From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 08:35:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BED83A68D1; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CDD3A6B28 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:35:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJKDewNkc+9K for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D4F3A6BB3 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:33:34 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:33:34 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:33:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjSvbtyGak94BzbROi83Ty/WYVRDQIwsqJQ Message-ID: References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Martin Duerst > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:01 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft updated > >Just letting you and the WG know that I continue to *strongly* favor > >making "zh-cmn" and "zh-yue" (and the rest) the preferred forms, and > >"cmn" and "yue" the pre-deprecated ones. > > [technical hat on] Seconded. Regards, Martin. I haven't commented on this yet, nor has there been much discussion. I'm guessing that there are some differences of opinion here. Indeed, it strikes me that opinions may correlate to a large degree with opinions on whether to keep use of extlang or not. I think we have three approaches that can be taken wrt extlang, only two of which have really been seen so far: for language productions X-Y and Y where X denotes a macrolanguage that encompasses Y 1. only allow one of X-Y or Y to be used 2. allow either X-Y or Y, but deprecate one of them 3. allow either X-Y or Y without deprecation #1, of course, we have spent months on without reaching any consensus. Hence, I think #1 is dead. #2 is currently on the table, but I see indicators that we could get stuck on it. (In fact, I'm guessing that one reason there haven't been responses on John's and Martin's comments is that people are afraid of getting into the same rut we were in wrt #1.) I also see another potential concern wrt #2: I think there is an implicit assumption that X-Y and Y be considered semantically equivalent in terms of what they denote (although they may have slightly different behaviours in certain matching scenarios). Yet, with one or the other deprecated, there's some likelihood that some implementations will assume that the deprecated form can be largely disregarded in designing matching behaviour. Btw, it should be noted that both #1 and #2 lead to consideration of cherry picking. Now, let me propose an elaboration of #3 for adoption. This elaboration is captured by three points: (a) that both X-Y and Y are freely allowed, (b) that at the level of the language production X-Y and Y must always be considered a match (regardless of which is part of a tag or of a language range), but (c) that how X and Y compare in matching is a separate consideration (perhaps with some suggestions but ultimately left to implementations). This proposal frees us entirely from having to decide whether "zh-cmn"/"zh-yue" or "cmn"/"yue" is better. It would also mean there's no particular reason to cherry pick: the IETF-Language can discuss when it may or may not be beneficial to use the extlang formulation, but users can ultimately decide for themselves and (because of requirement b) they are assured of some degree of interoperability no matter which they choose. Of course, this would probably need some revision to RFC4647, but I think we have been heading toward that regardless. Thoughts? Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 09:47:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BA43A691C; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:47:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 666333A69B9 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:47:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.774 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.774 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.175, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c3g9xMGbbX5c for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0DB53A67D9 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:47:36 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,732,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="3020781" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jul 2008 16:47:44 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m61GlhW6025725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:47:44 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:47:43 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:47:41 -0700 Thread-Topic: extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjSvbtyGak94BzbROi83Ty/WYVRDQIwsqJQAAS91iA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter wrote: > > I also see another potential concern wrt #2: I think there is an > implicit assumption that X-Y and Y be considered semantically > equivalent in terms of what they denote (although they may have > slightly different behaviours in certain matching scenarios). Yet, > with one or the other deprecated, there's some likelihood that some > implementations will assume that the deprecated form can be largely > disregarded in designing matching behaviour. Disregarded may not be the right word. In my implementation, I canonicalize the deprecated form away before matching. A "well-formed" 4646 or 3066 implementation might not do that and arrive at different results. Besides, what you're proposing below is that both forms be treated as semantically equivalent, which is tantamount to "disregarding" one of the forms. > > Btw, it should be noted that both #1 and #2 lead to consideration > of cherry picking. I don't see why. What we're doing here is recommending one form over another for equivalent tags. Let me draw a parallel here. I work with a group of developers who code in Java. Like most development teams, we have coding style guidelines. One of them has to do with "if" statements. Both of the following forms (a) and (b) are completely equivalent, but one of them is preferred: a) if (boolean) { // code } else { // code } b) if (boolean) { // code } else { // code } It doesn't matter which one we choose and our choice doesn't affect what you might choose. That's because the compiler reduces both to the same thing. However, here our parallel breaks down: X-Y and Y produce different results in non-validating implementations, so choosing one over the other is a Good Thing. And it isn't cherry picking if we ALWAYS do it the same way. > > Now, let me propose an elaboration of #3 for adoption. This > elaboration is captured by three points: > > (a) that both X-Y and Y are freely allowed, Both #2 and #3 provide this. > (b) that at the level of the language production X-Y and Y must > always be considered a match (regardless of which is part of a tag > or of a language range), but This is where #3 is a non-starter for me: it requires us to change all of the matching schemes in ways that are incompatible with our previous tenets. In my implementation (which is validating), I didn't have to change the matching code because I canonicalize tags and ranges before matching. With a deprecation, the registry provides all of the information for this using the same mechanism I already use for mapping. See section 4.1.2 in the current draft, which says, in part: -- As with other grandfathered tags, since implementations might not be able to associate the grandfathered tags with the encompassed language subtag equivalents that are recommended by this document, implementations are encouraged to canonicalize tags for comparison purposes. -- I would tend to extend this recommendation to be more general. In lookup, the main problem with #3 is that we are not given a specific canonical form to use for our fallbacks. If we don't choose a specific canonical form, people will have to implement additional code and keep track of other fields (macrolanguage, prefix) from the registry to equate X-Y and Y for fallbacks. Currently "Preferred-Value" is the only field you have to look at for canonicalization purposes and you look at the same field for *all* subtags and tags. And this code can be executed once separately from the lookup process, since it is a canonicalization step. I'm more concerned about filtering, though. In filtering, for example, this would require a range like "zh-yue" to match a tag such as "yue-HK". This requires additional processing that none of the existing implementations or specifications have required. One of the delights of RFC 4646 was that existing tag matching schemes weren't broken. > > This proposal frees us entirely from having to decide whether "zh- > cmn"/"zh-yue" or "cmn"/"yue" is better. "Better" may not be the right word. "Preferred" would better describe the situation. Either form may be better for *your* application (or mine), depending on circumstances. What the deprecation says, in this case, is that implementations are free to/encouraged to eliminate the differences in a certain way when processing tags. I like form Y over form X-Y for two main reasons: 1. It simplifies the tags. 2. It can be done without looking at the registry. If one has a well-formed implementation, one can still canonicalize the extlang form using a regular expression (one does need the 4646bis ABNF to do this). But you can't add the macrolanguage without a glance at the registry. > It would also mean there's > no particular reason to cherry pick: the IETF-Language can discuss > when it may or may not be beneficial to use the extlang formulation, > but users can ultimately decide for themselves and (because of > requirement b) they are assured of some degree of interoperability > no matter which they choose. Uh....... ietf-languages can discuss the benefits of extlang or no extlang for a given new registration with a macrolanguage, and then register subtags to match. But users only have a choice when ietf-languages gifts us with subtags of both types. > > Of course, this would probably need some revision to RFC4647, but I > think we have been heading toward that regardless. We may need to revise 4647 anyway, but we don't break as many things if we deprecate one form, especially if that form is the 'X-Y' form. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 10:48:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA2A3A6B99; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:48:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2DD13A6B99 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:48:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.252, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4NYMRZJDBAI7 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82913A6B7A for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KDjy9-0007N3-Th; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:48:45 -0400 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:48:45 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20080701174845.GO31666@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > Now, let me propose an elaboration of #3 for adoption. This elaboration > is captured by three points: > > (a) that both X-Y and Y are freely allowed, > (b) that at the level of the language production X-Y and Y must always > be considered a match (regardless of which is part of a tag or of a > language range), but I don't understand what (b) means, particularly in contrast with (c). The whole point in allowing both is that in some contexts X-Y works better with naive matching, and in some contexts Y works better. > (c) that how X and Y compare in matching is a separate consideration > (perhaps with some suggestions but ultimately left to implementations). I assume that this proposal is still in the context of only allowing a small number of macrolanguages (plus 'sgn') as Xs in X-Y? -- [W]hen I wrote it I was more than a little John Cowan febrile with foodpoisoning from an antique carrot cowan@ccil.org that I foolishly ate out of an illjudged faith http://ccil.org/~cowan in the benignancy of vegetables. --And Rosta _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 11:18:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54513A6BB2; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:18:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950F13A6B74 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:18:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fU+ADVYkrcpq for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D223A6834 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:18:46 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:18:45 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "Phillips, Addison" , Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:18:42 -0700 Thread-Topic: extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjSvbtyGak94BzbROi83Ty/WYVRDQIwsqJQAAS91iAAAng7gA== Message-ID: References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > This is where #3 is a non-starter for me: it requires us to > change all of the matching schemes in ways that are > incompatible with our previous tenets. We already have to. There's no way you can compare cmn with zh-HK or vice versa (if you want to) without modifying the doc. > I didn't have to change the matching code because I > canonicalize tags and ranges before matching. With a deprecation, > the registry provides all of the information for this using > the same mechanism I already use for mapping The registry could provide similar equivalence for you, without deprecation, since you find the registry useful. > "Better" may not be the right word. "Preferred" would better > describe the situation. Either form may be better for *your* > application (or mine), depending on circumstances. That's not the definition of Deprecate: From OED & Webster online: Deprecate dep-re-cate: 1. trans. To pray against (evil); to pray for deliverance from; to seek to avert by prayer. arch. 3. trans. To plead earnestly against; to express an earnest wish against (a proceeding); to express earnest disapproval of (a course, plan, purpose, etc.). And: 1 a: archaic : to pray against (as an evil) b: to seek to avert 2: to express disapproval of 3 a: play down : make little of b: belittle, disparage So I have a hard time reading "deprecated" as being "allowed" to use either form, it seems that people would "pray" that I wouldn't use the deprecated form and "belittle" the implementation if a deprecated form was used :) - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 11:44:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A923A6BB6; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:44:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4E53A6BB6 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id po3wVxDa35tz for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF9E3A6BB5 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:44:38 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,732,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="80041774" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jul 2008 18:44:48 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m61IilYC020932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:44:47 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:44:47 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:44:25 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Shawn Steele , Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:44:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjSvbtyGak94BzbROi83Ty/WYVRDQIwsqJQAAS91iAAAng7gAACp0Gw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4250@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > This is where #3 is a non-starter for me: it requires us to > > change all of the matching schemes in ways that are > > incompatible with our previous tenets. > > We already have to. There's no way you can compare cmn with zh-HK > or vice versa (if you want to) without modifying the doc. (laughing) Sure you can: they don't match. Not even if you canonicalize in the other direction (to zh-cmn). You can create, of course, a proprietary matching scheme that recognizes that there is some relationship between these two tags/ranges. But this is somewhat similar to Mark's famous handling of Breton and French. That is, "en-US" and "en-boont" don't match, even though, obviously, there is some kind of relationship between them. > > > I didn't have to change the matching code because I > > canonicalize tags and ranges before matching. With a deprecation, > > the registry provides all of the information for this using > > the same mechanism I already use for mapping > > The registry could provide similar equivalence for you, without > deprecation, since you find the registry useful. Ah... but I already have a validating implementation that produces the "right" result via tag canonicalization (something I'm permitted to do to a tag or range). The distinction is that we'd be introducing a *separate* process only done in tag matching? Ick. I find the registry useful for validation, but don't ignore the fact that I don't need the registry to peel off the macrolanguage from an extlang in a well-formed implementation. Requiring the registry for matching is a deep fundamental change to matching: one that I feel requires separate algorithm(s), not modifications to the existing ones. > > > "Better" may not be the right word. "Preferred" would better > > describe the situation. Either form may be better for *your* > > application (or mine), depending on circumstances. > > That's not the definition of Deprecate: > > So I have a hard time reading "deprecated" as being "allowed" to > use either form, it seems that people would "pray" that I wouldn't > use the deprecated form and "belittle" the implementation if a > deprecated form was used :) > Deprecated is not forbidden. It will never go away, but it might not produce the results that you want in *all* situations (cf. matching using 3066 implementations). Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 11:52:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D943A6BC0; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:52:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792CA3A6BB5 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:52:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zBE3Vnm7lvJi for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB403A6994 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:53:02 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:53:02 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:53:00 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjbotY+CW8FxCueQqyNrlQA1MxjSwACCbFQ Message-ID: References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <20080701174845.GO31666@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080701174845.GO31666@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > > (b) that at the level of the language production X-Y and Y must > always > > be considered a match (regardless of which is part of a tag or of a > > language range), but > > I don't understand what (b) means, particularly in contrast with (c). For X-Y-Z (Z being some string) and Y-Z, then X-Y-Z and Y-Z is always a match, but (c) whether X-Z and Y-Z are matched is a separate matter. > I assume that this proposal is still in the context of only allowing a > small number of macrolanguages (plus 'sgn') as Xs in X-Y? That choice is left open. Part of what I was saying is that I think there's less potential need to consider cherry picking in that particular regard for #3 than there is for #1 or #2: since X-Y and Y equivalence would be guaranteed, then there really isn't a need to say up front that only a small set of macrolanguages are candidates for X. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 11:57:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF36B3A6A88; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5FE3A6A88 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:57:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.365 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.365 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.234, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A3QlKRptVjZ0 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DCB03A6994 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KDl35-0006aA-4Q; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:57:55 -0400 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:57:55 -0400 To: Shawn Steele Message-ID: <20080701185755.GI31218@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Shawn Steele scripsit: > That's not the definition of Deprecate: Dictionary definitions of "deprecate" aren't relevant, because it is a term of art among programmers and standardizers. From Wikipedia: In computer software standards and documentation, the term deprecation is applied to software features that are superseded and should be avoided. Although deprecated features remain in the current version, their use may raise warning messages recommending alternate practices, and deprecation may indicate that the feature will be removed in the future. Features are deprecated -- rather than being removed -- in order to provide backward compatibility and give programmers using the feature time to bring their code into compliance with the new standard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecation In our case, however, deprecated tags and subtags remain available for use indefinitely: we never remove anything. The same is true for Linnaean species names: An example in paleontology would be Brontosaurus, a deprecated term for the genus Apatosaurus. -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org SAXParserFactory [is] a hideous, evil monstrosity of a class that should be hung, shot, beheaded, drawn and quartered, burned at the stake, buried in unconsecrated ground, dug up, cremated, and the ashes tossed in the Tiber while the complete cast of Wicked sings "Ding dong, the witch is dead." --Elliotte Rusty Harold on xml-dev _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 12:04:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D76373A6BE4; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:04:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F213A6BE1 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:04:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LJ8zotI1TwSZ for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4173A6BE3 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:03:13 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,732,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="70584980" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jul 2008 19:03:22 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m61J3LVx008600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 1 Jul 2008 19:03:22 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:03:21 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:03:20 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjbotY+CW8FxCueQqyNrlQA1MxjSwACCbFQAAA2kMA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B42B2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <20080701174845.GO31666@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > For X-Y-Z (Z being some string) and Y-Z, then X-Y-Z and Y-Z is > always a match, but (c) whether X-Z and Y-Z are matched is a > separate matter. X-Z and Y-Z would match in *extended* filtering if X-Z is the range and Y-Z is equivalent to X-Y-Z, but at no other time. It is useful to note that in lookup, you cannot obtain the Y-Z resource itself by requesting X-Z. You can obtain its parent resource X if you canonicalize to X-Y-Z and then fall back, but not Y-Z (or even X-Y-Z). In basic filtering you can never obtain Y-Z by requesting X-Z. Neither can you obtain X-Z by requesting Y-Z (or X-Y-Z). As a reminder of why: consider Suppress-Script. > > > > I assume that this proposal is still in the context of only > allowing a > > small number of macrolanguages (plus 'sgn') as Xs in X-Y? > > That choice is left open. Part of what I was saying is that I think > there's less potential need to consider cherry picking in that > particular regard for #3 than there is for #1 or #2: since X-Y and > Y equivalence would be guaranteed, then there really isn't a need > to say up front that only a small set of macrolanguages are > candidates for X. > Multiple tag choices for the same meaning are Bad News, regardless of what form they take. We should create a few as possible (but no fewer). The "equivalence guarantee" you seek is, I fear, fraught with implementation headaches, since it requires interior knowledge of the subtag registry in order to work. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 12:20:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8C93A6843; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:20:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D2643A6784 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:20:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BBRfZf+t6B-7 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9083A6BA3 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:20:28 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:20:28 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: John Cowan Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:20:26 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjbrGUcjenyfHsdT5aWDWAcrX380gAAw8bw Message-ID: References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080701185755.GI31218@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080701185755.GI31218@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org It's the "and should be avoided" part that trips me up. - Shawn -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:58 AM To: Shawn Steele Cc: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Shawn Steele scripsit: > That's not the definition of Deprecate: Dictionary definitions of "deprecate" aren't relevant, because it is a term of art among programmers and standardizers. From Wikipedia: In computer software standards and documentation, the term deprecation is applied to software features that are superseded and should be avoided. Although deprecated features remain in the current version, their use may raise warning messages recommending alternate practices, and deprecation may indicate that the feature will be removed in the future. Features are deprecated -- rather than being removed -- in order to provide backward compatibility and give programmers using the feature time to bring their code into compliance with the new standard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecation In our case, however, deprecated tags and subtags remain available for use indefinitely: we never remove anything. The same is true for Linnaean species names: An example in paleontology would be Brontosaurus, a deprecated term for the genus Apatosaurus. -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org SAXParserFactory [is] a hideous, evil monstrosity of a class that should be hung, shot, beheaded, drawn and quartered, burned at the stake, buried in unconsecrated ground, dug up, cremated, and the ashes tossed in the Tiber while the complete cast of Wicked sings "Ding dong, the witch is dead." --Elliotte Rusty Harold on xml-dev _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 12:24:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFD93A6BC6; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:24:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1E23A6BC6 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:24:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AyngGBv3iUtX for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B8B3A6BA3 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:24:27 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,732,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="70595447" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jul 2008 19:24:37 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m61JOaUZ001085 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 1 Jul 2008 19:24:36 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:24:36 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:24:14 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Shawn Steele , John Cowan Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:24:34 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjbrGUcjenyfHsdT5aWDWAcrX380gAAw8bwAAAHOnA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4306@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080701185755.GI31218@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Use RFC 2119 meaning of "SHOULD" here: This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course. If you think you want to use the deprecated form, think about the implications (sometimes you won't get the matching you desire) before proceeding. Since we make clear what those considerations are, people can make an informed decision. Of course, we still have a disagreement (so far between Mark/Addison and Martin/John) about which way to point the deprecating arrow, but that's a small matter. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:20 PM > To: John Cowan > Cc: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated > > It's the "and should be avoided" part that trips me up. > > - Shawn > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:58 AM > To: Shawn Steele > Cc: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated > > Shawn Steele scripsit: > > > That's not the definition of Deprecate: > > Dictionary definitions of "deprecate" aren't relevant, because it > is a term > of art among programmers and standardizers. From Wikipedia: > > In computer software standards and documentation, the term > deprecation is applied to software features that are > superseded > and should be avoided. Although deprecated features remain > in the current version, their use may raise warning > messages > recommending alternate practices, and deprecation may > indicate > that the feature will be removed in the future. Features > are > deprecated -- rather than being removed -- in order to > provide > backward compatibility and give programmers using the > feature > time to bring their code into compliance with the new > standard. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecation > > In our case, however, deprecated tags and subtags remain available > for > use indefinitely: we never remove anything. The same is true for > Linnaean species names: > > An example in paleontology would be Brontosaurus, a > deprecated > term for the genus Apatosaurus. > > -- > John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > SAXParserFactory [is] a hideous, evil monstrosity of a class that > should > be hung, shot, beheaded, drawn and quartered, burned at the stake, > buried in unconsecrated ground, dug up, cremated, and the ashes > tossed > in the Tiber while the complete cast of Wicked sings "Ding dong, > the > witch is dead." --Elliotte Rusty Harold on xml-dev _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 12:32:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EA73A6911; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:32:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751FE3A69A8 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:32:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ku+TJ3qs+iJ7 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5416A3A6893 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:32:15 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:32:15 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:32:09 -0700 Thread-Topic: extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjSvbtyGak94BzbROi83Ty/WYVRDQIwsqJQAAS91iAABhIasA== Message-ID: References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: A7fN BsqG EA1l GIDY HTYV J090 REQP SBHO TVBA US99 UTCd V9jM WaEX Weg3 Wjgy W2up; 2; YQBkAGQAaQBzAG8AbgBAAGEAbQBhAHoAbwBuAC4AYwBvAG0AOwBsAHQAcgB1AEAAaQBlAHQAZgAuAG8AcgBnAA==; Sosha1_v1; 7; {22EBCFC9-DAED-4002-B7FE-65F776DB72B9}; cABlAHQAZQByAGMAbwBuAEAAbQBpAGMAcgBvAHMAbwBmAHQALgBjAG8AbQA=; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:32:09 GMT; UgBFADoAIABlAHgAdABsAGEAbgBnACAAJgAgAGQAZQBwAHIAZQBjAGEAdABpAG8AbgAgACgAdwBhAHMAIABkAHIAYQBmAHQAIAB1AHAAZABhAHQAZQBkAA== x-cr-puzzleid: {22EBCFC9-DAED-4002-B7FE-65F776DB72B9} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > > I also see another potential concern wrt #2: ... > > with one or the other deprecated, there's some likelihood that some > > implementations will assume that the deprecated form can be largely > > disregarded in designing matching behaviour. > > Disregarded may not be the right word... No, that's what I meant: you may use canonicalization to ensure that the deprecated form is always considered, but nothing requires that. > > Btw, it should be noted that both #1 and #2 lead to consideration > > of cherry picking. > > I don't see why. Well, for #2, we have started to consider cherry picking (at least, I've had that impression), and the reasons for considering it applied just the same to #1 -- we just didn't get to a point while #1 was on the table of actually considering it. But this isn't a point worth debating. > It doesn't matter which one we choose and our choice doesn't affect > what you might choose. That's because the compiler reduces both to the > same thing. However, here our parallel breaks down: X-Y and Y produce > different results in non-validating implementations, so choosing one > over the other is a Good Thing. And it isn't cherry picking if we > ALWAYS do it the same way. Again, I thought that we were cherry picking in which cases the extlang form was even considered valid (IOW, cherry picking the macrolanguages): zh, ar, sgn and a few others. > > Now, let me propose an elaboration of #3 for adoption. This > > elaboration is captured by three points: > > > > (a) that both X-Y and Y are freely allowed, > > Both #2 and #3 provide this. I mean in the sense that neither is identified as preferred. > > (b) that at the level of the language production X-Y and Y must > > always be considered a match (regardless of which is part of a tag > > or of a language range), but > > This is where #3 is a non-starter for me: it requires us to change all > of the matching schemes True. > in ways that are incompatible with our previous > tenets. Haven't groked that yet. (I just thought of all this and wrote it up immediately for feedback.) > In lookup, the main problem with #3 is that we are not given a specific > canonical form to use for our fallbacks. If we don't choose a specific > canonical form, people will have to implement additional code and keep > track of other fields (macrolanguage, prefix) from the registry to > equate X-Y and Y for fallbacks. Currently "Preferred-Value" is the only > field you have to look at for canonicalization purposes and you look at > the same field for *all* subtags and tags. And this code can be > executed once separately from the lookup process, since it is a > canonicalization step. A possible concern is that "Preferred-Value" is not only used in canonicalization *for matching purposes*, but it is also what people SHOULD be using to tag all their content and interchange: as the opening sentence of 4.5 says, ------------- Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes, language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form. ------------- So, indeed, the means we have for supporting canonicalization in the registry is also how we handle deprecation, and so we currently have to deprecate either X-Y or Y to handle these in canonicalization. Just as you say. The concern is that we are also saying that only one or the other SHOULD be used in interchange and in tagging content. I'm concerned that might lead to the very same barrier to consensus that we had for #1: some think content/interchange should use (say) "cmn" while others would like to see "zh-cmn". I guess what I'm really suggesting for #3 is that we still have the effects of canonicalization used in matching without saying that the canonical form (just wrt extlang -- X-Y vs. Y) is what SHOULD always be generated. > > This proposal frees us entirely from having to decide whether "zh- > > cmn"/"zh-yue" or "cmn"/"yue" is better. > > "Better" may not be the right word. "Preferred" would better describe > the situation. OK. > I like form Y over form X-Y for two main reasons: > > 1. It simplifies the tags. > 2. It can be done without looking at the registry. I agree. > > It would also mean there's > > no particular reason to cherry pick: the IETF-Language can discuss > > when it may or may not be beneficial to use the extlang formulation, > > but users can ultimately decide for themselves and (because of > > requirement b) they are assured of some degree of interoperability > > no matter which they choose. > > Uh....... ietf-languages can discuss the benefits of extlang or no > extlang for a given new registration with a macrolanguage, and then > register subtags to match. But users only have a choice when ietf- > languages gifts us with subtags of both types. I'm not making myself clear: whereas currently, we have (IIUC) cherry picked only certain macrolanguages and sgn as potential prefixes for extlang, I was suggesting for #3 that LTRU doesn't need to make those choices up front, that the RFC can specify *any* macrolanguage (or sgn) can be a prefix for extlang, and then it can be left to IETF-Languages to decide (perhaps differently for different cases) whether X-Y or Y is better in general (i.e. for most applications) / preferred for purposes of tagging and interchange. (We'd still want something that specifies a "canonical" form that would be picked up automatically in matching.) Again, the main concern I'm trying to address anticipated difficulty in agreeing on whether content should get tagged "zh-cmn" or "cmn". Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 13:12:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3EE3A6BCF; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:12:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CD43A6BCF for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:12:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2nUtIYeynVJk for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF4E3A6BB2 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:11:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=tJFtDaAjQKS+7RflVBqnlIjAi8vpThDb1ouCTwGDhwI5MXJFwvPSeTYbbZswZ1D2; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.88.76] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KDmCa-0002Aw-Lc for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:11:48 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c8dbb6$db663ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org><6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><20080701185755.GI31218@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:12:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b3b50a1d1851e8a25f27513dae36ca8543350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.88.76 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Shawn Steele" > To: "John Cowan" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated > > It's the "and should be avoided" part that trips me up. ... I have the same difficulty. In the world of MIBs, RFC 2578 says: The value "current" means that the definition is current and valid. The value "obsolete" means the definition is obsolete and should not be implemented and/or can be removed if previously implemented. While the value "deprecated" also indicates an obsolete definition, it permits new/continued implementation in order to foster interoperability with older/existing implementations. In that universe, "deprecated" has different implications for "agent" and "manager" application developers, but translating that thinking to the world of language tags, it would mean: "if something is deprecated, you should be prepared to process it, but, to the extent it is practical, should avoid generating it." The use of the term "deprecated" was deliberate in MIB land, because we did indeed want to maintain the "please don't do this" semantic. Stuff there gets deprecated because it has proven to be problematic or inadequate, but is too entrenched to permit an outright declaration of "obsolete." My reason for saying "SHOULD be prepared to process it" is that in my experience folks balk at putting tests for "deprecated" bits into conformance test suites or acceptance criteria. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 13:49:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25A33A68E5; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:49:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDDB13A68E5 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:49:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.716 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.716 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.883, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LlsKqUaSZ+cB for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4A23A6BF7 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:48:00 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,732,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="80128741" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jul 2008 20:48:08 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m61Km8GA026132 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 1 Jul 2008 20:48:08 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:48:07 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:48:06 -0700 Thread-Topic: extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjSvbtyGak94BzbROi83Ty/WYVRDQIwsqJQAAS91iAABhIasAABaBEA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4452@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Well, for #2, we have started to consider cherry picking (at least, > I've had that impression), and the reasons for considering it > applied just the same to #1 -- we just didn't get to a point while > #1 was on the table of actually considering it. But this isn't a > point worth debating. Actually, we considered and rejected it for #1, IIRC. Then some attempts were made at a compromise that used cherry-picking. Given all that, I don't see why #3 doesn't potentially lead to cherry-picking too. The picking of cherries is orthogonal to the solution chosen. > > Again, I thought that we were cherry picking in which cases the > extlang form was even considered valid (IOW, cherry picking the > macrolanguages): zh, ar, sgn and a few others. Well, yes. Unless we don't. > > in ways that are incompatible with our previous > > tenets. > > Haven't groked that yet. (I just thought of all this and wrote it > up immediately for feedback.) I had in mind, in particular, that our current matching schemes require only the tags/ranges themselves, without any a priori information, in order to function. Canonicalization (a separate process) helps and is recommended here (but not required) because strict subtag matching can't deal with tag/subtag replacement (deprecation). Not requiring the registry is, to my mind, a fundamental tenet of matching as it sits today. > > A possible concern is that "Preferred-Value" is not only used in > canonicalization *for matching purposes*, but it is also what > people SHOULD be using to tag all their content and interchange: as > the opening sentence of 4.5 says, > I agree that this applies. But I think it is important that we establish a general trend in tag choice. Multiple choices in language tags are bad news. > > So, indeed, the means we have for supporting canonicalization in > the registry is also how we handle deprecation, and so we currently > have to deprecate either X-Y or Y to handle these in > canonicalization. Just as you say. The concern is that we are also > saying that only one or the other SHOULD be used in interchange and > in tagging content. I'm concerned that might lead to the very same > barrier to consensus that we had for #1: some think > content/interchange should use (say) "cmn" while others would like > to see "zh-cmn". We do have a long-ish section about extlangs in the section on tag choice to address this concern. We do say to use the canonical form and it *is* preferred and there are good reasons for us to prefer one form or another. However, the reason this compromise has any chance is that it allows people to disagree and still interoperate. > > I guess what I'm really suggesting for #3 is that we still have the > effects of canonicalization used in matching without saying that > the canonical form (just wrt extlang -- X-Y vs. Y) is what SHOULD > always be generated. Again, we can spell out the reasons one might choose to ignore the SHOULD in the section on tag choice. > I'm not making myself clear: whereas currently, we have (IIUC) > cherry picked only certain macrolanguages and sgn as potential > prefixes for extlang, I was suggesting for #3 that LTRU doesn't > need to make those choices up front, that the RFC can specify *any* > macrolanguage (or sgn) can be a prefix for extlang, and then it can > be left to IETF-Languages to decide (perhaps differently for > different cases) whether X-Y or Y is better in general (i.e. for > most applications) / preferred for purposes of tagging and > interchange. (We'd still want something that specifies a > "canonical" form that would be picked up automatically in matching.) No, you're perfectly clear. However, not making a choice is, de facto, making a choice... because Doug would need to choose in 4645bis. Or we make no extlangs out of the box and let ietf-languages wrangle over individual extlang registrations later. Or we put all enclosed languages in as extlangs (making it more difficult to justify future non-registration of an extlang). Cherry-picking was employed in the current #2 precisely because (I believe you pointed this out) the real issue/need/desire for extlang revolved around a cherry-picked set and had increasingly little to do with macrolanguages per se. But we could choose to do all macrolanguages again. I actually don't care that much about how Quechua is tagged. > > Again, the main concern I'm trying to address anticipated > difficulty in agreeing on whether content should get tagged "zh- > cmn" or "cmn". > If the solution were obvious, we'd have been done months ago. The current compromise is that both camps are "satisfied" (you can use both forms), but one form is less preferred going forward. Most important, we describe what results to expect and what issues arise from a user's tag choices. I am supporting and have made technical arguments for one particular position, but am willing to go the other way if that's where consensus lies. In part that's because I'll be free to do "what I know to be the Right Thing", even if doing it breaks from consensus. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 17:53:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DB53A67A5; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:53:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0EF3A6837 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:53:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z0wdhfrVhVNs for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC463A6782 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:54:01 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:54:01 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:54:00 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjbrGLa7Mt3JNzLTMOg4HfNJYw5FQAMWeGA Message-ID: References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080701185755.GI31218@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080701185755.GI31218@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > In our case, however, deprecated tags and subtags remain available for > use indefinitely: we never remove anything. Yes; but it's also the case that we tell people (at least, in the current draft) that they SHOULD not ever generate deprecated tags. So, *can* be used, and can always be validated, but *shouldn't* be used to tag content. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 17:58:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7670C3A67A5; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:58:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED6A3A6782 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:58:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D77LLcygkGN9 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4CF83A67A5 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so60885ywj.49 for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:58:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=NyLGk7No05ETxUi3UcgfNTT0R+YKvBQLiDieLXTKmNg=; b=aik5nNCXKbrqmI2fpq4BVv0AfErlAKBO+KiRe132hFsb+TWRx+EZXXtoUyvUBKEEhu BsXqf4eJjCAjUBYUTaM19doWOqJtua9wmV1Sd/sxzX977tu2ZXJrvReW5wsyPQdAt3kn yx5D6mv+c3NT0k4uL1sd7z3PwXm32ca06ajC0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=QaYiE89ktADfs3e/98IiafzJFreoMxHihmu5blx/jXA/mUaA7NIKeirO18Xf+ZVEK1 tTmXAPYDP9JCyGGqEdUR7XHQYltXN09wKG+Vx5QGStzvDdvOOx+HLDvC1RVwlxPhWPpa VI6gfCYU+03KuQkiNsPll6NdxYyGofPEO7geE= Received: by 10.150.82.42 with SMTP id f42mr11578751ybb.197.1214960333315; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.149.10 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807011758o52327256u1c7f8e9cfeeb59eb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:58:53 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080701185755.GI31218@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 98eb0e03c342c539 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1736127564==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1736127564== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3179_5360647.1214960333329" ------=_Part_3179_5360647.1214960333329 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Where "shouldn't" means "shouldn't unless you have a good reason". For example, wide swaths of IT continue to use "iw" because Java does, and Java continues to use it because it would break wide swaths of IT if it changed. Mark On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Peter Constable wrote: > > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > > > > In our case, however, deprecated tags and subtags remain available for > > use indefinitely: we never remove anything. > > Yes; but it's also the case that we tell people (at least, in the current > draft) that they SHOULD not ever generate deprecated tags. So, *can* be > used, and can always be validated, but *shouldn't* be used to tag content. > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_3179_5360647.1214960333329 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Where "shouldn't" means "shouldn't unless you have a good reason". For example, wide swaths of IT continue to use "iw" because Java does, and Java continues to use it because it would break wide swaths of IT if it changed.

Mark

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
> From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]


> In our case, however, deprecated tags and subtags remain available for
> use indefinitely: we never remove anything.

Yes; but it's also the case that we tell people (at least, in the current draft) that they SHOULD not ever generate deprecated tags. So, *can* be used, and can always be validated, but *shouldn't* be used to tag content.



Peter
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------=_Part_3179_5360647.1214960333329-- --===============1736127564== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1736127564==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 18:06:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DC13A6845; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:06:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779913A6845 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:06:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d-XEwaCv4L5j for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52563A6817 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:06:34 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:06:33 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:06:32 -0700 Thread-Topic: extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: AcjSvbtyGak94BzbROi83Ty/WYVRDQIwsqJQAAS91iAABhIasAABaBEAAAtTIjA= Message-ID: References: <20080619035712.GI32073@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080620155949.06087920@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4015@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4452@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B4452@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > > A possible concern is that "Preferred-Value" is not only used in > > canonicalization *for matching purposes*, but it is also what > > people SHOULD be using to tag all their content and interchange: as > > the opening sentence of 4.5 says, > > I agree that this applies. But I think it is important that we > establish a general trend in tag choice. Multiple choices in language > tags are bad news. OK, so you're saying we need to move the trend in tag choice either toward everyone tagging things as "zh-cmn"/"zh-yue"/etc., or toward everyone tagging things as "cmn"/"yue"/etc. We've got different opinions on which way this should go. Some here *strongly* favour the former; I've got some people telling me they *strongly* favour the latter. How will we reach a consensus? The main intent of what I've proposed is to say that we don't push one over the other. (Kind of like Latin precomposed/decomposed representations in Unicode: the Standard doesn't try to push either over the other.) > > Again, the main concern I'm trying to address anticipated > > difficulty in agreeing on whether content should get tagged "zh- > > cmn" or "cmn". > > > > If the solution were obvious, we'd have been done months ago. The > current compromise is that both camps are "satisfied" (you can use both > forms), but one form is less preferred going forward. Most important, > we describe what results to expect and what issues arise from a user's > tag choices. Well, are both camps "satisfied"? We're not just saying you can use both forms; we'd be saying, "You can use either, but we really want you to use this one." Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 18:31:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29FF3A6852; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:31:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69EE93A6852 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:31:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yJrrMyz8r8pS for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B5F63A681A for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1093 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2008 01:31:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.47) with ESMTP; 02 Jul 2008 01:31:45 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 19:31:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sm9obiBDb3dhbiA8Y293YW4gYXQgY2NpbCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3cm90ZToKCj4+IFRoYXQncyBub3Qg dGhlIGRlZmluaXRpb24gb2YgRGVwcmVjYXRlOgo+Cj4gRGljdGlvbmFyeSBkZWZpbml0aW9ucyBv ZiAiZGVwcmVjYXRlIiBhcmVuJ3QgcmVsZXZhbnQsIGJlY2F1c2UgaXQgaXMgYSAKPiB0ZXJtIG9m IGFydCBhbW9uZyBwcm9ncmFtbWVycyBhbmQgc3RhbmRhcmRpemVycy4gIEZyb20gV2lraXBlZGlh Ogo+Cj4gICAgICAgSW4gY29tcHV0ZXIgc29mdHdhcmUgc3RhbmRhcmRzIGFuZCBkb2N1bWVudGF0 aW9uLCB0aGUgdGVybQo+ICAgICAgIGRlcHJlY2F0aW9uIGlzIGFwcGxpZWQgdG8gc29mdHdhcmUg ZmVhdHVyZXMgdGhhdCBhcmUgc3VwZXJzZWRlZAo+ICAgICAgIGFuZCBzaG91bGQgYmUgYXZvaWRl ZC4gQWx0aG91Z2ggZGVwcmVjYXRlZCBmZWF0dXJlcyByZW1haW4KPiAgICAgICBpbiB0aGUgY3Vy cmVudCB2ZXJzaW9uLCB0aGVpciB1c2UgbWF5IHJhaXNlIHdhcm5pbmcgbWVzc2FnZXMKPiAgICAg ICByZWNvbW1lbmRpbmcgYWx0ZXJuYXRlIHByYWN0aWNlcywgYW5kIGRlcHJlY2F0aW9uIG1heSBp bmRpY2F0ZQo+ICAgICAgIHRoYXQgdGhlIGZlYXR1cmUgd2lsbCBiZSByZW1vdmVkIGluIHRoZSBm dXR1cmUuIEZlYXR1cmVzIGFyZQo+ICAgICAgIGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgLS0gcmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gYmVp bmcgcmVtb3ZlZCAtLSBpbiBvcmRlciB0byBwcm92aWRlCj4gICAgICAgYmFja3dhcmQgY29tcGF0 aWJpbGl0eSBhbmQgZ2l2ZSBwcm9ncmFtbWVycyB1c2luZyB0aGUgZmVhdHVyZQo+ICAgICAgIHRp bWUgdG8gYnJpbmcgdGhlaXIgY29kZSBpbnRvIGNvbXBsaWFuY2Ugd2l0aCB0aGUgbmV3IHN0YW5k YXJkLgo+ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgaHR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9EZXByZWNh dGlvbgoKQWN0dWFsbHksIHdoaWxlIHRoaXMgZGlzYWdyZWVtZW50IG92ZXIgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiB0 aGUgd29yZCAiZGVwcmVjYXRlZCIgCm1heSBzZWVtIGFjYWRlbWljLCBJIHRoaW5rIGl0IGN1dHMg dG8gdGhlIHZlcnkgaGVhcnQgb2YgdGhlIFgtWSB2ZXJzdXMgWSAKY29udHJvdmVyc3kuICBQZW9w bGUgb24gdGhpcyBsaXN0IC0tIGV2ZW4gdGhlIHNhbWUgcGVyc29uIGF0IGRpZmZlcmVudCAKdGlt ZXM7IEknbGwgZGlnIHVwIHF1b3RlcyBpZiBhc2tlZCAtLSBoYXZlIHNhaWQgdGhhdCAoMSkgZGVw cmVjYXRlZCAKc3VidGFncyBhcmUgcGVyZmVjdGx5IGZpbmUgdG8gdXNlLCBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZXkn bGwganVzdCBnZXQgbm9ybWFsaXplZCAKYXdheSwgQU5EIHRoYXQgKDIpIGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgc3Vi dGFncyBhcmUgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRvIGJlIGF2b2lkZWQgYXQgYWxsIApjb3N0cy4KCldlIGNhbid0 IGhhdmUgaXQgYm90aCB3YXlzLCBhbmQgZXhwZWN0IHRob3NlIG9uIHRoZSBvcHBvc2l0ZSBzaWRl IG9mIAp0aGlzIGJhdHRsZSB0byBhY2NlcHQgdGhlaXIgcHJlZmVycmVkIGZvcm1zIGJlaW5nICJk ZXByZWNhdGVkIiBvbiB0aGUgCmJhc2lzIG9mIGFyZ3VtZW50IDEgKCJpdCdzIHN0aWxsIE9LIHRv IHVzZSB0aGVtIikgd2hlbiB3ZSBzdGlsbCBoYXZlIApkcmFmdCB0ZXh0LCBhbmQgYXJndW1lbnRz IG9uIHRoZSBsaXN0LCB0aGF0IHRoZWlyIHVzZSB3aWxsIGJlIGNvbnNpZGVyZWQgCm5vbi1jb25m b3JtYW50LgoKQXMgSSd2ZSBzYWlkIGJlZm9yZSwgd2UgY2FuIGdldCBzbyBjYXVnaHQgdXAgaW4g b3VyIG93biB0ZXJtaW5vbG9neSB0aGF0IAp3ZSBmb3JnZXQgdGhhdCB0aGUgZ2VuZXJhbCB0YWdn aW5nIHBvcHVsYWNlIG1heSBub3QgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB0aGVzZSAKdGVybXMgdGhlIHdheSB3ZSB1 bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoZW0gLS0gYW5kIHdpdGhvdXQgYSBnbG9zc2FyeSwgd2UgY2FuJ3QgCmZhdWx0 IHRoZW0gZm9yIGRldmlzaW5nIHRoZWlyIG93biBkZWZpbml0aW9ucy4gIEkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCBK b2huIHRoYXQgCnRoZSB1c2Ugb2YgImRlcHJlY2F0ZWQiIGluIHRoZSBwcm9ncmFtbWluZyB3b3Js ZCBpcyBkaWZmZXJlbnQgZnJvbSB0aGUgCm1haW5zdHJlYW0gZGljdGlvbmFyeSBkZWZpbml0aW9u LCB3aGljaCBldm9rZXMgdmlzaW9ucyBvZiBidXJuaW5nIGF0IHRoZSAKc3Rha2UsIGJ1dCB3ZSBk b24ndCBldmVuIGFncmVlIGFtb25nIG91cnNlbHZlcyBleGFjdGx5IHdoYXQgaXQgZG9lcyAKbWVh bi4KClVudGlsIHdlIGRvIHRoYXQsIGFuZCB1bmxlc3Mgd2UgZGVjaWRlIGZvcm1hbGx5IHRoYXQg ImRlcHJlY2F0ZWQiIGhhcyAKdGhlIGdlbnRsZXIgbWVhbmluZyBvZiAiT0sgdG8gdXNlLCBidXQg d2lsbCBiZSBub3JtYWxpemVkIGF3YXksIiB0aGUgCmJhdHRsZSBsaW5lcyBiZXR3ZWVuIHRoZSAi emgtY21uIiBjcm93ZCBhbmQgdGhlICJjbW4iIGNyb3dzIHdpbGwgCmNvbnRpbnVlIHRvIGJlIGRy YXduLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0 NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3Jn L2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5v L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYu b3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 21:54:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC433A6952; 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Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:54:30 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:49:46 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: Acjb42w3YuxGa2FKQ52EB5EXYHu+vQAG6DBa Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > fault them for devising their own definitions. I agree with John that > the use of "deprecated" in the programming world is different from the > mainstream dictionary definition My interpretation of deprecated in computing is "this is obsolete and replaced by something newer". Presumably it still works, but I think in a code review you'd typically get dinged for using deprecated APIs when newer behavior was available. Not quite a burning at the stake, but still not good to use. Given the negative press that sometimes occurs in some reason for no particular reason, it seems that using deprecated stuff in computing could even open some of us up to nasty remarks whether or not the reasoning was sound. - Shawn _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 22:33:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B383A6A38; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:33:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458273A6A0B for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:33:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BQIFTVcAGQH1 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id F35FA3A68D6 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6045 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2008 05:34:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.39) with ESMTP; 02 Jul 2008 05:34:00 -0000 Message-ID: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 23:34:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org V2hhdCBhYm91dCB0aGlzOgooV2FybmluZzogc29tZSBvZiB0aGVzZSBzdWdnZXN0aW9ucyBhcmUg cmFkaWNhbCwgYnV0IG1lYW50IHRvIHJlYWNoIGEgCndvcmthYmxlIGFjY29yZCkKCjEuICBQcm92 aWRlIGFuIGV4cGxpY2l0IGRlZmluaXRpb24gZm9yIHRoZSB3b3JkICJkZXByZWNhdGVkIiBpbiBC Q1AgNDcsIApzb21ldGhpbmcgb24gdGhlIG9yZGVyIG9mICJUaGVyZSBpcyBhbm90aGVyIHRhZyBv ciBzdWJ0YWcgdGhhdCBtZWFucyB0aGUgCnNhbWUgYXMgdGhpcyBvbmUsIGJ1dCBpcyBwcmVmZXJy ZWQsIGFuZCB2YWxpZGF0aW5nIHByb2Nlc3NvcnMgd2lsbCAKdHJhbnNsYXRlIHRoaXMgc3VidGFn IGludG8gdGhlIHByZWZlcnJlZCBlcXVpdmFsZW50LiAgQnV0IG5vYm9keSB3aWxsIApiZWF0IHlv dSB1cCBvciBtYWtlIHlvdSByZWdpc3RlciB3aXRoIHRoZSBwb2xpY2UgaWYgeW91IHVzZSB0aGUg Cm5vbi1wcmVmZXJyZWQgb25lIGluc3RlYWQuIiAgTWFrZSBzdXJlIG90aGVyIHRleHQgaW4gdGhl IGRyYWZ0IGRvZXMgbm90IApjb250cmFkaWN0IHRoaXMuCgoyLiAgRGVmaW5lIGFsbCBvZiB0aGUg WSBmb3JtcyAoZS5nLiAiY21uIikgaW4gdGhlIFJlZ2lzdHJ5IGFzIFR5cGU6IApleHRsYW5nLCBu b25lIGFzIFR5cGU6IGxhbmd1YWdlLiAgQmVhciB3aXRoIG1lIGhlcmUuCgozLiAgQ2hhbmdlIHRo ZSBwcm9zZSAoYW5kIEFCTkYgaWYgbmVjZXNzYXJ5KSB0byBzcGVjaWZ5IHRoYXQgYW4gCiJleHRs YW5nIiBjYW4gYmUgdXNlZCBlaXRoZXIgYWxvbmUsIGFzICJjbW4iIChZKSwgb3IgdG9nZXRoZXIg d2l0aCBpdHMgClByZWZpeCwgYXMgInpoLWNtbiIgKFgtWSkuICBJbiBvdGhlciB3b3JkcywgYW4g ImV4dGxhbmciIGlzIGEgc3BlY2lhbCAKdHlwZSBvZiAibGFuZ3VhZ2UiIHRoYXQgaGFzIGFuIG9w dGlvbmFsIFByZWZpeC4gIFNwZWNpZnkgdGhhdCB0aGUgWSBmb3JtIAppcyAicHJlZmVycmVkIiBh bmQgdGhlIFgtWSBmb3JtIGlzICJkZXByZWNhdGVkLCIgdXNpbmcgdGhlIGNsZWFybHkgCnNwZWNp ZmllZCwgd2F0ZXJlZC1kb3duIGRlZmluaXRpb24gb2YgImRlcHJlY2F0ZWQiIGZyb20gaXRlbSAx LgoKNC4gIEFwcGx5IHRoaXMgbG9naWMgdG8gYWxsIGVuY29tcGFzc2VkIGxhbmd1YWdlcywgbm90 IGp1c3QgdGhvc2UgCmJlbG9uZ2luZyB0byBhIGNoZXJyeS1waWNrZWQgc2V0IG9mIG1hY3JvbGFu Z3VhZ2VzIHBsdXMgInNnbiIuICBGb3IgCmV4dHJhIGNyZWRpdCwgZmlndXJlIG91dCBob3cgdG8g bWFrZSB0aGlzIHdvcmsgd2l0aCBjaGFuZ2luZyBJU08gNjM5LTMgCmdyb3VwaW5ncy4KClRoaXMg d291bGQgYWxsb3cgYm90aCBleHRsYW5naXN0YXMgYW5kIG5vbi1leHRsYW5naXN0YXMgdG8gdGFn IGFzIG5lZWRlZCAKdG8gYWNoaWV2ZSB0aGUgZGVzaXJlZCBtYXRjaGluZyBhbmQgZmFsbGJhY2sg YmVoYXZpb3IsIGFuZCB3b3VsZCBzb2x2ZSAKQWRkaXNvbidzIGNvbmNlcm4gYWJvdXQgYmVpbmcg YWJsZSB0byBub3JtYWxpemUgd2l0aG91dCB0aGUgUmVnaXN0cnksIApzaW5jZSBhbGwgdmFsaWQg dGFncyBvZiBmb3JtIFhYKFgpLVlZWSBjb3VsZCBiZSBub3JtYWxpemVkIHRvIFlZWSAKYmxpbmRs eS4gIERldGVybWluaW5nIHZhbGlkaXR5IGluIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBwbGFjZSBzdGlsbCByZXF1aXJl cyB0aGUgClJlZ2lzdHJ5LCBidXQgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gd2F5IGFyb3VuZCB0aGF0IGFueXdheS4K ClBhcnQgMyBwcmV2ZW50cyBuZWVkbGVzcyBhbmQgY29uZnVzaW5nIGR1cGxpY2F0aW9uIGluIHRo ZSBSZWdpc3RyeSwgYSAKcHJvYmxlbSB3aGljaCB3b3VsZCBiZSBtYWRlIHdvcnNlIGJ5IFBhcnQg NC4KClBhcnQgNCByZW1vdmVzIGFyYml0cmFyaW5lc3MsIHBhcnRseSB0byBoZWxwIHRoaXMgZG9j dW1lbnQgc3Vydml2ZSBJRVRGIApMQywgYnV0IGFsc28gZm9yIGl0cyBvd24gc2FrZS4gIEkgYW0g c2Vuc2l0aXZlIHRvIEFkZGlzb24ncyBwb2ludCB0aGF0IAp3ZSBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBhcyBmZXcg ZHVwbGljYXRlIHRhZ3MgYXMgcG9zc2libGUsIGJ1dCBJIHN0aWxsIGZlZWwgdGhpcyAKaXMgYW4g YWRlcXVhdGUgY29tcHJvbWlzZSwgaW4gd2hpY2ggdGhlIGV4dGxhbmdpc3RhcyBjb25jZWRlIHRo ZSBmb3JtYWwgCiJwcmVmZXJhYmlsaXR5IiBvZiB0aGUgbm9uLWV4dGxhbmd5IGZvcm1zIGJ1dCBy ZXNlcnZlIHRoZSByaWdodCB0byB1c2UgCnRoZSBlYXNpbHkgbm9ybWFsaXplZCwgZGVwcmVjYXRl ZCBmb3JtcyB0aGF0IHRoZXkgcHJlZmVyIHdpdGhvdXQgYmVpbmcgCmJyYW5kZWQgd2l0aCBhIHNj YXJsZXQgRC4KClBhcnRzIDIgYW5kIDMgbXVzdCBiZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRlZCB0b2dldGhlciBvciBu b3QgYXQgYWxsLiAgUGFydCAxIGlzIApzZXZlcmFibGUgZnJvbSB0aGUgcmVzdCwgbm90IGFsbCB0 aGF0IHJhZGljYWwsIGFuZCBwcm9iYWJseSBhIGdvb2QgaWRlYSAKbm8gbWF0dGVyIHdoYXQgZWxz ZSB3ZSBkby4gIFBhcnQgNCBpcyBhbHNvIHNldmVyYWJsZSBmcm9tIHRoZSByZXN0LgoKSSd2ZSBw dXQgb24gbXkgYXNiZXN0b3MgdGFjdGljYWwgdmVzdCBhbmQgYW0gbm93IHJlYWR5IGZvciBXRyBm ZWVkYmFjay4gClBsZWFzZSBhdm9pZCBwZXJzb25hbCBhdHRhY2tzOyB0aGV5IGRvbid0IHNvbHZl IHRlY2huaWNhbCBwcm9ibGVtcy4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8s IFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRw Oi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93 d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 22:34:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE123A68F6; 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02 Jul 2008 05:34:45 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m625YiSa004668 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 2 Jul 2008 05:34:44 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:34:44 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:34:22 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Shawn Steele , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:34:42 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated Thread-Index: Acjb42w3YuxGa2FKQ52EB5EXYHu+vQAG6DBaAAFVK2A= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B7B495D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] extlang & deprecation (was draft updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > My interpretation of deprecated in computing is "this is obsolete > and replaced by something newer". Presumably it still works, but I > think in a code review you'd typically get dinged for using > deprecated APIs when newer behavior was available. Not quite a > burning at the stake, but still not good to use. > Yes, but we are not talking about code here. We're talking about value. Deprecated values are still legal values, part of the domain of values one's code MUST deal with to be a conforming implementation. "art-lojban" and "i-hak" are also deprecated, but code must still deal with those values. So too one must deal with the deprecation of either "X-Y" forms or "Y" forms. The deprecation of one in favor of the other suggests that an implementation should replace one with the other (when not otherwise obligated). In fact, my argument in favor of a particular form of deprecation partially rests on the observation that some mappings are easier to work with than others. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 2 01:18:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B631A3A6BC9; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 01:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78A1B3A6C15 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 01:18:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.258 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.258 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.341, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mg3pIvvzFek7 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 01:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 806603A6988 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 01:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33579 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KDxXV-00077N-7a for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:18:09 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:18:06 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Thread-Index: AcjcBT+ZZHSkTgJ0QHOK0RQfRJOIlgAFn8BQ X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KDxXV-00077N-7a. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1KDxXV-00077N-7a 37af1ac32a3fd7c946e7ff78ca354829 Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > 2. Define all of the Y forms (e.g. "cmn") in the Registry as Type: > extlang, none as Type: language. Bear with me here. > > 3. Change the prose (and ABNF if necessary) to specify that an > "extlang" can be used either alone, as "cmn" (Y), or together with its > Prefix, as "zh-cmn" (X-Y). In other words, an "extlang" is a special > type of "language" that has an optional Prefix. [...] I don't think the -16 ABNF needs to be changed at all for that, just the prose. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 2 08:31:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA373A687E; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 08:31:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCDB3A67EC for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 08:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org 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h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ppAadJAnkZbPd0gPNZUiMuXpw1iyvfpdcPqiiHCKHyLGQASmpf+qTrv56mrEWNGsk4 AzcLSQkOC+UbIXR1t/hBshfNQgCb9FfVu0giu+8OBCmj6fH2hXhR6Re+5zB5ZlC5fwRT +3eqe0X1f2qokyWLzKTeCaYaQ616VCpHaPXMs= Received: by 10.150.121.3 with SMTP id t3mr2271442ybc.214.1215012680472; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.149.10 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 08:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807020831t496a5b6ew473578d67edef1ee@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 08:31:20 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 003cd68ec683b5fc Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1574192611==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1574192611== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5617_31167476.1215012680470" ------=_Part_5617_31167476.1215012680470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SXQgc291bmRzIHJlYXNvbmFibGUgdG8gbWUuCgpNYXJrCgpPbiBUdWUsIEp1bCAxLCAyMDA4IGF0 IDEwOjM0IFBNLCBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsIDxkb3VnQGV3ZWxsaWMub3JnPiB3cm90ZToKCj4gV2hhdCBh Ym91dCB0aGlzOgo+IChXYXJuaW5nOiBzb21lIG9mIHRoZXNlIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb25zIGFyZSByYWRp Y2FsLCBidXQgbWVhbnQgdG8gcmVhY2ggYQo+IHdvcmthYmxlIGFjY29yZCkKPgo+IDEuICBQcm92 aWRlIGFuIGV4cGxpY2l0IGRlZmluaXRpb24gZm9yIHRoZSB3b3JkICJkZXByZWNhdGVkIiBpbiBC Q1AgNDcsCj4gc29tZXRoaW5nIG9uIHRoZSBvcmRlciBvZiAiVGhlcmUgaXMgYW5vdGhlciB0YWcg 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4A1FC3A6C68; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:45:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2393A6C8B for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:45:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.842 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.842 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.243, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IgSsK+vbCpTY for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C433A67DF for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:45:32 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,738,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="3692042" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jul 2008 16:45:42 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m62GjcsC004907 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:45:41 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:45:39 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:45:17 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Doug Ewell Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:45:37 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) Thread-Index: AcjcWLuXV0ON8q2XRmepK0BrBi1YwwABVf/Q Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B882DAB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20807020831t496a5b6ew473578d67edef1ee@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807020831t496a5b6ew473578d67edef1ee@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SXQgKmFsbW9zdCogc291bmRzIHJlYXNvbmFibGUgdG8gbWUuIFNvbWUgY29tbWVudHMgZm9sbG93 Lg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYN Cg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hp 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aWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 2 10:14:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D803A687E; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4A43A687E for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eJXhA99HsxNF for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA3A3A6859 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:14:50 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:14:44 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "Phillips, Addison" , Mark Davis , Doug Ewell Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:14:42 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) Thread-Index: AcjcWLuXV0ON8q2XRmepK0BrBi1YwwABVf/QAAH086A= Message-ID: References: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20807020831t496a5b6ew473578d67edef1ee@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B882DAB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B882DAB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmU6IERlcHJlY2F0ZWQuDQoNCkkgaGFwcGVuIHRvIHdvcmsgZm9yIGEgbGFyZ2UgY29tcGFueSB0 aGF0IHJlZ3VsYXJseSBnZXRzICJiZWF0IHVwIiBpbiB0aGUgbWVkaWEgZm9yIG5vdCB1c2luZyB0 aGUgcHJlZmVycmVkIGZvcm1zIG9mIHN0YW5kYXJkcy4gIFRob3NlIGRvaW5nIHRoZSByYW50aW5n 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10:23:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E333A696F; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:23:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C35C3A696F for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:23:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.381 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.381 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.218, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O6DFG9+puJIs for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9331C3A694A for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KE63h-00074I-Jb; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:23:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:23:57 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080702172357.GR31666@mercury.ccil.org> References: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > 1. Provide an explicit definition for the word "deprecated" in BCP 47, > something on the order of "There is another tag or subtag that means the > same as this one, but is preferred, and validating processors will > translate this subtag into the preferred equivalent. But nobody will > beat you up or make you register with the police if you use the > non-preferred one instead." Make sure other text in the draft does not > contradict this. I strongly support this idea, and I think it should appear early in the document, for clarity. At the same time we should get rid of the use of "supersede(d)" in favor of "deprecate(d)" everywhere. > 2. Define all of the Y forms (e.g. "cmn") in the Registry as Type: > extlang, none as Type: language. Bear with me here. Presumably this is meant to exclude the ones which are already in as languages? I don't think we want to allow sh-bos, for example. > 3. Change the prose (and ABNF if necessary) to specify that an > "extlang" can be used either alone, as "cmn" (Y), or together with its > Prefix, as "zh-cmn" (X-Y). In other words, an "extlang" is a special > type of "language" that has an optional Prefix. Specify that the Y form > is "preferred" and the X-Y form is "deprecated," using the clearly > specified, watered-down definition of "deprecated" from item 1. This breaks the invariant that subtags are deprecated iff they have a "Deprecated:" field, but that's tolerable (-16 makes all the extlangs deprecated with a Preferred-Value of themselves, interpreted as a full tag rather than as a subtag). More seriously, though, it breaks the invariant that the syntactic slot "language" is filled only with "language" subtags. Currently this invariant applies to all four kinds of subtags, and I think it's an important part of Getting It Right for people who haven't read all the fine print: once you clear away the grandfathered rubbish, you can just take the Cartesian product of the four lists of subtags as a rough guide to validity. I would rather keep -16's scheme than this, frankly. > 4. Apply this logic to all encompassed languages, not just those > belonging to a cherry-picked set of macrolanguages plus "sgn". For > extra credit, figure out how to make this work with changing ISO 639-3 > groupings. This is where we go from Grotty Compromise to Seriously Nasty. 639-3 is free to change a language from independent to encompassed or vice versa at any time, and then the carefully crafted scheme goes down the toilet. I continue to think that the best defense against cherry-picking complaints is to say we are doing this for backward compatibility, and we need backward compatibility only for "zh" and "sgn", period. (In this scheme I think it might make sense to restore the table from -14 that explains that the macrolanguage tag is preferred for Konkani, Malay, Swahili, and Uzbek.) > I've put on my asbestos tactical vest and am now ready for WG feedback. > Please avoid personal attacks; they don't solve technical problems. So here's my take: +1 on #1, -1 on the other ideas. Also, cherry-pick zh and sgn only (-16 isn't specific, as this is an RFC 4645bis issue), restore the -14 table of special-case macrolanguages. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan If he has seen farther than others, it is because he is standing on a stack of dwarves. --Mike Champion, describing Tim Berners-Lee (adapted) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 2 10:59:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958CE3A696D; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:59:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054703A6880 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:59:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.687 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.687 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hnG9pSkTAwvx for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBA33A687E for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:59:42 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,738,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="3733318" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jul 2008 17:59:51 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m62HxmIA006560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:59:49 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:59:48 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Doug Ewell Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:59:46 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) Thread-Index: AcjcaGzBJejSjEP4Tsm6FR/+jC9K8gAAw+Dg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B882ED3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> <20080702172357.GR31666@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080702172357.GR31666@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > 2. Define all of the Y forms (e.g. "cmn") in the Registry as > Type: > > extlang, none as Type: language. Bear with me here. > > Presumably this is meant to exclude the ones which are already in > as > languages? I don't think we want to allow sh-bos, for example. We would have to do this. Further, we'd need to make stability rules related to it and these would likely be somewhat complicated. You wouldn't want only some of the enclosed languages of a macrolanguage to be included, for example. This is, basically, a lot of the messy logic from draft-14 that we scrapped to get the current compromise position. Only more so. > This breaks the invariant that subtags are deprecated iff they have > a > "Deprecated:" field, but that's tolerable (-16 makes all the > extlangs > deprecated with a Preferred-Value of themselves, interpreted as a > full > tag rather than as a subtag). We have two semantics of "deprecated" at work here: we allow subtags to be formally deprecated with a Preferred-Value (that's the current setup). But Doug is talking about deprecating specific tag forms (which the registry would have a hard time indicating). Hence all my blather about canonical in my last email. > > More seriously, though, it breaks the invariant that the syntactic > slot > "language" is filled only with "language" subtags. Currently this > invariant applies to all four kinds of subtags, and I think it's an > important part of Getting It Right for people who haven't read all > the > fine print: once you clear away the grandfathered rubbish, you can > just > take the Cartesian product of the four lists of subtags as a rough > guide > to validity. This is certainly a Good Thing about the current design. In fact, my current implementation relies on it rather heavily and I think is somewhat elegant because of it. All this extra mappy cruft from the registry makes for fairly ugly complications. > > This is where we go from Grotty Compromise to Seriously Nasty. > 639-3 is > free to change a language from independent to encompassed or vice > versa > at any time, and then the carefully crafted scheme goes down the > toilet. Hence: stability rules. The problem being that these are likely to be complicated. Something like: - if a language is assigned and it has a macrolanguage and that macrolanguage's other encompassed languages are extlangs, then so is this one. - if a language is changed to be encompassed and the macrolanguage's other encompassed languages are extlangs, then so is this one. - if a language is changed from encompassed to individual and it is an extlang, it remains an extlang (old tags still valid), but the extlang form is deprecated (somehow?) - if a language was at some point encompassed by one language and later by another language, file a complaint retag your data as "und". > > I continue to think that the best defense against cherry-picking > complaints is to say we are doing this for backward compatibility, > and we need backward compatibility only for "zh" and "sgn", period. +1 > (In this scheme I think it might make sense to restore the table > from > -14 that explains that the macrolanguage tag is preferred for > Konkani, > Malay, Swahili, and Uzbek.) +1 Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 2 12:33:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F863A686A; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:33:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35A003A686A for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:33:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6zMUxJbHhSYB for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 976D33A6863 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:33:18 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=iIbhhVFMcz9CWg+w2LP0nOee9tYYz5ouiHCGDQ4HbBJ9bgJNS+kFboEpc+wCA4VD; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.167.78.99] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KE84z-0006kK-R9 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:33:26 -0400 Message-ID: <002f01c8dc7a$b94e5ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> <20080702172357.GR31666@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:35:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b311fbd41e3a0f371b83a0dbb56b862e71350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.167.78.99 Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "John Cowan" > To: "Doug Ewell" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:23 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) ... > > 3. Change the prose (and ABNF if necessary) to specify that an > > "extlang" can be used either alone, as "cmn" (Y), or together with its > > Prefix, as "zh-cmn" (X-Y). In other words, an "extlang" is a special > > type of "language" that has an optional Prefix. Specify that the Y form > > is "preferred" and the X-Y form is "deprecated," using the clearly > > specified, watered-down definition of "deprecated" from item 1. > > This breaks the invariant that subtags are deprecated iff they have a > "Deprecated:" field, but that's tolerable (-16 makes all the extlangs > deprecated with a Preferred-Value of themselves, interpreted as a full > tag rather than as a subtag). > > More seriously, though, it breaks the invariant that the syntactic slot > "language" is filled only with "language" subtags. Currently this > invariant applies to all four kinds of subtags, and I think it's an > important part of Getting It Right for people who haven't read all the > fine print: once you clear away the grandfathered rubbish, you can just > take the Cartesian product of the four lists of subtags as a rough guide > to validity. > > I would rather keep -16's scheme than this, frankly. Though I think I see where the logic is going, I have the same trouble with this part of the proposal. > > 4. Apply this logic to all encompassed languages, not just those > > belonging to a cherry-picked set of macrolanguages plus "sgn". For > > extra credit, figure out how to make this work with changing ISO 639-3 > > groupings. > > This is where we go from Grotty Compromise to Seriously Nasty. 639-3 is > free to change a language from independent to encompassed or vice versa > at any time, and then the carefully crafted scheme goes down the toilet. > > I continue to think that the best defense against cherry-picking > complaints is to say we are doing this for backward compatibility, > and we need backward compatibility only for "zh" and "sgn", period. I'm sympathetic to this line of reasoning, but I find the analogy for things like ar-arb too persuasive to fully agree to the limitation. > (In this scheme I think it might make sense to restore the table from > -14 that explains that the macrolanguage tag is preferred for Konkani, > Malay, Swahili, and Uzbek.) I think this would be a step in the wrong direction. The macrolanguage tag by itself should always have the meaning "this is some kind of X, but we're not able / willing to say precisely which kind." Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 2 14:44:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54FA83A6947; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:44:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8A53A6947 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:44:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.394 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.394 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.205, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pUyWqpKElhIX for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E69A3A6833 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KEA8O-0002yP-BH; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:45:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:45:04 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080702214504.GL31218@mercury.ccil.org> References: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> <20080702172357.GR31666@mercury.ccil.org> <002f01c8dc7a$b94e5ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002f01c8dc7a$b94e5ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > I continue to think that the best defense against cherry-picking > > complaints is to say we are doing this for backward compatibility, > > and we need backward compatibility only for "zh" and "sgn", period. > > I'm sympathetic to this line of reasoning, but I find the analogy for things > like ar-arb too persuasive to fully agree to the limitation. Fine, but where do we stop? The only valid tag for Malay right now is 'ms', so that's what people use. Almost all Malay written content is Standard Malay, a language that didn't even have its own code element until the last round of 639-3 changes, where it was split off from "Malay (individual language)" which now means the varieties of non-standard Malay varieties that are close enough to Standard Malay not to be classified as separate Malayan languages. (At the code element level, the older code element for "Malay (individual language) was retired to avoid narrowing. This is very much like Arabic and Chinese. So as you see, we are cherry-picking already. -- Unless it was by accident that I had John Cowan offended someone, I never apologized. cowan@ccil.org --Quentin Crisp http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 2 18:12:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA9F43A686E; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 18:12:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED533A686E for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 18:12:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.629 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.629 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEkgdGhpbmsgaXQgYSBtaXN0YWtlIHRvIHdhdGVyIGRvd24gImRlcHJlY2F0ZWQiLgoKSWYgeW91 IHdhbnQgImRlcHJlY2F0ZWQiIHRvIGhhdmUgaXRzIG9yaWdpbmFsIHN0cm9uZyBtZWFuaW5nIG9m ICJTSE9VTEQgCk5PVCwiIHRoYXQgaXMgZmluZSwgYnV0IHdlIE1VU1QgYmUgY29uc2lzdGVudCBh Ym91dCBpdC4gIFdlIG5lZWQgdG8gc3RvcCAKZ2l2aW5nIHBlb3BsZSB0aGUgZmFsc2UgaW1wcmVz 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(Postfix) with SMTP id 91A793A63D2 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 20:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22339 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2008 03:00:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.22) with ESMTP; 03 Jul 2008 03:00:56 -0000 Message-ID: <391ED00AA50044189BB7AB0D43343B00@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:02:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IFRoZSBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlIHRhZyBieSBpdHNlbGYgc2hvdWxkIGFs d2F5cyBoYXZlIHRoZSBtZWFuaW5nICJ0aGlzIAo+IGlzIHNvbWUga2luZCBvZiBYLCBidXQgd2Un cmUgbm90IGFibGUgLyB3aWxsaW5nIHRvIHNheSBwcmVjaXNlbHkgd2hpY2ggCj4ga2luZC4iCgor MSB3aXRoIGd1c3RvLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAq ICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cx LmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZl c3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGIAoKX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QK THRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 2 21:54:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489FB3A6A6E; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:54:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D193A680A for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:54:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.566 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.566 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.967, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TVNFh18luA3G for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6253A683B for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:54:05 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,742,1204502400"; d="scan'208";a="3986080" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Jul 2008 04:54:14 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m634sBFY032704 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 3 Jul 2008 04:54:11 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:54:11 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:53:57 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) Thread-Index: AcjcrzXD3CmXxSqURSiW/XAyKp+xMQAF0TbA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B883562@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > I think it a mistake to water down "deprecated". > > If you want "deprecated" to have its original strong meaning of > "SHOULD > NOT," that is fine, but we MUST be consistent about it. We need to > stop > giving people the false impression, in drafts and mailing-list > conversation, that it will be acceptable to use deprecated tags or > subtags. No, we (at least most of us) have been consistent: it is always permitted that you can use a deprecated tag or subtag. From that perspective, it is "acceptable". However, it is not and has never been recommended. I have gone out of my way to open the door to people proposing that we deprecate in the other direction, noting why I don't prefer that position. But under no circumstances would I welcome a watered down deprecation. Either deprecate or don't. > We need to stop trying to placate people in the X-Y > versus Y > debate by saying it doesn't matter much which form is deprecated, > that > the difference is only one of matching and fallback. It will be a > major difference. +1. It matters a lot which form is deprecated in terms of how one implements matching. However, the difference in "deprecation direction" is much smaller than other differences. > > How is it "just a different set of arbitrariness" if we handle all > of > the encompassed languages the same way, instead of hand-selecting a > few > macrolanguages like "zh" and treating their encompassed languages > differently from, say, the languages encompassed by "fa"? There is inherent arbitrariness in the existing set (no, sh: take a bow), plus a certain amount of instability in 639-3's handling so far. And we've had plenty of discussions of languages such as Moldovan. Ultimately, the languages that matter are the very short list John Cowan and Peter Constable bruited awhile ago. The others we have allowed in out of a (I think misguided) sense of "fair play". I support John Cowan's observation that this is strictly a backwards compatibility mechanism, for which we have a specific list of languages. > > Is everyone satisfied with this explanation of why these particular > languages were chosen? Yes, except you missed 'sgn'. > > I withdraw the radical proposal, but I hope it got us thinking a > little about some of these issues. No reason to withdraw it: it is an option. As noted, I'm okay with certain aspects of it. What we need is a sense of whether we have a consensus for something. All of these proposals ring hollow for me because they seem to be addressing inchoate fears of what someone *might* say about the proposed document, not what people have actually said. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 3 15:43:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933CC3A6844; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:43:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32BE3A6868 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:43:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Es2Ofhj5GO8I for ; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85033A67E2 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:43:27 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:43:27 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:43:25 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) Thread-Index: AcjcjO0ealPiu/UaSlCFnQcgIIO1NwA0Nhug Message-ID: References: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> <20080702172357.GR31666@mercury.ccil.org> <002f01c8dc7a$b94e5ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080702214504.GL31218@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080702214504.GL31218@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > John Cowan > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 2:45 PM > > I'm sympathetic to this line of reasoning, but I find the analogy for > things > > like ar-arb too persuasive to fully agree to the limitation. > > Fine, but where do we stop? The only valid tag for Malay right now is > 'ms', so that's what people use... There is a slight difference between the zh case and cases like ms and ar in that for zh we have known, explicit usage of that single ID for what are widely recognized to be distinct languages with separate business relevance. Currently, that's not the case (that I know of) for ar or ms. (Of course, that could change.) Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 3 19:10:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B433A688A; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 19:10:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493EF3A6886 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 19:10:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xt26YwhWd9a1 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Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ PiAuLi4gV2UgbmVlZCB0byBzdG9wIGdpdmluZyBwZW9wbGUgdGhlIGZhbHNlIGltcHJlc3Npb24s IGluIGRyYWZ0cyBhbmQgCj4+IG1haWxpbmctbGlzdCBjb252ZXJzYXRpb24sIHRoYXQgaXQgd2ls bCBiZSBhY2NlcHRhYmxlIHRvIHVzZSAKPj4gZGVwcmVjYXRlZCB0YWdzIG9yIHN1YnRhZ3MuCj4K PiBObywgd2UgKGF0IGxlYXN0IG1vc3Qgb2YgdXMpIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBjb25zaXN0ZW50OiBpdCBp cyBhbHdheXMgCj4gcGVybWl0dGVkIHRoYXQgeW91IGNhbiB1c2UgYSBkZXByZWNhdGVkIHRhZyBv ciBzdWJ0YWcuIEZyb20gdGhhdCAKPiBwZXJzcGVjdGl2ZSwgaXQgaXMgImFjY2VwdGFibGUiLiBI b3dldmVyLCBpdCBpcyBub3QgYW5kIGhhcyBuZXZlciBiZWVuIAo+IHJlY29tbWVuZGVkLgoKSWYg dGFnZ2VycyBhcmUgdG9sZCBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDMuMS41IHRoYXQgInZhbGlkYXRpbmcgcHJvY2Vz 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bHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 07:38:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01EB3A68DF; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:38:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B3D3A68DF for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:38:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yn4OFabjTNVk for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4248B3A65A6 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:38:33 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:38:33 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Martin Duerst , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:38:28 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) Thread-Index: AcjfLVEFat0qhFNmTnu6QXf6BLWUxQBDpnwg Message-ID: References: <94CC471674DE4119B6E1FC4AA47929C3@DGBP7M81> <20080702172357.GR31666@mercury.ccil.org> <002f01c8dc7a$b94e5ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080702214504.GL31218@mercury.ccil.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20080704162522.0935b168@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080704162522.0935b168@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Well, in the case of zh, we have no choice about "zh=yue" etc.: those tags are out there in the wild already. But no such extlang-form tags exist yet for ar, nor has that been used explicitly to mean distinct languages, making it pre-conditioned, so to speak, for extlang use: it is still an option to leave "ar" to legacy usage, and to tag the more granular Arabic distinctions "arb", "aao", etc. without the extlang form. (A small correction wrt ms: MARC explicitly describes the corresponding alpha-3 ID "may" as being used for "Pelambang Malay" as well as for "Malay". It's not clear to me exactly what is meant by "Pelambang Malay" or how it relates to existing entries in ISO 639-3.) Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 12:29 AM > To: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) > > Peter - Just a clarifying question: > > Are you saying that zh has been used for both Mandarin and Cantonese > (and others), whereas ar has only been used for Standard Arabic, and > ms has only been used for Standard Malay, at least as far as business- > relevant languages? > > In my eyes, that would make a stronger suggestion for keeping ms and > ar (i.e. going the extlang way) than for keeping zh. > > Can you confirm or explain further? > > Regards, Martin. > > At 07:43 08/07/04, Peter Constable wrote: > >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of > >> John Cowan > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 2:45 PM > > > > > >> > I'm sympathetic to this line of reasoning, but I find the analogy > for > >> things > >> > like ar-arb too persuasive to fully agree to the limitation. > >> > >> Fine, but where do we stop? The only valid tag for Malay right now > is > >> 'ms', so that's what people use... > > > >There is a slight difference between the zh case and cases like ms and > ar > >in that for zh we have known, explicit usage of that single ID for > what are > >widely recognized to be distinct languages with separate business > >relevance. Currently, that's not the case (that I know of) for ar or > ms. > >(Of course, that could change.) > > > > > >Peter > >_______________________________________________ > >Ltru mailing list > >Ltru@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp > mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 08:02:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00B33A6AED; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A6743A6AED for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:02:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.555 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.555 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mpvDhRBhW+gs for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF483A6A4C for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:01:59 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:01:59 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:01:55 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjgQmVf26txAs3ARpWThJ6ipKWgVQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This paragraph doesn't make complete sense to me: --------------------- Although case distinctions do not carry meaning in language tags, consistent formatting and presentation of the tags will aid users. The format of the tags and subtags in the registry is RECOMMENDED. In this format, all subtags, including all those following singletons (that is, in extension or private-use sequences) are in lowercase. The exceptions to this are: all other non-initial two-letter subtags are uppercase and all other non-initial four-letter subtags are titlecase. --------------------- The format of subtags in the registry uses case as recommended by the various ISO standards. Thus, why does this suggest that for the format in the registry "all subtags... are in lowercase"? Also, "...all other non-initial two-letter subtags..." - other than what? I can't suggest alternate wording since it's not at all clear to me what was intended. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 08:18:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1EE3A69EC; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92C13A6A3C for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:18:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UKkzftGELLWg for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from el-out-1112.google.com (el-out-1112.google.com [209.85.162.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A578C3A6870 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so160388ele.13 for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 08:18:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=iptMfA/F1x7K8N1mMiXbmgNu+iKbKuaulwWsq/dUGzI=; b=E+cQv7RRADxGIL10fa1qoFv3r1D64RRoc9jrn6lQbBHVgsJICmYOOpaHzaBHwfYHqV oWWyEuyuTiJqx5VgPzkK97uy4u2YDvLqU45IPXgEkHCeUupDzkSfb8iByrT7xHLHjRkO CVMoXbKHAub2Ih4U9wrePEVNTE54576QnACj8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=wuw2/cTbxeop69pqIAmWz+V4ZsafCQO8uTAdUz6GgyQ1H1E5Xowdje8kyguWoTcPkF 3Ok2mOCLmPuga8lGpsj8doQsypZj9uonCjZMfWUtJiVJV189dWPIfQXHLWeyExEzYSpB S+GJL49hWS5YouJSIUHl5HsulLQo9wyd+pwc0= Received: by 10.151.158.2 with SMTP id k2mr8391567ybo.70.1215443937245; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 08:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807070818w3faa837bxf42e4a757c48c1bc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:18:57 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0a684cd8aa550a9d Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0752971836==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0752971836== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_22961_17211166.1215443937234" ------=_Part_22961_17211166.1215443937234 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline What was intended by that text is that (a) if you see non-initial xxxx, it should be Xxxx, and non-initial xx should be XX, and everything else should be lowercase. The alternative is (b) the script code be Xxxx and the region code be XX, and everything else should be lowercase. The difference is illustrated by en-US-x-AB vs en-US-x-ab. Option (b) would require slightly more smarts in parsing (you have to shift modes when you hit a singleton), so some people wanted (a). I have a slight preference for (b) but can live with (a). Mark On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Peter Constable wrote: > This paragraph doesn't make complete sense to me: > > --------------------- > Although case distinctions do not carry meaning in language tags, > consistent formatting and presentation of the tags will aid users. The > format of the tags and subtags in the registry is RECOMMENDED. In this > format, all subtags, including all those following singletons (that is, in > extension or private-use sequences) are in lowercase. The exceptions to this > are: all other non-initial two-letter subtags are uppercase and all other > non-initial four-letter subtags are titlecase. > --------------------- > > The format of subtags in the registry uses case as recommended by the > various ISO standards. Thus, why does this suggest that for the format in > the registry "all subtags... are in lowercase"? > > Also, "...all other non-initial two-letter subtags..." - other than what? > > I can't suggest alternate wording since it's not at all clear to me what > was intended. > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_22961_17211166.1215443937234 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline What was intended by that text is that (a) if you see non-initial xxxx, it should be Xxxx, and non-initial xx should be XX, and everything else should be lowercase. The alternative is (b) the script code be Xxxx and the region code be XX, and everything else should be lowercase. The difference is illustrated by en-US-x-AB vs en-US-x-ab.

Option (b) would require slightly more smarts in parsing (you have to shift modes when you hit a singleton), so some people wanted (a). I have a slight preference for (b) but can live with (a).

Mark

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
This paragraph doesn't make complete sense to me:

---------------------
Although case distinctions do not carry meaning in language tags, consistent formatting and presentation of the tags will aid users. The format of the tags and subtags in the registry is RECOMMENDED. In this format, all subtags, including all those following singletons (that is, in extension or private-use sequences) are in lowercase. The exceptions to this are: all other non-initial two-letter subtags are uppercase and all other non-initial four-letter subtags are titlecase.
---------------------

The format of subtags in the registry uses case as recommended by the various ISO standards. Thus, why does this suggest that for the format in the registry "all subtags... are in lowercase"?

Also, "...all other non-initial two-letter subtags..." - other than what?

I can't suggest alternate wording since it's not at all clear to me what was intended.



