > as you do there. I rather said that you should have language
> > negotiation
> > in mind when you are formulating the text.
>
> I always have language negotiation in mind. However, there are many contexts where language negotiation is not called for. I think this is one of Karen's points. We treat negotiation separately on purpose, but it is never far from (some of our) minds.
>   

OK. Good. However, in some sense, I think Karen also has language 
negotation in mind, since she wants people to be absolutely certain what 
a particular tag means when they se it. If one cannot be certain about 
that, then one must start to "negotiate"/guess what it means.

When it comes to that table of exceptions (where Macrolangauge should be 
used to tag a particular language), I see the issue here as a case were 
we try to maintain an existing clarity.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:11:05 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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> >
> > I don't think it is. In fact, we say that there is no specific
> definition here.
> >
>
> I believe the only exceptions to what I say here, are found in that
> "table of exceptions" where you list the encompassed language for which
> the macrolanguage tag SHOULD be used for the dominant language.
>
> The problem is that, except for the exceptions in that table, **all**
> the encompassing languages have a strong link to thier macrolangauge.

I would not say it that way. All encompassed languages have a strong link to their macrolanguage... or they wouldn't be encompassed by the macrolanguage.

The table lists the macrolanguages for which one particular encompassed language has such a strong link to the "macrolanguage identity" that they are usually considered synonymous (that is, the other encompassed languages are usually considered to be "something else than" the default language).

For example, the individual language 'swh' (Swahili) is apparently very closely identified with the macrolanguage 'sw' (also called Swahili). The other encompassed language 'swc' (Congo Swahili) is somehow separate. Thus, in that particular case, it is appropriate to consider 'sw' to mean 'swh' and distinguish 'swc' consistently from it. That's, at least, what the exception table is trying to express.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this idea. I just didn't see a reason to remove it from this proposal, since the working group had previously agreed on this list. I don't have enough personal experience with Swahili, for example, to know how well my paragraph above actually describes the situation with that language. People who do suggested the list.

> >
> > I don't see what the point of this text is: we already say this.
> >
>
> **Perhaps** you really only wanted  point out that the macrolanguage
> tag is a bit uncertain?
>
> With that in mind, here is a new variant of then entire paragraph,
> where
> I also included your new text from the top of this letter:
>
>     <t>It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to use the
> Macrolanguage subtag in place of the encompassed language's subtag.
> However, **with some exceptions for the short list of Macrolanguages in
> the table below,** the Macrolanguage concept **has as consequence that
> the Macrolanguage subtag allways covers all its encompassing
> languages**. **And since the consept also does not** define how
> languages encompassed by the same macrolanguage are related to each
> other, **its use might could lead users to receive an encompassed
> language which they may not understand or want**.</t>

Hm... this looks to be a useful path down which to travel. I think the text about the short list of exception is probably too strong. Perhaps:

--
Is it always permitted, and sometimes useful, to use the Macrolanguage subtag
in place of the encompassed language's subtag. Each Macrolanguage's subtag,
by definition, always covers all of its encompassed languages. However,
the Macrolanguage concept does not define what the relationship is
between the Macrolanguage and its encompassed language's is nor does it define
how each of the encompassed languages are related to each other. In fact,
this relationship varies, and, with the exception of a few languages cited
below (see table xx), users cannot assume that the macrolanguage subtag means
any particular encompassed language nor that any given pair of encompassed
languages are mutually intelligible or otherwise interchangeable.
--

>
> I'd like to propose the following text, to make the link between that
> table and that paragraph clearer, and to have a clearer distinction
> between macrolanguage *name* and macrolanguage *(sub)tag*, and to link

The name (description) of any given language should not be confused with the meaning of the subtag.

> the first sentence better to the rest of the paragraph. I added **two
> stars** around my insertions:
>
>     <t>When faced with a choice between a macrolanguage **subtag or the
> subtag of** one of its encompassed languages, as noted above, the

This is a good clarification. Inserted.

> encompassed language subtag is RECOMMENDED to form the language tag.
> However, **for a few macrolanguages, listed in the table below, there
> is a particulary strong identification, culturally and historically,
> between the name of the  macrolanguage and one of its dominant,
> encompassed languages in particular**. **For these encompassed
> languages, the choice SHOULD be the macrolanguage subtag** in place of
> the subtag specific to that encompassed language **except when it** is
> necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that
> enclosed dominant language variety.</t>

These are also good clarification, provided we then proceed to remove the stub of table introduction I quoted (with editing for English usage).

Best Regards,

Addison


Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.



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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Commonwealth English orthography
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Nicholas Shanks 2008-05-15 16.58:
> Translations on the Mac OS [...]
> en (with US spellings)
> en_GB (with commonwealth spellings)
> en_everything_else symlinked to en_GB or duplicated (if symlinks don't 
> work, haven't tested this yet) [...]

As I have stated on list and outside: The problem you take up here, is 
very similar to the Macrolanguage problem.

The problem occurs because you - and Apple - have chosen to use the most 
generic tag 'en' for 'English US', instead of using 'en_US', as you 
should have done.

This behaviour illustrates what happens when one uses the most generic 
tag - the Macrolangauge tag - for the dominant encompassing language, 
instead of using the spesific, encompassing language tag: It makes it 
very difficult and cumbersome to perform language negotiation.
-- 
regards,
leif halvard silli
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Subject: [Ltru] Section 4.1.1: Swahili, Konkani, Uzbek, Malay
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Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> For example, the individual language 'swh' (Swahili) is apparently
> very closely identified with the macrolanguage 'sw' (also called
> Swahili). The other encompassed language 'swc' (Congo Swahili) is
> somehow separate. Thus, in that particular case, it is appropriate to
> consider 'sw' to mean 'swh' and distinguish 'swc' consistently from
> it. That's, at least, what the exception table is trying to express.

This is not analogous to diglossic languages like Chinese or Arabic.
Historically, all of Swahili has been tagged "sw", but Ethnologue
considers the varieties spoken in the Congo to be different enough to be
a separate language.  So "sw" means "Swahili", "swh" means "Swahili,
excluding Congolese varieties", and "swc" means "Congo Swahili".
Changing all the "sw" content that is *not* Congolese (i.e. almost all
of it) to be "swh" is probably not worth doing.  The same explanation
applies to Konkani and Uzbek.

Malay is more complicated, both because there are a bunch of encompassed
languages, but also because in February 2008 'mly' became a retired
code element: it has been split into code elements for "Standard Malay",
"Malay (individual language)", and two other languages.  The term "Malay
(individual language)", code element 'zlm', is now used as a cover term
for local varieties of Malay that are distinct from Standard Malay but
not distinct enough to be called separate languages, as the other members
of the Malay macrolanguage are.

Addison, please change "Malay (single language) 'mly'" to "Standard Malay
'zsm'.  Also change "single language" to "individual language" elsewhere.

-- 
You escaped them by the will-death              John Cowan
and the Way of the Black Wheel.                 cowan@ccil.org
I could not.  --Great-Souled Sam                http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 15 11:57:13 2008
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Subject: [Ltru] Section 4.1.1: Arabic
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I suggest that the following paragraph be added after the discussion
of Chinese:

	The Arabic situation is essentially identical to the Chinese
	situation, except that while almost all written Arabic is Standard
	Arabic, most spoken Arabic is in one of the other encompassed
	Arabic languages.  Consequently, "ar" should be avoided for
	tagging spoken varieties.

If this is adopted, remove Arabic from Fig. 8.

-- 
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:59:14 -0700
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>
> Addison, please change "Malay (single language) 'mly'" to "Standard
> Malay
> 'zsm'.  Also change "single language" to "individual language"
> elsewhere.

Thanks for this. I noticed it this morning when writing the example (I changed my example as a result).

Addison

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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:59:14 -0700
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>
> Addison, please change "Malay (single language) 'mly'" to "Standard
> Malay
> 'zsm'.  Also change "single language" to "individual language"
> elsewhere.

Thanks for this. I noticed it this morning when writing the example (I changed my example as a result).

Addison

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To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Subject: [Ltru] Section 4.1.1: Swahili, Konkani, Uzbek, Malay
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Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> For example, the individual language 'swh' (Swahili) is apparently
> very closely identified with the macrolanguage 'sw' (also called
> Swahili). The other encompassed language 'swc' (Congo Swahili) is
> somehow separate. Thus, in that particular case, it is appropriate to
> consider 'sw' to mean 'swh' and distinguish 'swc' consistently from
> it. That's, at least, what the exception table is trying to express.

This is not analogous to diglossic languages like Chinese or Arabic.
Historically, all of Swahili has been tagged "sw", but Ethnologue
considers the varieties spoken in the Congo to be different enough to be
a separate language.  So "sw" means "Swahili", "swh" means "Swahili,
excluding Congolese varieties", and "swc" means "Congo Swahili".
Changing all the "sw" content that is *not* Congolese (i.e. almost all
of it) to be "swh" is probably not worth doing.  The same explanation
applies to Konkani and Uzbek.

Malay is more complicated, both because there are a bunch of encompassed
languages, but also because in February 2008 'mly' became a retired
code element: it has been split into code elements for "Standard Malay",
"Malay (individual language)", and two other languages.  The term "Malay
(individual language)", code element 'zlm', is now used as a cover term
for local varieties of Malay that are distinct from Standard Malay but
not distinct enough to be called separate languages, as the other members
of the Malay macrolanguage are.

Addison, please change "Malay (single language) 'mly'" to "Standard Malay
'zsm'.  Also change "single language" to "individual language" elsewhere.

-- 
You escaped them by the will-death              John Cowan
and the Way of the Black Wheel.                 cowan@ccil.org
I could not.  --Great-Souled Sam                http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-15 20.11:
> > The problem is that, except for the exceptions in that table, **all**
> > the encompassing languages have a strong link to thier macrolangauge.
>
> I would not say it that way. All encompassed languages have a strong link to their macrolanguage... or they wouldn't be encompassed by the macrolanguage.
>   

Yes - agree.

> The table lists the macrolanguages for which one particular encompassed language has such a strong link to the "macrolanguage identity" that they are usually considered synonymous (that is, the other encompassed languages are usually considered to be "something else than" the default language). [...]
>   

Yes. As I was reading your message and trying to understannd the issue 
etc, it occurred to me that that the ownership of the "macrolanguage 
identity", had nothing to do with predominance in the computer industry 
field or something like that, but spoke about something outside that 
field - in "normal" life.

> > > I don't see what the point of this text is: we already say this.
> >
> > **Perhaps** you really only wanted  point out that the macrolanguage
> > tag is a bit uncertain?
> >
> > With that in mind, here is a new variant of then entire paragraph, 
> > where I also included your new text from the top of this letter:
> >
> >     <t>It is always permitted, and sometimes useful, to use the
> > Macrolanguage subtag in place of the encompassed language's subtag.
> > However, **with some exceptions for the short list of Macrolanguages in
> > the table below,** the Macrolanguage concept **has as consequence that
> > the Macrolanguage subtag allways covers all its encompassing
> > languages**. **And since the consept also does not** define how
> > languages encompassed by the same macrolanguage are related to each
> > other, **its use might could lead users to receive an encompassed
> > language which they may not understand or want**.</t>
>
> Hm... this looks to be a useful path down which to travel. I think the text about the short list of exception is probably too strong. Perhaps:
>
> --
> Is it always permitted, and sometimes useful, to use the Macrolanguage subtag
> in place of the encompassed language's subtag. Each Macrolanguage's subtag,
> by definition, always covers all of its encompassed languages. However,
> the Macrolanguage concept does not define what the relationship is
> between the Macrolanguage and its encompassed language's 

Was that supposed to be a plural of 'encompassed language'? I think it 
would be good, if it was. :-)

> is nor does it define
> how each of the encompassed languages are related to each other. In fact,
> this relationship varies, and, with the exception of a few languages cited
> below (see table xx), users cannot assume that the macrolanguage subtag means
> any particular encompassed language nor that any given pair of encompassed
> languages are mutually intelligible or otherwise interchangeable.
> --
>   

This is much clearer than before, I think. Thank you!

> > I'd like to propose the following text, to make the link between that
> > table and that paragraph clearer, and to have a clearer distinction
> > between macrolanguage *name* and macrolanguage *(sub)tag*, and to link
>
> The name (description) of any given language should not be confused with the meaning of the subtag.
>   

It can be difficult to find the right way to say it ...

> > the first sentence better to the rest of the paragraph. I added **two
> > stars** around my insertions:
> >
> >     <t>When faced with a choice between a macrolanguage **subtag or the
> > subtag of** one of its encompassed languages, as noted above, the
>
> This is a good clarification. Inserted.
>
> > encompassed language subtag is RECOMMENDED to form the language tag.
> > However, **for a few macrolanguages, listed in the table below, there
> > is a particulary strong identification, culturally and historically,
> > between the name of the  macrolanguage and one of its dominant,
> > encompassed languages in particular**. **For these encompassed
> > languages, the choice SHOULD be the macrolanguage subtag** in place of
> > the subtag specific to that encompassed language **except when it** is
> > necessary to clearly distinguish the macrolanguage as a whole from that
> > enclosed dominant language variety.</t>
>
> These are also good clarification, provided we then proceed to remove the stub of table introduction I quoted (with editing for English usage).
>   

Good to hear. After all my fuzz. :-)

I guess we will "meditate" over the text and the solutions in general 
till over the weekend, as the co-chair said. At least, I will try do so 
myself. Have a good weekend!

Best regards,
Leif Halvard Silli
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Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:10:52 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Leif Halvard Silli" <lhs@malform.no>
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Perhaps the situation is being misunderstood.

In lookup, you have to return *something* when someone asks for "en" (or
"de", or "no", or "zh", or "zh-Hant", etc.) Normally, this should be the
form that is most likely to be what the user understands. For "en", the most
widely used form is the same as "en-US"; for "de" it is "de-DE", and so on.
This may change over time, for English at some time in the past it would
have been "en-GB", and who knows, it may be "en-IN" at some point in the
future.

Mark

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no> wrote:

> Nicholas Shanks 2008-05-15 16.58:
> > Translations on the Mac OS [...]
> > en (with US spellings)
> > en_GB (with commonwealth spellings)
> > en_everything_else symlinked to en_GB or duplicated (if symlinks don't
> > work, haven't tested this yet) [...]
>
> As I have stated on list and outside: The problem you take up here, is
> very similar to the Macrolanguage problem.
>
> The problem occurs because you - and Apple - have chosen to use the most
> generic tag 'en' for 'English US', instead of using 'en_US', as you
> should have done.
>
> This behaviour illustrates what happens when one uses the most generic
> tag - the Macrolangauge tag - for the dominant encompassing language,
> instead of using the spesific, encompassing language tag: It makes it
> very difficult and cumbersome to perform language negotiation.
> --
> regards,
> leif halvard silli
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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Perhaps the situation is being misunderstood.<br><br>In lookup, you have to return *something* when someone asks for &quot;en&quot; (or &quot;de&quot;, or &quot;no&quot;, or &quot;zh&quot;, or &quot;zh-Hant&quot;, etc.) Normally, this should be the form that is most likely to be what the user understands. For &quot;en&quot;, the most widely used form is the same as &quot;en-US&quot;; for &quot;de&quot; it is &quot;de-DE&quot;, and so on. This may change over time, for English at some time in the past it would have been &quot;en-GB&quot;, and who knows, it may be &quot;en-IN&quot; at some point in the future.<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Leif Halvard Silli &lt;<a href="mailto:lhs@malform.no">lhs@malform.no</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Nicholas Shanks 2008-05-15 16.58:<br>
&gt; Translations on the Mac OS [...]<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; en (with US spellings)<br>
&gt; en_GB (with commonwealth spellings)<br>
&gt; en_everything_else symlinked to en_GB or duplicated (if symlinks don&#39;t<br>
</div>&gt; work, haven&#39;t tested this yet) [...]<br>
<br>
As I have stated on list and outside: The problem you take up here, is<br>
very similar to the Macrolanguage problem.<br>
<br>
The problem occurs because you - and Apple - have chosen to use the most<br>
generic tag &#39;en&#39; for &#39;English US&#39;, instead of using &#39;en_US&#39;, as you<br>
should have done.<br>
<br>
This behaviour illustrates what happens when one uses the most generic<br>
tag - the Macrolangauge tag - for the dominant encompassing language,<br>
instead of using the spesific, encompassing language tag: It makes it<br>
very difficult and cumbersome to perform language negotiation.<br>
--<br>
regards,<br>
<font color="#888888">leif halvard silli<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:58:21 -0700
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Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:00:41 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Shawn Steele" <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Perhaps it does, but I don't see why it would need to. Could you explain a
bit more?

Mark

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>  Sounds reasonable to me, but it seems like RFC4647 would need updated to
> handle the 2nd bullet.
>
>
>
> -          Shawn
>
>
>
> *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:29 AM
> *To:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
>
>
>
> Peter Constable and I were at the Unicode Technical Committee meeting, and
> had a chance to talk about macrolanguages. One of the key points is to
> provide implementers with enough guidance as to what they should do, while
> not precluding reasonable alternatives. Here's what we were thinking about
> (not in formal language, but the points we wanted to make).
>
> ===
>
> Formally, a macrolanguage identifier could be used to tag or look up
> content in any encompassed language; alternately, specific,
> individual-language identifiers could be used to tag or look up content in
> those languages. In consideration of these alternatives, the following
> provides guidance for how to maintain backwards compatibility while giving
> the ability to clearly tag and lookup content.
>
> 1. Implementations generally should tag and/or lookup content with the
> specific language where possible (this is the general recommendation with
> language tags). In the case of macrolanguages, this means that Cantonese
> should be tagged and looked up with "yue", Hakka with "hak", Tajiki Arabic
> with "abh", Plains Cree with "crk", and so on.
>
> 2. An exception to this general recommendation may apply in the case of
> macrolanguages with predominant forms, listed in Table 8. For backwards
> compatibility in those cases:
>
>    - an implementation could tag and/or lookup content in the predominant
>    language either with the macrolanguage or the encompassed language. (eg
>    either "ar" or "arb" for Standard Arabic).
>    - an implementation could make a distinction between these in lookup,
>    or could return the same content. That is, lookup for "zh-SG" and "cmn-SG"
>    may return the same content, or may return different content if the
>    implementation needs to make a distinction for some purpose.
>
>
>    - where content written in an encompassed language is also
>    understandable in the predominant language (that being a distinct language
>    encompassed by the same macrolanguage), the content could also be tagged
>    with the macrolanguage identifier. Thus if a Cantonese passage is
>    understandable if read as Mandarin, it could also be tagged with "zh", or
>    where a Tajiki Arabic passage is also understandable in Standard Arabic it
>    could be tagged with "ar".
>
> 3. Another exception to this general recommendation applies in the case of
> applications that have limitations that exclude the identifiers for
> encompassed, individual languages of a macrolanguage. For example, some
> content cataloguing systems limit language identifiers to those in ISO
> 639-2; as a result, they may support a macrolanguage identifier but not the
> identifiers for the encompassed languages of that macrolanguage.
>
> Mark and Peter
>
> --
> Mark
>



-- 
Mark

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Perhaps it does, but I don&#39;t see why it would need to. Could you explain a bit more?<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Shawn Steele &lt;<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">








<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Sounds reasonable to me, but it seems like RFC4647 would need
updated to handle the 2<sup>nd</sup> bullet.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>-<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Shawn</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark
Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage</span></p>

</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>Peter Constable and I were at the Unicode Technical
Committee meeting, and had a chance to talk about macrolanguages. One of the
key points is to provide implementers with enough guidance as to what they
should do, while not precluding reasonable alternatives. Here&#39;s what we were
thinking about (not in formal language, but the points we wanted to make).<br>
<br>
===<br>
<br>
Formally, a macrolanguage identifier could be used to tag or look up content in
any encompassed language; alternately, specific, individual-language
identifiers could be used to tag or look up content in those languages. In
consideration of these alternatives, the following provides guidance for how to
maintain backwards compatibility while giving the ability to clearly tag and
lookup content.<br>
<br>
1. Implementations generally should tag and/or lookup content with the specific
language where possible (this is the general recommendation with language
tags). In the case of macrolanguages, this means that Cantonese should be
tagged and looked up with &quot;yue&quot;, Hakka with &quot;hak&quot;, Tajiki
Arabic with &quot;abh&quot;, Plains Cree with &quot;crk&quot;, and so on.<br>
<br>
2. An exception to this general recommendation&nbsp;may apply in the case of
macrolanguages with predominant forms, listed in Table 8. For backwards
compatibility in those cases:<span style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 50%; font-size: 10pt; color: black; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> </span></p>


<div>

<div>

<ul type="disc">
 <li style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 50%; color: black; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">an implementation could tag and/or lookup content in the
     predominant language either with the macrolanguage or the encompassed
     language. (eg either &quot;ar&quot; or &quot;arb&quot; for Standard
     Arabic).</span></li>
 <li style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 50%; color: black; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">an implementation could make a distinction between these in
     lookup, or could return the same content. That is, lookup for
     &quot;zh-SG&quot; and &quot;cmn-SG&quot; may return the same content, or
     may return different content if the implementation needs to make a
     distinction for some purpose.</span></li>
</ul>

</div>

</div>

<ul type="disc">
 <li style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 50%; color: black; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">where content written in&nbsp;an encompassed language is also
     understandable in the predominant language (that being a distinct language
     encompassed by the same macrolanguage), the content could also be tagged
     with the macrolanguage identifier. Thus if a Cantonese passage is
     understandable if read as Mandarin, it could also be tagged with
     &quot;zh&quot;, or where a Tajiki Arabic passage is also understandable in
     Standard Arabic it could be tagged with &quot;ar&quot;.</span></li>
</ul>

<p>3. Another exception to this general recommendation applies
in the case of applications that have limitations that exclude the identifiers
for encompassed, individual languages of a macrolanguage. For example, some
content cataloguing systems limit language identifiers to those in ISO 639-2;
as a result, they may support a macrolanguage identifier but not the
identifiers for the encompassed languages of that macrolanguage.<br>
<br>
Mark and Peter<br>
<br>
--<br>
Mark </p>

</div></div></div>

</div>


</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:18:49 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:26:23 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:31:28 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Shawn Steele" <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Ah, now I understand. We'd decided some time ago to try to put the
discussion of the effects of macro/micro languages into 4646 rather than
4647, just to keep from having to open it up.

Mark

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>  Its not clear to me where 4647 says that zh-SG and cmn-SG may be treated
> as equal (or may return different content).  On the contrary, it seems that
> applications needn't have any additional information.
>
>
>
> "Applications, protocols, and specifications are not required to validate
> or understand any of the semantics of the language tags or ranges or of the
> subtags in them"
>
>
>
> The canonicalizing text also discusses various forms, including zh-CN vs
> zh-Hans, but doesn't mention this cmn/zh variant.  It also mentions looking
> in the registry to recognize & canonicalize grandfathered tags, but neither
> zh nor cmn are grandfathered.
>
>
>
> It could be done with lists, but the idea is that a list isn't necessary
> for correct filtering/matching/lookup.  It also mentioned the
> remove-from-right behavior, but not its implications WRT zh/cmn.
>
>
>
> I may have overlooked where this is covered in 4647, but it seems to me
> like zh/cmn type matching isn't already covered by 4647.  Obviously it
> should be an optional thing, not a must thing, but I don't seem language
> permitting this sort of matching.
>
>
>
> - Shawn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 15, 2008 2:01 PM
> *To:* Shawn Steele
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
>
>
>
> Perhaps it does, but I don't see why it would need to. Could you explain a
> bit more?
>
> Mark
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Sounds reasonable to me, but it seems like RFC4647 would need updated to
> handle the 2nd bullet.
>
>
>
> -          Shawn
>
>
>
> *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:29 AM
> *To:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
>
>
>
> Peter Constable and I were at the Unicode Technical Committee meeting, and
> had a chance to talk about macrolanguages. One of the key points is to
> provide implementers with enough guidance as to what they should do, while
> not precluding reasonable alternatives. Here's what we were thinking about
> (not in formal language, but the points we wanted to make).
>
> ===
>
> Formally, a macrolanguage identifier could be used to tag or look up
> content in any encompassed language; alternately, specific,
> individual-language identifiers could be used to tag or look up content in
> those languages. In consideration of these alternatives, the following
> provides guidance for how to maintain backwards compatibility while giving
> the ability to clearly tag and lookup content.
>
> 1. Implementations generally should tag and/or lookup content with the
> specific language where possible (this is the general recommendation with
> language tags). In the case of macrolanguages, this means that Cantonese
> should be tagged and looked up with "yue", Hakka with "hak", Tajiki Arabic
> with "abh", Plains Cree with "crk", and so on.
>
> 2. An exception to this general recommendation may apply in the case of
> macrolanguages with predominant forms, listed in Table 8. For backwards
> compatibility in those cases:
>
>    - an implementation could tag and/or lookup content in the predominant
>    language either with the macrolanguage or the encompassed language. (eg
>    either "ar" or "arb" for Standard Arabic).
>    - an implementation could make a distinction between these in lookup,
>    or could return the same content. That is, lookup for "zh-SG" and "cmn-SG"
>    may return the same content, or may return different content if the
>    implementation needs to make a distinction for some purpose.
>
>
>    - where content written in an encompassed language is also
>    understandable in the predominant language (that being a distinct language
>    encompassed by the same macrolanguage), the content could also be tagged
>    with the macrolanguage identifier. Thus if a Cantonese passage is
>    understandable if read as Mandarin, it could also be tagged with "zh", or
>    where a Tajiki Arabic passage is also understandable in Standard Arabic it
>    could be tagged with "ar".
>
> 3. Another exception to this general recommendation applies in the case of
> applications that have limitations that exclude the identifiers for
> encompassed, individual languages of a macrolanguage. For example, some
> content cataloguing systems limit language identifiers to those in ISO
> 639-2; as a result, they may support a macrolanguage identifier but not the
> identifiers for the encompassed languages of that macrolanguage.
>
> Mark and Peter
>
> --
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark
>



-- 
Mark

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Ah, now I understand. We&#39;d decided some time ago to try to put the discussion of the effects of macro/micro languages into 4646 rather than 4647, just to keep from having to open it up.<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Shawn Steele &lt;<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">









<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Its not clear to me where 4647 says that zh-SG and cmn-SG may be
treated as equal (or may return different content).&nbsp; On the contrary, it seems
that applications needn't have any additional information.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">"Applications, protocols, and specifications are not required to
validate or understand any of the semantics of the language tags or ranges or
of the subtags in them"</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The canonicalizing text also discusses various forms, including
zh-CN vs zh-Hans, but doesn't mention this cmn/zh variant.&nbsp; It also mentions looking
in the registry to recognize &amp; canonicalize grandfathered tags, but neither
zh nor cmn are grandfathered.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It could be done with lists, but the idea is that a list isn't
necessary for correct filtering/matching/lookup.&nbsp; It also mentioned the
remove-from-right behavior, but not its implications WRT zh/cmn.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I may have overlooked where this is covered in 4647, but it
seems to me like zh/cmn type matching isn't already covered by 4647.&nbsp; Obviously
it should be an optional thing, not a must thing, but I don't seem language
permitting this sort of matching.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">- Shawn</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 15, 2008 2:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shawn Steele<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage</span></p>

</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Perhaps it does, but I don&#39;t
see why it would need to. Could you explain a bit more?<br>
<br>
Mark</p>

<div>

<p>On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Shawn Steele &lt;<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com" target="_blank">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</p>

<div>

<div>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Sounds reasonable to me, but it
seems like RFC4647 would need updated to handle the 2<sup>nd</sup> bullet.</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Shawn</span></p>

<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage</span></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>Peter Constable and I were at the Unicode Technical Committee meeting, and
had a chance to talk about macrolanguages. One of the key points is to provide
implementers with enough guidance as to what they should do, while not
precluding reasonable alternatives. Here&#39;s what we were thinking about (not in
formal language, but the points we wanted to make).<br>
<br>
===<br>
<br>
Formally, a macrolanguage identifier could be used to tag or look up content in
any encompassed language; alternately, specific, individual-language
identifiers could be used to tag or look up content in those languages. In
consideration of these alternatives, the following provides guidance for how to
maintain backwards compatibility while giving the ability to clearly tag and
lookup content.<br>
<br>
1. Implementations generally should tag and/or lookup content with the specific
language where possible (this is the general recommendation with language
tags). In the case of macrolanguages, this means that Cantonese should be tagged
and looked up with &quot;yue&quot;, Hakka with &quot;hak&quot;, Tajiki Arabic
with &quot;abh&quot;, Plains Cree with &quot;crk&quot;, and so on.<br>
<br>
2. An exception to this general recommendation&nbsp;may apply in the case of
macrolanguages with predominant forms, listed in Table 8. For backwards compatibility
in those cases:<span style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 50%; font-size: 10pt; color: black; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> </span></p>


<div>

<div>

<ul type="disc">
 <li style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 50%; color: black; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">an implementation could tag and/or
     lookup content in the predominant language either with the macrolanguage
     or the encompassed language. (eg either &quot;ar&quot; or &quot;arb&quot;
     for Standard Arabic).</span></li>
 <li style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 50%; color: black; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">an implementation could make a
     distinction between these in lookup, or could return the same content.
     That is, lookup for &quot;zh-SG&quot; and &quot;cmn-SG&quot; may return
     the same content, or may return different content if the implementation
     needs to make a distinction for some purpose.</span></li>
</ul>

</div>

</div>

<ul type="disc">
 <li style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 50%; color: black; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">where content written in&nbsp;an
     encompassed language is also understandable in the predominant language
     (that being a distinct language encompassed by the same macrolanguage),
     the content could also be tagged with the macrolanguage identifier. Thus
     if a Cantonese passage is understandable if read as Mandarin, it could
     also be tagged with &quot;zh&quot;, or where a Tajiki Arabic passage is
     also understandable in Standard Arabic it could be tagged with
     &quot;ar&quot;.</span></li>
</ul>

<p>3. Another exception to this general recommendation applies in the case of
applications that have limitations that exclude the identifiers for
encompassed, individual languages of a macrolanguage. For example, some content
cataloguing systems limit language identifiers to those in ISO 639-2; as a
result, they may support a macrolanguage identifier but not the identifiers for
the encompassed languages of that macrolanguage.<br>
<br>
Mark and Peter<br>
<br>
--<br>
Mark </p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Mark </p>

</div></div></div>

</div>


</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:39:47 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Leif Halvard Silli" <lhs@malform.no>
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By the way, a side note: we have a *very* preliminary results of doing
language detection for written Cantonese, and over a sample of the web
(which includes HTML, PDF, ...) we're seeing the number of Cantonese being
about 0.0014% of the number of Mandarin documents. I want to emphasize that
this is preliminary.

Mark

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
wrote:

> Perhaps the situation is being misunderstood.
>
> In lookup, you have to return *something* when someone asks for "en" (or
> "de", or "no", or "zh", or "zh-Hant", etc.) Normally, this should be the
> form that is most likely to be what the user understands. For "en", the most
> widely used form is the same as "en-US"; for "de" it is "de-DE", and so on.
> This may change over time, for English at some time in the past it would
> have been "en-GB", and who knows, it may be "en-IN" at some point in the
> future.
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
> wrote:
>
>> Nicholas Shanks 2008-05-15 16.58:
>> > Translations on the Mac OS [...]
>> > en (with US spellings)
>> > en_GB (with commonwealth spellings)
>> > en_everything_else symlinked to en_GB or duplicated (if symlinks don't
>> > work, haven't tested this yet) [...]
>>
>> As I have stated on list and outside: The problem you take up here, is
>> very similar to the Macrolanguage problem.
>>
>> The problem occurs because you - and Apple - have chosen to use the most
>> generic tag 'en' for 'English US', instead of using 'en_US', as you
>> should have done.
>>
>> This behaviour illustrates what happens when one uses the most generic
>> tag - the Macrolangauge tag - for the dominant encompassing language,
>> instead of using the spesific, encompassing language tag: It makes it
>> very difficult and cumbersome to perform language negotiation.
>> --
>> regards,
>> leif halvard silli
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark




-- 
Mark

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By the way, a side note: we have a *very* preliminary results of doing language detection for written Cantonese, and over a sample of the web (which includes HTML, PDF, ...) we&#39;re seeing the number of Cantonese being about 0.0014% of the number of Mandarin documents. I want to emphasize that this is preliminary.<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mark Davis &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Perhaps the situation is being misunderstood.<br><br>In lookup, you have to return *something* when someone asks for &quot;en&quot; (or &quot;de&quot;, or &quot;no&quot;, or &quot;zh&quot;, or &quot;zh-Hant&quot;, etc.) Normally, this should be the form that is most likely to be what the user understands. For &quot;en&quot;, the most widely used form is the same as &quot;en-US&quot;; for &quot;de&quot; it is &quot;de-DE&quot;, and so on. This may change over time, for English at some time in the past it would have been &quot;en-GB&quot;, and who knows, it may be &quot;en-IN&quot; at some point in the future.<br>

<br>Mark<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Leif Halvard Silli &lt;<a href="mailto:lhs@malform.no" target="_blank">lhs@malform.no</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

Nicholas Shanks 2008-05-15 16.58:<br>
&gt; Translations on the Mac OS [...]<br>
<div>&gt; en (with US spellings)<br>
&gt; en_GB (with commonwealth spellings)<br>
&gt; en_everything_else symlinked to en_GB or duplicated (if symlinks don&#39;t<br>
</div>&gt; work, haven&#39;t tested this yet) [...]<br>
<br>
As I have stated on list and outside: The problem you take up here, is<br>
very similar to the Macrolanguage problem.<br>
<br>
The problem occurs because you - and Apple - have chosen to use the most<br>
generic tag &#39;en&#39; for &#39;English US&#39;, instead of using &#39;en_US&#39;, as you<br>
should have done.<br>
<br>
This behaviour illustrates what happens when one uses the most generic<br>
tag - the Macrolangauge tag - for the dominant encompassing language,<br>
instead of using the spesific, encompassing language tag: It makes it<br>
very difficult and cumbersome to perform language negotiation.<br>
--<br>
regards,<br>
<font color="#888888">leif halvard silli<br>
</font><div><div></div><div>_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div>-- <br><font color="#888888">Mark
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:50:18 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 19:55:10 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> Before we get too far along with 'oeddict', can someone explain to me 
> what each of the two D's stands for?

See http://www.nanday.com/rap/

-- 
Not to perambulate                 John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
    the corridors                  http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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    in the boots of ascension.       --Sign in Austrian ski-resort hotel
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 15 21:29:59 2008
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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3.1.9 has:

"The Macrolanguage field contains a primary language subtag that encompasse=
s this subtag's language."

Now, call me a stickler, but *subtags* don't encompass anything. Suggested =
revision:

"The Macrolanguage field contains a primary language subtag for an ISO 639 =
macrolanguage that encompasses this subtag's language."


Peter

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<p class=3DMsoNormal>3.1.9 has: <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;The Macrolanguage field contains a primary lang=
uage
subtag that encompasses this subtag's language.&#8221; <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Now, call me a stickler, but *<b>subtags</b>* don&#821=
7;t
encompass anything. Suggested revision: <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;The Macrolanguage field contains a primary lang=
uage
subtag for an ISO 639 macrolanguage that encompasses this subtag's language=
.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Peter<o:p></o:p></p>

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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+1

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: 16 May 2008 02:40
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
>
> Mark Davis <mark dot davis at icu dash project dot org> wrote:
>
> > - where content written in an encompassed language is also
> > understandable in the predominant language (that being a distinct
> > language encompassed by the same macrolanguage), the content could
> > also be tagged with the macrolanguage identifier. Thus if a
> Cantonese
> > passage is understandable if read as Mandarin, it could
> also be tagged
> > with "zh", or where a Tajiki Arabic passage is also
> understandable in
> > Standard Arabic it could be tagged with "ar".
>
> Cantonese "is a" Chinese, it falls under the Chinese
> macrolanguage umbrella, and therefore it could legitimately
> be tagged with "zh"
> whether or not it is understandable if read as Mandarin.
>
> Unfortunately, this wording takes us back to the mindset that
> Chinese = Mandarin = "zh", and other Chinese languages are
> not "zh".  I thought we had just agreed not to do that.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>




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Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 13:04:48 +0100
From: Marion Gunn <mgunn@egt.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Preferred Values for Irregular Tags
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Thanks, Debbie (that answers my question).
mg


Scr=EDobh Debbie Garside:
> ... However, to answer your question, the source is the
> draft data from ISO FDIS 639-6 which has been compiled by GeoLang Ltd... =



-- =



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27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an
Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire.
* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri May 16 05:19:12 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: 72nd IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling - REMINDER
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That makes sense.
mg

Scr=EDobh Debbie Garside:
> Hi Marion
>
> The date is already decided as it is designed to coincide with the 72nd I=
ETF
> Meeting in Dublin.


-- =



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27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an
Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire.
* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Doug Ewell


> > - where content written in an encompassed language is also
> > understandable in the predominant language (that being a distinct
> > language encompassed by the same macrolanguage), the content could
> > also be tagged with the macrolanguage identifier. Thus if a Cantonese
> > passage is understandable if read as Mandarin, it could also be
> tagged
> > with "zh", or where a Tajiki Arabic passage is also understandable in
> > Standard Arabic it could be tagged with "ar".
>
> Cantonese "is a" Chinese, it falls under the Chinese macrolanguage
> umbrella, and therefore it could legitimately be tagged with "zh"
> whether or not it is understandable if read as Mandarin.
>
> Unfortunately, this wording takes us back to the mindset that Chinese =
> Mandarin = "zh", and other Chinese languages are not "zh".  I thought
> we
> had just agreed not to do that.

Well, you demonstrate that it evidently reads that way, though it's not quite saying that: this is a exception to the general recommendation. In general, we would not recommend that people tag Cantonese content as "zh", although they certainly can. The situation in which it's *most* reasonable to tag Cantonese content "zh" is when it is understandable to those that read Mandarin -- meaning it's understandable by the vast majority.

Do you only have a critique? Did you not find the overall text useful enough to even consider suggestions for how to improve? Overall, was it of no value?


Peter
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>
> Well, you demonstrate that it evidently reads that way, though it's not
> quite saying that: this is a exception to the general recommendation.
> In general, we would not recommend that people tag Cantonese content as
> "zh", although they certainly can. The situation in which it's *most*
> reasonable to tag Cantonese content "zh" is when it is understandable
> to those that read Mandarin -- meaning it's understandable by the vast
> majority.

So we have a small impasse, indicative of the larger problem here: do we or do we not recommend against the use of 'zh' to tag Mandarin Chinese? It isn't the tagging of Cantonese that is the controversy. It is whether 'zh' is equated with Mandarin.

>
> Do you only have a critique? Did you not find the overall text useful
> enough to even consider suggestions for how to improve? Overall, was it
> of no value?

It's not of "no value", but it is different from "option #2" and it isn't a commentary on the currently developing draft. I have pondered how to incorporate these divergent views carefully and suggest that the section on Chinese be expanded and edited as follows:

--
<t>The family of languages encompassed by the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') provides a useful illustration of this. Historically many different kinds of content have been tagged with variations of the 'zh' subtag, with application specific meaning being associated with region codes in particular. This is because historically only the macrolanguage subtag was available for forming language tags. However, these languages are, in the main, not mutually intelligible when spoken. Written forms of these languages also show wide variation in form and usage and many of these languages are written in various contexts. However, note that the majority of literate Chinese can read "Standard Mandarin" documents and many, if not most, written documents use this form. This should not be taken as meaning that the other languages are never (or rarely) written, only that the standard Mandarin language form is most common and serves as a kind of written 'lingua franca'.</t>

<t>With the adoption of this document, subtags for the encompassed languages became available for use in language tags. These subtags SHOULD be used instead of the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' to identify Chinese language content. While documents written in Standard Mandarin could use the 'cmn' (Mandarin) subtag, their wide accessibility can be indicated by using the 'zh' subtag in this case.</t>

<t>For example, before script codes were available, Chinese written in the Traditional script was sometimes associated with the "zh-TW" (Chinese, Taiwan) tag. Another example would be the association of the various spoken or written forms of the Cantonese language with the "zh-HK" (Chinese, Hong Kong) tag. However, each of these tags could also be (and actually were) associated with other language forms as well. For example, "zh-TW" might also indicate the Min Nan language or "zh-HK" could indicate a Chinese content item adapted for Hong Kong (but not necessarily a Cantonese item: as noted, many written documents are in Mandarin Chinese).</t>

<t>Using the encompassed language subtags (in concert with other appropriate subtags) makes clear the actual language. Script, region, or other subtags can still delineate any additional or local variations in language (such as using the 'Hans' subtag to identify the simplified Chinese script or using the 'TW' region subtag to identify a Taiwanese regional form of a language). Thus, a Min Nan document written in the Traditional script and using a Taiwanese region form would use the tag "nan-Hant-TW", while a Cantonese sound recording could use the tag "yue" (Cantonese) or possibly "yue-HK" (Cantonese, Hong Kong) if the recording were appropriate to that region.</t>
--



Addison
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> So we have a small impasse, indicative of the larger problem here: do we or do we not
> recommend against the use of 'zh' to tag Mandarin Chinese? It isn't the tagging of
> Cantonese that is the controversy. It is whether 'zh' is equated with Mandarin.

I would recommend against tagging Mandarin chinese with zh.  Most people seem to be fairly clear that "zh" means "general unspecified chinese" and "cmn" means Mandarin.

--
<t>With the adoption of this document, subtags for the encompassed languages became available for use in language tags. These subtags SHOULD be used instead of the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' to identify Chinese language content. While documents written in Standard Mandarin could use the 'cmn' (Mandarin) subtag, their wide accessibility can be indicated by using the 'zh' subtag in this case.</t>
--
<shawn> this makes no sense :)  The middle sentence ways "use cmn instead of zh". and the final sentence says "use zh instead of cmn".  If the last sentence is necessary, then it should mention back compat or other mechanisms (like as part of a list that also includes cmn).  The way its written is like saying "tag english as 001 (world) because lots of people can read it".  I don't think that zh should ever be appropriate for cmn (excluding maybe back compat concerns), unless people really don't know which chinese it is.  It has been made very clear that although most Cantonese speakers may be able to read Mandarin, it is not sort of general chinese readable by all when read, it is Mandarin.

- Shawn
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Shawn wrote:
>
> > So we have a small impasse, indicative of the larger problem here: do
> we or do we not
> > recommend against the use of 'zh' to tag Mandarin Chinese? It isn't
> the tagging of
> > Cantonese that is the controversy. It is whether 'zh' is equated with
> Mandarin.
>
> I would recommend against tagging Mandarin chinese with zh.  Most
> people seem to be fairly clear that "zh" means "general unspecified
> chinese" and "cmn" means Mandarin.

Yes. I agree. I'm trying to incorporate everyone's comments into a coherent whole. Since the situation is complex, the "solution" or at least the explantation will necessarily be complex.

>
> --
> <t>With the adoption of this document, subtags for the encompassed
> languages became available for use in language tags. These subtags
> SHOULD be used instead of the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' to identify
> Chinese language content. While documents written in Standard Mandarin
> could use the 'cmn' (Mandarin) subtag, their wide accessibility can be
> indicated by using the 'zh' subtag in this case.</t>
> --
> <shawn> this makes no sense :)  The middle sentence ways "use cmn
> instead of zh". and the final sentence says "use zh instead of cmn".

No, not exactly. What is says is: you *can* label these as 'cmn', but you *can* (the 2119 keyword is MAY, maybe I should use that) indicate your *intention* of making the text (it is text) generally accessible.

Maybe rephrase as:

---
While documents written in Standard Mandarin SHOULD use the 'cmn' (Mandarin) language subtag to form the larger language tag, for some applications where it is necessary to indicate that the text is intended for wide accessibility MAY be indicated by using the 'zh' subtag.
--

> If the last sentence is necessary, then it should mention back compat
> or other mechanisms (like as part of a list that also includes cmn).
> The way its written is like saying "tag english as 001 (world) because
> lots of people can read it".

Actually, we have a tag for that: it is "i-default" and that is, in fact, the purpose of "i-default".

> I don't think that zh should ever be
> appropriate for cmn (excluding maybe back compat concerns), unless
> people really don't know which chinese it is.  It has been made very
> clear that although most Cantonese speakers may be able to read
> Mandarin, it is not sort of general chinese readable by all when read,
> it is Mandarin.
>
It *is* Mandarin, but using the 'zh' tag might indicate that it is "general purpose" text, and not specific to a particular audience. Software resources, for example, typically use this form of Mandarin. My copy of Windows, for example, offers a number of flavors of Chinese locale--and they all appear to be Mandarin.

Addison
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> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]


> > "zh", although they certainly can. The situation in which it's *most*
> > reasonable to tag Cantonese content "zh" is when it is understandable
> > to those that read Mandarin -- meaning it's understandable by the
> vast
> > majority.
>
> So we have a small impasse, indicative of the larger problem here: do
> we or do we not recommend against the use of 'zh' to tag Mandarin
> Chinese? It isn't the tagging of Cantonese that is the controversy. It
> is whether 'zh' is equated with Mandarin.

Again, I don't see why what I said is interpreted as equating 'zh' with Mandarin. I'm completely opposed to that. Re carefully the text that Mark sent: nowhere does it say, "If your content is Mandarin, you SHOULD use 'zh'," or, "It can be assumed that content tagged 'zh' is in Mandarin."



Peter
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
...
> The only thing that the text is saying is that when there is a predominant
> language, for backwards compatibility -- AND with some careful caveats --
> the above is broadened. This is *not* with respect to permissibility, but
> with respect to recommended practice.
> 
>    - It is *permissible* to tag Mandarin text with "und" or "zh" or "cmn".
>       - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with "cmn"*, except that for
>       backwards compatibility, "zh" may be better for many implementations.*
>    - It is *permissible* to tag Standard Arabic text with "und" or "ar" or
>    "arb".
>       - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with "arb"*, except that for
>       backwards compatibility, "ar" may be better for many implementations.*
> 
> That lets people like Google, which has a very serious and important issue
> with backwards compatibility, support the vast amount of Mandarin/Arabic/...
> that is tagged with "zh", and continue to tag Mandarin content with "zh". It
> also lets people like Shawn's group at Microsoft, having no backwards
> compatibility issues with "cmn" and "zh", to shift over immediately.
> 
> It is also orthogonal to the recommendation for non-predominant encompassed
> languages, where we would tag with the more specific tags: "yue",
> "yue-Hant-HK", "yue-Hant-US", "abh-AF", and so on, once they are available.
...

I'd re-frame it in slightly different terms, as an example of the "tag wisely"
principle, rather than as anything that might be understood as a recommendation.
"For some applications, it is possible that there will be cases where it could
be advantageous to deliberately use a tag which is imprecise.  For example,
due to the peculiar situation of written Chinese, an application with large
quantities of legacy textual data already tagged with 'zh' might countinue
to use this over-broad tag even for new data which would more precisely be
tagged with 'cmn'."

Randy


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group
	<ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 12:36:03 -0700
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Hmm... that's a good bit of text.

I incorporated it and did some more editing to cut down the extraneous text, incorporate some of Mark/Peter's text, etc. and posted the result as editor copy "b" here:

  http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14b.html#macrolanguages
  http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14b.txt

Comments?

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:04 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
>
> Hi -
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> > To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
> ...
> > The only thing that the text is saying is that when there is a
> predominant
> > language, for backwards compatibility -- AND with some careful
> caveats --
> > the above is broadened. This is *not* with respect to permissibility,
> but
> > with respect to recommended practice.
> >
> >    - It is *permissible* to tag Mandarin text with "und" or "zh" or
> "cmn".
> >       - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with "cmn"*, except that
> for
> >       backwards compatibility, "zh" may be better for many
> implementations.*
> >    - It is *permissible* to tag Standard Arabic text with "und" or
> "ar" or
> >    "arb".
> >       - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with "arb"*, except that
> for
> >       backwards compatibility, "ar" may be better for many
> implementations.*
> >
> > That lets people like Google, which has a very serious and important
> issue
> > with backwards compatibility, support the vast amount of
> Mandarin/Arabic/...
> > that is tagged with "zh", and continue to tag Mandarin content with
> "zh". It
> > also lets people like Shawn's group at Microsoft, having no backwards
> > compatibility issues with "cmn" and "zh", to shift over immediately.
> >
> > It is also orthogonal to the recommendation for non-predominant
> encompassed
> > languages, where we would tag with the more specific tags: "yue",
> > "yue-Hant-HK", "yue-Hant-US", "abh-AF", and so on, once they are
> available.
> ...
>
> I'd re-frame it in slightly different terms, as an example of the "tag
> wisely"
> principle, rather than as anything that might be understood as a
> recommendation.
> "For some applications, it is possible that there will be cases where
> it could
> be advantageous to deliberately use a tag which is imprecise.  For
> example,
> due to the peculiar situation of written Chinese, an application with
> large
> quantities of legacy textual data already tagged with 'zh' might
> countinue
> to use this over-broad tag even for new data which would more precisely
> be
> tagged with 'cmn'."
>
> Randy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri May 16 12:39:40 2008
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>, Peter Constable
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---
While documents written in Standard Mandarin SHOULD use the 'cmn' (Mandarin) language subtag to form the larger language tag, for some applications where it is necessary to indicate that the text is intended for wide accessibility MAY be indicated by using the 'zh' subtag.
--

What I'm looking for is a subtle distinction.  What this sounds like is "use the cmn subtag for Mandarin, but if you want 'wide accessibility' they you're going to want zh instead".  I don't want developers to think "gee, do I want to support only Mandarin, or all of China?  Well, China's got more users, so I'll tag it zh".

Apps should be able to make the correlation between zh and cmn and yue if appropriate for them, so the zh tag only sounds that helpful in the "legacy" context, or when you don't know if its truely Mandarin.  I do not want Mandarin to be commonly tagged as zh when it can be avoided.

So I'm thinking something more like this (draft, I don't really like how well I said it)

---
While documents written in Standard Mandarin SHOULD use the 'cmn' (Mandarin) language subtag to form the larger language tag, the 'zh' (General Chinese) subtag MAY be used if the actual variation is not known or for compatibility with older applications.
---


- Shawn
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Here's the 14 -> 14b diff:

  http://tinyurl.com/5fuw3j

Here's the 14a -> 14b diff:

  http://tinyurl.com/5tshfa

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Phillips, Addison
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:36 PM
> To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
>
> Hmm... that's a good bit of text.
>
> I incorporated it and did some more editing to cut down the extraneous
> text, incorporate some of Mark/Peter's text, etc. and posted the result
> as editor copy "b" here:
>
>   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-
> 14b.html#macrolanguages
>   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14b.txt
>
> Comments?
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Randy Presuhn
> > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:04 PM
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
> >
> > Hi -
> >
> > As a technical contributor...
> >
> > > From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> > > To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:08 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
> > ...
> > > The only thing that the text is saying is that when there is a
> > predominant
> > > language, for backwards compatibility -- AND with some careful
> > caveats --
> > > the above is broadened. This is *not* with respect to
> permissibility,
> > but
> > > with respect to recommended practice.
> > >
> > >    - It is *permissible* to tag Mandarin text with "und" or "zh" or
> > "cmn".
> > >       - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with "cmn"*, except that
> > for
> > >       backwards compatibility, "zh" may be better for many
> > implementations.*
> > >    - It is *permissible* to tag Standard Arabic text with "und" or
> > "ar" or
> > >    "arb".
> > >       - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with "arb"*, except that
> > for
> > >       backwards compatibility, "ar" may be better for many
> > implementations.*
> > >
> > > That lets people like Google, which has a very serious and
> important
> > issue
> > > with backwards compatibility, support the vast amount of
> > Mandarin/Arabic/...
> > > that is tagged with "zh", and continue to tag Mandarin content with
> > "zh". It
> > > also lets people like Shawn's group at Microsoft, having no
> backwards
> > > compatibility issues with "cmn" and "zh", to shift over immediately.
> > >
> > > It is also orthogonal to the recommendation for non-predominant
> > encompassed
> > > languages, where we would tag with the more specific tags: "yue",
> > > "yue-Hant-HK", "yue-Hant-US", "abh-AF", and so on, once they are
> > available.
> > ...
> >
> > I'd re-frame it in slightly different terms, as an example of the
> "tag
> > wisely"
> > principle, rather than as anything that might be understood as a
> > recommendation.
> > "For some applications, it is possible that there will be cases where
> > it could
> > be advantageous to deliberately use a tag which is imprecise.  For
> > example,
> > due to the peculiar situation of written Chinese, an application with
> > large
> > quantities of legacy textual data already tagged with 'zh' might
> > countinue
> > to use this over-broad tag even for new data which would more
> precisely
> > be
> > tagged with 'cmn'."
> >
> > Randy
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>, Randy Presuhn
	<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 12:46:35 -0700
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Argh. Make the second diff (14a -> 14b):

  http://tinyurl.com/5hazk2



Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillips, Addison
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:44 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
>
> Here's the 14 -> 14b diff:
>
>   http://tinyurl.com/5fuw3j
>
> Here's the 14a -> 14b diff:
>
>   http://tinyurl.com/5tshfa
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Phillips, Addison
> > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:36 PM
> > To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
> >
> > Hmm... that's a good bit of text.
> >
> > I incorporated it and did some more editing to cut down the
> extraneous
> > text, incorporate some of Mark/Peter's text, etc. and posted the
> result
> > as editor copy "b" here:
> >
> >   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-
> > 14b.html#macrolanguages
> >   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-
> 14b.txt
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > Addison Phillips
> > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> >
> > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > It is an architecture.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of
> > > Randy Presuhn
> > > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:04 PM
> > > To: LTRU Working Group
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
> > >
> > > Hi -
> > >
> > > As a technical contributor...
> > >
> > > > From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> > > > To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> > > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:08 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
> > > ...
> > > > The only thing that the text is saying is that when there is a
> > > predominant
> > > > language, for backwards compatibility -- AND with some careful
> > > caveats --
> > > > the above is broadened. This is *not* with respect to
> > permissibility,
> > > but
> > > > with respect to recommended practice.
> > > >
> > > >    - It is *permissible* to tag Mandarin text with "und" or "zh"
> or
> > > "cmn".
> > > >       - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with "cmn"*, except
> that
> > > for
> > > >       backwards compatibility, "zh" may be better for many
> > > implementations.*
> > > >    - It is *permissible* to tag Standard Arabic text with "und"
> or
> > > "ar" or
> > > >    "arb".
> > > >       - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with "arb"*, except
> that
> > > for
> > > >       backwards compatibility, "ar" may be better for many
> > > implementations.*
> > > >
> > > > That lets people like Google, which has a very serious and
> > important
> > > issue
> > > > with backwards compatibility, support the vast amount of
> > > Mandarin/Arabic/...
> > > > that is tagged with "zh", and continue to tag Mandarin content
> with
> > > "zh". It
> > > > also lets people like Shawn's group at Microsoft, having no
> > backwards
> > > > compatibility issues with "cmn" and "zh", to shift over
> immediately.
> > > >
> > > > It is also orthogonal to the recommendation for non-predominant
> > > encompassed
> > > > languages, where we would tag with the more specific tags: "yue",
> > > > "yue-Hant-HK", "yue-Hant-US", "abh-AF", and so on, once they are
> > > available.
> > > ...
> > >
> > > I'd re-frame it in slightly different terms, as an example of the
> > "tag
> > > wisely"
> > > principle, rather than as anything that might be understood as a
> > > recommendation.
> > > "For some applications, it is possible that there will be cases
> where
> > > it could
> > > be advantageous to deliberately use a tag which is imprecise.  For
> > > example,
> > > due to the peculiar situation of written Chinese, an application
> with
> > > large
> > > quantities of legacy textual data already tagged with 'zh' might
> > > countinue
> > > to use this over-broad tag even for new data which would more
> > precisely
> > > be
> > > tagged with 'cmn'."
> > >
> > > Randy
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 13:09:14 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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I think that would be fine.

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Randy Presuhn <
randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Hi -
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> > To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
> ...
> > The only thing that the text is saying is that when there is a
> predominant
> > language, for backwards compatibility -- AND with some careful caveats --
> > the above is broadened. This is *not* with respect to permissibility, but
> > with respect to recommended practice.
> >
> >    - It is *permissible* to tag Mandarin text with "und" or "zh" or
> "cmn".
> >       - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with "cmn"*, except that for
> >       backwards compatibility, "zh" may be better for many
> implementations.*
> >    - It is *permissible* to tag Standard Arabic text with "und" or "ar"
> or
> >    "arb".
> >       - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with "arb"*, except that for
> >       backwards compatibility, "ar" may be better for many
> implementations.*
> >
> > That lets people like Google, which has a very serious and important
> issue
> > with backwards compatibility, support the vast amount of
> Mandarin/Arabic/...
> > that is tagged with "zh", and continue to tag Mandarin content with "zh".
> It
> > also lets people like Shawn's group at Microsoft, having no backwards
> > compatibility issues with "cmn" and "zh", to shift over immediately.
> >
> > It is also orthogonal to the recommendation for non-predominant
> encompassed
> > languages, where we would tag with the more specific tags: "yue",
> > "yue-Hant-HK", "yue-Hant-US", "abh-AF", and so on, once they are
> available.
> ...
>
> I'd re-frame it in slightly different terms, as an example of the "tag
> wisely"
> principle, rather than as anything that might be understood as a
> recommendation.
> "For some applications, it is possible that there will be cases where it
> could
> be advantageous to deliberately use a tag which is imprecise.  For example,
> due to the peculiar situation of written Chinese, an application with large
> quantities of legacy textual data already tagged with 'zh' might countinue
> to use this over-broad tag even for new data which would more precisely be
> tagged with 'cmn'."
>
> Randy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I think that would be fine.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Randy Presuhn &lt;<a href="mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">Hi -<br>
<br>
As a technical contributor...<br>
<br>
</div>&gt; From: &quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &quot;Doug Ewell&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:doug@ewellic.org">doug@ewellic.org</a>&gt;<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; Cc: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
</div>&gt; Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:08 AM<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage<br>
</div>...<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; The only thing that the text is saying is that when there is a predominant<br>
&gt; language, for backwards compatibility -- AND with some careful caveats --<br>
&gt; the above is broadened. This is *not* with respect to permissibility, but<br>
&gt; with respect to recommended practice.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- It is *permissible* to tag Mandarin text with &quot;und&quot; or &quot;zh&quot; or &quot;cmn&quot;.<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with &quot;cmn&quot;*, except that for<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; backwards compatibility, &quot;zh&quot; may be better for many implementations.*<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- It is *permissible* to tag Standard Arabic text with &quot;und&quot; or &quot;ar&quot; or<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;arb&quot;.<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - It is a *good idea* to tag/lookup with &quot;arb&quot;*, except that for<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; backwards compatibility, &quot;ar&quot; may be better for many implementations.*<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; That lets people like Google, which has a very serious and important issue<br>
&gt; with backwards compatibility, support the vast amount of Mandarin/Arabic/...<br>
&gt; that is tagged with &quot;zh&quot;, and continue to tag Mandarin content with &quot;zh&quot;. It<br>
&gt; also lets people like Shawn&#39;s group at Microsoft, having no backwards<br>
&gt; compatibility issues with &quot;cmn&quot; and &quot;zh&quot;, to shift over immediately.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It is also orthogonal to the recommendation for non-predominant encompassed<br>
&gt; languages, where we would tag with the more specific tags: &quot;yue&quot;,<br>
&gt; &quot;yue-Hant-HK&quot;, &quot;yue-Hant-US&quot;, &quot;abh-AF&quot;, and so on, once they are available.<br>
</div>...<br>
<br>
I&#39;d re-frame it in slightly different terms, as an example of the &quot;tag wisely&quot;<br>
principle, rather than as anything that might be understood as a recommendation.<br>
&quot;For some applications, it is possible that there will be cases where it could<br>
be advantageous to deliberately use a tag which is imprecise. &nbsp;For example,<br>
due to the peculiar situation of written Chinese, an application with large<br>
quantities of legacy textual data already tagged with &#39;zh&#39; might countinue<br>
to use this over-broad tag even for new data which would more precisely be<br>
tagged with &#39;cmn&#39;.&quot;<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Randy<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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> That lets people like Google, which has a very serious and important issu=
e
> with backwards compatibility, support the vast amount of Mandarin/Arabic/=
...
> that is tagged with "zh", and continue to tag Mandarin content with "zh".=
 It
> also lets people like Shawn's group at Microsoft, having no backwards
> compatibility issues with "cmn" and "zh", to shift over immediately.
This seems to be oversimplifying the issue.  I presume that Google would al=
so be interested in recognizing cmn tagged data and cmn requests when they =
see them?  If its "just" some internal database of languages and you have t=
o map between the actual request/content names anyway, then I don't know wh=
y this working group would care if Google called their internal data "zh" o=
r "abc" or whatever.  It the intent is interchange, then continuing to use =
"zh" when what is really meant is a large subset of zh (Mandarin) seems to =
perpetuate the existing ambiguity.

Microsoft is also concerned with the backwards compatibility issues, howeve=
r we recognize that existing "zh" tagged data is not necessarily Mandarin (=
even though its likely).  We don't have language detection tools to try to =
guess what the application's resources or a web page actually has for a lan=
guage.  For back-compat, you'll recall that I thought zh-cmn helped, which =
would seem to solve both problems.  (Google'd have the zh it wants and I'd =
have the specificity that I'm looking for.)

Presumably (unless its only for internal use), Microsoft and Google can't h=
ave different definitions of "zh" for interchange.  If the definitions diff=
er, then indexing of IIS served pages or requests from IE browsers would no=
t necessarily provide the expected results.

What happens for other language tags that change?  Like serbian (serbian re=
mains the same, but data tagged at the region level will change.)  Needing =
to support zh + cmn isn't that different than other common scenarios.

- Shawn


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<html dir=3D"ltr"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<meta content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6001.18023" name=3D"GENERATOR">
<style title=3D"owaParaStyle">P {
	MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px
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</head>
<body ocsi=3D"x">
<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt; That lets people like Google, which has a very seriou=
s and important issue<br>
&gt; with backwards compatibility, support the vast amount of Mandarin/Arab=
ic/...<br>
&gt; that is tagged with &quot;zh&quot;, and continue to tag Mandarin conte=
nt with &quot;zh&quot;. It<br>
&gt; also lets people like Shawn's group at Microsoft, having no backwards<=
br>
&gt; compatibility issues with &quot;cmn&quot; and &quot;zh&quot;, to shift=
 over immediately.<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">This seems to be oversimpli=
fying the issue.&nbsp; I presume that Google would also be interested in re=
cognizing cmn tagged data and cmn requests when they see them?&nbsp; If its=
 &quot;just&quot; some internal database of languages and
 you have to map between the actual request/content names anyway, then I do=
n't know why this working group would care if Google called their internal =
data &quot;zh&quot; or &quot;abc&quot; or whatever.&nbsp; It the intent is =
interchange, then continuing to use &quot;zh&quot; when what is really
 meant is a large subset of zh (Mandarin) seems to perpetuate the existing =
ambiguity.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">Microsoft is also concerned=
 with the backwards compatibility issues, however we recognize that existin=
g &quot;zh&quot; tagged data is not necessarily Mandarin (even though its l=
ikely).&nbsp; We don't have language detection tools
 to try to guess what the application's resources or a web page actually ha=
s for a language.&nbsp; For back-compat, you'll recall that I thought zh-cm=
n helped, which would seem to solve both problems.&nbsp; (Google'd have the=
 zh it wants and I'd have the specificity
 that I'm looking for.)</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">Presumably (unless its only=
 for internal use), Microsoft and Google can't have different definitions o=
f &quot;zh&quot; for interchange.&nbsp; If the definitions differ, then ind=
exing of IIS served pages or requests from IE browsers
 would not necessarily provide the expected results.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">What happens for other lang=
uage tags that change?&nbsp; Like serbian (serbian remains the same, but da=
ta tagged at the region level will change.)&nbsp; Needing to support zh &#4=
3; cmn isn't that different than other common scenarios.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">- Shawn</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
</body>
</html>

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On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>  > That lets people like Google, which has a very serious and important
> issue
> > with backwards compatibility, support the vast amount of
> Mandarin/Arabic/...
> > that is tagged with "zh", and continue to tag Mandarin content with "zh".
> It
> > also lets people like Shawn's group at Microsoft, having no backwards
> > compatibility issues with "cmn" and "zh", to shift over immediately.
>  This seems to be oversimplifying the issue.  I presume that Google would
> also be interested in recognizing cmn tagged data and cmn requests when they
> see them?
>

Yes, clearly. Although even that takes time and effort to do; there is no
magic wand. (As I've said, the addition of non-predominant encompassed
language subtags like "yue" is important and useful for us. The addition of
the predominant encompassed language subtags just means a lot of work for no
additional benefit to us or our users. Following the de/gsw paradigm would
have been *much* simpler. But that is water under the bridge; we just have
to deal with the situation as it is, and try to give people guidance as to
the best way to handle them.)



> If its "just" some internal database of languages and you have to map
> between the actual request/content names anyway, then I don't know why this
> working group would care if Google called their internal data "zh" or "abc"
> or whatever.
>

The working group might not, but we have a goal of using BCP 47 not only
externally, but in communication *within* Google among the many different
products and programs. I assume that's not a bad thing ;-)

It the intent is interchange, then continuing to use "zh" when what is
> really meant is a large subset of zh (Mandarin) seems to perpetuate the
> existing ambiguity.
>

The issue is on output. If a program switches to "cmn" from "zh" on output,
then an external party who doesn't recognize "cmn" breaks. So that program
needs to output "zh" until it is certain that the recipients would all
recognize "cmn".

We could remain silent on this issue in the spec, but that would just be
withholding useful advice for people in terms of "tagging wisely", advice
that would allow people to interoperate more effectively.



> Microsoft is also concerned with the backwards compatibility issues,
> however we recognize that existing "zh" tagged data is not necessarily
> Mandarin (even though its likely).  We don't have language detection tools
> to try to guess what the application's resources or a web page actually has
> for a language.  For back-compat, you'll recall that I thought zh-cmn
> helped, which would seem to solve both problems.  (Google'd have the zh it
> wants and I'd have the specificity that I'm looking for.)
>

No, it doesn't solve the problem at all. There are many, many circumstances
where you want precise communication, not lookup&fallback. If recipient
expecting "zh" (and who doesn't know about the new codes) will break when
they get "zh-cmn" just like they will break when they get "cmn": extlang or
not makes no difference. (Extlang only really has an effect with lookup, you
think positive, I think negative, but let's not discuss that here -- we've
all agreed to look at that issue *after* this round.)


>
> Presumably (unless its only for internal use), Microsoft and Google can't
> have different definitions of "zh" for interchange.  If the definitions
> differ, then indexing of IIS served pages or requests from IE browsers would
> not necessarily provide the expected results.
>

Once both parties can handle both, it is not a problem. And where there is a
handshaking protocol it is not a problem. But there will be a *long*
transition period where only "zh" can be depended on to work.


> What happens for other language tags that change?  Like serbian (serbian
> remains the same, but data tagged at the region level will change.)  Needing
> to support zh + cmn isn't that different than other common scenarios.
>

Right, I've been saying all along that this is the same issue with any
predominant encompassed language.

>
> - Shawn
>
>



-- 
Mark

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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Shawn Steele &lt;<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">





<div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div dir="ltr">&gt; That lets people like Google, which has a very serious and important issue<br>
&gt; with backwards compatibility, support the vast amount of Mandarin/Arabic/...<br>
&gt; that is tagged with &quot;zh&quot;, and continue to tag Mandarin content with &quot;zh&quot;. It<br>
&gt; also lets people like Shawn&#39;s group at Microsoft, having no backwards<br>
&gt; compatibility issues with &quot;cmn&quot; and &quot;zh&quot;, to shift over immediately.<br>
</div>
</div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">This seems to be oversimplifying the issue.&nbsp; I presume that Google would also be interested in recognizing cmn tagged data and cmn requests when they see them?&nbsp; </font></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br>Yes, clearly. Although even that takes time and effort to do; there is no magic wand. (As I&#39;ve said, the addition of non-predominant encompassed language subtags like &quot;yue&quot; is important and useful for us. The addition of the predominant encompassed language subtags just means a lot of work for no additional benefit to us or our users. Following the de/gsw paradigm would have been <i>much</i> simpler. But that is water under the bridge; we just have to deal with the situation as it is, and try to give people guidance as to the best way to handle them.)<br>
<br>&nbsp;<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">If its &quot;just&quot; some internal database of languages and
 you have to map between the actual request/content names anyway, then I don&#39;t know why this working group would care if Google called their internal data &quot;zh&quot; or &quot;abc&quot; or whatever.&nbsp; </font></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br>The working group might not, but we have a goal of using BCP 47 not only externally, but in communication <i>within</i> Google among the many different products and programs. I assume that&#39;s not a bad thing ;-)<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">It the intent is interchange, then continuing to use &quot;zh&quot; when what is really
 meant is a large subset of zh (Mandarin) seems to perpetuate the existing ambiguity.</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br>The issue is on output. If a program switches to &quot;cmn&quot; from &quot;zh&quot; on output, then an external party who doesn&#39;t recognize &quot;cmn&quot; breaks. So that program needs to output &quot;zh&quot; until it is certain that the recipients would all recognize &quot;cmn&quot;. <br>
<br>We could remain silent on this issue in the spec, but that would just be withholding useful advice for people in terms of &quot;tagging wisely&quot;, advice that would allow people to interoperate more effectively.<br>
<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">Microsoft is also concerned with the backwards compatibility issues, however we recognize that existing &quot;zh&quot; tagged data is not necessarily Mandarin (even though its likely).&nbsp; We don&#39;t have language detection tools
 to try to guess what the application&#39;s resources or a web page actually has for a language.&nbsp; For back-compat, you&#39;ll recall that I thought zh-cmn helped, which would seem to solve both problems.&nbsp; (Google&#39;d have the zh it wants and I&#39;d have the specificity
 that I&#39;m looking for.)</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br>No, it doesn&#39;t solve the problem at all. There are many, many circumstances where you want precise communication, not lookup&amp;fallback. If recipient expecting &quot;zh&quot; (and who doesn&#39;t know about the new codes) will break when they get &quot;zh-cmn&quot; just like they will break when they get &quot;cmn&quot;: extlang or not makes no difference. (Extlang only really has an effect with lookup, you think positive, I think negative, but let&#39;s not discuss that here -- we&#39;ve all agreed to look at that issue <i>after</i> this round.)<br>
&nbsp;<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">Presumably (unless its only for internal use), Microsoft and Google can&#39;t have different definitions of &quot;zh&quot; for interchange.&nbsp; If the definitions differ, then indexing of IIS served pages or requests from IE browsers
 would not necessarily provide the expected results.</font></div></div></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Once both parties can handle both, it is not a problem. And where there is a handshaking protocol it is not a problem. But there will be a *long* transition period where only &quot;zh&quot; can be depended on to work.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">What happens for other language tags that change?&nbsp; Like serbian (serbian remains the same, but data tagged at the region level will change.)&nbsp; Needing to support zh + cmn isn&#39;t that different than other common scenarios.</font></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br>Right, I&#39;ve been saying all along that this is the same issue with any predominant encompassed language.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman">- Shawn</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman"></font>&nbsp;</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 14:19:14 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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I have been completely swamped with the Unicode Technical committee meeting
all this week, so I've only been able to squeeze in comments here and there.
The new text that you have looks pretty good, but I haven't had time to look
it over in detail. I'll try to respond before EOD today (I'm guessing that's
what you mean by COB?).

Mark

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

> Your wish is my command. I will submit the draft-14 document in its most
> complete state just prior to the quiet time. Let's say, COB Pacific Time
> tomorrow (Friday 16 May).
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > Randy Presuhn
> > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:35 PM
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
> >
> > Hi -
> >
> > > From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> > > To: "Shawn Steele" <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>;
> > <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
> > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:58 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
> > ...
> > > Some replies follow. Note that I'm going to push a revision based on
> > this thread to my server soon.
> > >
> > > Co-chairs: would you prefer me to submit or not submit the results
> > as draft-14 before the "quiet time"?
> > ...
> >
> > As co-chair, I think it would helpful to have something in i-d form
> > for the consensus call.  It should be a clear indication of how close
> > the "extlangless" approach can come to addressing the concerns that
> > have been voiced, as well as giving us a record of the full context
> > of the WG's decision.
> >
> > Randy
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
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>



-- 
Mark

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I have been completely swamped with the Unicode Technical committee meeting all this week, so I&#39;ve only been able to squeeze in comments here and there. The new text that you have looks pretty good, but I haven&#39;t had time to look it over in detail. I&#39;ll try to respond before EOD today (I&#39;m guessing that&#39;s what you mean by COB?).<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Your wish is my command. I will submit the draft-14 document in its most complete state just prior to the quiet time. Let&#39;s say, COB Pacific Time tomorrow (Friday 16 May).<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">&gt; Randy Presuhn<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:35 PM<br>
&gt; To: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi -<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: &quot;Phillips, Addison&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &quot;Shawn Steele&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com">Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:58 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang<br>
&gt; ...<br>
&gt; &gt; Some replies follow. Note that I'm going to push a revision based on<br>
&gt; this thread to my server soon.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Co-chairs: would you prefer me to submit or not submit the results<br>
&gt; as draft-14 before the "quiet time"?<br>
&gt; ...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As co-chair, I think it would helpful to have something in i-d form<br>
&gt; for the consensus call. &nbsp;It should be a clear indication of how close<br>
&gt; the &quot;extlangless&quot; approach can come to addressing the concerns that<br>
&gt; have been voiced, as well as giving us a record of the full context<br>
&gt; of the WG&#39;s decision.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Randy<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Mark Davis scripsit:
> I have been completely swamped with the Unicode Technical committee meeting
> all this week, so I've only been able to squeeze in comments here and there.
> The new text that you have looks pretty good, but I haven't had time to look
> it over in detail. I'll try to respond before EOD today (I'm guessing that's
> what you mean by COB?).

"Close of business", typically 1700 local time.

-- 
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Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 15:47:41 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>,
	"Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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Comments on
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14b.html#macrolanguages
I assume this is the latest version.

