From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 04:43:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD9A28C125; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 04:43:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84AE528C11E for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 04:43:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cIgePzjqFbTM for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 04:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5524828C125 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 04:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33907 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1K2lxi-0002ot-7o for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 13:42:58 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:42:55 +0200 Message-ID: <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Thread-Index: AcjDe2+N+Xgx5IJWQti9WyedWndN7AAXSSYg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1K2lxi-0002ot-7o. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1K2lxi-0002ot-7o b3e6d08cf9ce1fb0beacb7ea25341f70 Subject: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > I know some WG members will argue that collection codes are Evil, in > which case I would respond that perhaps we need to think beyond Web > servers and spell-checkers. Our intent is for language tags to be > useful for a wide variety of applications, and as far as I know -- > despite the horror stories -- collection codes haven't caused major > tagging problems since 2001 (publication date of RFC 3066, > which first allowed them). I assume that for -5 there is a rule that the codes are in the same "namespace" as 639-3 codes. In that case, I would not at all mind including the "new" -5 code elements (but I'm a bit hesitant to exclude some of them based on a not-sure-to-be-correct coverage analysis). I also don't mind making collection/family codes inclusive, i.e. exclude the "(other)", as Peter mentioned. But I would like some firmer recording in the LSR of the fact that a code is a collection/family code (rather than relying on "languages" or "(family)" being part of the name, or just referring back to 639-5). Something like "Type: language collection" or similar. Pushing this a bit, macrolanguages should similarly be explicitly recorded as such (rather than just implicitly), by something like "Type: macrolanguage" instead of just "Type: language". I know there is a way of inferring this information, but it is better to be explicit, and not need to infer that information or refer back to the -3 registry. IIUC, this would leave "Type: language" for individual languages only. I'm not suggesting any formal restrictions on the use of language collection/family codes, beyond the informal warning we have already. I'm sure some of the (non-new) collection codes have been used to language tag documents in languages not covered by the LSR yet (but will be, once LTRU II finishes...) with an individual language code. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 05:04:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D418528C2A3; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 05:04:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F1A28C349 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 05:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.489, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hSrxz278T1fg for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 05:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D45128C26D for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 05:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m51C1KeZ016792; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:01:20 +0200 Message-ID: <48428F81.8020209@malform.no> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:01:05 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kent Karlsson References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> In-Reply-To: <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Kent Karlsson 2008-06-01 13.42: > Doug Ewell wrote: >> I know some WG members will argue that collection codes are Evil, in >> which case I would respond that perhaps we need to think beyond Web >> servers and spell-checkers. [...] +1 for including collection codes. > [...] I also don't mind making collection/family codes inclusive, > i.e. exclude the "(other)", as Peter mentioned. +1 for inclusive collection/family codes > But I would like some firmer recording in the LSR of the fact that a > code is a collection/family code (rather than relying on "languages" > or "(family)" being part of the name, or just referring back to 639-5). > Something like "Type: language collection" or similar. Pushing this a > bit, macrolanguages should similarly be explicitly recorded as such > (rather than just implicitly), by something like "Type: macrolanguage" > instead of just "Type: language". I know there is a way of inferring > this information, but it is better to be explicit, and not need to > infer that information or refer back to the -3 registry. IIUC, this > would leave "Type: language" for individual languages only. +1 one for "Type: macrolanguage" and "Type: language collection". Being explicist is good. For example, the "no" code cannot be used for spell-checking unless you assume that it means either "nn" or "nb". > I'm not suggesting any formal restrictions on the use of language > collection/family codes, And not on macrolanguage codes either. > beyond the informal warning we have already. > I'm sure some of the (non-new) collection codes have been used to > language tag documents in languages not covered by the LSR yet > (but will be, once LTRU II finishes...) with an individual language > code. +1 for not having any formal restrictions. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 06:21:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8855C28C4AF; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 06:21:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D6F028C4B1 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 06:21:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KTGIIdkxh62J for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 06:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9D828CC62 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 05:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 05:39:12 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 05:39:12 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 05:39:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) Thread-Index: AcjDe2+N+Xgx5IJWQti9WyedWndN7AAXSSYgAAJMqpA= Message-ID: References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> In-Reply-To: <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Kent Karlsson > But I would like some firmer recording in the LSR of the fact that a > code is a collection/family code (rather than relying on "languages" > or "(family)" being part of the name, or just referring back to 639-5). > Something like "Type: language collection" or similar. Pushing this a > bit, macrolanguages should similarly be explicitly recorded as such > (rather than just implicitly), by something like "Type: macrolanguage" > instead of just "Type: language". I know there is a way of inferring > this information, but it is better to be explicit, and not need to > infer that information or refer back to the -3 registry. IIUC, this > would leave "Type: language" for individual languages only. If this sounds a bit familiar, we did discuss this back in ancient times -- Nov 2006. The 639-3 code tables were first getting checked out, and Mark Davis commented on what he thought should be included or excluded in the LSTR. The scope attribute (which is the one you're mentioning) is one that Mark thought wasn't needed since it could be derived. John Cowan concurred. Randy mentioned feature creep in relation to some other info, but didn't make a clear link between that comment and the scope attribute. Doug made mixed comments: he agreed that scope was derivable hence not needed, but also suggested adding _collection_ to Type information. But then we got sidetracked onto Swiss German. I' haven't seen if we ever decided against that or just forgot about it. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:04:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8944128D5A8; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:04:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE7A28D64D for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:04:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v5klynfdp8yS for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E45828D54C for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33821 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1K2tOG-0000lk-81; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 21:38:52 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'Phillips, Addison'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:38:49 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Thread-Index: AcjDe2+N+Xgx5IJWQti9WyedWndN7AAXSSYgAAsADoAABOYWgA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1K2tOG-0000lk-81. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1K2tOG-0000lk-81 8749b408d19124d4be13738a8d2b4a44 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison wrote: > > I generally agree with the idea that having some of this > ancillary information in the registry would be useful. > However, the 'Type' field isn't the way to do this. The > 'Type' field indicates what kind of subtag it is. > > Instead, I would suggest that we include some more > meta-information in specific fields in the registry. For > example, we could have a 'Source' field to indicate where a > record came from and an Attribute field for derived > attributes. Here's what our record collection might contain: > > Type: language | extlang | script | region | variant | grandfathered | redundant Well, I still hope that the extlang stuff is not really coming back... > Subtag | Tag: > Added: > Deprecated: > Prefix: > Suppress-Script: > Description: > Source: ISO639-1 | ISO639-2 | ISO639-3 | ISO639-5 | ISO3166-1 | ISO15924 | registration ISO639-2 would be retargeted (per "Type: language" subtag) as either ISO639-3 or ISO639-5 now, would they not? Given that, IIUC, the codes in ISO 639-2 by necessity are also registered as ISO 639-3 or ISO 639-5 codes, and LTRU II are retargeting from ISO 639-2 to ISO 639-3 and (hopefully also) ISO 639-5. UNM49 (or similar "source code") should be there too, should it not? > Attribute: macrolanguage | collection | ... Maybe "Kind: individual | macrolanguage | collection" (required for "Type: language", not allowed for other "Type"s. I would not recommend anything similar for, say, region codes. Nit: And move it up to just after "Type". /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:17:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E0628CA58; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE9E28D57C for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:15:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PsB0ylbxD2Cf for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2678128D4D2 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K2tF1-0003EO-UD; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:29:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:29:19 -0400 To: Leif Halvard Silli Message-ID: <20080601192919.GI13810@mercury.ccil.org> References: <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <48428F81.8020209@malform.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48428F81.8020209@malform.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Leif Halvard Silli scripsit: > +1 one for "Type: macrolanguage" and "Type: language collection". > > Being explicist is good. For example, the "no" code cannot be used > for spell-checking unless you assume that it means either "nn" or > "nb". The same is true of "en" and "de". -- Where the wombat has walked, John Cowan it will inevitably walk again. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:18:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296273A6FD9; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:18:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088F928D574 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:16:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.143 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.143 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.456, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mENmiSAhfI07 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF5728D62B for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m51JwNOl024902; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:58:24 +0200 Message-ID: <4842FF5F.1020803@malform.no> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 21:58:23 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan References: <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <48428F81.8020209@malform.no> <20080601192919.GI13810@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080601192919.GI13810@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan 2008-06-01 21.29: > Leif Halvard Silli scripsit: > >> +1 one for "Type: macrolanguage" and "Type: language collection". >> >> Being explicist is good. For example, the "no" code cannot be used >> for spell-checking unless you assume that it means either "nn" or >> "nb". > > The same is true of "en" and "de". You mean that you cannot use "en" to spellcheck "de" unless you assume that "en" means "de". However, with 'no' there is a very likely risk that someone thinks that 'no' is spesific enough. And that, or similar risks, exist for all macrolanguages. The same is not true of "en" and "de". -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:28:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75BA53A700E; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD083A6F6F for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:28:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SjQyA+YskqmS for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [217.70.190.232]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF1728D546 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 95E7B33349; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:38:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3744CC8B92; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:34:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:34:27 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: John Cowan Message-ID: <20080601193427.GA15941@sources.org> References: <20080527000859.7a70d079@sil-mh4> <20080526200237.GA19588@sources.org> <20080527140411.GB18303@mercury.ccil.org> <20080527194323.GA16248@sources.org> <20080527200607.GD27379@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080527200607.GD27379@mercury.ccil.org> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang for users X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 04:06:07PM -0400, John Cowan wrote a message of 18 lines which said: > Are there any obvious errors in the English version? No. No problem. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:29:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 615533A6DD1; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:29:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614773A6E3C for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:28:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K3gaAJThmp44 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2BC28C0E8 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K2sDN-0004xp-6N; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:23:33 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:23:33 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080601182333.GB13810@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <20080601074532.GH20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009401c8c410$4840b460$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <009401c8c410$4840b460$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > Arrggh. I hate all this cherry-picking, even though it seems to be our > only path to internal agreement: no extlangs except for 'zh-*' (and > maybe 'sgn-*' and 'ar-*', we can't decide), no more ISO 639-1 codes even > if ISO assigns them, add ISO 639-5 codes except for these five. I should point out that these six are a subset of the ones that 639-5 calls out as possibly problematic. The other three they footnote have to do with a dispute about whether "Caucasian" is a genetic grouping or not, but we don't care about whether collections are genetic, areal, name-based, or what. > I should add the one where we add ISO 3166 exceptionally reserved codes > except 'UK', which is actually an exception to an exception. At least > that one is based on a rule we already have about not adding exact > duplicates at registration time; it applies the rule to RFC 4645bis > publication time as well. Still, it is yet another exception from the > ISO standards. What would be the point of having a separate standard from ISO if we didn't deviate from it from time to time? :-) -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Most people are much more ignorant about language than they are about [other subjects], but they reckon that because they can talk and read and write, their opinions about talking and reading and writing are as well informed as anybody's. And since I have DNA, I'm entitled to carry on at length about genetics without bothering to learn anything about it. Not. --Mark Liberman _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:30:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE1B28C638; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:30:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED92628C383 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:29:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.657 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.657 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zfVezOnwBMBD for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CCF3A6EA1 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="56823841" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jun 2008 18:11:21 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m51IBLAC029759 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:11:21 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:11:20 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:10:04 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjEEbsI9eToi6azSnC0HuoVk6sMXAAALcKw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21DA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A91065C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601070552.GG20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009801c8c411$b8f43780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <009801c8c411$b8f43780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > I think the idea was, all ISO 639-3 encompassed languages should be > added to the LSR with a "Macrolanguage" field, but only those with > a > macrolanguage mapping to 'zho' (and did we decide about 'ara'?) > should > be extlangs. This should be clarified. I presented this as an idea for resolving the impasse we seem to face, but it hasn't been ratified anywhere as yet. I think it garnered some support, but await the co-chairs recognition of it as a rough consensus item. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:32:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C059A28C345; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:32:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46DB3A6ACA for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.610, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EhSPpFVvSmSX for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.182]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9289428D227 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20680 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 18:45:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.182) with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2008 18:45:13 -0000 Message-ID: <00de01c8c417$a06a6bc0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:45:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDxwZXRlcmNvbiBhdCBtaWNyb3NvZnQgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGUgKHNv cnJ5IGZvciB0aGUgCmxlbmd0aCBvZiBxdW90YXRpb25hbCBtYXRlcmlhbCk6Cgo+PiBCdXQgSSB3 b3VsZCBsaWtlIHNvbWUgZmlybWVyIHJlY29yZGluZyBpbiB0aGUgTFNSIG9mIHRoZSBmYWN0IHRo YXQgYSAKPj4gY29kZSBpcyBhIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24vZmFtaWx5IGNvZGUgKHJhdGhlciB0aGFuIHJl bHlpbmcgb24gImxhbmd1YWdlcyIgCj4+IG9yICIoZmFtaWx5KSIgYmVpbmcgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUg bmFtZSwgb3IganVzdCByZWZlcnJpbmcgYmFjayB0byAKPj4gNjM5LTUpLiBTb21ldGhpbmcgbGlr ZSAiVHlwZTogbGFuZ3VhZ2UgY29sbGVjdGlvbiIgb3Igc2ltaWxhci4gCj4+IFB1c2hpbmcgdGhp cyBhIGJpdCwgbWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZXMgc2hvdWxkIHNpbWlsYXJseSBiZSBleHBsaWNpdGx5IAo+ 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aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:34:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7063A6D76; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:34:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD2028C5A4 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:31:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4RgMtnMQFn5l for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9F028D4B2 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K2tD9-00034L-Gw; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:27:23 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:27:23 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080601192723.GH13810@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <20080601074532.GH20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009401c8c410$4840b460$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <20080601182333.GB13810@mercury.ccil.org> <010c01c8c41c$4efd9870$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <010c01c8c41c$4efd9870$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > If we want to exclude things, I would rather create a rule that says, > for example, "collection codes are excluded if they have only one member > which is already encoded as an individual language," as opposed to just > excluding it ad hoc. That way people can debate the rule, not the > expertise of the WG members. I'm okay with that as a PR measure (along with "if their members are already coded as a macrolanguage"), but as I carefully said, there is no *official* list of which languages are in what collections. Ethnologue serves as a guideline, but it is not directly part of 639. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Promises become binding when there is a meeting of the minds and consideration is exchanged. So it was at King's Bench in common law England; so it was under the common law in the American colonies; so it was through more than two centuries of jurisprudence in this country; and so it is today. --Specht v. Netscape _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:35:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CB528C7F6; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:35:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE163A6A21 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.156 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.156 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.442, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LvJDcWnQ5YTa for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout09.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout09-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 142323A6E3F for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14725 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 18:02:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout09-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.17) with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2008 18:02:58 -0000 Message-ID: <009801c8c411$b8f43780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A91065C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601070552.GG20373@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:02:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sm9obiBDb3dhbiA8Y293YW4gYXQgY2NpbCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3cm90ZToKCj4+ICAgIENvZGVzIHRo YXQgaGF2ZSBhIGRlZmluZWQKPj4gICAgIm1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UiIG1hcHBpbmcgYXQgdGhlIHRp bWUgb2YgdGhlaXIgcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uIE1VU1QKPj4gICAgYmUgZW50ZXJlZCBpbnRvIHRoZSBy ZWdpc3RyeSBhcyByZWNvcmRzIG9mIHR5cGUgJ2V4dGxhbmcnIHdpdGggYQo+PiAgICAnUHJlZml4 JyBmaWVsZCBjb250YWluaW5nIHRoZSBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBwcmVmaXggdGFnLiBUaGV5IE1VU1QK Pj4gICAgYWxzbyBpbmNsdWRlIGEgIk1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UiIGZpZWxkIGluIHRoZWlyIHJlY29y ZC4gQWxsIG90aGVyCj4+ICAgIHJlY29yZHMgYXJlIG9mIHR5cGUgJ2xhbmd1YWdlJy48L3Q+Cj4K PiBQcmVzdW1hYmx5ICJhIG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UgbWFwcGluZyB0byAiemhvIiBvciAic2duIi4K CkkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIGlkZWEgd2FzLCBhbGwgSVNPIDYzOS0zIGVuY29tcGFzc2VkIGxhbmd1YWdl cyBzaG91bGQgYmUgCmFkZGVkIHRvIHRoZSBMU1Igd2l0aCBhICJNYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlIiBmaWVs ZCwgYnV0IG9ubHkgdGhvc2Ugd2l0aCBhIAptYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlIG1hcHBpbmcgdG8gJ3pobycg KGFuZCBkaWQgd2UgZGVjaWRlIGFib3V0ICdhcmEnPykgc2hvdWxkIApiZSBleHRsYW5ncy4gIFRo aXMgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGNsYXJpZmllZC4KCj4gQW5kIHRvIHRoaXMgYWRkOgo+Cj4gPHQ+QW55IG90 aGVyIGNvZGVzIGFzc2lnbmVkIGJ5IElTTyA2MzktNSB0aGF0IGRvIG5vdCBjb25mbGljdCB3aXRo IAo+IGV4aXN0aW5nIHRocmVlLWxldHRlciBwcmltYXJ5IG9yIGV4dGVuZGVkIGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1 YnRhZ3MgYW5kIHdoaWNoIAo+IGRvIG5vdCBoYXZlIElTTyA2MzktMSB0d28tbGV0dGVyIGNvZGVz IGFzc2lnbmVkIGFyZSBlbnRlcmVkIGludG8gdGhlIAo+IElBTkEgcmVnaXN0cnkgYXMgbmV3IHJl Y29yZHMgb2YgdHlwZSAnbGFuZ3VhZ2UnLiBTdWJ0YWdzIGFzc2lnbmVkIAo+IGFjY29yZGluZyB0 byB0aGlzIHJ1bGUgd2lsbCBiZSBsYW5ndWFnZSBjb2xsZWN0aW9ucy4KCisxLiAgSSBndWVzcyBp dCB3aWxsIGJlIGNsZWFyIHRvIHJlYWRlcnMgdGhhdCB0aGUgbGFzdCBzZW50ZW5jZSBpcyAKaW5m b3JtYXRpdmUgb25seS4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAg KiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3 MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2 ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QK THRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:35:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B8E28C556; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:35:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD7A28C1C3 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:32:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.259 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.259 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.339, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id za6qCkphkVpY for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.99]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3BE3F28D458 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28328 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 19:20:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.99) with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2008 19:20:26 -0000 Message-ID: <010e01c8c41c$8bd0bb60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:20:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDxwZXRlcmNvbiBhdCBtaWNyb3NvZnQgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IFRodXMsIGlmIHdlIHdhbnQgdG8gZ2V0IHJpZCBvZiBleGNsdXNpdmUgY29sbGVjdGlvbnMsIGl0 IGxvb2tzIGxpa2Ugd2UgCj4gc2hvdWxkIHByb2JhYmx5IHJlZmVyZW5jZSA2MzktNS4KPgo+IEJl dHdlZW4gNjM5LTUgYW5kIDYzOS0zLCBpdCBsb29rcyBsaWtlIDYzOS0yIHdvdWxkIGJlIHJlZHVu ZGFudCBmb3IgCj4gb3VyIHB1cnBvc2VzLgoKSSBkb24ndCBkaXNhZ3JlZS4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdl bGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0 cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0 cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:35:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D2528C55C; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B3328C3A6 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.281 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.281 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.317, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ci9RDbOEoX8 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 35CE228D26E for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11533 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 18:49:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.22) with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2008 18:49:51 -0000 Message-ID: <00e401c8c418$461464e0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A91065C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601070552.GG20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009801c8c411$b8f43780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21DA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601182049.GA13810@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21E1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:49:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEkgc3VwcG9ydCAnc2duJy4uLiBJIGFsc28gbm90ZSB0aGF0IGl0IHdhcyBpbiBkcmFmdC0wOSAo ZHJhZnQtMTAgCj4gcmVtb3ZlZCBleHRsYW5nKSwgc28gSSdtIGhhdmluZyB0byBkZWFsIHdpdGgg aXQgYXMgYSBwcmV2aW91cyAKPiBjb25zZW5zdXMgaXRlbS4KCldlIGp1c3QgbmVlZCB0byBiZSBj bGVhciB0aGF0ICdzZ24nIGFzIGEgcHJlZml4IGZvciBleHRsYW5ncyB3b3VsZCBiZSAKb3VyIG93 biBkb2luZywgYW5kIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSBiYXNlZCBvbiAnc2duJyBiZWluZyBhbiBJU08gNjM5 LTMgCm1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UsIHNpbmNlIGl0IGlzIG5vdCBvbmUuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAq ICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93 d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNo YXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRm LWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:37:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC93F3A6EA9; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:37:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAAFD3A6D23 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:33:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vmVS9x9AeQzD for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF4A28D0CF for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,630,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="45738941" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jun 2008 18:28:05 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m51IS2sw015713 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:28:03 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:28:02 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:28:00 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjEFDvIh2jvwiqrSCeiqoAemBK1wAAAN2ig Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21E1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A91065C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601070552.GG20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009801c8c411$b8f43780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21DA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601182049.GA13810@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080601182049.GA13810@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I support 'sgn'... I also note that it was in draft-09 (draft-10 removed extlang), so I'm having to deal with it as a previous consensus item. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 11:21 AM > To: Phillips, Addison > Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group; John Cowan > Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... > > Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > > I presented this as an idea for resolving the impasse we seem to > face, > > but it hasn't been ratified anywhere as yet. I think it garnered > > some support, but await the co-chairs recognition of it as a > rough > > consensus item. > > Among the people who are willing to compromise at all, I think > there is > strong support for 'zh', weak support for 'sgn' (maybe only from > me), > and no support for 'ar' (you mentioned it as a hypothetical). > > -- > An observable characteristic is not necessarily John Cowan > a functional requirement. --John Hudson > cowan@ccil.org _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:38:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F463A6ECE; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:38:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53CEC3A6CC4 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:34:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.64 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.64 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9CnIc981vj-O for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EB43A6F61 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K2sAj-0004lw-FZ; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:20:49 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:20:49 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080601182049.GA13810@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A91065C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601070552.GG20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009801c8c411$b8f43780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21DA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21DA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > I presented this as an idea for resolving the impasse we seem to face, > but it hasn't been ratified anywhere as yet. I think it garnered > some support, but await the co-chairs recognition of it as a rough > consensus item. Among the people who are willing to compromise at all, I think there is strong support for 'zh', weak support for 'sgn' (maybe only from me), and no support for 'ar' (you mentioned it as a hypothetical). -- An observable characteristic is not necessarily John Cowan a functional requirement. --John Hudson cowan@ccil.org _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:47:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176613A6F2E; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:47:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9877928C247 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:40:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.638 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.638 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6XaNb51xu3kI for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DAC28D390 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K2suu-0001Ea-JJ; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:08:32 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:08:32 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20080601190832.GE13810@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > Between 639-5 and 639-3, it looks like 639-2 would be redundant for > our purposes. Almost. The four special code elements 'mis', 'mul', 'und', and 'zxx' are in -2 but not -5 or -3, and in principle new code elements of this type could be added to -2. So we can't completely exclude adding subtags from -2. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Sound change operates regularly to produce irregularities; analogy operates irregularly to produce regularities. --E.H. Sturtevant, ca. 1945, probably at Yale _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:47:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5167C3A6F3C; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:47:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5908528C247 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.297, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vQJEmqEIvMZh for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.182]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 785A128D052 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26588 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 17:52:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.182) with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2008 17:52:39 -0000 Message-ID: <009401c8c410$4840b460$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <20080601074532.GH20373@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:52:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sm9obiBDb3dhbiA8Y293YW4gYXQgY2NpbCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3cm90ZToKCj4+IFNob3VsZCB3ZSBj b25zaWRlciBpbmNvcnBvcmF0aW5nIHRoZSA2MzktNSBjb2RlIGVsZW1lbnRzIGludG8gCj4+IGRy YWZ0LTQ2NDViaXM/Cj4KPiBJIHRoaW5rIHdlIHNob3VsZCBkbyBzbywgZGVzcGl0ZSA2MzktNSBi ZWluZyB0ZWNobmljYWxseSBvZmYtY2hhcnRlci4KCkhlY2ssIHdlJ3ZlIHNwZW50IGEgZ3JlYXQg ZGVhbCBvZiB0aGUgcGFzdCB0d28geWVhcnMgZ29pbmcgb2ZmLWNoYXJ0ZXIuIApUaGlzIGlzIGF0 IGxlYXN0IG1vcmUgY2xvc2VseSByZWxhdGVkIHRvIGNoYXJ0ZXIgd29yayB0aGFuIHNvbWUgdGhp bmdzIAp3ZSd2ZSBkb25lLgoKPiBUaGVyZSBhcmUgbm8gZXhhY3QgZGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgb2YgZWl0 aGVyIHRoZSBvbGQgNjM5LTIgb3IgdGhlIG5ldyAKPiBsYW5ndWFnZSBjb2xsZWN0aW9ucywgYnV0 IGlmIHdlIGlkZW50aWZ5IHRoZW0gd2l0aCB0aGVpciBvYnZpb3VzIAo+IGNvdW50ZXJwYXJ0cyBm cm9tIHRoZSBFdGhub2xvZ3VlLCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZXNlIHNpeCBjYXNlcyByZXF1aXJlIAo+IHNw ZWNpYWwgY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbjoKCkFycmdnaC4gIEkgaGF0ZSBhbGwgdGhpcyBjaGVycnktcGlj a2luZywgZXZlbiB0aG91Z2ggaXQgc2VlbXMgdG8gYmUgb3VyIApvbmx5IHBhdGggdG8gaW50ZXJu YWwgYWdyZWVtZW50OiBubyBleHRsYW5ncyBleGNlcHQgZm9yICd6aC0qJyAoYW5kIAptYXliZSAn c2duLSonIGFuZCAnYXItKicsIHdlIGNhbid0IGRlY2lkZSksIG5vIG1vcmUgSVNPIDYzOS0xIGNv ZGVzIGV2ZW4gCmlmIElTTyBhc3NpZ25zIHRoZW0sIGFkZCBJU08gNjM5LTUgY29kZXMgZXhjZXB0 IGZvciB0aGVzZSBmaXZlLgoKSSBzaG91bGQgYWRkIHRoZSBvbmUgd2hlcmUgd2UgYWRkIElTTyAz MTY2IGV4Y2VwdGlvbmFsbHkgcmVzZXJ2ZWQgY29kZXMgCmV4Y2VwdCAnVUsnLCB3aGljaCBpcyBh Y3R1YWxseSBhbiBleGNlcHRpb24gdG8gYW4gZXhjZXB0aW9uLiAgQXQgbGVhc3QgCnRoYXQgb25l IGlzIGJhc2VkIG9uIGEgcnVsZSB3ZSBhbHJlYWR5IGhhdmUgYWJvdXQgbm90IGFkZGluZyBleGFj dCAKZHVwbGljYXRlcyBhdCByZWdpc3RyYXRpb24gdGltZTsgaXQgYXBwbGllcyB0aGUgcnVsZSB0 byBSRkMgNDY0NWJpcyAKcHVibGljYXRpb24gdGltZSBhcyB3ZWxsLiAgU3RpbGwsIGl0IGlzIHll dCBhbm90aGVyIGV4Y2VwdGlvbiBmcm9tIHRoZSAKSVNPIHN0YW5kYXJkcy4KCkkgYW0gcmVtaW5k ZWQgdGhhdCBiYWNrIGluIGxhdGUgMjAwNCwgd2hlbiB0aGUgaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgZ3JvdXAg aGFkIAphbHJlYWR5IHdvcmtlZCBvbiAzMDY2YmlzIChhcyBhbiBpbmRpdmlkdWFsIHN1Ym1pc3Np b24pIGZvciBvdmVyIGEgeWVhciAKYW5kIGl0IHdlbnQgdG8gSUVURiBMYXN0IENhbGwsIHdlIHdl cmUgaGFyc2hseSBjcml0aWNpemVkIGZvciAKY2hlcnJ5LXBpY2tpbmcgSVNPIGNvdW50cnkgY29k ZXMuICAoVGhlIG1haW4gZm9jdXMgYXQgdGhlIHRpbWUgd2FzIG9uIAppbnRlcnByZXRpbmcgJ0NT JyBhcyBDemVjaG9zbG92YWtpYSB2ZXJzdXMgU2VyYmlhIGFuZCBNb250ZW5lZ3JvOyB3ZSAKZGlk bid0IGhhdmUgdGhlIERhdGUgQS9CIHRoaW5nIHdvcmtlZCBvdXQgeWV0LikgIFdlIHdlcmUgY3Jp dGljaXplZCBmb3IgCmFwcGVhcmluZyB0byB0YWtlIG92ZXIgdGhlIHJvbGUgb2YgSVNPIE1BcyBh bmQgUkFzLCBzZWNvbmQtZ3Vlc3NpbmcgCndoaWNoIElTTyBjb2RlcyBzaG91bGQgYW5kIHNob3Vs ZCBub3QgZXhpc3QgYW5kIHdoYXQgdGhleSBzaG91bGQgbWVhbi4gCkl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgcmVh bCBzaGFtZSBpZiB0aGlzIGhhcHBlbmVkIGFnYWluLgoKU2luY2UgdGhpcyBXRyBpcyB1bmRlciB0 aGUgdGhyZWF0IG9mIGJlaW5nIHNodXQgZG93biAtLSBJIGtub3cgUmFuZHkgCnByb2JhYmx5IGlu dGVuZHMgaXQgbW9yZSBhcyBhIG1vdGl2YXRvciB0aGFuIGEgdGhyZWF0LCBidXQgdGhlIGVmZmVj dCBpcyAKdGhlIHNhbWUgLS0gSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHdlIG5lZWQgdG8gd29yayBvdXQgY29tcHJv bWlzZXMsIGFuZCBxdWlja2x5LiAKSSBqdXN0IGhvcGUgd2UgYXJlIHByZXBhcmVkIHRvIGRlZmVu ZCBvdXIgZGVjaXNpb25zIHdoZW4gd2UgZmluYWxseSBnbyAKdG8gSUVURiBMQyBhbmQgcmV2aWV3 ZXJzIGFzayB3aHkgd2Uga25vdyBiZXR0ZXIgdGhhbiB0aGlzIG9yIHRoYXQgUkEuCgotLQpEb3Vn IEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0 Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVy cy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:47:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5E13A6F58; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:47:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE423A6914 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.318 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.318 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.280, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 39I9z0KkgQy9 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout07.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout07-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DF53A3A6DDD for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25881 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 17:57:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout07-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.233) with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2008 17:57:36 -0000 Message-ID: <009601c8c410$f957f0b0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:57:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDxwZXRlcmNvbiBhdCBtaWNyb3NvZnQgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ Pj4gSSd2ZSBzdWdnZXN0ZWQgYmVmb3JlIHRoYXQgd2UgY291bGQgZGVjaWRlIHRoYXQgd2Ugd2ls bCBuZXZlciBhZ2FpbiAKPj4+IHJlZ2lzdGVyIHNvbWV0aGluZyBmcm9tIDYzOS0xLiBUaGF0IHdv dWxkIGVsaW1pbmF0ZSB0aGVzZSBjb25jZXJucyAKPj4+IGVudGlyZWx5Lgo+Pgo+PiBJdCBtaWdo dCBiZSBiZXR0ZXIgaWYgSVNPIDYzOS0xIGluc3RpdHV0ZWQgc3VjaCBhIHJ1bGUsIGluc3RlYWQg b2YgCj4+IHVzLgo+Cj4gTmVpdGhlciB0aGUgSkFDIG5vciB0aGUgNjM5LTEvUkEgY2FuIGluc3Rp dHV0ZSBhIHJ1bGUgYWJvdXQgcHJhY3RpY2UgCj4gZm9yIG1haW50YWluaW5nIHRoZSBMU1RSLgoK Tm8sIG9mIGNvdXJzZSB0aGV5IGNhbid0LiAgSSBwaHJhc2VkIHRoYXQgYmFkbHkuICBXaGF0IEkg bWVhbnQgdG8gc2F5Li4uCgo+IFRoZSBKQUMgaGFzIGEgZ3VpZGVsaW5lIG5vdCB0byBhZGQgYW4g YWxwaGEtMiBpbiBjYXNlIGFuIGFscGhhLTMgCj4gcHJldmlvdXNseSBleGlzdGVkLCB0aG91Z2gg dGhhdCBpcyBub3QgYSBiaW5kaW5nIHJ1bGUuIFRoZSBKQUMgaGFzIAo+IGFsc28gaW5mb3JtYWxs eSBhZ3JlZWQgdG8gYWRvcHQgYSB2ZXJ5IGhpZ2ggYmFyIGZvciBhbHBoYS0yIGFkZGl0aW9ucywg Cj4gbWFraW5nIG5ldyBhbHBoYS0yIGFkZGl0aW9ucyBsZXNzIGxpa2VseS4KCi4uLiB3YXMgdGhh dCBpdCBtaWdodCBiZSBiZXR0ZXIgaWYgSVNPIDYzOS0qIGNoYW5nZWQgdGhhdCB0byBhIGJpbmRp bmcgCnJ1bGU6IG5vIG1vcmUgYWxwaGEtMidzLCBwZXJpb2QuCgpPZiBjb3Vyc2UgbXkgZ29hbCBo ZXJlLCBhZ2FpbiwgaXMgdG8gYXZvaWQgY2hlcnJ5LXBpY2tpbmcgSVNPIDYzOS0xIGluIAp0aGUg dW5saWtlbHkgZXZlbnQgdGhleSBicmVhayB0aGVpciBndWlkZWxpbmUuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxs ICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6 Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1 LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9p ZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:47:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F2EA3A6FE0; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:47:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BC528C881 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:41:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.334 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.334 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.264, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DwSVbiGMbkWV for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout06.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout06-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 02E5528D436 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18930 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 19:18:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout06-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.227) with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2008 19:18:44 -0000 Message-ID: <010c01c8c41c$4efd9870$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <20080601074532.GH20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009401c8c410$4840b460$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <20080601182333.GB13810@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:18:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sm9obiBDb3dhbiA8Y293YW4gYXQgY2NpbCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3cm90ZToKCj4+IEkgc2hvdWxkIGFk ZCB0aGUgb25lIHdoZXJlIHdlIGFkZCBJU08gMzE2NiBleGNlcHRpb25hbGx5IHJlc2VydmVkIAo+ PiBjb2RlcyBleGNlcHQgJ1VLJywgd2hpY2ggaXMgYWN0dWFsbHkgYW4gZXhjZXB0aW9uIHRvIGFu IGV4Y2VwdGlvbi4gCj4+IEF0IGxlYXN0IHRoYXQgb25lIGlzIGJhc2VkIG9uIGEgcnVsZSB3ZSBh bHJlYWR5IGhhdmUgYWJvdXQgbm90IGFkZGluZyAKPj4gZXhhY3QgZHVwbGljYXRlcyBhdCByZWdp c3RyYXRpb24gdGltZTsgaXQgYXBwbGllcyB0aGUgcnVsZSB0byBSRkMgCj4+IDQ2NDViaXMgcHVi bGljYXRpb24gdGltZSBhcyB3ZWxsLiAgU3RpbGwsIGl0IGlzIHlldCBhbm90aGVyIGV4Y2VwdGlv biAKPj4gZnJvbSB0aGUgSVNPIHN0YW5kYXJkcy4KPgo+IFdoYXQgd291bGQgYmUgdGhlIHBvaW50 IG9mIGhhdmluZyBhIHNlcGFyYXRlIHN0YW5kYXJkIGZyb20gSVNPIGlmIHdlIAo+IGRpZG4ndCBk ZXZpYXRlIGZyb20gaXQgZnJvbSB0aW1lIHRvIHRpbWU/ICA6LSkKClNtaWxleSBub3RlZCwgYnV0 IHRvIG1lIHRoaXMgaXMgdGhlIGRpZmZlcmVuY2U6CgpXZSBjYW4gY2hlcnJ5LXBpY2sgZnJvbSBJ U08gc3RhbmRhcmRzIGFsbCB3ZSBsaWtlIChJU08gMzE2Ni0xIGV2ZW4gc2F5cyAKdGhpczsgdGhl IDYzOSBmYW1pbHkgbWF5IHRvbykgYnV0IHdlIG11c3Qgbm90IGFzc2lnbiBkaWZmZXJlbnQgbWVh bmluZ3MgCnRvIGV4aXN0aW5nIGNvZGVzLCBhbmQgd2UgbXVzdCBub3QgYXNzaWduIG5ldyBjb2Rl cyBpbiBhIG5vbi1wcml2YXRlLXVzZSAKc3BhY2UsIGFuZCAtLSB0aGUgaW1wb3J0YW50IHBhcnQg aGVyZSAtLSB3ZSBTSE9VTEQgYmUgYWJsZSB0byBqdXN0aWZ5IAp3aHkgd2UgaGF2ZSBjaG9zZW4g dGhlIHN1YnNldCB3ZSBoYXZlIGNob3Nlbi4gIChCeSAid2UiLCBJIG1lYW4gbm90IG9ubHkgCnRo YXQgdGhlIFdHIGNhbiBqdXN0aWZ5IGl0IHRvIElFVEYsIGJ1dCBhbHNvIHRoYXQgaWV0Zi1sYW5n dWFnZXMgY2FuIApqdXN0aWZ5IGl0IHRvIHVzZXJzIG9uIGFuIG9uZ29pbmcgYmFzaXMuKQoKSW4g dGhlIGNhc2Ugb2YgSVNPIDMxNjYtMSwgd2UgaW5jbHVkZSBleGNlcHRpb25hbGx5IHJlc2VydmVk IGNvZGUgCmVsZW1lbnRzIGluIG91ciBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBiZWNhdXNlIHdlIHBlcmNlaXZlIGEg bmVlZCB0byBlbmNvZGUgdGhvc2UgCmVudGl0aWVzLiAgVGhhdCBpcyBzb21ldGhpbmcgd2UgbmVl ZCB0byBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIGp1c3RpZnkgKGFuZCBJIHRydXN0IApvdGhlcnMgb24gdGhpcyBsaXN0 IHdpbGwgbWFrZSB0aGVpciBjYXNlIGZvciAnRVUnKSwgYW5kIHdlIGFyZSBhbHNvIApzdXBwb3Nl ZCB0byBub3RpZnkgSVNPIDMxNjYvTUEgb2Ygb3VyIGludGVudCAoSSBhc3N1bWUgc29tZW9uZSBo YXMgCmFscmVhZHkgZG9uZSB0aGF0KS4gIEJ1dCwgd2UgaGF2ZSBhIHJ1bGUgdGhhdCBwcm9oaWJp dHMgZXhhY3QgCmR1cGxpY2F0ZXMsIGFuZCBzbyB3ZSBjYW4gdXNlIHRoYXQgdG8ganVzdGlmeSBz dWItZXhjbHVzaW9uIG9mICdVSycuIApGaW5lOiB3ZSBjYW4gZGVmZW5kIHRoaXMgd2hlbiBwZW9w bGUgYXNrIHVzIHRvLgoKSW4gdGhlIGNhc2Ugb2YgbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugc3VidGFncywgd2hldGhlciBp dCBoYXMgdG8gZG8gd2l0aCBleHRsYW5ncyBvciAKZXhjbHVkaW5nIGNlcnRhaW4gSVNPIGNvZGUg ZWxlbWVudHMgb3IgZGVwcmVjYXRpbmcgdGhpbmdzIGluIHRoZSAKUmVnaXN0cnkgdGhhdCBhcmVu J3Qgd2l0aGRyYXduIGZyb20gdGhlIHN0YW5kYXJkIChhcyB3YXMgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIGZvciAKJ21p cycgZXQgYWwuKSwgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIHNpbWlsYXJseSBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIGRlZmVuZCBvdXIgZGVj aXNpb25zIHdoZW4gCnBlb3BsZSBhc2suICBJJ20gY29uY2VybmVkIHRoYXQgd2hlbiB3ZSBleGNs dWRlIGNlcnRhaW4gSVNPIGNvZGVzLCBhbmQgCnJldmlld2VycyBhc2sgdXMgdG8gZXhwbGFpbiB3 aHkgd2UgZGlkIHNvLCBhbmQgb3VyIHJlc3BvbnNlIGlzIHRoYXQgd2UgCmNhbid0IHBvaW50IHRv IGEgcnVsZSBidXQgdGhhdCAidGhleSBkb24ndCBtYWtlIHNlbnNlIGluIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ3Mi IApvciAidGhleSBkb24ndCB3b3JrIHdlbGwsIiB0aGF0IG1pZ2h0IG5vdCBzaXQgd2VsbC4gIFdl IHdpbGwgYmUgYXNrZWQgCndoeSB3ZSBrbm93IGJldHRlciB0aGFuIHRoZSBJU08gVEMgYW5kIFND IHRoYXQgZGV2ZWxvcGVkIHRoZSBzdGFuZGFyZC4KCklmIHdlIHdhbnQgdG8gZXhjbHVkZSB0aGlu Z3MsIEkgd291bGQgcmF0aGVyIGNyZWF0ZSBhIHJ1bGUgdGhhdCBzYXlzLCAKZm9yIGV4YW1wbGUs ICJjb2xsZWN0aW9uIGNvZGVzIGFyZSBleGNsdWRlZCBpZiB0aGV5IGhhdmUgb25seSBvbmUgbWVt YmVyIAp3aGljaCBpcyBhbHJlYWR5IGVuY29kZWQgYXMgYW4gaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBsYW5ndWFnZSwi IGFzIG9wcG9zZWQgdG8ganVzdCAKZXhjbHVkaW5nIGl0IGFkIGhvYy4gIFRoYXQgd2F5IHBlb3Bs ZSBjYW4gZGViYXRlIHRoZSBydWxlLCBub3QgdGhlIApleHBlcnRpc2Ugb2YgdGhlIFdHIG1lbWJl cnMuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1 ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcv aHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8v bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5v cmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:47:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C5D3A6FFE; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:47:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BED93A6C55 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:42:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.636 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.636 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.963, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DP6E9zVrj8Qa for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0037028D3D7 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K2syA-0001Ys-Rn; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:11:54 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:11:54 -0400 To: Kent Karlsson Message-ID: <20080601191154.GF13810@mercury.ccil.org> References: <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Kent Karlsson scripsit: > I assume that for -5 there is a rule that the codes are in the same > "namespace" as 639-3 codes. That is true. > But I would like some firmer recording in the LSR of the fact that a > code is a collection/family code (rather than relying on "languages" > or "(family)" being part of the name, or just referring back to 639-5). > Something like "Type: language collection" or similar. +1 > Pushing this a > bit, macrolanguages should similarly be explicitly recorded as such > (rather than just implicitly), by something like "Type: macrolanguage" I think that's just an invitation to error: it violates the DRY rule. -- "The serene chaos that is Courage, and the phenomenon cowan@ccil.org of Unopened Consciousness have been known to the John Cowan Great World eons longer than Extaboulism." "Why is that?" the woman inquired. "Because I just made that word up", the Master said wisely. --Kehlog Albran, The Profit http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:48:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA7C3A6D1F; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:48:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 975073A6E11 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gGyV9ax2iLuh for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED8A28CA28 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:37:24 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,630,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="45696767" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jun 2008 16:37:24 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m51GbL2b014469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:37:24 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:37:21 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:37:06 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Kent Karlsson , "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:37:16 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) Thread-Index: AcjDe2+N+Xgx5IJWQti9WyedWndN7AAXSSYgAAsADoA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> In-Reply-To: <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I generally agree with the idea that having some of this ancillary information in the registry would be useful. However, the 'Type' field isn't the way to do this. The 'Type' field indicates what kind of subtag it is. Instead, I would suggest that we include some more meta-information in specific fields in the registry. For example, we could have a 'Source' field to indicate where a record came from and an Attribute field for derived attributes. Here's what our record collection might contain: Type: language | extlang | script | region | variant | grandfathered | redundant Subtag | Tag: Added: Deprecated: Prefix: Suppress-Script: Description: Source: ISO639-1 | ISO639-2 | ISO639-3 | ISO639-5 | ISO3166-1 | ISO15924 | registration Attribute: macrolanguage | collection | ... Comments: Thoughts? Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Kent Karlsson > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:43 AM > To: 'LTRU Working Group' > Subject: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition > rules...) > > Doug Ewell wrote: > > I know some WG members will argue that collection codes are Evil, > in > > which case I would respond that perhaps we need to think beyond > Web > > servers and spell-checkers. Our intent is for language tags to > be > > useful for a wide variety of applications, and as far as I know - > - > > despite the horror stories -- collection codes haven't caused > major > > tagging problems since 2001 (publication date of RFC 3066, > > which first allowed them). > > I assume that for -5 there is a rule that the codes are in the same > "namespace" as 639-3 codes. In that case, I would not at all mind > including the "new" -5 code elements (but I'm a bit hesitant to > exclude some of them based on a not-sure-to-be-correct coverage > analysis). I also don't mind making collection/family codes > inclusive, > i.e. exclude the "(other)", as Peter mentioned. > > But I would like some firmer recording in the LSR of the fact that > a > code is a collection/family code (rather than relying on > "languages" > or "(family)" being part of the name, or just referring back to > 639-5). > Something like "Type: language collection" or similar. Pushing this > a > bit, macrolanguages should similarly be explicitly recorded as such > (rather than just implicitly), by something like "Type: > macrolanguage" > instead of just "Type: language". I know there is a way of > inferring > this information, but it is better to be explicit, and not need to > infer that information or refer back to the -3 registry. IIUC, this > would leave "Type: language" for individual languages only. > > I'm not suggesting any formal restrictions on the use of language > collection/family codes, beyond the informal warning we have > already. > I'm sure some of the (non-new) collection codes have been used to > language tag documents in languages not covered by the LSR yet > (but will be, once LTRU II finishes...) with an individual language > code. > > /kent k > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:48:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CDE828C208; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:48:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5705C3A6CDE for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:43:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.684 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.684 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I1lFNNa9xEy1 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4546C28D35F for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K2sqm-0000mB-Pk; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:04:16 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:04:16 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080601190416.GD13810@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A91065C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601070552.GG20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009801c8c411$b8f43780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21DA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601182049.GA13810@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21E1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <00e401c8c418$461464e0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00e401c8c418$461464e0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > We just need to be clear that 'sgn' as a prefix for extlangs would be > our own doing, and would not be based on 'sgn' being an ISO 639-3 > macrolanguage, since it is not one. Indeed. In fact, I'm in favor of zh- and sgn- precisely because they have backward-compatibility precedents. -- Man has no body distinct from his soul, John Cowan for that called body is a portion of the soul cowan@ccil.org discerned by the five senses, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan the chief inlets of the soul in this age. --William Blake _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:53:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E143A6D28; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:53:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C525B3A6B98 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.171 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.171 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.428, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nyjOD4xD5EHB for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDC193A6E53 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m51KJUs2027004; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:19:30 +0200 Message-ID: <48430452.3010105@malform.no> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 22:19:30 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kent Karlsson References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] Mailinglist issue (was: 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Kent Karlsson 2008-06-01 21.38: > > Phillips, Addison wrote: >> >> I generally agree with the idea that having some of this >> ancillary information [snip] I'll just not that I have not received Addison's message except as part of Kent's reply. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 13:53:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2676F28C466; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:53:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F513A6ED0 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:47:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7vFIaODsJQxm for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E549228C0F6 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:31:33 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,630,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="45795299" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jun 2008 20:22:25 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m51KMO8e004809 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:22:25 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:22:24 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:22:09 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Kent Karlsson , "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:22:22 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) Thread-Index: AcjDe2+N+Xgx5IJWQti9WyedWndN7AAXSSYgAAsADoAABOYWgAADK/hg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F220B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > > Type: language | extlang | script | region | variant | > grandfathered | redundant > > Well, I still hope that the extlang stuff is not really coming > back... Yes, but this seems increasingly remote. However, I think it possible that my suggestion be adopted. > > > Subtag | Tag: > > Added: > > Deprecated: > > Prefix: > > Suppress-Script: > > Description: > > Source: ISO639-1 | ISO639-2 | ISO639-3 | ISO639-5 | ISO3166-1 | > ISO15924 | registration > > ISO639-2 would be retargeted (per "Type: language" subtag) as > either ISO639-3 > or ISO639-5 now, would they not? Given that, IIUC, the codes in ISO > 639-2 by > necessity are also registered as ISO 639-3 or ISO 639-5 codes, and > LTRU II are > retargeting from ISO 639-2 to ISO 639-3 and (hopefully also) ISO > 639-5. Agreed. > > UNM49 (or similar "source code") should be there too, should it not? An oversight on my part. I also forgot to include the Preferred-Value field. > > > Attribute: macrolanguage | collection | ... > > Maybe "Kind: individual | macrolanguage | collection" (required for > "Type: > language", not allowed for other "Type"s. I would not recommend > anything > similar for, say, region codes. Nit: And move it up to just after > "Type". > I used 'Attribute' as a generic thing we could add more of in the future. Best Regards, Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 14:02:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7C03A6A9B; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D349628C234 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:56:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.081, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iXoSZmfaaL4T for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E513A6DDD for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K2u5H-0000RZ-8s; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 16:23:19 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:23:19 -0400 To: Leif Halvard Silli Message-ID: <20080601202319.GJ13810@mercury.ccil.org> References: <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <48428F81.8020209@malform.no> <20080601192919.GI13810@mercury.ccil.org> <4842FF5F.1020803@malform.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4842FF5F.1020803@malform.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Leif Halvard Silli scripsit: > >The same is true of "en" and "de". > > You mean that you cannot use "en" to spellcheck "de" unless you > assume that "en" means "de". Of course not. I mean that "en" is insufficiently specific to spell-check: you need at least "en-us", "en-ca", "en-gb", "en-au", and possibly others. Likewise, "de-ch" has different spelling from other kinds of "de". > However, with 'no' there is a very likely risk that someone thinks > that 'no' is spesific enough. And that, or similar risks, exist > for all macrolanguages. And for all pluricentric languages whether macro- or not. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan One time I called in to the central system and started working on a big thick 'sed' and 'awk' heavy duty data bashing script. One of the geologists came by, looked over my shoulder and said 'Oh, that happens to me too. Try hanging up and phoning in again.' --Beverly Erlebacher _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 14:03:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366223A6AC3; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:03:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1913A6941 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:56:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E3oKL2+On9aE for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4157928C65E for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:43:51 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,630,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="45805563" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jun 2008 20:43:51 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m51Khofv026518 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:43:50 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:43:50 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Leif Halvard Silli , John Cowan Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:43:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) Thread-Index: AcjEJdrTCOCcEthQQ9upKL9BdkQxwAAAbwIA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F220F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <48428F81.8020209@malform.no> <20080601192919.GI13810@mercury.ccil.org> <4842FF5F.1020803@malform.no> In-Reply-To: <4842FF5F.1020803@malform.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > Leif Halvard Silli scripsit: > > > >> +1 one for "Type: macrolanguage" and "Type: language collection". > >> > >> Being explicist is good. For example, the "no" code cannot be > used > >> for spell-checking unless you assume that it means either "nn" > or > >> "nb". > > > > The same is true of "en" and "de". > > > You mean that you cannot use "en" to spellcheck "de" unless you > assume that "en" means "de". No: he means that you cannot spellcheck "en" until you know if it is "en-US", "en-GB", "en-CA", etc. Similarly, there are German differences. > > However, with 'no' there is a very likely risk that someone thinks > that 'no' is spesific enough. And that, or similar risks, exist > for all macrolanguages. That or similar risks exist for many, many languages. It is not at all inherent to macrolanguages. It isn't even necessarily a feature of macrolanguages. > > The same is not true of "en" and "de". Which of these is spelled correctly: jail, gaol? How about: tire, tyre? Or: color, colour? Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 14:03:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6338A3A6B62; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:03:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB4E3A68C6 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:56:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.653 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.653 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YNxxXXWU55pi for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CFB33A6B29 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:44:50 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="56885800" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jun 2008 20:44:51 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m51Kiomf025856 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:44:50 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:44:50 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Doug Ewell Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:44:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjEGk2R7bUKHZA9TdKAK6w9EB7bLQAAs3Cw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2210@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A91065C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601070552.GG20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009801c8c411$b8f43780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21DA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601182049.GA13810@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21E1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <00e401c8c418$461464e0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <20080601190416.GD13810@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080601190416.GD13810@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > We just need to be clear that 'sgn' as a prefix for extlangs > would be > > our own doing, and would not be based on 'sgn' being an ISO 639-3 > > macrolanguage, since it is not one. > > Indeed. In fact, I'm in favor of zh- and sgn- precisely because > they have backward-compatibility precedents. Hence the compromise. I think the backward-compatibility case is far more compelling than the macrolanguage case. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 14:14:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25863A69D3; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:14:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A22E3A6B18 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:06:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.403, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dmCAy6Wi7CnJ for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF5528C12B for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m51L4Mlt031565; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:04:23 +0200 Message-ID: <48430ED6.2040206@malform.no> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:04:22 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan References: <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <48428F81.8020209@malform.no> <20080601192919.GI13810@mercury.ccil.org> <4842FF5F.1020803@malform.no> <20080601202319.GJ13810@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080601202319.GJ13810@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan 2008-06-01 22.23: > Leif Halvard Silli scripsit: > = >> >The same is true of "en" and "de". >> = >> You mean that you cannot use "en" to spellcheck "de" unless you = >> assume that "en" means "de". > = > Of course not. I mean that "en" is insufficiently specific to > spell-check: you need at least "en-us", "en-ca", "en-gb", "en-au", > and possibly others. > = > Likewise, "de-ch" has different spelling from other kinds of "de". > = >> However, with 'no' there is a very likely risk that someone thinks = >> that 'no' is spesific enough. And that, or similar risks, exist = >> for all macrolanguages. > = > And for all pluricentric languages whether macro- or not. One could claim that whether "whichever" tag is enough, depends of = the available tags. (We have for instance had many spelling = reforms both for Bokm=E5l and Nynorsk, but have no tags for this.) However, was this only an argument against my argument? Or was it an argument against adding a field in the registry which = tells whether the tag represents a macrolanguage, a collection or = an individual language? -- = leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 14:19:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA103A67EA; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:19:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA773A6B98 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:10:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.380, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y68wFq7HHh2w for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57FD33A6784 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m51L6kEN031951; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:06:47 +0200 Message-ID: <48430F66.3070104@malform.no> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:06:46 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <48428F81.8020209@malform.no> <20080601192919.GI13810@mercury.ccil.org> <4842FF5F.1020803@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F220F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F220F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison 2008-06-01 22.43: >>> The same is true of "en" and "de". >> >> >> You mean that you cannot use "en" to spellcheck "de" unless >> you assume that "en" means "de". > > No: he means that you cannot spellcheck "en" until you know if > it is "en-US", "en-GB", "en-CA", etc. Similarly, there are > German differences. Here you give me the correct interpretation of his letter. [ snip ] >> The same is not true of "en" and "de". > > Which of these is spelled correctly: jail, gaol? How about: > tire, tyre? Or: color, colour? Here you answer me, as if I had the correct interpretation of his letter. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 14:33:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390463A68FD; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:33:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163B63A686A for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:26:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.291 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.291 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.308, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gxqoomKRkJdJ for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 200323A6803 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m51LQXvw001289; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:26:33 +0200 Message-ID: <48431406.1050806@malform.no> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:26:30 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan References: <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <20080601191154.GF13810@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080601191154.GF13810@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: ltru@ietf.org, Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan 2008-06-01 21.11: > Kent Karlsson scripsit: >> But I would like some firmer recording in the LSR of the fact that a >> code is a collection/family code (rather than relying on "languages" >> or "(family)" being part of the name, or just referring back to 639-5). >> Something like "Type: language collection" or similar. > > +1 > >> Pushing this a >> bit, macrolanguages should similarly be explicitly recorded as such >> (rather than just implicitly), by something like "Type: macrolanguage" > > I think that's just an invitation to error: it violates the DRY rule. Don't Repeat Yourself. However, if as Addisin proposed, this info should go into a separate Attribute field, then I can't see how the Macrolanguage attribute/information can be skipped. -- leif halvard sili _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 14:59:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE1D3A67FB; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:59:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5163A6782 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:53:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.676 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.676 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BmmPMSN-gU6i for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D773A6768 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K2vUE-0001ZB-Iy; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:53:10 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:53:10 -0400 To: Leif Halvard Silli Message-ID: <20080601215310.GK13810@mercury.ccil.org> References: <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <48428F81.8020209@malform.no> <20080601192919.GI13810@mercury.ccil.org> <4842FF5F.1020803@malform.no> <20080601202319.GJ13810@mercury.ccil.org> <48430ED6.2040206@malform.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48430ED6.2040206@malform.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Leif Halvard Silli scripsit: > One could claim that whether "whichever" tag is enough, depends of = > the available tags. (We have for instance had many spelling = > reforms both for Bokm=E5l and Nynorsk, but have no tags for this.) Quite so. If someone feels the need for them, they can be registered. > However, was this only an argument against my argument? Yes. > Or was it an argument against adding a field in the registry which = > tells whether the tag represents a macrolanguage, a collection or = > an individual language? It was not. -- = John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan "The exception proves the rule." Dimbulbs think: "Your counterexample prov= es my theory." Latin students think "'Probat' means 'tests': the exception pu= ts the rule to the proof." But legal historians know it means "Evidence for an exception is evidence of the existence of a rule in cases not excepted from= ." _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 15:09:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCAC3A6782; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:09:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094013A67B1 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id alt9EVQkFcvf for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40C93A6778 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:35690 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1K2vay-0005ap-44; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 00:00:08 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <00de01c8c417$a06a6bc0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 00:00:00 +0200 Message-ID: <1324819C1E1C4CFDB3D49BE70FCBA8CE@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <00de01c8c417$a06a6bc0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Thread-Index: AcjEKMrJP5iEi7XeTu22RKvutb1mwwACThvg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1K2vay-0005ap-44. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1K2vay-0005ap-44 ad3996c02a0b61fc07111b1842dec6b2 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > If I remember correctly, what I suggested was to add a "Scope" field to > the Registry that would reflect both the Scope and Language_Type fields > in the ISO 639-3 database. This would be something like "macrolanguage" > for macrolanguages, "special" for things like 'mis' and 'mul', > "collection" for collection codes, and other terms like "extinct" and > "constructed" and "historic" as indicated by 639-3. The most common > scope/type combination by far ("individual, living") would be > indicated by the absence of a Scope field. All of this would be > strictly tied to ISO 639-3, ... Well, as others noted (and I forgot about) there are some "special" codes from ISO 639-2 which do not occur in -3 and maybe not -5 either (not sure about the latter). And collection codes would be tied to -5 (rather than -2, assuming we concur to adopt -5) since they do not occur in -3. So not all of that can be strictly tied to -3. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 18:19:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2EA33A6B65; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:19:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0CC63A685A for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:12:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.300, BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PG6-xH-1D5yG for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096C43A6814 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:12:01 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:12:01 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:11:54 -0700 Thread-Topic: tags for Chinese Thread-Index: AcjB37raAZt3s1pSQjORA3q6jueBVQABt0oQAFzsAqA= Message-ID: References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20805252132g28ff50b0kd5b04d6f47ca35d2@mail.gmail.com> <002001c8bef3$e0497520$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost> <002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost> <001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956333544276NAEXMSGC117re_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] tags for Chinese X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --_002_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956333544276NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [warning: this is very long] On May 27, Debbie wrote: > > > we should consider each of the applications of language tags: > > > identification, lookup, filtering, and Accept-Language, and > > be able to > > > have a reasoned judgment on the technical merits > > > > I would only add: we need to do this with *carefully* > > reasoned judgment, pausing to make sure the arguments > > presented really do stand up. > > I think this is probably a good way forward. It would be best to start > a new thread for each application. I would also add backward > compatibility and historical usage to the pot. In the spirit of this, I'm going to attempt some analysis here of Chinese t= ags. I'm putting this all in one mail rather than separate threads per appl= ication since I'm organizing what I write around different conceptual categ= ories and their corresponding tags rather than by applications. There are l= ots of details to sift, and in trying to get something put down and sent ou= t I know I haven't done as careful analysis as could be done -- certainly I= haven't gotten much past cataloguing lots of facts. I hope this will be useful, and that responses will take the analysis furth= er. If you want to go on a tangent, please start a different thread. On May 29, Karen wrote: > here's my real-world Chinese language list: > > Chinese (Variant Unknown) > Chinese (Cantonese, Spoken) ... I gather Karen's approach here has been to take different "Chinese" categor= ies of interest to her and consider what tag would be recommended for each = under different proposals we might adopt. I'd like to approach things from = a different direction for a moment: list what "Chinese" tags would be avail= able under each of three proposals and consider what we might say about eac= h tag. The three proposals are (1) extlang, (2) no-extlang, (3) mixed: extlang, bu= t with IDs for encompassed languages also allowed in first-subtag position. Before proceeding, I'll briefly review matching processes and scenarios: - Filtering returns a number of records from a (typically sizeable) corpus.= Here, a record tagged with greater specificity than was indicated in the q= uery can always be returned (e.g., if user asks for en, then en-GB is certa= inly valid); relevance of record that are tagged more generically (e.g., en= when user asked specifically for en-GB) is very much in question. A Web se= arch would be a typical scenario in which filtering is appropriate. - Lookup returns a single record that is a best match for some language req= uest. Here, it is appropriate for a user to indicate very specific preferen= ces and then to match that as best as possible, returning a more-genericall= y-tagged resource if needed. (E.g. if user asks for en-GB is best, but en i= s certainly appropriate if no en-GB resource is available.) Software UI and= Web sites are typical examples in which lookup is appropriate. Considerations for macrolanguages in filtering: if a user specifies the mac= rolanguage, the result set may vary considerably in relevance if encompasse= d languages are not mutually intelligible; and if there is a predominant la= nguage, records in that may be relevant for all while records in other lang= uages will be relevant only for certain users -- though there may be many f= ewer records in other languages. If a record is tagged for the macrolanguag= e, then it is likely in a predominant language that may be relevant to spea= kers of any of the encompassed languages (probably true for more developed = languages such as Chinese, but not necessarily true for less developed lang= uage-nets, such as Ojibwa). In lookup scenarios, the number of language varieties for a given resource = is likely managed as a relatively small set; across a number of resources, = the number of language varieties may still be limited, or there may be a ve= ry divers set of varieties. For instance, in a closed system such as UI res= ources for a software title, the number of varieties overall will be limite= d, and the number of varieties for a single resource may be much smaller. (= E.g. there may be resources for en-GB, but there probably won't be resource= s for a lot of English dialects; and as for distinct languages, 100 would b= e exceptionally high.) In an open system such as the Web, a given site will= likely support a limited set of varieties, though across the Web there are= a lot more varieties represented. (E.g. there are going to be sites in man= y English dialects (though not necessarily tagged distinctly), and there ar= e going to be sites in very many distinct languages.) Considerations for macrolanguages in lookup: If a user specifies the macrol= anguage, only resources tagged exactly the same way will match. If a user s= pecifies an encompassed language, resources tagged for either the encompass= ed language or the macrolanguage will match. Since resources must be in som= e particular variety, it may not make sense to tag resources for the macrol= anguage unless all the encompassed varieties really are mutual intelligible= , or unless the resources are in a predominant language acceptable to speak= ers of all encompassed languages. OK, now let's look at "Chinese" tags that would be available under differen= t proposals. I won't give fully exhaustive lists (e.g. won't give tags invo= lving every possible Region subtag), but will cover all the relevant cases = with one or more representatives. Here's the list -- since this will likely get wrapped and be hard to read, = I'm also attaching a txt: extlang no-extlang mixed meaning = Notes ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------- zh zh zh 'Chinese' = (1) zh-CN zh-CN zh-CN 'Chinese as u= sed in PRC' (2) zh-TW zh-TW zh-TW 'Chinese as u= sed in TW' (3) zh-HK zh-HK zh-HK 'Chinese as u= sed in Hong Kong' zh-Hant zh-Hant zh-Hant 'Chinese, Tdn= l writing' (4) zh-Hans zh-Hans zh-Hans 'Chinese, Sim= p writing' (4) zh-Hant-CN zh-Hant-CN zh-Hant-CN 'Chinese, Tdn= l as used in PRC' (4) zh-Hans-CN zh-Hans-CN zh-Hans-CN 'Chinese, Sim= p as used in PRC' (4) zh-Hant-TW zh-Hant-TW zh-Hant-TW 'Chinese, Tdn= l as used in Taiwan' (4) zh-Hans-TW zh-Hans-TW zh-Hans-TW 'Chinese, Sim= p as used in Taiwan' (4) zh-cmn zh-cmn zh-cmn 'Mandarin' = (4)(6) cmn cmn 'Mandarin' = (7) zh-yue zh-yue zh-yue 'Cantonese' = (5)(6) yue yue 'Cantonese' = (7) zh-cmn-Hant zh-cmn-Hant zh-cmn-Hant 'Mandarin, Td= nl writing' (4)(6) cmn-Hant cmn-Hant 'Mandarin, Td= nl writing' (7) zh-cmn-Hans zh-cmn-Hans zh-cmn-Hans 'Mandarin, Si= mp writing' (4)(6) cmn-Hans cmn-Hans 'Mandarin, Si= mp writing' (7) zh-yue-Hant yue-Hant zh-yue-Hant / yue-Hant 'Cantonese, T= dnl writing' (7) zh-yue-Hans yue-Hans zh-yue-Hans / yue-Hans 'Cantonese, S= imp writing' (7) zh-cmn-CN cmn-CN zh-cmn-CN / cmn-CN 'Madarin as u= sed in PRC' (7) zh-cmn-TW cmn-TW zh-cmn-TW / cmn-TW 'Mandarin as = used in Taiwan' (7) zh-yue-CN yue-CN zh-yue-CN / yue-CN 'Cantonese as= used in PRC' (7) zh-yue-HK yue-HK zh-yue-HK / yue-HK 'Cantonese as= used in Hong Kong' (7) zh-cmn-Hant-CN cmn-Hant-CN zh-cmn-Hant-CN / cmn-Hant-CN 'Mandarin, Td= nl as used in PRC' (7) zh-cmn-Hans-CN cmn-Hans-CN zh-cmn-Hans-CN / cmn-Hans-CN 'Mandarin, Si= mp as used in PRC' (7) zh-cmn-Hant-TW cmn-Hant-TW zh-cmn-Hant-TW / cmn-Hant-TW 'Mandarin, Td= nl as used in Taiwan' (7) zh-cmn-Hans-TW cmn-Hans-TW zh-cmn-Hans-TW / cmn-Hans-TW 'Mandarin, Si= mp as used in Taiwan' (7) zh-yue-Hant-CN yue-Hant-CN zh-yue-Hant-CN / yue-Hant-CN 'Cantonese, T= dnl as used in PRC' (7) zh-yue-Hans-CN yue-Hans-CN zh-yue-Hans-CN / yue-Hans-CN 'Cantonese, S= imp as used in PRC' (7) zh-yue-Hant-HK yue-Hant-HK zh-yue-Hant-HK / yue-Hant-HK 'Cantonese, T= dnl as used in HK' (7) zh-yue-Hans-HK yue-Hans-HK zh-yue-Hans-HK / yue-Hans-HK 'Cantonese, S= imp as used in HK' (7) Notes: 1. Most (by far) existing content tagged "zh" is Mandarin. (Not clear how much content is tagged simply "zh" rather than "zh-CN", etc. or "zh-Hant"/"zh-Hans".) 2. "zh-CN" has often been used to declare content as "Chinese, Simp writing" (almost all, of course, being Mandarin), though the preferred tag for this, "zh-Hans", has been available since mid 2005. 3. "zh-TW" has often been used to declare content as "Chinese, Tdnl writing" (almost all, of course, being Mandarin), though the preferred tag for this, "zh-Hant", has been available since mid 2005. 4. Tag has been available since mid 2005. 5. Tag "zh-yue" has been available since 1999. (Also the case for "zh-gan" and "zh-wuu".) 6. Tag is grandfathered in current LSTR. 7. Not valid under RFC 4646. Of course, some of those possibilities are currently more common than other= s,* and some are more useful than others. The challenge is to figure out wh= ich would be recommended under each proposal, and how to handle those that = might not be generally recommended yet are currently in use and so likely t= o be encountered. *(I wonder if Mark can get Web stats on all of these.) So, let's consider each semantic and the tags available: "Chinese": The only tag option is "zh". Because "zh" is widely used and couldn't quick= ly go away (no matter how hard we might want), we will have to deal with it= for some time. It may be a reasonable choice to use "zh" to tag text content (see more bel= ow), but it is probably not a good choice for A/V media unless a system is = closed and providing Mandarin content only. Apart from maintaining current practice of using "zh" to tag Mandarin conte= nt, it is unclear how it would ever be useful to tag content as "Chinese". = There may scenarios in which it would be useful for a user to request "Chin= ese" in filtering or lookup queries, though association between "zh" and Ma= ndarin in existing usage limits feasibility of using "zh" to indicate a tru= ly general "Chinese" request. In filtering, users that ask for "zh" probably want Mandarin or would consi= der Mandarin acceptable, so content tagged "zh-cmn*" or "cmn*" is probably = relevant, while content tagged "zh-yue"/"zh-gan"/etc. (or "yue"/"gan"/etc.)= has a much lower likelihood of being relevant. In a no-extlang paradigm, "= zh" records should probably be returned when "cmn" is requested, but not fo= r requests of "yue"/"gan"/etc.; search engines would need to understand the= relationship between "zh" and "cmn". Going into the future, increased impo= rtance of Cantonese (especially for A/V media) suggests that "zh" should be= discouraged, though transition will be feasible only if requests for "zh" = get appropriate results. Wrt lookup, in a closed system there are no problems using "zh" if only Man= darin resources are provided; it may not be a problem to use for Mandarin i= f both Mandarin and Cantonese resources are provided -- because the system = is closed -- but that's probably not a good choice. For Web sites, many may= use "zh", and many browsers may send requests for "zh". In a no-extlang pa= radigm requests for "cmn" should match "zh", and "cmn" sites should match "= zh" requests; the implication is that browsers should send both "cmn" and "= zh", and "cmn" shouldn't be used for a site unless the server can match "zh= ". "Chinese as used in PRC/Taiwan/etc." The only tag options are "zh-CN"/"zh-TW"/etc. As noted, these have been use= d in the past to indicate (Mandarin) content in Simp or Tdnl writing. This = is definitely to be discouraged, and hopefully is on the decline. Such tags= continue to be used as locale IDs in software systems, and that would take= some time to phase out (assuming that's feasible). Because of such usage i= n the wild we will need to deal with these tags for some time. Apart from such legacy usage, these categories/tags probably are not that u= seful, and even if there were usefulness for a user to make a request in te= rms of the generic "Chinese" language but for a specific region, the associ= ation between "zh" and Mandarin limits feasibility of making such a general= request. In filtering, users that ask for "zh-??" probably want Mandarin or would co= nsider Mandarin acceptable. Comments for "Chinese" above are applicable, mo= dulo the added consideration regarding writing system. Users that ask for "= zh-CN" or zh-SG probably want Simp or would find that acceptable, so record= s tagged "zh-Hans*", "zh-cmn-Hans*" (or "cmn-Hans*") would probably have hi= gh relevance. On the other hand, users that ask for "zh-TW", "zh-HK" or "zh= -MO" probably want Tdnl or would find that acceptable, so records tagged "z= h-Hant*", "zh-cmn-Hant*" (or "cmn-Hant*") would probably have high relevanc= e. Similarly, users that ask for "zh-Hant"/"zh-cmn-Hant"/"cmn-Hant" would p= robably find records tagged "zh-TW" highly relevant; mutatis mutandi for "*= -Hans" and "zh-CN". Wrt lookup: these categories/tags should not be used. In closed systems, th= ey could be used for Simp/Tdnl resources, or these tags used as locale IDs = could map to more preferred tags -- "zh-Hant", or "zh-cmn-Hans"/"cmn-Hans",= or "zh-Hant-TW", etc. "Chinese, Tdnl/Simp writing" The only tag options are "zh-Hant" and "zh-Hans". As noted, these have been= available for a few years; they were registered as preferred alternatives = to "zh-TW" and "zh-CN". It is unclear how much these have been used for con= tent; they are used in some software platforms (e.g. .Net cultures). Of cou= rse, existing content would almost be certainly Mandarin. Also, they are ob= viously relevant for text but not for A/V. Wrt filtering, see above for association between "zh" and "cmn", and betwee= n "*-Hant"/"*-Hans" and region subtags. Wrt lookup: these may be useful in closed systems that support only Mandari= n, and are definitely preferable to "zh-CN" and "zh-TW". If both Mandarin a= nd Cantonese resources are supported, it is probably best not to use "zh" t= o represent Mandarin. Some Web sites or browsers may be using these for Man= darin; see comments under "Chinese" for some implications. "Chinese, Tdnl/Simp as used in PRC/Taiwan/etc." The tag options are the same for all three proposals: "zh-Hant-CN", "zh-Han= s-CN", "zh-Hant-TW", etc. These have been available for a few years, though= it is unclear how much they have been used (my guess: very, very little). = If they are currently used, "zh" is probably assumed to represent Mandarin.= Issues for filtering and lookup described above due to this association be= tween "zh" and Mandarin apply here as well. Since there is likely little existing usage and these perpetuate issues sur= rounding "zh" and Mandarin, I don't see any scenario in which it would make= sense to use these categories/tags. "Mandarin", "Cantonese", etc. For Mandarin, the tag "zh-cmn" would be available under all proposals; the = no-extlang and mixed proposals would also make "cmn" available. This catego= ry would be appropriate for A/V content. For text, written form should prob= ably also be included (i.e. this is probably not a useful category for text= scenarios). The tag "zh-cmn" is in use for A/V content (not sure how wides= pread already, but it is likely growing); it is probably not currently used= for text content. Under the no-extlang and mixed proposals, one of "zh-cmn= " and "cmn" would have to be recommended for A/V scenarios, and the other d= eprecated in general. While "cmn" would be canonical, it is "zh-cmn" that h= as prior usage. Similar comments apply to "Cantonese", "zh-yue" and "yue" (and likewise for= other languages -- though not all currently registered tags would become r= edundant in an extlang paradigm; e.g. "zh-hakka"). The particular case of "Mandarin" has the added complication of existing us= age of "zh"; the relevant issues are discussed above. In general, the more = explicit tags "zh-cmn" or "cmn" are preferable when "Mandarin" is intended,= though applications need to take the existing use of "zh" into considerati= on. Wrt filtering, the extlang/no-extlang decision affects results. For filteri= ng as spec'd in RFC 4647 in an extlang paradigm, a request for the macrolan= guage will return any records tagged for the macrolanguage or any encompass= ed language. Since a request for "zh" is (at least currently) likely intend= ed to be a request for Mandarin, the result set would include any records i= n other encompassed languages -- generally, probably low relevance, but als= o probably low frequency. Reversing things, if "zh-cmn" is requested, it is= probably appropriate to return records tagged "zh", though the currently-s= pec'd algorithm would not do that. (Records tagged "zh" also would not be r= eturned if any other encompassed language is requested -- which is probably= appropriate.) In a paradigm of no-extlang 4646bis, "zh" would not match fo= r records tagged for any encompassed language by the currently-spec'd algor= ithm. The filtering algorithm would have to be modified or tailored to get = a match between "zh" and "cmn". Wrt lookup also, the extlang/no-extlang decision affects results. With extl= ang, a request for any encompassed language would match resources tagged "z= h". This could potentially lead to missing preferred matches. Thus, suppose= a user indicated a preference for "zh-yue" then "zh-gan", and after that "= zh-cmn" or "zh"; and supposed the available resources included resources ta= gged "zh-gan" and "zh": the match would be on "zh", not "zh-gan". In a no-e= xtlang 4646bis paradigm, none of the tags for encompassed languages match "= zh". This would avoid the problem just described, but it also means that "c= mn" would not match "zh" -- unless the algorithm were modified or tailored. "Mandarin, Tdnl/Simp writing"/"Cantonese, Tdnl/Simp writing"/etc. As above, the currently-available tags for Mandarin would remain available = under all proposals: "zh-cmn-Hant" and "zh-cmn-Hans"; the no-extlang and mi= xed proposals would add "cmn-Hant" and "cmn-Hans". These categories are app= ropriate for text but not A/V scenarios. Of course, in text scenarios "zh-H= ant"/"zh-Hans" have been used to represent these categories (due to the ass= ociation between "zh" and Mandarin). Tags using "cmn" should be recommended= in general, but applications need to take the legacy tags into considerati= on. Under the extlang and mixed proposals, a choice to recommend one of "zh= -cmn-Han?" or "cmn-Han?" and to deprecate the other would be needed. Some, but not all, of these comments apply to Cantonese, "zh-yue-Han?" and = "yue-Han?". No tags were registered in the past, and so no issues with syno= nyms will arise: either "zh-yue-Han?" will become available, or "yue-Han?" = will become available, but not both. (These comments apply for the other Ch= inese languages as well.) In a no-extlang or mixed paradigm, there would be alternate tags for a sing= le category (e.g., "zh-cmn-Hans" and "cmn-Hans"); for each such pair, a cho= ice would need to be made to recommend one and deprecate the other. In the = no-extlang paradigm, such a pair would exist only for Mandarin; in that cas= e, consistency would argue for recommending "cmn-Han?" rather than "zh-cmn-= Han?". In the mixed paradigm, however, such pairs would exist for every lan= guage. In filtering, users that ask for "zh-Han?" probably want Mandarin or would = consider Mandarin acceptable. In this case, the filtering algorithm spec'd = in RFC 4647 would not provide a match for content tagged either as "zh-cmn-= Han?" or as "cmn-Han?"; that algorithm would need to be tailored or modifie= d. If users request "zh-cmn", the current algorithm would match content tag= ged "zh-cmn-Han?" but not if tagged "cmn-Han?". (Mutatis mutandi for "zh-yu= e-Han?", etc.) If no-extlang tags are used in the request, e.g. "cmn", then= only no-extlang tags ("cmn", "cmn-CN", "cmn-Hans", etc.) would be matched = unless the algorithm were tailored or modified. In lookup, a request for "zh-cmn-Han?" would match content tagged "zh-cmn" = or "zh"; but there would not be a match in the more useful case of "zh-Han?