Peter
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_22961_17211166.1215443937234-- --===============0752971836== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0752971836==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 08:27:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7B23A68F3; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:27:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF563A6816 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:27:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NRJ66v0Pphwn for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C4E3A67EF for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:27:06 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:27:06 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:27:02 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2: wording Thread-Index: AcjgRefjo2lOMyiQQ/aToMAu4fCohA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 2.2: wording X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This wording, found in 2.2, is anomalous: ---------- The definitions in this section apply to the various subtags within the language tags defined by this document, excepting those "grandfathered" tags defined in Section 2.2.8 (Grandfathered Registrations). ---------- The reference to "this section" I take to mean all of section 2.2, including subsections 2.2.1 - 2.2.9. Thus, definitions in 2.2.8 are among "[t]he definitions in this section". I suggest the following revision: The definitions in this section apply to the various subtags within the language tags defined by this document. The "grandfathered" tags defined in Section 2.2.8 (Grandfathered Registrations) are exceptional: definitions in that section supersede definitions in other parts of Section 2.2. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 08:29:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D0B3A69F9; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:29:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12553A69F9 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:29:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6zrkZCgKdlcx for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4FE3A65A6 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KFseV-0007G3-IQ; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 11:29:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:29:19 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > This paragraph doesn't make complete sense to me: > > --------------------- > Although case distinctions do not carry meaning in language tags, > consistent formatting and presentation of the tags will aid users. The > format of the tags and subtags in the registry is RECOMMENDED. In > this format, all subtags, including all those following singletons > (that is, in extension or private-use sequences) are in lowercase. The > exceptions to this are: all other non-initial two-letter subtags are > uppercase and all other non-initial four-letter subtags are titlecase. I think striking the two instances of "other" deals with the problem: all subtags are lowercase, except for non-initial two-letter tags, which are uppercase, and non-initial four-letter tags, which are titlecase. (Come to think of it, that's probably a clearer wording; I hereby propose it.) Note that the "non-initial two-letter subtags need not be region subtags: we write sgn-BE-FR, for example. -- That you can cover for the plentiful John Cowan and often gaping errors, misconstruals, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan and disinformation in your posts cowan@ccil.org through sheer volume --that is another misconception. --Mike to Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 08:39:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0B03A6816; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:39:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787EF3A6AA8 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:39:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hZOzS+t8heGU for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 749B03A6816 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,317,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="6313013" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 07 Jul 2008 15:40:00 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m67FdxoK013629 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:40:00 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:39:59 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:39:57 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjgQmVf26txAs3ARpWThJ6ipKWgVQABJMKw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963A14@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > This paragraph doesn't make complete sense to me: > > --------------------- > Although case distinctions do not carry meaning in language tags, > consistent formatting and presentation of the tags will aid users. > The format of the tags and subtags in the registry is RECOMMENDED. > In this format, all subtags, including all those following > singletons (that is, in extension or private-use sequences) are in > lowercase. The exceptions to this are: all other non-initial two- > letter subtags are uppercase and all other non-initial four-letter > subtags are titlecase. > --------------------- > > The format of subtags in the registry uses case as recommended by > the various ISO standards. Thus, why does this suggest that for the > format in the registry "all subtags... are in lowercase"? The registered variants are all lowercase. Private use and extension sequences normalize to lower case. If you read the paragraph again you'll see that it describes simple rules for implementing a casing algorithm for language tags that doesn't rely on the registry. > > Also, "...all other non-initial two-letter subtags..." - other than > what? Other than the ISO 3166 codes, which are upper case, plus the grandfathered sgn-* cruft. But the words "other" and "non-initial" should not modify one-another. We should probably omit one of them. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 09:04:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB29628C11E; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A5D28C15A for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 09:04:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ugh4r6Leqwwn for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 09:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2DEB28C11E for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 09:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KFtCk-0002sV-KJ for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 12:04:42 -0400 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:04:42 -0400 To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20080707160442.GN3544@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] A radical proposal (was: Re: extlang & deprecation) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > (A small correction wrt ms: MARC explicitly describes the corresponding > alpha-3 ID "may" as being used for "Pelambang Malay" as well as for > "Malay". It's not clear to me exactly what is meant by "Pelambang Malay" > or how it relates to existing entries in ISO 639-3.) Deep confusions here. There is a city in southern Sumatra, the original capital of the empire of Srivijaya, with doubtful vocalism: Palembang seems to be the most common and usual name, but I find also Pelambang, Palambang, and Pelembang. There is only one Google hit for "Pelambang Malay", a document which also contains "Palembang Malay". There are many hits for this latter phrase, including Ethnologue, which tells us that it is an alternative name for the language Palembang, code 'plm'. Checking the 639-3 site tells us that 'plm' was retired in January 2008, merged into Musi, code 'mui', a Malayan language which is *not*, unfortunately, a member of the Malay macrolanguage, 'msa'. -- A: "Spiro conjectures Ex-Lax." John Cowan Q: "What does Pat Nixon frost her cakes with?" cowan@ccil.org --"Jeopardy" for generative semanticists http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 10:24:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EEC33A6824; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:24:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC103A67E3 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:24:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UhAK9jS+G4cN for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EEDE3A6824 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:24:08 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:24:08 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:24:07 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjgQmVf26txAs3ARpWThJ6ipKWgVQABJMKwAAO0d3A= Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963A14@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963A14@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > > This paragraph doesn't make complete sense to me: > > > > --------------------- > > Although case distinctions do not carry meaning in language tags, > > consistent formatting and presentation of the tags will aid users. > > The format of the tags and subtags in the registry is RECOMMENDED. > > In this format, all subtags, including all those following > > singletons (that is, in extension or private-use sequences) are in > > lowercase. The exceptions to this are: all other non-initial two- > > letter subtags are uppercase and all other non-initial four-letter > > subtags are titlecase. > > --------------------- > The registered variants are all lowercase. Private use and extension > sequences normalize to lower case. If you read the paragraph again > you'll see that it describes simple rules for implementing a casing > algorithm for language tags that doesn't rely on the registry. Perhaps that's the intent, but that's not at all clear from that wording. The wording says that *all* subtags are in lowercase. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 10:35:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6B33A6A74; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:35:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE013A6A74 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:35:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nP8U4rZJURzz for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from el-out-1112.google.com (el-out-1112.google.com [209.85.162.180]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58F4A3A69D1 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so200179ele.13 for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 10:35:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=gmgNzgbaCQ3bJwJhW2El/wY83+MD7UntxtgIVxRnmcQ=; b=cTG1bnh2je7oOjV1pXEcRwiIjc4wtumPgw7ZN0BGQ8BwhxDp/RxTzyP1KO3VB0rLKh OIlyd1QCvtiwhFvg9JqMaNmyQddnvaJ+XovN8jKqOa/fK8Ox7rs5B520lTI3LGgjKxXc D9sBvu0eVWiDtrnm3yjlBZ+ojoLAlDWeYX5Zg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=EUH7BBATK0WsYCwXVy2ofiMdzs7fF9uKUFZ1oLuftM1tor1mBywIyvqyjAcnTrR9Z8 C7aCuwqHLL8kQGKzVQliLCueoy3cMO5dxOLNkjssVbp7tsrNvO7z+tv84hOdNmWDbAmP xScw69XpTSDEhmQh4DpqpGUvbplGi/h5kcd9I= Received: by 10.150.52.2 with SMTP id z2mr8610311ybz.45.1215452122079; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 10:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:35:22 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: ffee013a264cd008 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1447880961==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1447880961== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_23699_14074876.1215452122056" ------=_Part_23699_14074876.1215452122056 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1 I think that'd be clearer wording. Mark On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:29 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Peter Constable scripsit: > > > This paragraph doesn't make complete sense to me: > > > > --------------------- > > Although case distinctions do not carry meaning in language tags, > > consistent formatting and presentation of the tags will aid users. The > > format of the tags and subtags in the registry is RECOMMENDED. In > > this format, all subtags, including all those following singletons > > (that is, in extension or private-use sequences) are in lowercase. The > > exceptions to this are: all other non-initial two-letter subtags are > > uppercase and all other non-initial four-letter subtags are titlecase. > > I think striking the two instances of "other" deals with the problem: > all subtags are lowercase, except for non-initial two-letter tags, which > are uppercase, and non-initial four-letter tags, which are titlecase. > > (Come to think of it, that's probably a clearer wording; I hereby > propose it.) > > Note that the "non-initial two-letter subtags need not be region subtags: > we write sgn-BE-FR, for example. > > -- > That you can cover for the plentiful John Cowan > and often gaping errors, misconstruals, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > and disinformation in your posts cowan@ccil.org > through sheer volume --that is another > misconception. --Mike to Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_23699_14074876.1215452122056 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1 I think that'd be clearer wording.

Mark

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:29 AM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Peter Constable scripsit:

> This paragraph doesn't make complete sense to me:
>
> ---------------------
> Although case distinctions do not carry meaning in language tags,
> consistent formatting and presentation of the tags will aid users. The
> format of the tags and subtags in the registry is RECOMMENDED. In
> this format, all subtags, including all those following singletons
> (that is, in extension or private-use sequences) are in lowercase. The
> exceptions to this are: all other non-initial two-letter subtags are
> uppercase and all other non-initial four-letter subtags are titlecase.

I think striking the two instances of "other" deals with the problem:
all subtags are lowercase, except for non-initial two-letter tags, which
are uppercase, and non-initial four-letter tags, which are titlecase.

(Come to think of it, that's probably a clearer wording; I hereby
propose it.)

Note that the "non-initial two-letter subtags need not be region subtags:
we write sgn-BE-FR, for example.

--
That you can cover for the plentiful            John Cowan
and often gaping errors, misconstruals,         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
and disinformation in your posts                cowan@ccil.org
through sheer volume --that is another
misconception.  --Mike to Peter
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_23699_14074876.1215452122056-- --===============1447880961== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1447880961==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 10:48:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8CD3A6A73; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:48:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036743A6A70 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:48:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.761, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gaPrDMq1K-4W for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3A73A6A73 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:48:31 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:48:29 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis , John Cowan Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:48:28 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 2.1: casing 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_______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1831607430==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 10:51:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100DF3A6AE2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:51:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D7273A6AE2 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:51:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost 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Mark Davis , John Cowan Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:50:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjgV92TKBjkYqugT8m3Uwkjho87NwAAZmYwAAAVBiA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963C93@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1320254866==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1320254866== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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(PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24FF28C173 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:51:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.99 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.391, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CsojdZE58v0P for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F8328C122 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:51:31 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:51:31 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:51:30 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.1: definition of "primary language subtag" Thread-Index: AcjgWhY2mEb4tW5HR+ycavds+y/vOA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.1: definition of "primary language subtag" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This wording is somewhat vague: ---------- The primary language subtag is the first subtag in a language tag (with the exception of private use and certain grandfathered tags) and cannot be omitted. ---------- It's not clear if that statement is intended as a definition of "primary language subtag", or as a descriptive statement. If the former, then that defition is vague (*which* grandfathered tags?). If the latter, then "primary language subtag" is nowhere defined. I assume it's intended as a definition. For that, I suggest the following alternate wording: ---------- The primary language subtag is the first subtag in the language production of the ABNF shown in Section 2.1: language = 2*3ALPHA ; shortest ISO 639 code ["-" extlang] ; sometimes followed by ; extended language subtags / 4ALPHA ; or reserved for future use / 5*8ALPHA ; or registered language subtag Except in the case of private-use tags and certain grandfathered tags, the primary language subtag cannot be omitted. ---------- Then, in points 1 to 8 that follow, there is inconsistency in wording: in some places "primary language subtag"; in other places, "language subtag"; and in others, just "subtags". Better consistency would be good, though not essential, except that I would change "primary subtag" in 6 and 8 to "first subtag": "primary subtag" is too confusable with "primary language subtag", which 6 and 8 are *not* referring to. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 10:58:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D0C53A6A70; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:58:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CBD3A691C for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:58:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rb5T87sVYJcm for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.184]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3294F3A6824 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m36so431494rnd.18 for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 10:58:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=J5MH3kiy/8dnxD4dbShltwl6wiPk9Uh6U9o0yi/D8jE=; b=RlgKA0RqbCsU5ZyWcoMfLPzUUvgnqKYrEAoM3xXNeC9dryHV3XqzAxfuCd67CrRSV8 7IRmqdDBJaf+fKpvglkdIUXTHOBOCxX2/XWxlNCeV9nD7LeIxOh/PhKR1XBOMVRtH3b0 Lja1SZ/b7SAfKc96q2cJjVHvfQuOr7NeI/Ttw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=AHYdjAkv/cjNyY5sjVvznDc06Hv1/cJOeiBHIGosQAsioDGu/Zal3J34pSL5Eb2+o6 BdwGyLXCIRqLtgrQTqZmp6HWkhOtK4eAnexJ3cr2+tbjVLlOEfsPLm0G4dAGQTmZrS9s sNKigNW5HuBbPZEPM1HJlL3H0fnawyu8Bem00= Received: by 10.151.38.11 with SMTP id q11mr267161ybj.101.1215453535794; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 10:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807071058t24298681h5048d7fb0bdf3e04@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:58:55 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: e0130ca9bc016e8b Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0439616391==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 11:08:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3988D28C0E8; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:08:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B4BA3A6A80 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:08:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.924 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.924 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.674, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6jfxds5O-nKM for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA9328C0E8 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:08:08 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:08:08 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:08:07 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjgV92TKBjkYqugT8m3Uwkjho87NwAAZmYwAAAVBiAAAGs+oA== Message-ID: References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963C93@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> 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with ESMTP id m67IHnQP020566 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 7 Jul 2008 18:17:50 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:17:49 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Peter Constable Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:17:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjgWyQFGSd+dkw5RUClOiiCndQycAAAo75g Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963D22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807071058t24298681h5048d7fb0bdf3e04@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807071058t24298681h5048d7fb0bdf3e04@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org 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--===============0662724302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0662724302==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 11:30:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9C628C17D; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:30:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B9A28C173 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:30:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.422, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n4TXvOA-vvDG for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B560428C17D for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:30:14 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:30:14 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:30:13 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.3: position of script subtag Thread-Index: AcjgX37GnSLXaHMZQB2xX/t3FWd+8w== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.3: position of script subtag X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Draft 16 currently has this wording: ------------- 1. Script subtags MUST follow the primary language subtag and MUST precede any other type of subtag. ------------- Assuming that "primary language subtag" means only the first subtag in the language production and does not include any extlang portion, that statement appears to preclude tags with both an extlang and a script, such as zh-cmn-Hant. Suggested revision: ------------- 1. Script subtags MUST follow the primary language subtag as well as any extlang subtags, and MUST precede any other type of subtag. ------------- Also, there appears to be some extraneous text in the next item: ------------- 2. All four-character subtags were defined according to [ISO15924]--"Codes for the representation of the names of scripts": alpha-4 script codes, or subsequently assigned by the ISO 15924 registration authority... ------------- I don't see the purpose of "alpha-4 script codes" after he title. Suggested revision: ------------- 2. All four-character subtags were defined according to [ISO15924]--"Codes for the representation of the names of scripts", or using assignments subsequently made by the ISO 15924 registration authority... ------------- Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 11:31:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15E028C165; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:31:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7793A6816 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:31:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.968 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.968 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.630, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EuE+vclciBPn for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C9A28C178 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:31:10 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:31:09 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , Mark Davis Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:31:09 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjgWyQFGSd+dkw5RUClOiiCndQycAAAo75gAAB5cEA= Message-ID: References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807071058t24298681h5048d7fb0bdf3e04@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963D22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963D22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0642893730==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0642893730== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: 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--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB835795633901FD80NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============0642893730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0642893730==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 11:54:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734623A6948; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:54:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE98D3A6948 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:54:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wnFX6Rq8qxX3 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6FF3A689B for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:54:43 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:54:42 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:54:42 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in 4645 Thread-Index: AcjgYuoz2jX3TjXMQKW1+zzHaTij5g== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in 4645 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Draft 16 currently has this wording: ------------ E. UN numeric codes and ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 codes for countries or areas listed as eligible for registration in [RFC4645] but not presently registered MAY be entered into the IANA registry via the process described in Section 3.5 (Registration Procedure for Subtags). Once registered, these codes MAY be used to form language tags. ------------ The intended reference isn't clear: I don't see a M.46 or 3166-1 codes listed in 4645 as eligible for registration. (The closest I see are a set of M.49 codes that are *in*eligible for registration.) Is this paragraph an anachronism that is no longer needed? If it still has a useful purpose, then it might help to clear up the wording. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 13:08:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70D03A6915; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:08:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DCE3A6915 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:08:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.994 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.994 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.395, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v+PECppEiGTJ for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF6A3A68FA for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:08:26 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:08:25 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:08:24 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.6: requirements on extensions Thread-Index: AcjgbTZaVtulpRthSBGDjIih7WJHLQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.6: requirements on extensions X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Draft 16 currently has this wording in Section 2.2.6: -------------- 5. Extension subtags MUST meet all of the requirements for the content and format of subtags defined in this document. -------------- IMO, this is so vague as to be un-enforceable. E.g., does rule 2 for script subtags (alpha 4 come from ISO 15924) apply? (Surely not.) Thus, it's not clear to me what value this item adds. I think it could be dropped without loss. Btw, item 3 in that same list is not a separate rule; it is a tangential note related to what is discussed in 2, and does not pertain directly to extensions. I suggest that the text in that paragraph should not be a separately-numbered item in that list, but should just be a parenthetic not appended to item 2. (I.e. the item currently numbered 4 would get renumbered to 3, etc.) Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 13:13:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715C13A6915; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:13:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD133A6915 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:13:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.958 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.958 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.359, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7IMBPxoMAQue for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E513A6876 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:13:44 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:13:44 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:13:44 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.6: extensions within overall tag syntax Thread-Index: AcjgbfSlwgbcEOsRQtaWPR8IdagOyw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.6: extensions within overall tag syntax X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Draft 16 currently has this text in Section 2.2.6: -------------- Extension subtags MUST follow all language, script, region, and variant subtags in a tag. -------------- I suggest a revision to the following: -------------- Extension subtags MUST follow all language, script, region, and variant subtags in a tag, but MUST precede any private-use subtag sequences. -------------- Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 13:17:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24783A6B14; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:17:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A79423A6B14 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:17:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rDpQtosVeaKr for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.190]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with 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by 10.151.142.2 with SMTP id u2mr8803091ybn.184.1215461833801; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807071317i2a532353j7ed1874996784bc5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:17:13 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807071058t24298681h5048d7fb0bdf3e04@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963D22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 73d0edc6c21f1ca1 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0746022886==" Sender: 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------=_Part_24717_12298903.1215461833819-- --===============0746022886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0746022886==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 13:20:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A05F3A6B13; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:20:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3553A6B1C for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.928 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.928 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.330, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JQ2qcrCYM7MZ for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC873A6AE3 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:20:38 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:20:38 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:20:34 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.8: typo Thread-Index: AcjgbulsLcJ+570ZQKiYGZZY1OHsVA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: AlPW AnN8 A9ue A9wO Ba7I CLvA Dg+b D2jC EQwQ GAZp G6P0 HtQN IUY3 Jnzi K4u4 LLsC; 1; bAB0AHIAdQBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA=; Sosha1_v1; 7; {985B2BF4-5A6C-4EFC-8E9D-57F7712390F5}; cABlAHQAZQByAGMAbwBuAEAAbQBpAGMAcgBvAHMAbwBmAHQALgBjAG8AbQA=; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:20:34 GMT;MgAuADIALgA4ADoAIAB0AHkAcABvAA== x-cr-puzzleid: {985B2BF4-5A6C-4EFC-8E9D-57F7712390F5} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.8: typo X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Draft 16 currently has this text in Section 2.2.8: -------------- Many of the grandfathered tags have been superseded the subsequent addition of new subtags... -------------- I suggest the following revision. -------------- Many of the grandfathered tags have been superseded by the subsequent addition of new subtags... -------------- Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 14:48:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D813A69D6; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:48:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E4A3A67B1 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:47:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a0gZgBWmprp7 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6356F3A697C for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:47:35 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,318,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="83661911" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 07 Jul 2008 21:47:41 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m67Llddd029242 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:47:39 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:47:38 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:47:37 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.8: typo Thread-Index: AcjgbulsLcJ+570ZQKiYGZZY1OHsVAADCPOQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94193@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.8: typo X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Already corrected in the editor's copy. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 1:21 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.8: typo > > Draft 16 currently has this text in Section 2.2.8: > > -------------- > Many of the grandfathered tags have been superseded the subsequent > addition of new subtags... > -------------- > > I suggest the following revision. > -------------- > Many of the grandfathered tags have been superseded by the > subsequent addition of new subtags... > -------------- > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 14:50:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A08D3A697C; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:50:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE2F3A6876 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4aLmNPIFH-q7 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F963A697C for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:50:08 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,318,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="73322349" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 07 Jul 2008 21:50:13 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m67LoDYA001706 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:50:13 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:50:11 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:50:10 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.6: extensions within overall tag syntax Thread-Index: AcjgbfSlwgbcEOsRQtaWPR8IdagOywADVX2w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA941A5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.6: extensions within overall tag syntax X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org It goes without saying that they precede private-use sequences. But I made the change anyway. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 1:14 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.6: extensions within overall tag syntax > > Draft 16 currently has this text in Section 2.2.6: > > -------------- > Extension subtags MUST follow all language, script, region, and > variant subtags in a tag. > -------------- > > I suggest a revision to the following: > > -------------- > Extension subtags MUST follow all language, script, region, and > variant subtags in a tag, but MUST precede any private-use subtag > sequences. > -------------- > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 15:01:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729703A6B70; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:01:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19D13A6B5B for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:01:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id azldhK2ACkrz for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604AC28C2E8 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:01:13 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,318,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="6559438" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 07 Jul 2008 22:01:19 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m67M1GM5022012 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:01:17 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:01:16 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:01:15 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.6: requirements on extensions Thread-Index: AcjgbTZaVtulpRthSBGDjIih7WJHLQADyt4w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA941DA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.6: requirements on extensions X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This appears to be redundant, since we have this bullet item nearby that more-directly accomplishes the same thing. The only other addition that seems to be implied here is the one about case, so I added on to the end of the bullet so that it reads thusly: Each extension subtag MUST be from two to eight characters long and consist solely of letters or digits, with each subtag separated by a single '-'. Case distinctions are ignored in extensions (as with any language subtag) and normalized subtags of this type are expected to be in lowercase. > Btw, item 3 in that same list is not a separate rule; it is a > tangential note related to what is discussed in 2, and does not > pertain directly to extensions. I suggest that the text in that > paragraph should not be a separately-numbered item in that list, > but should just be a parenthetic not appended to item 2. (I.e. the > item currently numbered 4 would get renumbered to 3, etc.) I merged the current item 3 with its preceding paragraph. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 1:08 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.6: requirements on extensions > > Draft 16 currently has this wording in Section 2.2.6: > > -------------- > 5. Extension subtags MUST meet all of the requirements for the > content and format of subtags defined in this document. > -------------- > > IMO, this is so vague as to be un-enforceable. E.g., does rule 2 > for script subtags (alpha 4 come from ISO 15924) apply? (Surely > not.) Thus, it's not clear to me what value this item adds. I think > it could be dropped without loss. > > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 15:19:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972FC3A6977; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:19:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE9E3A685E for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.750, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mUELrfvdP742 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD013A6977 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:19:03 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,318,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="6567513" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 07 Jul 2008 22:19:10 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m67MJAEJ029663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:19:10 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:19:09 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:19:08 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in 4645 Thread-Index: AcjgYuoz2jX3TjXMQKW1+zzHaTij5gAG/OqA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA9422D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in 4645 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org It is still valid. The reference in question in RFC 4645 is: -- 4. Omitted Code Elements The following code elements from [UN_M.49] were not associated with [ISO3166-1] alpha-2 code elements. Consequently, they were not assigned as subtags in the initial Language Subtag Registry, but were valid candidates for registration as region subtags, using the process in [RFC4646]: 830 Channel Islands 831 Guernsey 832 Jersey 833 Isle of Man The last three became ineligible for registration in April, 2006, when the [ISO3166-1] code elements GG, JE, and IM were assigned as region subtags. -- Thus, '830' is still valid for registration. At one time, the rules were even more permissive (hence this text). Incidentally, this reference is why RFC 4645 is still a normative reference in draft-4646bis. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 11:55 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in > 4645 > > Draft 16 currently has this wording: > > ------------ > E. UN numeric codes and ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 codes for countries or > areas listed as eligible for registration in [RFC4645] but not > presently registered MAY be entered into the IANA registry via the > process described in Section 3.5 (Registration Procedure for > Subtags). Once registered, these codes MAY be used to form language > tags. > ------------ > > The intended reference isn't clear: I don't see a M.46 or 3166-1 > codes listed in 4645 as eligible for registration. (The closest I > see are a set of M.49 codes that are *in*eligible for registration.) > Is this paragraph an anachronism that is no longer needed? If it > still has a useful purpose, then it might help to clear up the > wording. > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 15:44:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CFA3A69C0; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:44:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C5F93A69C0 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:44:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hGG2JvPfrxvm for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VA3EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (outbound-va3.frontbridge.com [216.32.180.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88E43A6781 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail30-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.250) by VA3EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (10.7.40.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:44:16 +0000 Received: from mail30-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail30-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF0021AF0464 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:44:16 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-39(zz7efVzzzz1033ILd6eMz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail30-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1215470655228903_18691; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:44:15 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (mail8.fw-sd.sony.com [160.33.66.75]) by mail30-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11AFF1040076; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:44:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m67MiEgb008361; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:44:14 GMT Received: from ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com (ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.78]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m67MiE8n007998; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:44:14 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.74]) by ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.78]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:44:11 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:42:58 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.6: extensions within overall tag syntax Thread-Index: AcjgbfSlwgbcEOsRQtaWPR8IdagOywAFNkEg Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.6: extensions within overall tag syntax X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I support this clarification based on the misinterpretations I've seen of this text in the wild. Karen ________________________________________ From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Constable [petercon@microsoft.com] Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 1:13 PM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.6: extensions within overall tag syntax Draft 16 currently has this text in Section 2.2.6: -------------- Extension subtags MUST follow all language, script, region, and variant subtags in a tag. -------------- I suggest a revision to the following: -------------- Extension subtags MUST follow all language, script, region, and variant subtags in a tag, but MUST precede any private-use subtag sequences. -------------- Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 20:12:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB123A6A5E; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:12:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443383A6A5E for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4aReUnb5fm+2 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E86183A697E for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22822 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2008 03:11:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.22) with ESMTP; 08 Jul 2008 03:11:02 -0000 Message-ID: <3372C3B6AB9C45A3B387EA743482E1BC@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:12:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSdtIGdsYWQgdGhpcyBnb3QgcmVzb2x2ZWQuICBJIHRoaW5rIGl0IHdvdWxkIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBz aWxseSB0byAKbm9ybWFsaXplIGV4dGVuc2lvbiBzdWJ0YWdzIHRvIGxvb2sgbGlrZSB0aGlzOgoK ZW4tYS1BVC1MYXN0LU1ZLVZlcnktb3duLWV4dGVuZGVkLUNvZGUKCm9yIHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIHN1 YnRhZ3MgbGlrZSB0aGlzOgoKZXMteC1Fc3RvLUVTLVBhcmEtTUktdXNvLXByaXZhZG8KCmZvciBh IHNsaWdodCBnYWluIGluIGVmZmljaWVuY3kgKndoZW4gbm9ybWFsaXppbmcgY2FwaXRhbGl6YXRp b24qIC0tIG5vdCAKd2hpbGUgZ2VuZXJhdGluZywgb3IgbWF0Y2hpbmcsIG9yIGZhbGxpbmcgYmFj aywgb3IgYW55dGhpbmcgaW1wb3J0YW50LgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xv cmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3Jn Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0 cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuG CgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 20:40:35 2008 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X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1240795503==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1240795503== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579563391179C6NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579563391179C6NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QnR3LCBJIG5vdGUgdGhhdCAzLjEuMyBkaXNjdXNzZXMgY2FzaW5nIGluIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IHJlY29y ZHMsIGFuZCBpdCBleHByZXNzZXMgdGhlIGV4Y2VwdGlvbnMgZGlyZWN0bHkgaW4gdGVybXMgb2Yg c2NyaXB0IGFuZCByZWdpb24uIEkgc3VwcG9zZSB0aGF0IGlzIGZpbmUgZm9yIHRoZSByZWdpc3Ry 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(PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650C33A67DB for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.354, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WOjeJ7x6gEyF for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E743A3A67E3 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:40:48 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:40:48 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:40:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: 3.1.2: extended language range not defined Thread-Index: AcjgrGdlT4WUztW0QNC+HuX8qPz44Q== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 3.1.2: extended language range not defined X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org In draft 16, there's a reference in Section 3.1.2 in the part on the Preferred-Value field to "extended language range". That term is not defined in the draft for 4646bis, however. Either a definition should be given in this doc, or a reference provided to another doc in which it is defined. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 21:03:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E873A67DB; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42E03A67DB for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:03:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.391 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.391 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.207, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UTRNscZ1v3G6 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.38]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0AAFC3A6784 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12500 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2008 04:03:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.38) with ESMTP; 08 Jul 2008 04:03:11 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:03:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in 4645 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:12:11 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:12:11 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:12:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjgsMfj5URTqGKXQ2q5nCIp3Iy7zg== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: ActH AefU Cnda CpoE C1Cd Do6x EU6P FJfQ FdLv Hf5h IThL IWID Ia3o JCqf KIVU Ktv3; 1; bAB0AHIAdQBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA=; Sosha1_v1; 7; {E1E9C60C-77D0-4537-A6BA-19851F575648}; cABlAHQAZQByAGMAbwBuAEAAbQBpAGMAcgBvAHMAbwBmAHQALgBjAG8AbQA=; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 04:12:05 GMT; MwAuADEALgA0ADoAIABkAGUAcwBjAHIAaQBwAHQAaQBvAG4AIABmAGkAZQBsAGQAIAB1AG4AaQBxAHUAZQBuAGUAcwBzAA== x-cr-puzzleid: {E1E9C60C-77D0-4537-A6BA-19851F575648} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Section 3.1.4 of the current draft has this wording: ---------------- Each 'Description' field MUST be unique, both within the record in which it appears and for the collection of records of the same type. ---------------- I'm not positive I understand the intent for the second requirement, unique "for the collection of records of the same type". It sounds like that's saying that, if (say) a language record has a description field with the value "foo", then no other language record can have a description "foo". If that's the case, then what about cases such as the records for the language subtags 'jv' and 'jw', both of which have a description "Javanese"? Would the following revised text be an improvement? ---------------- Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. Also, each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of records of the same type with the following exception: if a particular 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, then one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other records as Preferred-Value. ---------------- I think that covers the Javanese, Hebrew and such cases. (I still hope we don't one day down the road find it overly restrictive should, e.g., two 639-2 entries each have multiple language names, one of which is common to both.) Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 21:13:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F223A685F; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:13:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2353A68A5 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:13:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AAjfVbtM78lq for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EDFC3A67E3 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so1063679ywj.49 for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:13:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=TqArD7zx9E0rPrMxh1758lnvETmJBBOtTCEC7ivBKGs=; b=fzDqSEHGUrqsS//PQW3FQB8RLFFAAfvMbqlsG1DStlf/9Iy+y3E23Wyti5t6JOdh3Q CdusbVKOzlp+v/CLDyItvKSm0AxT3OHley0oTChJy7IqUIObgwworVd6KZpB2h9oKCa7 qTELclVmYnjSZGX3iwZUUAhUtZ2BGiHsZGca4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=g+M96mVh3tO1OUhOmawaoiQXgdipxZfnU7Do4R926K+E4H6aBtZA0TWsb1yr8j/HKw JOcrGfEyngEwMp+OnYrgc85CeBMz7HnACaK5DpC53e9HCF9zF6DTonIR6JLTAig1XkQh LTRKBNlHoE1RPqJneM4SYv+y7GOP7D251MnZA= Received: by 10.151.143.14 with SMTP id v14mr9556738ybn.64.1215490433751; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807072113s6282360fj28072982e6cf4be2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:13:53 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 26985f29df6f8d0c Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0251317067==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0251317067== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_26189_29354463.1215490433769" ------=_Part_26189_29354463.1215490433769 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1 Mark On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Peter Constable wrote: > Section 3.1.4 of the current draft has this wording: > > ---------------- > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique, both within the record in which it > appears and for the collection of records of the same type. > ---------------- > > I'm not positive I understand the intent for the second requirement, unique > "for the collection of records of the same type". It sounds like that's > saying that, if (say) a language record has a description field with the > value "foo", then no other language record can have a description "foo". > > If that's the case, then what about cases such as the records for the > language subtags 'jv' and 'jw', both of which have a description "Javanese"? > > Would the following revised text be an improvement? > > ---------------- > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. Also, each > 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of records of the > same type with the following exception: if a particular 'Description' field > occurs in multiple records of a given type, then one of those records MUST > be for a subtag listed in all the other records as Preferred-Value. > ---------------- > > I think that covers the Javanese, Hebrew and such cases. > > (I still hope we don't one day down the road find it overly restrictive > should, e.g., two 639-2 entries each have multiple language names, one of > which is common to both.) > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_26189_29354463.1215490433769 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1

Mark

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
Section 3.1.4 of the current draft has this wording:

----------------
Each 'Description' field MUST be unique, both within the record in which it appears and for the collection of records of the same type.
----------------

I'm not positive I understand the intent for the second requirement, unique "for the collection of records of the same type". It sounds like that's saying that, if (say) a language record has a description field with the value "foo", then no other language record can have a description "foo".

If that's the case, then what about cases such as the records for the language subtags 'jv' and 'jw', both of which have a description "Javanese"?

Would the following revised text be an improvement?

----------------
Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. Also, each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of records of the same type with the following exception: if a particular 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, then one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other records as Preferred-Value.
----------------

I think that covers the Javanese, Hebrew and such cases.

(I still hope we don't one day down the road find it overly restrictive should, e.g., two 639-2 entries each have multiple language names, one of which is common to both.)



Peter
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_26189_29354463.1215490433769-- --===============0251317067== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0251317067==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 21:23:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947633A67DB; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:23:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF623A67DB for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:23:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1BhAIBUy5kCh for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57CA83A635F for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so1064909ywj.49 for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:23:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; bh=R3OcRXdVHBtDhBWbOE+TGdPG/mj3upBoopV4c1YZIBs=; b=ejnHbRPSZxvtDFWXfg5vJlV12FaKLqjvOdAw26c15YEKYGUDgX5RoLgXhLJ0MctBWH FnLGGrQglT89WDioH3p58WxvbEKpJqXTvc/HgcgTgarh6JTFj437YDEJtgC+BqSjqLPF npcODeGdHYlxHYEbMnwcm/uXgpTsRMCQ+67Js= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type :x-google-sender-auth; b=f62RV51SqRgJ4EKf9mWkpsdaK0BWmRoDYI9ZCrnJsIxB/yGJs/EpFQ/sAoMTuJqVNM 0dFvWIX85D9utpf5VBNDriwM5tqpKCFFQn7z+8gwqziocF9GBQBXWJgKR9TgKmpx4d82 UddqyuZpJdzCyiS7R1whhHizTOcu2m34l125U= Received: by 10.151.12.4 with SMTP id p4mr5011838ybi.76.1215491028501; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807072123k471b95c4n985c34d77a42b5d0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:23:48 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 93daf84480df3825 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Possibly a way forward? (was extlang & deprecation (was draft updated...)) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1859341957==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1859341957== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_26220_18708953.1215491028521" ------=_Part_26220_18708953.1215491028521 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SSByYW4gdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBieSBhIGZldyBwZW9wbGUsIGFuZCBpdCBtYXkgb2ZmZXIgYSB3 YXkgb3V0IG9mIG91cgpjdXJyZW50IHNpdHVhdGlvbiwgIGJ5IHRha2luZyB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5n IHN0ZXBzLgoKICAgMS4gVGllICJQcmVmZXJyZWQgVmFsdWUiIG1vcmUgY2xvc2VseSB0byBjYW5v bmljYWxpemF0aW9uLgogICAyLiBEZWNvdXBsZSAiUHJlZmVycmVkIFZhbHVlIiBhbmQgIkRlcHJl Y2F0ZWQiOyBhIHN1YnRhZyBjYW4gaGF2ZQogICBhIFByZWZlcnJlZCBWYWx1ZSB3aXRob3V0IGJl 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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 21:33:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E5C28C0E8; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:33:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6411128C0E8 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:33:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.995 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.995 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.603, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xQVM8e5kByzF for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 71AA13A6405 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27216 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2008 04:33:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.33) with ESMTP; 08 Jul 2008 04:33:17 -0000 Message-ID: <0681BE3D1A994A1D8A30B8A54A7B21AF@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:33:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDxwZXRlcmNvbiBhdCBtaWNyb3NvZnQgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEFsc28sIGJ0dywgSSBub3RlIHRoYXQgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgcmVnaXN0cnkgZG9lc24ndCBzdHJp Y3RseSBmb2xsb3cgCj4gdGhlIHJ1bGUgZm9yIHRoZSBleGNlcHRpb24gdGhhdCB5b3UgZ2F2ZS4g SW4gcGFydGljdWxhciwgaXQgbGlzdHMgCj4gZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCB0YWdzICJzZ24tQkUtZnIi LCAic2duLUJFLW5sIiBhbmQgInNnbi1DSC1kZSIuCgpJdCBhbHNvIGxpc3RzICJ5aS1sYXRuIi4g IFRoZSBkcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzIFJlZ2lzdHJ5IGNoYW5nZXMgdGhlc2UuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxs ICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6 Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1 LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9p ZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 21:36:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F8FA28C0F7; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:36:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF8928C0F7 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:36:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.310, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RY2a3halrKpC for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D97428C0F2 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:37:04 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:37:03 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:36:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: 3.1.6: Preferred-Value field for extlangs Thread-Index: AcjgtEJNchrfD3MMSPiqM1WosghUIg== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 3.1.6: Preferred-Value field for extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The current draft has this text in Section 3.1.6: ------------- The 'Preferred-Value' field in subtag records of type "extlang" use the same format as grandfathered or redundant tags. This allows the subtag to be deprecated in favor of either a single primary language subtag or a new language-extlang sequence. ------------- It's not clear to me what's meant: in just what way is the format the same as for grandfathered or redundant tags? The requirements stated in 3.1.1 that apply to *all* fields would be one similarity, but obviously that's not what was in mind. Is it that the field "contains language ranges that are strongly RECOMMENDED for use in place of the record's value"? It's just not clear, but should be. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 21:40:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C56BA3A6808; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:40:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC50E3A6808 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:40:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.291, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zLI9BspWFmbX for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6873A6405 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:40:29 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:40:29 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:40:26 -0700 Thread-Topic: 3.1.2: extended language range not defined Thread-Index: AcjgrGdlT4WUztW0QNC+HuX8qPz44QACA+xQ Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.2: extended language range not defined X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Btw, "language range" or "extended language range" are also used in Sections 3.1.6, 3.1.7 and 4.1. Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Peter Constable > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 8:41 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 3.1.2: extended language range not defined > > In draft 16, there's a reference in Section 3.1.2 in the part on the > Preferred-Value field to "extended language range". That term is not > defined in the draft for 4646bis, however. Either a definition should > be given in this doc, or a reference provided to another doc in which > it is defined. > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 22:00:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99FA3A67E6; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:00:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B72D3A67E6 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:00:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o1tfNgb5eqrc for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9563F3A6405 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KG5Jt-0005jJ-AK; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:00:53 -0400 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 01:00:53 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. Also, > each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of > records of the same type with the following exception: if a particular > 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, then > one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other > records as Preferred-Value. I'd rather just abandon the restriction altogether and leave it up to the common sense of ietf-languages. -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org [T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin. Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which his theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral purpose in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory may have important survival value. --Ian Johnston _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 22:33:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49BC63A69D1; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:33:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF3F3A69D1 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:33:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pLPXeq0HAfA1 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB98228C0E0 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:33:17 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,321,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="73427748" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 05:33:19 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m685XHWF032569 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Jul 2008 05:33:18 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:33:17 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:32:54 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Doug Ewell Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:33:13 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Possibly a way forward? (was extlang & deprecation (was draft updated...)) Thread-Index: AcjgsnC7BawdPBmZQE6MhYLyEZikSQACG4Ww Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94604@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20807072123k471b95c4n985c34d77a42b5d0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807072123k471b95c4n985c34d77a42b5d0@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Possibly a way forward? (was extlang & deprecation (was draft updated...)) 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Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05493A68B4; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEBF3A68B4 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.402, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yjVKSGeF-RRB for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F2A33A681E for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5849 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2008 05:46:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.39) with ESMTP; 08 Jul 2008 05:46:01 -0000 Message-ID: <0981B95235D84FE2AD5A089CCB98CBEC@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20807072123k471b95c4n985c34d77a42b5d0@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94604@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 23:46:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Possibly a way forward? (was extlang & deprecation (wasdraft updated...)) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Rm9yIHRoZSByZWNvcmQsIGVpdGhlciB0aGUgWC1ZIG9yIFkgZm9ybSBpcyBhY2NlcHRhYmxlIHRv IG1lLiAgSSdtIG5vdCAKcGxhbm5pbmcgYW55IGxhdGUgc3VycHJpc2VzLgoKSSB3b3VsZCBsaWtl IHRvIHNlZSBYLVkgYmUgYWxsb3dlZCAqc29tZWhvdyosIGV2ZW4gaWYgaXQgaXMgZGVwcmVjYXRl ZCAKc28gc3Ryb25nbHkgdGhhdCBJIGhhdmUgdG8gcmVnaXN0ZXIgd2l0aCB0aGUgcG9saWNlIEFO RCBhbGwgdGhlIApuZWlnaGJvcmhvb2Qga2lkcyB3aWxsIG1ha2UgZnVuIG9mIG1lIGlmIEkgdXNl IGl0LiAgQnV0IGV2ZW4gaWYgdGhlIFdHIApkZWNpZGVzIGl0IG11c3QgYmUgb25seSBZICh3aGlj aCBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIHdpbGwgaGFwcGVuKSwgSSB3aWxsIGdvIAphbG9uZyB3aXRoIGl0LgoK VGhlIHdvcnN0IHRoaW5nIG9mIGFsbCBpcyB0byBjb250aW51ZSB0aGlzIGRlbGF5IGluZGVmaW5p dGVseSBzbyB0aGF0IAp0aGVzZSA3LDIwMCBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIGxhbmd1YWdlcyBjYW5ub3QgYmUg cGFydCBvZiBhbiBJRVRGIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZyAKYXQgYWxsLiAgVGFsayBhYm91dCBhIGRlbmlh bCBvZiBzZXJ2aWNlLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAq ICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cx LmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZl c3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgoKLS0tLS0gT3Jp Z2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLSAKRnJvbTogUGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24KVG86IE1hcmsgRGF2 aXMgOyBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsCkNjOiBMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXAKU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBKdWx5 IDcsIDIwMDggMjM6MzMKU3ViamVjdDogUkU6IFtMdHJ1XSBQb3NzaWJseSBhIHdheSBmb3J3YXJk PyAod2FzIGV4dGxhbmcgJiBkZXByZWNhdGlvbiAKKHdhc2RyYWZ0IHVwZGF0ZWQuLi4pKQoKCkkg dGhpbmsgdGhpcyBpcyBtaXNndWlkZWQuIFRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIGhlcmUgdGhhdCB3ZSBzZWVtIHRv IGJlIApzdHJ1Z2dsaW5nIHdpdGggaXMgdGhhdCB3ZSBkb27igJl0IHdpc2ggdG8gaW5zaW51YXRl IHRoYXQgb25lIGZvcm0gb3IgdGhlIApvdGhlciBpcyDigJxiZXR0ZXLigJ0gYmVjYXVzZSB3ZSBj YW5ub3QgYWdyZWUgYW1vbmdzdCBvdXJzZWx2ZXMgd2hpY2ggZm9ybSAKaXMgYmV0dGVy4oCmIG9y IHdlIGZlYXIgdGhhdCBzb21lIG5hbWVsZXNzIHBhcnRpZXMgd2lsbCBvYmplY3QgbGF0ZXIgKHdo eSAKdGhleSBkb27igJl0IG9iamVjdCBub3cgSSBkb27igJl0IHVuZGVyc3RhbmQtLS1pdOKAmXMg YSBraW5kIG9mIERvUyBhdHRhY2sgb24gCnRoZSBXRyBub3QgdG8gc2F5IHdoYXQgb25lIHByZWZl cnMgbm93KS4KCkkgY2Fubm90IHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgaG93IGEgc3VidGFnIGNhbiBoYXZlIGEg4oCc cHJlZmVycmVkIHZhbHVl4oCdIChpbXBseWluZyAKdGhhdCBpdCBpcyBhdCBsZWFzdCDigJxub3Qg cHJlZmVycmVk4oCdKSBhbmQgbm90IHNheSB0aGF0IGl0IGlzIGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQuIApEZXByZWNh dGlvbiBpcyBub3QgdGhlIGVuZCBvZiB0aGUgd29ybGQgZm9yIGEgc3VidGFnLiBJZiB3aGF0IHdl 4oCZcmUgCnNheWluZyBpcyB0aGF0IGRlcHJlY2F0aW9uIG9mIChlaXRoZXIpIG9uZSBvZiB0aGUg Zm9ybXMgaXMgYSAKbm9uLXN0YXJ0ZXIsIHRoZW4gbGV04oCZcyBnbyB3aXRoOgoKMS4gICAgICAg VGhlcmUgYXJlIHR3byBmb3JtcyBZIGFuZCBYLVkuCjIuICAgICAgIE5laXRoZXIgZm9ybSBpcyBw cmVmZXJyZWQgYW5kIG5laXRoZXIgZm9ybSBpcyBkZXByZWNhdGVkLiAKRWl0aGVyIE1BWSBiZSB1 c2VkIHRvIGZvcm0gdGhlIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZy4KMy4gICAgICAgQ2hvb3Npbmcgb25lIGZvcm0g b3IgdGhlIG90aGVyIGhhcyBpbXBsaWNhdGlvbnMsIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgZm9yIApuYcOvdmUgbWF0 Y2hpbmcgYWxnb3JpdGhtcyAobGlzdCB0aGVzZSBpbXBsaWNhdGlvbnMgd2hlcmUga25vd24pCgpU aGF0IHN0cmlrZXMgbWUgYXMgYSB3b3JrYWJsZSBjb21wcm9taXNlIGlmIHdlIGNhbm5vdCBhZ3Jl ZSB0byBkZXByZWNhdGUgCm9uZSBmb3JtIG9yIHRoZSBvdGhlci4gSW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIGFy ZSBzdGlsbCBmcmVlIHRvIGNob29zZSBvbmUgZm9ybSAKb3ZlciB0aGUgb3RoZXIgYW5kIHN0aWxs IGZyZWUgdG8g4oCcbm9ybWFsaXpl4oCdIHRhZ3MgdG8gdGhhdCBmb3JtIGZvciAKcHJvY2Vzc2lu Zy4KCkFkZGlzb24KCkFkZGlzb24gUGhpbGxpcHMKR2xvYmFsaXphdGlvbiBBcmNoaXRlY3QgLS0g TGFiMTI2CgpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJlLgpJdCBpcyBhbiBh cmNoaXRlY3R1cmUuCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 23:05:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E9E3A69D7; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 23:05:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C9E3A69D7 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 23:05:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.296 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.296 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.302, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a157C9u9EL-b for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 23:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 879263A6896 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 23:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16391 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2008 06:05:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.33) with ESMTP; 08 Jul 2008 06:05:32 -0000 Message-ID: <7C2705CFC8234D87B90331BD4CB2FE46@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 00:05:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDxwZXRlcmNvbiBhdCBtaWNyb3NvZnQgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IFNlY3Rpb24gMy4xLjQgb2YgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgZHJhZnQgaGFzIHRoaXMgd29yZGluZzoKPgo+ IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0KPiBFYWNoICdEZXNjcmlwdGlvbicgZmllbGQgTVVTVCBiZSB1bmlx dWUsIGJvdGggd2l0aGluIHRoZSByZWNvcmQgaW4gCj4gd2hpY2ggaXQgYXBwZWFycyBhbmQgZm9y IHRoZSBjb2xsZWN0aW9uIG9mIHJlY29yZHMgb2YgdGhlIHNhbWUgdHlwZS4KPiAtLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tCj4KPiBJJ20gbm90IHBvc2l0aXZlIEkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB0aGUgaW50ZW50IGZvciB0 aGUgc2Vjb25kIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50LCAKPiB1bmlxdWUgImZvciB0aGUgY29sbGVjdGlvbiBvZiBy ZWNvcmRzIG9mIHRoZSBzYW1lIHR5cGUiLiBJdCBzb3VuZHMgCj4gbGlrZSB0aGF0J3Mgc2F5aW5n IHRoYXQsIGlmIChzYXkpIGEgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgcmVjb3JkIGhhcyBhIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9uIAo+IGZp ZWxkIHdpdGggdGhlIHZhbHVlICJmb28iLCB0aGVuIG5vIG90aGVyIGxhbmd1YWdlIHJlY29yZCBj YW4gaGF2ZSBhIAo+IGRlc2NyaXB0aW9uICJmb28iLgoKV2UgYWxyZWFkeSBoYXZlIGEgcHJvYmxl bSB3aXRoIHRoaXMsIGJlY2F1c2UgIkRpbWxpIiBpcyBib3RoIHRoZSBvbmx5IApEZXNjcmlwdGlv biBmaWVsZCBmb3Igc3VidGFnICdkaXEnIGFuZCBvbmUgb2Ygc2l4IERlc2NyaXB0aW9uIGZpZWxk cyBmb3IgCnN1YnRhZyAnenphJy4gIFRoaXMgaGFwcGVuZWQgYmVjYXVzZSB3ZSBjb21taXR0ZWQg dG8gdXNpbmcgYWxsIG9mIHRoZSAKSVNPIDYzOS0zIG5hbWVzLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAg QXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3 LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFy dGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1s YW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 02:00:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748D528C167; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 02:00:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F0D28C167 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 02:00:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sqcppkkp0UY8 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 02:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E80028C165 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 02:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A0B11C00FF; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:00:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 540531C009F; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:00:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEAAA1DAD5; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:00:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:00:53 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20080708090053.GA8654@nic.fr> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.24-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.1: definition of "primary language subtag" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 10:51:30AM -0700, Peter Constable wrote a message of 33 lines which said: > I assume it's intended as a definition. But what's the point of defining "primary language subtag"? What's the use of this concept? I really wonder if we should suppress it instead. We find in -15 uses such as: > Primary and extended language subtags (other than > independently registered values created using the > registration process) are created according to the > assignments of the various parts of ISO 639, Which do not seem consistent with the definition because the definition works only when the "primary language subtag" is part of a whole tag, while the sentence above talks about isolated subtags. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 08:14:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4213A6950; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:14:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32723A6950 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:14:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gfvim7u1fzT6 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066683A6894 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:14:02 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,323,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="6995571" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 15:13:55 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68FDrhp032214 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:13:55 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:13:52 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:13:29 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Peter Constable Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:13:51 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: Acjgt5voNcjYOtGsRiebd/2KGBp0JAAVZsvA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94869@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org +1 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of John Cowan > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 10:01 PM > To: Peter Constable > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness > > Peter Constable scripsit: > > > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. > Also, > > each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of > > records of the same type with the following exception: if a > particular > > 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, > then > > one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other > > records as Preferred-Value. > > I'd rather just abandon the restriction altogether and leave it up > to > the common sense of ietf-languages. > > -- > John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > [T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin. > Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which > his > theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral > purpose > in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory > may > have important survival value. --Ian Johnston > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 08:15:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C266F3A6983; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:15:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 318E73A6983 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.833, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2d2TVNt5M6ms for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C96C3A6894 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:15:51 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,323,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="84101543" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 15:15:58 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68FFvbp015119 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:15:58 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:15:57 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:15:55 -0700 Thread-Topic: 3.1.2: extended language range not defined Thread-Index: AcjgrGdlT4WUztW0QNC+HuX8qPz44QACA+xQABYzGtA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA9486E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.2: extended language range not defined X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org A reference to RFC 4647 is provided in several places, but not in places where we reference the language range constructs. I'll add those to the editor's copy. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:40 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.2: extended language range not defined > > Btw, "language range" or "extended language range" are also used in > Sections 3.1.6, 3.1.7 and 4.1. > > Peter > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of > > Peter Constable > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 8:41 PM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: [Ltru] 3.1.2: extended language range not defined > > > > In draft 16, there's a reference in Section 3.1.2 in the part on > the > > Preferred-Value field to "extended language range". That term is > not > > defined in the draft for 4646bis, however. Either a definition > should > > be given in this doc, or a reference provided to another doc in > which > > it is defined. > > > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 08:19:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC183A6A73; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:19:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1AC3A6A73 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:19:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.286, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jTp6xjqqkgsL for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6D03A6810 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:19:12 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,323,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="6998311" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 15:19:21 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68FJKWx025608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:19:20 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:19:20 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:19:19 -0700 Thread-Topic: 3.1.6: Preferred-Value field for extlangs Thread-Index: AcjgtEJNchrfD3MMSPiqM1WosghUIgAWVH+A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA9487B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.6: Preferred-Value field for extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > ------------- > The 'Preferred-Value' field in subtag records of type "extlang" use > the same format as grandfathered or redundant tags. This allows the > subtag to be deprecated in favor of either a single primary > language subtag or a new language-extlang sequence. > ------------- > > It's not clear to me what's meant: in just what way is the format > the same as for grandfathered or redundant tags? The requirements > stated in 3.1.1 that apply to *all* fields would be one similarity, > but obviously that's not what was in mind. Is it that the field > "contains language ranges that are strongly RECOMMENDED for use in > place of the record's value"? It's just not clear, but should be. We already modified this in the editor's copy. Currently it reads: For fields of type 'extlang', 'grandfathered', or 'redundant', 'Preferred-Value' contains an extended language range that is preferred for forming the language tag. That is, each of the subtags that appears in the value MUST appear in the replacement tag; additional fields can be included in a language tag as described elsewhere in this document. For example, the replacement for the grandfathered tag "zh-min-nan" (Min Nan Chinese) is "nan", which can be used as the basis for tags such as "nan-Hant" or "nan-TW" (note that the extended language subtag form such as "zh-nan-Hant" or "zh-nan-TW" can also be used). Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 08:56:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA52A28C0EC; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:56:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E75D28C0EC for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:56:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.874 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.874 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.725, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5IlVOsd1rjiu for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844543A6803 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:57:02 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:56:58 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:56:53 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjhEz2okR8m50G/Q3ipztw0Bnx0QA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SW4gU2VjdGlvbiA0LjEsIG51bWJlcmVkIGl0ZW0gNCBkaXNjdXNzZXMgZW50cmllcyBpbiA2Mzkt MiB0aGF0IHJlcXVpcmUgc3BlY2lhbCBjYXJlLiBUaGUgdGV4dCB0aGVuIGdvZXMgb24gdG8gZGlz Y3VzcyB0aGUgdmFyaW91cyBjYXNlcyBpbmRpdmlkdWFsbHkgaW4gbnVtYmVyZWQgcGFyYWdyYXBo cy4gQSBmZXcgY29tbWVudHM6DQoNCjEuIFdydCBmb3JtYXR0aW5nLCB0aGUgc2Vjb25kLWxldmVs IG51bWJlcmluZyB1c2VzIHRoZSBzYW1lIGZvcm1hdCBhcyB0aGUgdG9wIGxldmVsIG51bWJlcmlu Zy4gSXTigJlzIG5vdCBjbGVhciB0byBtZSB3aHkgdGhlIHNlY29uZC1sZXZlbCBpdGVtcyBuZWVk IHRvIGJlIG51bWJlcmVkLCBidXQgaWYgdGhleSBhcmUgdGhlbiBmb3JtYXR0aW5nIHNob3VsZCBi ZSBjb25zaXN0ZW50IHdpdGggZm9ybWF0dGluZyBwcmFjdGljZSBlbHNld2hlcmUgaW4gdGhlIGRv Yy4gRS5nLiBjb21wYXJlIDMuNCB3aGljaCB1c2VzIG51bWJlcnMsIHRoZW4gbGV0dGVycy4NCg0K DQoNCjIuIFRoZSBmaXJzdCBpdGVtaXplZCBwYXJhZ3JhcGggZGlzY3Vzc2VzIGNvbGxlY3Rpb25z Og0KDQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQpVc2Ugc3BlY2lmaWMgbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugc3VidGFncyBvciBz dWJ0YWcgc2VxdWVuY2VzIGluIHByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gc3VidGFncyBmb3IgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgY29s bGVjdGlvbnMuIEEgImxhbmd1YWdlIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24iIGlzIGEgc3VidGFnIGRlcml2ZWQgZnJv bSBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIFtJU082MznigJE1XSBjb2RlcyB0aGF0IHJlcHJlc2VudHMgbXVsdGlwbGUg cmVsYXRlZCBsYW5ndWFnZXMuIFRoZXNlIGNvZGVzIGFyZSBpbmNsdWRlZCBhcyBwcmltYXJ5IGxh bmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3MgaW4gdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5LiBGb3IgZXhhbXBsZS4uLg0KLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLQ0KDQpJIGZpbmQgdGhlIHdvcmRpbmcgY3JlYXRlcyBhIGZlZWwgb2YgZGlzY29udGlu dWl0eSBmcm9tIHRoZSBpbnRybyBwYXJhZ3JhcGggYXMgaXQncyBub3Qgb2J2aW91cyBob3cgdGhp cyByZWxhdGVzIHRvIDYzOS0yLCBwYXJ0aWN1bGFybHkgZ2l2ZW4gdGhlIHJlZmVyZW5jZSB0byA2 MzktNS4NCg0KU3VnZ2VzdGVkIHJldmlzaW9uOg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KSVNPIDYzOS0y IGluY2x1ZGVzIGNvZGVzIGZvciBsYW5ndWFnZSBjb2xsZWN0aW9ucywgYXMgZG9lcyBbSVNPIDYz OS01XS4gQSAibGFuZ3VhZ2UgY29sbGVjdGlvbiIgY29kZSByZXByZXNlbnRzIG11bHRpcGxlIHJl bGF0ZWQgbGFuZ3VhZ2VzLiBUaGVzZSBjb2RlcyBhcmUgaW5jbHVkZWQgYXMgcHJpbWFyeSBsYW5n dWFnZSBzdWJ0YWdzIGluIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeS4gSG93ZXZlciwgc3BlY2lmaWMgbGFuZ3VhZ2Ug c3VidGFncyBvciBzdWJ0YWcgc2VxdWVuY2VzIFNIT1VMRCBiZSB1c2VkIGluIHByZWZlcmVuY2Ug dG8gc3VidGFncyBmb3IgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgY29sbGVjdGlvbnMuIEZvciBleGFtcGxlLi4uDQotLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQoNCg0KDQozLiBUaGUgc2Vjb25kIGl0ZW1pemVkIHBhcmFncmFwaCBoYXMg dGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZzoNCg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KVGhlICdtdWwnIChNdWx0aXBsZSkg cHJpbWFyeSBsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWcgaWRlbnRpZmllcyBjb250ZW50IGluIG11bHRpcGxlIGxh bmd1YWdlcy4gVGhpcyBzdWJ0YWcgU0hPVUxEIE5PVCBiZSB1c2VkIHdoZW4gYSBsaXN0IG9mIGxh bmd1YWdlcyAoc3VjaCBhcyBDb250ZW50LUxhbmd1YWdlKS4uLg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0K DQpQbGVhc2UgZ2l2ZSBhIGNvbnRleHQgYW5kIHJlZmVyZW5jZSB3aGVuIGludHJvZHVjaW5nIGV4 dGVybmFsIGNvbmNlcHRzIHN1Y2ggYXMgQ29udGVudC1MYW5ndWFnZS4gSW4gdGhpcyBjYXNlLCB5 b3UgbWlnaHQgc2F5ICJzdWNoIGFzIE1JTUUgQ29udGVudC1MYW5ndWFnZSBoZWFkZXJzIFtSRkMz MjgyXS4uLiIsICJzdWNoIGFzIFtDb250ZW50LUxhbmd1YWdlXSBoZWFkZXJzIiwgb3Igc29tZXRo aW5nIHNpbWlsYXIuDQoNCg0KDQo0LiBGaW5hbGx5LCB0aGUgbGFzdCBpdGVtaXplZCBwYXJhZ3Jh cGggaW4gdGhpcyBzZWN0aW9uIGRpc2N1c3NlcyAiaS1kZWZhdWx0Iiwgd2hpY2ggaGFzIG5vdCBj b25uZWN0aW9uIHRvIElTTyA2MzktMi4gVGhpcyBzaG91bGQgbm90IGJlIGEgc3ViLWl0ZW0gdW5k ZXIgaXRlbSA0IG9uIElTTyA2MzktMiwgYnV0IHNob3VsZCBiZSBhIHRvcC1sZXZlbCBpdGVtLCBu dW1iZXJlZCA1Lg0KDQoNCg0KDQpQZXRlcg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 09:59:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0394E3A6909; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2ADE3A6810 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:59:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.724 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.724 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id joj6ucrAcASF for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3D73A6922 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:59:07 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,324,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7050053" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 16:59:09 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68Gx7Rv017148 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:59:09 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:59:07 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:59:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: draft-16 editor copy... Thread-Index: AcjhG+5G63sjWqPVTxKQHTYwfNo/Hw== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94A63@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] draft-16 editor copy... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org All, (with editor hat) Just now I updated the editor's copy on Inter-Locale (of draft-16). It doesn't have all of the earmarked changes from the past couple of days in it yet, but hopefully this will forestall some of the problems with people such as Peter's comments being out of sync with my copy. As the day progresses, I'll have all edits in and will re-push the document to the server. The current copy is dated July 7. The new copy will be dated July 8. At the end of today, after I've run the various and sundry IETF tools, I'll submit the draft officially and we can then work on draft-17. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 10:23:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D3A93A6810; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:23:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B43743A69CE for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:23:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M92lfM6C6TTb for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AA53A65A6 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:23:16 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,324,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7062652" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 17:23:25 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68HNOnq002643; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:23:24 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:23:24 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:23:00 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:23:22 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjhEz2okR8m50G/Q3ipztw0Bnx0QAACOiRw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org KGVkaXRvciBoYXQpDQoNCn5BZGRpc29uDQo+DQo+IEluIFNlY3Rpb24gNC4xLCBudW1iZXJlZCBp 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C7F8C28C10B; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:27:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B22F28C10B for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:27:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YP8HcJ7fNXCH for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190203A67B7 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:27:55 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,324,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7064973" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 17:27:56 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68HRuHv004847; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:27:56 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:27:56 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Peter Constable Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:27:55 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 2.2.1: definition of "primary language subtag" Thread-Index: Acjg2Ugz/2IdFPKJTSWhKmLgriwE3gARjjYA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B16@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080708090053.GA8654@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20080708090053.GA8654@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.1: definition of "primary language subtag" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org We separately define "primary language subtag" in Section 2.2.1 (as well as extended language subtag in 2.2.2). This particular form originated from 1766 and has persisted until today in various incarnations. It is useful, I think, to point out the "narrowing" idea, but this form may have outlived its usefulness. I propose we modify it to say: -- The language tag is composed of one or more parts, known as "subtags". Each subtag consists of a sequence of alphanumeric characters. Subtags are distinguished and separated from one another by a hyphen ("-", ABNF %x2D) and each subtag refines or narrows the range of languages identified by the overall tag. -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 2:01 AM > To: Peter Constable > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.1: definition of "primary language subtag" > > On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 10:51:30AM -0700, > Peter Constable wrote > a message of 33 lines which said: > > > I assume it's intended as a definition. > > But what's the point of defining "primary language subtag"? What's > the > use of this concept? I really wonder if we should suppress it > instead. > > We find in -15 uses such as: > > > Primary and extended language subtags (other than > > independently registered values created using the > > registration process) are created according to the > > assignments of the various parts of ISO 639, > > Which do not seem consistent with the definition because the > definition works only when the "primary language subtag" is part of > a > whole tag, while the sentence above talks about isolated subtags. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 10:33:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31FA028C138; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:33:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA103A6801 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:33:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NyrjSz+2dLVC for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB0C28C1DC for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:33:33 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,324,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="84201656" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 17:33:41 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68HXdFP015332 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:33:41 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:33:40 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Peter Constable Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:33:38 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: Acjgt5voNcjYOtGsRiebd/2KGBp0JAAaM55w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (technical hat) I agree... but this was done on purpose (the purpose of which appears later in the paragraph). (editor hat) I removed the overall uniqueness requirement, narrowing it to within a record and focusing on formatting variations. -- The field 'Description' contains a description of the tag or subtag in the record. The 'Description' field MAY appear more than once per record, that is, there can be multiple descriptions for a given record. The 'Description' field MAY include the full range of Unicode characters. At least one of the 'Description' fields MUST be written or transcribed into the Latin script; additional 'Description' fields MAY also include descriptions in non-Latin scripts. Each 'Description' field SHOULD be unique within the record in which it appears and formatting variations of the same description SHOULD NOT occur in that specific record. For example, while the ISO 639-1 code 'fy' contains both the descriptions "Western Frisian" and "Frisian, Western", only one of these descriptions appears in the registry. -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of John Cowan > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 10:01 PM > To: Peter Constable > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness > > Peter Constable scripsit: > > > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. > Also, > > each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of > > records of the same type with the following exception: if a > particular > > 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, > then > > one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other > > records as Preferred-Value. > > I'd rather just abandon the restriction altogether and leave it up > to > the common sense of ietf-languages. > > -- > John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > [T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin. > Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which > his > theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral > purpose > in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory > may > have important survival value. --Ian Johnston > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 10:39:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0266F3A6A42; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A153A6A42 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:39:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Cj16n8Xp5Ed for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2463A69D3 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,324,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7071042" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 17:39:28 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68HdOkf021693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:39:28 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:39:27 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:39:25 -0700 Thread-Topic: 3.1.2: extended language range not defined Thread-Index: AcjgrGdlT4WUztW0QNC+HuX8qPz44QACA+xQABs4SCA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B62@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.2: extended language range not defined X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) I inserted various references to RFC 4647. Note that I also spelled out "extended language range" in quotes in most of these cases (to make clear that we are referencing a specific term). I also tightened the text in 3.1.6 along the lines the Peter requested. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:40 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.2: extended language range not defined > > Btw, "language range" or "extended language range" are also used in > Sections 3.1.6, 3.1.7 and 4.1. > > Peter > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of > > Peter Constable > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 8:41 PM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: [Ltru] 3.1.2: extended language range not defined > > > > In draft 16, there's a reference in Section 3.1.2 in the part on > the > > Preferred-Value field to "extended language range". That term is > not > > defined in the draft for 4646bis, however. Either a definition > should > > be given in this doc, or a reference provided to another doc in > which > > it is defined. > > > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 10:40:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 665673A6AA2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:40:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA8C93A6AA2 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:40:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.077, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s+OJt2vISeUz for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA56F3A6A42 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:40:36 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,324,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="84206299" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 17:40:46 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68HejZw023240 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:40:46 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:40:45 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:40:44 -0700 Thread-Topic: 3.1.6: Preferred-Value field for extlangs Thread-Index: AcjgtEJNchrfD3MMSPiqM1WosghUIgAbVbPg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B6D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.6: Preferred-Value field for extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) I mentioned the tightening in my previous message. Here is Peter's request: > The current draft has this text in Section 3.1.6: > > ------------- > The 'Preferred-Value' field in subtag records of type "extlang" use > the same format as grandfathered or redundant tags. This allows the > subtag to be deprecated in favor of either a single primary > language subtag or a new language-extlang sequence. > ------------- > > It's not clear to me what's meant: in just what way is the format > the same as for grandfathered or redundant tags? The requirements > stated in 3.1.1 that apply to *all* fields would be one similarity, > but obviously that's not what was in mind. Is it that the field > "contains language ranges that are strongly RECOMMENDED for use in > place of the record's value"? It's just not clear, but should be. > ... this text now reads... The 'Preferred-Value' field in subtag records of type "extlang" also contains an "extended language range". This allows the subtag to be deprecated in favor of either a single primary language subtag or a new language-extlang sequence. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 10:48:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DAEB3A6A42; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:48:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DBF3A6A42 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:48:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k7xDdVkJbrx5 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.189]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3D73A6801 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m36so644712rnd.18 for ; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 10:48:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=LWllJjeVB/rRhMWX8VbNfrZ6Mj+j67vGEhTI7pp2SJw=; b=w3vVxI0JBBG3/HKRXIXhjIw8adOXkQA2T+9WY9ceVUEO33Xl3w3jIHp7CZ18/56lJF z9NjPCAe/lWrHmD8jXR6Zn94Ho7SNPHqB1Iiq808oiWjeRkLCMaJbGI5nwUEPacFwZUT aB5hgk36WLfBrFwzbCHHU/Meaf4vg8mqcSmX8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=BHSw2a5b7WjdSPkXYg4jrjAzZMLm2unC1VKHhDycqI3+C2AetTsJhj8S8s4w98C5XO bzgtLLu8nLdYnFIFPJ0tPtGVBa9g8zQpVlntDfKjruwopBwJcq7MhCJUpQbrJDbdR9/k O1mzaoCZLKyy0pwdy5Lkej6pQzduJXgoxIfj0= Received: by 10.150.12.3 with SMTP id 3mr10781260ybl.15.1215539338324; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 10:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:48:58 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 540af9c7af2e99c5 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1981156349==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1981156349== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_29401_230925.1215539338316" ------=_Part_29401_230925.1215539338316 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I disagree with this change. The descriptions need to be unique within the type of field. We can always qualify the names, eg "Ainu (China)". Mark On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > (technical hat) > > I agree... but this was done on purpose (the purpose of which appears later > in the paragraph). > > (editor hat) > > I removed the overall uniqueness requirement, narrowing it to within a > record and focusing on formatting variations. > > -- > The field 'Description' contains a description of the tag or subtag in > the record. The 'Description' field MAY appear more than once per record, > that is, there can be multiple descriptions for a given record. The > 'Description' field MAY include the full range of Unicode characters. At > least one of the 'Description' fields MUST be written or transcribed into > the Latin script; additional 'Description' fields MAY also include > descriptions in non-Latin scripts. Each 'Description' field SHOULD be unique > within the record in which it appears and formatting variations of the same > description SHOULD NOT occur in that specific record. For example, while the > ISO 639-1 code 'fy' contains both the descriptions "Western Frisian" and > "Frisian, Western", only one of these descriptions appears in the > registry. > -- > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of John Cowan > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 10:01 PM > > To: Peter Constable > > Cc: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness > > > > Peter Constable scripsit: > > > > > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. > > Also, > > > each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of > > > records of the same type with the following exception: if a > > particular > > > 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, > > then > > > one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other > > > records as Preferred-Value. > > > > I'd rather just abandon the restriction altogether and leave it up > > to > > the common sense of ietf-languages. > > > > -- > > John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan > cowan@ccil.org > > [T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin. > > Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which > > his > > theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral > > purpose > > in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory > > may > > have important survival value. --Ian Johnston > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_29401_230925.1215539338316 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I disagree with this change. The descriptions need to be unique within the type of field. We can always qualify the names, eg "Ainu (China)".

Mark

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
(technical hat)

I agree... but this was done on purpose (the purpose of which appears later in the paragraph).

(editor hat)

I removed the overall uniqueness requirement, narrowing it to within a record and focusing on formatting variations.

--
<t>The field 'Description' contains a description of the tag or subtag in the record. The 'Description' field MAY appear more than once per record, that is, there can be multiple descriptions for a given record. The 'Description' field MAY include the full range of Unicode characters. At least one of the 'Description' fields MUST be written or transcribed into the Latin script; additional 'Description' fields MAY also include descriptions in non-Latin scripts. Each 'Description' field SHOULD be unique within the record in which it appears and formatting variations of the same description SHOULD NOT occur in that specific record. For example, while the ISO 639-1 code 'fy' contains both the descriptions "Western Frisian" and "Frisian, Western", only one of these descriptions appears in the registry.</t>
--

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of John Cowan
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 10:01 PM
> To: Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness
>
> Peter Constable scripsit:
>
> > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record.
> Also,
> > each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of
> > records of the same type with the following exception: if a
> particular
> > 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type,
> then
> > one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other
> > records as Preferred-Value.
>
> I'd rather just abandon the restriction altogether and leave it up
> to
> the common sense of ietf-languages.
>
> --
> John Cowan    http://ccil.org/~cowan    cowan@ccil.org
> [T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin.
> Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which
> his
> theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral
> purpose
> in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory
> may
> have important survival value. --Ian Johnston
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_29401_230925.1215539338316-- --===============1981156349== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1981156349==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 11:49:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D187D3A6AAD; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A263A6A92 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.931 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.931 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([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:49:37 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:49:35 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjgWyQFGSd+dkw5RUClOiiCndQycAAAo75gAAB5cEAAEvXHgAAff0Eg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94CA5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807071058t24298681h5048d7fb0bdf3e04@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963D22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2079841616==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 11:58:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28303A69E6; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:58:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291373A6AB6 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:58:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j6chI8gll2Xb for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33DDD3A69E6 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:58:10 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,325,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="84257446" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 18:58:16 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68IwGsS002484 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:58:16 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:58:16 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:58:14 -0700 Thread-Topic: grandfathered to redundant? Thread-Index: AcjhLJNs64Is7UYkTFOqpshqd86/pw== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94CC5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] grandfathered to redundant? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org In Section 3.4 (iana stability) we have rules for transitioning grandfathered tags to redundant. Recently there was a thread on the list suggesting that the remaining regular grandfathered list is basically closed and cannot become redundant because of various other rules we have in place. Should we modify the text to say this? (It would be nice to get rid of extraneous rules for a change). The list of regular gf tags is: regular = "art-lojban" ; these tags match the 'langtag' / "cel-gaulish" ; production, but their subtags / "no-bok" ; are not extended language / "no-nyn" ; or variant subtags: their meaning / "zh-guoyu" ; is defined by their registration / "zh-hakka" ; and all of these are deprecated / "zh-min" ; in favor of a more modern / "zh-min-nan" ; subtag or sequence of subtags / "zh-xiang" As I believe John Cowan pointed out, only 'lojban', 'gaulish', 'guoyu', 'hakka', and 'xiang' could ever become variants. Of these, only 'gaulish' has some semblance of residual meaning as a variant (and this one not much). The others are, without exception, deprecated in favor of something else. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 12:04:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E3E3A6ABB; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:04:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BCC3A6ABB for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:04:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aAT8eHhghPU0 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC953A69E6 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KGIUK-0007p0-Ua; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:04:32 -0400 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:04:32 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080708190432.GA29653@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94CC5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94CC5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] grandfathered to redundant? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > In Section 3.4 (iana stability) we have rules for transitioning > grandfathered tags to redundant. Recently there was a thread on the list > suggesting that the remaining regular grandfathered list is basically > closed and cannot become redundant because of various other rules we > have in place. Should we modify the text to say this? (It would be > nice to get rid of extraneous rules for a change). +1 > As I believe John Cowan pointed out, only 'lojban', 'gaulish', > 'guoyu', 'hakka', and 'xiang' could ever become variants. Of these, > only 'gaulish' has some semblance of residual meaning as a variant > (and this one not much). The others are, without exception, deprecated > in favor of something else. cel-gaulish would be semantically anomalous anyhow: a language collection followed by a language variant, with no actual *language*. I say it's a dead duck. -- In my last lifetime, John Cowan I believed in reincarnation; http://www.ccil.org/~cowan in this lifetime, cowan@ccil.org I don't. --Thiagi _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 12:29:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F3228C2C1; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:29:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7753A6780 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:29:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.314, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id evTL0xD1E1-N for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2D128C26A for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:29:55 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:29:55 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:29:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjhIu7oPCFxqNzhT7emJsfNdixqUgADbhiQ 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--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956339117D66NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============0138111803== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0138111803==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 13:34:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A343A6869; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:34:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE77E3A6869 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:34:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ydvDE1NQ-tu1 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21CC03A67AC for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m36so707566rnd.18 for ; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:34:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=V24kIdTKCYvwvyOHWsoYzglV0VB2KfknhDnALt/v3QQ=; b=oxAl2RfqcDVPFgQ2Ci4FyVGShp5MSaQfbXHiab0kYn0RiTDSYQkz7E/SavBN79usEr 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<30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9739f8ded54d0083 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1185379255==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1185379255== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30323_13134172.1215549261568" ------=_Part_30323_13134172.1215549261568 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It certainly *can* be made to be unique across all records, without resorting to rocket science: change zza's Dimli by adding an annotation, like "Dimli (Zaza)". http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=zza http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=diq Mark On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Peter Constable wrote: > The collective set of descriptions for a given record should be unique > across records of a given type (modulo cases like Javanese). Doug has > pointed out an existing instance ("Dimli") in which a single description > field can't be unique across all descriptions for all records of a given > type. > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:49 AM > *To:* Phillips, Addison > *Cc:* John Cowan; Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness > > > > I disagree with this change. The descriptions need to be unique within the > type of field. We can always qualify the names, eg "Ainu (China)". > > Mark > > On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Phillips, Addison > wrote: > > (technical hat) > > I agree... but this was done on purpose (the purpose of which appears later > in the paragraph). > > (editor hat) > > I removed the overall uniqueness requirement, narrowing it to within a > record and focusing on formatting variations. > > -- > The field 'Description' contains a description of the tag or subtag in > the record. The 'Description' field MAY appear more than once per record, > that is, there can be multiple descriptions for a given record. The > 'Description' field MAY include the full range of Unicode characters. At > least one of the 'Description' fields MUST be written or transcribed into > the Latin script; additional 'Description' fields MAY also include > descriptions in non-Latin scripts. Each 'Description' field SHOULD be unique > within the record in which it appears and formatting variations of the same > description SHOULD NOT occur in that specific record. For example, while the > ISO 639-1 code 'fy' contains both the descriptions "Western Frisian" and > "Frisian, Western", only one of these descriptions appears in the > registry. > -- > > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of John Cowan > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 10:01 PM > > To: Peter Constable > > Cc: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness > > > > > Peter Constable scripsit: > > > > > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. > > Also, > > > each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of > > > records of the same type with the following exception: if a > > particular > > > 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, > > then > > > one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other > > > records as Preferred-Value. > > > > I'd rather just abandon the restriction altogether and leave it up > > to > > the common sense of ietf-languages. > > > > -- > > John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan > cowan@ccil.org > > [T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin. > > Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which > > his > > theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral > > purpose > > in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory > > may > > have important survival value. --Ian Johnston > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > ------=_Part_30323_13134172.1215549261568 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It certainly can be made to be unique across all records, without resorting to rocket science: change zza's Dimli by adding an annotation, like "Dimli (Zaza)".

http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=zza
http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=diq

Mark

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:

The collective set of descriptions for a given record should be unique across records of a given type (modulo cases like Javanese). Doug has pointed out an existing instance ("Dimli") in which a single description field can't be unique across all descriptions for all records of a given type.

 

 

Peter

 

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:49 AM
To: Phillips, Addison
Cc: John Cowan; Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group


Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness

 

I disagree with this change. The descriptions need to be unique within the type of field. We can always qualify the names, eg "Ainu (China)".

Mark

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

(technical hat)

I agree... but this was done on purpose (the purpose of which appears later in the paragraph).

(editor hat)

I removed the overall uniqueness requirement, narrowing it to within a record and focusing on formatting variations.

--
<t>The field 'Description' contains a description of the tag or subtag in the record. The 'Description' field MAY appear more than once per record, that is, there can be multiple descriptions for a given record. The 'Description' field MAY include the full range of Unicode characters. At least one of the 'Description' fields MUST be written or transcribed into the Latin script; additional 'Description' fields MAY also include descriptions in non-Latin scripts. Each 'Description' field SHOULD be unique within the record in which it appears and formatting variations of the same description SHOULD NOT occur in that specific record. For example, while the ISO 639-1 code 'fy' contains both the descriptions "Western Frisian" and "Frisian, Western", only one of these descriptions appears in the registry.</t>
--


Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of John Cowan
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 10:01 PM
> To: Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness
>

> Peter Constable scripsit:
>
> > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record.
> Also,
> > each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of
> > records of the same type with the following exception: if a
> particular
> > 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type,
> then
> > one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other
> > records as Preferred-Value.
>
> I'd rather just abandon the restriction altogether and leave it up
> to
> the common sense of ietf-languages.
>
> --
> John Cowan    http://ccil.org/~cowan    cowan@ccil.org
> [T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin.
> Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which
> his
> theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral
> purpose
> in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory
> may
> have important survival value. --Ian Johnston
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

 


------=_Part_30323_13134172.1215549261568-- --===============1185379255== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1185379255==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 13:38:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503B83A6AF0; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:38:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5160C28C297 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:38:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.476 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.476 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZrmIvQt3m4wx for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.185]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC4B3A698F for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m36so709299rnd.18 for ; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:38:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=/PwGDgKk0YWjcLYULg22y99XCcq3WJVYrDOftcaqGoU=; b=XtATXXHXOCEFFmvWrViKJo/LCwkx+c7n6/V6lxc24pXaYML35ev7JwqkP7b75RihrT xdjJDZcu4E+lD/wmLC/oSL9lb8rz4m+J8D5OHVsV18HuLN3vayIuqYRMIElbrF9T1ZgR bTkm38XJTUoUptWvmStUwh8wSo2xfFlRmxAiM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=MzaFpOfSCrlovUpQ2IttI0sk9F5AyTY9jvw/M8NCD/QL2T7yjx3RINTnsghFTizWgY tCGL+8yigqDT8Fm+WWtqCex0ZY7BcnCorXbSxkgUmalW6RGuY/3KjfP4WEfHF7ka4iDK 7zREvTC1zjKaJ4saR5pLeR7jZH1PfqdOuoBlA= Received: by 10.151.49.8 with SMTP id b8mr10940167ybk.241.1215549532937; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807081338p18c4855cga219ecd35ace5b26@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:38:52 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94CA5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807071058t24298681h5048d7fb0bdf3e04@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963D22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94CA5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 719aac0f8fc0f3ae Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0701992305==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0701992305== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30367_14178586.1215549532910" ------=_Part_30367_14178586.1215549532910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Works for me. Mark On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > A bit more on casing. > > > > First, as part of a edit round, I redid the para on casing again to make it > (I hope) clearer, including spelling out the fact that it includes an > algorithm: > > > > Although case distinctions do not carry meaning in language tags, > consistent formatting and presentation of the tags will aid users. The > format of subtags in the registry is RECOMMENDED as the form to use in > language tags. This format generally corresponds to the common conventions > for the various ISO standards from which the subtags are derived as listed > above. An implementation can reproduce this format without accessing the > registry as follows: All subtags, including extension and private use > subtags, use lowercase letters, with two exceptions: two-letter and > four-letter subtags that neither appear at the start of the tag nor occur > after singletons. Such two-letter subtags are all uppercase (as in the tags > "en-CA-x-ca" or "sgn-BE-FR") and four-letter subtags are titlecase (as in > the tag "az-Latn-x-latn"). > > > > Peter then commented: > > > > --- > > > > Btw, I note that 3.1.3 discusses casing in registry records, and it > expresses the exceptions directly in terms of script and region. I suppose > that is fine for the registry but doesn't work quite as well for tags in > cases like sgn-BE-FR. > > > > > > It turns out that this is sort-of okay, in that this achieves the correct > result. However, the lack of linkage isn't very helpful and the 'Tag' > description is hopeless. To counteract this, I split out the casing rules > into a new subsection of Section 2 and then refer to that in section > 3.1.3. I think this is a lot cleaner and clearer. > > > > Addison > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > ------=_Part_30367_14178586.1215549532910 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Works for me.

Mark

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

A bit more on casing.

 

First, as part of a edit round, I redid the para on casing again to make it (I hope) clearer, including spelling out the fact that it includes an algorithm:

 

<t>Although case distinctions do not carry meaning in language tags, consistent formatting and presentation of the tags will aid users. The format of subtags in the registry is RECOMMENDED as the form to use in language tags. This format generally corresponds to the common conventions for the various ISO standards from which the subtags are derived as listed above. An implementation can reproduce this format without accessing the registry as follows: All subtags, including extension and private use subtags, use lowercase letters, with two exceptions: two-letter and four-letter subtags that neither appear at the start of the tag nor occur after singletons. Such two-letter subtags are all uppercase (as in the tags "en-CA-x-ca" or "sgn-BE-FR") and four-letter subtags are titlecase (as in the tag "az-Latn-x-latn").</t>

 

Peter then commented:

 

---

 

Btw, I note that 3.1.3 discusses casing in registry records, and it expresses the exceptions directly in terms of script and region. I suppose that is fine for the registry but doesn't work quite as well for tags in cases like sgn-BE-FR.

 

 

It turns out that this is sort-of okay, in that this achieves the correct result. However, the lack of linkage isn't very helpful and the 'Tag' description is hopeless. To counteract this, I split out the casing rules into a new subsection of Section 2 and then refer to that in section 3.1.3. I think this is a lot cleaner and clearer.