I tried to make minimal changes to the text, and have commentary in [...]
after the paragraph, and replacements in =>

Some primary language records in the registry have a "Macrolanguage" field (
Section 3.1.9 (Macrolanguage
Field)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14b.html#macrolang>)
that contains a mapping from each "encompassed language" to its
macrolanguage. The Macrolanguage mapping doesn't define what the
relationship between the encompassed language and its macrolanguage is, nor
does it define how languages encompassed by the same macrolanguage are
related to each other. Either the macrolanguage or the encompassed language
subtag MAY be used when forming the language tag. Generally the
more-specific encompassed language subtag SHOULD be used. This means that,
for example, Cantonese and Hakka SHOULD use the 'yue' and 'hak' subtags
respectively for tagging and lookup in preference to 'zh' (Chinese), Tajiki
Arabic 'abh' instead of 'ar' (Arabic), and Plains Cree with 'crk' rather
than 'cre' (Cree), and so on.

[ok]


 The family of languages encompassed by the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh')
provides a useful illustration of this. Many different kinds of content have
used tags beginning with the 'zh' subtag, with application specific meaning
being associated with region codes in particular. This is because
historically only the macrolanguage subtag was available for forming
language tags. However, these languages are, in the main, not mutually
intelligible when spoken. Written forms of these languages also show wide
variation in form and usage and many of these languages are written in
various contexts.

[ok]


 For some applications, it is possible that there will be cases where it
could be advantageous to deliberately use a tag which is imprecise. For
example, due to the peculiar situation of written Chinese, an application
with large quantities of legacy textual data already using tags that start
with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might countinue to use this overly-broad
subtag even for new data, which would otherwise be more precisely be tagged
with 'cmn' (Mandarin).

=>

For some applications, it may be advantageous to use the macrolanguage
instead of the encompassed language, specifically with Chinese and Arabic.
For example, an application with large quantities of textual data already
using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might continue to use this more
general subtag even for new data, which could be more precisely be tagged
with 'cmn' (Mandarin). Similarly, an application already using tags that
start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag might continue to use this more general
subtag even for new data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'arb'
(Standard Arabic).

[cleaned up language, removed some unnecessary wording, combined with Arabic
example (see below for reason). ]


With the adoption of this document, subtags for the encompassed languages
became available for use in language tags. Thus, following the general
guideline, for Chinese the encompassed language subtags SHOULD be used
instead of the macrolanguage subtag 'zh'.

[Remove the above paragraph. It doesn't add anything to what is in the first
paragraph, and is better stated there.]


In some cases, encompassed languages had tags registered for them during the
RFC 3066 era. Those grandfathered tags not already deprecated were
deprecated in the registry upon adoption of this document. As grandfathered
values, they remain valid for use and some content or applications might use
them. Since implementations might not be able to associate the grandfathered
tags with the encompassed language subtag equivalents that are recommended
by this document, implementations are encouraged to canonicalize tags for
comparison purposes. Some examples of this include the tags "zh-yue"
(Cantonese), "zh-hakka" (Hakka), and "zh-cmn-Hans" (Mandarin Chinese,
Simplified Chinese script).

[change "Since implementations might not be able to associate the
grandfathered tags" to "As with other grandfathered tags, since
implementations might not be able to associate these grandfathered tags"]


The situation with the Arabic ('ar') macrolanguage is essentially identical
to the Chinese situation, except that while almost all written Arabic is
Standard Arabic ('arb'), most spoken Arabic is in one of the other
encompassed Arabic languages. Consequently, the subtag 'ar' SHOULD be
avoided for tagging spoken varieties.

[Remove the 'ar' paragraph, and fold into paragraph above, as there noted.
It was unnecessarily separated by the grandfathering section, and my
understanding is that the original text was overstating the case with spoken
Arabic.]


Each Macrolanguage's subtag, by definition, includes all of its encompassed
languages. Since the relationship between encompassed languages varies, and,
with the exception of a few languages cited in the table following this
paragraph, users cannot assume that the macrolanguage subtag means any
particular encompassed language nor that any given pair of encompassed
languages are mutually intelligible or otherwise interchangeable. The
languages in the following table represent the only cases in which the
macrolanguage subtag SHOULD be used in preference to the specified
encompassed language subtag. All other encompassed languages contained by
the macrolanguages in this table SHOULD use their specific encompassed
language subtag to distinguish themselves from the broader macrolanguage.

[I'm actually not really happy with removing zh and ar from this list --
because it doesn't reflect reality -- but I can live with it. However, we
have already given exceptional cases above, so for consistency, we need a
bit of wording change, just to point out that 'ar' and 'zh' are handled
differently.]
=>
Each Macrolanguage's subtag, by definition, includes all of its encompassed
languages. Since the relationship between encompassed languages varies, and,
with the exception of a few languages cited in the table following this
paragraph, users cannot assume that the macrolanguage subtag means any
particular encompassed language nor that any given pair of encompassed
languages are mutually intelligible or otherwise interchangeable. The
languages in the following table represent cases in which the macrolanguage
subtag SHOULD be used in preference to the specified encompassed language
subtag. (The situation regarding 'zh' and 'ar' is discussed above.)

------------------------------

  Konkani (macrolanguage) 'kok'  Konkani (individual language) 'knn'
  Malay (macrolanguage) 'ms'     Standard Malay 'zsm'
  Swahili (macrolanguage) 'sw'   Swahili (individual language) 'swh'
  Uzbek 'uz'                     Northern Uzbek 'uzn'

* Figure 8: Macrolanguages closely identified with individual languages *
------------------------------


Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching or
language negotiation. For example, the information that 'sr' (Serbian) and
'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses a closer relation between
those languages than between, say, 'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian).
While it is valid to use either the subtag of the encompassed language or of
the macrolanguage to form a language tag, many matching applications will
not be aware of the relationship between the languages.

=>

Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching or
language negotiation. For example, the information that 'sr' (Serbian) and
'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses a closer relation between
those languages than between, say, 'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian).
However, this relationship is not guaranteed nor is it exclusive. For
example, Romanian ('ro') and Moldavian ('mo') do not share a macrolanguage,
but are far more closely related to each other than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu
('wuu') , which do share a macrolanguage.

[Point out that the encompassed languages are not necessarily particularly
close in terms of comprehensibility. Another example could be used if people
want. Last sentence not necessary here.]

Mark
 On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

>  I have posted an edit to inter-locale.com. Rather than quoting
> extensively, I have done so in a way that allows diffs to be generated. A
> useful diff of today's edits:
>
>
>
> *http://tinyurl.com/5s3lql***
>
> * *
>
> *Note that today's version of the document lives in:*
>
> * *
>
> *  http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14a.txt*
>
> *  http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14a.html*
>
> * *
>
> *Addison*
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Phillips, Addison
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:58 PM
> *To:* Shawn Steele; Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Some replies follow. Note that I'm going to push a revision based on this
> thread to my server soon.
>
>
>
> Co-chairs: would you prefer me to submit or not submit the results  as
> draft-14 before the "quiet time"?
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm not "sure" about this section.  What's "remain valid for use" mean?
> Can Karen still tag new data that way if it helps her application?
>
>
>
> <Addison>"Remain valid for use" means you can still use them. So the answer
> to your second question is "yes"</Addison>
>
>
>
> In the following section it isn't clear to me that the SHOULD excludes zh.
> Presumably the list below is the only "SHOULD" cases, but that isn't
> terribly clear to me.
>
>
>
> <Addison>I agree. The edits on list today from John and Leif are
> instructive here and I think greatly improve this text.</Addison>
>
>
>
> The Chinese family paragraph also emphasizes the historical use of zh,
> which many tag examples, but there is not complimentary section describing
> examples of the tags one might now choose (zh/yue/cmn, etc.)
>
>
>
> <Addison> How about we make the block on Chinese read (this may be easier
> to follow if I post a diff-markup):
>
>
>
> <t>The family of languages encompassed by the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh')
> provides a useful illustration of this.              Historically many
> different kinds of content have been tagged with variations of the 'zh'
> subtag, with application specific meaning being associated with region codes
> in particular. This is because historically only the macrolanguage subtag
> was available for forming language tags. With the adoption of this document,
> subtags for the encompassed languages became available for use in language
> tags. These subtags SHOULD be used instead of the macrolanguage subtag 'zh'
> to identify Chinese language content.</t>
>
>
>
> <t>For example, before script codes were available, Chinese written in the
> Traditional script was sometimes associated with the "zh-TW" (Chinese,
> Taiwan) tag. Another example would be the association of the various spoken
> or written forms of the Cantonese language with the "zh-HK" (Chinese, Hong
> Kong) tag. However, each of these tags could also be (and actually were)
> associated with other language forms as well. For example, "zh-TW" might
> also indicate the Min Nan language or "zh-HK" could indicate a Chinese
> content item adapted for Hong Kong (but not necessarily a Cantonese item:
> many written documents are in Mandarin Chinese).</t>
>
>
>
> <t>Using the encompassed language subtags (in concert with other
> appropriate subtags) makes clear the actual language. Script, region, or
> other subtags can still delineate any additional or local variations in
> language (such as using the 'Hans' subtag to identify the simplified Chinese
> script or using the 'TW' region subtag to identify a Taiwanese regional form
> of a language). Thus, a Min Nan document written in the Traditional script
> and using a Taiwanese region form would use the tag "nan-Hant-TW", while a
> Cantonese sound recording could use the tag "yue" (Cantonese) or possibly
> "yue-HK" (Cantonese, Hong Kong) if the recording were appropriate to that
> region.</t>
>
>
>
> <t>Historically subtags for the various encompassed Chinese languages were
> not available. To overcome this deficiency, some content in these languages
> uses grandfathered tags registered for specific languages (such as "zh-yue"
> for Cantonese or "zh-xiang" for Xiang).  The grandfathered tags were
> deprecated in the registry upon adoption of this document, but remain valid
> for use. Since implementations might not be able to associate the
> grandfathered tags with these modern equivalents, implementations are
> encouraged to canonicalize tags for comparison purposes.</t>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> </Addison>
>
>
>
>
>
> I misread the meaning of "encompassed language".  Is there a definition of
> that somewhere?  I think an example would be appropriate, perhaps changing
> the last sentence to (such as using 'cmn' with the 'Hans' subtag to
> identify Mandarin with the simplified Chinese script)
>
>
>
> <Addison>I added formal definitions.</Addison>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -    Shawn
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>


-- 
Mark

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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 15:58:55 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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Comments follow, prefixed with <AP>

Comments on http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14b.html#macrolanguages
I assume this is the latest version.

<AP> It is.

For some applications, it is possible that there will be cases where it could be advantageous to deliberately use a tag which is imprecise. For example, due to the peculiar situation of written Chinese, an application with large quantities of legacy textual data already using tags that start with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might countinue to use this overly-broad subtag even for new data, which would otherwise be more precisely be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin).
=>
For some applications, it may be advantageous to use the macrolanguage instead of the encompassed language, specifically with Chinese and Arabic. For example, an application with large quantities of textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin). Similarly, an application already using tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'arb' (Standard Arabic).
[cleaned up language, removed some unnecessary wording, combined with Arabic example (see below for reason). ]

<AP> Done, with some edits, as follows:

<t>For some applications, it might be advantageous to use the macrolanguage subtag to form the tag instead of using the more specific encompassed language subtag. This is specifically the case with the Chinese and Arabic language families. For example, an application with large quantities of textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, even though the content could be more precisely be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin). Similarly, an application already using tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'arb' (Standard Arabic).</t>
---

With the adoption of this document, subtags for the encompassed languages became available for use in language tags. Thus, following the general guideline, for Chinese the encompassed language subtags SHOULD be used instead of the macrolanguage subtag 'zh'.
[Remove the above paragraph. It doesn't add anything to what is in the first paragraph, and is better stated there.]

<AP> Done. Although I note that this is the specific normative text others have asked for.

In some cases, encompassed languages had tags registered for them during the RFC 3066 era. Those grandfathered tags not already deprecated were deprecated in the registry upon adoption of this document. As grandfathered values, they remain valid for use and some content or applications might use them. Since implementations might not be able to associate the grandfathered tags with the encompassed language subtag equivalents that are recommended by this document, implementations are encouraged to canonicalize tags for comparison purposes. Some examples of this include the tags "zh-yue" (Cantonese), "zh-hakka" (Hakka), and "zh-cmn-Hans" (Mandarin Chinese, Simplified Chinese script).
[change "Since implementations might not be able to associate the grandfathered tags" to "As with other grandfathered tags, since implementations might not be able to associate these grandfathered tags"]

<AP> Done.

The situation with the Arabic ('ar') macrolanguage is essentially identical to the Chinese situation, except that while almost all written Arabic is Standard Arabic ('arb'), most spoken Arabic is in one of the other encompassed Arabic languages. Consequently, the subtag 'ar' SHOULD be avoided for tagging spoken varieties.
[Remove the 'ar' paragraph, and fold into paragraph above, as there noted. It was unnecessarily separated by the grandfathering section, and my understanding is that the original text was overstating the case with spoken Arabic.]

<AP> Done.

Each Macrolanguage's subtag, by definition, includes all of its encompassed languages. Since the relationship between encompassed languages varies, and, with the exception of a few languages cited in the table following this paragraph, users cannot assume that the macrolanguage subtag means any particular encompassed language nor that any given pair of encompassed languages are mutually intelligible or otherwise interchangeable. The languages in the following table represent the only cases in which the macrolanguage subtag SHOULD be used in preference to the specified encompassed language subtag. All other encompassed languages contained by the macrolanguages in this table SHOULD use their specific encompassed language subtag to distinguish themselves from the broader macrolanguage.
[I'm actually not really happy with removing zh and ar from this list -- because it doesn't reflect reality -- but I can live with it. However, we have already given exceptional cases above, so for consistency, we need a bit of wording change, just to point out that 'ar' and 'zh' are handled differently.]
=>
Each Macrolanguage's subtag, by definition, includes all of its encompassed languages. Since the relationship between encompassed languages varies, and, with the exception of a few languages cited in the table following this paragraph, users cannot assume that the macrolanguage subtag means any particular encompassed language nor that any given pair of encompassed languages are mutually intelligible or otherwise interchangeable. The languages in the following table represent cases in which the macrolanguage subtag SHOULD be used in preference to the specified encompassed language subtag. (The situation regarding 'zh' and 'ar' is discussed above.)

<AP> Done.
________________________________________
Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching or language negotiation. For example, the information that 'sr' (Serbian) and 'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses a closer relation between those languages than between, say, 'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian). While it is valid to use either the subtag of the encompassed language or of the macrolanguage to form a language tag, many matching applications will not be aware of the relationship between the languages.
=>
Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching or language negotiation. For example, the information that 'sr' (Serbian) and 'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses a closer relation between those languages than between, say, 'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian). However, this relationship is not guaranteed nor is it exclusive. For example, Romanian ('ro') and Moldavian ('mo') do not share a macrolanguage, but are far more closely related to each other than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu') , which do share a macrolanguage.
[Point out that the encompassed languages are not necessarily particularly close in terms of comprehensibility. Another example could be used if people want. Last sentence not necessary here.]

<AP> Done.


===============

Edits to be posted shortly.

Addison
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> The situation with the Arabic ('ar') macrolanguage is essentially identical
> to the Chinese situation, except that while almost all written Arabic is
> Standard Arabic ('arb'), most spoken Arabic is in one of the other
> encompassed Arabic languages. Consequently, the subtag 'ar' SHOULD be
> avoided for tagging spoken varieties.
> 
> [Remove the 'ar' paragraph, and fold into paragraph above, as there noted.
> It was unnecessarily separated by the grandfathering section, and my
> understanding is that the original text was overstating the case with spoken
> Arabic.]

Well, "most" *is* overstated, but the general point is still true.  However,
I'm happy with your shortened wording above.

> Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching or
> language negotiation. For example, the information that 'sr' (Serbian) and
> 'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses a closer relation between
> those languages than between, say, 'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian).
> However, this relationship is not guaranteed nor is it exclusive. For
> example, Romanian ('ro') and Moldavian ('mo') do not share a macrolanguage,
> but are far more closely related to each other than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu
> ('wuu') , which do share a macrolanguage.
> 
> [Point out that the encompassed languages are not necessarily particularly
> close in terms of comprehensibility. Another example could be used if people
> want. Last sentence not necessary here.]

Examples are never *necessary*, but this one IMHO improves clarity, and should stay.

-- 
MEET US AT POINT ORANGE AT MIDNIGHT BRING YOUR DUCK OR PREPARE TO FACE WUGGUMS
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I think I brought some of these up before, but they appear to still
be there:

4.2 ends with a sentence fragment, at least in the HTML.  By its content,
it seems to belong to 4.3.

2.2.4 point 3.C is confusingly worded:  s/MUST be defined according
to the rules/ MUST be defined only in accordance with the rules/, or
something to that effect.

s/maintenance agency/registration authority/ with respect to ISO 639,
639-2, and 639-3 as well as ISO 19524.  References to the 3166-1
maintenance agency should be left alone.

-- 
John Cowan    cowan@ccil.org    http://ccil.org/~cowan
If a traveler were informed that such a man [as Lord John Russell] was
leader of the House of Commons, he may well begin to comprehend how the
Egyptians worshiped an insect.  --Benjamin Disraeli
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After looking over your comment, I think we want to make the point of the
last sentence more clearly at the beginning, as well. What I propose is
splitting the first paragraph and inserting a new sentence (in yellow below,
the last line of the first paragraph):

Some primary language records in the registry have a "Macrolanguage" field (
Section 3.1.9 (Macrolanguage
Field)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14b.html#macrolang>)
that contains a mapping from each "encompassed language" to its
macrolanguage. The Macrolanguage mapping doesn't define what the
relationship between the encompassed language and its macrolanguage is, nor
does it define how languages encompassed by the same macrolanguage are
related to each other. In particular, two different languages encompassed by
the same macrolanguage may differ from one another more than say, French and
Spanish do.

Either the macrolanguage or the encompassed language subtag MAY be used when
forming the language tag. Generally the more-specific encompassed language
subtag SHOULD be used. This means that, for example, Cantonese and Hakka
SHOULD use the 'yue' and 'hak' subtags respectively for tagging and lookup
in preference to 'zh' (Chinese), Tajiki Arabic 'abh' instead of 'ar'
(Arabic), and Plains Cree with 'crk' rather than 'cre' (Cree), and so on.

How does that sound?

Mark

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 4:14 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> > The situation with the Arabic ('ar') macrolanguage is essentially
> identical
> > to the Chinese situation, except that while almost all written Arabic is
> > Standard Arabic ('arb'), most spoken Arabic is in one of the other
> > encompassed Arabic languages. Consequently, the subtag 'ar' SHOULD be
> > avoided for tagging spoken varieties.
> >
> > [Remove the 'ar' paragraph, and fold into paragraph above, as there
> noted.
> > It was unnecessarily separated by the grandfathering section, and my
> > understanding is that the original text was overstating the case with
> spoken
> > Arabic.]
>
> Well, "most" *is* overstated, but the general point is still true.
>  However,
> I'm happy with your shortened wording above.
>
> > Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching or
> > language negotiation. For example, the information that 'sr' (Serbian)
> and
> > 'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses a closer relation between
> > those languages than between, say, 'sr' (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian).
> > However, this relationship is not guaranteed nor is it exclusive. For
> > example, Romanian ('ro') and Moldavian ('mo') do not share a
> macrolanguage,
> > but are far more closely related to each other than Cantonese ('yue') and
> Wu
> > ('wuu') , which do share a macrolanguage.
> >
> > [Point out that the encompassed languages are not necessarily
> particularly
> > close in terms of comprehensibility. Another example could be used if
> people
> > want. Last sentence not necessary here.]
>
> Examples are never *necessary*, but this one IMHO improves clarity, and
> should stay.
>
> --
> MEET US AT POINT ORANGE AT MIDNIGHT BRING YOUR DUCK OR PREPARE TO FACE
> WUGGUMS
> John Cowan      cowan@ccil.org      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan<http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan>
>



-- 
Mark

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After looking over your comment, I think we want to make the point of the last sentence more clearly at the beginning, as well. What I propose is splitting the first paragraph and inserting a new sentence (in yellow below, the last line of the first paragraph):<br>
<br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">Some primary language records in the registry have a &quot;Macrolanguage&quot; field (<a href="http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/editor/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14b.html#macrolang" target="_blank">Section&nbsp;3.1.9<span> (</span><span>Macrolanguage Field</span><span>)</span></a>)
that contains a mapping from each &quot;encompassed language&quot; to its
macrolanguage. The Macrolanguage mapping doesn&#39;t define what the
relationship between the encompassed language and its macrolanguage is,
nor does it define how languages encompassed by the same macrolanguage
are related to each other.<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 204);"> In particular, two different languages encompassed by the same macrolanguage may differ from one another more than say, French and Spanish do.</span><br>
<br>Either the macrolanguage or the encompassed
language subtag MAY be used when forming the language tag. Generally
the more-specific encompassed language subtag SHOULD be used. This
means that, for example, Cantonese and Hakka SHOULD use the &#39;yue&#39; and
&#39;hak&#39; subtags respectively for tagging and lookup in preference to &#39;zh&#39;
(Chinese), Tajiki Arabic &#39;abh&#39; instead of &#39;ar&#39; (Arabic), and Plains
Cree with &#39;crk&#39; rather than &#39;cre&#39; (Cree), and so on.<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 204);"></span><br>
</div><br>How does that sound?<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 4:14 PM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Mark Davis scripsit:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; The situation with the Arabic (&#39;ar&#39;) macrolanguage is essentially identical<br>
&gt; to the Chinese situation, except that while almost all written Arabic is<br>
&gt; Standard Arabic (&#39;arb&#39;), most spoken Arabic is in one of the other<br>
&gt; encompassed Arabic languages. Consequently, the subtag &#39;ar&#39; SHOULD be<br>
&gt; avoided for tagging spoken varieties.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [Remove the &#39;ar&#39; paragraph, and fold into paragraph above, as there noted.<br>
&gt; It was unnecessarily separated by the grandfathering section, and my<br>
&gt; understanding is that the original text was overstating the case with spoken<br>
&gt; Arabic.]<br>
<br>
</div>Well, &quot;most&quot; *is* overstated, but the general point is still true. &nbsp;However,<br>
I&#39;m happy with your shortened wording above.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching or<br>
&gt; language negotiation. For example, the information that &#39;sr&#39; (Serbian) and<br>
&gt; &#39;hr&#39; (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses a closer relation between<br>
&gt; those languages than between, say, &#39;sr&#39; (Serbian) and &#39;ma&#39; (Macedonian).<br>
&gt; However, this relationship is not guaranteed nor is it exclusive. For<br>
&gt; example, Romanian (&#39;ro&#39;) and Moldavian (&#39;mo&#39;) do not share a macrolanguage,<br>
&gt; but are far more closely related to each other than Cantonese (&#39;yue&#39;) and Wu<br>
&gt; (&#39;wuu&#39;) , which do share a macrolanguage.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [Point out that the encompassed languages are not necessarily particularly<br>
&gt; close in terms of comprehensibility. Another example could be used if people<br>
&gt; want. Last sentence not necessary here.]<br>
<br>
</div>Examples are never *necessary*, but this one IMHO improves clarity, and should stay.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
MEET US AT POINT ORANGE AT MIDNIGHT BRING YOUR DUCK OR PREPARE TO FACE WUGGUMS<br>
John Cowan &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href="http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan" target="_blank">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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>
> I think I brought some of these up before, but they appear to still
> be there:
>
> 4.2 ends with a sentence fragment, at least in the HTML.  By its
> content,
> it seems to belong to 4.3.

It's a bad edit. Eliminated.
>
> 2.2.4 point 3.C is confusingly worded:  s/MUST be defined according
> to the rules/ MUST be defined only in accordance with the rules/, or
> something to that effect.

Yes, this is an icky syntactical mess. I edited it to read:

--
<t>When ISO 3166-1 reassigns a code formerly used for one country or area to another country or area and that code already is present in the registry, the UN numeric code for that country or area MUST be registered in the registry as described in <xref target="ianastability"/> and MUST be used to form language tags that represent the country or region for which it is defined (rather than the recycled ISO 3166-1 code).</t>
--

>
> s/maintenance agency/registration authority/ with respect to ISO 639,
> 639-2, and 639-3 as well as ISO 19524.  References to the 3166-1
> maintenance agency should be left alone.

Done.

Addison

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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang or not extlang
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Tags for Identifying Languages
	Author(s)       : A. Phillips, M. Davis
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt
	Pages           : 77
	Date            : 2008-05-16

This document describes the structure, content, construction, and
semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to
indicate the language used in an information object.  It also
describes how to register values for use in language tags and the
creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange.

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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt
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Great, thanks for all your hard work on this!

Mark

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
wrote:

> That's right, draft-14 is live.
>
> It is also posted to Inter-Locale in HTML and XML formats. Note that
> "letter version" diffs (14a, 14b, etc.) are now pretty pointless or
> non-functional. Draft-13 => draft-14 diff is available.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 8:45 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: ltru@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ltru] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group
> of the IETF.
>
>
>        Title           : Tags for Identifying Languages
>        Author(s)       : A. Phillips, M. Davis
>        Filename        : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt
>        Pages           : 77
>        Date            : 2008-05-16
>
> This document describes the structure, content, construction, and
> semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to
> indicate the language used in an information object.  It also
> describes how to register values for use in language tags and the
> creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
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> Internet-Draft.
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> _______________________________________________
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>


-- 
Mark

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Great, thanks for all your hard work on this!<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
That&#39;s right, draft-14 is live.<br>
<br>
It is also posted to Inter-Locale in HTML and XML formats. Note that &quot;letter version&quot; diffs (14a, 14b, etc.) are now pretty pointless or non-functional. Draft-13 =&gt; draft-14 diff is available.<br>
<br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a href="mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org">Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</a><br>

Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 8:45 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [Ltru] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt<br>
<br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.<br>
This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF.<br>
<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Title &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : Tags for Identifying Languages<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Author(s) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : A. Phillips, M. Davis<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Filename &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Pages &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : 77<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Date &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: 2008-05-16<br>
<br>
This document describes the structure, content, construction, and<br>
semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to<br>
indicate the language used in an information object. &nbsp;It also<br>
describes how to register values for use in language tags and the<br>
creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange.<br>
<br>
A URL for this Internet-Draft is:<br>
<a href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt</a><br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" target="_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader<br>
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the<br>
Internet-Draft.<br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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>From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 20:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
>CC: ltru@ietf.org

>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directo=
ries.
>This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Grou=
p of the IETF.
>
>
>	Title           : Tags for Identifying Languages
>	Author(s)       : A. Phillips, M. Davis
>	Filename        : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt
>	Pages           : 77
>	Date            : 2008-05-16

urn:ietf:iddraft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14 section 4.1.1 last =A7 =

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14#section-4.1.1 =

state/contain =

=AB
Applications MAY use macrolanguage information to improve matching or
   language negotiation.  For example, the information that 'sr'
   (Serbian) and 'hr' (Croatian) share a macrolanguage expresses a
   closer relation between those languages than between, say, 'sr'
   (Serbian) and 'ma' (Macedonian).  However, this relationship is not
   guaranteed nor is it exclusive.  For example, Romanian ('ro') and
   Moldavian ('mo') do not share a macrolanguage, but are far more
   closely related to each other than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu') ,
   which do share a macrolanguage.
=BB

Is this enought, or do the working group want that i go further on my =

2008-05-04 proposition =

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg09858.html ? =




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From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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As a technical contributor, this is my technical position on extlang:

To me, the very recent discussion has shown that going back to
extlangs is preferable. The main reason for this, for me, is that
it's easier to explain and deploy. There are very few people,
even on this list, who can exactly explain why and where extlangs
pose problems, and why they might be (somewhat) less desirable
than not having them in some circumstances. On the other hand,
explaining to people that zh is Chinese, zh-yue is Cantonese, and
zh-cmn is Mandarin, seems more straightforward. Designing good
standards and good technology means looking at all the details,
but then going back to make sure the big picture is right.

In my understanding, one of the main points against extlangs was
that the "remove from the right" fallback hierarchy may not be
right. That may or may not be true, depending on the case at hand,
but that may or may not be true also for the relative order of
script and region. Here, there is an advantage of having the
hierarchy in the tag. More advanced matching algorithms can be
developped without having to do registry lookup.

So as a consequence, I personally favor going back to using
extlangs, preferably exclusively.

I'm okay with using extlangs only for those cases that already
have a macrolanguage subtag currently available, or some other
reasonable, not too 'cherry-picky' cutoff.

I'm opposed to allowing both extlang and independent tags
(i.e. both zh-yue and yue), but if that's what we as a WG
decide, I can live with it.


Regards,    Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Martin Duerst scripsit:

> In my understanding, one of the main points against extlangs was
> that the "remove from the right" fallback hierarchy may not be
> right. 

The problem is, AFAIU, that too much information is thrown away:
zh-yue-Hant does not fall back to zh-Hant, but first to zh-yue and
then to zh.

> I'm opposed to allowing both extlang and independent tags
> (i.e. both zh-yue and yue), but if that's what we as a WG
> decide, I can live with it.

I don't think anyone has ever suggested that: it's either/or.

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Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 08:29:07 +0200
From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
To: "Martin Duerst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Hoi,
I respectfully disagree, when yue, cmn are considered separate languages it
is impossible to explain why they should be called zh-yue, zh-cmn. When sign
languages are considered seperate languages it is impossible to explain why
they would be sgn-ase.

It is nice when you are deep into the thought processes as the people on
this list are that this thinking can be explained. I have tried to explain
it to people and I see eyes glaze over each time. When a language is a
language, it should be allowed to use them as such without any consideration
of the ballast of the future. In the end it is computers that  interpret
these codes, they do not have the same problems with synonymy
Thanks,
     Gerard

On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 3:45 AM, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
wrote:

> As a technical contributor, this is my technical position on extlang:
>
> To me, the very recent discussion has shown that going back to
> extlangs is preferable. The main reason for this, for me, is that
> it's easier to explain and deploy. There are very few people,
> even on this list, who can exactly explain why and where extlangs
> pose problems, and why they might be (somewhat) less desirable
> than not having them in some circumstances. On the other hand,
> explaining to people that zh is Chinese, zh-yue is Cantonese, and
> zh-cmn is Mandarin, seems more straightforward. Designing good
> standards and good technology means looking at all the details,
> but then going back to make sure the big picture is right.
>
> In my understanding, one of the main points against extlangs was
> that the "remove from the right" fallback hierarchy may not be
> right. That may or may not be true, depending on the case at hand,
> but that may or may not be true also for the relative order of
> script and region. Here, there is an advantage of having the
> hierarchy in the tag. More advanced matching algorithms can be
> developped without having to do registry lookup.
>
> So as a consequence, I personally favor going back to using
> extlangs, preferably exclusively.
>
> I'm okay with using extlangs only for those cases that already
> have a macrolanguage subtag currently available, or some other
> reasonable, not too 'cherry-picky' cutoff.
>
> I'm opposed to allowing both extlang and independent tags
> (i.e. both zh-yue and yue), but if that's what we as a WG
> decide, I can live with it.
>
>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
>
> #-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

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Hoi,<br>I respectfully disagree, when yue, cmn are considered separate languages it is impossible to explain why they should be called zh-yue, zh-cmn. When sign languages are considered seperate languages it is impossible to explain why they would be sgn-ase.<br>
<br>It is nice when you are deep into the thought processes as the people on this list are that this thinking can be explained. I have tried to explain it to people and I see eyes glaze over each time. When a language is a language, it should be allowed to use them as such without any consideration of the ballast of the future. In the end it is computers that&nbsp; interpret these codes, they do not have the same problems with synonymy<br>
Thanks,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Gerard<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 3:45 AM, Martin Duerst &lt;<a href="mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
As a technical contributor, this is my technical position on extlang:<br>
<br>
To me, the very recent discussion has shown that going back to<br>
extlangs is preferable. The main reason for this, for me, is that<br>
it&#39;s easier to explain and deploy. There are very few people,<br>
even on this list, who can exactly explain why and where extlangs<br>
pose problems, and why they might be (somewhat) less desirable<br>
than not having them in some circumstances. On the other hand,<br>
explaining to people that zh is Chinese, zh-yue is Cantonese, and<br>
zh-cmn is Mandarin, seems more straightforward. Designing good<br>
standards and good technology means looking at all the details,<br>
but then going back to make sure the big picture is right.<br>
<br>
In my understanding, one of the main points against extlangs was<br>
that the &quot;remove from the right&quot; fallback hierarchy may not be<br>
right. That may or may not be true, depending on the case at hand,<br>
but that may or may not be true also for the relative order of<br>
script and region. Here, there is an advantage of having the<br>
hierarchy in the tag. More advanced matching algorithms can be<br>
developped without having to do registry lookup.<br>
<br>
So as a consequence, I personally favor going back to using<br>
extlangs, preferably exclusively.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m okay with using extlangs only for those cases that already<br>
have a macrolanguage subtag currently available, or some other<br>
reasonable, not too &#39;cherry-picky&#39; cutoff.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m opposed to allowing both extlang and independent tags<br>
(i.e. both zh-yue and yue), but if that&#39;s what we as a WG<br>
decide, I can live with it.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards, &nbsp; &nbsp;Martin.<br>
<br>
<br>
#-#-# &nbsp;Martin J. Du&quot;rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University<br>
#-#-# &nbsp;<a href="http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp" target="_blank">http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp</a> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mailto:<a href="mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a><br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div><br>

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sun May 18 01:53:48 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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I agree with Martin very strongly.

However, I do think that there is a danger that the end user will mistag
'zh-yue' as 'yue' and 'zh-cmn' as 'cmn'; purely from looking at ISO 639-3.
I think that this should be highlighted in the document and that users
should be advised to allow for it; where 'yue' is presented it SHOULD be
converted to 'zh-yue' etc.

It really must be made perfectly clear that 'zh' is only to be used when
referring to Chinese languages as a whole or when the individual language
within 'zh' is unknown.

best regards

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Martin Duerst
> Sent: 18 May 2008 02:46
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
>
> As a technical contributor, this is my technical position on extlang:
>
> To me, the very recent discussion has shown that going back
> to extlangs is preferable. The main reason for this, for me,
> is that it's easier to explain and deploy. There are very few
> people, even on this list, who can exactly explain why and
> where extlangs pose problems, and why they might be
> (somewhat) less desirable than not having them in some
> circumstances. On the other hand, explaining to people that
> zh is Chinese, zh-yue is Cantonese, and zh-cmn is Mandarin,
> seems more straightforward. Designing good standards and good
> technology means looking at all the details, but then going
> back to make sure the big picture is right.
>
> In my understanding, one of the main points against extlangs
> was that the "remove from the right" fallback hierarchy may
> not be right. That may or may not be true, depending on the
> case at hand, but that may or may not be true also for the
> relative order of script and region. Here, there is an
> advantage of having the hierarchy in the tag. More advanced
> matching algorithms can be developped without having to do
> registry lookup.
>
> So as a consequence, I personally favor going back to using
> extlangs, preferably exclusively.
>
> I'm okay with using extlangs only for those cases that
> already have a macrolanguage subtag currently available, or
> some other reasonable, not too 'cherry-picky' cutoff.
>
> I'm opposed to allowing both extlang and independent tags
> (i.e. both zh-yue and yue), but if that's what we as a WG
> decide, I can live with it.
>
>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
>
> #-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp
> mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sun May 18 21:56:15 2008
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Martin Duerst

> I'm okay with using extlangs only for those cases that already
> have a macrolanguage subtag currently available, or some other
> reasonable, not too 'cherry-picky' cutoff.

I think the cases for which extlangs might be most beneficial are those in which the macrolanguage ID has been in existing usage. For instance, we entertain the possibility in the case of Chinese because 'zh' has been in established use; if we had never used 'zh' before but had been using 'cmn', 'yue, etc., then we wouldn't hesitate to reject the suggestion if introducing 'zh' and changing 'cmn' etc. to be extlangs. Similarly, if people are just starting to use 'scs' and 'xsl' (North Slavey and South Slavey, respectively -- two of the official language of the Northwest Territories), then there's probably no particular benefit to using the ID for the encompassing macrolanguage and making them extlangs -- 'den-scs and 'den-xsl'.



Peter
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 20 01:28:33 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Commonwealth English orthography
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Mark Davis 2008-05-15 22.10:

> Perhaps the situation is being misunderstood.


You better bet spesific if you present assumtions.

 
> In lookup, you have to return *something* when someone asks for "en"
> (or "de", or "no", or "zh", or "zh-Hant", etc.) Normally, this should
> be the form that is most likely to be what the user understands.


You are confirming the similarities between handeling English and 
handeling a Macrolanguage.

> For "en", the most widely used form is the same as "en-US"; for "de"
> it is "de-DE", and so on. This may change over time, for English at
> some time in the past it would have been "en-GB", and who knows, it
> may be "en-IN" at some point in the future.



Where was the claimed misunderstanding?

The problem on the Mac OS X is that localisations which are "en-US" in 
nature, have been placed, by Apple, inside folders which are tagged as 
'en'.

Thus, we see that Apple has not realized the need for "English 
negotiation".

This is a pity, because if Apple had taken seriously the need for 
English negoatiation, then it would have been simple for them to 
understand - and aknowledge the need for - macrolanguage negotation as well.

The proper thing, in a language negotiation situation, is to be 
spesific. Or - actually, the key is to say two things simultaneously: I 
want "English spesific", but if not, then I want "English general".

The damage of not offering macrolanguage negotiation is/can of course be 
much more serious than the lack of offering a proper "English 
negotiation" can be.

However, those who prefers non-US English would do the rest of the 
languages in the World a great favour if they demanded proper "English 
negotiation" from Apple - or which ever wendor. Because that way they 
raise the awareness of the problem and shows a way to solve it.


> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no> wrote:
>
> > Nicholas Shanks 2008-05-15 16.58:
> > > Translations on the Mac OS [...]
> > > en (with US spellings)
> > > en_GB (with commonwealth spellings)
> > > en_everything_else symlinked to en_GB or duplicated (if symlinks don't
> > > work, haven't tested this yet) [...]
> >
> > As I have stated on list and outside: The problem you take up here, is
> > very similar to the Macrolanguage problem.
> >
> > The problem occurs because you - and Apple - have chosen to use the most
> > generic tag 'en' for 'English US', instead of using 'en_US', as you
> > should have done.
> >
> > This behaviour illustrates what happens when one uses the most generic
> > tag - the Macrolangauge tag - for the dominant encompassing language,
> > instead of using the spesific, encompassing language tag: It makes it
> > very difficult and cumbersome to perform language negotiation.
-- 
leif halvard silli

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 20 03:40:27 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Martin Duerst 2008-05-18 03.45:

> I'm opposed to allowing both extlang and independent tags (i.e. both
> zh-yue and yue), but if that's what we as a WG decide, I can live
> with it.


I would *prefer* both to be allowed. However, I think one should be 
required to choose between

    * EITHER to use the macrolanguage tag as first subtag and then to
      "sub qualify" the macrolanguage tag with a encompassed language
      tag. Region tag would here be forbidden.
    * OR to use the encompassed language subtag as the first subtag, and
      then to "sub qualify" it with the region subtag.
    * The above means that 'zh-cmn' and 'cmn-tw' would be legal. While
      'zh-cmn-tw' would be illegal/deprecated/forbidden.

The "macrolanguage-extlang" (e.g. 'zh-yue') *SHOULD* be used when one 
*wishes* to use the macrolanguage info for fallback! But if one do not 
want to express any such recommended fallback, then dropping the 
macrolanguage subtag (writing instead "yue" or "yue-script") is the 
right choie. (Implementations *MAY* still use it the macrolanguage info 
for fallback, though.)

This EITHER/OR way should, in my view (Doug, do you disagree?), open the 
way for also allowing the "old" macrolanguages from 639-1, such as 
Norwegian, to be used to form tags like "no-nn" and "no-nb".

If one forms the tag using the 'macrolanguage-encompassed' construct, 
then no region information can be stated (according to the EITHER/OR 
rule I suggested above.) The use of  the 'macrolanguage-encompassed' 
contstruct means that the encompassed language information is being 
considerred more relevant information than the region code value.

Regards,
Leif Halvard Silli
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John Cowan 2008-05-18 03.57:
> Martin Duerst scripsit:
>
> > In my understanding, one of the main points against extlangs was
> > that the "remove from the right" fallback hierarchy may not be
> > right. 
>
> The problem is, AFAIU, that too much information is thrown away:
> zh-yue-Hant does not fall back to zh-Hant, but first to zh-yue and
> then to zh.
>   

If we say the tag must EITHER be formed as 'zh-yue-Hant' OR as 
'yue-(region)-Hant', then we can have different fallback rules for 
either. For 'zh-yue-Hant', then "take away the second subtag" could be 
the rule.

I.e. the use of 'macroLang-encompLang' could defined as the preferred 
construction when a fallback to the macrolanguage is recommended (by the 
author and/or the spec) as a good choice and/or when the 
"macroLang-encompLang" construct is considered more important/relevant 
than "encompLang-Region".

Thus this way we would permit the tagger to state whether fallback to 
the macrolanguage tag SHOULD happen or not.

In case the tagger uses 'encompLang-(whaterver)' then the same rules as 
currently proposed counts: Then implementations MAY use the 
macrolanguage information for fallback decisions.

> > I'm opposed to allowing both extlang and independent tags
> > (i.e. both zh-yue and yue), but if that's what we as a WG
> > decide, I can live with it.
>
> I don't think anyone has ever suggested that: it's either/or.
>   

See Phillips, Addison 2008-05-13 01.11, under the subject "Re: [Ltru] 
extlang or not extlang", and Karen's reply. Above, and in my previous 
post, I have hopefully given the "better spelled out usage rules" that 
Karen asked for.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Shawn Steele 2008-05-16 21.39:
> So I'm thinking something more like this (draft, I don't really like how well I said it)
>
> ---
> While documents written in Standard Mandarin SHOULD use the 'cmn' (Mandarin) language subtag to form the larger language tag, the 'zh' (General Chinese) subtag MAY be used if the actual variation is not known or for compatibility with older applications.
> ---
>   

I disagree with the above text.

I would however agree with this text:

<t>While **for example** documents written in Standard Mandarin SHOULD use the 'cmn' (Mandarin) language subtag to form the larger language tag,  the 'zh' (General Chinese) subtag MAY be used for compatibility with older applications. **The same rule applies to all the other Chinese languages. Thus also for example Cantonese may be tagged as 'zh' for the exact same reasons as Mandarin. Another legal usecase for 'zh' is if the actual variation is not known.</t>

-- 
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From: "Don Osborn" <dzo@bisharat.net>
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Hi -

As working group co-chair...

> From: "Leif Halvard Silli" <lhs@malform.no>
> To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
...
> Sad to hear a Google representative speak like that.
...

Participation in the IETF is by INDIVIDUALS, not organizations
or represenatatives of organizations.  There should be no assumption
that anyone's positions will be aligned with the interests of their
employer(s).  It's ok for someone to describe how a particular
company has approached an issue, but that information has no bearing
on a final determination of consensus.

Randy
ltru co-chair

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Don Osborn <dzo@bisharat.net>
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Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:24:27AM -0400,
 Don Osborn <dzo@bisharat.net> wrote 
 a message of 11 lines which said:

> Is anyone on this list following this discussion and the evolution
> of the standard from the point of view of African languages? 

No, I have enough trouble with the languages I know (or can find
information about).

> Just yesterday I learned that a small group has translated Opera in
> Songhai and has plans to localize some other open source
> software. The tag used in the .lng file is "so??" which fills their
> need and appears to approximate most closely to the ISO 639-2 code
> "son" - the latter representing a cluster, not even a
> macrolanguage. 

It is not clear why they did not use the standard code "son". They are
looking for trouble. It is a valid ISO 639-2 code and "son" is a
valid language tag.

> It may be that for some purposes, localizers and content developers
> may prefer a broader tag than what is available in ISO 639-3,

Hold on, it seems an issue with ISO 639, not with us, no? I do not
mean that ISO 639 is perfect, just that we decided to build on it and,
frankly, we (LTRU / IETF) cannot certainly produce something better.

The future ISO 639-5 may help them here, if they want code for broad
language families.

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Don Osborn scripsit:

> It may be that for some purposes, localizers and content developers
> may prefer a broader tag than what is available in ISO 639-3, while in
> other cases find that the latter fits the need. In some cases perhaps
> the optimal tags do not exist yet. What this says to me is that there
> is a need both for flexibility and for various ways to define and
> refine relationships among tags.

There is no dispute about the usability of broader tags from 639-2
or 639-3 (or the forthcoming 639-5, presumably).  The dispute is
solely about the best way to represent those languages which are
treated as single in 639-2 and multiple in 639-3: whether a compound
or a simple subtag should be used.

-- 
John Cowan                                cowan@ccil.org
I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen,    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith.  --Galadriel, LOTR:FOTR
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 23:24:09 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Doug Ewell


> > By implication, this means that I propose putting and end to the
> > "region" subtag class as such. And instead replacing it with a
> "region
> > and extlang class", as one class...

> Hmm.  Well, I guess we'll have to see how the rest of the group feels
> about making this major, fundamental, breaking change.

Like breakfast at Milliways: let's do this after we've done six other impossible things.



Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Comments below.

[snip]

> When this group first has one member which speaks and writes as minority
> encompassed language of a Macrolanguage, then it is of course best to write
> him off.


I'm writing off nobody based on what language they speak and write.

What I'm saying is that the relationship between no and nn/nb, in terms of
mutual comprehensibility, are not typical of other macrolanguage
relationships, based on conversations with Peter Constable, who played a key
role in the development of the macrolanguage concept. If you have evidence
to the contrary for the other macrolanguages (see all of
http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp), it would be good to bring
that forward.

[snip]

> But you should not hide that 'zh' is perfect for Cantonese as well. It is
> the best choice for Cantonese, if you want backward compatibility.


Not at all. When filtering for just Cantonese, you absolutely don't want to
get Mandarin content as well, since you would be swamped with irrelevant
results. If you want Cantonese + Mandarin, you should ask for it. When doing
fallback for Bokoto, you don't want to get Gbaya-Mbodomo. If you want Bokoto
OR Gbaya-Mbodomo you should ask for it.

You seem to think of "no-nno" or "no-nob" as a convenient way to get
automatic fallback. Someone might equivalently think that "ro-mol" is a
convenient way to get fallback from Moldavian to Romanian, or that "tl-fil"
is a convenient way to get fallback from Filipino to Tagalog (or "fil-tgl"
for the reverse), or "de-gsw" to get fallback from Swiss German to German,
or any number of other cases. After all, those relationships are far closer
than the vast majority of relationships between macrolanguages and
encompassed languages.

But in practice, having such compound tags complicates matters more than it
helps, as detailed in the document I sent out.

[snip]

And in my view, this "Leopard" solution for Nynorsk is exactly what you
> propose for Cantonese.  What you propose would, in a very likely worst case,
> cause that selecting Cantonese leads the user to get English instead of
> Mandarine when Cantonese is lacking.


What you are really asking for is for a reasonable fallback strategy that is
likely to get you to a language that you want. After all, exactly the same
situation applies for the Moldavian speaker who would rather see Romanian
than English, and they have no macrolanguage relationship. For that matter,
someone might think that "da-nor-nno-nob" is the answer for them, since they
can understand Danish better than English.

The solution is not to complicate language tags. This is looking in the
wrong place for the solution. What you really want are provided in
LanguagePriorityLists, where you can precisely specify exactly which
languages you can understand, and in what order of preference.

[snip]

I am not surprised that you say so.
> Basically, for English the "remove from right" language fallback
> negotiation method works all the time.


Ad hominem attacks are hardly a way to convince anyone. I've had a
reasonably long career devoted to software internationalization, with
*the*goal being to let people be able to use their languages on
computers no
matter what language. To accuse me or any others on this list of only caring
about English makes me, let's just say, irritated.

Our position on extlang is the result of fairly extensive software testing
of a number of different models of language fallback, filtering, and
matching. In our experience in implementations it causes many more problems
than it solves, and is especially negative for the minority languages, even
more so than the predominant ones. The macrolanguage relationships are
published in the registry, so it is trivial for any implementation to
achieve exactly the same effects as extlang if desired for their
application. (Although as I've said, in general the results would not be
particularly good, because the question of whether A is a good fallback for
B is simply orthogonal to the question of whether A is a macrolanguage for
B.)

If you have implementation experience with a variety of different models --
covering all the combinations with scripts and countries -- dealing with
closely related languages like ro/mo -- and handling both filtering and
lookup -- if you have some basis for your statements, you should bring that
forward, or encourage others to do so.


> --
> leif halvard silli
>



-- 
Mark

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Comments below.<br><br>[snip]<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
When this group first has one member which speaks and writes as minority encompassed language of a Macrolanguage, then it is of course best to write him off.</blockquote><div><br>I&#39;m writing off nobody based on what language they speak and write.<br>
<br>What I&#39;m saying is that the relationship between no and nn/nb, in terms of mutual comprehensibility, are not typical of other macrolanguage relationships, based on conversations with Peter Constable, who played a key role in the development of the macrolanguage concept. If you have evidence to the contrary for the other macrolanguages (see all of <a href="http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp">http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp</a>), it would be good to bring that forward.<br>
<br></div>[snip]<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">But you should not hide that &#39;zh&#39; is perfect for Cantonese as well. It is the best choice for Cantonese, if you want backward compatibility.</blockquote>
<div><br>Not at all. When filtering for just Cantonese, you absolutely don&#39;t want to get Mandarin content as well, since you would be swamped with irrelevant results. If you want Cantonese + Mandarin, you should ask for it. When doing fallback for Bokoto, you don&#39;t want to get Gbaya-Mbodomo. If you want Bokoto OR Gbaya-Mbodomo you should ask for it.<br>
<br>You seem to think of &quot;no-nno&quot; or &quot;no-nob&quot; as a convenient way to get automatic fallback. Someone might equivalently think that &quot;ro-mol&quot; is a convenient way to get fallback from Moldavian to Romanian, or that &quot;tl-fil&quot; is a convenient way to get fallback from Filipino to Tagalog (or &quot;fil-tgl&quot; for the reverse), or &quot;de-gsw&quot; to get fallback from Swiss German to German, or any number of other cases. After all, those relationships are far closer than the vast majority of relationships between macrolanguages and encompassed languages.<br>
<br>But in practice, having such compound tags complicates matters more than it helps, as detailed in the document I sent out.<br><br>[snip]<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
And in my view, this &quot;Leopard&quot; solution for Nynorsk is exactly what you propose for Cantonese. &nbsp;What you propose would, in a very likely worst case, cause that selecting Cantonese leads the user to get English instead of Mandarine when Cantonese is lacking.</blockquote>
<div><br>What you are really asking for is for a reasonable fallback strategy that is likely to get you to a language that you want. After all, exactly the same situation applies for the Moldavian speaker who would rather see Romanian than English, and they have no macrolanguage relationship. For that matter, someone might think that &quot;da-nor-nno-nob&quot; is the answer for them, since they can understand Danish better than English.<br>
<br>The solution is not to complicate language tags. This is looking in the wrong place for the solution. What you really want are provided in LanguagePriorityLists, where you can precisely specify exactly which languages you can understand, and in what order of preference.<br>
<br>[snip]<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I am not surprised that you say so.<br>Basically, for English the &quot;remove from right&quot; language fallback negotiation method works all the time.</blockquote><div><br>Ad hominem attacks are hardly a way to convince anyone. I&#39;ve had a reasonably long career devoted to software internationalization, with <i>the</i> goal being to let people be able to use their languages on computers no matter what language. To accuse me or any others on this list of only caring about English makes me, let&#39;s just say, irritated.<br>
<br>Our position on extlang is the result of fairly extensive software testing of a number of different models of language fallback, filtering, and matching. In our experience in implementations it causes many more problems than it solves, and is especially negative for the minority languages, even more so than the predominant ones. The macrolanguage relationships are published in the registry, so it is trivial for any implementation to achieve exactly the same effects as extlang if desired for their application. (Although as I&#39;ve said, in general the results would not be particularly good, because the question of whether A is a good fallback for B is simply orthogonal to the question of whether A is a macrolanguage for B.)<br>
<br>If you have implementation experience with a variety of different models -- covering all the combinations with scripts and countries -- dealing with closely related languages like ro/mo -- and handling both filtering and lookup -- if you have some basis for your statements, you should bring that forward, or encourage others to do so.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
-- <br><font color="#888888">
leif halvard silli<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 22 01:26:26 2008
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Hi -

As co-chair...

Later in this message I will be asking some questions.  Please
respond to this mailing list so that the co-chairs can decide
what to instruct the editors to do regarding the general disposition
(*not* detailed wordsmithing!) of the extlang question.

Please respond no later than Saturday, May 24th, wherever you are.
Please DO NOT respond to others' responses.
If you feel compelled to include a rationale with your response,
PLEASE keep it down to a single brief sentence, and don't expect
anyone to respond to it.  If you want a conversation, start a
new thread!

We've discussed this quite enough.  About 600 messages have been
posted this month on this list, mostly on this topic.  After wading
through this mass, I'm quite convinced that while further wordsmithing
(of whatever solution we agree to) will be needed, the arguments for
and against each of the approaches were made quite some time ago.
There are conflicting considerations and analyses, and it's clear
to me there's no perfect answer that will make everyone happy.

Q1: The current draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt)
    does away with the "extlang" production. Possible responses: (pick ONE)
        A - I like this.
        B - I can live with this.
        C - I object to this.   

Q2: We could go back to using "extlang" in the grammar, requiring its
    use for representing "encompassed" languages that are being added.
    Possible responses:  (pick ONE)
        A - I would like this.
        B - I could live with this.
        C - I would object to this.

Randy

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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Randy Presuhn'" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>,
	"'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Q1 = C
Q2 = A

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: 22 May 2008 09:27
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
> Hi -
>
> As co-chair...
>
> Later in this message I will be asking some questions.
> Please respond to this mailing list so that the co-chairs can
> decide what to instruct the editors to do regarding the
> general disposition
> (*not* detailed wordsmithing!) of the extlang question.
>
> Please respond no later than Saturday, May 24th, wherever you are.
> Please DO NOT respond to others' responses.
> If you feel compelled to include a rationale with your
> response, PLEASE keep it down to a single brief sentence, and
> don't expect anyone to respond to it.  If you want a
> conversation, start a new thread!
>
> We've discussed this quite enough.  About 600 messages have
> been posted this month on this list, mostly on this topic.
> After wading through this mass, I'm quite convinced that
> while further wordsmithing (of whatever solution we agree to)
> will be needed, the arguments for and against each of the
> approaches were made quite some time ago.
> There are conflicting considerations and analyses, and it's
> clear to me there's no perfect answer that will make everyone happy.
>
> Q1: The current draft
> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt)
>     does away with the "extlang" production. Possible
> responses: (pick ONE)
>         A - I like this.
>         B - I can live with this.
>         C - I object to this.
>
> Q2: We could go back to using "extlang" in the grammar, requiring its
>     use for representing "encompassed" languages that are being added.
>     Possible responses:  (pick ONE)
>         A - I would like this.
>         B - I could live with this.
>         C - I would object to this.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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Dear Randy,

> Later in this message I will be asking some questions.  Please
> respond to this mailing list so that the co-chairs can decide
> what to instruct the editors to do regarding the general disposition
> (*not* detailed wordsmithing!) of the extlang question.

1A
2B

Yours,
Martin Hosken
Script Technologist
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On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 01:26:34AM -0700,
 Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote=20
 a message of 43 lines which said:

> We've discussed this quite enough.  About 600 messages have been
> posted this month on this list, mostly on this topic.

I fully agree.

> Q1: The current draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltr=
u-4646bis-14.txt)
>     does away with the "extlang" production. Possible responses: (pick ON=
E)

>         B - I can live with this.

Rationale: I have a small preference *against* extlangs (see
<http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg10362.html> for
a good rationale) but I feel that one can write a very convincing
argument *for* or *against* extlangs. This is a case where we are
right on the border.

> Q2: We could go back to using "extlang" in the grammar, requiring its
>     use for representing "encompassed" languages that are being added.
>     Possible responses:  (pick ONE)

>         C - I would object to this.

Rationale: To me, it has already been discussed and settled. I find
unwise to reopen it.

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> Q1: The current draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt)
>     does away with the "extlang" production. Possible responses: (pick ONE)
>         B - I can live with this.
> 
> Q2: We could go back to using "extlang" in the grammar, requiring its
>     use for representing "encompassed" languages that are being added.
>     Possible responses:  (pick ONE)
>         A - I would like this.

-- 
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Q1-B
Q2-A

- Ira
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1: C
2: A

Feel like the question is a bit of a false choice and that fallback rather than the identification of languages has been driving the solution.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>Of Randy Presuhn
>Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 1:27 AM
>To: LTRU Working Group
>Subject: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
>Hi -
>
>As co-chair...
>
>Later in this message I will be asking some questions.  Please
>respond to this mailing list so that the co-chairs can decide
>what to instruct the editors to do regarding the general disposition
>(*not* detailed wordsmithing!) of the extlang question.
>
>Please respond no later than Saturday, May 24th, wherever you are.
>Please DO NOT respond to others' responses.
>If you feel compelled to include a rationale with your response,
>PLEASE keep it down to a single brief sentence, and don't expect
>anyone to respond to it.  If you want a conversation, start a
>new thread!
>
>We've discussed this quite enough.  About 600 messages have been
>posted this month on this list, mostly on this topic.  After wading
>through this mass, I'm quite convinced that while further
>wordsmithing
>(of whatever solution we agree to) will be needed, the arguments for
>and against each of the approaches were made quite some time ago.
>There are conflicting considerations and analyses, and it's clear
>to me there's no perfect answer that will make everyone happy.
>
>Q1: The current draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-
>ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt)
>    does away with the "extlang" production. Possible responses:
>(pick ONE)
>        A - I like this.
>        B - I can live with this.
>        C - I object to this.
>
>Q2: We could go back to using "extlang" in the grammar, requiring
>its
>    use for representing "encompassed" languages that are being
>added.
>    Possible responses:  (pick ONE)
>        A - I would like this.
>        B - I could live with this.
>        C - I would object to this.
>
>Randy
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ltru mailing list
>Ltru@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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 Q1: (no extlang) A - I like this.
Q2: (extlang) C - I would object to this.

Mark

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Q1: (no extlang) A - I like this.<br>
Q2: (extlang) C - I would object to this.<br><br>Mark

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 22 15:15:24 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Randy Presuhn wrote 

>Hi -

Hello, 

>As co-chair...
>
>Later in this message I will be asking some questions.  Please
>respond to this mailing list so that the co-chairs can decide
>what to instruct the editors to do regarding the general disposition
>(*not* detailed wordsmithing!) of the extlang question.

>Q1: The current draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14.txt)
>    does away with the "extlang" production. Possible responses: (pick ONE)
>        A - I like this.
>        B - I can live with this.
>        C - I object to this.   
>
>Q2: We could go back to using "extlang" in the grammar, requiring its
>    use for representing "encompassed" languages that are being added.
>    Possible responses:  (pick ONE)
>        A - I would like this.
>        B - I could live with this.
>        C - I would object to this.


Q1 B

Q2 B



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 22 15:28:23 2008
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Subject: [Ltru] extlang  and stability of macrolanguage
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Hello, 

The meaning of rm has changed in january 2007
http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2007-January/005615.html

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-06#page-24  
Type: language
Subtag: rm
Description: Raeto-Romance
Added: 2005-10-16

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-05#page-27 
Type: language
Subtag: rm
Description: Romansh
Added: 2005-10-16

I would had prefer that the maining of rm had not been changed, 
or at least with a change notification in the registry, but this is another 
subject wich has been discuted previously 
( http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg06987.html ). 

Lets suppose that later is added a new language code abc for 
Rhaeto-Romance, added as Macrolanguage: for Rhaeto-Romance 
languages. 

The rm ISO 639 language tag would become 
Type: language
Subtag: rm
Description: Romansh
Macrolanguage: abc 

Without extlang ( urn:ietf:id:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14#section-2.2.2 )
the bcp 47 ietf language tags would become 

rm Romansh; macrolanguage abc 
lld Ladin; macrolanguage abc 
fur Friulian; macrolanguage abc 
abc Rhaeto-Romance

With extlang only ( urn:ietf:id:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09#section-2.2.2 )
the bcp 47 ietf language tags would become 

rm Romansh; deprecated, use abc-roh
lld Ladin; deprecated, use abc-lld
fur Friulian; deprecated, use abc-fur
abc Rhaeto-Romance
abc-roh Romansh; macrolanguage abc 
abc-lld Ladin; macrolanguage abc 
abc-fur Friulian; macrolanguage abc 

With and without extlang (both allowed, 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg10366.html )
the bcp 47 ietf language tags would become 

rm Romansh; macrolanguage abc 
lld Ladin; macrolanguage abc 
fur Friulian; macrolanguage abc 
abc Rhaeto-Romance
abc-roh Romansh; macrolanguage abc
abc-lld Ladin; macrolanguage abc
abc-fur Friulian; macrolanguage abc



Other example: Current situation for "Comorian" in 
urn:ietf:id:draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-05 : 
swb Comorian
wlc Mwali Comorian
wni Ndzwani Comorian
zdj Ngazidja Comorian

Lets suppose that later swb Comorian change to 
macrolanguage of other "Comorian" 
( http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg06987.html ). 

Without extlang ( urn:ietf:id:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14#section-2.2.2 )
the bcp 47 ietf language tags would become 

swb Comorian
wlc Mwali Comorian; macrolanguage swb
wni Ndzwani Comorian; macrolanguage swb
zdj Ngazidja Comorian; macrolanguage swb

With extlang only ( urn:ietf:id:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09#section-2.2.2 )
the bcp 47 ietf language tags would become 

swb Comorian
wlc Mwali Comorian; deprecated, use swb-wlc 
wni Ndzwani Comorian; deprecated, use swb-wni 
zdj Ngazidja Comorian; deprecated, use swb-zdj 
swb-wlc Mwali Comorian; macrolanguage swb
swb-wni Ndzwani Comorian; macrolanguage swb
swb-zdj Ngazidja Comorian; macrolanguage swb




It seem there would be more stability of language code (less change) 
without extlang in such case. Of course extlang have the advantage of 
easier fall back into macrolanguage, by only delete-from-right, instead 
of looking in database if there is a macrolanguage for. 


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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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I haven't looked at the exact language around this that we have already, but
I think we should clearly state (if we don't already) that for any cases
where we have such equivalences, implementations SHOULD treat them as the
same on input. (They may do this by internally converting one way or the
other, but that's not our business.)

Mark

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Broome, Karen <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
wrote:

> Either way, zh-yue will remain valid, but not necessarily preferred. Having
> clear preferences is very important to me. I really don't want to recommend
> that people use "zh" for Mandarin or have to explain to someone why I think
> a deprecated tag is preferred in this industry but not others.
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> >Of Shawn Steele
> >Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 3:42 PM
> >To: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group
> >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> >
> >Q1: B
> >
> >Q2: B (very mild bias toward A, if that would help other groups.
> >This is a change from my previously strong opinion)
> >
> >I agree with Peter:  in particular I don't want other groups and
> >standards to feel disenfranchised with either solution, particularly
> >if that would cause them to adopt a different system.  If it helps
> >those groups to accept a non-extlang path, I would also want to
> >ensure that Chinese zh-yue, etc. remain a legitimate alias for yue.
> >
> >- Shawn
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> >Of Peter Constable
> >Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 3:30 PM
> >To: LTRU Working Group
> >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> >
> >Q1: B
> >
> >Q2: B
> >I lean slightly on the C side of this question, but am very
> >concerned that the AV media sector buys into the same tagging scheme
> >as everyone else; if it would help to that end, I'd want it to be
> >clear that grandfathered tags "zh-yue" etc. always remain fully
> >legitimate.
> >
> >
> >Peter
> >_______________________________________________
> >Ltru mailing list
> >Ltru@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >_______________________________________________
> >Ltru mailing list
> >Ltru@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I haven&#39;t looked at the exact language around this that we have already, but I think we should clearly state (if we don&#39;t already) that for any cases where we have such equivalences, implementations SHOULD treat them as the same on input. (They may do this by internally converting one way or the other, but that&#39;s not our business.)<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Broome, Karen &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Either way, zh-yue will remain valid, but not necessarily preferred. Having clear preferences is very important to me. I really don&#39;t want to recommend that people use &quot;zh&quot; for Mandarin or have to explain to someone why I think a deprecated tag is preferred in this industry but not others.<br>

<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">&gt;Of Shawn Steele<br>
&gt;Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 3:42 PM<br>
&gt;To: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt;Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q1: B<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q2: B (very mild bias toward A, if that would help other groups.<br>
&gt;This is a change from my previously strong opinion)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I agree with Peter: &nbsp;in particular I don't want other groups and<br>
&gt;standards to feel disenfranchised with either solution, particularly<br>
&gt;if that would cause them to adopt a different system. &nbsp;If it helps<br>
&gt;those groups to accept a non-extlang path, I would also want to<br>
&gt;ensure that Chinese zh-yue, etc. remain a legitimate alias for yue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;- Shawn<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
&gt;Of Peter Constable<br>
&gt;Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 3:30 PM<br>
&gt;To: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt;Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q1: B<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q2: B<br>
&gt;I lean slightly on the C side of this question, but am very<br>
&gt;concerned that the AV media sector buys into the same tagging scheme<br>
&gt;as everyone else; if it would help to that end, I'd want it to be<br>
&gt;clear that grandfathered tags "zh-yue" etc. always remain fully<br>
&gt;legitimate.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Peter<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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From: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
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I care more about identification than applications. - K.

Mark wrote:

I haven't looked at the exact language around this that we have already, but I think we should clearly state (if we don't already) that for any cases where we have such equivalences, implementations SHOULD treat them as the same on input. (They may do this by internally converting one way or the other, but that's not our business.)

Mark

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[changing the subject per Randy's request]

> From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]

> Either way, zh-yue will remain valid, but not necessarily preferred.
> Having clear preferences is very important to me. I really don't want
> to recommend that people use "zh" for Mandarin or have to explain to
> someone why I think a deprecated tag is preferred in this industry but
> not others.

And in another msg,

> I care more about identification than applications.


So, it sounds to me like what you really care about are the following:

- Don't have a recommendation "tag Madarin content as zh"

- Have a single clear recommendation for how to tag each language (one or the other of "cmn" or "zh-cmn" for Mandarin would do).


Is that right?


Peter
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Yes, Peter.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>Of Peter Constable
>Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 4:58 PM
>To: LTRU Working Group
>Subject: [Ltru] clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a
>related macrolanguage
>
>[changing the subject per Randy's request]
>
>> From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
>
>> Either way, zh-yue will remain valid, but not necessarily
>preferred.
>> Having clear preferences is very important to me. I really don't
>want
>> to recommend that people use "zh" for Mandarin or have to explain
>to
>> someone why I think a deprecated tag is preferred in this industry
>but
>> not others.
>
>And in another msg,
>
>> I care more about identification than applications.
>
>
>So, it sounds to me like what you really care about are the
>following:
>
>- Don't have a recommendation "tag Madarin content as zh"
>
>- Have a single clear recommendation for how to tag each language
>(one or the other of "cmn" or "zh-cmn" for Mandarin would do).
>
>
>Is that right?
>
>
>Peter
>_______________________________________________
>Ltru mailing list
>Ltru@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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Hi -

As co chair:

PLEASE don't use this thread for discussion!
I'm tallying the rough consensus.  If you want to
spin off a discussion, PLEASE start a new thread!

Randy

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 22 18:40:36 2008
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 18:40:33 -0700
Thread-Topic: clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a related
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Could you live without extlang provided those conditions were met, or do you think those conditions can't be met without extlang?


Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:01 PM
> To: Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a related
> macrolanguage
>
> Yes, Peter.
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> >Of Peter Constable
> >Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 4:58 PM
> >To: LTRU Working Group
> >Subject: [Ltru] clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a
> >related macrolanguage
> >
> >[changing the subject per Randy's request]
> >
> >> From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
> >
> >> Either way, zh-yue will remain valid, but not necessarily
> >preferred.
> >> Having clear preferences is very important to me. I really don't
> >want
> >> to recommend that people use "zh" for Mandarin or have to explain
> >to
> >> someone why I think a deprecated tag is preferred in this industry
> >but
> >> not others.
> >
> >And in another msg,
> >
> >> I care more about identification than applications.
> >
> >
> >So, it sounds to me like what you really care about are the
> >following:
> >
> >- Don't have a recommendation "tag Madarin content as zh"
> >
> >- Have a single clear recommendation for how to tag each language
> >(one or the other of "cmn" or "zh-cmn" for Mandarin would do).
> >
> >
> >Is that right?
> >
> >
> >Peter
> >_______________________________________________
> >Ltru mailing list
> >Ltru@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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From: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 18:50:07 -0700
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I think extlang will likely be a cleaner solution to me than what you might offer, but I'm open to that as long as the preferred tagging and associated semantics are clear.

I think de-CH is a problem. I see more problems like this if we move forward extlangless with multiple "preferred" tag choices for the same thing and subjective distinctions. In the face of that, I start to like ISO 639-6.

I *like* hierarchies.

Karen

________________________________________
From: Peter Constable [petercon@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:40 PM
To: Broome, Karen
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: RE: clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a related     macrolanguage

Could you live without extlang provided those conditions were met, or do you think those conditions can't be met without extlang?


Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:01 PM
> To: Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a related
> macrolanguage
>
> Yes, Peter.
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> >Of Peter Constable
> >Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 4:58 PM
> >To: LTRU Working Group
> >Subject: [Ltru] clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a
> >related macrolanguage
> >
> >[changing the subject per Randy's request]
> >
> >> From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
> >
> >> Either way, zh-yue will remain valid, but not necessarily
> >preferred.
> >> Having clear preferences is very important to me. I really don't
> >want
> >> to recommend that people use "zh" for Mandarin or have to explain
> >to
> >> someone why I think a deprecated tag is preferred in this industry
> >but
> >> not others.
> >
> >And in another msg,
> >
> >> I care more about identification than applications.
> >
> >
> >So, it sounds to me like what you really care about are the
> >following:
> >
> >- Don't have a recommendation "tag Madarin content as zh"
> >
> >- Have a single clear recommendation for how to tag each language
> >(one or the other of "cmn" or "zh-cmn" for Mandarin would do).
> >
> >
> >Is that right?
> >
> >
> >Peter
> >_______________________________________________
> >Ltru mailing list
> >Ltru@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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To: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>	<30b660a20805221029k13cdb18asf31bcb6f9fc491a1@mail.gmail.com>	<DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579562E2683F73@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>	<C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E56157008C2B@NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>	<DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579562E2683FA7@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>	<C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E56157008C4B@NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>	<E19FDBD7A3A7F04788F00E90915BD36C13C251B147@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com>	<DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579562E268407E@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>	<E19FDBD7A3A7F04788F00E90915BD36C13C251B160@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com>,
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Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a related
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang  and stability of macrolanguage
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Nicolas Krebs" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
> To: <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 3:27 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] extlang and stability of macrolanguage
...
> The meaning of rm has changed in january 2007
> http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2007-January/005615.html
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-06#page-24  
> Type: language
> Subtag: rm
> Description: Raeto-Romance
> Added: 2005-10-16
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-05#page-27 
> Type: language
> Subtag: rm
> Description: Romansh
> Added: 2005-10-16
...

The descriptions taken by themselves make this look like a narrowing
of the category.  Was this the intent?

Randy

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To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, "ltru@ietf.org"
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang  and stability of macrolanguage
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Randy Presuhn


> > The meaning of rm has changed in january 2007


> The descriptions taken by themselves make this look like a narrowing
> of the category.  Was this the intent?

The change in the LSTR matched changes made by the ISO 639 JAC. As part of evaluating ISO/FDIS 639-3 and considering how rm/roh should relate to entries in Ethnologue, while the MARC language code list did indicate that roh was used as a collective for Ladin and Romansh, it was clear that there were many other uses of rm that were specifically Romansh, and the JAC representatives from LOC and other libraries indicated they considered it appropriate in ISO 639 to clarify the denotation as Romansh.

Keep in mind: prior to publication of ISO 639-3, the denotation of IDs in ISO 639 was documented only in terms of certain names, which in general are not alone an adequate means of documentation. Part of the change with ISO 639-3 was to begin to document denotations in terms of a larger body of information of a more encyclopedic nature, something that was unavoidable in determining how the existing entries should relate to the large collection of new entries that would be added to the code. This was simply one of many decisions regarding more specific determination of denotation for existing entries that were explicitly or tacitly made.

Btw, this change was made before ISO 639-3 was approved; IMO, it is not a case of a macrolanguage being added.



Peter
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From: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
To: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 19:47:25 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a related
	macrolanguage
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Yes, that's why I thought the question was a false choice. I could imagine scenarios where I might find it acceptable to use only "cmn". But I'm not convinced this is the best solution given the history of the tag and my needs. I'm not so sure my needs are unique. Don Osborn's situation sounded similar to mine. As did Leif's, though I think I disagree with him about various solutions.

When there starts to be too much preferred tag logic based on subjective judgments (such as the relative dominance of encompassed languages) and there are different tags for the same thing -- that *could* in some rare cases mean something completely different (zh and cmn); and you're about to make nonsense of a rather popular set of grandfathered tags as grandfathered tags go (zh-yue, zh-min-nan, etc.)... Well? I'm having a hard time just writing that sentence, much less explaining that to the people that scowl at my explanation for the de-CH/gsw situation.

I'm thinking a lot of fallback situations in my world are really carefully considered business decisions so my primary concern is precise identification of the language. I figure if I can do that and have confidence in what those tags mean, I can throw any logic I want on top of it.

Regards,

Karen Broome


________________________________________
From: Felix Sasaki [fsasaki@w3.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:17 PM
To: Broome, Karen
Cc: Peter Constable; ltru@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a related macrolanguage

Broome, Karen $B$5$s$O=q$-$^$7$?(B:
> I think extlang will likely be a cleaner solution to me than what you might offer, but I'm open to that as long as the preferred tagging and associated semantics are clear.
>

this sounds like your vote

1: C
2: A

could also be

1: B (if there is a clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a related
macrolanguage available)
2: A

but given the long discussion about sec.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-14#section-4.1.1
it seems difficult to formulate that guidance.