= " unless the current algorithm were tailored or modified. Also requests inv= olving other languages, such as "zh-yue-Han?" could produce a match on reso= urces tagged "zh", possibly missing a preferred match -- see the scenario d= iscussed in previous section. (Since these are text scenarios, there is pot= ential consolation in that "zh" resources are likely to be acceptable, prov= ided the text follows the user's Tdnl/Simp preference.) In a no-extlang par= adigm, none of the tags for encompassed languages would match "zh", and so = this problem is avoided. "Mandarin as used in PRC/TW/etc." / "Cantonese as used in ..." / etc. No tags for these categories were ever registered, and so the available tag= s would depend on the choice between the extlang, no-extlang and mixed prop= osals: e.g., "zh-cmn-CN" vs. "cmn-CN" vs. "zh-cmn-CN" / "cmn-CN". In the mi= xed paradigm, there would be two tags available for each semantic, and a ch= oice would need to be made to recommend one and deprecate the other. These categories would be useful for A/V scenarios, but not text scenarios. In filtering, a user requesting "zh" may perhaps want Mandarin, though sinc= e "zh" is not a great choice for Mandarin for A/V scenarios in general, it = probably would not be used that way. In this case, "zh" could perhaps be us= ed for a generic request, and in an extlang paradigm the filtering algorith= m spec'd in RFC 4647 would treat that generically, matching any tag "zh*". = It's not really clear when users would want to make such a generic request = for A/V content, though: users are more likely to specify which particular = language they want. A request for "zh-cmn" would match records tagged "zh-c= mn-??" by the spec'd filtering algorithm, but not records tagged "cmn-??". = Likewise, a request for "cmn" would match recoreds tagged "cmn-??", but not= records tagged "zh-cmn-??" (a potential issue only for the mixed paradigm = since there are no currently registered tags of the form "zh-cmn-??"). In lookup, a request for "zh-cmn-??" would match resources tagged "zh-cmn" = or "zh"; a request for "cmn-??" would match resources tagged "cmn". The pro= blem mentioned in the previous two sections of scenarios in which a preferr= ed match could be missed exists here in an extlang paradigm but not in a no= -extlang paradigm. "Mandarin, Tdnl/Simp as used in PRC/TW/etc." / "Cantonese, Tdnl/Simp as..."= / etc. No tags for these categories were ever registered, and so the available tag= s would depend on the choice between the extlang, no-extlang and mixed prop= osals: e.g., "zh-cmn-Hans-CN" vs. "cmn-Hans-CN" vs. "zh-cmn-Hans-CN" / "cmn= -Hans-CN". In the mixed paradigm, there would be two tags available for eac= h semantic, and a choice would need to be made to recommend one and depreca= te the other. These categories would be useful for text scenarios, but not A/V scenarios. In filtering, a user requesting "zh" probably wants Mandarin or would find = Mandarin acceptable. In an extlang paradigm, this request would match "zh-c= mn-Han?-??". It would also match "zh-yue-Han?-??" (or "zh-gan-Han?-??", etc= .), which would likely be of low relevance, but also of low frequency. In a= no-extlang paradigm, "zh" would not match the tags for these categories (e= .g. "cmn-Hans-CN") unless the spec'd algorithm were tailored or modified. If a user requests "zh-cmn" (or "zh-yue"), the categories from this set the= y would get matches on would be relevant in terms of language (though maybe= not written form); this would happen using the RFC 4647 algorithm as is in= an extlang paradigm, but tailoring or modification would be needed in a no= -extlang paradigm. If a user requests "zh-Han?", they probably want Mandarin or would find Man= darin acceptable. The spec'd algorithm would not produces matches for any o= f the potential tags for these categories in under any of the proposals unl= ess the algorithm were tailored or modified. In lookup, a request for "zh-cmn-Han?-??" would match resources tagged "zh-= cmn-Han?" or "zh-cmn" or "zh"; a request for "cmn-Han?-??" would match reso= urces tagged "cmn-Han?" or "cmn". The problem mentioned in the previous sec= tions of scenarios in which a preferred match could be missed exists here i= n an extlang paradigm but not in a no-extlang paradigm. All this needs further refinement and processing to get to some useful conc= lusions, but I've gone on long enough for one reading. I'll stop here for n= ow. Peter --_002_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956333544276NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; name="TagsForChinese-Alternatives.txt" Content-Description: TagsForChinese-Alternatives.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TagsForChinese-Alternatives.txt"; size=4388; creation-date="Sat, 31 May 2008 15:08:20 GMT"; modification-date="Sat, 31 May 2008 22:50:55 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 ZXh0bGFuZyAgICAgICAgICBuby1leHRsYW5nICAgIG1peGVkICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICBtZWFuaW5nICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgTm90ZXMNCi0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCnpoICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgemggICAgICAgICAgICB6aCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgJ0NoaW5lc2Un ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICgxKQ0KemgtQ04gICAgICAgICAgICB6aC1DTiAg ICAgICAgIHpoLUNOICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAnQ2hpbmVzZSBhcyB1c2VkIGlu 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with ESMTP id D89C33A6C8E; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:20:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7783A6814 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:19:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.527 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.527 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v0Gv7GyvVAhR for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060223A6782 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:17:36 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:17:36 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:17:29 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjEGuRHa9efFfMMQWetLoEJZNLb0QAMt2wQ Message-ID: References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <20080601190832.GE13810@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080601190832.GE13810@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > > Between 639-5 and 639-3, it looks like 639-2 would be redundant for > > our purposes. > > Almost. The four special code elements 'mis', 'mul', 'und', and 'zxx' > are in -2 but not -5 or -3, and in principle new code elements of this > type could be added to -2. So we can't completely exclude adding > subtags from -2. They are in -3, actually, and I'd expect any added specials to be in both. (The text of -3 is a bit inconsistent re this and could be improved.) Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 18:22:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7813A686B; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F533A686B for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:22:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2IsCugy-HWp3 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org (smtp1.wsfo.org [208.145.81.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F395E3A6814 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m521MQhP019827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:22:29 -0400 X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.75 (ClamAV engine v0.93) Received: from [118.172.92.128] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO sil-mh4) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPSA id 183365735 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 21:22:25 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:22:41 +0700 From: Martin Hosken To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20080602082241.6fc591c8@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F220B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F220B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 172.22.0.51 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Addison, > I used 'Attribute' as a generic thing we could add more of in the future. Attributes tend to be key value pairs. If there is no key, then that information should be implicit in the field name. Adding key value pairs would extend the syntax somewhat for minimal immediate gain, so I suggest having a specific field. Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 18:24:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4DC3A6888; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:24:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CCE3A6A0C for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:24:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k6VYfit7IjIW for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C403A6814 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:24:54 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:24:53 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:24:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjEFDvIh2jvwiqrSCeiqoAemBK1wAAAN2igAA6JzCA= Message-ID: References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A91065C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601070552.GG20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009801c8c411$b8f43780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21DA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601182049.GA13810@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21E1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21E1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Phillips, Addison > I support 'sgn'... I also note that it was in draft-09 (draft-10 > removed extlang), so I'm having to deal with it as a previous consensus > item. There was a previous consensus. I we go back to an extlang model, we should *not* revisit that decision, IMO. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 19:00:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCDA3A6B1D; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:00:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF0B3A6982 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:00:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hsx4jxqYbPAr for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B8828C0FD for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:00:10 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:00:09 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:00:03 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjEKj8Q6UbNyBlGQuOnRUjRSYEFGgAJXbRA Message-ID: References: <009601c8c410$f957f0b0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <009601c8c410$f957f0b0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Doug Ewell > > The JAC has a guideline not to add an alpha-2 in case an alpha-3 > > previously existed, though that is not a binding rule. The JAC has > > also informally agreed to adopt a very high bar for alpha-2 additions, > > making new alpha-2 additions less likely. > > ... was that it might be better if ISO 639-* changed that to a binding > rule: no more alpha-2's, period. Well, since the JAC can't control what TCs 37 and 46 might choose to do, the JAC can't make any binding guarantee. The best we can do is set a very high bar, and so far that's sticking. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 21:34:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD193A6BC0; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:34:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBC23A6BB3 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:34:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.673 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.673 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.074, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ynzMqSd1u4-H for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CB43A6BCD for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K31jT-0003lQ-6o; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 00:33:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 00:33:19 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20080602043319.GB6231@mercury.ccil.org> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost> <002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost> <001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] tags for Chinese X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > - Filtering returns a number of records from a (typically sizeable) > corpus. Here, a record tagged with greater specificity than was > indicated in the query can always be returned (e.g., if user asks for > en, then en-GB is certainly valid); relevance of record that are tagged > more generically (e.g., en when user asked specifically for en-GB) > is very much in question. A Web search would be a typical scenario in > which filtering is appropriate. Distinguo. As we have established on this list, filtering is also used when retrieving from multilingual web sites. In this context, the corpus is typically small. (If filtering produces zero results, some web servers do lookup instead.) -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org The Penguin shall hunt and devour all that is crufty, gnarly and bogacious; all code which wriggles like spaghetti, or is infested with blighting creatures, or is bound by grave and perilous Licences shall it capture. And in capturing shall it replicate, and in replicating shall it document, and in documentation shall it bring freedom, serenity and most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein. --Gospel of Tux _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 21:46:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8223A6B7E; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283D13A6B83 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:46:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.348 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.348 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kJ63GkC0sPwx for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout07.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout07-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E7B43A6B7E for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17830 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2008 04:46:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout07-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.233) with ESMTP; 02 Jun 2008 04:46:53 -0000 Message-ID: <001301c8c46b$ad4600d0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <00de01c8c417$a06a6bc0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <1324819C1E1C4CFDB3D49BE70FCBA8CE@streamserve.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:46:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org S2VudCBLYXJsc3NvbiA8a2VudCBkb3Qga2FybHNzb24xNCBhdCBjb21oZW0gZG90IHNlPiB3cm90 ZToKCj4gV2VsbCwgYXMgb3RoZXJzIG5vdGVkIChhbmQgSSBmb3Jnb3QgYWJvdXQpIHRoZXJlIGFy ZSBzb21lICJzcGVjaWFsIiAKPiBjb2RlcyBmcm9tIElTTyA2MzktMiB3aGljaCBkbyBub3Qgb2Nj dXIgaW4gLTMgYW5kIG1heWJlIG5vdCAtNSBlaXRoZXIgCj4gKG5vdCBzdXJlIGFib3V0IHRoZSBs YXR0ZXIpLiBBbmQgY29sbGVjdGlvbiBjb2RlcyB3b3VsZCBiZSB0aWVkIHRvIC01IAo+IChyYXRo ZXIgdGhhbiAtMiwgYXNzdW1pbmcgd2UgY29uY3VyIHRvIGFkb3B0IC01KSBzaW5jZSB0aGV5IGRv IG5vdCAKPiBvY2N1ciBpbiAtMy4gU28gbm90IGFsbCBvZiB0aGF0IGNhbiBiZSBzdHJpY3RseSB0 aWVkIHRvIC0zLgoKSSBoYWRuJ3QgcmVhbGl6ZWQsIGFsdGhvdWdoIGl0IG1ha2VzIHNlbnNlIGlu IHJldHJvc3BlY3QsIHRoYXQgNjM5LTUgCmRvZXNuJ3QgaGF2ZSB0aGUgc3BlY2lhbCBjb2RlcyB0 aGF0IDYzOS0yIGhhcyAoZXNwZWNpYWxseSBzaW5jZSBJIGRvbid0IApoYXZlIGEgY29weSBvZiA2 MzktNSkuICBTbyB5ZXMsIHdlIHdpbGwgc3RpbGwgbmVlZCB0byByZWZlcmVuY2UgLTIgYXMgCndl bGwgYXMgLTMgYW5kIC01LCBhc3N1bWluZyB0aGF0IG15IHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gdG8gaW5jb3Jwb3Jh dGUgdGhlIC01IApjb2RlcyBpcyBhZG9wdGVkIChJIGhhdmVuJ3Qgc2VlbiBhbnkgbWFqb3Igb3Bw b3NpdGlvbiB5ZXQsIGJ1dCB0aGVuIGl0IAppcyB0aGUgd2Vla2VuZCkuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxs ICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6 Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1 LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9p ZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 22:04:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D9B3A6A15; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:04:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9195A3A6A15 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:04:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.36 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.36 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.238, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cCgo7ncla-uX for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.38]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 414E53A6815 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2481 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2008 05:04:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.38) with ESMTP; 02 Jun 2008 05:04:09 -0000 Message-ID: <001801c8c46e$16dc92a0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:04:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEluc3RlYWQsIEkgd291bGQgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGF0IHdlIGluY2x1ZGUgc29tZSBtb3JlIG1ldGEt aW5mb3JtYXRpb24gaW4gCj4gc3BlY2lmaWMgZmllbGRzIGluIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeS4gRm9yIGV4 YW1wbGUsIHdlIGNvdWxkIGhhdmUgYSAnU291cmNlJyAKPiBmaWVsZCB0byBpbmRpY2F0ZSB3aGVy ZSBhIHJlY29yZCBjYW1lIGZyb20gYW5kIGFuIEF0dHJpYnV0ZSBmaWVsZCBmb3IgCj4gZGVyaXZl ZCBhdHRyaWJ1dGVzLiBIZXJlJ3Mgd2hhdCBvdXIgcmVjb3JkIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gbWlnaHQgY29u dGFpbjoKPgo+IFR5cGU6IGxhbmd1YWdlIHwgZXh0bGFuZyB8IHNjcmlwdCB8IHJlZ2lvbiB8IHZh cmlhbnQgfCBncmFuZGZhdGhlcmVkIHwgCj4gcmVkdW5kYW50Cj4gU3VidGFnIHwgVGFnOiA8dmFs dWU+Cj4gQWRkZWQ6IDxkYXRlPgo+IERlcHJlY2F0ZWQ6IDxkYXRlPgo+IFByZWZpeDogPHZhbHVl Pgo+IFN1cHByZXNzLVNjcmlwdDogPHZhbHVlPgo+IERlc2NyaXB0aW9uOiA8dGV4dD4KPiBTb3Vy Y2U6IElTTzYzOS0xIHwgSVNPNjM5LTIgfCBJU082MzktMyB8IElTTzYzOS01IHwgSVNPMzE2Ni0x IHwgCj4gSVNPMTU5MjQgfCByZWdpc3RyYXRpb24KPiBBdHRyaWJ1dGU6IG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2Ug fCBjb2xsZWN0aW9uIHwgLi4uCj4gQ29tbWVudHM6IDx0ZXh0Pgo+Cj4gVGhvdWdodHM/CgpJIGxp a2UgdGhlIGNvbmNlcHQgb2YgdGhlIEF0dHJpYnV0ZSBmaWVsZCwgYXMgaXQgYmFzaWNhbGx5IG1h dGNoZXMgbXkgCnByb3Bvc2VkIFNjb3BlIGZpZWxkLiAgSSBwcmVzdW1lIGl0IG1pZ2h0IGFsc28g Y29tYmluZSB0aGUgSVNPIDYzOS0zIApTY29wZSBhbmQgTGFuZ3VhZ2VfVHlwZSBmaWVsZHMsIGFu ZCBtaWdodCBiZSBvbWl0dGVkIGZvciAiaW5kaXZpZHVhbCAKbGl2aW5nLCIgYXMgbXkgcHJvcG9z YWwgc3VnZ2VzdGVkLCBzaW5jZSBtb3N0IGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3MgZmFsbCBpbnRvIAp0aG9z ZSBncm91cHMuCgpJJ20gbm90IG92ZXJqb3llZCB3aXRoIHRoZSBuYW1lICJBdHRyaWJ1dGUsIiBz aW5jZSBvdGhlciBmaWVsZHMgc3VjaCBhcyAKQWRkZWQsIFN1cHByZXNzLVNjcmlwdCwgZXRjLiBh cmUgYWxzbyAiYXR0cmlidXRlcyIgb2YgdGhlIHN1YnRhZy4gCkhvd2V2ZXIsIHRoaXMgaXMganVz dCBhIHdvcmRzbWl0aGluZyBkZXRhaWw7IHRoZSBuYW1lIG9mIHRoZSBmaWVsZCAoYXMgCnVzdWFs KSBkb2Vzbid0IG1hdHRlciB1bmxlc3MgZW5vdWdoIHBlb3BsZSBkZWNpZGUgdG8gaW1idWUgaXQg d2l0aCAKbWVhbmluZy4KCkFzIGZvciB0aGUgU291cmNlIGZpZWxkLCBJIHRoaW5rIGl0IHdvdWxk IGJlIHBvaW50bGVzcyBleGNlcHQgZm9yIAozLWxldHRlciBzdWJ0YWdzIG9mIHR5cGUgTGFuZ3Vh Z2UuICBBbGwgb3RoZXIgc3VidGFncyBjYW4gaGF2ZSB0aGVpciAKc291cmNlIGRldGVybWluZWQg YWxnb3JpdGhtaWNhbGx5LCBiYXNlZCBvbiB0eXBlIGFuZCBsZW5ndGguICBBbmQgYWJvdXQgCjkz JSBvZiBvdXIgMy1sZXR0ZXIgbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugc3VidGFncyB3b3VsZCBjb21lIGZyb20gSVNPIDYz OS0zLiAgU28gCm1heWJlIHdlIGNvdWxkIGhhdmUgdGhlIGZpZWxkLCBidXQgb25seSBmb3IgMy1s ZXR0ZXIgbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugc3VidGFncyAKd2hvc2Ugc291cmNlIGlzICJJU082MzktMiIgb3IgIklT TzYzOS01IiwgYWdhaW4gZm9sbG93aW5nIHRoZSBwcmluY2lwbGUgCm9mIG5vdCBmaWxsaW5nIHRo ZSBSZWdpc3RyeSB3aXRoICJkZWZhdWx0IiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB3aGVuIHRoZSAKImRlZmF1bHQi IG9jY3VycyB0aGUgdmFzdCBtYWpvcml0eSBvZiB0aGUgdGltZS4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICog IEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3 dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hh cnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYt bGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 22:09:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD383A6BCA; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:09:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37C13A6BC2 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.537 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gIJUUJf4Jckn for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB893A6BC9 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:06:22 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:06:22 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:06:16 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) Thread-Index: AcjEa7H/DU3XzLfMTIuvCbam5a6edAAApFjg Message-ID: References: <00de01c8c417$a06a6bc0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <1324819C1E1C4CFDB3D49BE70FCBA8CE@streamserve.com> <001301c8c46b$ad4600d0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <001301c8c46b$ad4600d0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Doug Ewell > I hadn't realized, although it makes sense in retrospect, that 639-5 > doesn't have the special codes that 639-2 has (especially since I don't > have a copy of 639-5). So yes, we will still need to reference -2 as > well as -3 and -5 Look at the data file from 639-3: the special-purpose categories are in 639-3. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 22:13:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E583A6BB8; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:13:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD13E3A6940 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:13:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.179, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3dkMH86a7ho4 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FE233A6BC7 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6084 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2008 05:11:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.47) with ESMTP; 02 Jun 2008 05:11:33 -0000 Message-ID: <002201c8c46f$1fb3a520$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <00de01c8c417$a06a6bc0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><1324819C1E1C4CFDB3D49BE70FCBA8CE@streamserve.com> <001301c8c46b$ad4600d0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:11:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDxwZXRlcmNvbiBhdCBtaWNyb3NvZnQgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IExvb2sgYXQgdGhlIGRhdGEgZmlsZSBmcm9tIDYzOS0zOiB0aGUgc3BlY2lhbC1wdXJwb3NlIGNh dGVnb3JpZXMgYXJlIAo+IGluIDYzOS0zLgoKU2lnaC4gIFlvdSBhcmUgcmlnaHQsIG9mIGNvdXJz ZS4gIEkgY29tcGxhaW5lZCBqdXN0IHllc3RlcmRheSBhYm91dCAKJ3p4eCcgbm90IGhhdmluZyB0 aGUgc2FtZSBuYW1lcyBpbiA2MzktMiBhbmQgNjM5LTMuCgpBcmUgdGhlcmUgYW55IG90aGVyIGNh c2VzIHdoZXJlIHdlIHdvdWxkIG5lZWQgdG8gcmVmZXJlbmNlIDYzOS0yLCBvciBpcyAKZXZlcnl0 aGluZyBjb3ZlcmVkIGJ5IDYzOS0xLCA2MzktMywgYW5kIDYzOS01PwoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAg KiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8v d3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1j aGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0 Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYu b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 22:14:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C3A73A6888; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:14:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99653A6888 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:14:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.422 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.422 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.835, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LJ5BiIXjPXX7 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.38]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F0233A67B4 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10498 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2008 05:14:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.38) with ESMTP; 02 Jun 2008 05:14:21 -0000 Message-ID: <002a01c8c46f$837e3700$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:14:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSB3cm90ZToKCj4gQWxsIG90aGVyIHN1YnRhZ3MgY2FuIGhhdmUgdGhlaXIgc291cmNlIGRldGVy bWluZWQgYWxnb3JpdGhtaWNhbGx5LCAKPiBiYXNlZCBvbiB0eXBlIGFuZCBsZW5ndGguCgpBbmQg aW4gdGhlIGNhc2Ugb2YgInZhcmlhbnQsIiBieSB3aGV0aGVyIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBjaGFyYWN0ZXIg aXMgYSBkaWdpdCAKb3Igbm90LgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywg VVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6 Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3 dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcg bGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v bHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jun 1 23:27:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1213A6BF3; 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02 Jun 2008 06:27:29 -0000 Message-ID: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 00:27:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SGVyZSBhcmUgc29tZSBzdGF0aXN0aWNzLCB0YWtlbiBmcm9tIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IElTTyA2Mzkt MyBkYXRhLCB3aGljaCAKbWF5IGJlIHJlbGV2YW50IHRvIG15IHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gdG8gY3JlYXRl IGFuIGluZm9ybWF0aXZlIGZpZWxkIGluIHRoZSAKUmVnaXN0cnkgdGhhdCBjb21iaW5lcyB0aGUg InNjb3BlIG9mIGRlbm90YXRpb24iIGFuZCAidHlwZSBvZiBsYW5ndWFnZSIgCmZpZWxkcyBmcm9t IDYzOS0zLgoKVGhlICJzY29wZSBvZiBkZW5vdGF0aW9uIiBmaWVsZCBpbmNsdWRlcyB0aGUgZm9s bG93aW5nIHZhbHVlczoKCi0gQ29sbGVjdGl2ZQotIEluZGl2aWR1YWwKLSBMb2NhbAotIE1hY3Jv bGFuZ3VhZ2UKLSBTcGVjaWFsCgpUaGUgInR5cGUgb2YgbGFuZ3VhZ2UiIGZpZWxkIGluY2x1ZGVz IHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgdmFsdWVzOgoKLSBBbmNpZW50Ci0gQ29uc3RydWN0ZWQKLSBFeHRpbmN0 Ci0gSGlzdG9yaWMKLSBMaXZpbmcKLSBTcGVjaWFsCgpBbHRob3VnaCB0aGVzZSBhcmUgc29tZXdo YXQgZGlzam9pbnQgZGF0YSBzZXRzLCB0aGUgZGF0YSBjb250YWluZWQgCndpdGhpbiB0aGUgdHdv IGlzIGN1cnJlbnRseSBjb25zdHJhaW5lZCBpbiBzdWNoIGFzIHdheSB0aGF0IGl0IGNhbiBiZSAK Y29tYmluZWQgaW50byBvbmUgZmllbGQsIGFzIHNlZW4gYmVsb3c6CgoxLiBBbGwgY29kZXMgb2Yg dHlwZSAiQW5jaWVudCwiICJDb25zdHJ1Y3RlZCwiICJFeHRpbmN0LCIgYW5kICJIaXN0b3JpYyIg CmFyZSBvZiBzY29wZSAiSW5kaXZpZHVhbC4iCgoyLiBBbGwgY29kZXMgb2Ygc2NvcGUgIk1hY3Jv bGFuZ3VhZ2UiIGFyZSBvZiB0eXBlICJMaXZpbmcuIiAgKEluIGZhY3QsIAppdCBzZWVtcyB1bmxp a2VseSB0aGF0IGEgbm9uLWxpdmluZyBsYW5ndWFnZSB3b3VsZCBiZSBkZXNpZ25hdGVkIGEgCm1h Y3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZS4pCgozLiBBbGwgY29kZXMgb2Ygc2NvcGUgIlNwZWNp YWwiIGFyZSBhbHNvIG9mIHR5cGUgIlNwZWNpYWwsIiBhbmQgdmljZSAKdmVyc2EuICBUaGVzZSBh cmUgJ21pcycsICdtdWwnLCAndW5kJywgYW5kICd6eHgnLgoKNC4gQ29kZXMgb2Ygc2NvcGUgIkNv bGxlY3RpdmUiIGRvIG5vdCBoYXZlIGEgZGVzaWduYXRlZCB0eXBlLiAgVGhlc2UgYXJlIAp0aGUg Y29sbGVjdGlvbiBjb2RlcyB0cmFkaXRpb25hbGx5IGFzc29jaWF0ZWQgd2l0aCA2MzktMiwgYW5k IG5vdyAKdW5hbWJpZ3VvdXNseSBhc3NvY2lhdGVkIHdpdGggNjM5LTUuICBUaGVyZSBhcmUgMTEz IG9mIHRoZXNlLgoKNS4gQ29kZXMgb2Ygc2NvcGUgIkxvY2FsIiBkbyBub3QgaGF2ZSBhIGRlc2ln bmF0ZWQgdHlwZS4gIFRoZXNlIGFyZSB0aGUgCjUyMCBwcml2YXRlLXVzZSBjb2RlcyAncWFhJyB0 aHJvdWdoICdxdHonLCB3aGljaCBvY2N1cHkganVzdCBvbmUgbGlzdGluZyAKaW4gdGhlIExTUi4K CkdpdmVuIHRoaXMsIHdlIGNvdWxkIGFkZCBhbiBvcHRpb25hbCAiU2NvcGUiIGZpZWxkIChvciBw aWNrIGEgYmV0dGVyIApuYW1lKSB0byBsYW5ndWFnZSBhbmQgZXh0bGFuZyByZWNvcmRzIGluIHRo ZSBMU1Igd2l0aCBleGFjdGx5IG9uZSBvZiB0aGUgCmZvbGxvd2luZyB2YWx1ZXMsIHdpdGggbm8g YW1iaWd1aXR5OgoKLSBhbmNpZW50Ci0gY29sbGVjdGl2ZSAob3IgImNvbGxlY3Rpb24iKQotIGNv bnN0cnVjdGVkCi0gZXh0aW5jdAotIGhpc3RvcmljCi0gbG9jYWwKLSBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlCi0g c3BlY2lhbAoKYW5kIG9taXQgdGhpcyBmaWVsZCBmb3IgdGhlIGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3MgdGhh dCBhcmUgImluZGl2aWR1YWwiIGFuZCAKImxpdmluZywiIHdoaWNoIGFyZSA4OS44JSBvZiB0aGUg dG90YWwgKDcwMTkgb3V0IG9mIDc4MTYpIGFuZCB0aHVzIGNhbiAKYmUgdHJlYXRlZCBhcyB0aGUg ZGVmYXVsdC4KCkFsdGVybmF0aXZlbHksIGlmIGNvbWJpbmluZyB0aGUgZmllbGRzIGlzIHRvbyBk aXN0YXN0ZWZ1bCBmb3Igc29tZSwgd2UgCmNvdWxkIGFkZCBzZXBhcmF0ZSAiTGFuZ3VhZ2UtVHlw ZSIgYW5kICJTY29wZSIgZmllbGRzIGNvcnJlc3BvbmRpbmcgdG8gCnRoZSB0d28gSVNPIDYzOS0z IGRlc2lnbmF0aW9ucy4gIEluIHRoYXQgY2FzZSwgSSBzdWdnZXN0IG9taXR0aW5nIHRoZSAKIkxh bmd1YWdlLVR5cGUiIGZpZWxkIHdoZW4gdGhlIHZhbHVlIGlzICJsaXZpbmcsIiBhbmQgb21pdHRp bmcgdGhlIAoiU2NvcGUiIGZpZWxkIHdoZW4gdGhlIHZhbHVlIGlzICJpbmRpdmlkdWFsLCIgc2lu Y2UgdGhlc2UgYXJlIHRoZSAKb3ZlcndoZWxtaW5nIG1ham9yaXR5IGFuZCBjYW4gYmUgdHJlYXRl ZCBhcyBkZWZhdWx0cy4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAg KiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3 MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2 ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QK THRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 01:19:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC02328C167; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:19:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3522428C167 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:19:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.357 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.357 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.242, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x6t8FtRuNM+3 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C93828C15A for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m528JPEC003699; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:19:25 +0200 Message-ID: <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:19:25 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell 2008-06-02 08.27: > [...] Given this, we could add an optional "Scope" field (or > pick a better name) to language and extlang records in the LSR > with exactly one of the following values, with no ambiguity: > > - ancient > - collective (or "collection") > - constructed > - extinct > - historic > - local > - macrolanguage > - special > Alternatively, if combining the fields is too distasteful for some, we > could add separate "Language-Type" and "Scope" [...] With a clear name, one field can be better than two. As for the name, "which/what scope" is not the first question I would ask first in order to learn which of those values that fits. Whereas "what kind (of language)" seems natural. Hence Kent's mention of "kind" has my support. Another, clear name is "Kind-of-language", unless a 3-word-name is out of scope. (If feel that "type" goes more on the linguistic features of the language -- if anyone wonders how I compare "language-type" and "kind-of-language".) -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 01:23:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE6B428C15E; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE38328C161 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:23:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.101 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.105, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9w06LXssnUhw for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595E928C15E for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m528NT4f002735 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:23:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 32a1_2e325266_307d_11dd_82cc_0014221fa3c9; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 17:23:29 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:51883) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:18:04 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080602163253.05ac1220@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 16:48:42 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0589799955==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0589799955== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, here is Doug's proposal the way I understand it, in table form (please use non-proportional font to view it): [by the way, I like Addison's proposal, too] (Language-)Type Scope Number Examples Proposal Doug Ancient Individual Ancient Constructed Individual Constructed Extinct Individual Extinct Historic Individual Historic Living Individual - Living Macrolanguage Macrolanguage Special Special 4 mis/mul/und/zxx Special - Collective 113 Collecti(ve|on) - Local 520 Local I think this goes into the right direction. I'm not sure I understand the distinction between Ancient, Extincts, and Historic, but I don't bother. I'm marginally affraid that we will have to reopen the WG if in the future, there is a case where the above scheme fails. Therefore, I suggest to clarify by saying (very roughly) "the *Foo* field contains the information in the Type and Scope fields of ISO 639-3. Values of 'Living' for 'Type' and 'Individual' for Scope are default and therefore omitted. If both values are the same, only one word is used. The order of the values is undefined. If the field is empty, it is not used." This would give us the freedom to have Language-Type: Ancient Macrolanguage or Language-Type: Macrolanguage Ancient if something like that ever becomes necessary in the future. Also, I don't care about Collective vs. Collection (I think we therefore best leave it as is), but I think changing "Local" to "Private" would help the readers of the registry, because that's the general IETF terminology. Regards, Martin. At 15:27 08/06/02, Doug Ewell wrote: >Here are some statistics, taken from the current ISO 639-3 data, which >may >be relevant to my suggestion to create an informative field in the > >Registry that combines the "scope of denotation" and "type of language" > >fields from 639-3. > >The "scope of denotation" field includes the following >values: > >- Collective >- Individual >- Local >- Macrolanguage >- Special > >The >"type of language" field includes the following values: > >- Ancient >- >Constructed >- Extinct >- Historic >- Living >- Special > >Although these are >somewhat disjoint data sets, the data contained >within the two is >currently constrained in such as way that it can be >combined into one >field, as seen below: > >1. All codes of type "Ancient," "Constructed," >"Extinct," and "Historic" >are of scope "Individual." > >2. All codes of >scope "Macrolanguage" are of type "Living." (In fact, >it seems unlikely >that a non-living language would be designated a >macrolanguage in the >future.) > >3. All codes of scope "Special" are also of type "Special," and >vice >versa. These are 'mis', 'mul', 'und', and 'zxx'. > >4. Codes of scope >"Collective" do not have a designated type. These are >the collection >codes traditionally associated with 639-2, and now >unambiguously >associated with 639-5. There are 113 of these. > >5. Codes of scope "Local" >do not have a designated type. These are the >520 private-use codes 'qaa' >through 'qtz', which occupy just one listing >in the LSR. > >Given this, we >could add an optional "Scope" field (or pick a better >name) to language >and extlang records in the LSR with exactly one of the >following values, >with no ambiguity: > >- ancient >- collective (or "collection") >- >constructed >- extinct >- historic >- local >- macrolanguage >- special > >and >omit this field for the language subtags that are "individual" and > >"living," which are 89.8% of the total (7019 out of 7816) and thus can >be >treated as the default. > >Alternatively, if combining the fields is too >distasteful for some, we >could add separate "Language-Type" and "Scope" >fields corresponding to >the two ISO 639-3 designations. In that case, I >suggest omitting the >"Language-Type" field when the value is "living," and >omitting the >"Scope" field when the value is "individual," since these are >the >overwhelming majority and can be treated as defaults. > >-- >Doug Ewell >* Arvada, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN >#14 >http://www.ewellic.org >http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > $B%R+(B>_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing >list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltr #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp --===============0589799955== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0589799955==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 01:23:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C7428C16A; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226DE28C15E for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.122 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.122 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.916, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vEkQI6ki5NVZ for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8DA28C137 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m528NUeL018202 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:23:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 32c5_2ee54844_307d_11dd_881e_0014221fa3c9; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 17:23:30 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:51883) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:18:06 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080602164935.05ac1ec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 16:54:17 +0900 To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 04:27 08/06/01, Peter Constable wrote: >If it's an addition to 639-1, then either it will already have been in >639-2, or it is being added to both simultaneously, and it would get >announced together. It if is a new addition to 639-3, then likely it is not >something that would make it into 639-1. In general, I expect new additions >to 639-1 to be pretty rare. > >I've suggested before that we could decide that we will never again >register something from 639-1. That would eliminate these concerns entirely. I agree about the probability of further registrations in 639-1. But my guess is that if anybody manages to get a 'new' language registered is 639-1, they will have a big interest to be able to use this two-letter code on the Internet. Actually, I think the main reason for new 639-1 registrations will not be discoveries of new languages with big populations of speakers, but politically motivated splits and changes such as the Kroatian/Serbian case. I don't think it is possible to call such cases absurd. Even if we don't see such a case on the horizon, things can change quite quickly when they change. So I don't want to rule out further 639-1 registrations. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 01:52:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00C13A6CA1; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:52:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA60328C147 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:52:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.339 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.339 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CoHLhOWgZp+x for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B7A28C177 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33289 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1K35m6-0003w9-3w; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:52:18 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:52:16 +0200 Message-ID: <985B278FBF1F48EE98E512A9FC40D297@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Thread-Index: AcjEecXg2GUIvIVVTii8rEVKy7U4ogAEHSIA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1K35m6-0003w9-3w. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1K35m6-0003w9-3w 2c3163be166ed0426427485283ccf240 Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > 5. Codes of scope "Local" do not have a designated type. These are the > 520 private-use codes 'qaa' through 'qtz', which occupy just > one listing in the LSR. Isn't "local" just another word for "private-use"? Otherwise Doug's proposal is fine by me. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 02:04:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765853A6CCB; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:04:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED6A3A6CCA for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:04:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.969 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.969 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.237, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZYZcccusvYcN for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249413A6CC8 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m5294lTv021009 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:04:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 32ed_f3696434_3082_11dd_9ed7_0014221f2a2d; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:04:47 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:36199) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:59:23 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 17:50:24 +0900 To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.a mazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [technical hat on] At 04:38 08/05/30, Phillips, Addison wrote: >I would like to submit a "modest proposal" for addressing the impasse: > >1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF. This very, very much looks like a compromize. Of course, if we have at least one language with extlang, we need at least one subtag in the ABNF, so this is more a consequence of the proposals below than a proposal in itself. I personally understand the position of the XML Schema WG, and I also think that we should not change the wellformedness definition in RFC 4646, independent of how many (or how few, even zero) extlangs we use. We have in this WG (though unofficially) produced test data that includes three extlangs to test implementations, and changing this doesn't seem to be a good idea to me (I can very quickly change my implementation, but I have no idea how many or how few downloaded/ deployed there already are). >2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all encompassed >languages, which information may be use by implementations however makes >the most sense. Fine with me. >3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed >languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name of >compatibility alone. I'm personally okay with any kind of selection that would be able to make the "rough consensus" that we currently have a bit less rough. As I know there are some people who, for good reasons, don't like cherry-picking, such a selection, so having a good justification would help. I have stated my preference for also including 'ar' in a separate thread. Personally, I'd prefer including all those languages that have a 'dominant' (or whatever the politically/linguistically correct term) encompassed language. >4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language' >production as atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated as if >it were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags, notably by >existing implementations). Note that the 'language' production is the one >that includes both the primary and extended language subtags. That definitely seems to be a very good idea. As far as I understand, we already allow virtually any kind of modification for matching provided "you know what you do", but the above definitely adds a lot of clarity. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 02:44:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D28D23A6CCA; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:44:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BE23A6CC2 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:44:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.003 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.203, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W8F-Dc-8Ef3I for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDAE028C170 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m529fb2k020090 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:41:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 12af_18b871d0_3088_11dd_8c7f_0014221fa3c9; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:41:37 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:59650) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:36:13 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080602181554.09c930e0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:16:23 +0900 To: John Cowan , "Phillips, Addison" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <20080601182049.GA13810@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A91065C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601070552.GG20373@mercury.ccil.org> <009801c8c411$b8f43780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21DA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080601182049.GA13810@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 03:20 08/06/02, John Cowan wrote: >Phillips, Addison scripsit: > >> I presented this as an idea for resolving the impasse we seem to face, >> but it hasn't been ratified anywhere as yet. I think it garnered >> some support, but await the co-chairs recognition of it as a rough >> consensus item. > >Among the people who are willing to compromise at all, I think there is >strong support for 'zh', weak support for 'sgn' (maybe only from me), >and no support for 'ar' (you mentioned it as a hypothetical). Just to make sure this is not overlooked, I supported 'ar' in a different thread. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 04:00:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C88D28C17C; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 04:00:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA7C3A681F for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 04:00:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.028 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.028 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.178, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RbiyviBNl942 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 04:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F4E228C191 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 03:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m5294lDR020997 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:04:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2d87_f302f744_3082_11dd_8f58_0014221fa3c9; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:04:47 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:36199) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:59:22 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080602172638.09885430@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 17:31:53 +0900 To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.a mazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [co-chair hat on] I don't think we have enough feedback on this yet to be able to declare this to be close to consensus. In particular, I have seen several people that I'd count in the extlang camp to agree on this, but I haven't seen anybody that I'd count as being firmly against extlangs commenting. Ultimately, for a real compromize, we would need support from a significant number of people from both camps. On the other hand, I don't remember seeing anybody actively opposing to this proposal, which is definitely a good sign. If you have support/comments, or a somewhat different proposal for a compromize, don't hesitate to send it to the list. I probably have expressed this before, but I'm also quite a bit worried that we don't have anybody on this list from one of the directly affected communities (Chinese, Arabic, Sign Languages,...). Regards, Martin. At 04:38 08/05/30, Phillips, Addison wrote: >Since: > >1. We appear to be stuck. >2. We (most of us, anyway) would like to see this work completed. >3. We haven't a compelling-enough technical argument that resolves the issue. > >I would like to submit a "modest proposal" for addressing the impasse: > >1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF. >2. Keep the Macrolanguage field in the registry for all encompassed >languages, which information may be use by implementations however makes >the most sense. >3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed >languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name of >compatibility alone. 4. Permit implementations to treat the 'language' >production as atomic (that is, the sequence "zh-yue" MAY be treated as if >it were a single subtag but MAY be treated as separate subtags, notably by >existing implementations). Note that the 'language' production is the one >that includes both the primary and extended language subtags. > >Thoughts? > >Addison > >Addison Phillips >Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 05:16:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECCBF3A6846; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 05:16:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442E23A6813 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 05:16:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uz4EDlcO6HRr for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 05:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [217.70.190.232]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D154B3A6846 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 05:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 363793334A; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:15:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: by horcrux (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B64BA157AA1; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:29:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:29:43 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Debbie Garside Message-ID: <20080602082943.GB12243@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 8.04 (hardy) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, Jun 01, 2008 at 12:00:08AM +0100, Debbie Garside wrote a message of 80 lines which said: > ISO 639-5 was published on the 15/05/2008 Where can we download it? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 05:24:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7AB03A6846; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 05:24:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C713A68C7 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 05:24:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.566 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.566 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BS5ySe-GLnzE for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 05:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [217.70.190.232]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFCBE3A68B0 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 05:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 0BF5E33348; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:15:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: by horcrux (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C6C64157AA1; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:26:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:26:50 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080602082650.GA11674@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <003d01c8c335$73b7fda0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <003d01c8c335$73b7fda0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 8.04 (hardy) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Line breaks X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 09:46:10AM -0600, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 8 lines which said: > Outlook Express sends my mails as: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original This is perfectly sensible but, when your message arrives, there is only the 'text/plain; charset' part, the fact that the message is flowed (RFC 3676) is lost (may be a broken gateway somewhere). So, it is not a surprise if I have the same problem than Martin with your messages. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 06:18:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560583A6B02; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 06:18:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B573A6BA3 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 06:18:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.199, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rk5jxAL3owb1 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 06:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 859643A6977 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 06:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17506 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2008 13:16:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.47) with ESMTP; 02 Jun 2008 13:16:51 -0000 Message-ID: <006601c8c4b2$eb479960$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:16:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TGVpZiBIYWx2YXJkIFNpbGxpIDxsaHMgYXQgbWFsZm9ybSBkb3Qgbm8+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBXaXRo IGEgY2xlYXIgbmFtZSwgb25lIGZpZWxkIGNhbiBiZSBiZXR0ZXIgdGhhbiB0d28uCgpOb3RlZC4K Cj4gQXMgZm9yIHRoZSBuYW1lLCAid2hpY2gvd2hhdCBzY29wZSIgaXMgbm90IHRoZSBmaXJzdCBx dWVzdGlvbiBJIHdvdWxkIAo+IGFzayBmaXJzdCBpbiBvcmRlciB0byBsZWFybiB3aGljaCBvZiB0 aG9zZSB2YWx1ZXMgdGhhdCBmaXRzLgo+Cj4gV2hlcmVhcyAid2hhdCBraW5kIChvZiBsYW5ndWFn ZSkiIHNlZW1zIG5hdHVyYWwuIEhlbmNlIEtlbnQncyBtZW50aW9uIAo+IG9mICJraW5kIiBoYXMg bXkgc3VwcG9ydC4KCkkgd29ycnkgYWJvdXQgbm9uLW5hdGl2ZSBFbmdsaXNoIHNwZWFrZXJzLCBv ciBldmVuIG5hdGl2ZSBFbmdsaXNoIApzcGVha2VycywgZHJhd2luZyBhIGNsZWFyIGRpc3RpbmN0 aW9uIGJldHdlZW4gdGhlIHdvcmRzICJ0eXBlIiBhbmQgCiJraW5kLiIgIFRvIG1lIHRoZXkgYXJl IHBlcmhhcHMgdG9vIHNpbWlsYXIuCgo+IEFub3RoZXIsIGNsZWFyIG5hbWUgaXMgIktpbmQtb2Yt bGFuZ3VhZ2UiLCB1bmxlc3MgYSAzLXdvcmQtbmFtZSBpcyBvdXQgCj4gb2Ygc2NvcGUuCgpTaW5j ZSB3ZSBhbHJlYWR5IGhhdmUgIlByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZSIgYW5kICJTdXBwcmVzcy1TY3JpcHQs IiB0aGlzIAp3b3VsZCBub3QgYmUgYSBsaW1pdGF0aW9uLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2 YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3 ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVy Lmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5n dWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f XwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 07:18:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DDB28C171; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:18:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA19228C188 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:18:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id roJcZigvcZ-B for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C244328C18A for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:18:44 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="57310724" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jun 2008 14:18:45 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m52EIi56010557 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:18:45 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:18:44 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Duerst , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:18:42 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] a modest proposal... Thread-Index: AcjEj7ecVbZkT+5IRKGP22sbU/kV6wAKiZ9w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F24F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin wrote: > >1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF. > > This very, very much looks like a compromize. Of course, if we have > at least one language with extlang, we need at least one subtag in > the ABNF, so this is more a consequence of the proposals below than > a proposal in itself. > > I personally understand the position of the XML Schema WG, and > I also think that we should not change the wellformedness > definition > in RFC 4646, independent of how many (or how few, even zero) > extlangs > we use. We don't have to change it, but it seems slightly silly to keep the extra extlangs around if we foreclose their use (writing code/tests for never-to-be-implemented features is considered bad practice). > We have in this WG (though unofficially) produced test data > that includes three extlangs to test implementations, and changing > this doesn't seem to be a good idea to me (I can very quickly > change > my implementation, but I have no idea how many or how few > downloaded/ > deployed there already are). It would be okay with me to keep well-formedness the same. Having the three-extlang well-formedness check doesn't hurt very many people. However: a single extlang is much easier to code other operations for, such as validation or tag generation. The first repeating option comes at variant, at the end of the tag. Having written more than one implementation, I found multiple extlangs one of the more difficult things to implement well each time---and all for naught? I guess the more compelling issue for me is that well-formedness checking ALREADY changes in 4646bis because we fixed the grandfathered production (which was much more permissive). In practice the bigger problem are 3066 well-formedness implementations, which we know are widespread. > > >3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed > >languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name > of > >compatibility alone. > > I'm personally okay with any kind of selection that would be able > to make > the "rough consensus" that we currently have a bit less rough. As I > know > there are some people who, for good reasons, don't like cherry- > picking, > such a selection, so having a good justification would help. See Peter's email on this topic and see my justification just above: all this talk about macrolanguages has obscured the reason we're doing it, which is compatibility with existing tagging practice. Thus the Chinese, Sign Language, and possibly Arabic cherries make sense. Stuff like Malay and Konkani don't make the grade. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 07:30:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 505C228C1D1; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:30:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB3428C1B1 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:30:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.953, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u9gcK1QTngod for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8C328C226 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:29:31 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="57320265" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jun 2008 14:29:33 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m52ETWa5032437 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:29:32 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:29:32 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Duerst , Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:29:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjEifZ4L1tholYTS0u9F+pz/CTPQgAMtsnw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F250C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602164935.05ac1ec0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080602164935.05ac1ec0@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > I agree about the probability of further registrations in 639-1. > But my guess is that if anybody manages to get a 'new' language > registered is 639-1, they will have a big interest to be able > to use this two-letter code on the Internet. The big problem is to get a language code that isn't already a three-letter code. > > Actually, I think the main reason for new 639-1 registrations > will not be discoveries of new languages with big populations > of speakers, but politically motivated splits and changes such > as the Kroatian/Serbian case. I don't think it is possible to > call such cases absurd. Even if we don't see such a case on > the horizon, things can change quite quickly when they change. > So I don't want to rule out further 639-1 registrations. That's a very good point: "never" being, on average, a very long time. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 07:37:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BFC3A6CC7; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:37:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 572AC3A6CC7 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:37:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.705 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.705 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.106, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ex1lV3U+PArd for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0A23A6CAF for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:36:40 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="57326334" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jun 2008 14:36:41 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m52Eaer6022177 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:36:40 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:36:40 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Leif Halvard Silli , Doug Ewell Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:36:38 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field Thread-Index: AcjEiWUlifR5jHYESma+FwmY2DW2NwAM7Ovw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> In-Reply-To: <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I think this is a Bad Idea: it puts us into the business of collecting/determining all manner of information about language codes. The collection and macrolanguage codes we know because one of the ISO 639 parts tells us. I suppose the 'special' codes we know because we list them. We don't need to become a competitor to or mirror of Ethnologue, Linguist List or Wikipedia. What we call the field is of less import to me. If we're going to "kind of language", then perhaps the field could be calls "Classification". And the values could be from ISO 639-3/-5: collection macrolanguage individual (as in Ethnologue's "individual language") Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 1:19 AM > To: Doug Ewell > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field > > Doug Ewell 2008-06-02 08.27: > > > [...] Given this, we could add an optional "Scope" field (or > > pick a better name) to language and extlang records in the LSR > > with exactly one of the following values, with no ambiguity: > > > > > - ancient > > - collective (or "collection") > > - constructed > > - extinct > > - historic > > - local > > - macrolanguage > > - special > > > > Alternatively, if combining the fields is too distasteful for > some, we > > could add separate "Language-Type" and "Scope" [...] > > With a clear name, one field can be better than two. > > As for the name, "which/what scope" is not the first question I > would ask first in order to learn which of those values that fits. > > Whereas "what kind (of language)" seems natural. Hence Kent's > mention of "kind" has my support. > > Another, clear name is "Kind-of-language", unless a 3-word-name is > out of scope. > > (If feel that "type" goes more on the linguistic features of the > language -- if anyone wonders how I compare "language-type" and > "kind-of-language".) > -- > leif halvard silli > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 08:37:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA1028C1BF; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:37:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FBED28C1B7 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:37:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EeIbc92QpZkn for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B1F28C1C3 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3C4d-0002rV-HO; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:35:51 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:35:51 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080602153551.GA13276@mercury.ccil.org> References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > Given this, we could add an optional "Scope" field (or pick a better > name) to language and extlang records in the LSR with exactly one of the > following values, with no ambiguity: I've just added some counts, to give people an idea: > - ancient [113 entries in 639-3] > - collective (or "collection") [113 entries in 639-5] > - constructed [20 entries in 639-3] > - extinct [426 entries in 639-3] > - historic [63 entries in 639-3] > - local [520 entries in 639-2] > - macrolanguage [57 entries in 639-3] > - special [4 entries in 639-3] > > and omit this field for the language subtags that are "individual" and > "living," which are 89.8% of the total (7019 out of 7816) and thus can > be treated as the default. In response to Martin's non-question: Ancient languages have been extinct for 50 years or more; extinct languages for a lesser period; historic languages are earlier stages of living languages, like Old English. The effective difference between ancient languages and extinct ones is that Language List does change control for ancient, constructed, and historic languages, whereas Ethnologue does it for living and extinct languages. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Nobody expects the RESTifarian Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise ... surprise and tedium ... tedium and surprise .... Our two weapons are tedium and surprise ... and ruthless disregard for unpleasant facts.... Our three weapons are tedium, surprise, and ruthless disregard ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Roy Fielding.... _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 08:37:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F5228C1D4; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:37:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D50E28C1BB for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:37:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q0jn9XSfDZP0 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0087A28C1E8 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3C5Z-0002xB-VC; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:36:50 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:36:49 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org> References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > I think this is a Bad Idea: it puts us into the business of > collecting/determining all manner of information about language > codes. The collection and macrolanguage codes we know because one > of the ISO 639 parts tells us. I suppose the 'special' codes we know > because we list them. We don't need to become a competitor to or mirror > of Ethnologue, Linguist List or Wikipedia. This is all information direct from 639-3, so it's in our remit. -- As we all know, civil libertarians are not John Cowan the friskiest group around --comes from cowan@ccil.org forever being on the qui vive for the sound http://www.ccil.org/~cowan of jack-booted fascism coming down the pike. --Molly Ivins _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 08:44:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758653A6C9E; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241533A6C91 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.664 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.664 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zwmNS31+79Qs for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E221228C1BF for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3CCj-0003jw-GP; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:44:13 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:44:13 -0400 To: John Cowan Message-ID: <20080602154413.GD13276@mercury.ccil.org> References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Scripsi: > This is all information direct from 639-3, so it's in our remit. Specifically columns 5-6 of http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/iso-639-3_20080529.tab . -- Long-short-short, long-short-short / Dactyls in dimeter, John Cowan Verse form with choriambs / (Masculine rhyme): cowan@ccil.org One sentence (two stanzas) / Hexasyllabically Challenges poets who / Don't have the time. --robison who's at texas dot net _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 08:51:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77A43A6CA3; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:51:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D657F3A6C55 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:51:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HOdgyE8HsL7O for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BF73A6CB8 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:50:51 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:50:51 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:50:43 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field Thread-Index: AcjExqYdl2g51EEgQUKUdhaY48T3iAAAUdiw Message-ID: References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <20080602153551.GA13276@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080602153551.GA13276@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > John Cowan > The effective difference between ancient languages and extinct ones is > that Language List does change control for ancient, constructed, and > historic languages, whereas Ethnologue does it for living and extinct > languages. The more significant distinction is that ancient languages have a body of literature -- which is why we know about them, whereas extinct language likely do not have a body of literature -- we know about them because they died out recently enough for someone to document their existence, but because not enough literature (if any) had developed to sustain vitality the language died as younger generations moved to more developed languages. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 09:51:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E1B3A6CC6; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:51:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A8828C1BF for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:51:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dlhmjef8TnCK for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D55C28C1FA for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:47:43 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=kJlbmqWwOng0vD3Me7fhBn1DF+bxF0M9USmHb95gJjvOmSxpiTOYaIN0jt2kIU5W; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.89.243] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K3DCC-0003kv-ST for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:47:45 -0400 Message-ID: <011801c8c4d0$745aab80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48430452.3010105@malform.no> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:48:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b3a2811f19fd82d8bf2a63fb3e97e835ba350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.89.243 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Mailinglist issue X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As mailing list admin... > From: "Leif Halvard Silli" > To: "Kent Karlsson" > Cc: "'LTRU Working Group'" > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:19 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Mailinglist issue (was: 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) > > Kent Karlsson 2008-06-01 21.38: > > > > > Phillips, Addison wrote: > >> > >> I generally agree with the idea that having some of this > >> ancillary information [snip] > > > I'll just not that I have not received Addison's message except as > part of Kent's reply. I don't know why that would have happened. The message made it to the archive (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg10688.html) as well as to my own inbox vie tha mailing list. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 10:14:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1963A68D1; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:14:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3D33A68D1 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id irU5Ee5m88UD for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8613A68C7 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008145525.msg for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:24:14 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:24:14 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=103985c27f=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:14:36 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Stephane Bortzmeyer'" References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <20080602082943.GB12243@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:16:06 +0100 Message-ID: <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <20080602082943.GB12243@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> thread-index: AcjEqvmIlTr8NqQySDiQWVGNi9kKYQAKJ9xw X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:24:15 +0100 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have spoken with the Editor of ISO 639-5 and am reliably informed that the MA (Library of Congress) will be making the file publicly available for free download in the very near future. The standard was only published a couple of weeks ago and ISO had hoped that the Standard as Database initiative would be up and running before publication of ISO 639-5 - in the event it is not quite in place. I will let you know as soon as this becomes available. In the meantime, I have supplied Doug with the tables from the BSI copy of the standard for inclusion within the LSR - assuming the WG agrees. Best regards Debbie > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] > Sent: 02 June 2008 09:30 > To: Debbie Garside > Cc: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group' > Subject: Re: ISO 639 language code addition rules... > > On Sun, Jun 01, 2008 at 12:00:08AM +0100, Debbie Garside > wrote a message of 80 lines which said: > > > ISO 639-5 was published on the 15/05/2008 > > Where can we download it? > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 10:30:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CD73A6BED; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:30:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50A43A6BE3 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:30:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nzt-MLNK8LU9 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA0E28C204 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:22:37 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,630,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="46549628" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jun 2008 17:22:34 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m52HMVC9030907 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:22:32 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:22:31 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:22:30 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field Thread-Index: AcjExnqLhLb+PTfIRPe4/3t4ffBmFwADX64Q Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F27FA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > This is all information direct from 639-3, so it's in our remit. Yes, but I still don't think we should mirror it. We would have to mirror the explanations for the values in the RFC, track changes to the values, and otherwise encumber ourselves with various maintenance and explanatory details. The less we do in the registry by fiat, the more flexible we will be. I have to admit to being at least a little leery of the (necessary and unavoidable) fluctuations that will come from any embrace of "splitter" (vs. "lumper") linguistic categorization schemes. There is no end to the ways that one can split up and categorize language. The less of the non-normative information we mirror, the easier the maintenance work and the less likely we will find ourselves embroiled in long-winded and painful (yet ultimately meaningless) discussions on ietf-languages. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 10:33:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4943A6CE5; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:33:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172A03A6CE5 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cc-5ICT7kJgv for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89BC28C2CB for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:26:24 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,630,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="46554768" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jun 2008 17:26:25 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m52HQOoQ029726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:26:25 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:26:24 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:26:09 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" , "'Stephane Bortzmeyer'" Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:26:23 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjEqvmIlTr8NqQySDiQWVGNi9kKYQAKJ9xwAAB78UA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <20080602082943.GB12243@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, (editor hat on) Assuming we do this, I need to create a reference for it in the draft. Could someone please provide me with: - the official name of Part 5 - a pointer to the name, address, phone, URL, etc. of the MA or RA Thanks, Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Debbie Garside > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:16 AM > To: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer' > Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell' > Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... > > I have spoken with the Editor of ISO 639-5 and am reliably informed > that the > MA (Library of Congress) will be making the file publicly available > for free > download in the very near future. The standard was only published > a couple > of weeks ago and ISO had hoped that the Standard as Database > initiative > would be up and running before publication of ISO 639-5 - in the > event it is > not quite in place. I will let you know as soon as this becomes > available. > > In the meantime, I have supplied Doug with the tables from the BSI > copy of > the standard for inclusion within the LSR - assuming the WG agrees. > > Best regards > > Debbie > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] > > Sent: 02 June 2008 09:30 > > To: Debbie Garside > > Cc: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group' > > Subject: Re: ISO 639 language code addition rules... > > > > On Sun, Jun 01, 2008 at 12:00:08AM +0100, Debbie Garside > > wrote a message of 80 lines which > said: > > > > > ISO 639-5 was published on the 15/05/2008 > > > > Where can we download it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 10:39:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B31E3A6DA6; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:39:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2977C3A6C11 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:39:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iDrastuQ1-sq for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8893B28C246 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3DsE-0006bG-VB; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:31:11 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:31:10 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080602173110.GI13276@mercury.ccil.org> References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F27FA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F27FA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > This is all information direct from 639-3, so it's in our remit. > > Yes, but I still don't think we should mirror it. We would have to > mirror the explanations for the values in the RFC, track changes to the > values, and otherwise encumber ourselves with various maintenance and > explanatory details. The less we do in the registry by fiat, the more > flexible we will be. Fair enough. Well, we do talk about language collections in the draft, and the private use codes are currently marked with a "Description:" field only (plus having special magic syntax), so how about abandoning ISO 639 type and having a minimalistic Scope field with "Collection" and "Private use" field values? -- Newbies always ask: John Cowan "Elements or attributes? http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Which will serve me best?" cowan@ccil.org Those who know roar like lions; Wise hackers smile like tigers. --a tanka, or extended haiku _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 10:48:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32B23A6D11; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:48:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2605428C137 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:48:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I+z95JfJaDNz for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE0B3A6DEA for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008145602.msg for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:53:01 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:53:01 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=103985c27f=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:43:21 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Phillips, Addison'" , "'Stephane Bortzmeyer'" References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><20080602082943.GB12243@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:44:44 +0100 Message-ID: <137f01c8c4d8$5c5280f0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> thread-index: AcjEqvmIlTr8NqQySDiQWVGNi9kKYQAKJ9xwAAB78UAAAIO6oA== X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:53:02 +0100 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1812522699==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1812522699== The MA/RA is Library of Congress - same as ISO 639-2. The official name is: Codes for the representation of names of languages — Part 5: Alpha-3 code for language families and groups et en Français pour Stephane... Codes pour la représentation des noms de langue — Partie 5: Code alpha-3 pour les familles de langues et groupes de langues Best regards Debbie > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > Sent: 02 June 2008 18:26 > To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Stephane Bortzmeyer' > Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell' > Subject: RE: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... > > Hi, (editor hat on) > > Assuming we do this, I need to create a reference for it in > the draft. Could someone please provide me with: > > - the official name of Part 5 > > - a pointer to the name, address, phone, URL, etc. of the MA or RA > > Thanks, > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf > > Of Debbie Garside > > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:16 AM > > To: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer' > > Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell' > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... > > > > I have spoken with the Editor of ISO 639-5 and am reliably informed > > that the MA (Library of Congress) will be making the file publicly > > available for free download in the very near future. The > standard was > > only published a couple of weeks ago and ISO had hoped that the > > Standard as Database initiative would be up and running before > > publication of ISO 639-5 - in the event it is not quite in place. I > > will let you know as soon as this becomes available. > > > > In the meantime, I have supplied Doug with the tables from the BSI > > copy of the standard for inclusion within the LSR - assuming the WG > > agrees. > > > > Best regards > > > > Debbie > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] > > > Sent: 02 June 2008 09:30 > > > To: Debbie Garside > > > Cc: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group' > > > Subject: Re: ISO 639 language code addition rules... > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 01, 2008 at 12:00:08AM +0100, Debbie Garside > > > wrote a message of 80 lines which > > said: > > > > > > > ISO 639-5 was published on the 15/05/2008 > > > > > > Where can we download it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --===============1812522699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1812522699==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 10:55:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD643A68E2; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:55:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93ED3A6809 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:55:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8FW-+0CLeop1 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340ED3A6C1B for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:50:40 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,578,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="318004903" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jun 2008 17:46:11 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m52Hk5bO024837 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:46:10 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:46:07 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" , "'Stephane Bortzmeyer'" Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:46:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjEqvmIlTr8NqQySDiQWVGNi9kKYQAKJ9xwAAB78UAAAIO6oAAAO4Ug Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><20080602082943.GB12243@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <137f01c8c4d8$5c5280f0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: <137f01c8c4d8$5c5280f0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org VGhhbmtzLA0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQoNCkFkZGlzb24gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJj aGl0ZWN0IC0tIExhYjEyNg0KDQpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJl Lg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLg0KDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0t LS0NCj4gRnJvbTogRGViYmllIEdhcnNpZGUgW21haWx0bzpkZWJiaWVAaWN0bWFya2V0aW5nLmNv LnVrXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBNb25kYXksIEp1bmUgMDIsIDIwMDggMTA6NDUgQU0NCj4gVG86IFBoaWxs aXBzLCBBZGRpc29uOyAnU3RlcGhhbmUgQm9ydHptZXllcicNCj4gQ2M6ICdMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcg R3JvdXAnOyAnRG91ZyBFd2VsbCcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUkU6IFtMdHJ1XSBJU08gNjM5IGxhbmd1 YWdlIGNvZGUgYWRkaXRpb24gcnVsZXMuLi4NCj4NCj4gVGhlIE1BL1JBIGlzIExpYnJhcnkgb2Yg 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YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCj4gPg0KPg0KPg0KPg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYu b3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 11:39:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 044633A698F; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:39:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4053A68DF for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:39:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IOK1Ii3U2luj for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE493A68C5 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so504231ywj.49 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:35:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=TXbNv2nG3VlQG/ObEvo0CjLGWtBJa1A13uBfDLSmE2c=; b=ZBmhB8Y2Yj1q127WcHB4+ENmkq6MLAFNJpUzC2EvxRTv+EqQPhe+CQz+280ZH/ZctuSzii362097VVbMeqkB2MOdV0SIRGY9PYPE0B8kIMQKOH7Lrk1vy4a+7Kyf57nuFGmgzS99rlgwU1XzdXPVsu3ASxEhsaMVnSETjXWpW4Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=T+hJSgt9wsqSpC8uWly2gq6KLaFeB55iFQlCZXW5xmQ8x75SJ8BN5MyUFt9siIzeHFgrDDUhM2WJX8ntr7YVWRE5ZAHIw4l4b7T+H7BDXPLJK6AqqEwMDQ7JBgvszRmnYT2MyeN2DnoX9aqrq3qMYmdHrZ2t4AZ8QBQrtWtCwww= Received: by 10.151.112.16 with SMTP id p16mr1361856ybm.37.1212431732940; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.206.3 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806021135p69632130u783a0bec60f9a86f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:35:32 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <20080602082943.GB12243@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3d7cbb10137f477d Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0740533599==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0740533599== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9819_12735100.1212431732972" ------=_Part_9819_12735100.1212431732972 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In general, I think adding 639-5 codes would be a good idea, as long as the list will be publicly available by the time we release. I'm however a bit concerned by the issues raised by John, of codes that have the same denotation as 639-3 codes; we need to resolve that before we can have a full consensus. (We have to discuss this, but my preference for John's cases would be rather than excluding the codes, to deprecate&prefer the others.) On the part of the two-letter primary language subtags, I think our best approach would just disallow them. While it would be very unlikely that this would ever happen, it is very simple for us to prevent any instabilities that might occur. Mark On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > Hi, (editor hat on) > > Assuming we do this, I need to create a reference for it in the draft. > Could someone please provide me with: > > - the official name of Part 5 > > - a pointer to the name, address, phone, URL, etc. of the MA or RA > > Thanks, > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Debbie Garside > > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:16 AM > > To: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer' > > Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell' > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... > > > > I have spoken with the Editor of ISO 639-5 and am reliably informed > > that the > > MA (Library of Congress) will be making the file publicly available > > for free > > download in the very near future. The standard was only published > > a couple > > of weeks ago and ISO had hoped that the Standard as Database > > initiative > > would be up and running before publication of ISO 639-5 - in the > > event it is > > not quite in place. I will let you know as soon as this becomes > > available. > > > > In the meantime, I have supplied Doug with the tables from the BSI > > copy of > > the standard for inclusion within the LSR - assuming the WG agrees. > > > > Best regards > > > > Debbie > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr] > > > Sent: 02 June 2008 09:30 > > > To: Debbie Garside > > > Cc: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group' > > > Subject: Re: ISO 639 language code addition rules... > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 01, 2008 at 12:00:08AM +0100, Debbie Garside > > > wrote a message of 80 lines which > > said: > > > > > > > ISO 639-5 was published on the 15/05/2008 > > > > > > Where can we download it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_9819_12735100.1212431732972 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In general, I think adding 639-5 codes would be a good idea, as long as the list will be publicly available by the time we release. I'm however a bit concerned by the issues raised by John, of codes that have the same denotation as 639-3 codes; we need to resolve that before we can have a full consensus. (We have to discuss this, but my preference for John's cases would be rather than excluding the codes, to deprecate&prefer the others.)