 

Addison


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------=_Part_30367_14178586.1215549532910-- --===============0701992305== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0701992305==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 14:00:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79B328C350; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:00:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8CE428C34D for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:00:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.896 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uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjhOhMpYirw1FcJTp6CR8UtukPm+QAAfEzA Message-ID: References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807081334g1335e73dmc48d694fc9d7876b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807081334g1335e73dmc48d694fc9d7876b@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1523371153==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1523371153== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: 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:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Q+U+3lIgUhNvbK03uesNRGTquIDIIWS7oMTqIZ5poUw=; b=kH2C5xEEHGsnHGagko2rK+col4CV1AgLpV+jgr27ClAgAp4rHLhNeSKyAoPNl6Ghfn /bxAI5zAU4AEtgAqq5d6NtZQJ+ua85+G4J5LWL6ihuC85B8oPDPAGtHlLcf3gdRRFr6e yN2sP1MHCNBu1uCnLj+heKYuSuohmCNzeNFXk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=fo2gLv3QK58WQHtesUR/0AzcqWWoOUthY3QwoXLvN9ltEHnMYshv1qODDCXbHRBbmZ wBhOakolxGturgkM+HF32dD3WCjDLGRGUerEvWaVHuVU2UHIcyeNi2qHHQbbt9mNAylg DM8myB1IFMeXHTrzNa68YaeGcCYw4wPuwPBj8= Received: by 10.150.227.14 with SMTP id z14mr11028141ybg.145.1215551904136; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807081418h323eb440h15da7cddfc7cd43d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:18:18 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807081334g1335e73dmc48d694fc9d7876b@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c98488e4aa375c96 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2025238956==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2025238956== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30593_8780276.1215551899095" ------=_Part_30593_8780276.1215551899095 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2025238956==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 14:28:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642523A6A9E; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:28:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37C33A6A9E for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:28:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.882 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.882 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.284, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GkTd3qrbfvQj for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852023A6935 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:28:16 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:28:16 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:28:11 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjhQC/qfTsNW4eZTH69P9HplSb6pwAALLRQ Message-ID: References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> 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Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2137235701==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2137235701== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956339117E76NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956339117E76NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SG1tbeKApiBJIHRob3VnaHQgd2Ugd2VyZW7igJl0IGludGVuZGluZyB0byBiZSBwcm92aWRpbmcg VUkgc3RyaW5ncy4gQ2VydGFpbmx5IDMuMS40IHN0YXRlcyB0aGF0IHdlIGRvbuKAmXQgZ3VhcmFu dGVlIHRoZSBuYW1lcyB0byBiZSBpbiBhbnkgcGFydGljdWxhciBsYW5ndWFnZSwgYW5kIGl0IHNl 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(PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DFD028C368 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:36:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nads+fFcKIQh for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E942228C367 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:36:40 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,326,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="73858039" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 21:36:50 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68Laojj017163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:36:50 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:36:50 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , Mark Davis , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:36:49 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjhOhMpYirw1FcJTp6CR8UtukPm+QAAfEzAAACs7hA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807081334g1335e73dmc48d694fc9d7876b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0308608508==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0308608508== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185EXSEA5Dantama_" --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185EXSEA5Dantama_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 248F628C368; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:38:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506EC28C368 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:38:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.665 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.665 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.933, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MRhF8FqpdGFX for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577A428C361 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:38:38 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,326,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="84355220" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 21:38:47 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68Lckb9005844 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:38:47 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:38:46 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "Phillips, Addison" , Peter Constable , Mark Davis , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:38:44 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjhOhMpYirw1FcJTp6CR8UtukPm+QAAfEzAAACs7hAAAQ/rUA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64192@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807081334g1335e73dmc48d694fc9d7876b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0636183724==" 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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0636183724==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 15:17:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8619C28C380; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:17:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B083C28C380 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:17:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.271, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LCekHCaTt5UC for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C3828C37E for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:17:54 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:17:53 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:17:51 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjhOhMpYirw1FcJTp6CR8UtukPm+QAAfEzAAACs7hAAAhtk4A== Message-ID: References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807081334g1335e73dmc48d694fc9d7876b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > Descriptions SHOULD be unique within a given type of subtag so > that users do not become confused about which subtag to use and the > Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD edit any that match existing > descriptions to ensure clarity. For example, the language subtags > 'zza' and 'diq' both have a description in ISO 639-3 of "Dimli"... I replied to Mark earlier describing the 639 data in a way that isn't quite accurate wrt 639-3: in the main, normative, data file, every ID has an associated reference name, and those are required to be unique. There is also an informative Language Names Index file that lists alternate names for each ID (including the reference name); these names are not guaranteed to be unique. So, the reality for 639-3 isn't exactly as you describe it, but probably close enough. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 15:20:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B23028C387; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:20:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B6828C386 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:20:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.724 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.724 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oGfcgHC3o3e2 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3801528C387 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:20:05 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,326,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7218013" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jul 2008 22:20:14 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m68MKDq9013728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:20:14 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:20:13 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:20:12 -0700 Thread-Topic: draft-16 updated on inter-locale. Thread-Index: AcjhSMo4A4tTNKiVToaIROKvwh6LeA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64258@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] draft-16 updated on inter-locale. X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter, in particular, should probably check for my inclusion of fixes to his comments. Diffs are here: http://tinyurl.com/6jgaql hwdiff http://tinyurl.com/58wm3s side-by-side Files live at: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.xml Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 15:31:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD8CA3A6AF3; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:31:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0163A67D4 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:31:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.858 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.858 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.259, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CtiiHsMzo+14 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D82F3A67B2 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:31:25 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:31:25 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:31:23 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1.1 wording Thread-Index: AcjhSloai0ce2PX8QFGe9fv2Xdscaw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 4.1.1 wording X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The current draft (working from what Addison just posted) has this text in 4.1.1: ------------ Each Macrolanguage's subtag, by definition, includes all of its encompassed languages. ------------ I hope I'm not being overly picky if I point out that subtags include charcters (a-z, 0-9) but don't include languages. Suggested revision: ------------ For each Macrolanguage subtag, the scope of its denotation includes, by definition, all of its encompassed languages. ------------ Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 15:43:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275BB3A687A; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:43:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4763A69F1 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:42:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZsFvnS5kKkIW for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807E03A687A for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:43:08 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:43:08 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:43:07 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1.1: sgn-US Thread-Index: AcjhS/3bzK9+kCClT9GTWz9D9My4Kg== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 4.1.1: sgn-US X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The current draft has this wording in 4.1.1: ------------- For example, the grandfathered tag "sgn-US" used to mean 'American Sign Language' specifically, without reference to the United States. ------------- Presumably this grandfathered tag doesn't change its meaning any more than any other grandfathered tag; yet a change in meaning is suggested by the wording "used to mean". Suggested revision: ------------- For example, the grandfathered tag "sgn-US" was registered to represent 'American Sign Language' specifically, without reference to the United States. ------------- Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 15:53:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7833A6B26; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:53:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E79C33A6B26 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.238, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xzs0M1OXOYZi for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451423A69A8 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:53:52 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:53:52 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:53:50 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.2: text in two scripts identical (?) Thread-Index: AcjhTX0RUEubtsNoQJySnQxK74Ct4w== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 4.2: text in two scripts identical (?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The current draft has this text in Section 4.2: ------------- For example, the tag "az" shares a prefix with both "az-Latn" (Azerbaijani written using the Latin script) and "az-Cyrl" (Azerbaijani written using the Cyrillic script). A person fluent in one script might not be able to read the other, even though the text might be identical. ------------- The way I read that, it says that two portions of text content that are in different scripts can somehow be identical -- for me that's impossible (they'd have to have identical character sequences). Suggested revision: ------------- For example, the tag "az" shares a prefix with both "az-Latn" (Azerbaijani written using the Latin script) and "az-Cyrl" (Azerbaijani written using the Cyrillic script). A person fluent in one script might not be able to read the other, even though the linguistic content (e.g., what would be heard if both texts were read aloud) might be identical. ------------- Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 16:45:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2582328C390; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:45:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5270428C378 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:45:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.828 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.828 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.229, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vwETiQ0rwjfD for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223BE28C390 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:45:27 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:45:27 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:45:25 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes Thread-Index: AcjhVLIAxbxu9xR1Q4+4G1ugFRPCdg== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The current draft has this in 4.4.1: ------------- Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags MUST allow for language tags of up to 33 characters. Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags SHOULD allow for language tags of at least 30 characters. Note that RFC 4646 (Phillips, A. and M. Davis, "Tags for Identifying Languages," September 2006.) [RFC4646] recommended a field size of 42 character because... ------------- So, if 33 is required, what's the point of recommending at least 30? Also, note this typo: "42 character" s/ "42 characters". Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 17:15:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C243A6B63; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:15:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FFDF3A6B63 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:15:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3hjKQy1GIOhe for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB14F3A6B61 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so637623yxg.49 for ; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 17:15:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=m+8xFddy8o++aQaBqB4w39MA6UtaMfImuBBWAgHbUKE=; b=k8AIKZOZMa5FfraQt7AKHL5Xufy6BPKrCh3Bgpdvu7su2jw+ktBVLGiByVIK/oQxn0 T5UvtqhFcaoxOVKlxrvfAzmJ5WY0Bugpc8T3Y9efjtoR1AU3FUp804x7Ca8Nmf0LOVuG gDg0pIp+Y74cvAKJnjT0mV+XZiayBAj9SKVU4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; 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[127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053BC28C28B; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:56:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FDA28C288 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.819 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.819 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.220, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uPWWX9LQG+W2 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EE228C28B for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:56:41 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:56:41 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:56:40 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value Thread-Index: AcjhXqWE43Td2GzSSqWUQZ1hsNiqYQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org In the current draft, Section 4.5 lists requirements for canonical form. In those requirements, point 2 states the need to map Region subtags to their preferred value, and point 3 states the need to map Grandfathered and Redundant tags to their preferred value. Then, point 4 states the following: ------------ Other subtags that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry)) MUST be replaced with their mapped value. These items consist entirely of clerical corrections to ISO 639-1 in which the deprecated subtags have been maintained for compatibility purposes. ------------ "Other subtags" here would include any language, extlang, script or variant subtags. Section 3.1.2 indicates that any of these types of subtags potentially can have Preferred-Value mappings. Yet the text I've quoted states that the set of all these cases is limited to clerical corrections in 639-1 (the Javanese and Hebrew cases). That's definitely not the case (e.g. every extlang must have a Preferred-Value field.) Something's not right. (I tried to check if something has changed here since previous drafts, but the Inter-Locale site appears to be down.) Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 18:01:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F433A69F1; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:01:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7C8D3A69F1 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:01:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.811 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.811 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.787, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1sjGZEnWS3VW for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AF73A684D for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:02:06 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:02:06 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:02:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjgWyQFGSd+dkw5RUClOiiCndQycAAAo75gAAB5cEAAEvXHgAAff0EgAA1fkxA= Message-ID: References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> 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<30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807071058t24298681h5048d7fb0bdf3e04@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963D22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94CA5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 917dde00f98d65ac Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1991732303==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1991732303== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_31606_4233752.1215565773576" ------=_Part_31606_4233752.1215565773576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline 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mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1991732303==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 18:11:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525CF3A6879; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:11:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EE03A6879 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:11:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.839 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.839 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.240, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cnrtDU1TTKkt for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF393A683A for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:11:40 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:11:40 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:11:39 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjhYHYTuTyGrmx3TiK3gAHN7HVRYQAADM+A Message-ID: References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807071058t24298681h5048d7fb0bdf3e04@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963D22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94CA5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081809ie8f6ff1ue1e87ea29edb485f@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807081809ie8f6ff1ue1e87ea29edb485f@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.1: casing X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis > That doesn't quite work, since it doesn't account for > the extensions. Precisely. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 18:40:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6C53A68BE; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:40:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAF03A68AF for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:40:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.357 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.357 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.241, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sc6O3Zu7rSLa for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5EEA33A684B for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8794 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2008 01:38:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.29) with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2008 01:38:33 -0000 Message-ID: <5DBA6F588FA2476FA0041609D1F29DBB@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:40:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IDx0PlVzZSBhIHNwZWNpZmljIGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3Mgb3Igc2VxdWVuY2VzIG9mIHN1YnRh Z3MgaW4gCj4gcHJlZmVyZW5jZSB0byBzdWJ0YWdzIGZvciBsYW5ndWFnZSBjb2xsZWN0aW9ucy4g QSAibGFuZ3VhZ2UgCj4gY29sbGVjdGlvbiIgaXMgYSBzdWJ0YWcgdGhhdCByZXByZXNlbnRzIG11 bHRpcGxlIHJlbGF0ZWQgbGFuZ3VhZ2VzLiAKPiBUaGVzZSBjb2Rlcywgd2hpY2ggYXJlIHRoZSBz dWJzZXQgb2YgPHhyZWYgdGFyZ2V0PSJJU082MzktMiI+PC94cmVmPiAKPiB0aGF0IGlzIGFsc28g ZGVmaW5lZCBpbiA8eHJlZiB0YXJnZXQ9IklTTzYzOS01Ij48L3hyZWY+LAoKVGhpcyBpcyBpbmNv cnJlY3Qgb24gdHdvIGNvdW50cy4gIEZpcnN0LCB0aGUgc2V0IG9mIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gY29kZXMg Cmlzbid0IHRoZSBzdWJzZXQgb2YgLTIgY29kZXMgdGhhdCBhcmUgYWxzbyBpbiAtNSwgYmVjYXVz ZSB0aGF0IGltcGxpZXMgCnRoYXQgdGhlIC01IGNvZGVzIHRoYXQgYXJlbid0IGluIC0yIGFyZW4n 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YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 19:47:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BC23A67D6; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:47:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11BD23A67F3 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.099, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6s68ST95P0UZ for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 11B3A3A65A6 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2453 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2008 02:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.33) with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2008 02:47:28 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 20:47:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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2008 20:19:04 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 20:19:00 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjhZMYAim6lxO1tRxaWDyWLQmf1lgADMv1g Message-ID: References: <5DBA6F588FA2476FA0041609D1F29DBB@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <5DBA6F588FA2476FA0041609D1F29DBB@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Doug Ewell > Second, the collection codes in -2 aren't a subset of -5 anyway, > because > of 'bih' and 'day' and 'him' which are in -2 but not -5. Yes, I know - > - > this is supposed to be just a one-time synchronization error, an > isolated anomaly, won't happen again, 639/JAC will be fixing it any day > now. Fine, I just know that they haven't fixed it yet, a month after > it was reported Sigh... At least this week LoC acknowledged that JAC made a decision wrt day to make it a collection and that there was an oversight regarding that in the preparation of 639-5. > > are included as primary language subtags in the registry. The > > 'Description' field of a collection typically includes the word > > "languages" to indicate that it represents more than one language. > > Why don't we simply direct the user to look for the magic field "Scope: > collection" in the Registry, instead of telling her to parse > Description fields for the word "languages" What a concept! (+1) > Should be "In the case of 'cmc', for example, the registry also > contains...." With the current wording, it looks as though only 'cmc' > is special in this regard. +1 > > The subtag 'gem' helps illustrate this further: since it is > > interpreted inclusively, content tagged with "en" (English), "de" > > (German), or "gsw" (Swiss German, Alemannic) could also (but SHOULD > > NOT) be tagged with "gem" (Germanic languages). Obviously, the > > languages in a collection are frequently not mutually intelligible, > as > > this example demonstrates. > > Should be "may not be" or "are not necessarily" mutually intelligible. > This one selected example doesn't demonstrate anything about whether > languages in a collection are "frequently" not mutually intelligible, > although we here on the list know that to be the case. In and of itself, the wording "are frequently not" is OK. I agree, though, that the gsw/de example does not demonstrate *that* claim, whereas Doug's wording, making a lesser claim, would be demonstrated by the example. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 21:43:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3AE828B797; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:43:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277863A686D for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:43:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gmq8GGqCy41h for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC213A6821 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:42:59 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,329,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="73952621" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 04:43:07 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m694h3IV024242 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 9 Jul 2008 04:43:06 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:43:03 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:42:39 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:43:01 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes Thread-Index: AcjhVLIAxbxu9xR1Q4+4G1ugFRPCdgAKV/3Q Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB644F2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Well they're both wrong. The actual number is 34. The text has been modified to read: The considerations for assigning a buffer limit are: Implementations SHOULD NOT truncate language tags unless the meaning of the tag is purposefully being changed, or unless the tag does not fit into a limited buffer size specified by a protocol for storage or transmission. Implementations SHOULD warn the user when a tag is truncated since truncation changes the semantic meaning of the tag. Implementations of protocols or specifications that are space constrained but do not have a fixed limit SHOULD use the longest possible tag in preference to truncation. Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags MUST allow for language tags of up to 34 characters. Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags SHOULD allow for language tags of at least 34 characters. Note that RFC 4646 recommended a field size of 42 characters because it included all three elements of the 'extlang' production. Two of these are now permanently reserved. The current size recommendation does not include the use of the 'extlang' field. Protocols or specifications that commonly use extensions or private use subtags might wish to reserve or recommend a longer "minimum buffer" size. The following illustration shows how the 30-character recommendation was derived:
language = 3 (ISO 639-2; ISO 639-1 requires 2) extlang = 4 (selected ISO 639-3 codes) script = 5 (if not suppressed: see Section 4.1) region = 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166-1 requires 3) variant1 = 9 (needs 'language' as a prefix) variant2 = 9 (needs 'language-variant1' as a prefix) total = 34 characters
Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 4:45 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes > > The current draft has this in 4.4.1: > > ------------- > Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for > language tags MUST allow for language tags of up to 33 characters. > > Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for > language tags SHOULD allow for language tags of at least 30 > characters. Note that RFC 4646 (Phillips, A. and M. Davis, "Tags > for Identifying Languages," September 2006.) [RFC4646] recommended > a field size of 42 character because... > ------------- > > So, if 33 is required, what's the point of recommending at least 30? > > Also, note this typo: "42 character" s/ "42 characters". > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 21:45:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F6F128C0DF; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:45:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4997C28C0DF for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:45:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.383 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.383 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.215, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KUXyvQ0eDPma for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C38B728B797 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1145 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2008 04:45:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.36) with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2008 04:45:51 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:45:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyA8bWFyayBkb3QgZGF2aXMgYXQgaWN1IGRhc2ggcHJvamVjdCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3 cm90ZToKCj4gSSBkaXNhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHRoaXMgY2hhbmdlLiBUaGUgZGVzY3JpcHRpb25zIG5l ZWQgdG8gYmUgdW5pcXVlIHdpdGhpbiAKPiB0aGUgdHlwZSBvZiBmaWVsZC4gV2UgY2FuIGFsd2F5 cyBxdWFsaWZ5IHRoZSBuYW1lcywgZWcgIkFpbnUgKENoaW5hKSIuCgoiQWludSAoQ2hpbmEpIiBj YW1lIGZyb20gSVNPIDYzOS0zLiAgVXAgdW50aWwgbm93LCB3ZSd2ZSBvYmxpZ2VkIApvdXJzZWx2 ZXMgdG8ga2VlcCB0aGUgSVNPIG5hbWVzIGludGFjdC4gIFdlJ3ZlIGFsc28gYWxsb3dlZCBhZGRp 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Tue Jul 8 21:46:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA7028C0E5; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:46:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC1628C0E5 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:46:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.41 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.41 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.188, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JRkypeBLEwJ6 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout07.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout07-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A4D6E28C0DF for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 32749 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2008 04:47:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout07-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.233) with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2008 04:47:01 -0000 Message-ID: <24CB7FFF2B7D42AEBB0293F61A851CD5@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:47:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] grandfathered to redundant? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEluIFNlY3Rpb24gMy40IChpYW5hIHN0YWJpbGl0eSkgd2UgaGF2ZSBydWxlcyBmb3IgdHJhbnNp dGlvbmluZwo+IGdyYW5kZmF0aGVyZWQgdGFncyB0byByZWR1bmRhbnQuIFJlY2VudGx5IHRoZXJl IHdhcyBhIHRocmVhZCBvbiB0aGUKPiBsaXN0IHN1Z2dlc3RpbmcgdGhhdCB0aGUgcmVtYWluaW5n IHJlZ3VsYXIgZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCBsaXN0IGlzCj4gYmFzaWNhbGx5IGNsb3NlZCBhbmQgY2Fu bm90IGJlY29tZSByZWR1bmRhbnQgYmVjYXVzZSBvZiB2YXJpb3VzIG90aGVyCj4gcnVsZXMgd2Ug aGF2ZSBpbiBwbGFjZS4gU2hvdWxkIHdlIG1vZGlmeSB0aGUgdGV4dCB0byBzYXkgdGhpcz8gKEl0 Cj4gd291bGQgYmUgbmljZSB0byBnZXQgcmlkIG9mIGV4dHJhbmVvdXMgcnVsZXMgZm9yIGEgY2hh bmdlKS4KCkdhdWxpc2gga2VlcHMgcG9wcGluZyB1cCBpbiBkaXNjdXNzaW9uLiAgSSB3b3VsZCBo YXRlIHRvIHNlZSB1cyBwdXQgYSAKY2xhdXNlIGludG8gdGhlIGRyYWZ0IHRoYXQgc2F5cyAiY2Vs LWdhdWxpc2ggd2lsbCBuZXZlciwgZXZlciBiZWNvbWUgCnJlZHVuZGFudCIgYW5kIHRoZW4gaWV0 Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgZGVjaWRlcyB0aGV5IEFic29sdXRlbHkgTXVzdCBtYWtlIGFzIAptYW55IEdG IHRhZ3MgcmVkdW5kYW50IGFzIHBvc3NpYmxlLCBhbmQgcmVnaXN0ZXJzICJnYXVsaXNoIiBkZXNw aXRlIHRoZSAKY2xhdXNlLgoKV2UgY291bGQgYWRkIHRoaXMgd29yZGluZywgYnV0IEknbSBub3Qg c3VyZSB3aGF0IHRoZSBwcmFjdGljYWwgYmVuZWZpdCAKaXMsIG9yIHdoZXRoZXIgYW55b25lIG91 dHNpZGUgdGhpcyBsaXN0IHJlYWxseSBjYXJlcyB3aGV0aGVyIHRoZSBsaXN0IGlzIApjbG9zZWQu CgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAq ICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRt bC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcK aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 21:48:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E325D28C0DF; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:48:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E2728C0E5 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:48:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9znZ86ZsqG0m for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309DD28B797 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KGRbP-0005fD-FT; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:48:27 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:48:27 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080709044827.GC15704@mercury.ccil.org> References: <24CB7FFF2B7D42AEBB0293F61A851CD5@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <24CB7FFF2B7D42AEBB0293F61A851CD5@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] grandfathered to redundant? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > Gaulish keeps popping up in discussion. I would hate to see us put a > clause into the draft that says "cel-gaulish will never, ever become > redundant" and then ietf-languages decides they Absolutely Must make as > many GF tags redundant as possible, and registers "gaulish" despite the > clause. Not while *I'm* alive, kiddo. Grandpa -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Half the lies they tell about me are true. --Tallulah Bankhead, American actress _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 21:53:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6CC28C0FD; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:53:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A481828C0FD for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:53:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.823 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.823 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.224, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16kbFmSrXRu2 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD18228B797 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:53:40 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:53:40 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:53:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes Thread-Index: AcjhVLIAxbxu9xR1Q4+4G1ugFRPCdgAKV/3QAABNAZA= Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB644F2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB644F2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > Well they're both wrong. The actual number is 34. I suspected such a number. > The text has been modified to read: ... > Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for > language tags MUST allow for language tags of up to 34 characters. > > Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for > language tags SHOULD allow for language tags of at least > 34 characters. The latter statement seems pointless in light of the former: the former makes the latter mandatory. (That was part of my concern earlier; I should have stated that explicitly.) Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 21:57:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3D23A686D; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:57:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 615653A684F for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:57:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oP8L5BtVlB03 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7E23A67A1 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:57:47 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,329,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="73954957" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 04:57:58 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m694vwoG011188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 9 Jul 2008 04:57:58 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:57:58 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:57:56 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value Thread-Index: AcjhXqWE43Td2GzSSqWUQZ1hsNiqYQAH+/oQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Server at inter-locale should now be up again. This section, as noted, is a mess. I've altered it significantly just now in an attempt to fix Peter's issues, plus others. I quote the text here for archival purposes, but probably you'll want to see it on the document in a few minutes. --
Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes, language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form. A language tag is in canonical form when: The tag is well-formed according the rules in and . Redundant or grandfathered tags that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry (see ) MUST be replaced with their mapped value. These items either are deprecated mappings created before the adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are the result of later registrations or additions to this document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3 code 'hak' when this document was adopted). These mappings SHOULD be done before additional processing, since there can be additional changes to subtag values. These field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redundant tags is an "extended language range" () and might consist of more than one subtag. Subtags of type 'extlang' SHOULD be mapped to their Preferred-Value. The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced with the tag "hak" (Hakka).Other subtags that have a Preferred-Value field in the IANA registry (see ) MUST be replaced with their mapped value. Most of these are either Region subtags where the country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO 639-1. If more than one extension subtag sequence exists, the extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by singleton subtag. Example: The language tag "en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-x-xyz" is in canonical form, while "en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz" is well-formed and potentially valid (extensions 'a' and 'b' are not defined as of the publication of this document) but not in canonical form (the extensions are not in alphabetical order). Example: The language tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is not canonical because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to 'MM' (Myanmar), although the tag "en-BU" maintains its validity. Canonicalization of language tags does not imply anything about the use of upper or lowercase letters when processing or comparing subtags (and as described in ). All comparisons MUST be performed in a case-insensitive manner. When performing canonicalization of language tags, processors MAY regularize the case of the subtags (that is, this process is OPTIONAL), following the case used in the registry (see ). Note: if the field 'Deprecated' appears in a registry record without an accompanying 'Preferred-Value' field, then that tag or subtag is deprecated without a replacement. Validating processors SHOULD NOT generate tags that include these values, although the values are canonical when they appear in a language tag. An extension MUST define any relationships that exist between the various subtags in the extension and thus MAY define an alternate canonicalization scheme for the extension's subtags. Extensions MAY define how the order of the extension's subtags are interpreted. For example, an extension could define that its subtags are in canonical order when the subtags are placed into ASCII order: that is, "en-a-aaa-bbb-ccc" instead of "en-a-ccc-bbb-aaa". Another extension might define that the order of the subtags influences their semantic meaning (so that "en-b-ccc-bbb-aaa" has a different value from "en-b-aaa-bbb-ccc"). However, extension specifications SHOULD be designed so that they are tolerant of the typical processes described in .
-- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 5:57 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to > Preferred-Value > > In the current draft, Section 4.5 lists requirements for canonical > form. In those requirements, point 2 states the need to map Region > subtags to their preferred value, and point 3 states the need to > map Grandfathered and Redundant tags to their preferred value. Then, > point 4 states the following: > > ------------ > Other subtags that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA > registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the IANA Language Subtag > Registry)) MUST be replaced with their mapped value. These items > consist entirely of clerical corrections to ISO 639-1 in which the > deprecated subtags have been maintained for compatibility purposes. > ------------ > > "Other subtags" here would include any language, extlang, script or > variant subtags. Section 3.1.2 indicates that any of these types of > subtags potentially can have Preferred-Value mappings. Yet the text > I've quoted states that the set of all these cases is limited to > clerical corrections in 639-1 (the Javanese and Hebrew cases). > That's definitely not the case (e.g. every extlang must have a > Preferred-Value field.) Something's not right. > > (I tried to check if something has changed here since previous > drafts, but the Inter-Locale site appears to be down.) > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 21:58:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175973A696D; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:58:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F603A696D for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:58:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO 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(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 9 Jul 2008 04:58:49 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:58:48 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:58:24 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:58:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 2.1: casing Thread-Index: AcjgWyQFGSd+dkw5RUClOiiCndQycAAAo75gAAB5cEAAEvXHgAAff0EgAA1fkxAACF3jsA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64507@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080707152919.GM3544@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807071035g1f0b95aeu30a7704abfaafe05@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807071058t24298681h5048d7fb0bdf3e04@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013B963D22@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0793576172==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 22:13:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235243A69A8; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:13:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 318523A69A8 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:13:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.428, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LCw61Plx31nr for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F153A696D for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:13:18 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,329,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="73957205" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 05:13:23 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m695DNAb022293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 9 Jul 2008 05:13:23 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:13:23 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:13:20 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjhZMMljDd5BTg9ReibjkMIqylNwQAG9K+A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64517@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <5DBA6F588FA2476FA0041609D1F29DBB@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <5DBA6F588FA2476FA0041609D1F29DBB@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > This is incorrect on two counts. First, the set of collection > codes > isn't the subset of -2 codes that are also in -5, because that > implies > that the -5 codes that aren't in -2 aren't collection codes. Of > course, > everything in -5 is a collection code. I removed the reference to -2, since, as you point out, it is a subset of the overall list of collections (and a strict subset at that). > > Second, the collection codes in -2 aren't a subset of -5 anyway, > because > of 'bih' and 'day' and 'him' which are in -2 but not -5. Yes, I > know -- > this is supposed to be just a one-time synchronization error, an > isolated anomaly, won't happen again, 639/JAC will be fixing it any > day > now. I'm temporarily pretending that this glitch is a one-time issue that will disappear pre-publication. But we can take that up in draft-17. > > > are included as primary language subtags in the registry. The > > 'Description' field of a collection typically includes the word > > "languages" to indicate that it represents more than one language. > > Why don't we simply direct the user to look for the magic field > "Scope: > collection" in the Registry, instead of telling her to parse > Description > fields for the word "languages" (which will miss Bihari and > Himachali > anyway) or worrying about whether the Registry gives the original > source > of subtags? Argh. Good point. > > > For example, these subtags include "Chamic languages" ('cmc'), > > "Algonquin languages" ('alg'), and "Germanic languages" ('gem'). > Each > > collection is also represented by subtags for the individual > > languages. In the case of 'cmc', the registry also contains the > values > > for each of the approximately ten individual languages > represented by > > this collective code. > > Should be "In the case of 'cmc', for example, the registry also > contains...." With the current wording, it looks as though only > 'cmc' > is special in this regard. Maybe I just read the passage too fast, > but > when the draft is 80+ pages long, it's safe to say I won't be the > last > to do so. +1 > > > The subtag 'gem' helps illustrate this further: since it is > > interpreted inclusively, content tagged with "en" (English), "de" > > (German), or "gsw" (Swiss German, Alemannic) could also (but > SHOULD > > NOT) be tagged with "gem" (Germanic languages). Obviously, the > > languages in a collection are frequently not mutually > intelligible, as > > this example demonstrates. > > Should be "may not be" or "are not necessarily" mutually Well, maybe not "obviously". > intelligible. > This one selected example doesn't demonstrate anything about > whether > languages in a collection are "frequently" not mutually > intelligible, > although we here on the list know that to be the case. > An extensive edit produces: Use a specific language subtags or sequences of subtags in preference to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a subtag that represents multiple related languages. These codes, which comprise the set of codes, are included as primary language subtags in the registry. The 'Scope' field for a collection has the value 'collection'. Two illustrative examples of collections as language subtags are "Chamic languages" ('cmc') and "Germanic languages" ('gem'). Each of these collections is also represented by subtags for the individual languages. In the case of 'cmc', for example, the registry also contains the values for each of the approximately ten individual languages represented by this collective code. Collections are interpreted inclusively, so content tagged with "en" (English), "de" (German), or "gsw" (Swiss German, Alemannic) could (but SHOULD NOT) be tagged with "gem" (Germanic languages), which includes all of these (and other) languages. Languages in a collection are often not mutually intelligible and, while subtags derived from collection codes MAY be used when more specific language information is not available, most tag processes and users do not understand the relationship between the collection and its encompassed languages. Thus, users ought not assume a subtag based on a language collection is a useful means for selecting or identifying content in its encompassed languages. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 22:14:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B583A6A1F; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:14:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51EB3A6839 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:14:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.816 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.816 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.217, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSDkLndwROIC for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 286923A696D for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:14:48 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:14:48 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:14:43 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except by prior agreement) Thread-Index: AcjhgrJkMPOdx795Rx6MXAr5OAC3mw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except by prior agreement) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The current draft has this in Section 4.6: ------------ Subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a specific private use meaning convey more information that a purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. ------------ Strictly speaking, that's not true: a private-use *subtag* conveys *no* information (except by private convention -- which is clearly not assumed in this statement), and so cannot convey more information than anything else. Suggested revision: ------------ Tags created using subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a specific private use meaning can convey more information that a purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. ------------ Also, this wording is a bit problematic: ------------ However, in some cases content tagged with private use subtags MAY interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable manner compared to tags that use opaque, privately defined subtags, so the choice of the best approach sometimes depends on the particular domain in question. ------------ Tags that use private-use subtags vs. tags that use opaque, privately-defined subtags? Those sound the same. Suggested revision: ------------ However, in some cases content tagged with private-use subtags MAY interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable manner compared to tags that use opaque, private-use subtag sequences prefixed by 'x', so the choice of the best approach sometimes depends on the particular domain in question. ------------ Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 22:15:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01DFD3A69E6; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:15:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DD13A696A for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:15:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.674 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.674 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.675, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BikhCOACgt8T for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115693A67DB for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:15:16 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,329,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="73957456" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 05:15:27 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m695FRPD006360; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 05:15:27 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:15:26 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:15:24 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjhbiUnmb7ZFQtIQDSeB7ZGVjFGMAAFGxvw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6451A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSBzcGVjaWZpY2FsbHkgbGVmdCBpdCBpbiB0aGUgaGFuZHMgb2YgdGhlIExTUiBhbmQgY29ob3J0 cy4gVGhhdCBzZWVtcyBsaWtlIGEgcmVhc29uYWJsZSB3YXkgdG8gZ2V0IG91dCBvZiBzcGVsbGlu ZyBvdXQgZXZlcnkgcG9zc2libGUgQmFkIFZhcmlhdGlvbi4NCg0KPg0KPiBUaGlzIGlzIGEgbWF0 dGVyIGZvciBMVFJVLCBub3QgaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMsIGJlY2F1c2Ugd2UgYXJlIHRoZQ0KPiBv bmVzDQo+IHB1dHRpbmcgdG9nZXRoZXIgZHJhZnQtNDY0NWJpcy4gIEl0IHdvdWxkLCBob3dldmVy LCBmYWxsIHRvDQo+IGlldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIHRvIG1ha2Ugc2ltaWxhciBkZWNpc2lvbnMgZHVy aW5nIHRoZSBtYWludGVuYW5jZQ0KPiBwaGFzZS4NCg0KRGVzY3JpcHRpb25zIGNhbiBiZSByZWdp c3RlcmVkIGlmIExUUlUgZ2V0cyBpdCAid3JvbmciIChvciBhdCBsZWFzdCBsZXNzIGRlc2lyYWJs ZSkgc29tZWhvdy4gV2Ugc2hvdWxkIGFsbG93IGlldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIHRvIGRvIHNvbWV0aGlu ZyB1c2VmdWwgd2hlbiB3ZSdyZSBkb25lLg0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQoNCkFkZGlzb24gUGhpbGxpcHMN Ckdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJjaGl0ZWN0IC0tIExhYjEyNg0KDQpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlv biBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLg0KDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1P 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DQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 22:18:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559283A6782; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:18:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013E63A6782 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:18:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.431 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.431 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBa7BVM-2F-4 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A5563A63D3 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6545 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2008 05:18:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.33) with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2008 05:18:22 -0000 Message-ID: <66305FBECFCF4EFF85B40EADA80738EC@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <5DBA6F588FA2476FA0041609D1F29DBB@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64517@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:18:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEFuIGV4dGVuc2l2ZSBlZGl0IHByb2R1Y2VzOgoKKzEKCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFk YSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2Vs bGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5o dG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3Vh Z2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18K THRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 22:25:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4E633A6880; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:25:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09BF63A67D8 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:25:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3IaKfQG-nZwa for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2AF4D3A6782 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24657 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2008 05:25:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.39) with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2008 05:25:40 -0000 Message-ID: <3753F26DF64A4A70A16D4AB6888FB3BF@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6451A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:25:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEkgc3BlY2lmaWNhbGx5IGxlZnQgaXQgaW4gdGhlIGhhbmRzIG9mIHRoZSBMU1IgYW5kIGNvaG9y dHMuIFRoYXQgc2VlbXMgCj4gbGlrZSBhIHJlYXNvbmFibGUgd2F5IHRvIGdldCBvdXQgb2Ygc3Bl bGxpbmcgb3V0IGV2ZXJ5IHBvc3NpYmxlIEJhZCAKPiBWYXJpYXRpb24uCj4+Cj4+IFRoaXMgaXMg YSBtYXR0ZXIgZm9yIExUUlUsIG5vdCBpZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcywgYmVjYXVzZSB3ZSBhcmUgdGhl IAo+PiBvbmVzIHB1dHRpbmcgdG9nZXRoZXIgZHJhZnQtNDY0NWJpcy4gIEl0IHdvdWxkLCBob3dl dmVyLCBmYWxsIHRvIAo+PiBpZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyB0byBtYWtlIHNpbWlsYXIgZGVjaXNpb25z IGR1cmluZyB0aGUgbWFpbnRlbmFuY2UgCj4+IHBoYXNlLgo+Cj4gRGVzY3JpcHRpb25zIGNhbiBi ZSByZWdpc3RlcmVkIGlmIExUUlUgZ2V0cyBpdCAid3JvbmciIChvciBhdCBsZWFzdCAKPiBsZXNz IGRlc2lyYWJsZSkgc29tZWhvdy4gV2Ugc2hvdWxkIGFsbG93IGlldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIHRvIGRv IAo+IHNvbWV0aGluZyB1c2VmdWwgd2hlbiB3ZSdyZSBkb25lLgoKQXJlIHlvdSBwcm9wb3Npbmcg dGhhdCB0aGUgUmV2aWV3ZXIgYW5kIGNvaG9ydHMgYmUgYWxsb3dlZCB0byByZXZpZXcgdGhlIAo0 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-0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6EC13A6839 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:33:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mNbCzVMRdaO5 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org (smtp1.wsfo.org [208.145.81.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E08D3A67A6 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m695Xf9W000545 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 01:33:41 -0400 X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.75 (ClamAV engine v0.93) Received: from [118.172.34.155] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO sil-mh4) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPSA id 186931262 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:33:40 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:33:44 +0700 From: Martin Hosken To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 172.22.0.51 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Anderson, > -- >
I would propose adding (to draft-15): 6. Redundant script tags which are the same as the suppressed script for a language are not present. In addition, I would like to ask about fonipa and fonupa. Currently in 4645 they have no prefix, which makes sense since they can be used with any language. But they can only be used with Latn script. In fact, they imply Latn script. So what should the canonical form of Eastern Bru in IPA be? bru-Latn-fonipa or can we in some way indicate the implication of Latn by fonipa and just use: bru-fonipa I would suggest that if we want to do this, then specifying a prefix in the record for fonipa, of Latn would be sufficient although we may want some wording somewhere along the lines of: Where the prefix tag for a variant consists of a script, that variant implies the presence of that prefix and the prefix is required not to exist in the canonical form of the tag. Yours, Martin Hosken _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 22:36:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C3F3A67D8; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:36:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BF63A67D8 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:36:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yhJWLnvwDCv9 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F02A83A63D3 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:36:43 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,329,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="73960997" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 05:36:55 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m695at5J011730; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 05:36:55 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:36:55 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:36:51 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes Thread-Index: AcjhVLIAxbxu9xR1Q4+4G1ugFRPCdgAKV/3QAABNAZAAAW2fkA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64522@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB644F2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Another artifact. The original requirement was: - MUST allow 33 - SHOULD allow 42 The smaller limit was because extlangs weren't actually permitted... however... a close examination of the text in 4646 reveals that 34 is ALSO not the number. That's because a registered primary language subtag is now longer than a language-extlang sequence. Hence: Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags MUST allow for language tags of at least 35 characters. Note that RFC 4646 recommended a field size of 42 characters because it included all three elements of the 'extlang' production. Two of these are now permanently reserved, so a registered primary language subtag of the maximum length of eight characters is now longer than the longest language-extlang combintation. Protocols or specifications that commonly use extensions or private use subtags might wish to reserve or recommend a longer "minimum buffer" size. And the art: language = 8 (longest registered value) script = 5 (if not suppressed: see Section 4.1) region = 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166-1 requires 3) variant1 = 9 (needs 'language' as a prefix) variant2 = 9 (needs 'language-variant1' as a prefix) total = 35 characters Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 9:54 PM > To: Phillips, Addison; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes > > > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > > > > Well they're both wrong. The actual number is 34. > > I suspected such a number. > > > > The text has been modified to read: > > ... > > Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes > for > > language tags MUST allow for language tags of up to 34 > characters. > > > > Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes > for > > language tags SHOULD allow for language tags of at least > > 34 characters. > > The latter statement seems pointless in light of the former: the > former makes the latter mandatory. (That was part of my concern > earlier; I should have stated that explicitly.) > > > > Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 22:46:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB453A67DB; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:46:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90983A6839 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.833, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zfBMyqMNRCGY for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85213A67DB for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:46:55 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,329,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="84523102" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 05:47:04 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m695l3mH006338 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 9 Jul 2008 05:47:03 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:47:03 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Hosken , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:46:57 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value Thread-Index: AcjhhVy3kWE/xqRnS6uKfDAL8IVHcgAAJIew Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > I would propose adding (to draft-15): > > 6. Redundant script tags which are the same as the suppressed > script for a language are not present. (technical hat) We can't do that. There are valid reasons why someone might use a script subtag in this way (we actually spell some of them out). Canonicalization that removes real subtag distinctions would be bad, even if we suggest that such a tag choice is not wise in the vast preponderance of cases. > > In addition, I would like to ask about fonipa and fonupa. Currently > in 4645 they have no prefix, which makes sense since they can be > used with any language. But they can only be used with Latn script. > In fact, they imply Latn script. So what should the canonical form > of Eastern Bru in IPA be? > > bru-Latn-fonipa > > or can we in some way indicate the implication of Latn by fonipa > and just use: > > bru-fonipa Not in the registry, but not everything can or should be done in the registry. If you use 'fonipa' you most certainly understand that the text is in some inscrutable phonetic alphabet. A script subtag is probably not a good tagging choice at all in this case. > > I would suggest that if we want to do this, then specifying a > prefix in the record for fonipa, of Latn would be sufficient > although we may want some wording somewhere along the lines of: > > Where the prefix tag for a variant consists of a script, that > variant implies the presence of that prefix and the prefix is > required not to exist in the canonical form of the tag. Prefixes never consist of "a script". They consist of language ranges. We could achieve the effect you want by changing the range to an extended language range. The record would then look something like: Subtag: fonipa Prefix: *-Latn But this would have the negative effect of disallowing a tag such as "bru-fonipa", which I think is a perfectly fine tag: it would require the form "*-Latn-*-fonipa". Furthermore, 'fonipa' doesn't really imply "Latin script". It implies characters from the latin script, certainly. But this is not the same thing. Especially since some of the IPA characters aren't Latin script at all! Best Regards, Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 22:50:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0BC3A684F; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FBD73A684F for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.809 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.809 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.210, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xY06s+Rl3F33 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B88B3A67DB for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:46 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,329,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7356602" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 05:50:56 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m695osl1019139; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 05:50:54 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:53 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:51 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjhhD6BFS+QkCygSB+fdFA+ufioMwAAv0+w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6451A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3753F26DF64A4A70A16D4AB6888FB3BF@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <3753F26DF64A4A70A16D4AB6888FB3BF@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Are you proposing that the Reviewer and cohorts be allowed to > review the > 4645bis Registry for this type of duplication, and resolve each > case > unilaterally? Not exactly: I'm proposing that the text in the various drafts that allow the Description fields to be modified using the registration process means that the Reviewer and cohorts be allowed to review requests for changes (which they can initiate) and resolve each case "unilaterally", provided "unilaterally" is understood to mean "a decision taken by the LSR subject to rough consensus of ietf-languages and subject to the usual appeals". The text also says that the Reviewer (and cohorts) have broad editorial powers when registering changes by the ISO folks at the time a record addition/modification is *proposed*. The results, of course, are subject to the definition of "unilaterally" given above :-D. > > (rubs hands gleefully) > > At what point can we establish that the WG has agreed to this, so > we can > get started? > Now is good. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 22:57:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81EE13A67D8; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:57:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E7C3A67D8 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:57:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.461 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.461 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.137, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ue5Z95sa+tqF for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 602523A6782 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4605 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2008 05:57:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.36) with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2008 05:57:14 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:57:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFydGluIEhvc2tlbiA8bWFydGluIHVuZGVyc2NvcmUgaG9za2VuIGF0IHNpbCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3 cm90ZToKCj4gSW4gYWRkaXRpb24sIEkgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBhc2sgYWJvdXQgZm9uaXBhIGFu ZCBmb251cGEuIEN1cnJlbnRseSBpbiAKPiA0NjQ1IHRoZXkgaGF2ZSBubyBwcmVmaXgsIHdoaWNo IG1ha2VzIHNlbnNlIHNpbmNlIHRoZXkgY2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgCj4gd2l0aCBhbnkgbGFuZ3VhZ2Uu IEJ1dCB0aGV5IGNhbiBvbmx5IGJlIHVzZWQgd2l0aCBMYXRuIHNjcmlwdC4gSW4gCj4gZmFjdCwg dGhleSBpbXBseSBMYXRuIHNjcmlwdC4gU28gd2hhdCBzaG91bGQgdGhlIGNhbm9uaWNhbCBmb3Jt IG9mIAo+IEVhc3Rlcm4gQnJ1IGluIElQQSBiZT8KPgo+IGJydS1MYXRuLWZvbmlwYQo+Cj4gb3Ig Y2FuIHdlIGluIHNvbWUgd2F5IGluZGljYXRlIHRoZSBpbXBsaWNhdGlvbiBvZiBMYXRuIGJ5IGZv bmlwYSBhbmQgCj4ganVzdCB1c2U6Cj4KPiBicnUtZm9uaXBhCgpTaW5jZSwgYXMgeW91IHBvaW50 IG91dCwgdGhlIHZhcmlhbnQgc3VidGFncyAnZm9uaXBhJyBhbmQgJ2ZvbnVwYScgCmltcGxpY2l0 bHkgaWRlbnRpZnkgdGhlIHNjcmlwdCBhcyBMYXRpbiwgaXQgaXMgbm90IG5lY2Vzc2FyeSB0byB1 c2UgCidMYXRuJyBhbG9uZyB3aXRoIG9uZSBvZiB0aGVzZSB2YXJpYW50cy4gIFRoZXJlIGlzIG5v IG1lY2hhbmlzbSBpbiAKZWl0aGVyIHRoZSBSZWdpc3RyeSBvciBSRkMgNDY0NiB0byBpbmRpY2F0 ZSB0aGlzLgoKPiBJIHdvdWxkIHN1Z2dlc3QgdGhhdCBpZiB3ZSB3YW50IHRvIGRvIHRoaXMsIHRo ZW4gc3BlY2lmeWluZyBhIHByZWZpeCAKPiBpbiB0aGUgcmVjb3JkIGZvciBmb25pcGEsIG9mIExh dG4gd291bGQgYmUgc3VmZmljaWVudCBhbHRob3VnaCB3ZSBtYXkgCj4gd2FudCBzb21lIHdvcmRp bmcgc29tZXdoZXJlIGFsb25nIHRoZSBsaW5lcyBvZjoKPgo+IFdoZXJlIHRoZSBwcmVmaXggdGFn IGZvciBhIHZhcmlhbnQgY29uc2lzdHMgb2YgYSBzY3JpcHQsIHRoYXQgdmFyaWFudCAKPiBpbXBs aWVzIHRoZSBwcmVzZW5jZSBvZiB0aGF0IHByZWZpeCBhbmQgdGhlIHByZWZpeCBpcyByZXF1aXJl ZCBub3QgdG8gCj4gZXhpc3QgaW4gdGhlIGNhbm9uaWNhbCBmb3JtIG9mIHRoZSB0YWcuCgpGaXJz dCwgYSBzY3JpcHQgc3VidGFnLCBieSBpdHNlbGYsIGNhbm5vdCBiZSBhIHByZWZpeCBmb3IgYW55 dGhpbmcuIApTZWNvbmQsIHRoaXMgd291bGQgdHVybiB0aGUgY29uY2VwdCBvZiBhIHByZWZpeCBj b21wbGV0ZWx5IHVwc2lkZSBkb3duOyAKbm9ybWFsbHkgYSBwcmVmaXggb2Ygc3VidGFnIFggaXMg YSBzdWJ0YWcgb3IgdGFnIHRoYXQgTVVTVCBleGlzdCBpbiBhIAp0YWcgY29udGFpbmluZyBzdWJ0 YWcgWC4KCldoYXQgeW91IGFyZSBsb29raW5nIGZvciBpcyBzb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZSBTdXBwcmVz cy1TY3JpcHQsIGJ1dCBmb3IgCnZhcmlhbnRzIGluc3RlYWQgb2YgbGFuZ3VhZ2VzLgoKLS0KRG91 ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMx NApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRl cnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8v d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 22:59:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF55E3A6863; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:59:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A293A6863 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:59:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.850, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IttKJsWTGHNi for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4FC53A67DB for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,329,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="84526255" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 05:59:13 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m695xCYN017714 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 05:59:13 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:59:12 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:58:48 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:59:09 -0700 Thread-Topic: draft-16 submitted... Thread-Index: AcjhiOe0bgjx6uEgR+uycVDqZPNQhQ== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64530@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] draft-16 submitted... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat on) I have just now submitted draft-16 in its current state. I show my backlog of emails/etc needing response having at least 8 messages in it and I note that Mark and Peter both have objections to text outstanding. However, I will now start to burn integers (new drafts) more quickly in an effort to keep the changes manageable. It will make discussion of changes easier too. The current documents are posted on Inter-Locale. My server log suggests we are having a good time diffing versions. http://tinyurl.com/6jgaql hwdiff http://tinyurl.com/58wm3s side-by-side Files live at: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.xml I will update inter-locale to have draft-17 as editor's copy in the morning. Best Regards, Addison (for the editors) Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 23:00:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112A63A6950; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:00:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@ietf.org Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 7DD8B3A684F; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:00:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20080709060001.7DD8B3A684F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.txt Pages : 84 Date : 2008-07-08 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-07-08225536.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 23:11:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20AE3A6839; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565573A6839 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:11:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.81 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.81 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.211, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fk0IdX0SXCec for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC8C3A6782 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:11:32 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:11:32 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Martin Hosken , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:11:27 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value Thread-Index: AcjhhVzEz9M4nJB3TFC+2mP1ukTzXwAAGfzQ Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Martin Hosken > >
> > I would propose adding (to draft-15): Presumably this would be in 16. > 6. Redundant script tags which are the same as the suppressed script > for a language are not present. IIUC, you're saying that a canonical tag won't have a script subtag if that subtag is given in the Suppress-Script field in the subtag record for the language subtag used in that tag. (E.g., suppose language subtag 'aa' has Suppress-Script: 'Bbbb'; then tags of the form "aa-(xxx-)Bbbb..." are not canonical.) Is that right? Two problems: first, you don't suggest how to produce a canonical equivalent for any given tag. Secondly, while "en-Latn" is not generally recommended, there may be application scenarios in which it is appropriate, perhaps used in contrast to something like "en-Hang", in which case the canonical form should include the normally-suppressed script subtag. > In addition, I would like to ask about fonipa and fonupa. Currently in > 4645 they have no prefix, which makes sense since they can be used with > any language. But they can only be used with Latn script. In fact, they > imply Latn script. So what should the canonical form of Eastern Bru in > IPA be? > > bru-Latn-fonipa > > or can we in some way indicate the implication of Latn by fonipa and > just use: > > bru-fonipa By that line of reasoning, the canonical form for "fr-1694acad" could be simply "1694acad" -- except that that's not even well formed. You could remove script or region subtags in deriving a canonical tag if they were specified as the prefix for a variant, but they would have to be the *only* prefix for that variant (else the canonical form wouldn't be deterministic), and you'd end up with a canonical tag that is not valid, and not likely the same as what is used anywhere else. Comparisons would not be any easier, and we couldn't suggest that these canonical forms actually be what gets generated and used in interchange. That is, if these got a Prefix field and you were eliminating the prefix. Alternatively, I suppose you could allow Suppress-Script or Suppress-Region fields for variant subtags and use that in deriving canonical tags, but that just means adding more machinery. Either way, I think this would just get complicated for no particular gain. My inclination would be to say that 'fonipa' should require a prefix of 'Latn' (probably specified as an extended language range "*-Latn"), and always require that script tag be included, even if that seems redundant. It's clear that, in many cases such as "fr-1694acad" or "sl-nedis", we already end up requiring some degree of redundancy in the tag; I don't see a problem doing that in these cases. > I would suggest that if we want to do this, then specifying a prefix in > the record for fonipa, of Latn would be sufficient although we may want > some wording somewhere along the lines of: > > Where the prefix tag for a variant consists of a script, that variant > implies the presence of that prefix and the prefix is required not to > exist in the canonical form of the tag. But there's the rub: we'd be saying in one place that prefix SHOULD be included in tags with the given variant, but in another place that they not be used in the canonical form, and that the caonical form SHOULD be used. Not very self-consistent. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 23:14:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C843A683D; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:14:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0483A683D for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:14:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.803 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.803 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.204, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id skgLriQUuUWY for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCFE3A6839 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:14:20 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:14:21 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:14:11 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes Thread-Index: AcjhVLIAxbxu9xR1Q4+4G1ugFRPCdgAKV/3QAABNAZAAAW2fkAABciIA Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB644F2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64522@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64522@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: FNyk H1Ix I/9S J00q M1iC M23H NJ8X OZVa P8TZ RoDP TL/j Uhjh UxEq VpHD WPso Wkuf; 2; YQBkAGQAaQBzAG8AbgBAAGEAbQBhAHoAbwBuAC4AYwBvAG0AOwBsAHQAcgB1AEAAaQBlAHQAZgAuAG8AcgBnAA==; Sosha1_v1; 7; {20E71B8D-73A5-44F6-A3FF-D0185E5CEB55}; cABlAHQAZQByAGMAbwBuAEAAbQBpAGMAcgBvAHMAbwBmAHQALgBjAG8AbQA=; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 06:14:11 GMT; UgBFADoAIAA0AC4ANAAuADEAOgAgAGwAaQBtAGkAdABlAGQAIABiAHUAZgBmAGUAcgAgAHMAaQB6AGUAcwA= x-cr-puzzleid: {20E71B8D-73A5-44F6-A3FF-D0185E5CEB55} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > Hence: > > Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for > language tags MUST allow for language tags of at least > 35 characters. Note that RFC 4646 > recommended a field size of 42 characters... Small suggested revision: "...recommended a minimum field size of 42 characters..." Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 23:21:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF0C3A684F; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF253A6839 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:21:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.199, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VQsmvEpB0kBe for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07F03A684F for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:22:00 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:22:00 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:21:55 -0700 Thread-Topic: Latn and fonipa Thread-Index: AcjhhVy3kWE/xqRnS6uKfDAL8IVHcgAAJIewAAFRrzA= Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] OT: Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Phillips, Addison > Furthermore, 'fonipa' doesn't really imply > "Latin script". It implies characters from the latin script, certainly. > But this is not the same thing. Especially since some of the IPA > characters aren't Latin script at all! This is really more appropriate for the other list, but... >From Section 4.2: "[T]he use of a script subtag such as 'Arab' (Arabic script) does not mean that the content contains only Arabic characters. It does mean that the language involved is predominantly in the Arabic script." IMO, it would be entirely appropriate to say that IPA phonetic transcription is always "in" the Latin script and to give 'fonipa' a Prefix field of *-Latn-*. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 23:37:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FEA23A69FE; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:37:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A093A69D5 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:37:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.646, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FP9PUozZn8k9 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org (smtp1.wsfo.org [208.145.81.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74603A69FE for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m696b9fY004002 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 02:37:10 -0400 X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.75 (ClamAV engine v0.93) Received: from [118.172.34.155] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO sil-mh4) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPSA id 186935483 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 02:37:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:37:13 +0700 From: Martin Hosken Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20080709133713.75d42fef@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 172.22.0.51 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Peter and also Addison, > > > 6. Redundant script tags which are the same as the suppressed script > > for a language are not present. > > IIUC, you're saying that a canonical tag won't have a script subtag if that subtag is given in the Suppress-Script field in the subtag record for the language subtag used in that tag. (E.g., suppose language subtag 'aa' has Suppress-Script: 'Bbbb'; then tags of the form "aa-(xxx-)Bbbb..." are not canonical.) Is that right? Yes, as per 3.1.8 which says that tags SHOULD NOT specify the script if it is the same as a suppressed script. > Two problems: first, you don't suggest how to produce a canonical equivalent for any given tag. How about: 6. A script subtag that is the same as the suppress-script script subtag for the language MUST be removed. >Secondly, while "en-Latn" is not generally recommended, there may be application scenarios in which it is appropriate, perhaps used in contrast to something like "en-Hang", in which case the canonical form should include the normally-suppressed script subtag. ? What's wrong with "en-Hang" and "en" in that case? Are we saying that something that one part of the standard says you SHOULD NOT do is still considered appropriate for a canonical tag? If you want to be very explicit nobody is saying you CANNOT use "en-Latn" just that it isn't canonical. > > bru-Latn-fonipa > > > > or can we in some way indicate the implication of Latn by fonipa and > > just use: > > > > bru-fonipa > > By that line of reasoning, the canonical form for "fr-1694acad" could be simply "1694acad" -- except that that's not even well formed. You could remove script or region subtags in deriving a canonical tag if they were specified as the prefix for a variant, but they would have to be the *only* prefix for that variant (else the canonical form wouldn't be deterministic), and you'd end up with a canonical tag that is not valid, and not likely the same as what is used anywhere else. Comparisons would not be any easier, and we couldn't suggest that these canonical forms actually be what gets generated and used in interchange. Yes I'm rapidly going off prefix here :) > That is, if these got a Prefix field and you were eliminating the prefix. Alternatively, I suppose you could allow Suppress-Script or Suppress-Region fields for variant subtags and use that in deriving canonical tags, but that just means adding more machinery. Well it depends whether you want to have redundant information in your tags or a more complex analyser. There's plenty enough machinery in an analyser already and I would suggest that much of it is just as spurious. So what's a little more? :) > Either way, I think this would just get complicated for no particular gain. My inclination would be to say that 'fonipa' should require a prefix of 'Latn' (probably specified as an extended language range "*-Latn"), and always require that script tag be included, even if that seems redundant. It's clear that, in many cases such as "fr-1694acad" or "sl-nedis", we already end up requiring some degree of redundancy in the tag; I don't see a problem doing that in these cases. I don't have a problem with this, although it's different from what I have been told regarding fonipa before that said that the Latn can be implied. So which is canonically correct: en-fonipa (Latn removed by suppress script on en) or en-Latn-fonipa (since *-Latn is the prefix for fonipa)? > But there's the rub: we'd be saying in one place that prefix SHOULD be included in tags with the given variant, but in another place that they not be used in the canonical form, and that the caonical form SHOULD be used. Not very self-consistent. I agree, and withdraw the Prefix hack suggestion. So there are choices before us: 1. Add Prefix: *-Latn and probably require en-Latn-fonipa 2. Add Suppress Script: Latn to a variant and increase complexity slightly but I think, that would solve the whole issue relatively simply. 3. Do nothing and allow en-fonipa but bru-Latn-fonipa Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 23:48:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A718A3A6839; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:48:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E643A6839 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:48:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.193, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FcjDIGwXrmp3 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A92B3A67C0 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:49:06 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:49:06 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:49:01 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in 4645 Thread-Index: AcjgYuoz2jX3TjXMQKW1+zzHaTij5gAG/OqAAEQxvdA= Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA9422D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA9422D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in 4645 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Can I suggest, then, that you provide a more specific reference: "... listed as eligible for registration in Section 4 of [RFC 4645]..." Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 3:19 PM > To: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in 4645 > > It is still valid. The reference in question in RFC 4645 is: > > -- > 4. Omitted Code Elements > > The following code elements from [UN_M.49] were not associated with > [ISO3166-1] alpha-2 code elements. Consequently, they were not > assigned as subtags in the initial Language Subtag Registry, but > were > valid candidates for registration as region subtags, using the > process in [RFC4646]: > > 830 Channel Islands > 831 Guernsey > 832 Jersey > 833 Isle of Man > > The last three became ineligible for registration in April, 2006, > when the [ISO3166-1] code elements GG, JE, and IM were assigned as > region subtags. > -- > > Thus, '830' is still valid for registration. At one time, the rules > were even more permissive (hence this text). Incidentally, this > reference is why RFC 4645 is still a normative reference in draft- > 4646bis. > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Peter Constable > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 11:55 AM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in > > 4645 > > > > Draft 16 currently has this wording: > > > > ------------ > > E. UN numeric codes and ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 codes for countries or > > areas listed as eligible for registration in [RFC4645] but not > > presently registered MAY be entered into the IANA registry via the > > process described in Section 3.5 (Registration Procedure for > > Subtags). Once registered, these codes MAY be used to form language > > tags. > > ------------ > > > > The intended reference isn't clear: I don't see a M.46 or 3166-1 > > codes listed in 4645 as eligible for registration. (The closest I > > see are a set of M.49 codes that are *in*eligible for registration.) > > Is this paragraph an anachronism that is no longer needed? If it > > still has a useful purpose, then it might help to clear up the > > wording. > > > > > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 00:01:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF6B3A696A; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:01:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5AFB3A696A for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:01:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.276 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.276 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.323, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dKnpe-V68vXl for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org (smtp1.wsfo.org [208.145.81.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F3E3A683B for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m6971U8N005394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 03:01:30 -0400 X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.75 (ClamAV engine v0.93) Received: from [118.172.34.155] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO sil-mh4) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPSA id 186937857 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 03:01:29 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:01:34 +0700 From: Martin Hosken To: "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 172.22.0.51 Subject: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear All, I may have missed something in my reading but strong things are written about extension authorities having to provide canonicalizations for their subvariants, but I can find no canonicalization criteria for registered variants. e.g. is it en-boont-fonipa, en-fonipa-boont, en-Latn-boont-fonipa, en-Latn-fonipa-boont Yours, Martin Hosken _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 00:19:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF5F3A6905; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:19:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103063A6905 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:19:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.787 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.787 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.188, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NU79pE5uDD-u for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4994B3A6839 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:19:33 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:19:33 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:19:28 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjhEz2okR8m50G/Q3ipztw0Bnx0QAACOiRwAB3EUMA= Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org PiBGcm9tOiBQaGlsbGlwcywgQWRkaXNvbiBbbWFpbHRvOmFkZGlzb25AYW1hem9uLmNvbV0NCg0K PiA+IDIuIFRoZSBmaXJzdCBpdGVtaXplZCBwYXJhZ3JhcGggZGlzY3Vzc2VzIGNvbGxlY3Rpb25z Li4uDQoNCj4gPiBJIGZpbmQgdGhlIHdvcmRpbmcgY3JlYXRlcyBhIGZlZWwgb2YgZGlzY29udGlu dWl0eSBmcm9tIHRoZSBpbnRybw0KPiA+IHBhcmFncmFwaCBhcyBpdCdzIG5vdCBvYnZpb3VzIGhv dyB0aGlzIHJlbGF0ZXMgdG8gNjM5LTIsDQo+ID4gcGFydGljdWxhcmx5IGdpdmVuIHRoZSByZWZl cmVuY2UgdG8gNjM5LTUuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBTdWdnZXN0ZWQgcmV2aXNpb246DQo+ID4gLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KPiA+IElTTyA2MzktMiBpbmNsdWRlcyBjb2RlcyBmb3IgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgY29s bGVjdGlvbnMsIGFzIGRvZXMgW0lTTw0KPiA+IDYzOS01XS4gQSAibGFuZ3VhZ2UgY29sbGVjdGlv biIgY29kZSByZXByZXNlbnRzIG11bHRpcGxlIHJlbGF0ZWQNCj4gPiBsYW5ndWFnZXMuIFRoZXNl IGNvZGVzIGFyZSBpbmNsdWRlZCBhcyBwcmltYXJ5IGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3MgaW4NCj4gPiB0 aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkuIEhvd2V2ZXIsIHNwZWNpZmljIGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3Mgb3Igc3VidGFn DQo+ID4gc2VxdWVuY2VzIFNIT1VMRCBiZSB1c2VkIGluIHByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gc3VidGFncyBm b3IgbGFuZ3VhZ2UNCj4gPiBjb2xsZWN0aW9ucy4gRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUuLi4NCj4gPiAtLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+DQo+IEkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIGZpcnN0IHNlbnRlbmNlIGlzIHNvbWV3aGF0IGFy dGlmaWNpYWwgKGFzIGlzIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbA0KPiBwYXJhKTogeW91IGNhbid0IHRlbGwgdGhl IHNvdXJjZSBmcm9tIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeSBhbnl3YXkuDQo+DQo+IFlvdXIgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIHJl dmlzaW9uIGRvZXNuJ3QgZm9sbG93IHRoZSBwYXR0ZXJuIGZvciBvdGhlciBpdGVtcyBoZXJlLA0K PiB3aGljaCBhbGwgc3RhcnQgd2l0aCBzcGVjaWZpYyBhZHZpY2UuIFRodXMgSSBtb2RpZmllZCB0 aGUgcGFyYS4uLg0KDQpZb3UgaGFkIHNvbWUgZm9sbG93LW9uIGNvbW1lbnRzLCBhbmQgaW4gdGhl IGVuZCB0aGVyZSdzIGp1c3QgYSByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gSVNPIDYzOS01LCB3aGljaCBzdGlsbCBs ZWF2ZXMgYSBkaXNjb250aW51aXR5IGZyb20gdGhlIGludHJvIHBhcmFncmFwaCBhbmQgaXRzIHJl ZmVyZW5jZSB0byA2MzktMi4gT25lIG1vcmUgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIHJldmlzaW9uOg0KDQotLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tDQpVc2UgYSBzcGVjaWZpYyBsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWdzIG9yIHNlcXVlbmNlcyBv ZiBzdWJ0YWdzIGluIHByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gc3VidGFncyBmb3IgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgY29sbGVjdGlv bnMuIEEgImxhbmd1YWdlIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24iIGlzIGEgc3VidGFnIHRoYXQgcmVwcmVzZW50cyBt dWx0aXBsZSByZWxhdGVkIGxhbmd1YWdlcy4gVGhlc2UgY29kZXMgY29tcHJpc2UgdGhlIHNldCBv ZiBbSVNPNjM54oCRNV0gY29kZXMsIGFuZCBtYW55IGFyZSBhbHNvIGluY2x1ZGVkIGluIElTTyA2 MzktMjsgYWxsIGFyZSBpbmNsdWRlZCBhcyBwcmltYXJ5IGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3MgaW4gdGhl IHJlZ2lzdHJ5LiBUaGUgJ1Njb3BlJyBmaWVsZCBmb3IgYSBjb2xsZWN0aW9uIHN1YnRhZyBoYXMg dGhlIHZhbHVlICdjb2xsZWN0aW9uJy4gLi4uDQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQoNCg0KSSdtIHNh dGlzZmllZCB3aXRoIHRoZSByZXNvbHV0aW9uIG9mIG90aGVyIGl0ZW1zIEkgcmFpc2VkIGluIHRo aXMgdGhyZWFkLg0KDQoNCg0KUGV0ZXINCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 00:25:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D4F3A6905; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:25:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DE53A6905 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:25:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.782 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.782 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.183, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ToEqPYMuQ2q for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E7F63A6898 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:25:21 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:25:21 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:25:16 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1.2: sgn-US Thread-Index: AcjhS/3bzK9+kCClT9GTWz9D9My4KgASJ2eg Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] 4.1.2: sgn-US X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [correcting reference to 4.1.2 -- subject was "4.1.1: sgn-US "] > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Peter Constable > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:43 PM The current draft has this wording in 4.1.2: ------------- For example, the grandfathered tag "sgn-US" used to mean 'American Sign Language' specifically, without reference to the United States. ------------- Presumably this grandfathered tag doesn't change its meaning any more than any other grandfathered tag; yet a change in meaning is suggested by the wording "used to mean". Suggested revision: ------------- For example, the grandfathered tag "sgn-US" was registered to represent 'American Sign Language' specifically, without reference to the United States. ------------- Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 00:46:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF233A6898; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:46:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26BA3A692E for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.777 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.777 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.178, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MLI9ApcD8+ty for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 084523A6863 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:47:07 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:47:07 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:47:01 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value Thread-Index: AcjhXqWE43Td2GzSSqWUQZ1hsNiqYQAH+/oQAAW6v3A= Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.5: canonicalization and subtags mapped to Preferred-Value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 9:58 PM > This section, as noted, is a mess. I've altered it significantly... A further problem I note is that the portion starting with "A language tag is in canonical form when..." is inconsistent: parts of it describe conditions satisfied by canonical form (as expected by that into sentence), and parts describe instead what changes to make to map a tag to a canonical equivalent. Something like the following seems like it might be better: --------------- A language tag is in canonical form when: 1. The tag is well-formed according the rules in Section 2.1 (Syntax) and Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation). 2. The tag is not a redundant or grandfathered tag that has a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry. 3. The tag does not contain language, script, region or variant subtags that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry. 4. Any extensions are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by singleton subtag. For a given tag, an equivalent tag in canonical form can be derived by applying the following changes: 1. Redundant or grandfathered tags that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry MUST be replaced with their mapped value. 2. Subtags of type 'extlang' SHOULD be mapped to their Preferred-Value. 3. Other subtags that have a Preferred-Value field in the IANA registry MUST be replaced with their mapped value. 4. If more than one extension subtag sequence exists, the extension sequences MUST be re-ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by singleton subtag. --------------- I've left out some of the substantive wording that is in the current draft (e.g. explaining the origin of the grandfathered and reduandant tags); if this suggestion is accepted in principle, you might want to figure out appropriate ways to work that content back in. There's another concern raised by the changes you made in that the canonical derivation for tags is vague wrt extlang. I suggest we leave that for a separate thread. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 01:10:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5409D3A6A17; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 01:10:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7123A6A17 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 01:10:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.773 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.773 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.174, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lxDNAsirR8Qk for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 01:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49553A6A0F for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 01:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 01:10:37 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 01:10:36 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Martin Hosken , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 01:10:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: Acjhkai9QsiKqZOUTdiAh7qgchv2OgACYt1g Message-ID: References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I'm sure we've discussed this at some point in the past... Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Martin Hosken > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 12:02 AM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > Dear All, > > I may have missed something in my reading but strong things are written > about extension authorities having to provide canonicalizations for > their subvariants, but I can find no canonicalization criteria for > registered variants. > > e.g. is it en-boont-fonipa, en-fonipa-boont, en-Latn-boont-fonipa, en- > Latn-fonipa-boont > > Yours, > Martin Hosken > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 03:09:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0011728C0E3; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 03:09:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26F93A6A23 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 03:09:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.661 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.661 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id etCaHvwsbiam for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 03:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBB63A6A30 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 03:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.23]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m69A98UC005449 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:09:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 7af3_11ce9f6e_4d9f_11dd_b588_001d0969ab06; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:09:08 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:59943) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:03:12 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080709185537.0812c978@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:58:15 +0900 To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64530@EX-SEA5-D.ant.a mazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64530@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-16 submitted... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hello Addison, others, Just in case you are not aware: There is an upcomming deadline for draft submissions next Monday, for details please see http://www.ietf.org/meetings/72/72-cutoff_dates.html. I don't think we will be able to have WG last call drafts out at that point, because Doug is currently not very well connected. But I suggest that Addison may want to burn integer 17 some time over the weekend, as convenient. Regards, Martin. At 14:59 08/07/09, Phillips, Addison wrote: >(editor hat on) > >I have just now submitted draft-16 in its current state. I show my backlog >of emails/etc needing response having at least 8 messages in it and I note >that Mark and Peter both have objections to text outstanding. However, I >will now start to burn integers (new drafts) more quickly in an effort to >keep the changes manageable. It will make discussion of changes easier too. > >The current documents are posted on Inter-Locale. My server log suggests we >are having a good time diffing versions. > > http://tinyurl.com/6jgaql hwdiff > http://tinyurl.com/58wm3s side-by-side > >Files live at: > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.html > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.txt > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.xml > >I will update inter-locale to have draft-17 as editor's copy in the morning. > >Best Regards, > >Addison (for the editors) > >Addison Phillips >Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 04:03:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C283A6A05; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 04:03:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669BE3A699F for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 04:03:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZF9ym2AZbcm8 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 04:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4343E3A67D8 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 04:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m69B3Zjp000751 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:03:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 245c_ace5c99e_4da6_11dd_9850_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:03:35 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:55580) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:57:39 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080709200232.09452010@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:03:06 +0900 To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080709185537.0812c978@localhost> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64530@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080709185537.0812c978@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-16 submitted... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org And sorry I forgot: Many thanks to the editors, in particular Addison, for this continuing great work! Martin. At 18:58 08/07/09, Martin Duerst wrote: >Hello Addison, others, > >Just in case you are not aware: There is an upcomming deadline >for draft submissions next Monday, for details please see >http://www.ietf.org/meetings/72/72-cutoff_dates.html. > >I don't think we will be able to have WG last call drafts >out at that point, because Doug is currently not very well >connected. But I suggest that Addison may want to burn integer >17 some time over the weekend, as convenient. > >Regards, Martin. > >At 14:59 08/07/09, Phillips, Addison wrote: >>(editor hat on) >> >>I have just now submitted draft-16 in its current state. I show my backlog >>of emails/etc needing response having at least 8 messages in it and I note >>that Mark and Peter both have objections to text outstanding. However, I >>will now start to burn integers (new drafts) more quickly in an effort to >>keep the changes manageable. It will make discussion of changes easier too. >> >>The current documents are posted on Inter-Locale. My server log suggests we >>are having a good time diffing versions. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/6jgaql hwdiff >> http://tinyurl.com/58wm3s side-by-side >> >>Files live at: >> >> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.html >> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.txt >> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-16.xml >> >>I will update inter-locale to have draft-17 as editor's copy in the morning. >> >>Best Regards, >> >>Addison (for the editors) >> >>Addison Phillips >>Globalization Architect -- Lab126 >> >>Internationalization is not a feature. >>It is an architecture. >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Ltru mailing list >>Ltru@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > >#-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University >#-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 07:33:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 239983A68E1; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:33:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656A03A6996 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:33:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xEBugS262Waq for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D023A68DB for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KGajy-0007pY-RL; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 10:33:55 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:33:54 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080709143354.GA13157@mercury.ccil.org> References: <5DBA6F588FA2476FA0041609D1F29DBB@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64517@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64517@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > Use a specific language subtags or sequences of subtags in preference Drop "a". > to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is > a subtag that represents multiple related languages. Metaphysical confusion here: a collection is not a subtag. "A language collection is a group of languages that descend from a common ancestor, are spoken in the same geographical area, or are otherwise related. Certain language collections are assigned codes by ISO 639-5." > These codes, > which comprise the set of codes, Drop this line. > are included as primary language subtags in the registry. The 'Scope' > field for a collection has the value 'collection'. Two illustrative > examples of collections as language subtags are "Chamic languages" Again, collections are not subtags. Read "collections with language subtags". > ('cmc') and "Germanic languages" ('gem'). Each of these collections > is also represented by subtags for the individual languages. Collections are not represented by subtags for individual languages. "Each of the languages in these collections are represented by primary language subtags." > In the > case of 'cmc', for example, the registry also contains the values > for each of the approximately ten individual languages represented > by this collective code. Collections don't represent languages, subtags represent languages. "In the case of the Chamic languages, for example, the registry contains not only 'cmc' but also subtags for each of the approximately ten separate Chamic languages." > Collections are interpreted inclusively, > so content tagged with "en" (English), "de" (German), or "gsw" > (Swiss German, Alemannic) could (but SHOULD NOT) be tagged with "gem" > (Germanic languages), which includes all of these > (and other) languages. Languages in a collection are often not mutually > intelligible "Often not" seems too weak: "almost never" is more like it. > and, while subtags derived from collection codes MAY be > used when more specific language information is not available, most > tag processes and users do not understand the relationship between > the collection and its encompassed languages. Thus, users ought not "Encompassed languages" is specific to macrolanguages. Say "the languages it contains" or just "its languages". > assume a subtag based on a language collection is a useful means for > selecting or identifying content in its encompassed languages. Same comment. > > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan C'est la` pourtant que se livre le sens du dire, de ce que, s'y conjuguant le nyania qui bruit des sexes en compagnie, il supplee a ce qu'entre eux, de rapport nyait pas. --Jacques Lacan, "L'Etourdit" _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 07:34:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CCA28C117; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:34:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0373A68E1 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:34:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ydgXSqhODnt for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398113A6AA2 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KGal1-0007uv-LG; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 10:34:59 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:34:59 -0400 To: Martin Hosken Message-ID: <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken scripsit: > I may have missed something in my reading but strong things are written > about extension authorities having to provide canonicalizations for > their subvariants, but I can find no canonicalization criteria for > registered variants. You are confusing variants with extensions. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders. --Hal Abelson _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 07:40:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C315C28C146; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:40:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B05B3A6AA2 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:40:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.810, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HzrTGJX2MZCM for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C35B3A68EE for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:40:38 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,331,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="84725171" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 14:40:47 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m69EekA9014607 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:40:47 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:40:31 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:40:07 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:40:28 -0700 Thread-Topic: Latn and fonipa Thread-Index: AcjhhVy3kWE/xqRnS6uKfDAL8IVHcgAAJIewAAFRrzAAEYyyQA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB646FB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > IMO, it would be entirely appropriate to say that IPA phonetic > transcription is always "in" the Latin script and to give 'fonipa' > a Prefix field of *-Latn-*. > That would have the effect of requiring the Latn subtag with 'fonipa', which I don't think is necessarily appropriate. What you really kind of mean is "fonipa has a Suppress-Script of *"... in the same way that a sign language subtag doesn't have much meaning with a script (sign writing aside). Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 07:48:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576D53A6950; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:48:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6968D3A6950 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:48:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.738 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.738 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.431, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AnN2g2m4XHSg for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org (smtp1.wsfo.org [208.145.81.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605003A67A8 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m69EmEWp007871 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:48:15 -0400 X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.75 (ClamAV engine v0.93) Received: from [118.172.88.165] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO sil-mh4) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPSA id 186973843 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 10:48:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:48:15 +0700 From: Martin Hosken Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 172.22.0.51 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear John, > > I may have missed something in my reading but strong things are written > > about extension authorities having to provide canonicalizations for > > their subvariants, but I can find no canonicalization criteria for > > registered variants. > > You are confusing variants with extensions. In what way? If we consider variants to be elements of an unmarked extension, then just as an extension must provide a canonical order for its elements, so should we for the variants. Otherwise what is the relative canonical order for two variants? Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 07:49:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01893A6950; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E48DF28C146 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.63 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.63 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.323, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8HnZJkcfQoRk for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org (smtp1.wsfo.org [208.145.81.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E88373A67A8 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m69Enavs008005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:49:36 -0400 X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.75 (ClamAV engine v0.93) Received: from [118.172.88.165] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO sil-mh4) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPSA id 186974024 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 10:49:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:49:41 +0700 From: Martin Hosken Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20080709214941.1e3fd46a@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB646FB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB646FB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 172.22.0.51 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Addison, > > > > IMO, it would be entirely appropriate to say that IPA phonetic > > transcription is always "in" the Latin script and to give 'fonipa' > > a Prefix field of *-Latn-*. > > > > That would have the effect of requiring the Latn subtag with 'fonipa', which I don't think is necessarily appropriate. What you really kind of mean is "fonipa has a Suppress-Script of *"... in the same way that a sign language subtag doesn't have much meaning with a script (sign writing aside). Not really. The 15924 JAC decided that IPA is a subset of Latn. So saying bru-Thai-fonipa is semantically meaningless. fonipa only makes sense in conjunction with Latn and therefore can imply it. Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 07:56:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4383A6A9B; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:56:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530FA3A6974 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.826 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.826 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.773, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PtSh542Tcv6w for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06A0F3A6987 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:56:29 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,331,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="84733930" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 14:56:25 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m69EuMW2019549; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:56:22 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:56:22 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Hosken Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:56:21 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa Thread-Index: Acjh0wZNu9CzpSUwR/WSanMiEqSpBwAABU6w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64722@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB646FB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709214941.1e3fd46a@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <20080709214941.1e3fd46a@sil-mh4> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > Not really. The 15924 JAC decided that IPA is a subset of Latn. So > saying bru-Thai-fonipa is semantically meaningless. fonipa only > makes sense in conjunction with Latn and therefore can imply it. > It doesn't necessarily make sense to REQUIRE a tag such as "en-Latn-fonipa", though. The 'Latn' subtag is superfluous and adds no additional semantic value. In fact, no language tag adds semantic value by including a script in the case of fonipa. For example, "zh-yue-Latn-HK-fonipa" is also unnecessarily long. There are other similar examples. 'baku1926' implies Latn too. 'monoton' implies 'Grek'. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 08:48:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0D328C17B; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:48:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BF828C17B for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:48:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.86 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.86 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.739, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fwo3XAP8Q+qv for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A75628C18D for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:48:57 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,332,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="84762141" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 15:49:06 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m69Fn5mG026508; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:49:05 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:49:05 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:49:04 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1.1 wording Thread-Index: AcjhSloai0ce2PX8QFGe9fv2XdscawAkH5eA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB647AA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1.1 wording X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) Starting on draft-17 with the backlog. "scope of its denotation" seems a little jargon laden. How about: -- Each Macrolanguage subtag's scope, by definition, includes all of its encompassed languages. -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:31 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 4.1.1 wording > > The current draft (working from what Addison just posted) has this > text in 4.1.1: > > ------------ > Each Macrolanguage's subtag, by definition, includes all of its > encompassed languages. > ------------ > > I hope I'm not being overly picky if I point out that subtags > include charcters (a-z, 0-9) but don't include languages. Suggested > revision: > > ------------ > For each Macrolanguage subtag, the scope of its denotation includes, > by definition, all of its encompassed languages. > ------------ > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 08:49:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6391E28C18A; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:49:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9079128C10F for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:49:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.270, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id guL1KxoCSB3C for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6CEF28C101 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:49:53 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,332,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="74179698" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 15:49:57 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m69FnvvU020718; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:49:57 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:49:57 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:49:56 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1.1: sgn-US Thread-Index: AcjhS/3bzK9+kCClT9GTWz9D9My4KgAj23Lw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB647AC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1.1: sgn-US X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) Done. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:43 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 4.1.1: sgn-US > > The current draft has this wording in 4.1.1: > > ------------- > For example, the grandfathered tag "sgn-US" used to mean 'American > Sign Language' specifically, without reference to the United States. > ------------- > > Presumably this grandfathered tag doesn't change its meaning any > more than any other grandfathered tag; yet a change in meaning is > suggested by the wording "used to mean". Suggested revision: > > > ------------- > For example, the grandfathered tag "sgn-US" was registered to > represent 'American Sign Language' specifically, without reference > to the United States. > ------------- > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 08:52:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0FF28C19C; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:52:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B13628C19C for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:52:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.891 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.292, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rRwhzKim6MFB for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB37D28C18F for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:52:01 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,332,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7586787" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 15:52:02 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m69Fq18j007629 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:52:01 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:52:00 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:51:37 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:51:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.2: text in two scripts identical (?) Thread-Index: AcjhTX0RUEubtsNoQJySnQxK74Ct4wAjjiZw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB647B3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.2: text in two scripts identical (?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) Done. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:54 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 4.2: text in two scripts identical (?) > > The current draft has this text in Section 4.2: > > ------------- > For example, the tag "az" shares a prefix with both "az-Latn" > (Azerbaijani written using the Latin script) and "az-Cyrl" > (Azerbaijani written using the Cyrillic script). A person fluent in > one script might not be able to read the other, even though the > text might be identical. > ------------- > > The way I read that, it says that two portions of text content that > are in different scripts can somehow be identical -- for me that's > impossible (they'd have to have identical character sequences). > Suggested revision: > > ------------- > For example, the tag "az" shares a prefix with both "az-Latn" > (Azerbaijani written using the Latin script) and "az-Cyrl" > (Azerbaijani written using the Cyrillic script). A person fluent in > one script might not be able to read the other, even though the > linguistic content (e.g., what would be heard if both texts were > read aloud) might be identical. > ------------- > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 08:55:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67893A69F3; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:55:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3FC23A68DB for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:55:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.769 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.769 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.170, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ZH6JjHDuu3W for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1557A3A69F3 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:55:17 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:55:16 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Martin Hosken , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:55:15 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: Acjh0tYQMvmfMvOpSqKkvdVZLnQZiAAB9b7w Message-ID: References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Martin Hosken > > You are confusing variants with extensions. > > In what way? If we consider variants to be elements of an unmarked > extension Waffling with terminology doesn't necessarily help get people on the same page. The key point you want to raise is whether a canonical order for variants should be defined. Variants are not extensions, so nothing is necessarily entailed. The key question, I think, is to ask what canonicalization is for. I think you're wondering about a canonical order for variants because you're thinking about tag comparison: e.g. is aa-variant1-variant2 "the same" as aa-variant2-variant1 or not -- or should they be considered a match or not. If that's all that canonicalization were about, I think it would be covered in 4647, not 4646(bis). Rather, I think the intent of canonicalization in 4646(bis) is to direct users toward preferred, best-practice tags. If we could assume that variant subtags do not semantically interact, then we could define a normalization process for purposes of matching, such as putting them in alphabetical order. But that would be distinct from specifying a preferred order that should be used. Given the way some matching algorithms work, the order of variants can impact behaviours, even if not declared semantics. And given that tags with multiple variant subtags are probably not going to be all that likely, I'm not inclined to adding new machinery into 4646bis at this time -- let's not get into too much feature creep. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 08:56:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43FEC28C196; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:56:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049BD28C196 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:56:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 74PgPHS7PNty for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181F928C163 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KGc1c-0008SH-Vj; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:56:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:56:12 -0400 To: Martin Hosken Message-ID: <20080709155612.GD13157@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Hosken scripsit: > > You are confusing variants with extensions. > > In what way? If we consider variants to be elements of an unmarked > extension If. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconic_phrase .) -- Well, I have news for our current leaders John Cowan and the leaders of tomorrow: the Bill of cowan@ccil.org Rights is not a frivolous luxury, in force http://www.ccil.org/~cowan only during times of peace and prosperity. We don't just push it to the side when the going gets tough. --Molly Ivins _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 10:42:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F9C28C20E; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:42:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B959F28C21B for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:42:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.765 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.765 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.166, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pXy0ZZGrlTeR for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F9628C20E for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:42:17 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:42:17 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:42:16 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1.1 wording Thread-Index: AcjhSloai0ce2PX8QFGe9fv2XdscawAkH5eAAAQP/nA= Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB647AA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB647AA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1.1 wording X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org That works for me. Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 8:49 AM > To: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: 4.1.1 wording > > (editor hat) > > Starting on draft-17 with the backlog. > > "scope of its denotation" seems a little jargon laden. How about: > > -- > Each Macrolanguage subtag's scope, by definition, includes all of its > encompassed languages. > -- > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Peter Constable > > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:31 PM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: [Ltru] 4.1.1 wording > > > > The current draft (working from what Addison just posted) has this > > text in 4.1.1: > > > > ------------ > > Each Macrolanguage's subtag, by definition, includes all of its > > encompassed languages. > > ------------ > > > > I hope I'm not being overly picky if I point out that subtags > > include charcters (a-z, 0-9) but don't include languages. Suggested > > revision: > > > > ------------ > > For each Macrolanguage subtag, the scope of its denotation includes, > > by definition, all of its encompassed languages. > > ------------ > > > > > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 11:36:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F65B3A6A88; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:36:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03EC28C19D for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:36:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.476 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.476 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lj5kL+QwTRMJ for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792893A680C for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m36so900672rnd.18 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:36:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=GsWpbKgOliJiKszzycHzO9b8SFaT7BSbaY1m2i7PCDg=; b=V0XnO8E6/oa97S1rdG62thDDlGhh396tBjzdGrsJZqS+4k/UzlVGuPqfMavqx80tQL p4MxP0+0R2y2Tt0gA1RH4d+kPKGN6kQbgc16QBGLAUWiaRUOMm1TOj6Kccsy80cuge9z qnfmIQUo7bA76Z5GMY9NLXJVmJRUWgWXV34fg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=dm91CdZctLkmuPFQjZF97JHO+bQGVjABGZsMjKs//4z7egcJbZprsaMFPcjotxuz9S 82rXA+6YJhoNVYdADDhC8ylpOGkoeXUxM1X6Ig0edgX9WXsoDKNuY6VcJs6eklJcckD8 LXVjZMV5p84Y690VkfJO77uBrHB9cqhvvGN7M= Received: by 10.150.83.22 with SMTP id g22mr12888333ybb.134.1215628601928; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:36:41 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 74ec630fc40d318c Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1766051677==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1766051677== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8798_24710113.1215628601975" ------=_Part_8798_24710113.1215628601975 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think Martin has something here. The overriding goal of canonicalization *is* comparison: that if any two tags are known to have the same semantics, then they will have the same canonical form. Otherwise there is little purpose to it. I was going to speak up about this earlier: if we want to state that xx-yyy and yyy have the same semantics, then they have to have the same canonical form. I think what you are talking about is something different: "preferred forms". For that, one could have multiple options, but then different tags could have the same semantics. What I would prefer is that the canonical form of variants be as alphabetical as possible: 1. alphabetize the variants 2. order the variants for prefixes by iterating as follows: - if the variant V is valid (given the earlier subtags at that point) then proceed to the next variant (or exit if done) - otherwise find the first subsequent prefix P that would make P valid, move it to be immediately in front of V, and loop (so we'll reconsider P) (multiple variants are rare, so this should be rarely invoked) Mark On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Peter Constable wrote: > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > Martin Hosken > > > > You are confusing variants with extensions. > > > > In what way? If we consider variants to be elements of an unmarked > > extension > > Waffling with terminology doesn't necessarily help get people on the same > page. The key point you want to raise is whether a canonical order for > variants should be defined. Variants are not extensions, so nothing is > necessarily entailed. > > The key question, I think, is to ask what canonicalization is for. I think > you're wondering about a canonical order for variants because you're > thinking about tag comparison: e.g. is aa-variant1-variant2 "the same" as > aa-variant2-variant1 or not -- or should they be considered a match or not. > > If that's all that canonicalization were about, I think it would be covered > in 4647, not 4646(bis). Rather, I think the intent of canonicalization in > 4646(bis) is to direct users toward preferred, best-practice tags. > > If we could assume that variant subtags do not semantically interact, then > we could define a normalization process for purposes of matching, such as > putting them in alphabetical order. But that would be distinct from > specifying a preferred order that should be used. > > Given the way some matching algorithms work, the order of variants can > impact behaviours, even if not declared semantics. And given that tags with > multiple variant subtags are probably not going to be all that likely, I'm > not inclined to adding new machinery into 4646bis at this time -- let's not > get into too much feature creep. > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_8798_24710113.1215628601975 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think Martin has something here. The overriding goal of canonicalization *is* comparison: that if any two tags are known to have the same semantics, then they will have the same canonical form. Otherwise there is little purpose to it. I was going to speak up about this earlier: if we want to state that xx-yyy and yyy have the same semantics, then they have to have the same canonical form.