Felix

> I think de-CH is a problem. I see more problems like this if we move forward extlangless with multiple "preferred" tag choices for the same thing and subjective distinctions. In the face of that, I start to like ISO 639-6.
>
> I *like* hierarchies.
>
> Karen
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Peter Constable [petercon@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:40 PM
> To: Broome, Karen
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a related     macrolanguage
>
> Could you live without extlang provided those conditions were met, or do you think those conditions can't be met without extlang?
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:01 PM
>> To: Peter Constable
>> Cc: LTRU Working Group
>> Subject: RE: clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a related
>> macrolanguage
>>
>> Yes, Peter.
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Peter Constable
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 4:58 PM
>>> To: LTRU Working Group
>>> Subject: [Ltru] clear guidance on tagging in cases involving a
>>> related macrolanguage
>>>
>>> [changing the subject per Randy's request]
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com]
>>>>
>>>> Either way, zh-yue will remain valid, but not necessarily
>>>>
>>> preferred.
>>>
>>>> Having clear preferences is very important to me. I really don't
>>>>
>>> want
>>>
>>>> to recommend that people use "zh" for Mandarin or have to explain
>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> someone why I think a deprecated tag is preferred in this industry
>>>>
>>> but
>>>
>>>> not others.
>>>>
>>> And in another msg,
>>>
>>>
>>>> I care more about identification than applications.
>>>>
>>> So, it sounds to me like what you really care about are the
>>> following:
>>>
>>> - Don't have a recommendation "tag Madarin content as zh"
>>>
>>> - Have a single clear recommendation for how to tag each language
>>> (one or the other of "cmn" or "zh-cmn" for Mandarin would do).
>>>
>>>
>>> Is that right?
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ltru mailing list
>>> Ltru@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
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>



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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> For filtering, extlang offers no particular advantage. Let's look at queries
> of "ar-ary" Moroccan Arabic vs "ary". In either case I need a way to match
> all and only Moroccan Arabic; I must not fallback to "ar". If I fallback to
> include all Arabic, the actual content that is in Moroccan Arabic would be
> completely and utterly swamped by Standard Arabic. So for filtering, the
> extlang model just gives us a more complicated syntax, with no benefit.

I agree with most of your document, which is almost entirely about
lookup, but I can't agree with your characterization of filtering.
It would apply to filtering applied to a search engine, but a search
engine is a very atypical case of a Web server -- its content is vast
and not controlled by the server's owner except in the broadest sense.

Filtering is the algorithm applied to language-tag negotiation by the HTTP
RFC (2616); indeed, 4647's simple filtering algorithm is taken directly
from 2616.  So as an IETF group we must take filtering seriously, and
it is my contention that using extlang syntax is a big win for filtering.

Remember that the operational difference between filtering and lookup
is that in filtering, a range with *fewer* subtags can match a resource
tagged with *more* subtags; whereas in lookup, a range with *more*
subtags can match a resource tagged with *fewer* subtags if no longer
match is available.

Suppose we are downloading Arabic-language audio, and we wish to receive
Egyptian Arabic by choice; failing that, Standard Arabic; and failing
that, any available Arabic variety except Shuwa Arabic, which we do not
understand at all.  We can inform the server of our wishes using the
following header:

	Accept-Language: ar-arz, ar-arb, ar, ar-shw;q=0

A 2616-conformant server will apply the filtering algorithm and return
anything beginning with "ar-arz"; if none, then anything beginning with
"ar-arb"; if none, then anything beginning with "ar" except something
beginning with "ar-shw".  (Some web servers ignore "q=0", making the
exclusion of Shuwa not work, but that's just a bug; RFC 2616 section
3.9 is clear that ";q=0" means content so tagged is not acceptable to
the client.)

What is more (and this is key) if the server has more than one match
for ar-arb, say ar-arb-koranic and ar-arb-modern, it can return either,
or return a disambiguation page allowing the user to choose.  This is
entirely different from lookup, where at most one resource must be
returned, and we remove subtags until we get an exact match.

Now what if extlang syntax is not used?  Then we must say

	Accept-Language: arz, arb, ar, shw;q=0

And in order for this to mean what it is intended to mean, the server
must extend RFC 2616 and treat filtering for "ar" as magically matching
resources that begin with "arq", "aao", "bbz", ..., "aeb", "auz" (see
http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=ara ).  Either that,
or the user must specify all these tags in Accept-Language.  What's more,
if the list grows, the server or the client must be updated.  Whereas if
all Arabics begin with "ar", there is no such issue.

Obviously extlang syntax won't solve *all* problems with filtering,
but it will help a great deal with some important cases.  That's why I
think the issue needs to be reconsidered.

-- 
If you understand,                      John Cowan
   things are just as they are;         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
if you do not understand,               cowan@ccil.org
   things are just as they are.
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Just for the record, my technical opinion is that we should not make
such a change.

As a co-chair, I wouldn't even be sure whether such a major change
would be allowed by our current charter, but I think unless I suddenly
see a huge groundswell of support for Leif's proposal, I won't
need to form an opinion on this.

Regards,    Martin.

At 13:04 08/05/22, Doug Ewell wrote:
>Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
>
>> By implication, this means that I propose putting and end to the "region" subtag class as such. And instead replacing it with a "region and extlang class", as one class. One would then not need to consult the Registry in order to know that in "no-nn" the "nn" belongs to the "region and extlang class".
>
>Hmm.  Well, I guess we'll have to see how the rest of the group feels about making this major, fundamental, breaking change.
>
>--
>Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
>http://www.ewellic.org
>http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
>http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  $B".(B
>


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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The contrast is between:

   - ar-arz, ar-arb, ar, ar-shu;q=0 // with extlang=macrolanguage
   - arz, arb, ar, shu;q=0 // without extlang=macrolanguage, eg plain RFC
   4646

There are two cases where people use lists, filtering and content
negotiation.

   1. For content negotiation most people use some form of fallback
   (implicit or explicit). For example, if an Accept-Language list is handed to
   a Java implementation, many implementations will actually do fallback on the
   items.
   2. We'd have to look at how Accept-Language is implemented in practice.
   The spec is pretty lame, and a lot of implementations just disregard the q
   values. Take Tomcat, for example. With the Accept-Language string "ar-arz,
   ar-arb, ar, ar-shu;q=0, de;q=0.5", it gets the locales locales: [ar_ARZ,
   ar_ARB, ar, ar_SHU, de]. Note that they are not even in order or precedence,
   and that mentioning ar-shu actually includes it explicitly instead of
   removing it!!!
   3. Even if they pay attention to q values, normally implementations just
   reorder the list, then walk through the list and pick the first one that
   works. By your definition, the content for "ar" could be any of the
   microlanguages, including "arb" but also "shu" or "pga", so this would not
   control that unless there were some metalanguage in the system that said
   that the content for "ar" happened to be "shu". I don't know of anyone that
   does that, or that it would ever be worth the effort to support.
      - Interpreting 'ar' as Standard Arabic is permissible now and after,
      whatever happens with extlang. With the above list, the practical impact
      will be that it will stop at 'ar' anyway and return Standard Arabic. The
      odds of an implementation supporting "pga" but not ar/arb are
pretty darn'd
      low. In practice, of course, very implementation that I know of
will treat
      'ar' as simply Standard Arabic.

Look then at filtering.

Even if the server doesn't support extlang matching, you can get exactly
what you said you want -- reliably -- with an explicit list:

arz, arb, ar, arq, aao, bbz, abv, acy, adf, avl, afb, ayh, acw, ayl, acm,
ary, ars, apc, ayp, acx, aec, ayn, ssh, ajp, apd, pga, acq, abh, aeb, auz
// excluding shu

And this will work even if filtering isn't supported according to the spec;
and note that we have no guarantee that the server will filter according to
the spec -- based on the experience with Accept-Language, it's actually
unlikely.

And really, what are the odds that someone wants that exact list above? And
MUST have it supported with a short enumeration? And does not care if
additional encompassed languages are added?

According to information from Peter, the microlanguages are all independent
languages, meaning that they are not mutually comprehensible. Someone might
know more than one, but there is no particular expectation in the absence of
language-specific information. So while it is possible that someone happens
to know 15-odd different microlanguages under "ar" (but not "shu"), it is
pretty darned unlikely. What is more likely is that someone knows a few of
them, and simply lists the ones they know. The usefulness of having such a
shorthand is really not there.

Peter did his best with the macrolanguage construction faced with what was
there. But the information content useful to implementations are extremely
low, and cannot be relied on.

   - Languages that are *very* closely related do not have a macrolanguage
   ("ro" and "mo").
   - Languages that are mutually incomprehensible do share a macrolanguage
   (most examples).

I don't see extlang as any really practical benefit in filtering. It isn't
useful in a great many other cases of related languages; if I want to use
with nn, nb, no it doesn't help, nor with ro/mo, various varieties of
German, and so on. Moreover, if a customer searches for 'ar' and get a bunch
of documents in shu, they are as or more likely to be unhappy as if they
search for 'de' documents and get back a bunch of 'gsw'.

Extlang is really just not a good mechanism for implementation in terms of
getting good matches, and baking that into the syntax just makes it worse.
It is a negative in lookup, and no positive for filtering either.

Putting some ISO language tags into the extlang position just because they
have a macrolanguage is an unnecessary complication for implementations and
represents a substantive, controversial change to RFC 4646.

Mark

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 9:43 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> > For filtering, extlang offers no particular advantage. Let's look at
> queries
> > of "ar-ary" Moroccan Arabic vs "ary". In either case I need a way to
> match
> > all and only Moroccan Arabic; I must not fallback to "ar". If I fallback
> to
> > include all Arabic, the actual content that is in Moroccan Arabic would
> be
> > completely and utterly swamped by Standard Arabic. So for filtering, the
> > extlang model just gives us a more complicated syntax, with no benefit.
>
> I agree with most of your document, which is almost entirely about
> lookup, but I can't agree with your characterization of filtering.
> It would apply to filtering applied to a search engine, but a search
> engine is a very atypical case of a Web server -- its content is vast
> and not controlled by the server's owner except in the broadest sense.
>
> Filtering is the algorithm applied to language-tag negotiation by the HTTP
> RFC (2616); indeed, 4647's simple filtering algorithm is taken directly
> from 2616.  So as an IETF group we must take filtering seriously, and
> it is my contention that using extlang syntax is a big win for filtering.
>
> Remember that the operational difference between filtering and lookup
> is that in filtering, a range with *fewer* subtags can match a resource
> tagged with *more* subtags; whereas in lookup, a range with *more*
> subtags can match a resource tagged with *fewer* subtags if no longer
> match is available.
>
> Suppose we are downloading Arabic-language audio, and we wish to receive
> Egyptian Arabic by choice; failing that, Standard Arabic; and failing
> that, any available Arabic variety except Shuwa Arabic, which we do not
> understand at all.  We can inform the server of our wishes using the
> following header:
>
>        Accept-Language: ar-arz, ar-arb, ar, ar-shw;q=0
>
> A 2616-conformant server will apply the filtering algorithm and return
> anything beginning with "ar-arz"; if none, then anything beginning with
> "ar-arb"; if none, then anything beginning with "ar" except something
> beginning with "ar-shw".  (Some web servers ignore "q=0", making the
> exclusion of Shuwa not work, but that's just a bug; RFC 2616 section
> 3.9 is clear that ";q=0" means content so tagged is not acceptable to
> the client.)
>
> What is more (and this is key) if the server has more than one match
> for ar-arb, say ar-arb-koranic and ar-arb-modern, it can return either,
> or return a disambiguation page allowing the user to choose.  This is
> entirely different from lookup, where at most one resource must be
> returned, and we remove subtags until we get an exact match.
>
> Now what if extlang syntax is not used?  Then we must say
>
>        Accept-Language: arz, arb, ar, shw;q=0
>
> And in order for this to mean what it is intended to mean, the server
> must extend RFC 2616 and treat filtering for "ar" as magically matching
> resources that begin with "arq", "aao", "bbz", ..., "aeb", "auz" (see
> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=ara ).  Either that,
> or the user must specify all these tags in Accept-Language.  What's more,
> if the list grows, the server or the client must be updated.  Whereas if
> all Arabics begin with "ar", there is no such issue.
>
> Obviously extlang syntax won't solve *all* problems with filtering,
> but it will help a great deal with some important cases.  That's why I
> think the issue needs to be reconsidered.
>
> --
> If you understand,                      John Cowan
>   things are just as they are;         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan<http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan>
> if you do not understand,               cowan@ccil.org
>   things are just as they are.
>



-- 
Mark

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The contrast is between:<br>
<ul><li>ar-arz, ar-arb, ar, ar-shu;q=0 // with extlang=macrolanguage</li><li>arz, arb, ar, shu;q=0 // without extlang=macrolanguage, eg plain RFC 4646 <br></li></ul>There are two cases where people use lists, filtering and content negotiation.<br>

<ol><li>For content negotiation most
people use some form of fallback (implicit or explicit). For example,
if an Accept-Language list is handed to a Java implementation, many
implementations will actually do fallback on the items. </li><li>We&#39;d have to look at how Accept-Language is implemented in
practice. The spec is pretty lame, and a lot of implementations just
disregard the q values. Take Tomcat, for example. With the
Accept-Language string &quot;ar-arz, ar-arb, ar, ar-shu;q=0, de;q=0.5&quot;, it
gets the locales locales: [ar_ARZ, ar_ARB, ar, ar_SHU, de]. Note that
they are not even in order or precedence, and that mentioning ar-shu
actually includes it explicitly instead of removing it!!!</li><li>Even
if they pay attention to q values, normally implementations just reorder the
list, then walk through the list and pick the first one that works. By
your definition, the content for &quot;ar&quot; could be any of the
microlanguages, including &quot;arb&quot; but also &quot;shu&quot; or &quot;pga&quot;, so this would
not control that unless there were some metalanguage in the system that
said that the content for &quot;ar&quot; happened to be &quot;shu&quot;. I don&#39;t know of
anyone that does that, or that it would ever be worth the effort to
support.</li><ul><li>Interpreting &#39;ar&#39; as Standard Arabic is permissible now and
after, whatever happens with
extlang. With the above list, the practical impact will be that it will
stop at &#39;ar&#39; anyway and return Standard Arabic. The odds of an
implementation supporting &quot;pga&quot; but not ar/arb are pretty darn&#39;d low.
In practice, of course, very implementation that I know of will treat
&#39;ar&#39; as simply Standard
Arabic. <br></li></ul></ol>Look then at filtering.<br><br>Even if the server doesn&#39;t support extlang matching, you can get exactly what you said you want
-- reliably -- with an explicit list:<br>
<br>
<div style="margin-left: 40px;">arz, arb, ar, arq, aao, bbz, abv, acy,
adf, avl, afb, ayh, acw, ayl, acm, ary, ars, apc, ayp, acx, aec, ayn,
ssh, ajp, apd, pga, acq, abh, aeb, auz<br>
// excluding shu<br>
</div>
<br>And this will work even if filtering isn&#39;t supported according to the spec; and note that we have no
guarantee that the server will filter according to the spec -- based on the experience with Accept-Language, it&#39;s actually unlikely.<br><br>And really, what are the odds that someone wants that exact list above? And
MUST have it supported with a short enumeration? And does not care if
additional encompassed languages are added?<br>
<br>According to information from Peter, the
microlanguages are all independent languages, meaning that they are not
mutually comprehensible. Someone might know more than one, but there is
no particular expectation in the absence of language-specific
information. So while it is possible that someone happens to know
15-odd different microlanguages under &quot;ar&quot; (but not &quot;shu&quot;), it is
pretty darned unlikely. What is more likely is that someone knows a few of
them, and simply lists the ones they know. The usefulness of having
such a shorthand is really not there.<br><br>Peter did his best with the macrolanguage construction faced with
what was there. But the information content useful to implementations
are extremely low, and cannot be relied on.<br><ul><li>Languages that are *very*
closely related do not have a macrolanguage (&quot;ro&quot; and &quot;mo&quot;).</li><li>Languages
that are mutually incomprehensible do share a macrolanguage (most
examples).</li></ul>
I don&#39;t see extlang as any really practical benefit in filtering. It isn&#39;t useful in a
great many other cases of related languages; if I want to use with nn,
nb, no it doesn&#39;t help, nor with ro/mo, various varieties of German,
and so on. Moreover, if a customer searches for &#39;ar&#39; and get a bunch of documents in shu, they are as or more likely to be unhappy as if they search for &#39;de&#39; documents and get back a bunch of &#39;gsw&#39;.<br>

<br>Extlang is really just not a good mechanism for implementation in terms
of getting good matches, and baking that into the syntax just makes it
worse. It is a negative in lookup, and no positive for filtering either.<br><br>Putting some ISO language tags into the extlang position just because they have a macrolanguage is an unnecessary complication for implementations and represents a substantive, controversial change to RFC 4646.<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 9:43 PM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Mark Davis scripsit:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; For filtering, extlang offers no particular advantage. Let&#39;s look at queries<br>
&gt; of &quot;ar-ary&quot; Moroccan Arabic vs &quot;ary&quot;. In either case I need a way to match<br>
&gt; all and only Moroccan Arabic; I must not fallback to &quot;ar&quot;. If I fallback to<br>
&gt; include all Arabic, the actual content that is in Moroccan Arabic would be<br>
&gt; completely and utterly swamped by Standard Arabic. So for filtering, the<br>
&gt; extlang model just gives us a more complicated syntax, with no benefit.<br>
<br>
</div>I agree with most of your document, which is almost entirely about<br>
lookup, but I can&#39;t agree with your characterization of filtering.<br>
It would apply to filtering applied to a search engine, but a search<br>
engine is a very atypical case of a Web server -- its content is vast<br>
and not controlled by the server&#39;s owner except in the broadest sense.<br>
<br>
Filtering is the algorithm applied to language-tag negotiation by the HTTP<br>
RFC (2616); indeed, 4647&#39;s simple filtering algorithm is taken directly<br>
from 2616. &nbsp;So as an IETF group we must take filtering seriously, and<br>
it is my contention that using extlang syntax is a big win for filtering.<br>
<br>
Remember that the operational difference between filtering and lookup<br>
is that in filtering, a range with *fewer* subtags can match a resource<br>
tagged with *more* subtags; whereas in lookup, a range with *more*<br>
subtags can match a resource tagged with *fewer* subtags if no longer<br>
match is available.<br>
<br>
Suppose we are downloading Arabic-language audio, and we wish to receive<br>
Egyptian Arabic by choice; failing that, Standard Arabic; and failing<br>
that, any available Arabic variety except Shuwa Arabic, which we do not<br>
understand at all. &nbsp;We can inform the server of our wishes using the<br>
following header:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Accept-Language: ar-arz, ar-arb, ar, ar-shw;q=0<br>
<br>
A 2616-conformant server will apply the filtering algorithm and return<br>
anything beginning with &quot;ar-arz&quot;; if none, then anything beginning with<br>
&quot;ar-arb&quot;; if none, then anything beginning with &quot;ar&quot; except something<br>
beginning with &quot;ar-shw&quot;. &nbsp;(Some web servers ignore &quot;q=0&quot;, making the<br>
exclusion of Shuwa not work, but that&#39;s just a bug; RFC 2616 section<br>
3.9 is clear that &quot;;q=0&quot; means content so tagged is not acceptable to<br>
the client.)<br>
<br>
What is more (and this is key) if the server has more than one match<br>
for ar-arb, say ar-arb-koranic and ar-arb-modern, it can return either,<br>
or return a disambiguation page allowing the user to choose. &nbsp;This is<br>
entirely different from lookup, where at most one resource must be<br>
returned, and we remove subtags until we get an exact match.<br>
<br>
Now what if extlang syntax is not used? &nbsp;Then we must say<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Accept-Language: arz, arb, ar, shw;q=0<br>
<br>
And in order for this to mean what it is intended to mean, the server<br>
must extend RFC 2616 and treat filtering for &quot;ar&quot; as magically matching<br>
resources that begin with &quot;arq&quot;, &quot;aao&quot;, &quot;bbz&quot;, ..., &quot;aeb&quot;, &quot;auz&quot; (see<br>
<a href="http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=ara" target="_blank">http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=ara</a> ). &nbsp;Either that,<br>
or the user must specify all these tags in Accept-Language. &nbsp;What&#39;s more,<br>
if the list grows, the server or the client must be updated. &nbsp;Whereas if<br>
all Arabics begin with &quot;ar&quot;, there is no such issue.<br>
<br>
Obviously extlang syntax won&#39;t solve *all* problems with filtering,<br>
but it will help a great deal with some important cases. &nbsp;That&#39;s why I<br>
think the issue needs to be reconsidered.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
If you understand, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;John Cowan<br>
 &nbsp; things are just as they are; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan" target="_blank">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><br>
if you do not understand, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a><br>
 &nbsp; things are just as they are.<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Mark Davis scripsit:

[points 1, 2, 3a snipped]

These all amount to "Some implementations are buggy and don't follow
RFC 2616."  Such bugs that could be fixed at any time, in which
case the servers would come into compliance.  Historical practice in
tagging documents is important, buggy protocol implementations are not.
(A variant of the ISO C motto about "code matters, implementations
don't".)

> [3b]  - Interpreting 'ar' as Standard Arabic is permissible now
> and after,

Certainly.

> With the above list, the practical impact will be that it will stop at
> 'ar' anyway and return Standard Arabic.

As I say, that's a clear violation of the RFC.

> The odds of an implementation supporting "pga" but not ar/arb are
> pretty darn'd low.

Unless it just happens to be a site with lots of audio from around
the arabophone world.  *Across all sites* all non-standard Arabics are
rare, but that doesn't apply to *specific* sites that really need to do
language negotiation.

> Even if the server doesn't support extlang matching, you can get exactly
> what you said you want -- reliably -- with an explicit list:
> 
> arz, arb, ar, arq, aao, bbz, abv, acy, adf, avl, afb, ayh, acw, ayl, acm,
> ary, ars, apc, ayp, acx, aec, ayn, ssh, ajp, apd, pga, acq, abh, aeb, auz

Which is just what I said.  However, that isn't very stable with time
as new Arabic varieties get encoded, not to mention extremely obnoxious
to the user without special support in the client.

> And this will work even if filtering isn't supported according to the spec;
> and note that we have no guarantee that the server will filter according to
> the spec -- based on the experience with Accept-Language, it's actually
> unlikely.

Most authors don't tag according to the spec either, so why have language
tags at all?  Search engines can and should ignore them; that doesn't
mean they are worthless for other purposes.  We design around the central
point that people tag wisely and programs behave properly, which is not
necessarily the best *implementation* strategy for special cases like
search engines.

> And really, what are the odds that someone wants that exact list
> above? And MUST have it supported with a short enumeration? And does
> not care if additional encompassed languages are added?  According
> to information from Peter, the microlanguages are all independent
> languages, meaning that they are not mutually comprehensible.

The Arabic languages don't have full mutual intelligibility, but that's not
the same as saying intelligibility is zero.  I specifically picked Shuwa
(Chadian/Nigerian) to exclude because it's very remote from most others.

> - Languages that are *very* closely related do not have a macrolanguage
> ("ro" and "mo").

I know.  That doesn't mean not to take advantage of the ISO 639-3
information we do have.

> I don't see extlang as any really practical benefit in filtering. It isn't
> useful in a great many other cases of related languages; if I want to use
> with nn, nb, no it doesn't help, nor with ro/mo, various varieties of
> German, and so on. Moreover, if a customer searches for 'ar' and get a bunch
> of documents in shu, they are as or more likely to be unhappy as if they
> search for 'de' documents and get back a bunch of 'gsw'.

As I keep saying, *search* isn't the issue here.  It's *negotiation
by filtering*.

> Putting some ISO language tags into the extlang position just because they
> have a macrolanguage is an unnecessary complication for implementations and
> represents a substantive, controversial change to RFC 4646.

*Now* it does, yes.  All that shows is that I should have thought of
this argument before giving in earlier.

-- 
Values of beeta will give rise to dom!          John Cowan
(5th/6th edition 'mv' said this if you tried    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
to rename '.' or '..' entries; see              cowan@ccil.org
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/odd.html)
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A general comment, repeated below.

People keep confusing two orthogonal concepts, and I think this is at the
root of the extlang issue. These are:

   1. "get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X" (maybe to
   degree Y), and
   2. "get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X"

Number 1 is very interesting, and would be very useful; but it is not at all
the same as #2. If macrolanguage were defined as #1, I would probably be all
in favor of baking it into extlangs. But is not at all the same, as many,
many examples illustrate. Moreover, "mutual intelligibility" differs whether
the content is written or spoken - forcing it to be baked into the syntax
does not allow for that difference.

Also, as I read your response, I think at least part of our apparent
differences is the use of different terminology.

I was using "content negotiation"  in the lookup sense, which is what is
typically done with Accept-Language (not always, but typically). That is,
the client is supplying a list of languages, perhaps with q values, and the
expectation is that s/he will get one thing back. For example, a web page in
one of the requested languages, but could be any sort of resource. And in
such interactions, you do want lookup on the individual items; "ar" is not
treated like "ar(-.*)"

Filtering is much different. An example would be: give me a list of all the
documents in my index that are "fr, ar, sku" that have X in field 5. In that
case, I do want to treate "ar" as if it were "ar(-.*)". Accept-Language
could also be used for this, but with a different meaning.

Bearing that in mind, let me see if I can make some useful responses.

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 9:09 AM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> [points 1, 2, 3a snipped]
>
> These all amount to "Some implementations are buggy and don't follow
> RFC 2616."  Such bugs that could be fixed at any time, in which
> case the servers would come into compliance.  Historical practice in
> tagging documents is important, buggy protocol implementations are not.
> (A variant of the ISO C motto about "code matters, implementations
> don't".)


I was really referring to the ' lookup content negotiation' side of things,
which may or may not be relevant to what you are discussing. And I think
reality is not completely irrelevant to our discussion. ;-)


>
> > [3b]  - Interpreting 'ar' as Standard Arabic is permissible now
> > and after,
>
> Certainly.
>
> > With the above list, the practical impact will be that it will stop at
> > 'ar' anyway and return Standard Arabic.
>
> As I say, that's a clear violation of the RFC.


No, not if we are talking about content negotiation (lookup) rather than
filtering. (this may be due to our differences in terminology)


>
>
> > The odds of an implementation supporting "pga" but not ar/arb are
> > pretty darn'd low.
>
> Unless it just happens to be a site with lots of audio from around
> the arabophone world.  *Across all sites* all non-standard Arabics are
> rare, but that doesn't apply to *specific* sites that really need to do
> language negotiation.


Again, if we are talking about content negotiation, where we return a 'best
fit', it is going to be a rare case where 'pga' is supported but 'ar' is
not. So if one stops at 'ar', "pga" would never be seen, whether it were
expressed as "ar-pga" or not.

If we are talking about real filtering (all documents that match the list),
see below.


>
> > Even if the server doesn't support extlang matching, you can get exactly
> > what you said you want -- reliably -- with an explicit list:
> >
> > arz, arb, ar, arq, aao, bbz, abv, acy, adf, avl, afb, ayh, acw, ayl, acm,
> > ary, ars, apc, ayp, acx, aec, ayn, ssh, ajp, apd, pga, acq, abh, aeb, auz
>
> Which is just what I said.  However, that isn't very stable with time
> as new Arabic varieties get encoded, not to mention extremely obnoxious
> to the user without special support in the client.


But again, this is an extremely unusual query, since these languages are not
mutually comprehensible. And the very fact that you excluded "shu" in your
example means that you don't want all the things that could be encompassed
by "ar". If a new one shows up in the future, maybe you can understand it,
maybe you can't and would want it excluded like "shu". And what happens with
other macrolanguages; will a speaker of gan be able to understand hakka?
Better to just explicitly list the ones that are wanted.


>
> > And this will work even if filtering isn't supported according to the
> spec;
> > and note that we have no guarantee that the server will filter according
> to
> > the spec -- based on the experience with Accept-Language, it's actually
> > unlikely.
>
> Most authors don't tag according to the spec either, so why have language
> tags at all?  Search engines can and should ignore them; that doesn't
> mean they are worthless for other purposes.  We design around the central
> point that people tag wisely and programs behave properly, which is not
> necessarily the best *implementation* strategy for special cases like
> search engines.


That isn't my point. My point is that the explicit list is

   - currently works.
   - handles everything that extlang could, with finer control
   - more powerful, since you can express things that extlang simply can't
   (eg "ro, mo, no, nn, nb"), and provide exactly the list you want.


>
> > And really, what are the odds that someone wants that exact list
> > above? And MUST have it supported with a short enumeration? And does
> > not care if additional encompassed languages are added?  According
> > to information from Peter, the microlanguages are all independent
> > languages, meaning that they are not mutually comprehensible.
>
> The Arabic languages don't have full mutual intelligibility, but that's not
> the same as saying intelligibility is zero.  I specifically picked Shuwa
> (Chadian/Nigerian) to exclude because it's very remote from most others.


People keep confusing two orthogonal concepts, and I think this is at the
root of the extlang issue.

   1. "get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X" (maybe to
   degree Y), and
   2. "get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X"

Number 1 is very interesting, and would be very useful; but it is not at all
the same as #2.

If macrolanguage were defined as #1, I would probably be all in favor of
baking it into extlangs. But is not at all the same.


> - Languages that are *very* closely related do not have a macrolanguage
> > ("ro" and "mo").
>
> I know.  That doesn't mean not to take advantage of the ISO 639-3
> information we do have.


See comment on mutual intelligibility.


>
> > I don't see extlang as any really practical benefit in filtering. It
> isn't
> > useful in a great many other cases of related languages; if I want to use
> > with nn, nb, no it doesn't help, nor with ro/mo, various varieties of
> > German, and so on. Moreover, if a customer searches for 'ar' and get a
> bunch
> > of documents in shu, they are as or more likely to be unhappy as if they
> > search for 'de' documents and get back a bunch of 'gsw'.
>
> As I keep saying, *search* isn't the issue here.  It's *negotiation
> by filtering*.


See my discussion above.


>
>
> > Putting some ISO language tags into the extlang position just because
> they
> > have a macrolanguage is an unnecessary complication for implementations
> and
> > represents a substantive, controversial change to RFC 4646.
>
> *Now* it does, yes.  All that shows is that I should have thought of
> this argument before giving in earlier.


I didn't quite understand this.


>
>
> --
> Values of beeta will give rise to dom!          John Cowan
> (5th/6th edition 'mv' said this if you tried    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan<http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan>
> to rename '.' or '..' entries; see              cowan@ccil.org
> http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/odd.html)
>



-- 
Mark

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A general comment, repeated below.<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">People keep confusing two orthogonal concepts, and I think this is at the root of the extlang issue. These are:<br></div>
<ol style="margin-left: 40px;"><li>&quot;get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X&quot; (maybe to degree Y), and <br>
  </li><li>&quot;get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X&quot;</li></ol><div style="margin-left: 40px;">
Number 1 is very interesting, and would be very useful; but it is not at all the same as #2. If macrolanguage were defined as #1, I would probably be all in favor of baking it into extlangs. But is not at all the same, as many, many examples illustrate. Moreover, &quot;mutual intelligibility&quot; differs whether the content is written or spoken - forcing it to be baked into the syntax does not allow for that difference.<br>
</div>
<br>Also, as I read your response, I think at least part of our apparent differences is the use of different terminology.<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">I was using &quot;content negotiation&quot;&nbsp; in the lookup sense, which is what is typically done with Accept-Language (not always, but typically). That is, the client is supplying a list of languages, perhaps with q values, and the expectation is that s/he will get one thing back. For example, a web page in one of the requested languages, but could be any sort of resource. And in such interactions, you do want lookup on the individual items; &quot;ar&quot; is not treated like &quot;ar(-.*)&quot;<br>
<br>Filtering is much different. An example would be: give me a list of all the documents in my index that are &quot;fr, ar, sku&quot; that have X in field 5. In that case, I do want to treate &quot;ar&quot; as if it were &quot;ar(-.*)&quot;. Accept-Language could also be used for this, but with a different meaning.<br>
</div><br>Bearing that in mind, let me see if I can make some useful responses.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 9:09 AM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Mark Davis scripsit:<br>
<br>
[points 1, 2, 3a snipped]<br>
<br>
These all amount to &quot;Some implementations are buggy and don&#39;t follow<br>
RFC 2616.&quot; &nbsp;Such bugs that could be fixed at any time, in which<br>
case the servers would come into compliance. &nbsp;Historical practice in<br>
tagging documents is important, buggy protocol implementations are not.<br>
(A variant of the ISO C motto about &quot;code matters, implementations<br>
don&#39;t&quot;.)&nbsp;</blockquote><div><br>I was really referring to the &#39; lookup content negotiation&#39; side of things, which may or may not be relevant to what you are discussing. And I think reality is not completely irrelevant to our discussion. ;-)<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
&gt; [3b] &nbsp;- Interpreting &#39;ar&#39; as Standard Arabic is permissible now<br>
&gt; and after,<br>
<br>
Certainly.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; With the above list, the practical impact will be that it will stop at<br>
&gt; &#39;ar&#39; anyway and return Standard Arabic.<br>
<br>
</div>As I say, that&#39;s a clear violation of the RFC.</blockquote><div><br>No, not if we are talking about content negotiation (lookup) rather than filtering. (this may be due to our differences in terminology)<br>&nbsp;<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; The odds of an implementation supporting &quot;pga&quot; but not ar/arb are<br>
&gt; pretty darn&#39;d low.<br>
<br>
</div>Unless it just happens to be a site with lots of audio from around<br>
the arabophone world. &nbsp;*Across all sites* all non-standard Arabics are<br>
rare, but that doesn&#39;t apply to *specific* sites that really need to do<br>
language negotiation.</blockquote><div><br>Again, if we are talking about content negotiation, where we return a &#39;best fit&#39;, it is going to be a rare case where &#39;pga&#39; is supported but &#39;ar&#39; is not. So if one stops at &#39;ar&#39;, &quot;pga&quot; would never be seen, whether it were expressed as &quot;ar-pga&quot; or not.<br>
<br>If we are talking about real filtering (all documents that match the list), see below.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; Even if the server doesn&#39;t support extlang matching, you can get exactly<br>
&gt; what you said you want -- reliably -- with an explicit list:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; arz, arb, ar, arq, aao, bbz, abv, acy, adf, avl, afb, ayh, acw, ayl, acm,<br>
&gt; ary, ars, apc, ayp, acx, aec, ayn, ssh, ajp, apd, pga, acq, abh, aeb, auz<br>
<br>
</div>Which is just what I said. &nbsp;However, that isn&#39;t very stable with time<br>
as new Arabic varieties get encoded, not to mention extremely obnoxious<br>
to the user without special support in the client.</blockquote><div><br>But again, this is an extremely unusual query, since these languages are not mutually comprehensible. And the very fact that you excluded &quot;shu&quot; in your example means that you don&#39;t want all the things that could be encompassed by &quot;ar&quot;. If a new one shows up in the future, maybe you can understand it, maybe you can&#39;t and would want it excluded like &quot;shu&quot;. And what happens with other macrolanguages; will a speaker of gan be able to understand hakka? Better to just explicitly list the ones that are wanted.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; And this will work even if filtering isn&#39;t supported according to the spec;<br>
&gt; and note that we have no guarantee that the server will filter according to<br>
&gt; the spec -- based on the experience with Accept-Language, it&#39;s actually<br>
&gt; unlikely.<br>
<br>
</div>Most authors don&#39;t tag according to the spec either, so why have language<br>
tags at all? &nbsp;Search engines can and should ignore them; that doesn&#39;t<br>
mean they are worthless for other purposes. &nbsp;We design around the central<br>
point that people tag wisely and programs behave properly, which is not<br>
necessarily the best *implementation* strategy for special cases like<br>
search engines.</blockquote><div><br>That isn&#39;t my point. My point is that the explicit list is <br><ul><li>currently works.<br></li><li>handles everything that extlang could, with finer control<br></li><li>more powerful, since you can express things that extlang simply can&#39;t (eg &quot;ro, mo, no, nn, nb&quot;), and provide exactly the list you want.<br>
</li></ul></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; And really, what are the odds that someone wants that exact list<br>
&gt; above? And MUST have it supported with a short enumeration? And does<br>
&gt; not care if additional encompassed languages are added? &nbsp;According<br>
&gt; to information from Peter, the microlanguages are all independent<br>
&gt; languages, meaning that they are not mutually comprehensible.<br>
<br>
</div>The Arabic languages don&#39;t have full mutual intelligibility, but that&#39;s not<br>
the same as saying intelligibility is zero. &nbsp;I specifically picked Shuwa<br>
(Chadian/Nigerian) to exclude because it&#39;s very remote from most others.</blockquote><div><br>People keep confusing two orthogonal concepts, and I think this is at the root of the extlang issue.<br><ol><li>&quot;get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X&quot; (maybe to degree Y), and <br>
</li><li>&quot;get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X&quot;</li></ol>Number 1 is very interesting, and would be very useful; but it is not at all the same as #2. <br><br>If macrolanguage were defined as #1, I would probably be all in favor of baking it into extlangs. But is not at all the same.<br>
<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">&gt; - Languages that are *very* closely related do not have a macrolanguage<br>

&gt; (&quot;ro&quot; and &quot;mo&quot;).<br>
<br>
I know. &nbsp;That doesn&#39;t mean not to take advantage of the ISO 639-3<br>
information we do have.</blockquote><div><br>See comment on mutual intelligibility.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; I don&#39;t see extlang as any really practical benefit in filtering. It isn&#39;t<br>
&gt; useful in a great many other cases of related languages; if I want to use<br>
&gt; with nn, nb, no it doesn&#39;t help, nor with ro/mo, various varieties of<br>
&gt; German, and so on. Moreover, if a customer searches for &#39;ar&#39; and get a bunch<br>
&gt; of documents in shu, they are as or more likely to be unhappy as if they<br>
&gt; search for &#39;de&#39; documents and get back a bunch of &#39;gsw&#39;.<br>
<br>
</div>As I keep saying, *search* isn&#39;t the issue here. &nbsp;It&#39;s *negotiation<br>
by filtering*.</blockquote><div><br>See my discussion above.<br>&nbsp;<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; Putting some ISO language tags into the extlang position just because they<br>
&gt; have a macrolanguage is an unnecessary complication for implementations and<br>
&gt; represents a substantive, controversial change to RFC 4646.<br>
<br>
</div>*Now* it does, yes. &nbsp;All that shows is that I should have thought of<br>
this argument before giving in earlier.</blockquote><div><br>I didn&#39;t quite understand this.<br>&nbsp;<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
Values of beeta will give rise to dom! &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;John Cowan<br>
(5th/6th edition &#39;mv&#39; said this if you tried &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href="http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan" target="_blank">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><br>
to rename &#39;.&#39; or &#39;..&#39; entries; see &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a><br>
<a href="http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/odd.html" target="_blank">http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/odd.html</a>)<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Mark Davis scripsit:

>    1. "get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X" (maybe
>    to degree Y), and
>    2. "get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X"
> 
> Number 1 is very interesting, and would be very useful; but it is
> not at all the same as #2. If macrolanguage were defined as #1, I
> would probably be all in favor of baking it into extlangs. But is
> not at all the same, as many, many examples illustrate. Moreover,
> "mutual intelligibility" differs whether the content is written or
> spoken - forcing it to be baked into the syntax does not allow for
> that difference.

This is as much as to say, Because we can't have everything, let us
have nothing.  To which I reply, The best is the enemy of the good.

> Also, as I read your response, I think at least part of our apparent
> differences is the use of different terminology.

Indeed.

> I was using "content negotiation"  in the lookup sense, which is what is
> typically done with Accept-Language (not always, but typically).

That just turns out not to be the case.

> That is, the client is supplying a list of languages, perhaps with q
> values, and the expectation is that s/he will get one thing back. For
> example, a web page in one of the requested languages, but could be
> any sort of resource. And in such interactions, you do want lookup on
> the individual items; "ar" is not treated like "ar(-.*)"

If you look at RFC 2616, you'll see that what it describes in section
14.4 is filtering:

   A language-range matches a language-tag if it exactly equals the tag,
   or if it exactly equals a prefix of the tag such that the first tag
   character following the prefix is "-".

That's the standard.

Now, if we look at the documented behavior of the dominant web server,
Apache, at http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/content-negotiation.html ,
you'll find that it implements that standard.

It's true that if filtering fails to find anything, Apache provides
additional lookup-style fallback, thus:

	When a client requests a page on your server, but the server
	cannot find a single page that matches the Accept-language sent
	by the browser, the server will return either a "No Acceptable
	Variant" or "Multiple Choices" response to the client.

	[snipped explanation of configuring ultimate fallback]

	The server will also attempt to match language-subsets when
	no other match can be found. For example, if a client requests
	documents with the language en-GB for British English, the server
	is not normally allowed by the HTTP/1.1 standard to match that
	against a document that is marked as simply en. (Note that it is
	almost surely a configuration error to include en-GB and not en
	in the Accept-Language header, since it is very unlikely that
	a reader understands British English, but doesn't understand
	English in general. Unfortunately, many current clients have
	default configurations that resemble this.)

	However, if no other language match is possible and the server
	is about to return a "No Acceptable Variants" error or fallback
	to the LanguagePriority, the server will ignore the subset
	specification and match en-GB  against en documents. Implicitly,
	Apache will add the parent language to the client's acceptable
	language list with a very low quality value. But note that if
	the client requests "en-GB; q=0.9, fr; q=0.8", and the server
	has documents designated "en" and "fr", then the "fr" document
	will be returned. This is necessary to maintain compliance with
	the HTTP/1.1 specification and to work effectively with properly
	configured clients.

This is very clear that the use of lookup is an extension to provide
ultimate fallback for misconfigured browsers, *not* the standard behavior
in handling HTTP Accept-Language: headers.

> Again, if we are talking about content negotiation, where we return a 'best
> fit', it is going to be a rare case where 'pga' is supported but 'ar' is
> not. 

Consider a collection of oral histories by people in arabophone countries.
Standard Arabic would be rare among them, as most people can't speak it.

> Better to just explicitly list the ones that are wanted.

I may even agree with you here, but I don't think it's our business to
tell people how to configure their browsers.

> That isn't my point. My point is that the explicit list is
> 
>    - currently works.
>    - handles everything that extlang could, with finer control
>    - more powerful, since you can express things that extlang simply can't
>    (eg "ro, mo, no, nn, nb"), and provide exactly the list you want.

It's also painful to set up, less stable than the variety using
macrolanguages, and so on.

> > > Putting some ISO language tags into the extlang position just
> > > because they have a macrolanguage is an unnecessary complication
> > > for implementations and represents a substantive, controversial
> > > change to RFC 4646.
> >
> > *Now* it does, yes.  All that shows is that I should have thought of
> > this argument before giving in earlier.
> 
> I didn't quite understand this.

In other words, extlangs were the status quo before the teleconferences,
and if I had held out, they might well still be.  Because I gave in then
(prematurely, as I think now), no-extlangs is the status quo.

-- 
                Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes.
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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 3:54 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> >    1. "get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X" (maybe
> >    to degree Y), and
> >    2. "get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X"
> >
> > Number 1 is very interesting, and would be very useful; but it is
> > not at all the same as #2. If macrolanguage were defined as #1, I
> > would probably be all in favor of baking it into extlangs. But is
> > not at all the same, as many, many examples illustrate. Moreover,
> > "mutual intelligibility" differs whether the content is written or
> > spoken - forcing it to be baked into the syntax does not allow for
> > that difference.
>
> This is as much as to say, Because we can't have everything, let us
> have nothing.  To which I reply, The best is the enemy of the good.


This is a key issue.

If you are claiming that "sharing macrolanguages" are a good or at least
reasonable proxy for "mutually comprehensible", then we'd really need some
figures. Especially since where the languages are not mutually
comprehensible it will cause problems.

   1. What percentage of languages sharing macrolanguages are mutually
   comprehensible?
   2. How many other languages that don't share macrolanguages are mutually
   comprehensible?

Both of these can have different figures for written vs spoken.

*If you don't have the data for this, you have NO justification to say that
we'd be better off with extlang. Moreover, from what I understand from
Peter, #1 is low, which is very bad.*

-- 
Mark

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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 3:54 PM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Mark Davis scripsit:<br>
<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;1. &quot;get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X&quot; (maybe<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;to degree Y), and<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;2. &quot;get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X&quot;<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt;<br>
&gt; Number 1 is very interesting, and would be very useful; but it is<br>
&gt; not at all the same as #2. If macrolanguage were defined as #1, I<br>
&gt; would probably be all in favor of baking it into extlangs. But is<br>
&gt; not at all the same, as many, many examples illustrate. Moreover,<br>
&gt; &quot;mutual intelligibility&quot; differs whether the content is written or<br>
&gt; spoken - forcing it to be baked into the syntax does not allow for<br>
&gt; that difference.<br>
<br>
</div>This is as much as to say, Because we can&#39;t have everything, let us<br>
have nothing. &nbsp;To which I reply, The best is the enemy of the good.</blockquote><div><br>This is a key issue.<br><br>If you are claiming that &quot;sharing macrolanguages&quot; are a good or at least reasonable proxy for &quot;mutually comprehensible&quot;, then we&#39;d really need some figures. Especially since where the languages are not mutually comprehensible it will cause problems.<br>
<ol><li>What percentage of languages sharing macrolanguages are mutually comprehensible?</li><li>How many other languages that don&#39;t share macrolanguages are mutually comprehensible?</li></ol>Both of these can have different figures for written vs spoken.<br>
<br><i>If you don&#39;t have the data for this, you have NO justification to say that we&#39;d be better off with extlang. Moreover, from what I understand from Peter, #1 is low, which is very bad.</i><br> </div><br></div>
-- <br>Mark

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Mark Davis scripsit:

> If you are claiming that "sharing macrolanguages" are a good or at least
> reasonable proxy for "mutually comprehensible", then we'd really need some
> figures. Especially since where the languages are not mutually
> comprehensible it will cause problems.

You ask for more than can be had, since "mutually comprehensible" is itself
very much a matter of degree.  There are dialects of English (not creoles)
that I find very difficult to understand.

-- 
"Well, I'm back."  --Sam        John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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Pick whatever degree you want. At that degree:

   1. What percentage of languages sharing macrolanguages are mutually
   comprehensible?
   2. How many other languages that don't share macrolanguages are mutually
   comprehensible?

Both of these can have different figures for written vs spoken.

If you don't have any data to back up your assertion that "The best is the
enemy of the good."....

Mark

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 4:44 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> > If you are claiming that "sharing macrolanguages" are a good or at least
> > reasonable proxy for "mutually comprehensible", then we'd really need
> some
> > figures. Especially since where the languages are not mutually
> > comprehensible it will cause problems.
>
> You ask for more than can be had, since "mutually comprehensible" is itself
> very much a matter of degree.  There are dialects of English (not creoles)
> that I find very difficult to understand.
>
> --
> "Well, I'm back."  --Sam        John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
>



-- 
Mark

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Pick whatever degree you want. At that degree:<br><ol><li>What percentage of languages sharing macrolanguages are mutually comprehensible?</li><li>How many other languages that don&#39;t share macrolanguages are mutually comprehensible?</li>
</ol>Both of these can have different figures for written vs spoken.<br><br>If you don&#39;t have any data to back up your assertion that &quot;The best is the enemy of the good.&quot;....<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 4:44 PM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Mark Davis scripsit:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; If you are claiming that &quot;sharing macrolanguages&quot; are a good or at least<br>
&gt; reasonable proxy for &quot;mutually comprehensible&quot;, then we&#39;d really need some<br>
&gt; figures. Especially since where the languages are not mutually<br>
&gt; comprehensible it will cause problems.<br>
<br>
</div>You ask for more than can be had, since &quot;mutually comprehensible&quot; is itself<br>
very much a matter of degree. &nbsp;There are dialects of English (not creoles)<br>
that I find very difficult to understand.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
&quot;Well, I&#39;m back.&quot; &nbsp;--Sam &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt;<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> If you don't have any data to back up your assertion that "The best is the
> enemy of the good."....

So your argument is that languages are *less* likely to be mutually
intelligible (to some degree) if they are co-members of a macrolanguage
than if they are not?

All I need is to show that the tendency is the other way: that (a)
getting Cantonese when you want Mandarin is no worse than getting
Portuguese when you want French (i.e. both are equally bad); and (b)
that getting Egyptian Arabic when you want Sa'idi Arabic is better
than getting English when you want Greek.

-- 
One Word to write them all,             John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
  One Access to find them,              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
One Excel to count them all,
  And thus to Windows bind them.                --Mike Champion
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Hi -

As co-chair...

Gentlemen, you have been repeating yourselves for quite
some time now.  Unless you have something truly novel
to say, I recommend restraint in posting.

Randy

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat May 24 00:37:29 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Randy Presuhn 2008-05-22 10.26:
> Q1: The current draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltr=
u-4646bis-14.txt)
>     does away with the "extlang" production. Possible responses: (pick ON=
E)
>         A - I like this.
>         B - I can live with this.
>         C - I object to this.   =

>   =


C - I object to this.

> Q2: We could go back to using "extlang" in the grammar, requiring its
>     use for representing "encompassed" languages that are being added.
>     Possible responses:  (pick ONE)
>         A - I would like this.
>         B - I could live with this.
>         C - I would object to this.
>   =


A - I would like this.

While I agree with Karen that it is a bit of a false choice, I also =

agree with her that it is the identication that it is important, and I =

think that hierarchies is an very important method for identifying =

languges (as is evident for the two encompassed langauges of Norwegian: =

In the RFC, both names begins with the word "Norwegian" =3D> "Norweigan =

Bokm=E5l" and "Norwegian Nynorsk" - despite that the common name amongst =

Norwegians are only "Bokm=E5l" and "Nynorsk".)

(One sentence, right?) ;-)
-- =

leif halvard silli
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat May 24 01:17:07 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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John Cowan 2008-05-24 02.11:
> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> > If you don't have any data to back up your assertion that "The best is the
> > enemy of the good."....
>
> So your argument is that languages are *less* likely to be mutually
> intelligible (to some degree) if they are co-members of a macrolanguage
> than if they are not?
>
> All I need is to show that the tendency is the other way: that (a)
> getting Cantonese when you want Mandarin is no worse than getting
> Portuguese when you want French (i.e. both are equally bad); and (b)
> that getting Egyptian Arabic when you want Sa'idi Arabic is better
> than getting English when you want Greek.
>   

My support to John here.

At the same time, I think that the really important and compelling 
argument is *identification*.

I feel that Mark is willing to accept semantically less clear 
identification in order to, technically, be better able to prevent 
(sometimes) unwanted fallback. Thus if I, in my argumentation have been 
eager to secure fallback, Mark has been very eager to prevent it. These 
are two sides of the same coin.

However, some unwanted fallback is always unavoidable, even across 
un-encompassed languages.  And I agree with John that fallback within 
the same macrolangauge very often is wanted - or at least totally 
acceptable and understandable.

The one argument against extlang I would bring - though I don't know if 
it is an argument against anything - it is merely a fact: In the talk 
about dropping extlang, it was set up as the ultimate goal taht 'zh' 
would fall out of use, sometime in the very distant future.

Contrary to this, the extlang is almost like a blessing of 'zh' and 
'ar'. And if extlang had been introduced to Norwegian as well, then it 
would have made 'no' much more used. I am not sure that this is bad, 
though.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Hoi,
The current situation is that the biggest amount of content on the Internet
is not tagged. Languages that are "less and least resourced" can not be
found because standards and software both do not acknowledge them. There is
a glimmer of a hierarchy in extlangs but in reality they are there to
explain historic facts and make all these "hierarchies" seem to be the same
type, something they are not.

In my understanding it is only in the ISO-639-6 that a true hierarchy of
linguistic entities becomes available. When you consider the complexity and
size of this work, it will take years to get to grips with it. The current
tools ie mail and mailing lists are completely inadequate to the task for
the LTRU to deal with this.

I feel that this is a true committee and the result is likely to show it. If
that is the best that is on offer then so be it. In a way it is business as
usual and the biggest advantage is that it still prevents a move forward
warts and all.
Thanks,
      Gerard

On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no> wrote:

> John Cowan 2008-05-24 02.11:
> > Mark Davis scripsit:
> >
> > > If you don't have any data to back up your assertion that "The best is
> the
> > > enemy of the good."....
> >
> > So your argument is that languages are *less* likely to be mutually
> > intelligible (to some degree) if they are co-members of a macrolanguage
> > than if they are not?
> >
> > All I need is to show that the tendency is the other way: that (a)
> > getting Cantonese when you want Mandarin is no worse than getting
> > Portuguese when you want French (i.e. both are equally bad); and (b)
> > that getting Egyptian Arabic when you want Sa'idi Arabic is better
> > than getting English when you want Greek.
> >
>
> My support to John here.
>
> At the same time, I think that the really important and compelling
> argument is *identification*.
>
> I feel that Mark is willing to accept semantically less clear
> identification in order to, technically, be better able to prevent
> (sometimes) unwanted fallback. Thus if I, in my argumentation have been
> eager to secure fallback, Mark has been very eager to prevent it. These
> are two sides of the same coin.
>
> However, some unwanted fallback is always unavoidable, even across
> un-encompassed languages.  And I agree with John that fallback within
> the same macrolangauge very often is wanted - or at least totally
> acceptable and understandable.
>
> The one argument against extlang I would bring - though I don't know if
> it is an argument against anything - it is merely a fact: In the talk
> about dropping extlang, it was set up as the ultimate goal taht 'zh'
> would fall out of use, sometime in the very distant future.
>
> Contrary to this, the extlang is almost like a blessing of 'zh' and
> 'ar'. And if extlang had been introduced to Norwegian as well, then it
> would have made 'no' much more used. I am not sure that this is bad,
> though.
> --
> leif halvard silli
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

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Hoi,<br>The current situation is that the biggest amount of content on the Internet is not tagged. Languages that are &quot;less and least resourced&quot; can not be found because standards and software both do not acknowledge them. There is a glimmer of a hierarchy in extlangs but in reality they are there to explain historic facts and make all these &quot;hierarchies&quot; seem to be the same type, something they are not.<br>
<br>In my understanding it is only in the ISO-639-6 that a true hierarchy of linguistic entities becomes available. When you consider the complexity and size of this work, it will take years to get to grips with it. The current tools ie mail and mailing lists are completely inadequate to the task for the LTRU to deal with this.<br>
<br>I feel that this is a true committee and the result is likely to show it. If that is the best that is on offer then so be it. In a way it is business as usual and the biggest advantage is that it still prevents a move forward warts and all.<br>
Thanks,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Gerard<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Leif Halvard Silli &lt;<a href="mailto:lhs@malform.no">lhs@malform.no</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
John Cowan 2008-05-24 02.11:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; Mark Davis scripsit:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If you don&#39;t have any data to back up your assertion that &quot;The best is the<br>
&gt; &gt; enemy of the good.&quot;....<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So your argument is that languages are *less* likely to be mutually<br>
&gt; intelligible (to some degree) if they are co-members of a macrolanguage<br>
&gt; than if they are not?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; All I need is to show that the tendency is the other way: that (a)<br>
&gt; getting Cantonese when you want Mandarin is no worse than getting<br>
&gt; Portuguese when you want French (i.e. both are equally bad); and (b)<br>
&gt; that getting Egyptian Arabic when you want Sa&#39;idi Arabic is better<br>
&gt; than getting English when you want Greek.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>My support to John here.<br>
<br>
At the same time, I think that the really important and compelling<br>
argument is *identification*.<br>
<br>
I feel that Mark is willing to accept semantically less clear<br>
identification in order to, technically, be better able to prevent<br>
(sometimes) unwanted fallback. Thus if I, in my argumentation have been<br>
eager to secure fallback, Mark has been very eager to prevent it. These<br>
are two sides of the same coin.<br>
<br>
However, some unwanted fallback is always unavoidable, even across<br>
un-encompassed languages. &nbsp;And I agree with John that fallback within<br>
the same macrolangauge very often is wanted - or at least totally<br>
acceptable and understandable.<br>
<br>
The one argument against extlang I would bring - though I don&#39;t know if<br>
it is an argument against anything - it is merely a fact: In the talk<br>
about dropping extlang, it was set up as the ultimate goal taht &#39;zh&#39;<br>
would fall out of use, sometime in the very distant future.<br>
<br>
Contrary to this, the extlang is almost like a blessing of &#39;zh&#39; and<br>
&#39;ar&#39;. And if extlang had been introduced to Norwegian as well, then it<br>
would have made &#39;no&#39; much more used. I am not sure that this is bad,<br>
though.<br>
--<br>
<font color="#888888">leif halvard silli<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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Mark Davis 2008-05-22 08.57:
> I'm writing off nobody based on what language they speak and write.
>   =


I did not mean it like that. I only meant that my experience as =

"encompassed language user" is relevant. Somewhat opposed to what you =

say below:

> What I'm saying is that the relationship between no and nn/nb, in terms of
> mutual comprehensibility, are not typical of other macrolanguage
> relationships, based on conversations with Peter Constable, who played a =
key
> role in the development of the macrolanguage concept. If you have evidence
> to the contrary for the other macrolanguages (see all of
> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/macrolanguages.asp), it would be good to bring
> that forward.
>   =

Doesn't Cantonese users understand Mandarin? And most Arabian speakers =

can deal with Standard Arabic? How different the encompassed languages =

are isn't necessarily relevant. The relevant thing is that they are =

conceived as one language in some important areas. Education of some =

sort is necessary to maintain intelligibility and command of more than =

one encompassed language. (This is even the case for Norwegian.)

> > But you should not hide that 'zh' is perfect for Cantonese as well. It =
is
> > the best choice for Cantonese, if you want backward compatibility.
>
>
> Not at all. When filtering for just Cantonese, you absolutely don't want =
to
> get Mandarin content as well, since you would be swamped with irrelevant
> results. If you want Cantonese + Mandarin, you should ask for it. When do=
ing
> fallback for Bokoto, you don't want to get Gbaya-Mbodomo. If you want Bok=
oto
> OR Gbaya-Mbodomo you should ask for it.
>   =


I understand this technological wish. But what do the Cantonese users =

wish to search for?  (The most important thing, anyhow, is to provide a =

Cantonese interface.)

What I said before is important: Cantonese if available, Mandarin else. =

I am much more concerned with that the encompassed minority langauge =

user would not get even the majority encompassed language resources.

> You seem to think of "no-nno" or "no-nob" as a convenient way to get
> automatic fallback. Someone might equivalently think that "ro-mol" is a
> convenient way to get fallback from Moldavian to Romanian, or that "tl-fi=
l"
> is a convenient way to get fallback from Filipino to Tagalog (or "fil-tgl"
> for the reverse), or "de-gsw" to get fallback from Swiss German to German,
> or any number of other cases. After all, those relationships are far clos=
er
> than the vast majority of relationships between macrolanguages and
> encompassed languages.
>   =


As you know, many tag Norwegian texts as 'no-no'. So it is obviously =

that when 'no-no' falls back to 'no', then of course 'no-nn' or 'no-nno' =

would fall back just as well. Why should I not believe so?

> But in practice, having such compound tags complicates matters more than =
it
> helps, as detailed in the document I sent out.

In the draft you sent out you start by saying that "The arguments for =

extlang are that they give superior results,". However, this is an =

exaggeration of the standpoint that I for intance have. First, I assume =

you meant "technical superior". Well, no, I can understand that using =

short tags is easier to deal with, technically. And therefore superior =

to extlang. (In my testing with Apache, 'nn' and 'nb' was easier to deal =

with than 'no-nyn' and 'no-bok'.)

But then a problem is that the users "in the wild" still are tagging =

Norwegian as if we had an extlang system.


> > And in my view, this "Leopard" solution for Nynorsk is exactly what you
> > propose for Cantonese.  What you propose would, in a very likely worst =
case,
> > cause that selecting Cantonese leads the user to get English instead of
> > Mandarine when Cantonese is lacking.
>
>
> What you are really asking for is for a reasonable fallback strategy that=
 is
> likely to get you to a language that you want.

I am *not* asking for something individualistic, though.

Fine, the users should be able to customize from A to Z. And fallback =

strategies should be developed. But *that* is a different, allthough =

very related, subject!

I care just as much about "fall forward" as "fallback".  For instance, a =

developer must also be able to trust that things works. He must be able =

to use the Macrolangauge tag in the trust that it will "fall forward" to =

the encompassed languages.

How did I find out about the Nynorsk issues of OS X?

Well, I translated an application to Nynorsk. In Tiger, which only had =

'no' (Imagine that it only had 'zh') with Bokm=E5l content, but =

"Norwegian" as label, it was fine. I used the 'no' tag, which said =

'Norwegian'. (Imagine that I tagged something Cantonese as 'zh'). Then =

suddenly in Leopard, using the same tag, it turned up in the interface =

as 'Bokm=E5l'. (Imagine that 'Cantonese' suddenly turned up as =

'Mandarin'.) And since you are so wary about users that complain: This =

lead to user reactions. While there were no reactions under Tiger.

Macrolanguages represent a market. And if you say that 'zh' means =

Mandarin, or 'no' means 'Bokm=E5l', then you might confuse both =

Mandarin/Cantonese/Bokm=E5l/Nynorsk users.

The compatibility things that I spoke about has to do with a) being able =

to view a resource both as Chinese/Macrolangauge and as =

Cantonese/Encompassed lnagues. b) Having both the Macrolanguage tag and =

one's own Encompassed language tag at disposal.

>  After all, exactly the same
> situation applies for the Moldavian speaker who would rather see Romanian
> than English, and they have no macrolanguage relationship. For that matte=
r,
> someone might think that "da-nor-nno-nob" is the answer for them, since t=
hey
> can understand Danish better than English.
>   =


Moldovian and Romanian is perhaps best regardes as the same language.

But anyhow, I do not mean or say that the Macrolanguage conscept solves =

all problems, such as that of Moldovan and Romanian.

> The solution is not to complicate language tags. This is looking in the
> wrong place for the solution. What you really want are provided in
> LanguagePriorityLists, where you can precisely specify exactly which
> languages you can understand, and in what order of preference.
>   =


According to you, then, Norwegian has the perefect situation. We have =

'no', 'nn' and 'nb'. The only thing - if I interpret you corectly - that =

could have made it more perfect, was if 'no' meant Bokm=E5l and 'nn' meant =

Nynorsk.

However, this hasn't developed perfect. The fact is that there are lots =

of hierarchical tags around - de-DE, de-AT, en-GB etc. And people look =

and deduct and come up with 'no-nn' and 'no-nb' all by themselves. (Now, =

in this round, I will not repeat that this should be permitted - I just =

use it as an example.)

The problem is, that there is a "natural" tendency to think that =

Macrolanguage =3D majority language.  Not in a semantic sense, but in a =

practical sense. You convey this yourself.

And - if we can keep out those very few (as I see it) encompassed =

languages that do not need to compete (Read: fallback/negotiate) with =

another encompassed language, then the fact is that we need to perform =

fallback/language negotiation between encompassed languages of the same =

macrolanguage.

And this is a special kind of language negotiation. For a small =

macrolanguage like NOrwegian, we suddenly get 3 options. If instead we =

had extlang for Norwegian, we would in reality only have two options.


No, it is very important to realise the need for Macrolangauge support. =

The Macrolanguage tag must be free to be used by anyone who want to =

reach more than those that are tagged as belloing to only one spesific =

encompassaded language.

> > I am not surprised that you say so.
> > Basically, for English the "remove from right" language fallback
> > negotiation method works all the time.
>
>
> Ad hominem attacks are hardly a way to convince anyone. I've had a
> reasonably long career devoted to software internationalization, with
> *the* goal being to let people be able to use their languages on
> computers no matter what language. To accuse me or any others on this lis=
t of only caring about English makes me, let's just say, irritated.
>   =

I did not put it exactly that way. And let's say I was a little =

irritated for what I saw as lack of trying to understand what I meant.

What you say is that fallback with tags that are longer than two =

subtags, is complicated.

But the fact is that such long tags will almost solely be needed for =

Chinese. For the other macrolanguages, the situation is not that =

complicated. And thus will yield more positive results - since the tags =

will have the same lenght as for example typical tags for British =

Englsih, which as we know, works well.

> Our position on extlang is the result of fairly extensive software testing
> of a number of different models of language fallback, filtering, and
> matching. In our experience in implementations it causes many more proble=
ms
> than it solves, and is especially negative for the minority languages, ev=
en
> more so than the predominant ones. =


How have you counted the negative things?

I believe full well that you have tested. But it is one thing to look at =

it from the outside. What you think is needed, might not be what is =

really needed.

Big corps with 100 of languages, is though a very particular breed. I =

have in mind more typical "within the same country" negotiation between =

to encompassed languages.

> The macrolanguage relationships are
> published in the registry, so it is trivial for any implementation to
> achieve exactly the same effects as extlang if desired for their
> application. (Although as I've said, in general the results would not be
> particularly good, because the question of whether A is a good fallback f=
or
> B is simply orthogonal to the question of whether A is a macrolanguage for
> B.)
>   =


I have allready been told that it is very important to read things out =

of the tags without needing to look into the registry. And I agree. That =

is a basic, and very good thing.

> If you have implementation experience with a variety of different models =
--
> covering all the combinations with scripts and countries -- dealing with
> closely related languages like ro/mo -- and handling both filtering and
> lookup -- if you have some basis for your statements, you should bring th=
at
> forward, or encourage others to do so.
>   =


I do at least have some experience with the model you recommend, I feel.
-- =

leif halvard sillli
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I'm somewhat confused. Romans(c)h and Rhaeto-Romance are simply
alternate names for one and the same language. So I'm not sure
why there is talking about a narrowing or change.

Regards,    Martin.


At 11:47 08/05/23, Peter Constable wrote:
>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Randy Presuhn
>
>
>> > The meaning of rm has changed in january 2007
>
>
>> The descriptions taken by themselves make this look like a narrowing
>> of the category.  Was this the intent?
>
>The change in the LSTR matched changes made by the ISO 639 JAC. As part of 
>evaluating ISO/FDIS 639-3 and considering how rm/roh should relate to 
>entries in Ethnologue, while the MARC language code list did indicate that 
>roh was used as a collective for Ladin and Romansh, it was clear that there 
>were many other uses of rm that were specifically Romansh, and the JAC 
>representatives from LOC and other libraries indicated they considered it 
>appropriate in ISO 639 to clarify the denotation as Romansh.
>
>Keep in mind: prior to publication of ISO 639-3, the denotation of IDs in 
>ISO 639 was documented only in terms of certain names, which in general are 
>not alone an adequate means of documentation. Part of the change with ISO 
>639-3 was to begin to document denotations in terms of a larger body of 
>information of a more encyclopedic nature, something that was unavoidable 
>in determining how the existing entries should relate to the large 
>collection of new entries that would be added to the code. This was simply 
>one of many decisions regarding more specific determination of denotation 
>for existing entries that were explicitly or tacitly made.
>
>Btw, this change was made before ISO 639-3 was approved; IMO, it is not a 
>case of a macrolanguage being added.
>
>
>
>Peter
>_______________________________________________
>Ltru mailing list
>Ltru@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 09:43:25 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Just to make sure that we're talking about content negotiation, eg using
Accept-Language to get the language for a website, where "zh" means "zh" or
anything starting with it. The key difference between the models is
identification. With the extlang model, I can't *restrict* the match to what
I want without really jumping through hoops.
Here's an example. Let's suppose that content tagged with "fr", "gsw", and
"yue" (or "zh-yue") are available, and nothing else. Let's suppose also
that I understand German, French, and Mandarin, but not any of the
following.

   - gct Colonia Tovar German
   - geh Hutterite German
   - gmh Middle High German
   - gml Middle Low German
   - goh Old High German
   - gsw Swiss German
   - nds Low German
   -
   - cjy Jinyu Chinese
   - cpx Pu-Xian Chinese
   - czh Huizhou Chinese
   - czo Min Zhong Chinese
   - gan Gan Chinese
   - hak Hakka Chinese
   - hsn Xiang Chinese
   - mnp Min Bei Chinese
   - nan Min Nan Chinese
   - wuu Wu Chinese
   - yue Yue Chinese

Both models

   - If I specify "de fr", I'll get "fr" under either model. Fine, I can
   understand "fr".
   - If I wanted to also request Swiss German as well as German, I would use
   "gsw de fr", and get "gsw".
   - I only get "gsw" if I request it. That's good, because I don't
   understand "gsw".

No Extlang Model

   - If I specify "zh cmn fr", I'll get "fr" under either model. Fine, I can
   understand "fr".
   - If I wanted to also request Cantonese as well as Mardarin, I would use
   "yue cmn zh fr" and get "yue"
   - I only get "yue" if I request it. That's good, because I don't
   understand "yue".
   - I need to include "zh", and will for the indefinite future because the
   vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.
   - I might get content tagged "zh" but which is actually "yue" but the
   chances of that are extremely remote.

Extlang Model

   - If I specify "zh zh-cmn fr", I would get "zh-yue". Broken, I don't
   understand Cantonese!
   - In order to specify that I want "zh" or "cmn" but no other languages, I
   have to use "zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0, zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0,
   zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0 zh
   zh-cmn fr".
   - Moreover, as you said, if another encompassed language shows up for zh,
   I could get that inadvertently unless I add this to my list.
   - Again, I need to include "zh", and will for the indefinite future
   because the vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.

Mark

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 5:11 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> > If you don't have any data to back up your assertion that "The best is
> the
> > enemy of the good."....
>
> So your argument is that languages are *less* likely to be mutually
> intelligible (to some degree) if they are co-members of a macrolanguage
> than if they are not?
>
> All I need is to show that the tendency is the other way: that (a)
> getting Cantonese when you want Mandarin is no worse than getting
> Portuguese when you want French (i.e. both are equally bad); and (b)
> that getting Egyptian Arabic when you want Sa'idi Arabic is better
> than getting English when you want Greek.
>
> --
> One Word to write them all,             John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
>  One Access to find them,              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> One Excel to count them all,
>  And thus to Windows bind them.                --Mike Champion
>



-- 
Mark

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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Just to make sure that we&#39;re talking about content negotiation, eg using Accept-Language to get the language for a website, where &quot;zh&quot; means &quot;zh&quot; or anything starting with it.&nbsp;The key difference between the models is identification. With the extlang model, I can&#39;t *restrict* the match to what I want without really jumping through hoops.</span><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Here&#39;s an example. Let&#39;s suppose that content tagged with &quot;fr&quot;, &quot;gsw&quot;, and &quot;yue&quot; (or &quot;zh-yue&quot;) are available, and nothing else. Let&#39;s suppose also that&nbsp;I understand German, French, and Mandarin, but not any of the following.</span></div>
<div><ul><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">gct&nbsp;Colonia Tovar German</span></span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">geh&nbsp;Hutterite German</span></span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">gmh&nbsp;Middle High German</span></span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">gml&nbsp;Middle Low German</span></span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">goh&nbsp;Old High German</span></span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">gsw&nbsp;Swiss German</span></span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">nds&nbsp;Low German</span></span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "></span></li><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">cjy</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">	</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Jinyu Chinese</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">cpx</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">	</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Pu-Xian Chinese</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">czh</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">	</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Huizhou Chinese</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">czo</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">	</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Min Zhong Chinese</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">gan</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">	</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Gan Chinese</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">hak</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">	</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Hakka Chinese</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">hsn</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">	</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Xiang Chinese</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">mnp</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="white-space: pre;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">&nbsp;</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Min Bei Chinese</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">nan</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">	</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Min Nan Chinese</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">wuu</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">	</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Wu Chinese</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">yue</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">	</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Yue Chinese</span></li>
</ul></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Both models<br></span></div><div><div><ul><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">If I specify &quot;de fr&quot;, I&#39;ll get &quot;fr&quot; under either model.&nbsp;</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: italic;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Fine, I can understand &quot;fr&quot;.</span></span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">If I wanted to also request Swiss German as well as German, I would use &quot;gsw de fr&quot;, and get &quot;gsw&quot;.<br></span></li><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">I only get &quot;gsw&quot; if I request it.&nbsp;</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: italic;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">That&#39;s good, because I don&#39;t understand &quot;gsw&quot;.</span></span></li>
</ul><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">No Extlang Model</span></div><div><div><ul><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">If I specify &quot;zh cmn fr&quot;, I&#39;ll get &quot;fr&quot; under either model. </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: italic;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Fine, I can understand &quot;fr&quot;.</span></span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">If I wanted to also request Cantonese as well as Mardarin, I would use &quot;yue cmn zh fr&quot; and get &quot;yue&quot;</span></li><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">I only get &quot;yue&quot; if I request it.</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: italic;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"> That&#39;s good, because I don&#39;t understand &quot;yue&quot;.</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br>
</span></li><li>I need to include &quot;zh&quot;, and will for the indefinite future because the vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.</li><li>I might get content tagged &quot;zh&quot; but which is actually &quot;yue&quot; but the chances of that are extremely remote.</li>
</ul><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Extlang Model</span></div></div><ul><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">If I specify &quot;zh zh-cmn fr&quot;, I would get &quot;zh-yue&quot;. <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold;">Broken</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">, I don&#39;t understand Cantonese!</span></span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">In order to specify that I want &quot;zh&quot; or &quot;cmn&quot; but no other languages, I have to use&nbsp;&quot;zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0, zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0, zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0&nbsp;zh zh-cmn fr&quot;.</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Moreover, as you said, if another encompassed language shows up for zh, I could get that inadvertently unless I add this to my list.</span></li><li>Again, I need to include &quot;zh&quot;, and will for the indefinite future because the&nbsp;vast majority of&nbsp;Mandarin content is tagged that way.<br>
</li></ul><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Mark</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br></span><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 5:11 PM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Mark Davis scripsit:<br></span>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br>
&gt; If you don&#39;t have any data to back up your assertion that &quot;The best is the<br>
&gt; enemy of the good.&quot;....<br><br></span>

</div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">So your argument is that languages are *less* likely to be mutually<br>
intelligible (to some degree) if they are co-members of a macrolanguage<br>
than if they are not?<br><br>
All I need is to show that the tendency is the other way: that (a)<br>
getting Cantonese when you want Mandarin is no worse than getting<br>
Portuguese when you want French (i.e. both are equally bad); and (b)<br>
that getting Egyptian Arabic when you want Sa&#39;idi Arabic is better<br>
than getting English when you want Greek.<br></span>

<font color="#888888"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br>
--<br>
One Word to write them all, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; John Cowan &lt;</span><a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">cowan@ccil.org</span></a><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">&gt;<br>

 &nbsp;One Access to find them, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><a href="http://www.ccil.org/~cowan" target="_blank"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</span></a><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br>

One Excel to count them all,<br>
 &nbsp;And thus to Windows bind them. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;--Mike Champion<br></span>
</font></blockquote></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
</span></div></div>

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Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 09:43:32 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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While John and I disagree on the outcome of the conversation, I think he has
raised a legitimate issue. We have focused in on lookup for most of our
discussions, and he raised the different issues of filtering and content
negotiation.
Mark

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
wrote:

> Hi -
>
> As co-chair...
>
> Gentlemen, you have been repeating yourselves for quite
> some time now.  Unless you have something truly novel
> to say, I recommend restraint in posting.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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While John and I disagree on the outcome of the conversation, I think he has raised a legitimate issue. We have focused in on lookup for most of our discussions, and he raised the different issues of filtering and content negotiation.<div>
<br></div><div>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Randy Presuhn &lt;<a href="mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Hi -<br>
<br>
As co-chair...<br>
<br>
Gentlemen, you have been repeating yourselves for quite<br>
some time now. &nbsp;Unless you have something truly novel<br>
to say, I recommend restraint in posting.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Randy<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
</div>

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_______________________________________________
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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
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To: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang  and stability of macrolanguage
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Martin Duerst scripsit:

> I'm somewhat confused. Romans(c)h and Rhaeto-Romance are simply
> alternate names for one and the same language. So I'm not sure
> why there is talking about a narrowing or change.