On the part of the two-letter primary language subtags, I think our best approach would just disallow them. While it would be very unlikely that this would ever happen, it is very simple for us to prevent any instabilities that might occur.

Mark

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
Hi, (editor hat on)

Assuming we do this, I need to create a reference for it in the draft. Could someone please provide me with:

- the official name of Part 5

- a pointer to the name, address, phone, URL, etc. of the MA or RA

Thanks,

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Debbie Garside
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:16 AM
> To: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer'
> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell'
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules...
>
> I have spoken with the Editor of ISO 639-5 and am reliably informed
> that the
> MA (Library of Congress) will be making the file publicly available
> for free
> download in the very near future.  The standard was only published
> a couple
> of weeks ago and ISO had hoped that the Standard as Database
> initiative
> would be up and running before publication of ISO 639-5 - in the
> event it is
> not quite in place. I will let you know as soon as this becomes
> available.
>
> In the meantime, I have supplied Doug with the tables from the BSI
> copy of
> the standard for inclusion within the LSR - assuming the WG agrees.
>
> Best regards
>
> Debbie
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]
> > Sent: 02 June 2008 09:30
> > To: Debbie Garside
> > Cc: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group'
> > Subject: Re: ISO 639 language code addition rules...
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 01, 2008 at 12:00:08AM +0100,  Debbie Garside
> > <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote  a message of 80 lines which
> said:
> >
> > > ISO 639-5 was published on the 15/05/2008
> >
> > Where can we download it?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark
------=_Part_9819_12735100.1212431732972-- --===============0740533599== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0740533599==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 11:42:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD98A3A67E5; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:42:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A953A68B5 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:42:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.876 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.876 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iMTAz9alkylA for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com (ti-out-0910.google.com [209.85.142.189]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB4C3A68AF for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id a6so533885tib.25 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:42:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=CJ41tZoIAyqYRrDAAXc1KmivMgJbXjA5bLSTDISaSTA=; b=LZYzkSiZJTM6OucntUhXw4+tON/AOBvnqkLfEp90B924ZN254m36I1W+QvkCpEMlrwzWHFHwdeaBjhONOWVtiTYiSeGKeuytGhvf0cq/I0IVN0SL+Qtu8PWynfNAkZa9mBtHZiZE+R87ib01jPd4QoKLPPYHXmWmWs8BAU8pmys= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rVkFgpvAPSBCKexgRc8CKhFtwmMNOvS7Oe1fnZAii5LqoYwHNnpco9WuFODKAb9z2r3GCkVCIuZUMISLyA24d/EMAKk0kQMfoeT2nFp2ayuLNBM9wSemAsGJv6uTcCTx98ncsOKwExNx03gBRF+GbiHyOnRts4zMN4Y5ASung7k= Received: by 10.150.54.1 with SMTP id c1mr13917674yba.62.1212432172546; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.206.3 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806021142s2f4c9348v2eaa4c215f126263@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:42:52 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F24F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F24F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4e115dfe2e0e9246 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1180056683==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1180056683== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9840_6342244.1212432172553" ------=_Part_9840_6342244.1212432172553 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We can live with having extlang if limited to only zh and possibly ar or sgn, and as long as we include Shawn's proviso, that the non-extlang versions (eg "yue-Hant") be also valid. That is, one of the two equivalent forms can be deprecated with a preferred value of the other. Mark On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 7:18 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > Martin wrote: > > > >1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF. > > > > This very, very much looks like a compromize. Of course, if we have > > at least one language with extlang, we need at least one subtag in > > the ABNF, so this is more a consequence of the proposals below than > > a proposal in itself. > > > > I personally understand the position of the XML Schema WG, and > > I also think that we should not change the wellformedness > > definition > > in RFC 4646, independent of how many (or how few, even zero) > > extlangs > > we use. > > We don't have to change it, but it seems slightly silly to keep the extra > extlangs around if we foreclose their use (writing code/tests for > never-to-be-implemented features is considered bad practice). > > > We have in this WG (though unofficially) produced test data > > that includes three extlangs to test implementations, and changing > > this doesn't seem to be a good idea to me (I can very quickly > > change > > my implementation, but I have no idea how many or how few > > downloaded/ > > deployed there already are). > > It would be okay with me to keep well-formedness the same. Having the > three-extlang well-formedness check doesn't hurt very many people. However: > a single extlang is much easier to code other operations for, such as > validation or tag generation. The first repeating option comes at variant, > at the end of the tag. Having written more than one implementation, I found > multiple extlangs one of the more difficult things to implement well each > time---and all for naught? > > I guess the more compelling issue for me is that well-formedness checking > ALREADY changes in 4646bis because we fixed the grandfathered production > (which was much more permissive). In practice the bigger problem are 3066 > well-formedness implementations, which we know are widespread. > > > > > > >3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed > > >languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name > > of > > >compatibility alone. > > > > I'm personally okay with any kind of selection that would be able > > to make > > the "rough consensus" that we currently have a bit less rough. As I > > know > > there are some people who, for good reasons, don't like cherry- > > picking, > > such a selection, so having a good justification would help. > > See Peter's email on this topic and see my justification just above: all > this talk about macrolanguages has obscured the reason we're doing it, which > is compatibility with existing tagging practice. Thus the Chinese, Sign > Language, and possibly Arabic cherries make sense. Stuff like Malay and > Konkani don't make the grade. > > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_9840_6342244.1212432172553 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We can live with having extlang if limited to only zh and possibly ar or sgn, and as long as we include Shawn's proviso, that the non-extlang versions (eg "yue-Hant") be also valid. That is, one of the two equivalent forms can be deprecated with a preferred value of the other. 

Mark

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 7:18 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
Martin wrote:

> >1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF.
>
> This very, very much looks like a compromize. Of course, if we have
> at least one language with extlang, we need at least one subtag in
> the ABNF, so this is more a consequence of the proposals below than
> a proposal in itself.
>
> I personally understand the position of the XML Schema WG, and
> I also think that we should not change the wellformedness
> definition
> in RFC 4646, independent of how many (or how few, even zero)
> extlangs
> we use.

We don't have to change it, but it seems slightly silly to keep the extra extlangs around if we foreclose their use (writing code/tests for never-to-be-implemented features is considered bad practice).

> We have in this WG (though unofficially) produced test data
> that includes three extlangs to test implementations, and changing
> this doesn't seem to be a good idea to me (I can very quickly
> change
> my implementation, but I have no idea how many or how few
> downloaded/
> deployed there already are).

It would be okay with me to keep well-formedness the same. Having the three-extlang well-formedness check doesn't hurt very many people. However: a single extlang is much easier to code other operations for, such as validation or tag generation. The first repeating option comes at variant, at the end of the tag. Having written more than one implementation, I found multiple extlangs one of the more difficult things to implement well each time---and all for naught?

I guess the more compelling issue for me is that well-formedness checking ALREADY changes in 4646bis because we fixed the grandfathered production (which was much more permissive). In practice the bigger problem are 3066 well-formedness implementations, which we know are widespread.


>
> >3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed
> >languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name
> of
> >compatibility alone.
>
> I'm personally okay with any kind of selection that would be able
> to make
> the "rough consensus" that we currently have a bit less rough. As I
> know
> there are some people who, for good reasons, don't like cherry-
> picking,
> such a selection, so having a good justification would help.

See Peter's email on this topic and see my justification just above: all this talk about macrolanguages has obscured the reason we're doing it, which is compatibility with existing tagging practice. Thus the Chinese, Sign Language, and possibly Arabic cherries make sense. Stuff like Malay and Konkani don't make the grade.


Addison
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark
------=_Part_9840_6342244.1212432172553-- --===============1180056683== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1180056683==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 11:52:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50F6428C12A; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:52:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24BEF3A6B10 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:52:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.693 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.693 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S+xANf4C4KQh for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3EE528C13A for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:51:11 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="57605938" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jun 2008 18:51:10 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m52Ip74F008613 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:51:07 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:51:07 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:51:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] a modest proposal... Thread-Index: AcjE4HlN7QW+UrrtRZGNjxqPcSq6VgAABTvg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F29A2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F24F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806021142s2f4c9348v2eaa4c215f126263@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806021142s2f4c9348v2eaa4c215f126263@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org You mean: Type: language Subtag: yue Description: Cantonese Chinese ... Type: extlang Subtag: yue Prefix: zh Description: Cantonese Chinese Preferred-Value: yue Deprecated: 2008-06-02 This gives me a great deal of heartburn, but I guess I could live with it. I really don't like or see much point in creating a class of dead-at-birth subtags. Interestingly, though, in practice it means that if the tag matches the extlang production (but not the grandfathered production), you trim the first subtag and then process from there. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:43 AM To: Phillips, Addison Cc: Martin Duerst; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... We can live with having extlang if limited to only zh and possibly ar or sgn, and as long as we include Shawn's proviso, that the non-extlang versions (eg "yue-Hant") be also valid. That is, one of the two equivalent forms can be deprecated with a preferred value of the other. Mark On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 7:18 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: Martin wrote: > >1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF. > > This very, very much looks like a compromize. Of course, if we have > at least one language with extlang, we need at least one subtag in > the ABNF, so this is more a consequence of the proposals below than > a proposal in itself. > > I personally understand the position of the XML Schema WG, and > I also think that we should not change the wellformedness > definition > in RFC 4646, independent of how many (or how few, even zero) > extlangs > we use. We don't have to change it, but it seems slightly silly to keep the extra extlangs around if we foreclose their use (writing code/tests for never-to-be-implemented features is considered bad practice). > We have in this WG (though unofficially) produced test data > that includes three extlangs to test implementations, and changing > this doesn't seem to be a good idea to me (I can very quickly > change > my implementation, but I have no idea how many or how few > downloaded/ > deployed there already are). It would be okay with me to keep well-formedness the same. Having the three-extlang well-formedness check doesn't hurt very many people. However: a single extlang is much easier to code other operations for, such as validation or tag generation. The first repeating option comes at variant, at the end of the tag. Having written more than one implementation, I found multiple extlangs one of the more difficult things to implement well each time---and all for naught? I guess the more compelling issue for me is that well-formedness checking ALREADY changes in 4646bis because we fixed the grandfathered production (which was much more permissive). In practice the bigger problem are 3066 well-formedness implementations, which we know are widespread. > > >3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed > >languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name > of > >compatibility alone. > > I'm personally okay with any kind of selection that would be able > to make > the "rough consensus" that we currently have a bit less rough. As I > know > there are some people who, for good reasons, don't like cherry- > picking, > such a selection, so having a good justification would help. See Peter's email on this topic and see my justification just above: all this talk about macrolanguages has obscured the reason we're doing it, which is compatibility with existing tagging practice. Thus the Chinese, Sign Language, and possibly Arabic cherries make sense. Stuff like Malay and Konkani don't make the grade. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Mark _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 12:12:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB7D3A6B92; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8143A6B4C for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:12:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X0Q2SbjZih6L for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E553F28C1B2 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:06:06 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:05:59 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "Phillips, Addison" , Mark Davis Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:05:57 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] a modest proposal... Thread-Index: AcjE4HlN7QW+UrrtRZGNjxqPcSq6VgAABTvgAAC0iyA= Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F24F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806021142s2f4c9348v2eaa4c215f126263@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F29A2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F29A2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org My original thought was to not have the deprecated field. I haven't thought that all the way through.... Type: language Subtag: yue Description: Cantonese Chinese ... Type: extlang Subtag: yue Prefix: zh Description: Cantonese Chinese Preferred-Value: yue - Shawn -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phillips, Addison Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:51 AM To: Mark Davis Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... You mean: Type: language Subtag: yue Description: Cantonese Chinese ... Type: extlang Subtag: yue Prefix: zh Description: Cantonese Chinese Preferred-Value: yue Deprecated: 2008-06-02 This gives me a great deal of heartburn, but I guess I could live with it. I really don't like or see much point in creating a class of dead-at-birth subtags. Interestingly, though, in practice it means that if the tag matches the extlang production (but not the grandfathered production), you trim the first subtag and then process from there. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:43 AM To: Phillips, Addison Cc: Martin Duerst; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... We can live with having extlang if limited to only zh and possibly ar or sgn, and as long as we include Shawn's proviso, that the non-extlang versions (eg "yue-Hant") be also valid. That is, one of the two equivalent forms can be deprecated with a preferred value of the other. Mark On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 7:18 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: Martin wrote: > >1. Restore a *single* extlang to the ABNF. > > This very, very much looks like a compromize. Of course, if we have > at least one language with extlang, we need at least one subtag in > the ABNF, so this is more a consequence of the proposals below than > a proposal in itself. > > I personally understand the position of the XML Schema WG, and > I also think that we should not change the wellformedness > definition > in RFC 4646, independent of how many (or how few, even zero) > extlangs > we use. We don't have to change it, but it seems slightly silly to keep the extra extlangs around if we foreclose their use (writing code/tests for never-to-be-implemented features is considered bad practice). > We have in this WG (though unofficially) produced test data > that includes three extlangs to test implementations, and changing > this doesn't seem to be a good idea to me (I can very quickly > change > my implementation, but I have no idea how many or how few > downloaded/ > deployed there already are). It would be okay with me to keep well-formedness the same. Having the three-extlang well-formedness check doesn't hurt very many people. However: a single extlang is much easier to code other operations for, such as validation or tag generation. The first repeating option comes at variant, at the end of the tag. Having written more than one implementation, I found multiple extlangs one of the more difficult things to implement well each time---and all for naught? I guess the more compelling issue for me is that well-formedness checking ALREADY changes in 4646bis because we fixed the grandfathered production (which was much more permissive). In practice the bigger problem are 3066 well-formedness implementations, which we know are widespread. > > >3. Cherry pick *only* the 'zh' (and possibly the 'ar') encompassed > >languages for registration as extlangs. This is done in the name > of > >compatibility alone. > > I'm personally okay with any kind of selection that would be able > to make > the "rough consensus" that we currently have a bit less rough. As I > know > there are some people who, for good reasons, don't like cherry- > picking, > such a selection, so having a good justification would help. See Peter's email on this topic and see my justification just above: all this talk about macrolanguages has obscured the reason we're doing it, which is compatibility with existing tagging practice. Thus the Chinese, Sign Language, and possibly Arabic cherries make sense. Stuff like Malay and Konkani don't make the grade. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- Mark _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 12:19:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0123A67AC; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:19:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 811FC3A65A5 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:19:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TAzhj6qaZVhV for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F5853A67B5 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:19:43 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,630,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="46733101" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jun 2008 19:19:42 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m52JJfMD026396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:19:42 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:19:41 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Shawn Steele , Mark Davis Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:19:40 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] a modest proposal... Thread-Index: AcjE4HlN7QW+UrrtRZGNjxqPcSq6VgAABTvgAAC0iyAAAB/cYA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2A04@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F24F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806021142s2f4c9348v2eaa4c215f126263@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F29A2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Under no circumstances would I support having both forms be canonical. > > My original thought was to not have the deprecated field. I > haven't thought that all the way through.... Preferred-Value requires Deprecated. Deprecated doesn't make it less valid. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 12:46:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E32E3A6B73; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:46:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF0F3A6B4A for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HyuV3pRriius for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com (ti-out-0910.google.com [209.85.142.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101C628C1DA for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id a6so563276tib.25 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=JaurBlRewAzyOrG4X+SDoNUGvR/BMjmQV3kC3V2c0nM=; b=UM6vQ0N5DYWtop9IAS+f0XloyvSI20Tj13nE3jP9FcULfmOIelyNY0Ib7DfbZrn+Tcqis5joJMeRpZpsZu1XDFSxVj3EMCwUdBME4LJfKENO5U5h0k1awvZ0rYCZlg8ZY4XWNZ6Iuy+GWrX9jXVlbt8h0yHRqTx77EUdgIJgEYE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=CdRQ3DHjKa9G6QhCvMZJ4qJ6nsEPPYuSixdhy3ECDN4m2JWDy34EjNckhHARZ3q87wZKq4b0OzRylfB36YPnDt0z8p/xBF1wUFTlbXJHPiqjwx9FpBnw8hKh0vYetkbbCWmz+UoVy3G4OD6E+IT43796qexeXLpldP7WOhsouoM= Received: by 10.150.92.12 with SMTP id p12mr4601653ybb.238.1212435699531; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.206.3 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806021241u6dc88247s93d2fa229747dcd4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:41:39 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2A04@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F24F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806021142s2f4c9348v2eaa4c215f126263@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F29A2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2A04@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7e3910fd0b05a5d5 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0175594950==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0175594950== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10267_11975983.1212435699549" ------=_Part_10267_11975983.1212435699549 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Addison. On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > Under no circumstances would I support having both forms be canonical. > > > > My original thought was to not have the deprecated field. I > > haven't thought that all the way through.... > > Preferred-Value requires Deprecated. Deprecated doesn't make it less valid. > > Addison > -- Mark ------=_Part_10267_11975983.1212435699549 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Addison.

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
Under no circumstances would I support having both forms be canonical.
>
> My original thought was to not have the deprecated field.  I
> haven't thought that all the way through....

Preferred-Value requires Deprecated. Deprecated doesn't make it less valid.

Addison



--
Mark ------=_Part_10267_11975983.1212435699549-- --===============0175594950== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0175594950==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 12:59:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5163A6AF9; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266B23A6A14 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.068 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.068 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uWcptUn14E+c for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE84F3A6AF9 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m52JwehN028016; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:58:40 +0200 Message-ID: <484450F0.4050100@malform.no> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:58:40 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48430452.3010105@malform.no> <011801c8c4d0$745aab80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <011801c8c4d0$745aab80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Mailinglist issue X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn 2008-06-02 18.48: > As mailing list admin... > >> From: "Leif Halvard Silli" >> To: "Kent Karlsson" >> Cc: "'LTRU Working Group'" >> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:19 PM >> Subject: [Ltru] Mailinglist issue (was: 639-5 (was RE: ISO 639 language code addition rules...) >> >> Kent Karlsson 2008-06-01 21.38: >> >> > >> > Phillips, Addison wrote: >> >> >> >> I generally agree with the idea that having some of this >> >> ancillary information [snip] >> >> >> I'll just not that I have not received Addison's message except as >> part of Kent's reply. > > I don't know why that would have happened. The message made > it to the archive (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg10688.html) > as well as to my own inbox vie tha mailing list. Later on, I received that message, and a whole bunch of other. There are, however, some problems with this list. This is not the first time messages have been delayed for some users. And also, it has been made clear that the mailinglist software is removing some bits of the Content-Type field, namely information about whether the message was sent with forma=flowed etc - which again causes bad user experiences when replying to those messages for many within this group. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 13:19:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A343A687B; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:19:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D9E3A67A4 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:19:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.66 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.66 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.939, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u1YgNYbgB6iV for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29B13A6915 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3GUy-0001eF-C4; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 16:19:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:19:20 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080602201920.GY27379@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <20080602082943.GB12243@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806021135p69632130u783a0bec60f9a86f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806021135p69632130u783a0bec60f9a86f@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > In general, I think adding 639-5 codes would be a good idea, as long as the > list will be publicly available by the time we release. I'm however a bit > concerned by the issues raised by John, of codes that have the same > denotation as 639-3 codes; we need to resolve that before we can have a full > consensus. (We have to discuss this, but my preference for John's cases > would be rather than excluding the codes, to deprecate&prefer the others.) I don't understand the purpose of this. When we added the 639-2 codes, we did not add 'eng' as a pre-deprecated subtag with a Preferred-Value of 'en'. If we have good reason to exclude something, we should exclude it. > On the part of the two-letter primary language subtags, I think our best > approach would just disallow them. While it would be very unlikely that this > would ever happen, it is very simple for us to prevent any instabilities > that might occur. 639-1 should stay in, because we might have another politically motivated split where the successor languages are individually important enough to get 639-1 codes. -- After fixing the Y2K bug in an application: John Cowan WELCOME TO cowan@ccil.org DATE: MONDAK, JANUARK 1, 1900 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 13:28:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9163A67F1; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:28:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B2E3A67F1 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:28:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.692 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.692 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tT0dS7DfhI1x for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331663A67D2 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3Gde-0002bx-EG; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 16:28:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:28:18 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080602202818.GZ27379@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F24F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806021142s2f4c9348v2eaa4c215f126263@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806021142s2f4c9348v2eaa4c215f126263@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > We can live with having extlang if limited to only zh and possibly ar or > sgn, and as long as we include Shawn's proviso, that the non-extlang > versions (eg "yue-Hant") be also valid. That is, one of the two equivalent > forms can be deprecated with a preferred value of the other. Same objection as for 639-5. Also, which is to be pre-deprecated, and why? -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org The Penguin shall hunt and devour all that is crufty, gnarly and bogacious; all code which wriggles like spaghetti, or is infested with blighting creatures, or is bound by grave and perilous Licences shall it capture. And in capturing shall it replicate, and in replicating shall it document, and in documentation shall it bring freedom, serenity and most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein. --Gospel of Tux _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 13:56:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F493A697A; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:56:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78BDE3A67D2 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:56:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.176 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.176 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.800, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w4Gdt1vqi5wA for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B83C3A6840 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so117887yxg.49 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:56:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=TnM9luVH1mSetF9I+GnfeBdqiTz/DvPKFHbgYs5CAOc=; b=g+kL1i42njdg4cMlk/ZIHJVJ+EKF8QDhF9u52UNT0QAS+8mXgbRyiadXeszQn63Oo21LOeKheyX2KGlYXgb6/YC4C1kNVNnZ2G1qqATYa+Kpsi95SI2FUhBEQQ3mJ1OF0i+Rmv2aEeK/a1yMrAfIZbKWaTdTvjrVcPr6L5MabFs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=vMfUUf3gZ61C1Qy6eZAbDOSmzxFDEg26KbmD2A/jWVcp7d7FbH6ar0301TWA9mPvOY4x+ZNyAfhDIie9UZ/uun7MDP3eq1nW/1HYzf1CYPbbWbShpD5sAPWRnpyKd8VTOrbZIYWvAt0Zkb9MuY5n7jrSv1eHUafFStWM1PyAr58= Received: by 10.151.154.20 with SMTP id g20mr2480551ybo.59.1212440203120; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.206.3 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806021356l721b0e01m505197c0f088c165@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:56:42 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080602201920.GY27379@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <20080602082943.GB12243@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806021135p69632130u783a0bec60f9a86f@mail.gmail.com> <20080602201920.GY27379@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5bd20e273429c95b Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0441952487==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0441952487== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10702_25594278.1212440203039" ------=_Part_10702_25594278.1212440203039 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 1:19 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > In general, I think adding 639-5 codes would be a good idea, as long as > the > > list will be publicly available by the time we release. I'm however a bit > > concerned by the issues raised by John, of codes that have the same > > denotation as 639-3 codes; we need to resolve that before we can have a > full > > consensus. (We have to discuss this, but my preference for John's cases > > would be rather than excluding the codes, to deprecate&prefer the > others.) > > I don't understand the purpose of this. When we added the 639-2 codes, > we did not add 'eng' as a pre-deprecated subtag with a Preferred-Value of > 'en'. If we have good reason to exclude something, we should exclude it. It is not so black and white. The advantage of adding something as deprecated is that we have a formal relation between it and the preferred-value. That helps in cases where people have expected that everything in a particular set (eg 639-5) would work. I wouldn't actually mind having "eng" in and deprecated to "en"; we end up having to do that in software anyway because it occurs sufficiently often. > > On the part of the two-letter primary language subtags, I think our best > > approach would just disallow them. While it would be very unlikely that > this > > would ever happen, it is very simple for us to prevent any instabilities > > that might occur. > > 639-1 should stay in, because we might have another politically motivated > split where the successor languages are individually important enough > to get 639-1 codes. That is possible, and now that I think about it the above logic would point in that direction. I guess the only restriction we'd have to make is that it cannot be introduced *after* an equivalent three-letter code. > > -- > After fixing the Y2K bug in an application: John Cowan > WELCOME TO cowan@ccil.org > DATE: MONDAK, JANUARK 1, 1900 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > -- Mark ------=_Part_10702_25594278.1212440203039 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 1:19 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> In general, I think adding 639-5 codes would be a good idea, as long as the
> list will be publicly available by the time we release. I'm however a bit
> concerned by the issues raised by John, of codes that have the same
> denotation as 639-3 codes; we need to resolve that before we can have a full
> consensus. (We have to discuss this, but my preference for John's cases
> would be rather than excluding the codes, to deprecate&prefer the others.)

I don't understand the purpose of this.  When we added the 639-2 codes,
we did not add 'eng' as a pre-deprecated subtag with a Preferred-Value of
'en'.  If we have good reason to exclude something, we should exclude it.

It is not so black and white. The advantage of adding something as deprecated is that we have a formal relation between it and the preferred-value. That helps in cases where people have expected that everything in a particular set (eg 639-5) would work.

I wouldn't actually mind having "eng" in and deprecated to "en"; we end up having to do that in software anyway because it occurs sufficiently often.
 
> On the part of the two-letter primary language subtags, I think our best
> approach would just disallow them. While it would be very unlikely that this
> would ever happen, it is very simple for us to prevent any instabilities
> that might occur.

639-1 should stay in, because we might have another politically motivated
split where the successor languages are individually important enough
to get 639-1 codes.

That is possible, and now that I think about it the above logic would point in that direction. I guess the only restriction we'd have to make is that it cannot be introduced *after* an equivalent three-letter code.



--
After fixing the Y2K bug in an application:     John Cowan
       WELCOME TO <censored>                   cowan@ccil.org
       DATE: MONDAK, JANUARK 1, 1900           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan



--
Mark ------=_Part_10702_25594278.1212440203039-- --===============0441952487== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0441952487==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 14:02:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BAE3A67D9; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04183A67D9 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:02:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c9tAMi0Z4qXb for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F3BF3A67A6 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so534576ywj.49 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:02:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=WZk1HykryvvbyBljO29w+MeeedpfSdcja6f49XQuKfQ=; b=OuezcJDjvvK/7j0gPwwYSyFO+2dYlIxGFvw046L8QWo9bupS3dkpNvIJBTAgz5Q5XJe4b8Y1Rp8JXtieO+ayldNcGNFErGWl3H4jVIWMN5Lf5ye+po/Sid48CAUHP2xMJ5INxMKIjZCeQvs9hDCx6yrTA4L78zYMhNeGKddUBMU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Yb2qTdOg07zj2QTeNWXnJw0zoCkkMdNUm2QxAvR7BLT3s8Yf6MvgeQvJL/a6gEVzOczQjrLoKqRPp+MtmAPJcmA+kK5E90aP/80CWEIq08xJoiYjduAC0HtdI+Xij+1J3tkN8VgCcB6E//faLZu5maHDzvG0EMyW9qKZAkqSWKs= Received: by 10.151.150.13 with SMTP id c13mr11415601ybo.32.1212440559811; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.206.3 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806021402o52b07ac9r3e97415f8c257cad@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:02:39 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080602202818.GZ27379@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F24F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806021142s2f4c9348v2eaa4c215f126263@mail.gmail.com> <20080602202818.GZ27379@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a0f586783b3d1ae9 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1464191302==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1464191302== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10732_17383798.1212440559820" ------=_Part_10732_17383798.1212440559820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Add+deprecate allows people to have the forms they really care about, and yet preserves a formal relationship between them, so that people can convert between them. We're trying to find a compromise here, so that we can work our way out of this impasse! As to which is deprecated, the simpler way would be to deprecate the extlang form, as Addison said. If it were necessary to achieve a compromise, we could live with deprecating the conventional form. Mark On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 1:28 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis scripsit: > > We can live with having extlang if limited to only zh and possibly ar or > > sgn, and as long as we include Shawn's proviso, that the non-extlang > > versions (eg "yue-Hant") be also valid. That is, one of the two > equivalent > > forms can be deprecated with a preferred value of the other. > > Same objection as for 639-5. Also, which is to be pre-deprecated, > and why? > > -- > John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > The Penguin shall hunt and devour all that is crufty, gnarly and > bogacious; all code which wriggles like spaghetti, or is infested with > blighting creatures, or is bound by grave and perilous Licences shall it > capture. And in capturing shall it replicate, and in replicating shall > it document, and in documentation shall it bring freedom, serenity and > most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein. --Gospel of > Tux > -- Mark ------=_Part_10732_17383798.1212440559820 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Add+deprecate allows people to have the forms they really care about, and yet preserves a formal relationship between them, so that people can convert between them.

We're trying to find a compromise here, so that we can work our way out of this impasse!

As to which is deprecated, the simpler way would be to deprecate the extlang form, as Addison said. If it were necessary to achieve a compromise, we could live with deprecating the conventional form.

Mark

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 1:28 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:
> We can live with having extlang if limited to only zh and possibly ar or
> sgn, and as long as we include Shawn's proviso, that the non-extlang
> versions (eg "yue-Hant") be also valid. That is, one of the two equivalent
> forms can be deprecated with a preferred value of the other.

Same objection as for 639-5.  Also, which is to be pre-deprecated,
and why?

--
John Cowan    http://ccil.org/~cowan  cowan@ccil.org
The Penguin shall hunt and devour all that is crufty, gnarly and
bogacious; all code which wriggles like spaghetti, or is infested with
blighting creatures, or is bound by grave and perilous Licences shall it
capture.  And in capturing shall it replicate, and in replicating shall
it document, and in documentation shall it bring freedom, serenity and
most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein.  --Gospel of Tux



--
Mark
------=_Part_10732_17383798.1212440559820-- --===============1464191302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1464191302==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 14:31:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47FB53A67F1; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF03D3A68D4 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:31:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.039 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.039 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IlENbkVaFaSQ for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860693A67F1 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:30:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=N0xy+taGOnSBbszR/WgpTHvUvpr1h+0XzCOu5EtvyerDKsecIjkPvtbmQc4vdyC6; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.89.243] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K3Hba-0008OW-2z for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 17:30:14 -0400 Message-ID: <001501c8c4f7$eb92ece0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><006101c8c37b$67efc660$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F21BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48430452.3010105@malform.no> <011801c8c4d0$745aab80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <484450F0.4050100@malform.no> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:30:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b3432c866eb55ce6bd6e386ab7f744e621350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.89.243 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Mailinglist issue X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As list admin... > From: "Leif Halvard Silli" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "'LTRU Working Group'" > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:58 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Mailinglist issue ... > Later on, I received that message, and a whole bunch of other. > There are, however, some problems with this list. This is not the > first time messages have been delayed for some users. And also, it > has been made clear that the mailinglist software is removing some > bits of the Content-Type field, namely information about whether > the message was sent with forma=flowed etc - which again causes > bad user experiences when replying to those messages for many > within this group. For such problems, which are entirely out of the hands of us list admins, please refer to ietf-action@ietf.org. Include *COMPLETE* headers, after of course looking at those headers to verify that any outrageous delays are happening within the ietf.org or amsl.com domains, and not somewhere "out there". My recommendations to all list subscribers: (1) DO NOT reply to posters or cc: individuals - just use the mailing list address. This will significantly reduce the amount of out-of-order stuff people receive, and makes the discussion *much* easier to follow. (2) DO NOT use format=flowed. In my experience, it doesn't work well anyway. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 15:43:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E933A6967; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD973A68D1 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:43:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.910, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k85JaX2ke723 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851C23A68B9 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3IkV-00012x-8n; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:43:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:43:31 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080602224331.GA27379@mercury.ccil.org> References: <001201c8c34b$668bca60$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <128101c8c372$130ac4a0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <20080602082943.GB12243@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806021135p69632130u783a0bec60f9a86f@mail.gmail.com> <20080602201920.GY27379@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20806021356l721b0e01m505197c0f088c165@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806021356l721b0e01m505197c0f088c165@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > That is possible, and now that I think about it the above logic would point > in that direction. I guess the only restriction we'd have to make is that it > cannot be introduced *after* an equivalent three-letter code. 2.2.1 of RFC 4646 already says that. -- We do, doodley do, doodley do, doodley do, John Cowan What we must, muddily must, muddily must, muddily must; Muddily do, muddily do, muddily do, muddily do, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Until we bust, bodily bust, bodily bust, bodily bust. --Bokonon _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 16:36:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8718D3A69C7; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0373A6A48 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:36:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.688 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.688 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.089, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9yueQ1xgIlPt for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9857E3A6A5F for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:35:34 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,459,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="57843344" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jun 2008 23:35:34 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m52NZXl2018976 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:35:34 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:35:33 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:35:28 -0700 Thread-Topic: early proto draft-15... Thread-Index: AcjFCVbcR7hEy3Z1TOSj2UeRiJgMag== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2EB0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] early proto draft-15... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org All (editor hat firmly in place), I have just now posted on Inter-Locale an early prototype of draft-15 restoring extlang. A half-hearted attempt to put my proposed compromise is also in this version. I have also included the proposal to incorporate ISO 639-5. I have not included Mark's proposed "deprecated at birth" proposal for extlangs (too late for this pass and too soon to know the reaction). This SHOULD NOT be taken to imply any consensus determination or personal position on any of these proposals: it is merely the editors trying to get the text under control and give us something to work from. This text is subject to change or update, although I will alert the list when I update the server. Other editorial and flow changes have been incorporated here as well. The links are to "Editor's Copy" on the home page or: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-15.xml http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-15.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-15.html The diffs are: http://tinyurl.com/3whwwg (hwdiff) http://tinyurl.com/54zlqq (wdiff, aka side-by-side) Comments welcome. Addison (for the editors) Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 16:51:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AEC33A69E6; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:51:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850A33A69E6 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:51:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.418 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.418 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.419, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_39=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6fpSxZggWwe7 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E3E3A6A69 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3JnZ-00005u-Ed; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:50:45 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:50:45 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080602235045.GA8082@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602173204.0987cc40@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F24F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806021142s2f4c9348v2eaa4c215f126263@mail.gmail.com> <20080602202818.GZ27379@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20806021402o52b07ac9r3e97415f8c257cad@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806021402o52b07ac9r3e97415f8c257cad@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > Add+deprecate allows people to have the forms they really care about, and > yet preserves a formal relationship between them, so that people can convert > between them. That's a good point. > We're trying to find a compromise here, so that we can work our way out of > this impasse! Agreed. > As to which is deprecated, the simpler way would be to deprecate the extlang > form, as Addison said. If it were necessary to achieve a compromise, we > could live with deprecating the conventional form. I can live with pre-deprecation, provided it is the conventional form that is pre-deprecated. -- A rose by any other name John Cowan may smell as sweet, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan but if you called it an onion cowan@ccil.org you'd get cooks very confused. --RMS _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 18:42:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A663A6A81; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:42:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DF73A6A69 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:42:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.408 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.408 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.190, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id adCUzawlK3cx for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DCAD23A6AB4 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30413 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2008 01:40:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.29) with ESMTP; 03 Jun 2008 01:40:36 -0000 Message-ID: <00a401c8c51a$d1e88fc0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:40:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFydGluIER1ZXJzdCA8ZHVlcnN0IGF0IGl0IGRvdCBhb3lhbWEgZG90IGFjIGRvdCBqcD4gd3Jv dGU6Cgo+IEkgYWdyZWUgYWJvdXQgdGhlIHByb2JhYmlsaXR5IG9mIGZ1cnRoZXIgcmVnaXN0cmF0 aW9ucyBpbiA2MzktMS4gQnV0Cj4gbXkgZ3Vlc3MgaXMgdGhhdCBpZiBhbnlib2R5IG1hbmFnZXMg dG8gZ2V0IGEgJ25ldycgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgcmVnaXN0ZXJlZAo+IGlzIDYzOS0xLCB0aGV5IHdpbGwg aGF2ZSBhIGJpZyBpbnRlcmVzdCB0byBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIHVzZSB0aGlzCj4gdHdvLWxldHRlciBj b2RlIG9uIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldC4KPgo+IEFjdHVhbGx5LCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBtYWluIHJlYXNv biBmb3IgbmV3IDYzOS0xIHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbnMgd2lsbCBub3QKPiBiZSBkaXNjb3ZlcmllcyBv ZiBuZXcgbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIHdpdGggYmlnIHBvcHVsYXRpb25zIG9mIHNwZWFrZXJzLCBidXQKPiBw b2xpdGljYWxseSBtb3RpdmF0ZWQgc3BsaXRzIGFuZCBjaGFuZ2VzIHN1Y2ggYXMgdGhlIEtyb2F0 aWFuL1NlcmJpYW4KPiBjYXNlLiBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIGl0IGlzIHBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIGNhbGwg c3VjaCBjYXNlcyBhYnN1cmQuIEV2ZW4gaWYKPiB3ZSBkb24ndCBzZWUgc3VjaCBhIGNhc2Ugb24g dGhlIGhvcml6b24sIHRoaW5ncyBjYW4gY2hhbmdlIHF1aXRlCj4gcXVpY2tseSB3aGVuIHRoZXkg Y2hhbmdlLiBTbyBJIGRvbid0IHdhbnQgdG8gcnVsZSBvdXQgZnVydGhlciA2MzktMQo+IHJlZ2lz dHJhdGlvbnMuCgpJJ2QgYmV0dGVyIGdvIGdldCB0aGUgZG9vci4gIFNvbWVvbmUgaXMgYmFuZ2lu ZyBvbiBpdCBhbmQgc2hvdXRpbmcsCiJNb250ZW5lZ3JpbiEgIE1vbnRlbmVncmluISIKCi0tCkRv dWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAj MTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0 ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 20:37:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A78243A69EB; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:37:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F1C3A69DD for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:37:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.057, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EqC1jmVUQ8ru for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A09A3A69CA for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:37:27 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:37:27 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:37:26 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjFGw3CTjc6zZRBRAyjRfF2gP4auwAD3YFA Message-ID: References: <00a401c8c51a$d1e88fc0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <00a401c8c51a$d1e88fc0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Doug Ewell > > Actually, I think the main reason for new 639-1 registrations will > not > > be discoveries of new languages with big populations of speakers, but > > politically motivated splits and changes such as the Kroatian/Serbian > > case. I don't think it is possible to call such cases absurd. Even if > > we don't see such a case on the horizon, things can change quite > > quickly when they change. So I don't want to rule out further 639-1 > > registrations. > > I'd better go get the door. Someone is banging on it and shouting, > "Montenegrin! Montenegrin!" So far, nobody has submitted a formal request to the JAC for this. If they did, and assuming the JAC agreed that this is actually different from srp (note that drafts of the constitution had wording suggesting that these are one language), the default position of the JAC would be not to add an alpha-2 ID. Of course, I can't guarantee 100% that an alpha-2 would not be added -- that can't be guaranteed until the text of ISO 639-1 is changed to say that no more code elements will be added. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 21:32:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B733A6B49; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:32:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0C93A68EC for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.07 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.07 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9LSrL7mgvU43 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852573A6B83 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m534VT66024263 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:31:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 6dc6_ef59636e_3125_11dd_8754_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:31:29 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:54844) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:26:04 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080603101656.082f9ac0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:20:40 +0900 To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080602172638.09885430@localhost> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602172638.09885430@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 17:31 08/06/02, Martin Duerst wrote: >[co-chair hat on] Still on. >On the other hand, I don't remember seeing anybody actively >opposing to this proposal, which is definitely a good sign. >If you have support/comments, or a somewhat different proposal >for a compromize, don't hesitate to send it to the list. Actually, this was inaccurate, Karen expressed her concerns. Karen, could you be more explicit about where this proposal makes your guidance task worse? Is the main problem with the fact that there would be two allowed ways to tag e.g. Cantonese, one of them deprecated? Or is the main problem that there would be only extlangs for Chinese and Arabic, but not for some other languages (e.g. Malay)? Or anything else? Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 22:12:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B933A6B11; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:12:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7383A6943 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:12:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.453 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.453 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.145, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tLtQmHHG7fzi for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C9BA63A67EE for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11263 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2008 05:12:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.183) with ESMTP; 03 Jun 2008 05:12:00 -0000 Message-ID: <00d501c8c538$5a1894e0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602163253.05ac1220@localhost> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:11:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSdtIGdvaW5nIHRvIHRyeSB0byBmb3JtYXQgdGhpcyBtYW51YWxseSBpbnRvIDcyIGNvbHVtbnMs IHdoaWNoIHdvbid0IGJlCnByZXR0eSBvciBmdW4uCgpNYXJ0aW4gRHVlcnN0IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBP a2F5LCBoZXJlIGlzIERvdWcncyBwcm9wb3NhbCB0aGUgd2F5IEkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCBpdCwgaW4g dGFibGUgZm9ybQo+IChwbGVhc2UgdXNlIG5vbi1wcm9wb3J0aW9uYWwgZm9udCB0byB2aWV3IGl0 KToKPiBbYnkgdGhlIHdheSwgSSBsaWtlIEFkZGlzb24ncyBwcm9wb3NhbCwgdG9vXQo+IC4uLgoK KEpvaG4gQ293YW4gZmlsbGVkIGluIHRoZSByZW1haW5pbmcgY291bnRzOyBub3Qgc3VycHJpc2lu Z2x5LCB0aGV5Cm1hdGNoZWQgbWluZSBwZXJmZWN0bHkuKQoKTWFydGluIGNvbnRpbnVlZDoKCj4g SSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGdvZXMgaW50byB0aGUgcmlnaHQgZGlyZWN0aW9uLiBJJ20gbm90IHN1cmUg 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Lmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5n dWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f XwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 22:13:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54693A6B3A; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:13:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB72D3A6B2C for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:13:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, 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([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:13:09 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Duerst , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:13:06 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] a modest proposal... Thread-Index: AcjFMsA/dhhIFOhUTgSi8jzB2d6ivwABZjaQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F3135@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C706@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080602172638.09885430@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20080603101656.082f9ac0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080603101656.082f9ac0@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Actually, the proposal was NOT to make two ways to tag Cantonese. That was Mark's addendum today. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:21 PM > To: Phillips, Addison; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... > > At 17:31 08/06/02, Martin Duerst wrote: > >[co-chair hat on] > > Still on. > > >On the other hand, I don't remember seeing anybody actively > >opposing to this proposal, which is definitely a good sign. > >If you have support/comments, or a somewhat different proposal > >for a compromize, don't hesitate to send it to the list. > > Actually, this was inaccurate, Karen expressed her concerns. > Karen, could you be more explicit about where this proposal > makes your guidance task worse? Is the main problem with > the fact that there would be two allowed ways to tag e.g. > Cantonese, one of them deprecated? Or is the main problem > that there would be only extlangs for Chinese and Arabic, > but not for some other languages (e.g. Malay)? Or anything > else? > > Regards, Martin. > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp > mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 22:13:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E79A73A6AF4; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:13:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92843A6AEB for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.159 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.159 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.161, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_39=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78DEkYAtNtiK for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E9983A67EE for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21267 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2008 05:13:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.22) with ESMTP; 03 Jun 2008 05:13:32 -0000 Message-ID: <00d801c8c538$90b7e370$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:13:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyA8bWFyayBkb3QgZGF2aXMgYXQgaWN1IGRhc2ggcHJvamVjdCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3 cm90ZToKCj4gQWRkK2RlcHJlY2F0ZSBhbGxvd3MgcGVvcGxlIHRvIGhhdmUgdGhlIGZvcm1zIHRo ZXkgcmVhbGx5IGNhcmUgYWJvdXQsCj4gYW5kIHlldCBwcmVzZXJ2ZXMgYSBmb3JtYWwgcmVsYXRp b25zaGlwIGJldHdlZW4gdGhlbSwgc28gdGhhdCBwZW9wbGUKPiBjYW4gY29udmVydCBiZXR3ZWVu IHRoZW0uCgrzoICB86CBpfOgga5TbyB0aGVyZSByZWFsbHkgaXNuJ3QgYW55IHN0aWdtYSBhdHRh Y2hlZCB0byB0aGUgdXNlIG9mCmRlcHJlY2F0ZWQtYXQtYmlydGggaXRlbXMsIGFmdGVyIGFsbD/z oICB86CBvwoKSSBrbmV3IE1hcmsgd2FzIGEgYmlnIGJlbGlldmVyIGluIGRlcHJlY2F0aW9uIGF0 IGJpcnRoLCBidXQgZXZlbiBJJ20Kc3VycHJpc2VkIHRvIHNlZSBoaW0gcmVjb21tZW5kIGl0IGZv ciBzb2x2aW5nIHR3byBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcHJvYmxlbXMgYXQKb25jZS4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwg ICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDov L3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUt Y2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ll dGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 22:24:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F3E3A6B3A; 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03 Jun 2008 05:24:43 -0000 Message-ID: <00e401c8c53a$20b188e0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:24:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Mailinglist issue X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TXkgbGFzdCBwdWJsaWMgY29tbWVudCBvbiB0aGlzLCBhbmQgdGhlbiBJIGFtIGRvbmUgd2l0aCB0 aGlzIG1hbnVhbApsaW5lLWJyZWFraW5nIGdhcmJhZ2UuCgpTdGVwaGFuZSBCb3J0em1leWVyIDxi b3J0em1leWVyIGF0IG5pYyBkb3QgZnI+IHdyb3RlOgoKPj4gT3V0bG9vayBFeHByZXNzIHNlbmRz IG15IG1haWxzIGFzOgo+PiBDb250ZW50LVR5cGU6IHRleHQvcGxhaW47IGZvcm1hdD1mbG93ZWQ7 IGNoYXJzZXQ9InV0Zi04IjsKPj4gcmVwbHktdHlwZT1vcmlnaW5hbAo+Cj4gVGhpcyBpcyBwZXJm ZWN0bHkgc2Vuc2libGUgYnV0LCB3aGVuIHlvdXIgbWVzc2FnZSBhcnJpdmVzLCB0aGVyZSBpcwo+ IG9ubHkgdGhlICd0ZXh0L3BsYWluOyBjaGFyc2V0JyBwYXJ0LCB0aGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0IHRoZSBt ZXNzYWdlIGlzCj4gZmxvd2VkIChSRkMgMzY3NikgaXMgbG9zdCAobWF5IGJlIGEgYnJva2VuIGdh dGV3YXkgc29tZXdoZXJlKS4KPgo+IFNvLCBpdCBpcyBub3QgYSBzdXJwcmlzZSBpZiBJIGhhdmUg dGhlIHNhbWUgcHJvYmxlbSB0aGFuIE1hcnRpbiB3aXRoCj4geW91ciBtZXNzYWdlcy4KClNpbmNl IHRoZXkncmUgZ2V0dGluZyB0aHJvdWdoIHRvIHNvbWUgcGVvcGxlLCBhbmQgSSBoYXZlbid0IGNo YW5nZWQKYW55dGhpbmcgYWJvdXQgbXkgbWFpbCBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uIGxhdGVseSwgdGhlcmUg ZG9lc24ndCBzZWVtIHRvIGJlCm11Y2ggSSBjYW4gZG8gYWJvdXQgdGhpcy4KClJhbmR5IFByZXN1 aG4gPHJhbmR5IHVuZGVyc2NvcmUgcHJlc3VobiBhdCBtaW5kc3ByaW5nIGRvdCBjb20+IHdyb3Rl OgoKPiBNeSByZWNvbW1lbmRhdGlvbnMgdG8gYWxsIGxpc3Qgc3Vic2NyaWJlcnM6Cj4gLi4uCj4g ICAoMikgRE8gTk9UIHVzZSBmb3JtYXQ9Zmxvd2VkLiAgSW4gbXkgZXhwZXJpZW5jZSwgaXQgZG9l c24ndCB3b3JrCj4gICAgICAgICB3ZWxsIGFueXdheS4KClNpbmNlIEkndmUgYmVlbiBjYWxsZWQg b3V0IG9uIHRoaXMsIG15IHNldHRpbmcgaW4gT3V0bG9vayBFeHByZXNzIGlzOgoKVG9vbHMgfCBP cHRpb25zIHwgU2VuZCB8IFBsYWluIFRleHQgU2V0dGluZ3MgfApBdXRvbWF0aWNhbGx5IHdyYXAg dGV4dCBhdCA3MiBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzLCB3aGVuIHNlbmRpbmcuCgpTbyBJIGRvbid0IGtub3cgd2h5 IE9FIGlzIHNlbmRpbmcgImZsb3dlZCwiIGJ1dCBJIGRvbid0IGtub3cgaG93IHRvIHR1cm4KaXQg b2ZmLiAgSWYgYW55b25lIGRvZXMsIHBsZWFzZSBzZW5kIG1lIGhlbHAgT0ZGLUxJU1QuICAoTm8g YWR2aWNlIHRvCmNoYW5nZSBtYWlsZXJzIG9yIG9wZXJhdGluZyBzeXN0ZW1zLCBwbGVhc2UuKQoK LS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAg VVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwu Y2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 22:52:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A883A68E0; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:52:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDEBD3A68F6 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:52:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.092 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.092 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.507, BAYES_40=-0.185, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fAwFuXtOeZbp for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SG2EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (outbound-sin.frontbridge.com [207.46.51.80]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4323A6840 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail182-sin-R.bigfish.com (10.3.40.3) by SG2EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (10.3.40.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:09 +0000 Received: from mail182-sin (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail182-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6295100C0; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:09 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-15(zz98dR1442J3117Kzzzzz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail182-sin (MessageSwitch) id 1212472327105652_12309; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:07 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (mail8.fw-sd.sony.com [160.33.66.75]) by mail182-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4996F58050; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m535q5rJ024908; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:05 GMT Received: from ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com (ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.77]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m535q51v010385; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:05 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.74]) by ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.77]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:52:05 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: Mark Davis Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:52:04 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjCb86l6vRsciwpQgupBs8Mw6qTXwChM1JQ Message-ID: <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost> <002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost> <001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark, I think what bothers me more than extlang or no-extlang is the narrowing I perceive in "zh" that seems to come with the no-extlang strategy. The historic registrations of other tags (such as zh-yue and zh-min-nan) clearly shows that "zh" has always included Cantonese and other Asian languages. Yes, I know that a very overwhelming number of these documents are in written Mandarin. But we have an overall rule that indicates the valid tag is the shortest tag that represents the language. It seems like you are indicating that "zh" is the shortest tag for Mandarin, but not Cantonese after RFC 4646bis. How can this be true without there being a narrowing? While your spiders may be able to give us some kind of an idea of the languages used on the web, xml:lang and ISO tags have a lot of other uses in B2B applications and asset databases. I'm not saying that there is likely more content tagged "zh-yue" when compared to other "Chinese" content, but the percentages for the a/v assets I look at are not statistically insignificant. We have promised backwards compatibility, and the group has repeatedly said that narrowing an ISO semantic is not allowed. Removing extlang will force me to make some systems tweaks, nothing insurmountable, but I am concerned about the impact on other people who aren't represented in this small group. I don't have a whole lot of insight into some of the other languages that use extlang. I'm wondering if the users of those languages have similar issues where there may be mutually intelligible written forms that are not mutually intelligible when spoken (or vice versa). Mark wrote: >Why? While 639-3 now specifies clearly that "de" means (for example) >just Standard German, while "zh" means Any Chinese, this clarity of >specification was not present earlier. The code "zh" has been used >in the past for Mandarin, overwhelmingly so; not just 99% or 99.9%, >but many 9's. I agree the "zh" code has always been vague, but treating it as synonymous with Mandarin contradicts previous registrations with IANA. It is the best current tag for Mandarin, but its use for a significant number of Mandarin documents does not prove or disprove whether its historical semantic includes Cantonese and other Chinese languages. >As you said, the tendency was to use illegal (or >private use codes) for non-Mandarin content. A couple of you have been misreading me on this. The overwhelming tendency was to use made-up codes for ANY audio Chinese. I see a lot of "MAN" for Mandarin, which is, of course, a really bad idea. It's typical to see the written variants of Chinese classified as Traditional or Simplified with zh-[etc.], but audio will use bad codes for spoken Mandarin AND Cantonese. > Note also that really the whole premise of extlang is that >'zh' continues to normally map to Mandarin. But not Cantonese? >My real point is that if a query for 'ar' really means "give me any >kind of Arabic", then a query for 'ar' would be almost meaningless, >since it could return any of a number of mutually incomprehensible >alternatives. For anyone other than a giant international search engine, I think fallbacks like these are a business decision. Appropriate fallbacks for a corporate or other content sites likely depend on the content the publisher has to offer and the intended geographical reach of the site. I'm guessing that even rather forward-thinking organizations will not have content represented in more than 50 languages. Academic archives will certainly have more, but will they use the elaborate fallback logic or a direct lookup? >Although 639-3 now defines it to be "any Arabic", in >practice what users will expect to get back is Standard Arabic, and >they would be unpleasantly surprised to get back other varieties. Fallback only occurs when the user's language of choice is not available, right? What would be a better fallback? Is it better not to serve up alternate content at all? >Note that this is not actually RFC4646 conformant: zh-cmn-TW is not >valid. Of course, when this was assigned this was presumed to be future-valid. It's when I started thinking about just using "zh-TW" for this under RFC 4646bis that I began to get concerned. >Mark: Your list is already ambiguous for columns 1 and 2; you are using >"yue" for two different things (written and spoken). The only change >it really makes is that you don't have a term for "any chinese". The list is not ambiguous as far as I'm concerned. I don't require unique codes for spoken and written forms except when a script tag distinguishes two similar pieces of content. I refuse to use a script tag to identify audio language, but I don't currently have a need to distinguish forms of written Cantonese so "zh-yue" is fine for both and I don't see any potential for misinterpretation. I don't see my competitors making distinctions here either. >The only purpose I have heard for extlang *is* for fallback; that's >why the document goes into (painful) depth on that topic. The arguments I've put forward have had little to do with fallback and more to do with promoting accurate tagging in the future. You just don't seem to think they are valid arguments. So I think your previous statement above is inaccurate. For >identification alone, "zh" and "zh-cmn" really mean just the same >thing. It is only in the context of matching (filtering and lookup) >that they differ in semantics *because of their behavior*: where >"cmn" means simply Cantonese, "zh-cmn" effectively means "Cantonese >but fallback to any Chinese". Think you mistyped here so not sure if I agree or disagree. I'd like to see a solution where developers won't need to rely on too much conditional linguistic logic; there are clearly preferred tags; the rules are clear; and ideally, there's no cherry picking. I think cherry picking makes rules harder to explain. Regards, Karen Broome _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 22:55:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC933A6B01; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CAE3A6A8A for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:55:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.140, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4k3xoUVOZBHA for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.38]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 47B533A68E0 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26310 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2008 05:55:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.38) with ESMTP; 03 Jun 2008 05:54:58 -0000 Message-ID: <00fa01c8c53e$5a78a780$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:54:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] early proto draft-15... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEkgaGF2ZSBhbHNvIGluY2x1ZGVkIHRoZSBwcm9wb3NhbCB0byBpbmNvcnBvcmF0ZSBJU08gNjM5 LTUuCgpJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBkcmFmdCBzYXlzIHRoaXMsIGJ1dCB0byBiZSBzdXJlIEknbSByZWFk aW5nIGl0IGNvcnJlY3RseToKCkZvciBjb2xsZWN0aW9uIGNvZGVzLCBpbiBjYXNlcyB3aGVyZSB0 aGUgbmFtZXMgKGFuZCBkZW5vdGF0aW9ucykgZGlmZmVyIApzbGlnaHRseSBiZXR3ZWVuIElTTyA2 MzktMiBhbmQgNjM5LTUgLS0gdXN1YWxseSBiZWNhdXNlIDYzOS0yIGluY2x1ZGVzIAoiKE90aGVy KSIgLS0gd2UgYXJlIHVzaW5nIHRoZSA2MzktNSBuYW1lIGFuZCBub3QgdGhlIDYzOS0yIG5hbWUs IHJpZ2h0PwoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMg NDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYu b3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5k Lm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGll dGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 23:26:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2663A6BE3; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:26:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A5C3A6BAE for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:26:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.545 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.545 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fv2xjRAotlsR for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7CC28C157 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:26:44 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:26:43 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:26:41 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjCb86l6vRsciwpQgupBs8Mw6qTXwChM1JQABLhy+A= Message-ID: References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost> <002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost> <001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> In-Reply-To: <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Broome, Karen > The historic registrations of other tags (such as zh-yue and > zh-min-nan) clearly shows that "zh" has always included Cantonese and > other Asian languages... > It seems like you are indicating that "zh" is the shortest > tag for Mandarin, but not Cantonese... Do all keep in mind comments I made a week or two ago about historical development leading up to macrolanguage: - the macrolanguage concept means that some treat it as one language while some treat it as many - the alpha-2 code in ISO 639-1 was initially created by terminologists, for whom developed language varieties would have been of interest, which for "Chinese" would have been Mandarin - the alpha-3 code in ISO 639-2 was created (in part) by librarians, for whom "Chinese" was explicitly meant to cover both Mandarin and Cantonese The different points of view expressed by Karen and by Mark are, I think, not surprising or coincidental: the need to be clear that "zh" includes Cantonese as well as Mandarin is appropriate and is consistent with existing use exemplified by library practice; and the utility, in practice, of recognizing a particular association between "zh" and Mandarin in some applications (though not necessarily all) is also appropriate and stems from the same factors that were involved in the practice of Terminologists: for a lot of business application to date, the only Chinese language with particular relevance for text scenarios has been Mandarin. There are two realities; both need to be recognized. I see that happening by saying something to the effect of, "'zh' _means_ "Chinese"; in some applications, especially text scenarios, it may be appropriate to treat use of 'zh' in existing implementations as being particularly associated with Mandarin". Peter Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 00:18:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D784E3A6AEC; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 00:18:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77FF33A6AEC for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 00:18:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WZs7x42fsxcj for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 00:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.247]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41BF63A6A62 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 00:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d18so753557and.122 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:18:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=cy7tzAu+dEX1bUAO8RIIfGyBzljmzyvcyPuuyhl7bHA=; b=JIi6uqlfQOSN9aJ5RfC6sBmYCHwPJasG0cHneDb1BDxZp6COe7Xur7fdXbjiwtXH3B1whN0UyXG3PGe58VA0MIm9tsGq9oN3n99ZVvyrQyt83O8oFH5NM426TEG8N128TeVCBsMklE9uEQGRkcVmjnV8mQ055TADc90VVxP9yC8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Am35Axv1AQsGFqO3U+xWIlC9P/V4S5DMrkd1s9rxx0+KVF3JwNNFQQ5YR9k7wxnHUdu2OxgQvlUc63qp4xxKXWbP7u/t2Y3SwDYkda7sz/s/v3mIGxLchUv5W/KCpK0J/Z5ivfs0q+YQZgSn6bebQo/wn2fp56xZR+IFPBJwp6I= Received: by 10.100.249.10 with SMTP id w10mr16208092anh.156.1212477531961; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.46.6 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 00:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806030018q28274931p60210a3bc3f9ac8c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 00:18:51 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080602173110.GI13276@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F27FA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602173110.GI13276@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c373fd5883222cae Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1242943304==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1242943304== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_229_31849615.1212477531928" ------=_Part_229_31849615.1212477531928 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree in general with Addison, about not loading down the repository with information that can be found elsewhere (especially where that information may change over time). However, I agree with John that PrivateUse codes are special in terms of architecture of LTRU, are called out in the spec, and should be distinguished by more than just a Description. I'm not sure about whether the Collections should qualify, since I don't think we don't have any part of LTRU, either the spec or usage, that depends on whether a code is a Collection or not. Mark On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 10:31 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > > > This is all information direct from 639-3, so it's in our remit. > > > > Yes, but I still don't think we should mirror it. We would have to > > mirror the explanations for the values in the RFC, track changes to the > > values, and otherwise encumber ourselves with various maintenance and > > explanatory details. The less we do in the registry by fiat, the more > > flexible we will be. > > Fair enough. Well, we do talk about language collections in the draft, > and the private use codes are currently marked with a "Description:" > field only (plus having special magic syntax), so how about abandoning > ISO 639 type and having a minimalistic Scope field with "Collection" > and "Private use" field values? > > -- > Newbies always ask: John Cowan > "Elements or attributes? http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Which will serve me best?" cowan@ccil.org > Those who know roar like lions; > Wise hackers smile like tigers. --a tanka, or extended > haiku > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_229_31849615.1212477531928 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree in general with Addison, about not loading down the repository with information that can be found elsewhere (especially where that information may change over time).