I think what you are talking about is something different: "preferred forms". For that, one could have multiple options, but then different tags could have the same semantics.

What I would prefer is that the canonical form of variants be as alphabetical as possible:
  1. alphabetize the variants
  2. order the variants for prefixes by iterating as follows:
    • if the variant V is valid (given the earlier subtags at that point) then proceed to the next variant (or exit if done)
    • otherwise find the first subsequent prefix P that would make P valid, move it to be immediately in front of V, and loop (so we'll reconsider P)
(multiple variants are rare, so this should be rarely invoked)
Mark

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Martin Hosken

> > You are confusing variants with extensions.
>
> In what way? If we consider variants to be elements of an unmarked
> extension

Waffling with terminology doesn't necessarily help get people on the same page. The key point you want to raise is whether a canonical order for variants should be defined. Variants are not extensions, so nothing is necessarily entailed.

The key question, I think, is to ask what canonicalization is for. I think you're wondering about a canonical order for variants because you're thinking about tag comparison: e.g. is aa-variant1-variant2 "the same" as aa-variant2-variant1 or not -- or should they be considered a match or not.

If that's all that canonicalization were about, I think it would be covered in 4647, not 4646(bis). Rather, I think the intent of canonicalization in 4646(bis) is to direct users toward preferred, best-practice tags.

If we could assume that variant subtags do not semantically interact, then we could define a normalization process for purposes of matching, such as putting them in alphabetical order. But that would be distinct from specifying a preferred order that should be used.

Given the way some matching algorithms work, the order of variants can impact behaviours, even if not declared semantics. And given that tags with multiple variant subtags are probably not going to be all that likely, I'm not inclined to adding new machinery into 4646bis at this time -- let's not get into too much feature creep.


Peter
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_8798_24710113.1215628601975-- --===============1766051677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1766051677==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 12:05:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC21A3A6AB8; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:05:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2E73A67BD for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:05:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RYn29dDF0AXz for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB6F3A6955 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KGeyj-0003qv-N7; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:05:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:05:25 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > What I would prefer is that the canonical form of variants be as > alphabetical as possible: > > 1. alphabetize the variants That assumes more than we know. The order of variants may or may not be meaningful. -- It was impossible to inveigle John Cowan Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Into offering the slightest apology For his Phenomenology. --W. H. Auden, from "People" (1953) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 13:06:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E220E3A6AF4; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:06:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836573A6B1B for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:06:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8uLf7YT-MqQF for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from el-out-1112.google.com (el-out-1112.google.com [209.85.162.180]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 880B43A68EA for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so531570ele.13 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:06:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=U4l+Fqdcvd0UOnQmMHCLIjIBYIUjSRAssXISmx9k9Yc=; b=BJAD2op9cpFWeKJWooHaIC2nxRtIN9HTKslimWhJKhYcp1nXxPrSd5FUWDimqhINA4 wUaXqRV3fUi9ZCSVaG1Jasg8n2UFIJDDZU+k5nzwNyQtOXfXqFIDDahCccYf9FRPC3Rk r9BPbQ69n7c2jOp+nau7ku/pVbt6I0DiGvvxU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=OG1ZYyUd5G7kyCP45aBshq83kT6/+9bUlqbQ535+4JFngjK3gThw9JSU1fjVWJfWsE 75BcJDmqJQ+sA3uk0PBi0eFy4JjItuaUfPZmw2a2LoeUk9VGW7yVc9AaUpLOw7jtizL4 DejAXMqAn3tnMAdyLHwqtWonkXCNnE43SieLk= Received: by 10.151.150.13 with SMTP id c13mr13021925ybo.155.1215633992047; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:06:31 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1e48bd1361c33935 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0181859597==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0181859597== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10120_28981392.1215633991937" ------=_Part_10120_28981392.1215633991937 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You make a good point. It is a reasonable position to say that the order is meaningful, and that thus canonicalization cannot disturb the order. But we're the ones who define what the variants mean. If the order *is* meaningful, we have to say so clearly in the spec, and say what difference the ordering is supposed to make. Otherwise someone could easily assume that the ordering is not meaningful (except for prefixing). So Mark On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 12:05 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > What I would prefer is that the canonical form of variants be as > > alphabetical as possible: > > > > 1. alphabetize the variants > > That assumes more than we know. The order of variants may or may not > be meaningful. > > -- > It was impossible to inveigle John Cowan > Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Into offering the slightest apology > For his Phenomenology. --W. H. Auden, from "People" > (1953) > ------=_Part_10120_28981392.1215633991937 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You make a good point. It is a reasonable position to say that the order is meaningful, and that thus canonicalization cannot disturb the order. But we're the ones who define what the variants mean. If the order *is* meaningful, we have to say so clearly in the spec, and say what difference the ordering is supposed to make.

Otherwise someone could easily assume that the ordering is not meaningful (except for prefixing).

So

Mark

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 12:05 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> What I would prefer is that the canonical form of variants be as
> alphabetical as possible:
>
>    1. alphabetize the variants

That assumes more than we know.  The order of variants may or may not
be meaningful.

--
It was impossible to inveigle           John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Into offering the slightest apology
For his Phenomenology.                      --W. H. Auden, from "People" (1953)

------=_Part_10120_28981392.1215633991937-- --===============0181859597== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0181859597==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 13:13:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E053A6934; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:13:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5173A6934 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:13:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.838 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.838 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from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:14:00 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , John Cowan Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:13:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: Acjh/02nsqVvG+p/TEy2my7wh/N0uAAABpoA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 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--===============0135704567==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 13:47:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCB43A6B66; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:47:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C4453A6B4A for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:47:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id in3S5C-Y-w5w for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38B73A6B74 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KGgZr-0006S1-Ex; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:47:51 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:47:51 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080709204751.GF4132@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24gc2NyaXBzaXQ6Cgo+IElmIGEgdmFyaWFudCAoc3VjaCBhcyDigJhl eGFtcGxl4oCZIGFib3ZlKSBoYXMgYW5vdGhlciB2YXJpYW50IGFzIGl0cwo+IHByZWZpeCwgdGhl biB0aGUgdmFyaWFudCB0aGF0IGluY2x1ZGVzIHRoZSBvdGhlciBhcyBhIHByZWZpeCBTSE9VTEQK PiBhcHBlYXIgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIG90aGVyIHZhcmlhbnQgd2hlbiB0aGV5IGFyZSB1c2VkIHRvZ2V0 aGVyIHRvIGVuc3VyZQo+IGNvbnNpc3RlbnQgbWF0Y2hpbmcuIFNvbWUgdmFyaWFudHMgKHN1Y2gg YXMg4oCYZm9uaXBh4oCZKSBkbyBub3QgaW5jbHVkZQo+IGFueSBQcmVmaXg6IHRoZXNlIHN1YnRh Z3MgTUFZIGJlIHVzZWQgd2l0aCBhbnkgcHJlY2VkaW5nIHNlcXVlbmNlCj4gb2Ygc3VidGFncywg aW5jbHVkaW5nIG90aGVyIHZhcmlhbnRzLiBUeXBpY2FsbHkgdGhlc2Ug4oCcZ2VuZXJhbAo+IHB1 cnBvc2XigJ0gdmFyaWFudHMgU0hPVUxEIGFwcGVhciBbYmVmb3JlfGFmdGVyXSBhbnkgdmFyaWFu dHMgdGhhdAo+IGluY2x1ZGUgYSBQcmVmaXguCgorMQoKLS0gCkNhc2ggcmVnaXN0ZXJzIGRvbid0 IHJlYWxseSBhZGQgYW5kIHN1YnRyYWN0OyAgICAgICAgICAgSm9obiBDb3dhbgogICAgICAgIHRo ZXkgb25seSBncmluZCB0aGVpciBnZWFycy4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIGNvd2FuQGNjaWwu b3JnCkJ1dCB0aGVuIHRoZXkgZG9uJ3QgcmVhbGx5IGdyaW5kIHRoZWlyIGdlYXJzLCBlaXRoZXI7 ICAgCiAgICAgICAgdGhleSBvbmx5IG9iZXkgdGhlIGxhd3Mgb2YgcGh5c2ljcy4gIC0tVW5rbm93 bgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 13:50:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E57C3A6B66; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:50:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD89A3A6B5B for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:50:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hchKYfcjDca9 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from el-out-1112.google.com (el-out-1112.google.com [209.85.162.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5013D3A693C for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so541007ele.13 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:50:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=5liwhD1hf5fNVl4B9eHyP5XuvXZwiVd4ML904aocxBM=; b=DrOuVhW2wag5F42ziTl22XYHLgFsmZ8N5RTWwEJ09tQbnOK8kS9zP1lV+HgNcDAvvf LnUmV6fsJN7x3ghJO1Wuyr7M7PdA8VftuRYRiU1Z7anizRZRvdoI0a2g6rn//VbbRh4p OFMHHrPAVArk6WrEgCgn6wX9UFAzbQ3w9Fj7c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=kjhAv7mihCHJ6NdT0dPSnThdUXwhfCm8WC/TBroPqrvr7lYBBlIVCmGF8DVCSRYWWc A3MSq97nZc4ySbD4ywAQkqpfNtXN+pO5VlufLMfiSatDtFyNYTDJoqsyr7Xcp7eAug4g nhihpaGzdqZTcPR1Ii4pNbBmEFs5YkUKvxH70= Received: by 10.150.196.20 with SMTP id t20mr13089021ybf.99.1215636624898; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:50:24 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 555587ffe013d176 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1169740754==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1169740754== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10637_21372012.1215636624897" ------=_Part_10637_21372012.1215636624897 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We can only say SHOULD for a reordering of variants that reordering does not make a semantic difference. And if the reordering *doesn't* make a semantic difference, then that needs to be a MUST in the canonicalization. So with the existing text in 2.5, and your new text, we would need to add something like the following to what you MUST do in canonicalization. But unless there is some demonstrable semantic that we want to attach to the ordering of variants, we should also alphabetize. So here would be suggested text: 1. Separate the variant tags into two lists those requiring prefixes and those not. Alphabetize each list (case-insensitive ASCII order). Put all of the subtags that don't need prefixes first, and those not needing prefixes second. 2. Iterate through the variant subtags, and if any subtag needs a prefix and doesn't have one, look through the remaining variants to see if such a prefix is there. If so, move that prefix to just before the subtag. (Because cycles are not allowed, this will terminate.) Example: - sl-lipaw-fonipa-rozaj-1996 // This is for illustration: 1996 should have a prefix of de - => sl-fonipa-1996-lipaw-rozaj // applying #1 to {fonipa}, {1996, lipaw, rozaj} - => sl-fonipa-1996-rozaj-lipaw // applying #2 to lipaw Mark On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > The order is meaningful to several matching schemes (else we would have > put script at the end). However, I don't think we can definitively say what > the meaning of the order is, as it will vary by variant. We stop short of > saying this in Section 2.2.5, where we say: > > > > -- > > A variant that can meaningfully be used in combination with another variant > SHOULD include a 'Prefix' field in its registry record that lists that other > variant. For example, if another German variant 'example' were created that > made sense to use with '1996', then 'example' should include two Prefix > fields: "de" and "de-1996". > > -- > > > > To this we could add: > > > > -- > > If a variant (such as 'example' above) has another variant as its prefix, > then the variant that includes the other as a prefix SHOULD appear after the > other variant when they are used together to ensure consistent matching. > Some variants (such as 'fonipa') do not include any Prefix: these subtags > MAY be used with any preceding sequence of subtags, including other > variants. Typically these "general purpose" variants SHOULD appear > [before|after] any variants that include a Prefix. > > -- > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:07 PM > *To:* John Cowan > *Cc:* ltru@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > > > You make a good point. It is a reasonable position to say that the order is > meaningful, and that thus canonicalization cannot disturb the order. But > we're the ones who define what the variants mean. If the order *is* > meaningful, we have to say so clearly in the spec, and say what difference > the ordering is supposed to make. > > Otherwise someone could easily assume that the ordering is not meaningful > (except for prefixing). > > So > > Mark > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 12:05 PM, John Cowan wrote: > > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > > What I would prefer is that the canonical form of variants be as > > alphabetical as possible: > > > > > 1. alphabetize the variants > > That assumes more than we know. The order of variants may or may not > be meaningful. > > -- > It was impossible to inveigle John Cowan > Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Into offering the slightest apology > For his Phenomenology. --W. H. Auden, from "People" > (1953) > > > ------=_Part_10637_21372012.1215636624897 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We can only say SHOULD for a reordering of variants that reordering does not make a semantic difference. And if the reordering doesn't make a semantic difference, then that needs to be a MUST in the canonicalization.

So with the existing text in 2.5, and your new text, we would need to add something like the following to what you MUST do in canonicalization. But unless there is some demonstrable semantic that we want to attach to the ordering of variants, we should also alphabetize. So here would be suggested text:
  1. Separate the variant tags into two lists those requiring prefixes and those not. Alphabetize each list (case-insensitive ASCII order). Put all of the subtags that don't need prefixes first, and those not needing prefixes second.
  2. Iterate through the variant subtags, and if any subtag needs a prefix and doesn't have one, look through the remaining variants to see if such a prefix is there. If so, move that prefix to just before the subtag. (Because cycles are not allowed, this will terminate.)
Example:
  • sl-lipaw-fonipa-rozaj-1996 // This is for illustration: 1996 should have a prefix of de
  • => sl-fonipa-1996-lipaw-rozaj // applying #1 to {fonipa}, {1996, lipaw, rozaj}
  • => sl-fonipa-1996-rozaj-lipaw // applying #2 to lipaw

Mark

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

The order is meaningful to several matching schemes (else we would have put script at the end). However, I don't think we can definitively say what the meaning of the order is, as it will vary by variant. We stop short of saying this in Section 2.2.5, where we say:

 

--

A variant that can meaningfully be used in combination with another variant SHOULD include a 'Prefix' field in its registry record that lists that other variant. For example, if another German variant 'example' were created that made sense to use with '1996', then 'example' should include two Prefix fields: "de" and "de-1996".

--

 

To this we could add:

 

--

If a variant (such as 'example' above) has another variant as its prefix, then the variant that includes the other as a prefix SHOULD appear after the other variant when they are used together to ensure consistent matching. Some variants (such as 'fonipa') do not include any Prefix: these subtags MAY be used with any preceding sequence of subtags, including other variants. Typically these "general purpose" variants SHOULD appear [before|after] any variants that include a Prefix.

--

 

Addison Phillips

Globalization Architect -- Lab126

 

Internationalization is not a feature.

It is an architecture.

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:07 PM
To: John Cowan
Cc: ltru@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants

 

You make a good point. It is a reasonable position to say that the order is meaningful, and that thus canonicalization cannot disturb the order. But we're the ones who define what the variants mean. If the order *is* meaningful, we have to say so clearly in the spec, and say what difference the ordering is supposed to make.

Otherwise someone could easily assume that the ordering is not meaningful (except for prefixing).

So

Mark

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 12:05 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

Mark Davis scripsit:


> What I would prefer is that the canonical form of variants be as
> alphabetical as possible:
>

>    1. alphabetize the variants

That assumes more than we know.  The order of variants may or may not
be meaningful.

--
It was impossible to inveigle           John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Into offering the slightest apology
For his Phenomenology.                      --W. H. Auden, from "People" (1953)

 


------=_Part_10637_21372012.1215636624897-- --===============1169740754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1169740754==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 14:06:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD55228C1B8; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:06:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC2828C1B8 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:06:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fFJhRR8MTqwh for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B7B3A68EA for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KGgrl-0000TT-CG; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:06:21 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 17:06:21 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > We can only say SHOULD for a reordering of variants that reordering does not > make a semantic difference. And if the reordering *doesn't* make a semantic > difference, then that needs to be a MUST in the canonicalization. It would be a Good Thing if we could canonicalize away all syntactic differences that make no semantic difference, but [insert CGJ here] it doesn't work out. In this case, we simply can't say, considering an arbitrary number of variants, whether or not two given variants aaaaa and bbbbb interact semantically such that foo-aaaaa-bbbbb means something different from foo-bbbbb-aaaaa. -- When I'm stuck in something boring John Cowan where reading would be impossible or (who loves Asimov too) rude, I often set up math problems for cowan@ccil.org myself and solve them as a way to pass http://www.ccil.org/~cowan the time. --John Jenkins _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 14:29:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB7528C311; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:29:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907F228C311 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:29:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.868 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.868 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.731, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iT-3C+VlZyQR for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9561028C30E for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,333,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="84954649" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 21:29:22 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m69LTLXt005199; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:29:21 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:29:21 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Mark Davis Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:29:19 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjiB7ChoQdmKIC6Sf6sBQyvme3gHgAAnnOg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64DF0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Especially so since both 'bbbbb' and 'aaaaa' tend to be modifying 'foo', not each other. For example, 'fonipa' and 'boont' have different effects on subtag 'en'. (you can s/boont/Scotland/ or s/boont/scouse/ if you prefer). Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 2:06 PM > To: Mark Davis > Cc: Phillips, Addison; John Cowan; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > We can only say SHOULD for a reordering of variants that > reordering does not > > make a semantic difference. And if the reordering *doesn't* make > a semantic > > difference, then that needs to be a MUST in the canonicalization. > > It would be a Good Thing if we could canonicalize away all > syntactic > differences that make no semantic difference, but [insert CGJ here] > it > doesn't work out. In this case, we simply can't say, considering > an > arbitrary number of variants, whether or not two given variants > aaaaa and bbbbb interact semantically such that foo-aaaaa-bbbbb > means > something different from foo-bbbbb-aaaaa. > > -- > When I'm stuck in something boring John Cowan > where reading would be impossible or (who loves Asimov > too) > rude, I often set up math problems for cowan@ccil.org > myself and solve them as a way to pass > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > the time. --John Jenkins _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 15:16:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A6763A6A86; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:16:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24D33A6A86 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:16:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.297, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nPSLfqMILQlX for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171CF3A6826 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:16:35 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,333,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="7793542" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 22:16:40 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m69MGbcH001213; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:16:37 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:16:38 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:16:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjhWOWWISY6j0a8TL2r5sz2v2PCEAAthVBA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64ECD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807081334g1335e73dmc48d694fc9d7876b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081715i61188093tc03ccb0d2b7f5824@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807081715i61188093tc03ccb0d2b7f5824@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1537903515==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1537903515== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64ECDEXSEA5Dantama_" --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64ECDEXSEA5Dantama_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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--===============1537903515== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1537903515==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 15:18:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B483A6826; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:18:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96ACC3A6826 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:18:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0AFXfx855Syt for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF073A679F for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so821956yxg.49 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:18:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=3SaTYbjxVHLifovMl1Nel8UOqg3CONeGVtmt5MJ66fw=; b=pfWsiEifcxkmJxF3z/amU9F4rW8RZ5Ei3VwRv2wX5QpQrjL8Wvs6RgRG/IlwKxR44+ LhJtfozUGhHcd954kIK4CfDhEqT7/GgNE4yMEkHV/7I48/VSykw9UhiN6dOHKWBHSe4a yESA7ECuyujr8KHozf598x//a7EFCULcUmg9k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=oWxlEeXj1/Clhtckpp/moG82klJBd/TDvIu15iPBxaSGGYuJjF3vFTNGDCnNkZO07V FQrvE6NevwM5KsdcBDP+toMlGBmE0+76r/IgmXVTopr7T5wJPNwQ4E3GtNW0ZcsXamY8 Ndr5Q3yikqoPLnSXrAM6HD1rD4q/kEcRd+idU= Received: by 10.150.192.7 with SMTP id p7mr13217138ybf.91.1215641924177; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:18:44 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 73600c4ff78aaee5 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1069250948==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1069250948== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11206_3302020.1215641924180" ------=_Part_11206_3302020.1215641924180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline As I said, we are the ones who are determining the meaning of these things. If the meaning of xx-fonipa-boont is different than the meaning of xx-boont-fonipa, then it is up to us to say what the difference is. If you can state what the difference is, then we should put that in the spec, and canonicalization should not reorder. Mark On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 2:06 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > We can only say SHOULD for a reordering of variants that reordering does > not > > make a semantic difference. And if the reordering *doesn't* make a > semantic > > difference, then that needs to be a MUST in the canonicalization. > > It would be a Good Thing if we could canonicalize away all syntactic > differences that make no semantic difference, but [insert CGJ here] it > doesn't work out. In this case, we simply can't say, considering an > arbitrary number of variants, whether or not two given variants > aaaaa and bbbbb interact semantically such that foo-aaaaa-bbbbb means > something different from foo-bbbbb-aaaaa. > > -- > When I'm stuck in something boring John Cowan > where reading would be impossible or (who loves Asimov too) > rude, I often set up math problems for cowan@ccil.org > myself and solve them as a way to pass http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > the time. --John Jenkins > ------=_Part_11206_3302020.1215641924180 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline As I said, we are the ones who are determining the meaning of these things. If the meaning of xx-fonipa-boont is different than the meaning of xx-boont-fonipa, then it is up to us to say what the difference is. If you can state what the difference is, then we should put that in the spec, and canonicalization should not reorder.

Mark

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 2:06 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> We can only say SHOULD for a reordering of variants that reordering does not
> make a semantic difference. And if the reordering *doesn't* make a semantic
> difference, then that needs to be a MUST in the canonicalization.

It would be a Good Thing if we could canonicalize away all syntactic
differences that make no semantic difference, but [insert CGJ here] it
doesn't work out.  In this case, we simply can't say, considering an
arbitrary number of variants, whether or not two given variants
aaaaa and bbbbb interact semantically such that foo-aaaaa-bbbbb means
something different from foo-bbbbb-aaaaa.

--
When I'm stuck in something boring              John Cowan
where reading would be impossible or            (who loves Asimov too)
rude, I often set up math problems for          cowan@ccil.org
myself and solve them as a way to pass          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
the time.      --John Jenkins

------=_Part_11206_3302020.1215641924180-- --===============1069250948== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1069250948==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 15:21:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1259A3A67AF; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:21:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E57B3A67AF for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:21:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.176 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.176 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MUqNFms6JMUU for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1453A679F for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so822427yxg.49 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:21:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=lZ3QyJyXFy555JOxj/UZlCSMUzabKrOgeTOAT/MgXI8=; b=H7QcXGxL/RuUReciI1z96SlwaVIT0QzVXCO68OnLh6NudV8HWrF+y2/5QZwx5zC/wu PXg29AvETEvyxDHU2xesWIlWgUe9Xeh3TD+0aNJn9zqASO7Ow7inGGqAtCAeV9uBvhDq TphjsPhavGJDNLMLon/fWJQKAQB5BFInJef1U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=CytQWYZ1Z77VbLcKa0EFGOdPCw2uNfI/I0XJLN437rEP/YGQ6Yr+3rEUvqlZbk3PM9 IwbUeYZbW1oIyAMVcPglcRF1+GMeW0kIOlt3gPvRjCGuiEx9IAcjv2PbBTRk4dJ28ev/ EhnfRN3iTEWFTwFp7RxhNNfUFIv2gr3qq5my8= Received: by 10.150.202.3 with SMTP id z3mr13181419ybf.224.1215642106220; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807091521o6f9f4ba6ta32a7500971f4ce4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:21:46 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64ECD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807081334g1335e73dmc48d694fc9d7876b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081715i61188093tc03ccb0d2b7f5824@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64ECD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2547b040f1a1279e Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1367037147==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1367037147== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11240_29885068.1215642106186" ------=_Part_11240_29885068.1215642106186 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1367037147==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 15:31:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0693A6860; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:31:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C5D3A6860 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:31:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aoplEi1rTnEH for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77023A67FE for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KGiCi-0001oP-Gb; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:32:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:32:04 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080709223204.GA23385@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > As I said, we are the ones who are determining the meaning of these things. > If the meaning of xx-fonipa-boont is different than the meaning of > xx-boont-fonipa, then it is up to us to say what the difference is. If you > can state what the difference is, then we should put that in the spec, and > canonicalization should not reorder. Those are two different we's: it is ietf-languages who determines the meaning of variant subtags, but LTRU that determines the canonicalization rules. LTRU is temporary, but ietf-languages is permanent, and it is not reasonable for LTRU to make a rule in this respect that binds ietf-languages into the indefinite future. Furthermore, using the Prefix field means that if bbbbb is to be ordered after aaaaa, it cannot be used without aaaaa (or some alternative prefix). That may well be too much information for a particular language tag. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan "The exception proves the rule." Dimbulbs think: "Your counterexample proves my theory." Latin students think "'Probat' means 'tests': the exception puts the rule to the proof." But legal historians know it means "Evidence for an exception is evidence of the existence of a rule in cases not excepted from." _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 15:44:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 556193A67B0; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:44:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102213A67B0 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LYBHp73NKa1v for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6653A679F for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:44:31 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,333,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7805869" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2008 22:44:38 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m69Mi7Vr031201 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:44:38 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:44:27 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Mark Davis Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:44:26 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjiE6MIejkrMQwrTNW/a9q251p6BgAANs/Q Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64F1D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <20080709223204.GA23385@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080709223204.GA23385@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > Furthermore, using the Prefix field means that if bbbbb is to be > ordered after aaaaa, it cannot be used without aaaaa (or some > alternative prefix). It can, with "some alternative prefix" as you put it. In fact, we already have examples of this and text saying that this is the case. See, for example: %% Type: variant Subtag: 1994 Description: Standardized Resian orthography Added: 2007-07-28 Prefix: sl-rozaj Prefix: sl-rozaj-biske Prefix: sl-rozaj-njiva Prefix: sl-rozaj-osojs Prefix: sl-rozaj-solba Comments: For standardized Resian an orthography was published in 1994. 1994 is ordered after 'biske', 'njiva', 'osojs', and 'solba'. Note that it is not recommended with 'lipaw' (which shares the sl-rozaj prefix). In cases where all of the variants have prefixes, one can determine the canonical order (provided one does not use prefixes that are mutually exclusive together). What we don't say is where "no-prefix" variants go. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 18:55:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83533A686D; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:55:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06F33A694A for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:55:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.472 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.472 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.126, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fuu5rU1lw6N0 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D039E3A686D for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2121 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2008 01:55:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.35) with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2008 01:55:26 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:55:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IDx0PlRoZSBmaXJzdCAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIGZpZWxkIGFzc2lnbmVkIHRvIHJlY29yZCBvZiBh bnkgc3BlY2lmaWMgCj4gdHlwZSAoJ2xhbmd1YWdlJywgJ2V4dGxhbmcnLCAnc2NyaXB0JywgYW5k IHNvIG9uKSAgTVVTVCBiZSB1bmlxdWUgCj4gd2l0aGluIHRoYXQgZ2l2ZW4gcmVjb3JkIHR5cGUg c28gdGhhdCB1c2VycyBkbyBub3QgYmVjb21lIGNvbmZ1c2VkIAo+IGFib3V0IHdoaWNoIHN1YnRh ZyB0byB1c2UuIFRoZSBMYW5ndWFnZSBTdWJ0YWcgUmV2aWV3ZXIgTVVTVCBlZGl0IGFueSAKPiBw cm9wb3NlZCBmaXJzdCAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIGZpZWxkcyBzbyBhcyB0byBlbnN1cmUgdW5pcXVl bmVzcyBhbmQgCj4gcHJldmVudCBjb2xsaXNpb25zIGJldHdlZW4gdGhlIGZpcnN0ICdEZXNjcmlw dGlvbicgZmllbGRzIG9mIHRoZSAKPiB2YXJpb3VzIHJlY29yZCB0eXBlcy4gVGhlIExhbmd1YWdl IFN1YnRhZyBSZXZpZXdlciBTSE9VTEQgZWRpdCBvdGhlciwgCj4gbm9uLWZpcnN0LCAnRGVzY3Jp 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.143 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VEHwTe+N8Ar2 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B653A6765 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so1403272ywj.49 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:40:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=b37P7uOuoiebi/gzkJ1yLlbfEjo3IiBQBdApaxYM4BI=; b=blLado1jWJDxgBSyxKZxUzH+cuSN21VNnf86nL8Zonp9mIPOhXvnE/OD4XEzOph7Ef 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Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1640198545==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 20:57:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7FB3A682C; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:57:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BE9A3A682C for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:57:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zVtwZrd3Hseq for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7443C3A6828 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 467 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2008 03:57:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.31) with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2008 03:57:32 -0000 Message-ID: <581A57427D0C4E37A3A3F46D2F4B24F5@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20807092040j508f5f6cv64418d54053cd8e2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:57:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyB3cm90ZToKCj4gV2UgZGVjaWRlZCBvbiB0aGUgcG9saWN5IGZvciB0aGUgZmly c3QgRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gYmVpbmcgdGhlIHJlZmVyZW5jZSAKPiBuYW1lIHF1aXRlIHNvbWUgdGlt ZSBhZ28gKHByb2JhYmx5IG92ZXIgYSB5ZWFyKS4gRG8geW91IHJlYWxseSB3YW50IHRvIAo+IG9w ZW4gdGhhdCB1cCBhZ2Fpbj8/CgpXZSBkaWQgaW5kZWVkIGRlY2lkZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBmaXJzdCBE ZXNjcmlwdGlvbiB3b3VsZCByZWZsZWN0IHRoZSAKcmVmZXJlbmNlIG5hbWUuICBBdCBubyB0aW1l LCBob3dldmVyLCBkaWQgd2UgYXR0YWNoIE1VU1RhcmQgdG8gdGhlIHdheSAKdGhlIGZpcnN0IERl c2NyaXB0aW9uICphbmQgbm90IHRoZSBvdGhlcnMqIHdvdWxkIGJlIG1haW50YWluZWQuCgpJJ20g bm90IHRoZSBvbmUgb3BlbmluZyBhbnl0aGluZyB1cC4gIFRoaXMgc3VkZGVubHkgYXBwZWFyZWQg VHVlc2RheSBpbiAKdGhlIHVuaXF1ZW5lc3MgdGV4dCwgd2hpY2ggSSBkaWQgbm90IGNvbnRyaWJ1 dGUgdG8gKGJlaW5nIGF0IHdvcmsgYW5kIAphbGwpLiAgQ2hlY2sgdGhlIHByZXZpb3VzIGRyYWZ0 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(Postfix) with ESMTP id 821803A6850 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so858856yxg.49 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:05:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=HwmoTDr4mqquIc7i93IpPqjgN7fn6JDDAlSJyF+Iv7M=; b=Xm/W0ux1N87Ie9vupLgDH5yrpJyDIBlizHg2jpO3PXgGrhtDOg4UF0S6ByvVTt/fhy MzykwbScMbNljh4xhG4tVxy1ejPoosg5RNVPf+g6SDrPy2HzXfRJt8QVHYo/rIq84xVA UDd8upZ06My6K8TzTFaCA+fReXz2/eT5o4vgw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=j5e4zCV2YUdapIFAYrmzXKtO6kL3GkiT/alE+eyUDkP+CQrZnI/QceHPABT9IKZGGt /7XQJ4mec9bQrxBmvpiVyp8TAMCN57x5XJJm9qcefS8m2kL7InWuL1/Grk/GS6azOH23 iJ4wAbs+2snU1fNSVSKothyv8zKvF7rlEq5A8= Received: by 10.151.158.2 with SMTP id k2mr13699688ybo.70.1215662732815; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807092105i4743fc56x14650839193b247a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:05:32 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: <581A57427D0C4E37A3A3F46D2F4B24F5@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20807092040j508f5f6cv64418d54053cd8e2@mail.gmail.com> <581A57427D0C4E37A3A3F46D2F4B24F5@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 417ac7623db1fe08 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0964605158==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org 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------=_Part_13883_31468340.1215662732754-- --===============0964605158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0964605158==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 21:09:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6503A682C; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:09:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EFF3A682C for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:09:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.108, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ulYBsUG-TOvP for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B22B93A6765 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23900 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2008 04:09:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.37) with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2008 04:09:41 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20807092040j508f5f6cv64418d54053cd8e2@mail.gmail.com> <581A57427D0C4E37A3A3F46D2F4B24F5@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20807092105i4743fc56x14650839193b247a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:09:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyB3cm90ZToKCj4+IHdoeSBpcyBpdCBPSyBmb3Igbm9uLWZpcnN0IERlc2NyaXB0 aW9ucyB0byBjb2xsaWRlPwo+Cj4gV2Ugd291bGQgcHJlZmVyIGl0IGlmIG5vbmUgb2YgdGhlIERl c2NyaXB0aW9ucyBjb2xsaWRlZDsgd2UgY2FuIGxpdmUgCj4gd2l0aCB0aGUgbG9vc2VyIGNvbmRp dGlvbiwgc28gdGhhdCB3YXMganVzdCBhIGNvbXByb21pc2UgcG9zaXRpb24uIAo+IFdlJ3JlIGZp bmUgd2l0aCB0aWdodGVuaW5nIGl0IHVwLgoKSXQncyBhIGJhZCBjb21wcm9taXNlLiAgU2luY2Ug 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core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935073A6813 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:27:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.806 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.806 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.207, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j0yN-zud3g+5 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB553A684C for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:27:38 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,335,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7906756" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 04:27:51 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6A4Roqw022822 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:27:51 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:27:50 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:27:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjiQs5LWsXtbpw7RtqZ8ISET45YHgAAN0Uw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8AA@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20807092040j508f5f6cv64418d54053cd8e2@mail.gmail.com> <581A57427D0C4E37A3A3F46D2F4B24F5@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20807092105i4743fc56x14650839193b247a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TmljZSBvZiB5b3UgdHdvIHRvIGFncmVlIDotRC4NCg0KSSBkb24ndCBuZWNlc3NhcmlseSB0aGlu ayB3ZSBuZWVkIHRvIGNvdmVyIGFsbCBjYXNlcyB3aXRoIE1VU1RhcmQsIGJ1dCBhbSBoYXBweSB0 byB1cGRhdGUgdGhlIGRyYWZ0IGluIHRoaXMgZGlyZWN0aW9uLg0KDQpUaGlzIHRleHQ6DQoNCjx0 PlRoZSBmaXJzdCAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIGZpZWxkIGFzc2lnbmVkIHRvIHJlY29yZCBvZiBhbnkg c3BlY2lmaWMgdHlwZSAoJ2xhbmd1YWdlJywgJ2V4dGxhbmcnLCAnc2NyaXB0JywgYW5kIHNvIG9u KSAgTVVTVCBiZSB1bmlxdWUgd2l0aGluIHRoYXQgZ2l2ZW4gcmVjb3JkIHR5cGUgc28gdGhhdCB1 c2VycyBkbyBub3QgYmVjb21lIGNvbmZ1c2VkIGFib3V0IHdoaWNoIHN1YnRhZyB0byB1c2UuIFRo ZSBMYW5ndWFnZSBTdWJ0YWcgUmV2aWV3ZXIgTVVTVCBlZGl0IGFueSBwcm9wb3NlZCBmaXJzdCAn 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b3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQNCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGlj Lm9yZw0KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5o dG1sDQo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFu Z3VhZ2VzICDLhg0KPg0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXw0KPiBMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8v d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQ0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9y ZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 21:39:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4063A6902; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:39:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B833D3A682E for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:39:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RlFam4pa+w7K for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DBEEC3A6902 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5978 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2008 04:39:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.44) with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2008 04:39:48 -0000 Message-ID: <1D13F754B8A645A8820DD86C713CC472@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:39:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IFByZWZpeDogc2wtcm96YWoKPiBQcmVmaXg6IHNsLXJvemFqLWJpc2tlCj4gUHJlZml4OiBzbC1y b3phai1uaml2YQo+IFByZWZpeDogc2wtcm96YWotb3NvanMKPiBQcmVmaXg6IHNsLXJvemFqLXNv bGJhCj4KPiAxOTk0IGlzIG9yZGVyZWQgYWZ0ZXIgJ2Jpc2tlJywgJ25qaXZhJywgJ29zb2pzJywg 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 21:46:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27EE3A6962; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:46:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203713A6962 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:46:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRn9sgTIAFfw for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134403A68B3 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,335,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7911571" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 04:47:10 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6A4l91B004722 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:47:10 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:47:09 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:47:13 -0700 Thread-Topic: section 3.5 and descriptions... Thread-Index: AcjiSAU+HNlzvoYbR2Kjtmu9wAVzWw== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org After editing the stuff about unique Description fields, I checked Section 3.5 (registration procedure) to ensure consistency. Some edits resulted. 1. The text about examples of completed registration forms was changed. The online list provided is not just examples: it is a complete list of approved forms. I said this. Examples of completed registration forms can be found in . A complete list of approved registration forms is online at http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/. 2. I added some text about prefixless variants, since we've never recognized them formally. The text is: Requests to add a 'Prefix' to a variant subtag that has no current prefix will also probably be rejected. Variants with no prefix are potentially useful with many or even all languages. Adding one or more Prefix fields would potentially harmful to the use of the variant. An example of such a variant is the subtag 'fonipa', which represents the International Phonetic Alphabet, a scheme which can be used to transcribe many languages. 3. I modified text about Description, noting in passing John Cowan's previous observation that something was Very Wrong in this paragraph (it referred to registering tags for example). I made it read: The 'Description' fields provided in the request MUST contain at least one description written or transcribed into the Latin script; it MAY also include additional 'Description' fields in non-Latin scripts. The 'Description' field is used for identification purposes and doesn't necessarily represent the actual native name of the language or variation or to be in any particular language. Each 'Description' field MUST be unique for a given record type. For example, an attempt to register a 'Description' of "French" for a language subtag would be rejected because the subtag 'fr' is already using that description. 4. Finally, in discussing "required registrations" (caused by ISO actions), I added the consensus requirement to: The Language Subtag Reviewer MAY reject a specific version of the form, but MUST include in the rejection a suitable replacement, extending the review period as described above, until the form is in a format worthy of reviewer's approval and meets with rough consensus of the list. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 21:47:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1FD63A697F; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:47:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 929FF3A67A2 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:47:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.162, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e86kIc9PKgjt for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 335D03A6980 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:47:18 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:47:18 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis , "Phillips, Addison" Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:47:07 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjiEjI3USDfn8cwShuiEgz+gEqr5QANcysg Message-ID: References: <20080708050053.GC15083@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94B45@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807081334g1335e73dmc48d694fc9d7876b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081715i61188093tc03ccb0d2b7f5824@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64ECD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091521o6f9f4ba6ta32a7500971f4ce4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807091521o6f9f4ba6ta32a7500971f4ce4@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: EQnN IS0x I183 Nj1Y QTsa QT5P VxCQ V8/S W2e9 XeLx Yz3P Z/LU aIHj bFXP dvFl eYjN; 3; YQBkAGQAaQBzAG8AbgBAAGEAbQBhAHoAbwBuAC4AYwBvAG0AOwBsAHQAcgB1AEAAaQBlAHQAZgAuAG8AcgBnADsAbQBhAHIAawAuAGQAYQB2AGkAcwBAAGkAYwB1AC0AcAByAG8AagBlAGMAdAAuAG8AcgBnAA==; Sosha1_v1; 7; {E68E78E3-46C4-4172-8A47-835179DBAE96}; cABlAHQAZQByAGMAbwBuAEAAbQBpAGMAcgBvAHMAbwBmAHQALgBjAG8AbQA=; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:47:07 GMT; UgBFADoAIABbAEwAdAByAHUAXQAgADMALgAxAC4ANAA6ACAAZABlAHMAYwByAGkAcAB0AGkAbwBuACAAZgBpAGUAbABkACAAdQBuAGkAcQB1AGUAbgBlAHMAcwA= x-cr-puzzleid: {E68E78E3-46C4-4172-8A47-835179DBAE96} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1329620974==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1329620974== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579563391BEB35NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579563391BEB35NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1329620974==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 21:48:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04B23A697F; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:48:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2838F3A6864 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:48:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.728 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.728 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.129, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rc6ksOS-s2-A for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C383B3A68B3 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:48:02 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,335,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7911804" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 04:48:16 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6A4mFH5014178 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:48:16 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:48:15 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:48:19 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjiRwBx0G7t58qXTiaj8AWUEiopBQAASnww Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <1D13F754B8A645A8820DD86C713CC472@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <1D13F754B8A645A8820DD86C713CC472@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org KzENCg0KQWRkaXNvbiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KR2xvYmFsaXphdGlvbiBBcmNoaXRlY3QgLS0gTGFiMTI2 DQoNCkludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBhIGZlYXR1cmUuDQpJdCBpcyBhbiBhcmNo 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L2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 21:50:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1063A682E; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:50:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC713A682E for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:50:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.757 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.757 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.158, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O+AaUsavrLQR for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A52A3A67A2 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:51:08 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:51:08 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:51:03 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjiQswbxj0q/+UmRemQAV9a4AE2sQABYo6Q Message-ID: References: <30b660a20807092040j508f5f6cv64418d54053cd8e2@mail.gmail.com> <581A57427D0C4E37A3A3F46D2F4B24F5@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20807092105i4743fc56x14650839193b247a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Doug Ewell > > We would prefer it if none of the Descriptions collided; we can live > > with the looser condition, so that was just a compromise position. > > We're fine with tightening it up. > > It's a bad compromise. Since you're fine with tightening it up, and > I'm > adamant about it, it looks like we have an agreement. Are you suggesting that the LSR MUST also ensure uniqueness across records of a given type for all the other Descriptions? Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 22:12:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81AB33A6827; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:12:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72B63A6827 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:12:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.565 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.565 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.258, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nm+3JvOVgmmo for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org (smtp1.wsfo.org [208.145.81.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDBD43A6765 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m6A5CK43023025 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:12:22 -0400 X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.75 (ClamAV engine v0.93) Received: from [118.172.30.217] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO sil-mh4) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPSA id 187037564 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:12:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:12:29 +0700 From: Martin Hosken Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20080710121229.52ed53e0@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64722@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB646FB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709214941.1e3fd46a@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64722@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 172.22.0.51 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Addison, > > Not really. The 15924 JAC decided that IPA is a subset of Latn. So > > saying bru-Thai-fonipa is semantically meaningless. fonipa only > > makes sense in conjunction with Latn and therefore can imply it. > > > > It doesn't necessarily make sense to REQUIRE a tag such as "en-Latn-fonipa", though. The 'Latn' subtag is superfluous and adds no additional semantic value. In fact, no language tag adds semantic value by including a script in the case of fonipa. For example, "zh-yue-Latn-HK-fonipa" is also unnecessarily long. > > There are other similar examples. 'baku1926' implies Latn too. 'monoton' implies 'Grek'. I agree entirely. But there is nothing in the registry or standard that says this. So I think we need a suppress script for these variants. Yours, Martin _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 22:16:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CE23A6850; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:16:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BBD3A63D2 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:16:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.693 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.693 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UCNDVSsBxJdT for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1638A3A6850 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:16:42 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,336,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="7918291" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 05:16:55 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6A5GseJ001772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:16:55 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:16:54 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Hosken Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:17:00 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa Thread-Index: AcjiS4t9+0QpuVn9S0ecVb+Oe+/IVgAAH2iA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8DC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB646FB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709214941.1e3fd46a@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64722@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080710121229.52ed53e0@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <20080710121229.52ed53e0@sil-mh4> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org No. We don't. We have rule #1: Tag Content Wisely, complete with several pages of text saying this already. We could go on adding more registry cruft until the crack of doom. At some point, we have to let people tag stuff. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Martin Hosken > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:12 PM > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa > > Dear Addison, > > > > Not really. The 15924 JAC decided that IPA is a subset of Latn. > So > > > saying bru-Thai-fonipa is semantically meaningless. fonipa only > > > makes sense in conjunction with Latn and therefore can imply it. > > > > > > > It doesn't necessarily make sense to REQUIRE a tag such as "en- > Latn-fonipa", though. The 'Latn' subtag is superfluous and adds no > additional semantic value. In fact, no language tag adds semantic > value by including a script in the case of fonipa. For example, > "zh-yue-Latn-HK-fonipa" is also unnecessarily long. > > > > There are other similar examples. 'baku1926' implies Latn too. > 'monoton' implies 'Grek'. > > I agree entirely. But there is nothing in the registry or standard > that says this. So I think we need a suppress script for these > variants. > > Yours, > Martin > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 22:17:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E293A6850; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:17:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B8B3A6850 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:17:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.844 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.844 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.245, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Iug3wyqdVXV for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38FA3A67EA for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:17:32 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,336,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="74428267" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 05:17:45 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6A5Hir9026062 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:17:45 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:17:44 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:17:49 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: AcjiQswbxj0q/+UmRemQAV9a4AE2sQABYo6QAAD4uQA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8DD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20807092040j508f5f6cv64418d54053cd8e2@mail.gmail.com> <581A57427D0C4E37A3A3F46D2F4B24F5@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20807092105i4743fc56x14650839193b247a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Yes. That's what they said. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:51 PM > To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of > > Doug Ewell > > > > > We would prefer it if none of the Descriptions collided; we can > live > > > with the looser condition, so that was just a compromise > position. > > > We're fine with tightening it up. > > > > It's a bad compromise. Since you're fine with tightening it up, > and > > I'm > > adamant about it, it looks like we have an agreement. > > Are you suggesting that the LSR MUST also ensure uniqueness across > records of a given type for all the other Descriptions? > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 22:35:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7103A6831; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:35:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2293A6850 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:35:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i4yIwdOUxasn for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.221]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C3ED73A6831 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30452 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2008 05:36:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.221) with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2008 05:36:06 -0000 Message-ID: <4BECD4A97A944A84BE19ED6DDA454133@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20807092040j508f5f6cv64418d54053cd8e2@mail.gmail.com><581A57427D0C4E37A3A3F46D2F4B24F5@DGBP7M81><30b660a20807092105i4743fc56x14650839193b247a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:36:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDxwZXRlcmNvbiBhdCBtaWNyb3NvZnQgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEFyZSB5b3Ugc3VnZ2VzdGluZyB0aGF0IHRoZSBMU1IgTVVTVCBhbHNvIGVuc3VyZSB1bmlxdWVu ZXNzIGFjcm9zcyAKPiByZWNvcmRzIG9mIGEgZ2l2ZW4gdHlwZSBmb3IgYWxsIHRoZSBvdGhlciBE ZXNjcmlwdGlvbnM/CgpZZXAuCgpIZXJlIGlzIHRoZSBsaXN0IG9mIGNvbmZsaWN0aW5nIG5hbWVz IChleGNsdWRpbmcgZGVwcmVjYXRlZCBzdWJ0YWdzIGFuZCAKIlBSSVZBVEUgVVNFIiwgd2hpY2gg d2UgYWdyZWUgYXJlbid0IHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIHByb2JsZW0gc3BhY2UpOgoKTGFuZ3VhZ2VzOgot IEFydcOhIChhcnUsIGFyeCkKLSBBd2EgKGF3YiwgdndhKQotIEJvcm5hIChid28sIGJ4eCkKLSBE aW1saSAoZGlxLCB6emEpCi0gS2lybWFuamtpIChraXUsIHp6YSkKLSBNdXJpayAobXRmLCBteHIp CgpUaGF0J3Mgbm90IG1hbnkgY29uZmxpY3RzIG91dCBvZiAoZXhhY3RseSEpIDgwMDAgRGVzY3Jp cHRpb24gZmllbGRzIGZvciAKbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugc3VidGFncy4gIFRoZXNlIGNhbiBiZSBsb29rZWQg dXAgaW4gRXRobm9sb2d1ZSAob3IgaWYgcGVvcGxlIAppbnNpc3QsIGFub3RoZXIgc291cmNlKSBh bmQgaXQgb3VnaHQgdG8gYmUgcG9zc2libGUgdG8gZGlzYW1iaWd1YXRlIHRoZW0gCmluIHNvbWUg d2F5LgoKVGhlcmUgYXJlIG5vIGNvbmZsaWN0cyBmb3IgYW55IG90aGVyIHR5cGUgb2Ygc3VidGFn LgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAg KiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0 bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3Jn Cmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 22:42:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31803A67A2; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I'm OK with the changes. Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:18 PM > To: Peter Constable; Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness > > Yes. That's what they said. > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Peter Constable > > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:51 PM > > To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness > > > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of > > > Doug Ewell > > > > > > > > We would prefer it if none of the Descriptions collided; we can > > live > > > > with the looser condition, so that was just a compromise > > position. > > > > We're fine with tightening it up. > > > > > > It's a bad compromise. Since you're fine with tightening it up, > > and > > > I'm > > > adamant about it, it looks like we have an agreement. > > > > Are you suggesting that the LSR MUST also ensure uniqueness across > > records of a given type for all the other Descriptions? > > > > > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 23:40:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442B83A6970; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:40:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5F63A6962 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:40:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.089, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WAvU0Ev-cSBg for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FB383A68AD for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27829 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2008 06:40:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.37) with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2008 06:40:55 -0000 Message-ID: <5DC42DD584574D6E93CE70243BFE8567@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:40:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ Pj4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIG90aGVyIHNpbWlsYXIgZXhhbXBsZXMuICdiYWt1MTkyNicgaW1wbGllcyBM YXRuIHRvby4gCj4+PiAnbW9ub3RvbicgaW1wbGllcyAnR3JlaycuCj4+Cj4+IEkgYWdyZWUgZW50 aXJlbHkuIEJ1dCB0aGVyZSBpcyBub3RoaW5nIGluIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeSBvciBzdGFuZGFyZCAK Pj4gdGhhdCBzYXlzIHRoaXMuIFNvIEkgdGhpbmsgd2UgbmVlZCBhIHN1cHByZXNzIHNjcmlwdCBm b3IgdGhlc2UgCj4+IHZhcmlhbnRzLgo+Cj4gTm8uIFdlIGRvbid0LgoKV2F5IG5vLgoKPiBXZSBo YXZlIHJ1bGUgIzE6IFRhZyBDb250ZW50IFdpc2VseSwgY29tcGxldGUgd2l0aCBzZXZlcmFsIHBh Z2VzIG9mIAo+IHRleHQgc2F5aW5nIHRoaXMgYWxyZWFkeS4gV2UgY291bGQgZ28gb24gYWRkaW5n IG1vcmUgcmVnaXN0cnkgY3J1ZnQgCj4gdW50aWwgdGhlIGNyYWNrIG9mIGRvb20uIEF0IHNvbWUg cG9pbnQsIHdlIGhhdmUgdG8gbGV0IHBlb3BsZSB0YWcgCj4gc3R1ZmYuCgpBbmQgaW4gcGFydGlj dWxhciwgd2UgaGF2ZSB0byBzdG9wIHRoaW5raW5nIG9mIFN1cHByZXNzLVNjcmlwdCBhcyB0aGUg CnVsdGltYXRlIGNydXRjaCB0byBndWlkZSBwZW9wbGUgdG93YXJkIGNvcnJlY3QgdGFnZ2luZy4K ClN1cHByZXNzLVNjcmlwdCB3YXMgaW52ZW50ZWQgdG8gc29sdmUgT05FIHByb2JsZW0sIG5hbWVs eSB0aGF0IFJGQyA0NjQ2IAppbnRyb2R1Y2VkIHRoZSBzY3JpcHQgc3VidGFnIGFuZCBwbGFjZWQg aXQgYmV0d2VlbiB0aGUgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgYW5kIApyZWdpb24gc3VidGFncywgd2hpY2ggd291bGQg Y2F1c2UgZXhpc3RpbmcgbWF0Y2hpbmcgbG9naWMgdG8gZmFpbCBpZjoKCigxKSB0aGUgbWF0Y2hp bmcgbG9naWMgbWFkZSB0aGUgZmF1bHR5IGFzc3VtcHRpb24sIG5ldmVyIHN0YXRlZCBhcyBzdWNo IAppbiBSRkMgMTc2NiBvciAzMDY2LCB0aGF0IG5vdGhpbmcgY291bGQgZXZlciBjb21lIGJldHdl ZW4gdGhlIGxhbmd1YWdlIAphbmQgcmVnaW9uIHN1YnRhZ3MsIGFuZAoKKDIpIHRoZSBtYXRjaGlu ZyBsb2dpYyBwZXJmb3JtZWQgb25seSBleGFjdCBtYXRjaGluZyBvciAKcmVtb3ZlLWZyb20tcmln aHQgcHJlZml4IG1hdGNoaW5nLCB3aGljaCBpcyBzdGlsbCB0cnVlIHRvZGF5LCBhbmQKCigzKSB0 YWdzIHN0YXJ0ZWQgYXBwZWFyaW5nIHdpdGggc2NyaXB0IHN1YnRhZ3MgdGhhdCB3ZXJlIHByb2Jh Ymx5IApyZWR1bmRhbnQgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGUgd3JpdHRlbiBmb3JtIG9mIHRoZSBsYW5ndWFnZSBp biBxdWVzdGlvbiBpcyAKb3ZlcndoZWxtaW5nbHkgd3JpdHRlbiBpbiB0aGF0IHNjcmlwdC4KClN1 cHByZXNzLVNjcmlwdCB3YXMgbWVhbnQgdG8gaGVscCBzb2x2ZSB0aGlzIHByb2JsZW0gYnkgdGFr aW5nIGVsZW1lbnQgCigzKSBvdXQgb2YgdGhlIGVxdWF0aW9uLCBoZWxwaW5nIHRhZ2dlcnMgdG8g aWRlbnRpZnkgYW5kIHRodXMgYXZvaWQgCnVubmVjZXNzYXJ5IHNjcmlwdCBzdWJ0YWdzIHRoYXQg d291bGQgY2F1c2UgdGhpcyBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIG1hdGNoaW5nIAphc3N1bXB0aW9uICgibm90aGlu ZyBiZXR3ZWVuIGxhbmd1YWdlIGFuZCByZWdpb24iKSB0byBmYWlsLgoKSXQgd2FzIG5ldmVyIG1l YW50IHRvIGFwcGx5IGFjcm9zcyB0aGUgYm9hcmQgdG8gY2FzZXMgdGhhdCBoYXZlIG5vdGhpbmcg CnRvIGRvIHdpdGggbWFpbnRhaW5pbmcgY29tcGF0aWJpbGl0eSB3aXRoIGluY29tcGxldGVseSBp bXBsZW1lbnRlZCAxNzY2IAphbmQgMzA2NiBwYXJzZXJzLCBub3IgdG8gc2VydmUgYXMgYW4gb3Zl cmFsbCBndWlkZSB0byBhdm9pZGluZyAKdW5uZWNlc3Nhcnkgc3VidGFncy4gIElmIGl0IHdlcmUs IHdlIGNvdWxkIGhhdmUgaW52ZW50ZWQgYSAKU3VwcHJlc3MtUmVnaW9uIGZpZWxkIGFzIHdlbGws IHN0ZWVyaW5nIHRhZ2dlcnMgYXdheSBmcm9tIHRoaW5ncyBsaWtlIAoia2wtR0wiIHdoZXJlIHRo ZSBvdmVyd2hlbG1pbmcgbWFqb3JpdHkgb2YgR3JlZW5sYW5kaWMgaXMgb2YgdGhlIHZhcmlldHkg CnNwb2tlbiBpbiBHcmVlbmxhbmQuICBBbmQgd2UgY291bGQgaGF2ZSBpbnZlbnRlZCBhIG1lY2hh bmlzbSB0byBzdXBwcmVzcyAKdmFyaWFudCBzdWJ0YWdzIGFzIHdlbGwuICBCdXQgdGFncyBsaWtl IHRoYXQgZG8gbm90IGNhdXNlIHRoZSBzYW1lIHNvcnQgCm9mIGdyaWVmIGZvciBleGlzdGluZyBj b2RlIHRoYXQgdW5uZWNlc3Nhcnkgc2NyaXB0IHN1YnRhZ3MgcmVwb3J0ZWRseSAKd291bGQgaGF2 ZSBjYXVzZWQuCgpQZW9wbGUgd2hvIGFyZSBpbiBhIHBvc2l0aW9uIHRvIHRhZyBtb25vdG9uaWMg R3JlZWsgY29udGVudCBkb24ndCBuZWVkIGEgCnNwZWNpZmljIGFubm90YXRpb24gb3IgZmllbGQg aW4gdGhlIFJlZ2lzdHJ5IHRvIGZpZ3VyZSBvdXQgdGhhdCB0aGVyZSAKbWlnaHQgYmUgc29tZXRo aW5nIHJlZHVuZGFudCBhYm91dCB1c2luZyAnR3JlaycgKHNjcmlwdCBzdWJ0YWcgbWVhbmluZyAK IkdyZWVrIikgdG9nZXRoZXIgd2l0aCAnbW9ub3RvbicgKHZhcmlhbnQgc3VidGFnIG1lYW5pbmcg Ik1vbm90b25pYyAKR3JlZWsiKSAtLSBub3QganVzdCAicHJvYmFibHkiIHJlZHVuZGFudCwgbGlr ZSAia2wtR0wiLCBidXQgZGVtb25zdHJhYmx5IApyZWR1bmRhbnQuICBCdXQgbmVpdGhlciBpbmNs dWRpbmcgbm9yIGV4Y2x1ZGluZyB0aGUgc2NyaXB0IHN1YnRhZyBzaG91bGQgCmNhdXNlIHByb2Js ZW1zIGZvciBtYXRjaGluZzsgdGhpcyBpcyBub3QgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUgMTc2Ni8zMDY2IG1hdGNo aW5nIApwcm9ibGVtLgoKQW55d2F5LiAgV2F5IG5vLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRh LCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxs aWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0 bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFn ZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpM dHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 00:36:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E5D3A699C; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:36:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53BEF3A699C for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:36:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.215, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JkpQbITyVB39 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org (smtp1.wsfo.org [208.145.81.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498993A6986 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m6A7aKAJ030207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:36:22 -0400 X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.75 (ClamAV engine v0.93) Received: from [118.172.30.217] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO sil-mh4) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPSA id 187045518 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:36:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:36:29 +0700 From: Martin Hosken Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20080710143629.3b7473dc@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8DC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB646FB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709214941.1e3fd46a@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64722@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080710121229.52ed53e0@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8DC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 172.22.0.51 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Addison, > We have rule #1: Tag Content Wisely, complete with several pages of text saying this already. We could go on adding more registry cruft until the crack of doom. At some point, we have to let people tag stuff. The question is how do we turn 'tag wisely' into a set of canonicalisation rules. If we want wisdom in how canonical tags are made, then we have to codify that wisdom somehow. The point of canonicalisation is to take out as much ambiguity as we can. You say: -fonipa implies Latn so don't include it in your tag if you are being wise. What is the canonicalisation rule for that? Yours, Martin > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Martin Hosken > > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:12 PM > > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa > > > > Dear Addison, > > > > > > Not really. The 15924 JAC decided that IPA is a subset of Latn. > > So > > > > saying bru-Thai-fonipa is semantically meaningless. fonipa only > > > > makes sense in conjunction with Latn and therefore can imply it. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't necessarily make sense to REQUIRE a tag such as "en- > > Latn-fonipa", though. The 'Latn' subtag is superfluous and adds no > > additional semantic value. In fact, no language tag adds semantic > > value by including a script in the case of fonipa. For example, > > "zh-yue-Latn-HK-fonipa" is also unnecessarily long. > > > > > > There are other similar examples. 'baku1926' implies Latn too. > > 'monoton' implies 'Grek'. > > > > I agree entirely. But there is nothing in the registry or standard > > that says this. So I think we need a suppress script for these > > variants. > > > > Yours, > > Martin > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 08:41:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FF73A6827; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:41:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0EB23A67D7 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:41:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.152, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nueTiypxuiOc for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF51F3A6818 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:41:50 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:41:50 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:41:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: Acjh8sZ5BxwdgD46SHOQzIZyPP96EgAsF8HQ Message-ID: References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1547347138==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1547347138== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579563391BEBEFNAEXMSGC117re_" 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Pg0K --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579563391BEBEFNAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============1547347138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1547347138==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 09:02:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305913A69FD; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:02:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F4F3A6844 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:02:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.746 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.746 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sWECF3ZyQ1Oh for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061073A68D5 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:02:23 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:02:23 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:02:22 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjiEcTtxBju1A+wSv2loHakOrQ2CAAkc18A Message-ID: References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0997006205==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 09:58:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF4E3A69CA; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:58:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6FD3A69CA for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:58:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.405 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.405 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.429, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6K5PVFN5m+Hx for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.188]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CFF3A67A3 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m36so1075496rnd.18 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:58:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=w1WytuBlOrppo2+cbV+UmEahG2Q5xQcpTnozYlP9Vnk=; b=m3CvETx58ofy7uBBtoXZyNWMU0lzWwWLYZKlE+MLIaFiq/e7SF49aksDwug9upGSMh B2H4I9H4jLtDsuNn9zTEk0NjWwdcOEYRJ3E8LkltntIZvP0wZ3t8oNwns6iR8LO24Kqn 8U4oZUfXZKwcU7awzNWjd3k5k5Xp9B8YXVIBU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=EbxDYYSTCForxWw3lHhJoi8SPx46dCKN509JRF9PSQLFTwBwRFThDs+emaWm7yJk01 58pJabzVzYim2eymbPCW/Zz1YfsHucoFpIKpGirHMHSgBHcTW27WdJGho4SvxwnU/zCx c4mr0P7GgGY3avjWlsAjDRNAUzJ7UnrpfIeHU= Received: by 10.151.42.18 with SMTP id u18mr14647993ybj.221.1215709112014; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807100958p4aaec02dud1f1ea79398b7862@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:58:31 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: ffae71def9f89858 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0992483301==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0992483301== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_21559_15970951.1215709111994" ------=_Part_21559_15970951.1215709111994 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Looks good. A couple of comments below. Mark On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > After editing the stuff about unique Description fields, I checked Section > 3.5 (registration procedure) to ensure consistency. Some edits resulted. > > 1. The text about examples of completed registration forms was changed. The > online list provided is not just examples: it is a complete list of approved > forms. I said this. > > Examples of completed registration forms can be found in target="regexamples"/>. A complete list of approved registration forms is > online at > http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/. > > 2. I added some text about prefixless variants, since we've never > recognized them formally. The text is: > > Requests to add a 'Prefix' to a variant subtag that has no current > prefix will also probably be rejected. This needs to be a MUST on the LSR and a "will be" here. Adding a prefix to one that doesn't have one will narrow the range, which we don't allow. > Variants with no prefix are potentially useful with many or even all > languages. Adding one or more Prefix fields would potentially harmful to the > use of the variant. An example of such a variant is the subtag 'fonipa', > which represents the International Phonetic Alphabet, a scheme which can be > used to transcribe many languages. > > 3. I modified text about Description, noting in passing John Cowan's > previous observation that something was Very Wrong in this paragraph (it > referred to registering tags for example). I made it read: > > The 'Description' fields provided in the request MUST contain at least > one description written or transcribed into the Latin script; it MAY also > include additional 'Description' fields in non-Latin scripts. The > 'Description' field is used for identification purposes and doesn't > necessarily represent the actual native name of the language or variation or > to be in any particular language. Each 'Description' field MUST be unique > for a given record type. (uniqueness will probably be broadened pending other discussion) > For example, an attempt to register a 'Description' of "French" for a > language subtag would be rejected because the subtag 'fr' is already using > that description. > > 4. Finally, in discussing "required registrations" (caused by ISO actions), > I added the consensus requirement to: > > The Language Subtag Reviewer MAY reject a specific version of the form, but > MUST include in the rejection a suitable replacement, extending the review > period as described above, until the form is in a format worthy of > reviewer's approval and meets with rough consensus of the list. > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_21559_15970951.1215709111994 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Looks good. A couple of comments below.

Mark

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
After editing the stuff about unique Description fields, I checked Section 3.5 (registration procedure) to ensure consistency. Some edits resulted.

1. The text about examples of completed registration forms was changed. The online list provided is not just examples: it is a complete list of approved forms. I said this.

<t>Examples of completed registration forms can be found in <xref target="regexamples"/>. A complete list of approved registration forms is online at <eref target="http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/">http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/</eref>.</t>

2. I added some text about prefixless variants, since we've never recognized them formally. The text is:

<t>Requests to add a 'Prefix' to a variant subtag that has no current prefix will also probably be rejected.
 
This needs to be a MUST on the LSR and a "will be" here. Adding a prefix to one that doesn't have one will narrow the range, which we don't allow.
 
Variants with no prefix are potentially useful with many or even all languages. Adding one or more Prefix fields would potentially harmful to the use of the variant. An example of such a variant is the subtag 'fonipa', which represents the International Phonetic Alphabet, a scheme which can be used to transcribe many languages.</t>

3. I modified text about Description, noting in passing John Cowan's previous observation that something was Very Wrong in this paragraph (it referred to registering tags for example). I made it read:

<t>The 'Description' fields provided in the request MUST contain at least one description written or transcribed into the Latin script; it MAY also include additional 'Description' fields in non-Latin scripts. The 'Description' field is used for identification purposes and doesn't necessarily represent the actual native name of the language or variation or to be in any particular language. Each 'Description' field MUST be unique for a given record type.
(uniqueness will probably be broadened pending other discussion)
For example, an attempt to register a 'Description' of "French" for a language subtag would be rejected because the subtag 'fr' is already using that description.</t>

4. Finally, in discussing "required registrations" (caused by ISO actions), I added the consensus requirement to:

The Language Subtag Reviewer MAY reject a specific version of the form, but MUST include in the rejection a suitable replacement, extending the review period as described above, until the form is in a format worthy of reviewer's approval and meets with rough consensus of the list.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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Ltru mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_21559_15970951.1215709111994-- --===============0992483301== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0992483301==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 09:59:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D683A685A; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:59:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33403A697D for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:59:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.351 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.351 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.375, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j+ie6xr+IOdG for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0053A67A3 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m36so1075895rnd.18 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:59:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=o7d8X2fhVSAi4x2NgWDllnVcu/pT8MuOA5BTJHUpTsU=; b=eBJ+eD423Mjebjd7jX2Ll0QdV+R1Iqw3ZspfSQf0lWlfRO/aV18OC6863TjD4xdk2p 22IEUkJaFQNExzOPDJ60QytqxcYTUvVLxGEc3X+Vzy6Dshh8mqTEfC1PRTNlVhChSads 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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.476 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.476 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AUfjNSA9w+Md for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com (ti-out-0910.google.com [209.85.142.188]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D362D3A67A3 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id a6so2058584tib.25 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:00:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=XPfWLWsRoiIUPd6erKo7M+CcUTPBAjopp99T07imdIY=; 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Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0936314987==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 10:10:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F94E3A687D; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:10:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A0A3A687D for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:10:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.66 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.66 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.939, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AbpWpqCXOfOk for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B823A67A3 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:10:19 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,339,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="85440210" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 17:10:33 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6AHAXD1030597 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:10:33 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:10:33 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:10:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... Thread-Index: AcjirjVF6L0JzAfkTeWokQeeM1+HhAAANrHA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4AC68@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807100958p4aaec02dud1f1ea79398b7862@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807100958p4aaec02dud1f1ea79398b7862@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark wrote: -- Requests to add a 'Prefix' to a variant subtag that has no current prefix will also probably be rejected. This needs to be a MUST on the LSR and a "will be" here. Adding a prefix to one that doesn't have one will narrow the range, which we don't allow. -- That's a good point. I'll make the change. -- particular language. Each 'Description' field MUST be unique for a given record type. (uniqueness will probably be broadened pending other discussion) -- That does say "for a given record *type*". I can't see us broadening uniqueness to the whole registry. For example, 'he', 'iw', and 'Hebr' all have the Description "Hebrew". Given our new rules, 'iw' would need to acquire a new Description, but I don't see forcing 'Hebr' to have a Description of "Hebrew (script)" as necessary. Ditto 'ar' and 'Arab'---and I'm sure more that I don't know off hand. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 10:11:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9490E3A68E7; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:11:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6C2A3A68E7 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:11:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.823 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.823 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qgDp1uctSh2f for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1923A67A3 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:11:27 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,339,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="74683291" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 17:11:36 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6AHBafk019640; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:11:36 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:11:36 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:11:12 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Peter Constable Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:11:34 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness Thread-Index: Acjirl9zFETT6AXsQ6GgTbiGvPglxQAAY5qw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4AC6D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20807081048u114c3f09x4adfeaf74d0b8cbf@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807081334g1335e73dmc48d694fc9d7876b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64185@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807081715i61188093tc03ccb0d2b7f5824@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64ECD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091521o6f9f4ba6ta32a7500971f4ce4@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20807100959l5bffbbey9ea9aeca2792d8f6@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: 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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1835320437==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 10:31:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD7F3A6A71; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C3603A6A34 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.806 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.806 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.208, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vy42xGw5ayNy for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA7E3A6A10 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:13 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,339,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="74690908" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 17:31:28 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6AHVR93029007 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:31:27 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:27 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:25 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjiEcTtxBju1A+wSv2loHakOrQ2CAAkc18AAAJ6QwA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list 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[127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EAB13A6A60 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.687 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.687 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e+fU3XlQDrbN for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBBAE3A6A6B for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:35 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,339,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="8205113" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 17:31:48 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6AHVlVK029304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:31:48 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:48 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:24 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Hosken Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:31:46 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa Thread-Index: AcjiX6uRudmPXguuTOSJiJSfTHbTOwAUIvjg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD6@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64506@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709123344.3c278262@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB646FB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709214941.1e3fd46a@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64722@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080710121229.52ed53e0@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8DC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080710143629.3b7473dc@sil-mh4> In-Reply-To: <20080710143629.3b7473dc@sil-mh4> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I disagree with your characterization of canonicalization. It does not "eliminate ambiguity". What it does is eliminate otherwise-unimportant differences between two semantically equivalent values. We allow many unwise tags. For example, "tlh-Cyrl-AQ-fonupa" is well-formed, valid, and canonical. It's also laughable, bringing to mind, as it does, freezing mythical Star Trek aliens typing on cast off Soviet typewriters. Canonicalization says how to take a tag and make it consistent in terms of capitalization/format and in terms of modern subtag choice. However, as a process, it does not disturb or destroy the original meaning of the tag. We cannot know why the user chose a specific set of subtags---they may have meaning in her particular context. In the post I was responding to, you suggested we add even more information about tag choice to the registry--in particular, you suggested that we expand Suppress-Script to other subtag types (which, please note, is NOT considered as part of canonicalization today). I can't really support doing this or adding some other mechanism such as a Disallow-Prefix or some-such. It adds to the overall edifice of what implementers must deal with---at a time when most implementations are of the "stick 2*8alpha subtags together with hyphens" variety. The more arcane we require software to implement, the fewer conforming applications we will have. Given that variants are rare and tend to be very highly specialized, supplying lots of formal requirements for their use and implementation will make them even less appealing. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Martin Hosken > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:36 AM > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa > > Dear Addison, > > > We have rule #1: Tag Content Wisely, complete with several pages > of text saying this already. We could go on adding more registry > cruft until the crack of doom. At some point, we have to let people > tag stuff. > > The question is how do we turn 'tag wisely' into a set of > canonicalisation rules. If we want wisdom in how canonical tags are > made, then we have to codify that wisdom somehow. The point of > canonicalisation is to take out as much ambiguity as we can. You > say: -fonipa implies Latn so don't include it in your tag if you > are being wise. What is the canonicalisation rule for that? > > Yours, > Martin > > > > > Addison > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > > Behalf Of Martin Hosken > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:12 PM > > > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa > > > > > > Dear Addison, > > > > > > > > Not really. The 15924 JAC decided that IPA is a subset of > Latn. > > > So > > > > > saying bru-Thai-fonipa is semantically meaningless. fonipa > only > > > > > makes sense in conjunction with Latn and therefore can > imply it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't necessarily make sense to REQUIRE a tag such as > "en- > > > Latn-fonipa", though. The 'Latn' subtag is superfluous and adds > no > > > additional semantic value. In fact, no language tag adds > semantic > > > value by including a script in the case of fonipa. For example, > > > "zh-yue-Latn-HK-fonipa" is also unnecessarily long. > > > > > > > > There are other similar examples. 'baku1926' implies Latn too. > > > 'monoton' implies 'Grek'. > > > > > > I agree entirely. But there is nothing in the registry or > standard > > > that says this. So I think we need a suppress script for these > > > variants. > > > > > > Yours, > > > Martin > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ltru mailing list > > > Ltru@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 10:32:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7AB3A6993; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:32:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F4F3A6993 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:32:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PHbZ9DJEUVvs for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A82C3A6891 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KH00e-0000JC-KI; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:32:48 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:32:48 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080710173247.GS13157@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807100958p4aaec02dud1f1ea79398b7862@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4AC68@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4AC68@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > For example, 'he', 'iw', and 'Hebr' all have the Description > "Hebrew". Given our new rules, 'iw' would need to acquire a new > Description, Ouch. Can we exempt deprecated subtags from this requirement? Otherwise we will end up with parenthetical notes like "(new)" and "(old)" attached to subtags in situations where ISO 639 has narrowed the denotation of a language *name* and given it a new code element. What's more, UIs shouldn't deal in deprecated subtags anyhow. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Most languages are dramatically underdescribed, and at least one is dramatically overdescribed. Still other languages are simultaneously overdescribed and underdescribed. Welsh pertains to the third category. --Alan King _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 10:38:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C7E3A6891; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B76F3A6891 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.656 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.656 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.057, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DFbYrCIgQOYQ for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B873A685A for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,339,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="8208247" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 17:38:22 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6AHcMNX020517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:38:22 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:22 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:20 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... Thread-Index: AcjisvpsMusTFfHRTrWxh/t/a40PhAAACtGg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACF9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807100958p4aaec02dud1f1ea79398b7862@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4AC68@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080710173247.GS13157@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080710173247.GS13157@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Well... it might actually be a Good Thing to have the deprecated ISO 639-1 junk have a description like "Hebrew (deprecated subtag)" so that people actually look at the Preferred-Value and Deprecated fields and find the more correct value. In this case, 'he' comes before 'iw' in the registry. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:33 AM > To: Phillips, Addison > Cc: Mark Davis; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... > > Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > > For example, 'he', 'iw', and 'Hebr' all have the Description > > "Hebrew". Given our new rules, 'iw' would need to acquire a new > > Description, > > Ouch. Can we exempt deprecated subtags from this requirement? > Otherwise > we will end up with parenthetical notes like "(new)" and "(old)" > attached > to subtags in situations where ISO 639 has narrowed the denotation > of a > language *name* and given it a new code element. > > What's more, UIs shouldn't deal in deprecated subtags anyhow. > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Most languages are dramatically underdescribed, and at least one is > dramatically overdescribed. Still other languages are > simultaneously > overdescribed and underdescribed. Welsh pertains to the third > category. > --Alan King _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 10:38:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C0BD28B797; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24FF3A6911 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.193, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pvtjr1j7aySh for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27EEB3A67A3 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,339,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="74693234" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jul 2008 17:38:48 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6AHcl8l029306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:38:47 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:46 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:38:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: registry comments on deprecated 639-1 values Thread-Index: Acjis82pUPaQtJfKSTCSAn2LFJ05RQ== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACFD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] registry comments on deprecated 639-1 values X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hmm... Doug, I notice this is inconsistent in 4645bis: %% Type: language Subtag: iw Description: Hebrew Added: 2005-10-16 Preferred-Value: he Deprecated: 1989-01-01 Suppress-Script: Hebr %% ... %% Type: language Subtag: jw Description: Javanese Added: 2005-10-16 Preferred-Value: jv Deprecated: 2001-08-13 Comments: published by error in Table 1 of ISO 639:1988 Only one has a comment; the other deprecated values don't. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 10:45:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3463A6891; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:45:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D443A685A for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:45:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.744 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.744 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.145, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ntZPjEdnuGUh for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D073A6891 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:45:39 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:45:37 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:45:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... Thread-Index: AcjiswK8Veq6yJPQSB2aSRscm4VPOAAAPqOg Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807100958p4aaec02dud1f1ea79398b7862@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4AC68@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080710173247.GS13157@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080710173247.GS13157@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org In comments on 3.1.4, I had suggested some wording: ---------------- Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. Also, each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of records of the same type with the following exception: if a particular 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, then one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other records as Preferred-Value. ---------------- Some wording combining preferred value and deprecation seems sensible to me, rather than artificially changing descriptions in the case of two subtags that really are synonymous. Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > John Cowan > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:33 AM > To: Phillips, Addison > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... > > Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > > For example, 'he', 'iw', and 'Hebr' all have the Description > > "Hebrew". Given our new rules, 'iw' would need to acquire a new > > Description, > > Ouch. Can we exempt deprecated subtags from this requirement? > Otherwise > we will end up with parenthetical notes like "(new)" and "(old)" > attached > to subtags in situations where ISO 639 has narrowed the denotation of a > language *name* and given it a new code element. > > What's more, UIs shouldn't deal in deprecated subtags anyhow. > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Most languages are dramatically underdescribed, and at least one is > dramatically overdescribed. Still other languages are simultaneously > overdescribed and underdescribed. Welsh pertains to the third category. > --Alan King > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 10:48:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DC83A68D7; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:48:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD3503A68D7 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.142, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8seZ9AHX5Pa9 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84A23A68B9 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:48:53 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:48:53 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:48:51 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjiEcTtxBju1A+wSv2loHakOrQ2CAAkc18AAAJ6QwAAAeefkA== Message-ID: References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709143459.GB13157@mercury.ccil.org> <20080709214815.32c47908@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091136x325ffcfaoacd1d05a5ce77517@mail.gmail.com> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag 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ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A7D3A692A; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:10:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71713A68EF for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:10:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tiAFvxQO2lp5 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com (ti-out-0910.google.com [209.85.142.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046DA3A6889 for ; 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id h21mr1371943ybd.214.1215713446540; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807101110l36d96f99y2aecd94f0710f825@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:10:46 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD6@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB6452A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB646FB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709214941.1e3fd46a@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64722@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080710121229.52ed53e0@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8DC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080710143629.3b7473dc@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD6@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b7db2bc4e4f1836a Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1719464427==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1719464427== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_22499_32851985.1215713446538" ------=_Part_22499_32851985.1215713446538 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1 Mark On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > I disagree with your characterization of canonicalization. It does not > "eliminate ambiguity". What it does is eliminate otherwise-unimportant > differences between two semantically equivalent values. > > We allow many unwise tags. For example, "tlh-Cyrl-AQ-fonupa" is > well-formed, valid, and canonical. It's also laughable, bringing to mind, as > it does, freezing mythical Star Trek aliens typing on cast off Soviet > typewriters. > > Canonicalization says how to take a tag and make it consistent in terms of > capitalization/format and in terms of modern subtag choice. However, as a > process, it does not disturb or destroy the original meaning of the tag. We > cannot know why the user chose a specific set of subtags---they may have > meaning in her particular context. > > In the post I was responding to, you suggested we add even more information > about tag choice to the registry--in particular, you suggested that we > expand Suppress-Script to other subtag types (which, please note, is NOT > considered as part of canonicalization today). I can't really support doing > this or adding some other mechanism such as a Disallow-Prefix or some-such. > It adds to the overall edifice of what implementers must deal with---at a > time when most implementations are of the "stick 2*8alpha subtags together > with hyphens" variety. The more arcane we require software to implement, the > fewer conforming applications we will have. > > Given that variants are rare and tend to be very highly specialized, > supplying lots of formal requirements for their use and implementation will > make them even less appealing. > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Martin Hosken > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:36 AM > > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa > > > > Dear Addison, > > > > > We have rule #1: Tag Content Wisely, complete with several pages > > of text saying this already. We could go on adding more registry > > cruft until the crack of doom. At some point, we have to let people > > tag stuff. > > > > The question is how do we turn 'tag wisely' into a set of > > canonicalisation rules. If we want wisdom in how canonical tags are > > made, then we have to codify that wisdom somehow. The point of > > canonicalisation is to take out as much ambiguity as we can. You > > say: -fonipa implies Latn so don't include it in your tag if you > > are being wise. What is the canonicalisation rule for that? > > > > Yours, > > Martin > > > > > > > > Addison > > > > > > Addison Phillips > > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > > It is an architecture. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > > > Behalf Of Martin Hosken > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:12 PM > > > > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa > > > > > > > > Dear Addison, > > > > > > > > > > Not really. The 15924 JAC decided that IPA is a subset of > > Latn. > > > > So > > > > > > saying bru-Thai-fonipa is semantically meaningless. fonipa > > only > > > > > > makes sense in conjunction with Latn and therefore can > > imply it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't necessarily make sense to REQUIRE a tag such as > > "en- > > > > Latn-fonipa", though. The 'Latn' subtag is superfluous and adds > > no > > > > additional semantic value. In fact, no language tag adds > > semantic > > > > value by including a script in the case of fonipa. For example, > > > > "zh-yue-Latn-HK-fonipa" is also unnecessarily long. > > > > > > > > > > There are other similar examples. 'baku1926' implies Latn too. > > > > 'monoton' implies 'Grek'. > > > > > > > > I agree entirely. But there is nothing in the registry or > > standard > > > > that says this. So I think we need a suppress script for these > > > > variants. > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > Martin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Ltru mailing list > > > > Ltru@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_22499_32851985.1215713446538 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1

Mark

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
I disagree with your characterization of canonicalization. It does not "eliminate ambiguity". What it does is eliminate otherwise-unimportant differences between two semantically equivalent values.