The term "Rhaeto-Romance" has two senses: one in which it is synonymous
with "Rumansch", the other in which it names the subfamily containing
Rumansch, Friulian, and Ladin.  The 639-2/RA was clarifying that it
intended the first sense.  The second sense is very common in English,
as googling for "the Rhaeto-Romance languages" will quickly show.

-- 
By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall     cowan@ccil.org
have neither the Ring nor me!  --Frodo          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Gerard Meijssen scripsit:

> In my understanding it is only in the ISO-639-6 that a true hierarchy of
> linguistic entities becomes available. 

It's a true hierarchy, all right, but it's a genetic hierarchy, which is
only loosely connected with mutual intelligibility.  Sometimes closely
related languages are mutually intelligible with only small adjustments,
sometimes the barriers between them are absolute.  Consider my comments
about English/Scots and the Frisian languages, which form a sister group in
genetic terms:

	Evidence from earlier stages of the languages would lead us
	to expect all three Frisians to be quite similar and the most
	similar language outside the group to be English -- but West
	Frisian has been so influenced by Dutch, North Frisian by High
	German and Low Saxon and Danish, Saterfrisian by High German and
	Low Saxon, and English by French and Latin that the connections
	are pretty much obscured.

-- 
In my last lifetime,                            John Cowan
I believed in reincarnation;                    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
in this lifetime,                               cowan@ccil.org
I don't.  --Thiagi
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Hi -

As co-chair...

> From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "Martin Duerst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 11:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Macrolanguage usage
...
> I ask the co-chairs to settle this matter with a third consensus-call 
> question:
> 
> Q3: If we did go back to using "extlang," we could combine this subtag
>     with the region subtag, and require that at most one of the two be
>     used in a single tag.  Possible responses:  (pick ONE)
>         A - I would like this.
>         B - I could live with this.
>         C - I would object to this.
...

So far, I have not seen enough support for such an approach on this
mailing list to merit a consensus call, particularly since technical
opposition has already been voiced.  Until / unless significant support
appears, I'm simply considering the issue "rejected."

Randy

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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

Q1 - B
Q2 - A

Randy

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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> Doesn't Cantonese users understand Mandarin? And most Arabian speakers
> can deal with Standard Arabic?

In both cases the answer is "no, not unless they have been educated
through the medium of the standard languages."  Currently there is
nowhere where you can be educated through the medium of any non-standard
Chinese or Arabic variety (with the marginal exception of Hong Kong),
so this amounts to "not unless they have been educated".  (This obviously
excludes people in other countries who speak a non-standard variety but
have been educated through the medium of some other language altogether.)

-- 
Babies are born as a result of the              John Cowan
mating between men and women, and most          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
men and women enjoy mating.                     cowan@ccil.org
    --Isaac Asimov in Earth: Our Crowded Spaceship
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang  and stability of macrolanguage
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> From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp]


> I'm somewhat confused. Romans(c)h and Rhaeto-Romance are simply
> alternate names for one and the same language. So I'm not sure
> why there is talking about a narrowing or change.

Indeed, there isn't. There was potential to consider it a narrowing based on how MARC had used roh, but the JAC decided that the denotation was simply Romansh; the name change itself was driven by the fact that the Swiss government uses "Romansh" as the English-language name for that language.



Peter
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli


> How different the encompassed languages
> are isn't necessarily relevant. The relevant thing is that they are
> conceived as one language in some important areas. Education of some
> sort is necessary to maintain intelligibility and command of more than
> one encompassed language.

Please note very carefully: the definition of macrolanguage entails that the range of varieties is treated as a single language in some application context. That does *not* entail that the encompassed varieties are mutually intelligible, or that there is any one encompassed variety that is intelligible to all the others. Certainly no claim is made in ISO 639 that either is true. Whether or not either is true for any macrolanguage is an empirical question.


Peter

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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Doug Ewell


> I ask the co-chairs to settle this matter with a third consensus-call
> question:
>
> Q3: If we did go back to using "extlang," we could combine this subtag
>     with the region subtag, and require that at most one of the two be
>     used in a single tag.  Possible responses:  (pick ONE)
>         A - I would like this.
>         B - I could live with this.
>         C - I would object to this.
>
> Remember that we did create such a "Leif rule" for the purpose of
> allowing two-letter extlangs, as in "no-nn", then:

If the question is whether to allow tags of the form "no-nn", then my answer is

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCc

I would strongly object.


Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Mark Davis scripsit:

> Just to make sure that we're talking about content negotiation, eg using
> Accept-Language to get the language for a website, where "zh" means "zh" or
> anything starting with it. 

Check.

> Here's an example. Let's suppose that content tagged with "fr", "gsw", and
> "yue" (or "zh-yue") are available, and nothing else. Let's suppose also
> that I understand German, French, and Mandarin, but not [anything else].

> Both models
> 
>    - If I specify "de fr", I'll get "fr" under either model. Fine,
>    I can understand "fr".
>    - If I wanted to also request Swiss German as well as German,
>    I would use "gsw de fr", and get "gsw".
>    - I only get "gsw" if I request it. That's good, because I don't
>    understand "gsw".

Check.

> No Extlang Model
> 
>    - If I specify "zh cmn fr", I'll get "fr" under either model. Fine,
>    I can understand "fr".
>    - If I wanted to also request Cantonese as well as Mardarin,
>    I would use "yue cmn zh fr" and get "yue"

That would only work if the Cantonese content was labeled "yue", which is
not possible until 4646bis goes into effect.  So for practical purposes
you'd need to say "yue zh-yue cmn zh fr", since "zh-yue" is currently
the *only* way to tag Cantonese.

>    - I only get "yue" if I request it. That's good, because I don't
>    understand "yue".

That's literally true, but you *will* get Cantonese content tagged "zh-yue".

>    - I need to include "zh", and will for the indefinite future because
>    the vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.

Check.

>    - I might get content tagged "zh" but which is actually "yue" but the
>    chances of that are extremely remote.

Not so.  If the Cantonese content is tagged "zh-yue" (and again, that is the
*only* way to tag Cantonese today), you will get it.

> Extlang Model
> 
>    - If I specify "zh zh-cmn fr", I would get "zh-yue". Broken, I don't
>    understand Cantonese!

Check.

>    - In order to specify that I want "zh" or "cmn" but no other languages, I
>    have to use "zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0, zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0,
>    zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0 zh
>    zh-cmn fr".

Check.  And yet:

If most users can handle most of the encompassed languages, then the
no-extlang model is painful (you have to specify too many positive-q
tags).  If most users can only handle a few encompassed languages, then
the extlang model is painful (you have to specify too many zero-q tags).
The situation is symmetrical.

>    - Moreover, as you said, if another encompassed language shows up
>    for zh, I could get that inadvertently unless I add this to my list.

Again, it's symmetrical: if another encompassed language shows up, I
could miss that inadvertently (in the no-extlang model) unless I add
it to my list.

>    - Again, I need to include "zh", and will for the indefinite future
>    because the vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.

Check.

-- 
You know, you haven't stopped talking           John Cowan
since I came here. You must have been           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> John Cowan


> >    - In order to specify that I want "zh" or "cmn" but no other
> languages, I
> >    have to use "zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0, zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-
> gan;q=0,
> >    zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-
> yue;q=0 zh
> >    zh-cmn fr".
>
> Check.  And yet:
>
> If most users can handle most of the encompassed languages, then the
> no-extlang model is painful (you have to specify too many positive-q
> tags).  If most users can only handle a few encompassed languages, then
> the extlang model is painful (you have to specify too many zero-q tags).
> The situation is symmetrical.

My hunch is that, for most macrolanguage cases, most users would not be able to handle most of the encompassed languages. If that's the case, then you're making an argument *against* extlang.



Peter
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Peter Constable scripsit:

> My hunch is that, for most macrolanguage cases, most users would not be
> able to handle most of the encompassed languages.

You're probably right, with Norwegian as a conspicuous exception;
hence the ongoing brouhaha.

> If that's the case, then you're making an argument *against* extlang.

Hmm.  You may be right at that.

-- 
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Mark Davis 2008-05-24 18.43:
> Let's suppose that content tagged with "fr", "gsw", and
> "yue" (or "zh-yue") are available, and nothing else. Let's suppose also
> that I understand German, French, and Mandarin, but not any of the
> following.
>   

> No Extlang Model
>
>    - If I specify "zh cmn fr", I'll get "fr" under either model. Fine, I can
>    understand "fr".
>    - If I wanted to also request Cantonese as well as Mardarin, I would use
>    "yue cmn zh fr" and get "yue"
>    - I only get "yue" if I request it. That's good, because I don't
>    understand "yue".
>    - I need to include "zh", and will for the indefinite future because the
>    vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.
>    - I might get content tagged "zh" but which is actually "yue" but the
>    chances of that are extremely remote.
>   

A fundamental question:  No matter how "extremly remote" the "yue" 
content which is tagged as "zh" is, why do you place "zh" first? Where 
is the benefit in having 'zh cmn' instead of 'cmn zh'?  If you are 
against Extlang, why are you rejecting the benefit of not having Extlang 
by placing 'zh' first?

> Extlang Model
>
>    - If I specify "zh zh-cmn fr", I would get "zh-yue". Broken, I don't
>    understand Cantonese!
>   

Ok, so you want to discus your 0.00001% of Chinese resources which are 
in Cantonese ...

    * Firstly, you should not need to say 'zh' when you have said
      'zh-cmn', since Web servers wiill see that zh-cmn as a partly
      match for 'zh'. So I disagree that you really need to include 'zh'
      here.
    * Secondly, as I understand it, a Mandarin user very likely
      understands some Cantonese. It all depends on the kind of
      Cantonese - if we are to believe what was mentioned on this list
      earlier.  Do the unlikelyhood that the Mandarin user could meet a
      Cantonese page he/she was completely unable to comprehend really
      defend "going through hoops"?
          o Thus I feel that this need for a Mandarin speaker to avoid
            Cantonese at all cost is not a a real issue for a native
            Chinese speaker. I.e. you describe an edge case.

>    - In order to specify that I want "zh" or "cmn" but no other languages, I
>    have to use "zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0, zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0,
>    zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0 zh
>    zh-cmn fr".
>   

A simpler solution, for laymen, would be this order of preference: 
"zh-cmn fr zh-yue zh-cjy zh-cpx zh-czh zh-czo zh-gan zh-hak zh-hsn 
zh-mnp zh-nan zh-wuu"

In other words, to completely control the languages of a macrolanguage, 
you must list them all.

This is the benefit, and downside, of macrolanguages.

>    - Moreover, as you said, if another encompassed language shows up for zh,
>    I could get that inadvertently unless I add this to my list.
>    - Again, I need to include "zh", and will for the indefinite future
>    because the vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.
>   

All users of the Chinese Macrolanguae will, eventually, need to include 
'zh'.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-24 20.41:
> Part of my message was garbled in the Digest, probably because some 
> piece of software doesn't properly escape the word "From" when it starts 
> a paragraph.  So to repeat the garbled part:
>
> > Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
> >
> >> Doesn't Cantonese users understand Mandarin?
> >
> > From what I've heard, in terms of spoken language: absolutely not.
>   

So in terms of written language, the answer is "very often so." And as I 
read Mark, his focus is primarely the written World Wide Web.
-- 
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Peter Constable 2008-05-25 08.20:
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > John Cowan
>
>
> >> - In order to specify that I want "zh" or "cmn" but no other =

> >> languages, I have to use "zh-cjy;q=3D0, zh-cpx;q=3D0, zh-czh;q=3D0,
> >> zh-czo;q=3D0, zh- gan;q=3D0, zh-hak;q=3D0, zh-hsn;q=3D0, zh-mnp;q=3D0,
> >> zh-nan;q=3D0, zh-wuu;q=3D0, zh- yue;q=3D0 zh zh-cmn fr".
> >
> > Check.  And yet:
> >
> > If most users can handle most of the encompassed languages, then the
> > no-extlang model is painful (you have to specify too many positive-q
> > tags).  If most users can only handle a few encompassed languages, then
> > the extlang model is painful (you have to specify too many zero-q tags).
> > The situation is symmetrical.
>
> My hunch is that, for most macrolanguage cases, most users would not be a=
ble to handle most of the encompassed languages. If that's the case, then y=
ou're making an argument *against* extlang.
>   =


And if your hunch is wrong, you are making an argument for Extlang. The =

question is: how do you count "most users"? =


My answer is that firstly, one should focus on the native Macrolanguage =

speakers. Secondly, one should focus on web pages made in the countries =

were these langauges are a dominant language. Their needs should count =

the most.

Fallback is an issue for the web, mostly. Or, perhaps we sould say, it =

is an issue for interactive media. Then the question is,

    * how many web pages are there that exist in "the dominant
      encompassed language" but not in "an undominant encompassed
      language"? (And I count in that which encompassed language is
      dominant, might vary in different countries.)

If it is a general resource aimed at users from China, then you will use =

the dominant language of China.  And may be fill in with pages in one or =

several of the other languages of China.

If it is a resource aimed spesificly at the users of "an undominant =

encompassed language", then,

    * firstly, it is very likely that the Macrolangauge tag would be
      used for that language anyhow. And thus, there would not be any
      possibility of escaping it, anyway.
    * secondly, should we really "go through hoops", in this spec, in
      order to secure that users of "the dominant encompassed language"
      can get the page in French or English instead? How often will
      there be a *real* need for that?

What we should NOT focus strongly on is the needs of Web sites that aims =

at demonstrating that the World is a multilingual place. Pages where all =

the x-thousand languages of the world are given equal space. Such pages =

are not real world examples in my view.

(I'm now very exited if the above can be commented without a reference =

to how close Nynorsk and Bokm=E5l are.)
-- =

leif halvard silli
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Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 12:12:48 +0200
From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
To: "Leif Halvard Silli" <lhs@malform.no>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Hoi,
I am lost when I try to understand you. For me it is simple; with a zh
article as it is tagged today, we know nothing for sure. It can be anything.
This is the sad truth of the matter. Keeping  the zh tag only prolongs this
for the content that will be tagged in the future. What we need is to
understand what the historic tags means and interpret it for what it stands
for. This interpretation is done best by computers.

As long as you expect people to be able to tag manually, you do in my
opinion best to cut this gordian knot. This leaves you with ends of rope
that you can call "cmn" "yue" et all. When you are sure that people use
software that hides the issues involved, that present the choises in natural
language, then and only then does it not matter what the codes say, they
could even be a binary code.
Thanks,
     Gerard


On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no> wrote:

> Mark Davis 2008-05-24 18.43:
> > Let's suppose that content tagged with "fr", "gsw", and
> > "yue" (or "zh-yue") are available, and nothing else. Let's suppose also
> > that I understand German, French, and Mandarin, but not any of the
> > following.
> >
>
> > No Extlang Model
> >
> >    - If I specify "zh cmn fr", I'll get "fr" under either model. Fine, I
> can
> >    understand "fr".
> >    - If I wanted to also request Cantonese as well as Mardarin, I would
> use
> >    "yue cmn zh fr" and get "yue"
> >    - I only get "yue" if I request it. That's good, because I don't
> >    understand "yue".
> >    - I need to include "zh", and will for the indefinite future because
> the
> >    vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.
> >    - I might get content tagged "zh" but which is actually "yue" but the
> >    chances of that are extremely remote.
> >
>
> A fundamental question:  No matter how "extremly remote" the "yue"
> content which is tagged as "zh" is, why do you place "zh" first? Where
> is the benefit in having 'zh cmn' instead of 'cmn zh'?  If you are
> against Extlang, why are you rejecting the benefit of not having Extlang
> by placing 'zh' first?
>
> > Extlang Model
> >
> >    - If I specify "zh zh-cmn fr", I would get "zh-yue". Broken, I don't
> >    understand Cantonese!
> >
>
> Ok, so you want to discus your 0.00001% of Chinese resources which are
> in Cantonese ...
>
>    * Firstly, you should not need to say 'zh' when you have said
>      'zh-cmn', since Web servers wiill see that zh-cmn as a partly
>      match for 'zh'. So I disagree that you really need to include 'zh'
>      here.
>    * Secondly, as I understand it, a Mandarin user very likely
>      understands some Cantonese. It all depends on the kind of
>      Cantonese - if we are to believe what was mentioned on this list
>      earlier.  Do the unlikelyhood that the Mandarin user could meet a
>      Cantonese page he/she was completely unable to comprehend really
>      defend "going through hoops"?
>          o Thus I feel that this need for a Mandarin speaker to avoid
>            Cantonese at all cost is not a a real issue for a native
>            Chinese speaker. I.e. you describe an edge case.
>
> >    - In order to specify that I want "zh" or "cmn" but no other
> languages, I
> >    have to use "zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0, zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0,
> zh-gan;q=0,
> >    zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0
> zh
> >    zh-cmn fr".
> >
>
> A simpler solution, for laymen, would be this order of preference:
> "zh-cmn fr zh-yue zh-cjy zh-cpx zh-czh zh-czo zh-gan zh-hak zh-hsn
> zh-mnp zh-nan zh-wuu"
>
> In other words, to completely control the languages of a macrolanguage,
> you must list them all.
>
> This is the benefit, and downside, of macrolanguages.
>
> >    - Moreover, as you said, if another encompassed language shows up for
> zh,
> >    I could get that inadvertently unless I add this to my list.
> >    - Again, I need to include "zh", and will for the indefinite future
> >    because the vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.
> >
>
> All users of the Chinese Macrolanguae will, eventually, need to include
> 'zh'.
> --
> leif halvard silli
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

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Hoi,<br>I am lost when I try to understand you. For me it is simple; with a zh article as it is tagged today, we know nothing for sure. It can be anything. This is the sad truth of the matter. Keeping&nbsp; the zh tag only prolongs this for the content that will be tagged in the future. What we need is to understand what the historic tags means and interpret it for what it stands for. This interpretation is done best by computers.<br>
<br>As long as you expect people to be able to tag manually, you do in my opinion best to cut this gordian knot. This leaves you with ends of rope that you can call &quot;cmn&quot; &quot;yue&quot; et all. When you are sure that people use software that hides the issues involved, that present the choises in natural language, then and only then does it not matter what the codes say, they could even be a binary code.<br>
Thanks,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Gerard<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Leif Halvard Silli &lt;<a href="mailto:lhs@malform.no">lhs@malform.no</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Mark Davis 2008-05-24 18.43:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; Let&#39;s suppose that content tagged with &quot;fr&quot;, &quot;gsw&quot;, and<br>
&gt; &quot;yue&quot; (or &quot;zh-yue&quot;) are available, and nothing else. Let&#39;s suppose also<br>
&gt; that I understand German, French, and Mandarin, but not any of the<br>
&gt; following.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; No Extlang Model<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- If I specify &quot;zh cmn fr&quot;, I&#39;ll get &quot;fr&quot; under either model. Fine, I can<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;understand &quot;fr&quot;.<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- If I wanted to also request Cantonese as well as Mardarin, I would use<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;yue cmn zh fr&quot; and get &quot;yue&quot;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- I only get &quot;yue&quot; if I request it. That&#39;s good, because I don&#39;t<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;understand &quot;yue&quot;.<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- I need to include &quot;zh&quot;, and will for the indefinite future because the<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- I might get content tagged &quot;zh&quot; but which is actually &quot;yue&quot; but the<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;chances of that are extremely remote.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>A fundamental question: &nbsp;No matter how &quot;extremly remote&quot; the &quot;yue&quot;<br>
content which is tagged as &quot;zh&quot; is, why do you place &quot;zh&quot; first? Where<br>
is the benefit in having &#39;zh cmn&#39; instead of &#39;cmn zh&#39;? &nbsp;If you are<br>
against Extlang, why are you rejecting the benefit of not having Extlang<br>
by placing &#39;zh&#39; first?<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; Extlang Model<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- If I specify &quot;zh zh-cmn fr&quot;, I would get &quot;zh-yue&quot;. Broken, I don&#39;t<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;understand Cantonese!<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>Ok, so you want to discus your 0.00001% of Chinese resources which are<br>
in Cantonese ...<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;* Firstly, you should not need to say &#39;zh&#39; when you have said<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&#39;zh-cmn&#39;, since Web servers wiill see that zh-cmn as a partly<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;match for &#39;zh&#39;. So I disagree that you really need to include &#39;zh&#39;<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;here.<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;* Secondly, as I understand it, a Mandarin user very likely<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;understands some Cantonese. It all depends on the kind of<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Cantonese - if we are to believe what was mentioned on this list<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;earlier. &nbsp;Do the unlikelyhood that the Mandarin user could meet a<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Cantonese page he/she was completely unable to comprehend really<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;defend &quot;going through hoops&quot;?<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o Thus I feel that this need for a Mandarin speaker to avoid<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Cantonese at all cost is not a a real issue for a native<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Chinese speaker. I.e. you describe an edge case.<br>
<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- In order to specify that I want &quot;zh&quot; or &quot;cmn&quot; but no other languages, I<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;have to use &quot;zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0, zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0,<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0 zh<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;zh-cmn fr&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>A simpler solution, for laymen, would be this order of preference:<br>
&quot;zh-cmn fr zh-yue zh-cjy zh-cpx zh-czh zh-czo zh-gan zh-hak zh-hsn<br>
zh-mnp zh-nan zh-wuu&quot;<br>
<br>
In other words, to completely control the languages of a macrolanguage,<br>
you must list them all.<br>
<br>
This is the benefit, and downside, of macrolanguages.<br>
<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- Moreover, as you said, if another encompassed language shows up for zh,<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;I could get that inadvertently unless I add this to my list.<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;- Again, I need to include &quot;zh&quot;, and will for the indefinite future<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;because the vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>All users of the Chinese Macrolanguae will, eventually, need to include<br>
&#39;zh&#39;.<br>
--<br>
<font color="#888888">leif halvard silli<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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Gerard Meijssen 2008-05-25 12.12:

> I am lost when I try to understand you.


Me? This group? Which passage of my letter?

> For me it is simple; with a zh article as it is tagged today, we know
> nothing for sure. It can be anything.


Agree. It can be any Chinese. In theory and in real life. Unfortunatly, 
there doesn't seem to be agreement on this.

> This is the sad truth of the matter. Keeping  the zh tag only
> prolongs this for the content that will be tagged in the future.


I have seen no serious proposal to deprecate it.

> What we need is to understand what the historic tags means and
> interpret it for what it stands for.


I take this to mean that "we must understand that it means 'any Chinese'".

> This interpretation is done best by computers.


If so, then we must be really firm on that it means 'any Chinese'.

> As long as you expect people to be able to tag manually, you do in my
>  opinion best to cut this gordian knot. This leaves you with ends of
> rope that you can call "cmn" "yue" et all.


There is much in this, I feel. My involvement in this debate began with 
a message to the W3-I18N mailinglist, where I claimed that there are too 
many tags for Norwegian and that people don't get it.

Unfortuntaly, it is hard to get agrement on how the automatic should work.

> When you are sure that people use software that hides the issues
> involved, that present the choises in natural language, then and only
> then does it not matter what the codes say, they could even be a
> binary code.


So, do you mean that 'zh' should always be included, if you select any 
of the Chinese encompassed languages?
-- 
leif halvard silli

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Peter Constable 2008-05-25 02.51:
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli
>
> > How different the encompassed languages
> > are isn't necessarily relevant. The relevant thing is that they are
> > conceived as one language in some important areas. Education of some
> > sort is necessary to maintain intelligibility and command of more than
> > one encompassed language.
>
> Please note very carefully: the definition of macrolanguage entails that the range of varieties is treated as a single language in some application context. 

Quoting 639-3: (http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#M)

|...] considered distinct individual languages, yet in certain usage 
contexts a single language identity for all is needed [...]

The wording "is needed" is one that I think Mark should take note of.

> That does *not* entail that the encompassed varieties are mutually
> intelligible, or that there is any one encompassed variety that is
> intelligible to all the others. Certainly no claim is made in ISO 639
> that either is true. Whether or not either is true for any
> macrolanguage is an empirical question.



The strict definition might not entail this. But the empirical 
investigation that lead a group of languages to be placed in a 
Macrolanguage cathegory does most often entail it, it seems.

The fragment I quoted above mentions 3 typical situations for when the 
Macrolanguage definition is suitable - listed here in my order of 
preference:

   1. Transitional socio-linguistic situation; (The
      Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin situation)
   2. Dominant encompassed language situation; (Arabic)
   3. A "common written form used for multiple closely-related
      languages" situation. (Chinese)

(The 2nd and 3rd sitution seems to float together, in my view. Well, 
even for the 1st situation - e.g. think serbo-croat-bosnian- - the 3rd 
("common written form") is very important there too. And, btw, when 
forced, I would place Norwegian in the first group.)

In both situation 1 and 2, I would use your words and say that we have a 
situation where "the encompassed varieties are mutually intelligible, or 
that there is any one encompassed variety that is intelligible to all 
the others".

In the third situation, Chinese, it seems partly to be the case - at 
least in China - that Mandarin is the lingua franca - thus we partly  
have a dominant language situation. The common written form is also very 
important, however, so that it perhaps serves as a "lingua franca" in 
itself.
-- 
leif halvard silli

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Leif Halvard Silli 2008-05-25 14.04:

> Doug Ewell 2008-05-24 20.06:
>> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:

>> I ask the co-chairs to settle this matter with a third consensus-call 
>> question:
>>
>> Q3: If we did go back to using "extlang," we could combine this subtag
>>     with the region subtag, and require that at most one of the two be
>>     used in a single tag.  Possible responses:  (pick ONE)
>>         A - I would like this.
>>         B - I could live with this.
>>         C - I would object to this.
>>
>> Remember that we did create such a "Leif rule" for the purpose of 
>> allowing two-letter extlangs, as in "no-nn", then:
>>
>> 1. The region/extlang subtag would have to come AFTER any script 
>> subtags, thus: "no-Latn-nn" rather than "no-nn-Latn", and "zh-Hant-cmn" 
>> rather than "zh-cmn-Hant" -- unless we wanted to change that existing 
>> BCP 47 syntactical rule as well.
>>   
> 
> But you would still be able to omit the script tag. However, this does 
> seem logical, to me.


It seems logical to write script before region. Just consider 
Serbo-Croat-Bosnian-Montenegrin. It did not take me long to find 
Serb pages where one discerned between Serbian Latin and Serbian 
Cyrillic through the use of tags for Croatian versus Serbian. This 
  tells me that Script is more important than Region.

Other places, for instance different translated resources at 
www.w3.org, there seems to be tendency to use Serbian as 
"macrolanguage" since for Serbian, it is possible to switch 
between Latin and Cyrillic. (For instance see the translations 
offered at www.w3.org/Style .) I.e. there seems to be little need 
for the other encompassed languages as long as Serbian is covered 
in both scripts. It is not customary to list Region if you list 
Script. The same W3 page also offers translations into Chinese, 
where only the Script is mentioned: 'zh-hant'.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

>    * Firstly, you should not need to say 'zh' when you have said
>      'zh-cmn', since Web servers wiill see that zh-cmn as a partly
>      match for 'zh'. 

No, that's wrong.  That's the mistake I've been pointing out this
last week.

The way Web servers work is that if you ask for "zh", you will get
anything that begins with "zh" as well.  This is the opposite of the
way locale fallback works, where asking for "zh-cmn" resources and not
finding them will cause fallback to "zh".

>    * Secondly, as I understand it, a Mandarin user very likely
>      understands some Cantonese. 

That's a gross exaggeration.

1) Spoken Cantonese and spoken Mandarin have zero mutual intelligibility,
the same as Norwegian and English.

2) Most Mandarin-speakers never learn any Cantonese at all.  [Most
English-speakers never learn any Norwegian.]

3) Cantonese-speakers in the People's Republic and in Singapore
typically learn Mandarin in school, including how to read and write it.
They then use Mandarin for all written purposes and some spoken purposes,
while of course continuing to use Cantonese for other spoken purposes.
[Norwegians learn and use English this way too, while of course also
learning to read and write Norwegian.]

4) In Hong Kong, people learn Mandarin in written form only, and for oral
purposes pronounce each written word using its Cantonese equivalent.
(I'm simplifying by using the word "word" here.)  This produces unnatural
but intelligible Cantonese.  After that they read and write Mandarin
and speak Cantonese.  [You could imagine a Norwegian learning written
English like this and reading it aloud word by word in Norwegian.]

5) There is *no* standard way to write Cantonese.  When it is necessary
to write it exactly, as in recording the lyrics of Cantonese pop songs,
a variety of hacks are used, similar in principle to the hacks used
to record dialects exactly in English (and, I suppose, Norwegian too).
The more hacks there are (unknown spellings, use of one word to represent
another with no Mandarin equivalent, unusual word orderings), the less
likely that someone who can read and write Mandarin will be able to
understand.  [Norwegian, fortunately, has a written standard, in fact
two of them.]

This set of facts is not reducible to "Mandarin- and Cantonese-speakers
understand each other" or "They don't understand each other."
Understanding is partial, not necessarily mutual, a matter of degree.

-- 
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan      cowan@ccil.org
Be yourself.  Especially do not feign a working knowledge of RDF where
no such knowledge exists.  Neither be cynical about RELAX NG; for in
the face of all aridity and disenchantment in the world of markup,
James Clark is as perennial as the grass.  --DeXiderata, Sean McGrath
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Subject: [Ltru] What people want (Was: my technical position on extlang
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On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 02:05:41PM -0700,
 Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote 
 a message of 352 lines which said:

>    1. "get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X" (maybe to
>    degree Y), and
>    2. "get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X"

Most people, in practice, say neither #1 nor #2. They say "get the
languages I understand and like". It is not restricted to languages
that are mutually intelligible, users expect the software to know
everything *they* know (for instance that most literate people in
Tunisia can read French, even if this language has no official status
in Tunisia).

Since nobody considers adding this complicated and often-changing
information to the LSR, we must accept that we will not be able to
deliver to the end-users what they really want.

Therefore, we should stay focused on delivering something which may
not be the perfect solution to every language problem, but which is at
least useful and consistent.

I would prefer something that allows unambiguous tagging. I would
leave the "right fallback" issue to complicated programs, filled with
information produced by someone else and developed outside of LTRU. We
cannot specify rules for the right fallback, we should regard this
issue as taboo and no longer discuss it.


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 07:44:27PM -0400,
 John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote 
 a message of 17 lines which said:

> You ask for more than can be had, since "mutually comprehensible" is
> itself very much a matter of degree.  There are dialects of English
> (not creoles) that I find very difficult to understand.

A question for the linguists: I suspect that "mutual intelligibility"
is not transitive. That is, A can be "mutually comprehensible" with B
and B with C but not A with C. Are there documented cases of
non-transitivity?
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Peter Constable wrote:
> Please note very carefully: the definition of macrolanguage 
> entails that the range of varieties is treated as a single 
> language in some application context. That does *not* entail 
> that the encompassed varieties are mutually intelligible, or 

I have stayed out of this heated debate, but this clarification
makes up my mind. I had, falsely, the impression that all
languages encompassed by a macrolanguage were largely mutually
intelligible in all cases (except for spoken 'zh'). But not so.

So on the consensus call questions, my answer is:

Q1: A
Q2: C
Doug's Q3: C, very much C

Reasons (not limited to one sentence...):

 a) See above quote, which I see as saying that extlangs will
    not provide the benefits claimed by the extlang proponents.
 b) The exceptions to extlang application, for various reasons,
    like for nn/nb and other instances, are already numerous.
 c) No extlangs is a simpler model, both syntactically and
    use-wise, and often have advantages over extlangs.

So a no-extlang model is simpler to explain and apply, and
often have use-advantages over an extlang model. While the
extlang model is harder to defend, especially given the
exceptions, and though it may sometimes have advantages over
a no-extlang model, I don't think those occasional advantages
outweigh the disadvantages in general (including the pedagogical
ones).

Even if we were to change back (in itself unappealing, and
I don't see a strong reason to do so) to an extlang model,
I would very much expect to see a non-extlang model being
applied in practice, even though some language tags then
would not be valid (though well-formed). I.e. even if
we were to go back to an extlang model, I would expect
quite a lot of content be tagged with an extlang at
the lang position (i.e. first). Better stick to a simpler
model, and also formally let would-be-extlangs be langs.

For the almost-running-example of Cantonese and language
preference list (like for a web browser), and drawing from
John Cowan's mail of today, a Cantonese user may use

1. yue	for spoken and written Cantonese (any script)
2. cmn-Hans	for written Mandarin (in simplified Han)
3. zh-Hans	for written "Chinese" (in simplified Han) for
		backwards compatibility, ideally to be phased
		out (except for archived old data)
4. NOT listing cmn, to avoid spoken Mandarin, which this
		hypothetical user does not understand.
		(Hopefully written Mandarin will be tagged
		including a script subtag, due to the Hant/
		Hans split (not to speak of Hani...).)

For the initial example for the current "thread bundle",
no/nn/nb, there will be no change in either case. And
yes, I think the current situation for Norwegian is
much an accident. Compare the similar case of Frisian,
where the old code was reused for West Frisian, when
new codes were introduced for North Frisian and East
Frisian. The old code was NOT kept as a (would-be)
macrolanguage. My guess is that no repeat of the
"Norwegian mess" was desired, and a narrowing of the
code "fy" was better (accepted without much discussion,
IIRC, for the Language Subtag Registry).

		/kent k

(Going back to being (mostly) silent on this issue.)

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] What people want (Was: my technical position on extlang
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I agree.

On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
wrote:

> On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 02:05:41PM -0700,
>  Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote
>  a message of 352 lines which said:
>
> >    1. "get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X" (maybe to
> >    degree Y), and
> >    2. "get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X"
>
> Most people, in practice, say neither #1 nor #2. They say "get the
> languages I understand and like". It is not restricted to languages
> that are mutually intelligible, users expect the software to know
> everything *they* know (for instance that most literate people in
> Tunisia can read French, even if this language has no official status
> in Tunisia).
>
> Since nobody considers adding this complicated and often-changing
> information to the LSR, we must accept that we will not be able to
> deliver to the end-users what they really want.
>
> Therefore, we should stay focused on delivering something which may
> not be the perfect solution to every language problem, but which is at
> least useful and consistent.
>
> I would prefer something that allows unambiguous tagging. I would
> leave the "right fallback" issue to complicated programs, filled with
> information produced by someone else and developed outside of LTRU. We
> cannot specify rules for the right fallback, we should regard this
> issue as taboo and no longer discuss it.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I agree.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer &lt;<a href="mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">bortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 02:05:41PM -0700,<br>
&nbsp;Mark Davis &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt; wrote<br>
&nbsp;a message of 352 lines which said:<br>
<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;1. &quot;get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X&quot; (maybe to<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;degree Y), and<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;2. &quot;get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X&quot;<br>
<br>
Most people, in practice, say neither #1 nor #2. They say &quot;get the<br>
languages I understand and like&quot;. It is not restricted to languages<br>
that are mutually intelligible, users expect the software to know<br>
everything *they* know (for instance that most literate people in<br>
Tunisia can read French, even if this language has no official status<br>
in Tunisia).<br>
<br>
Since nobody considers adding this complicated and often-changing<br>
information to the LSR, we must accept that we will not be able to<br>
deliver to the end-users what they really want.<br>
<br>
Therefore, we should stay focused on delivering something which may<br>
not be the perfect solution to every language problem, but which is at<br>
least useful and consistent.<br>
<br>
I would prefer something that allows unambiguous tagging. I would<br>
leave the &quot;right fallback&quot; issue to complicated programs, filled with<br>
information produced by someone else and developed outside of LTRU. We<br>
cannot specify rules for the right fallback, we should regard this<br>
issue as taboo and no longer discuss it.<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Stephane Bortzmeyer scripsit:

> A question for the linguists: I suspect that "mutual intelligibility"
> is not transitive. That is, A can be "mutually comprehensible" with B
> and B with C but not A with C. Are there documented cases of
> non-transitivity?

Indeed.  English being a pluricentric language, it's easy to set up
chains where each adjacent pair of varieties is mutually intelligible,
but the endpoints are not.  For that matter, there is no sharp linguistic
boundary between Italy and France at the level of local dialect (or
insofar as there is one, it is well inside the political boundaries of
Italy), though obviously Standard Italian and Standard French are not
mutually intelligible.

-- 
John Cowan                                cowan@ccil.org
I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen,    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith.  --Galadriel, LOTR:FOTR
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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John Cowan 2008-05-25 18.30:

> Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
> 
>>    * Firstly, you should not need to say 'zh' when you have said
>>      'zh-cmn', since Web servers wiill see that zh-cmn as a partly
>>      match for 'zh'. 
> 
> No, that's wrong.  That's the mistake I've been pointing out this
> last week.


I agree, this was not correct. Only if the users ask *only* for 
'zh-cmn' and no other languages, would what I said above hold true 
for Apache. The user would then experience this as the following:

   Ask zh-cmn; Get zh-cmn, zh-abc, zh-def, zh-ghi *or* zh

I.e. you will get 'zh-whatever' before you get 'zh'.

However, in Mark's example, the User Agent also asked for other 
languages. And when asking for other languages as well, then you 
will get 'other language' (fr, en, etc) before any fallback to 
zh-whatever happens.

Hence, the User Agent must, as Mark said, ask for both zh-cmn and 
zh in order to receive such content before for example 'en' content.

However, this also confirms that one should place 'zh-cmn' before 
  'zh'. At least if the user wants to be served 'zh-cmn' before 
'zh-whatever'.


> The way Web servers work is that if you ask for "zh", you will get
> anything that begins with "zh" as well.  This is the opposite of the
> way locale fallback works, where asking for "zh-cmn" resources and not
> finding them will cause fallback to "zh".



So, if I got it right, you say this:

  Web: Ask zh; Get zh, zh-cmn, zh-yum, etc - in alphabetical order.
  Loc: Ask 'zh'; Get 'zh' only.
  Loc: Ask 'zh-cmn'; Get zh-cmn or zh.
.

 
>>    * Secondly, as I understand it, a Mandarin user very likely
>>      understands some Cantonese. 
> 
> That's a gross exaggeration.


   [ snip ]


> This set of facts is not reducible to "Mandarin- and Cantonese-speakers
> understand each other" or "They don't understand each other."
> Understanding is partial, not necessarily mutual, a matter of degree.
 

This was a useful read. Thank you. I agree with your conclusion.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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> From: Leif Halvard Silli [mailto:lhs@malform.no]

> > My hunch is that, for most macrolanguage cases, most users would not
> be able to handle most of the encompassed languages. If that's the case,
> then you're making an argument *against* extlang.
> >
>
> And if your hunch is wrong, you are making an argument for Extlang.

Not necessarily. If a implies b, it does not logically follow that not b implies not a.

Besides, I doubt my hunch is wrong: AFAIK, it's not the case that most Chinese are able to handle most Chinese languages; it's not the case that most Quechua are able to handle most Quechuan languages; it's not the case that most Zapotec are able to handle most Zapotec languages.


> The
> question is: how do you count "most users"?

Well, you tell me: it was needed for the pro-extlang argument being made.


> My answer is that firstly, one should focus on the native Macrolanguage
> speakers.

That's fallacious in the general case: nobody speaks a macrolanguage, unless you consider a macrolanguage to be equal to one of the encompassed languages or believe that all of the presumed individual languages are really not distinct at all. That may hold in a case like Serbo-Croatian, in which socio- and politico-linguistic factors have been the basis for positing multiple languages rather than purely linguistic factors. But that's the exceptional case.



> Secondly, one should focus on web pages made in the countries
> were these langauges are a dominant language. Their needs should count
> the most.

As has been observed before, 4646bis is not creating language tags solely for the Web.



Peter
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli


> Ok, so you want to discus your 0.00001% of Chinese resources which are
> in Cantonese ...
>
>     * Firstly, you should not need to say 'zh' when you have said
>       'zh-cmn', since Web servers wiill see that zh-cmn as a partly
>       match for 'zh'. So I disagree that you really need to include
>       'zh' here.

Please read RFC 2616, section 14.4: if an HTTP header requests zh-cmn and the content is tagged zh, there will not be a match. If the content is tagged zh, then zh must be requested.



Peter
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: Leif Halvard Silli [mailto:lhs@malform.no]



> > Please note very carefully: the definition of macrolanguage entails
> that the range of varieties is treated as a single language in some
> application context.
>
> Quoting 639-3: (http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#M)
>
> |...] considered distinct individual languages, yet in certain usage
> contexts a single language identity for all is needed [...]
...

> > That does *not* entail that the encompassed varieties are mutually
> > intelligible, or that there is any one encompassed variety that is
> > intelligible to all the others...
>
> The strict definition might not entail this. But the empirical
> investigation that lead a group of languages to be placed in a
> Macrolanguage cathegory does most often entail it, it seems.

I think I know what the intent of the text in ISO 639-3 is better than anyone here, whether it reads the same way to all people or not. As for the "empirical investigation that lead a group of languages to be placed in a macrolanguage category," I wonder what you might actually know about that. I happen to know exactly how the current macrolanguage categories got defined, and the only empirical part of it I'm personally aware of was mostly comparison of ISO 639-2 and MARC with content being prepared for Ethnologue 15.


> The fragment I quoted above mentions 3 typical situations for when the
> Macrolanguage definition is suitable

"Typical situations in which this need can occur include the following..." These are three prototypical scenarios, but not the only scenarios. None of these three scenarios hold in several macrolanguage cases, including Quechuan, Zapotec, Cree, Ojibwa...



Peter
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Stephane Bortzmeyer

> A question for the linguists: I suspect that "mutual intelligibility"
> is not transitive. That is, A can be "mutually comprehensible" with B
> and B with C but not A with C. Are there documented cases of
> non-transitivity?

Certainly. There are also cases of non symmetry: speakers of A may understand B at a functional level, but not vice versa.



Peter
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Stephane Bortzmeyer


> Therefore, we should stay focused on delivering something which may
> not be the perfect solution to every language problem, but which is at
> least useful and consistent.
>
> I would prefer something that allows unambiguous tagging. I would
> leave the "right fallback" issue to complicated programs, filled with
> information produced by someone else and developed outside of LTRU.

I can agree with that.


Peter
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Doug Ewell


> Internet Explorer 7 says, in "Language Preferences":
>
> "Add the languages you use to read websites, listing in order of
> preference.  Only add the ones you need, as some characters can be used
> to impersonate websites in other languages."
>
> It then asks me to choose between 13 different regional flavors of
> English,

IIRC, IE 6 would give "en" as an option, and IE 8 will do so.


Peter

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Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote 

>A question for the linguists: I suspect that "mutual intelligibility"
>is not transitive. That is, A can be "mutually comprehensible" with B
>and B with C but not A with C. Are there documented cases of
>non-transitivity?

Of course. In a linguistic continuum, two speechs/dialects/languages at 
extremities can be not mutually comprehensible altought intermediary 
being step by step. Examples such (before XIX century standardisation) 
south west european roman speechs/dialects/languages, germanic, 
sout slavic. 

It's the same as speciation of Larus argentatusaccros the north 
emisphere (hoping no creationnist is reading this). 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/linguistic_continuum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larus_argentatus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ring_species



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Leif Halvard Silli wrote 

>It seems logical to write script before region. Just consider 
>Serbo-Croat-Bosnian-Montenegrin. It did not take me long to find 
>Serb pages where one discerned between Serbian Latin and Serbian 
>Cyrillic through the use of tags for Croatian versus Serbian. This 
>  tells me that Script is more important than Region.
>
>Other places, for instance different translated resources at 
>www.w3.org, there seems to be tendency to use Serbian as 
>"macrolanguage" since for Serbian, it is possible to switch 
>between Latin and Cyrillic. (For instance see the translations 
>offered at www.w3.org/Style .) I.e. there seems to be little need 
>for the other encompassed languages as long as Serbian is covered 
>in both scripts. It is not customary to list Region if you list 
>Script. 


The macrolanguage of hr is sh, not sr. I suggest you to: 
- not claim in Zagreb that Croatian (hr) is only a local variant of Serbian
- not claim in Zagreb that Croatian (hr) is only Serbian writen in a customary script
- not claim in Zagreb that Croatian (hr) is only Serbian writen in Latin script
- not claim in Zagreb that hr is (only) a shortcut for sr-Latn
- not claim in Zagreb that Serbocroatian encompasse Croatian  
 (because nationalism wich leeded to war the previous decade, sadly)
- not confuse encompassed languages with region
- not confuse variant with region
- not confuse script with region
- tell (me) frankly what you want, since it's look/seem i was not able to 
 help you on your wishes

In south slavic language, there are at least 
sl, hr, bs, bs-Cyrl, sr, sr-Latn, sr-Cyrl, sr-Cyrs, sr-MN, sr-BA, 
sh, sh-Latn, mk, bg. 


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	985e6b0591ba54cd539ea5012fadb0bb
Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Maybe, just maybe, in hindsight, it would have been better to either
=20
a) reclassify some language codes to be collection codes ('ar', 'zh', =
...), or
=20
b) retarget some language codes to the "dominant language" (in some =
sense)
    like 'ar' to stand for just standard Arabic (a similar change has =
been
    accepted for LTRU re. 'fy'), even though that could be seen as a =
narrowing,
    but better seen as a clarification (in view of stability =
requirements);
=20
or a mix of these these, rather than to invent the new concept of =
macrolanguage.
In the current situation, it seems best to in practice regard =
macrolanguage
codes as collection codes.
=20
        /kent k


  _____ =20

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Peter Constable
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 3:03 AM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang



> Moreover, from what I understand from Peter, #1 is low=E2=80=A6

=20

I=E2=80=99d be happier if people did not attribute such general claims =
to me.

=20

When initially published, ISO 639-3 encoded categories that were already =
encoded in ISO 639-2, that were catalogued in Ethnologue 15, or that =
were catalogued by LinguistList as supplemental to Ethnologue 15. Those =
sources deem each individual language to be distinct languages, by some =
definition =E2=80=93 typically based on evidence of mutual =
non-intelligibility, though sometimes also considering other factors. =
All that I added was to attempt to make sense of the cases in which the =
denotation of categories in ISO 639-2 were not clear, or in which it =
appeared that they did not align in terms of granularity with categories =
in the Ethnologue or Linguist List catalogues, the latter leading to =
instances of macrolanguage.

=20

So, claims about inter-intelligibility between varieties go back to =
those sources, not to me; and while the prototypical pairing of =
individual languages would be assumed by those sources to be mutually =
non-intelligible, that is not necessarily the assumption made in every =
case.

=20

=20

Peter

=20

=20

=20

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 4:40 PM
To: John Cowan
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang

=20

=20

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 3:54 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

Mark Davis scripsit:

>    1. "get me languages that are mutually intelligible with X" (maybe
>    to degree Y), and
>    2. "get me the languages that have the same macrolanguage as X"

>
> Number 1 is very interesting, and would be very useful; but it is
> not at all the same as #2. If macrolanguage were defined as #1, I
> would probably be all in favor of baking it into extlangs. But is
> not at all the same, as many, many examples illustrate. Moreover,
> "mutual intelligibility" differs whether the content is written or
> spoken - forcing it to be baked into the syntax does not allow for
> that difference.

This is as much as to say, Because we can't have everything, let us
have nothing.  To which I reply, The best is the enemy of the good.


This is a key issue.

If you are claiming that "sharing macrolanguages" are a good or at least =
reasonable proxy for "mutually comprehensible", then we'd really need =
some figures. Especially since where the languages are not mutually =
comprehensible it will cause problems.

1.	What percentage of languages sharing macrolanguages are mutually =
comprehensible?=20

2.	How many other languages that don't share macrolanguages are mutually =
comprehensible?=20

Both of these can have different figures for written vs spoken.

If you don't have the data for this, you have NO justification to say =
that we'd be better off with extlang. Moreover, from what I understand =
from Peter, #1 is low, which is very bad.

=20

--=20
Mark=20


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Maybe,=20
just maybe, in hindsight, it would have been better to=20
either</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>a)=20
reclassify some language codes to be collection codes ('ar', 'zh', ...), =

or</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>b)=20
retarget some language codes to the "dominant language" (in some=20
sense)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; like 'ar' to stand for just standard Arabic =
(a similar=20
change has been</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; accepted for LTRU re. 'fy'), even though =
that could be=20
seen as a narrowing,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but better seen as a clarification (in view =
of=20
stability requirements);</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>or a=20
mix of these these, rather than to invent the new concept of=20
macrolanguage.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>In the=20
current situation, it seems best to in practice regard=20
macrolanguage</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>codes=20
as collection codes.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D134052922-25052008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN =
class=3D134052922-25052008>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>/kent =
k</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> ltru-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Peter=20
  Constable<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 24, 2008 3:03 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
LTRU=20
  Working Group<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Ltru] my technical position on=20
  extlang<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">&gt;=20
  </SPAN><I>Moreover, from what I understand from Peter, #1 is=20
  low=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></I></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><I><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></I></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99d be happier if people did not =
attribute such general=20
  claims to me.<o:p></o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>When initially published, ISO 639-3 encoded =
categories that=20
  were already encoded in ISO 639-2, that were catalogued in Ethnologue =
15, or=20
  that were catalogued by LinguistList as supplemental to Ethnologue 15. =
Those=20
  sources deem each individual language to be distinct languages, by =
some=20
  definition =E2=80=93 typically based on evidence of mutual =
non-intelligibility, though=20
  sometimes also considering other factors. All that I added was to =
attempt to=20
  make sense of the cases in which the denotation of categories in ISO =
639-2=20
  were not clear, or in which it appeared that they did not align in =
terms of=20
  granularity with categories in the Ethnologue or Linguist List =
catalogues, the=20
  latter leading to instances of macrolanguage.<o:p></o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>So, claims about inter-intelligibility between =
varieties go=20
  back to those sources, not to me; and while the prototypical pairing =
of=20
  individual languages would be assumed by those sources to be mutually=20
  non-intelligible, that is not necessarily the assumption made in every =

  case.<o:p></o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>Peter<o:p></o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue =
1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
  <DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
#b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: =
medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">=20
  ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Mark=20
  Davis<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 23, 2008 4:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B> John=20
  Cowan<BR><B>Cc:</B> LTRU Working Group<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Ltru] =
my=20
  technical position on extlang<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 3:54 PM, John Cowan =
&lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</A>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>Mark Davis scripsit:<BR><BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;1. =
"get me=20
  languages that are mutually intelligible with X" (maybe<BR>&gt; &nbsp; =

  &nbsp;to degree Y), and<BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;2. "get me the languages =
that=20
  have the same macrolanguage as X"<o:p></o:p></P>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">&gt;<BR>&gt; Number =
1 is very=20
  interesting, and would be very useful; but it is<BR>&gt; not at all =
the same=20
  as #2. If macrolanguage were defined as #1, I<BR>&gt; would probably =
be all in=20
  favor of baking it into extlangs. But is<BR>&gt; not at all the same, =
as many,=20
  many examples illustrate. Moreover,<BR>&gt; "mutual intelligibility" =
differs=20
  whether the content is written or<BR>&gt; spoken - forcing it to be =
baked into=20
  the syntax does not allow for<BR>&gt; that =
difference.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>This is as much as to say, Because we can't have=20
  everything, let us<BR>have nothing. &nbsp;To which I reply, The best =
is the=20
  enemy of the good.<o:p></o:p></P>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><BR>This is a key issue.<BR><BR>If you are =
claiming that=20
  "sharing macrolanguages" are a good or at least reasonable proxy for =
"mutually=20
  comprehensible", then we'd really need some figures. Especially since =
where=20
  the languages are not mutually comprehensible it will cause=20
  problems.<o:p></o:p></P>
  <OL type=3D1>
    <LI class=3DMsoNormal=20
    style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; =
mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">What=20
    percentage of languages sharing macrolanguages are mutually=20
    comprehensible?<o:p></o:p>=20
    <LI class=3DMsoNormal=20
    style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; =
mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">How=20
    many other languages that don't share macrolanguages are mutually=20
    comprehensible?<o:p></o:p> </LI></OL>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>Both of these can have different figures for =
written vs=20
  spoken.<BR><BR><I>If you don't have the data for this, you have NO=20
  justification to say that we'd be better off with extlang. Moreover, =
from what=20
  I understand from Peter, #1 is low, which is very=20
bad.</I><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>-- <BR>Mark=20
<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
...
> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
> 
> >> Of course, because that means "Norwegian as used in Norway."  (Which 
> >> is kind of redundant really, [...]
> >
> > It is redundant. 

For the pure use as a language tag, the NO in nb-NO may be seen as
redundant. But for the derived use as a locale identifier, the NO
part makes a difference, though one not relevant for pure language
tagging. Such things as default currency and maybe even default time
zone (to some extent) may be derived from the territory part. nb_SE
would use a different default currency from nb_NO. And for just 'nb'
there would be no default currency. But as Randy has pointed out,
language tags aren't the same as locale identifiers, though closely
related.

	/kent k

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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>, LTRU Working Group
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Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 16:15:12 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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RFC 2616 may say that, but in practice that's not really true.  Many servers will return en if en-US is requested and en content exists but en-US doesn't.

IE 6 was also pretty mixed up with the default languages, knowing specific languages for en-US, etc., but French just got fr, no fr-FR option.  Region-neutral resources aren't requested by default from IE 6 (unless you happened to be French or some other country where your country code matches your language code by accident).

- Shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Constable
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 2:35 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang

> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli


> Ok, so you want to discus your 0.00001% of Chinese resources which are
> in Cantonese ...
>
>     * Firstly, you should not need to say 'zh' when you have said
>       'zh-cmn', since Web servers wiill see that zh-cmn as a partly
>       match for 'zh'. So I disagree that you really need to include
>       'zh' here.

Please read RFC 2616, section 14.4: if an HTTP header requests zh-cmn and the content is tagged zh, there will not be a match. If the content is tagged zh, then zh must be requested.



Peter
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Nicolas Krebs 2008-05-26 00.43:

> Leif Halvard Silli wrote 


> The macrolanguage of hr is sh, not sr. I suggest you to: 


I'll make a proposal to myself: Don't think alloud. You will be 
Constabled, Doughed, Krebsed for it.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Shawn Steele 2008-05-26 01.15:

> RFC 2616 may say that, but in practice that's not really true.
> Many servers will return en if en-US is requested and en content
> exists but en-US doesn't.


This is, I think, what John explained about Apache to Mark.

LH

> IE 6 was also pretty mixed up with the default languages,
> knowing specific languages for en-US, etc., but French just got
> fr, no fr-FR option. Region-neutral resources aren't requested by
> default from IE 6 (unless you happened to be French or some other
> country where your country code matches your language code by
> accident).


 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Constable
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 2:35 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
> 
>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Leif Halvard Silli
> 
> 
>> Ok, so you want to discus your 0.00001% of Chinese resources which are
>> in Cantonese ...
>>
>>     * Firstly, you should not need to say 'zh' when you have said
>>       'zh-cmn', since Web servers wiill see that zh-cmn as a partly
>>       match for 'zh'. So I disagree that you really need to include
>>       'zh' here.
> 

> Please read RFC 2616, section 14.4: if an HTTP header requests

zh-cmn and the content is tagged zh, there will not be a match. If
the content is tagged zh, then zh must be requested.
-- 

leif halvard silli

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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli


> Whether we got 'nn' and 'nb' then or had "suddenly" gotten 'nob'
> and 'nno' today was still not my point. The point was that a
> macrolanguage tagging method would in fact be simpler for users to
> understand.

Well, that's an interesting claim. I've got people (not on this list) claiming the opposite.


Peter
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Peter Constable 2008-05-25 23.50:

>> From: Leif Halvard Silli [mailto:lhs@malform.no]
>> > Please note very carefully: the definition of macrolanguage entails
>> that the range of varieties is treated as a single language in some
>> application context.
>>
>> Quoting 639-3: (http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#M)
>>
>> |...] considered distinct individual languages, yet in certain usage
>> contexts a single language identity for all is needed [...]
> ...
> 
>> > That does *not* entail that the encompassed varieties are mutually
>> > intelligible, or that there is any one encompassed variety that is
>> > intelligible to all the others...
>>
>> The strict definition might not entail this. But the empirical
>> investigation that lead a group of languages to be placed in a
>> Macrolanguage cathegory does most often entail it, it seems.
> 

> I think I know what the intent of the text in ISO 639-3 is
> better than anyone here, whether it reads the same way to all
> people or not. 


   [ ... ]


> comparison of ISO 639-2 and MARC with content being prepared for
> Ethnologue 15.


1. I suppose Ethnologue has som empirical basis?
2. Was it ISO 639-2 that came up with 'Macrolanguage'?

>> The fragment I quoted above mentions 3 typical situations for when the
>> Macrolanguage definition is suitable
> 

> "Typical situations in which this need can occur include the
> following..." These are three prototypical scenarios, but not the
> only scenarios. None of these three scenarios hold in several
> macrolanguage cases, including Quechuan, Zapotec, Cree, Ojibwa...

So, the typical examples that ISO 6369-3 mentions, are not 
typical, but exceptions. The largest, most well known, 
macrolanguages are to be ignored. And if there happens to be a 
large degree of inteligibility between them, then then it is an 
exceptional exception.

Ok. I better write it up in my fact book.

I just let it be known that I, unlike some others, have not taken 
part in this debate in the belief that all encompassed languages 
of a Macrolanguage are intelligible.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Peter Constable 2008-05-26 03.00:

>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Leif Halvard Silli
> 
>> Whether we got 'nn' and 'nb' then or had "suddenly" gotten 'nob'
>> and 'nno' today was still not my point. The point was that a
>> macrolanguage tagging method would in fact be simpler for users to
>> understand.
> 

> Well, that's an interesting claim. I've got people (not on this
> list) claiming the opposite.


I guess this is what we are debating.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang
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Peter Constable 2008-05-25 23.30:
 >> From: Leif Halvard Silli [mailto:lhs@malform.no]

>>> My hunch is that, for most macrolanguage cases, most users
>>> would not be able to handle most of the encompassed
>>> languages. If that's the case, then you're making an
>>> argument *against* extlang.

>> 
>> And if your hunch is wrong, you are making an argument for
>> Extlang.
> 

> Not necessarily. If a implies b, it does not logically follow

> that not b implies not a.


I don't protest.

> Besides, I doubt my hunch is wrong: AFAIK, it's not the case
> that most Chinese are able to handle most Chinese languages; it's
> not the case that most Quechua are able to handle most Quechuan
> languages; it's not the case that most Zapotec are able to handle
> most Zapotec languages.


For me, it has not been the point that most Chinese are able to 
handle most Chinese languages. I have never said that.

>> The question is: how do you count "most users"?
> 
> Well, you tell me: it was needed for the pro-extlang argument being made.


>> My answer is that firstly, one should focus on the native Macrolanguage

>> speakers.
> 

> That's fallacious in the general case: nobody speaks a
> macrolanguage, unless you consider a macrolanguage to be equal to
> one of the encompassed languages or believe that all of the

> presumed individual languages are really not distinct at all. 


It is perhaps an interesting for you to make that logical point. 
But anyone who speaks one of the encompassed Chinese languages 
speaks Chinese. For my own part, I write and speak Norwegian. For 
other macrolanguages there is perhaps not a common name.

 > That

> may hold in a case like Serbo-Croatian, in which socio- and
> politico-linguistic factors have been the basis for positing
> multiple languages rather than purely linguistic factors. But
> that's the exceptional case.


I'll just take it as "revelation from above" that it is an 
exception if the speakers that belongs to a macrolanguage 
understands any other encompassed language than his/her own.


>> Secondly, one should focus on web pages made in the countries
>>  were these langauges are a dominant language. Their needs should count

>> the most.
>

> As has been observed before, 4646bis is not creating language
> tags solely for the Web.


And that is why I made a point about clarifying that I spoke only 
about the web in this case.
-- 
leif halvard silli





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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Kent Karlsson 2008-05-25 20.02:

> Peter Constable wrote:
>> Please note very carefully: the definition of macrolanguage =

>> entails that the range of varieties is treated as a single =

>> language in some application context. That does *not* entail =

>> that the encompassed varieties are mutually intelligible, or =

> =

> I have stayed out of this heated debate, but this clarification
> makes up my mind. I had, falsely, the impression that all
> languages encompassed by a macrolanguage were largely mutually
> intelligible in all cases (except for spoken 'zh'). But not so.


You cut Peter's statement in the middle.  However, if this is what
you thought - that the encompassed varietes of each macrolanguage
always were mutually intelligible, then OK, that part of the quote
answers your question.

> So on the consensus call questions, my answer is:
> =

> Q1: A
> Q2: C
> Doug's Q3: C, very much C
>
> Reasons (not limited to one sentence...):
> =

>  a) See above quote, which I see as saying that extlangs will
>     not provide the benefits claimed by the extlang proponents.


The benefits are for the minority language users, in contexts of
negotiation between majority and minority encompassed language.
Would be interesting to hear more why you don't see any benefits.

>  b) The exceptions to extlang application, for various reasons,
>     like for nn/nb and other instances, are already numerous.


nn/nb is a situation where the the mutual command of all the (two)
encompassed languages by all native speakers is fostered. Wheras
in most other situations there is perhaps only one (and perhaps
sometimes even none) encompassed language that dominates
throughout each "subtag Region".

This confirms what John has said - as I interpret him (and I has
said it too) that it is education that "keeps up" a macrolanguage
situation. Or - perhaps I should say that it is education that
makes a macrolangauge situation useful knowledge for deciding
fallback.

>  c) No extlangs is a simpler model, both syntactically and
>     use-wise, and often have advantages over extlangs.
> =

> So a no-extlang model is simpler to explain and apply, and


For whom?

> often have use-advantages over an extlang model. While the
> extlang model is harder to defend, especially given the
> exceptions, and though it may sometimes have advantages over
> a no-extlang model, I don't think those occasional advantages
> outweigh the disadvantages in general (including the pedagogical
> ones).


In the areas where needed, the advantages are constant - not
occasional.

> Even if we were to change back (in itself unappealing, and
> I don't see a strong reason to do so) to an extlang model,
> I would very much expect to see a non-extlang model being
> applied in practice, even though some language tags then
> would not be valid (though well-formed). I.e. even if
> we were to go back to an extlang model, I would expect
> quite a lot of content be tagged with an extlang at
> the lang position (i.e. first). Better stick to a simpler
> model, and also formally let would-be-extlangs be langs.


Not my experience. Not sure on what the simplicity claim is based.

> For the almost-running-example of Cantonese and language
> preference list (like for a web browser), and drawing from
> John Cowan's mail of today, a Cantonese user may use
> =

> 1. yue	for spoken and written Cantonese (any script)
> 2. cmn-Hans	for written Mandarin (in simplified Han)
> 3. zh-Hans	for written "Chinese" (in simplified Han) for
> 		backwards compatibility, ideally to be phased
> 		out (except for archived old data)
> 4. NOT listing cmn, to avoid spoken Mandarin, which this
> 		hypothetical user does not understand.
> 		(Hopefully written Mandarin will be tagged
> 		including a script subtag, due to the Hant/
> 		Hans split (not to speak of Hani...).)



A good proposal for the no-Extlang situation.

> For the initial example for the current "thread bundle",
> no/nn/nb, there will be no change in either case. And
> yes, I think the current situation for Norwegian is
> much an accident. Compare the similar case of Frisian,
> where the old code was reused for West Frisian, when
> new codes were introduced for North Frisian and East
> Frisian. The old code was NOT kept as a (would-be)
> macrolanguage. My guess is that no repeat of the
> "Norwegian mess" was desired, and a narrowing of the
> code "fy" was better (accepted without much discussion,
> IIRC, for the Language Subtag Registry).


I shall not speculate about Frisian. But  my guess about no, nn,
nb situation is rooted in what I said about education and
fostering. A language is a dialect with an army behind. It has
always been institutions behind both Nynorsk and Bokm=E5l. And it
has allways been 100% clear that Norwegian/'no' covered both.
-- =

leif halvard silli

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Hi -

As WG co-chair...

Ok, I've tallied the responses.  One was sent directly to me, rather
than to the ltru@ietf.org mailing list.  One was sent after the deadline.
Here's the tally including those two:

Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4
Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4

Excluding those two responses, it looks like:
Q1: A-3 B-9 C-3
Q2: A-7 B-5 C-3

>From this I'm concluding that we have a *rough* consensus to
"reinstate" extlang.

This was not an easy decision, and it was not undertaken lightly,
particularly since we'd been working on the assumption that we'd
polished of the extlang issue some months ago.

However, with equal numbers objecting to each of the proposals,
and a 2-to-1 preference for Q2 among those favoring a proposal,
I think the sense of the WG is clear enough for us to move on.

Randy
ltru co-chair

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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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This is crazy; we do not have consensus to introduce a major architectural
change from RFC4646.
Mark

On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
wrote:

> Hi -
>
> As WG co-chair...
>
> Ok, I've tallied the responses.  One was sent directly to me, rather
> than to the ltru@ietf.org mailing list.  One was sent after the deadline.
> Here's the tally including those two:
>
> Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4
> Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4
>
> Excluding those two responses, it looks like:
> Q1: A-3 B-9 C-3
> Q2: A-7 B-5 C-3
>
> From this I'm concluding that we have a *rough* consensus to
> "reinstate" extlang.
>
> This was not an easy decision, and it was not undertaken lightly,
> particularly since we'd been working on the assumption that we'd
> polished of the extlang issue some months ago.
>
> However, with equal numbers objecting to each of the proposals,
> and a 2-to-1 preference for Q2 among those favoring a proposal,
> I think the sense of the WG is clear enough for us to move on.
>
> Randy
> ltru co-chair
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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This is crazy; we do not have consensus to introduce a major architectural change from RFC4646.<div><br></div><div>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Randy Presuhn &lt;<a href="mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Hi -<br>
<br>
As WG co-chair...<br>
<br>
Ok, I&#39;ve tallied the responses. &nbsp;One was sent directly to me, rather<br>
than to the <a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a> mailing list. &nbsp;One was sent after the deadline.<br>
Here&#39;s the tally including those two:<br>
<br>
Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4<br>
Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4<br>
<br>
Excluding those two responses, it looks like:<br>
Q1: A-3 B-9 C-3<br>
Q2: A-7 B-5 C-3<br>
<br>
&gt;From this I&#39;m concluding that we have a *rough* consensus to<br>
&quot;reinstate&quot; extlang.<br>
<br>
This was not an easy decision, and it was not undertaken lightly,<br>
particularly since we&#39;d been working on the assumption that we&#39;d<br>
polished of the extlang issue some months ago.<br>
<br>
However, with equal numbers objecting to each of the proposals,<br>
and a 2-to-1 preference for Q2 among those favoring a proposal,<br>
I think the sense of the WG is clear enough for us to move on.<br>
<br>
Randy<br>
ltru co-chair<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
</div>

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Hi -

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
> This is crazy; we do not have consensus to introduce a major architectural
> change from RFC4646.
...

As I see it, the alternative, since we've been unable to
reach closure, is to shut down the WG.  Folks interested in the
subject could then request a new working group when they come up
with a solution.  We're far behind schedule, and the debate, while
excruciatingly voluminous, has produced little progress.  I'm
ready to say "to heck with it" and recommend closure of the WG,
as unsatisfactory as I know that would be.

But let's wait to see whether Martin reads the responses differently
from how I did, or if he adds the numbers differently.  If he comes
to the same conclusion as I did, then you may, if you wish, appeal
to our Area Director under RFC 2026 section 6.5.1, challenging whether
we've provided adequate opportunity for your views to be considered,
or claiming that this is a technical error which would put the BCP 47
update "in significant jeopardy."

Randy
ltru co-chair

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> Exactly.  There is no difference that I'm aware of between hyphenation 
> rules in any variety of English.  

Actually en-US and en-GB do have different hyphenation patterns, based
on pronunciation vs. etymology (very roughly): a well-known example is
"prog-ress" vs. "pro-gress".

-- 
John Cowan      cowan@ccil.org
        "Not to know The Smiths is not to know K.X.U."  --K.X.U.
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Doug Ewell


> > This is crazy; we do not have consensus to introduce a major
> > architectural change from RFC4646.

> ... I'd be interested to know exactly how
> reinstating them would constitute a "major architectural change from
> RFC4646."  RFC 4646 was built from stem to stern with the underlying
> assumption that the next revision would bring extlangs.

Well, it is and it isn't: we allowed for them in the syntax of 4646, but we didn't implement them. It's the actual implementation that would represent a significant departure. But I would agree that Mark's objection is a bit overstated.

At the same time, I understand the frustration (though, of course, many here are frustrated.) I do think there have been some advances of late, although it's not exactly obviously that consensus is quickly approaching. A straight up/down kind of vote was asked for, yet it seems to me that several people had qualified views. I would have been happier if people were asked to respond succinctly "I like/object to extlang/no-extlang because... " -- i.e. to get to what people see as the core concerns. For instance, I got a clearer sense of what Karen's core concerns were as a result of this vote. I would have liked a little more chance to see if her concerns could be addressed without the significant change entailed in re-inserting extlang into the draft. At this point, though, it's seems like that chance may be gone.

It doesn't help to hear exactly the same points back and forth repeated over and over; that just adds to frustration and a sense that we are spinning wheels. It also doesn't help to have people arguing from a one-track point of view that treats one pet concern as though it were representative of all relevant scenarios -- no one concern or scenario is so broadly representative. Some not-super-realistic (IMO) scenarios have been put forth to make a point one way or another, and it does help to see what happens at the edges, but it's not helpful if we forget how (un)realistic particular scenarios are.

Macrolanguages are a mixed bag -- they're not all the same. Chinese is only one case; Norwegian is only one case; Arabic is only one case. Macrolanguages are also a limited set in the big scheme of things; and only a small portion involve significant existing usage (notice that we keep coming back to a small set of examples), but I think it's the widespread existing usage of some macrolanguage IDs that creates the concerns people have -- for those cases only. For example, consider Cree: if we were to say, "Content SHOULD be tagged using the language subtag for the specific, encompassed language, though the language subtag for the macrolanguage MAY be used in a given application context if there are particular reasons," I doubt there'd be much confusion over what guidance was being given on how to tag, and I doubt there would be much concern over whether filtering/lookup/fallback could work in a reasonably acceptable way -- not perfect by any means, but workable. Of course, I understand concerns over arbitrariness in trying to partition macrolanguage cases into the widespread/not widespread use.

I better stop here... I fear I'm starting to ramble.



Peter

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References: <mailman.494.1210865385.5128.ltru@ietf.org><00a901c8b6f5$c04529a0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><30b660a20805161108w578b6cf9g11933ca34996a596@mail.gmail.com><005901c8b787$930f98c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><30b660a20805161309u67158b6arcb3b2df1c46db6a7@mail.gmail.com><C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561554BEB09@NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com><30b660a20805161415kb1172f0xa6c4dea251344bb6@mail.gmail.com><4832C21A.4050800@malform.no><30b660a20805201344m22f0f40cmdfba059b0123e477@mail.gmail.com><4834D693.10505@malform.no><30b660a20805212357h1cb04c00k86a64ba6621151ab@mail.gmail.com><48380784.7000001@malform.no>	<DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579562E2A40FC3@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com><014d01c8be91$7a61bc20$0201a8c0@streamserve.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Leif Halvard Silli wrote:
> >  a) See above quote, which I see as saying that extlangs will
> >     not provide the benefits claimed by the extlang proponents.
> 
> 
> The benefits are for the minority language users, in contexts of
> negotiation between majority and minority encompassed language.
> Would be interesting to hear more why you don't see any benefits.

As others have said already:

1) Fallback to language tag prefix does not apply to content
   negotiation (except as an extraordinary measure for misconfigured
   web browsers).

2) Even when fallback to language tag prefix does apply, it is more
   often than not inappropriate to fall back to a macrolanguage. In
   many cases it would be *akin to* letting Norwegian fall back to
   German (or any other Germanic language), just because both languages
   are Germanic (and German is "larger" than Norwegian; English is even
   "larger", but using that in this example would cloud my point since
   most (not very old) people that know Norwegian also know English).
   That would be bad, not only for language understandability reasons,
   but in some cases it can also be politically sensitive. Both of
   which we should stay out of.

3) Language preference lists, for content negotiation and similar, is
   a more general approach, and is easier to apply in a non-extlang
   model than in an extlang model (as examples from others have shown),
   avoiding numerous "q=0" entries to rule out some languages.

> >  b) The exceptions to extlang application, for various reasons,
> >     like for nn/nb and other instances, are already numerous.
> 
> 
> nn/nb is a situation where the the mutual command of all the (two)
> encompassed languages by all native speakers is fostered. Wheras

Even so, and even though 'no' ('nor') is a macrolanguage code for nn/nb
(or nno/nob), extlang does not apply to nn/nb for backwards compatibility
reasons.

> >  c) No extlangs is a simpler model, both syntactically and
> >     use-wise, and often have advantages over extlangs.
> > 
> > So a no-extlang model is simpler to explain and apply, and
> 
> For whom?