However, I agree with John that PrivateUse codes are special in terms of architecture of LTRU, are called out in the spec, and should be distinguished by more than just a Description. I'm not sure about whether the Collections should qualify, since I don't think we don't have any part of LTRU, either the spec or usage, that depends on whether a code is a Collection or not.

Mark

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 10:31 AM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> > This is all information direct from 639-3, so it's in our remit.
>
> Yes, but I still don't think we should mirror it. We would have to
> mirror the explanations for the values in the RFC, track changes to the
> values, and otherwise encumber ourselves with various maintenance and
> explanatory details. The less we do in the registry by fiat, the more
> flexible we will be.

Fair enough.  Well, we do talk about language collections in the draft,
and the private use codes are currently marked with a "Description:"
field only (plus having special magic syntax), so how about abandoning
ISO 639 type and having a minimalistic Scope field with "Collection"
and "Private use" field values?

--
Newbies always ask:                             John Cowan
 "Elements or attributes?                      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Which will serve me best?"                      cowan@ccil.org
 Those who know roar like lions;
 Wise hackers smile like tigers.                   --a tanka, or extended haiku
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark
------=_Part_229_31849615.1212477531928-- --===============1242943304== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1242943304==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 05:14:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85BC3A6A83; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:14:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98383A6A83 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:14:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YfExH3xbz4hs for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [217.70.190.232]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCEA3A6AC5 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 5590731ED1; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:14:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by horcrux (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EE26F157AA1; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:11:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:11:46 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080603121146.GA9285@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <124253A074214A95813CE450D178917C@streamserve.com> <48430452.3010105@malform.no> <011801c8c4d0$745aab80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <484450F0.4050100@malform.no> <001501c8c4f7$eb92ece0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001501c8c4f7$eb92ece0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 8.04 (hardy) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Mailinglist issue X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 02:30:44PM -0700, Randy Presuhn wrote a message of 39 lines which said: > For such problems, which are entirely out of the hands of us list admins, > please refer to ietf-action@ietf.org. Include *COMPLETE* headers, Done, [rt.amsl.com #7755] "Content-type attributes dropped on the LTRU mailing list" > (2) DO NOT use format=flowed. In my experience, it doesn't work > well anyway. I strongly disagree. First, I've never seen such problems anywhere and, second, this is the only solution to have free-flow text in plain text. I do not want to use HTML, or to limit to the size of the old VT100 terminal. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 05:24:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380913A6A51; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:24:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33AE3A6A0F for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:24:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n3rcReGt5Hcs for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [217.70.190.232]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19FA53A6A51 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id BA497322A5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:14:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by horcrux (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DD3F4157AA1; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:09:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:09:49 +0200 From: 'Stephane Bortzmeyer' To: Debbie Garside Message-ID: <20080603120949.GA9145@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <137f01c8c4d8$5c5280f0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <137f01c8c4d8$5c5280f0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 8.04 (hardy) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 06:44:44PM +0100, Debbie Garside wrote a message of 101 lines which said: > The MA/RA is Library of Congress - same as ISO 639-2. Thanks for the info but their Web site still has zero information about ISO 639-5 except the FAQ which says that ISO 639-5 is still under development. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 06:37:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3F13A6A51; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:37:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCF13A6A0B for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:37:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.705 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.705 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.106, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F4mIPVTfUKI0 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B86C3A6B00 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3WgO-0002vX-4S; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 09:36:12 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:36:12 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080603133611.GA7610@mercury.ccil.org> References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F27FA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602173110.GI13276@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20806030018q28274931p60210a3bc3f9ac8c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806030018q28274931p60210a3bc3f9ac8c@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > However, I agree with John that PrivateUse codes are special in terms of > architecture of LTRU, are called out in the spec, and should be > distinguished by more than just a Description. I'm not sure about whether > the Collections should qualify, since I don't think we don't have any part > of LTRU, either the spec or usage, that depends on whether a code is a > Collection or not. See section 4.1, bullet point 4.1, in draft 14. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! `Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 06:58:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734FA28C17D; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:58:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9184B28C11D for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:58:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.546 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.546 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qffv9gEJQyve for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6F728C16E for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:56:14 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:56:14 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:56:12 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field Thread-Index: AcjFShfZ1pIjoSJMR5elNs4QqIHORAAN0y+Q Message-ID: References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F27FA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602173110.GI13276@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20806030018q28274931p60210a3bc3f9ac8c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806030018q28274931p60210a3bc3f9ac8c@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1478624604==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1478624604== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1478624604==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 06:58:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F318F3A6ABD; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:58:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810F43A68D5 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:58:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pKsqWnQsUdMC for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B853A69D6 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:58:11 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:58:11 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:58:09 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... Thread-Index: AcjFdL1E+GChQEmHSR65/WParNBJPwADPWRw Message-ID: References: <136701c8c4d4$580a4cc0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F280D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <137f01c8c4d8$5c5280f0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <20080603120949.GA9145@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> In-Reply-To: <20080603120949.GA9145@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639 language code addition rules... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > 'Stephane Bortzmeyer' > > The MA/RA is Library of Congress - same as ISO 639-2. > > Thanks for the info but their Web site still has zero information > about ISO 639-5 except the FAQ > which says that ISO > 639-5 is still under development. I can confirm that LOC has been designated as RA, the lack of info on their set as yet notwithstanding. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 07:11:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A263A6B00; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:11:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9EE3A69A4 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:11:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.048, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FzT1yoOqCXzo for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F403A6B3E for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:11:04 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:11:03 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:11:00 -0700 Thread-Topic: heads up: Estonian Thread-Index: AcjFg6aNCQ+XdE/DTkSskVxCL48kOw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: AJJN B6nq CJmZ CT3m DkUp Dvel D6ex E3Jw E7XB Fx+a Gzyw IFcw Ir7M KFgO KGle KKeq; 1; bAB0AHIAdQBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA=; Sosha1_v1; 7; {E3E3D4C2-6A5A-4A11-918B-C764F77A42B0}; cABlAHQAZQByAGMAbwBuAEAAbQBpAGMAcgBvAHMAbwBmAHQALgBjAG8AbQA=; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:11:00 GMT; aABlAGEAZABzACAAdQBwADoAIABFAHMAdABvAG4AaQBhAG4A x-cr-puzzleid: {E3E3D4C2-6A5A-4A11-918B-C764F77A42B0} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1117935233==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1117935233== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956333544A09NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956333544A09NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Given our current deliberations, it seems appropriate for me to give a head= s up that the JAC has been given a request to have a separate identifier fo= r the V=F5ro variety within Estonian, and that a likely way of handling thi= ngs, if it's decided to code that, would be to change the scope for et/est = from individual language to macrolanguage, with V=F5ro and at least one oth= er variety as encompassed languages. Peter --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956333544A09NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Given our current deliberations, it seems appropriate = for me to give a heads up that the JAC has been given a request to have a separate identifier for the V=F5ro variety within Estonian, and that a likely way of handling things, if it’s decided to code that, would be to change the scope for et/est from individual language to macrolanguage, with V=F5ro and= at least one other variety as encompassed languages.

 

 

Peter

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956333544A09NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============1117935233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1117935233==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 09:13:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F68C3A6868; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:13:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEAC73A68D7 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:13:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.765 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.765 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QwPTHLc2aO5u for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7F93A6868 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008149739.msg for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:22:59 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:22:59 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1040150f39=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:13:19 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Peter Constable'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:14:44 +0100 Message-ID: <144701c8c594$efcfe4f0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: thread-index: AcjFg6aNCQ+XdE/DTkSskVxCL48kOwAENC5g X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:22:59 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0183749552==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0183749552== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1448_01C8C59D.51944CF0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1448_01C8C59D.51944CF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unless the requester specifically requires an alpha3 why not wait for = 639-6? =20 Best regards =20 Debbie _____ =20 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Constable Sent: 03 June 2008 15:11 To: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian Given our current deliberations, it seems appropriate for me to give a = heads up that the JAC has been given a request to have a separate identifier = for the V=F5ro variety within Estonian, and that a likely way of handling = things, if it=92s decided to code that, would be to change the scope for et/est = from individual language to macrolanguage, with V=F5ro and at least one other variety as encompassed languages. =20 =20 Peter ------=_NextPart_000_1448_01C8C59D.51944CF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Unless the requester specifically requires an = alpha3 why=20 not wait for 639-6?
 
Best regards
 
Debbie

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter=20 Constable
Sent: 03 June 2008 15:11
To: 'LTRU = Working=20 Group'
Subject: [Ltru] heads up: = Estonian

Given our current deliberations, it seems = appropriate for=20 me to give a heads up that the JAC has been given a request to have a = separate=20 identifier for the V=F5ro variety within Estonian, and that a likely = way of=20 handling things, if it=92s decided to code that, would be to change = the scope=20 for et/est from individual language to macrolanguage, with V=F5ro and = at least=20 one other variety as encompassed languages.

 

 

Peter

------=_NextPart_000_1448_01C8C59D.51944CF0-- --===============0183749552== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0183749552==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 09:51:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C993328C1D5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1853A6B7A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id flQXS1XOhv-A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gv-out-0910.google.com (gv-out-0910.google.com [216.239.58.188]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E46443A67CC for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id e6so232250gvc.15 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 09:47:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=R3f4tqtrXGhoznefMKw04BBHhNPU8YcL4Ak9BLGBcEw=; b=GRLJnMRGakHXSQ2Q5iQnWmY8aAUQL1uwZeGTHk4cmtvxyY0bglY01HuAqP41HTg78l4b2YvEzGi0UZFAEborRSfZQl8BQCrY596/Do36oMBk/xY+GtvVIEEzokOtiDKDm4zqJuCxvBu128cV2YGDZy4mVpCl8t+fMfsRc+hMKT0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=sCYSw/m+G7iGy/hodm8XjbchGI8UIh3cFChvqMgjgqn8Z9XIvkJZJpldjRIkuZFTToG+QiXgbWfqP3aV22sgdtsQLfTM8ILoYioq1mYCNk/6Cc05D1iNZnYm3/FXndiWWUIxbW3PraLIGE3kwvcyB6oqkVzeuvE3C7w/KfaMNz0= Received: by 10.150.83.22 with SMTP id g22mr7083657ybb.140.1212511616487; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 09:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.206.3 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806030946r60653255g5eaf4983cbeabca9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:46:56 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080603133611.GA7610@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F27FA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080602173110.GI13276@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20806030018q28274931p60210a3bc3f9ac8c@mail.gmail.com> <20080603133611.GA7610@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: d99886c8cc4f2455 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0839098802==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0839098802== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2567_22102116.1212511616477" ------=_Part_2567_22102116.1212511616477 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Good point; I hadn't been looking at the latest draft. On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 6:36 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > However, I agree with John that PrivateUse codes are special in terms of > > architecture of LTRU, are called out in the spec, and should be > > distinguished by more than just a Description. I'm not sure about whether > > the Collections should qualify, since I don't think we don't have any > part > > of LTRU, either the spec or usage, that depends on whether a code is a > > Collection or not. > > See section 4.1, bullet point 4.1, in draft 14. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. > You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. > Clear all so! `Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) > -- Mark ------=_Part_2567_22102116.1212511616477 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Good point; I hadn't been looking at the latest draft.

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 6:36 AM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> However, I agree with John that PrivateUse codes are special in terms of
> architecture of LTRU, are called out in the spec, and should be
> distinguished by more than just a Description. I'm not sure about whether
> the Collections should qualify, since I don't think we don't have any part
> of LTRU, either the spec or usage, that depends on whether a code is a
> Collection or not.

See section 4.1, bullet point 4.1, in draft 14.

--
John Cowan       http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        <cowan@ccil.org>
       You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
       You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
               Clear all so!  `Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)



--
Mark ------=_Part_2567_22102116.1212511616477-- --===============0839098802== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0839098802==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 10:08:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DEC3A6988; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:08:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC923A6988 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:08:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.382 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.382 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D30+R7vceVEo for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1833A6889 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:36767 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1K3Zzv-0002vF-88; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:08:36 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'Peter Constable'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:08:30 +0200 Message-ID: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcjFg6aNCQ+XdE/DTkSskVxCL48kOwAFPKpA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1K3Zzv-0002vF-88. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1K3Zzv-0002vF-88 88873cb685c9996e76b23e78ce7b5aec Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2056884276==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2056884276== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010D_01C8C5AD.390A75A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C8C5AD.390A75A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Peter Constable wrote:=20 Given our current deliberations, it seems appropriate for me to give a = heads up that the JAC has been given a request to have a separate identifier for the V=F5ro variety within Estonian, and that a = likely way of handling things, if it=92s decided to code that, would be to change the scope for et/est from individual language to = macrolanguage, with V=F5ro and at least one other variety as encompassed languages. Personally, I don't think that would not be helpful to the users of = "standard" Estonian nor to the users of V=F5ro, nor to "us" or the users of LSR. =20 I think "doing a Frisian" (here clarify that est/et is closer to = "standard" Estonian than might have previously been thought, and just intro a new code for V=F5ro and maybe other new codes for other = langauges closely related to Estonian) would be the lesser evil here. =20 I note that we have no trouble whatsoever with Frisian languages, but no = end of trouble with Norwegian languages and Chinese languages, in large part due to the macrolanguage codes. I would guess = (I don't have a large (or even small) database on current use) that just about all content tagged as 'et' is in "standard" = Estonian, and next to none (or even none) is in V=F5ro. Though not formally a language tag, Wikipedia, for instance, uses fiu-vro (a = collection code augmented extlang style with a home-grown code for V=F5ro) as the language prefix for V=F5ro Wikipedia, not et-something. = Not that I think using a collection code that way is at all good (or even use macrolanguage codes that way), I'm just noting that they = DON'T use et-... . =20 /kent k =20 ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C8C5AD.390A75A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Peter Constable wrote: 

Given our current deliberations, it seems = appropriate for=20 me to give a heads up that the JAC has been given a request to have a = separate=20 identifier for the V=F5ro variety within Estonian, and that a likely = way of=20 handling things, if it=92s decided to code that, would be to change = the scope=20 for et/est from individual language to macrolanguage, with V=F5ro and = at least=20 one other variety as encompassed = languages.

Personally, I=20 don't think that would not be helpful to the users of "standard" = Estonian nor to=20 the users of V=F5ro, nor to "us" or the users of = LSR.

 

I think "doing a Frisian" (here clarify that = est/et is=20 closer to "standard" Estonian than might have previously been thought, = and just=20 intro a new code for V=F5ro and maybe other new codes for other = langauges closely=20 related to Estonian) would be the lesser evil here.

 

I note that we have no trouble whatsoever = with Frisian=20 languages, but no end of trouble with Norwegian languages and Chinese = languages,=20 in large part due to the macrolanguage codes. I would guess (I don't = have a=20 large (or even small) database on current use) that just about all = content=20 tagged as 'et' is in "standard" Estonian, and next to none (or even = none) is in=20 V=F5ro. Though not formally a language tag, Wikipedia, for instance, = uses fiu-vro=20 (a collection code augmented extlang style with a home-grown code for = V=F5ro) as=20 the language prefix for V=F5ro Wikipedia, not et-something. Not that I = think using=20 a collection code that way is at all good (or even use macrolanguage = codes that=20 way), I'm just noting that they DON'T use et-... .

 

    /kent k

 

------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C8C5AD.390A75A0-- --===============2056884276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2056884276==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 10:11:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BB03A6B01; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:11:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 407603A69F4 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:11:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.413 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.413 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.185, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8+SDB85FCrc for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6046A3A6B6C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33603 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1K3a2p-0008SM-3g for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:11:38 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81><4843AD0D.5000601@malform.no><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F251A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><20080602153649.GB13276@mercury.ccil.org><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F27FA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><20080602173110.GI13276@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20806030018q28274931p60210a3bc3f9ac8c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:32 +0200 Message-ID: <5306F1FA17CB4BE9AB092FC0D34E1A08@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806030018q28274931p60210a3bc3f9ac8c@mail.gmail.com> Thread-Index: AcjFShiJynlMv5xXSMyd/Ha3ZwXfKQADJYmw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1K3a2p-0008SM-3g. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1K3a2p-0008SM-3g 3cd65d5dcb47d6f2e956be3eb99603ea Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0263743244==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0263743244== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0117_01C8C5AD.A419FDC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0117_01C8C5AD.A419FDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark Davis wrote:=20 I agree in general with Addison, about not loading down the repository = with information that can be found elsewhere (especially where that = information may change over time).=20 However, I agree with John that PrivateUse codes are special in terms of = architecture of LTRU, are called out in the spec, and should be = distinguished by more than just a Description. I'm not sure about = whether the Collections should qualify, since I don't think we don't = have any part of LTRU, either the spec or usage, that depends on whether = a code is a Collection or not.=20 See the quoted text below that calls for special caution for using = "Collection" codes, and continues with cautioning against special codes. = I don't like relying on a particular word being present in the English = description field, but rather have that in a separate field for the = purpose. I'd be happy limiting this to just the values . And then to have = the following text refer to "individual language codes/subtags" rather = than "specific language subtags". "Specific" does not mean quite the = same as "individual", though here they apparently mean the same. This = would leave out info on in = the LSR, and that is ok I think, if there are too many objections. =20 B.t.w., I think the first reference should be to -3 and -5, not (just) = -2. =20 /kent k =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D = = [ISO639=E2=80=912] (International Organization for Standardization, = =E2=80=9CISO 639-2:1998. Codes for the representation of names of = languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code, first edition,=E2=80=9D 1998.) has = defined several codes included in the subtag registry that require = additional care when choosing language tags. In most of these cases, = where omitting the language tag is permitted, such omission is = preferable to using these codes. Language tags SHOULD NOT incorporate = these subtags as a prefix, unless the additional information conveys = some value to the application.=20 1. Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference to = subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a subtag = derived from one of the = = [ISO639=E2=80=915] (International Organization for Standardization, = =E2=80=9CISO 639-5:1998. Codes for the representation of names of = languages -- Part 5: Alpha-3 code for language families and = groups,=E2=80=9D May 2008.) codes that represents multiple related = languages. These codes are included as primary language subtags in the = registry. For example, the code 'cmc' represents "Chamic languages". The = registry contains values for each of the approximately ten individual = languages represented by this collective code. Some other examples = include the subtags Germanic languages ('gem') or Algonquian languages = ('alg'). Since these codes are interpreted inclusively, content tagged = with "en" (English), "de" (German), or "gsw" (Swiss German, Alemannic) = could also (but SHOULD NOT) be tagged with "gem" (Germanic languages). = Subtags derived from collection codes SHOULD NOT be used be used unless = more specific language information is not available. Note that matching = implementations generally do not understand the relationship between the = collection and its encompassed languages, and so users ought not assume = a subtag based on a language collection is a useful means for selecting = content in its encompassed languages.=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0117_01C8C5AD.A419FDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Mark Davis =20 wrote: 
I agree in general with Addison, about not loading down the = repository with information that can be found elsewhere (especially = where that=20 information may change over time).=20

However, I agree with John that PrivateUse codes are special in = terms of=20 architecture of LTRU, are called out in the spec, and should be = distinguished=20 by more than just a Description. I'm not sure about whether the = Collections=20 should qualify, since I don't think we don't have any part of LTRU, = either the=20 spec or usage, that depends on whether a code is a Collection or = not. 
See the quoted text below that calls for special caution for = using=20 "Collection" codes, and continues with cautioning against special codes. = I don't=20 like relying on a particular word being present in the English = description=20 field, but rather have that in a separate field for the purpose. I'd be = happy=20 limiting this to just the values <individual (default, not given = explicitly=20 in LSR), macrolanguage, collection, special, private use (call it = "local" if you=20 like)>. And then to have the following text refer to "individual = language=20 codes/subtags" rather than "specific language subtags". "Specific" does = not mean=20 quite the same as "individual", though here they apparently mean the = same. This=20 would leave out info on <living, constructed, historic, ancient, = ...> in=20 the LSR, and that is ok I think, if there are too many=20 objections.
 
B.t.w., I think the first reference should be to -3 and -5, not = (just)=20 -2.
 
        = /kent k
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
[ISO639=E2=80=912] (International=20 Organization for Standardization, =E2=80=9CISO 639-2:1998. Codes for the = representation=20 of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code, first edition,=E2=80=9D=20 1998.) has defined several codes = included in the subtag registry that require additional care when = choosing=20 language tags. In most of these cases, where omitting the language tag = is=20 permitted, such omission is preferable to using these codes. Language = tags=20 SHOULD NOT incorporate these subtags as a prefix, unless the additional=20 information conveys some value to the application.
  1. Use specific language subtags or subtag sequences in preference to = subtags=20 for language collections. A "language collection" is a subtag derived = from one=20 of the [ISO639=E2=80=915] (International=20 Organization for Standardization, =E2=80=9CISO 639-5:1998. Codes for = the=20 representation of names of languages -- Part 5: Alpha-3 code for = language=20 families and groups,=E2=80=9D = May 2008.)=20 codes that represents multiple related languages. These codes are = included as=20 primary language subtags in the registry. For example, the code 'cmc'=20 represents "Chamic languages". The registry contains values for each = of the=20 approximately ten individual languages represented by this collective = code.=20 Some other examples include the subtags Germanic languages ('gem') or=20 Algonquian languages ('alg'). Since these codes are interpreted = inclusively,=20 content tagged with "en" (English), "de" (German), or "gsw" (Swiss = German,=20 Alemannic) could also (but SHOULD NOT) be tagged with "gem" (Germanic=20 languages). Subtags derived from collection codes SHOULD NOT be used = be used=20 unless more specific language information is not available. Note that = matching=20 implementations generally do not understand the relationship between = the=20 collection and its encompassed languages, and so users ought not = assume a=20 subtag based on a language collection is a useful means for selecting = content=20 in its encompassed languages.=20
     