We allow many unwise tags. For example, "tlh-Cyrl-AQ-fonupa" is well-formed, valid, and canonical. It's also laughable, bringing to mind, as it does, freezing mythical Star Trek aliens typing on cast off Soviet typewriters.

Canonicalization says how to take a tag and make it consistent in terms of capitalization/format and in terms of modern subtag choice. However, as a process, it does not disturb or destroy the original meaning of the tag. We cannot know why the user chose a specific set of subtags---they may have meaning in her particular context.

In the post I was responding to, you suggested we add even more information about tag choice to the registry--in particular, you suggested that we expand Suppress-Script to other subtag types (which, please note, is NOT considered as part of canonicalization today). I can't really support doing this or adding some other mechanism such as a Disallow-Prefix or some-such. It adds to the overall edifice of what implementers must deal with---at a time when most implementations are of the "stick 2*8alpha subtags together with hyphens" variety. The more arcane we require software to implement, the fewer conforming applications we will have.

Given that variants are rare and tend to be very highly specialized, supplying lots of formal requirements for their use and implementation will make them even less appealing.

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Martin Hosken
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:36 AM
> Cc: ltru@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa
>
> Dear Addison,
>
> > We have rule #1: Tag Content Wisely, complete with several pages
> of text saying this already. We could go on adding more registry
> cruft until the crack of doom. At some point, we have to let people
> tag stuff.
>
> The question is how do we turn 'tag wisely' into a set of
> canonicalisation rules. If we want wisdom in how canonical tags are
> made, then we have to codify that wisdom somehow. The point of
> canonicalisation is to take out as much ambiguity as we can. You
> say: -fonipa implies Latn so don't include it in your tag if you
> are being wise. What is the canonicalisation rule for that?
>
> Yours,
> Martin
>
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > Addison Phillips
> > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> >
> > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > It is an architecture.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Martin Hosken
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:12 PM
> > > Cc: ltru@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa
> > >
> > > Dear Addison,
> > >
> > > > > Not really. The 15924 JAC decided that IPA is a subset of
> Latn.
> > > So
> > > > > saying bru-Thai-fonipa is semantically meaningless. fonipa
> only
> > > > > makes sense in conjunction with Latn and therefore can
> imply it.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It doesn't necessarily make sense to REQUIRE a tag such as
> "en-
> > > Latn-fonipa", though. The 'Latn' subtag is superfluous and adds
> no
> > > additional semantic value. In fact, no language tag adds
> semantic
> > > value by including a script in the case of fonipa. For example,
> > > "zh-yue-Latn-HK-fonipa" is also unnecessarily long.
> > > >
> > > > There are other similar examples. 'baku1926' implies Latn too.
> > > 'monoton' implies 'Grek'.
> > >
> > > I agree entirely. But there is nothing in the registry or
> standard
> > > that says this. So I think we need a suppress script for these
> > > variants.
> > >
> > > Yours,
> > > Martin
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_22499_32851985.1215713446538-- --===============1719464427== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1719464427==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 17:50:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 362E83A696B; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:50:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABFC3A696B for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:50:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.514 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.514 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.084, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ncN4ic05Oh5O for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 784D13A6A95 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2631 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2008 00:50:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.39) with ESMTP; 11 Jul 2008 00:50:48 -0000 Message-ID: <2B40561ADA284D8E8D0AF2F4BC4B3924@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:50:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFydGluIEhvc2tlbiA8bWFydGluIHVuZGVyc2NvcmUgaG9za2VuIGF0IHNpbCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3 cm90ZToKCj4gVGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGlzIGhvdyBkbyB3ZSB0dXJuICd0YWcgd2lzZWx5JyBpbnRv IGEgc2V0IG9mIAo+IGNhbm9uaWNhbGlzYXRpb24gcnVsZXMuCgpXZSBkb24ndC4KCj4gSWYgd2Ug d2FudCB3aXNkb20gaW4gaG93IGNhbm9uaWNhbCB0YWdzIGFyZSBtYWRlLCB0aGVuIHdlIGhhdmUg dG8gCj4gY29kaWZ5IHRoYXQgd2lzZG9tIHNvbWVob3cuCgpObywgd2UgZG9uJ3QuICBJdCBoYXMg dG8gZG8gd2l0aCBodW1hbiBqdWRnbWVudC4gIFRoYXQncyB3aGF0IG1ha2VzIGl0IAp3aXNkb20s IG5vdCBqdXN0IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIG9yIGtub3dsZWRnZS4KCkkgbWVhbiwgeWVhaCwgaXQgd291 bGQgYmUgcG9zc2libGUgdG8gYWRkIHNvbWV0aGluZyB0byB0aGUgUmVnaXN0cnkgdGhhdCAKc2F5 cywgaW4gZXNzZW5jZSwgIkRvbid0IHVzZSAnTGF0bicgYW5kICdmb25pcGEnIHRvZ2V0aGVyLCBi ZWNhdXNlIAonZm9uaXBhJyBpbXBsaWVzICdMYXRuJyBhbmQgc28gaXQgd291bGQgYmUgcmVkdW5k YW50LiIgIEFuZCB3ZSBjb3VsZCBkbyAKdGhlIHNhbWUgZm9yICdmb251cGEnIGJlY2F1c2UgdGhl IHNpdHVhdGlvbiBpcyBleGFjdGx5IHRoZSBzYW1lLiAgQW5kIAp0aGVuIHdlIGNvdWxkIGRlY2lk ZSB0byBhZGQgYSBzaW1pbGFyIHJ1bGUgZm9yIEdyZWVubGFuZGljLCBhbmQgc28gb24uCgpCdXQg d2UgaGF2ZW4ndCBzb2x2ZWQgYW55IEFjdHVhbCBQcm9ibGVtcywgaW4gdGhlIHNlbnNlIHRoYXQg cHV0dGluZyAKc2NyaXB0IHN1YnRhZ3MgYmVmb3JlIHJlZ2lvbiBzdWJ0YWdzIHdhcyBzaG93biB0 byBiZSBhbiBBY3R1YWwgUHJvYmxlbSAKZm9yIGJyYWluLWRhbWFnZWQgcGFyc2VycyB3cml0dGVu IGJ5IHBlb3BsZSB3aG8gbWlzdW5kZXJzdG9vZCBSRkMgCjE3NjYvMzA2Ni4gIEFsbCB3ZSd2ZSBz b2x2ZWQgaXMgYSB0aGVvcmV0aWNhbCBwcm9ibGVtIHRoYXQgYSBwYXJzZXIgCm1pZ2h0IGZhaWwg dG8gbWF0Y2ggdGFncyB0aGF0IGFyZW4ndCBleGFjdGx5IGVxdWl2YWxlbnQgKGkuZS4gCiJlbi1M YXRuLWZvbmlwYSIgaXMgbm90IGV4YWN0bHkgZXF1aXZhbGVudCB0byAiZW4tZm9uaXBhIiBzbyB3 ZSBoYXZlIHRvIApjYW5vbmljYWxpemUgb25lIHRvIHRoZSBvdGhlcikuICBTdWNoIGEgcGFyc2Vy IHdvdWxkIGJlIGJyYWluLWRlYWQsIG5vdCAKanVzdCAtZGFtYWdlZCwgYW5kIHRoZXJlJ3Mgbm8g bmVlZCB0byB0cnkgdG8gY2F0ZXIgdG8gc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgCnRoYXQuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3 ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0 dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9s dHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 18:07:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF23E3A696B; 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11 Jul 2008 01:07:23 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:07:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IC0tCj4gcGFydGljdWxhciBsYW5ndWFnZS4gRWFjaCAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIGZpZWxkIE1VU1Qg YmUgdW5pcXVlIGZvciBhIAo+IGdpdmVuIHJlY29yZCB0eXBlLiAodW5pcXVlbmVzcyB3aWxsIHBy b2JhYmx5IGJlIGJyb2FkZW5lZCBwZW5kaW5nIAo+IG90aGVyIGRpc2N1c3Npb24pCj4gLS0KPgo+ IFRoYXQgZG9lcyBzYXkgImZvciBhIGdpdmVuIHJlY29yZCAqdHlwZSoiLiBJIGNhbid0IHNlZSB1 cyBicm9hZGVuaW5nIAo+IHVuaXF1ZW5lc3MgdG8gdGhlIHdob2xlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5Lgo+Cj4gRm9y IGV4YW1wbGUsICdoZScsICdpdycsIGFuZCAnSGVicicgYWxsIGhhdmUgdGhlIERlc2NyaXB0aW9u ICJIZWJyZXciLgoKTm8sIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIG5lZWQgdG8gZW5mb3JjZSB1bmlxdWVuZXNzIGFj cm9zcyByZWNvcmQgdHlwZXMuICBUaGVyZSAKaXMgYSBiaWcgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSBJTUhPIGJldHdl ZW4gaGF2aW5nIHR3byBsYW5ndWFnZXMgaW4gdGhlIFJlZ2lzdHJ5IApjYWxsZWQgQXdhLCBzdWNo IHRoYXQgaXQgaXMgaW1wb3NzaWJsZSB0byB0ZWxsIHdoaWNoIHN1YnRhZyB0byB1c2UgKG9uZSAK QXdhIGlzIHNwb2tlbiBpbiBDaGluYSwgdGhlIG90aGVyIGluIFBhcHVhIE5ldyBHdWluZWEpLCBh bmQgaGF2aW5nIGEgCmxhbmd1YWdlIGFuZCBhIHNjcmlwdCBib3RoIGNhbGxlZCBIZWJyZXcuICBO b2JvZHkgd2hvIGtub3dzIGhvdyB0byB1c2UgCnRoZSBSZWdpc3RyeSBjb3JyZWN0bHkgKFN0ZXAg MTogbG9vayBhdCB0aGUgVHlwZSBmaWVsZCkgc2hvdWxkIGNvbmZ1c2UgCnRoZXNlIHR3by4KCj4g R2l2ZW4gb3VyIG5ldyBydWxlcywgJ2l3JyB3b3VsZCBuZWVkIHRvIGFjcXVpcmUgYSBuZXcgRGVz Y3JpcHRpb24sIGJ1dCAKPiBJIGRvbid0IHNlZSBmb3JjaW5nICdIZWJyJyB0byBoYXZlIGEgRGVz Y3JpcHRpb24gb2YgIkhlYnJldyAoc2NyaXB0KSIgCj4gYXMgbmVjZXNzYXJ5LiBEaXR0byAnYXIn IGFuZCAnQXJhYictLS1hbmQgSSdtIHN1cmUgbW9yZSB0aGF0IEkgZG9uJ3QgCj4ga25vdyBvZmYg aGFuZC4KCkFnYWluIEkgZGlkbid0IHJlYWQgQWRkaXNvbidzIGRyYWZ0IGZ1bGx5LiAgRGVwcmVj YXRlZCBzdWJ0YWdzIHNob3VsZCAKbm90IGJlIHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIHVuaXF1ZW5lc3MgY29uc3Ry YWludHMsIGNlcnRhaW5seSBub3QgZGVwcmVjYXRlZCAKc3VidGFncyB0aGF0IGhhdmUgYSBQcmVm ZXJyZWQtVmFsdWUuICBXaGlsZSB0aGVyZSBpcyBib3VuZCB0byBiZSAKY29uZnVzaW9uIGJldHdl ZW4gQXdhIChhd2IpIGFuZCBBd2EgKHZ3YSkgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGV5IG1lYW4gdHdvIApkaWZmZXJl bnQgdGhpbmdzLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBjb25mdXNpb24gYmV0d2VlbiBIZWJyZXcgKGhlKSBhbmQg SGVicmV3IAooaXcpIHByZWNpc2VseSBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZXkgbWVhbiB0aGUgc2FtZSB0aGluZywg YW5kIHRvIHByb3ZlIHRoaXMsIG9uZSAKaGFzIGEgUHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlIG9mIHRoZSBvdGhl ci4KClBsZWFzZSBlZGl0IFNlY3Rpb24gMy4xLjQgKEkgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyBpcyB0aGUgb25seSBh ZmZlY3RlZCBwYXNzYWdlKSB0byAKZXhjbHVkZSBkZXByZWNhdGVkIHN1YnRhZ3MgZnJvbSB0aGUg cHJvYmxlbSBzcGFjZS4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAg KiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3 MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2 ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QK THRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 18:22:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BCD53A6A88; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:22:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4865A3A6AA6 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:22:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ID3W022Q+5z8 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F873A6A88 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so1586828ywj.49 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:23:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=djm/rPt+oY+QqRiIsDiMfQVJOVEwPAHUSke2/22VOAQ=; b=GeCg9VXz5B49mVgX6dwWp5x1Up5if0svxHV3n8OgvEX4Yu/DuFZeBwM/nMebz+YK/x UvCT5TPbsAo67PAChiJ7rJ3oO9PVwbxyiJGOmOUb4as1lml/YnfR0yn7rMPVgLoyD6yB cbem113I5yyjpIzQ8mQWhsWDTdhv0ckuOxu8Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=SXWzMlW/LAu77WxvWUF6TBK52xE/34oISwmr1oalPPEEI6a9Vac1D5UZwuaXJZORrl P6AhXHfMwMTHRELygX97s9Utp7mf/KJJGvjW1qtarRnYP/4mCmwAgpzV/Aqih8+GX5SL UsFDsBGmZ5dxBnXcUsRKABYS6EOSraQTgAN6E= Received: by 10.150.154.6 with SMTP id b6mr14962432ybe.92.1215739386639; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807101823h8d6814t83d412ffba475a60@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:23:06 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: ffbe8ba35796123b Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1725267712==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 20:19:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64EF33A69D9; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:19:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3FD53A691A for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:19:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.627 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.627 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.972, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V27fL9pS8VfI for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:19:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FCA3A69D9 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:19:39 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,342,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="85698499" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 03:19:53 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6B3JoKC027441; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 03:19:50 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:19:50 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:19:49 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... Thread-Index: Acji8n8aXyR6W0LQQT6FjofEdT2cqAAEeDjg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4B4A8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > Given our new rules, 'iw' would need to acquire a new Description, > but > > I don't see forcing 'Hebr' to have a Description of "Hebrew > (script)" > > as necessary. Ditto 'ar' and 'Arab'---and I'm sure more that I > don't > > know off hand. > > Again I didn't read Addison's draft fully. Deprecated subtags > should > not be part of the uniqueness constraints, certainly not deprecated > subtags that have a Preferred-Value. Yes, but... Not all subtags start life deprecated. The uniqueness constraint, quite reasonably, tries to fit into a single, declarative sentence: 'Description' fields assigned to record of any specific type ('language', 'extlang', 'script', and so on) MUST be unique within that given record type so that users do not become confused about which subtag to use. > While there is bound to be > confusion between Awa (awb) and Awa (vwa) because they mean two > different things, there is no confusion between Hebrew (he) and > Hebrew > (iw) precisely because they mean the same thing, and to prove this, > one > has a Preferred-Value of the other. Agreed. I guess I should add Even More Text allowing some exceptions to the no duplicates rule. > > Please edit Section 3.1.4 (I think this is the only affected > passage) to > exclude deprecated subtags from the problem space. No, at least Section 3.5 is also affected. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 20:57:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E390F3A6A7E; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:57:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D98F3A6A7E for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:57:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YocS3fOl69Y2 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A2BAA3A68C8 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29498 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2008 03:58:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (71.229.245.230) by smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.33) with ESMTP; 11 Jul 2008 03:58:03 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4B4A8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:58:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ PiBBZ2FpbiBJIGRpZG4ndCByZWFkIEFkZGlzb24ncyBkcmFmdCBmdWxseS4gIERlcHJlY2F0ZWQg c3VidGFncyBzaG91bGQgCj4+IG5vdCBiZSBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSB1bmlxdWVuZXNzIGNvbnN0cmFp bnRzLCBjZXJ0YWlubHkgbm90IGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgCj4+IHN1YnRhZ3MgdGhhdCBoYXZlIGEgUHJl ZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlLgo+Cj4gWWVzLCBidXQuLi4KPgo+IE5vdCBhbGwgc3VidGFncyBzdGFydCBs aWZlIGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQuCgpDZXJ0YWlubHkgdHJ1ZS4gIERlcHJlY2F0aW9uIG9mIGEgc3VidGFn IHRoYXQgb25jZSBjYXVzZWQgYSB1bmlxdWVuZXNzIApwcm9ibGVtIG1pZ2h0IG1ha2UgdGhlIHBy b2JsZW0gZ28gYXdheS4gIFNpbmNlIGlldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIGhhcyB0aGUgCnBvd2VyIHRvIGFk ZCwgY2hhbmdlLCBvciBkZWxldGUgRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gZmllbGRzIChwcm92aWRlZCB0aGV5IGFy ZSAKcmVzcG9uc2libGUgYWJvdXQgaXQ7IHNlZSBkcmFmdC00NjQ2YmlzLTE2IMKnMy40IGl0ZW0g MyksIHRoZXkgY291bGQgCmRlY2lkZSB0byB0YWtlIGEgRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gdGhhdCB3YXMgY2hh bmdlZCB0byBlbmZvcmNlIHVuaXF1ZW5lc3MgYW5kIApyZXZlcnQgaXQgdG8gaXRzIG9yaWdpbmFs IElTTyBuYW1lIHVwb24gZGVwcmVjYXRpb24uICBCZXN0IG9mIGFsbCwgdGhpcyAKaXMgYXV0aG9y aXplZCBieSBleGlzdGluZyB0ZXh0LCBzbyB5b3UgZG9uJ3QgaGF2ZSB0byBhZGQgYW55dGhpbmcu Cgo+IFRoZSB1bmlxdWVuZXNzIGNvbnN0cmFpbnQsIHF1aXRlIHJlYXNvbmFibHksIHRyaWVzIHRv IGZpdCBpbnRvIGEgCj4gc2luZ2xlLCBkZWNsYXJhdGl2ZSBzZW50ZW5jZToKPgo+ICAnRGVzY3Jp cHRpb24nIGZpZWxkcyBhc3NpZ25lZCB0byByZWNvcmQgb2YgYW55IHNwZWNpZmljIHR5cGUgCj4g KCdsYW5ndWFnZScsICdleHRsYW5nJywgJ3NjcmlwdCcsIGFuZCBzbyBvbikgIE1VU1QgYmUgdW5p cXVlIHdpdGhpbiAKPiB0aGF0IGdpdmVuIHJlY29yZCB0eXBlIHNvIHRoYXQgdXNlcnMgZG8gbm90 IGJlY29tZSBjb25mdXNlZCBhYm91dCAKPiB3aGljaCBzdWJ0YWcgdG8gdXNlLgoKSSBrbm93IHRo ZSB0ZXh0IGlzIHRvbyBsb25nIGFscmVhZHksIGJ1dCB5b3UgcmVhbGx5IG5lZWQgdG8gYWRkICJh IiAKYWZ0ZXIgImFzc2lnbmVkIHRvIi4gIDotKQoKPj4gV2hpbGUgdGhlcmUgaXMgYm91bmQgdG8g YmUgY29uZnVzaW9uIGJldHdlZW4gQXdhIChhd2IpIGFuZCBBd2EgKHZ3YSkgCj4+IGJlY2F1c2Ug dGhleSBtZWFuIHR3byBkaWZmZXJlbnQgdGhpbmdzLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBjb25mdXNpb24gYmV0 d2VlbiAKPj4gSGVicmV3IChoZSkgYW5kIEhlYnJldyAoaXcpIHByZWNpc2VseSBiZWNhdXNlIHRo ZXkgbWVhbiB0aGUgc2FtZSAKPj4gdGhpbmcsIGFuZCB0byBwcm92ZSB0aGlzLCBvbmUgaGFzIGEg UHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlIG9mIHRoZSBvdGhlci4KPgo+IEFncmVlZC4gSSBndWVzcyBJIHNob3Vs ZCBhZGQgRXZlbiBNb3JlIFRleHQgYWxsb3dpbmcgc29tZSBleGNlcHRpb25zIAo+IHRvIHRoZSBu byBkdXBsaWNhdGVzIHJ1bGUuCgpJJ20gc2Vuc2l0aXZlIHRvIHRoZSBsZW5ndGggcHJvYmxlbS4g IFRoZSBsb25nZXIgdGhlIHRleHQgaXMsIHRoZSBoYXJkZXIgCml0IHdpbGwgYmUgdG8gYXNzdW1l IHRoYXQgdGFnIHVzZXJzIGhhdmUgcmVhZCBpdC4gIEkgaG9wZSB3ZSBjYW4gcmVzb2x2ZSAKdGhp cyBieSBzaW1wbHkgbWFraW5nIGl0ICJhc3NpZ25lZCB0byBhIG5vbi1kZXByZWNhdGVkIHJlY29y ZCBvZiBhbnkgCnNwZWNpZmljIHR5cGUiIGFuZCBob3BpbmcgaXQgaXNuJ3QgbmVjZXNzYXJ5IHRv IGV4cGxhaW4gaW4gdGhlIGVuc3VpbmcgCnRleHQgd2h5IGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgc3VidGFncyBhcmUg ZXhlbXB0LgoKPj4gUGxlYXNlIGVkaXQgU2VjdGlvbiAzLjEuNCAoSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGlzIHRo ZSBvbmx5IGFmZmVjdGVkIHBhc3NhZ2UpIAo+PiB0byBleGNsdWRlIGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgc3VidGFn cyBmcm9tIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIHNwYWNlLgo+Cj4gTm8sIGF0IGxlYXN0IFNlY3Rpb24gMy41IGlz IGFsc28gYWZmZWN0ZWQuCgpJIGd1ZXNzIGl0J3Mgbm90IGV2ZW4gc2FmZSB0byBhc3N1bWUgKkkn dmUqIHJlYWQgaXQuICBBcnJnZ2guCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRv LCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0 cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8v d3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGlu ZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 21:06:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE323A693C; 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11 Jul 2008 04:06:50 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:06:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Latn and fonipa X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IFdlIGFsbG93IG1hbnkgdW53aXNlIHRhZ3MuIEZvciBleGFtcGxlLCAidGxoLUN5cmwtQVEtZm9u dXBhIiBpcyAKPiB3ZWxsLWZvcm1lZCwgdmFsaWQsIGFuZCBjYW5vbmljYWwuIEl0J3MgYWxzbyBs YXVnaGFibGUsIGJyaW5naW5nIHRvIAo+IG1pbmQsIGFzIGl0IGRvZXMsIGZyZWV6aW5nIG15dGhp Y2FsIFN0YXIgVHJlayBhbGllbnMgdHlwaW5nIG9uIGNhc3QgCj4gb2ZmIFNvdmlldCB0eXBld3Jp dGVycy4KCkluIElQQSwgbm8gbGVzcywgd2hpY2ggaXMgcHJldHR5IGhhcmQgdG8gZG8gb24gYSBD eXJpbGxpYyB0eXBld3JpdGVyLgoKTmV2ZXJ0aGVsZXNzLCBBZGRpc29uJ3MgcG9pbnQgaXMgd2Vs bCB0YWtlbjogdGhlIHRhZyBpcyByaWRpY3Vsb3VzIGJ1dCAKdmFsaWQsIGFuZCBpdCBpc24ndCB3 b3J0aCBpdCB0byB0cnkgdG8gcHJvaGliaXQgZXZlcnkgcG9zc2libGUgCnJpZGljdWxvdXMsIG9y IGV2ZW4gaW5hcHByb3ByaWF0ZSwgdGFnLgoKPiBHaXZlbiB0aGF0IHZhcmlhbnRzIGFyZSByYXJl IGFuZCB0ZW5kIHRvIGJlIHZlcnkgaGlnaGx5IHNwZWNpYWxpemVkLCAKPiBzdXBwbHlpbmcgbG90 cyBvZiBmb3JtYWwgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGZvciB0aGVpciB1c2UgYW5kIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9u IAo+IHdpbGwgbWFrZSB0aGVtIGV2ZW4gbGVzcyBhcHBlYWxpbmcuCgpUcnVlOyB0aGF0J3Mgd2hh dCBraWxsZWQgZXh0ZW5zaW9ucy4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3JhZG8s IFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRw Oi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93 d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 21:10:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19E73A6AD6; 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11 Jul 2008 04:10:15 -0000 Message-ID: <97870941C7424249B7BF1E9626087523@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:10:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IFdlbGwuLi4gaXQgbWlnaHQgYWN0dWFsbHkgYmUgYSBHb29kIFRoaW5nIHRvIGhhdmUgdGhlIGRl cHJlY2F0ZWQgSVNPIAo+IDYzOS0xIGp1bmsgaGF2ZSBhIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9uIGxpa2UgIkhlYnJl dyAoZGVwcmVjYXRlZCBzdWJ0YWcpIiBzbyAKPiB0aGF0IHBlb3BsZSBhY3R1YWxseSBsb29rIGF0 IHRoZSBQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWUgYW5kIERlcHJlY2F0ZWQgZmllbGRzIAo+IGFuZCBmaW5kIHRo ZSBtb3JlIGNvcnJlY3QgdmFsdWUuIEluIHRoaXMgY2FzZSwgJ2hlJyBjb21lcyBiZWZvcmUgJ2l3 JyAKPiBpbiB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkuCgpJIHRoaW5rIGl0J3MgYSBCYWQgVGhpbmcgdG8gYXNrIHRo ZSBEZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBmaWVsZCB0byBjYXJyeSB0aGlzIAptZXRhLWluZm9ybWF0aW9uLiAgUGVv cGxlIHNob3VsZCBsb29rIGF0IHRoZSBQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWUgYW5kIApEZXByZWNhdGVkIGZp ZWxkcyB3aXRob3V0IHRoaXMgaGludC4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIEFydmFkYSwgQ29sb3Jh ZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpo dHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6 Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoK X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 21:32:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B42A3A6AF3; 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11 Jul 2008 04:32:36 -0000 Message-ID: <6D531C83DE7F4FF6A8DE7242F53250E8@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:32:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] registry comments on deprecated 639-1 values X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEhtbS4uLiBEb3VnLCBJIG5vdGljZSB0aGlzIGlzIGluY29uc2lzdGVudCBpbiA0NjQ1YmlzOgo+ Cj4gJSUKPiBUeXBlOiBsYW5ndWFnZQo+IFN1YnRhZzogaXcKPiBEZXNjcmlwdGlvbjogSGVicmV3 Cj4gQWRkZWQ6IDIwMDUtMTAtMTYKPiBQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWU6IGhlCj4gRGVwcmVjYXRlZDog MTk4OS0wMS0wMQo+IFN1cHByZXNzLVNjcmlwdDogSGVicgo+ICUlCj4KPiAuLi4KPgo+ICUlCj4g VHlwZTogbGFuZ3VhZ2UKPiBTdWJ0YWc6IGp3Cj4gRGVzY3JpcHRpb246IEphdmFuZXNlCj4gQWRk ZWQ6IDIwMDUtMTAtMTYKPiBQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWU6IGp2Cj4gRGVwcmVjYXRlZDogMjAwMS0w OC0xMwo+IENvbW1lbnRzOiBwdWJsaXNoZWQgYnkgZXJyb3IgaW4gVGFibGUgMSBvZiBJU08gNjM5 OjE5ODgKPgo+IE9ubHkgb25lIGhhcyBhIGNvbW1lbnQ7IHRoZSBvdGhlciBkZXByZWNhdGVkIHZh bHVlcyBkb24ndC4KClNvbWVvbmUgKG5vIG5hbWVzLCBidXQgc3RpbGwgYW4gYWN0aXZlIHBhcnRp Y2lwYW50IGluIExUUlUpIHN1Z2dlc3RlZCAKYWRkaW5nIHRoYXQgY29tbWVudCB0byAnancnIGJh Y2sgaW4gSmFudWFyeSAyMDA1LgoKVGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gcmVxdWlyZW1lbnQgdGhhdCBkZXByZWNh dGVkIHN1YnRhZ3MgaGF2ZSBhIGNvbW1lbnQgCmV4cGxhaW5pbmcgd2h5IHRoZXkgd2VyZSBkZXBy ZWNhdGVkLiAgSSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IHdlIGFuZCBpZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAKaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGlu Y29uc2lzdGVudCBpbiBhZGRpbmcgc29tZSBhbmQgbm90IG90aGVycywgYnV0IHdoZW4gdGFsa2lu ZyAKYWJvdXQgb25lLWF0LWEtdGltZSBjb21tZW50cyBpbiB0aGUgTFNSLCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgbm90 IGV4cGVjdCAKY29uc2lzdGVuY3kuICBUaGUgb25seSB0aW1lIHdlIGhhZCBhbnkgY29uc2lzdGVu Y3kgaW4gY29tbWVudHMgd2FzIHdpdGggCnRob3NlIGhvcnJpZCBsaXR0bGUgY29udGVudC1mcmVl IHJlbWFya3Mgd2UgYXR0YWNoZWQgdG8gZGVwcmVjYXRlZCAKZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCB0YWdzIGlu IHRoZSAzMDY2YmlzIGRheXM6CgolJQpUeXBlOiBncmFuZGZhdGhlcmVkClRhZzogYXJ0LWxvamJh bgpEZXNjcmlwdGlvbjogTG9qYmFuCkFkZGVkOiAyMDAxLTExLTExClByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZTog amJvCkRlcHJlY2F0ZWQ6IDIwMDMtMDktMDIKQ29tbWVudHM6IHJlcGxhY2VkIGJ5IElTTyBjb2Rl IGpibwolJQoKSSdtIGdsYWQgdG8gaGF2ZSBsZWQgdGhlIGVmZm9ydCB0byBnZXQgcmlkIG9mIHRo b3NlLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgQXJ2YWRhLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0 NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3Jn L2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5v L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYu b3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 21:52:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE6428B23E; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:52:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABCF3A6AD1 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:52:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pyNNSgmdj7Nl for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1A03A635F for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6B4r3wF022774 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:53:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 73bd_3e9dbb6c_4f05_11dd_9f26_0014221f2a2d; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:53:03 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:48925) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:47:06 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080711132838.04f02390@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:29:23 +0900 To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.a mazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 13:47 08/07/10, Phillips, Addison wrote: >After editing the stuff about unique Description fields, I checked Section >3.5 (registration procedure) to ensure consistency. Some edits resulted. >2. I added some text about prefixless variants, since we've never >recognized them formally. The text is: > >Requests to add a 'Prefix' to a variant subtag that has no current >prefix will also probably be rejected. Variants with no prefix are >potentially useful with many or even all languages. Adding one or more >Prefix fields would potentially harmful to the use of the variant. Please add a 'be' before or after 'potentially', thanks. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 21:55:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A818D3A6AE0; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738E63A6AD6 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TDE+ocah-ahH for ; 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charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSdtIG1vdmluZyBhZ2FpbiB0aGlzIHdlZWtlbmQgKGFib3V0IDcgbWlsZXMvMTIga20pIGFuZCBt YXkgYmUgd2l0aG91dCAKcGVyc29uYWwgZS1tYWlsIGZvciBhIGZldyBkYXlzLCBzbyB0aGlzIHdv dWxkIGJlIGFuIGV4Y2VsbGVudCB0aW1lIHRvIApyYW0gdGhyb3VnaCBzb21lIG5ldyBwcm9wb3Nh bHMgdGhhdCBldmVyeW9uZSBrbm93cyBJJ2xsIGhhdGUuICBKdXN0IApraWRkaW5nIGFib3V0IHRo YXQgbGFzdCBiaXQuICBJIGhvcGUuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBBcnZhZGEsIENvbG9yYWRv LCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0 cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8v d3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGlu ZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 23:55:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882A228C106; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:55:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA7B328C106 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:55:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.56 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DT5+YvWJpn2o for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B11228C0F7 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.23]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6B6tVvx000020 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:55:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 464a_5a5bfb64_4f16_11dd_9717_001d0969ab06; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:55:31 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:41071) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:49:34 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080711140340.03864ef8@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:12:28 +0900 To: "Phillips, Addison" , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.a mazon.com> References: <1D13F754B8A645A8820DD86C713CC472@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org >> On Behalf Of Doug Ewell >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:40 PM >> But as I said, we are really stretching the limits of brass handle >> polishing at this point. [chair hat on] I agree that we should try to concentrate on our main issues. Reading our charter at http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html, I see for example the following: The working group will clarify text where necessary. It may also make adjustments to the registration process and the form of the registry if this is deemed appropriate based on ongoing registration and operational experience. These adjustments and clarifications are not expected to delay the progress of the work. Please note in particular "not expected to delay" and "based on ongoing registration and operational experience". I suggest that if further operational experience after RFC 4646bis shows that further tweaks may be needed, somebody can then propose the creation of a new LTRU WG. Regards, Martin. >> Look at the scenario we have to dream up >> for >> this to be a problem: two or more prefixless variants in a single >> tag, >> where the meanings of the two variants interact in such a way that >> order >> is important, AND we need to make sure a search engine or other >> matching >> engine can match this tag properly when taking BOTH prefixless >> variants >> into account. It's almost like we're trying to make work for >> ourselves. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 07:07:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A8A3A6A37; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:07:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39CEE3A6AD3 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:07:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C1P+VpleCg-r for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F187A3A67A4 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:07:25 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:07:25 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Martin Duerst , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:07:21 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjjIyLM7TJ9TBpSQxmFMZ88EIx4mgAOoEfQ Message-ID: References: <1D13F754B8A645A8820DD86C713CC472@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080711140340.03864ef8@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080711140340.03864ef8@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org +1 I submitted a bunch of mostly-editorial comments this week, although there were a couple of technical discussions that resulted (descriptions, canonicalization). I hadn't read through a draft in a long while, and I did that now because I wanted to get a handle on which parts of the document are at issue in resolving the open issues around extlang, canonicalization, deprecation and preferred-value. I see that as the last key issue, as far as I recall, and I'd like to see us settle that and wrap up. This month. There will always be things that could be improved, but we need to accept that 4646bis will not be perfect and get it out so that people can start using it. However we resolve that last key issue, it will be good enough to be usable -- maybe a little awkward for some of us at times, but still workable. Let's get this done. This month. I'm hoping Addison will have draft 17 complete over the weekend with revisions from this week's comments incorporated, and that we can close those issues and work through the last elephant next week. Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Martin Duerst > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:12 PM > To: Phillips, Addison; Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > >> On Behalf Of Doug Ewell > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:40 PM > > >> But as I said, we are really stretching the limits of brass handle > >> polishing at this point. > > [chair hat on] > I agree that we should try to concentrate on our main issues. > Reading our charter at > http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html, > > I see for example the following: > The working group will clarify text where necessary. It may also > make adjustments to the registration process and the form of the > registry if this is deemed appropriate based on ongoing registration > and operational experience. These adjustments and clarifications > are not expected to delay the progress of the work. > > Please note in particular "not expected to delay" and > "based on ongoing registration and operational experience". > > I suggest that if further operational experience after RFC 4646bis > shows that further tweaks may be needed, somebody can then propose > the creation of a new LTRU WG. > > Regards, Martin. > > >> Look at the scenario we have to dream up > >> for > >> this to be a problem: two or more prefixless variants in a single > >> tag, > >> where the meanings of the two variants interact in such a way that > >> order > >> is important, AND we need to make sure a search engine or other > >> matching > >> engine can match this tag properly when taking BOTH prefixless > >> variants > >> into account. It's almost like we're trying to make work for > >> ourselves. > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp > mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 10:07:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658A23A692B; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4AB3A692B for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:07:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.354, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lms0xIpx5wAN for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0DE3A68DF for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:07:55 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,346,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="8731163" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 17:08:12 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BH8BTF010239 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:08:12 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:08:11 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:07:46 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , Martin Duerst , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:08:09 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjjIyLM7TJ9TBpSQxmFMZ88EIx4mgAOoEfQAAaoW0A= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A38B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <1D13F754B8A645A8820DD86C713CC472@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4A8BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080711140340.03864ef8@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I agree with getting this done. Soon. I wish the co-chairs would help us resolve the big consensus issues ahead of a last call, if possible. We've had proposals galore. We need to achieve some closure on the approach and handling of extlangs in particular. In practical terms, I will finish incorporating comments from the list as quickly as possible and complete a full review/edit of my own in order to submit draft-17 shortly (i.e. today or tomorrow). Following this, we should be able to close out any remaining issues. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 7:07 AM > To: Martin Duerst; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > +1 > > I submitted a bunch of mostly-editorial comments this week, > although there were a couple of technical discussions that resulted > (descriptions, canonicalization). I hadn't read through a draft in > a long while, and I did that now because I wanted to get a handle > on which parts of the document are at issue in resolving the open > issues around extlang, canonicalization, deprecation and preferred- > value. I see that as the last key issue, as far as I recall, and > I'd like to see us settle that and wrap up. This month. There will > always be things that could be improved, but we need to accept that > 4646bis will not be perfect and get it out so that people can start > using it. However we resolve that last key issue, it will be good > enough to be usable -- maybe a little awkward for some of us at > times, but still workable. > > Let's get this done. This month. > > I'm hoping Addison will have draft 17 complete over the weekend > with revisions from this week's comments incorporated, and that we > can close those issues and work through the last elephant next week. > > > Peter > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of > > Martin Duerst > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:12 PM > > To: Phillips, Addison; Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > > > >> On Behalf Of Doug Ewell > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:40 PM > > > > >> But as I said, we are really stretching the limits of brass > handle > > >> polishing at this point. > > > > [chair hat on] > > I agree that we should try to concentrate on our main issues. > > Reading our charter at > > http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html, > > > > I see for example the following: > > The working group will clarify text where necessary. It may also > > make adjustments to the registration process and the form of the > > registry if this is deemed appropriate based on ongoing > registration > > and operational experience. These adjustments and clarifications > > are not expected to delay the progress of the work. > > > > Please note in particular "not expected to delay" and > > "based on ongoing registration and operational experience". > > > > I suggest that if further operational experience after RFC > 4646bis > > shows that further tweaks may be needed, somebody can then > propose > > the creation of a new LTRU WG. > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > >> Look at the scenario we have to dream up > > >> for > > >> this to be a problem: two or more prefixless variants in a > single > > >> tag, > > >> where the meanings of the two variants interact in such a way > that > > >> order > > >> is important, AND we need to make sure a search engine or > other > > >> matching > > >> engine can match this tag properly when taking BOTH prefixless > > >> variants > > >> into account. It's almost like we're trying to make work for > > >> ourselves. > > > > > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin > University > > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp > > mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 10:18:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BA83A6B80; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709323A6B7E for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.779 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.779 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Qmwv0XhBLKF for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C7113A6B80 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:10 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,346,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="75098869" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 17:18:28 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BHIORQ032215 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:18:25 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:24 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:23 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except by prior agreement) Thread-Index: AcjhgrJkMPOdx795Rx6MXAr5OAC3mwB9zkwg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A3B1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except by prior agreement) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) The suggested revision is "okay", but didn't convey exactly what we meant either, I think. I rewrote the paragraph and modified the example that followed (which Peter did not quote) as follows: In addition to private-use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use subtags derived from the private use codes assigned by underlying standards. These subtags are valid for use in forming language tags and convey more information than the 'x-' private-use sequences because they are linked to the language tag's inherent structure. For example, the region subtags 'AA', 'ZZ', and in the ranges 'QM'-'QZ' and 'XA'-'XZ' (derived from the ISO 3166-1 private use codes) can be used to form a language tag. A tag such as "zh-Hans-XQ" conveys a great deal of public, interchangeable information about the language material (that it is Chinese in the simplified Chinese script and is suitable for some geographic region 'XQ'). While the precise geographic region is not known outside of private agreement, the tag conveys far more information than an opaque tag such as "x-somelang" or even "zh-Hans-x-xq" (where the 'xq' subtag's meaning is entirely ambiguous). Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:15 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except > by prior agreement) > > The current draft has this in Section 4.6: > > ------------ > Subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a specific private > use meaning convey more information that a purely private use tag > prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. > ------------ > > Strictly speaking, that's not true: a private-use *subtag* conveys > *no* information (except by private convention -- which is clearly > not assumed in this statement), and so cannot convey more > information than anything else. > > Suggested revision: > > ------------ > Tags created using subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a > specific private use meaning can convey more information that a > purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. > ------------ > > > > Also, this wording is a bit problematic: > > ------------ > However, in some cases content tagged with private use subtags MAY > interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable > manner compared to tags that use opaque, privately defined subtags, > so the choice of the best approach sometimes depends on the > particular domain in question. > ------------ > > Tags that use private-use subtags vs. tags that use opaque, > privately-defined subtags? Those sound the same. > > Suggested revision: > > ------------ > However, in some cases content tagged with private-use subtags MAY > interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable > manner compared to tags that use opaque, private-use subtag > sequences prefixed by 'x', so the choice of the best approach > sometimes depends on the particular domain in question. > ------------ > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 10:18:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F1F28C236; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4D928C236 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.768 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.768 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.169, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q6L+oHVb4+ck for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DA928C1B5 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:54 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,346,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="75099183" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 17:19:13 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BHJA0I017061 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:19:10 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:19:10 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:19:09 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes Thread-Index: AcjhVLIAxbxu9xR1Q4+4G1ugFRPCdgAKV/3QAABNAZAAAW2fkAABciIAAHvcc9A= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A3B5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB644F2@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64522@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) DONE. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:14 PM > To: Phillips, Addison; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: 4.4.1: limited buffer sizes > > > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > > > > Hence: > > > > Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes > for > > language tags MUST allow for language tags of at least > > 35 characters. Note that RFC 4646 > > recommended a field size of 42 characters... > > Small suggested revision: "...recommended a minimum field size of > 42 characters..." > > > > Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 10:20:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8983A6B80; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:20:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9133A6B80 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:20:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.758 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.758 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.159, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WyeU6LxVqNL2 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACBA23A6B7E for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:20:05 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,346,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="75099524" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 17:20:23 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BHKMc5004507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:20:22 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:20:01 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:19:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in 4645 Thread-Index: AcjgYuoz2jX3TjXMQKW1+zzHaTij5gAG/OqAAEQxvdAAeqwoEA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A3B8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA9422D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in 4645 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) DONE Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:49 PM > To: Phillips, Addison; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in > 4645 > > Can I suggest, then, that you provide a more specific reference: > "... listed as eligible for registration in Section 4 of [RFC > 4645]..." > > > Peter > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 3:19 PM > > To: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: RE: 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for registration in > 4645 > > > > It is still valid. The reference in question in RFC 4645 is: > > > > -- > > 4. Omitted Code Elements > > > > The following code elements from [UN_M.49] were not associated > with > > [ISO3166-1] alpha-2 code elements. Consequently, they were > not > > assigned as subtags in the initial Language Subtag Registry, > but > > were > > valid candidates for registration as region subtags, using the > > process in [RFC4646]: > > > > 830 Channel Islands > > 831 Guernsey > > 832 Jersey > > 833 Isle of Man > > > > The last three became ineligible for registration in April, > 2006, > > when the [ISO3166-1] code elements GG, JE, and IM were > assigned as > > region subtags. > > -- > > > > Thus, '830' is still valid for registration. At one time, the > rules > > were even more permissive (hence this text). Incidentally, this > > reference is why RFC 4645 is still a normative reference in > draft- > > 4646bis. > > > > Addison > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > > Behalf Of Peter Constable > > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 11:55 AM > > > To: LTRU Working Group > > > Subject: [Ltru] 2.2.4: codes listed as eligible for > registration in > > > 4645 > > > > > > Draft 16 currently has this wording: > > > > > > ------------ > > > E. UN numeric codes and ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 codes for countries > or > > > areas listed as eligible for registration in [RFC4645] but not > > > presently registered MAY be entered into the IANA registry via > the > > > process described in Section 3.5 (Registration Procedure for > > > Subtags). Once registered, these codes MAY be used to form > language > > > tags. > > > ------------ > > > > > > The intended reference isn't clear: I don't see a M.46 or 3166- > 1 > > > codes listed in 4645 as eligible for registration. (The closest > I > > > see are a set of M.49 codes that are *in*eligible for > registration.) > > > Is this paragraph an anachronism that is no longer needed? If > it > > > still has a useful purpose, then it might help to clear up the > > > wording. > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ltru mailing list > > > Ltru@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 10:35:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80743A6A38; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:35:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04043A6B5D for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JpEcrD77JewQ for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CAD3A6A38 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so111679qwe.31 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:35:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=7ZqQKrwiqPktuQXh/nGu/qoTs7Dwwe7AURRL5fSpN8E=; b=F96RhFfy773Wc2S+LnDbqLhPHcKJMeY1kIPpGRub2B3zfQTnsD57+6WaLQFBZs9V8C IA9SCMo6xQEg+hDggXTLlx7scSDJ9916RFUJTgTAMJysfGntBTn3Ys3d43YCrRedoSzw bDOj6msya8+lzCjjF3UdSoyD29baULchpE28w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=RgxgxiltH4pc9g0rBgxPBb+Lt3Pm4Oz0OSNUPEZERCJht1iwao94Ecda/asVaZQDN1 h+N4lp0inI95CTfxJlpV0p/dQQ8YQMBMPrQr+jGElxyJ3mRgDGRFIQmPj9sLrvqYDEWA uMjYDatMvdBpBw4vo/LU4RMc1IIeJ+SSRy3kI= Received: by 10.150.139.15 with SMTP id m15mr16239269ybd.182.1215797715845; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807111035q43f5eee0t6e046d4d8ed96c7c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:35:15 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A3B1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A3B1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6b4e77c20b8bc3e5 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except by prior agreement) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1826286077==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1826286077== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_34918_18243302.1215797715858" ------=_Part_34918_18243302.1215797715858 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A slight tweek, because you still have "..[private use] subtags ... convey more information...". Peter was saying that it is the *tag* using them that conveys more information. I think that both are true, just because en-x-private conveys less info than en-AA (we know AA is meant to be a region). Here's a suggestion Mark On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > (editor hat) > > The suggested revision is "okay", but didn't convey exactly what we meant > either, I think. I rewrote the paragraph and modified the example that > followed (which Peter did not quote) as follows: > > In addition to private-use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton > subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use subtags > derived from the private use codes assigned by underlying standards. These > subtags are valid for use in forming language tags and convey more > information than the 'x-' private-use sequences because they are linked to > the language tag's inherent structure. => In addition to private-use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use subtags derived from the private use codes assigned by underlying standards. These subtags are valid for use in forming language tags; they are recommended over the 'x-' private use subtag sequences: 1. tags incorporating private use subtags convey more publicly interchangeable information than the 'x' sequences, because the subtags are linked to the language tag's inherent structure, while the 'x' sequences are completely opaque to those outside of the private-use agreement. 2. some implementations may not be able to handle 'x' sequences > For example, the region subtags 'AA', 'ZZ', and in the ranges 'QM'-'QZ' > and 'XA'-'XZ' (derived from the ISO 3166-1 private use codes) can be used to > form a language tag. A tag such as "zh-Hans-XQ" conveys a great deal of > public, interchangeable information about the language material (that it is > Chinese in the simplified Chinese script and is suitable for some geographic > region 'XQ'). While the precise geographic region is not known outside of > private agreement, the tag conveys far more information than an opaque tag > such as "x-somelang" or even "zh-Hans-x-xq" (where the 'xq' subtag's meaning > is entirely ambiguous). => entirely opaque. > > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Peter Constable > > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:15 PM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except > > by prior agreement) > > > > The current draft has this in Section 4.6: > > > > ------------ > > Subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a specific private > > use meaning convey more information that a purely private use tag > > prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. > > ------------ > > > > Strictly speaking, that's not true: a private-use *subtag* conveys > > *no* information (except by private convention -- which is clearly > > not assumed in this statement), and so cannot convey more > > information than anything else. > > > > Suggested revision: > > > > ------------ > > Tags created using subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a > > specific private use meaning can convey more information that a > > purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. > > ------------ > > > > > > > > Also, this wording is a bit problematic: > > > > ------------ > > However, in some cases content tagged with private use subtags MAY > > interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable > > manner compared to tags that use opaque, privately defined subtags, > > so the choice of the best approach sometimes depends on the > > particular domain in question. > > ------------ > > > > Tags that use private-use subtags vs. tags that use opaque, > > privately-defined subtags? Those sound the same. > > > > Suggested revision: > > > > ------------ > > However, in some cases content tagged with private-use subtags MAY > > interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable > > manner compared to tags that use opaque, private-use subtag > > sequences prefixed by 'x', so the choice of the best approach > > sometimes depends on the particular domain in question. > > ------------ > > > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_34918_18243302.1215797715858 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A slight tweek, because you still have "..[private use] subtags ... convey more information...". Peter was saying that it is the *tag* using them that conveys more information. I think that both are true, just because en-x-private conveys less info than en-AA (we know AA is meant to be a region).

Here's a suggestion

Mark

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
(editor hat)

The suggested revision is "okay", but didn't convey exactly what we meant either, I think. I rewrote the paragraph and modified the example that followed (which Peter did not quote) as follows:

<t>In addition to private-use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use subtags derived from the private use codes assigned by underlying standards. These subtags are valid for use in forming language tags and convey more information than the 'x-' private-use sequences because they are linked to the language tag's inherent structure.</t>
=>
In addition to private-use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use subtags derived from the private use codes assigned by underlying standards. These subtags are valid for use in forming language tags; they are recommended over the 'x-' private use subtag sequences:
1. tags incorporating private use subtags convey more publicly interchangeable information than the 'x' sequences, because the subtags are linked to the language tag's inherent structure, while the 'x' sequences are completely opaque to those outside of the private-use agreement.
2. some implementations may not be able to handle 'x' sequences


<t>For example, the region subtags 'AA', 'ZZ', and in the ranges 'QM'-'QZ' and 'XA'-'XZ' (derived from the ISO 3166-1 private use codes) can be used to form a language tag. A tag such as "zh-Hans-XQ" conveys a great deal of public, interchangeable information about the language material (that it is Chinese in the simplified Chinese script and is suitable for some geographic region 'XQ'). While the precise geographic region is not known outside of private agreement, the tag conveys far more information than an opaque tag such as "x-somelang" or even "zh-Hans-x-xq" (where the 'xq' subtag's meaning is entirely ambiguous).</t>
=> entirely opaque.


Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:15 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except
> by prior agreement)
>
> The current draft has this in Section 4.6:
>
> ------------
> Subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a specific private
> use meaning convey more information that a purely private use tag
> prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'.
> ------------
>
> Strictly speaking, that's not true: a private-use *subtag* conveys
> *no* information (except by private convention -- which is clearly
> not assumed in this statement), and so cannot convey more
> information than anything else.
>
> Suggested revision:
>
> ------------
> Tags created using subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a
> specific private use meaning can convey more information that a
> purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'.
> ------------
>
>
>
> Also, this wording is a bit problematic:
>
> ------------
> However, in some cases content tagged with private use subtags MAY
> interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable
> manner compared to tags that use opaque, privately defined subtags,
> so the choice of the best approach sometimes depends on the
> particular domain in question.
> ------------
>
> Tags that use private-use subtags vs. tags that use opaque,
> privately-defined subtags? Those sound the same.
>
> Suggested revision:
>
> ------------
> However, in some cases content tagged with private-use subtags MAY
> interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable
> manner compared to tags that use opaque, private-use subtag
> sequences prefixed by 'x', so the choice of the best approach
> sometimes depends on the particular domain in question.
> ------------
>
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_34918_18243302.1215797715858-- --===============1826286077== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1826286077==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 10:39:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D59D13A6A38; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:39:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9973A6B5D for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:39:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.617 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, 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EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:40:06 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:40:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjhEz2okR8m50G/Q3ipztw0Bnx0QAACOiRwAB3EUMAAehaeAA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A419@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: 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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:47:29 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a3b5dbc143cafd00 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0103500012==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: 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11 Jul 2008 17:47:49 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.74]) by ussdixhub22.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.77]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:47:49 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:47:47 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjhEz2okR8m50G/Q3ipztw0Bnx0QAACOiRwAB3EUMAAehaeAAAAgieg Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A419@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A419@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 10:52:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F5A28C1A2; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5CD28C1A2 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AW2ED93niUh2 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61E728C192 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i29so1926992wxd.31 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=YCkuCvmk5Ve4Nz4SLdGp0gfdh54/JttOoSC96rMhvWY=; b=JKFWlDo8KiNGVmywAx8vZ5fI59r1E7qT/mVc9oVUJfPSitnfzSBIOZK2XCDNN7rZCp SFs58WlKi/XoQ9Fl5xiYPft2dw5vw/PhL8yr32DHgD/mqarPR/375eV/dThX2SzCMOaO 1o22qgl6O94bhqFS68XxHLpleOA1PuXn3Ot8U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=laYw3QmCQNLg6/bh2VdjYHOCLWw2wtT+Jl+h98qxlBs0ImANiZESybdFx8UbtsVqkz hU6q3A90TyMNH9qhfGFEnuPpxsJq2M7cakzscIp/Cu7tTk71ea7B5C6ZmDUbmH1ZOKc9 xvmheginQwiByIDplACyW10E6ypgk4bHA6BRQ= Received: by 10.100.34.16 with SMTP id h16mr8666603anh.46.1215798774341; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.194.15 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807111052m7baccb14n7ddaa4bd2e8509d0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:54 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A419@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A419@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0840bf37e2793bde Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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[127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1005B28C192 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.642 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.642 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.956, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0oVbKMLaRw-G for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C66C28C1E1 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:50 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,346,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="86052321" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 17:53:08 +0000 Received: from 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(nothing except by prior agreement) Thread-Index: AcjjfHy397t3d9IITiG+UpMK/1tVrQAANOVw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A445@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A3B1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111035q43f5eee0t6e046d4d8ed96c7c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807111035q43f5eee0t6e046d4d8ed96c7c@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... 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L286cD48L3A+DQoNCjwvZGl2Pg0KDQo8L2Rpdj4NCg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KDQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A445EXSEA5Dantama_-- --===============0178674875== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0178674875==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 10:57:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C6F28C26A; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:57:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8651E28C26B for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:57:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at 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EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:57:54 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "Broome, Karen" , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:57:53 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjhEz2okR8m50G/Q3ipztw0Bnx0QAACOiRwAB3EUMAAehaeAAAAgiegAABji7A= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A455@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A419@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: 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IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4gSSdtIHNhdGlzZmllZCB3aXRoIHRo ZSByZXNvbHV0aW9uIG9mIG90aGVyIGl0ZW1zIEkgcmFpc2VkIGluDQo+IHRoaXMNCj4gPj4gdGhy ZWFkLg0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+PiBQZXRlcg0KPiA+DQo+ID5fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+THRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QN Cj4gPkx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vbHRydQ0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18K THRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:04:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3103A6B7E; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:04:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 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:x-google-sender-auth; bh=qJpLGAoa24/F6k/Tb9sy2GsacnAYFFUdXfaqALg/Mm8=; b=LeQj9b25Oe5xzE5F7ZpG8YGedoJ3JXx73iFjPdWLQ4+RNm/M+sWPbSr8oFyPAwZKu5 K2lqCZBa6iGg7ouGMC0KDalRsPOYJ5C53zIKJQCrPaU2yhZ3EdLPhqUtcMgoMapuJPqT Jte4YkpE0NMpOUNpx/pyhofneQWGCg2tYWW3w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=whEzL64fW4fbug3AUUAMMCHndD4rJY76cHNqUsSaPoOGjMr/+Oc95wofaZVRbdqLME ktQ+0mQXrnToQVKj4r+fjsF0YRMNtSZAreIZJ9JbJbHqEk5KbqbTEmxOEIovpzaBBw+H askadLJ0LB6c6I+Z9n+iPQYMeaIgWuEVNfins= Received: by 10.100.48.8 with SMTP id v8mr6361425anv.50.1215799475103; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.194.15 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807111104w687c250al498033db85652ad1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:04:34 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A455@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A419@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A455@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: f26d2e3886f45ef7 Cc: "Broome, Karen" , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0003989930==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0003989930== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4485_17834769.1215799475094" ------=_Part_4485_17834769.1215799475094 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 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d="scan'208,217";a="75116655" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 18:08:01 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BI7mVo005584; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:07:59 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:07:54 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:07:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjjgJhdTJenxq2GRZ+RA1a8mon3ngAAA17A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A47F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A419@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A455@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111104w687c250al498033db85652ad1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807111104w687c250al498033db85652ad1@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Broome, Karen" , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1626776102==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1626776102== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A47FEXSEA5Dantama_" --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A47FEXSEA5Dantama_ 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OnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KDQo8L2Rpdj4NCg0KPC9kaXY+DQoNCjwvYm9keT4NCg0KPC9o dG1sPg0K --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A47FEXSEA5Dantama_-- --===============1626776102== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1626776102==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:09:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BC728C282; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BE228C282 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7BrzM5PJfeHv for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.234]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AB128C27E for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i29so1930773wxd.31 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=13Nv3WcqBm6uw7/UQ3Lu1HKS7D5uu4HCAMb1+BEcRBg=; b=rRKQmIV039+wkqW+XtO9gm5x6QpZw5IycfNNR9sm1z0JUTp2vxRnn9pV9tJPSvmacr xpAadXaY51RHB36fOISkodiqgYmtDr4Q0R937XubOZDX0f23L61wwk7qFWlv09YbJcdD K7NhpnSPx8LIK69lCMowXUlQeJM7unmkKrACw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rqhpnUy3DuYBa0aL8upSyn6jQwQeYgDGd5nwaG0YB6a+ypInCRNAKikA0CFsuaQrHF XXyNxnvHjxGmttkdnBRu31wsJ9LNDq6SBnncwEEh9dzyvb8QDewVkYF+U2D6U5XT1+2T R6bvOstT0DgiCo8Q5KJKbHtGM3FxQ3mJ5RUqc= Received: by 10.100.5.16 with SMTP id 16mr8698363ane.35.1215799757488; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.194.15 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807111109o7839fa43w18d2c245135107fd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:17 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A445@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A3B1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111035q43f5eee0t6e046d4d8ed96c7c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A445@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1b68b5a4ad683079 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except by prior agreement) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1238654368==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1238654368== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4598_3271683.1215799757495" ------=_Part_4598_3271683.1215799757495 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm ok with removing the second sentence. (BTW, I think we may be just using different senses of 'handle'. Because no implementation is required to handle x sequences -- if it has no private agreements, it can't give them any meaning anyway -- it would be perfectly acceptable for an implementation on input to strip them before interpreting the rest of the tag.) Mark On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > I'm okay with this suggestion, only I don't think we should say your item > #2. An implementation that doesn't handle 'x' sequences is horribly broken. > > > > Addison > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2008 10:35 AM > *To:* Phillips, Addison > *Cc:* Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except > by prior agreement) > > > > A slight tweek, because you still have "..[private use] subtags ... convey > more information...". Peter was saying that it is the *tag* using them that > conveys more information. I think that both are true, just because > en-x-private conveys less info than en-AA (we know AA is meant to be a > region). > > Here's a suggestion > > Mark > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Phillips, Addison > wrote: > > (editor hat) > > The suggested revision is "okay", but didn't convey exactly what we meant > either, I think. I rewrote the paragraph and modified the example that > followed (which Peter did not quote) as follows: > > In addition to private-use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton > subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use subtags > derived from the private use codes assigned by underlying standards. These > subtags are valid for use in forming language tags and convey more > information than the 'x-' private-use sequences because they are linked to > the language tag's inherent structure. > > => > In addition to private-use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton > subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use subtags > derived from the private use codes assigned by underlying standards. These > subtags are valid for use in forming language tags; they are recommended > over the 'x-' private use subtag sequences: > 1. tags incorporating private use subtags convey more publicly > interchangeable information than the 'x' sequences, because the subtags are > linked to the language tag's inherent structure, while the 'x' sequences are > completely opaque to those outside of the private-use agreement. > 2. some implementations may not be able to handle 'x' sequences > > DONE, but with a deeper recasting: > > Private use sequences introduced by the 'x' singleton are completely > opaque to users or implementations outside of the private use agreement. So, > in addition to private use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton > subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use language, > script, and region subtags derived from the private use codes assigned by > the underlying standards. These subtags are valid for use in forming > language tags; they are RECOMMENDED over the 'x' singleton private use > subtag sequences because they convey more information via their linkage to > the language tag's inherent structure. > > > > > For example, the region subtags 'AA', 'ZZ', and in the ranges 'QM'-'QZ' > and 'XA'-'XZ' (derived from the ISO 3166-1 private use codes) can be used to > form a language tag. A tag such as "zh-Hans-XQ" conveys a great deal of > public, interchangeable information about the language material (that it is > Chinese in the simplified Chinese script and is suitable for some geographic > region 'XQ'). While the precise geographic region is not known outside of > private agreement, the tag conveys far more information than an opaque tag > such as "x-somelang" or even "zh-Hans-x-xq" (where the 'xq' subtag's meaning > is entirely ambiguous). > > => entirely opaque. > > > > DONE > > > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Peter Constable > > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:15 PM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except > > by prior agreement) > > > > The current draft has this in Section 4.6: > > > > ------------ > > Subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a specific private > > use meaning convey more information that a purely private use tag > > prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. > > ------------ > > > > Strictly speaking, that's not true: a private-use *subtag* conveys > > *no* information (except by private convention -- which is clearly > > not assumed in this statement), and so cannot convey more > > information than anything else. > > > > Suggested revision: > > > > ------------ > > Tags created using subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a > > specific private use meaning can convey more information that a > > purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. > > ------------ > > > > > > > > Also, this wording is a bit problematic: > > > > ------------ > > However, in some cases content tagged with private use subtags MAY > > interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable > > manner compared to tags that use opaque, privately defined subtags, > > so the choice of the best approach sometimes depends on the > > particular domain in question. > > ------------ > > > > Tags that use private-use subtags vs. tags that use opaque, > > privately-defined subtags? Those sound the same. > > > > Suggested revision: > > > > ------------ > > However, in some cases content tagged with private-use subtags MAY > > interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable > > manner compared to tags that use opaque, private-use subtag > > sequences prefixed by 'x', so the choice of the best approach > > sometimes depends on the particular domain in question. > > ------------ > > > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > ------=_Part_4598_3271683.1215799757495 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm ok with removing the second sentence.

(BTW, I think we may be just using different senses of 'handle'. Because no implementation is required to handle x sequences -- if it has no private agreements, it can't give them any meaning anyway -- it would be perfectly acceptable for an implementation on input to strip them before interpreting the rest of the tag.)

Mark

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

I'm okay with this suggestion, only I don't think we should say your item #2. An implementation that doesn't handle 'x' sequences is horribly broken.

 

Addison

 

Addison Phillips

Globalization Architect -- Lab126

 

Internationalization is not a feature.

It is an architecture.

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 10:35 AM
To: Phillips, Addison
Cc: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except by prior agreement)

 

A slight tweek, because you still have "..[private use] subtags ... convey more information...". Peter was saying that it is the *tag* using them that conveys more information. I think that both are true, just because en-x-private conveys less info than en-AA (we know AA is meant to be a region).

Here's a suggestion

Mark

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

(editor hat)

The suggested revision is "okay", but didn't convey exactly what we meant either, I think. I rewrote the paragraph and modified the example that followed (which Peter did not quote) as follows:

<t>In addition to private-use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use subtags derived from the private use codes assigned by underlying standards. These subtags are valid for use in forming language tags and convey more information than the 'x-' private-use sequences because they are linked to the language tag's inherent structure.</t>

=>
In addition to private-use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use subtags derived from the private use codes assigned by underlying standards. These subtags are valid for use in forming language tags; they are recommended over the 'x-' private use subtag sequences:
1. tags incorporating private use subtags convey more publicly interchangeable information than the 'x' sequences, because the subtags are linked to the language tag's inherent structure, while the 'x' sequences are completely opaque to those outside of the private-use agreement.
2. some implementations may not be able to handle 'x' sequences

DONE, but with a deeper recasting:

<t>Private use sequences introduced by the 'x' singleton are completely opaque to users or implementations outside of the private use agreement. So, in addition to private use subtag sequences introduced by the singleton subtag 'x', the Language Subtag Registry provides private use language, script, and region subtags derived from the private use codes assigned by the underlying standards. These subtags are valid for use in forming language tags; they are RECOMMENDED over the 'x' singleton private use subtag sequences because they convey more information via their linkage to the language tag's inherent structure.</t>

 


<t>For example, the region subtags 'AA', 'ZZ', and in the ranges 'QM'-'QZ' and 'XA'-'XZ' (derived from the ISO 3166-1 private use codes) can be used to form a language tag. A tag such as "zh-Hans-XQ" conveys a great deal of public, interchangeable information about the language material (that it is Chinese in the simplified Chinese script and is suitable for some geographic region 'XQ'). While the precise geographic region is not known outside of private agreement, the tag conveys far more information than an opaque tag such as "x-somelang" or even "zh-Hans-x-xq" (where the 'xq' subtag's meaning is entirely ambiguous).</t>

=> entirely opaque.

 

DONE



Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:15 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except
> by prior agreement)
>
> The current draft has this in Section 4.6:
>
> ------------
> Subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a specific private
> use meaning convey more information that a purely private use tag
> prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'.
> ------------
>
> Strictly speaking, that's not true: a private-use *subtag* conveys
> *no* information (except by private convention -- which is clearly
> not assumed in this statement), and so cannot convey more
> information than anything else.
>
> Suggested revision:
>
> ------------
> Tags created using subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a
> specific private use meaning can convey more information that a
> purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'.
> ------------
>
>
>
> Also, this wording is a bit problematic:
>
> ------------
> However, in some cases content tagged with private use subtags MAY
> interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable
> manner compared to tags that use opaque, privately defined subtags,
> so the choice of the best approach sometimes depends on the
> particular domain in question.
> ------------
>
> Tags that use private-use subtags vs. tags that use opaque,
> privately-defined subtags? Those sound the same.
>
> Suggested revision:
>
> ------------
> However, in some cases content tagged with private-use subtags MAY
> interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable
> manner compared to tags that use opaque, private-use subtag
> sequences prefixed by 'x', so the choice of the best approach
> sometimes depends on the particular domain in question.
> ------------
>
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

 