Everyone. Users, software developers, you and me, this WG, IETF, IANA, ...
A language code can then always be in the first position, not sometimes
mostly arbitrarily forced to be in the second position (as an extlang).
It will not introduce new false fallback to prefix, not introduce new
politically sensitive fallbacks/prefixes, leave users with more easily
managed language preference lists, etc.

	/kent k

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 10:30:44AM +0200,
 Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> wrote 
 a message of 63 lines which said:

> A language code can then always be in the first position, not
> sometimes mostly arbitrarily forced to be in the second position (as
> an extlang).

If we go back to what was planned in RFC 4646, an extlang can be in
the third or fourth position as well :-}
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This is off-topic, but may be helpful anyway.

At 06:30 08/05/26, Peter Constable wrote:
>> From: Leif Halvard Silli [mailto:lhs@malform.no]
>
>> > My hunch is that, for most macrolanguage cases, most users would not
>> be able to handle most of the encompassed languages. If that's the case,
>> then you're making an argument *against* extlang.
>> >
>>
>> And if your hunch is wrong, you are making an argument for Extlang.
>
>Not necessarily. If a implies b, it does not logically follow that not b 
>implies not a.

Well, in classical logic, "not b implies not a" indeed logically
follows from "a implies b". That only breaks down if you remove
the law of the excluded middle, if you no longer have "a or not a = TRUE".

Regards,   Martin.

>Besides, I doubt my hunch is wrong: AFAIK, it's not the case that most 
>Chinese are able to handle most Chinese languages; it's not the case that 
>most Quechua are able to handle most Quechuan languages; it's not the case 
>that most Zapotec are able to handle most Zapotec languages.



#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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Kent Karlsson 2008-05-26 10.30:

> Leif Halvard Silli wrote:
>> >  a) See above quote, which I see as saying that extlangs will
>> >     not provide the benefits claimed by the extlang proponents.
>> 
>> The benefits are for the minority language users, in contexts of
>> negotiation between majority and minority encompassed language.
>> Would be interesting to hear more why you don't see any benefits.
> 
> As others have said already:
> 
> 1) Fallback to language tag prefix does not apply to content
>    negotiation (except as an extraordinary measure for misconfigured
>    web browsers).


This misunderstanding has been stated by both sides. I have 
accepted the facts here.

 
> 2) Even when fallback to language tag prefix does apply, it is more
>    often than not inappropriate to fall back to a macrolanguage. In
>    many cases it would be *akin to* letting Norwegian fall back to
>    German (or any other Germanic language), just because both languages
>    are Germanic (and German is "larger" than Norwegian; English is even
>    "larger", but using that in this example would cloud my point since
>    most (not very old) people that know Norwegian also know English).
>    That would be bad, not only for language understandability reasons,
>    but in some cases it can also be politically sensitive. Both of
>    which we should stay out of.


1. If the user has stated a preference of "zh-yum, fr", then "fr" 
  will be preferred before the server starts looking for 
"zh-whatever". Hardly a problem.

2. If, however, neither "fr" nor "zh-yum" nor "zh-whatever" is 
found, causing the web server to try the extraordinary fallback 
that you mention in your first point, then the user will get 'zh', 
if available. Hardly politically problematic.

3. I will tell you (repeat, or perhaps I said it on another list) 
one problem that I see: You might have problems getting Apache's 
ForceLanguagePriority settings to work as you wish. Imagine that 
you offer 'sv' and 'zh-cmn' on your web server, and if you have 
set up 'sv' to be the ForcedLanguagePriority when the user neither 
prefers 'zh-cmn' nor 'sv'. Then a user who prefers "zh-yum, fr" 
will still get "zh-cmn"  (and even 'zh', if you offer it, via the 
"extraordinary fallback") instead of 'sv'. This could be a problem.

However, even if Apach considers "en-GB" a misconfigured browser 
and performs the "extraordinary fallback" to "en", it should  not 
treat "zh-yum" the same way and fallback to "zh". That is one 
issue solved. I don't know if the "normal fallback" can be solved.

As I see it, extlang is supposed to handle the issues dealing with 
negotiation between encompassed languages. It is supposed to 
handle teh problems of minority language users inside a sea of 
dominant encompassed language resources. And it handles such cases 
very well, I think.

But outside that "sea", in the diaspora and such things, the 
extlang solution has the above mentioned problem. However, even 
then, the problem could be rather small, because, it is likely 
that a user visiting a page which is offered in "sv" and "zh-cmn" 
will have a browser that is set up to prefer "sv" or "zh-cmn".

Some would say that if you are in macrolanguage situation where 
ther is close to zero intelligibility between the encompassed 
languges, then this problem would cause problems. Well, no. If we 
have a situation where each encompassed language web site only 
offers one language, then being served the available encompassed 
language equals a "Forced Fallback" situation. If, however, we are 
in a situation - as we often are - were Spanish or another 
language outside the Macrolanguage is used as linguage franca, 
then the browsers will include Spanish in its preferences, and 
then Spanish will always be preferred over the encompassed 
language (unless the user has used the Macrolanguage tag - but 
that would be a problem both with and without extlang).

> 3) Language preference lists, for content negotiation and similar, is
>    a more general approach, and is easier to apply in a non-extlang
>    model than in an extlang model (as examples from others have shown),
>    avoiding numerous "q=0" entries to rule out some languages.


The political problems are exaggerated. See above. And there are 
also political advantages.

>> >  b) The exceptions to extlang application, for various reasons,
>> >     like for nn/nb and other instances, are already numerous.
>> 
>> 
>> nn/nb is a situation where the the mutual command of all the (two)
>> encompassed languages by all native speakers is fostered. Wheras
> 
> Even so, and even though 'no' ('nor') is a macrolanguage code for nn/nb
> (or nno/nob), extlang does not apply to nn/nb for backwards compatibility
> reasons.

The Norwegian case is still valid as an example of what extlang 
can/cannot do for a Macrolanguage situation.

>> >  c) No extlangs is a simpler model, both syntactically and
>> >     use-wise, and often have advantages over extlangs.
>> > 
>> > So a no-extlang model is simpler to explain and apply, an	d
>> 
>> For whom?
> 
> Everyone. Users, software developers, you and me, this WG, IETF, IANA, ...
> A language code can then always be in the first position, not sometimes
> mostly arbitrarily forced to be in the second position (as an extlang).
> It will not introduce new false fallback to prefix, not introduce new
> politically sensitive fallbacks/prefixes, leave users with more easily
> managed language preference lists, etc.

I answered the claim about "false fallback" and the political 
"dimenson" above.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 09:30:21 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Macrolanguage usage
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Kent Karlsson


> 2) Even when fallback to language tag prefix does apply, it is more
>    often than not inappropriate to fall back to a macrolanguage...

I'd suggest that, in just those cases, it's probably not helpful, in general, to tag content/resources with the macrolanguage ID. Of course, that is just what librarians have sometimes done, though their situation may be exceptional: I suspect they do this when dealing with smaller volumes of content and/or in languages of lower demand such that it is not cost effective to tag the content more specifically.


> > > So a no-extlang model is simpler to explain and apply, and
> >
> > For whom?
>
> Everyone. Users, software developers, you and me, this WG, IETF,
> IANA, ...
> A language code can then always be in the first position, not sometimes
> mostly arbitrarily forced to be in the second position (as an extlang).
> It will not introduce new false fallback to prefix, not introduce new
> politically sensitive fallbacks/prefixes, leave users with more easily
> managed language preference lists, etc.

This covers concerns expressed to me about complexity of extlang.


Peter
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli


> As I see it, extlang is supposed to handle the issues dealing with
> negotiation between encompassed languages.

The reasons extlang was originally proposed were:

- it would allow a set of already-registered tags such as zh-yue to change from being grandfathered to being redundant (they would fall out generatively)

- it would all truncate-from-right fallback to provide a match in cases in which the macrolanguage ID was already in widespread use

The former was relevant only to Chinese.

The latter makes sense only if it can be assumed that content tagged aa-bbb would be a reasonable match for requests for aa. That may be valid in cases such as content in zh-cmn or ar-arb (i.e. a predominant language) or in cases in which the encompassed languages really are mutually intelligible (sh-??? would be fitting examples except that sh is among cases in which extlang would not have been used). It is probably not valid, however, in all the other cases, e.g. when the content is zh-yue or ar-auz. Thus, I think it may be fair to say that when extlang was first proposed the putative benefits wrt right-truncation fallback had not been thought through carefully.


> > Even so, and even though 'no' ('nor') is a macrolanguage code for
> nn/nb
> > (or nno/nob), extlang does not apply to nn/nb for backwards
> compatibility
> > reasons.
>
> The Norwegian case is still valid as an example of what extlang
> can/cannot do for a Macrolanguage situation.

Yet, indeed, Norwegian is one case for which it had been assumed extlang would *not* be used.



Peter
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> From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp]


> > If a implies b, it does not logically follow that not
> b
> >implies not a.
>
> Well, in classical logic, "not b implies not a" indeed logically
> follows from "a implies b". That only breaks down if you remove
> the law of the excluded middle, if you no longer have "a or not a =
> TRUE".

Doh!! My VERY bad. Of course, what I was thinking of is that "not a implies not b" does not logically follow from "a implies b".



Peter
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Mon May 26 10:09:06 2008
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Dear All,

So, if we go with extlang, how should I tag some Mandarin text? Let's say I am creating content. I have no history of previous tagging and I have no idea whether the text is also in any other language?

zh-cmn or cmn?

And also please can someone explain why, because I'm going to have to teach this to a very confused set of users (not least of which is me).

Yours,
Martin
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Mon May 26 10:09:16 2008
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:doug@ewellic.org]
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:32 AM


> > Well, it is and it isn't: we allowed for them in the syntax of 4646,
> > but we didn't implement them. It's the actual implementation that
> > would represent a significant departure.
>
> We designed the extension mechanism in RFC 4646, but haven't
> implemented
> that either.  If someone wrote an extension RFC for singleton 'a' and
> we
> started having tags of the form "en-a-whatever", would that constitute
> a
> major architectural change from RFC 4646?

No, though extensions would probably be used for tagging entirely new kinds of information. Using aa(a)-bbb(-ccc) for exactly the same category of information (language in the strict sense) when only aa(a) has been used before (except for a set of registered tags for Chineses) would be a significant change, I think.

But I did agree we you at least to the extent that the objection was overstated.



Peter
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Mon May 26 10:47:21 2008
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Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:

> 1. If the user has stated a preference of "zh-yum, fr", then "fr" 
>   will be preferred before the server starts looking for 
> "zh-whatever". Hardly a problem.

Not quite.

If you specify "zh, fr" you will get the available "zh-*" (or a 300
Multiple Responses result if there is more than one).  Only if there
are none will the server look for "fr-*".

If you specify "zh-yue, fr", you will get the available "zh-yue-*"
resource, or if none, then the available "fr-*"; by extension to HTTP,
some servers will then look for "zh".  In no case will "zh-*" other than
"zh-yue" be returned.

-- 
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org   http://ccil.org/~cowan
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Martin Hosken scripsit:

> So, if we go with extlang, how should I tag some Mandarin text? Let's
> say I am creating content. I have no history of previous tagging and
> I have no idea whether the text is also in any other language?

I don't understand that: if you know it's Mandarin, you surely know it
isn't anything else.  Text is not both Mandarin and Cantonese at the
same time (except for the highly artificial situation in Hong Kong of
reading Mandarin text word by word using Cantonese equivalents).

But let's say it's Mandarin.

> zh-cmn or cmn?

"cmn" is not an option if we use extlang, so your choice is between
"zh-cmn" and "zh"?  Both have been used in the past, though "zh" much
more so.  "zh-cmn" is theoretically more specific (it excludes all
non-Mandarin varieties); in practice, though, almost all texts tagged
simply "zh" are in Mandarin, partly because almost all Chinese texts
are in Mandarin anyhow.

-- 
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Only hungry: yes, we are hungry.  A few little fishes, nassty bony little
fishes, for a poor creature, and they say death.  So wise they are; so just,
so very just.  --Gollum        cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 07:58:59PM -0700,
 Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote 
 a message of 33 lines which said:

> As WG co-chair...
> 
> Ok, I've tallied the responses. 

Do note that your message in the archives is truncated
<http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg10482.html>,
probably because of the word "F r o m" at the beginning of a line.

The problem has been reported to the secretariat [rt.amsl.com
#7581]. In the mean time, it is better to avoid the word which starts
with F :-)
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Mon May 26 13:03:36 2008
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Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 22:02:37 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
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On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 12:08:59AM +0700,
 Martin Hosken <martin_hosken@sil.org> wrote 
 a message of 14 lines which said:

> So, if we go with extlang, how should I tag some Mandarin text?

I assume that the current plan is to go back to
draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09, the last one with extlangs.

> zh-cmn or cmn?

Section 2.2.2 of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-09 says "zh-cmn" (the
canonical tag for mandarin) and just adds:

   The
   language subtag 'zh' can still be used without an extended language
   subtag to label a resource as some unspecified variety of Chinese
   (which in practice will usually be Mandarin, the dominant variety of
   Chinese, but might also be some other variety).
 
> And also please can someone explain why, because I'm going to have
> to teach this to a very confused set of users (not least of which is
> me).

If someone understands the recent tide that switched the previous
consensus, please reply here :-)

PS: people who understand "fr" are welcome to read
<http://www.bortzmeyer.org/extlang-or-not-extlang.html>
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-26 04.31:

> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
> 
>> I'll make a proposal to myself: Don't think alloud. You will be 
>> Constabled, Doughed, Krebsed for it.
> 
> Feel free to think aloud; new ideas are always welcome.  But when others 
> in the group -- some of whom have worked on this project for 5 years or 
> more -- say "No, that won't work, and here's why," consider that they 
> may have some idea what they are talking about.

I may have placed myself in a suitable position for being slashed. 
(Norwegian saying.) But I'll try to take note of both of your 
messages.
-- 
with regards,
leif halvard silli
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At 14:46 08/05/26, Randy Presuhn wrote:
>Hi -
>
>> From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
>> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
>> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>>
>> This is crazy; we do not have consensus to introduce a major architectural
>> change from RFC4646.
>...
>
>As I see it, the alternative, since we've been unable to
>reach closure, is to shut down the WG.  Folks interested in the
>subject could then request a new working group when they come up
>with a solution.  We're far behind schedule, and the debate, while
>excruciatingly voluminous, has produced little progress.  I'm
>ready to say "to heck with it" and recommend closure of the WG,
>as unsatisfactory as I know that would be.
>
>But let's wait to see whether Martin reads the responses differently
>from how I did, or if he adds the numbers differently.


I will look into this tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.  Regrads,  Martin.


>If he comes
>to the same conclusion as I did, then you may, if you wish, appeal
>to our Area Director under RFC 2026 section 6.5.1, challenging whether
>we've provided adequate opportunity for your views to be considered,
>or claiming that this is a technical error which would put the BCP 47
>update "in significant jeopardy."
>
>Randy
>ltru co-chair
>
>_______________________________________________
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#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 20:03:11 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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I will. The problem with this way of settling the question is that it is
clear that many people who responded still don't understand some of the
basic facts, such as what Peter relates:

"Please note very carefully: the definition of macrolanguage entails that
the range of varieties is treated as a single language in some application
context. That does *not* entail that the encompassed varieties are mutually
intelligible, or that there is any one encompassed variety that is
intelligible to all the others. Certainly no claim is made in ISO 639 that
either is true. Whether or not either is true for any macrolanguage is an
empirical question."


At least one of those voting appears to be against Q1 while not realizing
that Q2 also means no "no-nb" or "no-nn". (At least by the text of pre
December.)

If these technical decisions are to be decided on technical merit, and not
just a popularity contest among those that happen to be on this list, then
we should consider each of the applications of language tags:
identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and be able to have
a reasoned judgment on the technical merits.

We will also need to see exact proposed text for the alternative (extlang).
The text of 5 months ago has not undergone the same kind of thorough
examination that draft 14 has.

As to my remark earlier, RFC4646 says nothing about macrolanguages, nothing
about relegating ISO 639 languages -- for whatever reason -- to the extlang
position. And extlang breaks mutual intelligibility of fallback in a
fundamentally different way than 4646. So I do view this as an major
architectural change.

I have been a strong proponent of RFC 4646. But I can't see any way to sell
software developers on the ways in which extlang would require a radical
change, eg that the Accept-Language value meaning 'Mandarin then French'
would be

   - under RFC 4646: "zh, fr"
   - under this proposal: "zh-cmn, zh, fr, zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0,
   zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0, zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0,
   zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0".

Mark

On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 10:46 PM, Randy Presuhn <
randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Hi -
>
> > From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> > To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> >
> > This is crazy; we do not have consensus to introduce a major
> architectural
> > change from RFC4646.
> ...
>
> As I see it, the alternative, since we've been unable to
> reach closure, is to shut down the WG.  Folks interested in the
> subject could then request a new working group when they come up
> with a solution.  We're far behind schedule, and the debate, while
> excruciatingly voluminous, has produced little progress.  I'm
> ready to say "to heck with it" and recommend closure of the WG,
> as unsatisfactory as I know that would be.
>
> But let's wait to see whether Martin reads the responses differently
> from how I did, or if he adds the numbers differently.  If he comes
> to the same conclusion as I did, then you may, if you wish, appeal
> to our Area Director under RFC 2026 section 6.5.1, challenging whether
> we've provided adequate opportunity for your views to be considered,
> or claiming that this is a technical error which would put the BCP 47
> update "in significant jeopardy."
>
> Randy
> ltru co-chair
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I will.&nbsp;The problem with this way of settling the question is that it is clear that many people who responded still don&#39;t understand some of the basic facts, such as what Peter relates:<div><br></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">

&quot;<span style="border-collapse:collapse">Please note very carefully: the definition of macrolanguage entails that the range of varieties is treated as a single language in some application context. That does *not* entail that the encompassed varieties are mutually intelligible, or that there is any one encompassed variety that is intelligible to all the others. Certainly no claim is made in ISO 639 that either is true. Whether or not either is true for any macrolanguage is an empirical question.&quot;</span></blockquote>

<div><span style="border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></div><div><span style="border-collapse:collapse">At least one of those voting appears to be against Q1 while not realizing that Q2 <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold;">also</span> means no &quot;no-nb&quot; or &quot;no-nn&quot;. (At least by the text of pre December.)</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></div><div><span style="border-collapse:collapse">If these technical decisions are to be decided on technical merit, and not just a popularity contest among those that happen to be on this list, then we should consider each of the applications of language tags: identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and be able to have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">We will also need to see exact proposed text for the alternative (extlang). The text of 5 months ago has not undergone the same kind of thorough examination that draft 14 has.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></div>

<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">As to my remark earlier, RFC4646 says <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold;">nothing</span> about macrolanguages, nothing about&nbsp;<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: &#39;Lucida Grande&#39;; font-size: 10px; white-space: pre; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial; font-size: 13px; white-space: normal; ">relegating ISO 639 languages -- for whatever reason -- to the extlang position. And extlang breaks mutual intelligibility of fallback in a fundamentally different way than 4646. So I do view this as an major architectural change.</span></span></span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: &#39;Lucida Grande&#39;; font-size: 10px; white-space: pre; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial; font-size: 13px; white-space: normal; ">I have been a strong proponent of RFC 4646. But I can&#39;t see any way to sell software developers on the ways in which extlang would require a radical change, eg that the Accept-Language value&nbsp;meaning &#39;Mandarin then French&#39; would be</span></span></span></div>
<div><ul><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; ">under RFC 4646: &quot;zh, fr&quot;</span></li><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; ">under this proposal: &quot;zh-cmn,&nbsp;zh,&nbsp;fr,&nbsp;zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0, zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0, zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0&quot;.</span><br>
</li></ul></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; ">Mark</span><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 10:46 PM, Randy Presuhn &lt;<a href="mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com" target="_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>


<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi -<br>
<br>
&gt; From: &quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org" target="_blank">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com" target="_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:32 PM<br>
<div>&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang<br>
&gt;<br>
</div><div>&gt; This is crazy; we do not have consensus to introduce a major architectural<br>
&gt; change from RFC4646.<br>
</div>...<br>
<br>
As I see it, the alternative, since we&#39;ve been unable to<br>
reach closure, is to shut down the WG. &nbsp;Folks interested in the<br>
subject could then request a new working group when they come up<br>
with a solution. &nbsp;We&#39;re far behind schedule, and the debate, while<br>
excruciatingly voluminous, has produced little progress. &nbsp;I&#39;m<br>
ready to say &quot;to heck with it&quot; and recommend closure of the WG,<br>
as unsatisfactory as I know that would be.<br>
<br>
But let&#39;s wait to see whether Martin reads the responses differently<br>
from how I did, or if he adds the numbers differently. &nbsp;If he comes<br>
to the same conclusion as I did, then you may, if you wish, appeal<br>
to our Area Director under RFC 2026 section 6.5.1, challenging whether<br>
we&#39;ve provided adequate opportunity for your views to be considered,<br>
or claiming that this is a technical error which would put the BCP 47<br>
update &quot;in significant jeopardy.&quot;<br>
<div><div></div><div><br>
Randy<br>
ltru co-chair<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
</div>

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Mark Davis scripsit:

> I have been a strong proponent of RFC 4646. But I can't see any way to sell
> software developers on the ways in which extlang would require a radical
> change, eg that the Accept-Language value meaning 'Mandarin then French'
> would be
> 
>    - under RFC 4646: "zh, fr"
>    - under this proposal: "zh-cmn, zh, fr, zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0,
>    zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0, zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0,
>    zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0".

Actually, to get *exactly* the same effect under RFC 4646 you'd need to
say "zh-cmn, zh, fr, zh-gan;q=0, zh-hakka;q=0, zh-min-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0;
zh-xiang;q=0, zh-yue;q=0", and that's not counting the deprecated forms.

-- 
In politics, obedience and support      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
are the same thing.  --Hannah Arendt    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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John Cowan 2008-05-26 19.47:

> Leif Halvard Silli scripsit:
> 
>> 1. If the user has stated a preference of "zh-yum, fr", then "fr" 
>>   will be preferred before the server starts looking for 
>> "zh-whatever". Hardly a problem.
> 
> Not quite.
> 
> If you specify "zh, fr" you will get the available "zh-*" (or a 300
> Multiple Responses result if there is more than one).  Only if there
> are none will the server look for "fr-*".
> 
> If you specify "zh-yue, fr", you will get the available "zh-yue-*"
> resource, or if none, then the available "fr-*"; by extension to HTTP,
> some servers will then look for "zh".  In no case will "zh-*" other than
> "zh-yue" be returned.

After a new test with new files, I stand corrected.

(I have a file which, for some reason, makes Apache behave like I 
said - well, almost. Tested on two computers, Apache 1.3 and 2.)
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Hi -

From: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: Consensus call: extlang
...
> Do note that your message in the archives is truncated
> <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg10482.html>,
> probably because of the word "F r o m" at the beginning of a line.


Argh!  Here it is again, for the sake of the archives:

> From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 7:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
> Hi -
> 
> As WG co-chair...
> 
> Ok, I've tallied the responses.  One was sent directly to me, rather
> than to the ltru@ietf.org mailing list.  One was sent after the deadline.
> Here's the tally including those two:
> 
> Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4
> Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4
> 
> Excluding those two responses, it looks like:
> Q1: A-3 B-9 C-3
> Q2: A-7 B-5 C-3
> 
> From this I'm concluding that we have a *rough* consensus to
> "reinstate" extlang.
> 
> This was not an easy decision, and it was not undertaken lightly,
> particularly since we'd been working on the assumption that we'd
> polished of the extlang issue some months ago.
> 
> However, with equal numbers objecting to each of the proposals,
> and a 2-to-1 preference for Q2 among those favoring a proposal,
> I think the sense of the WG is clear enough for us to move on.
> 
> Randy
> ltru co-chair


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Hi -

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
...
> As to my remark earlier, RFC4646 says nothing about macrolanguages, nothing
> about relegating ISO 639 languages -- for whatever reason -- to the extlang
> position. And extlang breaks mutual intelligibility of fallback in a
> fundamentally different way than 4646. So I do view this as an major
> architectural change.
...

That is precisely why the consensus call was put in very narrow terms of
bringing back the extlang production.  If one brings it back, there remain
plenty of other questions, and it would hardly be fair to bundle those
questions with this one.

Randy

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Mark Davis 2008-05-27 05.03:

> At least one of those voting appears to be against Q1 while not 
> realizing that Q2 also means no "no-nb" or "no-nn". (At least by the 
> text of pre December.)

One of those can tell you that your interpretation of his vote  is 
wrong. (But why not, when everything else I say gets turned and 
twisted.)

The one steadfast opinion I have had, is that since Norwegian and 
Serbo-Croatian and perhaps others two letter coded languages that 
are macrolanguages or encompassed langauges cannot be part of the 
Extlang approach, then no languages should follow the Extlang 
approach. This was also the reason behind why I made a proposal 
which would have made it possible to include even Norwegian.

Because, I thought we would all be given better treatment, better 
understanding of the Macrolanguage issues, if we had the same 
approach for all Macrolanguages. And I also therefore, while 
extlang was ruled out, tried to work with Addision to get 
improvements for the RFC to make is as good as possible, without 
Extlang.

However, finally I came to the conclusion, that an extlang 
approach is what I would have wanted for Norwegian. And therefore 
I decided to vote for Extlang so that at least other languages in 
similar situations could have the benefit of it.

So, I did not believe that I voted for anything else than the 
co-chair asked for. (He refuted my idea before we voted.) And it 
was Doug who suggested a vote on my proposal about allowing 
2-letter codes as extlang codes - so I must ask him to take 
responsibility for that that. When Doug took up the issue, and 
commented it, then I wanted to defend it, though. And it is true 
that I did not publically "put down the arms" before Doug asked 
me, after the vote.

I hope this clarifies.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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> As to my remark earlier, RFC4646 says nothing about macrolanguages..
2.2.2 Clearly states that "extlang" is reserved for future standardization.=
  Enough information is given that eager early adopters could've coded for =
that as well.

> ... that the Accept-Language value meaning 'Mandarin then French' would b=
e

 *   under RFC 4646: "zh, fr"
 *   under this proposal: "zh-cmn, zh, fr, zh-cjy;q=3D0, zh-cpx;q=3D0, zh-c=
zh;q=3D0, zh-czo;q=3D0, zh-gan;q=3D0, zh-hak;q=3D0, zh-hsn;q=3D0, zh-mnp;q=
=3D0, zh-nan;q=3D0, zh-wuu;q=3D0, zh-yue;q=3D0".

Under RFC 4646 "zh, fr" doesn't mean "Mandarin, then French" it means "Chin=
ese, then french".



Under the latest draft "cmn, zh, fr" also wouldn't mean "Mandarin, then Fre=
nch", it'd be "Mandarin, then Chinese, then French".  Without the "zh" you'=
d fail to match legacy data.



I'm truly on the fence, leaning a bit toward no-extlang, and if extlang was=
 permitted, then only allow it in explicit cases like Chinese, however your=
 statements seem to ignore the problems with a no-extlang solution.  It is =
also unclear to me if you want "zh" to be an alias for Mandarin.  From your=
 comments above it would seem that you do.  I don't think that's acceptable=
, I think that "zh" must allow for the possibility that the language may no=
t be Mandarin.



- Shawn



--_000_C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561573585C0NAEXMSGC116re_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html dir=3D"ltr"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<meta content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6001.18023" name=3D"GENERATOR">
<style title=3D"owaParaStyle">P {
	MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px
}
</style>
</head>
<body ocsi=3D"x">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE:=
 collapse"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">&gt;
</font>As to my remark earlier, RFC4646 says <span class=3D"Apple-style-spa=
n" style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
nothing</span> about macrolanguages..</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span=
" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE:=
 collapse"><font face=3D"times new roman">2.2.2 Clearly states that &quot;e=
xtlang&quot;&nbsp;is reserved for future standardization.&nbsp; Enough info=
rmation is given that eager early adopters could've coded for
 that as well.</font></span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE:=
 collapse"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font></span><span class=3D"Appl=
e-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">&nbsp;</div>
</span>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><=
span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Luc=
ida Grande'; WHITE-SPACE: pre; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate"><span class=3D"Ap=
ple-style-span" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial; WHITE-SPACE: =
normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">&gt;&nbsp;...
 that the Accept-Language value&nbsp;meaning 'Mandarin then French' would b=
e</span></span></span></div>
<ul>
<li><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">un=
der RFC 4646: &quot;zh, fr&quot;</span>
</li><li><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collaps=
e">under this proposal: &quot;zh-cmn,&nbsp;zh,&nbsp;fr,&nbsp;zh-cjy;q=3D0, =
zh-cpx;q=3D0, zh-czh;q=3D0, zh-czo;q=3D0, zh-gan;q=3D0, zh-hak;q=3D0, zh-hs=
n;q=3D0, zh-mnp;q=3D0, zh-nan;q=3D0, zh-wuu;q=3D0, zh-yue;q=3D0&quot;.</spa=
n></li></ul>
<p><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><fo=
nt face=3D"times new roman">Under RFC 4646 &quot;zh, fr&quot; doesn't mean =
&quot;Mandarin, then French&quot; it means &quot;Chinese, then french&quot;=
.</font></span></p>
<p><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"></s=
pan>&nbsp;</p>
<p><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">Und=
er the latest draft &quot;cmn, zh, fr&quot; also wouldn't mean &quot;Mandar=
in, then French&quot;, it'd be &quot;Mandarin, then Chinese, then French&qu=
ot;.&nbsp; Without the &quot;zh&quot; you'd fail to match legacy data.</spa=
n></p>
<p><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><fo=
nt face=3D"times new roman"></font></span>&nbsp;</p>
<p><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><fo=
nt face=3D"times new roman">I'm truly on the fence, leaning a bit toward no=
-extlang, and if extlang was permitted, then only allow it in explicit case=
s like Chinese, however your statements
 seem to ignore the problems with a no-extlang solution.&nbsp; It is also u=
nclear to me if you want &quot;zh&quot; to be an alias for Mandarin.&nbsp; =
&gt;From your comments above it would seem that you do.&nbsp; I don't think tha=
t's acceptable, I think that &quot;zh&quot; must allow for the possibility
 that the language may not be Mandarin.</font></span></p>
<p><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><fo=
nt face=3D"times new roman"></font></span>&nbsp;</p>
<p><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><fo=
nt face=3D"times new roman">- Shawn</font></span></p>
<p><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><fo=
nt face=3D"times new roman"></font></span>&nbsp;</p>
</body>
</html>

--_000_C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561573585C0NAEXMSGC116re_--

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Mon May 26 23:17:48 2008
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I'm wondering if there is a compromise?

Specifically I'm wondering if people would consider a no-extlang solution, however allow zh-cmn and zh-yue as a true alias (eg: not grandfathered) of cmn and yue?  My suggestion is that this would be limited to only the specific languages known to be a problem.  This would have its own set of concerns, however perhaps we could continue from the current draft...

Mostly I'm just thinking out loud.  I would like to make sure that most (I'd say all, but there seem to be a few diametrically opposed views) everyone's concerns are addressed in a way they feel comfortable with.

- Shawn
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 27 01:02:23 2008
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At 05:02 08/05/27, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:

>PS: people who understand "fr" are welcome to read
><http://www.bortzmeyer.org/extlang-or-not-extlang.html>

Nice writeup. The only suggestion I have is to make the actual tags
and subtags stick out more, maybe with a light blue background or
something.

Regards,   Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli


> The one steadfast opinion I have had, is that since Norwegian and
> Serbo-Croatian and perhaps others two letter coded languages that
> are macrolanguages or encompassed langauges cannot be part of the
> Extlang approach, then no languages should follow the Extlang
> approach...

> However, finally I came to the conclusion, that an extlang
> approach is what I would have wanted for Norwegian. And therefore
> I decided to vote for Extlang so that at least other languages in
> similar situations could have the benefit of it.

And yet, not all other macrolanguage cases are similar situations to Norwegian or to Serbo-Croatian.

So is it perhaps still the case that you might have voted against Q1 and for Q2 without realizing that Q2 did not have the same benefits for as many cases as you thought?



Peter
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:54:13 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sha=
wn Steele

>>=A0... that the Accept-Language value meaning 'Mandarin then French' woul=
d be
>> * under RFC 4646: "zh, fr"
>> * under this proposal: "zh-cmn, zh, fr, zh-cjy;q=3D0, zh-cpx;q=3D0, zh-c=
zh;q=3D0,
>> zh-czo;q=3D0, zh-gan;q=3D0, zh-hak;q=3D0, zh-hsn;q=3D0, zh-mnp;q=3D0, zh=
-nan;q=3D0,
>> zh-wuu;q=3D0, zh-yue;q=3D0".
>
> Under RFC 4646 "zh, fr" doesn't mean "Mandarin, then French" it means
> "Chinese, then french".

Mark: Shawn has a valid point here: you present the two from unequal sets o=
f premises without clarifying that difference, thus (unintentionally, I'm s=
ure) giving a subtly deceiving argument.

All of the zh-??? tags have be valid for 4646 as they would be for a 4646bi=
s with extlang. Thus, all other things being equal, the Accept-Language val=
ue "zh, fr" should have just the same meaning and effect in the latter as f=
or the former, as should the value "zh-cmn, zh, ...".

I think that perhaps the contrast you present here is best described not as=
 that between 4646 and a 4646bis *specifically with extlang*, but rather be=
tween a situation in which "zh" is predominantly used and a situation in wh=
ich it is recommended that content be tagged for the specific, encompassed =
Chinese language rather than being tagged generically as "zh" -- a situatio=
n that could obtain under 4646 as well as under 4646bis. And if that situat=
ion obtained in a 4646-without-extlang world, then the corresponding Accept=
-Language value would be "cmn, zh, fr, cjy;q=3D0, cpx;q=3D0, ..."


While I was the proto-proponent for extlang, I've come to lean toward no-ex=
tlang since, to the extent that I've been able to think through scenarios,

- it seems to me that the benefits are far more limited than what I initial=
ly was supposing, and

- because one of the benefits is to slip fallback relationships into a smal=
l set of tags whereas in general good fallback needs a lot more -- true for=
 cases related to macrolanguages let alone for the very many more cases not=
 related to any macrolanguages.

I'm concerned, though, about such not-quite-careful-enough cases being made=
 for (or against): someone is likely to sense something not quite right and=
 come back, perhaps with an equally slightly-flawed case, in which event we=
 end up not making any progress. So, to your comment,

> we should consider each of the applications of language tags:
> identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and be
> able to have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits

I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully* reasoned judgment, pa=
using to make sure the arguments presented really do stand up.



Peter


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Subject: [Ltru] Applications and Backward Compatibility RE: Consensus call:
	extlang
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--===============1897117540==

Peter and Mark wrote:

> > we should consider each of the applications of language tags:
> > identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and
> be able to
> > have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits
>
> I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully*
> reasoned judgment, pausing to make sure the arguments
> presented really do stand up.

I think this is probably a good way forward.  It would be best to start a
new thread for each application.  I would also add backward compatibility
and historical usage to the pot.

Best regards

Debbie



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: 27 May 2008 09:54
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Shawn Steele
>
> >> ... that the Accept-Language value meaning 'Mandarin then French'
> >>would be
> >> * under RFC 4646: "zh, fr"
> >> * under this proposal: "zh-cmn, zh, fr, zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0,
> >>zh-czh;q=0,  zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0, zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0,
> >>zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0,  zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0".
> >
> > Under RFC 4646 "zh, fr" doesn't mean "Mandarin, then
> French" it means
> > "Chinese, then french".
>
> Mark: Shawn has a valid point here: you present the two from
> unequal sets of premises without clarifying that difference,
> thus (unintentionally, I'm sure) giving a subtly deceiving argument.
>
> All of the zh-??? tags have be valid for 4646 as they would
> be for a 4646bis with extlang. Thus, all other things being
> equal, the Accept-Language value "zh, fr" should have just
> the same meaning and effect in the latter as for the former,
> as should the value "zh-cmn, zh, ...".
>
> I think that perhaps the contrast you present here is best
> described not as that between 4646 and a 4646bis
> *specifically with extlang*, but rather between a situation
> in which "zh" is predominantly used and a situation in which
> it is recommended that content be tagged for the specific,
> encompassed Chinese language rather than being tagged
> generically as "zh" -- a situation that could obtain under
> 4646 as well as under 4646bis. And if that situation obtained
> in a 4646-without-extlang world, then the corresponding
> Accept-Language value would be "cmn, zh, fr, cjy;q=0, cpx;q=0, ..."
>
>
> While I was the proto-proponent for extlang, I've come to
> lean toward no-extlang since, to the extent that I've been
> able to think through scenarios,
>
> - it seems to me that the benefits are far more limited than
> what I initially was supposing, and
>
> - because one of the benefits is to slip fallback
> relationships into a small set of tags whereas in general
> good fallback needs a lot more -- true for cases related to
> macrolanguages let alone for the very many more cases not
> related to any macrolanguages.
>
> I'm concerned, though, about such not-quite-careful-enough
> cases being made for (or against): someone is likely to sense
> something not quite right and come back, perhaps with an
> equally slightly-flawed case, in which event we end up not
> making any progress. So, to your comment,
>
> > we should consider each of the applications of language tags:
> > identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and
> be able to
> > have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits
>
> I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully*
> reasoned judgment, pausing to make sure the arguments
> presented really do stand up.
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>





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--===============1897117540==--


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To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>,
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	LTRU Working Group<ltru@ietf.org>
From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Subject: [Ltru] Wondering about compromize (was: Re: Consensus call: extlang)
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[co-chair hat on]

Shawn, others, please rest assured that if we can find something that makes
more people happier than either of the two solutions that were recently
up for the consensus call, we will all I guess be very glad to go for that.

In the meantime, everybody, please change your subject a bit more often.

Regards,    Martin.

At 15:17 08/05/27, Shawn Steele wrote:
>I'm wondering if there is a compromise?
>
>Specifically I'm wondering if people would consider a no-extlang solution, 
>however allow zh-cmn and zh-yue as a true alias (eg: not grandfathered) of 
>cmn and yue?  My suggestion is that this would be limited to only the 
>specific languages known to be a problem.  This would have its own set of 
>concerns, however perhaps we could continue from the current draft...
>
>Mostly I'm just thinking out loud.  I would like to make sure that most 
>(I'd say all, but there seem to be a few diametrically opposed views) 
>everyone's concerns are addressed in a way they feel comfortable with.
>
>- Shawn
>_______________________________________________
>Ltru mailing list
>Ltru@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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[co-chair hat on]

At 12:03 08/05/27, Mark Davis wrote:
>I will. The problem with this way of settling the question is that it is clear that many people who responded still don't understand some of the basic facts,

Some people have been involved in this work for very long,
some others have joined very recently. Each person clearly
has a different background. For example, some focus more
on tagging, others focus more on processing, and so on.


>If these technical decisions are to be decided on technical merit, and not just a popularity contest among those that happen to be on this list,

The way the IETF works is to make sure all the technical
arguments are duely discussed. This discussion has been
going on for a very long time, so it's difficult to claim
that the arguments aren't on the table. (In particular, your
arguments are very nicely summarized on a page of yours
(Google document), which I have (re)read just recently.)
As we have seen, people can draw different conclusions
from all these arguments.

The IETF process is geared towards making the best technical
solution win, but when there are honest differences about
what's the best technical solution, it's very difficult to
satisfy everybody. That's why the IETF has the concept of
"rough" consensus.


>then we should consider each of the applications of language tags: identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and be able to have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits.

I assume everybody has done this. They may have weighted
different applications differently, or may have some
additional reasons for their judgement.


>We will also need to see exact proposed text for the alternative (extlang).

Of course, in due course.

>The text of 5 months ago has not undergone the same kind of thorough examination that draft 14 has.

My rough guess is that at least some of the text that was worked out
for draft 14 and before can be reused, with some changes, in particular
e.g. the text talking about 'zh' and whether and how much it means
Mandarin.


>As to my remark earlier, RFC4646 says nothing about macrolanguages,

The word 'macrolanguage' indeed doesn't appear in RFC 4646.

I might not be overly surprised if somebody who had only read
RFC 4646, and hadn't been involved in its production, would
come up with some claim like "a major architectural change from RFC4646".
However, you have been closely involved in the production of RFC 4646
(being one of it's editors) and in the email discussions surrounding
it and RFC 4646bis.

If you, or anybody else closely involved with this work, wants to
claim that they had absolutely no idea that the extlang production
in RFC 4646 was intended, at least among else if not primarily or
only, for encompassed languages, or more concretely, for cases such
as zh-yue and friends, then I'd be extremely surprised.

Also, please note that our charter says:

>>>>
The working group will prepare an update to the Language Subtag
Registry procedures to allow the use of 3-letter code elements
from ISO 639-3 as primary language subtags or extended language
subtags as appropriate.
>>>>

So it at least leaves open the possibility to use 639-3 codes
for extended language subtags. It is your due right to claim
that no 639-3 letter code is appropriate for an extended language
subtag, but there are obviously others who think differenty.

Please note that what I try to say above isn't in any way a technical
argument for or against extlangs; I'm just not sure where your
claim is comming from that the recent decision to go back to extlang
is "a major architectural change from RFC 4646".


>nothing about relegating ISO 639 languages -- for whatever reason -- to the extlang position.

'relegating' is an expression of a value judgement,
not a technical argument.



>On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 10:46 PM, Randy Presuhn <<mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:  
>Hi -
>> From: "Mark Davis" <<mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org>mark.davis@icu-project.org> 
>> To: "Randy Presuhn" <<mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> 
>> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <<mailto:ltru@ietf.org>ltru@ietf.org> 
>> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:32 PM 
>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang 
>> 
>> This is crazy; we do not have consensus to introduce a major architectural 
>> change from RFC4646. 
>...
>But let's wait to see whether Martin reads the responses differently 
>from how I did, or if he adds the numbers differently.

I have been working on this, but need a bit more time, sorry.

Regards,   Martin.



>If he comes 
>to the same conclusion as I did, then you may, if you wish, appeal 
>to our Area Director under RFC 2026 section 6.5.1, challenging whether 
>we've provided adequate opportunity for your views to be considered, 
>or claiming that this is a technical error which would put the BCP 47 
>update "in significant jeopardy."
>Randy 
>ltru co-chair
>_______________________________________________ 
>Ltru mailing list 
><mailto:Ltru@ietf.org>Ltru@ietf.org 
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Mark 
>_______________________________________________
>Ltru mailing list
>Ltru@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp      mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp    

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[co-chair hat on]

I don't think there is any specific IETF tradition on this point,
but I'd advise people to refrain from second-guessing other's
statements of preference.

Regards,    Martin.

At 17:08 08/05/27, Peter Constable wrote:
>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Leif Halvard Silli

...

>And yet, not all other macrolanguage cases are similar situations to 
>Norwegian or to Serbo-Croatian.
>
>So is it perhaps still the case that you might have voted against Q1 and 
>for Q2 without realizing that Q2 did not have the same benefits for as many 
>cases as you thought?
>
>
>
>Peter
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#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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[technical hat on]

At 12:21 08/05/27, John Cowan wrote:
>Mark Davis scripsit:
>
>> I have been a strong proponent of RFC 4646. But I can't see any way to sell
>> software developers on the ways in which extlang would require a radical
>> change, eg that the Accept-Language value meaning 'Mandarin then French'
>> would be
>> 
>>    - under RFC 4646: "zh, fr"
>>    - under this proposal: "zh-cmn, zh, fr, zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0,
>>    zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0, zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0,
>>    zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0".
>
>Actually, to get *exactly* the same effect under RFC 4646 you'd need to
>say "zh-cmn, zh, fr, zh-gan;q=0, zh-hakka;q=0, zh-min-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0;
>zh-xiang;q=0, zh-yue;q=0", and that's not counting the deprecated forms.

Yes, and it's not covering languages that haven't been registered
(e.g. zh-cjy, Jinyu Chinese, which may simply have been tagged 'zh'
in lack of anything better), so it seems impossible to get *exactly*
the same, anyway.

Regards,    Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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Stephane Bortzmeyer scripsit:

> PS: people who understand "fr" are welcome to read
> <http://www.bortzmeyer.org/extlang-or-not-extlang.html>

I fed it through Systran and fixed a few things.  My apologies for any
errors: I am no translator, and neither is Systran.

NOTE error in the original: for "zaa-zap" read "zap-zaa"; "zap" is the
macrolanguage tag.

Work group LTRU (Language Tag Registry Update) of the IETF is very late
in its project of standardization of the future labels of language,
those short character strings which make it possible to indicate the
language of a document or to specify the language which one wishes to use
on the Internet. One of the reasons of this delay is the endless debate on
"extlangs", these mechanisms making it possible to represent the concept
of "macrolanguage" introduced by the ISO standard 639-3. Approximately,
should Egyptian be labeled ar-arz or arz? And does Cantonese have to be
zh-yue or simply yue?

In the current standard, RFC 4646, language tags are made of several
subtags, each one identifying the language, the writing or the
country. The subtags which identify the language are drawn from ISO 639-1
or ISO 639-2, standards which place all languages on an equal footing.

But the world of human languages is complex. The traditional definition of
a language is the criterion of mutual comprehension. Despite differences
of accent, vocabulary and orthography, the English of Australia can be
understood by the Irish (sometimes with effort). It is thus the same
language, whose tag is "en". In the same way, so close relations who are
French and the Catalan, by their common origin, two speakers of these
two languages cannot understand each other.  They are thus correctly
two distinct languages, whose labels are "fr" and "ca".

Naturally, there exists a grey area: is Danish so different from
Norwegian? Moroccan Arabic from Tunisian? The case is all the more
difficult because certain languages are different in their oral forms
but less with the writing (this is precisely the case of Arabic). In one
way, there exists only one Arab language. In another, there are several
(which do not follow the national borders inevitably exactly). Sometimes,
history or politics contribute to scramble correct linguistic perceptions,
as in the case of Mandarin, often loosely called Chinese because it is
the language of the Chinese state.

To try to model this very complex world which was not conceived
rationally, SIL, the organization which was principally responsible for
the ISO 63 standard9-3 created a new concept, that of macrolanguages. A
macrolanguage is a single language according to certain criteria, and
a group of languages according to others. The two most famous examples
are Chinese (with the subtag "zh") and Arabic ("ar"). The registry of
ISO 639-3 thus indicates for each language if it is encompassed by a
macrolanguage. Cantonese is thus encompassed by Chinese. Immediately let
us note that the encompassed languages (sometimes called pejoratively
"microlanguages") are not dialects, they are distinct languages, typically
lacking mutual comprehensibility.

How to represent macrolanguages in the successor of RFC 4646? The
first idea, whose premises appear in RFC 4646, was to use a new concept,
Extended Language Subtag, the extlang. In this system, as envisaged in the
beginning, the first subtag identified the macrolanguage (or the language
itself for the more frequent cases where there was no macrolanguage)
and one or more extlangs followed it. Thus, Tunisian Arabic was ar-aeb
and Sierra de Juarez Zapotec was zap-zaa (zap being the subtag of the
Zapotec macrolanguage).

To understand the concept of this system, it should be seen that the
software which handles language tags, when it does not find a appropriate
language, search in general by removing the subtags from the right, where
the least significant subtags are (this mechanism is described in RFC
4647). Thus, if one requests from a search engine a az-Arab-IR document
(Azeri written in the Arab script as used in Iran), and that no document
corresponds to this tag, the software can check if it has az-Arab (by
giving up Iranian specificities) or even az (Azeri, whatever its other
characteristics). The extlangs stuck well to this model. A request for
"sq-als" (Tosk) would be thus truncated to "sq" (the macrolanguage for
Albanian), which would not be a bad mapping solution.

But with a more attentive examination of extlangs, several problems were
found. Initially, the method of mapping by truncating from the right
always did not give correct results. Nothing guarantees that the languages
encompassed by the same macrolanguage are mutually comprehensible, quite
to the contrary. Therefore, the "blind" mapping obtained by removing the
subtags from the right will not be satisfactory. Then, extlangs complicate
the model since they represent a new case to be specified, to implement
and explain. Lastly, extlangs can carry an erroneous message, that one
particular language of the group is the principal language. This message
can be desirable (majority of the Arabic-speaking people are very attached
to the concept  of a single Arabic language) or not, but it is always
delicate, since it places the languages in a hierarchy. Many discussions,
sometimes extensive, had animated the work group around these problems.

Thus LTRU had as of December 2007 given up using the extlangs and changed
the Internet-Drafts to implement this decision. In this new version,
the Language Subtag Registry kept the information of which languages
were encompassed by a macrolanguage, but the language tags were only
formed with the language itself. Tosk was thus tagged "als", Sierra de
Juarez Zapotec "zaa", and Mandarin "cmn".

But to the IETF the things do not happen always also simply. Five months
after this change, problems with the new version appeared, often raised
by people who had hardly contributed to the concrete labour, and said
nothing at the time of the abandonment of the extlangs. Whenever the group
around a macrolanguage comprises a dominant language (which is the case
of Chinese with the preponderance of Mandarin, or that of Arabic with
standard Arabic, but not the Zapotec case), many documents were already
tagged with the tag which became that of the macrolanguage. For example,
Mandarin resources should no longer be tagged "zh", as formerly, but
"cmn". What to do with the innumerable Mandarin documents which had been
tagged "zh" while following RFC 4646?

Ideally, the Language Subtag Registry would be enough to find good
solutions. But, in fact, the decisions to be taken by software often
depend on nonlinguistic criteria. For example, if a user configured as
his preferred language Breton, it is not unreasonable serve to him French
text. Not that the two languages are similar (the first is a Celtic
language and the second a Romance language) but because, in practice,
almost everyone who understands Breton also understands French. But one
cannot put this information (of significant size and which often changes)
in the registry! It would thus be necessary to be resigned, which does
not seem easy, not to have in the register of information allowing an
"intelligent" mapping.

After, again, a very hot debate, the LTRU group finally went into reverse
on May 26, 2008, returning to the extlangs. That requires returning to
a previous version of the Internet-Drafts, to re-examine documents and
implementations. And with no guarantee that the process does not start
again in a few months...

My personal view is that the system is unstable: one can put together a
good argument for the two solutions (see Mark Davis's document against
extlangs) but nothing is perfect, because human languages were not
conceived to facilitate the task of the IETF. It is been necessary to
adopt a solution and to stick to it, but the IETF decision mechanisms
do not make that easy.

-- =

H=EDggledy-p=ECggledy / XML programmers            John Cowan
Try to escape those / I-eighteen-N woes;        http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Incontrovertibly / What we need more of is      cowan@ccil.org
Unicode weenies and / Fran=E7ois Yergeaus.
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situatation as example
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Peter Constable 2008-05-27 10.08:
 >>Behalf Of  Leif Halvard Silli:

>> However, finally I came to the conclusion, that an extlang 
>> approach is what I would have wanted for Norwegian. And
>> therefore I decided to vote for Extlang so that at least
>> other languages in similar situations could have the benefit
>> of it.



> And yet, not all other macrolanguage cases are similar 
> situations to Norwegian or to Serbo-Croatian.
> 
> So is it perhaps still the case that you might have voted 
> against Q1 and for Q2 without realizing that Q2 did not have 
> the same benefits for as many cases as you thought?


I am thankful for the Co-Chair who adviced against second 
guessing. I feel I've second guessed a lot. Never the less, I'll 
at least provide some thoughts as response, but under a new 
heading, as we were adviced.

Let's look at Sami. Those languages are not grouped under a 
Macrolanguage. But could the Sami language(s) be worth an upgrade 
to "Macrolanguage" situation?

Firstly, the encompassed languages of a Macrolangauge always share 
some lingustic "thing" that makes it possible to group them 
together - I suppose encompassed languages always share that much.

The Macrolanguage "thing", then, is that there is one or several 
Areas of Life where these languages are considered as one.

Hence, I wonder: We in Norway often speak about the Sami languages 
(plural) as just "the Sami language". So, for us, these languages 
are often considered as one thing. I therefore suppose that this 
qualifies for Macrolanguage status.

However, the Sami languages are not mutually intelligible, at 
least not generally. In Norway, though, Northern Sami is pretty 
much the dominating encompassed language. And since Norway is also 
  the place in Scandinavia - and likely also in Russia - were the 
sami population are "best off", in many ways, it perhaps has some 
dominating role also outside Norway. (Sami reindeer groups often 
moved/move accross the borders, anyhow.)

If, for simplicity, we say that samis all have a sami languag as 
primary languages, then as secondary language they might have 
Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Russian. The Samis in the Russian 
Federation will also eventually write their own languages in 
Cyrillic script.

Now, the million dollar question: Macrolanguage? Would it have 
benefitted them? And secondly, would it have benefitted these 
groups to have Extlang? And what about technially solutions - 
would the RFC and syntax rules stand in the way?

Answers:

1. Technical first: Currently, only Northern Sami has a twoletter 
subtag, 'se'. I think that for the Sami language to be "upgraded" 
to Macrolanguage, then the "se" tag would have had to be change 
meaning and become a Macrolanguage tag for all Sami languages. (I 
don't know if, historically, it has had such a broad meaning 
earlier?)

Would it be technical possible to upgrade 'se' to Macrloanguag 
tag?  If not, are there other ways to get an upgrade? (The whole 
Macrolanguage and Extlang thing becomes very accidental if the 
fact that 'se' has been registered long ago can be used against 
it, in this case.)

2. Macrolanguage at all Would it have benefitted the Sami to have 
a Macrolanguag tag? Well, should it not be much simpler for users 
and implementers if we could "catch" any Sami with the "se" tag? 
The Sami have, and try to foster a cross border Sami identity. 
They have a Sami flag used in all the different regions where they 
are present.  We can simply look at Norway: The smalles Sami group 
is very small. I think a Macrolangauge tag that catched also that 
group, would be good - for users and implementors.

3. Extlang: Thanks to John, I now understand language negotiation 
a little bit better ... Extlang would mean that 'se' would be used 
much more, all over. It would mean fewer and more general tags, 
which coudl be made more spesific by adding the extlang tag.

Would this be good? Yes, I think it would be good. I think it 
would be simpler and lead to more general but on the whole more 
correct tagging. (I think Addison made that point once.) I also 
think Sami people would like it. Then they could, via the use of 
the 'se' tag, browse Cyrillic Sami pagese in Russia via the 'se' 
tag for instanse.

If you have an thoughts regarding when it would be bad, then 
please provide them.

So, to answer your question, Peter: Yes, I see a value of 
Macrolanguage and Extlang also when languages are not mutually 
intelligble. And I knew this when I voted. Hence, the question of 
whether I would have voted the same way, does not apply.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
 Extlang. The Sami language situatation as example
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Leif Halvard Silli 2008-05-27 20.24:

> I feel I've second guessed a lot
 

Should be "I feel I've **been** second guessed a lot". ;-)
-- 
leif halvard silli

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> Naturally, there exists a grey area: is Danish so different from
> Norwegian?

While Bokm=E5l and Danish as written languages are quite similar
(for historical reasons), just some minor differences in vocabulary,
spoken Danish and spoken Bokm=E5l are quite different (and indeed
the dialects of Danish are also quite varying, to the extent that
some are nearly incomprehensible even to other Danes). A
macrolanguage "dab" encompassing Danish and Bokm=E5l, anyone...
Or maybe one that covers "Scandinavian"? "Scandinavian" as an
individual language is taught in Iceland, since Icelandic is not
comprehensible by Scandinavians.

I'm not actually proposing to register the abovementioned putative
"macrolanguages" (neither as three- (in 639-3) nor five-letter
(LSR only) code). But a code for "Scandinavian" as an individual
language (used in Iceland & Scandinavia, for Icelanders
communicating with Scandinavians, not among Icelanders) may
be useful. A language ISO 639-3 seems to lack a code for...
 =

	/kent k

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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applications and Backward Compatibility RE: Consensus
	call: extlang
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Those are good additions.

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 2:27 AM, Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
wrote:

> > > we should consider each of the applications of language tags:
> > > identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and
> > be able to
> > > have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits
> >
> > I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully*
> > reasoned judgment, pausing to make sure the arguments
> > presented really do stand up.
>
> I think this is probably a good way forward.  It would be best to start a
> new thread for each application.  I would also add backward compatibility
> and historical usage to the pot.
>
> Best regards
>
> Debbie
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Peter Constable
> > Sent: 27 May 2008 09:54
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> >
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Shawn Steele
> >
> > >> ... that the Accept-Language value meaning 'Mandarin then French'
> > >>would be
> > >> * under RFC 4646: "zh, fr"
> > >> * under this proposal: "zh-cmn, zh, fr, zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0,
> > >>zh-czh;q=0,  zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0, zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0,
> > >>zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0,  zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0".
> > >
> > > Under RFC 4646 "zh, fr" doesn't mean "Mandarin, then
> > French" it means
> > > "Chinese, then french".
> >
> > Mark: Shawn has a valid point here: you present the two from
> > unequal sets of premises without clarifying that difference,
> > thus (unintentionally, I'm sure) giving a subtly deceiving argument.
> >
> > All of the zh-??? tags have be valid for 4646 as they would
> > be for a 4646bis with extlang. Thus, all other things being
> > equal, the Accept-Language value "zh, fr" should have just
> > the same meaning and effect in the latter as for the former,
> > as should the value "zh-cmn, zh, ...".
> >
> > I think that perhaps the contrast you present here is best
> > described not as that between 4646 and a 4646bis
> > *specifically with extlang*, but rather between a situation
> > in which "zh" is predominantly used and a situation in which
> > it is recommended that content be tagged for the specific,
> > encompassed Chinese language rather than being tagged
> > generically as "zh" -- a situation that could obtain under
> > 4646 as well as under 4646bis. And if that situation obtained
> > in a 4646-without-extlang world, then the corresponding
> > Accept-Language value would be "cmn, zh, fr, cjy;q=0, cpx;q=0, ..."
> >
> >
> > While I was the proto-proponent for extlang, I've come to
> > lean toward no-extlang since, to the extent that I've been
> > able to think through scenarios,
> >
> > - it seems to me that the benefits are far more limited than
> > what I initially was supposing, and
> >
> > - because one of the benefits is to slip fallback
> > relationships into a small set of tags whereas in general
> > good fallback needs a lot more -- true for cases related to
> > macrolanguages let alone for the very many more cases not
> > related to any macrolanguages.
> >
> > I'm concerned, though, about such not-quite-careful-enough
> > cases being made for (or against): someone is likely to sense
> > something not quite right and come back, perhaps with an
> > equally slightly-flawed case, in which event we end up not
> > making any progress. So, to your comment,
> >
> > > we should consider each of the applications of language tags:
> > > identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and
> > be able to
> > > have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits
> >
> > I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully*
> > reasoned judgment, pausing to make sure the arguments
> > presented really do stand up.
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>


-- 
Mark

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Those are good additions.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 2:27 AM, Debbie Garside &lt;<a href="mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk">debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
&gt; &gt; we should consider each of the applications of language tags:<br>
&gt; &gt; identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and<br>
&gt; be able to<br>
&gt; &gt; have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully*<br>
&gt; reasoned judgment, pausing to make sure the arguments<br>
&gt; presented really do stand up.<br>
<br>
I think this is probably a good way forward. &nbsp;It would be best to start a<br>
new thread for each application. &nbsp;I would also add backward compatibility<br>
and historical usage to the pot.<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
Debbie<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; Behalf Of Peter Constable<br>
&gt; Sent: 27 May 2008 09:54<br>
&gt; To: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; Behalf Of Shawn Steele<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp;... that the Accept-Language value meaning &#39;Mandarin then French&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;would be<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; * under RFC 4646: &quot;zh, fr&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; * under this proposal: &quot;zh-cmn, zh, fr, zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;zh-czh;q=0, &nbsp;zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0, zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0, &nbsp;zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Under RFC 4646 &quot;zh, fr&quot; doesn&#39;t mean &quot;Mandarin, then<br>
&gt; French&quot; it means<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;Chinese, then french&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Mark: Shawn has a valid point here: you present the two from<br>
&gt; unequal sets of premises without clarifying that difference,<br>
&gt; thus (unintentionally, I&#39;m sure) giving a subtly deceiving argument.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; All of the zh-??? tags have be valid for 4646 as they would<br>
&gt; be for a 4646bis with extlang. Thus, all other things being<br>
&gt; equal, the Accept-Language value &quot;zh, fr&quot; should have just<br>
&gt; the same meaning and effect in the latter as for the former,<br>
&gt; as should the value &quot;zh-cmn, zh, ...&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think that perhaps the contrast you present here is best<br>
&gt; described not as that between 4646 and a 4646bis<br>
&gt; *specifically with extlang*, but rather between a situation<br>
&gt; in which &quot;zh&quot; is predominantly used and a situation in which<br>
&gt; it is recommended that content be tagged for the specific,<br>
&gt; encompassed Chinese language rather than being tagged<br>
&gt; generically as &quot;zh&quot; -- a situation that could obtain under<br>
&gt; 4646 as well as under 4646bis. And if that situation obtained<br>
&gt; in a 4646-without-extlang world, then the corresponding<br>
&gt; Accept-Language value would be &quot;cmn, zh, fr, cjy;q=0, cpx;q=0, ...&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; While I was the proto-proponent for extlang, I&#39;ve come to<br>
&gt; lean toward no-extlang since, to the extent that I&#39;ve been<br>
&gt; able to think through scenarios,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - it seems to me that the benefits are far more limited than<br>
&gt; what I initially was supposing, and<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - because one of the benefits is to slip fallback<br>
&gt; relationships into a small set of tags whereas in general<br>
&gt; good fallback needs a lot more -- true for cases related to<br>
&gt; macrolanguages let alone for the very many more cases not<br>
&gt; related to any macrolanguages.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m concerned, though, about such not-quite-careful-enough<br>
&gt; cases being made for (or against): someone is likely to sense<br>
&gt; something not quite right and come back, perhaps with an<br>
&gt; equally slightly-flawed case, in which event we end up not<br>
&gt; making any progress. So, to your comment,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; we should consider each of the applications of language tags:<br>
&gt; &gt; identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and<br>
&gt; be able to<br>
&gt; &gt; have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully*<br>
&gt; reasoned judgment, pausing to make sure the arguments<br>
&gt; presented really do stand up.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Peter<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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	'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situatation as example
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Leif, The situation of Sami as you describe it is similar to that observed
for a lot of languages, for instance many in Africa. Ultimately we're
talking about amendments to the existing ISO 639 standards, and for that
there needs to be more input from experts on the languages. That input can
come ad hoc as people observe it, or as workshops 

(I'll cc to A12n-collab for the info of people there concerning the
impending decisions regarding language tagging, which has to do with how the
terms in ISO 639 are used, not the content of the ISO 639 standard.)

Don Osborn
Bisharat.net

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:25 PM
> To: Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] Macrolanguage, Extlang. The Sami language situatation
> as example
> 
...
> 
> I am thankful for the Co-Chair who adviced against second
> guessing. I feel I've second guessed a lot. Never the less, I'll
> at least provide some thoughts as response, but under a new
> heading, as we were adviced.
> 
> Let's look at Sami. Those languages are not grouped under a
> Macrolanguage. But could the Sami language(s) be worth an upgrade
> to "Macrolanguage" situation?
> 
> Firstly, the encompassed languages of a Macrolangauge always share
> some lingustic "thing" that makes it possible to group them
> together - I suppose encompassed languages always share that much.
> 
> The Macrolanguage "thing", then, is that there is one or several
> Areas of Life where these languages are considered as one.
> 
> Hence, I wonder: We in Norway often speak about the Sami languages
> (plural) as just "the Sami language". So, for us, these languages
> are often considered as one thing. I therefore suppose that this
> qualifies for Macrolanguage status.
> 
> However, the Sami languages are not mutually intelligible, at
> least not generally. In Norway, though, Northern Sami is pretty
> much the dominating encompassed language. And since Norway is also
>   the place in Scandinavia - and likely also in Russia - were the
> sami population are "best off", in many ways, it perhaps has some
> dominating role also outside Norway. (Sami reindeer groups often
> moved/move accross the borders, anyhow.)
> 
> If, for simplicity, we say that samis all have a sami languag as
> primary languages, then as secondary language they might have
> Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Russian. The Samis in the Russian
> Federation will also eventually write their own languages in
> Cyrillic script.
> 
> Now, the million dollar question: Macrolanguage? Would it have
> benefitted them? And secondly, would it have benefitted these
> groups to have Extlang? And what about technially solutions -
> would the RFC and syntax rules stand in the way?
> 
> Answers:
> 
> 1. Technical first: Currently, only Northern Sami has a twoletter
> subtag, 'se'. I think that for the Sami language to be "upgraded"
> to Macrolanguage, then the "se" tag would have had to be change
> meaning and become a Macrolanguage tag for all Sami languages. (I
> don't know if, historically, it has had such a broad meaning
> earlier?)
> 
> Would it be technical possible to upgrade 'se' to Macrloanguag
> tag?  If not, are there other ways to get an upgrade? (The whole
> Macrolanguage and Extlang thing becomes very accidental if the
> fact that 'se' has been registered long ago can be used against
> it, in this case.)
> 
> 2. Macrolanguage at all Would it have benefitted the Sami to have
> a Macrolanguag tag? Well, should it not be much simpler for users
> and implementers if we could "catch" any Sami with the "se" tag?
> The Sami have, and try to foster a cross border Sami identity.
> They have a Sami flag used in all the different regions where they
> are present.  We can simply look at Norway: The smalles Sami group
> is very small. I think a Macrolangauge tag that catched also that
> group, would be good - for users and implementors.
> 
> 3. Extlang: Thanks to John, I now understand language negotiation
> a little bit better ... Extlang would mean that 'se' would be used
> much more, all over. It would mean fewer and more general tags,
> which coudl be made more spesific by adding the extlang tag.
> 
> Would this be good? Yes, I think it would be good. I think it
> would be simpler and lead to more general but on the whole more
> correct tagging. (I think Addison made that point once.) I also
> think Sami people would like it. Then they could, via the use of
> the 'se' tag, browse Cyrillic Sami pagese in Russia via the 'se'
> tag for instanse.
> 
> If you have an thoughts regarding when it would be bad, then
> please provide them.
> 
> So, to answer your question, Peter: Yes, I see a value of
> Macrolanguage and Extlang also when languages are not mutually
> intelligble. And I knew this when I voted. Hence, the question of
> whether I would have voted the same way, does not apply.
> --
> leif halvard silli
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:38:30 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 27 12:04:21 2008
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> To: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
...
> (Magically, "German" means only
> "Standard German", and "French" means "Standard French", and so on, but
> "Arabic" doesn't mean "Standard Arabic",...)

I'm very surprised by this claim.  I thought 'de' encompassed any variety
of German that wasn't covered by some other tag (like gsw), just as 'fr'
encompasses many flavors of French.  It would be only slightly more
extreme to claim that 'en' means American English, simply because that
variety makes up a significant percentage of the content tagged 'en'.

Regardless of whether we use extlangs, it's becoming clearer
and clearer to me that we should be careful to advise
*against* practices like using naked 'zh' for content known to be Mandarin,
or naked 'ar' for content known to be standard Arabic, even when there's
substantial legacy data.  To do otherwise would lead to a practical narrowing
of the subtags' meanings, and to dangerous analogies like "de is limited to
standard German." That would be a very bad thing.

Randy

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To: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang for users
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Kent Karlsson scripsit:

> Or maybe one that covers "Scandinavian"? "Scandinavian" as an
> individual language is taught in Iceland, since Icelandic is not
> comprehensible by Scandinavians.

Amazing.  Which of the four words for "girl" do they learn?
And do they speak with st/od, tones, or neither?

-- 
John Cowan    http://ccil.org/~cowan  cowan@ccil.org
The Penguin shall hunt and devour all that is crufty, gnarly and
bogacious; all code which wriggles like spaghetti, or is infested with
blighting creatures, or is bound by grave and perilous Licences shall it
capture.  And in capturing shall it replicate, and in replicating shall
it document, and in documentation shall it bring freedom, serenity and
most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein.  --Gospel of Tux
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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Leif Halvard Silli'" <lhs@malform.no>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situatation as example
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We are not here to classify languages.  We do not have that level of
knowledge in this working group.  It is totally out of scope.

We are here to facilitate the availability of the ISO 639-3 code within the
LSR via the design of an RFC - RFC4646bis.

Best regards

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli
> Sent: 27 May 2008 19:25
> To: Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,Extlang. The Sami language
> situatation as example
>
> Peter Constable 2008-05-27 10.08:
>  >>Behalf Of  Leif Halvard Silli:
>
> >> However, finally I came to the conclusion, that an extlang
> approach
> >> is what I would have wanted for Norwegian. And therefore I
> decided to
> >> vote for Extlang so that at least other languages in similar
> >> situations could have the benefit of it.
>
>
>
> > And yet, not all other macrolanguage cases are similar
> > situations to Norwegian or to Serbo-Croatian.
> >
> > So is it perhaps still the case that you might have voted
> > against Q1 and for Q2 without realizing that Q2 did not have
> > the same benefits for as many cases as you thought?
>
>
> I am thankful for the Co-Chair who adviced against second
> guessing. I feel I've second guessed a lot. Never the less, I'll
> at least provide some thoughts as response, but under a new
> heading, as we were adviced.
>
> Let's look at Sami. Those languages are not grouped under a
> Macrolanguage. But could the Sami language(s) be worth an upgrade
> to "Macrolanguage" situation?
>
> Firstly, the encompassed languages of a Macrolangauge always share
> some lingustic "thing" that makes it possible to group them
> together - I suppose encompassed languages always share that much.
>
> The Macrolanguage "thing", then, is that there is one or several
> Areas of Life where these languages are considered as one.
>
> Hence, I wonder: We in Norway often speak about the Sami languages
> (plural) as just "the Sami language". So, for us, these languages
> are often considered as one thing. I therefore suppose that this
> qualifies for Macrolanguage status.
>
> However, the Sami languages are not mutually intelligible, at
> least not generally. In Norway, though, Northern Sami is pretty
> much the dominating encompassed language. And since Norway is also
>   the place in Scandinavia - and likely also in Russia - were the
> sami population are "best off", in many ways, it perhaps has some
> dominating role also outside Norway. (Sami reindeer groups often
> moved/move accross the borders, anyhow.)
>
> If, for simplicity, we say that samis all have a sami languag as
> primary languages, then as secondary language they might have
> Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Russian. The Samis in the Russian
> Federation will also eventually write their own languages in
> Cyrillic script.
>
> Now, the million dollar question: Macrolanguage? Would it have
> benefitted them? And secondly, would it have benefitted these
> groups to have Extlang? And what about technially solutions -
> would the RFC and syntax rules stand in the way?
>
> Answers:
>
> 1. Technical first: Currently, only Northern Sami has a twoletter
> subtag, 'se'. I think that for the Sami language to be "upgraded"
> to Macrolanguage, then the "se" tag would have had to be change
> meaning and become a Macrolanguage tag for all Sami languages. (I
> don't know if, historically, it has had such a broad meaning
> earlier?)
>
> Would it be technical possible to upgrade 'se' to Macrloanguag
> tag?  If not, are there other ways to get an upgrade? (The whole
> Macrolanguage and Extlang thing becomes very accidental if the
> fact that 'se' has been registered long ago can be used against
> it, in this case.)
>
> 2. Macrolanguage at all Would it have benefitted the Sami to have
> a Macrolanguag tag? Well, should it not be much simpler for users
> and implementers if we could "catch" any Sami with the "se" tag?
> The Sami have, and try to foster a cross border Sami identity.
> They have a Sami flag used in all the different regions where they
> are present.  We can simply look at Norway: The smalles Sami group
> is very small. I think a Macrolangauge tag that catched also that
> group, would be good - for users and implementors.
>
> 3. Extlang: Thanks to John, I now understand language negotiation
> a little bit better ... Extlang would mean that 'se' would be used
> much more, all over. It would mean fewer and more general tags,
> which coudl be made more spesific by adding the extlang tag.
>
> Would this be good? Yes, I think it would be good. I think it
> would be simpler and lead to more general but on the whole more
> correct tagging. (I think Addison made that point once.) I also
> think Sami people would like it. Then they could, via the use of
> the 'se' tag, browse Cyrillic Sami pagese in Russia via the 'se'
> tag for instanse.
>
> If you have an thoughts regarding when it would be bad, then
> please provide them.
>
> So, to answer your question, Peter: Yes, I see a value of
> Macrolanguage and Extlang also when languages are not mutually
> intelligble. And I knew this when I voted. Hence, the question of
> whether I would have voted the same way, does not apply.
> --
> leif halvard silli
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Randy Presuhn'" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>,
	"'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Randy wrote:

> Regardless of whether we use extlangs, it's becoming clearer
> and clearer to me that we should be careful to advise
> *against* practices like using naked 'zh' for content known
> to be Mandarin, or naked 'ar' for content known to be
> standard Arabic, even when there's substantial legacy data.
> To do otherwise would lead to a practical narrowing of the
> subtags' meanings, and to dangerous analogies like "de is
> limited to standard German." That would be a very bad thing.

Quite so!

Debbie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: 27 May 2008 20:03
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
>
> Hi -
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
> > To: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working
> > Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> ...
> > (Magically, "German" means only
> > "Standard German", and "French" means "Standard French", and so on,
> > but "Arabic" doesn't mean "Standard Arabic",...)
>
> I'm very surprised by this claim.  I thought 'de' encompassed
> any variety of German that wasn't covered by some other tag
> (like gsw), just as 'fr'
> encompasses many flavors of French.  It would be only
> slightly more extreme to claim that 'en' means American
> English, simply because that variety makes up a significant
> percentage of the content tagged 'en'.
>
> Regardless of whether we use extlangs, it's becoming clearer
> and clearer to me that we should be careful to advise
> *against* practices like using naked 'zh' for content known
> to be Mandarin, or naked 'ar' for content known to be
> standard Arabic, even when there's substantial legacy data.
> To do otherwise would lead to a practical narrowing of the
> subtags' meanings, and to dangerous analogies like "de is
> limited to standard German." That would be a very bad thing.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> I'm very surprised by this claim.  I thought 'de' encompassed any
> variety of German that wasn't covered by some other tag (like gsw),

It does encompass national varieties as well as different orthographic
reforms of Standard German.  But it does not cover the various other
West Germanic languages (Mundarten), High or Low, spoken in Germany.