------=_NextPart_000_0117_01C8C5AD.A419FDC0-- --===============0263743244== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0263743244==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 11:20:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC74028C23E; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:20:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE8828C223 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:20:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.357 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.357 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.242, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hah2zbtB-D9Z for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F6A28C244 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m53IIKV7001843 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:18:23 +0200 Message-ID: <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:18:20 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> In-Reply-To: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Kent Karlsson 2008-06-03 19.08: > = > Peter Constable wrote: = > = > Given our current deliberations, it seems appropriate for me to give > a heads up that the JAC has been given a request to have a separate > identifier for the V=F5ro variety within Estonian, and that a likely > way of handling things, if it=92s decided to code that, would be to > change the scope for et/est from individual language to > macrolanguage, with V=F5ro and at least one other variety as > encompassed languages. I suppose "one other variety" =3D the dominant langauge? Then the = qeustion is: does the main language need another name than Estonian? = > Personally, I don't think that would not be helpful to the users of = > "standard" Estonian nor to the users of V=F5ro, nor to "us" or the users = > of LSR. > = > I think "doing a Frisian" (here clarify that est/et is closer to = > "standard" Estonian than might have previously been thought, and just = > intro a new code for V=F5ro and maybe other new codes for other langauges = > closely related to Estonian) would be the lesser evil here. If they have Macrolanguage situation, then I think should do a = Norwegian instead ;-) Or a Chinese. > I note that we have no trouble whatsoever with Frisian languages, but no = > end of trouble with Norwegian languages I can't really get my self to speak about "Norwegian languages", = in plural. Norwegian is both a individual language and a macrolanguage. Only from the perspective of written norm/literature language is = Norwegian two. > and Chinese languages, in large = > part due to the macrolanguage codes. I would guess (I don't have a large = > (or even small) database on current use) that just about all content = > tagged as 'et' is in "standard" Estonian, and next to none (or even = > none) is in V=F5ro. Though not formally a language tag, Wikipedia, for = > instance, uses fiu-vro (a collection code augmented extlang style with a = > home-grown code for V=F5ro) as the language prefix for V=F5ro Wikipedia, = not = > et-something. Not that I think using a collection code that way is at = > all good (or even use macrolanguage codes that way), I'm just noting = > that they DON'T use et-... = That would definitely be a good way to use extlang. I would like = it much better if Wikipedia used "no-bok" and "no-nyn", rather = than "nn" for Nynorsk and "no" for Bokm=E5l. But it defepends a little on those V=F5ro speakers. If they hate to = define their language as Estoninan etc. -- = leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 11:24:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9083A3A6875; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:24:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2922F3A6911 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:24:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.37 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.37 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.229, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mjL8DamZagzn for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BCAD3A6875 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:24:12 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=bUCSfxWBgpLUMDJKtMlT0pMwo7XbPgcdml/RLOoZc7rO89aK+4/pBuTwSfBw8yYL; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.89.73] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K3bB8-0004x6-UL for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:24:15 -0400 Message-ID: <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:24:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b3d77555a1e34af49f938d86f4fa9b1dd0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.89.73 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Broome, Karen" > To: "Mark Davis" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang ... > I think what bothers me more than extlang or no-extlang is the narrowing > I perceive in "zh" that seems to come with the no-extlang strategy. > The historic registrations of other tags (such as zh-yue and zh-min-nan) > clearly shows that "zh" has always included Cantonese and other Asian > languages. Yes, I know that a very overwhelming number of these documents > are in written Mandarin. But we have an overall rule that indicates the valid tag > is the shortest tag that represents the language. It seems like you are indicating > that "zh" is the shortest tag for Mandarin, but not Cantonese after RFC 4646bis. > How can this be true without there being a narrowing? I share this concern. It must be crystal clear that 'zh' does NOT mean Mandarin, but rather any kind of Chinese. Of course, there are cases where one might deliberately be imprecise in tagging, but we should not be so sloppy in our own definitions to equate the label for the superset with the subset, just as we must avoid falsely limiting 'de' to "Standard German" or 'ar' to "Standard Arabic". (I recognize that this concern is largely independent of the syntactic decision to use or not use extlang.) ... > I don't have a whole lot of insight into some of the other languages that use > extlang. I'm wondering if the users of those languages have similar issues > where there may be mutually intelligible written forms that are not mutually > intelligible when spoken (or vice versa). We need to recognize that there are cases where having an extlang might make sense, but none is available, so the extlang approach doesn't help. Some examples: - spoken Serbian and Croatian - Romanian and Moldovan. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 11:32:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A18A3A691C; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:32:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFECF3A691C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:32:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.684 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.684 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WLdNxujJDrGK for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AEC93A6930 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:32:09 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,585,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="318533616" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Jun 2008 18:32:11 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53IWAA7029834 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:32:11 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:32:10 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:32:08 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjFpwp4wSpHbMhdQra1AHSLp+0CBAAADMxw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > I share this concern. It must be crystal clear that 'zh' does NOT > mean Mandarin, > but rather any kind of Chinese. +1 > Of course, there are cases where > one might > deliberately be imprecise in tagging, but we should not be so It is always permissible to tag Mandarin as 'zh'. It is also permissible, within one's own application, to require that people who want something other than Mandarin to use a different tag than 'zh'. For example they can be required to use the tag (choose one: yue | zh-yue). What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's Cantonese content tagged as 'zh' as wrong. A corollary example might help: It is always permissible to tag US English as 'en'. It is also permissible, within one's own application, to require that people who want something other than US English to us a different tag from 'en'. For example, they can be required to use the tag 'en-GB'. What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's UK English content tagged as 'en' as wrong. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 11:43:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF593A698B; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:43:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F20F3A6911 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:43:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.431 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.431 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ayAbk6+GF0Ss for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VA3EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (outbound-va3.frontbridge.com [216.32.180.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705833A6A55 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail62-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.6) by VA3EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (10.7.40.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:43:01 +0000 Received: from mail62-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail62-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D808185864F for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:43:01 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-60(zz542N1432R7efV1442J103dKzzzz1033ILd6eMz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail62-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1212518581114079_29529; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:43:01 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (mail8.fw-bc.sony.com [160.33.98.75]) by mail62-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C0058004D for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:43:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53Ih0rS020066 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:43:00 GMT Received: from ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com (ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.77]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53Ih0Oe028335 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:43:00 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.74]) by ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.77]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:43:00 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:42:58 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjFpwp4wSpHbMhdQra1AHSLp+0CBAAADMxwAACO7fA= Message-ID: References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org If it wasn't already clear from my previous e-mail, I absolutely agree with this. (And Addison probably said it better than I did. Thanks!) Karen >-----Original Message----- >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >Of Phillips, Addison >Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:32 AM >To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang > >> >> I share this concern. It must be crystal clear that 'zh' does NOT >> mean Mandarin, >> but rather any kind of Chinese. > >+1 > >> Of course, there are cases where >> one might >> deliberately be imprecise in tagging, but we should not be so > >It is always permissible to tag Mandarin as 'zh'. It is also >permissible, within one's own application, to require that people >who want something other than Mandarin to use a different tag than >'zh'. For example they can be required to use the tag (choose one: >yue | zh-yue). > >What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's Cantonese >content tagged as 'zh' as wrong. > >A corollary example might help: > >It is always permissible to tag US English as 'en'. It is also >permissible, within one's own application, to require that people >who want something other than US English to us a different tag from >'en'. For example, they can be required to use the tag 'en-GB'. > >What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's UK English >content tagged as 'en' as wrong. > >Addison >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 11:57:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 034CB3A6A8E; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 899CF3A6A60 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:57:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PqzObC9ZcXKp for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D01A3A66B4 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:57:50 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=irXzvMurngxCOnRQ0e8Ak1AN5W8PmVcJd87L96it8Y4NYdvgjh8rDrgFZu7oHcDB; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.89.73] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K3bhg-0007EK-Oz for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:57:53 -0400 Message-ID: <00a801c8c5ab$cf0bddc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com><1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:58:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b3b1a128dab1539cc97edeb7413827a486350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.89.73 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:32 AM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang ... > A corollary example might help: > > It is always permissible to tag US English as 'en'. > It is also permissible, within one's own application, > to require that people who want something other than > US English to us a different tag from 'en'. > For example, they can be required to use the tag 'en-GB'. > > What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's > UK English content tagged as 'en' as wrong. ... It is also permissible, within one's own application, to tag UK English as 'en' and require US English to be tagged 'en-US'. But "permissible" doesn't mean "advisable". I would argue that if an application knows the difference and cares about the difference, that it would be much better to use both 'en-GB' and 'en-US', and reserve naked 'en' for the cases where there's no value in making the distinction (e.g., it can't tell or doesn't care). Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 12:26:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015693A6B99; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:26:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662CA3A6B7A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:26:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.232, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BqqMyUrJKuMN for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190453A6AE1 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m53JQDIi010219; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:26:13 +0200 Message-ID: <48459AD5.5000109@malform.no> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:26:13 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison 2008-06-03 20.32: >> I share this concern. It must be crystal clear that 'zh' >> does NOT mean Mandarin, but rather any kind of Chinese. > = > +1 > = >> Of course, there are cases where one might deliberately be >> imprecise in tagging, but we should not be so > = > It is always permissible to tag Mandarin as 'zh'. It is also I hear this a lot: =AB'zh' is for all Chinese. But it is permissible to use 'zh' for = Mandarin.=BB If you really want to emphasize that 'zh' is for all, then you = must start saing that it is permissible to use 'zh' for Cantonese = - because we allready know that it is allowed for Mandarine. > permissible, within one's own application, to require that > people who want something other than Mandarin to use a > different tag than 'zh'. For example they can be required to > use the tag (choose one: yue | zh-yue). Then it is also permissible to require Mandarin users to use 'cmn'. If we, as Doug said, "believe" in the macrolangauge thing, that it = describes a real thing, then we should emphasize that it is not at = all advicable to say that 'zh' means Cantonese or Mandarin in any = context. What we *should* say is that the Macrolanguage code should not be = locked to any particular variety. Application developers should = strive to keep it as a "free code" - a wild card that can be used = by any of the encompassed languages. By wild card I mean this: when I use Mac OS X with Nynorsk as = preferred langgae, then 'no' should lean towards meaning 'nn'. = That is: If a text editor is tagged as having 'no' interface, = then, even if this in reality means that it is Bokm=E5l, still, for = deciding which spell checking dictionary to use as default (often = this is synced with the GUI langauge), the application should = default to 'nn'/Nynorsk. But if I run Mac OS X with Bokm=E5l as = preferred langauge, then 'no' should default to be interpreted as = an alias for 'nb' - thus bokm=E5l dictionaries should be picked. The users will then have to accept that they cannot expect to have = full control over the interface language of applications tagged as = 'no'. And this is not difficult. Users accept this easily. As long = as you do not use 'no' but translate it in the user interface as = 'Nynorsk' or 'Bokm=E5l'. Same for zh/Chinese, if it in some language = is translated as 'Mandarin', then you will get user reactions if = you use it for any thing else but Mandarin. Hence, such use should = be avoided. > What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's Cantonese > content tagged as 'zh' as wrong. > = > A corollary example might help: > = > It is always permissible to tag US English as 'en'. It is also > permissible, within one's own application, to require that > people who want something other than US English to us a > different tag from 'en'. For example, they can be required to > use the tag 'en-GB'. > = > What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's UK English > content tagged as 'en' as wrong. Let me reuse your example: In Mac OS X I can select UK English as preferred language. = Unless 'en_UK' localisations are available, then the 'en' tagged = localisations with 'en-US' content will be served. However, there = will be one important difference: UK dictioanaries will be = preferred over US ones. And and certain other things will shift to = its British values. Just like the "color" of the "en" tag shifts based on whether the = user prefers en-US, en-UK, en-Ca etc, the same way the = Macrolanguage tag should shift according to which variety of the = Chinese/Norwegian/Arabic language one is preferring. Btw, since I have been critical about Apple, I think they do the = right thing when they use 'en' for US English *while still* = translating its meaning as "English" and not as "US English". It = is *this* which is permissible. And if this is what you mean, = Addision, then I agree with you. But if you mean that one can use = "en" but put a "US English" on it as a label, then I disagree. -- = leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 12:37:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7023A6956; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:37:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6C83A67C1 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:37:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.163, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xBIVvuprwDVJ for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D692A3A6956 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33228 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1K3cKA-00025o-6A for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:37:39 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com><1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com><008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:37:34 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Thread-Index: AcjFpwp4wSpHbMhdQra1AHSLp+0CBAAADMxwAAGIwbA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1K3cKA-00025o-6A. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1K3cKA-00025o-6A 2267a051fe50a136a5081b97dc6d1b56 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison wrote: > It is always permissible to tag Mandarin as 'zh'. It is also > permissible, within one's own application, to require that > people who want something other than Mandarin to use a > different tag than 'zh'. For example they can be required to > use the tag (choose one: yue | zh-yue). > > What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's > Cantonese content tagged as 'zh' as wrong. > > A corollary example might help: > > It is always permissible to tag US English as 'en'. It is > also permissible, within one's own application, to require > that people who want something other than US English to us a > different tag from 'en'. For example, they can be required to > use the tag 'en-GB'. > > What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's UK > English content tagged as 'en' as wrong. You're comparing an apple/pear situation with a peach/nectarine situation, if you allow me the analogy. There are differences between ("standard") en-US and ("standard") en-GB, sure. But it is (most often) VERY small compared to differences between languages covered by a macrolanguage code. The latter varies in degree of difference, but for zh, someone (who I think knows this) compared cmn/yue differences as en par with fr/es differences, in addition pointing out that the difference was greater than between Scandinavian languages. I'm sure you would not want a macrolanguage code for fr/es, even if there was a way to get that (like way back when...), nor recommend using a collection code for Gallo-Iberian for language tagging. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 12:43:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4B93A6AFB; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:43:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36E63A6A74 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:43:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w-aeH2c4LV45 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3183A6AFB for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:43:50 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,585,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="318567836" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Jun 2008 19:43:51 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53Jhob2007158 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:43:51 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:43:50 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:43:49 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjFq8TnOD6Qbx+PTcSu7qylO+yyuQAA99CQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBE36@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com><1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <00a801c8c5ab$cf0bddc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00a801c8c5ab$cf0bddc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > It is also permissible, within one's own application, > to tag UK English as 'en' and require US English to be > tagged 'en-US'. But "permissible" doesn't mean "advisable". > I would argue that if an application knows the difference > and cares about the difference, that it would be much better > to use both 'en-GB' and 'en-US', and reserve naked 'en' for > the cases where there's no value in making the distinction > (e.g., it can't tell or doesn't care). > I don't disagree. However... The classic software fallback problem (sorry Karen) is that when someone requests "en-AQ" and you don't have any Antarctic English resources, one falls back on some content, which is typically labeled (in software resources) 'en'. This 'en' content can be one variety or another, but not both. In English this isn't always a problem. The foregoing sentence, for example, is good as both "en-US" and "en-GB". Things are less good when there are disparities and no generic choice exists. Some years ago I work on a project that including localization of a product into Simplified Chinese--but only Simplified, not Traditional. That product also sold in Traditional Chinese speaking markets. Installing 'zh' labeled resources mean that ALL Chinese-locale configured systems might have displayed Simplified Chinese, so I had to implement certain checks to ensure that Traditional Chinese markets didn't see the Simplified (they saw the default resources instead). Yes, the resources could have be labeled more specifically than 'zh'. But then I would run the risk of having a user with an unfamiliar locale configuration not seeing the Chinese resources they paid for. So the "permissible" and "advisable" bar may be set at different heights under different circumstances. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 12:53:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4D83A6A77; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:53:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4FC13A6A77 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:53:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.455 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.455 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.145, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rRX4FeOtTWcd for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CF13A68D6 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33626 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1K3cZO-0003wd-6F for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:53:23 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:53:22 +0200 Message-ID: <5728EACBCAA0468CB77B7AA24593E0E5@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> Thread-Index: AcjCb86l6vRsciwpQgupBs8Mw6qTXwChM1JQAC9+YqA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1K3cZO-0003wd-6F. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1K3cZO-0003wd-6F bfe012f8cd8bb0a017a80dd3d4d9e0cb Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Broome, Karen wrote: > We have promised backwards compatibility, Backwards compatibility w.r.t. zh- is provided by that the grandfathered tags are kept in LSR, even if deprecated with another preferred value. So I consider this a non-argument. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 12:54:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930813A6B7E; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:54:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7045E3A6B9D for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:54:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.130, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yzZvbOBB24Hj for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998C33A6A77 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33502 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1K3caM-0007Uc-4k for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:54:22 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:54:16 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> Thread-Index: AcjFpsuIymT690QgR7qNyxmWPJuulQACrJeA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1K3caM-0007Uc-4k. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1K3caM-0007Uc-4k 64ed0185fbd465104acf9503fadbf54f Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Leif Halvard Silli wrote: > If they have Macrolanguage situation, They don't, almost by definition. See Peter's explanation of why the notion of "macrolanguage" was invented. It had to do with matching -2 codes with -3 codes. So far V=F5ro has not had a language code, so there is no such matching issue. > then I think should do a Norwegian instead ;-) Or a Chinese. Why would you want to foist such a language tagging disaster upon the users of Estonian and V=F5ro? Look at the trouble "we" are having with macrolanguages. "End users" would surely not be less confused. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 12:57:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E599A3A69D1; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:57:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BE03A6941 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:57:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.676 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.676 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MNTVycHgiQSk for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA403A6BB5 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Jun 2008 19:55:22 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53JtJN9014842 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:55:19 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:55:19 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Kent Karlsson , "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:55:18 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjFpwp4wSpHbMhdQra1AHSLp+0CBAAADMxwAAGIwbAAATGl8A== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBE64@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com><1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com><008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > > It is always permissible to tag US English as 'en'. It is > > also permissible, within one's own application, to require > > that people who want something other than US English to us a > > different tag from 'en'. For example, they can be required to > > use the tag 'en-GB'. > > > > What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's UK > > English content tagged as 'en' as wrong. > > > You're comparing an apple/pear situation with a peach/nectarine > situation, if you allow me the analogy. There are differences > between ("standard") en-US and ("standard") en-GB, sure. But > it is (most often) VERY small compared to differences between > languages covered by a macrolanguage code. Yes. Actually, see my just-posted message. I know this is the case, but I was attempting to draw an illustrative analogy without getting carried away. > The latter varies > in degree of difference, but for zh, someone (who I think knows > this) compared cmn/yue differences as en par with fr/es > differences, in addition pointing out that the difference was > greater than between Scandinavian languages. There are many flavors of difference. How well-received those differences are depends on the specific case. In the 'en' case, one might be satisfied pretty well with the US English information, regardless of which flavo(u)r one prefers. In the 'zh' case, perhaps this is less the case. It doesn't invalidate the problem. (laughing) For example, when I typed the above paragraph, my spell checker "fixed" 'flavour' to 'flavor' automagically. I had to fix it to make it stick (before deciding to include the parens). If I had requested UK English, I might have been peeved at that. > > I'm sure you would not want a macrolanguage code for fr/es, > even if there was a way to get that (like way back when...), > nor recommend using a collection code for Gallo-Iberian > for language tagging. > No, but, again, that's not my point. My point is that one can use less-specific tags consciously and deliberately to create a specific effect. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 13:11:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7C73A6BFE; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:11:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611A63A6BD2 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:11:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.149, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_28=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id edyDDbdN4N80 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VA3EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (outbound-va3.frontbridge.com [216.32.180.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE1D3A6AC4 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail97-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.6) by VA3EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (10.7.40.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:11:03 +0000 Received: from mail97-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail97-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B0E40229; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:11:03 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-70(zz542N1432R98dR7efV1805Mzzzz1033ILd6eMz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail97-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1212523862824949_11121; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:11:02 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (mail8.fw-sd.sony.com [160.33.66.75]) by mail97-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C1A1AC005A; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:11:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53KB2cV001014; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:11:02 GMT Received: from ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com (ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.77]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53KB1mC027233; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:11:01 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.74]) by ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.77]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:10:40 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: Kent Karlsson , "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:10:39 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjCb86l6vRsciwpQgupBs8Mw6qTXwChM1JQAC9+YqAAAKAxYA== Message-ID: References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <5728EACBCAA0468CB77B7AA24593E0E5@streamserve.com> In-Reply-To: <5728EACBCAA0468CB77B7AA24593E0E5@streamserve.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org What about the backwards compatibility of just "zh" used for Cantonese or Taiwanese? Sure, it will be valid, but if companies develop algorithms assuming that zh=Mandarin because we've advised them that this is a best practice even if that's not exactly what ISO says, that's not so backward compatible. And "zh-yue" becomes a contradiction in terms. Karen >-----Original Message----- >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >Of Kent Karlsson >Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 12:53 PM >To: 'LTRU Working Group' >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang > >Broome, Karen wrote: > >> We have promised backwards compatibility, > >Backwards compatibility w.r.t. zh- is provided by >that the grandfathered tags are kept in LSR, even if deprecated >with another preferred value. So I consider this a non-argument. > > /kent k > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 13:20:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E544728C20C; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABF23A69EA for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.224, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gD4-c0YbtuHY for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF333A6C2B for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m53KGg1F016485 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:16:43 +0200 Message-ID: <4845A6AA.1080208@malform.no> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:16:42 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com><1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <00a801c8c5ab$cf0bddc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00a801c8c5ab$cf0bddc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn 2008-06-03 20.58: > As a technical contributor... > = >> From: "Phillips, Addison" >> To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group"= >> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:32 AM >> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang > ... >> A corollary example might help: >> = >> It is always permissible to tag US English as 'en'. >> It is also permissible, within one's own application, >> to require that people who want something other than >> US English to us a different tag from 'en'. >> For example, they can be required to use the tag 'en-GB'. >> = >> What is not permissible is to dismiss someone else's >> UK English content tagged as 'en' as wrong. > ... > = > It is also permissible, within one's own application, > to tag UK English as 'en' and require US English to be > tagged 'en-US'. But "permissible" doesn't mean "advisable". Agree. > I would argue that if an application knows the difference > and cares about the difference, that it would be much better > to use both 'en-GB' and 'en-US', and reserve naked 'en' for > the cases where there's no value in making the distinction > (e.g., it can't tell or doesn't care). Almost agree. But I do not think that the en/en-US/en-UK example = covers the Macrolanguage situation 100%. Where I agree with you is that the 'en' should be used "for the = cases where there's no value in making the disctinction". = However, when a system is offered only in one variant of English, = then were is the value in making any distinction? I think this is a parallell to macrolanguages. If you only plan on = supporting the macrolanguage - whichever encompassed language you = pick to represent it - there is little value in saying "Mandarin" = or "Bokm=E5l". Just say "Chinese" and "Norwegian". Then, when the OS vendor switches to support more of the = encompassed varieties -- and if translations for the new, = encompassed languages are not immmediately available for all of = the languages -- then the macrolanguage code could be used as a = tag for applications which only exist in the dominant language, = thus (hopefully) making them available for all the encompassed = langauges. (For example, for Norwegian Mac OS X, Apple could have offered the = basic OS X GUI in 'nn' tagged Nynorsk and 'nb' tagged Bokm=E5l. Two = NOrwegian GUIs for the two usergroups. At the same time, they = could have kept their old base of 'no' tagged Bokm=E5l applications = in order to make them available for both Nynorsk and Bokm=E5l users.) So, where I differ from many of you -- it seems -- is that I see = a **permanent** value in the Macrolanguage tag. -- = leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 13:26:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116ED3A6C2B; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:26:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB243A6C2C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:26:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.737 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.737 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.430, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tsQEESvq9KYs for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD3528C1E9 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m53KMDOG017056 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:22:14 +0200 Message-ID: <4845A7F5.3030103@malform.no> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:22:13 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: LTRU Working Group References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com><1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <00a801c8c5ab$cf0bddc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBE36@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBE36@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison 2008-06-03 21.43: >> It is also permissible, within one's own application, to tag >> UK English as 'en' and require US English to be tagged >> 'en-US'. But "permissible" doesn't mean "advisable". I would >> argue that if an application knows the difference and cares >> about the difference, that it would be much better to use >> both 'en-GB' and 'en-US', and reserve naked 'en' for the >> cases where there's no value in making the distinction (e.g., >> it can't tell or doesn't care). >> > > I don't disagree. However... [...] > Yes, the resources could have be labeled more specifically than > 'zh'. But then I would run the risk of having a user with an > unfamiliar locale configuration not seeing the Chinese > resources they paid for. [...] A well known issue ... -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 13:31:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE553A6A23; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:31:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A727C3A68B7 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:31:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.368 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.368 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.231, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1PG+eHBDpiPh for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052CA3A6A23 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m53KUc46018078 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:30:38 +0200 Message-ID: <4845A9EE.2010501@malform.no> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:30:38 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Kent Karlsson 2008-06-03 21.54: > Leif Halvard Silli wrote: > = >> If they have Macrolanguage situation, > = > They don't, almost by definition. See Peter's explanation > of why the notion of "macrolanguage" was invented. It had to > do with matching -2 codes with -3 codes. So far V=F5ro has > not had a language code, so there is no such matching issue. I don't know how to literally I should take that - or Peter's claim. But even if I should take it very literally, that it is all only a = "coding accident", then we should not fool ourselves into = believing that that the accident happened because of sloppy ISO = specifications. The "trouble" is rooted in language reality, no = matter what. It is not because of ISO that both Nynorsk and Bokm=E5l = users say that they have Norwegian as mothertongue. >> then I think should do a Norwegian instead ;-) Or a Chinese. > = > Why would you want to foist such a language tagging disaster > upon the users of Estonian and V=F5ro? Look at the trouble "we" > are having with macrolanguages. "End users" would surely not > be less confused. I do absoultely want 3 tags for Norwegian. But I have been = assuming that it would simpler to use correctly under an extlang = solution. And I still think that this would be simpler for users = to get. I read that there were 70.000 Voro speakers. I do not think that = this little group wants that their "language striving" only = results in a big "default to English" each time they cannot have = Voro content/applications/searchresults. -- = leif halvard sillli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 15:54:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D373A676A; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:54:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A125C3A677C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:53:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IWyN0iwkokq2 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBFF3A6765 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3fOB-0004wF-E2; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:53:59 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:53:59 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080603225359.GC26904@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2EB0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2EB0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] early proto draft-15... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > The diffs are: > > http://tinyurl.com/3whwwg (hwdiff) This doesn't work yet, because you haven't submitted -15 yet. > Comments welcome. 2.1: s/the US-ASCII repertoire/the relevant part of the US-ASCII repertoire/. A long-standing bug. 2.2.2: s/identify languages/identify certain languages/. 2.2.4, bullet 3E: refers to 4645 rather than 4645 and 4645bis. 2.2.5: need to explain here that "Prefix" is not to be taken literally: it contains subtags that must appear before the given variant. This is explained elsewhere, but needs to be here. 2.2.9: The line "Language tags may be well-formed in terms of syntax but not valid in terms of content" should be moved to the start of the 2nd graf. 2.2.9: The next-to-last graf's sentences are in the wrong order: Users MUST NOT assign and use their own subtags, other than in private-use sequences (such as "en-x-personal"). Not only is such assignment nonconformatn, it also risks collision with a possible future assignment. However, private-use ISO subtags may be used instead of private-use sequences. 3.1.1: in "encoding, unless otherwise indicated, fields" it is not clear which phrase the "unless otherwise indicated" relates to. Move it to the end of the sentence. 3.1.4: s/corresponds to the Reference Name/corresponds whenever possible to the Reference Name/. Collective language codes don't have an ISO 639-3 Reference Name, so this guarantee never worked anyhow. 3.1.6: Bullet points 1 and 2 look fundamentally the same. In bullet point 3, s/encoded/encoded by an ISO standard/. 3.4, bullet point 11.2: s/MUST in a/MUST contain a/. 3.6: s/ISO defines a for additions to/ISO defines a registration authority for additions to/. 4.1.1: examples at the end need updating. 4.1.2: this whole section needs updating. 4.3: example about "both zh and nan" no longer fits. I didn't review 4.4 or later sections, but I checked the diffs and didn't see any issues. Appendix B needs updating to show some extlangs used both with and without lower-level subtags. -- There are three kinds of people in the world: John Cowan those who can count, cowan@ccil.org and those who can't. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 15:56:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E1C3A67B6; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:56:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029BA3A676A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:56:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.673 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.673 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.074, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JhH+2d5ie4ZS for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E443A6A38 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,585,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="318615218" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Jun 2008 22:56:33 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53MuX30031456 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:56:33 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:56:33 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:56:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] early proto draft-15... Thread-Index: AcjFzLldNjH/9gOHTAGAZgMhRBoZugAACgMA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABC1C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2EB0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080603225359.GC26904@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080603225359.GC26904@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] early proto draft-15... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > > The diffs are: > > http://tinyurl.com/3whwwg (hwdiff) > > This doesn't work yet, because you haven't submitted -15 yet. Sure it works: both documents are pulled from the Inter-Locale server copy. Perhaps you tried when my server was down or something? I'll reply to the content comments under separate cover. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 16:24:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F413A6AA4; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:24:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFE33A6A5C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:24:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c5mSC3PMyRWz for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111183A6956 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3fnl-00083B-TM; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:20:25 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:20:25 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080603232025.GD26904@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2EB0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080603225359.GC26904@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABC1C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABC1C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] early proto draft-15... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > This doesn't work yet, because you haven't submitted -15 yet. > > Sure it works: both documents are pulled from the Inter-Locale server > copy. Perhaps you tried when my server was down or something? Huh. It works now. Before I was getting all the words in -14 crossed out, as if -15 was empty. -- There are three kinds of people in the world: John Cowan those who can count, cowan@ccil.org and those who can't. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 16:27:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A2D13A6848; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:27:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBE03A66B4 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:27:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7o7ocBpanfra for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FE13A6956 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:25:44 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,630,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="47958017" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Jun 2008 23:25:39 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53NPcBF014566 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:25:38 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:25:38 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:25:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] early proto draft-15... Thread-Index: AcjFzLldNjH/9gOHTAGAZgMhRBoZugAAKe2A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABC263@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A9F2EB0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080603225359.GC26904@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080603225359.GC26904@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] early proto draft-15... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat on) Note that changes noted below are not posted at this time. > > 2.1: s/the US-ASCII repertoire/the relevant part of the US-ASCII > repertoire/. A long-standing bug. DONE. > > 2.2.2: s/identify languages/identify certain languages/. DONE. > > 2.2.4, bullet 3E: refers to 4645 rather than 4645 and 4645bis. NOT DONE (pending information) Maybe. Will 4645bis repeat the relevant text? My impression was that 4645 has the Date A/Date B/etc. stuff and 4645bis has newer rules for registry restart. Doug? > > 2.2.5: need to explain here that "Prefix" is not to be taken > literally: > it contains subtags that must appear before the given variant. > This is > explained elsewhere, but needs to be here. DONE. > > 2.2.9: The line "Language tags may be well-formed in terms of > syntax > but not valid in terms of content" should be moved to the start of > the > 2nd graf. DONE, but I moved it after the first sentence in the second para. That way the definition of well-formed occurs and then the explication that well-formed is not everything. > > 2.2.9: The next-to-last graf's sentences are in the wrong order: > > Users MUST NOT assign and use their own subtags, other than > in > private-use sequences (such as "en-x-personal"). Not only > is > such assignment nonconformatn, it also risks collision with > a > possible future assignment. However, private-use ISO > subtags > may be used instead of private-use sequences. DONE. A substantial rewrite was needed here: Subtags designated for private use or private-use sequences introduced by the 'x' subtag are available for cases in which no assigned subtags are available and registration is not a suitable option. For example, one might use a tag such as "no-QQ", where 'QQ' is one of a range of private-use ISO 3166-1 codes to indicate an otherwise-undefined region. Users MUST NOT assign and use subtags that do not appear in the registry other than in private-use sequences (such the subtag 'personal' in the tag "en-x-personal"). Not only is such assignment nonconformant, it also risks collision with a future possible assignment or registration. > > 3.1.1: in "encoding, unless otherwise indicated, fields" it is not > clear > which phrase the "unless otherwise indicated" relates to. Move it > to > the end of the sentence. DONE: Although the file format uses the UTF-8 encoding fields are restricted to the printable characters from the US-ASCII repertoire unless otherwise indicated in the specific field description below. > > 3.1.4: s/corresponds to the Reference Name/corresponds whenever > possible > to the Reference Name/. Collective language codes don't have an > ISO > 639-3 Reference Name, so this guarantee never worked anyhow. DONE. > > 3.1.6: Bullet points 1 and 2 look fundamentally the same. In > bullet > point 3, s/encoded/encoded by an ISO standard/. The second one should say " Subtags (other than language codes) taken from codes or values that have been withdrawn in favor of a new code." > > 3.4, bullet point 11.2: s/MUST in a/MUST contain a/. (groan) DONE > > 3.6: s/ISO defines a for additions to/ISO defines a registration > authority for additions to/. DONE. > > 4.1.1: examples at the end need updating. Not done yet. > > 4.1.2: this whole section needs updating. Agreed. Not done yet. > > 4.3: example about "both zh and nan" no longer fits. DONE. Used 'no'/'nn' are a replacement. > > I didn't review 4.4 or later sections, but I checked the diffs and > didn't > see any issues. Appendix B needs updating to show some extlangs > used > both with and without lower-level subtags. > Agreed. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 18:01:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B4A3A6A63; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:01:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D763A6A3A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:01:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.135, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qZc+QNAiOEFj for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 945713A69F4 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15275 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2008 01:01:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.44) with ESMTP; 04 Jun 2008 01:01:30 -0000 Message-ID: <000e01c8c5de$85a6eca0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:01:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IEl0IG11c3QgYmUgY3J5c3RhbCBjbGVhciB0aGF0ICd6aCcgZG9lcyBO T1QgbWVhbiBNYW5kYXJpbiwgYnV0IHJhdGhlciAKPiBhbnkga2luZCBvZiBDaGluZXNlLiAgT2Yg Y291cnNlLCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgY2FzZXMgd2hlcmUgb25lIG1pZ2h0IAo+IGRlbGliZXJhdGVseSBi ZSBpbXByZWNpc2UgaW4gdGFnZ2luZywgYnV0IHdlIHNob3VsZCBub3QgYmUgc28gc2xvcHB5IAo+ IGluIG91ciBvd24gZGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgdG8gZXF1YXRlIHRoZSBsYWJlbCBmb3IgdGhlIHN1cGVy c2V0IHdpdGggdGhlIAo+IHN1YnNldCwganVzdCBhcyB3ZSBtdXN0IGF2b2lkIGZhbHNlbHkgbGlt aXRpbmcgJ2RlJyB0byAiU3RhbmRhcmQgCj4gR2VybWFuIiBvciAnYXInIHRvICJTdGFuZGFyZCBB cmFiaWMiLgoKV2Ugc2hvdWxkIGRlY2lkZSB3aGV0aGVyIHRoaXMgaXMgdGhlIGdlbmVyYWwgc2Vu c2Ugb2YgdGhlIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAsIApvciBpZiBpdCdzIG1vcmUgYWxvbmcgdGhlIGxpbmVz IG9mICJUYWdnaW5nIG5vbi1NYW5kYXJpbiBDaGluZXNlIHdpdGggCid6aCcgaXMgY29tcGFyYWJs ZSB0byB3YWxraW5nIHRocm91Z2ggZGFuZ2Vyb3VzIG5laWdoYm9yaG9vZHMgaW4gdGhlIAptaWRk bGUgb2YgdGhlIG5pZ2h0LCBibGluZGZvbGRlZCwgd2l0aCAkMTAwIGJpbGxzIHBpbm5lZCB0byBv bmUncyBib2R5LiIKCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAg UkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5p ZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0 cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRy dUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 18:18:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 834823A6A3A; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:18:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F743A6A3A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:18:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.131, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e+xSi8F6-F9T for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout06.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout06-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 87BBD3A69E3 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15152 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2008 01:18:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout06-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.227) with ESMTP; 04 Jun 2008 01:18:34 -0000 Message-ID: <001601c8c5e0$e7f294c0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:18:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] early proto draft-15... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ PiAyLjIuNCwgYnVsbGV0IDNFOiByZWZlcnMgdG8gNDY0NSByYXRoZXIgdGhhbiA0NjQ1IGFuZCA0 NjQ1YmlzLgo+Cj4gTk9UIERPTkUgKHBlbmRpbmcgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24pCj4KPiBNYXliZS4gV2ls bCA0NjQ1YmlzIHJlcGVhdCB0aGUgcmVsZXZhbnQgdGV4dD8gTXkgaW1wcmVzc2lvbiB3YXMgdGhh dCAKPiA0NjQ1IGhhcyB0aGUgRGF0ZSBBL0RhdGUgQi9ldGMuIHN0dWZmIGFuZCA0NjQ1YmlzIGhh cyBuZXdlciBydWxlcyBmb3IgCj4gcmVnaXN0cnkgcmVzdGFydC4gRG91Zz8KClRvIHRoZSBleHRl bnQgdGhpcyBidWxsZXQgcG9pbnQgaXMgc3RpbGwgcmVsZXZhbnQgKGl0IGFwcGxpZXMgb25seSB0 byAKQ2hhbm5lbCBJc2xhbmRzLCBVTiBNLjQ5IGNvZGUgODMwKSwgaXQgaXMgaW5jbHVkZWQgb25s eSBpbiA0NjQ1LiAKRHJhZnQtNDY0NWJpcyBzdGFydHMgZnJvbSB0aGUgZXhpc3RpbmcgUmVnaXN0 cnksIGFuZCBhZGRzIGluIDYzOS0zIGFuZCAKYWxsIHRoZSBvdGhlciBjaGFuZ2VzIHdlJ3ZlIG1h ZGUuCgpJdCBkb2Vzbid0IHlldCBpbmNsdWRlIDYzOS01LCBvbiB3aGljaCB3ZSBzZWVtIHRvIGhh dmUgYW4gdW5kZWNsYXJlZCAKY29uc2Vuc3VzLCBidXQgdGhhdCdzIGJlY2F1c2UgSSdtIHdhaXRp bmcgZm9yIHRoZSBleHRsYW5nL21hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UgCmlzc3VlIHRvIGJlIHJlc29sdmVkIC0t IHVubGVzcyB0aGUgV0cgd2FudHMgYSBuZXcgZHJhZnQgYmVmb3JlIHRoZW4sIGluIAp3aGljaCBj YXNlIEknbGwgYXBwbHkgdGhlIGRyYWZ0LTQ2NDZiaXMtMTUgcnVsZXMuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxs ICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6 Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1 LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9p ZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 18:22:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DF83A6A17; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:22:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C62A3A6A17 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:22:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b10yDD+LDqIJ for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BA53A6A05 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:22:20 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:22:20 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:22:19 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian Thread-Index: AcjFpsuIymT690QgR7qNyxmWPJuulQACrJeAAAtppUA= Message-ID: References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Kent Karlsson > > If they have Macrolanguage situation, > > They don't, almost by definition. See Peter's explanation > of why the notion of "macrolanguage" was invented. It had to > do with matching -2 codes with -3 codes. So far V=F5ro has > not had a language code, so there is no such matching issue. I don't quite follow this. The origins of the macrolanguage notion arose in= figuring out how to map items in 639-2 with the candidates for 639-3, but = the definition of macrolanguage doesn't reference that. If et/est was only used for Standard Estonian, then it might be possible to= say that V=F5ro is simply something new. On the other hand, if there is ex= isting usage of et/est for V=F5ro, and if V=F5ro and Std Estonian are consi= dered distinct languages, then it would be the case that et/est is used (at= least in some contexts) for distinct languages -- making it either a colle= ction or macrolanguage. If there are some contexts in which et/est is consi= dered to be a single language, then those options are reduced to macrolangu= age. There are a bunch of "if"s in there. Your suggestion earlier is that we not= consider et/est as encompassing V=F5ro. There are, however, known instance= s of just that, however. At some point, we face a dilemma: either - we intentionally narrow denotations to ensure stability and freedom from = problems for the majority language; or - we deprecate the existing category and create new categories for the spli= t, giving us a set of categories free of the macrolanguage problems and sta= bility in the denotation of existing IDs, but a situation in which a deprec= ated category is what many applications continue to use and consider prefer= red, and in which there's no formal connection between the old ID and the n= ew ones; or - we re-scope the existing ID as macrolanguage and add new IDs for encompas= sed languages, ensuring stability in denotation of the existing ID but taki= ng on potential issues that come with macrolanguages (we probably are hopin= g that the macrolanguage can continue to be used as in the past, with most = actual usage being specifically for the predominant language, the rest not = being of significance for most of our applications); or - we push back on requests to encode the encompassed varieties, possibly ig= noring legitimate cases with valid needs. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 18:26:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58EAA3A695D; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:26:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59DA93A69E3 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:26:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.471 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.471 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.127, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eJ4IuuSAbV3x for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9BFC93A677E for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17346 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2008 01:26:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.31) with ESMTP; 04 Jun 2008 01:26:35 -0000 Message-ID: <002601c8c5e2$065b8100$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:26:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... 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04 Jun 2008 01:27:35 -0000 Message-ID: <002901c8c5e2$2a38deb0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:27:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyA8bWFyayBkb3QgZGF2aXMgYXQgaWN1IGRhc2ggcHJvamVjdCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3 cm90ZToKCj4gSG93ZXZlciwgSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIEpvaG4gdGhhdCBQcml2YXRlVXNlIGNvZGVz IGFyZSBzcGVjaWFsIGluIHRlcm1zCj4gb2YgYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIG9mIExUUlUsIGFyZSBjYWxs ZWQgb3V0IGluIHRoZSBzcGVjLCBhbmQgc2hvdWxkIGJlCj4gZGlzdGluZ3Vpc2hlZCBieSBtb3Jl IHRoYW4ganVzdCBhIERlc2NyaXB0aW9uLgoKSSBkb24ndCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHdoYXQgaXMgc3Bl Y2lhbCAqYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJhbGx5KiBhYm91dCBwcml2YXRlLXVzZQpsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWdz IGluIHRoZSByYW5nZSAncWFhJyB0aHJvdWdoICdxdHonLiAgVGhleSB3b3JrIGp1c3QgbGlrZQpv dGhlciAzLWxldHRlciBsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWdzIHN1Y2ggYXMgJ2hhdycsIGV4Y2VwdCB0aGF0 IHRoZWlyIG1lYW5pbmcKaXMgZGVmaW5lZCBieSBwcml2YXRlIGFncmVlbWVudDsgYnV0IHRoYXQn cyBzZW1hbnRpYywgbm90IGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyYWwuCgpJIGRvIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgd2hhdCBpcyBz cGVjaWFsIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyYWxseSBhYm91dCAieC1tdW1ibGUiIGFuZAoiZW4teC1tdW1ibGUi LCBidXQgd2UncmUgbm90IHRhbGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgdGhhdCB0eXBlIG9mIHByaXZhdGUtdXNlLgoK LS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAg VVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwu Y2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 18:28:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65DA3A6A76; 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04 Jun 2008 01:28:32 -0000 Message-ID: <002c01c8c5e2$4ca01720$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:28:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: [Ltru] Bogus language tags in Wikipedia X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org S2VudCBLYXJsc3NvbiA8a2VudCBkb3Qga2FybHNzb24xNCBhdCBjb21oZW0gZG90IHNlPiB3cm90 ZToKCj4gVGhvdWdoIG5vdCBmb3JtYWxseSBhIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZywgV2lraXBlZGlhLCBmb3Ig aW5zdGFuY2UsIHVzZXMKPiBmaXUtdnJvIChhIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gY29kZSBhdWdtZW50ZWQgZXh0 bGFuZyBzdHlsZSB3aXRoIGEgaG9tZS1ncm93bgo+IGNvZGUgZm9yIFbDtXJvKSBhcyB0aGUgbGFu Z3VhZ2UgcHJlZml4IGZvciBWw7VybyBXaWtpcGVkaWEsIG5vdAo+IGV0LXNvbWV0aGluZy4gTm90 IHRoYXQgSSB0aGluayB1c2luZyBhIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gY29kZSB0aGF0IHdheSBpcyBhdAo+IGFs bCBnb29kIChvciBldmVuIHVzZSBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlIGNvZGVzIHRoYXQgd2F5KSwgSSdtIGp1 c3Qgbm90aW5nCj4gdGhhdCB0aGV5IERPTidUIHVzZSBldC0uLi4gLgoKVXNpbmcgYSBjb2xsZWN0 aW9uIGNvZGUgbWF5IG5vdCBiZSBnb29kLCBidXQgbWFraW5nIHVwIHRoZWlyIG93bgozLWxldHRl ciBzdWJ0YWcgJ3ZybycgaXMganVzdCBhYm91dCB0aGUgd29yc3QgdGhpbmcgYW55b25lIGNhbiBk byB3aXRoCmxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ3MuICBJZiB0aGUgdGFnIHRoZXkgbmVlZCBkb2Vzbid0IGV4aXN0 LCB0aGV5IHNob3VsZCBiZSB1c2luZwphIHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIHRhZywgc3VjaCBhcyAieC12b3Jv IiBvciAiZml1LXgtdm9ybyIgb3IgZXZlbiAicWFhIi4gIEFzCmxvbmcgYXMgdGhleSBoYXZlIGEg cGFnZSBzb21ld2hlcmUgdGhhdCBzaG93cyB0aGVpciBhc3NpZ25tZW50cywgdGhhdCdzCnRoZWly ICJwcml2YXRlIGFncmVlbWVudC4iICBPciB0aGV5IGNvdWxkIHJlcXVlc3QgYSByZWdpc3RyYXRp b24gb24KaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMuICBBbnl0aGluZyBpcyBiZXR0ZXIgdGhhbiBtYWtpbmcgdXAg dGhlaXIgb3duIHRhZyBpbiB0aGUKbm9uLXByaXZhdGUgc3BhY2UuCgpVbmZvcnR1bmF0ZWx5LCBp dCdzIG5vdCB0aGUgb25seSB0aW1lIFdpa2lwZWRpYSBoYXMgZG9uZSB0aGF0LCBhbmQgaXQKZG9l c24ndCBldmVuIG1hdHRlciBpZiB0aGUgY29kZSBhbHJlYWR5IGV4aXN0cyBpbiBJU08gNjM5LTM6 CgotICJiYXQtc21nIiBmb3IgU2Ftb2dpdGlhbiAoJ3NtZycgaXMgU2ltYmFsaSkKLSAiY2JrLXph bSIgZm9yIFphbWJvYW5nYSBDaGF2YWNhbm8gKCd6YW0nIGlzIE1pYWh1YXRsw6FuIFphcG90ZWMp Ci0gIm1hcC1ibXMiIGZvciBCYW55dW1hc2FuICgnYm1zJyBpcyBCaWxtYSBLYW51cmkpCgphbmQg cHJvYmFibHkgb3RoZXJzOyBJIHN0b3BwZWQgY2hlY2tpbmcgYWZ0ZXIgdGhyZWUgZXhhbXBsZXMu CgpUaGlzIGlzIG11Y2ggd29yc2UgdGhhbiBzbGlnaHRseSBpbXByZWNpc2UgdGFnZ2luZywgb3Ig dGFnZ2luZyB0aGF0CmRvZXNuJ3QgZXhoaWJpdCBwZXJmZWN0IGZhbGxiYWNrIGJlaGF2aW9yOyB0 aGlzIGlzIGNvd2JveSB0YWdnaW5nLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFk bywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0 dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDov L3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 18:34:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7300C3A6A4E; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:34:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7533A6A4E for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:34:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Ay1rfKe-DXA for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D80C3A68C1 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:34:55 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,630,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="47988352" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 04 Jun 2008 01:34:58 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m541Yvpk007189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:34:57 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:34:57 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:34:56 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] a modest proposal... Thread-Index: AcjF4g/iojh9zeKHR2iGOHxkoT8UTwAANycg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABC44D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <002601c8c5e2$065b8100$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <002601c8c5e2$065b8100$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > Type: language > > Subtag: yue > > Description: Cantonese Chinese > > ... > > > > Type: extlang > > Subtag: yue > > Prefix: zh > > Description: Cantonese Chinese > > Preferred-Value: yue > > Deprecated: 2008-06-02 > > Actually, there's a real, objective problem with this, beyond the > question of whether Doug likes deprecated-at-birth subtags or not. > > If we do this, we will have to create an exception to our rules > about > Preferred-Value. Normally a subtag has a Preferred-Value of the > same > type, but we will have to change this so that a subtag of type > "extlang" > has a Preferred-Value of type "language." Nope. See the text in draft-15. 'extlang', like grandfathered and redundant, uses an extended language range in draft-15. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 18:44:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438963A6C42; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3B33A6ABD for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:44:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4W-1C+ds6ljE for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout09.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout09-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 635AE3A6C94 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20303 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2008 01:43:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout09-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.17) with ESMTP; 04 Jun 2008 01:43:03 -0000 Message-ID: <005601c8c5e4$53771e70$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <002601c8c5e2$065b8100$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABC44D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:43:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] a modest proposal... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24gPGFkZGlzb24gYXQgYW1hem9uIGRvdCBjb20+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBO b3BlLiBTZWUgdGhlIHRleHQgaW4gZHJhZnQtMTUuCj4KPiAnZXh0bGFuZycsIGxpa2UgZ3JhbmRm YXRoZXJlZCBhbmQgcmVkdW5kYW50LCB1c2VzIGFuIGV4dGVuZGVkIGxhbmd1YWdlIAo+IHJhbmdl IGluIGRyYWZ0LTE1LgoKU28gaXQgZG9lcy4gIEFjdHVhbGx5LCB0aGF0J3MgYSBmYWlybHkgY2xl dmVyIHNvbHV0aW9uLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAq ICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cx LmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZl c3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApM dHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 19:57:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A943A6BD5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:57:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25473A693C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:57:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.554 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T+sPkFcNzXHY for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1C23A6C04 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:54:39 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:54:39 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:54:34 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjFr8fOR8rzM4VlRMCXhb+D0cJwVQAPeKLw Message-ID: References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48459AD5.5000109@malform.no> In-Reply-To: <48459AD5.5000109@malform.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Leif Halvard Silli > What we *should* say is that the Macrolanguage code should not be > locked to any particular variety. Application developers should > strive to keep it as a "free code" - a wild card that can be used > by any of the encompassed languages... > The users will then have to accept that they cannot expect to have > full control over the interface language of applications tagged as > 'no'... Same for zh/Chinese... OK, so a user selects "Cantonese" as their preference, and some apps have Cantonese UI but other apps have Mandarin UI? And then when they search on the Web all the results they get are in Mandarin? And they'd find that acceptable? Is that what you're suggesting? (I'm not making any judgments; I just want to understand.) Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 20:08:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40ED83A6C10; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:08:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1283A6C0C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:08:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.256 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.256 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.257, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_28=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GRLBt9YfQhWm for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190D03A6C04 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:08:34 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:08:34 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:08:30 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjCb86l6vRsciwpQgupBs8Mw6qTXwChM1JQAC9+YqAAAKAxYAAOq6oA Message-ID: References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <5728EACBCAA0468CB77B7AA24593E0E5@streamserve.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Broome, Karen > What about the backwards compatibility of just "zh" used for Cantonese > or Taiwanese? Sure, it will be valid, but if companies develop > algorithms assuming that zh=Mandarin because we've advised them that > this is a best practice even if that's not exactly what ISO says, > that's not so backward compatible. And "zh-yue" becomes a contradiction > in terms. Is anyone suggesting that we recommend as best practice that algorithms assume zh = Mandarin? The closest I have come is to say people should be aware that zh has very often been used in relation to Mandarin resources/content, and that they should evaluate what that may imply for their scenarios. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 20:18:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0A93A6913; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:18:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463FE3A6913 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:18:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wy+UmBs01BW0 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E1773A68CD for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:18:19 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:18:19 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:18:15 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjF3o88HqlAn7BYQcOH/jTMeTydZQAEmGqw Message-ID: References: <000e01c8c5de$85a6eca0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <000e01c8c5de$85a6eca0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Doug Ewell > > It must be crystal clear that 'zh' does NOT mean Mandarin, but rather > > any kind of Chinese. Of course, there are cases where one might > > deliberately be imprecise in tagging, but we should not be so sloppy > > in our own definitions to equate the label for the superset with the > > subset, just as we must avoid falsely limiting 'de' to "Standard > > German" or 'ar' to "Standard Arabic". > > We should decide whether this is the general sense of the working group, > or if it's more along the lines of "Tagging non-Mandarin Chinese with > 'zh' is comparable to walking through dangerous neighborhoods in the > middle of the night, blindfolded, with $100 bills pinned to one's > body." Whether or not it is so risky depends on the scenario. There are some scenarios in which it may be completely unproblematic to tag content in either Mandarin or Cantonese as "zh". Librarians do the ISO 639-2 equivalent of that all the time, for example. There may also be applications in which there would certain risks in tagging Cantonese content as "zh", and in principle there may also be applications in which tagging Mandarin content as "zh" might present risks. "zh" means "Chinese"; not Mandarin, not Cantonese. Know the requirements of your application scenarios; tag wisely. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 20:26:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6623A6A0D; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:26:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A833A6A0D for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:26:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04Vhcbd-b-Vf for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69943A6B9A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:26:11 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:26:11 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:26:07 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Bogus language tags in Wikipedia Thread-Index: AcjF4lst1PkVgqXuRU2aw3Lk8OfWQwAEBarw Message-ID: References: <002c01c8c5e2$4ca01720$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <002c01c8c5e2$4ca01720$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Bogus language tags in Wikipedia X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Doug Ewell > This is much worse than slightly imprecise tagging, or tagging that > doesn't exhibit perfect fallback behavior; this is cowboy tagging. I agree. May the fleas of 4000 open-range longhorns infest their applications. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 20:54:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4403A6AA3; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDC43A68FC for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:54:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.696 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.696 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2c80SW9PgnMa for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4787C3A69BA for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3k4o-0004n3-NW; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:54:18 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:54:18 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20080604035418.GA19699@mercury.ccil.org> References: <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > - we push back on requests to encode the encompassed varieties, > possibly ignoring legitimate cases with valid needs. Or you urge them to head for ietf-languages. -- Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN John Cowan in any language. --Allen Brown cowan@ccil.org _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 22:22:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EC0A3A68B3; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:22:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 459213A6B03 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:22:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 52HmROHhRK9s for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DA423A699E for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:22:08 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:22:08 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:17:46 -0700 Thread-Topic: zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AQHIxgLu9AlGx5cj/0mtkmlbJHUiWQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I think that lots of people feel that zh != Mandarin and that this should be clear. I don't think anyone objects to that? I also believe that there's a general consensus that some applications may want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and that this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some applications because of the historical use of zh. Is there any disagreement with this? There's been a lot of discussion on this topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form of "zh". I *think* we're all saying basically the same thing. Does anyone object to being clear that zh != Mandarin? - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 01:42:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11673A6ACE; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:42:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07DF3A6AA1 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:42:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.379 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.379 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.427, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3cuyMoOcQEEL for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A85A3A6812 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m548gt5S017692 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:42:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 17b4_39c5293c_3212_11dd_8363_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:42:55 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:45636) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:37:29 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:26:02 +0900 To: Peter Constable , "'LTRU Working Group'" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1328123736==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1328123736== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [technical hat on] I'm also leaning towards recommending to not split up et, the same way others have recommended on this list. I'd also like to take this to explain my preference for using extlangs. Over the recent weeks, I have come to the conclusion that part of what affects my preference for extlangs is what I'd have wanted to happen in the case German was a Macrolanguage (a case that Mark has brought up quite a few times). Assume there was 'de' (well, there actually is), and there was a request to encode Swiss German, under the assumption that 'de' somehow included Swiss German, but most resources tagged 'de' were (close to) Standard German. I think I would be rather surprised and quite annoyed if the collective outcome was that not only Swiss German had to be tagged as 'gsw' (so far, so good, either 'gsw' or 'de-gsw' would be fine), but also that while 'de' was still tolerated for any German, good tagging practice meant that all 'de' tags had to be changed, most of them to some completely new code 'ge@'. If I lived in Switzerland, a lot of my content would be in Standard German and therefore affected. Changing from 'de' to 'ge@' would look and feel silly. Changing from 'de' to 'de-ge@' would be an increase in precision, also implying that 'de' wasn't in principle wrong or outdated. And in my view much less confusing for the majority of users. Mind you, while I understand that, and why, linguistically Swiss German is treated as a separate language, people in Switzerland talk about, and understand Swiss German as a collection of German dialects. And it's in my view mostly these end-users that we have to think about, because they are the biggest group of people who will use these tags. Given that it is not really fully clear yet what we as a group will end up with, I'd definitely want to spare the Estonians the trouble of having two codes for mostly the same thing just to be correct in terms of coding policy. I wonder whether a designation for et as follows wouldn't work: et Estonian (mostly Standard Estonian) As just recently discussed on this list, it wouldn't be wrong for German either, it would actually be more appropriate :-! At 10:22 08/06/04, Peter Constable wrote: >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Kent Karlsson > > >> > If they have Macrolanguage situation, >> >> They don't, almost by definition. See Peter's explanation >> of why the notion of "macrolanguage" was invented. It had to >> do with matching -2 codes with -3 codes. So far V$B‰S(Bo has >> not had a language code, so there is no such matching issue. > >I don't quite follow this. The origins of the macrolanguage notion arose in >figuring out how to map items in 639-2 with the candidates for 639-3, but >the definition of macrolanguage doesn't reference that. > >If et/est was only used for Standard Estonian, then it might be possible to >say that V$B‰S(Bo is simply something new. On the other hand, if there is >existing usage of et/est for V$B‰S(Bo, and if V$B‰S(Bo and Std Estonian are >considered distinct languages, then it would be the case that et/est is >used (at least in some contexts) for distinct languages -- making it either >a collection or macrolanguage. If there are some contexts in which et/est >is considered to be a single language, then those options are reduced to >macrolanguage. > >There are a bunch of "if"s in there. Your suggestion earlier is that we not >consider et/est as encompassing V$B‰S(Bo. There are, however, known instances >of just that, however. > >At some point, we face a dilemma: either > >- we intentionally narrow denotations to ensure stability and freedom from >problems for the majority language; or The idea that a language code/subtag is completely stable in denotation is anyway just an ideal. As we know, languages change all the time. In the limit, there may be books that a librarian tagged as 'et' because s/he figured out it was published in Estonia, or what, without really being even close to understanding any Estonian or Vo"ro. Also, we don't know how many taggers used 'et' because they knew about Vo"ro, were looking in the list, and said: "Well, it's not Estonian, but the best code I can find in the list is Estonian, so I'll go with that for the lack of something better." None of these in any way imply that 'et' included Vo"ro in its denotation. Indeed all we have for 'et' in 693-1 (which is the main source for this code in LTRU) is the name of the language. Regards, Martin. >- we deprecate the existing category and create new categories for the >split, giving us a set of categories free of the macrolanguage problems and >stability in the denotation of existing IDs, but a situation in which a >deprecated category is what many applications continue to use and consider >preferred, and in which there's no formal connection between the old ID and >the new ones; or > >- we re-scope the existing ID as macrolanguage and add new IDs for >encompassed languages, ensuring stability in denotation of the existing ID >but taking on potential issues that come with macrolanguages (we probably >are hoping that the macrolanguage can continue to be used as in the past, >with most actual usage being specifically for the predominant language, the >rest not being of significance for most of our applications); or > >- we push back on requests to encode the encompassed varieties, possibly >ignoring legitimate cases with valid needs. > > > >Peter >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp --===============1328123736== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1328123736==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 01:59:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEC23A6AA1; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:59:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3D13A6806 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:59:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.114 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o+SD9eirkUph for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76163A6C91 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m548gsZt017687 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:42:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 5981_395c7824_3212_11dd_8a8c_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:42:54 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:45636) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:37:29 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152146.087cde30@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:27:03 +0900 To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost> <002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost> <001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48459AD5.5000109@malform.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 11:54 08/06/04, Peter Constable wrote: >OK, so a user selects "Cantonese" as their preference, and some apps have >Cantonese UI but other apps have Mandarin UI? And then when they search on >the Web all the results they get are in Mandarin? And they'd find that >acceptable? "acceptable" is a stretchable term, in most cases. Some Cantonese users may prefer a Mandarin UI to a UI in French or English or what not. Given what we have heard on this list about written Cantonese and Mandarin, it may even be that most Cantonese users would have such a preference. For search results again, they may prefer something relevant in Mandarin to nothing/irrelevant in Cantonese, even though of course their top preference is relevant stuff in Cantonese. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 05:16:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B038B28C0FB; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:16:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6EEF28C0F8 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:16:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.223, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yl+ldzKDl16m for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2895728C11C for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m54CFP8J017903 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:15:28 +0200 Message-ID: <4846875D.1060108@malform.no> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:15:25 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group References: <01c301c8bbe5$8c2810c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080527170755.05bd89c0@localhost><002f01c8c024$0dcdb5c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><6.0.0.20.2.20080528163346.074fac80@localhost><001f01c8c122$0cbcae80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013A84C314@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><007601c8c1bc$84d93920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><104f01c8c1d8$94ad6f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20805291559x4f6243a8pecc7ee92c2a36d9c@mail.gmail.com><30b660a20805300911j1713bff0xa7e8e468e039d42@mail.gmail.com> <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AABBD22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48459AD5.5000109@malform.no> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [Ltru] Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable 2008-06-04 04.54: >> [...] On Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli >> What we *should* say is that the Macrolanguage code should >> not be locked to any particular variety. Application >> developers should strive to keep it as a "free code" - a wild >> card that can be used by any of the encompassed languages... > >> The users will then have to accept that they cannot expect to >> have full control over the interface language of applications >> tagged as 'no'... Same for zh/Chinese... > > OK, so a user selects "Cantonese" as their preference, and some > apps have Cantonese UI but other apps have Mandarin UI? And So far, so good. Yes, this is what I suggest. Those apps which include a localisation tagged as "zh" will offer the "zh"-tagged localization to the users who are using the Cantonese Window UI when and if a Cantonese UI for that particular application is lacking. This should not prevent that the same application can include a 'zh-cmn' resource to be used in the Mandarin UI, when and if needed. This is similiar to the en/en-UK/en-US analogy. More spesific will overrule less spesific. > then when they search on the Web all the results they get are > in Mandarin? And they'd find that acceptable? No, this does not follow. Here the en/en-UK/en-US analogy breaks. Taking Mac OS X as example, I can allready today place Nynorsk on top of its "language list", despite that Mac OS X is lacking any Nynorsk interface (except that id does offer daynames in nynorsk spelling). Doing so will make Safari - and other application which takes its accept-language from the Mac OS X language preference list - send the message that it accepts "nn". Thus, in case of a Cantonese UI preference, an application should definitely tell the Web that it accepts Cantonese, whether the UI of the app in question is tagged with 'zh' or 'zh-yue'. > Is that what you're suggesting? > > (I'm not making any judgments; I just want to understand.) A UI tagged as "en-any-variant" should default to the accept-language "en". While a "zh-yue" application, even if it may accept the macrolanguage as "backup language", should tell the Web that it accepts the encompassed language itself. Thus in your example, it should tell that it accepts 'zh-yue'/Cantonese. (Whether it should *also* tell the web that it also accepts 'zh', is technically another question.) -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 12:10:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F86C28C253; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:10:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A57F28C253 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:10:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vtsl6lFwCwi4 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA4528C233 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:05:20 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:05:20 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Martin Duerst , 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:05:19 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian Thread-Index: AcjGHv6JIZ424f3bT5iAkawTMFS9DAAVqiWg Message-ID: References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > [technical hat on] > > I'm also leaning towards recommending to not split up et, > the same way others have recommended on this list. IIUC, you're saying you lean in favour of re-scoping et as a macrolanguage = and adding two (or more) new IDs for encompassed varieties, including V=F5r= o and (presumably) Standard Estonian -- is that right? Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 13:01:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C08093A6CF9; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED483A6CDD for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vZapgupQ2FQ3 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC863A6CF9 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:01:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=FEvQ/5t9PFH+WB9AgqUX/YvOMum5fqTbOFIiYIqBmJnEL2gP2RypFFNOwf6QcCMC; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.146.101] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K3zBH-00018G-CF for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:01:59 -0400 Message-ID: <000801c8c67d$ed0fb3a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com><48458AEC.1030503@malform.no><6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:02:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b35ee7148afce40b085cc17a5d851a2b63350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.146.101 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Peter Constable" > To: "Martin Duerst" ; "'LTRU Working Group'" > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 12:05 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian ... > IIUC, you're saying you lean in favour of re-scoping et as a > macrolanguage and adding two (or more) new IDs for > encompassed varieties, including V=F5ro and (presumably) Standard Estonia= n -- is that right? While not pretending to speak for Martin, I think we should recognize that a similar needs will exist for most languages - 1) a need to tag material as being specifically in a "standard" form of a language (the utility of such a thing depends on a language's situation) 2) a need to tag material as being in some particular variety of a langu= age 3) a need to tag material as being in a language, without comment on the specific variety, recognizing that the broadness / narrowness of what gets counted as being varieties of the same language varies, for good historical and sociolinguistic reasons. (2) and (3) are covered by our existing regime of subtags. We haven't been as explicit as we should be about (1). This case also could be handled with subtags, but there have not been many corresponding registrations. This could be because most languages don't need to specifically identify their "standard" forms, but I think more likely because we've tended to overload the meaning of a naked language tag to mean both "any variety of this language" (superset) and "the standard variety of this language" (exemplary subset). Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 13:06:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609E53A6D04; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:06:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB57B3A6D0A for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:06:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.262 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.262 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.286, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ue45EHm8b7to for ; 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Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806041306p1dc66a3fm6e39c82d5fe4e383@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:06:43 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <000801c8c67d$ed0fb3a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <000801c8c67d$ed0fb3a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 32385525e974df39 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1513154532==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1513154532== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1513154532==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 13:39:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C8E3A6D1A; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:39:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173A23A6D12 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:39:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.693 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.693 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0l5HTMOcfoHi for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2002E3A6D17 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K3zlW-0001h9-Du; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:39:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:39:26 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080604203926.GB16283@mercury.ccil.org> References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <000801c8c67d$ed0fb3a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20806041306p1dc66a3fm6e39c82d5fe4e383@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806041306p1dc66a3fm6e39c82d5fe4e383@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > I agree. Ideally, we would have a code (where it makes a difference) for > "any variety" and "standard variety". We could introduce a variant tag "standard" for the purpose, to be added to unicentric languages like German, Dutch, and French. (It would be inappropriate for English, Catalan, or Norwegian.) -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org All "isms" should be "wasms". --Abbie _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 14:08:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8341E3A6C23; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:08:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037A83A6BA4 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:08:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xfS1vixPjPpI for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2313A6B8A for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so271433rvf.49 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:08:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=Vs1nPD3ghhLWxk3pXVHEEezu5LG6ivU2cJlLx1VZssQ=; b=qjnLh8jrHJct0VfpUvviNBIFdkb7fEEfdu0IJRZEMgV1VC3TKpzDmatf+Z22bDalz5 wNRfvEGhnjHhCBo0rs1+ya4wFmS1VN4JxOSFRq7f43NaFenRkFIwzG3jAaYJlUMn2lrg HYI2yebTHnQoOHPzzx+Ko4mKkWAdi6s9AWgzI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=mMOpLXkWVBAN+Ds6aKvM5oZ9lYZB/ubxqjDMwAosYIqghwC25Jw3XrnBEV8T2xch4E HuaMgQM/vqzmrQtJjYDECrDefxWpaM1hr5MGs/3AX7bZGaMzN+iq6yaepzNCzgzR+N0n gO9zP0A4Rlp2/d5Mk9FwoGELS+Aph661TLnb0= Received: by 10.140.134.15 with SMTP id h15mr356301rvd.65.1212613697677; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.76.19 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <41a006820806041408w8de7415x8ce35589a0236b6b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:08:17 +0200 From: "Gerard Meijssen" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080604203926.GB16283@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <000801c8c67d$ed0fb3a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20806041306p1dc66a3fm6e39c82d5fe4e383@mail.gmail.com> <20080604203926.GB16283@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0805561425==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0805561425== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3984_26458147.1212613697655" ------=_Part_3984_26458147.1212613697655 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi, How would you deal with Dutch 2006 or 1996 or 1986 ... every ten years there is a change to the orthography... How would you deal with the "witte boekje" that is the orthography used by Dutch newspapers in opposition to the official "groene boekje" ?? There is no such thing as standard Dutch, there is only standard Dutch given a specific orthography. Thanks, Gerard On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 10:39 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > I agree. Ideally, we would have a code (where it makes a difference) for > > "any variety" and "standard variety". > > We could introduce a variant tag "standard" for the purpose, to be added > to unicentric languages like German, Dutch, and French. (It would be > inappropriate for English, Catalan, or Norwegian.) > > -- > John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan > cowan@ccil.org > All "isms" should be "wasms". --Abbie > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_3984_26458147.1212613697655 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi,
How would you deal with Dutch 2006 or 1996 or 1986 ... every ten years there is a change to the orthography... How would you deal with the "witte boekje" that is the orthography used by Dutch newspapers in opposition to the official "groene boekje" ??

There is no such thing as standard Dutch, there is only standard Dutch given a specific orthography.
Thanks,
     Gerard

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 10:39 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> I agree. Ideally, we would have a code (where it makes a difference) for
> "any variety" and "standard variety".

We could introduce a variant tag "standard" for the purpose, to be added
to unicentric languages like German, Dutch, and French.  (It would be
inappropriate for English, Catalan, or Norwegian.)

--
John Cowan  http://ccil.org/~cowan  cowan@ccil.org
All "isms" should be "wasms".   --Abbie
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_3984_26458147.1212613697655-- --===============0805561425== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0805561425==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 14:24:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8C73A6CFC; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5483A6CFC for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:24:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2+CrDw5VfGcu for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106793A6B3D for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so162411ywj.49 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:24:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=LotOUMNgO5xhx6vWdokQq51or5ov8mWkRWquXresx3k=; b=IaeEs4+S6v6w17w7X2kio5AYf/VM5/h3o6vVKPh/FWgacAQAFKX4n0XAvm0jmrC8lR c25webcKoB+so1zVKDLp71542o8gvV2SPIOgz0BEocjm88SPb6w80xylRluaZrcv7K2Z o61wtPXCoIZMMdHyV7YHIRYopcNhdtj+Xdt6A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=DrqNw05i4HM2Kz3Z/DJdR+Hv86ONaqnheX54BgKQh4xBiEU15e+gohJia/GCpuHrno +s2ZicpMrOqxO1GEy18uiVlBvGcZ90AiEhhJqmuYONtZnZxjksPaMEtZ7d5rvejBnFk5 HSvl9LWr22tyaVMxpkxwrrkV8pcQUMWwFNnVY= Received: by 10.151.98.16 with SMTP id a16mr747815ybm.202.1212614647050; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806041424w518226e8h5df693f3ed3c8bfd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:24:07 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Gerard Meijssen" In-Reply-To: <41a006820806041408w8de7415x8ce35589a0236b6b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <000801c8c67d$ed0fb3a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20806041306p1dc66a3fm6e39c82d5fe4e383@mail.gmail.com> <20080604203926.GB16283@mercury.ccil.org> <41a006820806041408w8de7415x8ce35589a0236b6b@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 751b51e0835d0a21 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0013810480==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0013810480== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3690_3033986.1212614647083" ------=_Part_3690_3033986.1212614647083 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All of these are matters of degree, as John explained in an earlier message, and doesn't go down to that level of specificity. Mark On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > How would you deal with Dutch 2006 or 1996 or 1986 ... every ten years > there is a change to the orthography... How would you deal with the "witte > boekje" that is the orthography used by Dutch newspapers in opposition to > the official "groene boekje" ?? > > There is no such thing as standard Dutch, there is only standard Dutch > given a specific orthography. > Thanks, > Gerard > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 10:39 PM, John Cowan wrote: > >> Mark Davis scripsit: >> >> > I agree. Ideally, we would have a code (where it makes a difference) for >> > "any variety" and "standard variety". >> >> We could introduce a variant tag "standard" for the purpose, to be added >> to unicentric languages like German, Dutch, and French. (It would be >> inappropriate for English, Catalan, or Norwegian.) >> >> -- >> John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan >> cowan@ccil.org >> All "isms" should be "wasms". --Abbie >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > > -- Mark ------=_Part_3690_3033986.1212614647083 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All of these are matters of degree, as John explained in an earlier message, and doesn't go down to that level of specificity.

Mark

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi,
How would you deal with Dutch 2006 or 1996 or 1986 ... every ten years there is a change to the orthography... How would you deal with the "witte boekje" that is the orthography used by Dutch newspapers in opposition to the official "groene boekje" ??

There is no such thing as standard Dutch, there is only standard Dutch given a specific orthography.
Thanks,
     Gerard

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 10:39 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> I agree. Ideally, we would have a code (where it makes a difference) for
> "any variety" and "standard variety".

We could introduce a variant tag "standard" for the purpose, to be added
to unicentric languages like German, Dutch, and French.  (It would be
inappropriate for English, Catalan, or Norwegian.)

--
John Cowan  http://ccil.org/~cowan  cowan@ccil.org
All "isms" should be "wasms".   --Abbie
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark
------=_Part_3690_3033986.1212614647083-- --===============0013810480== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0013810480==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 17:05:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D287D3A68CB; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:05:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463CC3A67D1 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.687, BAYES_05=-1.11, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TvGX0VTBsils for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 33BA73A6B14 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10527 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2008 00:05:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.29) with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2008 00:05:19 -0000 Message-ID: <000701c8c69f$d6bc8d40$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:05:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org R2VyYXJkIE1laWpzc2VuIDxnZXJhcmQgZG90IG1laWpzc2VuIGF0IGdtYWlsIGRvdCBjb20+IHdy b3RlOgoKPj4gV2UgY291bGQgaW50cm9kdWNlIGEgdmFyaWFudCB0YWcgInN0YW5kYXJkIiBmb3Ig dGhlIHB1cnBvc2UsIHRvIGJlIAo+PiBhZGRlZCB0byB1bmljZW50cmljIGxhbmd1YWdlcyBsaWtl IEdlcm1hbiwgRHV0Y2gsIGFuZCBGcmVuY2guICAoSXQgCj4+IHdvdWxkIGJlIGluYXBwcm9wcmlh dGUgZm9yIEVuZ2xpc2gsIENhdGFsYW4sIG9yIE5vcndlZ2lhbi4pCj4KPiBIb3cgd291bGQgeW91 IGRlYWwgd2l0aCBEdXRjaCAyMDA2IG9yIDE5OTYgb3IgMTk4NiAuLi4gZXZlcnkgdGVuIHllYXJz IAo+IHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgY2hhbmdlIHRvIHRoZSBvcnRob2dyYXBoeS4uLiBIb3cgd291bGQgeW91 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<30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:22:13 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Shawn Steele" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0ca620a31fab2852 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0637873726==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0637873726== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4383_15916474.1212628933634" ------=_Part_4383_15916474.1212628933634 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHdoYXQgeW91IHNheS4gSSBkb24ndCB0aGluayBhbnlvbmUgb2JqZWN0cyB0 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D874E3A69D4; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D0E3A685F for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iaBpNcIcSJEH for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org (smtp1.wsfo.org [208.145.81.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04CBF3A69D4 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m551QTJb028985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:26:29 -0400 X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.75 (ClamAV engine v0.93) Received: from [118.172.24.33] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO sil-mh4) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPSA id 183722487 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:26:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:26:35 +0700 From: Martin Hosken To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Message-ID: <20080605082635.6b03e3e5@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 172.22.0.51 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RGVhciBQZXRlciwKCj4gR2l2ZW4gb3VyIGN1cnJlbnQgZGVsaWJlcmF0aW9ucywgaXQgc2VlbXMg YXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgZm9yIG1lIHRvIGdpdmUgYSBoZWFkcyB1cCB0aGF0IHRoZSBKQUMgaGFzIGJl ZW4gZ2l2ZW4gYSByZXF1ZXN0IHRvIGhhdmUgYSBzZXBhcmF0ZSBpZGVudGlmaWVyIGZvciB0aGUg VsO1cm8gdmFyaWV0eSB3aXRoaW4gRXN0b25pYW4sIGFuZCB0aGF0IGEgbGlrZWx5IHdheSBvZiBo YW5kbGluZyB0aGluZ3MsIGlmIGl0J3MgZGVjaWRlZCB0byBjb2RlIHRoYXQsIHdvdWxkIGJlIHRv IGNoYW5nZSB0aGUgc2NvcGUgZm9yIGV0L2VzdCBmcm9tIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdG8g bWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZSwgd2l0aCBWw7VybyBhbmQgYXQgbGVhc3Qgb25lIG90aGVyIHZhcmlldHkg YXMgZW5jb21wYXNzZWQgbGFuZ3VhZ2VzLgoKRm9yIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gSSBpbnRyb2R1Y2UgdGhy ZWUgbWFkZSB1cCBsYW5ndWFnZSB0YWdzOgoKZXNzIC0gc3RhbmRhcmQgRXN0b25pYW4Kdm9yIC0g VsO1cm8KZXNmIC0gRXNmYXNpYW4sIGEgbWFkZSB1cCBsYW5ndWFnZSB0aGF0IEknbGwgZXhwbGFp 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YWlubHkuCgpUaGUgb25seSBhbHRlcm5hdGl2ZSBJIGNhbiBzZWUgaXMgb3VyIHNheWluZyB0aGF0 IGlmIHdlIGNhbGwgb3V0IGVzZiB0aGVuIHdlIGp1c3QgYWRkIGl0IHRvIHRoZSBlc3QgbWFjcm8g bGFuZ3VhZ2UgYW5kIHNheSB0aGF0IHVzZXJzIG9mIGVzcyBtYXkgbmVlZCB0byByZXRhZy4gSXMg dGhhdCBhY2NlcHRhYmxlPwoKQlRXIGFsbCB0aGlzIGlzIG9ydGhvZ29uYWwgdG8gd2hldGhlciBv bmUgdXNlcyBleHRsYW5nIHRvIHJlZmxlY3QgdGhlIGhpZXJhcmNoeTogZXN0LWVzcy1lc2Ygb3Ig bm90OiBlc2YsIHNpbmNlIHRoZSBoaWVyYXJjaHkgaXMgaW4gdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IGZvciB0aG9z ZSB3aG8gd2FudCBpdC4KCllvdXJzLApNYXJ0aW4KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 18:36:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF9693A6A09; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:36:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58FD3A6A09 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:36:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.691 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.691 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id evW7d0BzP57t for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13703A68B5 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K44Oc-0001lN-0H; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:36:06 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:36:05 -0400 To: Gerard Meijssen Message-ID: <20080605013605.GC16283@mercury.ccil.org> References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <000801c8c67d$ed0fb3a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20806041306p1dc66a3fm6e39c82d5fe4e383@mail.gmail.com> <20080604203926.GB16283@mercury.ccil.org> <41a006820806041408w8de7415x8ce35589a0236b6b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41a006820806041408w8de7415x8ce35589a0236b6b@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Gerard Meijssen scripsit: > How would you deal with Dutch 2006 or 1996 or 1986 ... every ten years there > is a change to the orthography... How would you deal with the "witte boekje" > that is the orthography used by Dutch newspapers in opposition to the > official "groene boekje" ?? If you, or anyone else, find it useful to do so, you can register variant subtags to express these distinction. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Promises become binding when there is a meeting of the minds and consideration is exchanged. So it was at King's Bench in common law England; so it was under the common law in the American colonies; so it was through more than two centuries of jurisprudence in this country; and so it is today. --Specht v. Netscape _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 18:46:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09FF3A687C; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:46:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68953A687C for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:46:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.876 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.876 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.500, BAYES_50=0.001, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LtfovHmFVrMi for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550473A67A8 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so210074ywj.49 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:46:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=NTLE+JWQZjowy1AFDqfbUMQgsM1hCsVSBx5rD6s609w=; b=o4or5b4x84buQIPBkmncl7GBf968pLwgYw/4ZsFwgeAvRvp+qkshd1X2kHyb5RNM/9 DW4wkMk4U498iFlXJUNtrYEpPeCO22vqiJlIvY765ZzFDhccTcWHJJJc+VAZi8inwMiG WICMcXp8j0krWypVunLzrBMeLK3+vYy2H8DG4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=VpazAdiCJUhdKDRobbk1KNG7jVZGx1WzQfCkRLdAX0IlUObdYPHym4ZlTyz0dio08f H2xdLSUn0SW4eAPt4aDkBypWKKk81is7X3Eex4x6yz6K+9KAoPK40hWewvzOY8vxrutW kz/CIaW7g6LPG3Kx9r+NU6V94xI1vy3rh30aU= Received: by 10.150.54.6 with SMTP id c6mr1079434yba.7.1212630383240; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806041846h12f41e22rd67599b5dbd7da93@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:46:23 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Martin Duerst" In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> X-Google-Sender-Auth: f3be712b7bc42f8e Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0090041490==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0090041490== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4482_8162753.1212630383227" ------=_Part_4482_8162753.1212630383227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline MjAwOC82LzQgTWFydGluIER1ZXJzdCA8ZHVlcnN0QGl0LmFveWFtYS5hYy5qcD46Cgo+IFt0ZWNo bmljYWwgaGF0IG9uXQo+Cj4gSSdtIGFsc28gbGVhbmluZyB0b3dhcmRzIHJlY29tbWVuZGluZyB0 byBub3Qgc3BsaXQgdXAgZXQsCj4gdGhlIHNhbWUgd2F5IG90aGVycyBoYXZlIHJlY29tbWVuZGVk IG9uIHRoaXMgbGlzdC4KPgo+IEknZCBhbHNvIGxpa2UgdG8gdGFrZSB0aGlzIHRvIGV4cGxhaW4g bXkgcHJlZmVyZW5jZSBmb3IgdXNpbmcgZXh0bGFuZ3MuCj4gT3ZlciB0aGUgcmVjZW50IHdlZWtz LCBJIGhhdmUgY29tZSB0byB0aGUgY29uY2x1c2lvbiB0aGF0IHBhcnQgb2Ygd2hhdAo+IGFmZmVj dHMgbXkgcHJlZmVyZW5jZSBmb3IgZXh0bGFuZ3MgaXMgd2hhdCBJJ2QgaGF2ZSB3YW50ZWQgdG8g 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[127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816BC3A6BBB; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:53:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5575F3A67AB for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:53:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.383 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.383 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p1TDfoU1q4Zl for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5383A685B for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m552rKLq004567 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 04:53:20 +0200 Message-ID: <48475520.1020908@malform.no> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 04:53:20 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <000801c8c67d$ed0fb3a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20806041306p1dc66a3fm6e39c82d5fe4e383@mail.gmail.com> <20080604203926.GB16283@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080604203926.GB16283@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan 2008-06-04 22.39: > Mark Davis scripsit: > >> I agree. Ideally, we would have a code (where it makes a difference) for >> "any variety" and "standard variety". > > We could introduce a variant tag "standard" for the purpose, to be added > to unicentric languages like German, Dutch, and French. (It would be > inappropriate for English, Catalan, or Norwegian.) I guess you could use "en-GB-standard"? And why not "nn-standard"? For macrolanguages, however, I agree. The "standard" could not be applied to them. Or else "standard" would soon end up being associated with a particular encompassed language ... For Estonian this would mean that when encompassed languages were registered, then one should not use "et-standard" anymore. (To know what "standard" mean then, one needs a timestamp. But that perhaps the same for any tag.) The same for "de", if German is to be considered macrolanguage. For Mandarin, which discerns between simple and traditional script, I begin to wonder how to eventually use it ... -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 20:37:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C3523A6B42; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:37:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176073A6B0E for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:37:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oJ9sY0grioYf for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2F23A6858 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:37:38 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:37:38 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:37:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqqCEZ9ZJ8RaXSz6TV0wQtVIycwAES8rQ Message-ID: References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2014983320==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2014983320== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579563336814C1NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579563336814C1NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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--===============2014983320== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2014983320==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 20:53:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F4E3A6B2D; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7A83A6AF3 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.209, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b2e0gCwi-phQ for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA453A6B2D for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m553rdo1010086 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:53:40 +0200 Message-ID: <48476343.7030003@malform.no> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:53:39 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group References: <20080605082635.6b03e3e5@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <20080605082635.6b03e3e5@sil-mh4> Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken 2008-06-05 03.26: > For discussion I introduce three made up language tags: > = > ess - standard Estonian vor - V=F5ro esf - Esfasian, a made up > language that I'll explain in a moment eso - an even more > standard Estonian > = > In calling out vor from est we are narrowing est and as such We're not changing 'est'. Only knowledging that it covers more = than one language. > need to create two languages to reflect the narrowed est and > the vor. Thus est =3D ess + vor. I think that's what you are > saying? > = > What happens if we later discover a language called Esfasian > that needs to be called out from ess? Does ess become a macro > language and we have yet another code for standard Estonian? So > we would need a eso for the narrowed ess, such that ess =3D eso + > esf and est =3D ess + vor. How could it happen that Esfasian speakers could accept to be seen = as a part of micro-Estonian, but would not be associated with = macro-Estonian? ;-) -- = leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 20:56:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437233A6B0E; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:56:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D939B3A6A01 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:56:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Zz9DtJM5Xll for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CCE53A6B0E for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:56:25 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:56:25 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:56:24 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian Thread-Index: AcjGrfZdywKPIMKnS2SwjwIzdctToQAEDtIA Message-ID: References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <30b660a20806041846h12f41e22rd67599b5dbd7da93@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806041846h12f41e22rd67599b5dbd7da93@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis > I think the best approach would be the current de/gsw model. > - The code et means standard Estonian, period. > - Anything that is sufficiently mutually incomprehensible > enough to warrant a separate language code should just get one. That probably would seem reasonable -- unless perhaps you're one of the people who have up to now assumed that et encompassed that variety that just got a separate language code. I note just over a week ago (27/5) you said > It would also have been reasonable for someone to interpret > 'de' as Any German (and up until 2006-03-08, encompassing > Swiss German), I guess you're being consistent in your position -- which appears to be that narrowing the denotation of an ID is OK as long as a predominant variety doesn't change it's ID? Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 21:10:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C861A3A6B74; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:10:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B3A3A6B74 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:10:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bfDOWuuf93xT for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4F53A67AB for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:10:03 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Gk2EHjktiWfBKsquXxlPQMqeG36RNubnk1F98Uf9OewknSbUmqIkhFi+tUVWap4k; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.188.58] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K46ng-00032l-Jn for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:10:08 -0400 Message-ID: <003301c8c6c2$20aca6c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20080605082635.6b03e3e5@sil-mh4> <48476343.7030003@malform.no> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:10:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b36f51bc8c4946799d0f7382d123fae912350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.188.58 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... Returning to Martin Hosken's hypothetical example... > ess - standard Estonian > vor - V=F5ro > esf - Esfasian, a made up language that I'll explain in a moment > eso - an even more standard Estonian Assuming for the sake of the example that there are good reasons to distinguish these in some application domain... Am I the only one who thinks the tidiest (and easiest to explain) way of handling this would be to use et-ess et-vor et-esf et-eso and, of course, naked et for folks who don't care or can't tell the differe= nce? Unlike an example like Erzgebirgisch, where there's a question of which language in a dialect continuum the variety "belongs to", there appears to be no question that all the cases in this hypothetical example are all varieties of the same language, Estonian. (I base this on the Ethnologue claim that Voro and "standard" Estonian are mutually intelligible.) Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 21:20:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209C528C146; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:20:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB9C3A6B0C for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:20:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.688 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.688 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.089, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mu+jqS9jEIdV for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72AB03A6BA6 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K46uM-0002n2-Nf; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:17:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:17:02 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080605041702.GD16283@mercury.ccil.org> References: <48476343.7030003@malform.no> <003301c8c6c2$20aca6c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <003301c8c6c2$20aca6c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > Unlike an example like Erzgebirgisch, where there's a question of which > language in a dialect continuum the variety "belongs to", there appears > to be no question that all the cases in this hypothetical example are all > varieties of the same language, Estonian. (I base this on the Ethnologue > claim that Voro and "standard" Estonian are mutually intelligible.) to register as the variant subtag 'werro' (or whatever). -- Possession is said to be nine points of the law, John Cowan but that's not saying how many points the law might have. cowan@ccil.org --Thomas A. Cowan (law professor and my father) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 4 21:20:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E5A28C126; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:20:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708703A6A01 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LkKcrIQYCg4p for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout04-02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout04-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.196]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E1AD28C137 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2566 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2008 04:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout04-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.199) with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2008 04:17:13 -0000 Message-ID: <001101c8c6c3$07691a30$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:17:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyA8bWFyayBkb3QgZGF2aXMgYXQgaWN1IGRhc2ggcHJvamVjdCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3 cm90ZToKCj4gVGhpcyBpcyB3YXkgZG93biBpbiB0aGUgbm9pc2UgbGV2ZWw6IHpoLWNtbiBldmVu IG9jY3VycyBmYXIsIGZhciBsZXNzIAo+IG9mdGVuIHRoYW4gc3VzcGVjdCwgaXJyZWd1bGFyIG9y IGJvZ3VzIHRhZ3MgbGlrZToKPiAuLi4KPiB6aC1jbGFzc2ljYWwKCkFoLiAgQW5vdGhlciBpbnZh bGlkIHRhZyAtLSBub3QgZXZlbiB3ZWxsLWZvcm1lZCB0aGlzIHRpbWUgLS0gYnJvdWdodCB0byAK dXMgYnkgV2lraXBlZGlhLgoKSSdtIGEgaHVnZSBmYW4gb2YgV2lraXBlZGlhIHBlciBzZSwgYnV0 IHRoZWlyIHJlY29yZCBvZiBhZGhlcmVuY2UgdG8gYW55IApndWlkZWxpbmVzIGF0IGFsbCBmb3Ig bGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnZ2luZyBpcyBub3QgZ29vZC4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwg Q29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGlj Lm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1s Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2Vz ICDLhgoKCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpM dHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 01:07:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B09E3A6BD2; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:07:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340453A6BD2 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:07:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.489, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1FeBHQUiowff for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [217.70.190.232]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D933A6BF8 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id AEB2033348; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:07:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: by horcrux (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BE97A157AA1; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:26:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:26:37 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080604152637.GD27433@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 8.04 (hardy) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Standard german (Was: Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 11:24:48AM -0700, Randy Presuhn wrote a message of 46 lines which said: > just as we must avoid falsely limiting 'de' to "Standard German" or > 'ar' to "Standard Arabic". Hold on. For Standard Arabic, the "proper" tag is "arb". But for Standard German, what could be used instead of "de" if we change "de" to mean "Any sort of German"? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 01:07:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C713A6BF0; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:07:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 943DC3A6C05 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:07:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.026 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.026 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.419, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3zoCqSYlpC9t for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [217.70.190.232]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93123A6BFB for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id C4D4332451; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:07:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: by horcrux (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DBEBF157AA1; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:24:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:24:10 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080604152410.GC27433@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <005001c8c479$bb10dab0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 8.04 (hardy) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] More on combination type/scope field X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 12:27:28AM -0600, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 17 lines which said: > Alternatively, if combining the fields is too distasteful for some, > we could add separate "Language-Type" and "Scope" fields > corresponding to the two ISO 639-3 designations. I prefer this one.The two concepts seem to be on separate axis so should be represented by different fields. > In that case, I suggest omitting the "Language-Type" field when the > value is "living," and omitting the "Scope" field when the value is > "individual," since these are the overwhelming majority and can be > treated as defaults. Why not. But why? For limiting the size of the file? For easier reading under vi or Notepad? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 01:12:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E2F3A6BB3; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:12:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F283A6BD6 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:12:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.102, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nf2oWiUTVWcA for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E43F3A68E0 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:12:48 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:12:48 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: Mark Davis Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:12:14 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzK Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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And to = be clear and address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to continue to= use zh for Cantonese?
 
- S= hawn
From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [= mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis [mark.davis@icu-projec= t.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:22 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone objects to zh !=3D Man= darin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that it is valid to tag M= andarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all, Chinese. What we worked o= ut before (and this is orthogonal to extlang vs nextlang) is to say that it is recommended to use zh-cmn, but that for = backwards compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh for Mandari= n.

(More useful advice would be that because of backwards compatibility p= eople should expect that into the indefinite future, "zh" will pr= edominate, and should keep that in mind as in using these codes either for = tagging content or matching content. However, we can live with having impractical advice in the spec as long as it is cl= ear that people aren't forced to follow it for compliance.)

Just for information, we reran some analysis and in terms of web pages= , the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately 1/250000 of the number of pages tagged with zh*. T= his is way down in the noise level: zh-cmn even occurs far, far less often than suspect, irregular or bogus tags like= :

zh_tw

zh_cn

ch

zh-hk

zh-classical

zh-tw-tw

gbk

zh-en

zhs

zh-cn-cn

zht

zh_hk

zho

zh-ch

zh-cn-utf-8

zh_ch

zht-tw

zhtw

zh-tw; xmlns

=BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4

=D3=A2=CE=C4

...


(there are even more frequent completely bogus tags; I filtered these = to ones that had something to do with Chinese).

Mark

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele &l= t;Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com<= /a>> wrote:
I think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D Mandarin and that this should= be clear.  I don't think anyone objects to that?

I also believe that there's a general consensus that some applications may = want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and that = this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some application= s because of the historical use of zh.

Is there any disagreement with this?  There's been a lot of discussion= on this topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form = of "zh".  I *think* we're all saying basically the same thin= g.  Does anyone object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin?