------=_Part_4598_3271683.1215799757495-- --===============1238654368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1238654368==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:09:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9EC28C288; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8A928C27F for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.64 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.64 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j+37Ock1222i for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9B328C281 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:18 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,346,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="8761290" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 18:09:34 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BI9Xes019093 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:09:34 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:34 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:09:32 -0700 Thread-Topic: 4.1.2: sgn-US Thread-Index: AcjhS/3bzK9+kCClT9GTWz9D9My4KgASJ2egAHspz4A= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A486@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1.2: sgn-US X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org DONE. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 12:25 AM > To: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] 4.1.2: sgn-US > > [correcting reference to 4.1.2 -- subject was "4.1.1: sgn-US "] > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of > > Peter Constable > > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:43 PM > > > The current draft has this wording in 4.1.2: > > ------------- > For example, the grandfathered tag "sgn-US" used to mean 'American > Sign > Language' specifically, without reference to the United States. > ------------- > > Presumably this grandfathered tag doesn't change its meaning any > more > than any other grandfathered tag; yet a change in meaning is > suggested > by the wording "used to mean". Suggested revision: > > ------------- > For example, the grandfathered tag "sgn-US" was registered to > represent > 'American Sign Language' specifically, without reference to the > United > States. > ------------- > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:11:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70EF928C20C; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:11:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3304228C20C for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:11:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.615 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.615 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.983, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FWaHLbL7yjAT for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4747428C1A5 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:11:26 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,346,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="86062562" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 18:11:40 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BIBdtT008456; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:11:39 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:11:39 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:11:38 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... (nothing except by prior agreement) Thread-Index: AcjjgT6HTUc40+yCTOuf9UeVuPqdkgAACDMw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A48F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A3B1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111035q43f5eee0t6e046d4d8ed96c7c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A445@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111109o7839fa43w18d2c245135107fd@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807111109o7839fa43w18d2c245135107fd@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.6: private use subtags convey... 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1124135734==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:24:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E98F3A68D2; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:24:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327F63A677C for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:24:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.741 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.142, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4GzBAiN4UH8W for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF0F28C1FC for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:24:55 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,346,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="75123171" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 18:25:13 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BIPBAC002355 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:25:12 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:25:12 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:25:10 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: Acjh0NYAvlatmq0/RuCV/KLUIyYBmwBsOL9w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A4BE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <5DBA6F588FA2476FA0041609D1F29DBB@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64517@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709143354.GA13157@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080709143354.GA13157@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org And, having revised the paragraph deeply, I find John's comments next in my backlog. Argh. > > > Use a specific language subtags or sequences of subtags in > preference > > Drop "a". ... usw. I incorporated John's comments as appropriate. The paragraph now reads: Use specific language subtags or sequences of subtags in preference to subtags for language collections. A "language collection" is a group of languages that are descended from a common ancestor, are spoken in the same geographical area, or are otherwise related. Certain language collections are assigned codes by (and some of these ISO 639-5 codes are also defined as collections in ISO 639-2). These codes are included as primary language subtags in the registry. Subtags for a language collection in the registry have a 'Scope' field with a value of 'collection'. A subtag for a language collection is always preferred to less-specific alternatives such as 'mul' and 'und' (see below) and a subtag representing a language collection MAY be used when more specific language information is not available. However, most users and implementations do not know there is a relationship between the collection and its individual languages. In addition, the relationship between the individual languages in the collection is not well defined; in particular, the languages are usually not mutually intelligible. Since the subtags are different, the tags are treated as being different languages: a request for the collection will only produce items tagged with the collection's subtag, not items tagged with subtags for the individual languages contained in the collection. Collections are interpreted inclusively, so, for example, the subtag 'gem' (Germanic langauges) could, but SHOULD NOT, be used with content that would be better tagged with "en" (English), "de" (German), or "gsw" (Swiss German, Alemannic). While 'gem' collects all of these (and other) languages, most implementations will not match 'gem' to the individual languages; thus using the subtag will not produce the desired result. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:32:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F31E3A69E2; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:32:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8847428C267 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:32:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oxkzb28dxaP9 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.244]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C0E3A677C for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d18so1877152and.122 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:32:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=j9cPHAQwBsCtn0+JV/SXcaxT+F9hPBjeGVEgMSt14kE=; b=LoN3CFa/XOoVXgol5XN43s6q7qGsWzrJcz7quPkGJD4TDL3Nm3bjL6Yci8zUDDCckH 7CsjPT63NTYNPni7sP5ShoaO2m5n05AsYDqCdpQQM+YyPr/52XuzARW4u88MPXvdYbV3 xQAAI5awoRgZLyYfL7NZ3d0uNDZwyZIiyRFec= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=MRs23ZZbfoUrDEx83i+um0s1eRjy+maHFg6YbRTCFcNOi1Mvpee5yzVb9dzkjCBeub fZ+CJuJCHzpxt5e3qCmcW15eGuOa1pmemv51e5pNtTDF4Hy//QuMdp1uobCSoU+N1nuf /erQYwCChdgUC9N5ar2OYDkVeuxEPktylHObo= Received: by 10.100.225.19 with SMTP id x19mr8741031ang.151.1215801126896; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.194.15 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807111132t7add05f7j548db0d2737c3d7c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:32:06 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A4BE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5DBA6F588FA2476FA0041609D1F29DBB@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64517@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709143354.GA13157@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A4BE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: d95b846c4b49b98b Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1118045822==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1118045822== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5117_27662467.1215801126881" ------=_Part_5117_27662467.1215801126881 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline almost there Mark On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:25 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > And, having revised the paragraph deeply, I find John's comments next in my > backlog. Argh. > > > > > > Use a specific language subtags or sequences of subtags in > > preference > > > > Drop "a". > > ... usw. > > I incorporated John's comments as appropriate. The paragraph now reads: > > Use specific language subtags or sequences of subtags in preference to > subtags for language collections. A "language > collection" is a group of languages that are descended from a common > ancestor, > are spoken in the same geographical area, or are otherwise related. > Certain language collections are assigned codes by target="ISO639-5"> (and some of these ISO 639-5 codes are also > defined as collections in ISO 639-2). These codes are included as primary > language subtags in the registry. Subtags for a language collection in the > registry have a 'Scope' field with a value of 'collection'. A subtag for a > language collection is always preferred to less-specific alternatives such > as 'mul' and 'und' (see below) and a subtag representing a language > collection MAY be used when more specific language information is not > available. However, most users and implementations do not know there is a > relationship between the collection and its individual languages. In > addition, the relationship between the individual languages in the > collection is not well defined; in particular, the languages are usually not > mutually intelligible. Since the subtags are different, the tags are treated > as being different languages: a request for the collection wil > l only produce items tagged with the collection's subtag, not items tagged > with subtags for the ...will typically only produce ... [we can only say typically, since people may have more or less sophisticated matching] individual languages contained in the collection. Collections are > interpreted inclusively, so, for example, the subtag 'gem' (Germanic > langauges) could, but SHOULD NOT, be used with content that would be better > tagged with "en" (English), "de" (German), or "gsw" (Swiss German, > Alemannic). While 'gem' collects all of these (and other) languages, most > implementations will not match 'gem' to the individual languages; thus using > the subtag will not produce the desired result. > > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_5117_27662467.1215801126881 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline YWxtb3N0IHRoZXJlPGRpdj48YnIgY2xlYXI9ImFsbCI+TWFyawo8YnI+PGJyPjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9 ImdtYWlsX3F1b3RlIj5PbiBGcmksIEp1bCAxMSwgMjAwOCBhdCAxMToyNSBBTSwgUGhpbGxpcHMs IEFkZGlzb24gJmx0OzxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzphZGRpc29uQGFtYXpvbi5jb20iPmFkZGlzb25A YW1hem9uLmNvbTwvYT4mZ3Q7IHdyb3RlOjxicj48YmxvY2txdW90ZSBjbGFzcz0iZ21haWxfcXVv dGUiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW46MCAwIDAgLjhleDtib3JkZXItbGVmdDoxcHggI2NjYyBzb2xpZDtw YWRkaW5nLWxlZnQ6MWV4OyI+CkFuZCwgaGF2aW5nIHJldmlzZWQgdGhlIHBhcmFncmFwaCBkZWVw 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PC9hPjxicj4KPC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPjwvZGl2Pjxicj48L2Rpdj4K ------=_Part_5117_27662467.1215801126881-- --===============1118045822== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1118045822==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:37:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F923A685C; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:37:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7152E3A685C for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:37:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BrDTRjyH-sad for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964D23A6840 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:34377 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KHNVV-0003Y7-8B for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:38:13 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A419@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:38:10 +0200 Message-ID: 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X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1KHNVV-0003Y7-8B 1948d908ed66c1e80f3e85954b1c8a0b Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison wrote: > Use a specific language subtags or sequences of subtags in > preference to subtags for language collections. A "language "Use a specific language subtags"... Apart from the singular/plural combo, should this not be "individual language" rather than "specific language". /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:38:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A99143A6A02; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:38:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1407C28C1B7 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:38:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.638 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.638 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wprDG0LVwamA for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241073A6A02 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:38:08 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,346,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="8774642" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 18:38:25 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BIcPCr028155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:38:25 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:38:25 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:38:23 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjjhHHcwYxDZLauRGq1ZSaBtX31jwAAMW2w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A4E3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <5DBA6F588FA2476FA0041609D1F29DBB@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64517@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080709143354.GA13157@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A4BE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111132t7add05f7j548db0d2737c3d7c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807111132t7add05f7j548db0d2737c3d7c@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2145684763==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:41:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF9C28C2AD; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED9628C2AD for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:41:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.615 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.615 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 35acO+3hXT8t for ; 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Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:40:38 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Kent Karlsson , "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:41:01 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases Thread-Index: AcjhEz2okR8m50G/Q3ipztw0Bnx0QAACOiRwAB3EUMAAehaeAAACUhoAAAAgNIA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A4EB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BA94AF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A419@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <909706C0ED6D4336B50C06606F0EF2FA@streamserve.com> In-Reply-To: <909706C0ED6D4336B50C06606F0EF2FA@streamserve.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 4.1: 639-2 special cases X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > Use a specific language subtags or sequences of subtags in > > preference to subtags for language collections. A "language > > "Use a specific language subtags"... > > Apart from the singular/plural combo, should this not be Now fixed. > "individual language" rather than "specific language". Probably. I've snuck up on using individual language consistently in the paragraph over the last couple of revisions. This makes the sentence read: -- Use subtags or sequences of subtags for individual languages in preference to subtags for language collections. -- > > /kent k > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:44:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9697428C2AD; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:44:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3702F28C2AD for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.592 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.592 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id roAPFthT0COL for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550653A69E2 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:44:21 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,346,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="86078704" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 18:44:35 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BIiYHP019725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:44:34 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:44:34 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:44:09 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:44:32 -0700 Thread-Topic: editor's copy... Thread-Index: Acjjhih+HWkDh2g6S/+3qNg/x0nw2w== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A4F7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] editor's copy... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have updated inter-locale so that the links are all the correct ones. In addition, the Editor's Copy is now draft-17. Changes are up to date as of my last email to this list. Diff links are on the site. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 13:51:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4113A6AFE; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:51:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949F33A6ABC for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:51:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.734 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.734 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.135, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iJ4hzNVlvf2s for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46C53A6B0B for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:50:56 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,347,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="75181105" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jul 2008 20:51:08 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6BKp5pC014114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:51:06 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:51:05 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:51:04 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... Thread-Index: AcjjClqMbb/PNXQaTxOOWt71o3k1PwAicX7w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A6B6@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4B4A8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) > > > > 'Description' fields assigned to record of any specific type > > ('language', 'extlang', 'script', and so on) MUST be unique > within > > that given record type so that users do not become confused about > > which subtag to use. > > I know the text is too long already, but you really need to add "a" > after "assigned to". :-) DONE. > I hope we can > resolve > this by simply making it "assigned to a non-deprecated record of > any > specific type" and hoping it isn't necessary to explain in the > ensuing > text why deprecated subtags are exempt. I took your suggestion and Peter's suggestion of: ---------------- Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. Also, each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of records of the same type with the following exception: if a particular 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, then one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other records as Preferred-Value. ---------------- .. and did even more editing to allow duplicates in the excepted case. The paragraphs in 3.1.4 now read: To help ensure that users do not become confused about which subtag to use, 'Description' fields assigned to a record of any specific type ('language', 'extlang', 'script', and so on) MUST be unique within that given record type with the following exception: if a particular 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, then one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other records as Preferred-Value. This means that two records of the same type that share a 'Description' are also semantically equivalent. For example, consider the 'language' subtags 'zza' (Zaza) and 'diq' (Dimli). It so happens that 'zza' is a macrolanguage enclosing 'diq' and thus also has a description in ISO 639-3 of "Dimli". This description was edited to read "Dimli (macrolanguage)" in the registry record for 'zza' to prevent a collision. By contrast, the subtags 'he' and 'iw' share a 'Description' value of "Hebrew"; this is permitted because 'iw' is deprecated and its 'Preferred-Value' is 'he'. Now, close readers will notice that the instructions to the LSR are missing. That's because they don't make as much sense in the section describing the field as they do in Section 3.5, where the registration procedure is given. By moving the MUSTard directed at the LSR to the registration section, we have a better organization of stuff. The Description text in Section 3.5 now reads: The 'Description' fields provided in the request MUST contain at least one description written or transcribed into the Latin script; the request MAY also include additional 'Description' fields in any script or language. The 'Description' field is used for identification purposes and doesn't necessarily represent the actual native name of the language or variation. It also doesn't have to be in any particular language, but SHOULD be both suitable and sufficient to identify the item in the record. The Language Subtag Reviewer will check and edit any proposed 'Description' fields so as to ensure uniqueness and prevent collisions with 'Description' fields in other records of the same type. If this occurs in an independent registration request, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST resubmit the record to ietf-languages, treating it as a modification of a request due to discussion, as described in , unless the request's sole purpose is to introduce a duplicate 'Description' field, in which case the request SHALL be rejected. While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in . Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 13:58:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7466D3A6A02; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:58:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C68F3A6A02 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:58:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.076 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.076 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qXD47RNID0gX for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59523A6961 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so1750706ywj.49 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:58:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Cn4z8eyqN/f+xqmG7t6ZvCtyZ15EvaPuFR/UE8nYYqc=; b=J3mrZa36nc/a9M+LND1852BTofNIfZaBFB+GZTo4K6hbSHYDZDpGE4z3My6IirgSQl lBP0pWLqdgTld2MugTDVFecZ+4EHnoKON6NWuWnRiE2nQ2ompzCrKkWGCKw/PSqcoJhl DAvmDhLF56TQLd88MIDYNNHEtxr5NAZ/TQDkM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=TYVRsjqUnc1ldQWHGWHmZhDAcrFBxm8kW7g1E6yo2h6D7vlxQlzW3bFEj6qhqlpdSC Z+PIToLp6p1GLDXJPou+Nb7r5UxFy5xUasm2Rm38+3FGdWnAYiQTsmKOVFZEGUMjtXc9 ReREfWF8BYCV8GoS5MiwoxHQDUhw7XrJtP5TI= Received: by 10.150.153.3 with SMTP id a3mr14035334ybe.84.1215809910559; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807111358r49427120l19cd7b562d45702f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:58:30 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A6B6@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4B4A8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2A6B6@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 769c31f6c9021e09 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] section 3.5 and descriptions... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0706729704==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0706729704== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_37709_15901624.1215809910584" ------=_Part_37709_15901624.1215809910584 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Looks great. Mark On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > (editor hat) > > > > > > > 'Description' fields assigned to record of any specific type > > > ('language', 'extlang', 'script', and so on) MUST be unique > > within > > > that given record type so that users do not become confused about > > > which subtag to use. > > > > I know the text is too long already, but you really need to add "a" > > after "assigned to". :-) > > DONE. > > > I hope we can > > resolve > > this by simply making it "assigned to a non-deprecated record of > > any > > specific type" and hoping it isn't necessary to explain in the > > ensuing > > text why deprecated subtags are exempt. > > I took your suggestion and Peter's suggestion of: > > ---------------- > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record. Also, each > 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of records of the > same type with the following exception: if a particular 'Description' field > occurs in multiple records of a given type, then one of those records MUST > be for a subtag listed in all the other records as Preferred-Value. > ---------------- > > .. and did even more editing to allow duplicates in the excepted case. The > paragraphs in 3.1.4 now read: > > To help ensure that users do not become confused about which subtag to > use, 'Description' fields assigned to a record of any specific type > ('language', 'extlang', 'script', and so on) MUST be unique within that > given record type with the following exception: if a particular > 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type, then one of > those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other records as > Preferred-Value. This means that two records of the same type that share a > 'Description' are also semantically equivalent. > > For example, consider the 'language' subtags 'zza' (Zaza) and 'diq' > (Dimli). It so happens that 'zza' is a macrolanguage enclosing 'diq' and > thus also has a description in ISO 639-3 of "Dimli". This description was > edited to read "Dimli (macrolanguage)" in the registry record for 'zza' to > prevent a collision. > > By contrast, the subtags 'he' and 'iw' share a 'Description' value of > "Hebrew"; this is permitted because 'iw' is deprecated and its > 'Preferred-Value' is 'he'. > > Now, close readers will notice that the instructions to the LSR are > missing. That's because they don't make as much sense in the section > describing the field as they do in Section 3.5, where the registration > procedure is given. By moving the MUSTard directed at the LSR to the > registration section, we have a better organization of stuff. The > Description text in Section 3.5 now reads: > > The 'Description' fields provided in the request MUST contain at least > one description written or transcribed into the Latin script; the request > MAY also include additional 'Description' fields in any script or language. > The 'Description' field is used for identification purposes and doesn't > necessarily represent the actual native name of the language or variation. > It also doesn't have to be in any particular language, but SHOULD be both > suitable and sufficient to identify the item in the record. The Language > Subtag Reviewer will check and edit any proposed 'Description' fields so as > to ensure uniqueness and prevent collisions with 'Description' fields in > other records of the same type. If this occurs in an independent > registration request, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST resubmit the record > to ietf-languages, treating it as a modification of a request due to > discussion, as described in , unless > the request's sole purpose is to intr > oduce a duplicate 'Description' field, in which case the request SHALL be > rejected. > > While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and > errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts to provide > translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself will > probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as changes > of this nature have an impact on the provisions in target="ianastability"/>. > > > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_37709_15901624.1215809910584 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 776C13A6AEF; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:30:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 347E83A6B55 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:30:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gryteVV4LHM4 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53E03A6AEF for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6C8UiT6009265 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:30:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 0b57_d1dc9532_4fec_11dd_81b4_0014221f2a2d; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:30:44 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:45351) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:24:45 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:26:41 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" , "Peter Constable" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.co m> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0804468996==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0804468996== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 02:47 08/07/12, Mark Davis wrote: >I agree that we can revisit the canonicalization in a future version; however, we have to make sure that we are clear that ordering doesn't matter. It is implicit currently, because we don't specify any semantics for the ordering of variants, but we need to make it explicit. Here is suggested text. I tend to disagree. Because we don't say anything doesn't mean that it's one way or the other. It's very easy to argue that our matching procedures assume a fixed ordering, or in other words that there is a difference between different orderings. Regards, Martin. > >2.2.5. Variant Subtags > > > >6. The order of variant subtags does not carry any semantic meaning. > > >Mark > >On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote: >> >>I don't have any problem not making changes to deal with canonicalization of variants. >> >> >> >>Peter >> >> >> >>From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] >>Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:31 AM >>To: Peter Constable; ltru@ietf.org >>Subject: RE: [Ltru] Canonical variants >> >> >> >>I tend to agree with what you wrote below, at least generally. >> >> >> >>Tag canonicalization includes a number of operations, the purpose of which is mainly to make matching/selection operations work reliably. That is, when tags are semantically equivalent, a request for one form of the tag produces all of its semantic matches. In programming, we call this "do what I mean". >> >> >> >>We've defined a number of operations to help this: >> >> >> >>- We normalize case, even though we shout repeatedly that case is not important in processing tags. This is partly for human legibility purposes, but it certainly helps na$B%F%C(Bve string matching >> >>- We map to preferred-values. This makes a request for things like region "BU" include results with region "MM", which is what the user probably intends. >> >>- We reorder extensions. This makes extension processing easier to implement (well, only a little). >> >> >> >>Variant ordering seems to fit the above. However, unlike other subtag types, variants can convey a variety of classes of meaning. We have already registered a variety of transcriptions, orthographies, regional or specialized dialects/jargons/etc., spelling variations ("oed"), and so forth. The interplay between these is complex and the order may or may not have meaning---either in terms of the semantic meaning of the tag or in terms of matching. >> >> >> >>Since we did not specify variant ordering in 4646, adding it now could (but is extremely unlikely to) break situations in which people have relied on variant order for some kind of semantic score keeping. Personally, the less we require implementations to look inside the tags and dink around with the values provided, the better. Most implementations today are way more na$B%F%C(Bve than what we're specifying. >> >> >> >>And given that variants should always be rare, specifying any canonical order seems like overkill. Tag Content Wisely$Bc`%r(B. Adding a health warning stating that variant order is "significant to some matching operations, so try to be consistent" seems to me a better course of action. >> >> >> >>Addison Phillips >> >>Globalization Architect -- Lab126 >> >> >> >>Internationalization is not a feature. >> >>It is an architecture. >> >> >> >>From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Constable >>Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:02 AM >>To: ltru@ietf.org >>Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants >> >> >> >>On reflection, I don't think relative order can be semantically significant. These tags represent nothing more than semantic meaning components; unlike encoded characters, their encoded order does not correspond to any visual ordering. For the order to be semantically significant, we would have to explicitly devise some semantic metaphor to which ordering corresponds. >> >> >> >>Now, we have, in fact, defined a metaphor somewhat related to position of subtags: it is that the addition of a subtag onto the end of a tag should have the effect of narrowing the denotation, making it more specific. In effect, subtags combine logicially in a conjunctive manner $Bc`E(Bcriterion a AND criterion b AND $Bc`%r(B But note that logical conjunction is a commutative operation, and so two different criteria applied to a filter lead to the same result whether the filter is expressed as a AND b or b AND a. >> >> >> >>In terms of tags as elements of declarative meanings, the only issue in ordering of subtags has to do with required prefixes: for any pair of subtags, they are either fully independent, or strictly dependent, and in the latter case we may specify a prefix. >> >> >> >>On the other hand, in terms of tags as constructs that are processed in particular ways in matching algorithms, we know that order can matter, particularly in relation to right-side-truncation processing. That has led us to put subtags for which the meaning can have greater impact on user experience toward the start of a tag; in particular, that is what led us to put the script subtag before subtags that would be used for dialectal variations, region and variant. For the same reasons, I could see potential motivation to canonicalize so that variant subtags related to written form are before variant subtags related to dialectal variation. But down at the level of variant, I don't see enough benefit: we would need to add subtag attributes for variants to differentiate those that pertain to written form from those do not, and there aren't clear scenarios where the need for the effects could provide. >> >> >> >>So, it seems to me that defining a canonicalization for variant subtags that considers only prefix and some arbitrary basis for ordering (such as alphabetic order) would be adequate. >> >> >> >> >> >>Peter >> >> >> >>From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis >>Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 3:19 PM >>To: John Cowan >>Cc: ltru@ietf.org >>Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants >> >> >> >>As I said, we are the ones who are determining the meaning of these things. If the meaning of xx-fonipa-boont is different than the meaning of xx-boont-fonipa, then it is up to us to say what the difference is. If you can state what the difference is, then we should put that in the spec, and canonicalization should not reorder. >> >>Mark >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Ltru mailing list >>Ltru@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp --===============0804468996== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0804468996==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 09:12:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FE83A6BA7; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:12:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941353A69F3 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:12:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.614 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.614 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.985, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sFVTlD9DYrfp for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35363A6BA7 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:12:09 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,350,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="86526624" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 12 Jul 2008 16:12:27 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6CGCNMN029965; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:12:24 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:12:23 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Duerst , Mark Davis , Peter Constable Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:12:21 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: Acjj+aDzJKeOqXLGTu2PY6XeTMaHlwAQAuZw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin wrote: > >I agree that we can revisit the canonicalization in a future > version; however, we have to make sure that we are clear that > ordering doesn't matter. It is implicit currently, because we don't > specify any semantics for the ordering of variants, but we need to > make it explicit. Here is suggested text. > > I tend to disagree. Because we don't say anything doesn't mean > that it's one way or the other. It's very easy to argue that our > matching procedures assume a fixed ordering, or in other words > that there is a difference between different orderings. > I agree with Martin. There is a difference between differently ordered variants. Indeed, this is sometimes significant, which you can see in the schedule of prefixes for Slovenian variants. That is, some variants modify the meaning of other variants that precede them. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 12:26:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF6C3A6872; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:26:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B684B3A687F for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:26:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.635 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.635 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P2j2yHWjH13l for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1CF3A6872 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:26:06 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,350,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="9325977" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 12 Jul 2008 19:26:24 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6CJQN6M028165 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:26:23 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:26:23 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:25:59 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:26:21 -0700 Thread-Topic: suppress-script and extlang Thread-Index: AcjkVSqBfXLZAHTLSdOioYI3xPDM+g== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] suppress-script and extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Can an extlang have a suppress-script? Our text doesn't currently allow it. Note: I'm doing a stem-to-stern edit this weekend, which means lots of editorial tweaks to the text. Most of these have to do with reordering information inside of sections to make more sense or finding more appropriate places for our vast number of "Note" paragraphs (so that I can remove the constant use of "Note:"). Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 13:26:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F443A6820; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF19E3A6820 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:26:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.614 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.614 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p5qUcilvBSft for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FBDB3A67BD for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:26:42 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,351,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="9371512" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 12 Jul 2008 20:27:03 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6CKR0E6028250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:27:03 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:27:00 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:26:58 -0700 Thread-Topic: obsolete grandfathered values... Thread-Index: AcjkXaJCwjBqmMEHSqC2PzOKIMJ7ug== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA6A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org V2UgaGF2ZSBhIGJpdCBvZiBsZWZ0b3ZlciB0ZXh0IGluIHRoZSBzZWN0aW9uIG9uIHN0YWJpbGl0 eSByZWxhdGluZyB0byBncmFuZGZhdGhlcmVkIHRhZ3MuIEl0IHNheXM6DQoNCi0tDQpSRkMgMzA2 NiB0YWdzIHRoYXQgd2VyZSBkZXByZWNhdGVkIHByaW9yIHRvIHRoZSBhZG9wdGlvbiBvZiBbUkZD NDY0Nl0gKFBoaWxsaXBzLCBBLiBhbmQgTS4gRGF2aXMsIOKAnFRhZ3MgZm9yIElkZW50aWZ5aW5n IExhbmd1YWdlcyzigJ0gU2VwdGVtYmVyIDIwMDYuKSBhcmUgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUgbGlzdCBvZiBn cmFuZGZhdGhlcmVkIHRhZ3MsIGFuZCB0aGVpciBjb21wb25lbnQgc3VidGFncyB3ZXJlIG5vdCBp bmNsdWRlZCBhcyByZWdpc3RlcmVkIHZhcmlhbnRzIChhbHRob3VnaCB0aGV5IHJlbWFpbiBlbGln aWJsZSBmb3IgcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uKS4gRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHRoZSB0YWcgImFydC1sb2piYW4i IHdhcyBkZXByZWNhdGVkIGluIGZhdm9yIG9mIHRoZSBsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWcgJ2pibycuDQot LQ0KDQpUaGlzIG5vIGxvbmdlciBtYWtlcyBzZW5zZSB0byBtZSwgYXMgd2UgcHJldmlvdXNseSBz YXkgdGhhdCB0aGUgZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCBsaXN0IGlzIG5vdyBjbG9zZWQgYW5kIGltbXV0YWJs ZS4gSSByZXBsYWNlZCBpdCB3aXRoOg0KDQotLQ0KTWFueSBvZiB0aGUgZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCB0 YWdzIGFyZSBkZXByZWNhdGVkLCBpbmRlZWQsIHRoZXkgd2VyZSBkZXByZWNhdGVkIGV2ZW4gYmVm b3JlIDx4cmVmIHRhcmdldD0iUkZDNDY0NiI+PC94cmVmPi4gRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHRoZSB0YWcg ImFydC1sb2piYW4iIHdhcyBkZXByZWNhdGVkIGluIGZhdm9yIG9mIHRoZSBwcmltYXJ5IGxhbmd1 YWdlIHN1YnRhZyAnamJvJy4gVGhlc2UgdGFncyBjb3VsZCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbWFkZSAncmVkdW5k YW50JyBieSByZWdpc3RlcmluZyBzb21lIG9mIHRoZWlyIHN1YnRhZ3MgYXMgJ3ZhcmlhbnRzJy4g VGhlICd2YXJpYW50LWxpa2UnIHN1YnRhZ3MgaW4gdGhlIGdyYW5kZmF0aGVyZWQgcmVnaXN0cmF0 aW9ucyBTSEFMTCBOT1QgYmUgcmVnaXN0ZXJlZCBpbiB0aGUgZnV0dXJlLCBldmVuIHdpdGggYSBz aW1pbGFyIG9yIGlkZW50aWNhbCBtZWFuaW5nLg0KLS0NCg0KVGhvdWdodHM/DQoNCkFkZGlzb24g UGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJjaGl0ZWN0IC0tIExhYjEyNg0KDQpJbnRlcm5hdGlv bmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLg0KDQoN Cl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 13:30:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F02A3A6884; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:30:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6EC3A6884 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:30:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.767 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.767 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.391, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, 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a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=hDpQZQSXRUZNpWuMQGBMGP07gWljeSHt5hQHhnOaFxmG4eY4WSa0w/s4JFm7sG34WJ GP6WvKKkeFHW7ZBfHiR8FhpsrsIowmio8qK+tRRyZMog4hgHnu/aMWrH2MRHcZu+bU6u nhzdZrV0JdD5nUBoQR0bPPu6j+Rj2rlgteua4= Received: by 10.151.12.4 with SMTP id p4mr18007572ybi.29.1215894659023; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807121330r2c6eb845r748fc4d773cab2e1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:30:58 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Martin Duerst" In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 605949aba7542e85 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1964963954==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1964963954== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_45460_30115235.1215894659029" ------=_Part_45460_30115235.1215894659029 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline 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Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF2A3A6941 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:38:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.034 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.034 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oS6e4GWP-ftA for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E0EA3A6872 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so1917851ywj.49 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:38:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=pNcjEqmG9y0stE7ISH3bwVaANd6T2gVzrS1B6qRzJs4=; b=J9BNJL/oOQwLfLY9d5a/db9C8lkCJH0ACRUzd4/KMWfoTooeTkPXXNYRMOveBYRil5 HWlqZ4yF3zOfW/CgG0HFe3ZI85daVhAhNxzkh1AH03cYI2CAY1a9t3/F59bmOwtOZ6Qq hFxtlNk4T1uCRSDcT1DKcJhzVesQMr20QRgZM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=AuyncW+FP14o1FfuSrbhqNO6fa22iolKQ4ogP3M22202vL5OTx2BLkXTPWQlQZKSfw R1wOFILw3Tn7KMqqVegpoVntdoGnCItbn7XhbayAmR/dtc/YhvnTY7S21U0Y41EGi47d u0T2o7LcNnjkRslRgGznCvzCk46zf6v0VfX38= Received: by 10.150.212.14 with SMTP id k14mr17952884ybg.139.1215895123720; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807121338mebfec09h60a08bffe9f0ddea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:38:43 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA6A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA6A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6ad364fec16ef968 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1133234403==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1133234403== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_45497_316781.1215895123723" ------=_Part_45497_316781.1215895123723 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Do we have a good reason for the last sentence? Mark On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > We have a bit of leftover text in the section on stability relating to > grandfathered tags. It says: > > -- > RFC 3066 tags that were deprecated prior to the adoption of [RFC4646] > (Phillips, A. and M. Davis, "Tags for Identifying Languages," September > 2006.) are part of the list of grandfathered tags, and their component > subtags were not included as registered variants (although they remain > eligible for registration). For example, the tag "art-lojban" was deprecated > in favor of the language subtag 'jbo'. > -- > > This no longer makes sense to me, as we previously say that the > grandfathered list is now closed and immutable. I replaced it with: > > -- > Many of the grandfathered tags are deprecated, indeed, they were deprecated > even before . For example, the tag > "art-lojban" was deprecated in favor of the primary language subtag 'jbo'. > These tags could have been made 'redundant' by registering some of their > subtags as 'variants'. The 'variant-like' subtags in the grandfathered > registrations SHALL NOT be registered in the future, even with a similar or > identical meaning. > -- > > Thoughts? > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_45497_316781.1215895123723 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Do we have a good reason for the last sentence?

Mark

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
We have a bit of leftover text in the section on stability relating to grandfathered tags. It says:

--
RFC 3066 tags that were deprecated prior to the adoption of [RFC4646] (Phillips, A. and M. Davis, "Tags for Identifying Languages," September 2006.) are part of the list of grandfathered tags, and their component subtags were not included as registered variants (although they remain eligible for registration). For example, the tag "art-lojban" was deprecated in favor of the language subtag 'jbo'.
--

This no longer makes sense to me, as we previously say that the grandfathered list is now closed and immutable. I replaced it with:

--
Many of the grandfathered tags are deprecated, indeed, they were deprecated even before <xref target="RFC4646"></xref>. For example, the tag "art-lojban" was deprecated in favor of the primary language subtag 'jbo'. These tags could have been made 'redundant' by registering some of their subtags as 'variants'. The 'variant-like' subtags in the grandfathered registrations SHALL NOT be registered in the future, even with a similar or identical meaning.
--

Thoughts?

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_45497_316781.1215895123723-- --===============1133234403== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1133234403==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 13:44:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998073A6934; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:44:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4DBC3A6904 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:44:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.592 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.592 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.994, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AmYhFDoldljW for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE4B3A695C for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,351,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="9379441" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 12 Jul 2008 20:44:53 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6CKiqJB009608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:44:52 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:44:52 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:44:50 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... Thread-Index: AcjkX0f0W+FkL+4TTGezQDq9NNSgPwAACQGg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA70@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA6A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807121338mebfec09h60a08bffe9f0ddea@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807121338mebfec09h60a08bffe9f0ddea@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... 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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0702705500==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 13:47:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D85933A68A2; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:47:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816253A683A for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:47:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.03 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.03 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fAu3N-uGMv10 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB543A694B for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so1918763ywj.49 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:47:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=I+zloOARzDV052ZGpzCNgs4wZa0LvbTq6VXwjqcnD6k=; b=KhMhDiHXE2uxnRkXRfMniHoDIK0pkVbgT3oAzY9f8ZTIhN/6jtO0eFSbQKcMEqSYzh wz2yanA+jEm9mC9k2gq0viJXbKVRppzq3avFz2afx4nSRBeDTBb/waWRCf+Eb5LteKXn /C/aoubOoTFgUuYKBHAFhLSadFyiS5B44KSv4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=W/UolhwCXjUBhq6Gqs67mUqJxw9IVOZZqx9dBxxtxYqcpCu7Hu2wN0lCxPNzvFh+z1 MKkjr9NrnjJkfZp+kO9rcT/ag6yMOhYhemVD249tkrrLnT9NmIRs8nZdrF4EIv7N2327 tVmqvtXCAFRYML5Urihmkl7PuG7dNTYcVA7Qs= Received: by 10.150.147.9 with SMTP id u9mr17916107ybd.193.1215895649174; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807121347o1fd89be5hcfc5a10c6b26d706@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:47:29 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA70@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA6A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807121338mebfec09h60a08bffe9f0ddea@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA70@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0a41598e5a57e891 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... 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ZGl2PgoKPC9kaXY+CgoKPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPjwvZGl2Pjxicj48L2Rpdj4K ------=_Part_45525_19559530.1215895649158-- --===============1261404562== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1261404562==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 14:25:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9E63A6904; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:25:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D1D3A6904 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:25:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uj3cfylh1PLp for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5E23A680C for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:26:07 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:26:08 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "Phillips, Addison" , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:26:06 -0700 Thread-Topic: suppress-script and extlang Thread-Index: AcjkVSqBfXLZAHTLSdOioYI3xPDM+gAEKkLw Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] suppress-script and extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Can hant be inferred for cmn-HK / zh-cmn-HK? - Shawn -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phillips, Addison Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 12:26 PM To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] suppress-script and extlang Can an extlang have a suppress-script? Our text doesn't currently allow it. Note: I'm doing a stem-to-stern edit this weekend, which means lots of editorial tweaks to the text. Most of these have to do with reordering information inside of sections to make more sense or finding more appropriate places for our vast number of "Note" paragraphs (so that I can remove the constant use of "Note:"). Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 14:35:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610B33A6904; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:35:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8718A3A6837 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:35:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.573 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.573 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dzp6pWKpxybg for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8F83A6904 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,351,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="86740660" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 12 Jul 2008 21:35:44 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6CLZfZo014588; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:35:41 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:35:41 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Shawn Steele , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:35:39 -0700 Thread-Topic: suppress-script and extlang Thread-Index: AcjkVSqBfXLZAHTLSdOioYI3xPDM+gAEKkLwAAAIASA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA88@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] suppress-script and extlang X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Can hant be inferred for cmn-HK / zh-cmn-HK? No. Just as "zh-HK" doesn't mean "Cantonese". It's precisely this kind of artificial inference that led to script subtags (and this whole project) in the first place. That doesn't help with Suppress-Script, of course--this field is guidance for when NOT to use script. We would not put Suppress-Script onto one of the Chinese languages because we know that there are two writing systems being used. I was thinking more of the Arabic languages, most of which are written in Arabic script predominantly. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: Shawn Steele [mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com] > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 2:26 PM > To: Phillips, Addison; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: suppress-script and extlang > > Can hant be inferred for cmn-HK / zh-cmn-HK? > > - Shawn > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Phillips, Addison > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 12:26 PM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] suppress-script and extlang > > Can an extlang have a suppress-script? Our text doesn't currently > allow it. > > Note: I'm doing a stem-to-stern edit this weekend, which means lots > of editorial tweaks to the text. Most of these have to do with > reordering information inside of sections to make more sense or > finding more appropriate places for our vast number of "Note" > paragraphs (so that I can remove the constant use of "Note:"). > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 15:35:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8363A68A2; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:35:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984E63A6892 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:35:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.130, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X62Sk1AXxG2L for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B0E3A6826 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:36:01 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:36:01 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:35:57 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: Acjj+aDzJKeOqXLGTu2PY6XeTMaHlwAQAuZwAAz4GTA= Message-ID: References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > I agree with Martin. There is a difference between differently ordered > variants. Indeed, this is sometimes significant, which you can see in > the schedule of prefixes for Slovenian variants. That is, some variants > modify the meaning of other variants that precede them. See my earlier mail about this. It is not the ordering per se that causes one variant to modify the meaning of the other; we simply have a syntactic-validation convention about ordering in those cases, using Prefix to declare in the registry that co-occurrence restriction. And in those cases, for which a Prefix is specified for the more-specific variant, only one order is expected: we don't *require* that order, but I wouldn't expect anybody to use such a pair of subtags in the opposite order. And, for instance, even if someone *did* tag content as "sl-biske-rozaj", while that could impact matching behaviour in some context, there would not be any conventional semantic distinction between that tag and "sl-rozaj-biske". It would even seem reasonable to me to have an analog to Unicode's conformance clause C6: C6 A process shall not assume that the interpretations of two canonical-equivalent character sequences are distinct. I.e., that we declare explicitly that "sl-rozaj-biske" shall not be assumed to have a distinct interpretation from "sl-biske-rozaj" -- after all, unless we explicitly declare some conventional semantic associated with that ordering distinction, there *isn't any* conventional semantic associated with it. An alternative to such a semantic constraint would be to impose a syntactic constraint along these lines: if subtag X is part of the Prefix value of subtag Y, then tags of the form ...Y...X... MUST NOT be used / are not valid. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 15:37:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7276B3A6884; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:37:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3B13A6884 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:37:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.426 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.426 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.428, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i-76mCSORNdO for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC50B3A6826 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:37:48 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:37:48 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:37:44 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjkXjUWLZc991XfTn+o0r5qvo3YzQAEarFg Message-ID: References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <30b660a20807121330r2c6eb845r748fc4d773cab2e1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807121330r2c6eb845r748fc4d773cab2e1@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1204926056==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1204926056==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 15:43:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314E33A68F3; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:43:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117DB3A68F3 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:43:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.718 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.718 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.120, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7i7mIpL8+H4T for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BA43A6884 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:43:54 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:43:54 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:43:50 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... Thread-Index: AcjkYJShk3QF6rvjR3y7R7qRMcG3qQAD5ntQ Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA6A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807121338mebfec09h60a08bffe9f0ddea@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA70@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807121347o1fd89be5hcfc5a10c6b26d706@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807121347o1fd89be5hcfc5a10c6b26d706@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... 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(PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.727 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.727 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.129, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cTIFSMhWhCTa for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1B43A67AF for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:05:58 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,351,1212364800"; d="scan'208,217";a="75677709" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 12 Jul 2008 23:06:17 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6CN6Flh020275 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:06:15 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:06:15 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:06:12 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... Thread-Index: AcjkYJShk3QF6rvjR3y7R7qRMcG3qQAD5ntQAACzHHA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA6A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807121338mebfec09h60a08bffe9f0ddea@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA70@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807121347o1fd89be5hcfc5a10c6b26d706@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... 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with ESMTP id 96C7B28C131; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:50:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF9028C160 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:50:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.716 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.716 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sam1M7WYWpZY for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D973A69A1 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:50:44 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:50:45 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:50:40 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... Thread-Index: AcjkYJShk3QF6rvjR3y7R7qRMcG3qQAD5ntQAACzHHAAAcKH0A== Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA6A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807121338mebfec09h60a08bffe9f0ddea@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA70@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807121347o1fd89be5hcfc5a10c6b26d706@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... 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Cg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KDQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579563391BF855NAEXMSGC117re_-- --===============0754866599== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0754866599==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 21:13:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BAD3A694A; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:13:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C5E3A694A for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:13:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.026 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.026 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o53RdorpGBuT for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD243A6407 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so1959390ywj.49 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:13:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=2pKPG7oDrpGd0lOZZjJWY56WPvylnnRh8Jh5fS1xWiM=; b=jh7BqmvtzLLBURyNVCOky0RwVNGIx5Hj/RvYScVvuGjcP/r2/YLhRXmdbT8xpZXh9B 615IZ5GvB5JayOkVOpBIIXkxuDZDLUtluPQgk3YdXwP/25URgnu6b22ZRQpihAb66Bi9 sSGWL2Nzd7eUzsN3xJHwa4yOu/u91OY1Ru3Xk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=QDsdx0IC9w6ooNDINIOCgXyyhz2ldvq9ZZcHxeTsWLL28q0xf01hXkwCcTiBj3yGLi s7c5iSn6Y9gV36WwS5qPLuUAzXc5sLq9UWkEaE1mpcyR33slRyziNwUDj5i8A2tjNrML ++u9cIQmct/DcWHURnJTyv7mtOE07Y9fVuMWo= Received: by 10.150.79.22 with SMTP id c22mr18287524ybb.160.1215922405745; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807122113l2602b00bq52295d02badf3a40@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:13:25 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: cc8ebf99648255df Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1671735058==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1671735058== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_46597_16283001.1215922405760" ------=_Part_46597_16283001.1215922405760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I would be happy with the equivalent of C6. Mark On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Peter Constable wrote: > > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > > > I agree with Martin. There is a difference between differently ordered > > variants. Indeed, this is sometimes significant, which you can see in > > the schedule of prefixes for Slovenian variants. That is, some variants > > modify the meaning of other variants that precede them. > > See my earlier mail about this. It is not the ordering per se that causes > one variant to modify the meaning of the other; we simply have a > syntactic-validation convention about ordering in those cases, using Prefix > to declare in the registry that co-occurrence restriction. And in those > cases, for which a Prefix is specified for the more-specific variant, only > one order is expected: we don't *require* that order, but I wouldn't expect > anybody to use such a pair of subtags in the opposite order. And, for > instance, even if someone *did* tag content as "sl-biske-rozaj", while that > could impact matching behaviour in some context, there would not be any > conventional semantic distinction between that tag and "sl-rozaj-biske". It > would even seem reasonable to me to have an analog to Unicode's conformance > clause C6: > > C6 A process shall not assume that the interpretations of two > canonical-equivalent character > sequences are distinct. > > I.e., that we declare explicitly that "sl-rozaj-biske" shall not be assumed > to have a distinct interpretation from "sl-biske-rozaj" -- after all, unless > we explicitly declare some conventional semantic associated with that > ordering distinction, there *isn't any* conventional semantic associated > with it. > > An alternative to such a semantic constraint would be to impose a syntactic > constraint along these lines: if subtag X is part of the Prefix value of > subtag Y, then tags of the form ...Y...X... MUST NOT be used / are not > valid. > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_46597_16283001.1215922405760 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I would be happy with the equivalent of C6.

Mark

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]

> I agree with Martin. There is a difference between differently ordered
> variants. Indeed, this is sometimes significant, which you can see in
> the schedule of prefixes for Slovenian variants. That is, some variants
> modify the meaning of other variants that precede them.

See my earlier mail about this. It is not the ordering per se that causes one variant to modify the meaning of the other; we simply have a syntactic-validation convention about ordering in those cases, using Prefix to declare in the registry that co-occurrence restriction. And in those cases, for which a Prefix is specified for the more-specific variant, only one order is expected: we don't *require* that order, but I wouldn't expect anybody to use such a pair of subtags in the opposite order. And, for instance, even if someone *did* tag content as "sl-biske-rozaj", while that could impact matching behaviour in some context, there would not be any conventional semantic distinction between that tag and "sl-rozaj-biske". It would even seem reasonable to me to have an analog to Unicode's conformance clause C6:

C6 A process shall not assume that the interpretations of two canonical-equivalent character
sequences are distinct.

I.e., that we declare explicitly that "sl-rozaj-biske" shall not be assumed to have a distinct interpretation from "sl-biske-rozaj" -- after all, unless we explicitly declare some conventional semantic associated with that ordering distinction, there *isn't any* conventional semantic associated with it.

An alternative to such a semantic constraint would be to impose a syntactic constraint along these lines: if subtag X is part of the Prefix value of subtag Y, then tags of the form ...Y...X... MUST NOT be used / are not valid.



Peter
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------=_Part_46597_16283001.1215922405760-- --===============1671735058== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1671735058==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 23:33:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933633A6859; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:33:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9883A6859 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:33:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F-GcLCSMWEhT for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276523A6820 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KHv9n-0005hl-Ng; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:34:03 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:34:03 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20080713063403.GF22761@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA6A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807121338mebfec09h60a08bffe9f0ddea@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA70@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807121347o1fd89be5hcfc5a10c6b26d706@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] obsolete grandfathered values... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIHNjcmlwc2l0OgoKPiBXZWxsLCBJ4oCZdmUgbm8gcGFydGljdWxhciBv YmplY3Rpb24gdG8gYWRkaW5nIHN1Y2ggbGFuZ3VhZ2UuCgorMQotLSAKSm9obiBDb3dhbiAgICAg aHR0cDovL2NjaWwub3JnL35jb3dhbiAgICBjb3dhbkBjY2lsLm9yZwpNb25kYXkgd2Ugd2F0Y2gt YSBGaXJlZmx5J3MgaG91c2UsIGJ1dCBoZSBubyBjb21lIG91dC4gIEhlIHdhc24ndCBob21lLgpU dWVzZGF5IHdlIGdvIHRvIHRoZSBiYWxsIGdhbWUsIGJ1dCBoZSBmb29sIHVzLiAgSGUgbm8gc2hv dyB1cC4gIFdlZG5lc2RheSBoZQpnbyB0byB0aGUgYmFsbCBnYW1lLCBhbmQgd2UgZm9vbCBoaW0u ICBXZSBubyBzaG93IHVwLiAgVGh1cnNkYXkgd2FzIGEKZG91YmxlLWhlYWRlci4gIE5vYm9keSBz aG93IHVwLiAgRnJpZGF5IGl0IHJhaW5lZCBhbGwgZGF5LiAgVGhlcmUgd2FzIG5vIGJhbGwKZ2Ft ZSwgc28gd2Ugc3RheWVkIGhvbWUgYW5kIHdlIGxpc3RlbmVkIHRvIGl0IG9uLWEgdGhlIHJhZGlv LiAgLS1DaGljb2xpbmkKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 03:07:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B653A6B73; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:07:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB48D3A6B73 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:07:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.544 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.544 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T5V1ogMtfi1O for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72AE83A6949 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6FA7UIi012301 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:07:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 1975_d622b4bc_5255_11dd_9257_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:07:30 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:46399) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:01:29 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:55:57 +0900 To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <20080709190525.GA9717@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091306t9ac2e12ycc855efb9c4a04f8@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BB64CA9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807091350q42bbb1d4wce2832b714fb0788@mail.gmail.com> <20080709210621.GI4132@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 07:35 08/07/13, Peter Constable wrote: >> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > >> I agree with Martin. There is a difference between differently ordered >> variants. Indeed, this is sometimes significant, which you can see in >> the schedule of prefixes for Slovenian variants. That is, some variants >> modify the meaning of other variants that precede them. > >See my earlier mail about this. It is not the ordering per se that causes >one variant to modify the meaning of the other; we simply have a >syntactic-validation convention about ordering in those cases, using Prefix >to declare in the registry that co-occurrence restriction. And in those >cases, for which a Prefix is specified for the more-specific variant, only >one order is expected: we don't *require* that order, but I wouldn't expect >anybody to use such a pair of subtags in the opposite order. And, for >instance, even if someone *did* tag content as "sl-biske-rozaj", while that >could impact matching behaviour in some context, there would not be any >conventional semantic distinction between that tag and "sl-rozaj-biske". It >would even seem reasonable to me to have an analog to Unicode's conformance >clause C6: > >C6 A process shall not assume that the interpretations of two >canonical-equivalent character >sequences are distinct. The main processes that are relevant to our work are defined in RFC 4647. They wouldn't pass muster, they assume (implicitly) that the order of subtags matters. I hope you don't propose that we rewrite RFC 4647 (and all the implementations of the various things described therein). Regards, Martin. >I.e., that we declare explicitly that "sl-rozaj-biske" shall not be assumed >to have a distinct interpretation from "sl-biske-rozaj" -- after all, >unless we explicitly declare some conventional semantic associated with >that ordering distinction, there *isn't any* conventional semantic >associated with it. > >An alternative to such a semantic constraint would be to impose a syntactic >constraint along these lines: if subtag X is part of the Prefix value of >subtag Y, then tags of the form ...Y...X... MUST NOT be used / are not valid. > > > >Peter >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 07:43:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D73C3A692E; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:43:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27BEF3A6943 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:43:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.962 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.962 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.586, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wla8D+uMIImM for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com (ti-out-0910.google.com [209.85.142.189]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39DF23A692E for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id a6so3775006tib.25 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:43:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=ZMTbgATb3aWIYYjLIs+3B6Q3MjLmUSAMPQhxziklV1Y=; b=nwA/aCm09i1dIubLSPb2cLZEOicHOf1/A+NBtfPIj6sGQUE9o49CVd8WaBo7sLW8Sw dru+0ZhRGyWmH9AjS7p1XpAzddWGV+YH9pm3412O844vkZq6mwx4mS3RFZHXia0vDzjH 9Ct6D+Q4kC9BYMhaw8bKIpEpaq25ROL6Wyq8o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=KWvn+jXz4giH4ar6aTs+bgQfqPFOgC8hhdQ/YZl7VymmiPT2lw1kobjOIdbS7vItU7 1UxmUwPcpe1aCWTbuqgNrjrOR6nX2FnNf4SxEklHkaXtu3zsoW4EvwMI/7L0w9w6MH/X 4FnhUunuainrp+gtWjgW0o54lVOf2rozdhcRw= Received: by 10.150.58.17 with SMTP id g17mr358907yba.172.1216133027618; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:43:47 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Martin Duerst" In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5ad3b2525fe10731 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0089400532==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0089400532== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3626_16204753.1216133027609" ------=_Part_3626_16204753.1216133027609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That is why I've been saying we need a canonical order. You still haven't addressed the questions I had for you: So what it comes down to is: 1. If you think that there is a semantic difference between de-fonipa-1996 and de-1996-fonipa, what is that difference supposed to be? 2. And if there is no difference, what is the preferred order, so that we promote interoperability? 3. Or do you just think that variants are so unimportant that it doesn't matter? Mark On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:55 AM, Martin Duerst wrote: > At 07:35 08/07/13, Peter Constable wrote: > >> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > > > >> I agree with Martin. There is a difference between differently ordered > >> variants. Indeed, this is sometimes significant, which you can see in > >> the schedule of prefixes for Slovenian variants. That is, some variants > >> modify the meaning of other variants that precede them. > > > >See my earlier mail about this. It is not the ordering per se that causes > >one variant to modify the meaning of the other; we simply have a > >syntactic-validation convention about ordering in those cases, using > Prefix > >to declare in the registry that co-occurrence restriction. And in those > >cases, for which a Prefix is specified for the more-specific variant, only > >one order is expected: we don't *require* that order, but I wouldn't > expect > >anybody to use such a pair of subtags in the opposite order. And, for > >instance, even if someone *did* tag content as "sl-biske-rozaj", while > that > >could impact matching behaviour in some context, there would not be any > >conventional semantic distinction between that tag and "sl-rozaj-biske". > It > >would even seem reasonable to me to have an analog to Unicode's > conformance > >clause C6: > > > >C6 A process shall not assume that the interpretations of two > >canonical-equivalent character > >sequences are distinct. > > The main processes that are relevant to our work are defined > in RFC 4647. They wouldn't pass muster, they assume (implicitly) > that the order of subtags matters. > > I hope you don't propose that we rewrite RFC 4647 (and all the > implementations of the various things described therein). > > Regards, Martin. > > >I.e., that we declare explicitly that "sl-rozaj-biske" shall not be > assumed > >to have a distinct interpretation from "sl-biske-rozaj" -- after all, > >unless we explicitly declare some conventional semantic associated with > >that ordering distinction, there *isn't any* conventional semantic > >associated with it. > > > >An alternative to such a semantic constraint would be to impose a > syntactic > >constraint along these lines: if subtag X is part of the Prefix value of > >subtag Y, then tags of the form ...Y...X... MUST NOT be used / are not > valid. > > > > > > > >Peter > >_______________________________________________ > >Ltru mailing list > >Ltru@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_3626_16204753.1216133027609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
That is why I've been saying we need a canonical order. You still haven't addressed the questions I had for you:

So what it comes down to is:
    1. If you think that there is a semantic difference between de-fonipa-1996 and de-1996-fonipa, what is that difference supposed to be?
    2. And if there is no difference, what is the preferred order, so that we promote interoperability?
    3. Or do you just think that variants are so unimportant that it doesn't matter?
Mark

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:55 AM, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
At 07:35 08/07/13, Peter Constable wrote:
>> From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
>
>> I agree with Martin. There is a difference between differently ordered
>> variants. Indeed, this is sometimes significant, which you can see in
>> the schedule of prefixes for Slovenian variants. That is, some variants
>> modify the meaning of other variants that precede them.
>
>See my earlier mail about this. It is not the ordering per se that causes
>one variant to modify the meaning of the other; we simply have a
>syntactic-validation convention about ordering in those cases, using Prefix
>to declare in the registry that co-occurrence restriction. And in those
>cases, for which a Prefix is specified for the more-specific variant, only
>one order is expected: we don't *require* that order, but I wouldn't expect
>anybody to use such a pair of subtags in the opposite order. And, for
>instance, even if someone *did* tag content as "sl-biske-rozaj", while that
>could impact matching behaviour in some context, there would not be any
>conventional semantic distinction between that tag and "sl-rozaj-biske". It
>would even seem reasonable to me to have an analog to Unicode's conformance
>clause C6:
>
>C6 A process shall not assume that the interpretations of two
>canonical-equivalent character
>sequences are distinct.

The main processes that are relevant to our work are defined
in RFC 4647. They wouldn't pass muster, they assume (implicitly)
that the order of subtags matters.

I hope you don't propose that we rewrite RFC 4647 (and all the
implementations of the various things described therein).

Regards,   Martin.

>I.e., that we declare explicitly that "sl-rozaj-biske" shall not be assumed
>to have a distinct interpretation from "sl-biske-rozaj" -- after all,
>unless we explicitly declare some conventional semantic associated with
>that ordering distinction, there *isn't any* conventional semantic
>associated with it.
>
>An alternative to such a semantic constraint would be to impose a syntactic
>constraint along these lines: if subtag X is part of the Prefix value of
>subtag Y, then tags of the form ...Y...X... MUST NOT be used / are not valid.
>
>
>
>Peter
>_______________________________________________
>Ltru mailing list
>Ltru@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
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------=_Part_3626_16204753.1216133027609-- --===============0089400532== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0089400532==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 08:19:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498883A689F; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:19:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6283A689F for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:19:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rRzp9Smr6TGi for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B086D3A677C for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KImJk-0007Bj-N3; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:19:52 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:19:52 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > 1. If you think that there is a semantic difference between > de-fonipa-1996 and de-1996-fonipa, what is that difference > supposed to be? The burden of persuasion runs the other way. In order to permit mechanical rearrangement of variant subtags without semantic loss, it's necessary to show not that a particular case of rearrangement changes nothing, but that *every* case of rearrangement changes nothing. And since prediction is very difficult, especially about the future, that's not easy to show. As we both know, it was this sort of lack of forethought (probably unavoidable at the time, to be sure) that caused Unicode canonical order to wind up as a purely conventional ordering no longer tied to either presentational utility or semantic meaningfulness, contrary to its original intention. I wouldn't like to see that happen to BCP 47 canonicalization. (What is more, a tag with both 'fonipa' and '1996' is self-contradictory, since German cannot be expressed at one and the same time in its 1996 conventional orthography and in IPA. Nonsense remains nonsense no matter how much you shake it up, and reasoning from a nonsensical case isn't going to lead to a sensible result.) -- Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies! John Cowan Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. --Coleridge (tr. Politzer) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 08:42:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51AD93A6996; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:42:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DDE13A6996 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:42:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.023 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.023 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0pWc4ZCh-YK3 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1EEF3A691C for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so187577qwe.31 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:43:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Fo+//SZD3CP4+8CfZT2nDQetso880iOLraldDJbBz/w=; b=V6Tw9VK0ciBvn5gPl3vbGXw72O05JTvYVka4NVvQrL3qWqzPKMGXTKPvxE6+07GObI owbG1jUz1YaHOyK1bZVFm0gify2owL3ZbkGbZT+1nD6pOJZHuP3n0193QGQ/808e7qxh CqlK1AoTUySqZpqP/HWTnowwRCf6dzyyQ99Lg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=CB+otmUX8lTr6AuJQxFXbe25OfxAQH9iXAbireSL3y7DmNbd8R9WDRvcYWzFDFkDKB t1yScJKQFF5ZQ4ZTCpy74GPgDyGfILDiDA0Jf3eYWkWWOINnTSp+9XIwobvZmHKwtCFH +gJg9DiYiO53QbKjzTfJ+VwJxCteE2uAOCDEM= Received: by 10.150.82.42 with SMTP id f42mr435091ybb.197.1216136585582; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:43:05 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: d9fc43743ee51031 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0446834417==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0446834417== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4549_15535906.1216136585603" ------=_Part_4549_15535906.1216136585603 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm just confused by this. If order is supposed to be semantically relevant, *what* is it exactly that establishes what each order means (V1-V2 vs V2-V1), if not BCP47? Google? Microsoft? the DOD? Unicode ordering is not necessarily a good model, since it applies to characters that reflect real usage, whereas BCP47 is completely responsible for the meaning and syntax of these subtags. It sounds to me like what people are saying is that multiple variants are not important enough to worry about -- if so, then I'm fine with that. My main concern is whether to have an API that returns a set or a list for variants; if BCP47 leaves it up in the air, then we can just use a set, since the implementation is simpler, and we won't then return false inequalities. Mark On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:19 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > 1. If you think that there is a semantic difference between > > de-fonipa-1996 and de-1996-fonipa, what is that difference > > supposed to be? > > The burden of persuasion runs the other way. In order to permit > mechanical rearrangement of variant subtags without semantic loss, > it's necessary to show not that a particular case of rearrangement > changes nothing, but that *every* case of rearrangement changes nothing. > And since prediction is very difficult, especially about the future, > that's not easy to show. > > As we both know, it was this sort of lack of forethought (probably > unavoidable at the time, to be sure) that caused Unicode canonical > order to wind up as a purely conventional ordering no longer tied to > either presentational utility or semantic meaningfulness, contrary to > its original intention. I wouldn't like to see that happen to BCP 47 > canonicalization. > > (What is more, a tag with both 'fonipa' and '1996' is self-contradictory, > since German cannot be expressed at one and the same time in its 1996 > conventional orthography and in IPA. Nonsense remains nonsense no matter > how much you shake it up, and reasoning from a nonsensical case isn't > going to lead to a sensible result.) > > -- > Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies! John Cowan > Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, > Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. --Coleridge (tr. Politzer) > ------=_Part_4549_15535906.1216136585603 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
I'm just confused by this. If order is supposed to be semantically relevant, *what* is it exactly that establishes what each order means (V1-V2 vs V2-V1), if not BCP47? Google? Microsoft? the DOD?

Unicode ordering is not necessarily a good model, since it applies to characters that reflect real usage, whereas BCP47 is completely responsible for the meaning and syntax of these subtags.

It sounds to me like what people are saying is that multiple variants are not important enough to worry about -- if so, then I'm fine with that. My main concern is whether to have an API that returns a set or a list for variants; if BCP47 leaves it up in the air, then we can just use a set, since the implementation is simpler, and we won't then return false inequalities.

Mark

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:19 AM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

>    1. If you think that there is a semantic difference between
>       de-fonipa-1996 and de-1996-fonipa, what is that difference
>       supposed to be?

The burden of persuasion runs the other way.  In order to permit
mechanical rearrangement of variant subtags without semantic loss,
it's necessary to show not that a particular case of rearrangement
changes nothing, but that *every* case of rearrangement changes nothing.
And since prediction is very difficult, especially about the future,
that's not easy to show.

As we both know, it was this sort of lack of forethought (probably
unavoidable at the time, to be sure) that caused Unicode canonical
order to wind up as a purely conventional ordering no longer tied to
either presentational utility or semantic meaningfulness, contrary to
its original intention.  I wouldn't like to see that happen to BCP 47
canonicalization.

(What is more, a tag with both 'fonipa' and '1996' is self-contradictory,
since German cannot be expressed at one and the same time in its 1996
conventional orthography and in IPA.  Nonsense remains nonsense no matter
how much you shake it up, and reasoning from a nonsensical case isn't
going to lead to a sensible result.)

--
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies!    John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,     http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau,
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.            --Coleridge (tr. Politzer)

------=_Part_4549_15535906.1216136585603-- --===============0446834417== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0446834417==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 08:48:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AEAF3A68EE; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:48:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04DD53A6B26 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:48:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.722 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.722 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.123, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f7LaMFtHoa7s for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB9E3A68EE for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:48:33 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,367,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="76857114" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 15 Jul 2008 15:48:58 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6FFmoH1006907 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:48:53 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:48:50 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:48:25 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Martin Duerst Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:48:47 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjmiTsUsw8EoE/7Q9eo+hxBRnQabgAArIQA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin suggested: -- The main processes that are relevant to our work are defined in RFC 4647. They wouldn't pass muster, they assume (implicitly) that the order of subtags matters. -- And Mark responded: -- That is why I've been saying we need a canonical order. You still haven't addressed the questions I had for you: So what it comes down to is: 1. If you think that there is a semantic difference between de-fonipa-1996 and de-1996-fonipa, what is that difference supposed to be? 2. And if there is no difference, what is the preferred order, so that we promote interoperability? 3. Or do you just think that variants are so unimportant that it doesn't matter? -- I think: 1. There isn't a semantic difference between these two tags, but there is a practical/procedural difference as Martin points out. I might as well point out that '1996' is mainly a spelling reform, so using it with 'fonipa' is kind of silly. The real issue is what we think a general-purpose variant modifies: i. the whole tag's meaning ii. the meaning of the preceding variant subtag(s) iii. the meaning of the primary language subtag iv. the meaning of some other subtag(s) We have different examples of some of these cases, out of a limited inventory of variants to consider. For (i), the order doesn't matter (consider 'fonipa'). For (ii) the order matters (consider 'biske'). For (iii) the order doesn't matter (consider 'boont'). For (iv) the order doesn't matter (consider 'monoton' as modifying 'Grek'??). That is: order usually doesn't matter *semantically*, except when it does. 2. I tend to think that subtags with a prefix stick closer to the tag than subtags without a prefix. That is, in your example, 'fonipa' modifies the tag "de-1996". A better example would be "en-boont-fonipa". So I would tend to recommend that you arrange the prefixed items first, according to their Prefix values ('rozaj' always comes before 'biske', both always come before '1994') and then arrange any general purpose variants after that ('fonipa' comes after the sequence '-rozaj-biske-1994'). 3. I tend to think that variants are relatively unimportant and that this matter probably isn't going to prove that problematic in the real world. In the real world, variants are rare and multiple variants exceedingly so. That doesn't mean we shouldn't handle the problem. Only that a very small minority of us will ever be bothered by it. Thus, I propose that in section 4.1 (Choice) we add this item: -- 6. Use variants sparingly and in the correct order. Most variant subtags have a Prefix field or fields that express the list of subtags that they are appropriate with. Variants SHOULD only be used with subtags that appear in one of these Prefix fields. If a variant lists another variant in one of its Prefix fields, it SHOULD appear after that variant in the language tag (where both occur). General purpose variants (those with no Prefix) SHOULD appear after any other variant subtags. Because variants are very specialized, using many of them together generally makes the tag so narrow as to override the additional precision gained. For example: the Slovenian variant 'rozaj' (Resian dialect) has a Prefix of 'sl'. Other Slovenian variants include 'biske' and '1994'. The subtag 'biske' lists "sl-rozaj" as a Prefix. The subtag '1994' lists both "sl-rozaj" and "sl-rozaj-biske" as a Prefix. Thus, the proper form of a tag that uses all three is "sl-rozaj-biske-1994". Putting the subtags into another order would interfere with interoperability, as well as the overall interpretation of the tag. -- And then in canonicalization say: -- 6. If more than one variant appears, order the variants according to their Prefix fields in the registry. In this order, if a variant appears in one of a variant's Prefix fields, it MUST appear in the tag preceding that variant. If none of the other variants appear in the tag, order it after any variants that have a prefix that matches the tag, otherwise preserving the original order selected by the user. For example, the tag "sl-monoton-fonipa-1994-biske-rozaj" would be reordered as "sl-rozaj-biske-1994-monoton-fonipa" because 'biske' lists 'rozaj' in its prefixes, but not '1994' and '1994' lists both 'biske' and 'rozaj'; 'monoton' is supposed to be used with 'el' (Greek) and 'fonipa' has no Prefix. Their original order is preserved. Note that this tag, considered as a whole, has no practical meaning. -- Comments? Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 08:55:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84783A69D2; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:55:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD8228C118 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:55:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7DT1uF5XOlbz for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694C03A6881 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so190953qwe.31 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:56:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=K7dkEfgkBgu0QNukov9zunrEMVwaIkr7+UslxI6w9tQ=; b=IuwiYcNTnP5C+3yq9ATPgnvttuXzWt0ZvyH8kMAIrXPOY26Ozk3oZ24kJQxhsafQJu Wyd0k336cN2HiV+Xhc4XtUbi1wq1PZg7nJgr8Hdos9i22Dr9QIVGqTGnLTDczuHyoTKo JKpyjFeel8HXh2G1sICaX+53GX5HA8DIrDhk8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=sK8bsfbzlBkaHnkv8gCFtIyEWXVtr0CoiOWSX3m6FkpiSriI8z+Q5buEvikxu3I7gG l6IQ+kI8EcPVHXTB0//UvrUc4fXyWkcXj2dgrXZgntr8fpg2HAFfO2XVT9/e7VtpBEj+ l1kjg5Y7zSOl6XQ0HdO3opS15u1F7zB3C8OFM= Received: by 10.150.52.2 with SMTP id z2mr511754ybz.44.1216137368875; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807150856s68bfcc4bga4c62e7f367bd496@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:56:08 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9c9afb28f0ceb4fd Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0514376145==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0514376145== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4668_24001508.1216137368890" ------=_Part_4668_24001508.1216137368890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That language looks good to me, except for one thing:"otherwise preserving the original order selected by the user" " => "otherwise use alphabetical order". Mark On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > Martin suggested: > -- > The main processes that are relevant to our work are defined > in RFC 4647. They wouldn't pass muster, they assume (implicitly) > that the order of subtags matters. > -- > > And Mark responded: > -- > That is why I've been saying we need a canonical order. You still haven't > addressed the questions I had for you: > > So what it comes down to is: > 1. If you think that there is a semantic difference between de-fonipa-1996 > and de-1996-fonipa, what is that difference supposed to be? > 2. And if there is no difference, what is the preferred order, so that we > promote interoperability? > 3. Or do you just think that variants are so unimportant that it doesn't > matter? > -- > > I think: > > 1. There isn't a semantic difference between these two tags, but there is a > practical/procedural difference as Martin points out. I might as well point > out that '1996' is mainly a spelling reform, so using it with 'fonipa' is > kind of silly. The real issue is what we think a general-purpose variant > modifies: > > i. the whole tag's meaning > ii. the meaning of the preceding variant subtag(s) > iii. the meaning of the primary language subtag > iv. the meaning of some other subtag(s) > > We have different examples of some of these cases, out of a limited > inventory of variants to consider. > > For (i), the order doesn't matter (consider 'fonipa'). For (ii) the order > matters (consider 'biske'). For (iii) the order doesn't matter (consider > 'boont'). For (iv) the order doesn't matter (consider 'monoton' as modifying > 'Grek'??). > > That is: order usually doesn't matter *semantically*, except when it does. > > 2. I tend to think that subtags with a prefix stick closer to the tag than > subtags without a prefix. That is, in your example, 'fonipa' modifies the > tag "de-1996". A better example would be "en-boont-fonipa". So I would tend > to recommend that you arrange the prefixed items first, according to their > Prefix values ('rozaj' always comes before 'biske', both always come before > '1994') and then arrange any general purpose variants after that ('fonipa' > comes after the sequence '-rozaj-biske-1994'). > > 3. I tend to think that variants are relatively unimportant and that this > matter probably isn't going to prove that problematic in the real world. In > the real world, variants are rare and multiple variants exceedingly so. That > doesn't mean we shouldn't handle the problem. Only that a very small > minority of us will ever be bothered by it. > > Thus, I propose that in section 4.1 (Choice) we add this item: > > -- > 6. Use variants sparingly and in the correct order. Most variant subtags > have a Prefix field or fields that express the list of subtags that they are > appropriate with. Variants SHOULD only be used with subtags that appear in > one of these Prefix fields. If a variant lists another variant in one of its > Prefix fields, it SHOULD appear after that variant in the language tag > (where both occur). General purpose variants (those with no Prefix) SHOULD > appear after any other variant subtags. Because variants are very > specialized, using many of them together generally makes the tag so narrow > as to override the additional precision gained. > > For example: the Slovenian variant 'rozaj' (Resian dialect) has a Prefix of > 'sl'. Other Slovenian variants include 'biske' and '1994'. The subtag > 'biske' lists "sl-rozaj" as a Prefix. The subtag '1994' lists both > "sl-rozaj" and "sl-rozaj-biske" as a Prefix. Thus, the proper form of a tag > that uses all three is "sl-rozaj-biske-1994". Putting the subtags into > another order would interfere with interoperability, as well as the overall > interpretation of the tag. > -- > > And then in canonicalization say: > -- > 6. If more than one variant appears, order the variants according to their > Prefix fields in the registry. In this order, if a variant appears in one of > a variant's Prefix fields, it MUST appear in the tag preceding that variant. > If none of the other variants appear in the tag, order it after any variants > that have a prefix that matches the tag, otherwise preserving the original > order selected by the user. For example, the tag > "sl-monoton-fonipa-1994-biske-rozaj" would be reordered as > "sl-rozaj-biske-1994-monoton-fonipa" because 'biske' lists 'rozaj' in its > prefixes, but not '1994' and '1994' lists both 'biske' and 'rozaj'; > 'monoton' is supposed to be used with 'el' (Greek) and 'fonipa' has no > Prefix. Their original order is preserved. Note that this tag, considered as > a whole, has no practical meaning. > -- > > > Comments? > > Addison > ------=_Part_4668_24001508.1216137368890 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
That language looks good to me, except for one thing:
"otherwise preserving the original order selected by the user" "
=>
"otherwise use alphabetical order". 

Mark

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
Martin suggested:
--
The main processes that are relevant to our work are defined
in RFC 4647. They wouldn't pass muster, they assume (implicitly)
that the order of subtags matters.
--

And Mark responded:
--
That is why I've been saying we need a canonical order. You still haven't addressed the questions I had for you:

So what it comes down to is:
1. If you think that there is a semantic difference between de-fonipa-1996 and de-1996-fonipa, what is that difference supposed to be?
2. And if there is no difference, what is the preferred order, so that we promote interoperability?
3. Or do you just think that variants are so unimportant that it doesn't matter?
--

I think:

1. There isn't a semantic difference between these two tags, but there is a practical/procedural difference as Martin points out. I might as well point out that '1996' is mainly a spelling reform, so using it with 'fonipa' is kind of silly. The real issue is what we think a general-purpose variant modifies:

 i. the whole tag's meaning
 ii. the meaning of the preceding variant subtag(s)
 iii. the meaning of the primary language subtag
 iv. the meaning of some other subtag(s)

We have different examples of some of these cases, out of a limited inventory of variants to consider.

For (i), the order doesn't matter (consider 'fonipa'). For (ii) the order matters (consider 'biske'). For (iii) the order doesn't matter (consider 'boont'). For (iv) the order doesn't matter (consider 'monoton' as modifying 'Grek'??).

That is: order usually doesn't matter *semantically*, except when it does.

2. I tend to think that subtags with a prefix stick closer to the tag than subtags without a prefix. That is, in your example, 'fonipa' modifies the tag "de-1996". A better example would be "en-boont-fonipa". So I would tend to recommend that you arrange the prefixed items first, according to their Prefix values ('rozaj' always comes before 'biske', both always come before '1994') and then arrange any general purpose variants after that ('fonipa' comes after the sequence '-rozaj-biske-1994').

3. I tend to think that variants are relatively unimportant and that this matter probably isn't going to prove that problematic in the real world. In the real world, variants are rare and multiple variants exceedingly so. That doesn't mean we shouldn't handle the problem. Only that a very small minority of us will ever be bothered by it.

Thus, I propose that in section 4.1 (Choice) we add this item:

--
6. Use variants sparingly and in the correct order. Most variant subtags have a Prefix field or fields that express the list of subtags that they are appropriate with. Variants SHOULD only be used with subtags that appear in one of these Prefix fields. If a variant lists another variant in one of its Prefix fields, it SHOULD appear after that variant in the language tag (where both occur). General purpose variants (those with no Prefix) SHOULD appear after any other variant subtags. Because variants are very specialized, using many of them together generally makes the tag so narrow as to override the additional precision gained.

For example: the Slovenian variant 'rozaj' (Resian dialect) has a Prefix of 'sl'. Other Slovenian variants include 'biske' and '1994'. The subtag 'biske' lists "sl-rozaj" as a Prefix. The subtag '1994' lists both "sl-rozaj" and "sl-rozaj-biske" as a Prefix. Thus, the proper form of a tag that uses all three is "sl-rozaj-biske-1994". Putting the subtags into another order would interfere with interoperability, as well as the overall interpretation of the tag.
--

And then in canonicalization say:
--
6. If more than one variant appears, order the variants according to their Prefix fields in the registry. In this order, if a variant appears in one of a variant's Prefix fields, it MUST appear in the tag preceding that variant. If none of the other variants appear in the tag, order it after any variants that have a prefix that matches the tag, otherwise preserving the original order selected by the user. For example, the tag "sl-monoton-fonipa-1994-biske-rozaj" would be reordered as "sl-rozaj-biske-1994-monoton-fonipa" because 'biske' lists 'rozaj' in its prefixes, but not '1994' and '1994' lists both 'biske' and 'rozaj'; 'monoton' is supposed to be used with 'el' (Greek) and 'fonipa' has no Prefix. Their original order is preserved. Note that this tag, considered as a whole, has no practical meaning.
--


Comments?

Addison

------=_Part_4668_24001508.1216137368890-- --===============0514376145== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0514376145==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 09:06:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FD03A68CC; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:06:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDD193A68CC for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:06:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JevW6JLoJ9ou for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 006443A6881 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KIn3K-00043k-He; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:06:58 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:06:58 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080715160658.GH18383@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > I'm just confused by this. If order is supposed to be semantically > relevant, It's not that it's necessarily semantically relevant. It's that it's a bad idea, considering the state of our ignorance, to *assume* it's going to be semantically irrelevant in all possible future cases (modulo the ones involving prefixes that Addison discussed). It's like asking "Is the order of XML child elements semantically relevant"? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Some schemas for documents where the order is irrelevant prescribe a fixed order so as to prevent user-specified channels from becoming a covert information channel; others don't prescribe a fixed order. Not having a general scheme for canonicalizing child-element order costs something, but the gain in flexibility is generally considered to outweigh it. > *what* is it exactly that establishes what each order means (V1-V2 vs > V2-V1), if not BCP47? Google? Microsoft? the DOD? Ietf-languages, and after them, the community of usage. > Unicode ordering is not necessarily a good model, since it applies > to characters that reflect real usage, whereas BCP47 is completely > responsible for the meaning and syntax of these subtags. But it is not responsible for the fact that '1996' and 'fonipa' are self-contradictory: it's real-word facts that determine that. > It sounds to me like what people are saying is that multiple variants > are not important enough to worry about -- if so, then I'm fine with > that. My main concern is whether to have an API that returns a set > or a list for variants; if BCP47 leaves it up in the air, then we can > just use a set, since the implementation is simpler, and we won't then > return false inequalities. Preserve the order; that way you may lose some rare opportunities for canonicalization, but you don't throw away information that's potentially valuable. LinkedHashSet is your friend. -- A witness cannot give evidence of his John Cowan age unless he can remember being born. cowan@ccil.org --Judge Blagden http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 09:26:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE463A6AD4; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:26:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A2F3A6A47 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:26:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.593 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.593 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.994, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gUswZ7VVSBLE for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E8D3A6A86 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:26:22 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,367,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="10907502" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 15 Jul 2008 16:26:22 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6FGQLpA016189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:26:21 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:26:20 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Mark Davis Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:26:17 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjmlNmkEpTKnE5hQZ+W+fm3NFZN1gAAZ89g Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE31380@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> <20080715160658.GH18383@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080715160658.GH18383@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > Preserve the order; that way you may lose some rare opportunities > for > canonicalization, but you don't throw away information that's > potentially > valuable. LinkedHashSet is your friend. +1 Note that my proposal, even if we were to do the "alphabetization thing" Mark proposes, is not a full reordering. There are several unaddressed edge cases in it. More-or-less, I did that on purpose. The subtag order has meaning (in a matching context). Excepting certain cases where we know what the meaning is (because it is registered), the only indication of the user's intent is the order we receive the subtags in. This plays well, please note, with existing matching implementations. For this to work reliably, you would have to revise the matching schemes to do the variant reordering. Readers of 4647 today expect that the basic range "de-zzzzz" does not select the tag "de-aaaaa-zzzzz". Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 09:53:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCBDF28C25F; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:53:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2183D28C25F for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:53:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.714 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.115, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oGFBfsKqCQQf for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5784A28C17D for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:54:00 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:53:57 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:53:56 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjmkYwmMBIB5ys7Sae/gTnrg6mdqwACTouw Message-ID: References: <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis > Unicode ordering is not necessarily a good model, since > it applies to characters that reflect real usage, whereas > BCP47 is completely responsible for the meaning and syntax > of these subtags. The biggest way that Unicode breaks down as an analogy is that combining marks can interact graphically in terms of positional ordering, which gives a very transparent metaphor for encoded ordering, whereas for our subtags there is no obvious metaphor for what subtag ordering might mean other than increasing degrees of specificity -- and that is typically relevant in cases where a prefix is given, and always irrelevant if the subtags are fully independent (e.g. rozaj and fonipa). Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 10:01:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C40B3A6AEF; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:01:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843F63A6A91 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:01:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.017 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.017 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id onO5e5HyWKqH for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F6C3A65A6 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so208232qwe.31 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:01:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=ShA+nGNkJkRo2X+kKjFv8FdkfNPuNSO47C0GAN5WiLM=; b=PRlua93rkT3EbXECwKhijSbYvWDpNiCJ+XyRXghKR6aGka77uzZ826zqzm07p7+ukT X8vjKoQLqD1oXyI83Mqvd8tC3ZjFlZfDtJj+omAmXGwYlclV+9cXXeIui6smG5rQH65C U238lWRKtkEpIfXEmNNhBa4jrHYN27KEPNNDg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=aHnnz14imWocirYSuqGjx14POwUpEer0Chxgm8E5TkHeAsYT+ObMDLSF5cNYeIO1zT MVyKCMIyi8hEUTGxMyyDnEvWfSjGBptrM1nmQNIZgXX+jTwnmuE/tapAdgYHqRhHN/2h pjas5LnVjC8+i2DOu0csSJSN72Ibz8nNxdRnI= Received: by 10.151.153.14 with SMTP id f14mr623256ybo.8.1216141283532; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807151001l72bfce6ag8f65c5fec40d1586@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:01:23 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080715160658.GH18383@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> <20080715160658.GH18383@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: e1e1e3f2755ce526 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2093233919==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2093233919== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5477_12498581.1216141283528" ------=_Part_5477_12498581.1216141283528 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mark On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:06 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis scripsit: > > > I'm just confused by this. If order is supposed to be semantically > > relevant, > > It's not that it's necessarily semantically relevant. It's that it's a > bad idea, considering the state of our ignorance, to *assume* it's going > to be semantically irrelevant in all possible future cases (modulo the > ones involving prefixes that Addison discussed). > > It's like asking "Is the order of XML child elements semantically > relevant"? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Some schemas for > documents where the order is irrelevant prescribe a fixed order so as > to prevent user-specified channels from becoming a covert information > channel; others don't prescribe a fixed order. Not having a general > scheme for canonicalizing child-element order costs something, but the > gain in flexibility is generally considered to outweigh it. It's bad to leave it open, because then we have no idea whether rearrangement is supposed to determine meaning or not. > > > > *what* is it exactly that establishes what each order means (V1-V2 vs > > V2-V1), if not BCP47? Google? Microsoft? the DOD? > > Ietf-languages, and after them, the community of usage. But then what you are calling for is a mechanism we don't have. Remember, what we are talking about is the ordering of variant subtags that do nothave a prefix relationship to one another. (If they do, then we have a canonical order.) Do you really expect Ietf-languages to specify that V1 means X if it is before V2, and means Y if it is after? Or that V1 needs to come before V2 although V1 is not a prefix of V2? What would be an example of what you think that ietf-languages would do? Would this be in the description? Or the "community of users"? How am I on the parsing end supposed to know that some nebulous "community of users" says that the ordering of V1 and V2 means Y. And frankly, the ordering of subtags is, in the vast majority of cases due to some GUI -- and the way in which the GUI presents how to build the tags has more to do with the ordering than what the users choose. And what is that GUI developer supposed to do? My take-away from all this is that multiple variants without prefix orderings are nearly so nebulous as to be not worth supporting until some later version clarifies them. > > > Unicode ordering is not necessarily a good model, since it applies > > to characters that reflect real usage, whereas BCP47 is completely > > responsible for the meaning and syntax of these subtags. > > But it is not responsible for the fact that '1996' and 'fonipa' are > self-contradictory: it's real-word facts that determine that. > > > It sounds to me like what people are saying is that multiple variants > > are not important enough to worry about -- if so, then I'm fine with > > that. My main concern is whether to have an API that returns a set > > or a list for variants; if BCP47 leaves it up in the air, then we can > > just use a set, since the implementation is simpler, and we won't then > > return false inequalities. > > Preserve the order; that way you may lose some rare opportunities for > canonicalization, but you don't throw away information that's potentially > valuable. LinkedHashSet is your friend. Of course one can use something like LinkedHashSet; the issue is whether one is preserving a material ordering or not. > > > -- > A witness cannot give evidence of his John Cowan > age unless he can remember being born. cowan@ccil.org > --Judge Blagden http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > ------=_Part_5477_12498581.1216141283528 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

Mark

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:06 AM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis scripsit:

> I'm just confused by this. If order is supposed to be semantically
> relevant,

It's not that it's necessarily semantically relevant.  It's that it's a
bad idea, considering the state of our ignorance, to *assume* it's going
to be semantically irrelevant in all possible future cases (modulo the
ones involving prefixes that Addison discussed).

It's like asking "Is the order of XML child elements semantically
relevant"?  Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.  Some schemas for
documents where the order is irrelevant prescribe a fixed order so as
to prevent user-specified channels from becoming a covert information
channel; others don't prescribe a fixed order.  Not having a general
scheme for canonicalizing child-element order costs something, but the
gain in flexibility is generally considered to outweigh it.

It's bad to leave it open, because then we have no idea whether rearrangement is supposed to determine meaning or not.


> *what* is it exactly that establishes what each order means (V1-V2 vs
> V2-V1), if not BCP47? Google? Microsoft? the DOD?

Ietf-languages, and after them, the community of usage.

But then what you are calling for is a mechanism we don't have. Remember, what we are talking about is the ordering of variant subtags that do not have a prefix relationship to one another. (If they do, then we have a canonical order.)

Do you really expect Ietf-languages to specify that V1 means X if it is before V2, and means Y if it is after? Or that V1 needs to come before V2 although V1 is not a prefix of V2? What would be an example of what you think that ietf-languages would do? Would this be in the description?

Or the "community of users"? How am I on the parsing end supposed to know that some nebulous "community of users" says that the ordering of V1 and V2 means Y. And frankly, the ordering of subtags is, in the vast majority of cases due to some GUI -- and the way in which the GUI presents how to build the tags has more to do with the ordering than what the users choose. And what is that GUI developer supposed to do?

My take-away from all this is that multiple variants without prefix orderings are nearly so nebulous as to be not worth supporting until some later version clarifies them.




> Unicode ordering is not necessarily a good model, since it applies
> to characters that reflect real usage, whereas BCP47 is completely
> responsible for the meaning and syntax of these subtags.

But it is not responsible for the fact that '1996' and 'fonipa' are
self-contradictory: it's real-word facts that determine that.

> It sounds to me like what people are saying is that multiple variants
> are not important enough to worry about -- if so, then I'm fine with
> that. My main concern is whether to have an API that returns a set
> or a list for variants; if BCP47 leaves it up in the air, then we can
> just use a set, since the implementation is simpler, and we won't then
> return false inequalities.

Preserve the order; that way you may lose some rare opportunities for
canonicalization, but you don't throw away information that's potentially
valuable.  LinkedHashSet is your friend.

Of course one can use something like LinkedHashSet; the issue is whether one is preserving a material ordering or not.


--
A witness cannot give evidence of his           John Cowan
age unless he can remember being born.          cowan@ccil.org
 --Judge Blagden                               http://www.ccil.org/~cowan

------=_Part_5477_12498581.1216141283528-- --===============2093233919== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2093233919==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 10:06:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCA43A6928; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:06:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1479F3A6B14 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:06:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5gQKsRvYc6WY for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515093A6AEF for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KInzk-0002Mj-P4; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:07:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:07:20 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20080715170720.GJ18383@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > The biggest way that Unicode breaks down as an analogy is that combining > marks can interact graphically in terms of positional ordering, which > gives a very transparent metaphor for encoded ordering, Alas, some combining marks that were thought to be in irrelevant positions turned out not to be so. The analogy isn't about the specifics: it's about assuming that something is meaningless that later on turns out to be meaningful. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan The whole of Gaul is quartered into three halves. --Julius Caesar _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 10:19:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F143A6B2D; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:19:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7D23A6B3A for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:19:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.712 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.712 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.113, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yhtr6oVPyBMV for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D8A3A6931 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:20:26 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:20:23 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:20:22 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjmnUuyfLujx2z8S8uiKOV14YgEZwAAP1/g Message-ID: References: <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> <20080715170720.GJ18383@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080715170720.GJ18383@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Alas, some combining marks that were thought to be in irrelevant > positions > turned out not to be so. This response to the point I made is ignoring the point I was making: that those particular aspects of Unicode are not analogous: encoding order in Unicode is a transparent metaphor for positional ordering, whereas there isn't a metaphor for ordering of our subtags. > The analogy isn't about the specifics: it's about assuming that > something > is meaningless that later on turns out to be meaningful. But the analogy breaks down for the reasons I've stated: encoding order has no obvious metaphor for our subtags, and so unless *we decide* to define some conventional semantic, there is no conventional semantic. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 11:07:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C343A68CD; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:07:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80C13A68CD for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:07:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.716 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.716 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.117, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9N9eRxSTH95g for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947243A67D4 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.30,367,1212364800"; d="scan'208";a="76926752" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 15 Jul 2008 18:08:02 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6FI80Zr026570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:08:00 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:08:00 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:07:58 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjmnUuyfLujx2z8S8uiKOV14YgEZwAAP1/gAADUYbA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE315A9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> <20080715170720.GJ18383@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org There is no conventional semantic. However, users might sometimes supply one. Generally this isn't a huge issue because true variants are rare in the wild and of limited practicality. While that could change, in practice most general variants are going to be nonsense together. At present, none of the general purpose variants make sense with one-another. While that will change over time, the utility of more than a couple together is going to always remain limited. When implementing language tags, I have always made the assumption that the subtag's order had some meaning to the user, even though my implementation could not know what it was. All of the other subtags are canonically ordered in a tag, after all---extlang, private use, and extension sequences have to remain in the same order. Why would variants be any different? And somehow I don't think it is a good thing that canonicalizing processors produce a vastly different result from non-canonicalizing ones when that result is not measurably better (it is measurably better to match a request for en-BU also to the tag en-MM, etc.) I've had the opportunity to recommend various of the matching schemes to different working groups. RFC 4647's compatibility with RFC 3066 has been a tremendous boon here. However, if some implementations start reordering subtags, they'll produce different results than those that are strictly of the "Tag Content Wisely" flavor (i.e. "you give me subtags and I'll remove them, one-by-one, until I find something"). The less I need the registry, the happier I am overall because that hews closer to the original language tag implementation requirements. So it makes me feel more comfortable saying that matching implementations don't need to worry about subtag (re-)ordering. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 10:20 AM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > > > > Alas, some combining marks that were thought to be in irrelevant > > positions > > turned out not to be so. > > This response to the point I made is ignoring the point I was > making: that those particular aspects of Unicode are not analogous: > encoding order in Unicode is a transparent metaphor for positional > ordering, whereas there isn't a metaphor for ordering of our > subtags. > > > > The analogy isn't about the specifics: it's about assuming that > > something > > is meaningless that later on turns out to be meaningful. > > But the analogy breaks down for the reasons I've stated: encoding > order has no obvious metaphor for our subtags, and so unless *we > decide* to define some conventional semantic, there is no > conventional semantic. > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 11:37:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D460B3A68C2; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB173A6AF6 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.212, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6cwjWKKWk+CQ for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from el-out-1112.google.com (el-out-1112.google.com [209.85.162.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE933A67CF for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so928482ele.13 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:38:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=sKDXqTgMoOWMM76nKcZhSPcqi0T33XkztysgT0Dusw8=; b=EM1R4/lfB5oD4bhNaYoO/kNMrsZTQm8L7Fo8J3LqME4VE/95PtHZdY3WJgSAI4utsi l3pT7qlMGMvJP3DUgXG87YHVe02/e49C84TZyJb2g0Za/5DfdadPnenVO6CBXYrwQnIB /PVwvZmFP9w7iyVzsnrde2ieKV91z8q0HWYr4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=LRh/cGBrXoFapuc8hSk7pop0OICsa0DLmhaW8rcShy73et82wnJDZ875VJKA9gIfzx DaRTLbTeO01QFhi8Lv0FKyI+5A44fh8Au/sQDhJcs/Rt9nSVwiW2g/FN3kIgIu9zC6Nn 5Ct3HYXxeVclOgrQN8EIGpL5+yTKKAsYVr4Os= Received: by 10.151.15.9 with SMTP id s9mr711634ybi.154.1216147081257; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807151138h1814742bi3dda0c596bb83d36@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:38:01 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE315A9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> <20080715170720.GJ18383@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE315A9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: d5e52d670d80c56e Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1302851583==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1302851583== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6979_3664351.1216147081244" ------=_Part_6979_3664351.1216147081244 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > However, users might sometimes supply one. It is this statement that gives me hiccoughs. If John Smith gives meaning to V1-V2 vs V2-V1, how is anyone to know what meaning he gives them? Suppose Joe has V1-V2 mean "as used before the Rapture" and V2-V1 mean "as used after the Rapture". Who's to know? We have to have something concrete, or it is not interoperable. However, what you and others seem to be implicitly assuming is the ordering "most significant subtag first". So just to get out of this issue, we could use that as a guiding principle. That is, we give the advice to users (in the "tag wisely section") for variant subtag ordering as follows: - put prefix variant subtags before their suffixes (that is, if V1 occurs in a Prefix of V2, V1 should go first) - otherwise, put "more significant" variant subtags before others - otherwise -- or in case there is any doubt as to relative significance -- put variant subtags in alphabetical order. Mark On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > There is no conventional semantic. However, users might sometimes supply > one. Generally this isn't a huge issue because true variants are rare in the > wild and of limited practicality. While that could change, in practice most > general variants are going to be nonsense together. At present, none of the > general purpose variants make sense with one-another. While that will change > over time, the utility of more than a couple together is going to always > remain limited. > > When implementing language tags, I have always made the assumption that the > subtag's order had some meaning to the user, even though my implementation > could not know what it was. All of the other subtags are canonically ordered > in a tag, after all---extlang, private use, and extension sequences have to > remain in the same order. Why would variants be any different? And somehow I > don't think it is a good thing that canonicalizing processors produce a > vastly different result from non-canonicalizing ones when that result is not > measurably better (it is measurably better to match a request for en-BU also > to the tag en-MM, etc.) > > I've had the opportunity to recommend various of the matching schemes to > different working groups. RFC 4647's compatibility with RFC 3066 has been a > tremendous boon here. However, if some implementations start reordering > subtags, they'll produce different results than those that are strictly of > the "Tag Content Wisely" flavor (i.e. "you give me subtags and I'll remove > them, one-by-one, until I find something"). The less I need the registry, > the happier I am overall because that hews closer to the original language > tag implementation requirements. So it makes me feel more comfortable saying > that matching implementations don't need to worry about subtag > (re-)ordering. > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Peter Constable > > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 10:20 AM > > To: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > > > > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > > > > > > > Alas, some combining marks that were thought to be in irrelevant > > > positions > > > turned out not to be so. > > > > This response to the point I made is ignoring the point I was > > making: that those particular aspects of Unicode are not analogous: > > encoding order in Unicode is a transparent metaphor for positional > > ordering, whereas there isn't a metaphor for ordering of our > > subtags. > > > > > > > The analogy isn't about the specifics: it's about assuming that > > > something > > > is meaningless that later on turns out to be meaningful. > > > > But the analogy breaks down for the reasons I've stated: encoding > > order has no obvious metaphor for our subtags, and so unless *we > > decide* to define some conventional semantic, there is no > > conventional semantic. > > > > > > > > Peter > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_6979_3664351.1216147081244 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > However, users might sometimes supply one.

It is this statement that gives me hiccoughs. If John Smith gives meaning to V1-V2 vs V2-V1, how is anyone to know what meaning he gives them? Suppose Joe has V1-V2 mean "as used before the Rapture" and V2-V1 mean "as used after the Rapture". Who's to know? We have to have something concrete, or it is not interoperable.

However, what you and others seem to be implicitly assuming is the ordering "most significant subtag first". So just to get out of this issue, we could use that as a guiding principle. That is, we give the advice to users (in the "tag wisely section") for variant subtag ordering as follows:

- put prefix variant subtags before their suffixes (that is, if V1 occurs in a Prefix of V2, V1 should go first)
- otherwise, put "more significant" variant subtags before others
- otherwise -- or in case there is any doubt as to relative significance -- put variant subtags in alphabetical order.