How do we know this?  The ISO 639-2/639-3 equivalent of 'de' is 'deu',
and when we look at http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=deu
(which defines 'deu'), we are pointed to encyclopedic information at
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu , which makes it
clear that the denotation of 'de' is Standard German, the language
spoken by almost a million people in Kazakhstan.

> just as 'fr' encompasses many flavors of French.

For whatever reasons, Ethnologue (and therefore ISO 639-3) does not
distinguish the various langues d'oil except for Picard and Walloon,
so all the rest are indeed lumped under 'fr'.

-- 
A rose by any other name                            John Cowan
may smell as sweet,                                 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
but if you called it an onion                       cowan@ccil.org
you'd get cooks very confused.          --RMS
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On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 10:04:11AM -0400,
 John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote 
 a message of 141 lines which said:

> NOTE error in the original: for "zaa-zap" read "zap-zaa"; "zap" is the
> macrolanguage tag.

Fixed, thanks.
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 27 13:04:31 2008
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From: "Don Osborn" <dzo@bisharat.net>
To: <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>,
	"'Leif Halvard Silli'" <lhs@malform.no>
References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>	<008a01c8bedc$72b97b20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>	<30b660a20805252132g28ff50b0kd5b04d6f47ca35d2@mail.gmail.com>	<002001c8bef3$e0497520$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>	<30b660a20805262003j21fff6c4tf20d59be11f28633@mail.gmail.com>	<483BA015.3090004@malform.no><DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579562E2A410C5@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>	<483C51EE.6070100@malform.no>
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Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:04:03 -0400
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Cc: 'A12n tech support' <a12n-collaboration@bisharat.net>,
	'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situatation as example
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Hi Debbie, You are correct on this point. I do however think however that
work such as that on RFC4646bis and other efforts such as writing of locale
data (a subproject of the new PanAfrican Localisation Network project will
coordinate efforts for up to 100 locales for African languages soon) can
provide very useful information back to the standard. Basically in using or
applying the codes in ISO 639 to various practical applications, we get a
better idea of gaps, unmet needs, and even problems with the existing set of
codes. 

Of course this is not a discussion to pursue on the LTRU list, but I hope
there is no problem to have such issues mentioned.

Don 

PS- For the cc to A12n-collab, more info on RFC 4646 is available at
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4646 , and on RFC's generally at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Debbie Garside
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:10 PM
> To: 'Leif Halvard Silli'
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage, Extlang. The Sami language
> situatation as example
> 
> We are not here to classify languages.  We do not have that level of
> knowledge in this working group.  It is totally out of scope.
> 
> We are here to facilitate the availability of the ISO 639-3 code within
> the
> LSR via the design of an RFC - RFC4646bis.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Debbie
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli
> > Sent: 27 May 2008 19:25
> > To: Peter Constable
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,Extlang. The Sami language
> > situatation as example
> >
> > Peter Constable 2008-05-27 10.08:
> >  >>Behalf Of  Leif Halvard Silli:
...


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To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang for users
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Stephane Bortzmeyer scripsit:
> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 10:04:11AM -0400,
>  John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote 
>  a message of 141 lines which said:
> 
> > NOTE error in the original: for "zaa-zap" read "zap-zaa"; "zap" is the
> > macrolanguage tag.
> 
> Fixed, thanks.

Great.  Are there any obvious errors in the English version?
I have only a de minimis grasp of French.

-- 
As you read this, I don't want you to feel      John Cowan
sorry for me, because, I believe everyone       cowan@ccil.org
will die someday.                               http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
        --From a Nigerian-type scam spam
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
...
> > I'm very surprised by this claim.  I thought 'de' encompassed any
> > variety of German that wasn't covered by some other tag (like gsw),
> 
> It does encompass national varieties as well as different orthographic
> reforms of Standard German.  But it does not cover the various other
> West Germanic languages (Mundarten), High or Low, spoken in Germany.
> 
> How do we know this?  The ISO 639-2/639-3 equivalent of 'de' is 'deu',
> and when we look at http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=deu
> (which defines 'deu'), we are pointed to encyclopedic information at
> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu , which makes it
> clear that the denotation of 'de' is Standard German, the language
> spoken by almost a million people in Kazakhstan.
...

Perhaps this would be a question for ietf-languages@iana.org, but I'll ask
it here:  how then would one tag the "Stadtsprache" (city dialect) of Mannheim?
While clearly not "standard German", it seems quite a stretch to lump it
with the Pfaelzisch one might run into among the elderly in the countryside.

Randy

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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Don Osborn'" <dzo@bisharat.net>, "'Leif Halvard Silli'" <lhs@malform.no>
References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>	<008a01c8bedc$72b97b20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>	<30b660a20805252132g28ff50b0kd5b04d6f47ca35d2@mail.gmail.com>	<002001c8bef3$e0497520$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>	<30b660a20805262003j21fff6c4tf20d59be11f28633@mail.gmail.com>	<483BA015.3090004@malform.no><DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579562E2A410C5@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>	<483C51EE.6070100@malform.no>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situatation as example
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Hi Don

IMHO, possible use cases of the RFC, needs, unmet needs and gaps are
relevant to this WG and the development of the standard.  Where we need to
draw the line is when the discussion comes into the realm of re-designing
ISO 639 or making language classification decisions.  This is absolutely
beyond the scope of this WG and should be directed to ISO TC37/SC2/WG1 or
the ISO 639 JAC.  As this RFC is way over the timescale originally envisaged
for completion it is in everyone's interest to try to resolve the issues
that are within scope rather than focussing on issues that cannot be
resolved other than by external parties.  But this is just my humble opinion
in the light of trying to get the important issues, such as extlang/no
extlang resolved, the ultimate call is with the co-chairs.

Best wishes

Debbie





> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Osborn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net]
> Sent: 27 May 2008 21:04
> To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Leif Halvard Silli'
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'A12n tech support'
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Macrolanguage, Extlang. The Sami language
> situatation as example
>
> Hi Debbie, You are correct on this point. I do however think
> however that work such as that on RFC4646bis and other
> efforts such as writing of locale data (a subproject of the
> new PanAfrican Localisation Network project will coordinate
> efforts for up to 100 locales for African languages soon) can
> provide very useful information back to the standard.
> Basically in using or applying the codes in ISO 639 to
> various practical applications, we get a better idea of gaps,
> unmet needs, and even problems with the existing set of codes.
>
> Of course this is not a discussion to pursue on the LTRU
> list, but I hope there is no problem to have such issues mentioned.
>
> Don
>
> PS- For the cc to A12n-collab, more info on RFC 4646 is available at
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4646 , and on RFC's generally
> at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf
> > Of Debbie Garside
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:10 PM
> > To: 'Leif Halvard Silli'
> > Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage, Extlang. The Sami language
> > situatation as example
> >
> > We are not here to classify languages.  We do not have that
> level of
> > knowledge in this working group.  It is totally out of scope.
> >
> > We are here to facilitate the availability of the ISO 639-3 code
> > within the LSR via the design of an RFC - RFC4646bis.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Debbie
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > > Of Leif Halvard Silli
> > > Sent: 27 May 2008 19:25
> > > To: Peter Constable
> > > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > > Subject: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,Extlang. The Sami language
> situatation
> > > as example
> > >
> > > Peter Constable 2008-05-27 10.08:
> > >  >>Behalf Of  Leif Halvard Silli:
> ...
>
>
>
>
>




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Hoi,
There are clear differences between Ethnologue and the ISO-639-3. There are
languages in Ethnologue that do not exist in the ISO-639--3 and the other
way round. It is not safe to consider Ethnologue to have the authority that
the standard has.
Thanks,
      Gerard

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 9:26 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Randy Presuhn scripsit:
>
> > I'm very surprised by this claim.  I thought 'de' encompassed any
> > variety of German that wasn't covered by some other tag (like gsw),
>
> It does encompass national varieties as well as different orthographic
> reforms of Standard German.  But it does not cover the various other
> West Germanic languages (Mundarten), High or Low, spoken in Germany.
>
> How do we know this?  The ISO 639-2/639-3 equivalent of 'de' is 'deu',
> and when we look at http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=deu
> (which defines 'deu'), we are pointed to encyclopedic information at
> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu , which makes it
> clear that the denotation of 'de' is Standard German, the language
> spoken by almost a million people in Kazakhstan.
>
> > just as 'fr' encompasses many flavors of French.
>
> For whatever reasons, Ethnologue (and therefore ISO 639-3) does not
> distinguish the various langues d'oil except for Picard and Walloon,
> so all the rest are indeed lumped under 'fr'.
>
> --
> A rose by any other name                            John Cowan
> may smell as sweet,
> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan <http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan>
> but if you called it an onion                       cowan@ccil.org
> you'd get cooks very confused.          --RMS
> _______________________________________________
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Hoi,<br>There are clear differences between Ethnologue and the ISO-639-3. There are languages in Ethnologue that do not exist in the ISO-639--3 and the other way round. It is not safe to consider Ethnologue to have the authority that the standard has.<br>
Thanks,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Gerard<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 9:26 PM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Randy Presuhn scripsit:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; I&#39;m very surprised by this claim. &nbsp;I thought &#39;de&#39; encompassed any<br>
&gt; variety of German that wasn&#39;t covered by some other tag (like gsw),<br>
<br>
</div>It does encompass national varieties as well as different orthographic<br>
reforms of Standard German. &nbsp;But it does not cover the various other<br>
West Germanic languages (Mundarten), High or Low, spoken in Germany.<br>
<br>
How do we know this? &nbsp;The ISO 639-2/639-3 equivalent of &#39;de&#39; is &#39;deu&#39;,<br>
and when we look at <a href="http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=deu" target="_blank">http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=deu</a><br>
(which defines &#39;deu&#39;), we are pointed to encyclopedic information at<br>
<a href="http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu" target="_blank">http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu</a> , which makes it<br>
clear that the denotation of &#39;de&#39; is Standard German, the language<br>
spoken by almost a million people in Kazakhstan.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; just as &#39;fr&#39; encompasses many flavors of French.<br>
<br>
</div>For whatever reasons, Ethnologue (and therefore ISO 639-3) does not<br>
distinguish the various langues d&#39;oil except for Picard and Walloon,<br>
so all the rest are indeed lumped under &#39;fr&#39;.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
A rose by any other name &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;John Cowan<br>
may smell as sweet, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan" target="_blank">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><br>
but if you called it an onion &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a><br>
you&#39;d get cooks very confused. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;--RMS<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
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<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Gerard Meijssen scripsit:

> There are clear differences between Ethnologue and the ISO-639-3. There are
> languages in Ethnologue that do not exist in the ISO-639--3 and the other
> way round. 

Only in very minor ways.

1) Ethnologue doesn't handle ancient or artificial languages -- the
sub-registrar for them is Linguist List.

2) Macrolanguages aren't in Ethnologue either.

3) There may be some version skew where 639-3 has been updated but
Ethnologue has not.

-- 
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan
In computer science, we stand on each other's feet.
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> Perhaps this would be a question for ietf-languages@iana.org, but I'll ask
> it here:  how then would one tag the "Stadtsprache" (city dialect) of Mannheim?
> While clearly not "standard German", it seems quite a stretch to lump it
> with the Pfaelzisch one might run into among the elderly in the countryside.

Well, you have your choice between de-mannheim or pfl-mannheim.  Perhaps
both are worth registering.  I certainly don't claim to know.

-- 
Andrew Watt on Microsoft:                       John Cowan
Never in the field of human computing           cowan@ccil.org
has so much been paid by so many                http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
to so few! (pace Winston Churchill)
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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ISO 639-1 and ICU 639-2 *didn't* do this in the RFC 4646 time frame, and so
RFC 4646 doesn't either.

ISO 639-3 chose to interpret 'de'/'deu' as "Standard German", and 'ar'/'arb'
as "Any Arabic", but someone reading 639-1/2 and applying RFC 4646 *in good
faith and with the information available in the standard* would have no idea
that there was any fundamental difference in the way that they were going to
be defined in 639-3.

ISO 639-3 does have much more concrete definitions (all to the good), but
someone implementing ISO 639-1/2 or RFC 4646 or any of its predecessors
would have no idea that German would get defined with one model, and Arabic
get defined with a completely different model. It was reasonable for someone
implementing RFCs 1766, 3066, and 4646 to interpret "de" as Standard German
(Hochdeutsch) and "zh" as Standard Chinese (Mandarin). It would *also* have
been reasonable for someone to interpret 'de' as Any German (and up until
2006-03-08, encompassing Swiss German), and 'zh' as Any Chinese (thus
encompassing Cantonese).

The standard was underspecified.

I am not arguing against the way ISO 639-3 has done things; that is water
under the bridge -- but we need to recognize that because of the imprecision
of the previous ISO 639 standards, we can't make reasonable interpretations
of RFCs 1766, 3066, and 4646, widely followed in industry, be
non-conformant.

Mark

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 12:26 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Randy Presuhn scripsit:
>
> > I'm very surprised by this claim.  I thought 'de' encompassed any
> > variety of German that wasn't covered by some other tag (like gsw),
>
> It does encompass national varieties as well as different orthographic
> reforms of Standard German.  But it does not cover the various other
> West Germanic languages (Mundarten), High or Low, spoken in Germany.
>
> How do we know this?  The ISO 639-2/639-3 equivalent of 'de' is 'deu',
> and when we look at http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=deu
> (which defines 'deu'), we are pointed to encyclopedic information at
> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu , which makes it
> clear that the denotation of 'de' is Standard German, the language
> spoken by almost a million people in Kazakhstan.
>
> > just as 'fr' encompasses many flavors of French.
>
> For whatever reasons, Ethnologue (and therefore ISO 639-3) does not
> distinguish the various langues d'oil except for Picard and Walloon,
> so all the rest are indeed lumped under 'fr'.
>
> --
> A rose by any other name                            John Cowan
> may smell as sweet,
> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan <http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan>
> but if you called it an onion                       cowan@ccil.org
> you'd get cooks very confused.          --RMS
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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ISO 639-1 and ICU 639-2 *didn&#39;t* do this in the RFC 4646 time frame, and so RFC 4646 doesn&#39;t either.<br><br>ISO 639-3 chose to interpret &#39;de&#39;/&#39;deu&#39; as &quot;Standard German&quot;, and &#39;ar&#39;/&#39;arb&#39; as &quot;Any Arabic&quot;, but someone reading 639-1/2 and applying RFC 4646 <b>in good faith and with the information available in the standard</b> would have no idea that there was any fundamental difference in the way that they were going to be defined in 639-3.<br>
<br>
ISO 639-3 does have much more concrete definitions (all to the good), but someone implementing ISO 639-1/2 or RFC 4646 or any of its predecessors would have no idea that German would get defined with one model, and Arabic get defined with a completely different model. It was reasonable for someone implementing RFCs 1766, 3066, and 4646 to interpret &quot;de&quot; as Standard German (Hochdeutsch) and &quot;zh&quot; as Standard Chinese (Mandarin). It would <i>also</i> have been reasonable for someone to interpret &#39;de&#39; as Any German (and up until 2006-03-08, encompassing Swiss German), and &#39;zh&#39; as Any Chinese (thus encompassing Cantonese).<br>
<br>The standard was underspecified.<br><br>I am not arguing against the way ISO 639-3 has done things; that is water under the bridge -- but we need to recognize that because of the imprecision of the previous ISO 639 standards, we can&#39;t make reasonable interpretations of RFCs 1766, 3066, and 4646, widely followed in industry, be non-conformant.<br>
<br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 12:26 PM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org" target="_blank">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

Randy Presuhn scripsit:<br>
<div><br>
&gt; I&#39;m very surprised by this claim. &nbsp;I thought &#39;de&#39; encompassed any<br>
&gt; variety of German that wasn&#39;t covered by some other tag (like gsw),<br>
<br>
</div>It does encompass national varieties as well as different orthographic<br>
reforms of Standard German. &nbsp;But it does not cover the various other<br>
West Germanic languages (Mundarten), High or Low, spoken in Germany.<br>
<br>
How do we know this? &nbsp;The ISO 639-2/639-3 equivalent of &#39;de&#39; is &#39;deu&#39;,<br>
and when we look at <a href="http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=deu" target="_blank">http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=deu</a><br>
(which defines &#39;deu&#39;), we are pointed to encyclopedic information at<br>
<a href="http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu" target="_blank">http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu</a> , which makes it<br>
clear that the denotation of &#39;de&#39; is Standard German, the language<br>
spoken by almost a million people in Kazakhstan.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; just as &#39;fr&#39; encompasses many flavors of French.<br>
<br>
</div>For whatever reasons, Ethnologue (and therefore ISO 639-3) does not<br>
distinguish the various langues d&#39;oil except for Picard and Walloon,<br>
so all the rest are indeed lumped under &#39;fr&#39;.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
A rose by any other name &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;John Cowan<br>
may smell as sweet, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan" target="_blank">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><br>
but if you called it an onion &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org" target="_blank">cowan@ccil.org</a><br>
you&#39;d get cooks very confused. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;--RMS<br>
</font><div><div></div><div>_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark

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For the record, John, with all the changes that have gone into ISO 639-3 since it was published, I think the skew (#3) may be more than you think. There are also issues where Ethnologue is not clear, such as the Erzgebirgische ambiguity we stumbled on by accident.

Regards,

Karen

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>Of John Cowan
>Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:16 PM
>To: Gerard Meijssen
>Cc: LTRU Working Group
>Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
>
>Gerard Meijssen scripsit:
>
>> There are clear differences between Ethnologue and the ISO-639-3.
>There are
>> languages in Ethnologue that do not exist in the ISO-639--3 and
>the other
>> way round.
>
>Only in very minor ways.
>
>1) Ethnologue doesn't handle ancient or artificial languages -- the
>sub-registrar for them is Linguist List.
>
>2) Macrolanguages aren't in Ethnologue either.
>
>3) There may be some version skew where 639-3 has been updated but
>Ethnologue has not.
>
>--
>John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan
>In computer science, we stand on each other's feet.
>        --Brian K. Reid
>_______________________________________________
>Ltru mailing list
>Ltru@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Broome, Karen'" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>,
	"'John Cowan'" <cowan@ccil.org>,
	"'Gerard Meijssen'" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
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Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Re: Version Skew. As I mentioned more than a month ago on this list, the
Ethnologue online database does not keep pace with ISO 639-3 but (according
to SIL) will be updated prior to publication of the 16th Edition.

Please remember that Ethnologue is not normative in any way.  If you want
information about ISO 639-3 go to the ISO 639-3 site. From there you can
access the linked informative data from Ethnologue whilst at the same time
being assured that the code you are viewing is up to date.

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Broome, Karen
> Sent: 27 May 2008 23:30
> To: John Cowan; Gerard Meijssen
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
>
> For the record, John, with all the changes that have gone
> into ISO 639-3 since it was published, I think the skew (#3)
> may be more than you think. There are also issues where
> Ethnologue is not clear, such as the Erzgebirgische ambiguity
> we stumbled on by accident.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf Of
> >John Cowan
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:16 PM
> >To: Gerard Meijssen
> >Cc: LTRU Working Group
> >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
> >
> >Gerard Meijssen scripsit:
> >
> >> There are clear differences between Ethnologue and the ISO-639-3.
> >There are
> >> languages in Ethnologue that do not exist in the ISO-639--3 and
> >the other
> >> way round.
> >
> >Only in very minor ways.
> >
> >1) Ethnologue doesn't handle ancient or artificial languages -- the
> >sub-registrar for them is Linguist List.
> >
> >2) Macrolanguages aren't in Ethnologue either.
> >
> >3) There may be some version skew where 639-3 has been updated but
> >Ethnologue has not.
> >
> >--
> >John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan In
> computer science,
> >we stand on each other's feet.
> >        --Brian K. Reid
> >_______________________________________________
> >Ltru mailing list
> >Ltru@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




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To: "'John Cowan'" <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: [Ltru] Scandinavian (RE:  extlang for users)
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I haven't studied Scandinavian (the individual Icelandic language)
myself. All I know is that it is some kind of compromise/mix. The
few times I've heard it, it sounds like such a mix with a heavy
Icelandic accent. Sorry, I don't have further details.

	/kent k 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of John Cowan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:03 PM
> To: Kent Karlsson
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang for users
> 
> Kent Karlsson scripsit:
> 
> > Or maybe one that covers "Scandinavian"? "Scandinavian" as an
> > individual language is taught in Iceland, since Icelandic is not
> > comprehensible by Scandinavians.
> 
> Amazing.  Which of the four words for "girl" do they learn?
> And do they speak with st/od, tones, or neither?
> 
> -- 
> John Cowan    http://ccil.org/~cowan  cowan@ccil.org
> The Penguin shall hunt and devour all that is crufty, gnarly and
> bogacious; all code which wriggles like spaghetti, or is infested with
> blighting creatures, or is bound by grave and perilous 
> Licences shall it
> capture.  And in capturing shall it replicate, and in 
> replicating shall
> it document, and in documentation shall it bring freedom, serenity and
> most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein.  
> --Gospel of Tux
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 

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	88b267ec7ae0378e45e0c412d86bafc2
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situatation as example
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Sami already has a code that covers any Sami language, 'smi'.

It is a collection code, and already in LSR. Ignore the
"(Other)" part of the Description, it's going away.

Collection codes, are (IIUC) in general not candidates for 
being reclassified as macrolanguages, given how the concept
of macrolanguage got started.

Indeed, as I mentioned, I think it would be better to
just regard "macrolanguage" codes as any other collection
code. Available, but not recommended for use in language
tagging of individual documents.

	/kent k 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:25 PM
> To: Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,Extlang. The Sami language 
> situatation as example
> 
> Peter Constable 2008-05-27 10.08:
>  >>Behalf Of  Leif Halvard Silli:
> 
> >> However, finally I came to the conclusion, that an extlang 
> >> approach is what I would have wanted for Norwegian. And
> >> therefore I decided to vote for Extlang so that at least
> >> other languages in similar situations could have the benefit
> >> of it.
> 
> 
> 
> > And yet, not all other macrolanguage cases are similar 
> > situations to Norwegian or to Serbo-Croatian.
> > 
> > So is it perhaps still the case that you might have voted 
> > against Q1 and for Q2 without realizing that Q2 did not have 
> > the same benefits for as many cases as you thought?
> 
> 
> I am thankful for the Co-Chair who adviced against second 
> guessing. I feel I've second guessed a lot. Never the less, I'll 
> at least provide some thoughts as response, but under a new 
> heading, as we were adviced.
> 
> Let's look at Sami. Those languages are not grouped under a 
> Macrolanguage. But could the Sami language(s) be worth an upgrade 
> to "Macrolanguage" situation?
> 
> Firstly, the encompassed languages of a Macrolangauge always share 
> some lingustic "thing" that makes it possible to group them 
> together - I suppose encompassed languages always share that much.
> 
> The Macrolanguage "thing", then, is that there is one or several 
> Areas of Life where these languages are considered as one.
> 
> Hence, I wonder: We in Norway often speak about the Sami languages 
> (plural) as just "the Sami language". So, for us, these languages 
> are often considered as one thing. I therefore suppose that this 
> qualifies for Macrolanguage status.
> 
> However, the Sami languages are not mutually intelligible, at 
> least not generally. In Norway, though, Northern Sami is pretty 
> much the dominating encompassed language. And since Norway is also 
>   the place in Scandinavia - and likely also in Russia - were the 
> sami population are "best off", in many ways, it perhaps has some 
> dominating role also outside Norway. (Sami reindeer groups often 
> moved/move accross the borders, anyhow.)
> 
> If, for simplicity, we say that samis all have a sami languag as 
> primary languages, then as secondary language they might have 
> Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Russian. The Samis in the Russian 
> Federation will also eventually write their own languages in 
> Cyrillic script.
> 
> Now, the million dollar question: Macrolanguage? Would it have 
> benefitted them? And secondly, would it have benefitted these 
> groups to have Extlang? And what about technially solutions - 
> would the RFC and syntax rules stand in the way?
> 
> Answers:
> 
> 1. Technical first: Currently, only Northern Sami has a twoletter 
> subtag, 'se'. I think that for the Sami language to be "upgraded" 
> to Macrolanguage, then the "se" tag would have had to be change 
> meaning and become a Macrolanguage tag for all Sami languages. (I 
> don't know if, historically, it has had such a broad meaning 
> earlier?)
> 
> Would it be technical possible to upgrade 'se' to Macrloanguag 
> tag?  If not, are there other ways to get an upgrade? (The whole 
> Macrolanguage and Extlang thing becomes very accidental if the 
> fact that 'se' has been registered long ago can be used against 
> it, in this case.)
> 
> 2. Macrolanguage at all Would it have benefitted the Sami to have 
> a Macrolanguag tag? Well, should it not be much simpler for users 
> and implementers if we could "catch" any Sami with the "se" tag? 
> The Sami have, and try to foster a cross border Sami identity. 
> They have a Sami flag used in all the different regions where they 
> are present.  We can simply look at Norway: The smalles Sami group 
> is very small. I think a Macrolangauge tag that catched also that 
> group, would be good - for users and implementors.
> 
> 3. Extlang: Thanks to John, I now understand language negotiation 
> a little bit better ... Extlang would mean that 'se' would be used 
> much more, all over. It would mean fewer and more general tags, 
> which coudl be made more spesific by adding the extlang tag.
> 
> Would this be good? Yes, I think it would be good. I think it 
> would be simpler and lead to more general but on the whole more 
> correct tagging. (I think Addison made that point once.) I also 
> think Sami people would like it. Then they could, via the use of 
> the 'se' tag, browse Cyrillic Sami pagese in Russia via the 'se' 
> tag for instanse.
> 
> If you have an thoughts regarding when it would be bad, then 
> please provide them.
> 
> So, to answer your question, Peter: Yes, I see a value of 
> Macrolanguage and Extlang also when languages are not mutually 
> intelligble. And I knew this when I voted. Hence, the question of 
> whether I would have voted the same way, does not apply.
> -- 
> leif halvard silli
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> 

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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
 Extlang. The Sami language situatation as example
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Debbie Garside 2008-05-27 22.36:

> Hi Don
> 
> IMHO, possible use cases of the RFC, needs, unmet needs and gaps are
> relevant to this WG and the development of the standard.  Where we need to
> draw the line is when the discussion comes into the realm of re-designing
> ISO 639 or making language classification decisions. [...]

This was mostly a reply to Peter. On the whole I agree with you.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
>
> Randy Presuhn scripsit:
> 
> > Perhaps this would be a question for ietf-languages@iana.org, but I'll ask
> > it here:  how then would one tag the "Stadtsprache" (city dialect) of Mannheim?
> > While clearly not "standard German", it seems quite a stretch to lump it
> > with the Pfaelzisch one might run into among the elderly in the countryside.
> 
> Well, you have your choice between de-mannheim or pfl-mannheim.  Perhaps
> both are worth registering.  I certainly don't claim to know.

Limiting "de"  to mean "standard German" seems a non-useful narrowing.
 Consider a clearer example: the many flavors of "Gastarbeiterdeutsch"
(Guest-worker German).  These are clearly not "standard German", but I
can't believe that their initial subtag should be anything other than "de".

Randy

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Tue May 27 22:58:53 2008
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To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group
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Not "gem"?

Karen

________________________________________
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn [randy_presuhn@mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:13 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?

Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
>
> Randy Presuhn scripsit:
>
> > Perhaps this would be a question for ietf-languages@iana.org, but I'll ask
> > it here:  how then would one tag the "Stadtsprache" (city dialect) of Mannheim?
> > While clearly not "standard German", it seems quite a stretch to lump it
> > with the Pfaelzisch one might run into among the elderly in the countryside.
>
> Well, you have your choice between de-mannheim or pfl-mannheim.  Perhaps
> both are worth registering.  I certainly don't claim to know.

Limiting "de"  to mean "standard German" seems a non-useful narrowing.
 Consider a clearer example: the many flavors of "Gastarbeiterdeutsch"
(Guest-worker German).  These are clearly not "standard German", but I
can't believe that their initial subtag should be anything other than "de".

Randy

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Debbie Garside


> Re: Version Skew. As I mentioned more than a month ago on this list,
> the
> Ethnologue online database does not keep pace with ISO 639-3 but
> (according
> to SIL) will be updated prior to publication of the 16th Edition.
>
> Please remember that Ethnologue is not normative in any way.  If you
> want
> information about ISO 639-3 go to the ISO 639-3 site. From there you
> can
> access the linked informative data from Ethnologue whilst at the same
> time
> being assured that the code you are viewing is up to date.

Debbie's descriptions look right to me -- thanks for covering these points.

I do hope that the situation described is good enough for people. I don't know how realistically things could be improved a whole lot. There are still plenty of vague spots and issues, but overall the semantics behind the coding are far more concrete and well defined than they were before.


Peter



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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

>  Consider a clearer example: the many flavors of "Gastarbeiterdeutsch"
> (Guest-worker German).  These are clearly not "standard German", but I
> can't believe that their initial subtag should be anything other than "de".

Again, I can't say, not knowing enough about the domain.  Are they
reasonably mutually intelligible with Standard German, or are we dealing
with a pidgin or creole here, or perhaps several?

Most of the English varieties I hear about me daily in NYC are clearly
"en", even if with a thousand different non-native phonologies.  Some of
them are English-based creoles, or varieties intermediate between creoles
and "en" itself.

But then again, English doesn't work like German or Chinese, where
there is at every location a contrast between "local language"
and "locally influenced variety of the standard language." 
(The creole-English-speaking areas are an exception, as is Scotland;
non-regionally, AAVE works like this too.)

There is no One True Way anywhere.

-- 
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan
Any sufficiently-complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad-hoc,
informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Common Lisp.
        --Greenspun's Tenth Rule of Programming (rules 1-9 are unknown)
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Randy Presuhn

> Perhaps this would be a question for ietf-languages@iana.org, but I'll
> ask
> it here:  how then would one tag the "Stadtsprache" (city dialect) of
> Mannheim?
> While clearly not "standard German", it seems quite a stretch to lump
> it
> with the Pfaelzisch one might run into among the elderly in the
> countryside.

I don't have an answer but rather another question -- a thought experiment:

The colour space is homogeneously continuous and for that reason we can describe individual colour varieties with fine granularity as an array of integers over some range. (I suppose in principle we could use real numbers instead of integers.) But suppose it were not always continuous and certainly not homogeneous: how would we create a system to describe colour varieties? How would we define basic, commonly-used concepts such as RED? In terms of a range or in terms of a particular, focal target colour?

It happens that there was some linguistic research done related to this in the 1960s by Brent Berlin and Paul Kay; this is described in their book _Basic Color Terms_. First, they found certain regularities regarding the basic colour terms found in different languages, but then they also looked at how those basic terms could be defined. It turns out that if you define them in terms of ranges over the spectrum, there are no regularities, either across languages or across speakers within any given language. On the other hand, if you ask individuals to select a best example for a given basic colour term out of a large set of candidate colours (they used a standardized chart of 320 small colour chips), then there is a high degree of regularity across individuals both within a single language and also across languages.

Now, there has been subsequent research suggesting that there may be human-physiological factors contributing to that regularity. I don't know of any such factors contributing to how we define concepts _language X_ or _language Y_, and I doubt any such physiological factors exist. Even so, I find the situation with colour terms to be a useful analogue for considering how to define language concepts: it suggests to me that we would probably have an easier time attaching labels like "de" to certain focal points in the plane rather than trying to define them in terms of some specific set of limits.

Now, _defining_ those basic labels in terms of particular focal points doesn't mean that we never need to have labels (tags) for varieties other than the focal points -- of course, we do. It just means that we face a certain challenge in devising tags for those other varieties. In particular, it's likely that we might encounter some issues in arriving at a single consensus on a tag for particular non-focal varieties: because there are no regularities in how people define the boundaries, one will consider a particular variety to be a variant of X while another will prefer to consider it a variant of Y.

So, let me come back to Randy's question. What's the best way to define something like "de"? If you're a contributor to Ethnologue, then a very reasonable answer is probably Standard High German -- the focal value (best example). How should something like Stadtsprache be tagged? Well, quite possibly with a tag of the form de-X (for some X), though it should be recognized in advance that there may be some debate as to whether it shouldn't rather use a tag of the form Y-Z for some other ISO 639 code element Y.



Peter


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On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 09:12:51PM +0200,
 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote 
 a message of 19 lines which said:

> Do note that your message in the archives is truncated
> <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg10482.html>,
> probably because of the word "F r o m" at the beginning of a line.
> 
> The problem has been reported to the secretariat [rt.amsl.com
> #7581]. 

May I should not have reported it, it is now completely scrambled in
the archive :-(

[I have no news from the secretariat.]
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:13:58 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Broome, Karen

> Of course, if you had actually asked for Mandarin using a precise code
> for Mandarin (either "cmn" or "zh-cmn"), that list doesn't look so ugly,
> does it?
>
> But you didn't ask for Mandarin, you asked for Chinese...

I completely agree. I also note some validity in Mark's concern: there are a lot of users that have been and are still using zh rather than cmn/zh-cmn, and probably a large proportion of them are expecting Mandarin content. But as your following comments note, there's no silver bullet for dealing with that.


> This is where I think we are prioritizing generalized fallback over
> precision in identification -- even if what we are precisely
> identifying is intentionally vague. I lose the ability to identify
> "some kind of Chinese, I don't know what kind" if zh is thought to be
> synonymous with Mandarin. (A real need given the history of these tags.)

I think there's general consensus here that zh is *not* thought to be synonymous with Mandarin; there's just a high-ish degree of statistical correlation in existing usage.


> I also will not know what the user intended if they use the tag "zh".

At best, we can only make a statistical inference: based on usage to date, Mandarin is most likely meant.


> When it becomes possible to tag more specifically, we won't be able to
> know whether the decision to use the more general tag ("zh") was a
> conscious choice or not.

In some closed systems, it may be possible to know, but in an open system involving interchange with other parties in other spheres of control, no.


> zh is a bad tag; its semantics have always been muddy. We are going to
> rather great lengths to avoid deprecating it.

Deprecation for something that has been so widely used is a big step, and it may take some time for people to buy into that. But you are right in saying it is problematic: if there are other Chinese choices besides Mandarin, zh just leaves people forced to make assumptions or guess that may not be valid.

I'd point out that all these things are true whether we use extlang or not, and that extlang is helpful in relation to that problem only to the extent that it can help processes take actions that will match user expectations better.

I think initially I thought it might on the basis that anyone asking for zh-xxx might, by right-truncation fallback, still get matches with existing zh content. I was assuming that would generally be a useful response from the user perspective, and while it probably is for Chinese it isn't in the general case, across all macrolanguages -- if for no other reason, because there isn't a bunch of existing content tagged aym or bal or bik etc. that people want to continue getting matches for.

Also, I was thinking of filtering (in RFC4747 terms), and for filtering I got it backwards: right-truncation fallback allows a request for zh to match content tagged zh-xxx, and in that case it *isn't* helpful in the general case: if someone is making a request using a macrolanguage ID, they're still looking for some particular variety, and in most cases returning *any* encompassed variety probably isn't helpful.

Rather than filtering, it's *lookup* for which a request for zh-cmn would match existing zh content. But I think it's fair to say that lookup is most typically used for UI resource matching or similar scenarios in which the options for available content are likely to be fairly limited and controlled, with users being presented with the set of specific options available. In that kind of controlled environment, fallback from (zh-)cmn to zh is less likely to be needed.



Peter
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To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>, LTRU Working Group
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:41:46 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Peter wrote:

> Rather than filtering, it's *lookup* for which a request for zh-cmn
> would match existing zh content. But I think it's fair to say that
> lookup is most typically used for UI resource matching or similar
> scenarios in which the options for available content are likely to be
> fairly limited and controlled, with users being presented with the set
> of specific options available. In that kind of controlled environment,
> fallback from (zh-)cmn to zh is less likely to be needed.
>

In fact, in my experiments at least, lookup requires some modification in order to produce the best results when working with extlang. For my applications, at least, it seems that treating the primary-extlang pair as "atomic" for at least the first pass makes the most sense. That is, the fallback pattern works better when it goes like this:

zh-cmn-Hans-HK
zh-cmn-Hans
zh-cmn
zh-Hans-HK
zh-Hans
zh
(default)

... then when it goes according to the current rules:

zh-cmn-Hans-HK
zh-cmn-Hans
zh-cmn
zh
(default)

This is especially true when one has mixed content regimes (mixed scripts, regions, dialects, languages, etc.) in which 'zh' can represent only one variety (and frequently the wrong value).

Extlangistas will note that you have to make the same modification if you omit extlang to obtain the *exact* same results:

cmn-Hans-HK
cmn-Hans
cmn
zh-Hans-HK (presumably from Macrolanguage field??)
zh-Hans
zh
(default)

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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Peter,=0AActually, I have the research book of Berlin and Kay. I thought I =
might have been the only one in the world to have read it.=0ABut you make q=
uite a leap in the last para when you equate the focal point to the tag.=0A=
Making the ideal equivalent to the tag, then makes everything non-ideal exc=
luded, when in fact until now it is a superset. (Which is what this discuss=
ion revolves around.)=0ARather, I would think you would make the ideal a su=
btag. In fact standardizing the subtag for the most representative dialect =
would then help define the more general case while not limiting it.=0A=A0So=
 if N1 is used to represent number 1 or best case, then you can identify be=
st cases for each language and still have primary tags be more inclusive; d=
e-N1 Also people can then specify if they want the most general or the most=
 representative languages for langs like zh.=0Atex=0A> -----Original Messag=
e-----=0A> From: Peter Constable [=0A> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:53 A=
M=0A> To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group=0A> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'd=
e' really mean "only standard German"?=0A> =0A> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.o=
rg [=0A> On Behalf=0A> > Of Randy Presuhn=0A> =0A> > Perhaps this would be =
a question for=0A> ietf-languages@iana.org, but I'll=0A> > ask it here: how=
 then would one tag the "Stadtsprache" =0A> (city dialect)=0A> > of Mannhei=
m?=0A> > While clearly not "standard German", it seems quite a=0A> stretch =
to lump=0A> > it with the Pfaelzisch one might run into among the elderly i=
n the =0A> > countryside.=0A> =0A> I don't have an answer but rather anothe=
r question -- a thought =0A> experiment:=0A> =0A> The colour space is homog=
eneously continuous and for that reason we =0A> can describe individual col=
our varieties with fine granularity as an =0A> array of integers over some =
range. (I suppose in principle we could =0A> use real numbers instead of=0A=
> integers.) But suppose it were not always continuous and certainly not =
=0A> homogeneous: how would we create a system to describe colour =0A> vari=
eties? How would we define basic, commonly-used concepts such as =0A> RED? =
In terms of a range or in terms of a particular, focal target =0A> colour?=
=0A> =0A> It happens that there was some linguistic research done related t=
o =0A> this in the 1960s by Brent Berlin and Paul Kay; this is described in=
 =0A> their book _Basic Color Terms_. First, they found certain regularitie=
s =0A> regarding the basic colour terms found in different languages, but =
=0A> then they also looked at how those basic terms could be defined. It =
=0A> turns out that if you define them in terms of ranges over the =0A> spe=
ctrum, there are no regularities, either across languages or across =0A> sp=
eakers within any given language. On the other hand, if you ask =0A> indivi=
duals to select a best example for a given basic colour term out =0A> of a =
large set of candidate colours (they used a standardized chart of =0A> 320 =
small colour chips), then there is a high degree of regularity =0A> across =
individuals both within a single language and also across =0A> languages.=
=0A> =0A> Now, there has been subsequent research suggesting that there may=
 be =0A> human-physiological factors contributing to that regularity. I don=
't =0A> know of any such factors contributing to how we define concepts =0A=
> _language X_ or _language Y_, and I doubt any such physiological =0A> fac=
tors exist. Even so, I find the situation with colour terms to be a =0A> us=
eful analogue for considering how to define language concepts: it =0A> sugg=
ests to me that we would probably have an easier time attaching =0A> labels=
 like "de" to certain focal points in the plane rather than =0A> trying to =
define them in terms of some specific set of limits.=0A> =0A> Now, _definin=
g_ those basic labels in terms of particular focal points =0A> doesn't mean=
 that we never need to have labels=0A> (tags) for varieties other than the =
focal points -- of course, we do. =0A> It just means that we face a certain=
 challenge in devising tags for =0A> those other varieties. In particular, =
it's likely that we might =0A> encounter some issues in arriving at a singl=
e consensus on a tag for =0A> particular non-focal=0A> varieties: because t=
here are no regularities in how people define the =0A> boundaries, one will=
 consider a particular variety to be a variant of =0A> X while another will=
 prefer to consider it a variant of Y.=0A> =0A> So, let me come back to Ran=
dy's question. What's the best way to =0A> define something like "de"? If y=
ou're a contributor to Ethnologue, =0A> then a very reasonable answer is pr=
obably Standard High German -- the =0A> focal value (best example). How sho=
uld something like Stadtsprache be =0A> tagged? Well, quite possibly with a=
 tag of the form de-X (for some X), =0A> though it should be recognized in =
advance that there may be some =0A> debate as to whether it shouldn't rathe=
r use a tag of the form Y-Z for =0A> some other ISO 639 code element Y.=0A>=
 =0A> =0A> =0A> Peter=0A> mailto:petercon@microsoft.com]mailto:ltru-bounces=
@ietf.org]=0A=0A=0A      
--0-1523211661-1211999662=:31785
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<DIV><FONT size=2>
<P>Peter,</P>
<P>Actually, I have the research book of Berlin and Kay. I thought I might have been the only one in the world to have read it.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>But you make quite a leap in the last para when you equate the focal point to the tag.</P>
<P>Making the ideal equivalent to the tag, then makes everything non-ideal excluded, when in fact until now it is a superset. (Which is what this discussion revolves around.)</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Rather, I would think you would make the ideal a subtag. In fact standardizing the subtag for the most representative dialect would then help define the more general case while not limiting it.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;So if N1 is used to represent number 1 or best case, then you can identify best cases for each language and still have primary tags be more inclusive; de-N1 Also people can then specify if they want the most general or the most representative languages for langs like zh.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>tex</P>
<P>&gt; -----Original Message-----</P>
<P>&gt; From: Peter Constable [</FONT><A href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com"><U><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>mailto:petercon@microsoft.com</U></FONT></A><FONT size=2>]</P>
<P>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:53 AM</P>
<P>&gt; To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group</P>
<P>&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?</P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; &gt; From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [</FONT><A href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org"><U><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org</U></FONT></A><FONT size=2>]</P>
<P>&gt; On Behalf</P>
<P>&gt; &gt; Of Randy Presuhn</P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; &gt; Perhaps this would be a question for</P>
<P>&gt; ietf-languages@iana.org, but I'll</P>
<P>&gt; &gt; ask it here: how then would one tag the "Stadtsprache" </P>
<P>&gt; (city dialect)</P>
<P>&gt; &gt; of Mannheim?</P>
<P>&gt; &gt; While clearly not "standard German", it seems quite a</P>
<P>&gt; stretch to lump</P>
<P>&gt; &gt; it with the Pfaelzisch one might run into among the elderly in the </P>
<P>&gt; &gt; countryside.</P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; I don't have an answer but rather another question -- a thought </P>
<P>&gt; experiment:</P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; The colour space is homogeneously continuous and for that reason we </P>
<P>&gt; can describe individual colour varieties with fine granularity as an </P>
<P>&gt; array of integers over some range. (I suppose in principle we could </P>
<P>&gt; use real numbers instead of</P>
<P>&gt; integers.) But suppose it were not always continuous and certainly not </P>
<P>&gt; homogeneous: how would we create a system to describe colour </P>
<P>&gt; varieties? How would we define basic, commonly-used concepts such as </P>
<P>&gt; RED? In terms of a range or in terms of a particular, focal target </P>
<P>&gt; colour?</P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; It happens that there was some linguistic research done related to </P>
<P>&gt; this in the 1960s by Brent Berlin and Paul Kay; this is described in </P>
<P>&gt; their book _Basic Color Terms_. First, they found certain regularities </P>
<P>&gt; regarding the basic colour terms found in different languages, but </P>
<P>&gt; then they also looked at how those basic terms could be defined. It </P>
<P>&gt; turns out that if you define them in terms of ranges over the </P>
<P>&gt; spectrum, there are no regularities, either across languages or across </P>
<P>&gt; speakers within any given language. On the other hand, if you ask </P>
<P>&gt; individuals to select a best example for a given basic colour term out </P>
<P>&gt; of a large set of candidate colours (they used a standardized chart of </P>
<P>&gt; 320 small colour chips), then there is a high degree of regularity </P>
<P>&gt; across individuals both within a single language and also across </P>
<P>&gt; languages.</P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; Now, there has been subsequent research suggesting that there may be </P>
<P>&gt; human-physiological factors contributing to that regularity. I don't </P>
<P>&gt; know of any such factors contributing to how we define concepts </P>
<P>&gt; _language X_ or _language Y_, and I doubt any such physiological </P>
<P>&gt; factors exist. Even so, I find the situation with colour terms to be a </P>
<P>&gt; useful analogue for considering how to define language concepts: it </P>
<P>&gt; suggests to me that we would probably have an easier time attaching </P>
<P>&gt; labels like "de" to certain focal points in the plane rather than </P>
<P>&gt; trying to define them in terms of some specific set of limits.</P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; Now, _defining_ those basic labels in terms of particular focal points </P>
<P>&gt; doesn't mean that we never need to have labels</P>
<P>&gt; (tags) for varieties other than the focal points -- of course, we do. </P>
<P>&gt; It just means that we face a certain challenge in devising tags for </P>
<P>&gt; those other varieties. In particular, it's likely that we might </P>
<P>&gt; encounter some issues in arriving at a single consensus on a tag for </P>
<P>&gt; particular non-focal</P>
<P>&gt; varieties: because there are no regularities in how people define the </P>
<P>&gt; boundaries, one will consider a particular variety to be a variant of </P>
<P>&gt; X while another will prefer to consider it a variant of Y.</P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; So, let me come back to Randy's question. What's the best way to </P>
<P>&gt; define something like "de"? If you're a contributor to Ethnologue, </P>
<P>&gt; then a very reasonable answer is probably Standard High German -- the </P>
<P>&gt; focal value (best example). How should something like Stadtsprache be </P>
<P>&gt; tagged? Well, quite possibly with a tag of the form de-X (for some X), </P>
<P>&gt; though it should be recognized in advance that there may be some </P>
<P>&gt; debate as to whether it shouldn't rather use a tag of the form Y-Z for </P>
<P>&gt; some other ISO 639 code element Y.</P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; </P>
<P>&gt; Peter</P>
<P>&gt; </P></FONT></DIV></div><br>



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Randy wrote:

> Later in this message I will be asking some questions.... Please respond no later than Saturday, May 24th, wherever you are.

I realize I am late to the party. However, having been on vacation, I would like to add my response to this call (not having found a consensus determination in the thread yet and understanding that my response may be ignored by the chairs).

> Q1: The current draft does away with the "extlang" production.

>         A - I like this.
>
> Q2: We could go back to using "extlang" in the grammar, requiring its
>     use for representing "encompassed" languages that are being added.

>         B - I could live with this.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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> >
> > Well, you have your choice between de-mannheim or pfl-mannheim.
> Perhaps
> > both are worth registering.  I certainly don't claim to know.
>
> Limiting "de"  to mean "standard German" seems a non-useful narrowing.
>  Consider a clearer example: the many flavors of "Gastarbeiterdeutsch"
> (Guest-worker German).  These are clearly not "standard German", but I
> can't believe that their initial subtag should be anything other than
> "de".
>

This argument can easily be extended to any language one cares to name, since languages provide a wide range of expressiveness and people have varying degrees of idiosyncrasy or command of the language in question. In one of my presentations about language tags I quote this bit of introduction by Mark Twain which seems instructive here:

--
IN this book a number of dialects are used, to wit: the Missouri negro dialect; the extremest form of the backwoods Southwestern dialect; the ordinary "Pike County" dialect; and four modified varieties of this last. The shadings have not been done in a haphazard fashion, or by guesswork; but painstakingly, and with the trustworthy guidance and support of personal familiarity with these several forms of speech. I make this explanation for the reason that without it many readers would suppose that all these characters were trying to talk alike and not succeeding.
--

That language tags do not capture the full richness of human expression should not be surprising. Attempts to capture every nuance of a given language artifact in a single tag are counter-productive.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.



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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May 28 15:08:49 2008
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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Don Osborn'" <dzo@bisharat.net>, "'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>,
	"'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:10:16 +0100
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Subject: [Ltru] [A little OT] Feedback and Communication was (Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language )
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Hi Don

On the question of adaption of technologies in relation to language tagging
I believe this is possibly the right forum depending on how much the RFC can
assist - although certainly not the only one.  On the question of feedback
on particular tags and whether there is a requirement for new subtags
IETF-languages is the correct forum - generally after the ISO 639 process
has been pursued and failed.

That said, very often good discussion is (rightly) stopped on both LTRU and
IETF-Languages as being out of scope or off topic. So, I do see what you are
trying to say and I would agree that, perhaps, there is a need for another
forum that can communicate feedback on the various efforts.    Not sure who
would or should have 'ownership' of that forum.  I think it would prove very
interesting.  I think it could also prove useful for standardization efforts
when applying for new, or changes to, ISO 639 codes if feedback/actual use
case scenarios from a user community is presented in support of such an
application.

If you want to establish such a forum I would certainly join.

Best wishes

Debbie
PS We/you could do it as part of our remit within WLDC



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Osborn [mailto:dzo@bisharat.net]
> Sent: 28 May 2008 22:00
> To: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'; debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
> Cc: 'A12n tech support'
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Macrolanguage, Extlang. The Sami language
> situatation as example
>
> In a strict sense I think Debbie and Doug are right. However
> in the context of our ultimate goal of making the technology
> work for language(s) we're talking about one element in a
> system - and there needs to be some way(s) to assure feedback
> among parts of that larger system. Put another way, there
> seems to be a risk of important information falling in the
> gaps if related efforts focus uniquely on their respective
> tasks and there is no attention to connections.
>
> I had a not dissimilar discussion regarding the locales
> process (in the PanAfrican Localisation Network project's
> subproject on locales that I mentioned previously). Some
> colleagues expressed the thought that they didn't want to get
> tied up with ISO 639 issues. However dealing with locales,
> which like tagging depend on ISO 639, provides an excellent
> opportunity to get feedback on the coding system (with
> potential benefits in turn for more work on locales).
> Ultimately we agreed that there will be attention to this issue.
>
> For both locales and tagging, I agree there are more focused
> goals and deliverables that are essential, and I wouldn't
> want to encumber either. However, given our ultimate purpose
> of facilitating the adaptation of the technology to the
> realities of language(s), shouldn't there be a way of
> assuring feedback and communication among the various efforts?
>
> Don
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf
> > Of Doug Ewell
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:53 PM
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage, Extlang. The Sami language
> > situatation as example
> >
> > Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Where we need to draw the line is when the discussion
> comes into the
> > > realm of re-designing ISO 639 or making language classification
> > > decisions.  This is absolutely beyond the scope of this WG and
> > > should be directed to ISO TC37/SC2/WG1 or the ISO 639
> JAC.  As this
> > > RFC is way over the timescale originally envisaged for
> completion it
> > > is in everyone's interest to try to resolve the issues that are
> > > within
> > scope
> > > rather than focussing on issues that cannot be resolved
> other than
> > > by external parties.  But this is just my humble opinion in the
> > > light of trying to get the important issues, such as extlang/no
> > > extlang resolved, the ultimate call is with the co-chairs.
> >
> > Also my opinion.  Specifically, remaking ISO 639-3 wouldn't
> be in our
> > scope even if we weren't more than 15 months behind
> schedule (*) but
> > given that we are, it is especially important to focus on
> getting the
> > chartered work done.
> >
> > (*) I was wrong earlier when I implied the we were over two years
> > behind.  I still think the original charter had us
> finishing our work
> > in early 2006, but actual publication was always contingent on the
> > rollout of ISO 639-3.  Their first "official" downloadable
> files came
> > in February 2007.  So we're "only" 15.n months behind, except that
> > somehow I don't feel like IETF LC is right around the corner.
> >
> > --
> > Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > http://www.ewellic.org
> > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>
>
>




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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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> From: Texin, Tex [mailto:Tex.Texin@netapp.com]

> Actually, I have the research book of Berlin and Kay. I thought I might
> have been the only one in the world to have read it.

I have to admit, while I've known about their work for a long time, I've never seen or read the book; I was relying on other references (for this discussion, a book by George Lakoff discussing cognitive models by which we define concepts).


> But you make quite a leap in the last para when you equate the focal
> point to the tag.
> Making the ideal equivalent to the tag, then makes everything non-ideal
> excluded, when in fact until now it is a superset. (Which is what this
> discussion revolves around.)

What I meant was that the best way to document the denotation of a code element like "de" is in terms of the best example rather than in terms of specifying a range, though in terms of application of that code element we would allow it to be used over some range of varieties (even though the limits to the range haven't been defined).

If you think about it, that's just the same things we do in Unicode for character coding.


> Rather, I would think you would make the ideal a subtag. In fact
> standardizing the subtag for the most representative dialect would then
> help define the more general case while not limiting it. So if N1 is
> used to represent number 1 or best case, then you can identify best
> cases for each language and still have primary tags be more inclusive;
> de-N1 Also people can then specify if they want the most general or the
> most representative languages for langs like zh.

Every tag must allow for some range of variation. For instance, even if we're considering some ideal, conventional variety, two native speakers of that language do not express things in exactly the same way. There will always be some degree of variation for any language category we define. So, it's not a matter of picking one specific value versus allow some range of variation; rather, it's a matter of deciding what order of range of variation is scoped by a given category.

In evaluating ISO 639-2 to decide how the denotation of existing code elements should be characterized with a greater degree of precision, there were a few hundred choices that had to be made regarding scope. When faced with something like "ar" or "de", the approach that seemed to make most sense, considering common usage wrt tagged content and resources, was to scope at the individual-language level, which in those cases meant the standard varieties. We went as far as to come up with some operational definitions to apply that approach consistently across the board, but then we encountered some division in approach to usage in the case of some languages. Chinese was a particularly obvious case because of the pre-existing tags registered under RFC 1766. So, we ended up adopting a different principle for those cases, leading to the macrolanguage concept. Should we have taken the different approach for even more cases, such as "de"? Well, I had no information pointing to "de" being used for anything other than the standard variety: A/V content was not yet a major consideration in application of language tags, and wrt the most likely non-standard variety that could potentially have been lumped into "de", Swiss German (i.e. gsw), I kept hearing that written usage was not significant. If "de" had been analyzed the same way as "zh", then we'd be facing all the same problems for "de" as we are facing now for "zh".

So, while it isn't all perfect, I think what was done was reasonable and workable. And I think there can appropriate cases in which tags of the form de-variantx might be used to describe some specific variaties that could reasonably be considered as within the scope for the standard variety. (But don't ask me which are or are not appropriate cases for "de".)



Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situatation as example
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Hi -

Martin and I double-checked the tally, and it turns out that
*two* responses were sent directly to me, rather  than to the
ltru@ietf.org mailing list.  One was sent after the deadline.
Here's the tally including those three:

Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4
Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4

Excluding those three responses, it looks like:
Q1: A-2 B-9 C-3
Q2: A-7  B-5 C-2

Either way, the support for an extlang-less approach appears to
be in he distinct minority, and there appears to be a marked
preference (which we'll call a *rough* consensus) for
"reinstating" extlang.

Or have a bunch of people changed their minds?

Randy


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed May 28 18:04:02 2008
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Subject: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Aw heck. I have been trying hard to resist engaging on this for months and months, but now my resistance is gone...
If you don't mind late votes, then put me down for:
Q1: A
Q2: C
tex
Hi -
Martin and I double-checked the tally, and it turns out that
*two* responses were sent directly to me, rather than to the ltru@ietf.org mailing list. One was sent after the deadline.
Here's the tally including those three:
Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4
Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4
Excluding those three responses, it looks like:
Q1: A-2 B-9 C-3
Q2: A-7 B-5 C-2
Either way, the support for an extlang-less approach appears to be in he distinct minority, and there appears to be a marked preference (which we'll call a *rough* consensus) for "reinstating" extlang.
Or have a bunch of people changed their minds?
Randy


      
--0-755008388-1212023038=:90603
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<P>Aw heck. I have been trying hard to resist engaging on this for months and months, but now my resistance is gone...</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>If you don't mind late votes, then put me down for:</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Q1: A</P>
<P>Q2: C</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>tex</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Hi -</P>
<P>Martin and I double-checked the tally, and it turns out that</P>
<P>*two* responses were sent directly to me, rather than to the ltru@ietf.org mailing list. One was sent after the deadline.</P>
<P>Here's the tally including those three:</P>
<P>Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4</P>
<P>Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4</P>
<P>Excluding those three responses, it looks like:</P>
<P>Q1: A-2 B-9 C-3</P>
<P>Q2: A-7 B-5 C-2</P>
<P>Either way, the support for an extlang-less approach appears to be in he distinct minority, and there appears to be a marked preference (which we'll call a *rough* consensus) for "reinstating" extlang.</P>
<P>Or have a bunch of people changed their minds?</P>
<P>Randy</P></FONT></DIV></div><br>



      </body></html>
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Randy Presuhn

> Or have a bunch of people changed their minds?

Well, if it's worth anything, I think I mentioned that my B/B vote for Q1/Q2 was leaning on the A/C side provided we could find a way to satisfy major concerns and keep all industry sectors represented following one spec. I haven't changed in that regard.



Peter
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From: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
To: "ltru@ietf.org" <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:26:22 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Why are people so afraid to restate their honest opinions on this? Why are people only voting in private? I'm getting private e-mail too.

I thought the primary goal was identification, not fallback. Without extlang, we lose some information the ISO standards otherwise contain.  I think we may be losing an oppportunity to clean up some historically muddy tags. I raise questions about identification and I am answered with arguments about fallback. I honestly fear this draft may not be an improvement for me.

Phrases like "throws in the towel," "my resistance is gone," "as neutral as I can be" ... Something does not feel good about this.


Karen Broome


________________________________________
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of tex [textexin@xencraft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:03 PM
To: ltru@ietf.org
Subject: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang

Aw heck. I have been trying hard to resist engaging on this for months and months, but now my resistance is gone...



If you don't mind late votes, then put me down for:



Q1: A

Q2: C



tex





Hi -

Martin and I double-checked the tally, and it turns out that

*two* responses were sent directly to me, rather than to the ltru@ietf.org mailing list. One was sent after the deadline.

Here's the tally including those three:

Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4

Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4

Excluding those three responses, it looks like:

Q1: A-2 B-9 C-3

Q2: A-7 B-5 C-2

Either way, the support for an extlang-less approach appears to be in he distinct minority, and there appears to be a marked preference (which we'll call a *rough* consensus) for "reinstating" extlang.

Or have a bunch of people changed their minds?

Randy


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 Extlang. The Sami language situatation as example
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-29 02.17:

> While we can provide constructive feedback, we should not allow
> ourselves or others to confuse this with "running" ISO or 
> taking over their work items.


Seriously, let's allow others to care for their own confusion. ;-)
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
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If identification is what you want, then "cmn" IS unambigously Mandarin
(indeterminate script); "yue" is unambiguously Cantonese (indeterminate
script); you certainly don't need extlang complicating matters.
The string "zh-yue" is really a different semantic; it is not just
Cantonese, it is
"Cantonese-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-indeterminate-script" in
lookup (but not some other operations like RFC 4646 filtering).

And "zh-yue-Hant-MO"
is "Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han-script-and-as-used-in-Macao-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-indeterminent-script",
again, in lookup.

Mark

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Broome, Karen <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
wrote:

> Why are people so afraid to restate their honest opinions on this? Why are
> people only voting in private? I'm getting private e-mail too.
>
> I thought the primary goal was identification, not fallback. Without
> extlang, we lose some information the ISO standards otherwise contain.  I
> think we may be losing an oppportunity to clean up some historically muddy
> tags. I raise questions about identification and I am answered with
> arguments about fallback. I honestly fear this draft may not be an
> improvement for me.
>
> Phrases like "throws in the towel," "my resistance is gone," "as neutral as
> I can be" ... Something does not feel good about this.
>
>
> Karen Broome
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of tex [
> textexin@xencraft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:03 PM
> To: ltru@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
> Aw heck. I have been trying hard to resist engaging on this for months and
> months, but now my resistance is gone...
>
>
>
> If you don't mind late votes, then put me down for:
>
>
>
> Q1: A
>
> Q2: C
>
>
>
> tex
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi -
>
> Martin and I double-checked the tally, and it turns out that
>
> *two* responses were sent directly to me, rather than to the ltru@ietf.orgmailing list. One was sent after the deadline.
>
> Here's the tally including those three:
>
> Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4
>
> Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4
>
> Excluding those three responses, it looks like:
>
> Q1: A-2 B-9 C-3
>
> Q2: A-7 B-5 C-2
>
> Either way, the support for an extlang-less approach appears to be in he
> distinct minority, and there appears to be a marked preference (which we'll
> call a *rough* consensus) for "reinstating" extlang.
>
> Or have a bunch of people changed their minds?
>
> Randy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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If identification is what you want, then &quot;cmn&quot; IS unambigously Mandarin (indeterminate&nbsp;script); &quot;yue&quot; is unambiguously Cantonese (indeterminate script); you certainly don&#39;t need extlang complicating matters.<div>
<br></div><div>The string &quot;zh-yue&quot; is really a different semantic; it is not just Cantonese, it is &quot;Cantonese-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-indeterminate-script&quot; in lookup (but not some other operations like RFC 4646 filtering).</div>
<div><br></div><div>And &quot;zh-yue-Hant-MO&quot; is&nbsp;&quot;Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han-script-and-as-used-in-Macao-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-indeterminent-script&quot;, again, in lookup.</div><div><br></div>
<div>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Broome, Karen &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Why are people so afraid to restate their honest opinions on this? Why are people only voting in private? I&#39;m getting private e-mail too.<br>
<br>
I thought the primary goal was identification, not fallback. Without extlang, we lose some information the ISO standards otherwise contain. &nbsp;I think we may be losing an oppportunity to clean up some historically muddy tags. I raise questions about identification and I am answered with arguments about fallback. I honestly fear this draft may not be an improvement for me.<br>

<br>
Phrases like &quot;throws in the towel,&quot; &quot;my resistance is gone,&quot; &quot;as neutral as I can be&quot; ... Something does not feel good about this.<br>
<br>
<br>
Karen Broome<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of tex [<a href="mailto:textexin@xencraft.com">textexin@xencraft.com</a>]<br>

Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:03 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
Aw heck. I have been trying hard to resist engaging on this for months and months, but now my resistance is gone...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If you don&#39;t mind late votes, then put me down for:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Q1: A<br>
<br>
Q2: C<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
tex<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi -<br>
<br>
Martin and I double-checked the tally, and it turns out that<br>
<br>
*two* responses were sent directly to me, rather than to the <a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a> mailing list. One was sent after the deadline.<br>
<br>
Here&#39;s the tally including those three:<br>
<br>
Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4<br>
<br>
Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4<br>
<br>
Excluding those three responses, it looks like:<br>
<br>
Q1: A-2 B-9 C-3<br>
<br>
Q2: A-7 B-5 C-2<br>
<br>
Either way, the support for an extlang-less approach appears to be in he distinct minority, and there appears to be a marked preference (which we&#39;ll call a *rough* consensus) for &quot;reinstating&quot; extlang.<br>
<br>
Or have a bunch of people changed their minds?<br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
</div>

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
...
> So, while it isn't all perfect, I think what was done was reasonable
> and workable. And I think there can appropriate cases in which tags
> of the form de-variantx might be used to describe some specific variaties
> that could reasonably be considered as within the scope for the standard
> variety. (But don't ask me which are or are not appropriate cases for "de".)

I could agree with saying that "de" is "exemplified by standard German".
This reflects reality and does not cause problems.

I cannot agree with saying that "de" somehow *is* "standard German".
This leaves all non-standard varieties which have not been given language
codes of their own in some sort of limbo, potentially requiring new top-level
codes for things which really should not need them.  (I have great difficulty
understanding how a non-standard variety would be "within the scope for
the standard variety".)

Randy

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
 Extlang. The Sami language situation as example
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-29 05.45:

> Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform dot no> wrote:
> 
>>> While we can provide constructive feedback, we should not allow 
>>> ourselves or others to confuse this with "running" ISO or taking over 
>>> their work items.
>>
>> Seriously, let's allow others to care for their own confusion. ;-)
> 
> The problem is worse than you might think.  We've been accused in the 
> past of trying to overrun ISO.  It's important (at least to me) that we 
> don't set ourselves up for such false accusations.

In that regard: Do you think that it is possible that extlang in 
itself could be misperceived by ISO? Could the ISO think that LTRU 
*wants* them to define Macrolanguaes, which then would become 
extlang tagged - or something like that? Or, could ISO begin 
wanting to interfer with this group, or perhaps refrain from 
defining macrolanguages, picking other methods for grouping 
languages, because they don't like the extlang tagging that it 
leads to?
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> I cannot agree with saying that "de" somehow *is* "standard German".

Well, no actually extant variety *is* Standard German, strictly speaking:
Standard German (as defined, say, in Duden) doesn't *exactly* match
anybody's idiolect.  However, what's described there is close enough
to many other idiolects that we can collectively call them all "de"
without crossing any mutual-intelligibility barriers.  (To me, "de"
is the set of idiolects mutually intelligible with my mother's; her
German was about as uninfluenced by locality as you could imagine,
bar a very occasional /x/ for "-g" other than "-ig", which she would
conscientiously warn her first-year German students not to emulate.)

> This leaves all non-standard varieties which have not been given
> language codes of their own in some sort of limbo, potentially requiring
> new top-level codes for things which really should not need them.
> (I have great difficulty understanding how a non-standard variety
> would be "within the scope for the standard variety".)

By being mutually intelligible with it, and therefore in some sense
part of it.  That way, new top-level codes can be, and are, properly
reserved for things that are *not* mutually intelligible with "de".
(I am using "mutually intelligible" as shorthand for the actual criteria
used by 639-3/RA; see http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#I .)

-- 
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org   http://ccil.org/~cowan
Promises become binding when there is a meeting of the minds and consideration
is exchanged. So it was at King's Bench in common law England; so it was
under the common law in the American colonies; so it was through more than
two centuries of jurisprudence in this country; and so it is today.
       --Specht v. Netscape
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situation as example
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Mark Davis 2008-05-29 06.14:

> [...] The string "zh-yue" is really a different semantic; it is
>  not just Cantonese, it is "Cantonese-but-fall-back-to- 
> ambiguously-Chinese-of-indeterminate-script" in lookup (but not
> some other operations like RFC 4646 filtering). [...]


If the focus is identification, then the fallback and filtering 
doesn't matter (or must be defined subsequently).  Certainly, 
however, it is because 'zh-yue' can be identified with 'zh' that 
it can default/fall back to 'zh'.  By saying 'zh-yue' we are also 
identifying 'zh' - as a wide tag.

Extlang makes identifying/finding *all* Chinese languages simple, 
for those that need to do find them all. It would only require 
that you ask for 'zh'. Thus with extlang one could start tagging 
resources spesificly *immediatly*, because it should be highly 
compatible with existing application behaviour.

(Btw, this approach strikes me as higly compatible with another 
popular slogan: Don't break the Web.)

Whether 'zh' or any other Macrolanguage tag would be recommended 
  - alone or together with more spesific tags - as "preferred 
language tag" in Web browsers etc, is a question that must be 
determined by examining the situation for each language and 
localisation.  And it must determined separately from the question 
of how to tag the resources to be consumed (text/audio/video) by 
that program.

(I personally have a hard time thinking that it will *ever* happen 
that e.g. a Chinese user will *not* need to ask for 'zh' 
regardless what we do.)

> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Broome, Karen: 
>> I thought the primary goal was identification, not fallback.
>> Without extlang, we lose some information the ISO standards
>> otherwise contain.  I think we may be losing an oppportunity
>> to clean up some historically muddy tags. I raise questions
>> about identification and I am answered with arguments about
>> fallback. I honestly fear this draft may not be an 
>> improvement for me


What I have understood lately, because I've understood better how 
fallback works, is that extlang WRT fallback is closer to the 
no-extlang solution than I thought. This fact ought to be a reason 
to  focus more on the identifaction issue. The identification 
issue is also more related to tagging *resources* than to saying 
how *applications* should find those resources. At the same time, 
it is of course good to have a compatible model.

I think that deprecating the 'zh' or any of the other 
macrolanguage tags must be out of question. If the purpose of the 
RFC is to deal especially with the Macrolanguages, then it would 
be a strange thing to deprecate those tags. ISO has defined them. 
They must be accepted. Instead  one could focus on saying hat 
macrolanguage tags and extlang tags are good for different 
purposes. One should generally advice strongly against using the 
macrolanguage subtags alone, for tagging, for the identication 
reasons you mention. While at the same time doing a much more 
careful evaluation about what to do inside Web browsers and other 
applications that can be used to find those resources.

This thing with "historically muddy tags" is important. The 
identification argument *is* connected to those Macrolanguage tags 
which are allready in use, and especially to those Macrolanguage 
tags which have been the sole tag for an entire Macrolanguage.

Btw, for those macrolanguages which will not get extlang, we 
should get into the RFC, that to use the Macrolanguage subtag in 
e.g. a Web browser will lead to all encompassed languages being 
included. (With the exception for Swahili, Uzbek etc.) That way, 
for those Macrolanguges which are covering closely related 
encompassed languages, the users and implementors will only need 
to include two tags in order to cover the entire Macrolanguage 
*and* to specify one's preferred encompassed language. I.e. the 
same number of tags that those *with* encompassed languages 
generally will need to include .
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Leif Halvard Silli 2008-05-29 09.01:
   [... snip to last sentence ... ]

> I.e. the same number of tags that those *with* encompassed
> languages generally will need to include .


Sorry, meant to say "... those *with* extlang language tags ...".
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Broome, Karen wrote:
> I thought the primary goal was identification, not fallback. 
> Without extlang, we lose some information the ISO standards 
> otherwise contain. 

You seem to be arguing for (in an ideal case) a partial
language family hierarcy in each tag. Tags like

gem-de (or gem-deu)

or even

und-ine-gem-de-gsw

and the like. Of course that is not possible to introduce, for
several reasons. I'm just trying to understand your argument.
As Mark mentioned, the individual language codes do identify
a language, without explicitly giving any part of the
hierarchy in the tag.

	/kent k

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Kent Karlsson 2008-05-29 10.07:

> Broome, Karen wrote:
>> I thought the primary goal was identification, not fallback. 
>> Without extlang, we lose some information the ISO standards 
>> otherwise contain. 
> 
> You seem to be arguing for (in an ideal case) a partial
> language family hierarcy in each tag. Tags like
> 
> gem-de (or gem-deu)
> 
> or even
> 
> und-ine-gem-de-gsw
> 
> and the like. Of course that is not possible to introduce, for
> several reasons. I'm just trying to understand your argument.
> As Mark mentioned, the individual language codes do identify
> a language, without explicitly giving any part of the
> hierarchy in the tag.

Like I said in my response, I think the identification issue has 
to do with the currently used general tags. If 'gem' a) had been a 
macrolanguage tag and b) had been the currently used tag for all 
the encompassed languages, then we would have had the same situation.

Then, when ISO defineed "deu" as tag for Hochdeutch, LTRU could 
have implempented tagging as 'gem-deu'. Browsers searching for 
'gem' would still find it, while we at the same time could get new 
browsers to search for  'gem-deu' primarely and 'gem' secondly.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group
	<ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 07:51:20 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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> One was sent after the deadline.

If this was my vote (sent yesterday prior to your message), your "revised totals" appear wrong, as I voted "A,B". If this wasn't my vote, then including my vote in the late count doesn't make the numbers wholly different.

> Either way, the support for an extlang-less approach appears to
> be in he distinct minority, and there appears to be a marked
> preference (which we'll call a *rough* consensus) for
> "reinstating" extlang.

This is not a situation in which either camp has a totally decisive argument up its sleeve. While I think this is the wrong way to go (obviously, as I supported removing extlang), some kind of decision is desirable.

As co-editor, my immediate concern is how to implement this. Assuming that we don't do a new round of voting and persuasion, I can hardly restore the text we had prior to removing extlang because some serious editing has occurred since then. We will need to decide what criteria are used to register and maintain extlangs as a result (a problem we were struggling with prior to the decision to remove extlang). What will be necessary, I think, is a stem-to-stern restore-and-edit pass with the particular notes of interest sent to the list. The resulting draft will then need to be reviewed by the list.

If there is some doubt about whether the results of this consensus call will hold, I would point out that this might be a useful exercise in any event, as we can compare this putative "draft-15" (incorporating feedback from the list, of course) to the current draft-14 more directly: we can compare each other's cherry picking machines for elegance :-).

Is this the decision, Randy and Martin? Or should we waffle along a bit longer?

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:22 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
> Hi -
>
> Martin and I double-checked the tally, and it turns out that
> *two* responses were sent directly to me, rather  than to the
> ltru@ietf.org mailing list.  One was sent after the deadline.
> Here's the tally including those three:
>
> Q1: A-4 B-9 C-4
> Q2: A-8 B-5 C-4
>
> Excluding those three responses, it looks like:
> Q1: A-2 B-9 C-3
> Q2: A-7  B-5 C-2
>
> Either way, the support for an extlang-less approach appears to
> be in he distinct minority, and there appears to be a marked
> preference (which we'll call a *rough* consensus) for
> "reinstating" extlang.
>
> Or have a bunch of people changed their minds?
>
> Randy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Macrolanguage, Extlang. The Sami language situation as
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli


> In that regard: Do you think that it is possible that extlang in
> itself could be misperceived by ISO? Could the ISO think that LTRU
> *wants* them to define Macrolanguaes, which then would become
> extlang tagged - or something like that? Or, could ISO begin
> wanting to interfer with this group, or perhaps refrain from
> defining macrolanguages, picking other methods for grouping
> languages, because they don't like the extlang tagging that it
> leads to?

OK, I guess we're even now on the second-guessing business. (My apologies for coming across that way.)