- Shawn
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--
Mark
--_000_C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561BFAA261ANAEXMSGC116re_-- --===============1137388918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1137388918==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 01:29:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D283A6C96; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:29:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1455628C10F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:29:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i4ZNaXdRtSeH for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C776528C1A2 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so537197rvf.49 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:27:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=EsS2JVNT521vkP+2+cjZ/7DTz5rBLeOT3xTp1Kw004Y=; b=do1d9KSHsc5MkcW4Bx4XFLxAC+cZaruKDIHvuBQY6N08LWX5UpjmNxmUW7ULRMPLQn 4QzltpBAlK9Y5vM9ZIPTIiU88fP9cBzfP/3jchV9vaTWFhQYSs19XSzzN+wmxU59nZMW a3/pOCPj+830p1djn4oj7K70HPA3mt75MJP3Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=wYSriprBBe0Nu3XhV3Fa1XclubM3A/H1zsH9kuGkXoE2dS1KhwZeutY71SOmiTNl7e l+cqFRPAzkdYOHjLxp9y7AT3WkNsSwBugl9ZppWs2ZTV56w9Gr4g15pspnuP2hj4j9Ab oWXhiMCNQUjlP405g5y60mYYiWcxGIpDTEWcI= Received: by 10.140.132.8 with SMTP id f8mr653779rvd.206.1212654465149; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.76.19 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <41a006820806050127t208a718byd47a1640ea583ba5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:27:45 +0200 From: "Gerard Meijssen" To: "Shawn Steele" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0182329205==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 02:42:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035F43A6C35; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 02:42:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC513A6C6F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 02:42:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eANc3kSqsPu5 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 02:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2075E3A6C35 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 02:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008155165.msg for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:52:40 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:52:40 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=104208a220=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:42:55 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Randy Presuhn'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <20080605082635.6b03e3e5@sil-mh4><48476343.7030003@malform.no> <003301c8c6c2$20aca6c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:41:19 +0100 Message-ID: <15eb01c8c6f0$4ee46220$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <003301c8c6c2$20aca6c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> thread-index: AcjGwrhqaunFhx6vQc+071ruOwwgLgALXhlA X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:52:40 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1940888024==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1940888024== Randy wrote: > Assuming for the sake of the example that there are good > reasons to distinguish these in some application domain... > Am I the only one who thinks the tidiest (and easiest to > explain) way of handling this would be to use et-ess et-vor > et-esf et-eso and, of course, naked et for folks who don't > care or can't tell the difference? No, you are not alone :-) Debbie > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 05 June 2008 05:11 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > Returning to Martin Hosken's hypothetical example... > > ess - standard Estonian > > vor - Võro > > esf - Esfasian, a made up language that I'll explain in a > moment eso - > > an even more standard Estonian > > Assuming for the sake of the example that there are good > reasons to distinguish these in some application domain... > Am I the only one who thinks the tidiest (and easiest to > explain) way of handling this would be to use et-ess et-vor > et-esf et-eso and, of course, naked et for folks who don't > care or can't tell the difference? > > Unlike an example like Erzgebirgisch, where there's a > question of which language in a dialect continuum the variety > "belongs to", there appears to be no question that all the > cases in this hypothetical example are all varieties of the > same language, Estonian. (I base this on the Ethnologue > claim that Voro and "standard" Estonian are mutually intelligible.) > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > --===============1940888024== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1940888024==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 02:56:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BB63A6D00; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 02:56:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9D23A69DB for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 02:56:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.350, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n93K6hDmpmdz for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 02:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230513A6D00 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 02:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008155249.msg for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:05:57 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:05:57 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=104208a220=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:56:13 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Shawn Steele'" , "'Mark Davis'" References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:54:36 +0100 Message-ID: <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: thread-index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAA= X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:05:57 +0100 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0472680866==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0472680866== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_15F6_01C8C6FA.8C181010" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_15F6_01C8C6FA.8C181010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have said this probably too many times now but here goes again... 'zh' is chinese, any sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at the time = of tagging was not known to be any particular variety. 'zh' ! Mandarin and 'zh' ! Cantonese etc. 'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not correct! =20 As stated before, whilst we are all now perfectly aware that the = 'dominant' language within data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we should in no way encourage people to continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or Cantonese = or anything else other than Chinese unknown/unstated variety. It is my = opinion that we should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the = WG decide to go, MUST be used for all future tagging and that 'zh' will continue to be treated as Chinese all/any varieties. If you wish to = have an indicator in the file that clearly shows that a particular extlang is considered dominant within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy to do. =20 I feel we are going around in circles here. We have had a straw poll = and yet we seem to still be going down the same route over and over again. = 'zh' does not and should not and must not mean Mandarin! =20 best regards =20 Debbie _____ =20 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shawn Steele Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12 To: Mark Davis Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin And to be clear and address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to continue to use zh for Cantonese? =20 - Shawn _____ =20 From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On = Behalf Of Mark Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:22 PM To: Shawn Steele Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone objects to zh !=3D = Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that it is valid to tag = Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all, Chinese. What we worked out before = (and this is orthogonal to extlang vs nextlang) is to say that it is = recommended to use zh-cmn, but that for backwards compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh for Mandarin.=20 (More useful advice would be that because of backwards compatibility = people should expect that into the indefinite future, "zh" will predominate, = and should keep that in mind as in using these codes either for tagging = content or matching content. However, we can live with having impractical advice = in the spec as long as it is clear that people aren't forced to follow it = for compliance.) Just for information, we reran some analysis and in terms of web pages, = the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately 1/250000 of the number = of pages tagged with zh*. This is way down in the noise level: zh-cmn even occurs far, far less often than suspect, irregular or bogus tags like:=20 zh_tw zh_cn ch zh-hk zh-classical zh-tw-tw gbk zh-en zhs zh-cn-cn zht zh_hk zho zh-ch zh-cn-utf-8 zh_ch zht-tw zhtw zh-tw; xmlns =BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4 =D3=A2=CE=C4 ... (there are even more frequent completely bogus tags; I filtered these to ones that had something to do with Chinese). Mark On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele = wrote: I think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D Mandarin and that this = should be clear. I don't think anyone objects to that? I also believe that there's a general consensus that some applications = may want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and = that this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some applications = because of the historical use of zh. Is there any disagreement with this? There's been a lot of discussion = on this topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form = of "zh". I *think* we're all saying basically the same thing. Does anyone object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin? - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 Mark=20 ------=_NextPart_000_15F6_01C8C6FA.8C181010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have said this probably too many times now = but here goes=20 again...
'zh' is chinese, any sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at = the time of=20 tagging was not known to be any particular variety.  'zh' ! = Mandarin and=20 'zh' ! Cantonese etc.  'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not=20 correct!
 
As stated before, whilst we are all now perfectly aware that=20 the 'dominant' language within data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we = should=20 in no way encourage people to continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or = Cantonese or anything else other than Chinese unknown/unstated = variety.  It=20 is my opinion that we should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that=20 is the way the WG decide to go, MUST be used for all future = tagging=20 and that 'zh' will continue to be treated as Chinese all/any = varieties.  If=20 you wish to have an indicator in the file that clearly shows that a = particular=20 extlang is considered dominant within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy = to=20 do.
 
I=20 feel we are going around in circles here.  We have had a straw poll = and yet=20 we seem to still be going down the same route over and over again. 'zh' = does not=20 and should not and must not mean Mandarin!
 
best regards
 
Debbie

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shawn=20 Steele
Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12
To: Mark=20 Davis
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] = zh !=3D=20 Mandarin

And to be = clear and=20 address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to continue to use zh = for=20 Cantonese?
 
-=20 Shawn
From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com=20 [mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis=20 [mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 = 6:22=20 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: LTRU Working=20 Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D = Mandarin

I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone objects to zh = !=3D=20 Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that it is valid = to tag=20 Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all, Chinese. What we = worked out=20 before (and this is orthogonal to extlang vs nextlang) is to say that = it is=20 recommended to use zh-cmn, but that for backwards compatibility people = may=20 choose to continue to use zh for Mandarin.=20

(More useful advice would be that because of backwards = compatibility=20 people should expect that into the indefinite future, "zh" will = predominate,=20 and should keep that in mind as in using these codes either for = tagging=20 content or matching content. However, we can live with having = impractical=20 advice in the spec as long as it is clear that people aren't forced to = follow=20 it for compliance.)

Just for information, we reran some analysis and in terms of web = pages,=20 the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately 1/250000 of the number of pages tagged = with zh*.=20 This is way down in the noise level: zh-cmn even occurs far, far less = often=20 than suspect, irregular or bogus tags like:=20

zh_tw

zh_cn

ch

zh-hk

zh-classical

zh-tw-tw

gbk

zh-en

zhs

zh-cn-cn

zht

zh_hk

zho

zh-ch

zh-cn-utf-8

zh_ch

zht-tw

zhtw

zh-tw; xmlns

=BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4

=D3=A2=CE=C4

...


(there are even more frequent completely bogus tags; I filtered = these to=20 ones that had something to do with Chinese).

Mark

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele = <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com= >=20 wrote:
I=20 think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D Mandarin and that this = should be=20 clear.  I don't think anyone objects to that?

I also = believe=20 that there's a general consensus that some applications may want to=20 match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and that = this=20 isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some applications = because of the=20 historical use of zh.

Is there any disagreement with this?=20  There's been a lot of discussion on this topic, and that seems = to be=20 most of Karen's concern with any form of "zh".  I *think* we're = all=20 saying basically the same thing.  Does anyone object to being = clear=20 that zh !=3D Mandarin?

-=20 Shawn
_______________________________________________
Ltru = mailing=20 list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


--
Mark =
------=_NextPart_000_15F6_01C8C6FA.8C181010-- --===============0472680866== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0472680866==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 03:44:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65DDE28C14A; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:44:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C0728C14A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:44:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.956 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.956 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.919, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.069, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id paglrMmpBh6J for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D216128C265 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m55AhjdU007881 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:43:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 61d4_45f77018_32ec_11dd_8a45_0014221fa3c9; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:43:45 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:49736) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:38:19 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080605100549.0a3d2a00@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:08:02 +0900 To: Peter Constable , "'LTRU Working Group'" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1258411137==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1258411137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 04:05 08/06/05, Peter Constable wrote: >> From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > > >> [technical hat on] >> >> I'm also leaning towards recommending to not split up et, >> the same way others have recommended on this list. > >IIUC, you're saying you lean in favour of re-scoping et as a macrolanguage >and adding two (or more) new IDs for encompassed varieties, including V$B‰S(Bo >and (presumably) Standard Estonian -- is that right? No, I'm saying that I'd be okay with this if I were really sure that we'd end up with extlangs (not only for zh). As I'm not totally sure about that, I think the damage is smaller if you just introduce a new code for Vo"ro, and (as you call it) narrow the denomination 'et', without introducing a macrolanguage. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp --===============1258411137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1258411137==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 03:44:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E28528C1E0; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:44:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028643A63C9 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:44:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.187 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.187 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NwFbwRs8xLKd for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22BA28C266 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m55Aho93000881 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:43:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 19ad_48bbbbf6_32ec_11dd_88ed_0014221f2a2d; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:43:50 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:49736) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:38:22 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080605193900.053b15a0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:42:41 +0900 To: Martin Hosken , "'LTRU Working Group'" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <20080605082635.6b03e3e5@sil-mh4> References: <20080605082635.6b03e3e5@sil-mh4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org To some extent, what Martin Hosken describes below may in some cases come close to a denial-of-service attack, along the lines: "Hey, you have 'et', but we are included there, so we claim to be a separate language and force a split." I'm sure that it's never meant that way, and I definitely don't want to claim that users of minority lanugages are at fault, but if there is a policy that whenever the original code even marginally included a minority language that's splitting off, there is a code split with two new codes, the result may sometimes be quite annoying. Regards, Martin. At 10:26 08/06/05, Martin Hosken wrote: >Dear Peter, > >> Given our current deliberations, it seems appropriate for me >to give a heads up that the JAC has been given a request to have a separate >identifier for the V$B%F%*(Bro variety within Estonian, and that a likely way of >handling things, if it's decided to code that, would be to change the scope >for et/est from individual language to macrolanguage, with V$B%F%*(Bro and at >least one other variety as encompassed languages. > >For discussion I >introduce three made up language tags: > >ess - standard Estonian >vor - >V$B%F%*(Bro >esf - Esfasian, a made up language that I'll explain in a moment >eso >- an even more standard Estonian > >In calling out vor from est we are >narrowing est and as such need to create two languages to reflect the >narrowed est and the vor. Thus est = ess + vor. I think that's what you are >saying? > >What happens if we later discover a language called Esfasian that >needs to be called out from ess? Does ess become a macro language and we >have yet another code for standard Estonian? So we would need a eso for the >narrowed ess, such that ess = eso + esf and est = ess + vor. > >At which >point ess becomes an historic anomaly since people really should be just >using est, eso, vor, esf. > >This could go on indefinitely each time we split >a language code. It's a good way to fill up the code space, certainly. > >The >only alternative I can see is our saying that if we call out esf then we >just add it to the est macro language and say that users of ess may need to >retag. Is that acceptable? > >BTW all this is orthogonal to whether one uses >extlang to reflect the hierarchy: est-ess-esf or not: esf, since the >hierarchy is in the registry for those who want >it. > >Yours, >Martin >_______________________________________________ >Ltru >mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltr #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 07:49:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F5503A6D2F; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:49:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C368A28C205 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:49:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.555 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.555 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3BaLW4if971T for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D39C3A6D2F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:47:53 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:47:53 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:47:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian Thread-Index: AcjGwhFDNAtzh8FpTfiU8Njx/LfiWAADbx8Q Message-ID: References: <20080605082635.6b03e3e5@sil-mh4> <48476343.7030003@malform.no> <003301c8c6c2$20aca6c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <003301c8c6c2$20aca6c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Randy Presuhn > Returning to Martin Hosken's hypothetical example... > > ess - standard Estonian > > vor - V=F5ro > > esf - Esfasian, a made up language that I'll explain in a moment > > eso - an even more standard Estonian > > Assuming for the sake of the example that there are good reasons > to distinguish these in some application domain... > Am I the only one who thinks the tidiest (and easiest to explain) way > of > handling this would be to use > et-ess > et-vor > et-esf > et-eso > and, of course, naked et for folks who don't care or can't tell the > difference? Perceived merits of (i) using the existing approach of adding subtags to na= rrow the intension, and also (ii) the ability to associate the new, encompa= ssed category with the older and familiar encompassing category were signi= ficant factors that contributed to the suggesting the extlang idea in the f= irst place. For a scenario such as this, in which a coded category in established use g= ets analyzed into discrete, constituent categories each coded as individual= languages, I do see those two things as pros of the extlang approach -- al= l other things being equal. Of course, I'm sure if everyone agreed that all other things *are* equal, w= e would have had consensus a long time ago. Mark, for one, just responded t= o Martin giving reasons he thought other things are *not* equal, and in fac= t (he considers) are worse with the extlang approach. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 08:02:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B53328C24A; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:02:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D08128C254 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:02:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.454 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.454 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4xmTSmRZOa+W for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DFE28C20B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:01:25 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:01:25 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:01:25 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAACreuAA== Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> 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We know that several of us wholeheartedly hold to the princi= ple that =A1=B0zh=A1=B1 is any sort of =A1=B0Chinese=A1=B1. Shawn asked whether= anyone *doesn=A1=AFt* agree. I=A1=AFd like to see if there are any who *don=A1=AFt* agree.=

 

I=A1=AFm one that does agree with that principle, and becaus= e of that, I could not accept having the RFC state the =A1=B0zh-cmn=A1=B1 (or =A1=B0cm= n=A1=B1) *MUST* be used for all future tagging of Mandarin. That=A1=AFs like saying =A1=B0= =A1=AFzh=A1=AF is any kind of Chinese except Mandarin=A1=B1. We can recommend that =A1=B0zh-cmn= =A1=B1 (or =A1=B0cmn=A1=B1) should generally be used for Mandarin, and even that =A1=B0zh=A1=B1 should = not be used for Mandarin in environments that need to distinguish between Mandarin and Cantonese or other Chinese languages. But we need to leave users free to us= e zh for whatever kind of Chinese they want to use it for, including Mandarin = =A8C and potentially only Mandarin, if that suits their needs.

 

 

Peter

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of De= bbie Garside
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:55 AM
To: Shawn Steele; 'Mark Davis'
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

 

I have said this probably too many times now but here goes agai= n...

'zh' is chinese, any sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at the time of taggin= g was not known to be any particular variety.  'zh' ! Mandarin and 'zh' = ! Cantonese etc.  'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not correct!

 

As stated before, whilst we are all now perfectly aware that the 'dominan= t' language within data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we should in no way encour= age people to continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or Cantonese or anything = else other than Chinese unknown/unstated variety.  It is my opinion that we should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the WG dec= ide to go, MUST be used for all future tagging and that 'zh' will continue= to be treated as Chinese all/any varieties.  If you wish to have an indic= ator in the file that clearly shows that a particular extlang is considered domi= nant within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy to do.

 

I feel we are going around in circles here.  We have had a straw poll an= d yet we seem to still be going down the same route over and over again. 'zh' does not and should not and must not mean Mandarin!

 

best regards

 

Debbie

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shawn Steele
Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12
To: Mark Davis
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

And to be clear and address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to continue to use zh for Cantonese?

 

- Shawn

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:22 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone object= s to zh !=3D Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that it is val= id to tag Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all, Chinese. What we wor= ked out before (and this is orthogonal to extlang vs nextlang) is to say that i= t is recommended to use zh-cmn, but that for backwards compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh for Mandarin.

 

(More useful advice would be that because of backwards compatibility people should expect that into the indefinite future, "zh" will predominate, and should keep that in mind as in using t= hese codes either for tagging content or matching content. However, we can live = with having impractical advice in the spec as long as it is clear that people ar= en't forced to follow it for compliance.)

 

Just for information, we reran some analysis and in te= rms of web pages, the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately 1/250000 of the number of pages tagged with zh*. This is way down in the noise level: zh-cmn even occurs fa= r, far less often than suspect, irregular or bogus tags like:

 

zh_= tw

zh_= cn

ch<= o:p>

zh-= hk

zh-= classical

zh-= tw-tw

gbk=

zh-= en

zhs=

zh-= cn-cn

zht=

zh_= hk

zho=

zh-= ch

zh-= cn-utf-8

zh_= ch

zht= -tw

zht= w

zh-= tw; xmlns

=BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4

=D3=A2=CE=C4

...=

<= o:p> 

(= there are even more frequent completely bogus tags; I filtered these to ones that= had something to do with Chinese).

<= o:p> 

M= ark

 

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com&g= t; wrote:

I think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D Mandarin= and that this should be clear.  I don't think anyone objects to that?

I also believe that there's a general consensus that some applications may = want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and that this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some applications bec= ause of the historical use of zh.

Is there any disagreement with this?  There's been a lot of discussion= on this topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form of "zh".  I *think* we're all saying basically the same thing.  Does anyone object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin?

- Shawn
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB835795633368156CNAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============0192629338== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0192629338==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 08:04:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9228928C254; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:04:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387C228C254 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:04:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.503, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WhXb4FE7fOEH for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E9D28C172 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:04:35 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:04:32 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Martin Duerst , 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:04:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian Thread-Index: AcjG+Q4boTOF0nOjTlyqGp0zpU4BowAJBNdQ Message-ID: References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20080605100549.0a3d2a00@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080605100549.0a3d2a00@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org U28sIHlvdSdyZSBzYXlpbmcgdGhpczogaWYgd2UgZ28gd2l0aCBleHRsYW5nIGFjcm9zcyB0aGUg Ym9hcmQsIHJlLXNjb3BpbmcgZXQgd291bGQgYmUgYmVzdDsgYnV0IGlmIHdlIGRvbid0IGdvIHdp dGggZXh0bGFuZywgdGhlbiBuYXJyb3dpbmcgZXQgYnkgImNoaXBwaW5nIG9mZiIgVsO1cm8gd291 bGQgYmUgYmVzdC4gSXMgdGhhdCByaWdodD8NCg0KDQpQZXRlcg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwg TWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IE1hcnRpbiBEdWVyc3QgW21haWx0bzpkdWVyc3RAaXQuYW95 YW1hLmFjLmpwXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEp1bmUgMDQsIDIwMDggNjowOCBQTQ0KPiBU bzogUGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlOyAnTFRSVSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwJw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTog W0x0cnVdIGhlYWRzIHVwOiBFc3Rvbmlhbg0KPg0KPiBBdCAwNDowNSAwOC8wNi8wNSwgUGV0ZXIg Q29uc3RhYmxlIHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+PiBGcm9tOiBNYXJ0aW4gRHVlcnN0IFttYWlsdG86ZHVlcnN0 QGl0LmFveWFtYS5hYy5qcF0NCj4gPg0KPiA+DQo+ID4+IFt0ZWNobmljYWwgaGF0IG9uXQ0KPiA+ Pg0KPiA+PiBJJ20gYWxzbyBsZWFuaW5nIHRvd2FyZHMgcmVjb21tZW5kaW5nIHRvIG5vdCBzcGxp dCB1cCBldCwNCj4gPj4gdGhlIHNhbWUgd2F5IG90aGVycyBoYXZlIHJlY29tbWVuZGVkIG9uIHRo aXMgbGlzdC4NCj4gPg0KPiA+SUlVQywgeW91J3JlIHNheWluZyB5b3UgbGVhbiBpbiBmYXZvdXIg b2YgcmUtc2NvcGluZyBldCBhcyBhDQo+IG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UNCj4gPmFuZCBhZGRpbmcgdHdv IChvciBtb3JlKSBuZXcgSURzIGZvciBlbmNvbXBhc3NlZCB2YXJpZXRpZXMsIGluY2x1ZGluZw0K PiBWGyRC5ZSEGyhCbw0KPiA+YW5kIChwcmVzdW1hYmx5KSBTdGFuZGFyZCBFc3RvbmlhbiAtLSBp cyB0aGF0IHJpZ2h0Pw0KPg0KPiBObywgSSdtIHNheWluZyB0aGF0IEknZCBiZSBva2F5IHdpdGgg dGhpcyBpZiBJIHdlcmUgcmVhbGx5IHN1cmUNCj4gdGhhdCB3ZSdkIGVuZCB1cCB3aXRoIGV4dGxh bmdzIChub3Qgb25seSBmb3IgemgpLiBBcyBJJ20gbm90IHRvdGFsbHkNCj4gc3VyZSBhYm91dCB0 aGF0LCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBkYW1hZ2UgaXMgc21hbGxlciBpZiB5b3UganVzdCBpbnRyb2R1Y2UN Cj4gYSBuZXcgY29kZSBmb3IgVm8icm8sIGFuZCAoYXMgeW91IGNhbGwgaXQpIG5hcnJvdyB0aGUg ZGVub21pbmF0aW9uICdldCcsDQo+IHdpdGhvdXQgaW50cm9kdWNpbmcgYSBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdl Lg0KPg0KPiBSZWdhcmRzLCAgICBNYXJ0aW4uDQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+ICMtIy0jICBNYXJ0aW4gSi4g RHUicnN0LCBBc3NvYy4gUHJvZmVzc29yLCBBb3lhbWEgR2FrdWluIFVuaXZlcnNpdHkNCj4gIy0j LSMgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuc3cuaXQuYW95YW1hLmFjLmpwDQo+IG1haWx0bzpkdWVyc3RAaXQuYW95 YW1hLmFjLmpwDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 08:25:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D431628C19E; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:25:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5972528C1A7 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:25:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.882 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.882 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.221, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l0kU2gUYncC1 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C8828C19E for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so75597yxg.49 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:22:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Tm/DYdLlD1YvizdpN0SH50cQRz9T9ISR5EPGCUOl9K8=; b=qY/crlOnX/E2ZbqOfuoBjmCUOp/KvtoxV2oGbztnSXco65Qij5MdXI3lec75KLNK/D G1uRFZ1UzeDnLzn2aQIzwPnnY4a3lRmRZRor4Efq0uOt+NhVEXlA0TW4KfRfvcwLATJc OzcsuAZErf+fVrrxSwPtLRALdIpQ2r2ak7uCU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=wn7EYsdWQ/MREoETAAVtkJ6AnlIhtruT9umyuzP/rGaLzhD0TU1mDUc6bMaintg7bI beKVzSsDquLZi10bt8h/JPjfO3tM9ualZnyqXk74Tg5fopV01L5hpEbki2VGASCPuPB/ bXte7i5mztxt5DDpwNAUCp0aLDittyTgi6ld8= Received: by 10.150.206.21 with SMTP id d21mr1895983ybg.227.1212679371493; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806050822t621e6c02xffc713c2d72a9c7a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:22:51 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <30b660a20806041846h12f41e22rd67599b5dbd7da93@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4e16c4ecde302bab Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0376978917==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0376978917== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2085_18934873.1212679371476" ------=_Part_2085_18934873.1212679371476 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Part of the problem, I think we'll all agree, is that it is just not clear from ISO 639-2 or -1 what "de" / "German" means. If you think it means "anything that someone might think of as German", then essentially *every* language code is a macrolanguage, and gsw should be an encompassed language, and we'd need a separate code for Hochdeutsch. And of course the same goes for "fr" being a macrolanguage, and "nl", and so on. Any of the creoles or pidgins would count as encompassed languages, and we'd need a special code for the "standard" form of every language. By that interpretation, any time we carve out a code that is *not* an encompassed language, like "gsw", we are illegitimately narrowing the main code ("de"). And of course we have a huge mass of software and data that needs to be changed (for no good reason). The other interpretation is that the codes "de", "fr", "en", "et", and so on mean the standard form of the language (including variants that is not mutually incomprehensible). That is, anything that was far enough to be qualify as a separate language would have a separate code. In that case, distinguishing "gsw" or any similar code is not a narrowing, and perfectly legitimate. There are many, many cases where this interpretation has been followed in 639, as evidenced by the many cases where languages were distinguished without being made encompassed languages. Look at the half-dozen German's, the dozen or so French's, the few Dutch's, and so on. And frankly, I think the second is a far more useful approach, and just a reasonable an view of how ISO 639 has been interpreted in the past. And when we are talking about compatibility, it doesn't matter what the framers of a standard intended -- if they were not specific *in the text*; it matters instead how the text of the standard was interpreted by users, in millions of implementations and billions of data records. It is far easier for backwards compatibility if the existing code is interpreted as applying to the standard form, and if necessary a new code is given for the collection/macrolanguage than the reverse. I'm not arguing that we should change 'zh', but interpreted as 'any form' rather than 'standard form' where it is not necessary just makes the situation far more complicated than necessary, and is no more justified by past practice than the interpretation as the 'standard' form. Mark On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Peter Constable wrote: > From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On > Behalf Of Mark Davis > > > I think the best approach would be the current de/gsw model. > > - The code et means standard Estonian, period. > > - Anything that is sufficiently mutually incomprehensible > > enough to warrant a separate language code should just get one. > > That probably would seem reasonable -- unless perhaps you're one of the > people who have up to now assumed that et encompassed that variety that just > got a separate language code. I note just over a week ago (27/5) you said > > > It would also have been reasonable for someone to interpret > > 'de' as Any German (and up until 2006-03-08, encompassing > > Swiss German), > > I guess you're being consistent in your position -- which appears to be > that narrowing the denotation of an ID is OK as long as a predominant > variety doesn't change it's ID? > > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_2085_18934873.1212679371476 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Part of the problem, I think we'll all agree, is that it is just not clear from ISO 639-2 or -1 what "de" / "German" means.

If you think it means "anything that someone might think of as German", then essentially *every* language code is a macrolanguage, and gsw should be an encompassed language, and we'd need a separate code for Hochdeutsch. And of course the same goes for "fr" being a macrolanguage, and "nl", and so on. Any of the creoles or pidgins would count as encompassed languages, and we'd need a special code for the "standard" form of every language. By that interpretation, any time we carve out a code that is *not* an encompassed language, like "gsw", we are illegitimately narrowing the main code ("de"). And of course we have a huge mass of software and data that needs to be changed (for no good reason).

The other interpretation is that the codes "de", "fr", "en", "et", and so on mean the standard form of the language (including variants that is not mutually incomprehensible). That is, anything that was far enough to be qualify as a separate language would have a separate code. In that case, distinguishing "gsw" or any similar code is not a narrowing, and perfectly legitimate. There are many, many cases where this interpretation has been followed in 639, as evidenced by the many cases where languages were distinguished without being made encompassed languages. Look at the half-dozen German's, the dozen or so French's, the few Dutch's, and so on.

And frankly, I think the second is a far more useful approach, and just a reasonable an view of how ISO 639 has been interpreted in the past. And when we are talking about compatibility, it doesn't matter what the framers of a standard intended -- if they were not specific *in the text*; it matters instead how the text of the standard was interpreted by users, in millions of implementations and billions of data records. It is far easier for backwards compatibility if the existing code is interpreted as applying to the standard form, and if necessary a new code is given for the collection/macrolanguage than the reverse.

I'm not arguing that we should change 'zh', but interpreted as 'any form' rather than 'standard form' where it is not necessary just makes the situation far more complicated than necessary, and is no more justified by past practice than the interpretation as the 'standard' form.

Mark


On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis

> I think the best approach would be the current de/gsw model.
> - The code et means standard Estonian, period.
> - Anything that is sufficiently mutually incomprehensible
> enough to warrant a separate language code should just get one.

That probably would seem reasonable -- unless perhaps you're one of the people who have up to now assumed that et encompassed that variety that just got a separate language code. I note just over a week ago (27/5) you said

> It would also have been reasonable for someone to interpret
> 'de' as Any German (and up until 2006-03-08, encompassing
> Swiss German),

I guess you're being consistent in your position -- which appears to be that narrowing the denotation of an ID is OK as long as a predominant variety doesn't change it's ID?




Peter
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Mark
------=_Part_2085_18934873.1212679371476-- --===============0376978917== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0376978917==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 08:28:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE5F3A6CB7; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:28:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633953A697D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:28:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.021 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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2642E3A697D; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:40:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31E743A697D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:40:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.443, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GjwFZR9kWFGC for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B3D3A6842 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m55FesZS004134 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:40:55 +0200 Message-ID: <48480907.9080701@malform.no> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:40:55 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: LTRU Working Group References: <20080605082635.6b03e3e5@sil-mh4> <48476343.7030003@malform.no> <003301c8c6c2$20aca6c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <003301c8c6c2$20aca6c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn 2008-06-05 06.10: > Hi - > = > As a technical contributor... > = > Returning to Martin Hosken's hypothetical example... >> ess - standard Estonian >> vor - V=F5ro >> esf - Esfasian, a made up language that I'll explain in a moment >> eso - an even more standard Estonian > = > Assuming for the sake of the example that there are good reasons > to distinguish these in some application domain... > Am I the only one who thinks the tidiest (and easiest to explain) way of > handling this would be to use > et-ess > et-vor > et-esf > et-eso > and, of course, naked et for folks who don't care or can't tell the diffe= rence? No, you are not the only one. -- = leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 09:38:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6329C3A6BDD; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:38:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C813A69AC for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:38:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.737 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.737 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.430, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KA+O+H-QYwl6 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67FC3A6D2E for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m55Gbcq4010089 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:37:39 +0200 Message-ID: <48481653.2080203@malform.no> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:37:39 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDIwMDgtMDYtMDUgMTcuMDE6Cgo+IFdlIGtub3cgdGhhdCBzZXZlcmFs IG9mIHVzIHdob2xlaGVhcnRlZGx5IGhvbGQgdG8gdGhlIHByaW5jaXBsZQo+IHRoYXQg4oCcemji gJ0gaXMgYW55IHNvcnQgb2Yg4oCcQ2hpbmVzZeKAnS4gWy4uLl0KCgoKPiBJ4oCZbSBvbmUgdGhh dCBkb2VzIGFncmVlIHdpdGggdGhhdCBwcmluY2lwbGUsIGFuZCBiZWNhdXNlIG9mCj4gdGhhdCwg SSBjb3VsZCBub3QgYWNjZXB0IGhhdmluZyB0aGUgUkZDIHN0YXRlIHRoZSDigJx6aC1jbW7igJ0g KG9yCj4g4oCcY21u4oCdKSAqTVVTVCogYmUgdXNlZCBmb3IgYWxsIGZ1dHVyZSB0YWdnaW5nIG9m IE1hbmRhcmluLgo+IFRoYXTigJlzIGxpa2Ugc2F5aW5nIOKAnOKAmXpo4oCZIGlzIGFueSBraW5k IG9mIENoaW5lc2UgZXhjZXB0Cj4gTWFuZGFyaW7igJ0uCgoKSSBhZ3JlZS4KCj4gV2UgY2FuIHJl Y29tbWVuZCB0aGF0IOKAnHpoLWNtbuKAnSAob3Ig4oCcY21u4oCdKSBzaG91bGQKPiBnZW5lcmFs bHkgYmUgdXNlZCBmb3IgTWFuZGFyaW4sIGFuZCBldmVuIHRoYXQg4oCcemjigJ0gc2hvdWxkIG5v dAo+IGJlIHVzZWQgZm9yIE1hbmRhcmluIGluIGVudmlyb25tZW50cyB0aGF0IG5lZWQgdG8gZGlz dGluZ3Vpc2gKPiBiZXR3ZWVuIE1hbmRhcmluIGFuZCBDYW50b25lc2Ugb3Igb3RoZXIgQ2hpbmVz ZSBsYW5ndWFnZXMuIEJ1dAoKCkFncmVlLgoKPiB3ZSBuZWVkIHRvIGxlYXZlIHVzZXJzIGZyZWUg dG8gdXNlIHpoIGZvciB3aGF0ZXZlciBraW5kIG9mCj4gQ2hpbmVzZSB0aGV5IHdhbnQgdG8gdXNl IGl0IGZvciwgaW5jbHVkaW5nIE1hbmRhcmluIOKAkyBhbmQKPiBwb3RlbnRpYWxseSBvbmx5IE1h bmRhcmluLCBpZiB0aGF0IHN1aXRzIHRoZWlyIG5lZWRzLgoKCkhvd2V2ZXIsIHdlIG11c3QgcmVx dWlyZSB0aGF0IHRoZXkgdXNlICd6aCcgaW4gdGhlIG1lYW5pbmcKJ0NoaW5lc2UnLiBJZiB0aGV5 IG5lZWQgdG8gc2F5ICdNYW5kYXJpbicsIHRoZW4gdGhleSBzaG91bGQgdXNlCnRoZSB0YWcgZm9y IHRoYXQuCgpBcHBsZSBjdXJyZW50bHkgdmlvbGF0ZXMgdGhpcyBwcmluY2lwbGUgZm9yIE5vcndl Z2lhbiwgd2hlcmUgdGhleQpzYXkgdGhhdCAnbm8nIG1lYW5zIEJva23DpWwuCgpQZXRlciwgeW91 IGFza2VkIG1lIGEgcXVlc3Rpb24uIEluIG15IGFuc3dlciBbMV0sIEkgZ2F2ZSBhbgpleGFtcGxl IG9mIGEgc2l0dWF0aW9uIHdoZXJlIHVzaW5nICd6aCcgZm9yIHRhZ2dpbmcgTWFuZGFyaW4KY29u dGVudCB3b3VsZCBiZSBnb29kLgoKWzFdaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsLWFyY2hpdmUv d2ViL2x0cnUvY3VycmVudC9tc2cxMDgwNy5odG1sCi0tIApsZWlmIGhhbHZhcmQgc2lsbGkKX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 10:09:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E1F3A6AB0; 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Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:09:45 +0200 Message-ID: <48481DD9.9060707@malform.no> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:09:45 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20080605100549.0a3d2a00@localhost> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSBhc2tlZCBEb3VnIGlmIGdvaW5nIGZvciBleHRsYW5nIGNvdWxkIGltcGFjdCBvbiB3aGV0aGVy IElTTyAKZGVmaW5lZCBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlIHNpdHVhdGlvbnMvdGFncyBvciBub3QuIEhlIGFu c3dlcmVkIG5vLiAKSG93ZXZlciwgbm90IGV2ZXJ5b25lIHNlZW1zIHRvIGFncmVlIC4uLiBJIHN1 c3BlY3RlZCB0aGF0IC4uLgoKR29pbmcgZm9yIGV4dGxhbmcgbWVhbnMKCWEpIHRoYXQgeW91IGNh biB1c2UgdGhlIG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnIGZvciBhbnkgcmVzb3VyY2Ugd2hpY2ggCmV4aXN0 IGluIGp1c3Qgb25lIG9mIHRoZSBlbmNvbXBhc3NlZCB2YXJpYW50cy4gVGhhdCdzIGVhc3khCgli KSBZb3UgY2FuIGJlIHNwZXNpZmljIC0tICJldC12b3IiIC0tIHdpdGhvdXQgbG9vc2luZyB0aG9z ZSB0aGF0IApvbmx5IGxvb2sgZm9yICJldCIuIEFsc28gc2ltcGxlLiAoVGhlIHN0YW5kYXJkIEVz dG9uaWFuIHVzZXJzIHdpbGwgCmFsbHJlYWR5IGhhdmUgcmVjZWl2ZWQgYSBwcm9wb3J0aW9uYWwg bG90IG9mIFZvcm8gY29udGVudCBhbnlob3cgLSAKcHJvdmlkZWQgRXN0b25pYW4gZGVmYWN0ICpp cyogYSBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlLCBzbyB0aGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0IAp0aGlzIGNvdWxkICJodXJ0IiBz dGFuZGFyZCBFc3RvbmlhbiB1c2VycyBpcyBtb290LikKCWMpIENvbnN1bWVycyBvbmx5IG5lZWQg dG8gY2FyZSBhYm91dCB0d28gdGFnczogaGlzIGVuY29tcGFzc2VkIApsYW5ndWFnZSB0YWcgYW5k IHRoZSBnZW5lcmFsIHRhZy4gVGhleSBjYW4gZXZlbiBzdXJ2aXZlIHZlcnkgd2VsbCAKd2l0aCBv bmx5IG9uZSB0YWcgLSB0aGUgbWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZSB0YWcuCgpXaXRob3V0IGV4dGxhbmcsIHVu bGVzcyB0aGUgVm9ybyBjb25zdW1lcnMgaW5jbHVkZXMgYWxsIDMgdGFncyBpbiAKdGhlaXIgYnJv d3NlciwgdGhleSByaXNrIHRoYXQgc3RhbmRhcmQgRXN0b25pbmFuIGlzIHRhZ2dlZCB3aXRoIAp0 aGUgbmV3IHN0YW5kYXJkLUVzdG9uaWFuIHRhZyAtIGNhdXNpbmcgdGhlbSB0byBsb29zZSBzdWNo IApjb250ZW50LCBnZXR0aW5nIGUuZy4gRW5nbGlzaCBpbnN0ZWFkLgoKSGVuY2UgSSB1bmRlcnRh bmQgTWFydGluLiBXaXRob3V0IGV4dGxhbmcgdGhlbiB0aGVyZSBjYW4gYmUgCmFkdmFudGFnZXMg Zm9yIGVuZHVzZXJzIGluIGF2b2lkaW5nIGEgbWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZSBkZWZpbml0aW9uLiAKQmVj YXVzZSB0aGVuLCBhdCB0aGUgdmVyeSBsZWFzdCwgdGhleSBkbyBub3QgbmVlZCBtb3JlIHRoYW4g dHdvIAp0YWdzIGluIG9yZGVyIHRvIGJlIGZ1bGx5IGNvdmVyZWQuCgpUaHVzLCBub3QgaGF2aW5n IHRoZSBleHRsYW5nIG9wdGlvbiBjYW4gbGVhZCBJU08gdG8gbm90IHJlY29nbml6ZSAKbWFjcm9s YW5ndWFnZSBzaXR1YXRpb25zLgoKbGhzCgpQZXRlciBDb25zdGFibGUgMjAwOC0wNi0wNSAxNy4w NDoKCj4gU28sIHlvdSdyZSBzYXlpbmcgdGhpczogaWYgd2UgZ28gd2l0aCBleHRsYW5nIGFjcm9z cyB0aGUgYm9hcmQsCj4gcmUtc2NvcGluZyBldCB3b3VsZCBiZSBiZXN0OyBidXQgaWYgd2UgZG9u J3QgZ28gd2l0aCBleHRsYW5nLAo+IHRoZW4gbmFycm93aW5nIGV0IGJ5ICJjaGlwcGluZyBvZmYi IFbDtXJvIHdvdWxkIGJlIGJlc3QuIElzIHRoYXQKPiByaWdodD8KCgo+PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFs IE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSBGcm9tOiBNYXJ0aW4gRHVlcnN0CgoKPj4gTm8sIEknbSBzYXlpbmcgdGhh dCBJJ2QgYmUgb2theSB3aXRoIHRoaXMgaWYgSSB3ZXJlIHJlYWxseQo+PiBzdXJlIHRoYXQgd2Un ZCBlbmQgdXAgd2l0aCBleHRsYW5ncyAobm90IG9ubHkgZm9yIHpoKS4gQXMgSSdtCj4+IG5vdCB0 b3RhbGx5IHN1cmUgYWJvdXQgdGhhdCwgSSB0aGluayB0aGUgZGFtYWdlIGlzIHNtYWxsZXIgaWYK Pj4geW91IGp1c3QgaW50cm9kdWNlIGEgbmV3IGNvZGUgZm9yIFZvInJvLCBhbmQgKGFzIHlvdSBj YWxsIGl0KQo+PiBuYXJyb3cgdGhlIGRlbm9taW5hdGlvbiAnZXQnLCB3aXRob3V0IGludHJvZHVj aW5nIGEKPj4gbWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZS4KCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8v d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 10:49:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B303A6CC3; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:49:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50EE93A6A2B; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:49:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.374 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.374 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1s3fIbxABkh1; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8880F28C158; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:46:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=r7opjOVoms4qRsmXNhEDxP5A+SNO8ppoOhEYWMjP3IU4d5F7mPwmpA8wghd+efYF; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.84.214] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K4JXy-00061U-2R; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:46:46 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c8c734$34c658a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" , "Disman" , Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:47:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b3b442e1eafe600d0c8042303872afb414350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.84.214 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Mailing List Filters X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As mailing list administrator for ltru, disman, and agentx, I'm forwarding this update on the handling of ietf.org mailing lists. Randy > From: "Alexa Morris" > To: > Cc: "ietf" > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 8:03 AM > Subject: Mailing List Filters > > Several weeks ago, we removed some spam filtering rules from the IETF email > lists because there were concerns that, in a few very specific > circumstances, the rules were preventing legitimate mail from getting > through. Unfortunately, the removal of those spam rules has resulted in a > huge increase in spam sent to the lists, which has in turn greatly increased > the burden for all list moderators. > > Because of this, we are planning to reinstitute two of those spam rules on > Monday of next week. For the vast majority of you, this will not even be > noticeable. However, if after Monday of next week you begin to experience > difficulty when you try to send mail to the IETF -- either to the > Secretariat or to a mailing list -- we have created a form that will enable > you to report your problem (the form bypasses the spam filters). Once we > know that you are experiencing difficulty, we can create an exception that > will enable you to send email again. > > The form is accessible under the "IETF Secretariat" link from the home page, > at the bottom of the Secretariat contact page under "To Report Problems." A > direct link is here: http://www.ietf.org/contactform.html. > > If you are curious to know what spam rules we are reinstating on Monday, > they are: > > Rule A. This rule insists that, when a machine makes a HELO greeting, and > claims to be a certain machine, the name it claims exists in its appropriate > zone file, as either an "A" or an "MX" record. > > Rule B. This rule does a reverse lookup on the client's IP address, and > makes sure that we can identify it as being IN-REV'ed by someone. > > Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or concerns. > > Regards, > Alexa > > ----------- > Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF > 48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA 94538 > Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001 > Email: amorris@amsl.com > > Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) > Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning > www.amsl.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 10:49:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB8B428C200; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:49:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292E328C1AE for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:49:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.86 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.86 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.199, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CeRcdon0jv5X for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA6B28C1BD for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so109307yxg.49 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:47:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 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Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:47:47 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk In-Reply-To: <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Google-Sender-Auth: e342f1bf2576e9a4 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0862105249==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0862105249== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2922_21711064.1212688067491" ------=_Part_2922_21711064.1212688067491 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline 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ESMTP id D55F73A6C32 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:02:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.395 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.395 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.204, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wA3Vw44AZ5R8 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49343A6C82 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:02:13 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=WFypEqSB/2K3mK987MQRhwy9CkaZB4UA1jXW95XAvWTQtK9pTRdAS+F0t/V/xhUn; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.84.214] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K4Jn0-00022l-9W for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:02:18 -0400 Message-ID: <002501c8c736$61cf5c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080604152637.GD27433@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:02:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b3dbc51900c2b2debd7a695921312d84f0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.84.214 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard german (Was: Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 8:26 AM > Subject: Standard german (Was: Consensus call: extlang > > On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 11:24:48AM -0700, > Randy Presuhn wrote > a message of 46 lines which said: > > > just as we must avoid falsely limiting 'de' to "Standard German" or > > 'ar' to "Standard Arabic". > > Hold on. For Standard Arabic, the "proper" tag is "arb". But for > Standard German, what could be used instead of "de" if we change "de" > to mean "Any sort of German"? An appropriately registered subtag following de, if someone has a need to make the distinction. (I don't see it as a change at all. Perhaps it's because I used to teach German, but for me "Standard German" is a narrowly defined and somewhat artificial beast, not to be confused with the welter of mutually intelligible varieties of German (i.e., 'de') spoken all over the world.) To misconstrue 'de' narrowly would, in my opinion, be like understanding 'fr' as limited to Parisian French. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 11:32:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF083A69A2; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:32:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B7A3A69A2 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:32:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MmiRwXokM0yF for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66D03A68D3 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:32:12 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,597,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="59913991" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Jun 2008 18:32:20 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55IWGZY009964 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:32:19 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:32:16 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:31:59 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:32:15 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Standard german (Was: Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjHNlFexnml6oqnTqi1ihqj5fPpdwAAHQaw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FD37@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080604152637.GD27433@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <002501c8c736$61cf5c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <002501c8c736$61cf5c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard german (Was: Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > But for > > Standard German, what could be used instead of "de" if we change > "de" to mean "Any sort of German"? > > An appropriately registered subtag following de, if someone has a > need > to make the distinction. (I don't see it as a change at all. > Perhaps it's > because I used to teach German, but for me "Standard German" is a > narrowly defined and somewhat artificial beast, not to be confused > with the welter of mutually intelligible varieties of German (i.e., > 'de') > spoken all over the world.) To misconstrue 'de' narrowly would, in > my > opinion, be like understanding 'fr' as limited to Parisian French. I agree. I think all this discussion of "standard" language varieties misses the point. There is a certain lack of specificity to language codes in ISO 639 just as there is a deliberate lack of specificity in most language tag choices. Often the most useful tag for German is "de". In some cases one might need a "de-CH" or "de-DE". Rarely will a "de-qxx-Latn-CH-1984-x-duerst-martin-2008-06-04-mittwoch" be of any use whatsoever, except as an illustration of tag folly. Ultimately, this thread is really about where "dialect" ends and "language" begins--a distinction that is necessarily indistinct and judgmental. Sometimes the "standard" form of a language forms the peak in the bell-curve of a language's usage and distribution and sometimes it won't. So what? What's problematic here is the idea that someone might come along and say that any given variant flavor of German is "not German" because it isn't the standard form. At the same time, just about any language can be divided further and further. The question is the utility of a given division. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 11:43:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230E13A68A2; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:43:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104B53A6816 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:43:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.439 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.439 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.160, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TMnhGT9NRHsZ for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4324E3A68A2 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:43:34 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=cJnfAitX5pSP2K8pweTzlQIUIj0gkHApbuc2YDzjfkQVkAT7j9YTeNYVSHMcU30y; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.83.186] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K4KR0-0001yd-RO for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:43:39 -0400 Message-ID: <00b401c8c73c$2876d220$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com><008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><20080604152637.GD27433@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <002501c8c736$61cf5c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FD37@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:44:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b388b0995f8be7363e2f952ede2d817166350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.83.186 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard german (Was: Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:32 AM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Standard german (Was: Consensus call: extlang ... > What's problematic here is the idea that someone might come > along and say that any given variant flavor of German is > "not German" because it isn't the standard form. At the same > time, just about any language can be divided further and further. > The question is the utility of a given division. Agreed. Finishing the thought: Once there's agreement that it's useful to make a distinction, the next question is whether it's more useful to regard the newly recognized variant as being a variant or as being a distinct language, and whether this distinction should be reflected in the formation of the language tag. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 11:44:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 543A03A6BBC; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:44:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E27D3A6AD6 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:43:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.529 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.529 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.245, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kz85ppQiS+tW for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259103A6816 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K4KRN-0007A1-5T; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:44:01 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:44:01 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080605184401.GB4140@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <30b660a20806051047g45d5bb4el5da7c3b839be7a0f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806051047g45d5bb4el5da7c3b839be7a0f@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > A standard is not a magic wand. If we cause significant backwards > compatibility problems for implementations, the standard will simply be > ignored or worse yet, we'll get splintering. An example of such a failed > standard is XML 1.1, a story that many of us are familiar with. Even though > the standard was almost completely backwards compatible, because it was not > 100% backwards compatible, it failed utterly and completely. This is both OT and controversial, so I'll be brief, say this once, and then shut up. IMHO, the hypothetical backward compatibility issue was the excuse rather than the reason why XML 1.1 was rejected; the true reasons, insofar as they can be discovered, had more to do with fear, indifference, and NIH syndrome. > I don't think you realize the scale of the problems that can be caused by > backwards incompatibilities. In a moderately sized organization with large > amounts of code and data, to make a change from zh to zh-cmn (or cmn) could > cost many millions of dollars. The truely complicated part is coordinating > among many internal products plus thousands of vendors and API users so that > there are not breakages. You appear to have no conception of how complicated > this can be. And for a large organization, this is compounded many times. +1 to this and the rest. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan If a soldier is asked why he kills people who have done him no harm, or a terrorist why he kills innocent people with his bombs, they can always reply that war has been declared, and there are no innocent people in an enemy country in wartime. The answer is psychotic, but it is the answer that humanity has given to every act of aggression in history. --Northrop Frye _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 12:07:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78393A6CD8; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:07:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34D53A6B47 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:07:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.937, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PIZpU04OYexo for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WA4EHSOBE006.bigfish.com (outbound-wa4.frontbridge.com [216.32.181.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE703A6D52 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail221-wa4-R.bigfish.com (10.8.14.250) by WA4EHSOBE006.bigfish.com (10.8.40.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:05:30 +0000 Received: from mail221-wa4 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail221-wa4-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D661B9F852B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:05:30 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-75(zz542N1418M1432R98dR7efV1805M10d1Izzzz1033ILd6eM5a6ciz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail221-wa4 (MessageSwitch) id 1212692729733625_15137; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:05:29 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (mail8.fw-sd.sony.com [160.33.66.75]) by mail221-wa4.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99EAC87804D; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:05:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55J5Tlv002726; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:05:29 GMT Received: from ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com (ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.78]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55J5THt029087; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:05:29 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.74]) by ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.78]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:05:29 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: Peter Constable Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:05:26 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAACreuAAAIs4qA Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1359931372==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1359931372== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IHpoLWNtbiBvciBjbW4gU0hPVUxEIGJlIHVzZWQuIHpoIHdpbGwgcmVtYWlu IHZhbGlkIGFuZCBpbmNsdWRlcyBib3RoIE1hbmRhcmluIGFuZCBDYW50b25lc2UsIHNvIE1VU1Qg aXMgdG9vIHN0cm9uZy4NCg0KSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGlzIHRoZSBsYXN0IG9mIHRoZSBkaXNhZ3Jl ZW1lbnQuIE1hcmsgRGF2aXMgYmVsaWV2ZXMgInpoIiBTSE9VTEQgYmUgdXNlZC4gQ291bGQgd2Ug 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ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4263A6ABB for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:38:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7jPjOvJPOY4g for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43AA63A6B0B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:38:16 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,597,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="59977552" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Jun 2008 19:38:22 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55JcMCB032223 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:38:22 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:38:22 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "Broome, Karen" , Peter Constable Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:38:19 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAACreuAAAIs4qAAACOsOA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > I agree that zh-cmn or cmn SHOULD be used. zh will remain valid and > includes both Mandarin and Cantonese, so MUST is too strong. > > I think this is the last of the disagreement. Mark Davis believes > "zh" SHOULD be used. Could we straw poll that? > SHOULD be used for what? From what I've read Mark Davis believes that he MAY use 'zh' to mean Mandarin. We already have a "rough consensus": let's work on text instead. Here is what I have revised the draft-15 text to say on the matter: --
The Chinese ('zh') and Arabic ('ar') languages and the various sign languages ('sgn') have a long tradition of using specific primary language subtags, possibly coupled with various region subtags or as part of a registered grandfathered tag, to indicate the language. With the adoption of this document, specific ISO 639-3 assigned subtags became available to identify languages within these diverse language families or groupings. Other than the sign languages, which share a mode of communication rather than any linguistic heritage, this relationship is provided for in ISO 639-3 via a "macrolanguage" mapping. Other languages are encompassed by a macrolanguage and guidance on tagging these languages is provided below. For Arabic and Chinese, however, compatibility with existing tagging practices uses the extended language tag feature to allow tags consistent with user expectations in these language communities. Chinese ('zh') provides a useful illustration of this. Many different kinds of content have used tags beginning with the 'zh' subtag, with application specific meaning being associated with region codes, private-use sequences, or grandfathered registered values. This is because historically only the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' was available for forming language tags. However, the languages encompassed by the Chinese subtag are, in the main, not mutually intelligible when spoken. Written forms of these languages also show wide variation in form and usage and many of these languages are written in various contexts. Rather than require all Chinese content to be retagged, this document provides a special compatibility mechanism: the extended language subtag. Chinese languages encompassed by the 'zh' subtag are in the registry as both primary language subtags and as extended language subtags. For example, the subtag for Cantonese is 'yue'. Content in Cantonese might historically have used a tag such as "zh-HK" (since Cantonese is spoken commonly in Hong Kong), although that tag actually means any type of Chinese as used in Hong Kong. With the availability of ISO 639-3 codes in the registry, content in Cantonese SHOULD use a tag containing the 'yue' subtag. For example, a document written in the Traditional script might use a tag such as "yue-Hant" or "zh-yue-Hant-HK". Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the tag instead of using the more specific encompassed language subtag. For example, an application with large quantities of textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, even though the content could be more precisely be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin). Similarly, an application already using tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'arb' (Standard Arabic).
-- Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 12:43:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B718E3A6C82; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:43:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79DB13A68FE for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:43:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.191 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.191 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.358, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8HFLtMUxSUXY for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 502F83A65A5 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008157568.msg for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:53:04 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:53:04 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=104208a220=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:43:17 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Mark Davis'" References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <30b660a20806051047g45d5bb4el5da7c3b839be7a0f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:41:38 +0100 Message-ID: <16a301c8c744$2c211bd0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806051047g45d5bb4el5da7c3b839be7a0f@mail.gmail.com> thread-index: AcjHNNU/0nEDNRoNSuy/voBk2NDZGQACdHyg X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:53:06 +0100 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0065583810==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0065583810== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_16A4_01C8C74C.8DE583D0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_16A4_01C8C74C.8DE583D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark =20 I would like to understand the problem but first I need to see it... be patient with me. See inline comments... =20 >> A standard is not a magic wand. If we cause significant backwards compatibility problems for implementations, the standard will simply be ignored or worse yet, we'll get splintering. An example of such a failed standard is XML 1.1, a story that many of us are familiar with. Even = though the standard was almost completely backwards compatible, because it was = not 100% backwards compatible, it failed utterly and completely. =20 I am not sure how my position wrt 'zh' causes any backward compatibility problems for implementations. =20 >> I don't think you realize the scale of the problems that can be = caused by backwards incompatibilities. In a moderately sized organization with = large amounts of code and data, to make a change from zh to zh-cmn (or cmn) = could cost many millions of dollars. The truely complicated part is = coordinating among many internal products plus thousands of vendors and API users so = that there are not breakages. You appear to have no conception of how = complicated this can be. And for a large organization, this is compounded many = times. =20 I am sure that there are many documents that are coded 'zh' that are Mandarin but I am not saying that you or anyone else should go through = all your documents and re-tag them. What I am saying is that prior to the publication of RFC4646bis 'zh' was used to mean Chinese which included Mandarin and Cantonese. The dominant language encoded with 'zh' is = Mandarin so future matching scenarios would benefit from some sort of tag (as I suggested many moons ago) that would identify Mandarin as being the = dominant language within the 'zh' Macrolanguage. Henceforth all documents should = be encoded with 'zh-cmn'/'cmn'. I don't see the problem. Are you saying = that some organizations have tagged *ONLY* Mandarin with 'zh' and they have created their own tags for Cantonese etc. or not bothered to tag = Cantonese etc. at all? Historical implementations are not broken by this method = as I am not suggesting deprecating 'zh' and future implementations will = benefit from precision tagging IMHO.=20 >> Now, you may have no sympathy for such organizations, but consider = that if a company is faced with the choice of, say, spending - with *no* particular benefit to customers - large amounts of money for converting = "zh" to "zh-cmn", versus spending that same amount of money to support more minority languages, what decision do you think people should make? =20 As a business woman with a quarter of a century of experience behind me = in what standards cost in real terms (however big or small the company), I = will have every sympathy if you can give me a true to life *actual*/*factual* scenario where this is going to cost millions. As far as I can see companies/organizations can continue to use 'zh' as they do today but, = in addition, gradually they will see the use of 'zh-cmn' or 'cmn' = introduced with new applications and implementations. As ICT's/applications/protocols/implementations are ever changing and = software is often outofdate the minute it hits the streets I cannot see that this = is going to cause a problem for long. Basically (I feel) you are arguing = for 'zh' to mean Mandarin by the back door ('zh'!=3DMandarin). I am opposed = to this. I say again, I am not opposed to saying that the 'dominant' = language within 'zh' is Mandarin.=20 =20 >> If we in RFC 4646bis were to say that one MUST tag Mandarin with = zh-cmn (or cmn), that would be a massive backwards incompatible change from RFC 4646, inconsistent with the principle of never narrowing, and also inconsistent with ISO 639-1/2/3. Not to speak of the nonsensical = position of denying that Mandarin is Chinese. =20 Poppycock! But if you really feel so hot about it you can make it a = SHOULD or PREFERRED. =20 > Not to speak of the nonsensical position of denying that Mandarin is Chinese. =20 Who said that? =20 I am happy to be corrected. If I could clearly see that a change from = 'zh' to 'zh-cmn' or 'cmn' would cost industry millions I would be opposed to = it but I am not seeing that here (yet). I am not hearing this from the software developers in here. Instead I am seeing users like Karen = saying (somewhat) the reverse. =20 Debbie =20 =20 _____ =20 From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] = On Behalf Of Mark Davis Sent: 05 June 2008 18:48 To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Cc: Shawn Steele; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin > we should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the WG decide to go,=20 > MUST be used for all future tagging [of Mandarin]...=20 A bit more on this. (Karen, this one you can mark as a scree ;-) A standard is not a magic wand. If we cause significant backwards compatibility problems for implementations, the standard will simply be ignored or worse yet, we'll get splintering. An example of such a failed standard is XML 1.1, a story that many of us are familiar with. Even = though the standard was almost completely backwards compatible, because it was = not 100% backwards compatible, it failed utterly and completely. I don't think you realize the scale of the problems that can be caused = by backwards incompatibilities. In a moderately sized organization with = large amounts of code and data, to make a change from zh to zh-cmn (or cmn) = could cost many millions of dollars. The truely complicated part is = coordinating among many internal products plus thousands of vendors and API users so = that there are not breakages. You appear to have no conception of how = complicated this can be. And for a large organization, this is compounded many = times. Now, you may have no sympathy for such organizations, but consider that = if a company is faced with the choice of, say, spending - with *no* = particular benefit to customers - large amounts of money for converting "zh" to "zh-cmn", versus spending that same amount of money to support more = minority languages, what decision do you think people should make? If we in RFC 4646bis were to say that one MUST tag Mandarin with zh-cmn = (or cmn), that would be a massive backwards incompatible change from RFC = 4646, inconsistent with the principle of never narrowing, and also = inconsistent with ISO 639-1/2/3. Not to speak of the nonsensical position of denying = that Mandarin is Chinese. Mark 2008/6/5 Debbie Garside : I have said this probably too many times now but here goes again... 'zh' is chinese, any sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at the time = of tagging was not known to be any particular variety. 'zh' ! Mandarin and 'zh' ! Cantonese etc. 'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not correct! =20 As stated before, whilst we are all now perfectly aware that the = 'dominant' language within data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we should in no way encourage people to continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or Cantonese = or anything else other than Chinese unknown/unstated variety. It is my = opinion that we should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the = WG decide to go, MUST be used for all future tagging and that 'zh' will continue to be treated as Chinese all/any varieties. If you wish to = have an indicator in the file that clearly shows that a particular extlang is considered dominant within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy to do. =20 I feel we are going around in circles here. We have had a straw poll = and yet we seem to still be going down the same route over and over again. = 'zh' does not and should not and must not mean Mandarin! =20 best regards =20 Debbie _____ =20 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shawn Steele Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12 To: Mark Davis=20 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin And to be clear and address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to continue to use zh for Cantonese? =20 - Shawn _____ =20 From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On = Behalf Of Mark Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:22 PM To: Shawn Steele Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone objects to zh !=3D = Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that it is valid to tag = Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all, Chinese. What we worked out before = (and this is orthogonal to extlang vs nextlang) is to say that it is = recommended to use zh-cmn, but that for backwards compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh for Mandarin.=20 (More useful advice would be that because of backwards compatibility = people should expect that into the indefinite future, "zh" will predominate, = and should keep that in mind as in using these codes either for tagging = content or matching content. However, we can live with having impractical advice = in the spec as long as it is clear that people aren't forced to follow it = for compliance.) Just for information, we reran some analysis and in terms of web pages, = the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately 1/250000 of the number = of pages tagged with zh*. This is way down in the noise level: zh-cmn even occurs far, far less often than suspect, irregular or bogus tags like:=20 zh_tw zh_cn ch zh-hk zh-classical zh-tw-tw gbk zh-en zhs zh-cn-cn zht zh_hk zho zh-ch zh-cn-utf-8 zh_ch zht-tw zhtw zh-tw; xmlns =BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4 =D3=A2=CE=C4 ... (there are even more frequent completely bogus tags; I filtered these to ones that had something to do with Chinese). Mark On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele = wrote: I think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D Mandarin and that this = should be clear. I don't think anyone objects to that? I also believe that there's a general consensus that some applications = may want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and = that this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some applications = because of the historical use of zh. Is there any disagreement with this? There's been a lot of discussion = on this topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form = of "zh". I *think* we're all saying basically the same thing. Does anyone object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin? - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 Mark=20 --=20 Mark=20 ------=_NextPart_000_16A4_01C8C74C.8DE583D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mark
 
I=20 would like to understand the problem but first I need to see it... be = patient=20 with me.  See inline comments...
 
>> A standard is not = a magic=20 wand. If we cause significant backwards compatibility problems for=20 implementations, the standard will simply be ignored or worse yet, we'll = get=20 splintering. An example of such a failed standard is XML 1.1, a story = that many=20 of us are familiar with. Even though the standard was almost completely=20 backwards compatible, because it was not 100% backwards compatible, it = failed=20 utterly and completely.
 
I am=20 not sure how my position wrt 'zh' causes any backward compatibility = problems for=20 implementations.
 
>> I don't think you realize the = scale of=20 the problems that can be caused by backwards incompatibilities. In a = moderately=20 sized organization with large amounts of code and data, = to make a=20 change from zh to zh-cmn (or cmn) could cost many millions of = dollars.=20 The truely complicated part is coordinating among many internal products = plus=20 thousands of vendors and API users so that there are not breakages. You = appear=20 to have no conception of how complicated this can be. And for a large=20 organization, this is compounded many times.
 
I am sure that there are many = documents that are=20 coded 'zh' that are Mandarin but I am not saying that you or anyone else = should=20 go through all your documents and re-tag them.  What I am saying is = that=20 prior to the publication of RFC4646bis 'zh' was used to mean Chinese = which=20 included Mandarin and Cantonese. The dominant language encoded with = 'zh' is  Mandarin so future matching scenarios would = benefit from=20 some sort of tag (as I suggested many moons ago) that would identify = Mandarin as=20 being the dominant language within the 'zh' Macrolanguage.  = Henceforth all=20 documents should be encoded with 'zh-cmn'/'cmn'.  I don't see the=20 problem.  Are you saying that some organizations have tagged *ONLY* = Mandarin with 'zh' and they have created their own tags for Cantonese = etc. or=20 not bothered to tag Cantonese etc. at all?  Historical = implementations are=20 not broken by this method as I am not suggesting deprecating 'zh' and = future=20 implementations will benefit from precision tagging = IMHO. 

>> = Now, you=20 may have no sympathy for such organizations, but consider that if a = company=20 is faced with the choice of, say, spending - with *no* particular = benefit=20 to customers - large amounts of money for converting "zh" to "zh-cmn", = versus=20 spending that same amount of money to support more minority languages, = what=20 decision do you think people should make?
 
As a = business woman with=20 a quarter of a century of experience behind me in what standards cost in = real=20 terms (however big or small the company), I will have every sympathy if = you can=20 give me a true to life *actual*/*factual* scenario where this is going = to cost=20 millions.    As far as I can see companies/organizations = can=20 continue to use 'zh' as they do today but, in addition, gradually = they will=20 see the use of 'zh-cmn' or 'cmn' introduced with new applications and=20 implementations.  As ICT's/applications/protocols/implementations = are ever=20 changing and software is often outofdate the minute it hits the streets = I cannot=20 see that this is going to cause a problem for long.  Basically (I = feel) you=20 are arguing for 'zh' to mean Mandarin by the back door = ('zh'!=3DMandarin). I=20 am opposed to this.  I say again, I am not opposed to saying = that=20 the 'dominant' language within 'zh'=20 is Mandarin. 
 
>> If = we in RFC=20 4646bis were to say that one MUST tag Mandarin with zh-cmn (or cmn), = that would=20 be a massive backwards incompatible change from RFC 4646, inconsistent = with the=20 principle of never narrowing, and also inconsistent with ISO 639-1/2/3. = Not to=20 speak of the nonsensical position of denying that Mandarin is=20 Chinese.
 
Poppycock!  But if=20 you really feel so hot about it you can make it a SHOULD or=20 PREFERRED.
 
> Not to = speak of the=20 nonsensical position of denying that Mandarin is = Chinese.
 
Who said=20 that?
 
I am happy = to be=20 corrected.  If I could clearly see that a change from 'zh' to = 'zh-cmn' or=20 'cmn' would cost industry millions I would be opposed to it but I = am not=20 seeing that here (yet).  I am not hearing this from the software = developers=20 in here.  Instead I am seeing users like Karen saying (somewhat) = the=20 reverse.
 
Debbie
 
 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com=20 [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark=20 Davis
Sent: 05 June 2008 18:48
To:=20 debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
Cc: Shawn Steele; LTRU Working=20 Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D = Mandarin

> we should = clearly state=20 that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the WG decide to = go,
> MUST be = used for=20 all future tagging [of Mandarin]...

A bit more on this. (Karen, this one you can mark as a scree = ;-)

A standard is not a magic wand. If we cause significant backwards = compatibility problems for implementations, the standard will simply = be=20 ignored or worse yet, we'll get splintering. An example of such a = failed=20 standard is XML 1.1, a story that many of us are familiar with. Even = though=20 the standard was almost completely backwards compatible, because it = was not=20 100% backwards compatible, it failed utterly and completely.

I don't think you realize the scale of the problems that can = be=20 caused by backwards incompatibilities. In a moderately sized = organization=20 with large amounts of code and data, to make a change from = zh to=20 zh-cmn (or cmn) could cost many millions of dollars. The = truely=20 complicated part is coordinating among many internal products plus = thousands=20 of vendors and API users so that there are not breakages. You appear = to have=20 no conception of how complicated this can be. And for a large = organization,=20 this is compounded many times.

Now, you may have no sympathy for such organizations, but = consider that=20 if a company is faced with the choice of, say, spending - = with *no*=20 particular benefit to customers - large amounts of money for = converting "zh"=20 to "zh-cmn", versus spending that same amount of money to support more = minority languages, what decision do you think people should = make?

If we in RFC 4646bis were to say that one MUST tag Mandarin = with=20 zh-cmn (or cmn), that would be a massive backwards incompatible change = from=20 RFC 4646, inconsistent with the principle of never narrowing, and also = inconsistent with ISO 639-1/2/3. Not to speak of the nonsensical = position of=20 denying that Mandarin is Chinese.

Mark

2008/6/5 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk&g= t;:
I have=20 said this probably too many times now but here goes=20 again...
'zh' = is chinese, any=20 sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at the time of tagging was not = known=20 to be any particular variety.  'zh' ! Mandarin and 'zh' ! = Cantonese=20 etc.  'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not = correct!
 
As = stated before,=20 whilst we are all now perfectly aware that the 'dominant' = language=20 within data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we should in no way = encourage people=20 to continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or Cantonese or anything = else=20 other than Chinese unknown/unstated variety.  It is my opinion = that we=20 should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the = WG=20 decide to go, MUST be used for all future tagging and that 'zh' = will=20 continue to be treated as Chinese all/any varieties.  If you = wish to=20 have an indicator in the file that clearly shows that a particular = extlang=20 is considered dominant within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy to=20 do.
 
I feel = we are going=20 around in circles here.  We have had a straw poll and yet we = seem to=20 still be going down the same route over and over again. 'zh' does = not and=20 should not and must not mean Mandarin!
 
best=20 regards
 
Debbie

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Shawn=20 Steele
Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12
To: Mark Davis

Cc: LTRU Working = Group
Subject: Re:=20 [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

And to = be clear and=20 address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to continue to use = zh for=20 Cantonese?
 
-=20 Shawn
From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark = Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: = Wednesday,=20 June 04, 2008 6:22 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: = LTRU=20 Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D=20 Mandarin

I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone objects to zh = !=3D=20 Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that it is = valid to=20 tag Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all, = Chinese. What we=20 worked out before (and this is orthogonal to extlang vs nextlang) = is to=20 say that it is recommended to use zh-cmn, but that for backwards=20 compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh for = Mandarin.=20

(More useful advice would be that because of backwards = compatibility=20 people should expect that into the indefinite future, "zh" will=20 predominate, and should keep that in mind as in using these codes = either=20 for tagging content or matching content. However, we can live with = having=20 impractical advice in the spec as long as it is clear that people = aren't=20 forced to follow it for compliance.)

Just for information, we reran some analysis and in terms of = web=20 pages, the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately = 1/250000 of the number of pages = tagged with=20 zh*. This is way down in the noise level: zh-cmn even occurs far, = far less=20 often than suspect, irregular or bogus tags like:=20

zh_tw

zh_cn

ch

zh-hk

zh-classical

zh-tw-tw

gbk

zh-en

zhs

zh-cn-cn

zht

zh_hk

zho

zh-ch

zh-cn-utf-8

zh_ch

zht-tw

zhtw

zh-tw; xmlns

=BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4

=D3=A2=CE=C4

...


(there are even more frequent completely bogus tags; I = filtered these=20 to ones that had something to do with Chinese).

Mark

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn = Steele=20 <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:
I=20 think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D Mandarin and that = this should=20 be clear.  I don't think anyone objects to that?

I = also=20 believe that there's a general consensus that some applications = may want=20 to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and = that=20 this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some = applications=20 because of the historical use of zh.

Is there any = disagreement=20 with this?  There's been a lot of discussion on this topic, = and=20 that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form of "zh". =  I=20 *think* we're all saying basically the same thing.  Does = anyone=20 object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin?

-=20 Shawn
_______________________________________________
Ltru = mailing=20 list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


--
Mark=20 =


--
Mark =
------=_NextPart_000_16A4_01C8C74C.8DE583D0-- --===============0065583810== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0065583810==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 12:48:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B7A3A697E; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:48:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A803A6CC1 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.664 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.664 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F6gt+C9ocM6L for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D373A68FE for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:48:38 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,597,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="59988164" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Jun 2008 19:48:44 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55JmcpN009965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:48:44 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:48:13 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:48:10 -0700 Thread-Topic: draft-15 update... Thread-Index: AcjHRRVfqOG7McSnRL+xuAi3g/dhAA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE75@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] draft-15 update... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have updated Draft-15 on Inter-Locale with some changes. Thanks to several of you for editorial fixes sent offlist. http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-15.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-15.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-15.xml Addison (for the editors) Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 12:56:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30D53A6CF7; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:56:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9E03A68F1 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:56:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.161, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CkHbmGb8rzhQ for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74C23A6D33 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008157583.msg for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:05:50 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:05:50 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=104208a220=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:56:06 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Phillips, Addison'" , "'Broome, Karen'" , "'Peter Constable'" References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com><15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:54:27 +0100 Message-ID: <16a801c8c745$f6472e30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> thread-index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAACreuAAAIs4qAAACOsOAAAR0P0A== X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:05:50 +0100 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Addison wrote: > Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the > tag instead of using the more specific encompassed language > subtag. For example, an application with large quantities of > textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) > subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even > for new data, even though the content could be more precisely > be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin). Similarly, an application > already using tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag > might continue to use this more general subtag even for new > data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'arb' > (Standard Arabic). I would suggest the following changes: Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the tag instead of using the more specific encompassed language subtag. For example, an application with large quantities of textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, even though the content could be more precisely be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin) or 'yue' (Cantonese). Similarly, an application already using tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, which could be more precisely tagged with 'arb' (Standard Arabic) or any other subtag encompassed by the 'ar' Macrolanguage. Debbie > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Phillips, Addison > Sent: 05 June 2008 20:38 > To: Broome, Karen; Peter Constable > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin > > > > > I agree that zh-cmn or cmn SHOULD be used. zh will remain valid and > > includes both Mandarin and Cantonese, so MUST is too strong. > > > > I think this is the last of the disagreement. Mark Davis > believes "zh" > > SHOULD be used. Could we straw poll that? > > > > SHOULD be used for what? From what I've read Mark Davis > believes that he MAY use 'zh' to mean Mandarin. > > We already have a "rough consensus": let's work on text > instead. Here is what I have revised the draft-15 text to say > on the matter: > > -- >
anchor="choiceUsingExtlang"> > > The Chinese ('zh') and Arabic ('ar') languages and the > various sign languages ('sgn') have a long tradition of using > specific primary language subtags, possibly coupled with > various region subtags or as part of a registered > grandfathered tag, to indicate the language. With the > adoption of this document, specific ISO 639-3 assigned > subtags became available to identify languages within these > diverse language families or groupings. Other than the sign > languages, which share a mode of communication rather than > any linguistic heritage, this relationship is provided for in > ISO 639-3 via a "macrolanguage" mapping. Other languages are > encompassed by a macrolanguage and guidance on tagging these > languages is provided below. For Arabic and Chinese, however, > compatibility with existing tagging practices uses the > extended language tag feature to allow tags consistent with > user expectations in these language communities. > > Chinese ('zh') provides a useful illustration of this. > Many different kinds of content have used tags beginning > with the 'zh' subtag, with application specific meaning being > associated with region codes, private-use sequences, or > grandfathered registered values. This is because historically > only the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' was available for forming > language tags. However, the languages encompassed by the > Chinese subtag are, in the main, not mutually intelligible > when spoken. Written forms of these languages also show wide > variation in form and usage and many of these languages are > written in various contexts. > > Rather than require all Chinese content to be retagged, > this document provides a special compatibility mechanism: the > extended language subtag. Chinese languages encompassed by > the 'zh' subtag are in the registry as both primary language > subtags and as extended language subtags. For example, the > subtag for Cantonese is 'yue'. Content in Cantonese might > historically have used a tag such as "zh-HK" (since Cantonese > is spoken commonly in Hong Kong), although that tag actually > means any type of Chinese as used in Hong Kong. With the > availability of ISO 639-3 codes in the registry, content in > Cantonese SHOULD use a tag containing the 'yue' subtag. For > example, a document written in the Traditional script might > use a tag such as "yue-Hant" or "zh-yue-Hant-HK". > > Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the > tag instead of using the more specific encompassed language > subtag. For example, an application with large quantities of > textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) > subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even > for new data, even though the content could be more precisely > be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin). Similarly, an application > already using tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag > might continue to use this more general subtag even for new > data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'arb' > (Standard Arabic).
> > -- > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 13:17:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF4E3A6A24; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:17:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 520463A6B32 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:17:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.489 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.489 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i2LebTW0bSxH for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F503A6870 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:17:39 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:17:33 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:17:29 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Standard german (Was: Consensus call: extlang Thread-Index: AcjHNlHOgEZPW794RouqHizjgY5/DgAEmeEQ Message-ID: References: <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080604152637.GD27433@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <002501c8c736$61cf5c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <002501c8c736$61cf5c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard german (Was: Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Randy Presuhn > > Hold on. For Standard Arabic, the "proper" tag is "arb". But for > > Standard German, what could be used instead of "de" if we change "de" > > to mean "Any sort of German"? > > An appropriately registered subtag following de, if someone has a need > to make the distinction. (I don't see it as a change at all. Perhaps > it's > because I used to teach German, but for me "Standard German" is a > narrowly defined and somewhat artificial beast, not to be confused > with the welter of mutually intelligible varieties of German (i.e., > 'de') spoken all over the world.) For which, variant subtags sound just right. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 13:34:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A3EB28C10F; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:34:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2BEF28C109 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:34:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.491 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.108, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O2BGWGkDs7uN for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CCCE28C10F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:34:34 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:34:34 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:34:32 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAACreuAAAIs4qAAALRKYA= Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] > I agree that zh-cmn or cmn SHOULD be used. zh will remain valid and > includes both Mandarin and Cantonese, so MUST is too strong. > > I think this is the last of the disagreement. Mark Davis believes "zh" > SHOULD be used. Could we straw poll that? SHOULD be used for what? For any Mandarin? I can't speak for him, but I'd guess his position would be that, for some application scenarios, zh is what should be used for Mandarin, but that we shouldn't make that recommendation across the board -- and I'd agree with that. Every application has to evaluate what makes best sense. Where there is no reason not to do so and any potential need to differentiate, then I think Mandarin content should be tagged zh-cmn / cmn. Where there are particular reasons for doing so, I have no problem if implementers of some application decide that, for their purposes, all Mandarin content should be tagged zh. And if someone has no reason why not to tag zh-cmn / cmn but they believe they will never have a need to differentiate and decide they just want to tag their Mandarin content as zh, I don't care at all: it's their prerogative to tag Chinese content as Chinese. And if they decide to describe their content to users as "Mandarin", I might say, "Be careful that doesn't come back to bite you later on," but then leave them to take their own risks. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 13:46:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008DE28C13F; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:46:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36883A6D3A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:45:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.155, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JG06kSv3zjoS for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3ED28C292 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:45:00 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:44:59 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:44:58 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjHNNU/0nEDNRoNSuy/voBk2NDZGQACdHygAANDLpA= Message-ID: References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <30b660a20806051047g45d5bb4el5da7c3b839be7a0f@mail.gmail.com> <16a301c8c744$2c211bd0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: <16a301c8c744$2c211bd0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1420501673==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1420501673== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956333681891NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956333681891NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" 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Debbie: you suggested we say that Mandarin content MUST be tagged zh-cmn (or cmn). In terms of back compat, that really is a non-start= er. Of course, =A1=B0cmn=A1=B1 alone would obviously be so, but then you=A1=AFr= e not a proponent of that. But even =A1=B0zh-cmn=A1=B1 will not be an option for some existin= g implementations that simply have no way to accommodate that tag for any of = a variety of reasons (they don=A1=AFt recognize =A1=B0cmn=A1=B1, or they need= to use right-truncation in matching zh* and zh-Hant, etc.).

 

Saying MUST in this case would almost certainly be a last-ca= ll blocker for 4646bis: I and I=A1=AFm sure others here would make every effort to blo= ck that.

 

I don=A1=AFt think we=A1=AFre far from a consensus on reason= able recommendations that could be made. Asking for this MUST is definitely movi= ng away from any consensus, IMO.

 

 

Peter

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of De= bbie Garside
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 12:42 PM
To: 'Mark Davis'
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

 

Hi Mark

 

I would like to understand the problem but first I need to see it... be patie= nt with me.  See inline comments...

 

>> A standard is not a magic wand. If we cause significant backwards compatibility problems for implementations, the stand= ard will simply be ignored or worse yet, we'll get splintering. An example of s= uch a failed standard is XML 1.1, a story that many of us are familiar with. Ev= en though the standard was almost completely backwards compatible, because it = was not 100% backwards compatible, it failed utterly and completely.=

 

I am not sure how my position wrt 'zh' causes any backward compatibility problems for implementations.

 

= >> I don't think you realize the scale of the problems that can be caused by backwards incompatibilities. In a moderately sized organization with l= arge amounts of code and data, to make a change from zh to zh-cmn (or cmn) could cost many millions of dollars. The truely complicated part = is coordinating among many internal products plus thousands of vendors and API users so that there are not breakages. You appear to have no conception of = how complicated this can be. And for a large organization, this is compounded m= any times.

 

= I am sure that there are many documents that are coded 'zh' that are Mandarin bu= t I am not saying that you or anyone else should go through all your documents = and re-tag them.  What I am saying is that prior to the publication of RFC4646bis 'zh' was used to mean Chinese which included Mandarin and Cantonese. The dominant language encoded with 'zh' is  Mandarin so future matching scenarios would benefit from some sort of tag (as I suggested many moons ago) that would identify Mandarin as being the dominant language within the 'zh' Macrolanguage. = ; Henceforth all documents should be encoded with 'zh-cmn'/'cmn'.  I don= 't see the problem.  Are you saying that some organizations have tagged *ONLY* Mandarin with 'zh' and they have created their own tags for Cantones= e etc. or not bothered to tag Cantonese etc. at all?  Historical implementations are not broken by this method as I am not suggesting deprec= ating 'zh' and future implementations will benefit from precision tagging IMHO.&n= bsp;


>> Now, you may have no sympathy for such organizations, but consider that if a company is faced with the choice= of, say, spending - with *no* particular benefit to customers - large amou= nts of money for converting "zh" to "zh-cmn", versus spendi= ng that same amount of money to support more minority languages, what decision= do you think people should make?

 

As a business woman with a quarter of a century of experience behind me in what standards cost in real terms (however big or small the company), I will have every sympathy if you can give me a true to life *actual*/*factual* scenario where this is going to cost millions.    As far as I can see companies/organizations can continue to use 'zh' as they do today but, in addition, gradually they will see the use of 'zh-cmn' or 'cmn' introduced with new applications and implementations.  As ICT's/applications/protocols/implementations are = ever changing and software is often outofdate the minute it hits the streets I cannot see that this is going to cause a problem for long.  Basically = (I feel) you are arguing for 'zh' to mean Mandarin by the back door ('zh'!=3DMandarin). I am opposed to this.  I say again, I am= not opposed to saying that the 'dominant' language within 'zh' is Mandarin. 

 

>> If we in RFC 4646bis were to say that one MUST tag Mandarin with zh-cmn (or cmn), that would be a massive backwards incompatib= le change from RFC 4646, inconsistent with the principle of never narrowing, a= nd also inconsistent with ISO 639-1/2/3. Not to speak of the nonsensical posit= ion of denying that Mandarin is Chinese.

 

Poppycock!  But if you really feel so hot about it you can make it a SHOULD or PREFERRED.

 

> Not to speak of the nonsensical position of denying that Mandarin is Chinese.

 

Who said that?

 

I am happy to be corrected.  If I could clearly see that a change from 'zh' to 'zh-cmn' or 'cmn' would cost industry millions I would = be opposed to it but I am not seeing that here (yet).  I am not hear= ing this from the software developers in here.  Instead I am seeing users = like Karen saying (somewhat) the reverse.

 

Debbie

 

 

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: 05 June 2008 18:48
To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
Cc: Shawn Steele; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

> we should clearly state that zh-= cmn, or cmn if that is the way the WG decide to go,

> MUST be used for all future tagging [of Mandarin]...

 

A bit more on this. (Karen, this one you can mark as a= scree ;-)

 

A standard is not a magic wand. If we cause significan= t backwards compatibility problems for implementations, the standard will sim= ply be ignored or worse yet, we'll get splintering. An example of such a failed standard is XML 1.1, a story that many of us are familiar with. Even though= the standard was almost completely backwards compatible, because it was not 100= % backwards compatible, it failed utterly and completely.


I don't think you realize the scale of the problems that can be caused by backwards incompatibilities. In a moderately sized organization with l= arge amounts of code and data, to make a change from zh to zh-cmn (or cmn) could cost many millions of dollars. The truely complicated part = is coordinating among many internal products plus thousands of vendors and API users so that there are not breakages. You appear to have no conception of = how complicated this can be. And for a large organization, this is compounded m= any times.

 

Now, you may have no sympathy for such organizations, = but consider that if a company is faced with the choice of, say, spending - with *no* particular benefit to customers - large amounts o= f money for converting "zh" to "zh-cmn", versus spending = that same amount of money to support more minority languages, what decision do y= ou think people should make?


If we in RFC 4646bis were to say that one MUST tag Mandarin with zh-cmn (or cmn), that would be a massive backwards incompatible change from RFC 4646, inconsistent with the principle of never narrowing, and also inconsistent w= ith ISO 639-1/2/3. Not to speak of the nonsensical position of denying that Mandarin is Chinese.

 

Mark

 

2008/6/5 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>= :

I have said this probably too many times now but here goes agai= n...

'zh' is chinese, any sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at the time of taggin= g was not known to be any particular variety.  'zh' ! Mandarin and 'zh' = ! Cantonese etc.  'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not correct!

 

As stated before, whilst we are all now perfectly aware that the 'dominan= t' language within data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we should in no way encour= age people to continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or Cantonese or anything else ot= her than Chinese unknown/unstated variety.  It is my opinion that we shoul= d clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the WG decide to go, MUST be used for all future tagging and that 'zh' will continue to= be treated as Chinese all/any varieties.  If you wish to have an indicato= r in the file that clearly shows that a particular extlang is considered dominan= t within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy to do.

 

I feel we are going around in circles here.  We have had a straw poll an= d yet we seem to still be going down the same route over and over again. 'zh' does not and should not and must not mean Mandarin!

 

best regards

 

Debbie

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.o= rg [mailto:ltru-bou= nces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shawn Steele
Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12
To: Mark Davis


Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

 

And to be clear and address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to continue to use zh for Cantonese?

 

- Shawn

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mark.edward.d= avis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:22 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone object= s to zh !=3D Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that it is val= id to tag Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all, Chinese. What we wor= ked out before (and this is orthogonal to extlang vs nextlang) is to say that i= t is recommended to use zh-cmn, but that for backwards compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh for Mandarin.

 

(More useful advice would be that because of backwards compatibility people should expect that into the indefinite future, "zh" will predominate, and should keep that in mind as in using t= hese codes either for tagging content or matching content. However, we can live = with having impractical advice in the spec as long as it is clear that people ar= en't forced to follow it for compliance.)

 

Just for information, we reran some analysis and in te= rms of web pages, the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately 1/250000 of the number of pages tagged with zh*. This is way down in the noise level: zh-cmn even occurs fa= r, far less often than suspect, irregular or bogus tags like:

 

zh_tw

zh_cn

ch

zh-hk

zh-classical

zh-tw-tw

gbk

zh-en

zhs

zh-cn-cn

zht

zh_hk

zho

zh-ch

zh-cn-utf-8

zh_ch

zht-tw

zhtw

zh-tw; xmlns

=BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4

=D3=A2=CE=C4

...

<= o:p> 

(= there are even more frequent completely bogus tags; I filtered these to ones that= had something to do with Chinese).

<= o:p> 

M= ark

 

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@m= icrosoft.com> wrote:

I think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D Mandarin= and that this should be clear.  I don't think anyone objects to that?

I also believe that there's a general consensus that some applications may = want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and that this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some applications bec= ause of the historical use of zh.

Is there any disagreement with this?  There's been a lot of discussion= on this topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form of "zh".  I *think* we're all saying basically the same thing.  Does anyone object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin?

- Shawn
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark




--
Mark

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956333681891NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============1420501673== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1420501673==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 14:43:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC873A6B02; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:43:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D2083A6B02 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:43:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.273 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.273 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.326, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D+rL4bzKh5M3 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SG2EHSOBE002.bigfish.com (outbound-sin.frontbridge.com [207.46.51.80]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1DD3A69EC for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail223-sin-R.bigfish.com (10.3.40.3) by SG2EHSOBE002.bigfish.com (10.3.40.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:43:12 +0000 Received: from mail223-sin (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail223-sin-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4D812A83CD for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:43:12 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-20(zz1432R98dRzzzzz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail223-sin (MessageSwitch) id 1212702191213059_8975; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:43:11 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (mail8.fw-sd.sony.com [160.33.66.75]) by mail223-sin.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF86F358058; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:43:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55Lh9An027068; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:43:09 GMT Received: from ussdixhub21.spe.sony.com (ussdixhub21.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.76]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55Lh97r021456; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:43:09 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.74]) by ussdixhub21.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.76]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:42:48 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:42:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAACreuAAAIs4qAAALRKYAAAiDJ0A== Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter wrote: >> Karen wrote: > >> I agree that zh-cmn or cmn SHOULD be used. zh will remain valid >and >> includes both Mandarin and Cantonese, so MUST is too strong. >> >> I think this is the last of the disagreement. Mark Davis believes >"zh" >> SHOULD be used. Could we straw poll that? > >SHOULD be used for what? For any Mandarin? Yes, any Mandarin. We should not be making application-specific recommendations or suggesting useful hacks. We are making recommendations from the perspective of identifying languages. I believe best practice for identifying these languages -- now that ISO 639-3 is published and will be incorporated -- is to tag Mandarin as "zh-cmn" or "cmn" depending on what we decide on extlang. >Where there is no reason not to do so and any potential need to >differentiate, then I think Mandarin content should be tagged zh-cmn >/ cmn. If you tag your content as "zh" and I tag mine as "zh-cmn" because I need that specificity, the application that aggregates this content could have problems. Smart applications will need to handle both tags, whether ambiguous or not. But I think we should encourage a transition from the ambiguous tagging to more specific choices. This is important to the data in my industry, which uses a lot more Cantonese tagging than Mark's spiders can see. Increasingly this content is moving to the web and will be tagged. Realistically, many applications will continue to use "zh" variants and this is not wrong. It's just not very specific. Best practice is to be more specific in Mandarin tagging because of all the audio and video content that is flooding the web today. I don't think we should suggest any use of "zh" alone, though it would be OK to mention that the tag for Chinese languages "zh" remains valid, but should not be used moving forward for Mandarin or Cantonese tagging. Karen Broome _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 15:27:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198C03A690D; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:27:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4CE3A690D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:27:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.369 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.369 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.230, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1XkB6LMme2In for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0472F3A687F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m55MRrkZ014965; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:27:53 +0200 Message-ID: <48486869.1020500@malform.no> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:27:53 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Cc: "Broome, Karen" , "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison 2008-06-05 21.38: > --
anchor=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"> [...] > Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the > tag instead of using the more specific encompassed language > subtag. For example, an application with large quantities of > textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag > might continue to use this more general subtag even for new > data, even though the content could be more precisely be tagged > with 'cmn' (Mandarin). Similarly, an application already using > tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag might continue to > use this more general subtag even for new data, which could be > more precisely be tagged with 'arb' (Standard > Arabic).
I would like these guidelines, for when to avoid and when to = recommend the macrolanguage tag, to go in: When using a macrolanguage subtag to form the tag for an = encompassed language, one should be reluctant to translate its = meaning =96 in a user interface or similar =96 to the spesific name. = For example, if one wants to label Mandarin as "Chinese", then = 'zh' is fine. But if one wants to label Mandarin as "Mandarin", = then 'zh' is not appropriate for this. Using 'zh' while displaying = it as "Mandarin" could lead to compatibility problems and = confusion amongst consumers and endusers. Interfaces for choosing between two (or more) encompassed = languages of the same macrolanguage do wise in considering the = needs for neutrality and clearness before letting one of the = encompassed languages being distinguished from the others by the = use of the macrolanguage tag. For instance, look out for = macrolanguages whose name equals that of a nationality. However, the macrolanguage tags might still be suitable even in = a contexts with several encompassed languages. For example, if a = system is localized for each and everyone of the encompassed = langauges of a particular macrolangauge -- for example each of the = 13 encompassed Chinese languages -- the macrolangauge tag might be = reserved for resources which for some reason are not intended for = translation, but which still are intended for the users of all the = encompassed languages. Or, in a strictly monlinguaal, encompassed language system, for = example for Mandarin, the 'zh' tag could be reserved -- or open -- = for content which is not Mandarin, in order to allow coexistens of = Chinese resourceses which are not Mandarine and wihtout tagging = them as Mandarin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 15:33:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F153A69A6; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:33:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366203A67A6 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:33:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.004 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.004 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s2m8d4wXANYe for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9673A69A1 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so444823ywj.49 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:32:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=AgU4JRk5OGkcdg1JgX0VJeeppfSUm9i/5tPY3M/ohbI=; b=WTDd+ZJHX+KfD/R70ZUB148hI4/e2/KJGdmt2nT0vxACQYMQZikL67Kr3sFaFPYacU TpJhmvs0q9hguyazXD7o0H7/MeA1uMU5b1k77S46sIPD3G7VxfMezAqdAJ2Cjt31Cv5w hSkwLZaKECWiltYv9mbkIrdo1WV56RhD5j9QA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=eGXslio7DfML7QgjrgMDsndjAza7x0NNw/6ru5cgUgEyfh63xbdyuMjOV1EDNJMSOL HGuzpJwAUuau+p6TIGWdwj0FzZzJyv8fcUwgfci75jB7qt26PsUQYdL+V7U29kxEHgwy m3IfB0CRpRTVYVsNTiOT5fNLDClDjvMK0QrwE= Received: by 10.151.13.7 with SMTP id q7mr2587638ybi.39.1212705164534; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806051532o6f59752fmc8ce4a71808d52eb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:32:44 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: e5b9c9970a13b806 Cc: "Broome, Karen" , "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0261352242==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0261352242== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4533_15388944.1212705164604" ------=_Part_4533_15388944.1212705164604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That text looks like it represents what I think is the emerging rough consensus, and I agree that we should work on the text rather than at a theoretical level. I have a few minor points below. On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > > > I agree that zh-cmn or cmn SHOULD be used. zh will remain valid and > > includes both Mandarin and Cantonese, so MUST is too strong. > > > > I think this is the last of the disagreement. Mark Davis believes > > "zh" SHOULD be used. Could we straw poll that? > > > > SHOULD be used for what? From what I've read Mark Davis believes that he > MAY use 'zh' to mean Mandarin. Yes. > > > We already have a "rough consensus": let's work on text instead. Here is > what I have revised the draft-15 text to say on the matter: > > -- >
anchor="choiceUsingExtlang"> > > The Chinese ('zh') and Arabic ('ar') languages and the various sign > languages ('sgn') have a long tradition of using specific primary language > subtags, possibly coupled with various region subtags or as part of a > registered grandfathered tag, to indicate the language. With the adoption of > this document, specific ISO 639-3 assigned subtags became available to > identify languages within these diverse language families or groupings. > Other than the sign languages, which share a mode of communication rather > than any linguistic heritage, this relationship is provided for in ISO 639-3 > via a "macrolanguage" mapping. Other languages are encompassed by a > macrolanguage and guidance on tagging these languages is provided below. => For most languages encompassed by a macrolanguage, guidance ... > For Arabic and Chinese, however, compatibility with existing tagging > practices uses the extended language tag feature to allow tags consistent > with user expectations in these language communities. Did you mean to include sgn here also? > > > Chinese ('zh') provides a useful illustration of this. Many > different kinds of content have used tags beginning with the 'zh' subtag, > with application specific meaning being associated with region codes, > private-use sequences, or grandfathered registered values. This is because > historically only the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' was available for forming > language tags. However, the languages encompassed by the Chinese subtag are, > in the main, not mutually intelligible when spoken. Written forms of these > languages also show wide variation in form and usage and many of these > languages are written in various contexts. > > Rather than require all Chinese content to be retagged, this document > provides a special compatibility mechanism: the extended language subtag. > Chinese languages encompassed by the 'zh' subtag are in the registry as both > primary language subtags and as extended language subtags. For example, the > subtag for Cantonese is 'yue'. Content in Cantonese might historically have > used a tag such as "zh-HK" (since Cantonese is spoken commonly in Hong > Kong), although that tag actually means any type of Chinese as used in Hong > Kong. With the availability of ISO 639-3 codes in the registry, content in > Cantonese SHOULD use a tag containing the 'yue' subtag. For example, a > document written in the Traditional script might use a tag such as > "yue-Hant" or "zh-yue-Hant-HK". Add "Arabic and Sign Languages are treated similarly." > > > Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the tag instead of > using the more specific encompassed language subtag. For example, an > application with large quantities of textual data already using tags with > the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag > even for new data, even though the content could be more precisely be tagged > with 'cmn' (Mandarin). I'm ok with Debbie's addition of "or 'yue' (Cantonese)" > Similarly, an application already using tags that start with the 'ar' > (Arabic) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new > data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'arb' (Standard > Arabic).
I'm ok with Debbie's addition of "or any other subtag encompassed by the 'ar' Macrolanguage." > > -- > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_4533_15388944.1212705164604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That text looks like it represents what I think is the emerging rough consensus, and I agree that we should work on the text rather than at a theoretical level.

I have a few minor points below.

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> I agree that zh-cmn or cmn SHOULD be used. zh will remain valid and
> includes both Mandarin and Cantonese, so MUST is too strong.
>
> I think this is the last of the disagreement. Mark Davis believes
> "zh" SHOULD be used. Could we straw poll that?
>

SHOULD be used for what? From what I've read Mark Davis believes that he MAY use 'zh' to mean Mandarin.

Yes.
 


We already have a "rough consensus": let's work on text instead. Here is what I have revised the draft-15 text to say on the matter:

--
<section title="Using Extended Language Subtags" anchor="choiceUsingExtlang">

<t>The Chinese ('zh') and Arabic ('ar') languages and the various sign languages ('sgn') have a long tradition of using specific primary language subtags, possibly coupled with various region subtags or as part of a registered grandfathered tag, to indicate the language. With the adoption of this document, specific ISO 639-3 assigned subtags became available to identify languages within these diverse language families or groupings. Other than the sign languages, which share a mode of communication rather than any linguistic heritage, this relationship is provided for in ISO 639-3 via a "macrolanguage" mapping. Other languages are encompassed by a macrolanguage and guidance on tagging these languages is provided below.
 
=> For most languages encompassed by a macrolanguage, guidance ...
 
For Arabic and Chinese, however, compatibility with existing tagging practices uses the extended language tag feature to allow tags consistent with user expectations in these language communities.</t>
 Did you mean to include sgn here also? 


<t>Chinese ('zh') provides a useful illustration of this.       Many different kinds of content have used tags beginning with the 'zh' subtag, with application specific meaning being associated with region codes, private-use sequences, or grandfathered registered values. This is because historically only the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' was available for forming language tags. However, the languages encompassed by the Chinese subtag are, in the main, not mutually intelligible when spoken. Written forms of these languages also show wide variation in form and usage and many of these languages are written in various contexts.</t>

<t>Rather than require all Chinese content to be retagged, this document provides a special compatibility mechanism: the extended language subtag. Chinese languages encompassed by the 'zh' subtag are in the registry as both primary language subtags and as extended language subtags. For example, the subtag for Cantonese is 'yue'. Content in Cantonese might historically have used a tag such as "zh-HK" (since Cantonese is spoken commonly in Hong Kong), although that tag actually means any type of Chinese as used in Hong Kong. With the availability of ISO 639-3 codes in the registry, content in Cantonese SHOULD use a tag containing the 'yue' subtag. For example, a document written in the Traditional script might use a tag such as "yue-Hant" or "zh-yue-Hant-HK".</t>

Add "Arabic and Sign Languages are treated similarly."


<t>Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the tag instead of using the more specific encompassed language subtag. For example, an application with large quantities of textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, even though the content could be more precisely be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin).
 
I'm ok with Debbie's addition of "or 'yue' (Cantonese)" 
Similarly, an application already using tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'arb' (Standard Arabic).</t></section>
 
I'm ok with Debbie's addition of "or any other subtag encompassed by the 'ar'
Macrolanguage." 

--

Addison
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--
Mark
------=_Part_4533_15388944.1212705164604-- --===============0261352242== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0261352242==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 15:39:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B0F3A687F; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:39:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1EA43A67FF for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:39:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.301, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hLFhC0tAOmWB for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VA3EHSOBE002.bigfish.com (outbound-va3.frontbridge.com [216.32.180.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94ED3A687F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail172-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.6) by VA3EHSOBE002.bigfish.com (10.7.40.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:39:11 +0000 Received: from mail172-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail172-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C711166036B; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:39:11 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-10(zz1432Rzzzzz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail172-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1212705551199864_8366; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:39:11 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (mail8.fw-sd.sony.com [160.33.66.75]) by mail172-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B7C74806B; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:39:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55MdAS5003353; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:39:10 GMT Received: from ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com (ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.77]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55MdAlW005890; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:39:10 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.74]) by ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.77]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:38:49 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: Leif Halvard Silli Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:38:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjHW3DAdmEq2g6DQcux6w8nAsaRoQAAH9RQ Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48486869.1020500@malform.no> In-Reply-To: <48486869.1020500@malform.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Leif writes: >I would like these guidelines, for when to avoid and when to >recommend the macrolanguage tag, to go in: > >When using a macrolanguage subtag to form the tag for an >encompassed language, one should be reluctant to translate its >meaning - in a user interface or similar - to the spesific name. I don't think we want to get into specifying user interface names. We are specifying codes for the representation of languages, not names. >For example, if one wants to label Mandarin as "Chinese", then >'zh' is fine. But if one wants to label Mandarin as "Mandarin", >then 'zh' is not appropriate for this. Using 'zh' while displaying >it as "Mandarin" could lead to compatibility problems and >confusion amongst consumers and endusers. Label specification is out of scope. >Interfaces for choosing between two (or more) encompassed >languages of the same macrolanguage do wise in considering the >needs for neutrality and clearness before letting one of the >encompassed languages being distinguished from the others by the >use of the macrolanguage tag. For instance, look out for >macrolanguages whose name equals that of a nationality. Not sure this clarifies anything and also seems out of scope. >However, the macrolanguage tags might still be suitable even in >a contexts with several encompassed languages. For example, if a >system is localized for each and everyone of the encompassed >langauges of a particular macrolangauge -- for example each of the >13 encompassed Chinese languages -- the macrolangauge tag might be >reserved for resources which for some reason are not intended for >translation, but which still are intended for the users of all the >encompassed languages. Agree in principle, but not sure this really helpful. >Or, in a strictly monlinguaal, encompassed language system, for >example for Mandarin, the 'zh' tag could be reserved -- or open -- >for content which is not Mandarin, in order to allow coexistens of >Chinese resourceses which are not Mandarine and wihtout tagging >them as Mandarin. Don't think this is good advice. Karen _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 15:40:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 318D83A687F; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7DC3A687F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jMxFdAggJwQS for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4AC53A67FF for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so446419ywj.49 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:40:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=EANxuN8j8U+Gizsy2ZZE0dhLgOgt9rT/a9X1ryu9Xp4=; b=awUwKlDrv97CwehrI1gCIEqpLhDotegDgtI9E/0k8g/shx/AdVfASHBDvfYFSWso+w /g0H8qe76nWzB0YWloG0yz8PIrc4W+UN+NGE4vhysUhCD+AAcGrHUjjpyV4dcndqHZ9o /8DnqvF05gVd5aJmb/KLlhipXfZRDtEaEmqi4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=s14lL+1DmTFxUhOKe0eDhrfgU4TOK6SgxInbKt7PM8NRIIBpNQQXCbobmQXLWqLgXP k1/dPwbZJltEQSLQwAtlUZGtCeb3DweiT3SMyhdhWwqUGmScOS/x7mbxetYw8Ec9vvD1 G8zJrJAOYifN/rFwpDlaEIlg4BzDkHyeMvBiw= Received: by 10.151.112.4 with SMTP id p4mr2561235ybm.167.1212705653069; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20806051540v3a7eb93bq316070941995960f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:53 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1EEB09866D70AA48A93C0D9EB7237F0B014C231039@USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com> <008e01c8c5a7$1ba88b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080604152637.GD27433@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <002501c8c736$61cf5c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2fa2bd2891d90683 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard german (Was: Consensus call: extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1625223460==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1625223460== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4603_32068681.1212705653149" ------=_Part_4603_32068681.1212705653149 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Agreed. On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Peter Constable wrote: > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > Randy Presuhn > > > > > Hold on. For Standard Arabic, the "proper" tag is "arb". But for > > > Standard German, what could be used instead of "de" if we change "de" > > > to mean "Any sort of German"? > > > > An appropriately registered subtag following de, if someone has a need > > to make the distinction. (I don't see it as a change at all. Perhaps > > it's > > because I used to teach German, but for me "Standard German" is a > > narrowly defined and somewhat artificial beast, not to be confused > > with the welter of mutually intelligible varieties of German (i.e., > > 'de') spoken all over the world.) > > For which, variant subtags sound just right. > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Mark ------=_Part_4603_32068681.1212705653149 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Agreed.

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Randy Presuhn


> > Hold on. For Standard Arabic, the "proper" tag is "arb". But for
> > Standard German, what could be used instead of "de" if we change "de"
> > to mean "Any sort of German"?
>
> An appropriately registered subtag following de, if someone has a need
> to make the distinction.  (I don't see it as a change at all.  Perhaps
> it's
> because I used to teach German, but for me "Standard German" is a
> narrowly defined and somewhat artificial beast, not to be confused
> with the welter of mutually intelligible varieties of German (i.e.,
> 'de') spoken all over the world.)

For which, variant subtags sound just right.



Peter
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--
Mark ------=_Part_4603_32068681.1212705653149-- --===============1625223460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1625223460==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 15:41:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72F53A69A1; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:41:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18383A69A1 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:41:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.073 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.073 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.526, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QIIXmdOeE7tH for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3323A687F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:41:58 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:41:58 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "Phillips, Addison" , "Broome, Karen" , Peter Constable Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:41:54 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAACreuAAAIs4qAAACOsOAABxqEwA== Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Minor note, for the "even though the content could be more precisely be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin)." Could it also say Cantonese, "even though the content could be more precisely be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin) or 'yue' (Cantonese)" - Shawn -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phillips, Addison Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 12:38 PM To: Broome, Karen; Peter Constable Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin > > I agree that zh-cmn or cmn SHOULD be used. zh will remain valid and > includes both Mandarin and Cantonese, so MUST is too strong. > > I think this is the last of the disagreement. Mark Davis believes > "zh" SHOULD be used. Could we straw poll that? > SHOULD be used for what? From what I've read Mark Davis believes that he MAY use 'zh' to mean Mandarin. We already have a "rough consensus": let's work on text instead. Here is what I have revised the draft-15 text to say on the matter: --
The Chinese ('zh') and Arabic ('ar') languages and the various sign languages ('sgn') have a long tradition of using specific primary language subtags, possibly coupled with various region subtags or as part of a registered grandfathered tag, to indicate the language. With the adoption of this document, specific ISO 639-3 assigned subtags became available to identify languages within these diverse language families or groupings. Other than the sign languages, which share a mode of communication rather than any linguistic heritage, this relationship is provided for in ISO 639-3 via a "macrolanguage" mapping. Other languages are encompassed by a macrolanguage and guidance on tagging these languages is provided below. For Arabic and Chinese, however, compatibility with existing tagging practices uses the extended language tag feature to allow tags consistent with user expectations in these language communities. Chinese ('zh') provides a useful illustration of this. Many different kinds of content have used tags beginning with the 'zh' subtag, with application specific meaning being associated with region codes, private-use sequences, or grandfathered registered values. This is because historically only the macrolanguage subtag 'zh' was available for forming language tags. However, the languages encompassed by the Chinese subtag are, in the main, not mutually intelligible when spoken. Written forms of these languages also show wide variation in form and usage and many of these languages are written in various contexts. Rather than require all Chinese content to be retagged, this document provides a special compatibility mechanism: the extended language subtag. Chinese languages encompassed by the 'zh' subtag are in the registry as both primary language subtags and as extended language subtags. For example, the subtag for Cantonese is 'yue'. Content in Cantonese might historically have used a tag such as "zh-HK" (since Cantonese is spoken commonly in Hong Kong), although that tag actually means any type of Chinese as used in Hong Kong. With the availability of ISO 639-3 codes in the registry, content in Cantonese SHOULD use a tag containing the 'yue' subtag. For example, a document written in the Traditional script might use a tag such as "yue-Hant" or "zh-yue-Hant-HK". Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the tag instead of using the more specific encompassed language subtag. For example, an application with large quantities of textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, even though the content could be more precisely be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin). Similarly, an application already using tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even for new data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'arb' (Standard Arabic).
-- Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 15:44:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FA9E3A68B6; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:44:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B24B3A68B6 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:44:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.682, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VMrNrs2tPTn5 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361EE3A687F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:44:35 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:44:35 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" , 'Mark Davis' Importance: low Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:44:33 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAAGzXL8A== Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1694877650==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1694877650== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561BFE2CCE4NAEXMSGC116re_" 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I think I must=A1=AFve been confusing, I meant zh !=3D Manda= rin as in =A1=B0zh is NOT equal to Mandarin=A1=B1, which is what it sounds like you said J

 

It sounds like we mostly agree on Addison=A1=AFs latest text= .

 

- Shawn

 

From: Debbie Garsid= e [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:55 AM
To: Shawn Steele; 'Mark Davis'
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'
Subject: RE: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

 

I have said this probably too many times now but here goes agai= n...

'zh' is chinese, any sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at the time of taggin= g was not known to be any particular variety.  'zh' ! Mandarin and 'zh' = ! Cantonese etc.  'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not correct!

 

As stated before, whilst we are all now perfectly aware that the 'dominan= t' language within data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we should in no way encour= age people to continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or Cantonese or anything = else other than Chinese unknown/unstated variety.  It is my opinion that we should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the WG dec= ide to go, MUST be used for all future tagging and that 'zh' will continue= to be treated as Chinese all/any varieties.  If you wish to have an indic= ator in the file that clearly shows that a particular extlang is considered domi= nant within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy to do.

 

I feel we are going around in circles here.  We have had a straw poll an= d yet we seem to still be going down the same route over and over again. 'zh' does not and should not and must not mean Mandarin!

 

best regards

 

Debbie

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shawn Steele
Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12
To: Mark Davis
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

And to be clear and address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to continue to use zh for Cantonese?

 

- Shawn

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:22 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin

I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone object= s to zh !=3D Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that it is val= id to tag Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all, Chinese. What we wor= ked out before (and this is orthogonal to extlang vs nextlang) is to say that i= t is recommended to use zh-cmn, but that for backwards compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh for Mandarin.

 

(More useful advice would be that because of backwards compatibility people should expect that into the indefinite future, "zh" will predominate, and should keep that in mind as in using t= hese codes either for tagging content or matching content. However, we can live = with having impractical advice in the spec as long as it is clear that people ar= en't forced to follow it for compliance.)

 

Just for information, we reran some analysis and in te= rms of web pages, the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately 1/250000 of the number of pages tagged with zh*. This is way down in the noise level: zh-cmn even occurs fa= r, far less often than suspect, irregular or bogus tags like:

 

zh_= tw

zh_= cn

ch<= o:p>

zh-= hk

zh-= classical

zh-= tw-tw

gbk=

zh-= en

zhs=

zh-= cn-cn

zht=

zh_= hk

zho=

zh-= ch

zh-= cn-utf-8

zh_= ch

zht= -tw

zht= w

zh-= tw; xmlns

=BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4

=D3=A2=CE=C4

...=

<= o:p> 

(= there are even more frequent completely bogus tags; I filtered these to ones that= had something to do with Chinese).

<= o:p> 

M= ark

 

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com&g= t; wrote:

I think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D Mandarin= and that this should be clear.  I don't think anyone objects to that?

I also believe that there's a general consensus that some applications may = want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and that this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some applications bec= ause of the historical use of zh.

Is there any disagreement with this?  There's been a lot of discussion= on this topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form of "zh".  I *think* we're all saying basically the same thing.  Does anyone object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin?

- Shawn
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru




--
Mark

--_000_C9BF0238EED3634BA1866AEF14C7A9E561BFE2CCE4NAEXMSGC116re_-- --===============1694877650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1694877650==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 15:46:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 888D43A6815; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:46:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130B63A6815 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:46:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.224, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HUOZ2rYCFYMV for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F013A67CE for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m55MkdCM016615; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:46:39 +0200 Message-ID: <48486CCF.4020100@malform.no> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:46:39 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com><15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <16a801c8c745$f6472e30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: <16a801c8c745$f6472e30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> Cc: "'Broome, Karen'" , ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Debbie Garside 2008-06-05 21.54: > Addison wrote: > >> Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the >> tag instead of using the more specific encompassed language >> subtag. For example, an application with large quantities of >> textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) >> subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even Instead of "might continue etc" I propose "is not forbidden from continuing to use". When you first say that it "MAY", and then you say "might", then the "might" sounds much more inviting than the "MAY" does. (It is almost like a "feel free to".) Whereas "is not forbidden" sounds more like "if there is a good reason for it", while at the same time stating that there is nothing wrong with it. >> for new data, even though the content could be more precisely >> be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin). Similarly, an application >> already using tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag >> might continue to use this more general subtag even for new >> data, which could be more precisely be tagged with 'arb' >> (Standard Arabic). > > I would suggest the following changes: > > Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the > tag instead of using the more specific encompassed language > subtag. For example, an application with large quantities of > textual data already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) > subtag might continue to use this more general subtag even > for new data, even though the content could be more precisely > be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin) or 'yue' (Cantonese). Similarly, an > application > already using tags that start with the 'ar' (Arabic) subtag > might continue to use this more general subtag even for new > data, which could be more precisely tagged with 'arb' > (Standard Arabic) or any other subtag encompassed by the 'ar' > Macrolanguage. X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA633A68EF; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:54:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D703A68EF for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:53:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.32 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.32 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.279, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aHt1iRixFkYU for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WA4EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (outbound-wa4.frontbridge.com [216.32.181.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948F53A67A6 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail193-wa4-R.bigfish.com (10.8.14.254) by WA4EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (10.8.40.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:54:04 +0000 Received: from mail193-wa4 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail193-wa4-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60B3CB8346; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:54:04 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-18(zz542N2e57K1432R1805Mzzzz92fbnz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail193-wa4 (MessageSwitch) id 1212706444118677_9434; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:54:04 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (mail8.fw-sd.sony.com [160.33.66.75]) by mail193-wa4.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008E21278080; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:54:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55Ms3Cd010462; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:54:03 GMT Received: from ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com (ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.78]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55Ms34h016074; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:54:03 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.74]) by ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.78]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:54:03 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: "Phillips, Addison" , Peter Constable Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:54:01 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAACreuAAAIs4qAAACOsOAAB1778A== Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Could you summarize what the rough consensus is? I am not so sure we have this. We had one vote, but I don't think it answered all the questions below. As far as I can tell, Mark and I disagree on this point: Though Mark MAY choose to categorize his new works as "zh", I believe the draft should advise him that he SHOULD NOT do so. If we say yue is just as good as zh-yue, throw out the shortest tag rule and the idea that there are preferred tags for any given subtag. If there any synonymous preferred subtags, it means ISO 639-6 will be a significantly better solution for me. Karen >-----Original Message----- >From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] >We already have a "rough consensus": let's work on text instead. >Here is what I have revised the draft-15 text to say on the matter: > >-- >
anchor="choiceUsingExtlang"> > >The Chinese ('zh') and Arabic ('ar') languages and the various >sign languages ('sgn') have a long tradition of using specific >primary language subtags, possibly coupled with various region >subtags or as part of a registered grandfathered tag, to indicate >the language. With the adoption of this document, specific ISO 639-3 >assigned subtags became available to identify languages within these >diverse language families or groupings. Other than the sign >languages, which share a mode of communication rather than any >linguistic heritage, this relationship is provided for in ISO 639-3 >via a "macrolanguage" mapping. Other languages are encompassed by a >macrolanguage and guidance on tagging these languages is provided >below. For Arabic and Chinese, however, compatibility with existing >tagging practices uses the extended language tag feature to allow >tags consistent with user expectations in these language >communities. > >Chinese ('zh') provides a useful illustration of this. Many >different kinds of content have used tags beginning with the 'zh' >subtag, with application specific meaning being associated with >region codes, private-use sequences, or grandfathered registered >values. This is because historically only the macrolanguage subtag >'zh' was available for forming language tags. However, the languages >encompassed by the Chinese subtag are, in the main, not mutually >intelligible when spoken. Written forms of these languages also show >wide variation in form and usage and many of these languages are >written in various contexts. > >Rather than require all Chinese content to be retagged, this >document provides a special compatibility mechanism: the extended >language subtag. Chinese languages encompassed by the 'zh' subtag >are in the registry as both primary language subtags and as extended >language subtags. For example, the subtag for Cantonese is 'yue'. >Content in Cantonese might historically have used a tag such as "zh- >HK" (since Cantonese is spoken commonly in Hong Kong), although that >tag actually means any type of Chinese as used in Hong Kong. With >the availability of ISO 639-3 codes in the registry, content in >Cantonese SHOULD use a tag containing the 'yue' subtag. For example, >a document written in the Traditional script might use a tag such as >"yue-Hant" or "zh-yue-Hant-HK". > >Applications MAY use the macrolanguage subtag to form the tag >instead of using the more specific encompassed language subtag. For >example, an application with large quantities of textual data >already using tags with the 'zh' (Chinese) subtag might continue to >use this more general subtag even for new data, even though the >content could be more precisely be tagged with 'cmn' (Mandarin). >Similarly, an application already using tags that start with the >'ar' (Arabic) subtag might continue to use this more general subtag >even for new data, which could be more precisely be tagged with >'arb' (Standard Arabic).
> >-- > >Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 15:57:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3283A68EF; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:57:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD693A68EF for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.381 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.381 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.218, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i4SWC6P6Bc3K for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C253A6A5D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m55MuxW2017435; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:57:00 +0200 Message-ID: <48486F3C.4070306@malform.no> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:57:00 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Shawn Steele References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> In-Reply-To: Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org U2hhd24gU3RlZWxlIDIwMDgtMDYtMDYgMDAuNDQ6Cgo+IEkgdGhpbmsgSSBtdXN0oa92ZSBiZWVu IGNvbmZ1c2luZywgSSBtZWFudCB6aCAhPSBNYW5kYXJpbiBhcyBpbgo+IKGwemggaXMgTk9UIGVx dWFsIHRvIE1hbmRhcmluobEsIHdoaWNoIGlzIHdoYXQgaXQgc291bmRzIGxpa2UgeW91Cj4gc2Fp ZCA6KQoKSSBndWVzcyB6aCBpcyBlcXVhbCB0byBNYW5kYXJpbi4gQnV0IHRoYXQgaXQgaXMgYWxz byBlcXVhbCB0bwpDYW50b25lc2UuIEFuZCBhbHNvIGVxdWFsIHRvIGJvdGguCi0tIApsaApfX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcg bGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v bHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 16:00:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBCB3A6BAD; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:00:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DD33A6BAD for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:00:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.338 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.338 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.261, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SJfYMglcJeuz for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VA3EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (outbound-va3.frontbridge.com [216.32.180.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701CF3A6B62 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail30-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.6) by VA3EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (10.7.40.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:00:13 +0000 Received: from mail30-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail30-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99DAC1C080E3; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:00:13 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-55(zz542N1432R7efVzzzz1033ILd6eMz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail30-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1212706813263797_8446; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:00:13 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (mail8.fw-bc.sony.com [160.33.98.75]) by mail30-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CE01A80054; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:00:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55N0CFl022682; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:00:12 GMT Received: from ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com (ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.78]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55N0CxB019180; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:00:12 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.74]) by ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.78]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:00:12 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: Leif Halvard Silli Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:00:10 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjHX43XQkb0Uti3R9qEUvICYNsJ7wAACA8Q Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <48486F3C.4070306@malform.no> In-Reply-To: <48486F3C.4070306@malform.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Leif, zh is not equal to Mandarin. It is equal to "Chinese" which includes Mandarin, Cantonese, and other languages. zh may be used to tag Mandarin, but that doesn't make it synonymous or equal. Karen >-----Original Message----- >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >Of Leif Halvard Silli >Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:57 PM >To: Shawn Steele >Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' >Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin > >Shawn Steele 2008-06-06 00.44: > >> I think I must've been confusing, I meant zh != Mandarin as in >> "zh is NOT equal to Mandarin", which is what it sounds like you >> said :) > >I guess zh is equal to Mandarin. But that it is also equal to >Cantonese. And also equal to both. >-- >lh >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 16:14:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AFF3A6973; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DAB43A694F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YyiCqZP1DkTY for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF133A68B6 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:14 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,598,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="319592968" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Jun 2008 23:14:19 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55NEIHF004195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:14:18 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:18 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "Broome, Karen" , Peter Constable Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:16 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAACreuAAAIs4qAAACOsOAAB1778AAAVqYQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC301F9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > Could you summarize what the rough consensus is? I am not so sure > we have this. We had one vote, but I don't think it answered all > the questions below. As far as I can tell, Mark and I disagree on > this point: - extlangs: yes, but for 'zh', 'ar', and 'sgn' only - encompassed languages (i.e. cmn, yue, etc.) are both primary and extlangs - zh: allowed - cmn/zh-cmn: recommended > > Though Mark MAY choose to categorize his new works as "zh", I > believe the draft should advise him that he SHOULD NOT do so. Right this second the specific wording the draft is: -- The macrolanguage subtag MAY still be used to form the tag instead of the more specific encompassed language subtag. However, the encompassed subtag SHOULD be used to form the language tag. -- I think this is RFC 2119 equivalent to saying SHOULD NOT. (MAY is more permissive than SHOULD NOT, but SHOULD for the encompassed subtag means "MUST unless you have a Good Reason otherwise", aka "SHOULD NOT"). > > If we say yue is just as good as zh-yue, throw out the shortest tag > rule and the idea that there are preferred tags for any given > subtag. The "shortest tag" rule is not quite what I think you think it is. The best way to state it would always be: "use as short a tag as possible, but no shorter". In any case, (puts on editor's hat) please suggest textual modifications; please also refer to the complete context rather than isolated items (removes hat again). > If there any synonymous preferred subtags, it means ISO > 639-6 will be a significantly better solution for me. I don't know if ISO 639-6 is a better solution for you (or not). Mark's suggestion to allow both primary and extlang versions of the encompassed languages at the same time is (IMO) ugly, but seems to have support from others. My original suggestion was NOT to include the subtags in both forms. I'm open to either course Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 16:22:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9BD3A6877; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:22:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D893A6826 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:22:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.659 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.659 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AXYfJVimn2Og for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-6101.amazon.com [72.21.208.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301B93A67CE for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:22:36 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,598,1204502400"; d="scan'208,217";a="319594564" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-6101.iad6.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Jun 2008 23:22:43 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m55NMgk4016670 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:22:42 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:22:42 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:22:40 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjHXBVDh3CHKzaESLaEYGv73MH4cwABfjXg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC30219@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806051532o6f59752fmc8ce4a71808d52eb@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20806051532o6f59752fmc8ce4a71808d52eb@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Broome, Karen" , "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6463A68D8; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:04:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F9C3A69A6 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:04:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.387 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.387 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.212, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3X8abIOTXESZ for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A28C3A68B9 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5604fPI022683; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:04:44 +0200 Message-ID: <48487F1A.8010700@malform.no> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:04:42 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Broome, Karen" References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <48486F3C.4070306@malform.no> In-Reply-To: Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The macrolangauge thing is that two or more languages identify themselves the same way (plus a few other things). So, to split a hair, I consider Chinese a synonym for "All the (encompassed) Chinese languages". But I also consider it a synomym for Hakka alone. And Mandarin alone. And Cantonese alone. Each has a non-exclusive right to target itself with the word "Chinese". Broome, Karen 2008-06-06 01.00: > zh is not equal to Mandarin. It is equal to "Chinese" which > includes Mandarin, Cantonese, and other languages. zh may be > used to tag Mandarin, but that doesn't make it synonymous or > equal. >> Shawn Steele 2008-06-06 00.44: >> >>> I think I must've been confusing, I meant zh != Mandarin as >>> in "zh is NOT equal to Mandarin", which is what it sounds >>> like you said :) >> >> I guess zh is equal to Mandarin. But that it is also equal to >> Cantonese. And also equal to both. -- lh -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 17:07:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03EB3A69C7; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:07:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F973A68C9 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T+-eHuvLg6CB for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 298753A6AB2 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:06:05 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.41]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:06:05 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: Leif Halvard Silli , "Broome, Karen" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:06:02 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjHaPAHdX5uocWVRtqwokaHASib4QAACSBg Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <48486F3C.4070306@malform.no> <48487F1A.8010700@malform.no> In-Reply-To: <48487F1A.8010700@malform.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org You're describing a superset or set, not a synonym. -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Leif Halvard Silli Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:05 PM To: Broome, Karen Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin The macrolangauge thing is that two or more languages identify themselves the same way (plus a few other things). So, to split a hair, I consider Chinese a synonym for "All the (encompassed) Chinese languages". But I also consider it a synomym for Hakka alone. And Mandarin alone. And Cantonese alone. Each has a non-exclusive right to target itself with the word "Chinese". Broome, Karen 2008-06-06 01.00: > zh is not equal to Mandarin. It is equal to "Chinese" which > includes Mandarin, Cantonese, and other languages. zh may be > used to tag Mandarin, but that doesn't make it synonymous or > equal. >> Shawn Steele 2008-06-06 00.44: >> >>> I think I must've been confusing, I meant zh != Mandarin as >>> in "zh is NOT equal to Mandarin", which is what it sounds >>> like you said :) >> >> I guess zh is equal to Mandarin. But that it is also equal to >> Cantonese. And also equal to both. -- lh -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 17:29:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A023A6866; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:29:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E01C3A6866 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:29:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.392 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.392 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.207, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15tttg69Eflo for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDA13A67CE for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m560TswR024459 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:29:55 +0200 Message-ID: <48488503.8030401@malform.no> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:29:55 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <48486F3C.4070306@malform.no> <48487F1A.8010700@malform.no> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Perhaps a langauge collection can be described with set theory alone. But I don't think a macrolanguage situation can. Leif Shawn Steele 2008-06-06 02.06: > You're describing a superset or set, not a synonym. > > -----Original Message From: Leif Halvard Silli > The macrolangauge thing is that two or more languages identify > themselves the same way (plus a few other things). > > So, to split a hair, I consider Chinese a synonym for "All the > (encompassed) Chinese languages". But I also consider it a synomym > for Hakka alone. And Mandarin alone. And Cantonese alone. Each > has a non-exclusive right to target itself with the word "Chinese". > > Broome, Karen 2008-06-06 01.00: > >> zh is not equal to Mandarin. It is equal to "Chinese" which >> includes Mandarin, Cantonese, and other languages. zh may be >> used to tag Mandarin, but that doesn't make it synonymous or >> equal. > >>> Shawn Steele 2008-06-06 00.44: >>> >>>> I think I must've been confusing, I meant zh != Mandarin as >>>> in "zh is NOT equal to Mandarin", which is what it sounds >>>> like you said :) >>> >>> I guess zh is equal to Mandarin. But that it is also equal to >>> Cantonese. And also equal to both. -- lh _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 17:59:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D54F3A68EF; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:59:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91F763A68EF for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:59:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.202, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7nvJcotjmnuX for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BCC83A6885 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m560xTRg026505; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:59:29 +0200 Message-ID: <48488BF1.5090700@malform.no> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:59:29 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806051532o6f59752fmc8ce4a71808d52eb@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC30219@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC30219@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison 2008-06-06 01.22: > (editor had ON) > = > Rather than respond to all edit suggestions with lengthy > exchanges of a whole section, I have done a new edit, > incorporating many of the suggestions. To address Debbie=92s > comments, I did modify the text extensively to move the > normative text out of the Chinese example and to otherwise > clarify that we also mean Mandarin and other languages. > = > Note that I moved the =93encompassed languages=94 section above the > =93extlangs=94 section. This is a more natural flow, since the > extlangs currently are an exception to the encompassed > languages rule. > = > The documents are on inter-locale. Please send comments to the > list. For the below quote from section 4.1.1, add the word "tag" after = the word "macrolanguage" (two places) and also move the comma = after ('wuu') in place. Currently =ABFor example, Romanian ('ro') and Moldavian ('mo') do not share = a macrolanguage, [...] more closely related to each other than = Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu') , which do share a macrolanguage.=BB Should be =ABFor example, Romanian ('ro') and Moldavian ('mo') do not share = a macrolanguage **tag**, [...] more closely related to each other = than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu'), which do share a = macrolanguage **tag**.=BB -- = leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 18:15:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACCA73A6B85; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:15:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A6C3A6B62 for ; 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06 Jun 2008 01:23:51 -0000 Message-ID: <005701c8c773$fa5833b0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:23:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TGVpZiBIYWx2YXJkIFNpbGxpIDxsaHMgYXQgbWFsZm9ybSBkb3Qgbm8+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBXaGVu IHlvdSBmaXJzdCBzYXkgdGhhdCBpdCAiTUFZIiwgYW5kIHRoZW4geW91IHNheSAibWlnaHQiLCB0 aGVuIHRoZSAKPiAibWlnaHQiIHNvdW5kcyBtdWNoIG1vcmUgaW52aXRpbmcgdGhhbiB0aGUgIk1B WSIgZG9lcy4gKEl0IGlzIGFsbW9zdCAKPiBsaWtlIGEgImZlZWwgZnJlZSB0byIuKSBXaGVyZWFz ICJpcyBub3QgZm9yYmlkZGVuIiBzb3VuZHMgbW9yZSBsaWtlIAo+ICJpZiB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIGdv b2QgcmVhc29uIGZvciBpdCIsIHdoaWxlIGF0IHRoZSBzYW1lIHRpbWUgc3RhdGluZyAKPiB0aGF0 IHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vdGhpbmcgd3Jvbmcgd2l0aCBpdC4KCkF1eGlsaWFyeSB2ZXJicyBzdWNoIGFz IE1BWSwgd2hlbiB1c2VkIGluIFJGQ3MsIGhhdmUgYSBzcGVjaWZpYyAKbm9ybWF0aXZlIG1lYW5p bmcgYWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIFJGQyAyMTE5LCBlc3BlY2lhbGx5IHdoZW4gdGhleSBhcmUgCmNhcGl0 YWxpemVkIHRvIGVtcGhhc2l6ZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBSRkMgMjExOSBtZWFuaW5nIGlzIGludGVuZGVk IGluc3RlYWQgCm9mIHRoZSBub3JtYWwsIGZ1enp5IEVuZ2xpc2ggbWVhbmluZy4gIEl0J3MgYmVz dCBub3QgdG8gdHJ5IHRvIApzZWNvbmQtZ3Vlc3MgdGhlIG1lYW5pbmcgb2YgYSBjYXBpdGFsaXpl ZCBNQVkgaW4gYW4gSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnQuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENv bG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5v cmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApo dHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAg y4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUg bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 18:34:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1E13A6A42; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1513251111==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 18:35:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71FC63A6AB2; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:35:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90CA93A6AEA for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id luLTagwlLajL for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B6B3A6A42 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:35:38 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,598,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="49796919" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 06 Jun 2008 01:35:40 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m561ZcR7014457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:35:39 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:35:37 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Leif Halvard Silli , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:35:34 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjHccsSnEHSomClQLqqn906MvvIwgAA1vHg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC303D3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806051532o6f59752fmc8ce4a71808d52eb@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC30219@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48488BF1.5090700@malform.no> In-Reply-To: <48488BF1.5090700@malform.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > For the below quote from section 4.1.1, add the word "tag" after > the word "macrolanguage" (two places) and also move the comma > after ('wuu') in place. The word "tag" is wrong. What they do not share is a macrolanguage. The word "tag" is given a specific meaning, which does not apply in this case. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 19:04:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A6D28C199; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:04:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B5C28C180 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:04:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.443 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.443 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.156, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qHD8UlIyOmEy for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6643928C1D8 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:41:57 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:41:56 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:41:53 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAACreuAAAIs4qAAACOsOAAB1778AAFw8rg Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Broome, Karen [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] > If we say yue is just as good as zh-yue, throw out the shortest tag > rule and the idea that there are preferred tags for any given subtag. > If there any synonymous preferred subtags, it means ISO 639-6 will be a > significantly better solution for me. ISO 639-6 is not a better solution for you if it means you abandon working together here to form a consensus. You said in another message, > If you tag your content as "zh" and I tag mine as "zh-cmn" because I > need that specificity, the application that aggregates this content > could have problems. Smart applications will need to handle both tags... So, evidently interop between your applications and others' is a concern. There will be applications that will want to support A/V scenarios but that have a long history using legacy tags. Because they want to support A/V scenarios, those vendors will likely do work to "handle both tags" within a single system. If you decide to opt for a completely different system, that will only make it harder for them. Let's all see what are reasonable compromises we can make to reach a consensus. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 19:06:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FA93A68EF; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:06:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155DE3A67E5 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:06:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.446 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.446 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.153, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5iSu9aCJamud for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B921428C158 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:49:34 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:49:34 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:49:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjHcJqA4rpaCBF3Q4SJIue8hniJ2AABpLEw Message-ID: References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806051532o6f59752fmc8ce4a71808d52eb@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC30219@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48488BF1.5090700@malform.no> In-Reply-To: <48488BF1.5090700@malform.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Leif Halvard Silli > Currently > > a macrolanguage, [...] more closely related to each other than > Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu') , which do share a macrolanguage.> > > Should be > > a macrolanguage **tag**, [...] more closely related to each other > than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu'), which do share a > macrolanguage **tag**.> If you want to get precise, the categories 'Romanian' and 'Moldavian' do not have in common that there is a single macrolanguage category encompassing both, whereas for the categories 'Cantonese' and 'Wu' there is a single macrolanguage category 'Chinese' that encompasses both. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 19:07:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E6C3A6819; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:07:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7854D3A67A1 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:07:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id isyjhcM1qz21 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3213A677D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:07:34 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=pyEOmmb/YfYpE5DknRB3/sJ5FzOh497PQlJlfdTXozCIlBSW2TjP7Kv9MnfMPSuv; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.188.35] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K4RMk-00084B-07 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:07:42 -0400 Message-ID: <00d001c8c77a$2f82d4e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:08:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b34fb6d9186b07b96aeb86faeabf12f796350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.188.35 Subject: [Ltru] Section 2.2.2 exhaustive specification of possible prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... Some comments on the June 5th version of http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-15.txt I think the current text in section 2.2.2 looks pretty good. However, I'm a little concerned that we may be overspecifying things slightly, and would suggest deleting two sentences: Only languages that have an ISO 639-3 "macrolanguage" mapping equivalent to 'zh' (Chinese) or 'ar' (Arabic) or which are identified as sign languages have extended language subtags defined. This prefix MUST be one of these subtags: 'zh', 'ar', or 'sgn'. I am *not* suggesting that we add any other possible prefixes at this time, but am wary of baking a limitation into the spec that might somehow come back to bite us later. The decision as to whether there adequate "various historical reasons" to designate a prefix for future extended language subtags is something that should, in my opinion, be left to ietf-languages@iana.org and the Language Subtag Reviewer. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 19:09:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054623A680C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:09:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFECB3A680C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:09:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.197, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id teY3OWjwU8iZ for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCD23A67A1 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5629qnF031570; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 04:09:52 +0200 Message-ID: <48489C70.7020708@malform.no> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 04:09:52 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806051532o6f59752fmc8ce4a71808d52eb@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC30219@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48488BF1.5090700@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC303D3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC303D3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison 2008-06-06 03.35: >> >> For the below quote from section 4.1.1, add the word "tag" >> after the word "macrolanguage" (two places) and also move the >> comma after ('wuu') in place. > > > The word "tag" is wrong. What they do not share is a > macrolanguage. The word "tag" is given a specific meaning, > which does not apply in this case. Do you know if they share a macrolanguage? You only know what is registered. Also, human beings may share the same language, perhaps, but it sounds strange to me that two languages share another language. New proposal "For example, for Romanian ('ro') and Moldavian ('mo') no encompassing macrolanguage has been registered, though they are far more closely related to each other than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu') of the Chinese macrolanguage. -- lhs _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 19:25:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305CB3A683A; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:25:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3503A689F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:25:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.406 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.406 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.193, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WMHdvpzcjP0r for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405BD3A680C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m562PS7c032584 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 04:25:28 +0200 Message-ID: <4848A019.3000508@malform.no> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 04:25:29 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20806051532o6f59752fmc8ce4a71808d52eb@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC30219@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC30219@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24gMjAwOC0wNi0wNiAwMS4yMjoKCj4gTm90ZSB0aGF0IEkgbW92ZWQg dGhlIOKAnGVuY29tcGFzc2VkIGxhbmd1YWdlc+KAnSBzZWN0aW9uIGFib3ZlIHRoZQo+IOKAnGV4 dGxhbmdz4oCdIHNlY3Rpb24uIFRoaXMgaXMgYSBtb3JlIG5hdHVyYWwgZmxvdywgc2luY2UgdGhl Cj4gZXh0bGFuZ3MgY3VycmVudGx5IGFyZSBhbiBleGNlcHRpb24gdG8gdGhlIGVuY29tcGFzc2Vk Cj4gbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIHJ1bGUuCgpJbiBTZWN0aW9uIDQuMS4xLiBCZWNhdXNlICJlbmNvbXBhc3Nl ZCIgaXMgYWxzbyB1c2VkIGluIHNlY3Rpb24gCjQuMS4yIGluIHNsaWdodGx5IG90aGVyIG1lYW5p bmdzIChkZXNwaXRlIHRoZSAic3Blc2lmaWMgbWVhbmluZyIgCnRoYXQgeW91IC0tIEkgYW0gc3Vy ZSAtIHRyeSB0byBhdHRyaWJ1dGUgdG8gaXQpLCBwbGVhc2UgY2hhbmdlIHRoZSAKdGl0bGUgaW50 bwoKCSJUYWdzIGZvciBMYW5ndWFnZXMgRW5jb21wYXNzZWQgYnkgTWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZXMiCgoK SW4gdGhlIHNhbWUgc2VjdGlvbiwgcGxlYXNlIGNoYW5nZSB0aGlzIHRleHQsIMKrVGhlIG1hY3Jv bGFuZ3VhZ2VzIApDaGluZXNlICgnemgnKSBhbmQgQXJhYmljICgnYXInKSBhcmUgaGFuZGxlZCBk aWZmZXJlbnRseS4gU2VlIApTZWN0aW9uIDQuMS4yLsK7IGludG8gdGhpczoKCgnCq1RoZSBlbmNv bXBhc3NlZCBsYW5ndWFnZXMgb2YgQ2hpbmVzZSAoJ3poJykgYW5kIEFyYWJpYyAoJ2FyJykgCmFy ZSBoYW5kbGVkIGRpZmZlcmVudGx5LiBTZWUgU2VjdGlvbiA0LjEuMi4KCgpIYXZpbmcgc2FpZCB0 aGlzLCB0aGUgYWJvdmUgcGFyYWdyYXBoIHByZXR0eSBtdWNoIGhhbmdzIGluIHRoZSAKYWlyLiBE b2VzIGl0IHNheSB0aGF0IHRoZSBwcmV2aW91cyBwYXJhZ3JhcGggZG9lcyBub3QgY291bnQgZm9y IApDaGluZWVzIGFuZCBBcmFiaWM/IE9yIHRoYXQgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBwYXJncmFwaHMgZG9l cyBub3QgY291bnQgCmZvciBDaGluZXNlL0FyYWJpYz8gT3IgYm90aD8gIFRoZSBuZXh0IHBhcmEg Z29lcyBsaWtlIHRoaXM6CgoJwqtUaGUgbW9yZSBzcGVjaWZpYyBlbmNvbXBhc3NlZCBsYW5ndWFn ZSBzdWJ0YWcgU0hPVUxEIGJlIHVzZWQgdG8gCmZvcm0gdGhlIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZywgLi4uwrsK CkRvZXNuJ3QgdGhpcyBydWxlIGFwcGx5IHRvIENoaW5lc2UgYW5kIEFyYWJpYz8gSGVuYyBlSSB0 aGluayB0aGUgCmVudGlyZSBwYXJhZ3JhcGggcmVnYXJkaW5nICJoYW5kbGVkIGRpZmZlcm50bHkg LSBzZWUgU2VjdGlvbiAKNC4xLjIiIHNob3VsZCBiZSBpbiB0aGUgdmVyeSBzdGFydCBvZiA0LjEu MSBvciBpbiB0aGUgdmVyeSBlbmQuIApQcm9iYWJseSBpbiB0aGUgdmVyeSBzdGFydCwgYW5kIHBy b2JhYmx5IGl0IHNob3VsZCBub3Qgc2F5IAoiaGFuZGxlZCBkaWZmZXJlbnRseSIgYnV0IHJhdGhl ciBzb21ldGhpbmcgbW9yZSBzcGVzaWZpYyBhbmQgCm1lYW5pbmdmdWwgKHNpbmNlIG1hbnkgdGhp bmdzIGFyZSBub3QgZGlmZmVyZW50IGF0IGFsbCkuCgpPbiBhIGdlbmVyYWwgbm90ZSwgIHRoZSBl eHRsYW5nIHNlY3Rpb24gYW5kIGVuY29tcGFzc2VkIGxhbmcgCnNlY3Rpb24gY291bGQgaGF2ZSBi ZWVuIGJldHRlciBzZXduIHRvZ2V0aGVyLiBUaGVyZSBhcmUgdGhpbmdzIGluIAp0aGUgZXh0bGFu ZyBzZWN0aW9uIHdoaWNoIEkgdGhpbmsgYmVsb25ncyBpbiB0aGUgZW5jb21wYXNzZWQgCmxhbmdh dWdlIHNlY3Rpb24uCgpJIGhvcGUgdG8gY29tZSBiYWNrIHRvIHRoaXMuCi0tIApsZWlmIGhhbHZh cmQgc2lsbGkKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18K THRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 19:27:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E2F3A6992; 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Received: from [68.166.188.35] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K4RgL-0002M2-RM for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:27:58 -0400 Message-ID: <00d601c8c77d$06548160$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:28:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b348fbad8afbb06a746a327a85526bc901350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.188.35 Subject: [Ltru] section 4.1.1. on Tagging Encompassed Languages X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... Section 4.1.1 recommendation for using macrolanguage codes gives me heartburn, since it is phrased almost as an exception to the "tag wisely" principle, even it it isn't really. For example, consider this requirement: The more specific encompassed language subtag SHOULD be used to form the language tag, although either the macrolanguage's primary language subtag or the encompassed language's subtag MAY be used. This means, for example, tagging Plains Cree with 'crk' rather than 'cre' (Cree); and so forth. Whether the "SHOULD" would be followed (or not) is really no different from the situation with zh-cmn or ar-arb. But later in the section, there's one bit that I think is just plain wrong: The languages in the following table represent cases in which the macrolanguage subtag SHOULD be used in preference to the specified encompassed language subtag. This introduces unnecessary ambiguity. The decision whether the more or the less precise tag is appropriate will depend on the application domain, and we shouldn't be second-guessing here. In the spirit of our recent discussion, it seems that the cases listed in figure 7 are ones where the original extlang concept fits well, perhaps arguably better than in the case of Chinese. If we permitted kok, kok-knn, ms, ms-zsm, sw, sw-swh, uz, and uz-uzn, there'd be no need to treat these as exceptional cases at all, since the choice of the more- or less-specific tag would be a natural consequence of "tag wisely". Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 19:36:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE363A6AAB; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:36:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840BD3A6ABD for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:36:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.411 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.411 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.188, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jYT5ZX-MAiNF for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C81F3A6AAB for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m562aHN0001057; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 04:36:17 +0200 Message-ID: <4848A2A1.6000000@malform.no> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 04:36:17 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell References: <005701c8c773$fa5833b0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <005701c8c773$fa5833b0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell 2008-06-06 03.23: > Leif Halvard Silli wrote: > >> When you first say that it "MAY", and then you say "might", then the >> "might" sounds much more inviting than the "MAY" does. (It is almost >> like a "feel free to".) Whereas "is not forbidden" sounds more like >> "if there is a good reason for it", while at the same time stating >> that there is nothing wrong with it. > > Auxiliary verbs such as MAY, when used in RFCs, have a specific > normative meaning according to RFC 2119, especially when they are > capitalized to emphasize that the RFC 2119 meaning is intended instead > of the normal, fuzzy English meaning. It's best not to try to > second-guess the meaning of a capitalized MAY in an Internet-Draft. I know about RFC 2119. I stand by what I said about "is not forbidden" as I see the outcome of such a phrasing more inline with the meaning which MAY is used to convey here . -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 20:21:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7F1C3A6AD8; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6623A6ADC for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:21:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.528 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.528 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBcTAZk5ezkS for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B62C43A6AD8 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11620 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2008 03:21:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.22) with ESMTP; 06 Jun 2008 03:21:54 -0000 Message-ID: <007201c8c784$781d0f40$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <005301c8c772$c6cb23a0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20806051834q7fafefecr9f52cc3040bc6ff8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:21:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyB3cm90ZToKCj4gVGhhdCdzIHRoZSBuYXR1cmUgb2YgYSBjb21wcm9taXNlOyBi b3RoIHNpZGVzIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgYSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgCj4gcG9zaXRpb24gaXMgYmVzdCwgYnV0 IGJvdGggY2FuIGxpdmUgd2l0aCB0aGUgY29tcHJvbWlzZS4gVGhlICJoYXZlIAo+IGJvdGggYnV0 IGRlcHJlY2F0ZSBvbmUiIGhhcyB0aGUgYWR2YW50YWdlIG9mIG1ha2luZyB0aGUgcmVsYXRpb25z aGlwIAo+IGJldHdlZW4gdGhlbSBwcmVjaXNlIGFuZCB1bmVxdWl2b2NhbC4gQW55b25lIHdpdGgg YSBwcmVmZXJlbmNlIGZvciBvbmUgCj4gdnMgdGhlIG90aGVyIGNhbiBjb252ZXJ0IG9uIGlucHV0 IHdpdGggbm8gbG9zcyBvZiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi4KCkkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIGRlZ3JlZSB0byB3aGlj aCB0aGUgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnZ2luZyBjb21tdW5pdHkgLS0gd2hpY2ggbWF5IApiZSB0ZWNobmlj YWxseSBtaW5kZWQsIGJ1dCBub3QgbmVjZXNzYXJpbHkgc3RhbmRhcmRpemF0aW9uIGV4cGVydHMg LS0gIAp3aWxsIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgImRlcHJlY2F0ZWQiIGFzIHNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGV5IGFyZSBu b3QgZGlzY291cmFnZWQgZnJvbSAKdXNpbmcsIGJ1dCB3aGljaCBhcmUgc2ltcGx5IG5vcm1hbGl6 ZWQgYXdheSBieSBzb21lIHByb2Nlc3MsIGlzIApvdmVyZXN0aW1hdGVkLiAgSSB0aGluayB0aGVy ZSB3aWxsIGJlIGEgd2lkZXNwcmVhZCBiZWxpZWYgdGhhdCB0aGUgCmRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgZm9ybXMg bXVzdCBub3QgYmUgdXNlZC4KCj4gSSdtIHdpbGxpbmcgdG8gbGl2ZSBldmVuIHdpdGggZXh0bGFu ZyBiZWluZyB0aGUgbm9uLWRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgb25lLCAKPiBhbmQgSm9obiBpbmRpY2F0ZWQgdGhh dCBoZSBjb3VsZCBsaXZlIHdpdGggdGhhdC4gQXJlIHlvdSBzYXlpbmcgdGhhdCAKPiB5b3UgYXJl IHVuYWJsZSB0byBsaXZlIHdpdGggdGhhdD8KClN1cmUsIEkgY2FuIGxpdmUgd2l0aCBpdC4gIEkn bSBub3QgcGxhbm5pbmcgdG8gZmlsZSBhbiBhcHBlYWwgb3IgCm90aGVyd2lzZSBob2xkIHVwIFdH IHByb2dyZXNzLCBpZiB0aGF0J3Mgd2hhdCB5b3UgbWVhbi4gIFJGQyA0NjQ2YmlzIAp3aWxsIHN0 aWxsIGJlIGEgYmV0dGVyIHN0YW5kYXJkIHRoYW4gNDY0NiwgZGVzcGl0ZSB0aGlzIHVnbHkgd2Fy dCwganVzdCAKYXMgVW5pY29kZSBpcyBzdGlsbCBhIGdyZWF0IHN0YW5kYXJkIGRlc3BpdGUgaXRz IGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQtYXQtYmlydGggCmZlYXR1cmVzLgoKSWYgKG5lYXJseSkgZXZlcnlvbmUgZWxz ZSBjYW4gbGl2ZSB3aXRoIGl0LCBsZXQncyBkZWNpZGUgd2hpY2ggb25lIGlzIHRvIApiZSBwcmUt ZGVwcmVjYXRlZCBzbyBJIGNhbiBidWlsZCBhIGRyYWZ0LgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2 YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3 ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVy Lmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5n dWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f XwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 20:34:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6ED83A6AB2; 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06 Jun 2008 03:34:26 -0000 Message-ID: <009c01c8c786$37d8cf80$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <005701c8c773$fa5833b0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> <4848A2A1.6000000@malform.no> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:34:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TGVpZiBIYWx2YXJkIFNpbGxpIDxsaHMgYXQgbWFsZm9ybSBkb3Qgbm8+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBJIGtu b3cgYWJvdXQgUkZDIDIxMTkuIEkgc3RhbmQgYnkgd2hhdCBJIHNhaWQgYWJvdXQgImlzIG5vdCBm b3JiaWRkZW4iIAo+IGFzIEkgc2VlIHRoZSBvdXRjb21lIG9mIHN1Y2ggYSBwaHJhc2luZyBtb3Jl IGlubGluZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBtZWFuaW5nIAo+IHdoaWNoIE1BWSBpcyB1c2VkIHRvIGNvbnZleSBo ZXJlIC4KClNvcnJ5LCBJIG1pc3JlYWQgeW91ciBvcmlnaW5hbCBwb3N0IGFuZCB0aG91Z2h0IHlv dSB3ZXJlIHByb3Bvc2luZyBhIApyZXBsYWNlbWVudCBmb3IgdGhlIE1BWSwgaW5zdGVhZCBvZiB0 aGUgIm1pZ2h0IiB3aGljaCBmb2xsb3dzLgoKSSBkb24ndCB0aGluayB0aGlzIHBhc3NhZ2UgaXMg cGFydGljdWxhcmx5IGluIG5lZWQgb2YgcmV3b3JkaW5nLCBidXQgSSAKd291bGRuJ3QgcHJvdGVz dCBpZiBBZGRpc29uIGNob3NlIHRvIHVzZSB5b3VyIHJlcGxhY2VtZW50IHRleHQuCgotLQpEb3Vn IEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0 Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVy cy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 20:34:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98793A6B04; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:34:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18EB628C135 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:34:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.415 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.415 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.184, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DnJwvrz+8VPA for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakepoint.domeneshop.no (lakepoint.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A7B3A6AF4 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10013.local (cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no [84.208.108.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by lakepoint.domeneshop.no (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m563YPmU005002; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:34:26 +0200 Message-ID: <4848B042.7070504@malform.no> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 05:34:26 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Broome, Karen" References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48486869.1020500@malform.no> In-Reply-To: Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Broome, Karen 2008-06-06 00.38: > Leif writes: >> I would like these guidelines, for when to avoid and when to = >> recommend the macrolanguage tag, to go in: >> = >> When using a macrolanguage subtag to form the tag for an = >> encompassed language, one should be reluctant to translate >> its meaning - in a user interface or similar - to the >> spesific name. > = > I don't think we want to get into specifying user interface > names. We are specifying codes for the representation of > languages, not names. Should we be able to trust the tagging - or not? Users and developers expect that when a certain tag is used, then = a name which conveys the same meaning is also used. Or else, we = cannot trust the tagging. I thought you wanted to avoid zh =3D=3D Mandarin. In Mac OS X 10.4 they showed naked tags in the interface. In 10.5 = they translate the tags into names. Including the issue that 'no' = is being dispalyed as 'Bokm=E5l'. Oh, bad. Suddently the names are = none of our business anymore, you say? I don't buy that. One should tag in accordance with one one wants = to say. One should not twist the meaning of the tags. >> For example, if one wants to label Mandarin as "Chinese", >> then 'zh' is fine. But if one wants to label Mandarin as >> "Mandarin", then 'zh' is not appropriate for this. Using 'zh' >> while displaying it as "Mandarin" could lead to compatibility >> problems and confusion amongst consumers and endusers. > = > Label specification is out of scope. The word "label" was chosen to avoid repeating 'tag' over and = over. I guess this is why the RFC also uses 'label/labeling' = alltogeter 10 times. >> Interfaces for choosing between two (or more) encompassed = >> languages of the same macrolanguage do wise in considering >> the needs for neutrality and clearness before letting one of >> the encompassed languages being distinguished from the others >> by the use of the macrolanguage tag. For instance, look out >> for macrolanguages whose name equals that of a >> nationality. > = > Not sure this clarifies anything and also seems out of scope. Why out of scope? >> However, the macrolanguage tags might still be suitable >> even in a contexts with several encompassed languages. For >> example, if a system is localized for each and everyone of >> the encompassed langauges of a particular macrolangauge -- >> for example each of the 13 encompassed Chinese languages -- >> the macrolangauge tag might be reserved for resources which >> for some reason are not intended for translation, but which >> still are intended for the users of all the encompassed >> languages. > = > Agree in principle, but not sure this really helpful. This relates directly to the label thing I mentioed above. If = Apple had followed these rules, it would have really been helpful = for Norwegian. >> Or, in a strictly monlinguaal, encompassed language >> system, for example for Mandarin, the 'zh' tag could be >> reserved -- or open -- for content which is not Mandarin, in >> order to allow coexistens of Chinese resourceses which are >> not Mandarine and wihtout tagging them as Mandarin. > = > Don't think this is good advice. Ok. Perhaps not. -- = leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 20:37:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6478C28C135; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:37:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E68E28C109 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:37:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z49Lg3KBnicL for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout09.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout09-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9EA3A28C131 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13620 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2008 03:38:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout09-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.17) with ESMTP; 06 Jun 2008 03:38:00 -0000 Message-ID: <00a601c8c786$b7bed0a0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:37:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Section 2.2.2 exhaustive specification of possible prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IEkgYW0gKm5vdCogc3VnZ2VzdGluZyB0aGF0IHdlIGFkZCBhbnkgb3Ro ZXIgcG9zc2libGUgcHJlZml4ZXMgYXQgdGhpcyAKPiB0aW1lLCBidXQgYW0gd2FyeSBvZiBiYWtp bmcgYSBsaW1pdGF0aW9uIGludG8gdGhlIHNwZWMgdGhhdCBtaWdodCAKPiBzb21laG93IGNvbWUg YmFjayB0byBiaXRlIHVzIGxhdGVyLiAgVGhlIGRlY2lzaW9uIGFzIHRvIHdoZXRoZXIgdGhlcmUg Cj4gYWRlcXVhdGUgInZhcmlvdXMgaGlzdG9yaWNhbCByZWFzb25zIiB0byBkZXNpZ25hdGUgYSBw cmVmaXggZm9yIGZ1dHVyZSAKPiBleHRlbmRlZCBsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWdzIGlzIHNvbWV0aGlu ZyB0aGF0IHNob3VsZCwgaW4gbXkgb3BpbmlvbiwgYmUgCj4gbGVmdCB0byBpZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdl c0BpYW5hLm9yZyBhbmQgdGhlIExhbmd1YWdlIFN1YnRhZyBSZXZpZXdlci4KCkkgdGhpbmsgUmFu ZHkgaGFzIGEgZ29vZCBwb2ludCBoZXJlLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xv cmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3Jn Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0 cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuG CgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 20:54:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87343A6860; 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06 Jun 2008 03:54:09 -0000 Message-ID: <00b401c8c788$f8f84900$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:51:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TGVpZiBIYWx2YXJkIFNpbGxpIDxsaHMgYXQgbWFsZm9ybSBkb3Qgbm8+IHdyb3RlOgoKPj4gVGhl IHdvcmQgInRhZyIgaXMgd3JvbmcuIFdoYXQgdGhleSBkbyBub3Qgc2hhcmUgaXMgYSBtYWNyb2xh bmd1YWdlLiAKPj4gVGhlIHdvcmQgInRhZyIgaXMgZ2l2ZW4gYSBzcGVjaWZpYyBtZWFuaW5nLCB3 aGljaCBkb2VzIG5vdCBhcHBseSBpbiAKPj4gdGhpcyBjYXNlLgo+Cj4gRG8geW91IGtub3cgaWYg dGhleSBzaGFyZSBhIG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2U/IFlvdSBvbmx5IGtub3cgd2hhdCBpcyAKPiByZWdp c3RlcmVkLgoKQSBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlIGlzIHdoYXQgSVNPIDYzOS0zIHNheXMgaXQgaXMuICBU aGV5IGludmVudGVkIHRoZSB0ZXJtOyAKdGhleSBkZWZpbmUgdGhlIHNldCBvZiBtYWNyb2xhbmd1 YWdlczsgdGhleSBkZWNpZGUgd2hldGhlciBhIAptYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlIGlzIHRvIGJlIGNyZWF0 ZWQgb3IgZGVsZXRlZCBvciB3aGV0aGVyIGl0cyByb3N0ZXIgb2YgCmVuY29tcGFzc2VkIGxhbmd1 YWdlcyBpcyB0byBjaGFuZ2UuICBUaGUgbWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZSB0aGF0IGlzIG5vdCAKcmVnaXN0 ZXJlZCBpcyBub3QgdGhlIHRydWUgbWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZS4KCkJlc2lkZXMgYWxsIHRoYXQsIHRo ZSBjb2RlZCBlbnRpdHkgdGhhdCAneXVlJyBhbmQgJ3d1dScgc2hhcmUsIGFuZCAncm8nIAphbmQg J21vJyBkb24ndCwgaXNuJ3QgYSAidGFnIiBhbnl3YXkuICBJbiBJU08gNjM5LTMsIGl0J3MgYSAi Y29kZSAKZWxlbWVudCI7IGluIHRoZSBSZWdpc3RyeSwgaXQgd2lsbCBiZSBhICJNYWNyb2xhbmd1 YWdlIGZpZWxkIHZhbHVlLiIKCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVT QSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8v d3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cu YWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxp c3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0 cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 21:33:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948AC3A6AF8; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:33:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491A43A6AF8 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:33:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.149, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6UaP0ZRHL7pO for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8D83A6A7B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:33:57 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:33:57 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:33:53 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin Thread-Index: AcjHW3DAdmEq2g6DQcux6w8nAsaRoQAAH9RQAAyCihA= Message-ID: References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013AC2FE49@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48486869.1020500@malform.no> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Broome, Karen > >I would like these guidelines, for when to avoid and when to > >recommend the macrolanguage tag, to go in: > > > >When using a macrolanguage subtag to form the tag for an > >encompassed language, one should be reluctant to translate its > >meaning - in a user interface or similar - to the spesific name. > > I don't think we want to get into specifying user interface names. We > are specifying codes for the representation of languages, not names. I agree with Karen. We should try to impose limitations on implementers in terms of how they relate user-interface to underlying representations. If they want to do something bad, let their users and product-support team correct them. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 5 21:34:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C233A6AF8; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:34:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2267B3A6AF8 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:34:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.453 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.453 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.146, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EeIoxYO0hfgI for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9453A6A7B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:34:53 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:34:53 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:34:50 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Section 2.2.2 exhaustive specification of possible prefixes Thread-Index: AcjHhsCAr40c3LAxSKa4totwEelUsAAB9H3Q Message-ID: References: <00a601c8c786$b7bed0a0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <00a601c8c786$b7bed0a0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Section 2.2.2 exhaustive specification of possible prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Doug Ewell > > I am *not* suggesting that we add any other possible prefixes at this > > time, but am wary of baking a limitation into the spec that might > > somehow come back to bite us later. The decision as to whether there > > adequate "various historical reasons" to designate a prefix for > future > > extended language subtags is something that should, in my opinion, be > > left to ietf-languages@iana.org and the Language Subtag Reviewer. > > I think Randy has a good point here. +1 Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 6 00:38:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607E128C16A; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:38:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A573A6AB4 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:38:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.189 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6R0IWVFTdzCP for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1693A6B8F for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m567ctow004440 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:38:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3dc1_9ded337a_339b_11dd_9664_0014221f2a2d; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:38:55 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:40644) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:33:28 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080606161417.0a73a0e0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:19:31 +0900 To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: <00a601c8c786$b7bed0a0$e6f5e547@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Section 2.2.2 exhaustive specification ofpossible prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [technical hat on] I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but just want to think things through: Would this e.g. mean that if we finished 4646bis before there was some actual action on the Estonian/Vo"ro situation, and that situation would be solved by the RAs by moving 'et' to macrolanguage, then it would be up to ietf-languages to decide whether to use extlang or not in this case? In general, I'd all be for such flexibility, but I'm a bit worried that it a) would allow the RA to use macrolanguages in the abstract, without knowing what the impact on the actual coding would be (which might have them use macrolanguages more than necessary) and b) might lead to a repetition of the extlang/nextlang arguments on ietf-languages, without much of a chance for conclusion, and without even the concept of "rough" consensus. Regards, Martin. At 13:34 08/06/06, Peter Constable wrote: >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Doug Ewell > > >> > I am *not* suggesting that we add any other possible prefixes at this >> > time, but am wary of baking a limitation into the spec that might >> > somehow come back to bite us later. The decision as to whether there >> > adequate "various historical reasons" to designate a prefix for >> future >> > extended language subtags is something that should, in my opinion, be >> > left to ietf-languages@iana.org and the Language Subtag Reviewer. >> >> I think Randy has a good point here. > >+1 > > > >Peter >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 6 00:58:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068243A6A87; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:58:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60753A6910 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:58:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.07 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.07 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.237, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vnw7G7YcSjZJ for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08ED43A6A87 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008158193.msg for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:08:00 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:08:00 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=104389c35d=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:58:09 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Peter Constable'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com><15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110><30b660a20806051047g45d5bb4el5da7c3b839be7a0f@mail.gmail.com><16a301c8c744$2c211bd0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:56:27 +0100 Message-ID: <170e01c8c7aa$d3120380$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: thread-index: AcjHNNU/0nEDNRoNSuy/voBk2NDZGQACdHygAANDLpAAF8HY4A== X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:08:00 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1117311033==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1117311033== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_170F_01C8C7B3.34D66B80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_170F_01C8C7B3.34D66B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Peter. Yes I can see that a MUST on this would be too strong. =20 Best regards =20 Debbie _____ =20 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Constable Sent: 05 June 2008 21:45 To: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin Debbie: you suggested we say that Mandarin content MUST be tagged zh-cmn = (or cmn). In terms of back compat, that really is a non-starter. Of course, =A1=B0cmn=A1=B1 alone would obviously be so, but then you=A1=AFre not a = proponent of that. But even =A1=B0zh-cmn=A1=B1 will not be an option for some = existing implementations that simply have no way to accommodate that tag for any = of a variety of reasons (they don=A1=AFt recognize =A1=B0cmn=A1=B1, or they = need to use right-truncation in matching zh* and zh-Hant, etc.). =20 Saying MUST in this case would almost certainly be a last-call blocker = for 4646bis: I and I=A1=AFm sure others here would make every effort to = block that. =20 I don=A1=AFt think we=A1=AFre far from a consensus on reasonable = recommendations that could be made. Asking for this MUST is definitely moving away from = any consensus, IMO. =20 =20 Peter =20 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Debbie Garside Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 12:42 PM To: 'Mark Davis' Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin =20 Hi Mark =20 I would like to understand the problem but first I need to see it... be patient with me. See inline comments... =20 >> A standard is not a magic wand. If we cause significant backwards compatibility problems for implementations, the standard will simply be ignored or worse yet, we'll get splintering. An example of such a failed standard is XML 1.1, a story that many of us are familiar with. Even = though the standard was almost completely backwards compatible, because it was = not 100% backwards compatible, it failed utterly and completely. =20 I am not sure how my position wrt 'zh' causes any backward compatibility problems for implementations. =20 >> I don't think you realize the scale of the problems that can be = caused by backwards incompatibilities. In a moderately sized organization with = large amounts of code and data, to make a change from zh to zh-cmn (or cmn) = could cost many millions of dollars. The truely complicated part is = coordinating among many internal products plus thousands of vendors and API users so = that there are not breakages. You appear to have no conception of how = complicated this can be. And for a large organization, this is compounded many = times. =20 I am sure that there are many documents that are coded 'zh' that are Mandarin but I am not saying that you or anyone else should go through = all your documents and re-tag them. What I am saying is that prior to the publication of RFC4646bis 'zh' was used to mean Chinese which included Mandarin and Cantonese. The dominant language encoded with 'zh' is = Mandarin so future matching scenarios would benefit from some sort of tag (as I suggested many moons ago) that would identify Mandarin as being the = dominant language within the 'zh' Macrolanguage. Henceforth all documents should = be encoded with 'zh-cmn'/'cmn'. I don't see the problem. Are you saying = that some organizations have tagged *ONLY* Mandarin with 'zh' and they have created their own tags for Cantonese etc. or not bothered to tag = Cantonese etc. at all? Historical implementations are not broken by this method = as I am not suggesting deprecating 'zh' and future implementations will = benefit from precision tagging IMHO.=20 >> Now, you may have no sympathy for such organizations, but consider = that if a company is faced with the choice of, say, spending - with *no* particular benefit to customers - large amounts of money for converting = "zh" to "zh-cmn", versus spending that same amount of money to support more minority languages, what decision do you think people should make? =20 As a business woman with a quarter of a century of experience behind me = in what standards cost in real terms (however big or small the company), I = will have every sympathy if you can give me a true to life *actual*/*factual* scenario where this is going to cost millions. As far as I can see companies/organizations can continue to use 'zh' as they do today but, = in addition, gradually they will see the use of 'zh-cmn' or 'cmn' = introduced with new applications and implementations. As ICT's/applications/protocols/implementations are ever changing and = software is often outofdate the minute it hits the streets I cannot see that this = is going to cause a problem for long. Basically (I feel) you are arguing = for 'zh' to mean Mandarin by the back door ('zh'!=3DMandarin). I am opposed = to this. I say again, I am not opposed to saying that the 'dominant' = language within 'zh' is Mandarin.=20 =20 >> If we in RFC 4646bis were to say that one MUST tag Mandarin with = zh-cmn (or cmn), that would be a massive backwards incompatible change from RFC 4646, inconsistent with the principle of never narrowing, and also inconsistent with ISO 639-1/2/3. Not to speak of the nonsensical = position of denying that Mandarin is Chinese. =20 Poppycock! But if you really feel so hot about it you can make it a = SHOULD or PREFERRED. =20 > Not to speak of the nonsensical position of denying that Mandarin is Chinese. =20 Who said that? =20 I am happy to be corrected. If I could clearly see that a change from = 'zh' to 'zh-cmn' or 'cmn' would cost industry millions I would be opposed to = it but I am not seeing that here (yet). I am not hearing this from the software developers in here. Instead I am seeing users like Karen = saying (somewhat) the reverse. =20 Debbie =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] = On Behalf Of Mark Davis Sent: 05 June 2008 18:48 To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Cc: Shawn Steele; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin > we should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the WG decide to go,=20 > MUST be used for all future tagging [of Mandarin]...=20 =20 A bit more on this. (Karen, this one you can mark as a scree ;-) =20 A standard is not a magic wand. If we cause significant backwards compatibility problems for implementations, the standard will simply be ignored or worse yet, we'll get splintering. An example of such a failed standard is XML 1.1, a story that many of us are familiar with. Even = though the standard was almost completely backwards compatible, because it was = not 100% backwards compatible, it failed utterly and completely. I don't think you realize the scale of the problems that can be caused = by backwards incompatibilities. In a moderately sized organization with = large amounts of code and data, to make a change from zh to zh-cmn (or cmn) = could cost many millions of dollars. The truely complicated part is = coordinating among many internal products plus thousands of vendors and API users so = that there are not breakages. You appear to have no conception of how = complicated this can be. And for a large organization, this is compounded many = times. =20 Now, you may have no sympathy for such organizations, but consider that = if a company is faced with the choice of, say, spending - with *no* = particular benefit to customers - large amounts of money for converting "zh" to "zh-cmn", versus spending that same amount of money to support more = minority languages, what decision do you think people should make? If we in RFC 4646bis were to say that one MUST tag Mandarin with zh-cmn = (or cmn), that would be a massive backwards incompatible change from RFC = 4646, inconsistent with the principle of never narrowing, and also = inconsistent with ISO 639-1/2/3. Not to speak of the nonsensical position of denying = that Mandarin is Chinese. =20 Mark =20 2008/6/5 Debbie Garside : I have said this probably too many times now but here goes again... 'zh' is chinese, any sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at the time = of tagging was not known to be any particular variety. 'zh' ! Mandarin and 'zh' ! Cantonese etc. 'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not correct! =20 As stated before, whilst we are all now perfectly aware that the = 'dominant' language within data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we should in no way encourage people to continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or Cantonese = or anything else other than Chinese unknown/unstated variety. It is my = opinion that we should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the = WG decide to go, MUST be used for all future tagging and that 'zh' will continue to be treated as Chinese all/any varieties. If you wish to = have an indicator in the file that clearly shows that a particular extlang is considered dominant within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy to do. =20 I feel we are going around in circles here. We have had a straw poll = and yet we seem to still be going down the same route over and over again. = 'zh' does not and should not and must not mean Mandarin! =20 best regards =20 Debbie =20 _____ =20 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shawn Steele Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12 To: Mark Davis=20 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin =20 And to be clear and address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to continue to use zh for Cantonese? =20 - Shawn _____ =20 From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On = Behalf Of Mark Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:22 PM To: Shawn Steele Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone objects to zh !=3D = Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that it is valid to tag = Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all, Chinese. What we worked out before = (and this is orthogonal to extlang vs nextlang) is to say that it is = recommended to use zh-cmn, but that for backwards compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh for Mandarin.=20 =20 (More useful advice would be that because of backwards compatibility = people should expect that into the indefinite future, "zh" will predominate, = and should keep that in mind as in using these codes either for tagging = content or matching content. However, we can live with having impractical advice = in the spec as long as it is clear that people aren't forced to follow it = for compliance.) =20 Just for information, we reran some analysis and in terms of web pages, = the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately 1/250000 of the number = of pages tagged with zh*. This is way down in the noise level: zh-cmn even occurs far, far less often than suspect, irregular or bogus tags like:=20 =20 zh_tw zh_cn ch zh-hk zh-classical zh-tw-tw gbk zh-en zhs zh-cn-cn zht zh_hk zho zh-ch zh-cn-utf-8 zh_ch zht-tw zhtw zh-tw; xmlns =BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4 =D3=A2=CE=C4 ... =20 (there are even more frequent completely bogus tags; I filtered these to ones that had something to do with Chinese). =20 Mark =20 On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele = wrote: I think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D Mandarin and that this = should be clear. I don't think anyone objects to that? I also believe that there's a general consensus that some applications = may want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and = that this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some applications = because of the historical use of zh. Is there any disagreement with this? There's been a lot of discussion = on this topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form = of "zh". I *think* we're all saying basically the same thing. Does anyone object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin? - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 Mark=20 --=20 Mark=20 ------=_NextPart_000_170F_01C8C7B3.34D66B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Peter.  Yes I can see that a MUST = on this would=20 be too strong.
 
Best regards
 
Debbie

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter=20 Constable
Sent: 05 June 2008 21:45
To: 'LTRU = Working=20 Group'
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D = Mandarin

Debbie:=20 you suggested we say that Mandarin content MUST be tagged zh-cmn (or = cmn). In=20 terms of back compat, that really is a non-starter. Of course, = =A1=B0cmn=A1=B1 alone=20 would obviously be so, but then you=A1=AFre not a proponent of that. = But even=20 =A1=B0zh-cmn=A1=B1 will not be an option for some existing = implementations that simply=20 have no way to accommodate that tag for any of a variety of reasons = (they=20 don=A1=AFt recognize =A1=B0cmn=A1=B1, or they need to use = right-truncation in matching zh*=20 and zh-Hant, etc.).

 

Saying=20 MUST in this case would almost certainly be a last-call blocker for = 4646bis: I=20 and I=A1=AFm sure others here would make every effort to block=20 that.

 

I=20 don=A1=AFt think we=A1=AFre far from a consensus on reasonable = recommendations that=20 could be made. Asking for this MUST is definitely moving away from any = consensus, IMO.

 

 

Peter

 

From:=20 ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 Debbie Garside
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 12:42=20 PM
To: 'Mark Davis'
Cc: 'LTRU Working=20 Group'
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D=20 Mandarin

 

Hi=20 Mark

 

I would = like to=20 understand the problem but first I need to see it... be patient with = me. =20 See inline comments...

 

>> A standard is not a magic wand. If we = cause=20 significant backwards compatibility problems for implementations, the = standard=20 will simply be ignored or worse yet, we'll get splintering. An example = of such=20 a failed standard is XML 1.1, a story that many of us are familiar = with. Even=20 though the standard was almost completely backwards compatible, = because it was=20 not 100% backwards compatible, it failed utterly and=20 completely.

 

I am=20 not sure how my position wrt 'zh' causes any backward compatibility = problems=20 for implementations.

 

>> I don't = think you=20 realize the scale of the problems that can be caused by backwards=20 incompatibilities. In a moderately sized organization with large = amounts=20 of code and data, to make a change from zh to zh-cmn (or=20 cmn) could cost many millions of dollars. The truely complicated = part is=20 coordinating among many internal products plus thousands of vendors = and API=20 users so that there are not breakages. You appear to have no = conception of how=20 complicated this can be. And for a large organization, this is = compounded many=20 times.

 

I am=20 sure that there are many documents that are coded 'zh' that are = Mandarin but I=20 am not saying that you or anyone else should go through all your = documents and=20 re-tag them.  What I am saying is that prior to the publication = of=20 RFC4646bis 'zh' was used to mean Chinese which included Mandarin and=20 Cantonese. The dominant language encoded with=20 'zh' is  Mandarin so future matching scenarios would = benefit=20 from some sort of tag (as I suggested many moons ago) that would = identify=20 Mandarin as being the dominant language within the 'zh' = Macrolanguage. =20 Henceforth all documents should be encoded with 'zh-cmn'/'cmn'.  = I don't=20 see the problem.  Are you saying that some organizations have = tagged=20 *ONLY* Mandarin with 'zh' and they have created their own tags for = Cantonese=20 etc. or not bothered to tag Cantonese etc. at all?  Historical=20 implementations are not broken by this method as I am not suggesting=20 deprecating 'zh' and future implementations will benefit from = precision=20 tagging IMHO. 


>> Now, you may have no sympathy for such=20 organizations, but consider that if a company is faced with the = choice=20 of, say, spending - with *no* particular benefit to customers - = large=20 amounts of money for converting "zh" to "zh-cmn", versus spending that = same=20 amount of money to support more minority languages, what decision do = you think=20 people should make?

 

As a=20 business woman with a quarter of a century of experience behind me in = what=20 standards cost in real terms (however big or small the company), I = will have=20 every sympathy if you can give me a true to life *actual*/*factual* = scenario=20 where this is going to cost millions.    As far as I = can see=20 companies/organizations can continue to use 'zh' as they do today but, = in=20 addition, gradually they will see the use of 'zh-cmn' or 'cmn' = introduced=20 with new applications and implementations.  As=20 ICT's/applications/protocols/implementations are ever changing and = software is=20 often outofdate the minute it hits the streets I cannot see that this = is going=20 to cause a problem for long.  Basically (I feel) you are arguing = for 'zh'=20 to mean Mandarin by the back door ('zh'!=3DMandarin). I am = opposed to=20 this.  I say again, I am not opposed to saying that=20 the 'dominant' language within 'zh' = is Mandarin. 

 

>>=20 If we in RFC 4646bis were to say that one MUST tag Mandarin with = zh-cmn (or=20 cmn), that would be a massive backwards incompatible change from RFC = 4646,=20 inconsistent with the principle of never narrowing, and also = inconsistent with=20 ISO 639-1/2/3. Not to speak of the nonsensical position of denying = that=20 Mandarin is Chinese.

 

Poppycock! =20 But if you really feel so hot about it you can make it a SHOULD or=20 PREFERRED.

 

>=20 Not to speak of the nonsensical position of denying that Mandarin is=20 Chinese.

 

Who=20 said that?

 

I am=20 happy to be corrected.  If I could clearly see that a change from = 'zh' to=20 'zh-cmn' or 'cmn' would cost industry millions I would be opposed = to it=20 but I am not seeing that here (yet).  I am not hearing this from = the=20 software developers in here.  Instead I am seeing users like = Karen saying=20 (somewhat) the reverse.

 

Debbie

 

 

 

From:=20 mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] = On=20 Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: 05 June 2008 = 18:48
To:=20 debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
Cc: Shawn Steele; LTRU Working=20 Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D = Mandarin

> we should clearly state = that=20 zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the WG decide to = go,=20

> MUST be used for = all future=20 tagging [of Mandarin]...

 

A bit more on this. (Karen, this one you can = mark as a=20 scree ;-)

 

A standard is not a magic wand. If we cause = significant=20 backwards compatibility problems for implementations, the standard = will=20 simply be ignored or worse yet, we'll get splintering. An example of = such a=20 failed standard is XML 1.1, a story that many of us are familiar = with. Even=20 though the standard was almost completely backwards compatible, = because it=20 was not 100% backwards compatible, it failed utterly and=20 completely.


I don't think you realize the scale of the = problems=20 that can be caused by backwards incompatibilities. In a moderately = sized=20 organization with large amounts of code and data, to make = a change=20 from zh to zh-cmn (or cmn) could cost many millions of = dollars.=20 The truely complicated part is coordinating among many internal = products=20 plus thousands of vendors and API users so that there are not = breakages. You=20 appear to have no conception of how complicated this can be. And for = a large=20 organization, this is compounded many times.

 

Now, you may have no sympathy for such = organizations, but=20 consider that if a company is faced with the choice of, say,=20 spending - with *no* particular benefit to customers - large = amounts of=20 money for converting "zh" to "zh-cmn", versus spending that same = amount of=20 money to support more minority languages, what decision do you think = people=20 should make?


If we in RFC 4646bis were to say that one = MUST tag=20 Mandarin with zh-cmn (or cmn), that would be a massive backwards=20 incompatible change from RFC 4646, inconsistent with the principle = of never=20 narrowing, and also inconsistent with ISO 639-1/2/3. Not to speak of = the=20 nonsensical position of denying that Mandarin is=20 Chinese.

 

Mark

 

2008/6/5 Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk&g= t;:

I=20 have said this probably too many times now but here goes=20 again...

'zh' is = chinese,=20 any sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at the time of tagging was = not=20 known to be any particular variety.  'zh' ! Mandarin and 'zh' ! = Cantonese etc.  'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not=20 correct!

 

As = stated before,=20 whilst we are all now perfectly aware that the 'dominant' = language=20 within data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we should in no way = encourage people=20 to continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or Cantonese or anything = else=20 other than Chinese unknown/unstated variety.  It is my opinion = that we=20 should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the = WG=20 decide to go, MUST be used for all future tagging and that 'zh' = will=20 continue to be treated as Chinese all/any varieties.  If you = wish to=20 have an indicator in the file that clearly shows that a particular = extlang=20 is considered dominant within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy to=20 do.

 

I feel = we are=20 going around in circles here.  We have had a straw poll and yet = we seem=20 to still be going down the same route over and over again. 'zh' does = not and=20 should not and must not mean Mandarin!

 

best=20 regards

 

Debbie

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Shawn=20 Steele
Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12
To: Mark Davis =


Cc:=20 LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D=20 Mandarin

 

And=20 to be clear and address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to = continue to use zh for Cantonese?

 

-=20 Shawn

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark = Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: = Wednesday,=20 June 04, 2008 6:22 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: = LTRU=20 Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D=20 Mandarin

I agree with what you say. I don't think = anyone objects=20 to zh !=3D Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor = that it is=20 valid to tag Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all,=20 Chinese. What we worked out before (and this is orthogonal to = extlang=20 vs nextlang) is to say that it is recommended to use zh-cmn, but = that for=20 backwards compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh = for=20 Mandarin.

 

(More useful advice would be that because of = backwards=20 compatibility people should expect that into the indefinite = future, "zh"=20 will predominate, and should keep that in mind as in using these = codes=20 either for tagging content or matching content. However, we can = live with=20 having impractical advice in the spec as long as it is clear that = people=20 aren't forced to follow it for compliance.)

 

Just for information, we reran some analysis = and in=20 terms of web pages, the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is = approximately=20 1/250000 of the=20 number of pages tagged with zh*. This is way down in the noise = level:=20 zh-cmn even occurs far, far less often than suspect, irregular or = bogus=20 tags like:

 

zh_tw

zh_cn

ch

zh-hk

zh-classical

zh-tw-tw

gbk

zh-en

zhs

zh-cn-cn

zht

zh_hk

zho

zh-ch

zh-cn-utf-8

zh_ch

zht-tw

zhtw

zh-tw;=20 xmlns

=BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4

=D3=A2=CE=C4

...

 

(there are even = more=20 frequent completely bogus tags; I filtered these to ones that had=20 something to do with Chinese).

 

Mark

 

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele = <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> = wrote:

I think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D = Mandarin=20 and that this should be clear.  I don't think anyone objects = to=20 that?

I also believe that there's a general consensus that = some=20 applications may want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin = (or=20 Cantonese), and that this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful = to some=20 applications because of the historical use of zh.

Is there = any=20 disagreement with this?  There's been a lot of discussion on = this=20 topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form = of "zh".=20  I *think* we're all saying basically the same thing. =  Does=20 anyone object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin?

-=20 Shawn
_______________________________________________
Ltru = mailing=20 list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru=




--
Mark=20 =




--
Mark=20 =

------=_NextPart_000_170F_01C8C7B3.34D66B80-- --===============1117311033== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1117311033==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 6 01:04:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08433A69B5; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:04:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388333A6B56 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:04:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.49 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.316, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY=2.696] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d7E1VpD4XAFA for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F683A69B5 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m567cs1H004426 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:38:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3dab_9d3d92bc_339b_11dd_85bc_0014221f2a2d; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:38:54 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:40644) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:33:26 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080606155230.09ff60e0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:54:47 +0900 To: Peter Constable , "'LTRU Working Group'" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: <95616C5245684E28948A8BE9F1AFA7C1@streamserve.com> <48458AEC.1030503@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20080604152913.08794ec0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20080605100549.0a3d2a00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 00:04 08/06/06, Peter Constable wrote: >So, you're saying this: if we go with extlang across the board, re-scoping >et would be best; Best, or at least not a serious problem. >but if we don't go with extlang, then narrowing et by >"chipping off" V$B%F%*(Bro would be best. Is that right? Yes, or at least highly preferable to re-scoping. Mind you, the best thing would be if we could somewhat magically get a nice hierarchy that pleased everybody, and we could automatically retag all content whenever we were forced to change something in the tagging scheme. But we know that's just dreaming :-(. Regards, Martin. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] >> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:08 PM >> To: Peter Constable; 'LTRU Working Group' >> Subject: RE: [Ltru] heads up: Estonian >> >> At 04:05 08/06/05, Peter Constable wrote: >> >> From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] >> > >> > >> >> [technical hat on] >> >> >> >> I'm also leaning towards recommending to not split up et, >> >> the same way others have recommended on this list. >> > >> >IIUC, you're saying you lean in favour of re-scoping et as a >> macrolanguage >> >and adding two (or more) new IDs for encompassed varieties, including >> V#$B%((Bo >> >and (presumably) Standard Estonian -- is that right? >> >> No, I'm saying that I'd be okay with this if I were really sure >> that we'd end up with extlangs (not only for zh). As I'm not totally >> sure about that, I think the damage is smaller if you just introduce >> a new code for Vo"ro, and (as you call it) narrow the denomination 'et', >> without introducing a macrolanguage. >> >> Regards, Martin. >> >> >> >> #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University >> #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp >> mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 6 01:31:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387563A6B10; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:31:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008843A6B8F for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.124 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.124 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.976, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZFjILAifnoN6 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08EE23A691E for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008158356.msg for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:40:49 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:40:49 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=104389c35d=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:31:02 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Shawn Steele'" , "'Mark Davis'" References: , <30b660a20806041822o6d4b40edy457ed403e67d2895@mail.gmail.com> <15f501c8c6f2$2a53a810$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:29:20 +0100 Message-ID: <173401c8c7af$6b348f30$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: thread-index: AcjGqpuHvgXUND/rT66zQ/8a5JuJtQAOUFzKAAMyKAAAGzXL8AAUUyrg X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:40:51 +0100 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh != Mandarin X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1593086719==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1593086719== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1735_01C8C7B7.CCF8F730" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1735_01C8C7B7.CCF8F730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think there is some confusion going on here. When I first started = using databases (about 25 years ago) I used a system from Informix called = SMART where in SQL '!' means 'Contains' with '=3D' meaning 'equal' thus I = have interpreted 'zh!=3DMandarin' to mean 'zh' contains or is equal to = Mandarin.=20 =20 Debbie _____ =20 From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]=20 Sent: 05 June 2008 23:45 To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Mark Davis' Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: RE: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin Importance: Low I think I must=A1=AFve been confusing, I meant zh !=3D Mandarin as in = =A1=B0zh is NOT equal to Mandarin=A1=B1, which is what it sounds like you said J =20 It sounds like we mostly agree on Addison=A1=AFs latest text. =20 - Shawn =20 From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:55 AM To: Shawn Steele; 'Mark Davis' Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: RE: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin =20 I have said this probably too many times now but here goes again... 'zh' is chinese, any sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at the time = of tagging was not known to be any particular variety. 'zh' ! Mandarin and 'zh' ! Cantonese etc. 'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not correct! =20 As stated before, whilst we are all now perfectly aware that the = 'dominant' language within data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we should in no way encourage people to continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or Cantonese = or anything else other than Chinese unknown/unstated variety. It is my = opinion that we should clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the = WG decide to go, MUST be used for all future tagging and that 'zh' will continue to be treated as Chinese all/any varieties. If you wish to = have an indicator in the file that clearly shows that a particular extlang is considered dominant within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy to do. =20 I feel we are going around in circles here. We have had a straw poll = and yet we seem to still be going down the same route over and over again. = 'zh' does not and should not and must not mean Mandarin! =20 best regards =20 Debbie =20 _____ =20 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shawn Steele Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12 To: Mark Davis Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin And to be clear and address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to continue to use zh for Cantonese? =20 - Shawn _____ =20 From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On = Behalf Of Mark Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:22 PM To: Shawn Steele Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D Mandarin I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone objects to zh !=3D = Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that it is valid to tag = Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all, Chinese. What we worked out before = (and this is orthogonal to extlang vs nextlang) is to say that it is = recommended to use zh-cmn, but that for backwards compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh for Mandarin.=20 =20 (More useful advice would be that because of backwards compatibility = people should expect that into the indefinite future, "zh" will predominate, = and should keep that in mind as in using these codes either for tagging = content or matching content. However, we can live with having impractical advice = in the spec as long as it is clear that people aren't forced to follow it = for compliance.) =20 Just for information, we reran some analysis and in terms of web pages, = the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately 1/250000 of the number = of pages tagged with zh*. This is way down in the noise level: zh-cmn even occurs far, far less often than suspect, irregular or bogus tags like:=20 =20 zh_tw zh_cn ch zh-hk zh-classical zh-tw-tw gbk zh-en zhs zh-cn-cn zht zh_hk zho zh-ch zh-cn-utf-8 zh_ch zht-tw zhtw zh-tw; xmlns =BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4 =D3=A2=CE=C4 ... =20 (there are even more frequent completely bogus tags; I filtered these to ones that had something to do with Chinese). =20 Mark =20 On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele = wrote: I think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D Mandarin and that this = should be clear. I don't think anyone objects to that? I also believe that there's a general consensus that some applications = may want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin (or Cantonese), and = that this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful to some applications = because of the historical use of zh. Is there any disagreement with this? There's been a lot of discussion = on this topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form = of "zh". I *think* we're all saying basically the same thing. Does anyone object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin? - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=20 Mark=20 ------=_NextPart_000_1735_01C8C7B7.CCF8F730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think there is some confusion going on = here.  When I=20 first started using databases (about 25 years ago) I used a system = from=20 Informix called SMART where in SQL '!' means 'Contains' with '=3D' = meaning=20 'equal'  thus I have interpreted 'zh!=3DMandarin' to mean 'zh' = contains or is=20 equal to Mandarin.
 
Debbie

From: Shawn Steele=20 [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com]
Sent: 05 June 2008=20 23:45
To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Mark = Davis'
Cc:=20 'LTRU Working Group'
Subject: RE: [Ltru] zh !=3D=20 Mandarin
Importance: Low

I=20 think I must=A1=AFve been confusing, I meant zh !=3D Mandarin as in = =A1=B0zh is NOT equal=20 to Mandarin=A1=B1, which is what it sounds like you said J

 

It=20 sounds like we mostly agree on Addison=A1=AFs latest = text.

 

-=20 Shawn

 

From: Debbie = Garside=20 [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, = 2008=20 2:55 AM
To: Shawn Steele; 'Mark Davis'
Cc: 'LTRU = Working=20 Group'
Subject: RE: [Ltru] zh !=3D=20 Mandarin

 

I have=20 said this probably too many times now but here goes=20 again...

'zh' is = chinese,=20 any sort of chinese, perhaps chinese that at the time of tagging was = not known=20 to be any particular variety.  'zh' ! Mandarin and 'zh' ! = Cantonese=20 etc.  'zh' !=3D Mandarin is absolutely not = correct!

 

As stated = before,=20 whilst we are all now perfectly aware that the 'dominant' = language within=20 data tagged as 'zh' is Mandarin, we should in no way encourage people = to=20 continue using 'zh' for either Mandarin or Cantonese or anything else = other=20 than Chinese unknown/unstated variety.  It is my opinion that we = should=20 clearly state that zh-cmn, or cmn if that is the way the WG = decide to=20 go, MUST be used for all future tagging and that 'zh' will = continue to be=20 treated as Chinese all/any varieties.  If you wish to have an = indicator=20 in the file that clearly shows that a particular extlang is considered = dominant within the Macrolanguage it is quite easy to=20 do.

 

I feel we = are going=20 around in circles here.  We have had a straw poll and yet we seem = to=20 still be going down the same route over and over again. 'zh' does not = and=20 should not and must not mean Mandarin!

 

best=20 regards

 

Debbie

 

From:=20 ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Shawn Steele
Sent: 05 June 2008 09:12
To: = Mark=20 Davis
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] = zh !=3D=20 Mandarin

And=20 to be clear and address Karen's concern, its also OK for people to = continue=20 to use zh for Cantonese?

 

-=20 Shawn

From:=20 mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf = Of Mark=20 Davis [mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June = 04, 2008=20 6:22 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: LTRU Working=20 Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh !=3D=20 Mandarin

I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone = objects=20 to zh !=3D Mandarin, given the choices that 639-3 has made. Nor that = it is=20 valid to tag Mandarin content with 'zh'; it is, after all,=20 Chinese. What we worked out before (and this is orthogonal to = extlang=20 vs nextlang) is to say that it is recommended to use zh-cmn, but = that for=20 backwards compatibility people may choose to continue to use zh for=20 Mandarin.

 

(More useful advice would be that because of = backwards=20 compatibility people should expect that into the indefinite future, = "zh"=20 will predominate, and should keep that in mind as in using these = codes=20 either for tagging content or matching content. However, we can live = with=20 having impractical advice in the spec as long as it is clear that = people=20 aren't forced to follow it for compliance.)

 

Just for information, we reran some analysis = and in terms=20 of web pages, the number of pages tagged zh-cmn* is approximately=20 1/250000 of the=20 number of pages tagged with zh*. This is way down in the noise = level: zh-cmn=20 even occurs far, far less often than suspect, irregular or bogus = tags=20 like:

 

zh_tw

zh_cn

ch

zh-hk

zh-classical

zh-tw-tw

gbk

zh-en

zhs

zh-cn-cn

zht

zh_hk

zho

zh-ch

zh-cn-utf-8

zh_ch

zht-tw

zhtw

zh-tw;=20 xmlns

=BC=F2=CC=E5=D6=D0=CE=C4

=D3=A2=CE=C4

...

 

(there are even more = frequent=20 completely bogus tags; I filtered these to ones that had something = to do=20 with Chinese).

 

Mark

 

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Shawn Steele = <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com= >=20 wrote:

I think that lots of people feel that zh !=3D = Mandarin and=20 that this should be clear.  I don't think anyone objects to=20 that?

I also believe that there's a general consensus that = some=20 applications may want to match/filter zh when looking for Mandarin = (or=20 Cantonese), and that this isn't "best practice", but MAY be useful = to some=20 applications because of the historical use of zh.

Is there = any=20 disagreement with this?  There's been a lot of discussion on = this=20 topic, and that seems to be most of Karen's concern with any form of = "zh".=20  I *think* we're all saying basically the same thing. =  Does anyone=20 object to being clear that zh !=3D Mandarin?

-=20 Shawn
_______________________________________________
Ltru = mailing=20 list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru=




--
Mark=20 =

------=_NextPart_000_1735_01C8C7B7.CCF8F730-- --===============1593086719== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1593086719==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 6 02:07:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EADF3A6915; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:07:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA45A28C1E4 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:43:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=x tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQ+H+8WVUQDR for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D05CC28C1A9 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50008158434.msg for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:52:41 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:52:41 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=104389c35d=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:42:22 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:40:40 +0100 Message-ID: <174501c8c7b1$005ad230$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 thread-index: AcjHsP+XqiBrseDeSM+S7uBmyGoNQQ== X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:52:42 +0100 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:07:12 -0700 Subject: [Ltru] Information Dissemination X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi I know that this could be considered off-topic but we have on several occasions visited the subject of marketing and information dissemination in the light of getting people to adopt this standard and thus I don't consider it as off-topic as some might. It would be really great if someone could write a short paper/presentation for the GUM3C conference wrt to RFC4646, past, current and future as well as Internationalization in general as well as applications for the RFC. Panel representation would also be welcome. A paper could be presented by me/someone else of your choice if you do not wish to attend the conference. For more info visit http://www.gum3c.org Apologies if you consider this off-topic. It may be appropriate to respond off-list. 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