Mark

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
There is no conventional semantic. However, users might sometimes supply one. Generally this isn't a huge issue because true variants are rare in the wild and of limited practicality. While that could change, in practice most general variants are going to be nonsense together. At present, none of the general purpose variants make sense with one-another. While that will change over time, the utility of more than a couple together is going to always remain limited.

When implementing language tags, I have always made the assumption that the subtag's order had some meaning to the user, even though my implementation could not know what it was. All of the other subtags are canonically ordered in a tag, after all---extlang, private use, and extension sequences have to remain in the same order. Why would variants be any different? And somehow I don't think it is a good thing that canonicalizing processors produce a vastly different result from non-canonicalizing ones when that result is not measurably better (it is measurably better to match a request for en-BU also to the tag en-MM, etc.)

I've had the opportunity to recommend various of the matching schemes to different working groups. RFC 4647's compatibility with RFC 3066 has been a tremendous boon here. However, if some implementations start reordering subtags, they'll produce different results than those that are strictly of the "Tag Content Wisely" flavor (i.e. "you give me subtags and I'll remove them, one-by-one, until I find something"). The less I need the registry, the happier I am overall because that hews closer to the original language tag implementation requirements. So it makes me feel more comfortable saying that matching implementations don't need to worry about subtag (re-)ordering.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 10:20 AM
> To: ltru@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants
>
> > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]
>
>
> > Alas, some combining marks that were thought to be in irrelevant
> > positions
> > turned out not to be so.
>
> This response to the point I made is ignoring the point I was
> making: that those particular aspects of Unicode are not analogous:
> encoding order in Unicode is a transparent metaphor for positional
> ordering, whereas there isn't a metaphor for ordering of our
> subtags.
>
>
> > The analogy isn't about the specifics: it's about assuming that
> > something
> > is meaningless that later on turns out to be meaningful.
>
> But the analogy breaks down for the reasons I've stated: encoding
> order has no obvious metaphor for our subtags, and so unless *we
> decide* to define some conventional semantic, there is no
> conventional semantic.
>
>
>
> Peter
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_6979_3664351.1216147081244-- --===============1302851583== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1302851583==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 11:40:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E7963A6B55; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E6D3A6B55 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:40:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2DvUmz1FH0ma for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4BD63A6AFC for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KIpSZ-0003xS-Us; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:41:12 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:41:11 -0400 To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20080715184111.GD26672@mercury.ccil.org> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> <20080715170720.GJ18383@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE315A9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807151138h1814742bi3dda0c596bb83d36@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807151138h1814742bi3dda0c596bb83d36@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > However, what you and others seem to be implicitly assuming is the > ordering "most significant subtag first". So just to get out of this > issue, we could use that as a guiding principle. That is, we give > the advice to users (in the "tag wisely section") for variant subtag > ordering as follows: > > - put prefix variant subtags before their suffixes (that is, if V1 > occurs in a Prefix of V2, V1 should go first) > - otherwise, put "more significant" variant subtags before others > - otherwise -- or in case there is any doubt as to relative significance -- > put variant subtags in alphabetical order. I'm good with that, since it's advisory and decoupled from canonicalization. -- But that, he realized, was a foolish John Cowan thought; as no one knew better than he cowan@ccil.org that the Wall had no other side. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Arthur C. Clarke, "The Wall of Darkness" _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 13:21:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB3A3A6B27; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:21:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6795F3A6848 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:21:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.930, BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0+CfhBzSIbm3 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9F93A67D8 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33287 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KIr21-0004lU-7D for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:21:53 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost><30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com><20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org><30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com><20080715170720.GJ18383@mercury.ccil.org><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE315A9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807151138h1814742bi3dda0c596bb83d36@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:21:49 +0200 Message-ID: <4D9DF2581D5B4086AEE40192CBED645B@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807151138h1814742bi3dda0c596bb83d36@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 thread-index: Acjmqe7Hn6G3c3+vTTCtd2iIG3VtnwAC8sEA X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KIr21-0004lU-7D. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1KIr21-0004lU-7D 9907ba98601fb93e8423edd91d02da2a Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2126353305==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2126353305== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03CB_01C8E6C9.2E4F67F0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03CB_01C8E6C9.2E4F67F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark Davis wrote: - put prefix variant subtags before their suffixes (that is, if V1 = occurs in a Prefix of V2, V1 should go first)=20 Hmm, shouldn't variant subtags that have declared prefixes in the = registry that do not come *directly* after one of those prefixes in the = tag make the tag invalid? That should be the case also for extlangs, = otherwise things like zh-cmn-nan would be valid tags, and I don't think = they should be. =20 And for variant subtags that don't have a prefix declared in the = registry, multiple occurrences of the *same* variant subtag in a tag = should also render the tag invalid. =20 /kent k =20 ------=_NextPart_000_03CB_01C8E6C9.2E4F67F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Mark Davis wrote:
- put prefix variant subtags before = their=20 suffixes (that is, if V1 occurs in a Prefix of V2, V1 should go = first) 
Hmm, shouldn't variant subtags that have = declared prefixes=20 in the registry that do not come *directly* after one = of those=20 prefixes in the tag make the tag invalid? That should be the = case also=20 for extlangs, otherwise things like zh-cmn-nan would be valid = tags, and=20 I don't think they should be.
 
And for variant subtags that don't have a = prefix declared=20 in the registry, multiple occurrences of the *same* variant subtag in a = tag=20 should also render the tag invalid.
 
   =20 /kent k
 
------=_NextPart_000_03CB_01C8E6C9.2E4F67F0-- --===============2126353305== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2126353305==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 13:37:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F253A6A91; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:37:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B8E3A696E for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:37:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.189, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p9JPUpr-GU-D for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.241]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C543A67D8 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d18so24036and.122 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:37:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=G2XJ+dwiHWpMN91UEbo6tPH2+XeBZCZ6GF9KKw48Bwc=; b=mGdo2H2TnNsNgmvhXDy3mSD/dVM8ZUDCXO5PwxUNeucgpkGDRnJ4SNqgOdPIQCHCkU AqzK+8H7B30XR1Z+lFOEYxokufZ2nlNsQHPyxpkZEJ9CnrkKVy+5XOO7o8MeSLiRDR3L JoW1IgAorZx/b63sWB1d8dg82hpvQAUxY+LuI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=MDGCy1VAMHe8pklJu2zhu1XU6C2xo0H6aJy4Rwk7o3iTy86/vJUbtiE8HiN9g3m4lv QDpDfqkJL4edOkb6jrdu4d3WcgLVWqtH4YdSIZEckquAh6ZJiVckz0km/F/QwvQmgGbu S16L/IyNEBuqHcpPIjtHnT1vFqzWY81IuTs1o= Received: by 10.100.140.10 with SMTP id n10mr256223and.129.1216154224052; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.194.15 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807151337g6d321bffw905f0e064056631f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:37:03 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Kent Karlsson" In-Reply-To: <4D9DF2581D5B4086AEE40192CBED645B@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <20080715151952.GF18383@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807150843t3ab3c12cif098feb980d4efce@mail.gmail.com> <20080715170720.GJ18383@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE315A9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807151138h1814742bi3dda0c596bb83d36@mail.gmail.com> <4D9DF2581D5B4086AEE40192CBED645B@streamserve.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 44b981246ce38a1b Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1544820766==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1544820766== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17618_273620.1216154224061" ------=_Part_17618_273620.1216154224061 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Prefixes have never required being "directly after"; and having the prefix is a SHOULD not a must. (This was all discussed some time ago). Multiple occurrences are invalid: see 2.2.5 "The same variant subtag MUST NOT be used more than once within a language tag." Variant subtags have different requirements than extlang. Extlangs can occur either 0 or 1 times, no more. see 2.2.2 "Although the ABNF production 'extlang' permits up to three extended language tags in the language tag, extended language subtags MUST NOT include another extended language subtag in their Prefix. That is, the second and third extended language subtag positions in a language tag are permanently reserved and tags that include subtags in that position are invalid. Mark On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Kent Karlsson wrote: > Mark Davis wrote: > > - put prefix variant subtags before their suffixes (that is, if V1 occurs > in a Prefix of V2, V1 should go first) > > Hmm, shouldn't variant subtags that have declared prefixes in the registry > that do not come **directly** after one of those prefixes in the tag make > the tag invalid? That should be the case also for extlangs, otherwise things > like *zh-cmn-nan* would be valid tags, and I don't think they should be. > > And for variant subtags that don't have a prefix declared in the registry, > multiple occurrences of the *same* variant subtag in a tag should also > render the tag invalid. > > /kent k > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > ------=_Part_17618_273620.1216154224061 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Prefixes have never required being "directly after"; and having the prefix is a SHOULD not a must. (This was all discussed some time ago).

Multiple occurrences are invalid: see 2.2.5 "The same variant subtag MUST NOT be used more than once within a language tag."

Variant subtags have different requirements than extlang. Extlangs can occur either 0 or 1 times, no more. see 2.2.2 "Although the ABNF production 'extlang' permits up to three extended language tags in the language tag, extended language subtags MUST NOT include another extended language subtag in their Prefix. That is, the second and third extended language subtag positions in a language tag are permanently reserved and tags that include subtags in that position are invalid.

Mark

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> wrote:
Mark Davis wrote:
- put prefix variant subtags before their suffixes (that is, if V1 occurs in a Prefix of V2, V1 should go first) 
Hmm, shouldn't variant subtags that have declared prefixes in the registry that do not come *directly* after one of those prefixes in the tag make the tag invalid? That should be the case also for extlangs, otherwise things like zh-cmn-nan would be valid tags, and I don't think they should be.
 
And for variant subtags that don't have a prefix declared in the registry, multiple occurrences of the *same* variant subtag in a tag should also render the tag invalid.
 
    /kent k
 

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


------=_Part_17618_273620.1216154224061-- --===============1544820766== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1544820766==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 14:49:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429103A6AC2; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:49:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABE73A6A81 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:49:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1BI4w9XcvlPE for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A1A3A6A37 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:50:15 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:50:15 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:50:14 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjmiTsUsw8EoE/7Q9eo+hxBRnQabgAArIQAAA3mPxA= Message-ID: References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Phillips, Addison > And then in canonicalization say: > -- > 6. If more than one variant appears, order the variants according to > their Prefix fields in the registry. In this order, if a variant > appears in one of a variant's Prefix fields, it MUST appear in the tag > preceding that variant. If none of the other variants appear in the tag, > order it after any variants that have a prefix that matches the tag, > otherwise preserving the original order selected by the user. > Comments? Only that the 2nd and 3rd sentences need to be reworded -- though it's not exactly easy to come up with straightforward wording for this. He's alternate wording -- not sure that it's much better, though: 6. If more than one variant appears, order the variants according to their Prefix fields in the registry. In this order, all variant subtags within a tag that have a Prefix-field relationship with another variant subtag also within that tag MUST occur before variant subtags that do not have such a relationship, and they must be ordered such that if variant1 is listed as a Prefix for variant2 then variant1 MSUT occur in a tag before variant2. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 19:20:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801263A691B; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:20:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B39D3A691B for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:20:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MhMiYYfMCHin for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154143A680C for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.23]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6G2Kxt3000051 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:20:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 18ca_d457c90a_52dd_11dd_9ba6_001d0969ab06; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:20:59 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:32812) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:14:57 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080716100031.096ca508@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:28:44 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.co m> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 23:43 08/07/15, Mark Davis wrote: >That is why I've been saying we need a canonical order. You still haven't addressed the questions I had for you: > >So what it comes down to is: > >If you think that there is a semantic difference between de-fonipa-1996 and de-1996-fonipa, what is that difference supposed to be? >And if there is no difference, what is the preferred order, so that we promote interoperability? >Or do you just think that variants are so unimportant that it doesn't matter? [after reading many more posts in this thread] Yes, I think that variants are relatively unimportant, in particular combinations of non-prefixed variants. As Addison has said, we currently don't have a single example that would actually make sense. I'd prefer we could move on with our main work of finishing the spec rather than to work out details of nonexisting cases. Making decisions based on 0 examples is a bad idea. In some cases, it may be necessary, but especially the IETF tries to avoid this. The fact that right-to-left fallback is the most important process for language tags suggests to me that the best way to order any potential tags is so that fallback works best. So, assume two extensions, 'fofoo' and 'babar'. Then assume a specific language 'xyz'. Actual users might agree that there is no noticable "semantic" difference between xyz-fofoo-babar and xyz-babar-fofoo, in the sense that users who see these tags easily explain them the same way, imagine the same content, and so on. However, the above two tags behave differently with respect to fallback. So there may be a clear and obvious reason to everybody in the community to prefer one order over the other. And because these are general tags, that order may be different for different languages, i.e. xyz-fofoo-babar is preferred over xyz-babar-fofoo, while zyx-babar-fofoo is preferred over zyx-fofoo-babar, for reasons absolutely obvious for those knowing those specific language variants. If we specify "alphabetic order" or some such, the chance we get this right is 50% for two subtags. If we leave it to users, we give them a 100% chance (of course some of them will mess up). So I strongly suggest: - We say something about the order of variants with prefixes. - For variants without prefixes, we don't say anything, or - We say that order matters (to RFC 4647, that is) - We say 'tag wisely' - We make clear that there should be no reordering, that order is to be preserved (i.e. applications should use an array, not a set) In any case, I'm against specifying alphabetic ordering just because we don't know anything better. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 02:20:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D831128C299; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:20:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B4328C2A4 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:20:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.783 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.783 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.310, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SUBJECT_FUZZY_TION=0.156] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W64dOuQd0MIF for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF4C28C299 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 12BA81C00E1 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:21:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023541C00DF for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:21:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E3DA1D9BE for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:21:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:21:16 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20080716092116.GC27580@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="RIYY1s2vRbPFwWeW" Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.24-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Subject: [Ltru] [michelle.cotton@icann.org: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --RIYY1s2vRbPFwWeW Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:04:08 -0700 Old-From: Michelle Cotton To: IETF Discussion Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:04:07 -0700 Old-Subject: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML Thread-Topic: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML Thread-Index: Acjl/YkeG3N7LFzaQUS1F8amw1WCFQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ietf-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ietf-bounces@ietf.org X-PMX-Version: 5.4.2.338381, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.7.9.130100 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='BODY_SIZE_5000_5999 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_LIST_HEADER 0, __HAS_LIST_HELP 0, __HAS_LIST_SUBSCRIBE 0, __HAS_LIST_UNSUBSCRIBE 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' X-UIDL: 723323c3b75b0942bd43c9911b0d8b41 X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.1.7 Subject: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML From: Michelle Cotton Received-SPF: on batilda: SPF-pass localhost is always allowed. spfquery: localhost is always allowed. Received-SPF: pass (spfquery: localhost is always allowed.) client-ip=127.0.0.1; envelope-from=; helo=mx1.nic.fr; IETF Community: As first announced in April 2008, IANA is improving the formatting of its protocol registries by migrating the source format of these registries to structured XML format. We are pleased to announce the first set of migrated registries have now come online. Prior to this migration, typically protocol registries were formatted in a plain text version. Now, with XML formatted source documents, IANA will publish a number of different formats for converted registries. In particular, converted registries will initially be available in XML, XHTML and plain text versions. It is intended that XHTML become the preferred format for viewing registries, with plain text being made available for accessibility reasons. The remainder of the registries which are not yet converted require further consultation on formatting issues. It is intended that over the coming months these issues will be resolved and the conversion will be completed. Some registries that have specific formatting requirements, such as Management Information Base (MIB) files, will not be converted. In order to make the transition as smooth as possible, IANA will continue to maintain the legacy plain text formats until 30 November 2008. After this date, plain text versions will only be provided that are derived from the XML formats. However, implementors who intend to parse the contents of an IANA protocol registry should migrate to using the XML versions, rather than the plain text version. All existing URLs to protocol registries shall continue to work, and the new formats will be available from our website at http://www.iana.org/protocols/ as they are rolled out. An example of a converted registry is: http://www.iana.org/assignments/aaa-parameters (legacy text version) http://www.iana.org/assignments/aaa-parameters/aaa-parameters.txt (new text version) http://www.iana.org/assignments/aaa-parameters/aaa-parameters.xhtml (new HTML version) http://www.iana.org/assignments/aaa-parameters/aaa-parameters.xml (new XML version) The next steps (in addition to completing the remaining registries) includes introducing new services such as the ability to subscribe to be notified of registry changes. IANA will continue to provide updates to the IETF list as more steps are completed. If you have any questions regarding this project or regarding the format of the registries, please contact IANA (iana@iana.org) or myself (contact information found below). Thank you, Michelle Cotton IANA IETF Liaison Email: michelle.cotton@icann.org *** Initial Announcement: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 Subject: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML IANA is currently engaged in a project to convert the IETF related registries to XML to provide the community with multiple ways of viewing registry information. When conversion to XML is done, XML will become the source format for the registries and the current formats of html and plain text will be generated from the XML source. Stylesheets and schemas will also be made available together with XML. Users will be able to access the registries in new and useful ways, while still having the ability to see the registries in the original style. Part of the conversion requires IANA to "clean-up" the registries in order to fit with the XML schemas. IANA is not changing the data in the registries. IANA is cleaning up the formatting including regularizing spacing and providing consistent display of titles, references and registration procedures. For those registries that need extensive format changes, IANA will be working with the appropriate working groups and area directors to make sure that the format changes do not affect the content of the registry. Those registries that are required to be in specific formats, for example the MIBs and language subtags registries, will still be produced in the existing formats. IANA has consulted with the IETF XML directorate to make sure that the XML schemas are properly formulated. Certain decisions on schemas reflect the needs of IANA in maintaining the registries moving forward. In the coming months, cleaned-up versions of the registries will begin appearing on the IANA website. If you notice any content issues with the updated versions, or if they are not accessible, please notify IANA staff immediately and we will work with the appropriate parties to correct any inconsistencies. We look forward to providing the XML versions of the registries to better serve the community's needs. IANA will announce in advance when the registry conversion will be completed. After the conversion is complete, we intend to introduce new services such as the ability to subscribe to be notified when specific registries are updated Thank you, Michelle Cotton IANA IETF Liaison Email: michelle.cotton@icann.org _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf --RIYY1s2vRbPFwWeW Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --RIYY1s2vRbPFwWeW-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 12:53:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6963A6806; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:53:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93EAC3A685A for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:53:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4DEFqZ7PKAJu for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767F23A63EC for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:53:06 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,199,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="11458758" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Jul 2008 19:53:35 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6GJrX0U010039 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:53:33 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:53:32 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:53:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjmiTsUsw8EoE/7Q9eo+hxBRnQabgAArIQAAA3mPxAALnJ5wA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I tried to fit your rewording into the draft, but it really wasn't quite right either. I ended up making a list of rules, as follows: If more than one variant appears: Order those variants related to the "base tag" via a 'Prefix' ahead of those variants that lack the relationship. For example, the tag "en-scottish-fonipa" (English, Scottish dialect, IPA phonetic transcription) is in canonical order because 'scottish' has a 'Prefix' of "en", while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix' field. Order any variant that includes another variant or list of variants in one of its 'Prefix' fields directly following that variant (or list of variants). For example, the tag "sl-1994-biske-rozaj" would be canonicalized as "sl-rozaj-biske-1994". This is because 'rozaj' lists "sl" as its sole 'Prefix'; 'biske' lists "sl-rozaj" as its sole Prefix. The subtag '1994' has several prefixes, including "sl-rozaj". However, it follows both subtags because one of its 'Prefix' fields is "sl-rozaj-biske". Keep any remaining variant subtags in their original order. For example, both the tags "tlh-boont-fonipa" (Klingon, Boontling, IPA phonetic transcription) and "tlh-fonipa-boont" are considered "canonical". The 'boont' subtag has a 'Prefix' of "en" (it really shouldn't appear in this tag), while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix'. The reason for the selection and ordering of these subtags cannot be determined from the registry, so the original order is maintained. Comments? Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:50 PM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of > > Phillips, Addison > > > > And then in canonicalization say: > > -- > > 6. If more than one variant appears, order the variants according > to > > their Prefix fields in the registry. In this order, if a variant > > appears in one of a variant's Prefix fields, it MUST appear in > the tag > > preceding that variant. If none of the other variants appear in > the tag, > > order it after any variants that have a prefix that matches the > tag, > > otherwise preserving the original order selected by the user. > > > Comments? > > Only that the 2nd and 3rd sentences need to be reworded -- though > it's not exactly easy to come up with straightforward wording for > this. He's alternate wording -- not sure that it's much better, > though: > > 6. If more than one variant appears, order the variants according > to their Prefix fields in the registry. In this order, all variant > subtags within a tag that have a Prefix-field relationship with > another variant subtag also within that tag MUST occur before > variant subtags that do not have such a relationship, and they must > be ordered such that if variant1 is listed as a Prefix for variant2 > then variant1 MSUT occur in a tag before variant2. > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 13:00:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7AD3A68AD; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848D93A68AD for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:00:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.888, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0e8eEjk8+Z-P for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602D53A63EC for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:00:41 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,199,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="77403943" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Jul 2008 20:01:10 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6GK14oY027419 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:01:06 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:01:05 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "Phillips, Addison" , Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:01:03 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjmiTsUsw8EoE/7Q9eo+hxBRnQabgAArIQAAA3mPxAALnJ5wAAAR0JQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6FBC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The proposed paragraph for 'Choice' is also a bit different that originally proposed. There were no substantive changes made (only editorial ones). For the record: Use variant subtags sparingly and in the correct order. Most variant subtags have a 'Prefix' field or fields that express the list of subtags that they are appropriate with. Variants SHOULD only be used with subtags that appear in one of these 'Prefix' fields. If a variant lists another variant in one of its 'Prefix' fields, it SHOULD appear directly after that variant in any language tag where both occur. General purpose variants (those with no 'Prefix' fields at all) SHOULD appear after any other variant subtags. Because variants are very specialized, using many of them together generally makes the tag so narrow as to override the additional precision gained. For example: the Slovenian variant 'rozaj' (Resian dialect) has a Prefix of "sl". Other Slovenian variants include 'biske' and '1994'. The subtag 'biske' lists "sl-rozaj" as a 'Prefix'. The subtag '1994' lists both "sl-rozaj" and "sl-rozaj-biske" as a 'Prefix'. Thus, the proper form of a tag that uses all three is "sl-rozaj-biske-1994". Putting the subtags into another order would interfere with interoperability, as well as the overall interpretation of the tag. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Phillips, Addison > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:54 PM > To: Peter Constable; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > I tried to fit your rewording into the draft, but it really wasn't > quite right either. I ended up making a list of rules, as follows: > > If more than one variant appears: > > > > Order those variants related to the "base tag" via a 'Prefix' > ahead of those variants that lack the relationship. For example, > the tag "en-scottish-fonipa" (English, Scottish dialect, IPA > phonetic transcription) is in canonical order because 'scottish' > has a 'Prefix' of "en", while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix' field. > > Order any variant that includes another variant or list of > variants in one of its 'Prefix' fields directly following that > variant (or list of variants). For example, the tag "sl-1994-biske- > rozaj" would be canonicalized as "sl-rozaj-biske-1994". This is > because 'rozaj' lists "sl" as its sole 'Prefix'; 'biske' lists "sl- > rozaj" as its sole Prefix. The subtag '1994' has several prefixes, > including "sl-rozaj". However, it follows both subtags because one > of its 'Prefix' fields is "sl-rozaj-biske". > > Keep any remaining variant subtags in their original order. > For example, both the tags "tlh-boont-fonipa" (Klingon, Boontling, > IPA phonetic transcription) and "tlh-fonipa-boont" are considered > "canonical". The 'boont' subtag has a 'Prefix' of "en" (it really > shouldn't appear in this tag), while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix'. The > reason for the selection and ordering of these subtags cannot be > determined from the registry, so the original order is > maintained. > > > > > Comments? > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Peter Constable > > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:50 PM > > To: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of > > > Phillips, Addison > > > > > > > And then in canonicalization say: > > > -- > > > 6. If more than one variant appears, order the variants > according > > to > > > their Prefix fields in the registry. In this order, if a > variant > > > appears in one of a variant's Prefix fields, it MUST appear in > > the tag > > > preceding that variant. If none of the other variants appear in > > the tag, > > > order it after any variants that have a prefix that matches the > > tag, > > > otherwise preserving the original order selected by the user. > > > > > Comments? > > > > Only that the 2nd and 3rd sentences need to be reworded -- though > > it's not exactly easy to come up with straightforward wording for > > this. He's alternate wording -- not sure that it's much better, > > though: > > > > 6. If more than one variant appears, order the variants according > > to their Prefix fields in the registry. In this order, all > variant > > subtags within a tag that have a Prefix-field relationship with > > another variant subtag also within that tag MUST occur before > > variant subtags that do not have such a relationship, and they > must > > be ordered such that if variant1 is listed as a Prefix for > variant2 > > then variant1 MSUT occur in a tag before variant2. > > > > > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 22:13:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF6D28C0FF; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:13:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFED28C0FF for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:13:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.708 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.708 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LYEG64-NUyXT for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2262C3A6B1A for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:14:07 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:14:07 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:14:03 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjmiTsUsw8EoE/7Q9eo+hxBRnQabgAArIQAAA3mPxAALnJ5wAATdA6g Message-ID: References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > Order any variant that includes another variant or list of > variants in one of its 'Prefix' fields directly following that variant > (or list of variants). For this, maybe wording along the lines of the following would be useful: "For a given variant subtag within a given tag, examine the 'Prefix' fields for that subtag and determine the longest 'Prefix' that is also part of that tag. If there is such a prefix for that variant subtag, then the variant subtag must directly following that prefix." Just an idea... Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 14:17:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C793A67F8; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:17:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C806A3A67F8 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:17:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NmsE3EAAXF5W for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55673A67E6 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:17:06 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,205,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="11933368" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 17 Jul 2008 21:17:37 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6HLHXJp013833; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:17:33 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:17:33 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:17:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjmiTsUsw8EoE/7Q9eo+hxBRnQabgAArIQAAA3mPxAALnJ5wAATdA6gACCyM3A= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <30b660a20807091518v49a99a8cmfb20a117098a68f2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BC4ACD4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807111047y40ed7baan93dfd4552ce76ddd@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080712172515.0962c1d8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hmm... yes, this is a complicated thing to explain. I started with your text and arrived at: -- If more than one variant appears within a tag: Order any variant related to the other subtags via a 'Prefix' ahead of those variants that lack any relationship to other subtags but following any subtags that appear in any of its 'Prefix' fields. For example, the tag "en-scottish-fonipa" (English, Scottish dialect, IPA phonetic transcription) is in canonical order because 'scottish' has a 'Prefix' of "en", while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix' field. Another example would be the tag "sl-IT-rozaj-biske-1994". This tag is in canonical form: 'rozaj' lists "sl" as its sole 'Prefix'; 'biske' lists "sl-rozaj" as its sole Prefix. The subtag '1994' has several prefixes, including "sl-rozaj". However, it follows both 'rozaj' and 'biske' because one of its 'Prefix' fields is "sl-rozaj-biske". Keep any remaining variant subtags in their original order. For example, both the tags "tlh-boont-fonipa" (Klingon, Boontling, IPA phonetic transcription) and "tlh-fonipa-boont" are considered "canonical". The 'boont' subtag has a 'Prefix' of "en" (it really shouldn't appear in this tag), while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix'. The reason for the selection and ordering of these subtags cannot be determined from the registry, so the original order is maintained. -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:14 PM > To: Phillips, Addison; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > > > > Order any variant that includes another variant or list of > > variants in one of its 'Prefix' fields directly following that > variant > > (or list of variants). > > For this, maybe wording along the lines of the following would be > useful: > > "For a given variant subtag within a given tag, examine the > 'Prefix' fields for that subtag and determine the longest 'Prefix' > that is also part of that tag. If there is such a prefix for that > variant subtag, then the variant subtag must directly following > that prefix." > > > Just an idea... > Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 15:12:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9C73A67DA; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:12:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C5A23A67B0 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:12:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.015 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.015 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.961, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UyBEdbValOSp for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F003A63C9 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so88613qwe.31 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:13:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=TeFItF7lRQ+8boAKVjG4Gw314HU2Ygl7PrNo/NqRjxs=; b=vv8ryvx0uofhOHDOy2OJBkF4VQeXE3JyAWRqbj3UPPP23r6gKjB9Qd04lMzXLShS7T KLnCIX4ynW8fJwkiZ08Z1ICKDy7JizgVMd2yWqCJWefDZBmkTevNzO+/Pe2M9SI0myC6 xMZ5qED6PbN2ZnyqoZcRjfICcd2NKvxl8O7Ec= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=m5rGrDH0ylZYqTKmkdHIG9MnteHYfvFPJM6H+lYrttvUYIiFwfqoh/pllEJX4ZRIv8 euwMQbSP7BcabhuJKV8oAtK1q2cgYWsCCa3pZIr8+Dfim4Qb9VV+vmceVwVitRPFhl8/ hDD18q/oinI1UPElLgTUe1IuN9RXn3OKjNeYQ= Received: by 10.150.49.1 with SMTP id w1mr1179893ybw.4.1216332785907; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:13:05 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a5daa3f31dd4edb5 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1869931953==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1869931953== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5729_991625.1216332785925" ------=_Part_5729_991625.1216332785925 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In my view, your text is now going in simply the wrong direction. I had proposed the following, which John seconded and you and Peter ignored. However, what you and others seem to be implicitly assuming is the ordering "most significant subtag first". So just to get out of this issue, we could use that as a guiding principle. That is, we give the advice to users (in the "tag wisely section") for variant subtag ordering as follows: - put prefix variant subtags before their suffixes (that is, if V1 occurs in a Prefix of V2, V1 should go first) - otherwise, put "more significant" variant subtags before others - otherwise -- or in case there is any doubt as to relative significance -- put variant subtags in alphabetical order. At this point, I think we are better reverting to the text of 9 days ago on this topic, and just leaving this issue open for the future. We can then get back to the main issue, of seeing whether we are sufficiently done to do a real last call. Mark On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:17 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > Hmm... yes, this is a complicated thing to explain. I started with your > text and arrived at: > > -- > If more than one variant appears within a tag: > > > > Order any variant related to the other subtags via a 'Prefix' ahead of > those variants that lack any relationship to other subtags but following any > subtags that appear in any of its 'Prefix' fields. For example, the tag > "en-scottish-fonipa" (English, Scottish dialect, IPA phonetic transcription) > is in canonical order because 'scottish' has a 'Prefix' of "en", while > 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix' field. Another example would be the tag > "sl-IT-rozaj-biske-1994". This tag is in canonical form: 'rozaj' lists "sl" > as its sole 'Prefix'; 'biske' lists "sl-rozaj" as its sole Prefix. The > subtag '1994' has several prefixes, including "sl-rozaj". However, it > follows both 'rozaj' and 'biske' because one of its 'Prefix' fields is > "sl-rozaj-biske". > > Keep any remaining variant subtags in their original order. For > example, both the tags "tlh-boont-fonipa" (Klingon, Boontling, IPA phonetic > transcription) and "tlh-fonipa-boont" are considered "canonical". The > 'boont' subtag has a 'Prefix' of "en" (it really shouldn't appear in this > tag), while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix'. The reason for the selection and > ordering of these subtags cannot be determined from the registry, so the > original order is maintained. > > > > -- > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:14 PM > > To: Phillips, Addison; ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > > > > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] > > > > > > > Order any variant that includes another variant or list of > > > variants in one of its 'Prefix' fields directly following that > > variant > > > (or list of variants). > > > > For this, maybe wording along the lines of the following would be > > useful: > > > > "For a given variant subtag within a given tag, examine the > > 'Prefix' fields for that subtag and determine the longest 'Prefix' > > that is also part of that tag. If there is such a prefix for that > > variant subtag, then the variant subtag must directly following > > that prefix." > > > > > > Just an idea... > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_5729_991625.1216332785925 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
In my view, your text is now going in simply the wrong direction. I had proposed the following, which John seconded and you and Peter ignored.

However, what you and others seem to be implicitly assuming is the ordering "most significant subtag first". So just to get out of this issue, we could use that as a guiding principle. That is, we give the advice to users (in the "tag wisely section") for variant subtag ordering as follows:

- put prefix variant subtags before their suffixes (that is, if V1 occurs in a Prefix of V2, V1 should go first)
- otherwise, put "more significant" variant subtags before others
- otherwise -- or in case there is any doubt as to relative significance -- put variant subtags in alphabetical order.

At this point, I think we are better reverting to the text of 9 days ago on this topic, and just leaving this issue open for the future. We can then get back to the main issue, of seeing whether we are sufficiently done to do a real last call.

Mark

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:17 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
Hmm... yes, this is a complicated thing to explain. I started with your text and arrived at:

--
<t>If more than one variant appears within a tag:

<list style="letters">

 <t>Order any variant related to the other subtags via a 'Prefix' ahead of those variants that lack any relationship to other subtags but following any subtags that appear in any of its 'Prefix' fields. For example, the tag "en-scottish-fonipa" (English, Scottish dialect, IPA phonetic transcription) is in canonical order because 'scottish' has a 'Prefix' of "en", while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix' field. Another example would be the tag "sl-IT-rozaj-biske-1994". This tag is in canonical form: 'rozaj' lists "sl" as its sole 'Prefix'; 'biske' lists "sl-rozaj" as its sole Prefix. The subtag '1994' has several prefixes, including "sl-rozaj". However, it follows both 'rozaj' and 'biske' because one of its 'Prefix' fields is "sl-rozaj-biske".</t>

 <t>Keep any remaining variant subtags in their original order. For example, both the tags "tlh-boont-fonipa" (Klingon, Boontling, IPA phonetic transcription) and "tlh-fonipa-boont" are considered "canonical". The 'boont' subtag has a 'Prefix' of "en" (it really shouldn't appear in this tag), while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix'. The reason for the selection and ordering of these subtags cannot be determined from the registry, so the original order is maintained.</t>

</list>
</t>
--

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:14 PM
> To: Phillips, Addison; ltru@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Canonical variants
>
> > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
>
>
> >   <t>Order any variant that includes another variant or list of
> > variants in one of its 'Prefix' fields directly following that
> variant
> > (or list of variants).
>
> For this, maybe wording along the lines of the following would be
> useful:
>
> "For a given variant subtag within a given tag, examine the
> 'Prefix' fields for that subtag and determine the longest 'Prefix'
> that is also part of that tag. If there is such a prefix for that
> variant subtag, then the variant subtag must directly following
> that prefix."
>
>
> Just an idea...
> Peter
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_5729_991625.1216332785925-- --===============1869931953== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1869931953==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 16:20:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A26228C103; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:20:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4219C3A6831 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:20:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.746 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.746 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7WWnHZdtmUtH for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D408B28C104 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:20:12 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,206,1215388800"; d="scan'208,217";a="77901425" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 17 Jul 2008 23:20:43 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6HNKgav008664 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:20:43 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:20:42 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:20:41 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjoWkp2BiYBPUP6SQKHhMX93v25WwAAPxxg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147570669@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BD2AA42@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US 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<4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147570669@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147570669@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 838ad9255e507704 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1781978015==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1781978015==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 16:46:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F453A69C9; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:46:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32343A69C9 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:46:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.024, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, 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From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:47:11 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: AcjoZmkoK+XERHyrQRCD+gZXsnGtFwAAEaDg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01475706BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <6.0.0.20.2.20080715183726.097251a8@localhost> <30b660a20807150743s2b055ee6n1e7de2064231336c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147570669@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171639v4fb08dcetb40ab80c8bc977a5@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807171639v4fb08dcetb40ab80c8bc977a5@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0247018860==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0247018860== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01475706BFEXSEA5Dantama_" --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01475706BFEXSEA5Dantama_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SG1t4oCmIG9rYXksIHNvIGluIG15IGxhc3QgcHJvcG9zYWwsIHdoaWNoIHlvdSBhZ3JlZWQgdG8g ZXhjZXB0IGZvciBvdXIgZGlmZmVyaW5nIGJldHdlZW4gbXkg4oCca2VlcCBpbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBv cmRlcuKAnSBhbmQgeW91ciDigJxhbHBoYWJldGl6ZeKAnSwgd2UgbW9kaWZpZWQgYnkgdGhlIGNo 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0247018860==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 16:51:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D143A69DB; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADB93A69DB for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:51:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.061 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.061 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xZAHe9vhSrFx for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0843A68BF for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so43707yxg.49 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:51:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=T1R0ME68T1l3W3q6k+HYxjvBXgY34YPlYuru3FGqBUE=; b=ouEYwFTRBWRvwvRZd+PdFZbhX8ZTH8K2Z2i01Lf2u9alOtIux3AKCFcNhYrPCpeBPz ehtQMbc+RZmo2F4oGU2yaoPSs62fvinwSDaH1tXC2r9BfMGUtzeA509qhC/AbPq7DR19 a+D07jBTwXSYJrJyTjRSOVY5ua4fxz+iVs3Jk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=H7/GwdLKKJluNgMjLvaM8nU42S9ggykh5hNynj4OMQbeeltM6fZ0a9tXZKravgANPZ MbIqvujuEGbZ7/UBc65CYS18LYrleE8SvYY00f5b3iK1qCEYggrSPqNoTDY7bRuZ+fJW vmXIjhstmUwFOHiglBYi3GQyT5VDDFImtskxU= Received: by 10.151.156.17 with SMTP id i17mr1261739ybo.215.1216338718632; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807171651r2defcf0cxff267809b7bc3de1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:51:58 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01475706BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147570669@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171639v4fb08dcetb40ab80c8bc977a5@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01475706BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b3e2902ebd389234 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0933584784==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0933584784== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6303_32186934.1216338718644" ------=_Part_6303_32186934.1216338718644 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline 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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0933584784==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 22:45:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A5F3A69FE; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:45:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E84A23A693F for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:45:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.56 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hmtuSh5Q9RMB for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC983A69FE for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6I5jUSM011715 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:45:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 247a_baf44488_548c_11dd_992c_0014221fa3c9; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:45:29 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:47185) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:39:26 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080718104016.074fead8@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:42:56 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" , "Phillips, Addison" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807171651r2defcf0cxff267809b7bc3de1@mail.gmail.co m> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BE312C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147570669@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171639v4fb08dcetb40ab80c8bc977a5@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01475706BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171651r2defcf0cxff267809b7bc3de1@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 08:51 08/07/18, Mark Davis wrote: >There are two parts that I think you don't have yet in the choice; order by prefix relations (you have) then most significant tag first, then alphabetic. [as a technical contributor] If 'alphabetic' comes after most significant subtag first, I'm able to tolerate it in a section on how to create tags. When it comes to any potential change of tags, I think the best advice we can give is 'leave as is', and I very much do not want to see 'alphabetical' in there, because the "most important" may be a judgement by the creator, which should be respected. Regards, Martin. >Then I'm happy. (Well, reasonably. There is that whole war in Iraq, and melting economy, and moron president thing...) [chair hat on: let's concentrate on the work of this WG :-] #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 18 08:33:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD7B3A6A63; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:33:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C4D3A6943 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:33:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.757 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.757 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.381, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oGCeE3UhKdS2 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95DA3A6A63 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so167085qwe.31 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:33:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=cjwRHQ2G/o1Z/p23iS35mgH2grE09Ovu63SEaj6VEwE=; b=APCq0eeeWRAtIMiPtoP4YWOF3Hg30jD/VefhkySx2tqy4v08PbVVnxxBmxqVIXMqi9 vA6QkWzPA4FUEJ768L8MuTN1zfM/MhL2mTXj3EJhbFE32BFNwgOsNXln1X+E1cQhHPPO RkkH8vCZoQ/YpE2iK3kSg7WWLcqdIA21xkC64= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=JQqibrR81JoYUo4mrS0eL1Pgua/eWRgpp+VKRrmsFEKdMBtSIbiqE106x1z6I2t7vi ynx13d14RLz4TXJOTj0yQR8BFqF0CbjmgVKbZLln6CdBjNMq84Fiv4wntb9lSw7HXhBo AzGUZEJX5rLxJt6cZoQmjqrncENaeBTJPRSNg= Received: by 10.150.124.2 with SMTP id w2mr343280ybc.170.1216395232036; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807180833k3c3c6979j807689e0d575dc13@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:33:51 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Martin Duerst" In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080718104016.074fead8@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147570669@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171639v4fb08dcetb40ab80c8bc977a5@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01475706BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171651r2defcf0cxff267809b7bc3de1@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080718104016.074fead8@localhost> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 36eb7ba56289ce78 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0708820090==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0708820090== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_12063_8313705.1216395232038" ------=_Part_12063_8313705.1216395232038 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mark On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 6:42 PM, Martin Duerst wrote: > At 08:51 08/07/18, Mark Davis wrote: > >There are two parts that I think you don't have yet in the choice; order > by prefix relations (you have) then most significant tag first, then > alphabetic. > > [as a technical contributor] > > If 'alphabetic' comes after most significant subtag first, I'm able > to tolerate it in a section on how to create tags. good > When it comes to > any potential change of tags, I think the best advice we can give > is 'leave as is', and I very much do not want to see 'alphabetical' > in there, because the "most important" may be a judgement by the > creator, which should be respected. I'm ok with leaving that out -- it sounds like we may have sufficient consensus to move forward on this, putting in the tag wisely. (On the side, since I really don't want to stir this up again: my view is if I pass in a tag xx-variant1-variant2 and some collection of data has xx-variant2-variant1, as far as I'm concerned that should return as a perfect match: as likely as not, any difference in the ordering is purely arbitrary on the part of either the user making the first tag or the user making the second tag. And if they are a perfect match, that implies that the canonical forms should be the same. But there is clearly no consensus on that so the important thing is to close this and move on.) > > Regards, Martin. > > > >Then I'm happy. (Well, reasonably. There is that whole war in Iraq, and > melting economy, and moron president thing...) > > [chair hat on: let's concentrate on the work of this WG :-] > > > > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > ------=_Part_12063_8313705.1216395232038 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

Mark

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 6:42 PM, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
At 08:51 08/07/18, Mark Davis wrote:
>There are two parts that I think you don't have yet in the choice; order by prefix relations (you have) then most significant tag first, then alphabetic.

[as a technical contributor]

If 'alphabetic' comes after most significant subtag first, I'm able
to tolerate it in a section on how to create tags.

good
 
When it comes to
any potential change of tags, I think the best advice we can give
is 'leave as is', and I very much do not want to see 'alphabetical'
in there, because the "most important" may be a judgement by the
creator, which should be respected.

I'm ok with leaving that out -- it sounds like we may have sufficient consensus to move forward on this, putting in the tag wisely.

(On the side, since I really don't want to stir this up again: my view is if I pass in a tag xx-variant1-variant2 and some collection of data has xx-variant2-variant1, as far as I'm concerned that should return as a perfect match: as likely as not, any difference in the ordering is purely arbitrary on the part of either the user making the first tag or the user making the second tag. And if they are a perfect match, that implies that the canonical forms should be the same. But there is clearly no consensus on that so the important thing is to close this and move on.)



Regards,   Martin.


>Then I'm happy. (Well, reasonably. There is that whole war in Iraq, and melting economy, and moron president thing...)

[chair hat on: let's concentrate on the work of this WG :-] 







#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp


------=_Part_12063_8313705.1216395232038-- --===============0708820090== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0708820090==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 18 11:22:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A2F3A67EC; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:22:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273603A67EC for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:22:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.441 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.441 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.557, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s0hejUsZdp1u for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553A23A6782 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:22:14 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,211,1215388800"; d="scan'208,217";a="78201019" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 18 Jul 2008 18:22:48 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6IIMk83002607; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:22:48 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:22:46 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:22:20 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Martin Duerst Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:22:44 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Canonical variants Thread-Index: Acjo67KcN31hNe5STmyrL8d4tH81xgAFxT3w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147D54151@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147570669@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171639v4fb08dcetb40ab80c8bc977a5@mail.gmail.com> 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ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA4F3A6B5D; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:28:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A303A6B4D for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:28:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.636, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lVFwlchog2Hz for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) 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Received: by 10.150.205.13 with SMTP id c13mr473835ybg.239.1216405752519; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.13 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807181129o59f31796v7157a3948d9dfc7d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:29:12 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147D54151@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147570669@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171639v4fb08dcetb40ab80c8bc977a5@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01475706BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171651r2defcf0cxff267809b7bc3de1@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080718104016.074fead8@localhost> <30b660a20807180833k3c3c6979j807689e0d575dc13@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147D54151@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1e9424f70eb81e92 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1223336018==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1223336018== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14592_16740324.1216405752518" ------=_Part_14592_16740324.1216405752518 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Works for me. Mark On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > Okay, here's what I did. > > > > First, in "choice" I made changes to the text to recommend alphabetization > following "most significant order" thus: > > > > -- > > Use variant subtags sparingly and in the correct order. Most variant > subtags have a 'Prefix' field or fields that express the list of subtags > that they are appropriate with. Variants SHOULD only be used with subtags > that appear in one of these 'Prefix' fields. If a variant lists another > variant in one of its 'Prefix' fields, it SHOULD appear directly after that > variant in any language tag where both occur. General purpose variants > (those with no 'Prefix' fields at all) SHOULD appear after any other variant > subtags. Order any remaining variants by placing the most significant subtag > first. If none of the subtags is more significant or no relationship can be > determined, alphabetize the subtags. Because variants are very specialized, > using many of them together generally makes the tag so narrow as to override > the additional precision gained. Putting the subtags into another order > interferes with interoperability, as well as the overall interpretation of > the tag. > > > > > > > > For example, the tag "en-scottish-fonipa" (English, Scottish dialect, > IPA phonetic transcription) is correctly ordered because 'scottish' has a > 'Prefix' of "en", while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix' field. > > > > For example, the tag "sl-IT-rozaj-biske-1994" is correctly ordered: > 'rozaj' lists "sl" as its sole 'Prefix'; 'biske' lists "sl-rozaj" as its > sole Prefix. The subtag '1994' has several prefixes, including "sl-rozaj". > However, it follows both 'rozaj' and 'biske' because one of its 'Prefix' > fields is "sl-rozaj-biske". > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Then, in canonicalization I removed the text from the required > canonicalizations. However, I think it makes sense to mention it there and > permit it. So I included this text: > > > > If more than one variant appears within a tag, processors MAY reorder > the variants to obtain better matching behavior or more consistent > presentation. Reordering of the variants SHOULD follow the recommendations > for variant ordering in . > > > > > > Does that work for everyone? > > > > Addison > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2008 8:34 AM > *To:* Martin Duerst > *Cc:* Phillips, Addison; ltru@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants > > > > > Mark > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 6:42 PM, Martin Duerst > wrote: > > At 08:51 08/07/18, Mark Davis wrote: > >There are two parts that I think you don't have yet in the choice; order > by prefix relations (you have) then most significant tag first, then > alphabetic. > > [as a technical contributor] > > If 'alphabetic' comes after most significant subtag first, I'm able > to tolerate it in a section on how to create tags. > > > > good > > > > When it comes to > any potential change of tags, I think the best advice we can give > is 'leave as is', and I very much do not want to see 'alphabetical' > in there, because the "most important" may be a judgement by the > creator, which should be respected. > > > > I'm ok with leaving that out -- it sounds like we may have sufficient > consensus to move forward on this, putting in the tag wisely. > > > > (On the side, since I *really* don't want to stir this up again: my view > is if I pass in a tag xx-variant1-variant2 and some collection of data > has xx-variant2-variant1, as far as I'm concerned that should return as a > perfect match: as likely as not, any difference in the ordering is purely > arbitrary on the part of either the user making the first tag or the user > making the second tag. And if they are a perfect match, that implies that > the canonical forms should be the same. But there is clearly no consensus on > that so the important thing is to close this and move on.) > > > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > >Then I'm happy. (Well, reasonably. There is that whole war in Iraq, and > melting economy, and moron president thing...) > > [chair hat on: let's concentrate on the work of this WG :-] > > > > > > > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > ------=_Part_14592_16740324.1216405752518 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Works for me.

Mark

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

Okay, here's what I did.

 

First, in "choice" I made changes to the text to recommend alphabetization following "most significant order" thus:

 

--

<t>Use variant subtags sparingly and in the correct order. Most variant subtags have a 'Prefix' field or fields that express the list of subtags that they are appropriate with. Variants SHOULD only be used with subtags that appear in one of these 'Prefix' fields. If a variant lists another variant in one of its 'Prefix' fields, it SHOULD appear directly after that variant in any language tag where both occur. General purpose variants (those with no 'Prefix' fields at all) SHOULD appear after any other variant subtags. Order any remaining variants by placing the most significant subtag first. If none of the subtags is more significant or no relationship can be determined, alphabetize the subtags. Because variants are very specialized, using many of them together generally makes the tag so narrow as to override the additional precision gained. Putting the subtags into another order interferes with interoperability, as well as the overall interpretation of the tag.

 

<list style="letters">

 

<t>For example, the tag "en-scottish-fonipa" (English, Scottish dialect, IPA phonetic transcription) is correctly ordered because 'scottish' has a 'Prefix' of "en", while 'fonipa' has no 'Prefix' field.</t>

 

<t>For example, the tag "sl-IT-rozaj-biske-1994" is correctly ordered: 'rozaj' lists "sl" as its sole 'Prefix'; 'biske' lists "sl-rozaj" as its sole Prefix. The subtag '1994' has several prefixes, including "sl-rozaj". However, it follows both 'rozaj' and 'biske' because one of its 'Prefix' fields is "sl-rozaj-biske".</t>

 

</list>

</t>

--

 

Then, in canonicalization I removed the text from the required canonicalizations. However, I think it makes sense to mention it there and permit it. So I included this text:

 

<t>If more than one variant appears within a tag, processors MAY reorder the variants to obtain better matching behavior or more consistent presentation. Reordering of the variants SHOULD  follow the recommendations for variant ordering in <xref target="choice"></xref>.</t>

 

 

Does that work for everyone?

 

Addison

 

Addison Phillips

Globalization Architect -- Lab126

 

Internationalization is not a feature.

It is an architecture.

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 8:34 AM
To: Martin Duerst
Cc: Phillips, Addison; ltru@ietf.org


Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants

 


Mark

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 6:42 PM, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:

At 08:51 08/07/18, Mark Davis wrote:
>There are two parts that I think you don't have yet in the choice; order by prefix relations (you have) then most significant tag first, then alphabetic.

[as a technical contributor]

If 'alphabetic' comes after most significant subtag first, I'm able
to tolerate it in a section on how to create tags.

 

good

 

When it comes to
any potential change of tags, I think the best advice we can give
is 'leave as is', and I very much do not want to see 'alphabetical'
in there, because the "most important" may be a judgement by the
creator, which should be respected.

 

I'm ok with leaving that out -- it sounds like we may have sufficient consensus to move forward on this, putting in the tag wisely.

 

(On the side, since I really don't want to stir this up again: my view is if I pass in a tag xx-variant1-variant2 and some collection of data has xx-variant2-variant1, as far as I'm concerned that should return as a perfect match: as likely as not, any difference in the ordering is purely arbitrary on the part of either the user making the first tag or the user making the second tag. And if they are a perfect match, that implies that the canonical forms should be the same. But there is clearly no consensus on that so the important thing is to close this and move on.)

 



Regards,   Martin.



>Then I'm happy. (Well, reasonably. There is that whole war in Iraq, and melting economy, and moron president thing...)

[chair hat on: let's concentrate on the work of this WG :-] 

 







#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

 


------=_Part_14592_16740324.1216405752518-- --===============1223336018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1223336018==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 20 20:30:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20AB83A6A37; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:30:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2E23A6867 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:30:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f99TAJ8M7kzT for ; 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charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSd2ZSBjb21iZWQgdGhyb3VnaCBkcmFmdC00NjQ2YmlzLTE3IGxvb2tpbmcgZm9yIGNoYW5nZXMg dGhhdCB3b3VsZCAKYWZmZWN0IGRyYWZ0LTQ2NDViaXMuCgpBcyBhIHJlbWluZGVyLCBkcmFmdC00 NjQ1YmlzLTA1IHdhcyBzdWJtaXR0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIFJGQyBFZGl0b3Igb24gTWF5IDggCihyZWZl cmVuY2luZyBkcmFmdC00NjQ2YmlzLTEzKSwgYW5kIEkgaGF2ZSBhbiBlZGl0b3IncyBjb3B5IG9m IApkcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzLTA2IGRhdGVkIEp1bmUgMjEgb24gbXkgV2ViIHNpdGUgdGhhdCByZWZl cmVuY2VzIApkcmFmdC00NjQ2YmlzLTE1LiAgKFNvcnJ5IGFib3V0IHRoZSBudW1iZXIgc291cCBo ZXJlOyBJIGNvdWxkbid0IHRoaW5rIApvZiBhIGJldHRlciB3YXkgdG8gZXhwbGFpbiB0aGlzIHdp dGhvdXQgdXNpbmcgYSB0YWJsZS4pIApEcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzLTA2IHdpbGwgYmUgZWRpdGVkIHRv IHJlZmxlY3QgdGhlIGNoYW5nZXMgZGVzY3JpYmVkIGhlcmUgCmJlZm9yZSBiZWluZyBzdWJtaXR0 ZWQuCgpUaGUgY2hhbmdlcyBJJ3ZlIGZvdW5kIGFyZSBhcyBmb2xsb3dzOgoKMS4gIEZvciBlYWNo IERlc2NyaXB0aW9uIGZpZWxkIHRoYXQgb2NjdXJzIGluIHR3byBvciBtb3JlIG5vbi1kZXByZWNh dGVkIApzdWJ0YWdzIG9mIHRoZSBzYW1lIHR5cGUsIHdlIG5lZWQgdG8gY2hhbmdlIGF0IGxlYXN0 IG9uZSB0byBlbGltaW5hdGUgCnRoZSBkdXBsaWNhdGlvbi4gIEkgd2lsbCBzZW5kIHByb3Bvc2Vk IGNoYW5nZXMgdG8gYm90aCB0aGUgCmlldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIGFuZCBMVFJVIGxpc3RzLCBhbmQg d2lsbCB0YWtlIGFueSBmZWVkYmFjayBpbnRvIGFjY291bnQgCndoZW4gcmV2aXNpbmcgdGhlIGRy YWZ0LgoKMi4gIEZvciBlYWNoIHJlY29yZCBjb250YWluaW5nIERlc2NyaXB0aW9uIGZpZWxkcyB0 aGF0IGRpZmZlciBvbmx5IGluIApzdHlsaXN0aWMgdXNhZ2Ugb2YgYXBvc3Ryb3BoZXMsIGh5cGhl bnMsIGFuZCBzbyBmb3J0aCAoc3VjaCBhcyBHZSdleiBhbmQgCkdlyrtleiksIHdlIG5lZWQgdG8g cGljayBvbmUgYW5kIGRpc2NhcmQgdGhlIHJlc3QuICBJIHdpbGwgc2VuZCB0aGUgCnJlbGV2YW50 IHJlY29yZHMgdG8gYm90aCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3RzLCBhc2sgZm9yIGEgcm91Z2ggY29uc2Vuc3Vz IGFzIHRvIAp0aGUgcHJlZmVycmVkIHJlbmRlcmluZywgYW5kIGFzayB0aGUgUmV2aWV3ZXIgdG8g bWFrZSB0aGUgZmluYWwgCmRlY2lzaW9uLCB0YWtpbmcgYW55IGxpc3QgZmVlZGJhY2sgaW50byBh Y2NvdW50LgoKSXNzdWVzIHRoYXQgd2Ugc3RpbGwgaGF2ZW4ndCByZXNvbHZlZCBpbmNsdWRlOgoK My4gIHdoZXRoZXIgdG8gY2hhbmdlIHRoZSBsaXN0IG9mIGxhbmd1YWdlcyB0aGF0IGhhdmUgZXh0 bGFuZ3MgCihjdXJyZW50bHkgYXIsIGtvaywgbXMsIHNnbiwgc3csIHV6LCB6aCksIGFuZCBpZiB3 ZSBkbyBjaGFuZ2UgaXQsIHdoYXQgCmV4cGxhbmF0aW9uIHRvIHByb3ZpZGUgZm9yIHRoZSBjaG9p Y2UgaW4gZHJhZnQtNDY0NWJpcwoKNC4gIHdoZXRoZXIgZXh0bGFuZ3MgY2FuIGhhdmUgU3VwcHJl c3MtU2NyaXB0IChxdWVzdGlvbiBhc2tlZCBieSBBZGRpc29uIAp3aXRoIHNwZWNpYWwgYXR0ZW50 aW9uIHRvIHRoZSBBcmFiaWMgZXh0bGFuZ3MpCgpJIHdvdWxkIGhvcGUgdGhhdCB3ZSBjYW4gcmVz b2x2ZSB0aGVzZSByZW1haW5pbmcgcXVlc3Rpb25zIHdpdGggYXQgbGVhc3QgCmFzIG11Y2ggYW5h bHl0aWNhbCBlZmZvcnQgYW5kIGVuZXJneSBhcyB3ZSBkZXZvdGVkIHRvIHRoZSBsYXJnZWx5IAp0 aGVvcmV0aWNhbCBxdWVzdGlvbiBvZiBhcnJhbmdpbmcgbXVsdGlwbGUgcHJlZml4bGVzcyB2YXJp YW50cyB3aXRoaW4gYSAKdGFnLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRv LCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0 cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8v d3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGlu ZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 00:29:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02B83A68AB; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:29:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72FD3A68C0 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.147 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.582, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_24_48=1.219, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TWDW5tAQJqjG for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4AE3A68AB for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6L7TpIJ013537 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:29:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 4937_ce0f9510_56f6_11dd_890d_0014221f2a2d; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:29:51 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:58340) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:23:44 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080720110142.09677390@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:16:36 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807180833k3c3c6979j807689e0d575dc13@mail.gmail.co m> References: <20080709140134.40b87606@sil-mh4> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA013BEF6F92@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014757047A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171513gad17ad6hd8bc601d3a75a8c4@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147570669@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171639v4fb08dcetb40ab80c8bc977a5@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01475706BF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807171651r2defcf0cxff267809b7bc3de1@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080718104016.074fead8@localhost> <30b660a20807180833k3c3c6979j807689e0d575dc13@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Canonical variants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I'm happy with Addison's latest text, too. At 00:33 08/07/19, Mark Davis wrote: >(On the side, since I really don't want to stir this up again: my view is if I pass in a tag xx-variant1-variant2 and some collection of data has xx-variant2-variant1, as far as I'm concerned that should return as a perfect match: as likely as not, any difference in the ordering is purely arbitrary on the part of either the user making the first tag or the user making the second tag. And if they are a perfect match, that implies that the canonical forms should be the same. ...) [On the side, too: If the extension subtags are independent, then yes, ideally, they should match as you describe. But that's not what RFC 4647 says, nor is it what implementations do. So assume, for lack of better examples, that we have two independent subtags "northern" and "western" (I know these are bad examples, because such general variant subtags have explicitly been rejected). Now assume that in language xyz, whether a variant is western or not is much more important than whether it's northern or not, so the tag order would in general be xyz-western-northern, to allow the best possible fallback. In another language, say zyx, it could be that northern is more important, so everybody would use zyx-northern-western. In both cases, it would be rather clear what to use to actual users, but just using alphabetic order would be counter-productive, at least for zyx. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 10:24:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AFD628C116; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:24:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339AE28C116 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:24:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.767 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.767 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.391, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6] 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h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=cwXNrCBDvCy8REdnHXVsC3nCcHWmWACrIqua7i/f8NtfnbwthrWue/Njo9ozih+DPU wKVIrKctH3fF4yrcr2NBbKAIRNWC5yvuJ0NvfBeKY4Il0YnuGq0icr6EbMI9sE5oXrAs NkxBqtvP8Ob8SmkScOIe65mmp3mruoougUfZ8= Received: by 10.150.51.2 with SMTP id y2mr1195306yby.203.1216661090584; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.149.10 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:24:50 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5404c753038715ee Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2062553153==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 14:00:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D863A6A54; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:00:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 847493A6A54 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:00:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.461 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.461 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.463, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org 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"Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Doug Ewell Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:01:15 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis Thread-Index: AcjrVrLckj9ZVBUFSMic0iBL7G+EEQAEXMXg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75E9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0306068101==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: 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localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A26DC3A6A2B for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:31:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7B6mseP5s9fV for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5C628C1C8 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:31:25 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,225,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="79312297" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 21 Jul 2008 21:32:05 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6LLW3q7030703 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:32:05 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:32:03 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:32:02 -0700 Thread-Topic: editor copy updated... Thread-Index: AcjreTbEnmqt6tRIS9m76Ihecr7rnw== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75F65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] editor copy updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I have updated the editor's copy of draft-17 on inter-locale just now, including the various edits just posted on this list. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 14:32:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCFF528C1B9; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C4A3A6929 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:32:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.051 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.051 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lP6nE5NsYnSd for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FEDA3A68CA for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so594256ywj.49 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:33:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=JC/OCzqZstun3GQ9BpCHHgR4MZukMyITU5jn8TI4wzM=; b=vqb1Qajvacw7SrwMlshpFc+TAvrJgxF+H5Ju4Q94bR4O2+6NiFO3LoeYTMhIoHlNkg Sp9KuYb4t9XBPp66PMiy42Y2/J3uVojCyf6jQ5A/4oYLIXWUJ7h9fpOgMeE4XQCnhY+L mTr8Oky0yd1Tj0MwSu4DeTyvnIYSQhPEw6xPQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=qhfe2uY1OtlEgYPSzMN3wRq34eF9PlP9IqNtFkHDH9E5vpDqHQtZ+/4X9cC409Y4bI sJ0/zDAW+oFTi0pFiZPVf/yT+YbaUJvFog5wl5W0fGKWJpxuOaIQfJQufk8TeTpLhDr8 28ZkpQuZ2vTXsZ1tbHmn0sH+M50ubZJtFg8kY= Received: by 10.150.228.12 with SMTP id a12mr4421968ybh.105.1216676013837; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.149.10 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807211433h76a281f7sdb05d792efeef56c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:33:33 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75E9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75E9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 504ae537b08de403 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org 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Pjxicj48L2ZvbnQ+PC9kaXY+Cg== ------=_Part_37643_19230614.1216676013814-- --===============0723184924== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0723184924==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 14:45:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27FEA3A6802; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:45:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 407433A6802 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:45:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.705 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.705 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.107, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jmt1MGPAVGzW for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1888A3A68C6 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:45:24 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,225,1215388800"; d="scan'208,217";a="79317761" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 21 Jul 2008 21:46:03 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6LLk1Y1007922 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:46:02 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:46:01 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:45:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis Thread-Index: AcjreXBtd/arf4/CRQq5JAzCbrsKjQAALxVw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75FB9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75E9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807211433h76a281f7sdb05d792efeef56c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807211433h76a281f7sdb05d792efeef56c@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis 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Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D3C3A68C6; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:46:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D303A68C6 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:46:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HiPV2sVNiuMJ for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB203A67AC for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so598004ywj.49 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:47:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=X3Ep6x0gtcrDRe1iETA+YWPyT66PtqxwwqBrQFiSfC4=; b=UT5EoiBXJ32+gh6eT7HvefBKJGpzSOLGyCBqW6wik0fqVJj+7n0drs3JZLAjhQ23qe 0wTrXxSDiEypyvboevTy+iRPI+maDQGrT+/PTlnBvWYObMHSxjzai7OG4GwLIqXP0fT7 +VKBTAuiH8mealLQtrP+8ALBE1slUqx1OluaU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=U+XWZaxvk0EfcBnJu1h8yGTeHFT9pIAsfGJPxo3EBEkfgGyJjWfVy4LQzE2PtsRMMG +lna7z65Dn2k4JwCuPbatEM49dVC9jVjzo0xNDsnQlM9YS6Q0K0O+xSSQwS3zRqfeVt6 8HSgBI/xu1zW1Mcp1QHTyPCkUqOHKcKt8rrlE= Received: by 10.150.124.2 with SMTP id w2mr4425508ybc.170.1216676821043; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.149.10 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807211447o1e2f93aap82c77342edd31f5d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:47:00 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75F65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75F65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7fe75c50dc04635f Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor copy updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0652093248==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0652093248== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_37948_23707419.1216676820759" ------=_Part_37948_23707419.1216676820759 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Looks good. If you add SS to extlang (note, I don't think that's optimal but I can live with it), then you have to change: 9. The field 'Suppress-Script' MAY be added or removed via the registration process. However, for records of type extlang the Suppress-Script field MUST be synchronized with the Suppress-Script field on the corresponding primary language subtag. Thus if the extlang 'abh' has Suppress-Script: Arab, then the language 'abh' MUST have Suppress-Script: Arab. If the extlang 'yue' as no Suppress-Script, then the language 'yue' MUST have no Suppress-Script. Mark On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > Hi, > > I have updated the editor's copy of draft-17 on inter-locale just now, > including the various edits just posted on this list. > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_37948_23707419.1216676820759 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Looks good. If you add SS to extlang (note, I don't think that's optimal but I can live with it), then you have to change:

9. The field 'Suppress-Script' MAY be added or removed via the registration process. However, for records of type extlang the Suppress-Script field MUST be synchronized with the Suppress-Script field on the corresponding primary language subtag. Thus if the extlang 'abh' has Suppress-Script: Arab, then the language 'abh' MUST have Suppress-Script: Arab. If the extlang 'yue' as no Suppress-Script, then the language 'yue' MUST have no Suppress-Script.

Mark

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
Hi,

I have updated the editor's copy of draft-17 on inter-locale just now, including the various edits just posted on this list.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_37948_23707419.1216676820759-- --===============0652093248== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0652093248==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 14:54:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9F93A6A05; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:54:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 780A33A6882 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:54:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hzAJMCUb1sGY for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71C53A69F1 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so289604yxg.49 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:55:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=CTJqg79GVon9KSxg4Fz3b4XhvpoQ4NxHHPm7Aq0gwzs=; b=E1VvRrTtSiY42LYNcD88e59bb/xihPYh5GKR7w1AXcgoJ8UEp3nya/dRj3GUoOSyVg eOACvDURuKL+vaGjSo6kKyZg2t4fpiBlpjp5wSZuz/2yqCcUeLxksUwVP4udikjMseNE poJlYdPn/6Dzl0Pdad79K39behMpXq/vCanxc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=YiADhuiEWaXzb6r2TsNvqelGgmGSYfwIw0Y+tWyUQoWhjAKuhWYMAlsT6jUA6e9Dw0 SfjaOWRvGHj/fPZnZKubVXOyYf75d/2ONn5nzdvQkFlhsn//o4YZ8tcCY37N6sb1pTCR hdw/9+FpKiU5kQTY3DO1N105p9nrV6PgHSoGE= Received: by 10.151.145.17 with SMTP id x17mr4451110ybn.102.1216677324924; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.149.10 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807211455m209e4903jd2befd64fddd5bfe@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:55:24 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75FB9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75E9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807211433h76a281f7sdb05d792efeef56c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75FB9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: d707010b253892f5 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1936247936==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1936247936== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_38057_20192995.1216677324931" ------=_Part_38057_20192995.1216677324931 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mark On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > > > Records other than those of type 'extlang' that contain a > 'Preferred-Value' field MUST also have a 'Deprecated' field. This field > contains the date on which the tag or subtag was deprecated in favor of the > preferred value.For records of type 'extlang', the 'Preferred-Value' > field appears without a corresponding 'Deprecated' field. An implementation > MAY ignore these preferred value mappings, although if it ignores the > mapping, it SHOULD do so consistently. It SHOULD also treat the > Preferred-Value as equivalent to the mapped item. For example, the tags > "zh-yue-Hant-HK" and "yue-Hant-HK" are semantically equivalent and ought to > be treated as if they were the same tag. > > > all good (we could make the first MUST be a SHOULD, but I'm ok with your > text). > > > > AP> We could do that, but it would be a change in the rules. That is, we > don't now allow a value to have a preferred value unless we mean to > deprecate it. Other than the extlang case (which I regard as handwaving), > are there any cases in which we would have a P-V without also deprecating > the non-preferred value? > I'm ok with your text (my reservations are minor; and I don't want to make an issue of them). > > > > [in 3.1.9. Suppress-Script Field] > ADD AT END > Tags formed using extlangs are equivalent to those with the extlang subtag > as the primary language subtag; thus the Suppress-Script field for the > primary language subtag applies to tags using the corresponding extlang. For > example, if 'abh' has Suppress-Script: Arab, then Arb should be suppressed > from both ar-abh-AF and abh-AF. > > > > (editor hat OFF) Wouldn't we just include the S-S field in the records of > type extlang? > > > Because they there is always the chance that we screw up the > synchronization. If we include the S-S by reference that can't happen. If > we include the SS field in extlang fields, then we also have to add the rule > for the Language Reviewer that anything that every extlang MUST have an SS > if and only if the corresponding primary language subtag does. > > > > AP> And, just to make trouble, can an extlang have a different S-S from its > Macrolanguage?? > There is nothing fundamental about the relationship that requires the same scripts. 'sr' and 'hr' share the same macrolanguage, but don't have the same default script. > And can an extlang have an S-S and its macrolanguage not have one. > Clearly yes. > For example, could 'gan' have an S-S of Hans even though zh does not (and > should not)? > Yes. > Maybe we should go the other direction and inherit from Macrolanguage. > No. We should impose all and only those conditions that are required. And the required condition is that "zh-yue" and "yue", being equivalent, need to have the same SS. If we make the SS of the corresponding primary language subtag apply to the entlang, then we don't have the possibility of mismatches in the repository. But I send you possible language if you (and others) really want it in there. > > > > Addison > > > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > > ------=_Part_38057_20192995.1216677324931 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Mark

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

                                                                          

<t>Records other than those of type 'extlang' that contain a 'Preferred-Value' field MUST also have a 'Deprecated' field. This field contains the date on which the tag or subtag was deprecated in favor of the preferred value.</t><t>For records of type 'extlang', the 'Preferred-Value' field appears without a corresponding 'Deprecated' field. An implementation MAY ignore these preferred value mappings, although if it ignores the mapping, it SHOULD do so consistently. It SHOULD also treat the Preferred-Value as equivalent to the mapped item. For example, the tags "zh-yue-Hant-HK" and "yue-Hant-HK" are semantically equivalent and ought to be treated as if they were the same tag.</t>


all good (we could make the first MUST be a SHOULD, but I'm ok with your text).

 

AP> We could do that, but it would be a change in the rules. That is, we don't now allow a value to have a preferred value unless we mean to deprecate it. Other than the extlang case (which I regard as handwaving), are there any cases in which we would have a P-V without also deprecating the non-preferred value?


I'm ok with your text (my reservations are minor; and I don't want to make an issue of them).

 


[in 3.1.9.  Suppress-Script Field]
ADD AT END
Tags formed using extlangs are equivalent to those with the extlang subtag as the primary language subtag; thus the Suppress-Script field for the primary language subtag applies to tags using the corresponding extlang. For example, if 'abh' has Suppress-Script: Arab, then Arb should be suppressed from both ar-abh-AF and abh-AF.

 

(editor hat OFF) Wouldn't we just include the S-S field in the records of type extlang?


Because they there is always the chance that we screw up the synchronization.  If we include the S-S by reference that can't happen. If we include the SS field in extlang fields, then we also have to add the rule for the Language Reviewer that anything that every extlang MUST have an SS if and only if the corresponding primary language subtag does.

 

AP> And, just to make trouble, can an extlang have a different S-S from its Macrolanguage??


There is nothing fundamental about the relationship that requires the same scripts. 'sr' and 'hr' share the same macrolanguage, but don't have the same default script.

 

And can an extlang have an S-S and its macrolanguage not have one.


Clearly yes.
 

For example, could 'gan' have an S-S of Hans even though zh does not (and should not)?


Yes.

Maybe we should go the other direction and inherit from Macrolanguage.


No. We should impose all and only those conditions that are required. And the required condition is that "zh-yue" and "yue", being equivalent, need to have the same SS. If we make the SS of the corresponding primary language subtag apply to the entlang, then we don't have the possibility of mismatches in the repository. But I send you possible language if you (and others) really want it in there.

 

 

Addison

 

 

Addison Phillips

Globalization Architect -- Lab126

 

Internationalization is not a feature.

It is an architecture.