The ISO 639 JAC has never once discussed extlang. The initial innovation of macrolanguages in drafts of 639-3 was influenced by RFC 3066 and existing registered language tags, as I have explained in detail enough times now, and future decisions regarding macrolanguages made by the ISO 639 JAC or TCs 37 or 46 *should* be taking into account any potential impact on BCP 47 (which currently is none, and depending on the final form of 4646bis may remain none). Neither the ISO 639 JAC or TCs 36 or 46 has every discussed the LTRU WG that I am aware of.


Peter
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To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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 Extlang. The Sami language situation as example
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From: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
To: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>, "ltru@ietf.org" <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 09:19:32 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Yikes, if I implied that, my apologies. I don't want that at all. I don't want any hierarchies that aren't already baked into the ISO standards.

Karen

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Kent Karlsson [mailto:kent.karlsson14@comhem.se]
>Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 1:08 AM
>To: Broome, Karen; ltru@ietf.org
>Subject: RE: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
>
>Broome, Karen wrote:
>> I thought the primary goal was identification, not fallback.
>> Without extlang, we lose some information the ISO standards
>> otherwise contain.
>
>You seem to be arguing for (in an ideal case) a partial
>language family hierarcy in each tag. Tags like
>
>gem-de (or gem-deu)
>
>or even
>
>und-ine-gem-de-gsw
>
>and the like. Of course that is not possible to introduce, for
>several reasons. I'm just trying to understand your argument.
>As Mark mentioned, the individual language codes do identify
>a language, without explicitly giving any part of the
>hierarchy in the tag.
>
>        /kent k
>


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 29 09:40:29 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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The 630-* ISO standards have a hierachy "baked in", though not
explicitly, until ISO 639-5:2008, Codes for the representation
of names of languages -- Part 5: Alpha-3 code for language families
and groups (which I haven't seen a copy of yet). The hierarchy
is still implicit in parts 1-3 which have collection codes
(part 1 has only, if you pardon the expression, half-hearted
collection codes, zh and ar).

I understand that you do not want tags like gem-deu, but you seem
to want to have tags like zh-yue. For "identification purposes"
(as well as much else) the approach for both those examples seem
to be the same. I'm still just trying to understand your argument.

	/kent k


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 6:20 PM
> To: Kent Karlsson; ltru@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> 
> Yikes, if I implied that, my apologies. I don't want that at 
> all. I don't want any hierarchies that aren't already baked 
> into the ISO standards.
> 
> Karen
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Kent Karlsson [mailto:kent.karlsson14@comhem.se]
> >Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 1:08 AM
> >To: Broome, Karen; ltru@ietf.org
> >Subject: RE: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> >
> >
> >Broome, Karen wrote:
> >> I thought the primary goal was identification, not fallback.
> >> Without extlang, we lose some information the ISO standards
> >> otherwise contain.
> >
> >You seem to be arguing for (in an ideal case) a partial
> >language family hierarcy in each tag. Tags like
> >
> >gem-de (or gem-deu)
> >
> >or even
> >
> >und-ine-gem-de-gsw
> >
> >and the like. Of course that is not possible to introduce, for
> >several reasons. I'm just trying to understand your argument.
> >As Mark mentioned, the individual language codes do identify
> >a language, without explicitly giving any part of the
> >hierarchy in the tag.
> >
> >        /kent k
> >
> 
> 

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From: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 09:42:05 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Mark writes:

>If identification is what you want, then "cmn" IS unambigously
>Mandarin (indeterminate script);

But is "cmn" the tag you will use, Mark?

>The string "zh-yue" is really a different semantic; it is not just
>Cantonese, it is "Cantonese-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-
>indeterminate-script" in lookup (but not some other operations like
>RFC 4646 filtering).

The fallback is *NOT*, I repeat *NOT*, part of the semantic of that tag. ISO defines the semantics of the tags and fallback has nothing to do with identifying languages.

My issue is this: If I look at my real-world language list and the codes I've assigned, I think everyone on this list would agree that the codes I've chosen based on the IANA registry and RFC 4646 are the best tags for that content. I have codes for everything I need today, thanks to the patient guidance of everyone on this list.

However, when RFC 4646bis is released, it seems like I will be using different tags than everyone else on this list and we will no longer agree on what the best tag is. I fear the subtleties in the rules may prove tougher to explain than today's rules which already cause some eyerolling. Considering this, I start to wonder if the release of RFC 4646bis is a step backward or forward. While I'm happy there's a tag for Broome Pearling Lugger Pidgin in ISO 639-3, I don't have any personal need for it.

Regards,

Karen Broome
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli


> If the focus is identification, then the fallback and filtering
> doesn't matter (or must be defined subsequently).

Sorry, but this is not a sensible approach to coding.

By "identification", we're talking about devising a coding scheme that provides code elements used to represent a semantic for the purpose of declaring language identity on information objects, and *also* for use in various kinds of processing on those information objects. If declaring identity was the only purpose, and processing is irrelevant, then all bets are off as to what the best way is to represent identities -- for instance, a URI pointing to some encyclopedic description strikes me as a far better identifier.

Our language tags exist *because* of processing scenarios. Nobody would bother wasting time adding a tag to metadata on information objects if it was just going to _be_, ignored and taking up space.

The coded representation of a semantic category can take any form, and as long as all are equally documented the identificational value of each of those potential forms is exactly equivalent. For instance, "cmn" and "zh-cmn" are exactly equal in terms of identificational value -- meaning "Mandarin". Mark described these as different, but I think the difference he pointed out was one of processing, not one of identity.

If I know the relationship between Mandarin and "Chinese", then I can make exactly the same processing decisions with "cmn" as I can with "zh-cmn". But the two differ wrt what kinds of processing mechanisms are available to me: "cmn" requires that a process have a separate business knowledge relating Mandarin and "Chinese", but "zh-cmn" embeds that knowledge into the tag itself. Since both are the same in terms of their identificational value, the question to be asked is which of these is more useful for processing.

And not just for *this* pair, but for all macrolanguage cases -- unless we're considering using extlang for just certain cases.



> Extlang makes identifying/finding *all* Chinese languages simple,

Note that you have already introduced processing.


> for those that need to do find them all. It would only require
> that you ask for 'zh'. Thus with extlang one could start tagging
> resources spesificly *immediatly*, because it should be highly
> compatible with existing application behaviour.

For applications that use right-truncation matching, but not lookup.


> (Btw, this approach strikes me as higly compatible with another
> popular slogan: Don't break the Web.)

Well, not all servers use right-truncation matching logic, and for those that don't your plan would be breaking the Web. (I'm not saying that the no-extlang path doesn't have some of the same issues; either way, there are things that would need to be done to keep everything working smoothly if we want to transition from a "zh"-only past into a future that includes "cmn"/"yue"/etc.)



Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situation as example
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Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> Since we have the direct testimony of the folks who conceived of
> macrolanguage, I don't see any reason why anyone would believe
> otherwise. 

The very essence of a cover story is that it's direct testimony.
But I do not at all believe that "the wise Havard and the noble
Peter" are deceiving us about their motives.

> One of the problems macrolanguage brings
> us is that it is *not* just a "cover story": ISO 639-3 made an honest
> effort to catalog all macrolanguages, not just the ones that are useful
> to us. 

To be precise, they cataloged the ones that had 639-2 tags already.  There
was no tag for Romanian/Moldovan, and they did not create one.

-- 
John Cowan   <cowan@ccil.org>   http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
One time I called in to the central system and started working on a big
thick 'sed' and 'awk' heavy duty data bashing script.  One of the geologists
came by, looked over my shoulder and said 'Oh, that happens to me too.
Try hanging up and phoning in again.'  --Beverly Erlebacher
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Kent Karlsson scripsit:

> The 630-* ISO standards have a hierachy "baked in", though not
> explicitly, until ISO 639-5:2008, Codes for the representation
> of names of languages -- Part 5: Alpha-3 code for language families
> and groups (which I haven't seen a copy of yet)

The most recent version I know about is two years old, self-confessedly
incomplete, and has 105 code elements, of which 53 are shared with 639-2.
It is not clear why the nine remaining 639-2 collection code elements
(bad, btk, day, ijo, kar, kro, nah, son, znd) do not appear.

> The hierarchy is still implicit in parts 1-3 which have collection
> codes (part 1 has only, if you pardon the expression, half-hearted
> collection codes, zh and ar).

Parts 1 and 3 have macrolanguage and individual language code elements.
Part 2 has language collection and individual language code elements.

> I understand that you do not want tags like gem-deu, but you seem
> to want to have tags like zh-yue. For "identification purposes"
> (as well as much else) the approach for both those examples seem
> to be the same. 

Nobody treats all the Germanic languages as a single language for
any purpose.  Many people treat Chinese as a single language for many
purposes or even for all purposes.

-- 
John Cowan    cowan@ccil.org    http://ccil.org/~cowan
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has seen some strange sights. It has seen Wordsworth drunk and Porson
sober. And here am I, a better poet than Porson, and a better scholar
than Wordsworth, somewhere betwixt and between.  --A.E. Housman
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
>

> Randy Presuhn scripsit:
> 
> > I cannot agree with saying that "de" somehow *is* "standard German".
> 
> Well, no actually extant variety *is* Standard German, strictly speaking:

Violent agreement.

> Standard German (as defined, say, in Duden) doesn't *exactly* match
> anybody's idiolect.  However, what's described there is close enough
> to many other idiolects that we can collectively call them all "de"
> without crossing any mutual-intelligibility barriers.

This seems a slight over-statement.  Consider, for example, regionalisms
in vocabulary.  I don't think it's terribly useful to regard them as loan words
from some other language, even if they happen to be the same in a local
dialect which enjoys a language code of its own.

...
> By being mutually intelligible with it, and therefore in some sense
> part of it. 

Sorry, I just can't make sense of that "in some sense part of it".  "Part of"
to me implies a subset / superset relationship, and what I'm sure we're
talking about is set intersection.  (The extent of that set intersection is a
factor in making mutual intelligibility is possible.)

I'm in complete agreement with the idea of treating the mythical Hochdeutsch
in a manner analogous to a "focal color".  What I have a problem with are
descriptions that lead to readings like "stuff tagged 'de' is Standard German"
rather than "stuff tagged 'de' should be some kind of German which would be
mutually intelligible with Standard German."

Randy

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Peter Constable 2008-05-29 18.53:

>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli
> 
> 
>> If the focus is identification, then the fallback and
>> filtering doesn't matter (or must be defined subsequently).
> 
> Sorry, but this is not a sensible approach to coding.

   [...]

 

Note the "if". And if we try to solve too many issues at once, 
then perhaps we won't solve any thing at all.

> "cmn" requires that a process have a separate business
> knowledge relating Mandarin and "Chinese", but "zh-cmn" embeds
> that knowledge into the tag itself. Since both are the same in
> terms of their identificational value, the question to be asked
> is which of these is more useful for processing. [...]


Who will be more useful - ok. But also: Who will lead to most 
processing/most tagging.

I think that 'cmn' will be perceived as 'oh, now they have decided 
something entirely new'.  We used 'zh' in all these yeaers, and 
now - why 'yue'?

>> Extlang makes identifying/finding *all* Chinese languages
>> simple,
> 
> Note that you have already introduced processing.


I know.

>> for those that need to do find them all. It would only
>> require that you ask for 'zh'. Thus with extlang one could
>> start tagging resources spesificly *immediatly*, because it
>> should be highly compatible with existing application
>> behaviour.
> 
> For applications that use right-truncation matching, but not
> lookup.


It is of course not difficult to per se to add all tags instead of 
just one or two to one's Web browser. But in my experience it is 
difficult to even add more than one. Not to mention how difficult 
it is to get application to ad sensible algoritms so that spesific 
tags does not lead you to loose content.

>> (Btw, this approach strikes me as higly compatible with
>> another popular slogan: Don't break the Web.)
> 
> Well, not all servers use right-truncation matching logic, and
> for those that don't your plan would be breaking the Web. (I'm


It would be interesting to know some Web servers and othe servers 
where it works differently.

> not saying that the no-extlang path doesn't have some of the
> same issues; either way, there are things that would need to be
> done to keep everything working smoothly if we want to
> transition from a "zh"-only past into a future that includes
> "cmn"/"yue"/etc.


But there are no Web browsers today which ask for 'cmn' or 'yue'. 
It is 'zh' they ask for. Hence there is a chance that content 
tagged as 'zh-cmn' will Just Work, today, many places. And 
therefore I view it as a good bit more compatible with existing 
content to go for Extlang.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Hi -

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:51 AM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>

> > One was sent after the deadline.
> 
> If this was my vote (sent yesterday prior to your message),
> your "revised totals" appear wrong, as I voted "A,B".

The summary (with the late response) was sent out before
your much later response.  Including the three late responses
I've seen, it now comes to 
Q1 a-6 b-9 c-4 
Q2 a-8 b-6 c-5

Not the clear-cut result any of us would have liked.
(And for me, having a clear decision is much more important
than the decision itself!)

...
> This is not a situation in which either camp has a totally
> decisive argument up its sleeve.

This has been apparent for many, many months.

> While I think this is the wrong way to go (obviously, as I
> supported removing extlang), some kind of decision is desirable.

Agreed.  However, the recent discussion indicates that the group
doesn't feel much urgency in moving on.  If the decision were
solely up to me, I'd recommend shutting down the working group,
letting the people that care about it fight it out, and then let
them request a BOF at some future IETF meeting when they think
they're ready to resume work as a working group.  (This is
what happened when the SNMPv2 working group missed its charter
deadline by a far, far smaller margin.)

> As co-editor, my immediate concern is how to implement this.
> Assuming that we don't do a new round of voting and persuasion,
> I can hardly restore the text we had prior to removing extlang
> because some serious editing has occurred since then.

Agreed.

> We will need to decide what criteria are used to register and
> maintain extlangs as a result (a problem we were struggling with
> prior to the decision to remove extlang). What will be necessary,
> I think, is a stem-to-stern restore-and-edit pass with the particular
> notes of interest sent to the list. The resulting draft will then
> need to be reviewed by the list.

Sounds reasonable.
 
> If there is some doubt about whether the results of this consensus call
> will hold, I would point out that this might be a useful exercise in
> any event, as we can compare this putative "draft-15" (incorporating
> feedback from the list, of course) to the current draft-14 more directly:
> we can compare each other's cherry picking machines for elegance :-).

:-)  Since we're in "the lesser of the evils" mode, I agree it would be helpful
to work through the devilish details.
 
> Is this the decision, Randy and Martin? Or should we waffle along a bit longer?

Creating such a draft sounds good to me.  Martin, any insights?

Randy

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Leif notes:

>I think that 'cmn' will be perceived as 'oh, now they have decided
>something entirely new'.  We used 'zh' in all these yeaers, and
>now - why 'yue'?

Depends on the context. In my industry, made-up codes are the rule rather than the exception for Mandarin and Cantonese. Having the ability to precisely code the difference in an internationally recognized way is very important to us. Web developers who do not YET deal with video content may not see the importance, but for anyone who classifies audio/video content, the existence of these tags is a relief. I think the reaction from Hollywood is likely, "What took you so long?"

Karen


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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 11:51:42 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Here is a brief description:

   - Map deprecated codes to the canonical codes*. Thus "zh-yue" maps to
   "yue", and identifies Cantonese, "zh-hakka" maps to "hak", and so on.
      - * There are a few exceptions to this where we use the deprecated
      form as the canonical form, for backwards compatibility, eg "iw" for "he".
      - We have yet to decide what to do with codes that are illegal in
      4646, but where the intent is clear, like "zh-yue-Hant-HK"; I
suspect that
      we'll also remap those also, eg "zh-yue-Hant-HK".
      - We don't want to deal with irregular codes, so any that can't be
   resolved by this mapping are disallowed (there is a separate thread on
   that). Luckily in draft 14 there are only a small handful of those.
   - For lookup, use the kind of fallback that Addison outlined, taking into
   account backward compatibility considerations like the fact that "zh-TW" was
   used to represent "zh-Hant".
   - cmn-Hant-TW
      - zh-Hant-TW
      - cmn-Hant
      - zh-Hant
      - cmn-TW
      - zh-TW
      - cmn
      - zh
   - We have fallbacks that are unrelated to macro/micro, like
   Romanian-Moldavian, Filipino-Tagalog, and I'd expect to add to that list
   over time as we support additional languages. Mandarin might be a good
   fallback for, say, Gan; but Spanish might be a better fallback for
   various Quechua encompassed languages. Each case has to be decided on its
   own merits as it comes up: we've found that macrolanguage is not very useful
   for the goal to "give the user what s/he wants/needs".
   - Because extlang brings no benefit and only complications, if BCP 47
   were to adopt it, I suspect we would cease trying to be conformant to BCP 47
   internally.

Mark

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Broome, Karen <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
wrote:

> Mark writes:
>
> >If identification is what you want, then "cmn" IS unambigously
> >Mandarin (indeterminate script);
>
> But is "cmn" the tag you will use, Mark?
>
> >The string "zh-yue" is really a different semantic; it is not just
> >Cantonese, it is "Cantonese-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-
> >indeterminate-script" in lookup (but not some other operations like
> >RFC 4646 filtering).
>
> The fallback is *NOT*, I repeat *NOT*, part of the semantic of that tag.
> ISO defines the semantics of the tags and fallback has nothing to do with
> identifying languages.
>
> My issue is this: If I look at my real-world language list and the codes
> I've assigned, I think everyone on this list would agree that the codes I've
> chosen based on the IANA registry and RFC 4646 are the best tags for that
> content. I have codes for everything I need today, thanks to the patient
> guidance of everyone on this list.
>
> However, when RFC 4646bis is released, it seems like I will be using
> different tags than everyone else on this list and we will no longer agree
> on what the best tag is. I fear the subtleties in the rules may prove
> tougher to explain than today's rules which already cause some eyerolling.
> Considering this, I start to wonder if the release of RFC 4646bis is a step
> backward or forward. While I'm happy there's a tag for Broome Pearling
> Lugger Pidgin in ISO 639-3, I don't have any personal need for it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>



-- 
Mark

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Here is a brief description:<br><div><ul><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Map deprecated codes to the canonical codes*. Thus &quot;zh-yue&quot; maps to &quot;yue&quot;, and identifies Cantonese, &quot;zh-hakka&quot; maps to &quot;hak&quot;, and so on.</span></li>
<ul><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">* There are a few exceptions to this where we use the deprecated form as the canonical form, for backwards compatibility, eg &quot;iw&quot; for &quot;he&quot;.<br>
</span></li></ul><ul><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">We have yet to decide what to do with codes that are illegal in 4646, but where the intent is clear, like &quot;zh-yue-Hant-HK&quot;; I suspect that we&#39;ll also remap those also, eg &quot;zh-yue-Hant-HK&quot;.<br>
</span></li></ul><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">We don&#39;t want to deal with irregular codes, so any t</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">hat can&#39;t be resolved by this mapping are disallowed (there is a separate thread on that). Luckily in draft 14 there are only a small handful of those.</span></li>
<li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">For lookup, use the kind of fallback that Addison outlined, taking into account backward compatibility considerations like the fact that &quot;zh-TW&quot; was used </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">to represent &quot;zh-Hant&quot;.<br>
</span></li><ul><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">cmn-Hant-TW</span></li><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">zh-Hant-TW</span></li><li><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">cmn-Hant</span></li>
<li>zh-Hant</li><li>cmn-TW</li><li>zh-TW</li><li>cmn</li><li>zh</li></ul><li>We have fallbacks that are unrelated to macro/micro, like Romanian-Moldavian, Filipino-Tagalog, and I&#39;d expect to add to that list over time as we support additional languages. Mandarin might be a good fallback for, say, Gan; but Spanish might be a better fallback for various&nbsp;Quechua&nbsp;encompassed&nbsp;languages. Each case has to be decided on its own merits as it comes up: we&#39;ve found that macrolanguage is not very useful for the goal to &quot;give the user what s/he wants/needs&quot;.</li>
<li>Because extlang brings no benefit and only complications, if BCP 47 were to adopt it, I suspect we would cease trying to be conformant to BCP 47 internally.</li></ul><div>Mark</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Broome, Karen &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="Ih2E3d">Mark writes:<br>
<br>
&gt;If identification is what you want, then &quot;cmn&quot; IS unambigously<br>
&gt;Mandarin (indeterminate script);<br>
<br>
</div>But is &quot;cmn&quot; the tag you will use, Mark?<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt;The string &quot;zh-yue&quot; is really a different semantic; it is not just<br>
&gt;Cantonese, it is &quot;Cantonese-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-<br>
&gt;indeterminate-script&quot; in lookup (but not some other operations like<br>
&gt;RFC 4646 filtering).<br>
<br>
</div>The fallback is *NOT*, I repeat *NOT*, part of the semantic of that tag. ISO defines the semantics of the tags and fallback has nothing to do with identifying languages.<br>
<br>
My issue is this: If I look at my real-world language list and the codes I&#39;ve assigned, I think everyone on this list would agree that the codes I&#39;ve chosen based on the IANA registry and RFC 4646 are the best tags for that content. I have codes for everything I need today, thanks to the patient guidance of everyone on this list.<br>

<br>
However, when RFC 4646bis is released, it seems like I will be using different tags than everyone else on this list and we will no longer agree on what the best tag is. I fear the subtleties in the rules may prove tougher to explain than today&#39;s rules which already cause some eyerolling. Considering this, I start to wonder if the release of RFC 4646bis is a step backward or forward. While I&#39;m happy there&#39;s a tag for Broome Pearling Lugger Pidgin in ISO 639-3, I don&#39;t have any personal need for it.<br>

<br>
Regards,<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Karen Broome<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
</div></div>

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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 11:55:22 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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As Karen says, we need the "yue" code, because it is very different than
"cmn", as different as French and Spanish. It would be like having to tag
all Skandinavian content with *"ski" instead of being able to distinguish
"da", "is", ...
Mark

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Broome, Karen <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
wrote:

> Leif notes:
>
> >I think that 'cmn' will be perceived as 'oh, now they have decided
> >something entirely new'.  We used 'zh' in all these yeaers, and
> >now - why 'yue'?
>
> Depends on the context. In my industry, made-up codes are the rule rather
> than the exception for Mandarin and Cantonese. Having the ability to
> precisely code the difference in an internationally recognized way is very
> important to us. Web developers who do not YET deal with video content may
> not see the importance, but for anyone who classifies audio/video content,
> the existence of these tags is a relief. I think the reaction from Hollywood
> is likely, "What took you so long?"
>
> Karen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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-- 
Mark

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As Karen says, we need the &quot;yue&quot; code, because it is very different than &quot;cmn&quot;, as different as French and Spanish. It would be like having to tag all Skandinavian content with *&quot;ski&quot; instead of being able to distinguish &quot;da&quot;, &quot;is&quot;, ...<div>
<br></div><div>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Broome, Karen &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Leif notes:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt;I think that &#39;cmn&#39; will be perceived as &#39;oh, now they have decided<br>
&gt;something entirely new&#39;. &nbsp;We used &#39;zh&#39; in all these yeaers, and<br>
&gt;now - why &#39;yue&#39;?<br>
<br>
</div>Depends on the context. In my industry, made-up codes are the rule rather than the exception for Mandarin and Cantonese. Having the ability to precisely code the difference in an internationally recognized way is very important to us. Web developers who do not YET deal with video content may not see the importance, but for anyone who classifies audio/video content, the existence of these tags is a relief. I think the reaction from Hollywood is likely, &quot;What took you so long?&quot;<br>

<font color="#888888"><br>
Karen<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
 Extlang. The Sami language situation as example
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-29 17.46:

>> I'm one of apparently few people who truly believe the ISO
>> 639-3/RA definition of "macrolanguage," and don't think of it
>> as some kind of cover story.
> 
> Since we have the direct testimony of the folks who conceived
> of macrolanguage, I don't see any reason why anyone would
> believe otherwise. What we have been debating is whether the
> Macrolanguage concept is of use in the structure of "our"
> language tags, and, if so, how (rather than the reverse).


It does anyhow seem as if those who support extlang consider the 
Macrolanguage information generally relevant, while the other 
group is more sceptical about how relevant that information is.

> One of the problems macrolanguage brings us is that it is *not*
> just a "cover story": ISO 639-3 made an honest effort to 
> catalog all macrolanguages, not just the ones that are useful 
> to us. As a result, we have Norwegian, Serbo-Croatian, and some
>  others that do not play well with extlangs (and we have other 
> languages, such as 'zh', that complicate life without extlang).


Regarding "useful": The entire macrolanguage catalog is useful, 
not only that part which encompasses languages which can be tagged 
with extlang. The RFC must give advice for both groups of 
macrolanguages.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
 Extlang. The Sami language situation as example
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-29 17.46:

>> I'm one of apparently few people who truly believe the ISO
>> 639-3/RA definition of "macrolanguage," and don't think of it
>> as some kind of cover story.
> 
> Since we have the direct testimony of the folks who conceived
> of macrolanguage, I don't see any reason why anyone would
> believe otherwise. What we have been debating is whether the
> Macrolanguage concept is of use in the structure of "our"
> language tags, and, if so, how (rather than the reverse).


Those in favour of extlang seem to consider the Macrolanguage 
information generally relevant, while the other group is more 
sceptical about how relevant that information is.

> One of the problems macrolanguage brings us is that it is *not*
> just a "cover story": ISO 639-3 made an honest effort to 
> catalog all macrolanguages, not just the ones that are useful 
> to us. As a result, we have Norwegian, Serbo-Croatian, and some
>  others that do not play well with extlangs (and we have other 
> languages, such as 'zh', that complicate life without extlang).


Regarding "useful": The entire macrolanguage catalog is useful, 
not only that part which encompasses languages which can be tagged 
with extlang. The RFC must give advice for both groups of 
macrolanguages.
-- 
leif halvard silli
_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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I'm sorry if it was possible to think that I said that one do not 
need to distinguish Mandarin and Cantonese.

Mark Davis 2008-05-29 20.55:

> As Karen says, we need the "yue" code, because it is very different than
> "cmn", as different as French and Spanish. It would be like having to tag
> all Skandinavian content with *"ski" instead of being able to distinguish
> "da", "is", ...
> Mark
> 
> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Broome, Karen <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Leif notes:
>>
>> >I think that 'cmn' will be perceived as 'oh, now they have decided
>> >something entirely new'.  We used 'zh' in all these yeaers, and
>> >now - why 'yue'?
>>
>> Depends on the context. In my industry, made-up codes are the rule rather
>> than the exception for Mandarin and Cantonese. Having the ability to
>> precisely code the difference in an internationally recognized way is very
>> important to us. Web developers who do not YET deal with video content may
>> not see the importance, but for anyone who classifies audio/video content,
>> the existence of these tags is a relief. I think the reaction from Hollywood
>> is likely, "What took you so long?"

-- 
leif halvard silli
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Thread-Topic: a modest proposal...
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Since:

1. We appear to be stuck.
2. We (most of us, anyway) would like to see this work completed.
3. We haven't a compelling-enough technical argument that resolves the issue.

I would like to submit a "modest proposal" for addressing the impasse:

1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF.
2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all encompassed languages, which information may be use by implementations however makes the most sense.
3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name of compatibility alone. 4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language' production as atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated as if it were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags, notably by existing implementations). Note that the 'language' production is the one that includes both the primary and extended language subtags.

Thoughts?

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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(laughing) Well, one is put in mind of Lilliputian disputes over eggs.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Misha Wolf [mailto:Misha.Wolf@thomsonreuters.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:43 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>
> I'm relieved to see that you are not asking us to eat our children.
>
> Misha
>

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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 29 12:53:55 2008
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>, LTRU Working Group
	<ltru@ietf.org>
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I would either like that, or the same thing, except where cmn and yue are allowed as aliases of zh-cmn & zh-yue

- Shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phillips, Addison
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:38 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: [Ltru] a modest proposal...

Since:

1. We appear to be stuck.
2. We (most of us, anyway) would like to see this work completed.
3. We haven't a compelling-enough technical argument that resolves the issue.

I would like to submit a "modest proposal" for addressing the impasse:

1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF.
2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all encompassed languages, which information may be use by implementations however makes the most sense.
3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name of compatibility alone. 4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language' production as atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated as if it were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags, notably by existing implementations). Note that the 'language' production is the one that includes both the primary and extended language subtags.

Thoughts?

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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I'm relieved to see that you are not asking us to eat our children.

Misha


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 29 13:05:21 2008
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:38 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>

> Since:
> 
> 1. We appear to be stuck.
> 2. We (most of us, anyway) would like to see this work completed.
> 3. We haven't a compelling-enough technical argument that resolves the issue.
> 
> I would like to submit a "modest proposal" for addressing the impasse:
> 
> 1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF.
> 2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all encompassed
> languages, which information may be use by implementations however makes the most sense.
> 3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed
> languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name of
> compatibility alone.

So far, this seems very reasonable.

> 4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language'
> production as atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated as
> if it were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags,
> notably by existing implementations). Note that the 'language' production
> is the one that includes both the primary and extended language subtags.

I'd rather not put this in 4646bis.  If it's necessary to talk about this
kind of thing at all, it would belong in an update to the matching RFC.

Randy

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> > 4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language'
> > production as atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated
> as
> > if it were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags,
> > notably by existing implementations). Note that the 'language'
> production
> > is the one that includes both the primary and extended language
> subtags.
>
> I'd rather not put this in 4646bis.  If it's necessary to talk about
> this
> kind of thing at all, it would belong in an update to the matching RFC.
>

I tend to agree. The main thing I'm doing here is pointing out the ramifications of doing this. I would assume that some text in the "Choice" and "extlang" sections would spell out why these languages were treated specially and what using the extended language subtag would mean.

Addison
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
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Shawn Steele scripsit:

> I would either like that, or the same thing, except where cmn and yue
> are allowed as aliases of zh-cmn & zh-yue

We have a long-standing rule of reason that says no two subtags mean
the same thing unless at least one of them is deprecated.  I'd be
reluctant to break that for the sake of supposed processing advantages,
since part of the Tao of the Internet is that the publisher never quite
knows how the reader will use the published text (or metadata).

-- 
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org   http://ccil.org/~cowan
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Leif Halvard Silli

> It does anyhow seem as if those who support extlang consider the
> Macrolanguage information generally relevant, while the other
> group is more sceptical about how relevant that information is.

Well, what I find striking is that the *only* cases involving macrolanguages that are getting discussed are:

- Chinese

- Norwegian: this has also been mentioned by you, but since "no" has been deprecated in ISO 639 for many years now, and introducing "no-nb"/"no-nn" or "no-nob"/"no-nno" would certainly but be compatible with existing usage.

- Arabic: this has been cited in some examples, but I don't hear anyone sounding eager to use extlang subtags with ar.

- Don Osborne has several times over the past couple of years mentioned interest in the macrolanguage concept wrt African languages because of (IIUC) trends toward evolution of varieties used for wider communication. But it's not clear to me that macrolanguage is the appropriate concept there, as opposed to a distinct, individual language, and even if these are considered macrolanguages I don't see requests to have extlang for these cases: if anything, the emerging variety used in wider communication makes the local varieties *less* relevant for tagging purposes, not more.

So, there is really *only* one case that people seem to care about (at least, in the near term -- who knows what may happen with Bikol or Zapotec in the future) and that would really be impacted by our current decision, and that's Chinese.

(As much as people don't want to cherry pick arbitrarily, it seems to me that there is an elephant in this room that we're trying to say is no different from the rest of the furniture.)



Peter
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Two of Jonathan Swift's works cited back to back on this list. It's good for us a satirist of his stature isn't observing. (Or maybe there is one waiting with work in progress that will leave us all terribly embarrassed.)

Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Phillips, Addison
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:49 PM
> To: Misha Wolf; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>
> (laughing) Well, one is put in mind of Lilliputian disputes over eggs.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Misha Wolf [mailto:Misha.Wolf@thomsonreuters.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:43 PM
> > To: Phillips, Addison; LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
> >
> > I'm relieved to see that you are not asking us to eat our children.
> >
> > Misha
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
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Mark,

What is the shortest ISO 639 code for Mandarin?

Karen

>-----Original Message-----
>From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
>[mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 11:52 AM
>To: Broome, Karen
>Cc: ltru@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
>Here is a brief description:
>
>
>*      Map deprecated codes to the canonical codes*. Thus "zh-yue"
>maps to "yue", and identifies Cantonese, "zh-hakka" maps to "hak",
>and so on.
>
>       *       * There are a few exceptions to this where we use the
>deprecated form as the canonical form, for backwards compatibility,
>eg "iw" for "he".
>
>
>       *       We have yet to decide what to do with codes that are
>illegal in 4646, but where the intent is clear, like "zh-yue-Hant-
>HK"; I suspect that we'll also remap those also, eg "zh-yue-Hant-
>HK".
>
>
>*      We don't want to deal with irregular codes, so any that can't
>be resolved by this mapping are disallowed (there is a separate
>thread on that). Luckily in draft 14 there are only a small handful
>of those.
>*      For lookup, use the kind of fallback that Addison outlined,
>taking into account backward compatibility considerations like the
>fact that "zh-TW" was used to represent "zh-Hant".
>
>
>       *       cmn-Hant-TW
>       *       zh-Hant-TW
>       *       cmn-Hant
>       *       zh-Hant
>       *       cmn-TW
>       *       zh-TW
>       *       cmn
>       *       zh
>
>*      We have fallbacks that are unrelated to macro/micro, like
>Romanian-Moldavian, Filipino-Tagalog, and I'd expect to add to that
>list over time as we support additional languages. Mandarin might be
>a good fallback for, say, Gan; but Spanish might be a better
>fallback for various Quechua encompassed languages. Each case has to
>be decided on its own merits as it comes up: we've found that
>macrolanguage is not very useful for the goal to "give the user what
>s/he wants/needs".
>*      Because extlang brings no benefit and only complications, if
>BCP 47 were to adopt it, I suspect we would cease trying to be
>conformant to BCP 47 internally.
>
>Mark
>
>On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Broome, Karen
><Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com> wrote:
>
>
>       Mark writes:
>
>       >If identification is what you want, then "cmn" IS
>unambigously
>       >Mandarin (indeterminate script);
>
>
>       But is "cmn" the tag you will use, Mark?
>
>
>       >The string "zh-yue" is really a different semantic; it is not
>just
>       >Cantonese, it is "Cantonese-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-
>Chinese-of-
>       >indeterminate-script" in lookup (but not some other
>operations like
>       >RFC 4646 filtering).
>
>
>       The fallback is *NOT*, I repeat *NOT*, part of the semantic of
>that tag. ISO defines the semantics of the tags and fallback has
>nothing to do with identifying languages.
>
>       My issue is this: If I look at my real-world language list and
>the codes I've assigned, I think everyone on this list would agree
>that the codes I've chosen based on the IANA registry and RFC 4646
>are the best tags for that content. I have codes for everything I
>need today, thanks to the patient guidance of everyone on this list.
>
>       However, when RFC 4646bis is released, it seems like I will be
>using different tags than everyone else on this list and we will no
>longer agree on what the best tag is. I fear the subtleties in the
>rules may prove tougher to explain than today's rules which already
>cause some eyerolling. Considering this, I start to wonder if the
>release of RFC 4646bis is a step backward or forward. While I'm
>happy there's a tag for Broome Pearling Lugger Pidgin in ISO 639-3,
>I don't have any personal need for it.
>
>       Regards,
>
>       Karen Broome
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>Mark
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 29 13:29:16 2008
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 13:28:34 -0700
Thread-Topic: a modest proposal...
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It's a proposal that (whether with or without Shawn's variation) might be just the right compromise. (See my comments in another mail I just posted.)

We would still need to have text giving clear guidance on how to tag for Chinese.


Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Shawn Steele
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:54 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>
> I would either like that, or the same thing, except where cmn and yue
> are allowed as aliases of zh-cmn & zh-yue
>
> - Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Phillips, Addison
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:38 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>
> Since:
>
> 1. We appear to be stuck.
> 2. We (most of us, anyway) would like to see this work completed.
> 3. We haven't a compelling-enough technical argument that resolves the
> issue.
>
> I would like to submit a "modest proposal" for addressing the impasse:
>
> 1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF.
> 2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all encompassed
> languages, which information may be use by implementations however
> makes the most sense.
> 3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed
> languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name of
> compatibility alone. 4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language'
> production as atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated as
> if it were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags,
> notably by existing implementations). Note that the 'language'
> production is the one that includes both the primary and extended
> language subtags.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situation as example
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Peter Constable scripsit:

> Well, what I find striking is that the *only* cases involving
> macrolanguages that are getting discussed are:

[snipped Chinese, Norwegian, Arabic, African languages]

You and I, at least, have also discussed the various macrolanguages in
Figure 8, the "Big Blue and the N dwarfs" cases.

The list has also talked of "sgn" extensively in the past: although it
is not a 639-3 macrolanguage, the plan was to treat it as one.

> So, there is really *only* one case that people seem to care about
> (at least, in the near term -- who knows what may happen with Bikol
> or Zapotec in the future) and that would really be impacted by our
> current decision, and that's Chinese.

Certainly, deprecating "zh-*" and "sgn-*" would have the greatest impact
on backward compatibility, although in both cases the exact details
of the whole tag would differ:  from "zh-xiang" to "zh-hsn", and from
"sgn-US" to the structurally different "sgn-ase".

> (As much as people don't want to cherry pick arbitrarily, it seems to
> me that there is an elephant in this room that we're trying to say is
> no different from the rest of the furniture.)

It's not, unless you are in the kitchen or the bathroom.  They are all
stator machines whose main function is to resist gravity.  (See the
Heinlein story "Waldo, Inc.")

-- 
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org    http://ccil.org/~cowan
Big as a house, much bigger than a house, it looked to [Sam], a grey-clad
moving hill.  Fear and wonder, maybe, enlarged him in the hobbit's eyes,
but the Mumak of Harad was indeed a beast of vast bulk, and the like of him
does not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live still in latter days are
but memories of his girth and his majesty.  --"Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit"
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 29 13:37:46 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
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Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> 1. Restore a *single* [level of] extlang to the ABNF.
> 2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all encompassed
> languages, which information may be use by implementations however
> makes the most sense.

+1 to both.

> 3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed
> languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name of
> compatibility alone.

I'd cherry-pick 'zh' and 'sgn' but not 'ar'.

> 4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language'
> production as atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated as
> if it were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags,
> notably by existing implementations). Note that the 'language'
> production is the one that includes both the primary and extended
> language subtags.

I'd be okay with a motherhood note, but if this is to affect matching
it needs to go into 4647bis, and would cause 4647 to diverge from 2616.

-- 
"Well, I'm back."  --Sam        John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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I think this proposal may make the guidance task worse.

Karen

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>Of Peter Constable
>Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 1:29 PM
>To: LTRU Working Group
>Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>
>It's a proposal that (whether with or without Shawn's variation)
>might be just the right compromise. (See my comments in another mail
>I just posted.)
>
>We would still need to have text giving clear guidance on how to tag
>for Chinese.
>
>
>Peter
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
>Behalf Of
>> Shawn Steele
>> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:54 PM
>> To: Phillips, Addison; LTRU Working Group
>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>>
>> I would either like that, or the same thing, except where cmn and
>yue
>> are allowed as aliases of zh-cmn & zh-yue
>>
>> - Shawn
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
>Behalf Of
>> Phillips, Addison
>> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:38 PM
>> To: LTRU Working Group
>> Subject: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>>
>> Since:
>>
>> 1. We appear to be stuck.
>> 2. We (most of us, anyway) would like to see this work completed.
>> 3. We haven't a compelling-enough technical argument that resolves
>the
>> issue.
>>
>> I would like to submit a "modest proposal" for addressing the
>impasse:
>>
>> 1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF.
>> 2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all
>encompassed
>> languages, which information may be use by implementations however
>> makes the most sense.
>> 3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed
>> languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name
>of
>> compatibility alone. 4. Permit implementations to treat the
>'language'
>> production as atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be
>treated as
>> if it were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags,
>> notably by existing implementations). Note that the 'language'
>> production is the one that includes both the primary and extended
>> language subtags.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Addison
>>
>> Addison Phillips
>> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>>
>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>> It is an architecture.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>_______________________________________________
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 13:52:53 -0700
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>
> > 3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed
> > languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name of
> > compatibility alone.
>
> I'd cherry-pick 'zh' and 'sgn' but not 'ar'.

Really? 'sgn'?

>
> I'd be okay with a motherhood note, but if this is to affect matching
> it needs to go into 4647bis, and would cause 4647 to diverge from 2616.
>

That's what I had in mind. Note that 4647 would not necessarily diverge from 2616. It could be done as a note in Lookup, for example and 2616 doesn't do Lookup.

Addison
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 29 14:00:32 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> I'm in complete agreement with the idea of treating the mythical Hochdeutsch
> in a manner analogous to a "focal color".  What I have a problem with are
> descriptions that lead to readings like "stuff tagged 'de' is Standard German"
> rather than "stuff tagged 'de' should be some kind of German which would be
> mutually intelligible with Standard German."

Okay, then we disagree on what "is" is.  When I say "'de' is Standard
German", mentally translate that to "'de' denotes the cluster of varieties
mutually intelligible (etc. etc.) with Standard German."  Similarly, "'en'
is English" means that 'en' denotes the varities mutually intelligible
with, say, Peter Constable's (Canadian) English.  Hey, it's better than
Mandarin, which routinely tolerates sentences like "I am [the one who
ordered] ice cream" and "She is also [a case of someone married to]
an American husband."  (Li & Thompson)

("_A Course In Phonetics_ explains everything about phonetics except
how to pronounce 'Ladefoged'.")

-- 
Time alone is real                      John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
  the rest imaginary
like a quaternion       --phma          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> Really? 'sgn'?

See my post responding to Peter.  I"d rather deprecate "sgn-US" to
"sgn-ase" rather than just "ase".

> That's what I had in mind. Note that 4647 would not necessarily diverge
> from 2616. It could be done as a note in Lookup, for example and 2616
> doesn't do Lookup.

True, but then it would deviate from how lookup is actually implemented
in various places, like JVM resource bundles and Apache (when filtering
fails).

-- 
Go, and never darken my towels again!           John Cowan
        --Rufus T. Firefly                      http://ccil.org/~cowan
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> See my post responding to Peter.  I"d rather deprecate "sgn-US" to
> "sgn-ase" rather than just "ase".

Noted.

> True, but then it would deviate from how lookup is actually implemented
> in various places, like JVM resource bundles and Apache (when filtering
> fails).

Mmm.... maybe. But JVMs don't even do the current BCP 47 (well, most people's don't... they can be made to, at least with the most modern JVMs :-) ). Note too that I said originally that they MAY treat the primary-extlang sequence as atomic, not that it is required. Creating a new algorithm ("Extended Lookup"?) might be preferable to altering an exiting algorithm.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 2:02 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison
> Cc: John Cowan; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>
> Phillips, Addison scripsit:
>
> > Really? 'sgn'?
>
>
> > That's what I had in mind. Note that 4647 would not necessarily
> diverge
> > from 2616. It could be done as a note in Lookup, for example and 2616
> > doesn't do Lookup.
>
>
> --
> Go, and never darken my towels again!           John Cowan
>         --Rufus T. Firefly                      http://ccil.org/~cowan
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
 Extlang. The Sami language situation as example
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Peter Constable 2008-05-29 22.18:

> "no" has been deprecated in ISO 639 for many years now,


This was news to me. Perhaps you are wrong on this? I don't find 
it logical.
-- 
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>, Peter Constable
	<petercon@microsoft.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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> I think this proposal may make the guidance task worse.

Are you really saying that Quechua, Cree, Zapotec, Konkani, Malay, Swahili and the rest somehow make Chinese tagging guidance *easier*? I'm totally mystified now about what you think would work.

Guidance under this plan for tagging Chinese could be very straightforward. Perhaps:

--
When selecting a tag for a Chinese language, that tag SHOULD always use the specific extended language subtag. For example, tag Mandarin Chinese content with a tag starting with "zh-cmn", adding any necessary additional subtags for script, region, or variant as appropriate. If the specific variety of Chinese is not known or is not important to the content, the primary language subtag 'zh' MAY be used without an extended language subtag to form the complete tag.
--


Addison


Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Broome, Karen
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 1:39 PM
> To: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>
> I think this proposal may make the guidance task worse.
>
> Karen
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> >Of Peter Constable
> >Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 1:29 PM
> >To: LTRU Working Group
> >Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
> >
> >It's a proposal that (whether with or without Shawn's variation)
> >might be just the right compromise. (See my comments in another mail
> >I just posted.)
> >
> >We would still need to have text giving clear guidance on how to tag
> >for Chinese.
> >
> >
> >Peter
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >Behalf Of
> >> Shawn Steele
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:54 PM
> >> To: Phillips, Addison; LTRU Working Group
> >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
> >>
> >> I would either like that, or the same thing, except where cmn and
> >yue
> >> are allowed as aliases of zh-cmn & zh-yue
> >>
> >> - Shawn
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >Behalf Of
> >> Phillips, Addison
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:38 PM
> >> To: LTRU Working Group
> >> Subject: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
> >>
> >> Since:
> >>
> >> 1. We appear to be stuck.
> >> 2. We (most of us, anyway) would like to see this work completed.
> >> 3. We haven't a compelling-enough technical argument that resolves
> >the
> >> issue.
> >>
> >> I would like to submit a "modest proposal" for addressing the
> >impasse:
> >>
> >> 1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF.
> >> 2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all
> >encompassed
> >> languages, which information may be use by implementations however
> >> makes the most sense.
> >> 3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed
> >> languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name
> >of
> >> compatibility alone. 4. Permit implementations to treat the
> >'language'
> >> production as atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be
> >treated as
> >> if it were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags,
> >> notably by existing implementations). Note that the 'language'
> >> production is the one that includes both the primary and extended
> >> language subtags.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> Addison
> >>
> >> Addison Phillips
> >> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> >>
> >> Internationalization is not a feature.
> >> It is an architecture.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ltru mailing list
> >> Ltru@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ltru mailing list
> >> Ltru@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >_______________________________________________
> >Ltru mailing list
> >Ltru@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 29 14:31:13 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"?
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John elaborates:=0A> Okay, then we disagree on what "is" is. When I say "'d=
e' is=A0 Standard German", mentally translate that to "'de' denotes=A0 the =
cluster of varieties mutually intelligible (etc. etc.)=A0 with Standard Ger=
man." Similarly, "'en' =A0is English" means that 'en' denotes the varities =
mutually=A0intelligible with, say, Peter Constable's (Canadian) English.=A0=
 =0AHey, it's better than Mandarin, which routinely tolerates=A0=A0sentence=
s like "I am [the one who ordered] ice cream" and=A0 "She is also [a case o=
f someone married to] an American=A0 husband." (Li & Thompson)=0ATex wonder=
s and ducks:=0AWhere does a Berliner's=A0"I am (a) jelly donut" fit in this=
 model?=0Atex=0A=0A=0A      
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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<P></P>
<P>John elaborates:</P>
<P>&gt; Okay, then we disagree on what "is" is. When I say "'de' is&nbsp; Standard German", mentally translate that to "'de' denotes&nbsp; the cluster of varieties mutually intelligible (etc. etc.)&nbsp; with Standard German." Similarly, "'en' &nbsp;is English" means that 'en' denotes the varities mutually&nbsp;intelligible with, say, Peter Constable's (Canadian) English.&nbsp; </P>
<P>Hey, it's better than Mandarin, which routinely tolerates&nbsp;&nbsp;sentences like "I am [the one who ordered] ice cream" and&nbsp; "She is also [a case of someone married to] an American&nbsp; husband." (Li &amp; Thompson)</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Tex wonders and ducks:</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Where does a Berliner's&nbsp;"I am (a) jelly donut" fit in this model?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>tex</P></FONT></DIV></div><br>

      </body></html>
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--===============1859829308==--


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Randy wrote:

> Agreed.  However, the recent discussion indicates that the
> group doesn't feel much urgency in moving on.  If the
> decision were solely up to me, I'd recommend shutting down
> the working group, letting the people that care about it
> fight it out, and then let them request a BOF at some future
> IETF meeting when they think they're ready to resume work as
> a working group.  (This is what happened when the SNMPv2
> working group missed its charter deadline by a far, far
> smaller margin.)

I think this would be a huge mistake.  It is very very important to make ISO
639-3 available within the LSR as soon as possible.  However, as I have
stated before, after this length of time it is important that we 'please' as
many end users as possible whilst bearing in mind that we are discussing
some of the worlds most spoken languages and their historical codes.

On the 27/5/2008 the following message was posted:

Mark wrote:
> > we should consider each of the applications of language tags:
> > identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and
> be able to
> > have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits
>
Peter wrote in response:
> I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully*
> reasoned judgment, pausing to make sure the arguments
> presented really do stand up.

Debbie wrote in response:
>I think this is probably a good way forward.  It would be best to
>start a new thread for each application.  I would also add
>backward compatibility and historical usage to the pot.

I would ask the co-chairs to guide the WG in this direction and to advise
the WG that any other threads will be considered as temporarily off topic
until the extlang/no extlang issue is resolved.

Somebody may have already posted a similar request but I have not had time
to read the avalanche of mail this evening. We really need the WG to focus
now.

Best regards

Debbie



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: 29 May 2008 19:48
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
> Hi -
>
> > From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> > To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working
> > Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:51 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> >
>
> > > One was sent after the deadline.
> >
> > If this was my vote (sent yesterday prior to your message), your
> > "revised totals" appear wrong, as I voted "A,B".
>
> The summary (with the late response) was sent out before your
> much later response.  Including the three late responses I've
> seen, it now comes to
> Q1 a-6 b-9 c-4
> Q2 a-8 b-6 c-5
>
> Not the clear-cut result any of us would have liked.
> (And for me, having a clear decision is much more important
> than the decision itself!)
>
> ...
> > This is not a situation in which either camp has a totally decisive
> > argument up its sleeve.
>
> This has been apparent for many, many months.
>
> > While I think this is the wrong way to go (obviously, as I
> supported
> > removing extlang), some kind of decision is desirable.
>
> Agreed.  However, the recent discussion indicates that the
> group doesn't feel much urgency in moving on.  If the
> decision were solely up to me, I'd recommend shutting down
> the working group, letting the people that care about it
> fight it out, and then let them request a BOF at some future
> IETF meeting when they think they're ready to resume work as
> a working group.  (This is what happened when the SNMPv2
> working group missed its charter deadline by a far, far
> smaller margin.)
>
> > As co-editor, my immediate concern is how to implement this.
> > Assuming that we don't do a new round of voting and
> persuasion, I can
> > hardly restore the text we had prior to removing extlang
> because some
> > serious editing has occurred since then.
>
> Agreed.
>
> > We will need to decide what criteria are used to register
> and maintain
> > extlangs as a result (a problem we were struggling with
> prior to the
> > decision to remove extlang). What will be necessary, I think, is a
> > stem-to-stern restore-and-edit pass with the particular notes of
> > interest sent to the list. The resulting draft will then need to be
> > reviewed by the list.
>
> Sounds reasonable.
>
> > If there is some doubt about whether the results of this consensus
> > call will hold, I would point out that this might be a
> useful exercise
> > in any event, as we can compare this putative "draft-15"
> > (incorporating feedback from the list, of course) to the
> current draft-14 more directly:
> > we can compare each other's cherry picking machines for
> elegance :-).
>
> :-)  Since we're in "the lesser of the evils" mode, I agree
> it would be helpful to work through the devilish details.
>
> > Is this the decision, Randy and Martin? Or should we waffle
> along a bit longer?
>
> Creating such a draft sounds good to me.  Martin, any insights?
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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What would be useful is to hear from the extlangistas what their concerns
are specifically; many have not given reasons for favoring encompassed
languages into extlang instead of into the primary language subtag. It would
be useful for them to give the scenarios where they think extlang is an
improvement. It would be useful to find out why they think the scenarios
such as in http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dfqr8rd5_676kxxxjhd&hl=en are
not a problem.
Clearly people think that using the extlang model solves more problems than
it causes, so it would be useful to example specific cases and see if that
is, in fact, true.

Mark

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
wrote:

> Randy wrote:
>
> > Agreed.  However, the recent discussion indicates that the
> > group doesn't feel much urgency in moving on.  If the
> > decision were solely up to me, I'd recommend shutting down
> > the working group, letting the people that care about it
> > fight it out, and then let them request a BOF at some future
> > IETF meeting when they think they're ready to resume work as
> > a working group.  (This is what happened when the SNMPv2
> > working group missed its charter deadline by a far, far
> > smaller margin.)
>
> I think this would be a huge mistake.  It is very very important to make
> ISO
> 639-3 available within the LSR as soon as possible.  However, as I have
> stated before, after this length of time it is important that we 'please'
> as
> many end users as possible whilst bearing in mind that we are discussing
> some of the worlds most spoken languages and their historical codes.
>
> On the 27/5/2008 the following message was posted:
>
> Mark wrote:
> > > we should consider each of the applications of language tags:
> > > identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and
> > be able to
> > > have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits
> >
> Peter wrote in response:
> > I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully*
> > reasoned judgment, pausing to make sure the arguments
> > presented really do stand up.
>
> Debbie wrote in response:
> >I think this is probably a good way forward.  It would be best to
> >start a new thread for each application.  I would also add
> >backward compatibility and historical usage to the pot.
>
> I would ask the co-chairs to guide the WG in this direction and to advise
> the WG that any other threads will be considered as temporarily off topic
> until the extlang/no extlang issue is resolved.
>
> Somebody may have already posted a similar request but I have not had time
> to read the avalanche of mail this evening. We really need the WG to focus
> now.
>
> Best regards
>
> Debbie
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> > Sent: 29 May 2008 19:48
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> >
> > Hi -
> >
> > > From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> > > To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working
> > > Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:51 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> > >
> >
> > > > One was sent after the deadline.
> > >
> > > If this was my vote (sent yesterday prior to your message), your
> > > "revised totals" appear wrong, as I voted "A,B".
> >
> > The summary (with the late response) was sent out before your
> > much later response.  Including the three late responses I've
> > seen, it now comes to
> > Q1 a-6 b-9 c-4
> > Q2 a-8 b-6 c-5
> >
> > Not the clear-cut result any of us would have liked.
> > (And for me, having a clear decision is much more important
> > than the decision itself!)
> >
> > ...
> > > This is not a situation in which either camp has a totally decisive
> > > argument up its sleeve.
> >
> > This has been apparent for many, many months.
> >
> > > While I think this is the wrong way to go (obviously, as I
> > supported
> > > removing extlang), some kind of decision is desirable.
> >
> > Agreed.  However, the recent discussion indicates that the
> > group doesn't feel much urgency in moving on.  If the
> > decision were solely up to me, I'd recommend shutting down
> > the working group, letting the people that care about it
> > fight it out, and then let them request a BOF at some future
> > IETF meeting when they think they're ready to resume work as
> > a working group.  (This is what happened when the SNMPv2
> > working group missed its charter deadline by a far, far
> > smaller margin.)
> >
> > > As co-editor, my immediate concern is how to implement this.
> > > Assuming that we don't do a new round of voting and
> > persuasion, I can
> > > hardly restore the text we had prior to removing extlang
> > because some
> > > serious editing has occurred since then.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > > We will need to decide what criteria are used to register
> > and maintain
> > > extlangs as a result (a problem we were struggling with
> > prior to the
> > > decision to remove extlang). What will be necessary, I think, is a
> > > stem-to-stern restore-and-edit pass with the particular notes of
> > > interest sent to the list. The resulting draft will then need to be
> > > reviewed by the list.
> >
> > Sounds reasonable.
> >
> > > If there is some doubt about whether the results of this consensus
> > > call will hold, I would point out that this might be a
> > useful exercise
> > > in any event, as we can compare this putative "draft-15"
> > > (incorporating feedback from the list, of course) to the
> > current draft-14 more directly:
> > > we can compare each other's cherry picking machines for
> > elegance :-).
> >
> > :-)  Since we're in "the lesser of the evils" mode, I agree
> > it would be helpful to work through the devilish details.
> >
> > > Is this the decision, Randy and Martin? Or should we waffle
> > along a bit longer?
> >
> > Creating such a draft sounds good to me.  Martin, any insights?
> >
> > Randy
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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What would be useful is to hear from the extlangistas what their concerns are specifically; many have not given reasons for favoring encompassed languages into extlang instead of into the primary language subtag. It would be useful for them to give the scenarios where they think extlang is an improvement. It would be useful to find out why they think the scenarios such as in&nbsp;<span style="font-size:12px;white-space:pre"><a href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dfqr8rd5_676kxxxjhd&amp;hl=en" target="_blank">http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dfqr8rd5_676kxxxjhd&amp;hl=en </a></span>are not a problem.<div>
<br></div><div>Clearly people think that using the extlang model solves more problems than it causes, so it would be useful to example specific cases and see if that is, in fact, true.<br><div><br></div><div>Mark<br><div>

<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Debbie Garside &lt;<a href="mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" target="_blank">debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div>Randy wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Agreed. &nbsp;However, the recent discussion indicates that the<br>
&gt; group doesn&#39;t feel much urgency in moving on. &nbsp;If the<br>
&gt; decision were solely up to me, I&#39;d recommend shutting down<br>
&gt; the working group, letting the people that care about it<br>
&gt; fight it out, and then let them request a BOF at some future<br>
&gt; IETF meeting when they think they&#39;re ready to resume work as<br>
&gt; a working group. &nbsp;(This is what happened when the SNMPv2<br>
&gt; working group missed its charter deadline by a far, far<br>
&gt; smaller margin.)<br>
<br>
</div>I think this would be a huge mistake. &nbsp;It is very very important to make ISO<br>
639-3 available within the LSR as soon as possible. &nbsp;However, as I have<br>
stated before, after this length of time it is important that we &#39;please&#39; as<br>
many end users as possible whilst bearing in mind that we are discussing<br>
some of the worlds most spoken languages and their historical codes.<br>
<br>
On the 27/5/2008 the following message was posted:<br>
<br>
Mark wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; we should consider each of the applications of language tags:<br>
<div>&gt; &gt; identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and<br>
&gt; be able to<br>
&gt; &gt; have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits<br>
&gt;<br>
</div>Peter wrote in response:<br>
<div>&gt; I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully*<br>
&gt; reasoned judgment, pausing to make sure the arguments<br>
&gt; presented really do stand up.<br>
<br>
</div>Debbie wrote in response:<br>
&gt;I think this is probably a good way forward. &nbsp;It would be best to<br>
&gt;start a new thread for each application. &nbsp;I would also add<br>
&gt;backward compatibility and historical usage to the pot.<br>
<br>
I would ask the co-chairs to guide the WG in this direction and to advise<br>
the WG that any other threads will be considered as temporarily off topic<br>
until the extlang/no extlang issue is resolved.<br>
<br>
Somebody may have already posted a similar request but I have not had time<br>
to read the avalanche of mail this evening. We really need the WG to focus<br>
now.<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Debbie<br>
</font><div><br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; Behalf Of Randy Presuhn<br>
</div><div>&gt; Sent: 29 May 2008 19:48<br>
&gt; To: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang<br>
&gt;<br>
</div><div><div></div><div>&gt; Hi -<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: &quot;Phillips, Addison&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:addison@amazon.com" target="_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com" target="_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;; &quot;LTRU Working<br>
&gt; &gt; Group&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:51 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; One was sent after the deadline.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If this was my vote (sent yesterday prior to your message), your<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;revised totals&quot; appear wrong, as I voted &quot;A,B&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The summary (with the late response) was sent out before your<br>
&gt; much later response. &nbsp;Including the three late responses I&#39;ve<br>
&gt; seen, it now comes to<br>
&gt; Q1 a-6 b-9 c-4<br>
&gt; Q2 a-8 b-6 c-5<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Not the clear-cut result any of us would have liked.<br>
&gt; (And for me, having a clear decision is much more important<br>
&gt; than the decision itself!)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ...<br>
&gt; &gt; This is not a situation in which either camp has a totally decisive<br>
&gt; &gt; argument up its sleeve.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This has been apparent for many, many months.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; While I think this is the wrong way to go (obviously, as I<br>
&gt; supported<br>
&gt; &gt; removing extlang), some kind of decision is desirable.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Agreed. &nbsp;However, the recent discussion indicates that the<br>
&gt; group doesn&#39;t feel much urgency in moving on. &nbsp;If the<br>
&gt; decision were solely up to me, I&#39;d recommend shutting down<br>
&gt; the working group, letting the people that care about it<br>
&gt; fight it out, and then let them request a BOF at some future<br>
&gt; IETF meeting when they think they&#39;re ready to resume work as<br>
&gt; a working group. &nbsp;(This is what happened when the SNMPv2<br>
&gt; working group missed its charter deadline by a far, far<br>
&gt; smaller margin.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; As co-editor, my immediate concern is how to implement this.<br>
&gt; &gt; Assuming that we don&#39;t do a new round of voting and<br>
&gt; persuasion, I can<br>
&gt; &gt; hardly restore the text we had prior to removing extlang<br>
&gt; because some<br>
&gt; &gt; serious editing has occurred since then.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Agreed.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; We will need to decide what criteria are used to register<br>
&gt; and maintain<br>
&gt; &gt; extlangs as a result (a problem we were struggling with<br>
&gt; prior to the<br>
&gt; &gt; decision to remove extlang). What will be necessary, I think, is a<br>
&gt; &gt; stem-to-stern restore-and-edit pass with the particular notes of<br>
&gt; &gt; interest sent to the list. The resulting draft will then need to be<br>
&gt; &gt; reviewed by the list.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sounds reasonable.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If there is some doubt about whether the results of this consensus<br>
&gt; &gt; call will hold, I would point out that this might be a<br>
&gt; useful exercise<br>
&gt; &gt; in any event, as we can compare this putative &quot;draft-15&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; (incorporating feedback from the list, of course) to the<br>
&gt; current draft-14 more directly:<br>
&gt; &gt; we can compare each other&#39;s cherry picking machines for<br>
&gt; elegance :-).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; :-) &nbsp;Since we&#39;re in &quot;the lesser of the evils&quot; mode, I agree<br>
&gt; it would be helpful to work through the devilish details.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Is this the decision, Randy and Martin? Or should we waffle<br>
&gt; along a bit longer?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Creating such a draft sounds good to me. &nbsp;Martin, any insights?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Randy<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
</div>
</div></div>

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> From: Leif Halvard Silli [mailto:lhs@malform.no]

> > "no" has been deprecated in ISO 639 for many years now,
>
>
> This was news to me. Perhaps you are wrong on this? I don't find
> it logical.

My bad: this is yet another case in which I've assumed past practice in one part of 639 to imply similar practice in other parts of 639. Unlike "sh", which was deprecated when "hr" and "sr" were added, "no" was not deprecated when "nb" and "nn" were added.

Even so, the point I was making remains valid: "no-nb" or "no-nob" or "no-nn" or "no-nno" would not be compatible with existing usage.


Peter



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>
> Even so, the point I was making remains valid: "no-nb" or "no-nob" or
> "no-nn" or "no-nno" would not be compatible with existing usage.
>

The tags "no-nb" and "no-nn" (in which 'nb' and 'nn' represent languages and not regions) cannot be made legal without breaking many things. Like compatibility with ISO 3166-1, for example. This has *always* been true, even in RFC 1766 or RFC 3066.

The tags "no-nno" and "no-nob" could be made legal if we were to restore extlang. However, at no point has this been contemplated because 'nb' and 'nn' are already valid primary language subtags and we have a pretty firm policy of not making synonyms. This would introduce Yet Another Way to Tag Norwegian, which is kind of a mess, given that:

The tags "no-bok" and "no-nyn" are grandfathered (and deprecated, but still valid), since they were registered under RFC 1766 and later ISO 639-1 created 'nb' and 'nn', replacing them.

Macrolanguage information is "useful" here, in that it allows one to determine that 'nb' and 'nn' are each related to 'no', as many systems continued to use 'no', blithely ignoring the Bokmal/Nynorsk divide.

Addison


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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-29 21.38:

> 2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all [...]


Will encompassed Chinese languages have the macrolanguage field?

It is good if all macro and encompassed languages are treated the 
same way. But then it is perhaps also questionable if there are 
two such important exceptions.  Chinese is a classic example of 
what "macrolanguage" is or means.

 > 3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar')
 > encompassed languages for registration as extlangs. This is
 > done in the name of compatibility alone.

I support including 'sgn'. But what does "in the name of 
compatibility alone" mean? That it isn't linked to macrolangauge? 
If it *is* linked to macrolanguage, then you can't explain it as a 
compatibility issue and vice-versa.

 > 4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language' production as
 > atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated as if it
 > were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags,
 > notably by existing implementations). Note that the 'language'
 > production is the one that includes both the primary and
 > extended language subtags.

Might all these exceptions to 'zh' only hamper Chinese and Sign 
languages (and in the end perhaps make this tagging style unstable?)?

ALTERNATIVE PROPOSAL: Let's cherry pick in some way or another. 
But let's have extlang as a macrolanguage thing, and thus explain 
it not as an exception for compatibility reasons, but as one of 
two method for handeling the macrolanguage identification.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-30 01.45:

>> Even so, the point I was making remains valid: "no-nb" or
>> "no-nob" or "no-nn" or "no-nno" would not be compatible with
>> existing usage.

 >

> The tags "no-nb" and "no-nn" 


Please note that I don't advocate this case anymore.
-- 
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 17:18:23 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
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>
> > 2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all [...]
>
>
> Will encompassed Chinese languages have the macrolanguage field?

Perhaps you should read the current draft?

>
> It is good if all macro and encompassed languages are treated the
> same way. But then it is perhaps also questionable if there are
> two such important exceptions.  Chinese is a classic example of
> what "macrolanguage" is or means.

See: "elephant in the room"

>
>  > 3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar')
>  > encompassed languages for registration as extlangs. This is
>  > done in the name of compatibility alone.
>
> I support including 'sgn'. But what does "in the name of
> compatibility alone" mean? That it isn't linked to macrolangauge?
> If it *is* linked to macrolanguage, then you can't explain it as a
> compatibility issue and vice-versa.

It means: it is not linked to "macrolanguage", a feature of ISO 639-3. It is strictly recognition that past tagging practice has used "zh-*" and "sgn-*". It has nothing to do with anything else.

>
>  > 4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language' production as
>  > atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated as if it
>  > were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags,
>  > notably by existing implementations). Note that the 'language'
>  > production is the one that includes both the primary and
>  > extended language subtags.
>
> Might all these exceptions to 'zh' only hamper Chinese and Sign
> languages (and in the end perhaps make this tagging style unstable?)?

Uh...

1. "sgn" is not a macrolanguage and should not be.

2. The above should not hamper Chinese or sign languages. Why would you think so? You seem to support extlang. This is extlang for those languages solely.

>
> ALTERNATIVE PROPOSAL: Let's cherry pick in some way or another.

You are welcome to suggest another cherry picking device.

> But let's have extlang as a macrolanguage thing, and thus explain
> it not as an exception for compatibility reasons, but as one of
> two method for handeling the macrolanguage identification.

Well, no. The point of the "modest proposal" was to try and break the logjam in which some of us insist that we'd be better off without extlangs and others insist we'd be better off with them.

You are proposing having TWO methods tagging the same language variety, an idea that is antithetical to language tagging and which presents more problems than it solves.

Addison


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situation as example
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To: "'Phillips, Addison'" <addison@amazon.com>,
	"'Leif Halvard Silli'" <lhs@malform.no>,
	"'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Ltru] Elephants and Goldfish Require Structure was RE: a modest
	proposal...
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Never mind elephants... I feel like a goldfish... in a bowl... going
round... and round... and round... and round...

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Phillips, Addison
> Sent: 30 May 2008 01:18
> To: Leif Halvard Silli; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
>
> >
> > > 2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all [...]
> >
> >
> > Will encompassed Chinese languages have the macrolanguage field?
>
> Perhaps you should read the current draft?
>
> >
> > It is good if all macro and encompassed languages are
> treated the same
> > way. But then it is perhaps also questionable if there are two such
> > important exceptions.  Chinese is a classic example of what
> > "macrolanguage" is or means.
>
> See: "elephant in the room"
>
> >
> >  > 3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar')  >
> > encompassed languages for registration as extlangs. This is
>  > done in
> > the name of compatibility alone.
> >
> > I support including 'sgn'. But what does "in the name of
> compatibility
> > alone" mean? That it isn't linked to macrolangauge?
> > If it *is* linked to macrolanguage, then you can't explain it as a
> > compatibility issue and vice-versa.
>
> It means: it is not linked to "macrolanguage", a feature of
> ISO 639-3. It is strictly recognition that past tagging
> practice has used "zh-*" and "sgn-*". It has nothing to do
> with anything else.
>
> >
> >  > 4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language'
> production as  >
> > atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated as if
> it  > were
> > a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags,  >
> notably by
> > existing implementations). Note that the 'language'
> >  > production is the one that includes both the primary and  >
> > extended language subtags.
> >
> > Might all these exceptions to 'zh' only hamper Chinese and Sign
> > languages (and in the end perhaps make this tagging style
> unstable?)?
>
> Uh...
>
> 1. "sgn" is not a macrolanguage and should not be.
>
> 2. The above should not hamper Chinese or sign languages. Why
> would you think so? You seem to support extlang. This is
> extlang for those languages solely.
>
> >
> > ALTERNATIVE PROPOSAL: Let's cherry pick in some way or another.
>
> You are welcome to suggest another cherry picking device.
>
> > But let's have extlang as a macrolanguage thing, and thus
> explain it
> > not as an exception for compatibility reasons, but as one of two
> > method for handeling the macrolanguage identification.
>
> Well, no. The point of the "modest proposal" was to try and
> break the logjam in which some of us insist that we'd be
> better off without extlangs and others insist we'd be better
> off with them.
>
> You are proposing having TWO methods tagging the same
> language variety, an idea that is antithetical to language
> tagging and which presents more problems than it solves.
>
> Addison
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>




_______________________________________________
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From: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 18:04:45 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Mark,

One thing I think you aren't acknowledging is that "treat as synonyms" means something very different to the vast numbers of content creators who use this standard than it does the handful of search engines that use the fuzzy logic associated with companion standards. As you note in your document, "It is clear that companies like Google or Yahoo can work around the problems with extlang." How many other users need and can afford to implement the extended fallback and filtering logic? Enough that this logic should be the primary driver behind the chosen solution?

Before I spend too much time picking apart your lengthy screed involving a scenario where the BBC presents its web site in Sudanese Creole Arabic with rotating languages code logic for each day of the week ... (ahem) ... here's my real-world Chinese language list:

Chinese (Variant Unknown)
Chinese (Cantonese, Spoken)
Chinese (Cantonese, Written)
Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken)
Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken Taiwanese)
Chinese (Mandarin, Simplified)
Chinese (Mandarin, Traditional)
Chinese (Taiwanese, Spoken)
Chinese (Taiwanese, Written)

(Apologies, this is hard to represent in ASCII. I have a mini-spreadsheet if someone wants it.)


1             2       3   4
zh            zh        zh        zh
zh-yue  yue           yue         yue
zh-yue  yue           yue         yue
zh-cmn  cmn           zh          cmn
zh-cmn-TW       cmn-TW  zh-TW     cmn-TW
zh-cmn-Hans     cmn-Hans        zh-Hans zh-Hans
zh-cmn-Hant     cmn-Hant        zh-Hant zh-Hant
zh-min-nan      nan           nan         nan
zh-min-nan      nan           nan         nan


* Option #1 (RFC 4646) contains the codes as I have them today.
* Option #2 (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes if I choose to go against the grain and use "cmn".
* Option #3 (RFC 4646bis) treats "zh" and "cmn" as synonyms; avoids using "cmn" for compatibility.
* Option #4 (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes "cmn" for spoken context (where distinction is essential) and "zh" for written context.

Comments:

* Option #1 is unambiguous and shows that there is a relationship between these languages. It also preserves the legacy "zh" tag so developers that aren't hip to later versions of BCP 47 or 639-3 will have some idea what these tags mean. The tags are maybe longer than they need to be, but if I need a fixed-length tag, I can wait for 639-6. The languages may not be mutually intelligible in some contexts, but they are related.

* Option #2 is unambiguous, but Microsoft, Google, and Amazon won't be using the same tags for Chinese that I do. Even if I don't follow their lead, others likely will. This worries me. Also, the rules for #2 must include fuzzy guidelines such as, "use the 'zh' tag except when you think it's a bad idea" and "use the shortest tag except when you don't want to." This presents complications in trying to explain some sort of consistent method to the LTRU madness to others. Given this, I start to wish ISO 639-6 a safe and speedy passage.

* Option #3 is what I believe you might suggest, but for me, that's the worst list of all. There are five ambiguous "zh" categories on that list. It follows the "always use the shortest tag" rule and respects history, but it's useless to me from an identification perspective.

* Option #4 has three ambiguous tags and means I have to explain to people who aren't in this industry about why I use different tags for the same language. This strategy is less ambiguous that #3, but I'm not sure I can explain it to other content creators for the same reasons as #2 and presents the spoken/written complication others may not want. In the long run, this seems messy and unclear enough that it will result in bad tagging.

* Options #2,3,4: In general, it worries me that RFC 4646bis offers so many "preferred" options for the same thing. I really can't see how this simplifies things for anyone.

I don't have a need for fuzzy fallback scenarios. I need precise tags and mostly simple lookup. I think if you take the fallback scenarios and absurdities out of the document you reference, I don't think there's much left.

Regards,

Karen Broome




>-----Original Message-----
>From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>Of Mark Davis
>Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 4:00 PM
>To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
>Cc: LTRU Working Group
>Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
>
>What would be useful is to hear from the extlangistas what their
>concerns are specifically; many have not given reasons for favoring
>encompassed languages into extlang instead of into the primary
>language subtag. It would be useful for them to give the scenarios
>where they think extlang is an improvement. It would be useful to
>find out why they think the scenarios such as in
>http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dfqr8rd5_676kxxxjhd&hl=en are not a
>problem.
>
>Clearly people think that using the extlang model solves more
>problems than it causes, so it would be useful to example specific
>cases and see if that is, in fact, true.
>
>
>Mark

_______________________________________________
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Macrolanguage,	Extlang. The Sami language situation as
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 Extlang. The Sami language situation as example
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Doug Ewell


> The ISO definition is a "cover story" if it is simply an attempt at a
> legitimate-sounding explanation for what is really, under the surface,
> a
> kludge.  I think if the RA really felt they were a kludge, they would
> have come out and said so (perhaps using a more dignified term than
> "kludge").

Some of the particular cases that ended up as macrolanguages in ISO 639-3 may be kludgy, having been influenced by some ad hoc prior practices. The notion of macrolanguage, though, is not a kludge: it reflects realities. Those may be realities of practical usage in ICTs rather than realities of common linguistic expression, but they are realities all the same.


> Note, once again, that this is not an argument for or against extlang.

Indeed.


Peter
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--===============1023271631==
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	boundary="_000_E19FDBD7A3A7F04788F00E90915BD36C13C251B4FDUSSDIXMSG20sp_"

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Chinese (Variant Unknown)

zh

zh

zh

zh

Chinese (Cantonese, Spoken)

zh-yue

yue

yue

yue

Chinese (Cantonese, Written)

zh-yue

yue

yue

yue

Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken)

zh-cmn

cmn

zh

cmn

Chinese (Mandarin, Taiwanese, Spoken)

zh-cmn-TW

cmn-TW

zh-TW

cmn-TW

Chinese (Mandarin, Simplified)

zh-cmn-Hans

cmn-Hans

zh-Hans

zh-Hans

Chinese (Mandarin, Traditional)

zh-cmn-Hant

cmn-Hant

zh-Hant

zh-Hant

Chinese (Taiwanese, Spoken)

zh-nan

nan

nan

nan

Chinese (Taiwanese, Written)

zh-nan

nan

nan

nan






* Option #1 (RFC 4646) contains the codes as I have them today.
* Option #2 (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes if I choose to go against the =
grain and use "cmn".
* Option #3 (RFC 4646bis) treats "zh" and "cmn" as synonyms; avoids using "=
cmn" for compatibility.
* Option #4 (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes "cmn" for spoken context (wher=
e distinction is essential) and "zh" for written context.















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xmlns:x=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns:m=3D"http://schema=
s.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html=
40">

<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
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pre
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tt
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span.PlainTextChar
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	mso-style-priority:99;
	mso-style-link:"Plain Text";
	font-family:Consolas;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
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	mso-style-priority:99;
	mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
	font-family:"Courier New";}
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</head>

<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 wi=
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  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>Chinese
  (Variant Unknown)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D155 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:93.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>Chinese
  (Cantonese, Spoken)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D155 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:93.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-yue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>yue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>yue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>yue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>Chinese
  (Cantonese, Written)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D155 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:93.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-yue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>yue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>yue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>yue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>Chinese
  (Mandarin, Spoken)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D155 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:93.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-cmn<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>cmn<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>cmn<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>Chinese
  (Mandarin, Taiwanese, Spoken)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D155 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:93.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-cmn-TW<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>cmn-TW<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-TW<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>cmn-TW<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>Chinese
  (Mandarin, Simplified)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D155 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:93.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-cmn-Hans<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>cmn-Hans<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-Hans<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-Hans<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>Chinese
  (Mandarin, Traditional)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D155 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:93.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-cmn-Hant<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>cmn-Hant<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-Hant<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-Hant<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>Chinese
  (Taiwanese, Spoken)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D155 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:93.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-nan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>nan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>nan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>nan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>Chinese
  (Taiwanese, Written)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D155 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:93.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>zh-nan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>nan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>nan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'>nan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D115 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:69.0pt;padding:0in =
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td style=3D'border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in' width=3D40><p class=3D'=
MsoNormal'>&nbsp;</td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D115 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:69.0pt;padding:0in =
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td style=3D'border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in' width=3D40><p class=3D'=
MsoNormal'>&nbsp;</td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;
  margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:0in;text-autospace:none'><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>* Option=
 #1
  (RFC 4646) contains the codes as I have them today. <o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;
  margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:0in;text-autospace:none'><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>* Option=
 #2
  (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes if I choose to go against the grain and =
use
  &quot;cmn&quot;. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;
  margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:0in;text-autospace:none'><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>* Option=
 #3
  (RFC 4646bis) treats &quot;zh&quot; and &quot;cmn&quot; as synonyms; avoi=
ds
  using &quot;cmn&quot; for compatibility. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;
  margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:0in;text-autospace:none'><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>* Option=
 #4
  (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes &quot;cmn&quot; for spoken context (wher=
e
  distinction is essential) and &quot;zh&quot; for written context. <o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D115 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:69.0pt;padding:0in =
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td style=3D'border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in' width=3D40><p class=3D'=
MsoNormal'>&nbsp;</td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D115 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:69.0pt;padding:0in =
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td style=3D'border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in' width=3D40><p class=3D'=
MsoNormal'>&nbsp;</td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D115 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:69.0pt;padding:0in =
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td style=3D'border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in' width=3D40><p class=3D'=
MsoNormal'>&nbsp;</td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D115 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:69.0pt;padding:0in =
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td style=3D'border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in' width=3D40><p class=3D'=
MsoNormal'>&nbsp;</td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D115 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:69.0pt;padding:0in =
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td style=3D'border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in' width=3D40><p class=3D'=
MsoNormal'>&nbsp;</td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:13.2pt'>
  <td width=3D353 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:212.0pt;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D115 nowrap valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:69.0pt;padding:0in =
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D98 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:59.0pt;p=
adding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
  height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D112 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:67.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td width=3D113 nowrap colspan=3D2 valign=3Dbottom style=3D'width:68.0pt;=
padding:
  0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:13.2pt'></td>
  <td style=3D'border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in' width=3D40><p class=3D'=
MsoNormal'>&nbsp;</td>
 </tr>
 <tr height=3D0>
  <td width=3D353 style=3D'border:none'></td>
  <td width=3D115 style=3D'border:none'></td>
  <td width=3D40 style=3D'border:none'></td>
  <td width=3D58 style=3D'border:none'></td>
  <td width=3D40 style=3D'border:none'></td>
  <td width=3D72 style=3D'border:none'></td>
  <td width=3D40 style=3D'border:none'></td>
  <td width=3D73 style=3D'border:none'></td>
  <td width=3D40 style=3D'border:none'></td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

--_000_E19FDBD7A3A7F04788F00E90915BD36C13C251B4FDUSSDIXMSG20sp_--


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From: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
To: "ltru@ietf.org" <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 18:26:06 -0700
Thread-Topic: HTML format table (from previous e-mail)
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Sorry folks. I think I need to throw in the towel for today. Now that I've finally gotten my new e-mail client to quote messages properly in ascii, I can't seem to get it to send HTML on demand.

Karen



>-----Original Message-----
>From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>Of Broome, Karen
>Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 6:11 PM
>To: ltru@ietf.org
>Subject: [Ltru] HTML format table (from previous e-mail)
>
>Chinese (Variant Unknown)
>
>zh
>
>zh
>
>zh
>
>zh
>
>Chinese (Cantonese, Spoken)
>
>zh-yue
>
>yue
>
>yue
>
>yue
>
>Chinese (Cantonese, Written)
>
>zh-yue
>
>yue
>
>yue
>
>yue
>
>Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken)
>
>zh-cmn
>
>cmn
>
>zh
>
>cmn
>
>Chinese (Mandarin, Taiwanese, Spoken)
>
>zh-cmn-TW
>
>cmn-TW
>
>zh-TW
>
>cmn-TW
>
>Chinese (Mandarin, Simplified)
>
>zh-cmn-Hans
>
>cmn-Hans
>
>zh-Hans
>
>zh-Hans
>
>Chinese (Mandarin, Traditional)
>
>zh-cmn-Hant
>
>cmn-Hant
>
>zh-Hant
>
>zh-Hant
>
>Chinese (Taiwanese, Spoken)
>
>zh-nan
>
>nan
>
>nan
>
>nan
>
>Chinese (Taiwanese, Written)
>
>zh-nan
>
>nan
>
>nan
>
>nan
>
>
>
>
>
>* Option #1 (RFC 4646) contains the codes as I have them today.
>
>* Option #2 (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes if I choose to go
>against the grain and use "cmn".
>
>* Option #3 (RFC 4646bis) treats "zh" and "cmn" as synonyms; avoids
>using "cmn" for compatibility.
>
>* Option #4 (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes "cmn" for spoken
>context (where distinction is essential) and "zh" for written
>context.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Thu May 29 21:45:40 2008
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Elephants and Goldfish Require Structure was RE: a
	modest proposal...
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Debbie Garside scripsit:

> Never mind elephants... I feel like a goldfish... in a bowl... going
> round... and round... and round... and round...

The only way out is down.  Or is it up?  It doesn't matter: the way up
and the way down are one and the same.  You *can* step into the same
goldfish bowl twice.

-- 
Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.
        --Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God"
                John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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To: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Broome, Karen scripsit:

> zh-min-nan      nan           nan         nan

Note that if we do go with extlangs, or extlangs-for-zh, we would still
deprecate zh-min-nan in favor of zh-nan, though of course zh-min-nan
will remain valid.

-- 
Principles.  You can't say A is         John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
made of B or vice versa.  All mass      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
is interaction.  --Richard Feynman
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Broome, Karen


> Before I spend too much time picking apart your lengthy screed
> involving a scenario where the BBC presents its web site in Sudanese
> Creole Arabic with rotating languages code logic for each day of the
> week ... (ahem) ... here's my real-world Chinese language list:
>
> Chinese (Variant Unknown)
> Chinese (Cantonese, Spoken)
> Chinese (Cantonese, Written)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken Taiwanese)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Simplified)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Traditional)
> Chinese (Taiwanese, Spoken)
> Chinese (Taiwanese, Written)


> 1             2          3         4
> zh            zh         zh        zh
> zh-yue        yue        yue       yue
> zh-yue        yue        yue       yue
> zh-cmn        cmn        zh        cmn
> zh-cmn-TW     cmn-TW     zh-TW     cmn-TW
> zh-cmn-Hans   cmn-Hans   zh-Hans   zh-Hans
> zh-cmn-Hant   cmn-Hant   zh-Hant   zh-Hant
> zh-min-nan    nan        nan       nan
> zh-min-nan    nan        nan       nan


> Comments:
>
> * Option #1 is unambiguous and shows that there is a relationship
> between these languages.

The only difference with #2 is that the relationship is not reflected directly in the tags.

Since you mention having the relationship shown, I gather you think there's a benefit, but you don't explain what that benefit is.


> It also preserves the legacy "zh" tag so
> developers that aren't hip to later versions of BCP 47 or 639-3 will
> have some idea what these tags mean.

I'm not sure how significant a benefit that is. The developers may encounter many subtags that they're not familiar with, and they'll need to do some learning to make sense of them. And if feedback we got the first time we tried a last call for 3066bis were to be believed (before this WG was formed), there are developers out there who will be confused by any new patterns for forming tags. I agree that the presence of "zh" will give them a hint, but I expect in any of these situations people that need to will find out what these things they don't recognize are.


> The tags are maybe longer than
> they need to be, but if I need a fixed-length tag, I can wait for 639-6.

The length is not a problem, nor is the variation in length a problem.

I've got some people in my company expressing concern over people (meaning people in my company, not users) being confused by the fact that some languages will be represented as "aa", others "aaa", and (worst of all) still others "aa-bbb" or "aaa-bbb". While I expect people in a technology company who need to work directly with these things ought to be able to learn about and understand extlangs, I think if any of these things we've been talking about is likely to be a source of confusion, it's probably this (extlang). I'm still not sure that's a serious concern, but my point is that I think something like unfamiliarity with "cmn" is less of a concern.


> The languages may not be mutually intelligible in some contexts, but
> they are related.

English and Frisian are related. French and Spanish are related. Vietnamese and Khmer are related. I'm not sure how those facts are especially significant for tagging.



> * Option #2 is unambiguous, but Microsoft, Google, and Amazon won't be
> using the same tags for Chinese that I do. Even if I don't follow their
> lead, others likely will. This worries me.

The potential for different parties to use different tags exists in any of the schemes you list.

While we may not always use the same tags that you do, it isn't necessarily the case that we would never use the same tags that you do. I can't speak for other vendors, but I wouldn't at all rule out MS using the same tags you use in scenarios where your content needs to be supported.


> Also, the rules for #2 must
> include fuzzy guidelines such as, "use the 'zh' tag except when you
> think it's a bad idea" and "use the shortest tag except when you don't
> want to."

That's the same for #1, though.


> This presents complications in trying to explain some sort of
> consistent method to the LTRU madness to others. Given this, I start to
> wish ISO 639-6 a safe and speedy passage.

Have you at all considered what complications there would be in going to that? If all you're thinking about is "identification" (how to declare an identity), then I can imaging you might not have. Being on the side of thinking about how to consume tags and do something with them, I don't see that as a rosy and simple alternative.


> * Option #3 is what I believe you might suggest, but for me, that's the
> worst list of all. There are five ambiguous "zh" categories on that
> list. It follows the "always use the shortest tag" rule and respects
> history, but it's useless to me from an identification perspective.

I won't argue against your concerns here: they are valid. You do need to acknowledge, though, that all of the tags you find problematic in this case (zh, zh-TW, zh-Han?) would all be valid in *any* case, no matter what we decide, and these *will* be encountered.


> * Option #4 has three ambiguous tags and means I have to explain to
> people who aren't in this industry about why I use different tags for
> the same language. This strategy is less ambiguous that #3, but I'm not
> sure I can explain it to other content creators for the same reasons as
> #2 and presents the spoken/written complication others may not want. In
> the long run, this seems messy and unclear enough that it will result
> in bad tagging.

Again, with or without extlang, some kind of guidance needs to be given, and some reasonable means must be available for those who must somehow support legacy processes and data.


> * Options #2,3,4: In general, it worries me that RFC 4646bis offers so
> many "preferred" options for the same thing. I really can't see how
> this simplifies things for anyone.

There is no avoiding certain options for Chinese, whether with or without extlang, whether with RFC 4646bis or some entirely new scheme based on ISO 639-6 or whatever (since IETF language tags as we know them aren't about to disappear).



Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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2008/5/30 Broome, Karen <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>:

> Chinese (Variant Unknown)
> Chinese (Cantonese, Spoken)
> Chinese (Cantonese, Written)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken Taiwanese)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Simplified)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Traditional)
> Chinese (Taiwanese, Spoken)
> Chinese (Taiwanese, Written)
>


wouldn't Chinese (Cantonese, Written) be divided into

Chinese (Cantonese, Simplified)  and  Chinese (Cantonese, Traditional)

I'm assuming a citizen of Guangzhou province, if they decide to write
in Cantonese, are unlikely to be doing so in Traditional characters.
Although my assumptions may be wrong.

-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
lang.support@gmail.com
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Broome, Karen


> >If identification is what you want, then "cmn" IS unambigously
> >Mandarin (indeterminate script);
>
> But is "cmn" the tag you will use, Mark?

I think it must be recognized that, even if Mark says, "Yes, I will use cmn," there will inevitably someone else (and lots of existing process implementations and content) that do not. I think there's general willingness to say that one should use cmn for Mandarin, but also a necessary recognition that we can't avoid saying that some may use zh for Mandarin content.


> However, when RFC 4646bis is released, it seems like I will be using
> different tags than everyone else on this list and we will no longer
> agree on what the best tag is.

I don't see that that needs to be the case.


> I fear the subtleties in the rules may
> prove tougher to explain than today's rules which already cause some
> eyerolling.

I don't see that they're necessarily tougher -- at least not for Chinese since we already have tags for the encompassed languages. The existing RFC didn't say anything about use of zh versus registered tags in part, I think, because the latter were not directly sanctioned by the RFC, and because the issues that arise from availability of subtags for both macrolanguages and for their encompassed languages don't exist inherently in RFC 4646 whereas they do in 4646bis. Even so, there are options for Chinese today, and there's as much need for guidance wrt Chinese today under 4646 as there would be tomorrow under 4646bis.


> Considering this, I start to wonder if the release of RFC
> 4646bis is a step backward or forward. While I'm happy there's a tag
> for Broome Pearling Lugger Pidgin in ISO 639-3, I don't have any
> personal need for it.

The problem cat of Chinese is already out of the bag, and there are people that need support for many of the items coded in 639-3 but not in 639-2.



Peter
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 Extlang. The Sami language situation as example)
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[technical hat on]

At 05:18 08/05/30, Peter Constable wrote:
>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Leif Halvard Silli
>
>> It does anyhow seem as if those who support extlang consider the
>> Macrolanguage information generally relevant, while the other
>> group is more sceptical about how relevant that information is.
>
>Well, what I find striking is that the *only* cases involving 
>macrolanguages that are getting discussed are:
>
>- Chinese
>
>- Norwegian: this has also been mentioned by you, but since "no" has been 
>deprecated in ISO 639 for many years now, and introducing "no-nb"/"no-nn" 
>or "no-nob"/"no-nno" would certainly but be compatible with existing usage.

skipped.

>- Arabic: this has been cited in some examples, but I don't hear anyone 
>sounding eager to use extlang subtags with ar.

One reason we don't see this discussed that often may be that because
Arabic is customarily only written with one script, and because that
script is phonetic, there are less arguments to be made against using
extlang. To be specific:
- There is no problem, as there may be with Chinese, that the script
  is removed first when falling back from the right, and only then
  is the encompassed language removed, and this in some cases may
  create the wrong fallback sequences (in others, as for a reader
  who is resonably fluent in both script varieties but simply prefers
  one, the fallbacks may be just the right way).
- Because the script is phonetic, anybody who reads standard Arabic
  pretty much should be able to also listen to standard Arabic
  (missing vowel signs complicate the situation a bit). This is
  quite different from the Chinese situation, where being able
  to read Mandarin does in no way imply that you are able to
  also understand spoken Mandarin. Thus I think that the need
  for fallbacks similar to "Cantonese, then French, then many
  others, and maybe then or maybe never Mandarin" are way, way
  rarer and less important for Arabic.

So based on the above analysis, when it comes to ar- for Arabic,
count me in.


>- Don Osborne has several times over the past couple of years mentioned 
>interest in the macrolanguage concept wrt African languages because of 
>(IIUC) trends toward evolution of varieties used for wider communication. 
>But it's not clear to me that macrolanguage is the appropriate concept 
>there, as opposed to a distinct, individual language, and even if these are 
>considered macrolanguages I don't see requests to have extlang for these 
>cases: if anything, the emerging variety used in wider communication makes 
>the local varieties *less* relevant for tagging purposes, not more.

Well, yes, the emerging variety may make the local varieties less
important, but are we not already at exactly this situation for
Chinese and Arabic? For me, the concern here is much more that
these are currently very fluid situations, and whether extlangs
or not, we are not really good at dealing with fluid situations.

>So, there is really *only* one case that people seem to care about (at 
>least, in the near term -- who knows what may happen with Bikol or Zapotec 
>in the future) and that would really be impacted by our current decision, 
>and that's Chinese.
>
>(As much as people don't want to cherry pick arbitrarily, it seems to me 
>that there is an elephant in this room that we're trying to say is no 
>different from the rest of the furniture.)

For me, if it's zh- and ar-, at least. But I think the other macrolanguages
with two-letter codes also need careful consideration. Most importantly,
in situations similar to Arabic and Chinese (widely used common written
variety, wide variation when spoken), the considerations I gave above
for Arabic will apply (including the fact that in most cases, the
caveat about missing vowel notation not applying).
An example may be 'ms' (Malay). However, the documentation in the Ethnologue
for all the three-letter codes is highly confusing, with very recent changes.
But that may be an additional argument for keeping 'ms' at the center.


Regards,    Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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[co-chair hat on]

Hello Doug, others,

Two points:

1) One of the ideas of a consensus call is exactly that everybody,
   including people who don't think of themselves as skilled debaters
   or tenacious fighters, but who nevertheless may have well-founded
   technical opinions, can express their preferences (even in private
   if they deem that necessary).
   [Of course, expressing preferences includes "about as neutral as
    it gets" B-B opinions.]

2) All of Doug's postings (occasionally some others) seem to lose
   all their linebreaks when they arrive at my mailbox. Anybody has
   any idea why?

Regards,    Martin.

At 15:12 08/05/29, Doug Ewell wrote:
>Karen Broome <Karen underscore Broome at spe dot sony dot com> wrote: > >> 
>Phrases like "throws in the towel," "my resistance is gone," "as >> neutral 
>as I can be" ... Something does not feel good about this. > >What has become 
>evident to me is that I am neither the most skilled >debater nor the most 
>tenacious fighter in the group, and this battle is >going to be won and the 
>fence-sitters influenced by those who are. > >As I would like to be able to 
>continue working with others in this group >in the future, there is really 
>little more I can say about this. > >-- >Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  
>*  RFC 4645  *  UTN 
>#14 >http://www.ewellic.org >http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages 
> $B%R+
(B>_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing 
>list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltr


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     


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From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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At 13:14 08/05/29, Mark Davis wrote:
>If identification is what you want, then "cmn" IS unambigously Mandarin (indeterminate script); "yue" is unambiguously Cantonese (indeterminate script); you certainly don't need extlang complicating matters.
>
>The string "zh-yue" is really a different semantic; it is not just Cantonese, it is "Cantonese-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-indeterminate-script" in lookup (but not some other operations like RFC 4646 filtering).
>
>And "zh-yue-Hant-MO" is "Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han-script-and-as-used-in-Macao-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-indeterminent-script", again, in lookup.


Strictly speaking, wouldn't that be "Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han-script-and-as-used-in-Macao-but-then-fall-back-to-Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han-script-and then fall-back-to-Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han-script-and-then-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-indeterminent-script", in lookup?

Regards,   Martin.





#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 22:05:13 +1000
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] ar and other Macrolanguages (was: Re: Macrolanguage,
	Extlang. The Sami language situation as example)
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Hi all,

2008/5/30 Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>:


> So based on the above analysis, when it comes to ar- for Arabic,
> count me in.
>

except there are cases when this will get messy.

the best example of problems with Arabic as a macrolanguage is pga
Sudanese Creole Arabic (Juba Arabic), a creole assigned to the Arabic
macrolanguage. One key difference between Juba Arabic and all other
languages belonging to the Arabic macrolanguage (other than the fact
it is a creole) is the question of default writing script. Most
publications in Juba Arabic are written in the Latin script rather
than the Arabic script.

>
>>- Don Osborne has several times over the past couple of years mentioned
>>interest in the macrolanguage concept wrt African languages because of
>>(IIUC) trends toward evolution of varieties used for wider communication.
>>But it's not clear to me that macrolanguage is the appropriate concept
>>there, as opposed to a distinct, individual language, and even if these are
>>considered macrolanguages I don't see requests to have extlang for these
>>cases: if anything, the emerging variety used in wider communication makes
>>the local varieties *less* relevant for tagging purposes, not more.
>
> Well, yes, the emerging variety may make the local varieties less
> important, but are we not already at exactly this situation for
> Chinese and Arabic? For me, the concern here is much more that
> these are currently very fluid situations, and whether extlangs
> or not, we are not really good at dealing with fluid situations.
>

fluidity is a problem

we are already noticing it with Dinka documents, where traditionally
documents were written for a specific dialect and one fo the five
ISO-639-3 language codes would be most appropriate, but somre of the
documents being produced for educational purposes by Dinka expats
would be more suitably identified with the ISO-639-2 code since the
documents aren't written in a specific dialect, but rather in an
emerging Dinka influenced by each of the dialects.



-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andrewc@vicnet.net.au
lang.support@gmail.com
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
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Phillips, Addison 2008-05-30 02.18:


> It means: it is not linked to "macrolanguage", a feature of ISO
> 639-3. It is strictly recognition that past tagging practice
> has used "zh-*" and "sgn-*". It has nothing to do with anything
> else.

So the currently grandfathered "zh-cmn" etc will remain 
grandfatherd. The tagger will find "zh" and "cmn"  separately, in 
order to construct "zh-cmn". But when something has been tagged 
"zh-cmn", then it may be treated either as 'zh' with an extlang, 
or as an atomic tag. When treated as atomic, it is in reality 
treated as one of the grandfathered tags -- as long as it is a 
grandfathered tag.

> You are proposing having TWO methods tagging the same language
> variety, an idea that is antithetical to language tagging and
> which presents more problems than it solves


I meant that zh-* should be allowed not for strict compatibility 
reasons, as you said, but in order to tag macrolanguage 
relationship. Still one method, though. Of course, this means that 
sgn-* would  have to be allowed for another reason -- for the 
compatibility reason.

The text below serves as background for the following question: Is 
your proposal, that the language production might be read as 
atomic, only relevant for the Chinese tags? Or did you also have 
'ar-*' and 'sgn-*' in mind?

Background:

The macrolangauge field came up, as I understood it, because there 
were no extlang. In Doug's draft, all encompassed language subtags 
have that field. Except the grandfathered tags "zh-cmn" etc.

But my question is: What macrolanguge information comes with 
'zh-cmn' when it is read as an atomic? The answer should be, that 
when read as an atomic --- grandfathered zh-cmn -- the registry 
says that it is a synonym of 'cmn'. The 'cmn' then has a 
Macrolanguaga field which might be used by the application in 
order to find 'zh' etc.

However, if you read 'ar-*' or 'sgn-*' as an atomic, then there is 
no grandfathered tags that they match. And thus no place to find 
the macrolanguage information (for 'ar-*' -- unrelevant to 'sgn-*').
-- 
leif halvard silli
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Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 09:11:06 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Broome, Karen" <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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Peter's addressed some of the questions. Back to your original question.
For backward compatibility, we'll continue to represent Mandarin as "zh",
Standard Arabic as "ar", and so on. Note that this is independent of whether
extlang is used or not. That is, if extlang exists, we'll treat incoming
"zh-cmn" as if it were "zh"; if it doesn't, we'll treat "cmn" as if it
were "zh". And under either scenario it is conformant to tag Mandarin as
'zh'.

Why?
While 639-3 now specifies clearly that "de" means (for example) just
Standard German, while "zh" means Any
Chinese, this clarity of specification was not present earlier. The code
"zh" has been used in the past for Mandarin, overwhelmingly so; not just 99%
or 99.9%, but many 9's. As you said, the tendency was to use illegal (or
private use codes) for non-Mandarin content. All of our internal software
and any external software that we talk to will expect Mandarin to be tagged
as 'zh' for the forseeable future.  Of course, we recognize that others may
end up using 'zh-cmn' / 'cmn', so we're prepared to deal with that.

Note also that really the whole premise of extlang is that 'zh' continues to
normally map to Mandarin. After all, if 'zh' really meant that you were as
likely to get Gan or Hakka as Mandarin, then having "zh-yue" in order to get
some kind of automatic fallback wouldn't make any sense.


Other comments below.

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 6:04 PM, Broome, Karen <Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com>
wrote:

> Mark,
>
> One thing I think you aren't acknowledging is that "treat as synonyms"
> means something very different to the vast numbers of content creators who
> use this standard than it does the handful of search engines that use the
> fuzzy logic associated with companion standards. As you note in your
> document, "It is clear that companies like Google or Yahoo can work around
> the problems with extlang." How many other users need and can afford to
> implement the extended fallback and filtering logic? Enough that this logic
> should be the primary driver behind the chosen solution?
>
> Before I spend too much time picking apart your lengthy screed involving a
> scenario where the BBC presents its web site in Sudanese Creole Arabic with
> rotating languages code logic for each day of the week ... (ahem) ... here's
> my real-world Chinese language list:
>
> Chinese (Variant Unknown)
> Chinese (Cantonese, Spoken)
> Chinese (Cantonese, Written)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken Taiwanese)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Simplified)
> Chinese (Mandarin, Traditional)
> Chinese (Taiwanese, Spoken)
> Chinese (Taiwanese, Written)


Sorry you consider it a scree. I realize that the emails have sometimes
gotten heated -- email really is a poor substitute for audio discussions in
controversial issues; I've seen many, many issues in Unicode and other
standards flare for months in email, and be resolved in a few hours of
discussion.

My real point is that if a query for 'ar' really means "give me any kind of
Arabic", then a query for 'ar' would be almost meaningless, since it could
return any of a number of mutually incomprehensible alternatives. Although
639-3 now defines it to be "any Arabic", in practice what users will expect
to get back is Standard Arabic, and they would be unpleasantly surprised to
get back other varieties. And our purpose should be to avoid our users'
getting unpleasant surprises.


>
>
> (Apologies, this is hard to represent in ASCII. I have a mini-spreadsheet
> if someone wants it.)
>
>
>    1             2             3           4
> a. zh            zh            zh          zh
> b. zh-yue        yue           yue         yue
> c. zh-yue        yue           yue         yue
> d. zh-cmn        cmn           zh          cmn
> e. zh-cmn-TW     cmn-TW        zh-TW       cmn-TW
> f. zh-cmn-Hans   cmn-Hans      zh-Hans     zh-Hans
> g. zh-cmn-Hant   cmn-Hant      zh-Hant     zh-Hant
> h. zh-min-nan    nan           nan         nan
> i. zh-min-nan    nan           nan         nan


above modified slightly to add row references.

>
>
>
> * Option #1 (RFC 4646) contains the codes as I have them today.

Note that this is not actually RFC4646 conformant: zh-cmn-TW is not valid.

>
> * Option #2 (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes if I choose to go against the
> grain and use "cmn".


> * Option #3 (RFC 4646bis) treats "zh" and "cmn" as synonyms; avoids using
> "cmn" for compatibility.
> * Option #4 (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes "cmn" for spoken context
> (where distinction is essential) and "zh" for written context.
>
> Comments:
>
> * Option #1 is unambiguous and shows that there is a relationship between
> these languages. It also preserves the legacy "zh" tag so developers that
> aren't hip to later versions of BCP 47 or 639-3 will have some idea what
> these tags mean. The tags are maybe longer than they need to be, but if I
> need a fixed-length tag, I can wait for 639-6. The languages may not be
> mutually intelligible in some contexts, but they are related.
>
> * Option #2 is unambiguous, but Microsoft, Google, and Amazon won't be
> using the same tags for Chinese that I do. Even if I don't follow their
> lead, others likely will. This worries me. Also, the rules for #2 must
> include fuzzy guidelines such as, "use the 'zh' tag except when you think
> it's a bad idea" and "use the shortest tag except when you don't want to."
> This presents complications in trying to explain some sort of consistent
> method to the LTRU madness to others. Given this, I start to wish ISO 639-6
> a safe and speedy passage.
>
> * Option #3 is what I believe you might suggest, but for me, that's the
> worst list of all. There are five ambiguous "zh" categories on that list. It
> follows the "always use the shortest tag" rule and respects history, but
> it's useless to me from an identification perspective.


Your list is already ambiguous for columns 1 and 2; you are using "yue" for
two different things (written and spoken). The only change it really makes
is that you don't have a term for "any chinese".

RFC 4646 lacks terms for many, many combinations of things: a term for "any
german" (including de, gsw, ...), "any french", "any scandinavian", or any
one of the countless other possible sets of languages that people consider
to be important for some particular purpose. That's why lists of languages
are really the appropriate vehicle.


>
> * Option #4 has three ambiguous tags and means I have to explain to people
> who aren't in this industry about why I use different tags for the same
> language. This strategy is less ambiguous that #3, but I'm not sure I can
> explain it to other content creators for the same reasons as #2 and presents
> the spoken/written complication others may not want. In the long run, this
> seems messy and unclear enough that it will result in bad tagging.
>
> * Options #2,3,4: In general, it worries me that RFC 4646bis offers so many
> "preferred" options for the same thing. I really can't see how this
> simplifies things for anyone.
>
> I don't have a need for fuzzy fallback scenarios. I need precise tags and
> mostly simple lookup. I think if you take the fallback scenarios and
> absurdities out of the document you reference, I don't think there's much
> left.


The only purpose I have heard for extlang *is* for fallback; that's why the
document goes into (painful) depth on that topic. For identification alone,
"zh" and "zh-cmn" really mean just the same thing. It is only in the context
of matching (filtering and lookup) that they differ in semantics *because of
their behavior*: where "cmn" means simply Cantonese, "zh-cmn" effectively
means "Cantonese but fallback to any Chinese".

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>
>
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> >Of Mark Davis
> >Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 4:00 PM
> >To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
> >Cc: LTRU Working Group
> >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
> >
> >What would be useful is to hear from the extlangistas what their
> >concerns are specifically; many have not given reasons for favoring
> >encompassed languages into extlang instead of into the primary
> >language subtag. It would be useful for them to give the scenarios
> >where they think extlang is an improvement. It would be useful to
> >find out why they think the scenarios such as in
> >http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dfqr8rd5_676kxxxjhd&hl=en are not a
> >problem.
> >
> >Clearly people think that using the extlang model solves more
> >problems than it causes, so it would be useful to example specific
> >cases and see if that is, in fact, true.
> >
> >
> >Mark
>
>


-- 
Mark

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Peter&#39;s addressed some of the questions. Back to your original question.<div><br></div><div>For backward compatibility, we&#39;ll continue to represent Mandarin as &quot;zh&quot;, Standard Arabic as &quot;ar&quot;, and so on. Note that this is independent of whether extlang is used or not. That is, if extlang exists, we&#39;ll treat incoming &quot;zh-cmn&quot; as if it were &quot;zh&quot;; if it doesn&#39;t, we&#39;ll treat &quot;cmn&quot; as if it were&nbsp;&quot;zh&quot;. And under either scenario it is conformant to tag Mandarin as &#39;zh&#39;.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Why? While&nbsp;639-3&nbsp;now&nbsp;specifies&nbsp;clearly&nbsp;that&nbsp;&quot;de&quot;&nbsp;means&nbsp;(for&nbsp;example)&nbsp;just&nbsp;Standard&nbsp;German,&nbsp;while&nbsp;&quot;zh&quot;&nbsp;means&nbsp;Any Chinese,&nbsp;this&nbsp;clarity&nbsp;of&nbsp;specification&nbsp;was&nbsp;not&nbsp;present&nbsp;earlier. The code &quot;zh&quot;&nbsp;has&nbsp;been&nbsp;used&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;past&nbsp;for&nbsp;Mandarin,&nbsp;overwhelmingly&nbsp;so; not just 99% or 99.9%, but many 9&#39;s. As you said, the tendency was to use illegal (or private use codes) for non-Mandarin content. All of our internal software and any external software that we talk to will expect Mandarin to be tagged as &#39;zh&#39; for the forseeable future. &nbsp;Of course, we recognize that others may end up using &#39;zh-cmn&#39; / &#39;cmn&#39;, so we&#39;re prepared to deal with that.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="webkit-indent-blockquote" style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">Note also that really the whole premise of extlang is that &#39;zh&#39; continues to normally map to Mandarin. After all, if &#39;zh&#39; really meant that you were as likely to get Gan or Hakka as Mandarin, then having &quot;zh-yue&quot; in order to get some kind of automatic fallback wouldn&#39;t make any sense.<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Other comments below.</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 6:04 PM, Broome, Karen &lt;<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Mark,<br>
<br>
One thing I think you aren&#39;t acknowledging is that &quot;treat as synonyms&quot; means something very different to the vast numbers of content creators who use this standard than it does the handful of search engines that use the fuzzy logic associated with companion standards. As you note in your document, &quot;It is clear that companies like Google or Yahoo can work around the problems with extlang.&quot; How many other users need and can afford to implement the extended fallback and filtering logic? Enough that this logic should be the primary driver behind the chosen solution?<br>

<br>
Before I spend too much time picking apart your lengthy screed involving a scenario where the BBC presents its web site in Sudanese Creole Arabic with rotating languages code logic for each day of the week ... (ahem) ... here&#39;s my real-world Chinese language list:<br>

<br>
Chinese (Variant Unknown)<br>
Chinese (Cantonese, Spoken)<br>
Chinese (Cantonese, Written)<br>
Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken)<br>
Chinese (Mandarin, Spoken Taiwanese)<br>
Chinese (Mandarin, Simplified)<br>
Chinese (Mandarin, Traditional)<br>
Chinese (Taiwanese, Spoken)<br>
Chinese (Taiwanese, Written)</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sorry you consider it a scree. I realize that the emails have sometimes gotten heated -- email really is a poor substitute for audio discussions in controversial issues; I&#39;ve seen many, many issues in Unicode and other standards flare for months in email, and be resolved in a few hours of discussion.</div>
<div><br></div><div>My real point is that if a query for &#39;ar&#39; really means &quot;give me any kind of Arabic&quot;, then a query for &#39;ar&#39; would be almost meaningless, since it could return any of a number of mutually incomprehensible alternatives. Although 639-3 now defines it to be &quot;any Arabic&quot;, in practice what users will expect to get back is Standard Arabic, and they would be unpleasantly surprised to get back other varieties. And our purpose should be to avoid our users&#39; getting unpleasant surprises.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><br>
<br>
(Apologies, this is hard to represent in ASCII. I have a mini-spreadsheet if someone wants it.)<br>
<br>
<br><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &#39;courier new&#39;, monospace;">&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4<br>a. zh &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;zh &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;zh &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;zh<br>b. zh-yue &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;yue &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; yue &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; yue<br>
c. zh-yue &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;yue &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; yue &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; yue<br>d. zh-cmn &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cmn &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; zh &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cmn<br>e. zh-cmn-TW &nbsp; &nbsp; cmn-TW &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;zh-TW &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cmn-TW<br>f. zh-cmn-Hans &nbsp; cmn-Hans &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;zh-Hans &nbsp; &nbsp; zh-Hans<br>g. zh-cmn-Hant &nbsp; cmn-Hant &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;zh-Hant &nbsp; &nbsp; zh-Hant<br>
h. zh-min-nan &nbsp; &nbsp;nan &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nan &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nan<br>i. zh-min-nan &nbsp; &nbsp;nan &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nan &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nan</span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>above modified slightly to add row references.&nbsp;</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &#39;courier new&#39;, monospace;"></span><br>
<br>
<br>
* Option #1 (RFC 4646) contains the codes as I have them today.</blockquote><div>Note that this is not actually RFC4646 conformant: zh-cmn-TW is not valid.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
* Option #2 (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes if I choose to go against the grain and use &quot;cmn&quot;.</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
* Option #3 (RFC 4646bis) treats &quot;zh&quot; and &quot;cmn&quot; as synonyms; avoids using &quot;cmn&quot; for compatibility.<br>
* Option #4 (RFC 4646bis) contains the codes &quot;cmn&quot; for spoken context (where distinction is essential) and &quot;zh&quot; for written context.<br>
<br>
Comments:<br>
<br>
* Option #1 is unambiguous and shows that there is a relationship between these languages. It also preserves the legacy &quot;zh&quot; tag so developers that aren&#39;t hip to later versions of BCP 47 or 639-3 will have some idea what these tags mean. The tags are maybe longer than they need to be, but if I need a fixed-length tag, I can wait for 639-6. The languages may not be mutually intelligible in some contexts, but they are related.<br>

<br>
* Option #2 is unambiguous, but Microsoft, Google, and Amazon won&#39;t be using the same tags for Chinese that I do. Even if I don&#39;t follow their lead, others likely will. This worries me. Also, the rules for #2 must include fuzzy guidelines such as, &quot;use the &#39;zh&#39; tag except when you think it&#39;s a bad idea&quot; and &quot;use the shortest tag except when you don&#39;t want to.&quot; This presents complications in trying to explain some sort of consistent method to the LTRU madness to others. Given this, I start to wish ISO 639-6 a safe and speedy passage.<br>

<br>
* Option #3 is what I believe you might suggest, but for me, that&#39;s the worst list of all. There are five ambiguous &quot;zh&quot; categories on that list. It follows the &quot;always use the shortest tag&quot; rule and respects history, but it&#39;s useless to me from an identification perspective.</blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>Your list is already ambiguous for columns 1 and 2; you are using &quot;yue&quot; for two different things (written and spoken). The only change it really makes is that you don&#39;t have a term for &quot;any chinese&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div><div>RFC 4646 lacks terms for many, many combinations of things: a&nbsp;term for &quot;any german&quot; (including de, gsw, ...), &quot;any french&quot;, &quot;any scandinavian&quot;, or any one of the countless other possible sets of languages that people consider to be important for some particular purpose. That&#39;s why lists of languages are really the appropriate vehicle.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><br>
<br>
* Option #4 has three ambiguous tags and means I have to explain to people who aren&#39;t in this industry about why I use different tags for the same language. This strategy is less ambiguous that #3, but I&#39;m not sure I can explain it to other content creators for the same reasons as #2 and presents the spoken/written complication others may not want. In the long run, this seems messy and unclear enough that it will result in bad tagging.<br>

<br>
* Options #2,3,4: In general, it worries me that RFC 4646bis offers so many &quot;preferred&quot; options for the same thing. I really can&#39;t see how this simplifies things for anyone.<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t have a need for fuzzy fallback scenarios. I need precise tags and mostly simple lookup. I think if you take the fallback scenarios and absurdities out of the document you reference, I don&#39;t think there&#39;s much left.</blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>The only purpose I have heard for extlang *is* for fallback; that&#39;s why the document goes into (painful) depth on that topic. For identification alone, &quot;zh&quot; and &quot;zh-cmn&quot; really mean just the same thing. It is only in the context of matching (filtering and lookup) that they differ in semantics *because of their behavior*: where &quot;cmn&quot; means simply Cantonese, &quot;zh-cmn&quot; effectively means &quot;Cantonese but fallback to any Chinese&quot;.&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Karen Broome<br>
</font><div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: <a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d">&gt;Of Mark Davis<br>
&gt;Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 4:00 PM<br>
&gt;To: <a href="mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk">debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk</a><br>
&gt;Cc: LTRU Working Group<br>
&gt;Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang<br>
&gt;<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">&gt;What would be useful is to hear from the extlangistas what their<br>
&gt;concerns are specifically; many have not given reasons for favoring<br>
&gt;encompassed languages into extlang instead of into the primary<br>
&gt;language subtag. It would be useful for them to give the scenarios<br>
&gt;where they think extlang is an improvement. It would be useful to<br>
&gt;find out why they think the scenarios such as in<br>
&gt;<a href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dfqr8rd5_676kxxxjhd&amp;hl=en" target="_blank">http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dfqr8rd5_676kxxxjhd&amp;hl=en</a> are not a<br>
&gt;problem.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Clearly people think that using the extlang model solves more<br>
&gt;problems than it causes, so it would be useful to example specific<br>
&gt;cases and see if that is, in fact, true.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mark<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
</div>

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Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 09:19:24 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "Martin Duerst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang
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You're right, that's the more complete description.
"zh-yue-Hans-MO"
=>
"yue-Hans-MO, yue-Hans, yue, zh"
=
"Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han-script-and-as-used-in-Macao
-but-then-fall-back-to-Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han-script-and then
fall-back-to-Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han-script-and
-then-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-indeterminent-script"

Mark

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:46 AM, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
wrote:

> At 13:14 08/05/29, Mark Davis wrote:
> >If identification is what you want, then "cmn" IS unambigously Mandarin
> (indeterminate script); "yue" is unambiguously Cantonese (indeterminate
> script); you certainly don't need extlang complicating matters.
> >
> >The string "zh-yue" is really a different semantic; it is not just
> Cantonese, it is "Cantonese-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously-Chinese-of-indeterminate-script"
> in lookup (but not some other operations like RFC 4646 filtering).
> >
> >And "zh-yue-Hant-MO" is "Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han
> -script-and-as-used-in-Macao-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously
> -Chinese-of-indeterminent-script", again, in lookup.
>
>
> Strictly speaking, wouldn't that be "Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han
> -script-and-as-used-in-Macao-but-then-fall-back-to-Cantone
> se-in-Simplified-Han-script-and then fall-back-to-Cantonese-in
> -Simplified-Han-script-and-then-fall-back-to-ambiguously
> -Chinese-of-indeterminent-script", in lookup?
>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
>
>
>
>
> #-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-#-#   http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
>
>


-- 
Mark

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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">You&#39;re right, that&#39;s the more complete description.</span><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">&quot;zh-yue-Hans-MO&quot;</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">=&gt;</span></div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">&quot;yue-Hans-MO, yue-Hans, yue, zh&quot;</span></span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">=</span></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; "><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">&quot;Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-script-and-as-used-in-Macao</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-but-then-fall-back-to-Cantone</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">se-in-Simplified-Han-script</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-and then fall-back-to-Cantonese-in</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-Simplified-Han-script-and</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-then-fall-back-to-ambiguously</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-Chinese-of-indeterminent</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-script&quot;</span></span></div>
</span></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br></span></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Mark<br>
</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br></span><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:46 AM, Martin Duerst &lt;<a href="mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="Ih2E3d"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">At 13:14 08/05/29, Mark Davis wrote:<br>

&gt;If identification is what you want, then &quot;cmn&quot; IS unambigously Mandarin (indeterminate script); &quot;yue&quot; is unambiguously Cantonese (indeterminate script); you certainly don&#39;t need extlang complicating matters.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt;The string &quot;zh-yue&quot; is really a different semantic; it is not just Cantonese, it is &quot;Cantonese-but-fall-back-to</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-ambiguously-Chinese-of</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-indeterminate-script&quot; in lookup (but not some other operations like RFC 4646 filtering).<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt;And &quot;zh-yue-Hant-MO&quot; is &quot;Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-script-and-as-used-in-Macao</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-but-fall-back-to-ambiguously</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-Chinese-of-indeterminent</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-script&quot;, again, in lookup.<br>
<br><br></span>


</div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">Strictly speaking, wouldn&#39;t that be &quot;Cantonese-in-Simplified-Han</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-script-and-as-used-in-Macao</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-but-then-fall-back-to-Cantone</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">se-in-Simplified-Han-script</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-and then fall-back-to-Cantonese-in</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-Simplified-Han-script-and</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-then-fall-back-to-ambiguously</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-Chinese-of-indeterminent</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">-script&quot;, in lookup?<br>
<br>
Regards, &nbsp; Martin.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
#-#-# &nbsp;Martin J. Du&quot;rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University<br>
#-#-# &nbsp;</span>





<a href="http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp" target="_blank"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp</span></a><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mailto:</span><a href="mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</span></a><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br>
<br></span>

</blockquote></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
</span></div></div>

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Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 09:38:45 -0700
From: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
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I've been thinking a bit about Addison's proposal; I've been at a
conference, and haven't had time to discuss it internally. I'll answer more
later, but one note on Shawn's approach:
We do already have a mechanism in the standard for dealing with
equivalences, one that people already have to handle.

That is to make one of them the Preferred-Value of the other. That is, we
could mandate that for all the extlang cases that we permit, like
"zh-yue..." and "yue...", both forms would be valid, and one would be the
Preferred-Value. That may actually be workable.

Mark

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:17 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> Shawn Steele scripsit:
>
> > I would either like that, or the same thing, except where cmn and yue
> > are allowed as aliases of zh-cmn & zh-yue
>
> We have a long-standing rule of reason that says no two subtags mean
> the same thing unless at least one of them is deprecated.  I'd be
> reluctant to break that for the sake of supposed processing advantages,
> since part of the Tao of the Internet is that the publisher never quite
> knows how the reader will use the published text (or metadata).
>
> --
> John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org   http://ccil.org/~cowan
> Assent may be registered by a signature, a handshake, or a click of a
> computer
> mouse transmitted across the invisible ether of the Internet. Formality
> is not a requisite; any sign, symbol or action, or even willful inaction,
> as long as it is unequivocally referable to the promise, may create a
> contract.
>       --Specht v. Netscape
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



-- 
Mark

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I&#39;ve been thinking a bit about Addison&#39;s proposal; I&#39;ve been at a conference, and haven&#39;t had time to discuss it internally. I&#39;ll answer more later, but one note on Shawn&#39;s approach:<div><br></div><div>
We do already have a mechanism in the standard for dealing with equivalences, one that people already have to handle.</div><div><br></div><div>That is to make one of them the Preferred-Value of the other. That is, we could mandate that for all the extlang cases that we permit, like &quot;zh-yue...&quot; and &quot;yue...&quot;, both forms would be valid, and one would be the Preferred-Value. That may actually be workable.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:17 PM, John Cowan &lt;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Shawn Steele scripsit:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
&gt; I would either like that, or the same thing, except where cmn and yue<br>
&gt; are allowed as aliases of zh-cmn &amp; zh-yue<br>
<br>
</div>We have a long-standing rule of reason that says no two subtags mean<br>
the same thing unless at least one of them is deprecated. &nbsp;I&#39;d be<br>
reluctant to break that for the sake of supposed processing advantages,<br>
since part of the Tao of the Internet is that the publisher never quite<br>
knows how the reader will use the published text (or metadata).<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
John Cowan &nbsp;<a href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a> &nbsp; <a href="http://ccil.org/~cowan" target="_blank">http://ccil.org/~cowan</a><br>
Assent may be registered by a signature, a handshake, or a click of a computer<br>
mouse transmitted across the invisible ether of the Internet. Formality<br>
is not a requisite; any sign, symbol or action, or even willful inaction,<br>
as long as it is unequivocally referable to the promise, may create a contract.<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --Specht v. Netscape<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark
</div>

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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 09:49:35 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
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Leif opined:
>
>
> > It means: it is not linked to "macrolanguage", a feature of ISO
> > 639-3. It is strictly recognition that past tagging practice
> > has used "zh-*" and "sgn-*". It has nothing to do with anything
> > else.
>
> So the currently grandfathered "zh-cmn" etc will remain
> grandfatherd.

No. It will be reclassified as redundant under this proposal.

> The tagger will find "zh" and "cmn"  separately, in
> order to construct "zh-cmn".

Yes.

> But when something has been tagged
> "zh-cmn", then it may be treated either as 'zh' with an extlang,
> or as an atomic tag. When treated as atomic, it is in reality
> treated as one of the grandfathered tags -- as long as it is a
> grandfathered tag.

No. It isn't "in reality treated as one of the grandfathered tags".

What I meant by atomic is that a sequence such as "zh-cmn" could be treated as if it were a single subtag. It is not required to be treated this way. But it is permitted. Thus the tag "zh-cmn-Hans-CN" contains four subtags (zh, cmn, Hans, CN), but some operations (notably the Lookup algorithm in RFC 4647) could treat the "zh-cmn" sequence as if it were a single subtag meaning "Mandarin Chinese".

>
> > You are proposing having TWO methods tagging the same language
> > variety, an idea that is antithetical to language tagging and
> > which presents more problems than it solves
>
>
> I meant that zh-* should be allowed not for strict compatibility
> reasons, as you said, but in order to tag macrolanguage
> relationship. Still one method, though. Of course, this means that
> sgn-* would  have to be allowed for another reason -- for the
> compatibility reason.

I know that's what *you* mean, but in my proposal we are cherry-picking 'zh' and the cherry-picking has nothing to do with its status as a macrolanguage. We are picking it purely because people have a long-standing association between the subtag 'zh' and the various Chinese languages and because those same people think that maintaining this tag-level relationship is of some value.

I think you might be ascribing too much meaning to the concept of macrolanguage. Macrolanguage records a particular relationship that exists between language *codes* assigned by ISO 639, which is that some language codes assigned by ISO 639-3 are encompassed by codes assigned previously to a broader range of languages. The macrolanguage has little  to do with the *actual* linguistic relationship between the encompassed languages (save that the association tends to exist because the languages are related somehow). Many languages that do not have a macrolanguage mapping are actually more closely related or mutually intelligible than some pairs of macrolanguage related languages.


>
> The text below serves as background for the following question: Is
> your proposal, that the language production might be read as
> atomic, only relevant for the Chinese tags? Or did you also have
> 'ar-*' and 'sgn-*' in mind?

:: sigh ::

My proposal was to allow/permit *some* processes to treat the primary-extlang combination as if it were atomic in *some* circumstances. In particular, I had in mind the lookup algorithm, where the fallback would be permitted to go like this:

zh-yue-Hans-CN
zh-yue-Hans
zh-yue
(default)

Or like this:

zh-yue-Hans-CN
zh-yue-Hans
zh-yue
zh-Hans-CN
zh-Hans
zh
(default)

Whereas the current behavior (which applies even to grandfathered tags) is:

zh-yue-Hans-CN
zh-yue-Hans
zh-yue
zh
(default)

>
> Background:
>
> The macrolangauge field came up, as I understood it, because there
> were no extlang. In Doug's draft, all encompassed language subtags
> have that field. Except the grandfathered tags "zh-cmn" etc.

The macrolanguage field in the registry is an informational field determined solely by the ISO 639-3 standard. All encompassed subtags have it, regardless of whether they would be permitted as extlang. *IF* we restore extlang, the grandfathered items that match extlang would become redundant. However, under the current draft (no-extlang), these are just grandfathered tags, similar to "no-nyn" and "i-enochian". In all cases, these tags would be deprecated in favor of non-atomic subtag sequences.

>
> But my question is: What macrolanguge information comes with
> 'zh-cmn' when it is read as an atomic?

You are confusing processing the tag and the meaning of specific subtags.

> The answer should be, that
> when read as an atomic --- grandfathered zh-cmn -- the registry
> says that it is a synonym of 'cmn'. The 'cmn' then has a
> Macrolanguaga field which might be used by the application in
> order to find 'zh' etc.

I think you are making a series of possibly-erroneous assumptions here.

First, any extlangs will have a field called "Prefix" that indicates what subtag they are required to follow. Thus, 'cmn' and its extlang kin will have a Prefix field with the value 'zh'. There is no need to use the Macrolanguage field to find this out, nor any dependency on any grandfathered tag. Similarly a subtag such as 'ase' (American Sign Language) could have a prefix of 'sgn'.

Some non-extlangs will have a Macrolanguage field. For example, 'nn' (Nynorsk) would have one, even though it is not an extlang and has no Prefix.

Secondly, the registry will NOT say that "zh-cmn" (considered as a redundant tag) is a synonym for 'cmn'. Redundant tags in the registry can be ignored because their meaning is otherwise assigned by individual subtags. If we were to keep the current setup (no extlang), the tag "zh-cmn" would remain grandfathered and would be deprecated in favor of 'cmn'. But this is *not* the same thing as being a synonym for it.

>
> However, if you read 'ar-*' or 'sgn-*' as an atomic, then there is
> no grandfathered tags that they match. And thus no place to find
> the macrolanguage information (for 'ar-*' -- unrelevant to 'sgn-*').

Grandfathered tags have nothing to do with this proposal. The fact that some would become redundant is a Good Thing. In any event, many more grandfathered tags would be either redundant or deprecated with any of the proposals on the table at present. Being valid (which these tags will remain forever) is not the same as being a good tagging choice (which most of the affected grandfathered tags will cease to be; redundant tags, of course, could be removed from the registry as they are merely historical curiosities).


Addison
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Phillips, Addison


> I think you might be ascribing too much meaning to the concept of
> macrolanguage. Macrolanguage records a particular relationship that
> exists between language *codes* assigned by ISO 639, which is that some
> language codes assigned by ISO 639-3 are encompassed by codes assigned
> previously to a broader range of languages. The macrolanguage has
> little  to do with the *actual* linguistic relationship between the
> encompassed languages (save that the association tends to exist because
> the languages are related somehow).

Well, a bit more than that: they have to be closely related. English and Hindi are related; many linguists consider Mandarin and Tibetan to be related. But these would never have been combined in a macrolanguage

But as for what can be assumed in terms of intelligibility between encompassed languages, your follow-on statement is certainly valid:

> Many languages that do not have a
> macrolanguage mapping are actually more closely related or mutually
> intelligible than some pairs of macrolanguage related languages.



Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal...
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Peter Constable 2008-05-30 23.52:
 >> From:  Phillips, Addison

>> [...] little to do with the *actual* linguistic relationship

 >
 > Well, a bit more than that: they have to be closely related.

 > But [...] your follow-on statement is certainly valid:
 >
 >> Many languages that do not have a macrolanguage mapping are
 >> actually more closely related or mutually intelligible than
 >> some pairs of macrolanguage related languages.

Since a request for macrolanguage A can be a request for language 
C even if it statistically more often is a request for language B, 
a macrolanguage situation *requires* fallbacks between defined -- 
but different -- languages, whether they are inteligible or not.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat May 31 05:41:12 2008
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Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 15:32:40 +0900
To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>,
	LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Subject: [Ltru] Off topic: Mutually intellegibile (was: Re: a modest
 proposal...)
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I don't expect this to contribute to the solution of the current
main discussion, so I have marked this off topic.

At 06:52 08/05/31, Peter Constable wrote:
>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Phillips, Addison
>
>
>> I think you might be ascribing too much meaning to the concept of
>> macrolanguage. Macrolanguage records a particular relationship that
>> exists between language *codes* assigned by ISO 639, which is that some
>> language codes assigned by ISO 639-3 are encompassed by codes assigned
>> previously to a broader range of languages. The macrolanguage has
>> little  to do with the *actual* linguistic relationship between the
>> encompassed languages (save that the association tends to exist because
>> the languages are related somehow).
>
>Well, a bit more than that: they have to be closely related. English and 
>Hindi are related; many linguists consider Mandarin and Tibetan to be 
>related. But these would never have been combined in a macrolanguage
>
>But as for what can be assumed in terms of intelligibility between 
>encompassed languages, your follow-on statement is certainly valid:
>
>> Many languages that do not have a
>> macrolanguage mapping are actually more closely related or mutually
>> intelligible than some pairs of macrolanguage related languages.

The term "mutually intellegible" has been used a lot, in my understanding
implicitly always with a binary yes/no implication.

In my experience, I understand "mutally intellegible" more in terms
of time. It may take me a few seconds to adapt to somebody's English
accent e.g. from California, slightly longer for somebody from Boston,
ever longer for New York or Texas, several minutes or close to an hour
to feel confident with an Australian or Indian accent, and so on. In
each case, it's not only accent, it's also some vocabulary shift.

It may then take me several days to start to understand some Duch,
and maybe several weeks for some of the Scandinavian languages,
although on the scale of days or weeks, I have more experience
with Romance languages.

Was/is there any consideration about such a scale when defining
languages e.g. for ISO-639-3?

Regards,    Martin.


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

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Thread-Topic: ISO 639 language code addition rules...
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All,

In preparing a proto-draft-15 that includes extlang, I note that in Section 3.4 (Stability), we have the rules for creating new values in the registry. The draft-09 rules and the draft-14 rules follow a sort of registration cascade:

 - if an ISO 639-1 code is created and it does not conflict with existing codes, register it
 - if an ISO 639-2 code is created and it does not conflict with existing codes, register it
 - if an ISO 639-3 code is created and it does not conflict with existing codes, register it

Previously we only allowed 639-3 codes to be created as extlangs and all of the extlang rules are attached to 639-3 (since the macrolanguage information comes from -3)

Now... if I understand correctly, ISO 639-2 is supposed to be a strict subset of ISO 639-3 going forward. So I would tend to propose the rules as follows:

 - if an ISO 639-1 code is assigned and it does not conflict with existing codes, register it.
       Note that languages given an ISO 639-1 code cannot be extlangs, even if enclosed by a macrolanguage
 - if an ISO 639-3 code is assigned and it does not conflict with existing codes, register it
 - if an ISO 639-2 code is somehow assigned and it does not conflict with existing codes, register it
       Note that this should never happen any more

Comments?

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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Martin Duerst scripsit:

> Was/is there any consideration about such a scale when defining
> languages e.g. for ISO-639-3?

See http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#I .  Of course a great deal
of individual judgement is required.

-- 
John Cowan   <cowan@ccil.org>   http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Try hanging up and phoning in again.'  --Beverly Erlebacher
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 12:27:25 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Doug Ewell


> I just want to make sure that we don't register the 639-2/3 code *'fob'
> for Foobazian, and then 639-1 assigns *'fb', and the only difference
> was
> coordination of announcements between the RAs.

If it's an addition to 639-1, then either it will already have been in 639-2, or it is being added to both simultaneously, and it would get announced together. It if is a new addition to 639-3, then likely it is not something that would make it into 639-1. In general, I expect new additions to 639-1 to be pretty rare.

I've suggested before that we could decide that we will never again register something from 639-1. That would eliminate these concerns entirely.



Peter
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp]


> The term "mutually intellegible" has been used a lot, in my
> understanding
> implicitly always with a binary yes/no implication.
>
> In my experience, I understand "mutally intellegible" more in terms
> of time...

> Was/is there any consideration about such a scale when defining
> languages e.g. for ISO-639-3?

Any language variety can be learned, given sufficient time and a sufficient level of interest and desire. There is, indeed, a gray scale here: it takes limited effort for a machinist from Maine to learn to communicate with his floor manager from South Carolina, and he's probably fairly motivated to do so; he's far less likely to learn to communicate with a Frisian (in Frisian) that asks him for directions on a street corner.

Somewhat correlated to the amount of time and ease in learning (though not necessarily motivations) variety A by a native speaker of variety B is the feasibility at devising an orthography and being able to produce literature that can be understood *readily and effectively* by speakers from both A and B. Of course, the skill of reading involves its own learning process, but depending on the distance between A and B there will be some additional learning cost on the part of A or B (or both) to learn to read a common literature.

(Of course, with audio publications, there is a direct correlation between time/ease of learning and how readily and effectively a publication intended for both can be understood.)

Now, obviously when talking about decisions that impacted ISO 639-3, it is relevant to consider decisions made in preparation of Ethnologue. Here, we should distinguish between developed languages with established literary traditions and undeveloped languages with no literary tradition (or traditions that died out some generations ago).

For the latter, an ideal development methodology strikes a balance between (a) clumping together many varieties to reduce the number of separate development projects involved, and (b) ensuring that literature really is effectively understood without costly and de-motivating barriers in literacy instruction. There are also other factors: e.g. speakers of B may understand A quite well, but also have very negative attitudes; and other social, political or economic factors may be significant. These are the kinds of considerations that have often been involved when input has been provided into Ethnologue, though I can't speak to how well and appropriately they have been evaluated in individual cases or how consistently across cases.

For the former, the language identities are generally a given, and when changes do occur, they are very often driven by socio-linguistic factors rather than purely linguistic ones (the analogy would be how motivated B would be to learn A rather than how long would it take).


Btw, an implication of the above is that it is mutual *non*-intelligibility that is generally most interesting. (If A is intelligible to speakers of B, they can potentially use resources prepared for A, whether or not B is intelligible to speakers of A. But if neither can understand resources prepared for the other, then separate resources are likely required.)



Peter




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>
> If it's an addition to 639-1, then either it will already have been in
> 639-2, or it is being added to both simultaneously, and it would get
> announced together. It if is a new addition to 639-3, then likely it is
> not something that would make it into 639-1. In general, I expect new
> additions to 639-1 to be pretty rare.

Um... what about my contention that parts 2 and 3 are synchronized? I assume that an addition to 639-2 would automatically also be added to 639-3, no?

>
> I've suggested before that we could decide that we will never again
> register something from 639-1. That would eliminate these concerns
> entirely.
>

It seems unlikely that we'll discover that many unknown languages that merit a 639-1 code, so this sounds sensible, as any future additions to 639-1 will probably be covered by the rule prohibiting assignments that match existing three letter codes.

Addison
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
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> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]


> Um... what about my contention that parts 2 and 3 are synchronized? I
> assume that an addition to 639-2 would automatically also be added to
> 639-3, no?

Indeed, unless it is a collection or is already in 639-3.



Peter
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Doug Ewell 2008-05-31 17.46:

> Martin Duerst <duerst at it dot aoyama dot ac dot jp> wrote:
> 
>> 2) All of Doug's postings (occasionally some others) seem to lose
>>   all their linebreaks when they arrive at my mailbox. Anybody has
>>   any idea why?
> 
> Outlook Express sends my mails as:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; 
> reply-type=original
> 
> but when I receive my own copies, and when I read them in the Web 
> archive, they are wrapped at or near 72 columns.  So I don't know why 
> Martin is seeing this.  Anyone else?

I too have the problem Martin described, but only with messages 
from Addison, Peter, Shawn, Karen and tex.

Perhaps the listserver can be set up to do something?
-- 
leif halvard silli
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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
References: <mailman.2253.1212256019.5108.ltru@ietf.org>
	<001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
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Doug wrote:

>at least when 639-5 is published (which
> I don't believe has happened yet).

ISO 639-5 was published on the 15/05/2008

Best

Debbie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: 31 May 2008 19:23
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
>
> "Phillips, Addison" <addison at amazon dot com> wrote:
>
> > Now... if I understand correctly, ISO 639-2 is supposed to
> be a strict
> > subset of ISO 639-3 going forward.
>
> I thought 639-2 was supposed to be a subset of (the union of
> 639-3 plus
> 639-5) going forward, at least when 639-5 is published (which
> I don't believe has happened yet).
>
> > So I would tend to propose the rules as follows:
> >
> > - [1] if an ISO 639-1 code is assigned and it does not
> conflict with
> > existing codes, register it.
> >       Note that languages given an ISO 639-1 code cannot be
> extlangs,
> > even if enclosed by a macrolanguage
> > - [2] if an ISO 639-3 code is assigned and it does not
> conflict with
> > existing codes, register it
>
> Where "existing codes" includes those just registered in
> accordance with [1] above, or about to be.  That is, if 639-3
> announces a new code, but their code lists show that it will
> also have a 2-letter 639-1 code, then we use the 2-letter
> code and not the 3-letter.  I don't know if this needs to be
> explicitly stated or not.
>
> I just want to make sure that we don't register the 639-2/3
> code *'fob'
> for Foobazian, and then 639-1 assigns *'fb', and the only
> difference was coordination of announcements between the RAs.
>
> > - [3] if an ISO 639-2 code is somehow assigned and it does not
> > conflict with existing codes, register it
> >       Note that this should never happen any more
>
> Unless I was right above about additional 639-5 codes making
> it into 639-2.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>




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From: "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: "'Doug Ewell'" <doug@ewellic.org>, "'LTRU Working Group'" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
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Hi Doug

BSI have a copy of ISO 639-5 and I am pretty sure that, whilst the standard
itself is not available freely, the code list is.

I can enquire if you like?

Best regards

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:doug@ewellic.org]
> Sent: 01 June 2008 01:07
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Cc: Debbie Garside
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
>
> Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing dot co dot uk> wrote:
>
> > ISO 639-5 was published on the 15/05/2008
>
> I hadn't realized that.  More to the point, I hadn't realized
> we had delayed quite that long.  ISO 639-5 was always one of
> those things that was regarded as being outside the scope of
> LTRU II since our deadlines were long before the scheduled
> publication of 639-5.
>
> Should we consider incorporating the 639-5 code elements into
> draft-4645bis?  There would be no architectural change to
> 4646bis, since we already have collection codes from 639-2;
> this would just add more of them.  I can do this relatively
> easily, if someone can provide me with a code list.  (I
> assume access to the full standard is not required.)
>
> I know some WG members will argue that collection codes are
> Evil, in which case I would respond that perhaps we need to
> think beyond Web servers and spell-checkers.  Our intent is
> for language tags to be useful for a wide variety of
> applications, and as far as I know -- despite the horror
> stories -- collection codes haven't caused major tagging
> problems since 2001 (publication date of RFC 3066, which
> first allowed them).
>
> At the very least, if we are going to continue to include the
> 639-2-only collection codes such as 'bad' and 'gem' but
> exclude the 639-5 ones, we should explain this decision in
> RFC 4646bis so it doesn't look like an oversight.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Arvada, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^
>
>
>
>
>




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Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> I thought 639-2 was supposed to be a subset of (the union of 639-3 plus 
> 639-5) going forward,

Correct.

> at least when 639-5 is published (which I don't believe has happened
> yet).

It has!  It went to 60.60 (published) state on May 15, and is now
available for the usual exorbitant price (CHF 102, about USD 98 or
EUR 63).

> I just want to make sure that we don't register the 639-2/3 code *'fob' 
> for Foobazian, and then 639-1 assigns *'fb', and the only difference was 
> coordination of announcements between the RAs.

No more 639-1 assignments will happen, except in the unlikely case that a
language is registered simultaneously in -1, -2, and -3 (which would imply
both that it is *not* now known to Ethnologue, and that it is important
enough to justify a 2-letter code, quod absurdum est.

So we can pretty much rule out new -1 code elements, and likewise new
-2 elements except perhaps for a new macrolanguage (but I doubt it).

-- 
As you read this, I don't want you to feel      John Cowan
sorry for me, because, I believe everyone       cowan@ccil.org
will die someday.                               http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
        --From a Nigerian-type scam spam
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
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> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Doug Ewell


> My only concern is that the words "simultaneously" and "together" might
> have a creative meaning when applied to two different RAs using their
> own public reporting mechanisms and philosophies.  Sometimes one RA
> makes a change that isn't reflected in the other 639 part for some time.

Unfortunately true; but on the other hand, the JAC secretary usually sends out mail notifications when changes are made, and I believe this list and IETF-languages are among those audiences to whom those mails are sent.



> > I've suggested before that we could decide that we will never again
> > register something from 639-1. That would eliminate these concerns
> > entirely.
>
> It might be better if ISO 639-1 instituted such a rule, instead of us.

Neither the JAC nor the 639-1/RA can institute a rule about practice for maintaining the LSTR. The JAC has a guideline not to add an alpha-2 in case an alpha-3 previously existed, though that is not a binding rule. The JAC has also informally agreed to adopt a very high bar for alpha-2 additions, making new alpha-2 additions less likely.



Peter
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
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Peter Constable scripsit:

> Neither the JAC nor the 639-1/RA can institute a rule about practice
> for maintaining the LSTR. The JAC has a guideline not to add an alpha-2
> in case an alpha-3 previously existed, though that is not a binding
> rule. The JAC has also informally agreed to adopt a very high bar for
> alpha-2 additions, making new alpha-2 additions less likely.

Given that, I think we should cease to add further alpha-2 codes.

-- 
John Cowan              cowan@ccil.org          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Any day you get all five woodpeckers is a good day.  --Elliotte Rusty Harold
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
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Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> <list>
>    <t>Codes assigned by ISO 639-1 that do not conflict with existing
>    two-letter primary language subtags and which have no corresponding
>    three-letter primary defined in the registry are entered into the
>    IANA registry as new records of type 'language'. Note that languages
>    given an ISO 639-1 code cannot be extended language subtags, even
>    if enclosed by a macrolanguage.</t>

As I just posted, I think this should say "no more 639-1 codes as of Date C."

>    <t>Codes assigned by ISO 639-3 that do not conflict with existing
>    three-letter primary language subtags and which do not have ISO
>    639-1 codes assigned are entered into the IANA registry as new
>    records of type 'language' or 'extlang'. Codes that have a defined
>    "macrolanguage" mapping at the time of their registration MUST
>    be entered into the registry as records of type 'extlang' with a
>    'Prefix' field containing the appropriate prefix tag. They MUST
>    also include a "Macrolanguage" field in their record. All other
>    records are of type 'language'.</t>

Presumably "a macrolanguage mapping to "zho" or "sgn".

>    <t>Any other codes assigned by ISO 639-2 that do not conflict with
>    existing three-letter primary or extended language subtags and which
>    do not have ISO 639-1 two-letter codes assigned are entered into the
>    IANA registry as new records of type 'language'. Subtags assigned
>    according to this rule will mostly be language collections.</t>

+1

And to this add:

<t>Any other codes assigned by ISO 639-5 that do not conflict with
existing three-letter primary or extended language subtags and which do
not have ISO 639-1 two-letter codes assigned are entered into the IANA
registry as new records of type 'language'. Subtags assigned according
to this rule will be language collections.

-- 
First known example of political correctness:   John Cowan
After Nurhachi had united all the other         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Jurchen tribes under the leadership of the      cowan@ccil.org
Manchus, his successor Abahai (1592-1643)
issued an order that the name Jurchen should       --S. Robert Ramsey,
be banned, and from then on, they were all           The Languages of China
to be called Manchus.
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> Should we consider incorporating the 639-5 code elements into 
> draft-4645bis?  

I think we should do so, despite 639-5 being technically off-charter.

> I know some WG members will argue that collection codes are Evil, in 
> which case I would respond that perhaps we need to think beyond Web 
> servers and spell-checkers.  Our intent is for language tags to be 
> useful for a wide variety of applications, and as far as I know --  
> despite the horror stories -- collection codes haven't caused major 
> tagging problems since 2001 (publication date of RFC 3066, which first 
> allowed them).

+1 for this reasoning.

By my highly unofficial count, there are 49 new code elements in the
current 639-5 registry, which is embedded in the International Standard.
There are no exact definitions of either the old 639-2 or the new language
collections, but if we identify them with their obvious counterparts
from the Ethnologue, I think these six cases require special consideration:

1) 'euq' codes "Basque (family)".  The Ethnologue lists three languages
in this family, but ISO 639-3 has folded two of them into 'eu', Basque
proper.  The next edition of the Ethnologue will presumably follow.
So 'euq' and 'eu' have the same denotation even though they have
different scopes.  Strong recommendation: exclude 'euq'.

2) 'hyx' represents "Armenian (family)".  Ethnologue shows only one
language in this family.  So 'hyx' and 'hy' have the same denotation even
though they have different scopes.  Strong recommendation: exclude 'hyx'.

3) 'jpx' represents "Japanese (family)".  Ethnologue shows 12 languages in
this family, of which Japanese proper is dominant.  Strong recommendation:
include 'jpx'.

4) 'qwe' represents "Quechuan (family)".  Ethnologue shows 46 languages
in this family, of which all but two (Inga 'inb' and Jungle Inga 'inj'
are included in the macrolanguage 'qu'.  (Presumably these two are
excluded because they do not have "Quechua" or "Quichua" in their names.)
Weak recommendation: exclude 'qwe'.

5) 'sqj' represents "Albanian (family)".  Ethnologue shows four languages
(aln, aae, aat, als) in this family; however, the macrolanguage 'sq'
encompasses these four languages.  So 'sqj' and 'sq' have the same
denotation even though they have different scopes.  Strong recommendation:
exclude 'sqj'.

6) 'zhx' represents "Chinese (family)".  Ethnologue shows 14 languages
in this family; however, the macrolanguage 'zh' encompasses all but one
of these (Dungan 'dng').  (Dungan is excluded because it does not have
"Chinese" in its name.)  Weak recommendation: exclude 'zhx'.

> At the very least, if we are going to continue to include the 639-2-only
> collection codes such as 'bad' and 'gem' but exclude the 639-5 ones,
> we should explain this decision in RFC 4646bis so it doesn't look like
> an oversight.

+1 to that too.

-- 
John Cowan    http://ccil.org/~cowan  cowan@ccil.org
The Penguin shall hunt and devour all that is crufty, gnarly and
bogacious; all code which wriggles like spaghetti, or is infested with
blighting creatures, or is bound by grave and perilous Licences shall it
capture.  And in capturing shall it replicate, and in replicating shall
it document, and in documentation shall it bring freedom, serenity and
most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein.  --Gospel of Tux
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