 

 


------=_Part_38057_20192995.1216677324931-- --===============1936247936== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1936247936==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 15:11:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3C73A67F5; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:11:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A74B3A67AC for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:11:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xyjZ9yQqqRRC for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DABC63A67F5 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KL3bg-0004jn-3y; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:11:48 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:11:48 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20080721221147.GO26672@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75F65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75F65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor copy updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > I have updated the editor's copy of draft-17 on inter-locale just now, > including the various edits just posted on this list. Just a few editorial nits: Section 3.4, bullet point 17: s/did so/became so/; becoming is not a species of doing (in technical language "become" is an unaccusative verb). 3.5, paragraph beginning "Requests to add a 'Prefix' field to a variant subtag", add to end: Variant subtags based on the terminology of the language to which they apply are encouraged. Or put this somewhere else. 4.1 bullet point 2: s/this field by defines/this field defines/. 4.1 bullet point 6: If a variant lists another variant in one of its 'Prefix' fields, it SHOULD appear directly after that variant in any language tag where both occur. is confusing; rewrite as: If a variant lists a second variant in one of its 'Prefix' fields, the first variant SHOULD appear directly after the second variant in any language tag where both occur. 4.1.1: s/Each Macrolanguage/Each macrolanguage/. 5: s/steps to reasonably ascertain/reasonable steps to ascertain/. -- Dream projects long deferred John Cowan usually bite the wax tadpole. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --James Lileks _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 15:36:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DAED3A6811; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:36:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33B913A6833 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:36:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UoDCHRH0+Sev for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C573A6802 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:36:19 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,225,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="79333657" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 21 Jul 2008 22:36:53 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6LMao1o000405 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:36:53 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:36:50 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:36:23 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:36:49 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editor copy updated... Thread-Index: AcjrfsrjHVjh9j4VTICBtxtNFEe92AAAYkVA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F760CE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75F65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080721221147.GO26672@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080721221147.GO26672@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor copy updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) John Cowan wrote: > > Just a few editorial nits: > > Section 3.4, bullet point 17: s/did so/became so/; becoming is not > a > species of doing (in technical language "become" is an unaccusative > verb). DONE. Actually said "became redundant" for clarity. > > 3.5, paragraph beginning "Requests to add a 'Prefix' field to a > variant > subtag", add to end: > > Variant subtags based on the terminology of the language to > which they apply are encouraged. > > Or put this somewhere else. DONE. There are two paragraphs that begin that way, both of which prohibit changing the semantic meaning of a subtag. I'm not sure this applies to either. I therefore added this to the paragraph about "use with a particular range" the precedes both, which now reads: -- Variant subtags are usually registered for use with a particular range of language tags and variant subtags based on the terminology of the language to which they are apply are encouraged. For example, the subtag 'rozaj' (Resian) is intended for use with language tags that start with the primary language subtag "sl" (Slovenian), since Resian is a dialect of Slovenian. Thus, the subtag 'rozaj' would be appropriate in tags such as "sl-Latn-rozaj" or "sl-IT-rozaj". This information is stored in the 'Prefix' field in the registry. Variant registration requests SHOULD include at least one 'Prefix' field in the registration form. -- > > 4.1 bullet point 2: s/this field by defines/this field defines/. DONE. > > 4.1 bullet point 6: > > If a variant lists another variant in one of its 'Prefix' > fields, > it SHOULD appear directly after that variant in any > language > tag where both occur. > > is confusing; rewrite as: > > If a variant lists a second variant in one of its 'Prefix' > fields, > the first variant SHOULD appear directly after the second > variant > in any language tag where both occur. DONE. That's a much better phrasing for something that I'd noodled around with for awhile. > > 4.1.1: s/Each Macrolanguage/Each macrolanguage/. DONE. > > 5: s/steps to reasonably ascertain/reasonable steps to ascertain/. DONE Thanks: very helpful. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 21:31:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993A33A69F0; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:31:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D59528C0DB for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:31:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.554 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nZapiUMxAnih for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.221]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A3D9028C0CE for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10448 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2008 04:32:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (24.8.49.56) by smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.221) with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2008 04:32:20 -0000 Message-ID: <1766F5EE1D5A4CA2A090C63798A4002A@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:32:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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22 Jul 2008 04:37:48 -0000 Message-ID: <7A912B335D5443DD87D7F51CEA16CB44@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75E9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807211433h76a281f7sdb05d792efeef56c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:37:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyB3cm90ZToKCj4+IChlZGl0b3IgaGF0IE9GRikgV291bGRuJ3Qgd2UganVzdCBp bmNsdWRlIHRoZSBTLVMgZmllbGQgaW4gdGhlIAo+PiByZWNvcmRzIG9mIHR5cGUgZXh0bGFuZz8K Pgo+IEJlY2F1c2UgdGhleSB0aGVyZSBpcyBhbHdheXMgdGhlIGNoYW5jZSB0aGF0IHdlIHNjcmV3 IHVwIHRoZSAKPiBzeW5jaHJvbml6YXRpb24uICBJZiB3ZSBpbmNsdWRlIHRoZSBTLVMgYnkgcmVm ZXJlbmNlIHRoYXQgY2FuJ3QgCj4gaGFwcGVuLiBJZiB3ZSBpbmNsdWRlIHRoZSBTUyBmaWVsZCBp biBleHRsYW5nIGZpZWxkcywgdGhlbiB3ZSBhbHNvIAo+IGhhdmUgdG8gYWRkIHRoZSBydWxlIGZv ciB0aGUgTGFuZ3VhZ2UgUmV2aWV3ZXIgdGhhdCBhbnl0aGluZyB0aGF0IAo+IGV2ZXJ5IGV4dGxh bmcgTVVTVCBoYXZlIGFuIFNTIGlmIGFuZCBvbmx5IGlmIHRoZSBjb3JyZXNwb25kaW5nIHByaW1h cnkgCj4gbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugc3VidGFnIGRvZXMuCgpBIHByaW1hcnktZXh0bGFuZyBjb21iaW5hdGlv biBzaG91bGQgdGFrZSBpdHMgU3VwcHJlc3MtU2NyaXB0LCBpZiBhbnksIApmcm9tIHRoZSBwcmlt YXJ5IGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZy4KClByb2JsZW06IElmIHlvdSBoYXZlIHNvbWUgZmxhdm9yIG9m IEFyYWJpYywgZGVub3RlZCBieSBhbiBleHRsYW5nLCB0aGF0IAppc24ndCB3cml0dGVuIG92ZXJ3 aGVsbWluZ2x5IGluIHRoZSBBcmFiaWMgc2NyaXB0LCBob3cgZG8geW91IGludGVycHJldCAKdGhl IGFic2VuY2Ugb2YgYSBzY3JpcHQgc3VidGFnPyAgKEkgcGVyc29uYWxseSBkb24ndCB0aGluayB0 aGlzIGlzIGEgCmh1Z2UgcmVhbC13b3JsZCBwcm9ibGVtLCBidXQgaXQncyB0aGUgc29ydCBvZiB0 aGluZyB3ZSBpbiBMVFJVIGxvdmUgdG8gCmR3ZWxsIG9uLikKCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRo b3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3 LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFy dGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1s YW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 21:40:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C4BE3A68DF; 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22 Jul 2008 04:38:17 -0000 Message-ID: <41A6F830FBA14A24A3B17CFC5104402A@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75E9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807211433h76a281f7sdb05d792efeef56c@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75FB9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20807211455m209e4903jd2befd64fddd5bfe@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:40:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Received: from [68.164.91.161] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KL9qJ-0001rJ-1C for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:51:19 -0400 Message-ID: <005f01c8ebb6$9bc1be40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75E9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><30b660a20807211433h76a281f7sdb05d792efeef56c@mail.gmail.com> <7A912B335D5443DD87D7F51CEA16CB44@DGBP7M81> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:51:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b3ea96d0e21de2c2d04247a30cf0ae4cc2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.91.161 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor.... > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis > > Mark Davis wrote: > > >> (editor hat OFF) Wouldn't we just include the S-S field in the > >> records of type extlang? > > > > Because they there is always the chance that we screw up the > > synchronization. If we include the S-S by reference that can't > > happen. If we include the SS field in extlang fields, then we also > > have to add the rule for the Language Reviewer that anything that > > every extlang MUST have an SS if and only if the corresponding primary > > language subtag does. > > A primary-extlang combination should take its Suppress-Script, if any, > from the primary language subtag. > > Problem: If you have some flavor of Arabic, denoted by an extlang, that > isn't written overwhelmingly in the Arabic script, how do you interpret > the absence of a script subtag? (I personally don't think this is a > huge real-world problem, but it's the sort of thing we in LTRU love to > dwell on.) For precisely this reason, the Supress-Script (if any) associated with a particular subtag should not be presumed to indicate what the Supress-Script would be for something else, even in the case of a primary-extlang combination, even if they are overwhelmingly likely to have the same value. I don't think it is reasonable to *require* every extlang to have the same suppress-script as the corresponding primary language tag. (Particularly if we remember that the original intention of Supress-Script was compatibility with existing data that lacked script subtags, and would not be an issue for newly regstered languages since, by definition, there would be no legacy data.) Putting in a rule to require them to "propagate" or to be the same would be a false economy, in my opinion. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 22:04:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1165828C0DB; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:04:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47713A6846 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:04:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A4rkFHktuMAw for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E743728C0DB for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KLA3N-0001Qh-JR; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:04:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:04:49 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20080722050449.GA21735@mercury.ccil.org> References: <7A912B335D5443DD87D7F51CEA16CB44@DGBP7M81> <005f01c8ebb6$9bc1be40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <005f01c8ebb6$9bc1be40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > Problem: If you have some flavor of Arabic, denoted by an extlang, that > > isn't written overwhelmingly in the Arabic script, how do you interpret > > the absence of a script subtag? (I personally don't think this is a > > huge real-world problem, but it's the sort of thing we in LTRU love to > > dwell on.) > > For precisely this reason, the Supress-Script (if any) associated with > a particular subtag should not be presumed to indicate what the > Supress-Script would be for something else, even in the case of a > primary-extlang combination, even if they are overwhelmingly likely > to have the same value. I don't think it is reasonable to *require* > every extlang to have the same suppress-script as the corresponding > primary language tag. -1 Having a Suppress-Script or not, and what particular value it has, is a property of a language, not a way of describing that language. It is not reasonable for xx-yyy to have a different S-S value from yyy, since xx-yyy and yyy are synonymous, any more than it would be reasonable for he and iw to have different S-S values. It *is* reasonable for xx-yyy and xx to have different S-S values. > (Particularly if we remember that the original intention of > Supress-Script was compatibility with existing data that lacked script > subtags, and would not be an issue for newly regstered languages since, > by definition, there would be no legacy data.) That's true. Unfortunately, several xx-yyy forms are legacy. > Putting in a rule to require them to "propagate" or to be the same > would be a false economy, in my opinion. How a false economy? It would be an economy (true or false) not to provide S-S headers for both the extlang and the corresponding language tag. It would be inconsistent to allow them to have different values. IMHO it is less confusing to provide the header in both places. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Female celebrity stalker, on a hot morning in Cairo: "Imagine, Colonel Lawrence, ninety-two already!" El Auruns's reply: "Many happy returns of the day!" _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 02:14:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725F63A68B2; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:14:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2DD23A6834 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:14:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.913 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.913 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.336, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WQ4239uLy7gQ for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3903A67D0 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 21CDD1C014E; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:15:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C401C014C; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:15:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC8258EBBD; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:15:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:15:33 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: LTRU Working Group , Language registration Message-ID: <20080722091533.GA1742@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi" Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.24-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Subject: [Ltru] "Conditional GET" now broken on IANA HTTP server X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Reported to IANA. Ticket [IANA #180667] --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from maya.nic.fr [192.134.4.160] by batilda.nic.fr with POP3 (fetchmail-6.3.8) for (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:09:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by maya20.nic.fr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id m6M96lvc1422471 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:06:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) id 2F55158ECC4; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:06:47 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: bortzmeyer@nic.fr Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8BE58EBBD; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:06:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:06:47 +0200 Old-From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Michelle Cotton , iana@iana.org Cc: bortzmeyer@nic.fr Old-Subject: Modification date of IANA registries now misleading (Was: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML Message-ID: <20080722090647.GA31384@nic.fr> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.24-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-UIDL: 7e9b8c46019f58fdcc8a17d28f60f013 X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.1.7 Subject: Modification date of IANA registries now misleading (Was: IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML From: Stephane Bortzmeyer On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 03:04:07PM -0700, Michelle Cotton wrote a message of 115 lines which said: > As first announced in April 2008, IANA is improving the formatting > of its protocol registries by migrating the source format of these > registries to structured XML format. The change had an unexpected side-effect: registries which have *not* been modified (such as the Language Subtag Registry, http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry) now have a Last-Modified of today (the file seems to be recreated each day). For instance, the Language Subtag Registry has: Last-Modified: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:10:08 GMT while its last modification is from 2008-05-07. This breaks "conditional GET", a feature of HTTP which is very useful to avoid overloading the IANA servers. For instance, this requests used to download the registry only if it were new: curl --silent --output language-subtag-registry.TMP --compressed \ --referer http://ltru.generic-nic.net/ --proxy '' --time-cond 20080507 -- http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry but it now downloads it each time I run it. Do note that the successor of RFC 4646 will make this registry ten times bigger and so the issue is serious. --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 05:00:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F9243A6867; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:00:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE5F3A6867 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:00:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.134 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.134 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.465, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7HAFFu-mx6y5 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A9543A6850 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33431 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KLGYB-0006yO-6P for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:01:04 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75E9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><30b660a20807211433h76a281f7sdb05d792efeef56c@mail.gmail.com> <7A912B335D5443DD87D7F51CEA16CB44@DGBP7M81> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:00:58 +0200 Message-ID: <16F5C7077C524378BC611ABB9E91FD86@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 In-Reply-To: <7A912B335D5443DD87D7F51CEA16CB44@DGBP7M81> Thread-Index: AcjrtLX9BCcprImIStmzGoJFAnjH8wAPKwvg X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KLGYB-0006yO-6P. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1KLGYB-0006yO-6P c2e578700366bc84e61c8d2475577e7c Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > A primary-extlang combination should take its Suppress-Script, > if any, from the primary language subtag. For zzz-xxx and xxx to be as equivalent as possible (and I think that is a goal), zzz-xxx must not only take the supress-script from the xxx subtag (as a language subtag, it seems unnecessary to duplicate this information in the record for xxx as extlang). It must even be so that the the supress-script from xxx, ***including its absence*** MUST ***override*** the supress-script from zzz in the zzz-xxx combiniation. So in zzz-xxx the supress-script from the record for zzz is NEVER relevant. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 08:28:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2794D3A6A73; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B9F3A6A73 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.593 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.593 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B1wDu3I7mlvr for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCB63A6A48 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:28:41 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,232,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="13657751" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 22 Jul 2008 15:29:07 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6MFT2nx010756; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:29:06 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:29:02 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:28:34 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Randy Presuhn Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:28:04 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis Thread-Index: AcjruHsdFTJgGlFQRAa5neifIMzN6gAVYDKw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F7679A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <7A912B335D5443DD87D7F51CEA16CB44@DGBP7M81> <005f01c8ebb6$9bc1be40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080722050449.GA21735@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20080722050449.GA21735@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The question is whether xx and yyy can have separate S-S values. I think it is *possible* that this could happen, it just isn't apparent that we have the problem at present. For example, someone pointed out to me that some forms of Arabic use(d) Latin script---it is just that these forms are now extinct. I don't think that xx-yyy and yyy can have different S-S values for the reason John points out: a language either is or is not written in "just one" script. Other combinations seem plausible though: Xx yyy SS a a SS a b SS - a SS a - SS - - Where (a) and (b) are different scripts and (-) represents no SS present. The most unlikely cases are the second and fourth ones (xx has a script and yyy does not or has a separate script). In these cases, a language could be "overwhelmingly written" in a script while a fairly small, usually unremarked, encompassed language is the exception. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of John Cowan > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 10:05 PM > To: Randy Presuhn > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new > draft-4646bis > > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > > > Problem: If you have some flavor of Arabic, denoted by an > extlang, that > > > isn't written overwhelmingly in the Arabic script, how do you > interpret > > > the absence of a script subtag? (I personally don't think this > is a > > > huge real-world problem, but it's the sort of thing we in LTRU > love to > > > dwell on.) > > > > For precisely this reason, the Supress-Script (if any) associated > with > > a particular subtag should not be presumed to indicate what the > > Supress-Script would be for something else, even in the case of a > > primary-extlang combination, even if they are overwhelmingly > likely > > to have the same value. I don't think it is reasonable to > *require* > > every extlang to have the same suppress-script as the > corresponding > > primary language tag. > > -1 > > Having a Suppress-Script or not, and what particular value it has, > is > a property of a language, not a way of describing that language. > It is > not reasonable for xx-yyy to have a different S-S value from yyy, > since > xx-yyy and yyy are synonymous, any more than it would be reasonable > for > he and iw to have different S-S values. It *is* reasonable for xx- > yyy > and xx to have different S-S values. > > > (Particularly if we remember that the original intention of > > Supress-Script was compatibility with existing data that lacked > script > > subtags, and would not be an issue for newly regstered languages > since, > > by definition, there would be no legacy data.) > > That's true. Unfortunately, several xx-yyy forms are legacy. > > > Putting in a rule to require them to "propagate" or to be the > same > > would be a false economy, in my opinion. > > How a false economy? It would be an economy (true or false) not to > provide S-S headers for both the extlang and the corresponding > language > tag. It would be inconsistent to allow them to have different > values. > IMHO it is less confusing to provide the header in both places. > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan > Female celebrity stalker, on a hot morning in Cairo: > "Imagine, Colonel Lawrence, ninety-two already!" > El Auruns's reply: "Many happy returns of the day!" > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 08:50:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C352828C12C; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:50:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9000828C136 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:50:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CRTiET3tj-cy for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F76728C10D for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:50:28 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,232,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="79612917" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 22 Jul 2008 15:51:05 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6MFp3eM001445 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:51:03 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:51:03 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Kent Karlsson , "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:51:02 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis Thread-Index: AcjrtLX9BCcprImIStmzGoJFAnjH8wAPKwvgAAgJZ1A= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F76801@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20807211024r7cd53809ha2c35fa18d9a790b@mail.gmail.com><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0147F75E9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><30b660a20807211433h76a281f7sdb05d792efeef56c@mail.gmail.com> <7A912B335D5443DD87D7F51CEA16CB44@DGBP7M81> <16F5C7077C524378BC611ABB9E91FD86@streamserve.com> In-Reply-To: <16F5C7077C524378BC611ABB9E91FD86@streamserve.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I agree... except to note that Suppress-Script is not a normative field. It is an informative field. Lack of a Suppress-Script does not imply that a script subtag is needed or necessary. It may only imply that specific information is not available for that language. If one knows that the majority of Arabic-language documents are written in the Arabic script and knows nothing about Sudanese Creole Arabic (pqa), one still might not wish to include the 'Arab' subtag in a tag "ar-pqa-SD". Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Kent Karlsson > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 5:01 AM > To: 'LTRU Working Group' > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new > draft-4646bis > > Doug Ewell wrote: > > A primary-extlang combination should take its Suppress-Script, > > if any, from the primary language subtag. > > For zzz-xxx and xxx to be as equivalent as possible > (and I think that is a goal), zzz-xxx must not only > take the supress-script from the xxx subtag (as a > language subtag, it seems unnecessary to duplicate > this information in the record for xxx as extlang). > It must even be so that the the supress-script from > xxx, ***including its absence*** MUST ***override*** > the supress-script from zzz in the zzz-xxx combiniation. > So in zzz-xxx the supress-script from the record for > zzz is NEVER relevant. > > /kent k > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 21:53:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABEAB28C0F2; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:53:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B86E28C0E8 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:53:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.592 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.592 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.483, BAYES_05=-1.11, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iBTH22KTAQ3A for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.99]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E935328C0D6 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12655 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2008 04:54:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (24.8.49.56) by smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.99) with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2008 04:54:10 -0000 Message-ID: <9B60008697E948A19F41F94742884D6D@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:54:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Changes to draft-4645bis resulting from new draft-4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEkgYWdyZWUuLi4gZXhjZXB0IHRvIG5vdGUgdGhhdCBTdXBwcmVzcy1TY3JpcHQgaXMgbm90IGEg bm9ybWF0aXZlIAo+IGZpZWxkLiBJdCBpcyBhbiBpbmZvcm1hdGl2ZSBmaWVsZC4gTGFjayBvZiBh IFN1cHByZXNzLVNjcmlwdCBkb2VzIG5vdCAKPiBpbXBseSB0aGF0IGEgc2NyaXB0IHN1YnRhZyBp cyBuZWVkZWQgb3IgbmVjZXNzYXJ5LiBJdCBtYXkgb25seSBpbXBseSAKPiB0aGF0IHNwZWNpZmlj IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBhdmFpbGFibGUgZm9yIHRoYXQgbGFuZ3VhZ2UuCgpUaGlzIGlz IGFuIGltcG9ydGFudCBwb2ludCwgYW5kIEkgYWRtaXQgSSBoYWQgbG9zdCBzaWdodCBvZiBpdC4K Ci0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAg KiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0 bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3Jn Cmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 23:46:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0DE33A6A24; 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23 Jul 2008 06:47:05 -0000 Message-ID: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:47:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SW4gYWRkaXRpb24gdG8gdGhlIGZldyBwYWlycyBvZiBsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWdzIHRoYXQgaGF2 ZSB0aGUgc2FtZSAKRGVzY3JpcHRpb24sIHN1Y2ggdGhhdCBvbmUgb3IgYm90aCB3aWxsIG5lZWQg dG8gYmUgbW9kaWZpZWQgdG8gcmVtb3ZlIAp0aGUgYW1iaWd1aXR5LCB3ZSBhbHNvIGhhdmUgb3Vy IG9sZCBmcmllbmRzLCB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHR3byAKZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCB0YWdzOgoKVHlw ZTogZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZApUYWc6IGktaGFrCkRlc2NyaXB0aW9uOiBIYWtrYQpBZGRlZDogMTk5 OS0wMS0zMQpEZXByZWNhdGVkOiAyMDAwLTAxLTEwClByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZTogaGFrCgpUeXBl OiBncmFuZGZhdGhlcmVkClRhZzogemgtaGFra2EKRGVzY3JpcHRpb246IEhha2thCkFkZGVkOiAx OTk5LTEyLTE4CkRlcHJlY2F0ZWQ6IDIwMjktMDktMDkKUHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlOiBoYWsKCkl0 IHNlZW1zIG9idmlvdXMgdG8gbWUgdGhhdCwganVzdCBhcyB3ZSBzaG91bGRuJ3QgbmVlZCB0byBj aGFuZ2UgdGhlIApEZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBmaWVsZCAiWWlkZGlzaCIgZm9yIGVpdGhlciAnaGUnIG9y ICdpdycsIGJlY2F1c2Ugb25lIGlzIApkZXByZWNhdGVkLCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgbm90IG5lZWQgdG8g Y2hhbmdlICJIYWtrYSIgZm9yIGVpdGhlciBvZiB0aGVzZSAKdGFncywgYmVjYXVzZSAqYm90aCog YXJlIGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQuICBVbmZvcnR1bmF0ZWx5LCB0aGUgd29yZGluZyBpbiB0aGUgCmN1cnJl bnQgZHJhZnQgZG9lc24ndCBzdXBwb3J0IHRoYXQ6CgoiLi4uIGlmIGEgcGFydGljdWxhciAnRGVz Y3JpcHRpb24nIGZpZWxkIG9jY3VycyBpbiBtdWx0aXBsZSByZWNvcmRzIG9mIGEgCmdpdmVuIHR5 cGUsIHRoZW4gb25lIG9mIHRob3NlIHJlY29yZHMgTVVTVCBiZSBmb3IgYSBzdWJ0YWcgbGlzdGVk IGluIGFsbCAKdGhlIG90aGVyIHJlY29yZHMgYXMgUHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlLiIKCldpdGggdGhl IGFkdmVudCBvZiB0aGUgc3VidGFnICdoYWsnLCB0aGUgdGFnICJ6aC1oYWtrYSIgd2lsbCBubyBs b25nZXIgCmJlIHRoZSBQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWUgZm9yICJpLWhhayIsIHNvIGFzIGl0IHN0YW5k cyBub3csIHdlIHdvdWxkIGhhdmUgCnRvIGNoYW5nZSB0aGUgRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gZmllbGQgZm9y IGF0IGxlYXN0IG9uZSBvZiB0aGUgZGVwcmVjYXRlZCAKZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCB0YWdzLgoKSSdt IHN1cmUgdGhlcmUgd2FzIGEgZ29vZCByZWFzb24gd2h5IHRoZSBydWxlIHdhcyBub3Qgc2ltcGx5 IHN0YXRlZCBhcyAKImRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgc3VidGFncyBhbmQgdGFncyBkb24ndCBjb3VudCwiIGJ1 dCBJIGNhbid0IHRoaW5rIHdoYXQgaXQgCndhcy4gIEknZCBsaWtlIHRvIGRpc2N1c3MgcmV2aXNp bmcgdGhpcyBydWxlLCBzbyB3ZSBkb24ndCBoYXZlIHRvIGRvIApzb21ldGhpbmcgc2lsbHkuCgot LQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICog IFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1s LmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 23 08:17:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1F928C1BF; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:17:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53A428C1BA for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:17:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.988, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4n1N0okxkyV for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3C128C1D5 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:16:55 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,239,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="91748165" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 23 Jul 2008 15:17:35 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6NFHZUu013733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:17:35 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:17:35 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:17:32 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' Thread-Index: Acjsj/Lrog+aq7ZaSjKn6tsUnieeYQARZGjQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org V2UgY2hhbmdlZCB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IGZyb20gNDY0NiB0byB1cGRhdGUgdGhlIFByZWZlcnJlZC1W YWx1ZXMgdG8gcG9pbnQgdG8gdGhlICJsYXN0IGl0ZW0iIGluIHRoZSBjaGFpbiAob25lIG9mIHRo ZXNlIHVzZWQgdG8gcG9pbnQgdG8gdGhlIG90aGVyKS4gSSBjaGFuZ2VkIHRoZSBydWxlcyB0byBz YXk6DQoNCjx0PlRvIGhlbHAgZW5zdXJlIHRoYXQgdXNlcnMgZG8gbm90IGJlY29tZSBjb25mdXNl ZCBhYm91dCB3aGljaCBzdWJ0YWcgdG8gdXNlLCAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIGZpZWxkcyBhc3NpZ25l ZCB0byBhIHJlY29yZCBvZiBhbnkgc3BlY2lmaWMgdHlwZSAoJ2xhbmd1YWdlJywgJ2V4dGxhbmcn LCAnc2NyaXB0JywgYW5kIHNvIG9uKSAgTVVTVCBiZSB1bmlxdWUgd2l0aGluIHRoYXQgZ2l2ZW4g cmVjb3JkIHR5cGUgd2l0aCB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIGV4Y2VwdGlvbjogaWYgYSBwYXJ0aWN1bGFy ICdEZXNjcmlwdGlvbicgZmllbGQgb2NjdXJzIGluIG11bHRpcGxlIHJlY29yZHMgb2YgYSBnaXZl biB0eXBlLCB0aGVuIGF0IG1vc3Qgb25lIG9mIHRoZSByZWNvcmRzIGNhbiBvbWl0IHRoZSAnRGVw cmVjYXRlZCcgZmllbGQgYW5kIGFsbCByZWNvcmRzIHRoYXQgc2hhcmUgYSAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24n IE1VU1QgaGF2ZSB0aGUgc2FtZSAnUHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlJy4gVGhpcyBtZWFucyB0aGF0IHR3 byByZWNvcmRzIG9mIHRoZSBzYW1lIHR5cGUgdGhhdCBzaGFyZSBhICdEZXNjcmlwdGlvbicgYXJl IGFsc28gc2VtYW50aWNhbGx5IGVxdWl2YWxlbnQgYW5kIG5vIG1vcmUgdGhhbiBvbmUgcmVjb3Jk IHdpdGggYSBnaXZlbiAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIGlzIHByZWZlcnJlZCBmb3IgdGhhdCBtZWFuaW5n LjwvdD4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hp dGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4N Ckl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4NCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0K PiBGcm9tOiBsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzpsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5v cmddIE9uDQo+IEJlaGFsZiBPZiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNkYXksIEp1bHkgMjIs IDIwMDggMTE6NDcgUE0NCj4gVG86IExUUlUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cA0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBbTHRy dV0gVHdvIGdyYW5kZmF0aGVyZWQgdGFncyBmb3IgJ0hha2thJw0KPg0KPiBJbiBhZGRpdGlvbiB0 byB0aGUgZmV3IHBhaXJzIG9mIGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3MgdGhhdCBoYXZlIHRoZSBzYW1lDQo+ IERlc2NyaXB0aW9uLCBzdWNoIHRoYXQgb25lIG9yIGJvdGggd2lsbCBuZWVkIHRvIGJlIG1vZGlm aWVkIHRvDQo+IHJlbW92ZQ0KPiB0aGUgYW1iaWd1aXR5LCB3ZSBhbHNvIGhhdmUgb3VyIG9sZCBm cmllbmRzLCB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHR3bw0KPiBncmFuZGZhdGhlcmVkIHRhZ3M6DQo+DQo+IFR5 cGU6IGdyYW5kZmF0aGVyZWQNCj4gVGFnOiBpLWhhaw0KPiBEZXNjcmlwdGlvbjogSGFra2ENCj4g QWRkZWQ6IDE5OTktMDEtMzENCj4gRGVwcmVjYXRlZDogMjAwMC0wMS0xMA0KPiBQcmVmZXJyZWQt VmFsdWU6IGhhaw0KPg0KPiBUeXBlOiBncmFuZGZhdGhlcmVkDQo+IFRhZzogemgtaGFra2ENCj4g RGVzY3JpcHRpb246IEhha2thDQo+IEFkZGVkOiAxOTk5LTEyLTE4DQo+IERlcHJlY2F0ZWQ6IDIw MjktMDktMDkNCj4gUHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlOiBoYWsNCj4NCj4gSXQgc2VlbXMgb2J2aW91cyB0 byBtZSB0aGF0LCBqdXN0IGFzIHdlIHNob3VsZG4ndCBuZWVkIHRvIGNoYW5nZQ0KPiB0aGUNCj4g RGVzY3JpcHRpb24gZmllbGQgIllpZGRpc2giIGZvciBlaXRoZXIgJ2hlJyBvciAnaXcnLCBiZWNh dXNlIG9uZSBpcw0KPiBkZXByZWNhdGVkLCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgbm90IG5lZWQgdG8gY2hhbmdlICJI YWtrYSIgZm9yIGVpdGhlciBvZg0KPiB0aGVzZQ0KPiB0YWdzLCBiZWNhdXNlICpib3RoKiBhcmUg ZGVwcmVjYXRlZC4gIFVuZm9ydHVuYXRlbHksIHRoZSB3b3JkaW5nIGluDQo+IHRoZQ0KPiBjdXJy ZW50IGRyYWZ0IGRvZXNuJ3Qgc3VwcG9ydCB0aGF0Og0KPg0KPiAiLi4uIGlmIGEgcGFydGljdWxh ciAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIGZpZWxkIG9jY3VycyBpbiBtdWx0aXBsZSByZWNvcmRzDQo+IG9mIGEN Cj4gZ2l2ZW4gdHlwZSwgdGhlbiBvbmUgb2YgdGhvc2UgcmVjb3JkcyBNVVNUIGJlIGZvciBhIHN1 YnRhZyBsaXN0ZWQNCj4gaW4gYWxsDQo+IHRoZSBvdGhlciByZWNvcmRzIGFzIFByZWZlcnJlZC1W YWx1ZS4iDQo+DQo+IFdpdGggdGhlIGFkdmVudCBvZiB0aGUgc3VidGFnICdoYWsnLCB0aGUgdGFn ICJ6aC1oYWtrYSIgd2lsbCBubw0KPiBsb25nZXINCj4gYmUgdGhlIFByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZSBm b3IgImktaGFrIiwgc28gYXMgaXQgc3RhbmRzIG5vdywgd2Ugd291bGQNCj4gaGF2ZQ0KPiB0byBj aGFuZ2UgdGhlIERlc2NyaXB0aW9uIGZpZWxkIGZvciBhdCBsZWFzdCBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIGRlcHJl Y2F0ZWQNCj4gZ3JhbmRmYXRoZXJlZCB0YWdzLg0KPg0KPiBJJ20gc3VyZSB0aGVyZSB3YXMgYSBn b29kIHJlYXNvbiB3aHkgdGhlIHJ1bGUgd2FzIG5vdCBzaW1wbHkgc3RhdGVkDQo+IGFzDQo+ICJk ZXByZWNhdGVkIHN1YnRhZ3MgYW5kIHRhZ3MgZG9uJ3QgY291bnQsIiBidXQgSSBjYW4ndCB0aGlu ayB3aGF0DQo+IGl0DQo+IHdhcy4gIEknZCBsaWtlIHRvIGRpc2N1c3MgcmV2aXNpbmcgdGhpcyBy dWxlLCBzbyB3ZSBkb24ndCBoYXZlIHRvDQo+IGRvDQo+IHNvbWV0aGluZyBzaWxseS4NCj4NCj4g LS0NCj4gRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1 ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0DQo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbA0KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVz dHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YNCj4NCj4gX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gTHRydSBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QNCj4gTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 23 23:06:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 755E13A693B; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:06:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D613A691A for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:06:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.359, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id osfh7ZIHh6Iz for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C33423A693B for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:06:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=bgleu+mXTSrQmpx0UN6fL70qsTjd4LszKysG8qvfyHCnDzq6enUd6isI1+wqVq8j; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.167.206.160] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KLtyg-0004YY-IV for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:07:02 -0400 Message-ID: <002301c8ed53$7a0251e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:06:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b35ef65311d2e9bbd91846240ed1904b3d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.167.206.160 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 11:47 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' ... > "... if a particular 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a > given type, then one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all > the other records as Preferred-Value." ... > I'm sure there was a good reason why the rule was not simply stated as > "deprecated subtags and tags don't count," but I can't think what it > was. I'd like to discuss revising this rule, so we don't have to do > something silly. ... I agree that what we have at the moment seems well-intended but problematic. The problem is that records of the grandfathered and redundant types can refer to records of another type. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 24 20:46:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784293A67AE; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:46:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EBF3A6836 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:46:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JrFWsKtf0d5S for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.99]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9EC0A3A68A2 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1955 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2008 03:45:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.99) with ESMTP; 25 Jul 2008 03:45:40 -0000 Message-ID: <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:45:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IDx0PlRvIGhlbHAgZW5zdXJlIHRoYXQgdXNlcnMgZG8gbm90IGJlY29tZSBjb25mdXNlZCBhYm91 dCB3aGljaCBzdWJ0YWcgCj4gdG8gdXNlLCAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIGZpZWxkcyBhc3NpZ25lZCB0 byBhIHJlY29yZCBvZiBhbnkgc3BlY2lmaWMgdHlwZSAKPiAoJ2xhbmd1YWdlJywgJ2V4dGxhbmcn LCAnc2NyaXB0JywgYW5kIHNvIG9uKSAgTVVTVCBiZSB1bmlxdWUgd2l0aGluIAo+IHRoYXQgZ2l2 ZW4gcmVjb3JkIHR5cGUgd2l0aCB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIGV4Y2VwdGlvbjogaWYgYSBwYXJ0aWN1 bGFyIAo+ICdEZXNjcmlwdGlvbicgZmllbGQgb2NjdXJzIGluIG11bHRpcGxlIHJlY29yZHMgb2Yg YSBnaXZlbiB0eXBlLCB0aGVuIAo+IGF0IG1vc3Qgb25lIG9mIHRoZSByZWNvcmRzIGNhbiBvbWl0 IHRoZSAnRGVwcmVjYXRlZCcgZmllbGQgYW5kIGFsbCAKPiByZWNvcmRzIHRoYXQgc2hhcmUgYSAn RGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIE1VU1QgaGF2ZSB0aGUgc2FtZSAKPiAnUHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlJy4gVGhp cyBtZWFucyB0aGF0IHR3byByZWNvcmRzIG9mIHRoZSBzYW1lIHR5cGUgdGhhdCAKPiBzaGFyZSBh ICdEZXNjcmlwdGlvbicgYXJlIGFsc28gc2VtYW50aWNhbGx5IGVxdWl2YWxlbnQgYW5kIG5vIG1v cmUgCj4gdGhhbiBvbmUgcmVjb3JkIHdpdGggYSBnaXZlbiAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIGlzIHByZWZl cnJlZCBmb3IgdGhhdCAKPiBtZWFuaW5nLjwvdD4KCldlJ3JlIGFsbW9zdCB0aGVyZS4gIFRoaXMg bmVlZHMgdG8gYmU6ICAiLi4uIGFuZCBhbGwgZGVwcmVjYXRlZCByZWNvcmRzIAp0aGF0IHNoYXJl IGEgJ0Rlc2NyaXB0aW9uJyBNVVNUIGhhdmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgJ1ByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZScuIiAg T3IgCm1heWJlLCAiLi4uIGFuZCBhbGwgcmVjb3JkcyB0aGF0IHNoYXJlIGEgJ0Rlc2NyaXB0aW9u JyBNVVNUIGhhdmUgdGhlIApzYW1lICdQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWUnLCBvciBub25lIGF0IGFsbC4i ICBUaGUgd2F5IGl0IHJlYWRzIG5vdywgJ2hlJyBhbmQgCidpdycgd291bGQgaGF2ZSB0byBoYXZl IGRpZmZlcmVudCBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbnMgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGV5IGRvIG5vdCBoYXZlIAp0aGUgc2Ft ZSBQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWUgKHNpbmNlICdoZScgaGFzIG5vbmUpLgoKV2Ugd2FudCBkaWZmZXJl bnQgZGVzY3JpcHRpb25zIHdoZW4gdGhlIHNlbWFudGljIGlzIGRpZmZlcmVudC4gIEknbSAKYXNz dW1pbmcgaGVyZSB0aGF0IHVubGVzcyB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIGNsZWFyIHdpdGhkcmF3YWwvcmVwbGFj ZW1lbnQgY2hhaW4gCmZyb20gdGhlIElTTyBNQSBvciBSQSwgdGhlbiB0aGUgc2VtYW50aWMgaXMg ZGlmZmVyZW50LiAgV2hlbiBJU08gNjM5LTMgCmdpdmVzIHVzIEJvcm5hIChid28sIEV0aGlvcGlh LCBhbHNvIGNhbGxlZCBCb3JvKSBhbmQgQm9ybmEgKGJ4eCwgCkRlbW9jcmF0aWMgUmVwdWJsaWMg b2YgQ29uZ28pLCB0aGV5IGFyZSBwcmVzdW1lZCBkaWZmZXJlbnQuICBIb3BlZnVsbHkgCndlIHdp bGwgYmUgYWJsZSB0byBjYXB0dXJlIHRoYXQgaW50ZW50IGluIG91ciBydWxlLgoKQWN0dWFsbHks IHdlIGhhdmUgYW5vdGhlciBleGNlcHRpb24gdG8gdGhlIGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQvcHJlZmVycmVkIHJ1 bGUuIApBbGwgZm91ciBvZiB0aGUgcmVnaW9uIHN1YnRhZyByZWNvcmRzIHdpdGggRGVzY3JpcHRp b24gZmllbGQgIlBSSVZBVEUgClVTRSIgKEFBLCBRTS4uUVosIFhBLi5YWiwgWlopIG5lZWQgdG8g YmUgZXhlbXB0IGZyb20gdGhlIAp1bmlxdWUtZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gcnVsZS4gIEFnYWluLCB0aGlz IGlzIGJlY2F1c2UgdGhlIHNlbWFudGljIGlzIHRoZSAKc2FtZSBmb3IgYWxsIGZvdXIuCgotLQpE b3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVU TiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNo YXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 24 21:23:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1427D3A67BD; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:23:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E873A67BD for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:23:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TBTw7caFFmaK for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61E43A65A6 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KMEpW-00081Z-Bc; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:22:58 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:22:58 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080725042258.GE30818@mercury.ccil.org> References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > Actually, we have another exception to the deprecated/preferred rule. > All four of the region subtag records with Description field "PRIVATE > USE" (AA, QM..QZ, XA..XZ, ZZ) need to be exempt from the > unique-description rule. Again, this is because the semantic is the > same for all four. +1. Perhaps the groups should be unpacked now? An extra 38 records is nothing compared to the 6000+ we are adding. -- Deshil Holles eamus. Deshil Holles eamus. Deshil Holles eamus. Send us, bright one, light one, Horhorn, quickening, and wombfruit. (3x) Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! Hoopsa, boyaboy, hoopsa! --Joyce, Ulysses, "Oxen of the Sun" cowan@ccil.org _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 24 21:33:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA563A69CE; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:33:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0143A69CE for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:33:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 937DRSn6itQ3 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DB0B43A69AF for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3457 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2008 04:33:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.183) with ESMTP; 25 Jul 2008 04:33:27 -0000 Message-ID: <247C59E69524411590A94B402D08560C@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> <20080725042258.GE30818@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:33:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sm9obiBDb3dhbiA8Y293YW4gYXQgY2NpbCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3cm90ZToKCj4gUGVyaGFwcyB0aGUg Z3JvdXBzIHNob3VsZCBiZSB1bnBhY2tlZCBub3c/ICBBbiBleHRyYSAzOCByZWNvcmRzIGlzIAo+ IG5vdGhpbmcgY29tcGFyZWQgdG8gdGhlIDYwMDArIHdlIGFyZSBhZGRpbmcuCgpJIHdvdWxkbid0 IG9iamVjdCwgaW5hc211Y2ggYXMgaXQgd291bGQgc2ltcGxpZnkgTFNSIHBhcnNpbmcsIGJ1dCB0 aGF0IAp3YXNuJ3QgcXVpdGUgbXkgcG9pbnQuICBXaGV0aGVyIHdlIGhhdmUgZm91ciBQUklWQVRF IFVTRSogcmVjb3JkcyBvciA0MiwgCnRoZXkgc2hvdWxkIHN0aWxsIGhhdmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgRGVz Y3JpcHRpb24gZmllbGQgc2luY2UgdGhleSBoYXZlIHRoZSAKc2FtZSBzZW1hbnRpYy4gIChOb25l IG9mIHRoaXMgYXJ0aWZpY2lhbCAiUFJJVkFURSBVU0UtQUEiIGp1bmsuKQoKKkkgbmV2ZXIgdW5k ZXJzdG9vZCB3aHkgdGhpcyBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIERlc2NyaXB0aW9uIGZpZWxkIGhhZCB0byBiZSBp biAKQUxMIENBUFMsIGVpdGhlci4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFk bywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0 dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDov L3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 24 21:36:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0013A6A11; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:36:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6D63A6A75 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:36:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z4G-NegE-od2 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C761A3A68D2 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KMF2X-0000ky-D8; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:36:25 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:36:25 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080725043625.GF30818@mercury.ccil.org> References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> <20080725042258.GE30818@mercury.ccil.org> <247C59E69524411590A94B402D08560C@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <247C59E69524411590A94B402D08560C@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > John Cowan wrote: > > >Perhaps the groups should be unpacked now? An extra 38 records is > >nothing compared to the 6000+ we are adding. > > I wouldn't object, inasmuch as it would simplify LSR parsing, but that > wasn't quite my point. Whether we have four PRIVATE USE* records or 42, > they should still have the same Description field since they have the > same semantic. (None of this artificial "PRIVATE USE-AA" junk.) > > *I never understood why this particular Description field had to be in > ALL CAPS, either. You're the editor of 4645bis. Fix 'em. -- He played King Lear as though John Cowan someone had played the ace. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Eugene Field _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 24 21:50:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F09B3A69B4; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:50:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB0D3A67AE for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:50:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1jtgszfbgopj for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout09.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout09-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A9AE3A684D for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20993 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2008 04:49:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout09-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.17) with ESMTP; 25 Jul 2008 04:49:54 -0000 Message-ID: <149CEF020BBE4CCB8348A215EFAC4D98@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> <20080725042258.GE30818@mercury.ccil.org> <247C59E69524411590A94B402D08560C@DGBP7M81> <20080725043625.GF30818@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:49:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:29:38 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81><20080725042258.GE30818@mercury.ccil.org><247C59E69524411590A94B402D08560C@DGBP7M81><20080725043625.GF30818@mercury.ccil.org> <149CEF020BBE4CCB8348A215EFAC4D98@DGBP7M81> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:29:31 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 In-Reply-To: <149CEF020BBE4CCB8348A215EFAC4D98@DGBP7M81> Thread-Index: AcjuEejwZc5ptzrmT3CIytXXuc14zwAHW+0A X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KMIgD-0002IQ-9K. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1KMIgD-0002IQ-9K a104a83315ab9b9c8802cc2c9069f980 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Fine: unless I hear otherwise in the next 72 hours (Monday, June 28 at > 5:00 UTC), I will change the four "PRIVATE USE" Descriptions to the > calmer "Private Use". I don't like the "titlecase" here, there is no name. Describing these as "private use" (all lowercase) will be fine. > Does anyone else support unpacking the subtag records that represent > ranges? Bear in mind that in addition to the regions, we would also get > 520 language subtags out of "qaa..qtz" and 50 script subtags out of > "Qaaa..Qabx". No objection. I would also not object (understatement...) if click letters were spelled with the actual click letters in Unicode, rather than keeping the ASCII fallbacks (in e.g. Description: =/Kx'au//'ein, and a few others). (I've pointed this out a few times before.) /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 25 08:13:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F5B3A685C; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:13:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF523A6862 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:13:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kDALHA8kdCMY for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F543A685C for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:13:41 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,253,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="80875307" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 25 Jul 2008 15:13:36 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6PFDWSE018487 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:13:33 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:13:33 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:13:30 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' Thread-Index: AcjuEelzb+r0AQu6Qq6pTKeWWakVAQAVwg9Q Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0149890955@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> <20080725042258.GE30818@mercury.ccil.org> <247C59E69524411590A94B402D08560C@DGBP7M81> <20080725043625.GF30818@mercury.ccil.org> <149CEF020BBE4CCB8348A215EFAC4D98@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <149CEF020BBE4CCB8348A215EFAC4D98@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:42:52 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:42:50 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' Thread-Index: AcjuCP2Fa2JBurhWSqOxfBTW1lopWwAe+SCQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0149890CAE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Pg0KPiBXZSdyZSBhbG1vc3QgdGhlcmUuICBUaGlzIG5lZWRzIHRvIGJlOiAgIi4uLiBhbmQgYWxs IGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQNCj4gcmVjb3Jkcw0KPiB0aGF0IHNoYXJlIGEgJ0Rlc2NyaXB0aW9uJyBNVVNU IGhhdmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgJ1ByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZScuIg0KPiBPcg0KPiBtYXliZSwgIi4uLiBh bmQgYWxsIHJlY29yZHMgdGhhdCBzaGFyZSBhICdEZXNjcmlwdGlvbicgTVVTVCBoYXZlDQo+IHRo ZQ0KPiBzYW1lICdQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWUnLCBvciBub25lIGF0IGFsbC4iICBUaGUgd2F5IGl0 IHJlYWRzIG5vdywNCj4gJ2hlJyBhbmQNCj4gJ2l3JyB3b3VsZCBoYXZlIHRvIGhhdmUgZGlmZmVy ZW50IGRlc2NyaXB0aW9ucyBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZXkgZG8gbm90DQo+IGhhdmUNCj4gdGhlIHNhbWUg UHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlIChzaW5jZSAnaGUnIGhhcyBub25lKS4NCg0KDQoibm9uZSBhdCBhbGwi IGRvZXNuJ3Qgd29yayBiZWNhdXNlIHRoYXQgd291bGQgYWxsb3cgYW55IHR3byBub24tZGVwcmVj YXRlZCAobm9uLWlkZW50aWNhbCkgaXRlbXMgdG8gc2hhcmUgYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbi4NCg0KImFs 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cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 26 11:21:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C51FC3A6405; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:21:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7765D28C18A for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:21:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pzSZCdjOnuVp for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.38]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4AB743A6405 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19073 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2008 18:21:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.38) with ESMTP; 26 Jul 2008 18:21:33 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0149890CAE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:21:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24gPGFkZGlzb24gYXQgYW1hem9uIGRvdCBjb20+IHdyb3RlOgoKPj4g V2UncmUgYWxtb3N0IHRoZXJlLiAgVGhpcyBuZWVkcyB0byBiZTogICIuLi4gYW5kIGFsbCBkZXBy ZWNhdGVkIAo+PiByZWNvcmRzIHRoYXQgc2hhcmUgYSAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIE1VU1QgaGF2ZSB0 aGUgc2FtZSAKPj4gJ1ByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZScuIiBPciBtYXliZSwgIi4uLiBhbmQgYWxsIHJl Y29yZHMgdGhhdCBzaGFyZSBhIAo+PiAnRGVzY3JpcHRpb24nIE1VU1QgaGF2ZSB0aGUgc2FtZSAn UHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlJywgb3Igbm9uZSBhdCBhbGwuIiAKPj4gVGhlIHdheSBpdCByZWFkcyBu b3csICdoZScgYW5kICdpdycgd291bGQgaGF2ZSB0byBoYXZlIGRpZmZlcmVudCAKPj4gZGVzY3Jp cHRpb25zIGJlY2F1c2UgdGhleSBkbyBub3QgaGF2ZSB0aGUgc2FtZSBQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWUg KHNpbmNlIAo+PiAnaGUnIGhhcyBub25lKS4KPgo+ICJub25lIGF0IGFsbCIgZG9lc24ndCB3b3Jr 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KiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0 bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3Jn Cmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 26 11:35:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37FF28C1C2; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:35:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD9A28C1AC for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:35:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.273 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: 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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org S2VudCBLYXJsc3NvbiA8a2VudCBkb3Qga2FybHNzb24xNCBhdCBjb21oZW0gZG90IHNlPiB3cm90 ZToKCj4+IEZpbmU6IHVubGVzcyBJIGhlYXIgb3RoZXJ3aXNlIGluIHRoZSBuZXh0IDcyIGhvdXJz IChNb25kYXksIEp1bmUgMjggCj4+IGF0IDU6MDAgVVRDKSwgSSB3aWxsIGNoYW5nZSB0aGUgZm91 ciAiUFJJVkFURSBVU0UiIERlc2NyaXB0aW9ucyB0byAKPj4gdGhlIGNhbG1lciAiUHJpdmF0ZSBV c2UiLgo+Cj4gSSBkb24ndCBsaWtlIHRoZSAidGl0bGVjYXNlIiBoZXJlLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBu YW1lLiBEZXNjcmliaW5nIHRoZXNlIAo+IGFzICJwcml2YXRlIHVzZSIgKGFsbCBsb3dlcmNhc2Up IHdpbGwgYmUgZmluZS4KCkFjdHVhbGx5LCBzZW50ZW5jZSBjYXNlICgiUHJpdmF0ZSB1c2UiKSB3 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X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1KMpHh-0004jW-3R b625b8e701618929684e23498102298e Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IApEb3VnIEV3ZWxsIHdyb3RlOgo+ID4gSSB3b3VsZCBhbHNvIG5vdCBvYmplY3QgKHVuZGVyc3Rh dGVtZW50Li4uKSBpZiBjbGljayBsZXR0ZXJzIHdlcmUgCj4gPiBzcGVsbGVkIHdpdGggdGhlIGFj dHVhbCBjbGljayBsZXR0ZXJzIGluIFVuaWNvZGUsIHJhdGhlciB0aGFuIGtlZXBpbmcgCj4gPiB0 aGUgQVNDSUkgZmFsbGJhY2tzIChpbiBlLmcuIERlc2NyaXB0aW9uOiA9L0t4J2F1Ly8nZWluLCBh bmQgYSBmZXcgCj4gPiBvdGhlcnMpLiAoSSd2ZSBwb2ludGVkIHRoaXMgb3V0IGEgZmV3IHRpbWVz IGJlZm9yZS4pCj4gCj4gSSBrbm93IHlvdSBoYXZlLCBhbmQgSSdtIHN1cmUgeW91IG9yIHNvbWVv bmUgZWxzZSBoYXMgc3VwcGxpZWQgYSB0YWJsZSAKPiB0aGF0IG1hcHMgdGhlIEFTQ0lJIGZhbGxi YWNrcyB0byB0aGUgcmVhbCBjbGljayBsZXR0ZXJzICh0aG91Z2ggSSBkb24ndCAKPiBoYXZlIHN1 Y2ggYSB0YWJsZSBhdCBoYW5kKS4KCkkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIHRhYmxlIHdvdWxkIGJlOgoKICAgICAg ICAvICAtPiDHgCAgICAwMUMwO0xBVElOIExFVFRFUiBERU5UQUwgQ0xJQ0s7TG87MDtMOzs7OztO O0xBVElOIExFVFRFUiBQSVBFOzs7OwogICAgICAgIC8vIC0+IMeBICAgIDAxQzE7TEFUSU4gTEVU VEVSIExBVEVSQUwgQ0xJQ0s7TG87MDtMOzs7OztOO0xBVElOIExFVFRFUiBET1VCTEUgUElQRTs7 OzsKICAgICAgICA9LyAtPiDHgiAgICAwMUMyO0xBVElOIExFVFRFUiBBTFZFT0xBUiBDTElDSztM bzswO0w7Ozs7O047TEFUSU4gTEVUVEVSIFBJUEUgRE9VQkxFIEJBUjs7OzsKICAgICAgICAhICAt PiDHgyAgICAwMUMzO0xBVElOIExFVFRFUiBSRVRST0ZMRVggQ0xJQ0s7TG87MDtMOzs7OztOO0xB VElOIExFVFRFUiBFWENMQU1BVElPTiBNQVJLOzs7OwoKQW5kIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgZGVzY3Jp cHRpb25zIHNlZW0gdG8gY29udGFpbiBjbGljayBsZXR0ZXJzIHdyaXR0ZW4gYXMgQVNDSUkgZmFs bGJhY2tzOgoKb3VuICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSAgICAgICAgTCAgICAgICAgIU8h dW5nCm5tbiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEkgICAgICAgIEwgICAgICAgICFYw7PDtQpo bmggICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBJICAgICAgICBMICAgICAgICAvL0FuaQpnbmsgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBJICAgICAgICBMICAgICAgICAvL0dhbmEKeGVnICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSAgICAgICAgRSAgICAgICAgLy9YZWd3aQpnd2ogICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICBJICAgICAgICBMICAgICAgICAvR3dpCnhhbSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgIEkgICAgICAgIEUgICAgICAgIC9YYW0KaHVjICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSAg ICAgICAgTCAgICAgICAgPS9IdWEKYXVlICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSAgICAgICAg TCAgICAgICAgPS9LeCdhdS8vJ2VpbgpoZ20gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBJICAgICAg ICBMICAgICAgICBIYWkvL29tCmt0eiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEkgICAgICAgIEwg ICAgICAgIEp1Lydob2FuCm5naCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEkgICAgICAgIEwgICAK CgoJCS9rZW50IGsKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 27 12:12:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F05B3A6986; 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27 Jul 2008 19:12:16 -0000 Message-ID: <7C6A56EF764640A4A0E769C7A05A60D5@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:12:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: [Ltru] Click letters (was: Re: Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka') X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org S2VudCBLYXJsc3NvbiA8a2VudCBkb3Qga2FybHNzb24xNCBhdCBjb21oZW0gZG90IHNlPiB3cm90 ZToKCj4gQW5kIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgZGVzY3JpcHRpb25zIHNlZW0gdG8gY29udGFpbiBjbGlj ayBsZXR0ZXJzIHdyaXR0ZW4gCj4gYXMgQVNDSUkgZmFsbGJhY2tzOgo+Cj4gb3VuICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSAgICAgICAgTCAgICAgICAgIU8hdW5nCj4gbm1uICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgSSAgICAgICAgTCAgICAgICAgIVg/Pwo+IGhuaCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgIEkgICAgICAgIEwgICAgICAgIC8vQW5pCj4gZ25rICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgSSAgICAgICAgTCAgICAgICAgLy9HYW5hCj4geGVnICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg SSAgICAgICAgRSAgICAgICAgLy9YZWd3aQo+IGd3aiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEkg ICAgICAgIEwgICAgICAgIC9Hd2kKPiB4YW0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBJICAgICAg ICBFICAgICAgICAvWGFtCj4gaHVjICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSAgICAgICAgTCAg ICAgICAgPS9IdWEKPiBhdWUgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBJICAgICAgICBMICAgICAg ICA9L0t4J2F1Ly8nZWluCj4gaGdtICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSAgICAgICAgTCAg ICAgICAgSGFpLy9vbQo+IGt0eiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEkgICAgICAgIEwgICAg ICAgIEp1Lydob2FuCj4gbmdoICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSAgICAgICAgTAoKKE5v dGU6IG5ndSBpcyAiTi91Ii4pCgpJIHNlYXJjaGVkIHRocm91Z2ggYWxsIHRoZSBEZXNjcmlwdGlv biBmaWVsZHMgd2l0aCBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzIG90aGVyIHRoYW4gCmxldHRlcnMsIHNwYWNlcywgZG90 cywgZXRjLiBhbmQgSSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IHRoaXMgc2VlbXMgdG8gYmUgdGhlIApjb21wbGV0ZSBj dXJyZW50IGxpc3QsIHRob3VnaCBJIGFtIG5vIGV4cGVydCBvbiBjbGljayBsZXR0ZXJzLgoKSSB3 b24ndCBvcHBvc2UgbWFraW5nIHRoZXNlIGNoYW5nZXMgaWYgdGhlcmUgaXMgcm91Z2ggV0cgY29u c2Vuc3VzIHRvIAptYWtlIHRoZW0sIGJ1dCBJIHdvbid0IGRvIGl0IHVuaWxhdGVyYWxseS4gIEkn ZCBsaWtlIHRvIGFzayB0aGUgCmNvLWNoYWlycyB0byBtYWtlIGEganVkZ21lbnQgYXMgdG8gcm91 Z2ggY29uc2Vuc3VzIGluIGEgc3VpdGFibGUgdGltZSAKZnJhbWUuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAq ICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDov L3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUt Y2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ll dGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 27 18:08:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649873A6911; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:08:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC49F3A692E for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:08:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.143 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.143 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, DATE_IN_PAST_24_48=1.219, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4KdaA7Zx+dqq for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE293A685D for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6S18To9003941 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:08:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2b21_b07f20ec_5c41_11dd_82a4_0014221fa3c9; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:08:29 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:58474) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:02:18 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080726123239.05c715e0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:40:31 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <149CEF020BBE4CCB8348A215EFAC4D98@DGBP7M81> References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> <20080725042258.GE30818@mercury.ccil.org> <247C59E69524411590A94B402D08560C@DGBP7M81> <20080725043625.GF30818@mercury.ccil.org> <149CEF020BBE4CCB8348A215EFAC4D98@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I'm fine with "Private Use" or "private use", much better than "PRIVATE USE". On the other hand, I don't think it's a good idea to make our registry even longer by expanding these. It would expand our registry by about 10%. Regards, Martin. At 13:49 08/07/25, Doug Ewell wrote: >John Cowan wrote: >>> *I never understood why this particular Description field had to be >>> in ALL CAPS, either. >> >> You're the editor of 4645bis. Fix 'em. > >I'm a democratic editor; I do the bidding of the WG. > >Fine: unless I hear otherwise in the next 72 hours (Monday, June 28 at >5:00 UTC), I will change the four "PRIVATE USE" Descriptions to the >calmer "Private Use". > >Does anyone else support unpacking the subtag records that represent >ranges? Bear in mind that in addition to the regions, we would also get >520 language subtags out of "qaa..qtz" and 50 script subtags out of >"Qaaa..Qabx". #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 27 20:16:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1543A6813; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:16:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB293A67D6 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:16:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.554 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yI1J12dlebix for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.38]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E9AE3A6813 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14760 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2008 03:16:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.38) with ESMTP; 28 Jul 2008 03:16:03 -0000 Message-ID: <99226202E26F4AD0B62AB237EBA17E1F@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:16:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Click letters (was: Re: Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka') X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSBidXJibGVkOgoKPj4gbmdoICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgSSAgICAgICAgTAo+Cj4g KE5vdGU6IG5ndSBpcyAiTi91Ii4pCgpuZ2gsIHRoZSBzdWJ0YWcgS2VudCBjaXRlZCwgaXMgIk4v dSIuCgpuZ3UsIHdoaWNoIGhhcyBub3RoaW5nIHRvIGRvIHdpdGggdGhpcywgaXMgIkd1ZXJyZXJv IE5haHVhdGwiLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICog IFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEu aWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVz dHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0 cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 27 20:45:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3914A3A69F6; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 517BA3A67AF for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:45:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, MANGLED_EMAIL=2.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id is9e6WI3BjPH for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B373A696C for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KNJfY-0007I3-Hw; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:45:08 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:45:08 -0400 To: Martin Duerst Message-ID: <20080728034508.GP8260@mercury.ccil.org> References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> <20080725042258.GE30818@mercury.ccil.org> <247C59E69524411590A94B402D08560C@DGBP7M81> <20080725043625.GF30818@mercury.ccil.org> <149CEF020BBE4CCB8348A215EFAC4D98@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20080726123239.05c715e0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080726123239.05c715e0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst scripsit: > I'm fine with "Private Use" or "private use", much better than > "PRIVATE USE". On the other hand, I don't think it's a good idea > to make our registry even longer by expanding these. It would expand > our registry by about 10%. I don't think a 10% expansion is a bad trade-off, considering how big the registry is going to get, for simpler parsing. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Heckler: "Go on, Al, tell 'em all you know. It won't take long." Al Smith: "I'll tell 'em all we *both* know. It won't take any longer." _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 00:20:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6FBF3A6910; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:20:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60653A6989 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:20:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.324 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.324 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_EMAIL=2.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WzFx81fxa6Lw for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602633A686E for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 37so4661617wra.17 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:20:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=jT4sVIihoZKW2DH2ntx6gexBBJUZ1Yq7SMZHpVRQmiU=; b=XOBxHNoHjYbWBo5AJl7ZgkvFFpzCB8VxQd7Tc2daLEzpmAHTso0XNsogK1ID/Bu+lG 6giKjWFfqNvDQvgU917peoSWAuLZRoXeriS/Eig0djEhCVlTDgeJb4FgqTdGNkMjAxT1 FBroMav1yyMeJ1pNFQE5rUaKuYrfQz6JmOke8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=jRuBJV1EkIxZzHpuYVAYvaN7SLplgaFxZcVVf8rIbk2007S+QpWw4o5/4FVlGV4rEp /7IGiQVtqz4sz7vZwl196wpQJJNNyMz8BcQ7GHYMJprbMJPm7f90n0vw8VisYifUIK1f e8zVpiO0n48I05/biyl7PdV+Hgxw2zX1q4D+Y= Received: by 10.90.71.16 with SMTP id t16mr2120394aga.47.1217229607669; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.149.10 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20807280020t60985eb1gc73b91742efb3819@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:20:07 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20080728034508.GP8260@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> <20080725042258.GE30818@mercury.ccil.org> <247C59E69524411590A94B402D08560C@DGBP7M81> <20080725043625.GF30818@mercury.ccil.org> <149CEF020BBE4CCB8348A215EFAC4D98@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20080726123239.05c715e0@localhost> <20080728034508.GP8260@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 331eb83a365bc0da Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2076076092==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2076076092== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13979_11578735.1217229607702" ------=_Part_13979_11578735.1217229607702 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm a bit split on this. I'm generally in favor of simpler parsing, but the effort needed to parse the ranges used for Private Use is extremely small -- only a couple of (straightforward) lines of code. So I could live with it either way. Mark On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 8:45 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Martin Duerst scripsit: > > I'm fine with "Private Use" or "private use", much better than > > "PRIVATE USE". On the other hand, I don't think it's a good idea > > to make our registry even longer by expanding these. It would expand > > our registry by about 10%. > > I don't think a 10% expansion is a bad trade-off, considering how > big the registry is going to get, for simpler parsing. > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan > Heckler: "Go on, Al, tell 'em all you know. It won't take long." > Al Smith: "I'll tell 'em all we *both* know. It won't take any longer." > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_13979_11578735.1217229607702 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
I'm a bit split on this. I'm generally in favor of simpler parsing, but the effort needed to parse the ranges used for Private Use is extremely small -- only a couple of (straightforward) lines of code.

So I could live with it either way.

Mark


On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 8:45 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Martin Duerst scripsit:
> I'm fine with "Private Use" or "private use", much better than
> "PRIVATE USE". On the other hand, I don't think it's a good idea
> to make our registry even longer by expanding these. It would expand
> our registry by about 10%.

I don't think a 10% expansion is a bad trade-off, considering how
big the registry is going to get, for simpler parsing.

--
John Cowan    cowan@ccil.org    http://ccil.org/~cowan
Heckler: "Go on, Al, tell 'em all you know.  It won't take long."
Al Smith: "I'll tell 'em all we *both* know.  It won't take any longer."
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_13979_11578735.1217229607702-- --===============2076076092== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2076076092==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 21:54:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DA03A69ED; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:54:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0DA3A69ED for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:54:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.966, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, SARE_SUB_OBFU_OTHER=0.135, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w2BBoK6KyFI6 for ; 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h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.26.110] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KNt9b-0007vr-6m for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:38:31 -0400 Message-ID: <005e01c8f1a1$fda77d20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <257D6D3DEBA4409687C22CAFE12455F4@DGBP7M81> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:39:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888a63b7957ab9b23b3146c408f7342b8dcd3f8c898a5511eb1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.26.110 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Expanding the xx..yy ranges (was: Re: Two grandfathered tagsfor 'Hakka') X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 9:54 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Expanding the xx..yy ranges (was: Re: Two grandfathered tagsfor 'Hakka') ... > 1. whether to modify the Description fields of ISO 639-3 language names > that contain ASCII approximations of click letters, replacing them with > real Unicode click letters ... I think ltru is the wrong place to be making such a change - this would be more properly discussed on ietf-languages@iana.org, since it pertains to the content of specific registration records, rather than being a general question of policy or format. Furthermore, if there is support for including the "real" Unicode clicks, I believe these should be in addition to, rather than as replacements for, the representations we got from ISO 639-3. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 17:56:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47EE13A6B54; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:56:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8FD3A6B54 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:56:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.618 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.618 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.845, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, SARE_SUB_OBFU_OTHER=0.135, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W5BOV4f8yL8y for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 49DED3A6B04 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1317 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2008 00:56:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.35) with ESMTP; 30 Jul 2008 00:56:53 -0000 Message-ID: <8E11E72E718147B6922DC1A23A9EE809@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:56:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Expanding the xx..yy ranges (was: Re: Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka') X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+PiAxLiB3aGV0aGVyIHRvIG1vZGlmeSB0aGUgRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gZmll bGRzIG9mIElTTyA2MzktMyBsYW5ndWFnZSAKPj4gbmFtZXMgdGhhdCBjb250YWluIEFTQ0lJIGFw cHJveGltYXRpb25zIG9mIGNsaWNrIGxldHRlcnMsIHJlcGxhY2luZyAKPj4gdGhlbSB3aXRoIHJl YWwgVW5pY29kZSBjbGljayBsZXR0ZXJzCj4gLi4uCj4KPiBJIHRoaW5rIGx0cnUgaXMgdGhlIHdy b25nIHBsYWNlIHRvIGJlIG1ha2luZyBzdWNoIGEgY2hhbmdlIC0gdGhpcyAKPiB3b3VsZCBiZSBt b3JlIHByb3Blcmx5IGRpc2N1c3NlZCBvbiBpZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlc0BpYW5hLm9yZywgc2luY2Ug aXQgCj4gcGVydGFpbnMgdG8gdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgb2Ygc3BlY2lmaWMgcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uIHJl Y29yZHMsIHJhdGhlciB0aGFuIAo+IGJlaW5nIGEgZ2VuZXJhbCBxdWVzdGlvbiBvZiBwb2xpY3kg b3IgZm9ybWF0LgoKWW91IGNvcnJlY3QgbWUgb24gdGhpcyBwb2ludCBmcm9tIHRpbWUgdG8gdGlt ZS4gIEhlcmUncyB3aHkgSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIAppc3N1ZSBkb2VzIGJlbG9uZyBoZXJlOgoKMS4g V2UgaGF2ZSBhbiBleGlzdGluZyBwb2xpY3kgb2YgdHJlYXRpbmcgSVNPLWRlcml2ZWQgRGVzY3Jp cHRpb24gZmllbGRzIAphcyBzYWNyb3NhbmN0LCBmb3IgdHJhY2VhYmlsaXR5IHB1cnBvc2VzLgoK Mi4gV2UgKExUUlUpIGFyZSBwbGFubmluZyB0byBtb2RpZnkgdGhpcyBwb2xpY3kgdG8gYWxsb3cg ZGlzYW1iaWd1YXRpb24gCm9mIGR1cGxpY2F0ZSBuYW1lcyAod2hpY2ggSSB0aGluayBpcyBhIGdy ZWF0IGlkZWEpLiAgVGhpcyB3b3VsZCBhcHBseSB0byAKbmV3IHJlY29yZHMgYWRkZWQgYXMgcGFy dCBvZiB0aGUgTFRSVSAyLjAgZWZmb3J0IChkZXJpdmVkIGZyb20gSVNPIAo2MzktMyksIHNpbmNl IG5vIHN1Y2ggZHVwbGljYXRlcyBleGlzdCBpbiB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBSZWdpc3RyeS4gClRoZXJl Zm9yZSwgdGhpcyBpcyBnZW5lcmFsbHkgYWNrbm93bGVkZ2VkIHRvIGJlIGFuIExUUlUgZnVuY3Rp b24uCgozLiBUaGUgcHJlc2VudCBwcm9wb3NhbCAoZHVlIHRvIEtlbnQpIGlzIHRvIGFsbG93IERl c2NyaXB0aW9uIGZpZWxkcyAKdGhhdCBpbmNsdWRlIEFTQ0lJIGFwcHJveGltYXRpb25zIG9mIGNs aWNrIGxldHRlcnMgdG8gYmUgY2hhbmdlZCB0byB1c2UgCnRoZSByZWFsIGNsaWNrIGxldHRlcnMg aW5zdGVhZC4gIFRoaXMgYWxzbyBhcHBsaWVzIG9ubHkgdG8gdGhlIG5ldyBMVFJVIAoyLjAgcmVj b3Jkcywgc2luY2UgdGhlIGNsaWNrIGxldHRlcnMgZXhpc3Qgb25seSBpbiBJU08gNjM5LTMgY29k ZSAKZWxlbWVudHMgKG5vdCBpbiBvdGhlciBwYXJ0cyBvZiBJU08gNjM5KSBhbmQgc2luY2Ugbm8g b3RoZXIgQVNDSUktb25seSAKRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gZmllbGRzIGhhdmUgZXZlciBiZWVuIHByb3Bv c2VkIHRvIGJlIGNoYW5nZWQgdG8gdXNlIApub24tQVNDSUkuICBUaGlzIHRvbyBpcyBhIG1hdHRl ciBvZiBwb2xpY3ksIGFuZCB0aGVyZWZvcmUgKEkgY29udGVuZCkgCmFsc28gYW4gTFRSVSBmdW5j dGlvbi4KCldlIGNhbiBkZWZlciBpdCB0byBpZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyBpZiB5b3UgbGlrZSwgYnV0 IEkgcHJlZGljdCB0aGF0IGl0IAp3aWxsIGJlIGhhbmRsZWQgdGhlcmUgaW4gYW4gaW5jb25zaXN0 ZW50LCBhZC1ob2MsIG9uZS1vZmYgbWFubmVyLCBhcyAKYWx3YXlzIHdoZW4gaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFn ZXMgaXMgYXNrZWQgdG8gY3JlYXRlIGdlbmVyYWwgZ3VpZGVsaW5lcyBsZWZ0IApvdXQgb2YgdGhl IFJGQy4KCj4gRnVydGhlcm1vcmUsIGlmIHRoZXJlIGlzIHN1cHBvcnQgZm9yIGluY2x1ZGluZyB0 aGUgInJlYWwiIFVuaWNvZGUgCj4gY2xpY2tzLCBJIGJlbGlldmUgdGhlc2Ugc2hvdWxkIGJlIGlu IGFkZGl0aW9uIHRvLCByYXRoZXIgdGhhbiBhcyAKPiByZXBsYWNlbWVudHMgZm9yLCB0aGUgcmVw cmVzZW50YXRpb25zIHdlIGdvdCBmcm9tIElTTyA2MzktMy4KCkluIHRoYXQgY2FzZSwgSSBvcHBv c2UgYWRkaW5nIHRoZW0uICBXZSByZWFsbHkgZG9uJ3QgbmVlZCBtb3JlIAp0eXBvZ3JhcGhpY2Fs IGR1cGxpY2F0ZXMgdGhhdCBhZGQgbm8gbmV3IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uLCBidXQgbWVyZWx5IGNhbGwg CmF0dGVudGlvbiB0byBwZXJjZWl2ZWQgY2hhcmFjdGVyIHNldCBwcm9ibGVtcyBvciBmb250IGNv dmVyYWdlIHByb2JsZW1zLiAKV2UgYWxyZWFkeSBoYXZlOgoKRGVzY3JpcHRpb246IEV0aGlvcGlj IChHZcq7ZXopCkRlc2NyaXB0aW9uOiBFdGhpb3BpYyAoR2UnZXopCgphbmQ6CgpEZXNjcmlwdGlv bjogSGFuZ3VsIChIYW5nxa1sLCBIYW5nZXVsKQoKYW5kOgoKQWxzbyBrbm93biBhczogTmV3IFR1 cmtpYyBBbHBoYWJldDsgQmlybNOZxZ9kaXJpbG1pxZ8gSmVuaSBUeXJrINOYbGlmYmFz0YwgCihC aXJsZXNkaXJpbG1pcyBKZW5pIFR5cmsgRWxpZmJhc2kpOyBKYcWLYWxpZiAoSmFuYWxpZikuCgph bmQgSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGlzIG5vbnNlbnNlLCBhbmQgSSBhbSB0cnlpbmcgdG8gZ2V0IHJpZCBv ZiBpdC4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMg NDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYu b3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5k Lm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGll dGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 00:06:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560333A687A; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:06:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A99B3A6A2B for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:06:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.55 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MANGLED_EMAIL=2.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jxw5R5Fx4cHS for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC383A687A for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6U6RtGj014940 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:27:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 688f_a50b0742_5e00_11dd_8f69_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:27:55 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:50684) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:21:42 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080730151927.087dcfb0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:21:00 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" , "John Cowan" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <30b660a20807280020t60985eb1gc73b91742efb3819@mail.gmail.co m> References: <71710A94B0954DF6B50665E2F20A0BD2@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0148096DCD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <3CC83F9ED89B47FA97C55AC382467198@DGBP7M81> <20080725042258.GE30818@mercury.ccil.org> <247C59E69524411590A94B402D08560C@DGBP7M81> <20080725043625.GF30818@mercury.ccil.org> <149CEF020BBE4CCB8348A215EFAC4D98@DGBP7M81> <6.0.0.20.2.20080726123239.05c715e0@localhost> <20080728034508.GP8260@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20807280020t60985eb1gc73b91742efb3819@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Two grandfathered tags for 'Hakka' X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org One additional argument is that people who hit the PU section of the registry will shake their head and say "well, that's why this page is so huge". They are of course wrong, but I'd rather make people looking at the registry look at the actual data (actual languages!) as much as possible. Regards, Martin. At 16:20 08/07/28, Mark Davis wrote: >I'm a bit split on this. I'm generally in favor of simpler parsing, but the effort needed to parse the ranges used for Private Use is extremely small -- only a couple of (straightforward) lines of code. > >So I could live with it either way. > >Mark > > >On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 8:45 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote: >Martin Duerst scripsit: >> I'm fine with "Private Use" or "private use", much better than >> "PRIVATE USE". On the other hand, I don't think it's a good idea >> to make our registry even longer by expanding these. It would expand >> our registry by about 10%. > >I don't think a 10% expansion is a bad trade-off, considering how >big the registry is going to get, for simpler parsing. > >-- >John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan >Heckler: "Go on, Al, tell 'em all you know. It won't take long." >Al Smith: "I'll tell 'em all we *both* know. It won't take any longer." >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 21:59:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009153A6C05; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:59:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05ABE3A6BFE for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.111, BAYES_20=-0.74, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oXx6ugoTM0hL for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F9D53A6A04 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23080 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2008 04:59:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.22) with ESMTP; 31 Jul 2008 04:59:37 -0000 Message-ID: <0F33895E457549E1BAF9FC14305A3232@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" , Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:59:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: [Ltru] Duplicate Busters: Survey #1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org VGhpcyBpcyB0aGUgZmlyc3Qgb2YgdHdvIHN1cnZleXMgdGhhdCBhcmUgYmVpbmcgZGlzdHJpYnV0 ZWQgdG8gYm90aCB0aGUgCkxUUlUgYW5kIGlldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIGdyb3VwcywgdG8gZGV0ZXJt aW5lIGhvdyB0byByZXNvbHZlIHR3byAKZGlmZmVyZW50IHR5cGVzIG9mIGR1cGxpY2F0ZSBEZXNj cmlwdGlvbiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpbiB0aGUgSUFOQSAKTGFuZ3VhZ2UgU3VidGFnIFJlZ2lzdHJ5 LiAgVGhlIHJlc3VsdHMgd2lsbCBhZmZlY3QgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnRzIG9mIHRoZSAKZnV0dXJlIChS RkMgNDY0NmJpcykgUmVnaXN0cnksIGFuZCBzb21lIG9mIHRoZSByZXN1bHRzIG1heSBhZmZlY3Qg dGhlIApjdXJyZW50IChSRkMgNDY0NikgUmVnaXN0cnkgYXMgd2VsbC4KCkkgZmVlbCBpdCBpcyBp bXBvcnRhbnQgdG8gaW52b2x2ZSBib3RoIHRoZSBMVFJVIChydWxlLW1ha2luZykgYW5kIAppZXRm LWxhbmd1YWdlcyAocnVsZS1hcHBseWluZykgZ3JvdXBzIGluIHRoaXMgcHJvY2VzcywgdG8gbWF4 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bmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVA aWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 04:32:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6157A3A6B43; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 04:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7453A69DA for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 04:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qcQHlfOtajpz for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 04:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F7E3A67A8 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 04:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.6) with ESMTP id md50008328874.msg for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:27:20 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:27:20 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=10988ef1f9=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:16:08 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" , References: <0F33895E457549E1BAF9FC14305A3232@DGBP7M81> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:16:03 +0100 Message-ID: <082d01c8f2fe$d2864910$0c00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <0F33895E457549E1BAF9FC14305A3232@DGBP7M81> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: Acjyyp/l4xK5Wu5LRWykO3wkffa5FgAM/bJw X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:27:21 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Duplicate Busters: Survey #1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0417457036==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0417457036== Hi Doug This is excellent work but I would like to see change requests submitted to the RA for the appropriate standard where you have recommended changes either prior to or in addition to LTRU/ietf-languages making these decisions. Best regards Debbie > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no > [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell > Sent: 31 July 2008 06:00 > To: LTRU Working Group; ietf-languages@iana.org > Subject: Duplicate Busters: Survey #1 > > This is the first of two surveys that are being distributed > to both the LTRU and ietf-languages groups, to determine how > to resolve two different types of duplicate Description > information in the IANA Language Subtag Registry. The > results will affect the contents of the future (RFC 4646bis) > Registry, and some of the results may affect the current (RFC > 4646) Registry as well. > > I feel it is important to involve both the LTRU (rule-making) > and ietf-languages (rule-applying) groups in this process, to > maximize the chances that the same rules will be applied both > now and in the future when similar conflicts arise. > > This survey deals with exact duplicates, cases where two > different subtags or tags have the same Description in the > current or proposed Registry. For each case, I provide the > two (or three) conflicting records, along with suggested > changes that would resolve the conflict in a way consistent > with other Registry entries, and a brief discussion > explaining the proposed change. Please send your comments to > the list, either supporting the suggested changes or offering > alternative solutions. When the rate of list responses slows > sufficiently, I will make decisions based on list feedback > and apply them in the next iteration of draft-4645bis. > > All supporting encyclopedic information on languages is from > Ethnologue, or from Change Request Forms used to add the > language or change its > name(s) in ISO 639-3. Please do not use this survey as an > opportunity to criticize Ethnologue or ISO 639-3 as general > sources of language information or classification. Our > objective is simply to find a sensible and consistent way to > distinguish two different languages with the same name. > Anyone who has information from another source that > contradicts or augments the information below is asked to > share this information with the list, to help us make the > best possible naming choices. > > === > > Type: language > Subtag: aru > Description: Aruá > --> REPLACE WITH: Aruá (Arauan) > Description: Arawá > Added: 2029-09-09 > > Type: language > Subtag: arx > Description: Aruá > --> REPLACE WITH: Aruá (Monde) > Added: 2029-09-09 > > Discussion: > Both of these are listed in Ethnologue as "a language of > Brazil," so region cannot be used as a distinguishing > feature. 'aru' is extinct, but this is also not a good > attribute by which to distinguish the two, especially since > 'arx' has only 12 speakers itself. 'aru' is listed as a > member of the Arauan language family and 'arx' as a member of > the Monde family, so this seems to be the best choice. > > === > > Type: language > Subtag: awb > Description: Awa > --> REPLACE WITH: Description: Awa (Papua New Guinea) > Added: 2029-09-09 > > Type: language > Subtag: vwa > Description: Awa > --> REPLACE WITH: Description: Awa (China) > Added: 2029-09-09 > > Discussion: > Region for 'awb' is as listed in Ethnologue. Region for > 'vwa' is as indicated on ISO 639-3 Change Request Form 2007-010. > > === > > Type: language > Subtag: bwo > Description: Boro > Description: Borna > --> REPLACE WITH: Description: Borna (Ethiopia) > Added: 2029-09-09 > > Type: language > Subtag: bxx > Description: Borna > --> REPLACE WITH: Description: Borna (Democratic Republic of Congo) > Added: 2029-09-09 > > Discussion: > Regions are as listed in Ethnologue. The form "Democratic > Republic of Congo" (without "the") is consistent with that > used with other languages in ISO 639-3. The 639-3 code > element 'bwo' is currently the subject of a change request, > to change the name "Boro" to "Boro (Ethiopia)" in > anticipation of another Boro being added, thereby confirming > that we are headed down the right path with this renaming effort. > > === > > Type: language > Subtag: diq > Description: Dimli > --> REPLACE WITH: Description: Dimli (individual language) > Added: 2029-09-09 > Macrolanguage: zza > > Type: language > Subtag: kiu > Description: Kirmanjki > --> REPLACE WITH: Description: Kirmanjki (individual language) > Added: 2029-09-09 > Macrolanguage: zza > > Type: language > Subtag: zza > Description: Zaza > Description: Dimili > Description: Dimli > --> REPLACE WITH: Description: Dimli (macrolanguage) > Description: Kirdki > Description: Kirmanjki > --> REPLACE WITH: Description: Kirmanjki (macrolanguage) > Description: Zazaki > Added: 2006-08-24 > Scope: macrolanguage > > Discussion: > These three cases are handled together due to their > commonality. Both Dimli and Kirmanjki are individual > languages encompassed within Zaza, which may also be called > Dimli or Kirmanjki, neatly exemplifying the concept of a > macrolanguage. The strings "individual language" and > "macrolanguage" are used extensively in 639-3 for this > purpose; see, for example, Dogri. > > === > > Type: language > Subtag: he > Description: Hebrew > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > Suppress-Script: Hebr > > Type: language > Subtag: iw > Description: Hebrew > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > Deprecated: 1989-01-01 > Preferred-Value: he > Suppress-Script: Hebr > > Discussion: > No change is proposed to this pair of Description fields > since 'iw' is deprecated with a Preferred-Value of 'he'. > > === > > Type: language > Subtag: id > Description: Indonesian > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > Suppress-Script: Latn > > Type: language > Subtag: in > Description: Indonesian > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > Deprecated: 1989-01-01 > Preferred-Value: id > Suppress-Script: Latn > > Discussion: > No change is proposed to this pair of Description fields > since 'in' is deprecated with a Preferred-Value of 'id'. > > === > > Type: language > Subtag: jv > Description: Javanese > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > > Type: language > Subtag: jw > Description: Javanese > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > Deprecated: 2001-08-13 > Preferred-Value: jv > Comments: published by error in Table 1 of ISO 639:1988 > > Discussion: > No change is proposed to this pair of Description fields > since 'jw' is deprecated with a Preferred-Value of 'jv'. > > === > > Type: language > Subtag: mtf > Description: Murik > --> REPLACE WITH: Description: Murik (Papua New Guinea) > Added: 2029-09-09 > > Type: language > Subtag: mxr > Description: Murik > --> REPLACE WITH: Description: Murik (Malaysia) > Added: 2029-09-09 > > Discussion: > Regions are as listed in Ethnologue. > > === > > Type: language > Subtag: ji > Description: Yiddish > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > Deprecated: 1989-01-01 > Preferred-Value: yi > > Type: language > Subtag: yi > Description: Yiddish > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > Suppress-Script: Hebr > Scope: macrolanguage > > Discussion: > No change is proposed to this pair of Description fields > since 'ji' is deprecated with a Preferred-Value of 'yi'. > > === > > Type: region > Subtag: AA > Description: Private use > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > > Type: region > Subtag: QM..QZ > Description: Private use > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > > Type: region > Subtag: XA..XZ > Description: Private use > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > > Type: region > Subtag: ZZ > Description: Private use > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 2005-10-16 > > Discussion: > No change is proposed to these four Description fields since > they have the same semantic and since private-use subtags > listed in the Registry must be handled specially anyway. The > only way to disambiguate these values would be to use > something like "Private use-AA", which would be completely > arbitrary and would not solve the special-handling problem. > The question of whether to unpack the "range" records into > individual records (currently being discussed on LTRU) is > orthogonal to the present survey. > > === > > Type: grandfathered > Tag: i-hak > Description: Hakka > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 1999-01-31 > Deprecated: 2000-01-10 > Preferred-Value: hak > > Type: grandfathered > Tag: zh-hakka > Description: Hakka > --> NO CHANGE > Added: 1999-12-18 > Deprecated: 2029-09-09 > Preferred-Value: hak > > Discussion: > No change is proposed to this pair of Description fields > since both are deprecated with a Preferred-Value equal to the > language subtag 'hak', which has a Description of "Hakka Chinese". > > > -- > Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN > #14 http://www.ewellic.org > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > --===============0417457036== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0417457036==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 09:33:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28FC3A6C6F; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6773A6C6E for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:01:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BhUh90z0MQof for ; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1797243410==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 10:09:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86E13A6D0E; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:09:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D55093A6D0A for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:09:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.383, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S8qIe6wpit6U for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E610C3A6D08 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KObeg-00048H-MW; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:09:34 -0400 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:09:34 -0400 To: ISO639-3@sil.org Message-ID: <20080731170934.GD25014@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Duplicate Busters: Survey #1 [bwo] and [bxx] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org ISO639-3@sil.org scripsit: > In other words, can the same name be used with two different code elements > without further qualification if they are not the reference names in both > instances? I don't speak for the IETF, but our current draft document forbids this situation (within a given domain; "Mongolian" can safely be the name of both a language and a script, for example), which is why these cases have come up now. To draw an example from a more familiar part of the world: there is plenty of historical precedent, and perhaps even modern-day usage, for calling German by the name of "Dutch"; but to add "Dutch" to the list of alternative names for Standard German would be productive of nothing but horrible confusion. -- There is no real going back. Though I John Cowan may come to the Shire, it will not seem cowan@ccil.org the same; for I shall not be the same. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest? --Frodo _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 12:36:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5D628C189; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:36:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F963A6D2D for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:36:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost 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EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:36:21 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "ISO639-3@sil.org" , LTRU Working Group , "ietf-languages@iana.org" Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:36:50 -0700 Thread-Topic: Duplicate Busters: Survey #1 [bwo] and [bxx] Thread-Index: AcjzLvDojbQGCDC+Tz6xMcCptbSsbwAFQWDQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014A3C18E3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Duplicate Busters: Survey #1 [bwo] and [bxx] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1577335688==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: 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ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2149528C335; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFDCC28C2D2 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:12:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nd-9fpWUBkwQ for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.wsfo.org (smtp2.wsfo.org [208.145.81.52]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D2928C338 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwcom.sil.org (philippi.dallas.sil.org [172.20.1.21]) by smtp2.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m6VMCNTZ025730; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:12:25 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014A3C18E3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> From: ISO639-3@sil.org To: LTRU Working Group , "ietf-languages@iana.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 49F5B6F2:DF5D65F5-86257497:007108AE; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0.2 September 26, 2006 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:12:18 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on DFWCOM/Servers/WCT(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 07/31/2008 05:12:20 PM, Serialize complete at 07/31/2008 05:12:20 PM X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 172.22.0.52 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Duplicate Busters: Survey #1 [bwo] and [bxx] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825EE3A6CC9 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:36:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.076, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MLur2b+BeWEP for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout04-02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout04-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.196]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 731563A6C9D for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17895 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2008 02:37:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout04-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.199) with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2008 02:37:10 -0000 Message-ID: <3DC4871F1D454B75858B789B48348574@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:37:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Duplicate Busters: Survey #1 [bwo] and [bxx] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sm9hbiBTcGFubmUgPElTTzYzOSBkYXNoIDMgYXQgc2lsIGRvdCBvcmc+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBJIHdp bGwgdGFrZSBhY3Rpb24gdG8gcmVzb2x2ZSB0aGUgbWF0dGVyIGZvciBlYWNoIG9mIHRoZSBmb3Vy IChBcnXDoTsgCj4gQXdhOyBCb3JuYTsgTXVyaWspIGJ5IGVhcmx5IG5leHQgd2Vlay4KCkknbSBk 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for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:03:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.97 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.97 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.572, BAYES_50=0.001, GB_I_LETTER=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0oAo5D4L2eIo for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.182]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EB2B628C381 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7375 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2008 05:02:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.182) with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2008 05:02:32 -0000 Message-ID: <804CC246A33E4BFBB9673BF3C0232323@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" , Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:02:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Subject: [Ltru] Duplicate Busters: Survey #2 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org VGhpcyBpcyB0aGUgc2Vjb25kIG9mIHR3byBzdXJ2ZXlzIGJlaW5nIHNlbnQgdG8gYm90aCBMVFJV IGFuZCAKaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgb24gdGhlIHN1YmplY3Qgb2YgcmVtb3ZpbmcgY2VydGFpbiBk dXBsaWNhdGUgRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gCmZpZWxkcyBpbiB0aGUgTGFuZ3VhZ2UgU3VidGFnIFJlZ2lz dHJ5LiAgU29tZSBvZiB0aGVzZSBpc3N1ZXMgYWZmZWN0IHRoZSAKY3VycmVudCBSZWdpc3RyeSwg d2hpbGUgb3RoZXJzIGFmZmVjdCBvbmx5IHRoZSBwcm9wb3NlZCBSRkMgNDY0NmJpcyAKUmVnaXN0 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b3JlYW4gd29yZCwgbm90IGEgZ2VudWluZWx5IGRpZmZlcmVudCBuYW1lLiAKTWFrZSB5b3VyIG93 biBqdWRnbWVudC4pCgotLS0KClR5cGU6IHNjcmlwdApTdWJ0YWc6IEhhbm8KRGVzY3JpcHRpb246 IEhhbnVub28KRGVzY3JpcHRpb246IEhhbnVuJiN4RjM7bwoKCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRo b3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3 LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFy dGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1s YW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 22:27:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4523A69C7; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:27:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184BB3A69CC for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:27:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.345 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.345 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.255, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vMFtxf2zo4T6 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.228.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553353A69C7 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2432BC6C for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:27:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4oQnEm9pE69i for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:27:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p5B3ED750.dip.t-dialin.net [91.62.215.80]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB392BC69 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:27:48 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <48929EC0.4090707@w3.org> Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:27:28 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Using BCP 47 for translation information X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org There is a proposal to use BCP 47 for translation information in HTML5. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0005.html and the start of the thread at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0427.html Comments are very welcome. Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 22:34:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A663A69F6; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:34:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528683A69F6 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:34:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KHTmaR0h+F+x for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861E73A69E0 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:34:19 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,290,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="83586409" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Aug 2008 05:34:31 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m715YS5n018979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Aug 2008 05:34:28 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:34:27 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Felix Sasaki , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:34:26 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Using BCP 47 for translation information Thread-Index: Acjzl2ehZN+AxjthS4mCSMuyeQ4yfgAAKssQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014A4ECD03@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <48929EC0.4090707@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <48929EC0.4090707@w3.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Using BCP 47 for translation information X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Note: I made a partially responding comment on the "winter" (www-international@w3.org) list in response to Leif Halvard Silli here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2008JulSep/0023.html Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Felix Sasaki > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 10:27 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Using BCP 47 for translation information > > There is a proposal to use BCP 47 for translation information in > HTML5. See > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0005.html > and the start of the thread at > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0427.html > Comments are very welcome. > > Felix > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 22:54:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9263A69E0; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:54:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3DA53A69D4 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:54:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eOX85lBBuJ5B for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FFC13A6A0F for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KOnb4-0007r1-Jt; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 01:54:38 -0400 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 01:54:38 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20080801055438.GJ25014@mercury.ccil.org> References: <804CC246A33E4BFBB9673BF3C0232323@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <804CC246A33E4BFBB9673BF3C0232323@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Duplicate Busters: Survey #2 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: [snip] In each case keep the first exccept as noted. > --- > > Type: script > Subtag: Ethi > Description: Geʻez > Description: Ge'ez Keep the second. > --- > > Type: script > Subtag: Hang > Description: Hangul > Description: Hangŭl > Description: Hangeul Keep the first and third. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan And now here I was, in a country where a right to say how the country should be governed was restricted to six persons in each thousand of its population. For the nine hundred and ninety-four to express dissatisfaction with the regnant system and propose to change it, would have made the whole six shudder as one man, it would have been so disloyal, so dishonorable, such putrid black treason. --Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 1 01:51:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 058543A6ACE; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 01:51:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22EBD3A6A7C for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 01:51:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.372, BAYES_05=-1.11, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mBlcYzSzzmFi for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 01:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153B528C0E3 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 01:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:33029 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KOqMA-00026L-4v; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:51:26 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" , References: <0F33895E457549E1BAF9FC14305A3232@DGBP7M81> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 10:50:59 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 In-Reply-To: <0F33895E457549E1BAF9FC14305A3232@DGBP7M81> Thread-Index: Acjyyk9uwUHM+QWpROuy63npTuk9YAA6RHzA X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KOqMA-00026L-4v. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1KOqMA-00026L-4v de8f9cb3e0c600ec182b7ae0bf0c6849 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Duplicate Busters: Survey #1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > This is the first of two surveys that are being distributed I agree with Doug's suggested changes in the "#1" list, in particular if 639-3 RA misses out on some name changes (promised for next week). /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru