From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 02:34:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625633A692D; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 02:34:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DD33A68B6 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 02:34:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MyA6wUNqyyzR for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 02:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F573A692D for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 02:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Kky6F-00071X-9F; Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:34:27 +0200 Message-ID: <48E34422.7090808@malform.no> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:34:26 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C597C86@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><00d701c9233d$36b3cca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><20080930210006.GA28193@sources.org><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C5983F9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><20080930222123.GA10223@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20809302325td42a661q9e08cffdc1a045f3@mail.gmail.com> <006201c92392$3f0bb8e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <006201c92392$3f0bb8e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags (Was: BCP47 Appeals process X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn 2008-10-01 08.52: > As a technical contributor... >> From: "Mark Davis" >> I'm not opposed to >> >> de-1901 >> uz-1901 >> and so on. These are meaningful and easy for people to understand. >> >> I think that can be encapsulated as: >> >> Type: variant >> Subtag: 2003 >> Description: Denotes a change in orthography, transliteration, or other >> usage associated with the publication of a significant standard or other >> specification in 2003 >> Prefix: de >> Prefix: uz >> Prefix: be-ungegn >> >> We can then add prefixes that are known to have such cases over time. > > I'm worried about "fuzziness" creeping in in cases like this. > A registration request might provide a very precise definition, > identifying a particular national or international standard > for a particular prefix. "First to mill" doesn't seem the right principle when it comes to the right to "occupy" number "2003" - referring to year 2003 AD. Therefore, I agree with Mark that this makes sense. Defining e.g. "2003" the way Mark suggests here, also creates a "registration pattern": It shows a way to do it. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 03:10:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249DD3A6A2D; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE00B3A6A2A for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sN7KzhmaUS+v for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C97F3A680A for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m91AAKFG017866 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:10:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 5258_279c04aa_8fa1_11dd_8b11_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:10:20 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:43152) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:03:15 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081001151840.095f8748@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:28:02 +0900 To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <00d701c9233d$36b3cca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C1B5FF9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080930133913.09573c38@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C4CD264@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20809292333wcc9f094r223f02991a8565e2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C597BF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080930152004.GA1230@nic.fr> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C597C86@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <00d701c9233d$36b3cca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags (Was: BCP47 Appeals process X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I'm not really sure what's wrong, in terms of "figuring it out" with: Type: variant Subtag: 1901 Description: German orthography of 1901 Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 Prefix: de Prefix: uz (it should be clear that the 'de' is German and the 'uz' is Uzbek). If this isn't clear, then what about the following: Type: variant Subtag: 1901 Description: German orthography of 1901 Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 Prefix: de Prefix: uz Comment: with Prefix de, German orthography of 1901 Comment: with Prefix uz, Uzbek transliteration of 1901 (but it seems kind of silly, doesn't it). I'm not saying we should do this a lot, but I don't see any really fundamental problem with it in terms of figuring out what things mean, which is the most important point. Regards, Martin. At 05:43 08/10/01, Randy Presuhn wrote: >Hi - > >As a technical contributor... > >> From: "Phillips, Addison" >> To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" >> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" ; "Ewell" ; > >> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:39 AM >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags (Was: BCP47 Appeals process >> >> Let me retry expressing this. Consider this record: >> >> Type: variant >> Subtag: 1901 >> Description: German orthography of 1901 >> Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 >> Prefix: de >> Prefix: uz >> Comments: Good luck figuring this out. > >This is precisely how the ietf-languages@iana.org list appears >to proposing that "pinyin" be handled. > >Consider, on the other hand... > >Type: variant >Subtag: 1901 >Description: German orthography of 1901 >Prefix: de >Comments: Should be clear. > >Type: variant >Subtag: 1901 >Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 >Prefix: uz >Comments: Should be clear. > >We should be clear about whether we want to permit this or not. >I think there is no problem when the prefix is used. The problem >is figuring out what it means when one of these variants is used >with any other prefix. (It's also a problem if someone has used the >subtag as a database key.) > >Randy > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 03:10:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3721728C0EB; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFA803A6A34 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JDHCd9gZaEhg for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE8C3A680A for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m91AAOO6017902 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:10:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3397_29925548_8fa1_11dd_8aa7_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:10:24 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:43152) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:03:18 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081001153828.094a1b18@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:45:49 +0900 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , "Phillips, Addison" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <20080930203957.GA27467@sources.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C1B5FF9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20080930133913.09573c38@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C4CD264@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20809292333wcc9f094r223f02991a8565e2@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C597BF5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080930152004.GA1230@nic.fr> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C597C8C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20080930203957.GA27467@sources.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags (Was: BCP47 Appeals process X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 05:39 08/10/01, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 08:40:36AM -0700, > Phillips, Addison wrote > a message of 41 lines which said: > >> Since there is no consensus on my proposed change, unless directed >> by the chairs otherwise, I will removed my proposed text from the >> editor's copy before incorporating any other changes. > >True, there is no consensus yet but the issue is a real one, no? RFC >4646 does not provide clear guidance (although ietf-languages' >practice has always been to refuse identical variant >subtags). Shouldn't we delay the I-D a bit for that? I hope we can restrict this to the a very short time. Everybody, please comment quickly and express clearly what you can absolutely not live with vs. just desirable stuff, so that we can converge quickly. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 03:10:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586693A6A2A; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39C328C1A2 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JOSggazZWWC8 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27F63A69EB for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m91AALgN000359 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:10:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 3385_282f6f42_8fa1_11dd_834b_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:10:21 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:43152) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:03:16 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081001153702.094a1d98@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:37:47 +0900 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Randy Presuhn From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags (Was: BCP47 Appeals process X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 06:00 08/10/01, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >Yes. It seems most developers assumed that identical variant subtags >were forbidden and so allowing your solution would break >compatibility. > >Also, for all other types, duplication of a subtag is forbidden. It >may be difficult to explain why variants are different. From an implementation point of view, it may be very difficult to explain. From a user point, it's rather easy to explain; variants are secondary information, whereas others (incl. regions, scipts) have a primary meaning, even if they are used for secondary distinctions in language tags. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 06:37:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76EC28C186; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 06:37:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F143A6901 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 06:37:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.371, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NO8s87aGU+Fy for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 06:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.182]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 04B233A6768 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 06:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16528 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2008 13:37:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.182) with ESMTP; 01 Oct 2008 13:37:40 -0000 Message-ID: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:37:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFueSB3cm90ZToKCj4+PiBJIGFtIHdob2xseSBhbmQgdXR0ZXJseSBvcHBvc2VkIHRvIGFsbG93 aW5nIHR3byByZWNvcmRzIG9mIHRoZSBzYW1lIAo+Pj4gdHlwZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBzYW1lIHN1YnRh Zy4KPj4KPj4gQW5kIHNvIGFtIEkuCj4KPiBBcyBhbSBJLgoKTWUgdG9vLiAgQ291bGQgbm90IGxp dmUgd2l0aCB0aGlzLgoKTWFyayBhZGRlZDoKCj4gSSdtIG5vdCBvcHBvc2VkIHRvCj4KPiBkZS0x OTAxCj4gdXotMTkwMQo+IGFuZCBzbyBvbi4gVGhlc2UgYXJlIG1lYW5pbmdmdWwgYW5kIGVhc3kg Zm9yIHBlb3BsZSB0byB1bmRlcnN0YW5kLgoKQXMgYSBtYXR0ZXIgb2Ygc3VidGFnIGFzc2lnbm1l bnQgcG9saWN5LCB3aGljaCBpcyByZWFsbHkgYSBxdWVzdGlvbiBmb3IgCmlldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2Vz LCBJIHRoaW5rIHdlIGFyZSBzZXJpb3VzbHkgb3ZlcmVzdGltYXRpbmcgYm90aCB0aGUgbmVlZCB0 byAKdGFnIHZhcmlhdGlvbnMgaWRlbnRpZmllZCBieSBhIHllYXIgYW5kIHRoZSBsaWtlbGlob29k IHRoYXQgdXNlcnMgd2lsbCAKY29ubmVjdCB0aGVzZSB5ZWFyIG51bWJlcnMgdG8gdGhlIHZhcmlh dGlvbnMuCgpHZXJtYW4gd2FzIGEgbm90YWJsZSBzcGVjaWFsIGNhc2U6IGl0IGhhZCBhIHdlbGwt a25vd24sIHdpZGVseSAKcHVibGljaXplZCwgYW5kIG11Y2gtZGViYXRlZCBvcnRob2dyYXBoaWMg cmV2aXNpb24gZm9yIHdoaWNoIHdlIGVuZGVkIHVwIApjcmVhdGluZyB0aGUgdGFnICJkZS0xOTk2 IiAod2l0aCBjb21wbGVtZW50ICJkZS0xOTAxIiBmb3IgdGhlIG9sZCAKb3J0aG9ncmFwaHkpIGJh Y2sgaW4gdGhlIFJGQyAzMDY2IHdob2xlLXRhZyBkYXlzLiAgVGhpcyB3YXMgbGFyZ2VseSAKYmVj YXVzZSB3ZSB3YW50ZWQgdG8gYXZvaWQgc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgImRlLXJldmlzZWQiIGtub3dp bmcgdGhhdCBpdCAKbWlnaHQgYmUgcmV2aXNlZCBhZ2FpbiBzb21lIGRheS4gIEhvd2V2ZXIsIGV2 ZW4gbm93IHdlIHRhbGsgb2YgImRlLTE5MDEiIAphbmQgImRlLTE5OTYiIGFzIG1ha2luZyBkaXN0 aW5jdGlvbnMgdGhhdCB1c3VhbGx5IGRvbid0IG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgbWFkZTsgCnNlZSwgZm9yIGV4 YW1wbGUsIFNlY3Rpb24gNC4xIG9mIGJvdGggUkZDIDQ2NDYgYW5kIGRyYWZ0LTQ2NDZiaXMtMTcu CgpTaW5jZSBhc3NpZ25pbmcgIjE5OTQiIHRvIGEgUmVzaWFuIG9ydGhvZ3JhcGh5IGludmVudGVk IGJ5IEhhbiAKU3RlZW53aWprLCB3aGljaCBtaWdodCB3ZWxsIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBuYW1lZCBmb3Ig aGltIGluc3RlYWQsIAppZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyBoYXMgYmVlbiBtb3JlIGFuZCBtb3JlIHdpbGxp bmcgdG8gdXNlIHllYXIgbnVtYmVycyB0byAKaWRlbnRpZnkgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdmFyaWF0aW9ucywg ZXZlbiB0aG9zZSB3aGVyZSB0aGUgdmFyaWF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCAKY29tbW9ubHkgYXNzb2NpYXRl ZCB3aXRoIHRoZSB5ZWFyLCBvciB3aGVyZSByZWd1bGFyIHJldmlzaW9ucyAKaWRlbnRpZmlhYmxl IGJ5IHllYXIgYXJlIG5vdCBleHBlY3RlZC4gIFdlIGFyZSBhYm91dCB0byByZWdpc3RlciAKJzE5 NTlhY2FkJyBmb3IgQmVsYXJ1c2lhbiBldmVuIHRob3VnaCB3ZSBkaXN0aW5ndWlzaCBubyBvdGhl ciByZXZpc2lvbnMgCm9mIEFjYWRlbXkgQmVsYXJ1c2lhbiwgYW5kIHdlIHdlcmUgY29uc2lkZXJp bmcgJ2hwaW4xOTU4JyBmb3IgSGFueXUgClBpbnlpbiBldmVuIHRob3VnaCB0aGUgZGlzdGluY3Rp b24gd2Ugd2FudGVkIHRvIGRyYXcgd2FzIGJldHdlZW4gSGFueXUgCmFuZCBvdGhlciBQaW55aW5z LCBub3QgYmV0d2VlbiAxOTU4IGFuZCBhbnkgb3RoZXIgcmV2aXNpb24uCgpJJ20gbm90IHNheWlu ZyB5ZWFyIG51bWJlcnMgZG9uJ3QgZXZlciBoYXZlIHRoZWlyIHBsYWNlLCBidXQgaXQgd29ycmll cyAKbWUgd2hlbiB3ZSBleHBlY3QgdGhlbSB0byBiZSBzbyBjb21tb24gdGhhdCB3ZSBhcmUgdGhp bmtpbmcgYWJvdXQgCmNvbXByb21pc2luZyBhbiBpbXBvcnRhbnQgcHJvcGVydHkgb2YgdGhlIFJl Z2lzdHJ5LCB1bmlxdWVuZXNzIG9mIHN1YnRhZyAKdmFsdWVzIHdpdGhpbiB0eXBlLCBpbiBhbnRp Y2lwYXRpb24gdGhhdCB0aGVyZSB3aWxsIGJlIHRvbnMgb2YgdGhlbS4KCkFuZCBubywgSSBkb24n dCBjb25zaWRlciB0aGlzIGluY29uc2lzdGVudCB3aXRoIG15IHBvc2l0aW9uIHRoYXQgJ2NvcnVj JyAKYW5kICdjb3J1cicgYW5kIHNvIGZvcnRoIGFyZSBhY2NlcHRhYmxlIHN1YnRhZ3MuICBUaGVz ZSBtYXkgYmUgY3J5cHRpYywgCmJ1dCB0aGV5IGFyZSBub3QgYXJiaXRyYXJ5LgoKLS0KRG91ZyBF d2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0 Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVy cy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 08:48:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0BF028C1C3; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:48:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA9893A67B3 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:48:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tGdmPbXXlnKg for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D393A6768 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:48:00 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,344,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="54610668" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Oct 2008 15:48:20 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m91FmJpQ018876 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 1 Oct 2008 15:48:20 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:48:19 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:47:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: Ackjyubgj1Lk1JQXRjetmLMQcX3S6wAEEB5g Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C598ACC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > I'm not saying year numbers don't ever have their place, but it > worries > me when we expect them to be so common that we are thinking about > compromising an important property of the Registry, uniqueness of > subtag > values within type, in anticipation that there will be tons of them. I don't think the problem will be common. The problem is that the potential for conflicts is relatively large if years end up being used commonly, since mostly we'll be registering either (a) new events that happen typically in the current or a recent year or (b) standards published in the relatively recent past fifty years or so (1694acad notwithstanding). I don't think it is a huge problem, but I think we should foreclose the possibility of a particular year being given two meanings. Although I think subtags like "1958hpin" (or is it "hpin1958"???) are particularly ugly, they do solve the uniqueness problem pretty well. So I think that formally banning subtag 'repurposing' should be done. > > And no, I don't consider this inconsistent with my position that > 'coruc' > and 'corur' and so forth are acceptable subtags. These may be > cryptic, but they are not arbitrary. It's not inconsistent and your position on those subtags is not incoherent. My concern with them was merely that a tranche of extremely similar subtags might prove confusing and difficult for users to approach, not that they were not "unique enough". Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 16:25:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD463A695F; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:25:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787283A6912 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:25:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hbqz7MbOfq3a for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15AE93A67A4 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KlB4i-0004Fw-U0; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 01:25:45 +0200 Message-ID: <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 01:25:44 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell 2008-10-01 15.37: > Many wrote: > >>>> I am wholly and utterly opposed to allowing two records of the same >>>> type with the same subtag. >>> >>> And so am I. >> >> As am I. > > Me too. Could not live with this. I think Mark actally expressed that registering "2003" as a subtag with the meaning "language reform linked to year 2003" would satisfy the uniqueness requirement. Further down in this letter, you say that you disagree with him (and those of us who agree - at least I and Martin) in this. > Mark added: > >> I'm not opposed to >> >> de-1901 >> uz-1901 >> and so on. These are meaningful and easy for people to understand. > > As a matter of subtag assignment policy, which is really a question for > ietf-languages, Here I must agree that you take up a valid problem. Somehow the years would have to be reserved for a certain use. And what about e.g. "1996", would we be fiddling with what it was registereded as if we said that it from now on means "Language reforms of the following languages linked to year 1996: German, X, Y, Z"? > I think we are seriously overestimating both the need to > tag variations identified by a year and the likelihood that users will > connect these year numbers to the variations. The question isn't, I think, "need to identify by year", but rather "need to identify language reform". Regarding what's likely, that's a matter of what one are used to. The more there is a pattern, the more one will get used to. > German was a notable special case: it had a well-known, widely > publicized, and much-debated orthographic revision for which we ended up > creating the tag "de-1996" (with complement "de-1901" for the old > orthography) back in the RFC 3066 whole-tag days. This was largely > because we wanted to avoid something like "de-revised" knowing that it > might be revised again some day. However, even now we talk of "de-1901" > and "de-1996" as making distinctions that usually don't need to be made; > see, for example, Section 4.1 of both RFC 4646 and draft-4646bis-17. This socalled "well-known"-ness: All that is matter of how familiar you are with the particular language. I do not understand the likelyhood question. Language reforms is a common thing. > Since assigning "1994" to a Resian orthography invented by Han > Steenwijk, which might well have been named for him instead, > ietf-languages has been more and more willing to use year numbers to > identify language variations, even those where the variation is not > commonly associated with the year, or where regular revisions > identifiable by year are not expected. We are about to register > '1959acad' for Belarusian even though we distinguish no other revisions > of Academy Belarusian, and we were considering 'hpin1958' for Hanyu > Pinyin even though the distinction we wanted to draw was between Hanyu > and other Pinyins, not between 1958 and any other revision. Here you bring up some relevant "hairs in the soup": Even if we establish that years are to mean "language reform", there will still be some subtags which do not fit nicely into the system, and also some subtags which aren't contstructed that way (as years) even though they (perhaps) could have been. > I'm not saying year numbers don't ever have their place, but it worries > me when we expect them to be so common that we are thinking about > compromising an important property of the Registry, uniqueness of subtag > values within type, in anticipation that there will be tons of them. So you disagree with Mark's intepretation of how to understand uniqueness. Regarding "tons": The fact of the matter is that coming up with - and agreeing to - language subtag *names* is an extra burdon for any registerer. It is an extra fence to protect against registration of variation subtags. (The region subtags are not decided by us, you know, but by the UN ... etc.) While OTOH, using year for language reforms, is very inviting. It could encourage registration. Should that be avoided? > And no, I don't consider this inconsistent with my position that 'coruc' > and 'corur' and so forth are acceptable subtags. These may be cryptic, > but they are not arbitrary. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 19:15:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC3063A6958; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:15:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8C13A6958 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:15:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.123 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.123 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.175, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, MANGLED_NAIL=2.3, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pgYALCaZCtD6 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 43EF13A68A2 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26779 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2008 02:16:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.183) with ESMTP; 02 Oct 2008 02:16:12 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C598ACC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:16:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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02 Oct 2008 03:18:48 -0000 Message-ID: <0715BED2DA164F5781B8C2C400ECF371@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:18:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: [Ltru] Recent changes in ISO 639-3 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TmV3IElTTyA2MzktMyBkYXRhIGZpbGVzIGRhdGVkIDIwMDgtMDktMzAgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHBvc3Rl ZCBvbiB0aGUgUkEncyAKV2ViIHNpdGUuCgpUaGUgb25seSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSBw cmV2aW91cyByZWxlYXNlIGFyZSB0aGF0IE8nY2hpJ2NoaScgKHhvYykgCmFuZCBZYWxha2Fsb3Jl ICh4eWwpIGhhdmUgYmVlbiByZWNsYXNzaWZpZWQgZnJvbSAibGl2aW5nIiB0byAiZXh0aW5jdC4i IApTaW5jZSB0aGlzIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCByZWZsZWN0ZWQgaW4gdGhlIHByb3Bvc2Vk IDQ2NDZiaXMgClJlZ2lzdHJ5LCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgbm8gY2hhbmdlcyBuZWNlc3NhcnkgdG8gZHJh ZnQtNDY0NWJpcyB0byBicmluZyBpdCB1cCAKdG8gImlmIHRoaXMgd2VyZSBhcHByb3ZlZCB0b2Rh eSIgc3RhdHVzLgoKSG93ZXZlciwgSm9hbiBTcGFubmUgb2YgSVNPIDYzOS0zL1JBIG1lbnRpb25l ZCBvbiB0aGUgaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgCmxpc3QgdGhhdCBvbmUgY29kZSBlbGVtZW50IGlzIHBs YW5uZWQgdG8gYmUgcmV0aXJlZCBhcyBhIGR1cGxpY2F0ZSwgYW5kIAp0aGUgbGlzdCBpcyBjdXJy ZW50bHkgZGViYXRpbmcgc29tZSB2YXJpYW50IHN1YnRhZ3MgYW5kIHdhaXRpbmcgb3V0IHRoZSAK cmV2aWV3IHBlcmlvZCBmb3Igb3RoZXJzLCBzbyB0aGVyZSB3aWxsIGJlIGNoYW5nZXMuICBUaGVz ZSB3b24ndCAKbmVjZXNzaXRhdGUgYSBuZXcgZHJhZnQgYXQgdGhpcyBzdGFnZSwgYnV0IEknbGwg cG9zdCBjbGVhcmx5LW1hcmtlZCAKdXBkYXRlcyB0byBteSBkcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzIFdlYiBwYWdl IHdoZW4gaXQgYmVjb21lcyBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZS4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9u LCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxs aWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0 bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFn ZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpM dHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 20:40:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F29D3A68BA; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:40:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56DA3A68A2 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:40:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.022 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.479, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KJ0R9ZQ3Hr2v for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A6F3A681B for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.23]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m923esnu028699 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:40:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 6ec2_ea5fad7e_9033_11dd_8855_001d0969ab06; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:40:54 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:35284) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:33:47 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081001153204.094a1b18@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:36:34 +0900 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Randy Presuhn From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <20080930210006.GA28193@sources.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C597C86@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <00d701c9233d$36b3cca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20080930210006.GA28193@sources.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags (Was: BCP47 Appeals process X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 06:00 08/10/01, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >Yes. It seems most developers assumed that identical variant subtags >were forbidden and so allowing your solution would break >compatibility. > >Also, for all other types, duplication of a subtag is forbidden. It >may be difficult to explain why variants are different. From an implementation point of view, it may be very difficult to explain. From a user point, it's rather easy to explain; variants are secondary information, whereas others (incl. regions, scipts) have a primary meaning, even if they are used for secondary distinctions in language tags. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 20:40:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F513A6929; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:40:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EB393A68A2 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:40:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.112, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X9VDt2wSYGm0 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A294C3A6882 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.23]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m923evv1028734 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:40:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 6efe_ec3df74a_9033_11dd_8c82_001d0969ab06; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:40:57 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:35284) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:33:50 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:00:32 +0900 To: Leif Halvard Silli , Doug Ewell From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 08:25 08/10/02, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: >I think Mark actally expressed that registering "2003" as a subtag with the meaning "language reform linked to year 2003" would satisfy the uniqueness requirement. > >Further down in this letter, you say that you disagree with him (and those of us who agree - at least I and Martin) in this. [technical hat on] Just to clarify, I'm not taking much of a side on this issue. I can live with any solution, from having duplicate variant records distinguished by prefix to totally prohibiting variant reuse for even slightly different purposes. [chair hat on] I think I have seen very strong opposition to having multiple records with the same variant subtag, for implementation reasons, and nobody fighting for multiple records as such. Addison and Mark, unless this is already covered in -17, can I ask you to draft some language covering this (and only this) point? I have not yet seen any consensus on the details of the content of that single record. My current tendency, given that we are in a repetition of WG Last Call, and that we have discussed this issue before, is to leave it as it is in -17. >While OTOH, using year for language reforms, is very inviting. It could encourage registration. Should that be avoided? This brings up the general issue of how we might be able to shorten discussions about registrations with clearer guidelines. If you have any ideas on this, please tell us. However, my current understanding would be that clearer guidelines could go one way or another, and that in the absence of any new consensus, we will have to leave it at what we have with -17. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 1 21:26:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668A83A6970; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:26:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 147873A6970 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:26:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hLLMWyiNbXnb for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D063A6803 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:26:23 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,348,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="54911515" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Oct 2008 04:26:00 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m924PwXM007299; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 04:25:58 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:25:58 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:25:17 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Duerst , Leif Halvard Silli , Doug Ewell Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:25:57 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: AckkQLWtXqg9c1S+T8S2GNprBpgL0wABg1pQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > [chair hat on] > I think I have seen very strong opposition to having multiple > records with the same variant subtag, for implementation reasons, > and nobody fighting for multiple records as such. Addison and Mark, > unless this is already covered in -17, can I ask you to draft some > language covering this (and only this) point? I already drafted it in the editor's copy and just proposed removing said draft for lack of any consensus. draft-18 on inter-locale has the proposed text. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 00:10:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6913F3A6AC5; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:10:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FC03A6887 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:10:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.076 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.076 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5EQLimjlSxRd for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF753A6AC5 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 27so980544wfd.31 for ; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 00:10:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Q0TCQcfUOMXzZfhiKAqW9ny/kS6o1u434+/MV+uR3Bw=; b=pm/GOvM8Myp+ypiHQ7Z2AlB++iL77T/76ymUBy5pE54sXG2pZWmy4PmnEbIcF+fOA8 7gWUcNhd8FuIgvN9fiXTE9BT+Ua8OLplxhXaNL/q6UiX4p4TI36Yf6XFUOD1dRKXT5m7 bZCSDjxF5j2H8MCiQmzDqPCftg0A8niN3fB3k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=DWSPP+9AlnIhvQnGZT3+LwRvIuQIoM5WgcNIw92fKOEnFylU5Bg6ufho2lhO0yiaue wWwlMbV/n3lq5QHnRKf3iOrM5AkKi5u1Aa8yEnoTGvCUdufh2f3sNbpIclcgN0M5xUC0 RBmWeh7PMfKRY4YuQO4MwDo937paqZzNraPv8= Received: by 10.142.162.5 with SMTP id k5mr3732726wfe.145.1222931436214; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 00:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.43.21 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810020010r368c8e81r6b8f93be71accf7c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 09:10:36 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: bc97e1a9e90ae7a7 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1046609718==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1046609718== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_89402_2585286.1222931436199" ------=_Part_89402_2585286.1222931436199 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I looked back at the text you had: Requests to assign an additional record of a given type with an existing subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. Here is my proposal based on the discussion. Records are unique by Type and Subtype: the registry MUST not contain two different records that have identical values for both Type and Subtype. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. However, information can be added to an existing record. For example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. Variant subtags that are used with multiple (or no) prefixes must have consistent meaning across those prefixes. Four digit subtags should refer to some specification or change associated with a year for the given prefixes. Other subtags may be associated with an authority for the language, orthography, or transliteration (transcription), such as 'ungegn', 'bgn', or 'gost'. When applied to different prefixes, they would always refer to the same authority. Mark On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:25 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > > > [chair hat on] > > I think I have seen very strong opposition to having multiple > > records with the same variant subtag, for implementation reasons, > > and nobody fighting for multiple records as such. Addison and Mark, > > unless this is already covered in -17, can I ask you to draft some > > language covering this (and only this) point? > > I already drafted it in the editor's copy and just proposed removing said > draft for lack of any consensus. draft-18 on inter-locale has the proposed > text. > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_89402_2585286.1222931436199 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline PGRpdiBkaXI9Imx0ciI+SSBsb29rZWQgYmFjayBhdCB0aGUgdGV4dCB5b3UgaGFkOjxkaXY+PGJy PjwvZGl2PjxkaXY+PHNwYW4gY2xhc3M9IkFwcGxlLXN0eWxlLXNwYW4iIHN0eWxlPSJib3JkZXIt Y29sbGFwc2U6IGNvbGxhcHNlOyAiPiZsdDt0Jmd0O1JlcXVlc3RzIHRvIGFzc2lnbiBhbiBhZGRp dGlvbmFsIHJlY29yZCBvZiBhIGdpdmVuIHR5cGUgd2l0aCBhbiBleGlzdGluZyBzdWJ0YWcgdmFs dWUgTVVTVCBiZSByZWplY3RlZC4gRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHRoZSB2YXJpYW50IHN1YnRhZyAmIzM5 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ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0453A6AD2 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:11:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.056 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.056 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eMAdIQ5tZF1O for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f16.google.com (mail-gx0-f16.google.com [209.85.217.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A480B3A6887 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9so1108703gxk.13 for ; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 00:11:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=qNx3k8bVxXGHUkfEgDwljZfnq55ZT+ZPPadFMT14NoE=; b=afkkbYcU43nyEyW9Mfk1vHU2DH3vvIRhbs6160WkoynkNnuemfMXV2snHlc/5gIhRC tFcm2XiJss9DBsvv6omxIOWZaDKdgujphDQnRB0Tmtz0WNa2iF1MXZmZcySo22j00062 PJS+NsqX+X67iwmReVrPpQ6zVeiVOsSQdWbu4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=qXV5ICMmOx9D7Y6AX2rex7QUxt5tFun4qmBvujglXX1XE6rEUWH6sXShXxgXRS3Kqc x+XC1z0lXJpaVzJ03zUwTY5fQtJMMFB49BauCYvUCecx13q2fk0jnL+9pFSXMRd7YJ2g HNGahlqvhwAykGLFYu0STKWOFu3lh0UWiINlE= Received: by 10.100.142.4 with SMTP id p4mr8768089and.23.1222931463917; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 00:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.194.15 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 09:11:02 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: da14bd9965044016 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1523509754==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1523509754== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_78318_29774432.1222931463891" ------=_Part_78318_29774432.1222931463891 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I looked back at the text you had: Requests to assign an additional record of a given type with an existing subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. Here is my proposal based on the discussion. Records are unique by Type and Subtype: the registry MUST not contain two different records that have identical values for both Type and Subtype. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. However, information can be added to an existing record. For example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. Variant subtags that are used with multiple (or no) prefixes must have consistent meaning across those prefixes. Four digit subtags should refer to some specification or change associated with a year for the given prefixes. Other subtags may be associated with an authority for the language, orthography, or transliteration (transcription), such as 'ungegn', 'bgn', or 'gost'. When applied to different prefixes, they would always refer to the same authority. Mark On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:25 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > > > [chair hat on] > > I think I have seen very strong opposition to having multiple > > records with the same variant subtag, for implementation reasons, > > and nobody fighting for multiple records as such. Addison and Mark, > > unless this is already covered in -17, can I ask you to draft some > > language covering this (and only this) point? > > I already drafted it in the editor's copy and just proposed removing said > draft for lack of any consensus. draft-18 on inter-locale has the proposed > text. > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_78318_29774432.1222931463891 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline PGRpdiBkaXI9Imx0ciI+SSBsb29rZWQgYmFjayBhdCB0aGUgdGV4dCB5b3UgaGFkOjxkaXY+PGJy PjwvZGl2PjxkaXY+PHNwYW4gY2xhc3M9IkFwcGxlLXN0eWxlLXNwYW4iIHN0eWxlPSJib3JkZXIt Y29sbGFwc2U6IGNvbGxhcHNlOyAiPiZsdDt0Jmd0O1JlcXVlc3RzIHRvIGFzc2lnbiBhbiBhZGRp dGlvbmFsIHJlY29yZCBvZiBhIGdpdmVuIHR5cGUgd2l0aCBhbiBleGlzdGluZyBzdWJ0YWcgdmFs dWUgTVVTVCBiZSByZWplY3RlZC4gRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHRoZSB2YXJpYW50IHN1YnRhZyAmIzM5 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ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F8D03A69FB for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:37:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15tcjXVb0mpE for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025933A6831 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-80-178.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.80.178]:32977 helo=wgbgkka02x) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KlIjx-0003bV-8z for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:36:52 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81><48E406F8.1050900@malform.no><6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 09:36:10 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> Thread-Index: AckkXiTRaPUIRBfwRdOZ8gHSO4/7jQAAbZ6Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KlIjx-0003bV-8z. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1KlIjx-0003bV-8z 52b12d8ecccc1bb79b82219a3d2ef50c Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1160124499==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1160124499== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_06E1_01C92472.652C6610" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_06E1_01C92472.652C6610 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I assume "Subtype" should be "Subtag". Also some of the example variant = subtags (with letters) here are shorter than 5 letters/digits. =20 I like the year approach here. Many languages get orthographic reforms, = usually small, issued by a (recognised) authority for the language in = question. This would just be for pure 4-digit variant subtags. =20 Not sure I really like the organisation approach. But I'm not strongly = opposed. Still, does it have to be emphasised as an example (out of only = two approaches, this and year numbers, so emphasised)? =20 /kent k _____ =20 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Mark Davis Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:11 AM To: Phillips, Addison Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags I looked back at the text you had:=20 Requests to assign an additional record of a given type with an = existing subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag = 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of = type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. Here is my proposal based on the discussion. Records are unique by Type and Subtype: the registry MUST not contain = two different records that have identical values for both Type and = Subtype. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given Type = with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant = subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record = of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. However, = information can be added to an existing record. For example, the '1994' = subtag variant record could have the prefix 'fr-CA' added together with = a description of usage for a French Canadian spelling reform associated = with the year 1994. Variant subtags that are used with multiple (or no) prefixes must = have consistent meaning across those prefixes. Four digit subtags should = refer to some specification or change associated with a year for the = given prefixes. Other subtags may be associated with an authority for = the language, orthography, or transliteration (transcription), such as = 'ungegn', 'bgn', or 'gost'. When applied to different prefixes, they = would always refer to the same authority. Mark On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:25 AM, Phillips, Addison = wrote: > > [chair hat on] > I think I have seen very strong opposition to having multiple > records with the same variant subtag, for implementation reasons, > and nobody fighting for multiple records as such. Addison and Mark, > unless this is already covered in -17, can I ask you to draft some > language covering this (and only this) point? I already drafted it in the editor's copy and just proposed removing = said draft for lack of any consensus. draft-18 on inter-locale has the = proposed text. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru ------=_NextPart_000_06E1_01C92472.652C6610 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
I=20 assume "Subtype" should be "Subtag". Also some of the example variant = subtags=20 (with letters) here are shorter than 5 = letters/digits.
 
I like=20 the year approach here. Many languages get orthographic reforms, usually = small,=20 issued by a (recognised) authority for the language in=20 question.
This=20 would just be for pure 4-digit variant subtags.
 
Not=20 sure I really like the organisation approach. But I'm not strongly = opposed.=20 Still, does it have to be emphasised as an example (out of only two=20 approaches,
this=20 and year numbers, so emphasised)?
 
    /kent k

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark = Davis
Sent:=20 Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:11 AM
To: Phillips,=20 Addison
Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug = Ewell
Subject: Re:=20 [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags

I looked back at the text you had:

<t>Requests to assign an = additional=20 record of a given type with an existing subtag value MUST be rejected. = For=20 example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so = adding=20 a second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is=20 prohibited.</t>

Here is my proposal based on the discussion.

<t>Records=20 = are unique by Type and Subtype: the re= gistry MUST not contain two different recor= ds that have identical values for both = ;Type and Subtype. Thus requests to assign&= nbsp;an additional record of a given Type&n= bsp;with an existing Subtag value MUST be&n= bsp;rejected. For example, the variant subtag&nb= sp;'rozaj' already exists in the registry, = so adding a second record of type 'var= iant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited= .=20 However,=20 = information can be added to an existing&nbs= p;record. For example, the=20 '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix 'fr-CA' added = together=20 with a description of usage for a French Canadian spelling reform = associated=20 with the year 1994.</t>

<t>Variant subtags that are used with multiple (or no) = prefixes=20 must have consistent meaning across those prefixes. Four digit subtags = should=20 refer to some specification or change associated with a year for the = given=20 prefixes. Other subtags may be associated with an authority for the = language,=20 orthography, or transliteration (transcription), such as 'ungegn', = 'bgn', or=20 'gost'. When applied to different prefixes, they would always refer to = the=20 same authority.</t>

Mark


On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:25 AM, Phillips, = Addison <addison@amazon.com> = wrote:
>
> [chair hat on]
> I think I = have seen=20 very strong opposition to having multiple
> records with the = same=20 variant subtag, for implementation reasons,
> and nobody = fighting for=20 multiple records as such. Addison and Mark,
> unless this is = already=20 covered in -17, can I ask you to draft some
> language = covering this=20 (and only this) point?

I already drafted it in the = editor's=20 copy and just proposed removing said draft for lack of any = consensus.=20 draft-18 on inter-locale has the proposed text.

Addison
_______________________________________________
Ltru=20 mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
<= /DIV>

<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_06E1_01C92472.652C6610-- --===============1160124499== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1160124499==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 01:18:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BFD3A6B0B; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 01:18:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C53CA3A6B0B for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 01:18:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ljtGG+HZyl5z for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 01:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5EF43A6A9C for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 01:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so164353ywj.49 for ; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 01:18:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=s4QNUvT+QisUb/JrNANG3y9jAIepYjK114hjjAt6vIU=; b=o2pE2jNis6q4bJvvTGk7FVrAZ7ruvjDSSiKfjaz7fQVtPvjOA6Z5JVWAgNsLmGyr1b kaBYxviVGakHP7krGUhx7lI4cgOa9vZ+2QE+aD1uEAGtGAZE7Y+ANE+IVwriwRuKTKrM yTN5RGhaA8OZpKhGyu+mbzi2tS11V+/lLaHTE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=UOVpG5DQUMbwfOE6wOR6MIXvXQvzw/ckoXjAlavnqbiys4sl4jA/nRPf6rKP2eZLmp buJoKc/DrIRhONlZuNoeGhgtnYdupUpe7LkjiPlm2riabvG4G+pN0xyRNDzi2r+YdIp6 n6e0i5k2n+fIGLoAY/if2r0t/QnN2K8cm4wLg= Received: by 10.100.126.19 with SMTP id y19mr8734416anc.151.1222935531573; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 01:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.194.15 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 01:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:18:51 +0200 From: mark@macchiato.com To: "Kent Karlsson" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 527b90fd2b5ab26e Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thanks for the comments. After thinking about it a bit, I made some significant edits, as follows. Records are unique by Type and Subtag: the registry MUST not contain two different records that have identical values for both Type and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. However, information can be added to an existing record. For example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have consistent semantics across those prefixes. Variant subtags MAY indicate an organization (including governments), such as 'ungegn', 'usbgn', or 'cisgost'. When applied to different prefixes, each would consistently refer to a variant as specified by that organization for those prefixes. For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to a transliteration for any given prefix as specified by the United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN). Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated in one of the Descriptions. On 10/2/08, Kent Karlsson wrote: > I assume "Subtype" should be "Subtag". Also some of the example variant > subtags (with letters) here are shorter than 5 letters/digits. > > I like the year approach here. Many languages get orthographic reforms, > usually small, issued by a (recognised) authority for the language in > question. > This would just be for pure 4-digit variant subtags. > > Not sure I really like the organisation approach. But I'm not strongly > opposed. Still, does it have to be emphasised as an example (out of only two > approaches, > this and year numbers, so emphasised)? > > /kent k > > > _____ > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark > Davis > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:11 AM > To: Phillips, Addison > Cc: LTRU Working Group; Doug Ewell > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags > > > I looked back at the text you had: > > Requests to assign an additional record of a given type with an existing > subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' > already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' > with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. > > > Here is my proposal based on the discussion. > > Records are unique by Type and Subtype: the registry MUST not contain two > different records that have identical values for both Type and Subtype. Thus > requests to assign an additional record of a given Type with an existing > Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' > already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' > with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. However, information can be added to > an existing record. For example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have > the prefix 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French > Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. > > Variant subtags that are used with multiple (or no) prefixes must have > consistent meaning across those prefixes. Four digit subtags should refer to > some specification or change associated with a year for the given prefixes. > Other subtags may be associated with an authority for the language, > orthography, or transliteration (transcription), such as 'ungegn', 'bgn', or > 'gost'. When applied to different prefixes, they would always refer to the > same authority. > > Mark > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:25 AM, Phillips, Addison > wrote: > > >> >> [chair hat on] >> I think I have seen very strong opposition to having multiple >> records with the same variant subtag, for implementation reasons, >> and nobody fighting for multiple records as such. Addison and Mark, >> unless this is already covered in -17, can I ask you to draft some >> language covering this (and only this) point? > > > I already drafted it in the editor's copy and just proposed removing said > draft for lack of any consensus. draft-18 on inter-locale has the proposed > text. > > Addison > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > -- Mark _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 04:26:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9C33A6CB8; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 04:26:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA0B3A6CB8 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 04:26:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.307 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.307 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZqHJGjqHc4y7 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 04:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1FE2C3A6CB3 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 04:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16136 messnum 13210601 invoked from network[194.125.172.177/ts12-177.dublin.indigo.ie]); 2 Oct 2008 11:26:21 -0000 Received: from ts12-177.dublin.indigo.ie (194.125.172.177) by mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 16136) with SMTP; 2 Oct 2008 11:26:21 -0000 Message-ID: <48E4AF5B.70305@egt.ie> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:24:11 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Macintosh/20080707) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C598ACC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C598ACC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Cc: LTRU Working Group , ietf-languages@alvestrand.no Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I'd see this particular block of similar tags as rather an advantage in = the context, Addison, than any disadvantage (context being tags = referring to Cornish), as I'd expect actual users to find no difficulty = at all differentiating between them, especially as linguistic reform is = currently a very live topic within a community which, although small, = has had to learn to live with several reforms within a relatively short = space of time. I write this wearing my hat as Advisory Editor, English-Cornish = Dictionary/Gerlyver Sawsnek-Kernowek, Nicholas Williams, Everson Gunn = Teoranta/Agan Tavas 2000 (NB. First edition, which took two years to = compile, during which the last but one reform was still in a state of flux). mg Phillips, Addison: > ... > It's not inconsistent and your position on those subtags is not incoheren= t. My concern with them was merely that a tranche of extremely similar subt= ags might prove confusing and difficult for users to approach, not that the= y were not "unique enough". = > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > = -- = Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, An Charraig Dhubh, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire/Ireland * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 06:19:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C1528C111; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:19:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3C53A6CCD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:19:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gk1OaCU7DaCC for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E923A6CD8 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KlO4u-0003qv-Ao; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:18:48 +0200 Message-ID: <48E4CA38.6050006@malform.no> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:18:48 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C598ACC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C598ACC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison 2008-10-01 17.47: >> I'm not saying year numbers don't ever have their place, but >> it worries me when we expect them to be so common that we are >> thinking about compromising an important property of the >> Registry, uniqueness of subtag values within type, in >> anticipation that there will be tons of them. > = > I don't think the problem will be common. The problem is that > the potential for conflicts is relatively large if years end up > being used commonly, since mostly we'll be registering either > (a) new events that happen typically in the current or a recent > year or (b) standards published in the relatively recent past > fifty years or so (1694acad notwithstanding). I don't think it > is a huge problem, but I think we should foreclose the > possibility of a particular year being given two meanings. For Norwegian Nynorsk, I could meaningfully register at the very = least 3 years. Same for Norwegian Bokm=E5l. And even more if I were = to really register all the revisions. Most modern language norms = are not more than 200 years old, I think. So year numbers for the = last 200 years would be most at risk for being used. There is a "clash" problem in the case of Macrolanguage subtags. = For instance, both Bokm=E5l and Nynorsk was revised in 1917. So if = one wrote "no-1917", then it would not be clear what it meant. = (However, that unclarity allready is built into the 'no' tag.) = Whereas, if I wrote no-1907, then it could only refer to the = Bokm=E5l reform of 1907. (Interesting side effect that variation = tags could make a macrolangauge tag more spesific.) Otherwise, I am not sure what conflict you talk about. Used = correctly, there should not be any conflict (except with = Macrolanguage subtags). Of course, there will be different reforms = linked to the same year, no doubt, if that was what you meant. -- = leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 06:25:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F252B3A69A1; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:25:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE55E3A69A1 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:25:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.323 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.323 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.275, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KcLKyGXsWs3W for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout09.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout09-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A88B3A697D for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9218 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2008 13:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout09-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.17) with ESMTP; 02 Oct 2008 13:25:10 -0000 Message-ID: <3FEC4B39435A43C7B4F8DCF97EF1DCB4@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:25:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TGVpZiBIYWx2YXJkIFNpbGxpIDxsaHMgYXQgbWFsZm9ybSBkb3Qgbm8+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBJIHRo aW5rIE1hcmsgYWN0YWxseSBleHByZXNzZWQgdGhhdCByZWdpc3RlcmluZyAiMjAwMyIgYXMgYSBz dWJ0YWcgCj4gd2l0aCB0aGUgbWVhbmluZyAibGFuZ3VhZ2UgcmVmb3JtIGxpbmtlZCB0byB5ZWFy IDIwMDMiIHdvdWxkIHNhdGlzZnkgCj4gdGhlIHVuaXF1ZW5lc3MgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnQuCj4KPiBG dXJ0aGVyIGRvd24gaW4gdGhpcyBsZXR0ZXIsIHlvdSBzYXkgdGhhdCB5b3UgZGlzYWdyZWUgd2l0 aCBoaW0gKGFuZCAKPiB0aG9zZSBvZiB1cyB3aG8gYWdyZWUgLSBhdCBsZWFzdCBJIGFuZCBNYXJ0 aW4pIGluIHRoaXMuCgpNeSBtYWluIG9iamVjdGlvbnMgYXJlICgxKSB0byBoYXZpbmcgdHdvIHN1 YnRhZ3Mgb2YgdGhlIHNhbWUgdHlwZSB3aXRoIAp0aGUgc2FtZSB2YWx1ZSwgYW5kICgyKSB0byB1 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core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D25843A6CA2 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20114 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2008 13:30:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.33) with ESMTP; 02 Oct 2008 13:30:13 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:30:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1 QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 06:51:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40DC53A6AD0; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:51:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A444A3A6A0C for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:51:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KrF3w6RfIfFX for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB243A6C40 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KlOZZ-0003i7-CY; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:50:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 09:50:29 -0400 To: mark@macchiato.com Message-ID: <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org mark@macchiato.com scripsit: > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have > consistent semantics across those prefixes. I'd say "a single meaning" rather than "consistent semantics". The hypothetical subtag 'western' has consistent semantics (it means "the western dialect of any language") but not a single meaning, for en-US-western has nothing to do with ko-western. -- He made the Legislature meet at one-horse John Cowan tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that cowan@ccil.org hardly nobody could get there and most of http://www.ccil.org/~cowan the leaders would stay home and let him go --H.L. Mencken's to work and do things as he pleased. Declaration of Independence _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 07:23:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01DE3A687B; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:23:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B3E3A687B for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:23:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VD8EiDiGgYEL for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f16.google.com (mail-gx0-f16.google.com [209.85.217.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F413A67E4 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9so1393343gxk.13 for ; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 07:23:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=S1vwYVrBVu10a3CGPotY7A9UcFXofGIq5P5cHOMW0e4=; b=dGIhc1TnYwET679LjBlla3uYUeD0ODK4UhRgya73vrb7aQW7ntXh+H+a/UO1+E3z7O p8W/4f+EJepWuFGRMVBVOqRTjhSygWK1lawA6oWkVE83NdRybrkEc6LuqOsJG3ppswyp xMifomoroveA1Z+n0uqH0j2KqscJx0sKexzPs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=b99WiimNvh6mbjWIxwCEFRVEApiK9vMsxbp9D8nZn8pA9ZQ/SjyI/iD+5QIlaiLD5B qtethguHGbHnLEVV8dV3cCjIBhtq5qk7Q338rXDIhSZtJKpm705oSUnecf9WQnjPG09U U8TlmBKkUvIfhlQIoJY8J9KiHZcXnzyACt8NM= Received: by 10.142.229.5 with SMTP id b5mr3908986wfh.132.1222957402290; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 07:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.43.21 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:23:22 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1166efefd366588e Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0777143775==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0777143775== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3235_24108257.1222957402303" ------=_Part_3235_24108257.1222957402303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That's a good change, thanks. Modified wording below. Records are unique by Type and Subtag: the registry MUST not contain two different records that have identical values for both Type and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. However, information can be added to an existing record. For example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have a single meaning across those prefixes. Variant subtags MAY indicate an organization (including governments), such as 'ungegn', 'usbgn', or 'cisgost'. When applied to different prefixes, each would consistently refer to a variant as specified by that organization for those prefixes. For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to a transliteration for any given prefix as specified by the United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN). Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated in one of the Descriptions. Mark On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 3:50 PM, John Cowan wrote: > mark@macchiato.com scripsit: > > > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have > > consistent semantics across those prefixes. > > I'd say "a single meaning" rather than "consistent semantics". > The hypothetical subtag 'western' has consistent semantics (it means > "the western dialect of any language") but not a single meaning, for > en-US-western has nothing to do with ko-western. > > -- > He made the Legislature meet at one-horse John Cowan > tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that cowan@ccil.org > hardly nobody could get there and most of http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > the leaders would stay home and let him go --H.L. Mencken's > to work and do things as he pleased. Declaration of > Independence > ------=_Part_3235_24108257.1222957402303 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
That's a good change, thanks. Modified wording below.

<t>Records are unique by Type and Subtag: the registry MUST not
contain two different records that have identical values for both Type
and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given
Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the
variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a
second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited.
However, information <i>can</i> be added to an existing record. For
example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix
'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French
Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994.</t>

<t>Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have
a single meaning across those prefixes. Variant subtags MAY
indicate an organization (including governments), such as 'ungegn',
'usbgn', or 'cisgost'. When applied to different prefixes, each would
consistently refer to a variant as specified by that organization for
those prefixes. For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to
a transliteration for any given prefix as specified by the United
Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN).</t>

<t>Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their
meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other
work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the
particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated
in one of the Descriptions.</t>

Mark


On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 3:50 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
mark@macchiato.com scripsit:

> <t>Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have
> consistent semantics across those prefixes.

I'd say "a single meaning" rather than "consistent semantics".
The hypothetical subtag 'western' has consistent semantics (it means
"the western dialect of any language") but not a single meaning, for
en-US-western has nothing to do with ko-western.

--
He made the Legislature meet at one-horse       John Cowan
tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that     cowan@ccil.org
hardly nobody could get there and most of       http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
the leaders would stay home and let him go      --H.L. Mencken's
to work and do things as he pleased.              Declaration of Independence

------=_Part_3235_24108257.1222957402303-- --===============0777143775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0777143775==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 07:30:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4FAD3A6CC5; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:30:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 362883A6CBA for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:30:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.714, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l2iFtvUFgq17 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581243A69E7 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:29:58 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,351,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="55128240" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Oct 2008 14:29:50 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m92ETnX1021238; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:29:49 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:29:49 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , "mark@macchiato.com" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:29:47 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: Ackklhg04x4MhZJdSWymMEM9VTJ/lgAAcqlQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C86D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I agree with John and I do not support Mark's proposal. Mark: consider your own proposal to register 'hpin1958'. Would you be pleased if after you registered: Type:variant Subtag:hpin1958 Description: Hanyu Pinyin romanization of Mandarin Chinese ... somebody came along and added these descriptions to it: Description: Pinyin romanization of Tibetan Description: Tongyong romanization of Chinese ... Or would that be a violation of "consistent semantics"? I think it is too hard to judge. Let's stick with semantic meaning. Mark proposed this text: Records are unique by Type and Subtag: the registry MUST not Ed.> MUST NOT contain two different records that have identical values for both Type and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. AP> I liked my original version better, since it is more succinct. However, information can be added to an existing record. For example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. AP> I don't care for this proposal for the reasons given above. Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have Ed.> MUST have consistent semantics across those prefixes. Variant subtags MAY AP> "MAY" is too strong here. This text is more advisory than normative. I would suggest instead something like: -- Requests for related variants might use a similar subtag format to visually indicate the relationship between them. For example, they might indicate an organization (such as a government or standards body). For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to a transliteration for any given prefix as specified (etc..) -- indicate an organization (including governments), such as 'ungegn', 'usbgn', or 'cisgost'. When applied to different prefixes, each would consistently refer to a variant as specified by that organization for those prefixes. For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to a transliteration for any given prefix as specified by the United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN). AP> Despite my proposal above, I think this is overkill. It suggests that some initial subtag sequences might acquire meaning that must be normatively enforced here and it doesn't solve a problem that is imminent. Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated in one of the Descriptions. AP> I think this is overkill. We don't have any examples of non-year four-digit registrations at present nor do we have to spell out that a year should pertain to some event, I think. The registration process ought to do something useful, such as screen requests for such things. Besides, apparently the current trend is to append four letters of garbage to years :-). Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of John Cowan > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 6:50 AM > To: mark@macchiato.com > Cc: LTRU Working Group; Kent Karlsson > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags > > mark@macchiato.com scripsit: > > > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have > > consistent semantics across those prefixes. > > I'd say "a single meaning" rather than "consistent semantics". > The hypothetical subtag 'western' has consistent semantics (it > means > "the western dialect of any language") but not a single meaning, > for > en-US-western has nothing to do with ko-western. > > -- > He made the Legislature meet at one-horse John Cowan > tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that cowan@ccil.org > hardly nobody could get there and most of > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > the leaders would stay home and let him go --H.L. Mencken's > to work and do things as he pleased. Declaration of > Independence > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 07:34:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF5E3A6960; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25CC13A6960 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:34:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IW5FG+6HK3bv for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4553A685B for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:34:39 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,351,1220227200"; d="scan'208,217";a="116477856" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Oct 2008 14:33:55 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m92EXtBF028586; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:33:55 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:33:55 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , John Cowan Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:33:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: AckkmpPD+3zDYxuWToa5vaDRZo9NlQAAOCyw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness 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(Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1553A67E4 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:47:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bC8LTbvtL0gE for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FB03A697A for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so184554yxg.49 for ; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 07:46:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=kzwTVr7bpQhVxmMq7lj0d5/24Dh7LFZQrgQyY0PTT0c=; b=gen5aBYs5GQxrcUDFqpeGCDaEK5taGqvC9SvmP4u5DwGH5bw/mvhaPXq/gDFRwwcB4 jBNJmK+pHHUlVhGvzcDsrrSH1kgKXhjaq+O2XWdU6bhFXiYQT+byb83MLQmlRKdMART5 U/u0L5CbNITqh8tyxlB7uPhAIZ4UYoM4CMI0U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=jMzUDpLUzzY26sPFXB71moHvkuSs+7mSW/EDAtcIzNiHW16wf6XiFeV7rYV539P6MA TsF0Xjn+HYelqrjqVRtsD+8Wj2qDNg+FELaTLq7yu3o5ZkDEvph805h0pPhSftcgy11E pUWgtYMRpb6Jmru+Yosm53yf6COf+Zrp/gnK0= Received: by 10.142.103.2 with SMTP id a2mr3920916wfc.165.1222958795428; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 07:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.43.21 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810020746x28973d02rabe0d47805e077b6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:46:35 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C86D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C86D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b872368b065af02f Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0891701792==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0891701792== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3526_4848758.1222958795424" ------=_Part_3526_4848758.1222958795424 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mark On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > I agree with John and I do not support Mark's proposal. > > Mark: consider your own proposal to register 'hpin1958'. Would you be > pleased if after you registered: > > Type:variant > Subtag:hpin1958 > Description: Hanyu Pinyin romanization of Mandarin Chinese > > ... somebody came along and added these descriptions to it: > > Description: Pinyin romanization of Tibetan > Description: Tongyong romanization of Chinese > ... > > Or would that be a violation of "consistent semantics"? I think it is too > hard to judge. Let's stick with semantic meaning. As I said (but the threads got pretty convoluted), I could live with 'pinyin' being a broad term IF it were defined as a romanization specified by the Chinese government, and would be happy to change my registration form to reflect that. What I find bad is the various attempts to broaden pinyin without tying it to a particular organization. > > Mark proposed this text: > > Records are unique by Type and Subtag: the registry MUST not > > Ed.> MUST NOT right. > > > contain two different records that have identical values for both Type > and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given > Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the > variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a > second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. > > AP> I liked my original version better, since it is more succinct. I could live with your version. > > > However, information can be added to an existing record. For > example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix > 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French > Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. > > AP> I don't care for this proposal for the reasons given above. I suppose we just disagree. Note that what I am writing is no more than giving an example of what is allowed by the current text and specification. We allow broadening of any term. And I would strongly disagree with any change to the current wording that would disallow that. I don't know why you don't like this. If there were a 1994 spelling reform in France, I see nothing wrong with using fr-1994 - it is perfectly clear what that it means some version of french associated with the year 1994 - and if I want to find out more I look in the registry at the description. A darned sight easier to understand than most of our subtags! For another thing, we can't let any particular language "get dibs" on a year - if we are going to use year numbers, then we have to be able to use them for different languages. > > > > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have > > Ed.> MUST have good > > > consistent semantics across those prefixes. Variant subtags MAY > > AP> "MAY" is too strong here. This text is more advisory than normative. I > would suggest instead something like: > > -- > Requests for related variants might use a similar subtag format to visually > indicate the relationship between them. For example, they might indicate an > organization (such as a government or standards body). For example, 'ungegn' > could be defined as referring to a transliteration for any given prefix as > specified (etc..) This wording doesn't really work for me, but I agree about removing the MAY. Let me try a rewording. > > -- > > indicate an organization (including governments), such as 'ungegn', > 'usbgn', or 'cisgost'. When applied to different prefixes, each would > consistently refer to a variant as specified by that organization for > those prefixes. For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to > a transliteration for any given prefix as specified by the United > Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN). > > AP> Despite my proposal above, I think this is overkill. It suggests that > some initial subtag sequences might acquire meaning that must be normatively > enforced here and it doesn't solve a problem that is imminent. I think it actually is imminent. Pinyin / wadegile are just the tip of an iceberg. We are working hard on romanizations, and there are dozens associated with given organization. I would find it abhorent to artificially distinguish subtags that are perfectly understandable as broad terms. > > > Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their > meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other > work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the > particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated > in one of the Descriptions. > > AP> I think this is overkill. We don't have any examples of non-year > four-digit registrations at present That is why I want to spell out that they should always be used as years, if they are used. > nor do we have to spell out that a year should pertain to some event, I > think. The registration process ought to do something useful, such as screen > requests for such things. Besides, apparently the current trend is to append > four letters of garbage to years :-). No, it is to append four digits of garbage to words. > > > Addison > > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of John Cowan > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 6:50 AM > > To: mark@macchiato.com > > Cc: LTRU Working Group; Kent Karlsson > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags > > > > mark@macchiato.com scripsit: > > > > > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have > > > consistent semantics across those prefixes. > > > > I'd say "a single meaning" rather than "consistent semantics". > > The hypothetical subtag 'western' has consistent semantics (it > > means > > "the western dialect of any language") but not a single meaning, > > for > > en-US-western has nothing to do with ko-western. > > > > -- > > He made the Legislature meet at one-horse John Cowan > > tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that cowan@ccil.org > > hardly nobody could get there and most of > > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > > the leaders would stay home and let him go --H.L. Mencken's > > to work and do things as he pleased. Declaration of > > Independence > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_3526_4848758.1222958795424 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

Mark


On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
I agree with John and I do not support Mark's proposal.

Mark: consider your own proposal to register 'hpin1958'. Would you be pleased if after you registered:

Type:variant
Subtag:hpin1958
Description: Hanyu Pinyin romanization of Mandarin Chinese

... somebody came along and added these descriptions to it:

Description: Pinyin romanization of Tibetan
Description: Tongyong romanization of Chinese
...

Or would that be a violation of "consistent semantics"? I think it is too hard to judge. Let's stick with semantic meaning.

As I said (but the threads got pretty convoluted), I could live with 'pinyin' being a broad term IF it were defined as a romanization specified by the Chinese government, and would be happy to change my registration form to reflect that. What I find bad is the various attempts to broaden pinyin without tying it to a particular organization.



Mark proposed this text:

<t>Records are unique by Type and Subtag: the registry MUST not

Ed.> MUST NOT
right. 


contain two different records that have identical values for both Type
and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given
Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the
variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a
second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited.

AP> I liked my original version better, since it is more succinct.
I could live with your version. 


However, information <i>can</i> be added to an existing record. For
example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix
'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French
Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994.</t>

AP> I don't care for this proposal for the reasons given above.

I suppose we just disagree. Note that what I am writing is no more than giving an example of what is allowed by the current text and specification. We allow broadening of any term. And I would strongly disagree with any change to the current wording that would disallow that.

I don't know why you don't like this. If there were a 1994 spelling reform in France, I see nothing wrong with using fr-1994 - it is perfectly clear what that it means some version of french associated with the year 1994 - and if I want to find out more I look in the registry at the description. A darned sight easier to understand than most of our subtags!

For another thing, we can't let any particular language "get dibs" on a year - if we are going to use year numbers, then we have to be able to use them for different languages.

 



<t>Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have

Ed.> MUST have
good 


consistent semantics across those prefixes. Variant subtags MAY

AP> "MAY" is too strong here. This text is more advisory than normative. I would suggest instead something like:

--
Requests for related variants might use a similar subtag format to visually indicate the relationship between them. For example, they might indicate an organization (such as a government or standards body). For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to a transliteration for any given prefix as specified (etc..)

This wording doesn't really work for me, but I agree about removing the MAY. Let me try a rewording.
 

--

indicate an organization (including governments), such as 'ungegn',
'usbgn', or 'cisgost'. When applied to different prefixes, each would
consistently refer to a variant as specified by that organization for
those prefixes. For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to
a transliteration for any given prefix as specified by the United
Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN).</t>

AP> Despite my proposal above, I think this is overkill. It suggests that some initial subtag sequences might acquire meaning that must be normatively enforced here and it doesn't solve a problem that is imminent.

I think it actually is imminent. Pinyin / wadegile are just the tip of an iceberg. We are working hard on romanizations, and there are dozens associated with given organization. I would find it abhorent to artificially distinguish subtags that are perfectly understandable as broad terms.




<t>Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their
meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other
work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the
particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated
in one of the Descriptions.</t>

AP> I think this is overkill. We don't have any examples of non-year four-digit registrations at present

That is why I want to spell out that they should always be used as years, if they are used.
 
nor do we have to spell out that a year should pertain to some event, I think. The registration process ought to do something useful, such as screen requests for such things. Besides, apparently the current trend is to append four letters of garbage to years :-).

No, it is to append four digits of garbage to words.
 


Addison


Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of John Cowan
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 6:50 AM
> To: mark@macchiato.com
> Cc: LTRU Working Group; Kent Karlsson
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags
>
> mark@macchiato.com scripsit:
>
> > <t>Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have
> > consistent semantics across those prefixes.
>
> I'd say "a single meaning" rather than "consistent semantics".
> The hypothetical subtag 'western' has consistent semantics (it
> means
> "the western dialect of any language") but not a single meaning,
> for
> en-US-western has nothing to do with ko-western.
>
> --
> He made the Legislature meet at one-horse       John Cowan
> tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that     cowan@ccil.org
> hardly nobody could get there and most of
> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> the leaders would stay home and let him go      --H.L. Mencken's
> to work and do things as he pleased.              Declaration of
> Independence
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_3526_4848758.1222958795424-- --===============0891701792== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0891701792==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 07:49:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114323A6A51; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:49:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50EB63A6A51 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:49:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.033 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.033 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WySERWsnet-F for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.246]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D913B3A6960 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d18so112680and.122 for ; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 07:49:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=bOnbNvoIT91AQiJ4lv6kwVaQx06Cg+arJ2ICG/N0Ykc=; b=yGaxoCho+eQwSGwiDOEU3emF1KMmzmZEjUIJsNPqvxQTSEmx2O6rMW4eee3VQafZBd w165htZ4wl2U3+0wOQkPUHzqp6mZ1pBqUW/ps8hlSWt/DOYfoz2J8EcA7y1xK+T0a4bU GKmv6WgfjYXLyS6Hej3/0kZSPAtDh11TWM9q4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ukUX3eHaz5GDGj9R3YJer2sKAxweOnp/Is6j/p2esjRIXOLXyKJiqtL6pgCP3KidPa otKhEWm5mdwqQzTnyu4G30Bbd/nsWax551XvpKWe8Do8Pc3673HtQhC+u4tk5W3Kk5Ls u/a3HkGc8fCNyrUagiHXjBwyspJpeWCYr1l2s= Received: by 10.142.70.16 with SMTP id s16mr3923420wfa.120.1222958974426; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 07:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.43.21 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:49:34 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7cf3951880f4cb4c Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2043993248==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2043993248== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3568_7819819.1222958974422" ------=_Part_3568_7819819.1222958974422 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mark On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > Mark, > > > > That's now contradictory. You can't say: > > > > -- > > However, information can be added to an existing record. For > > example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix > > 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French > > Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. > > -- > > > > And then say: > > > > -- > > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes MUST have > > a single meaning across those prefixes. > But I do think that they do have a single core meaning - a specification or work associated with a year. > -- > > > > Clearly, "French Canadian spelling reform" and "1994 orthography of Resian > Slovenian" are not the same meaning?!? > > > > '1994' is taken. The metaphorical Canadians will have to make due with > something wacky like '1994qc'. > We can't have this situation. Languages can't claim years all for them selves ;-). And yet any 4-digit sequence will be interpreted as a year. If we are not going to give broad meaning to 4 digit sequences as years, then we should just forbid any future registration of them as 4 digit sequences. > > > Addison > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:23 AM > *To:* John Cowan > *Cc:* LTRU Working Group; Kent Karlsson > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags > > > > That's a good change, thanks. Modified wording below. > > > > Records are unique by Type and Subtag: the registry MUST not > contain two different records that have identical values for both Type > and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given > Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the > variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a > second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. > However, information can be added to an existing record. For > example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix > 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French > Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. > > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have > a single meaning across those prefixes. Variant subtags MAY > indicate an organization (including governments), such as 'ungegn', > 'usbgn', or 'cisgost'. When applied to different prefixes, each would > consistently refer to a variant as specified by that organization for > those prefixes. For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to > a transliteration for any given prefix as specified by the United > Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN). > > Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their > meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other > work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the > particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated > in one of the Descriptions. > > > Mark > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 3:50 PM, John Cowan wrote: > > mark@macchiato.com scripsit: > > > > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have > > consistent semantics across those prefixes. > > I'd say "a single meaning" rather than "consistent semantics". > The hypothetical subtag 'western' has consistent semantics (it means > "the western dialect of any language") but not a single meaning, for > en-US-western has nothing to do with ko-western. > > -- > He made the Legislature meet at one-horse John Cowan > tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that cowan@ccil.org > hardly nobody could get there and most of http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > the leaders would stay home and let him go --H.L. Mencken's > to work and do things as he pleased. Declaration of > Independence > > > ------=_Part_3568_7819819.1222958974422 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

Mark


On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

Mark,

 

That's now contradictory. You can't say:

 

--

However, information <i>can</i> be added to an existing record. For

example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix

'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French

Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994.

--

 

And then say:

 

--

Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes MUST have

a single meaning across those prefixes.


But I do think that they do have a single core meaning - a specification or work associated with a year. 

--

 

Clearly, "French Canadian spelling reform" and "1994 orthography of Resian Slovenian" are not the same meaning?!?

 

'1994' is taken. The metaphorical Canadians will have to make due with something wacky like '1994qc'.


We can't have this situation. Languages can't claim years all for them selves ;-). And yet any 4-digit sequence will be interpreted as a year. If we are not going to give broad meaning to 4 digit sequences as years, then we should just forbid any future registration of them as 4 digit sequences.

 

Addison

 

Addison Phillips

Globalization Architect -- Lab126

 

Internationalization is not a feature.

It is an architecture.

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:23 AM
To: John Cowan


Cc: LTRU Working Group; Kent Karlsson
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags

 

That's a good change, thanks. Modified wording below.

 

<t>Records are unique by Type and Subtag: the registry MUST not
contain two different records that have identical values for both Type
and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given
Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the
variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a
second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited.
However, information <i>can</i> be added to an existing record. For
example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix
'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French
Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994.</t>

<t>Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have
a single meaning across those prefixes. Variant subtags MAY
indicate an organization (including governments), such as 'ungegn',
'usbgn', or 'cisgost'. When applied to different prefixes, each would
consistently refer to a variant as specified by that organization for
those prefixes. For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to
a transliteration for any given prefix as specified by the United
Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN).</t>

<t>Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their
meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other
work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the
particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated
in one of the Descriptions.</t>


Mark

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 3:50 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

mark@macchiato.com scripsit:


> <t>Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have
> consistent semantics across those prefixes.

I'd say "a single meaning" rather than "consistent semantics".
The hypothetical subtag 'western' has consistent semantics (it means
"the western dialect of any language") but not a single meaning, for
en-US-western has nothing to do with ko-western.

--
He made the Legislature meet at one-horse       John Cowan
tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that     cowan@ccil.org
hardly nobody could get there and most of       http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
the leaders would stay home and let him go      --H.L. Mencken's
to work and do things as he pleased.              Declaration of Independence

 


------=_Part_3568_7819819.1222958974422-- --===============2043993248== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2043993248==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 08:04:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744FB3A69CD; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:04:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C1B3A69CD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:04:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pg7TGX1mkVpo for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEC03A67E4 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 936751C0208; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:39:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE3D1C006D; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:39:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837F17B006C; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:39:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:39:31 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20081002143931.GA20792@nic.fr> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 09:22:02AM -0600, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 5 lines which said: > I believe this draft is ready for WG Last Call. I've updated my > page at http://www.ewellic.org/rfc4645bis.html I ran it through my implementation and I was not able to find any mistake. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 08:10:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA2F3A69CD; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:10:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FAA83A6945 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:10:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.478 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.478 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.120, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TKfn-LaA76Qk for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED8E03A69CD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:10:02 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,351,1220227200"; d="scan'208,217";a="116494259" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Oct 2008 15:09:45 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m92F9iqK001687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:09:44 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:09:44 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:09:41 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: Ackkna6EK1ryWOb1RaCgqB0Eej1Y7QAAvaNw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C8C9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C86D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020746x28973d02rabe0d47805e077b6@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20810020746x28973d02rabe0d47805e077b6@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=w5fzlT9qjJAG0L/Ac2NLwTwPTeBaSQrMjxqElRKdB3w=; b=TljaiuX4GG2MhtrB+iM2MznxIp6R6BaOMQ7+yIKuZS563qpliBtJ178VyZa+VwXIXr ZqwJiPnzzzOGrnO2MU/jokt2CX/tbcMbCFnZsgq0YtoIaX8CTvr62B9hDwGogy4soqjX BWTFoMMA2TeHMNP5ZIb+x7gjdlJV7xif9cQwQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=KQXuGhyWUJuWpcCzKSD6x9T3ogfdK5BSsGsbKwOikjcnsiNZAXci4R6J5hSxzHMFiN t4wXs8fCo6bU1q1Jmo2Tx0gl+nTCbviZuOYJFGmyRtTK2sktj340yIZqNWs+XdPbhKTR cr3Ovsu6p0SdlkywWd91dmRqPieB0jerCfhFU= Received: by 10.142.222.21 with SMTP id u21mr3919409wfg.244.1222960408320; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.43.21 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810020813s590582bjbe1307a8bfe42635@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 17:13:28 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6a6103b44c01bb4b Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1683643510==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1683643510== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3811_11535328.1222960408320" ------=_Part_3811_11535328.1222960408320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I tried to go through and account for Addisons comments, and have the following. (Also at http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfqr8rd5_216dbfzfkf5, so that it is easier to update.) I left in place two options for how to deal with years. I'd prefer A, but could live with B. Records MUST be unique by Type and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes MUST have a single core meaning across those prefixes. Such a core meaning may be narrow, or may be broad. For example, it could refer to an organization (including governments), and mean a variant as specified by that organization for relevant prefixes. Thus 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to a romanization for any given prefix as specified by the United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN), and be thus productively used with 'ru-Latn', 'hi-Latn', 'zh-Latn', and others. Option A. Four digit subtags are specially reserved for indicating a year. Their meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated in one of the Descriptions. For example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. Option B. 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Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1683643510==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 08:17:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B9A3A69F0; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:17:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848DA3A6946 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:17:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.974 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.974 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.376, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CLp0LlRWAidi for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA703A6881 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:17:26 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,351,1220227200"; d="scan'208,217";a="135310282" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Oct 2008 15:17:14 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m92FHD3C015011 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:17:14 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:17:13 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:16:32 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:17:10 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: AckknhlQExWA0/chTQyBENs5hWQ7JQAAtRMA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C8DE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Karlsson , Kent@core3.amsl.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0227607373==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0227607373== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C8DEEXSEA5Dantama_" --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C8DEEXSEA5Dantama_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094D03A67E4; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:30:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429283A67E4 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:30:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJKlBG2+hABx for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.188]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1265F3A67D2 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m7so347728rnd.18 for ; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:28:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=JBn7RIzIhKSFc+vcdeJJQgTqQrhFaZ5PvE6Hu7qVs78=; b=ZzWpa+mZiDUWnSrRVK3WimoxI97GlXZPFYyX0+1/D3UzqDoOeqUTlwuHT7BQSkXg7Y uPA4TRjHBv1nvFzKSNy5lIjlbQS17I9pnetd/UkXWTUzgHpK04/w6ToBpDTDlN8BkD/7 xThY9bKGTO4H9xRcZvPaaXi62wAyd6eS6okgc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=SXLmuS1qkYWqYNiZ2X7jafCu7rUhN+gE4+NLiRLqYGoqOtZx3XSez/9aDJjohwOM6w a0jaPzaJ8mw8Aj+w9FcHKcU38AOk137PI336nxaJhAAb6tghpT54vzBZwgAj3Jm797uz kzmX8csy6xSgZ9JJ7M6QeEDsYTrSVI5u/O8Mw= Received: by 10.142.194.1 with SMTP id r1mr3936148wff.192.1222961322410; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.43.21 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810020828x22249629y8f3f2208f0a9ba88@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 17:28:42 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C8C9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C86D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020746x28973d02rabe0d47805e077b6@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C8C9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: e4f9d39766d6021d Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0166055947==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0166055947== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4166_31945248.1222961322392" ------=_Part_4166_31945248.1222961322392 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Actually no. What we want to do is register a small number of variant tags that can be productively combined. For example, one subtag 'ungegn' applies to some 47 languages that they have romanizations for. Registering each one of these would be, of course, a nightmare, when a single variant tag would suffice. And I see no reason why 'ungegn' would be a problematic registration, and somehow require an extension. It is just a way to express an orthography, and we have many of those already. I'm just saying that we could provide some guidance in the wording so that we don't get into interminable, unproductive, case-by-case, brou-hahs in the languages group. Mark On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > You're planning to register "dozens" of romanizations? > > > > I liked the idea of an extension for transcriptions much more than using > variants. If it's just a few transcriptions, that's one thing. But we could > fill the registry with various romanization schemes (and then there are > other to-non-Latin script transliterations to consider). Ick. > > > > Addison > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:47 AM > *To:* Phillips, Addison > *Cc:* John Cowan; LTRU Working Group; Kent Karlsson > > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags > > > > > Mark > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Phillips, Addison > wrote: > > I agree with John and I do not support Mark's proposal. > > Mark: consider your own proposal to register 'hpin1958'. Would you be > pleased if after you registered: > > Type:variant > Subtag:hpin1958 > Description: Hanyu Pinyin romanization of Mandarin Chinese > > ... somebody came along and added these descriptions to it: > > Description: Pinyin romanization of Tibetan > Description: Tongyong romanization of Chinese > ... > > Or would that be a violation of "consistent semantics"? I think it is too > hard to judge. Let's stick with semantic meaning. > > > > As I said (but the threads got pretty convoluted), I could live with > 'pinyin' being a broad term IF it were defined as a romanization specified > by the Chinese government, and would be happy to change my registration form > to reflect that. What I find bad is the various attempts to broaden pinyin > without tying it to a particular organization. > > > > > > Mark proposed this text: > > > Records are unique by Type and Subtag: the registry MUST not > > Ed.> MUST NOT > > right. > > > > > contain two different records that have identical values for both Type > and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given > Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the > variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a > second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. > > AP> I liked my original version better, since it is more succinct. > > I could live with your version. > > > > > However, information can be added to an existing record. For > example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix > 'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French > Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994. > > AP> I don't care for this proposal for the reasons given above. > > > > I suppose we just disagree. Note that what I am writing is no more than > giving an example of what is allowed by the current text and specification. > We allow broadening of any term. And I would strongly disagree with any > change to the current wording that would disallow that. > > > > I don't know why you don't like this. If there were a 1994 spelling reform > in France, I see nothing wrong with using fr-1994 - it is perfectly clear > what that it means some version of french associated with the year 1994 - > and if I want to find out more I look in the registry at the description. A > darned sight easier to understand than most of our subtags! > > > > For another thing, we can't let any particular language "get dibs" on a > year - if we are going to use year numbers, then we have to be able to use > them for different languages. > > > > > > > > > > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have > > Ed.> MUST have > > good > > > > consistent semantics across those prefixes. Variant subtags MAY > > AP> "MAY" is too strong here. This text is more advisory than normative. I > would suggest instead something like: > > -- > Requests for related variants might use a similar subtag format to visually > indicate the relationship between them. For example, they might indicate an > organization (such as a government or standards body). For example, 'ungegn' > could be defined as referring to a transliteration for any given prefix as > specified (etc..) > > > > This wording doesn't really work for me, but I agree about removing the > MAY. Let me try a rewording. > > > > > -- > > > indicate an organization (including governments), such as 'ungegn', > 'usbgn', or 'cisgost'. When applied to different prefixes, each would > consistently refer to a variant as specified by that organization for > those prefixes. For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to > a transliteration for any given prefix as specified by the United > Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN). > > AP> Despite my proposal above, I think this is overkill. It suggests that > some initial subtag sequences might acquire meaning that must be normatively > enforced here and it doesn't solve a problem that is imminent. > > > > I think it actually is imminent. Pinyin / wadegile are just the tip of an > iceberg. We are working hard on romanizations, and there are dozens > associated with given organization. I would find it abhorent to artificially > distinguish subtags that are perfectly understandable as broad terms. > > > > > > > > Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their > meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other > work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the > particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated > in one of the Descriptions. > > AP> I think this is overkill. We don't have any examples of non-year > four-digit registrations at present > > > > That is why I want to spell out that they should always be used as years, > if they are used. > > > > nor do we have to spell out that a year should pertain to some event, I > think. The registration process ought to do something useful, such as screen > requests for such things. Besides, apparently the current trend is to append > four letters of garbage to years :-). > > > > No, it is to append four digits of garbage to words. > > > > > > Addison > > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > > Behalf Of John Cowan > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 6:50 AM > > To: mark@macchiato.com > > Cc: LTRU Working Group; Kent Karlsson > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags > > > > > mark@macchiato.com scripsit: > > > > > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have > > > consistent semantics across those prefixes. > > > > I'd say "a single meaning" rather than "consistent semantics". > > The hypothetical subtag 'western' has consistent semantics (it > > means > > "the western dialect of any language") but not a single meaning, > > for > > en-US-western has nothing to do with ko-western. > > > > -- > > He made the Legislature meet at one-horse John Cowan > > tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that cowan@ccil.org > > hardly nobody could get there and most of > > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > > the leaders would stay home and let him go --H.L. Mencken's > > to work and do things as he pleased. Declaration of > > Independence > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > ------=_Part_4166_31945248.1222961322392 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Actually no. What we want to do is register a small number of variant tags that can be productively combined. For example, one subtag 'ungegn' applies to some 47 languages that they have romanizations for. Registering each one of these would be, of course, a nightmare, when a single variant tag would suffice.

And I see no reason why 'ungegn' would be a problematic registration, and somehow require an extension. It is just a way to express an orthography, and we have many of those already. I'm just saying that we could provide some guidance in the wording so that we don't get into interminable, unproductive, case-by-case, brou-hahs in the languages group.

Mark


On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

You're planning to register "dozens" of romanizations?

 

I liked the idea of an extension for transcriptions much more than using variants. If it's just a few transcriptions, that's one thing. But we could fill the registry with various romanization schemes (and then there are other to-non-Latin script transliterations to consider). Ick.

 

Addison

 

Addison Phillips

Globalization Architect -- Lab126

 

Internationalization is not a feature.

It is an architecture.

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:47 AM
To: Phillips, Addison
Cc: John Cowan; LTRU Working Group; Kent Karlsson


Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags

 


Mark

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

I agree with John and I do not support Mark's proposal.

Mark: consider your own proposal to register 'hpin1958'. Would you be pleased if after you registered:

Type:variant
Subtag:hpin1958
Description: Hanyu Pinyin romanization of Mandarin Chinese

... somebody came along and added these descriptions to it:

Description: Pinyin romanization of Tibetan
Description: Tongyong romanization of Chinese
...

Or would that be a violation of "consistent semantics"? I think it is too hard to judge. Let's stick with semantic meaning.

 

As I said (but the threads got pretty convoluted), I could live with 'pinyin' being a broad term IF it were defined as a romanization specified by the Chinese government, and would be happy to change my registration form to reflect that. What I find bad is the various attempts to broaden pinyin without tying it to a particular organization.

 



Mark proposed this text:


<t>Records are unique by Type and Subtag: the registry MUST not

Ed.> MUST NOT

right. 

 


contain two different records that have identical values for both Type
and Subtag. Thus requests to assign an additional record of a given
Type with an existing Subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the
variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a
second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited.

AP> I liked my original version better, since it is more succinct.

I could live with your version. 

 


However, information <i>can</i> be added to an existing record. For
example, the '1994' subtag variant record could have the prefix
'fr-CA' added together with a description of usage for a French
Canadian spelling reform associated with the year 1994.</t>

AP> I don't care for this proposal for the reasons given above.

 

I suppose we just disagree. Note that what I am writing is no more than giving an example of what is allowed by the current text and specification. We allow broadening of any term. And I would strongly disagree with any change to the current wording that would disallow that.

 

I don't know why you don't like this. If there were a 1994 spelling reform in France, I see nothing wrong with using fr-1994 - it is perfectly clear what that it means some version of french associated with the year 1994 - and if I want to find out more I look in the registry at the description. A darned sight easier to understand than most of our subtags!

 

For another thing, we can't let any particular language "get dibs" on a year - if we are going to use year numbers, then we have to be able to use them for different languages.

 

 

 



<t>Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have

Ed.> MUST have

good 



consistent semantics across those prefixes. Variant subtags MAY

AP> "MAY" is too strong here. This text is more advisory than normative. I would suggest instead something like:

--
Requests for related variants might use a similar subtag format to visually indicate the relationship between them. For example, they might indicate an organization (such as a government or standards body). For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to a transliteration for any given prefix as specified (etc..)

 

This wording doesn't really work for me, but I agree about removing the MAY. Let me try a rewording.

 


--


indicate an organization (including governments), such as 'ungegn',
'usbgn', or 'cisgost'. When applied to different prefixes, each would
consistently refer to a variant as specified by that organization for
those prefixes. For example, 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to
a transliteration for any given prefix as specified by the United
Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN).</t>

AP> Despite my proposal above, I think this is overkill. It suggests that some initial subtag sequences might acquire meaning that must be normatively enforced here and it doesn't solve a problem that is imminent.

 

I think it actually is imminent. Pinyin / wadegile are just the tip of an iceberg. We are working hard on romanizations, and there are dozens associated with given organization. I would find it abhorent to artificially distinguish subtags that are perfectly understandable as broad terms.

 

 



<t>Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their
meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other
work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the
particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated
in one of the Descriptions.</t>

AP> I think this is overkill. We don't have any examples of non-year four-digit registrations at present

 

That is why I want to spell out that they should always be used as years, if they are used.

 

nor do we have to spell out that a year should pertain to some event, I think. The registration process ought to do something useful, such as screen requests for such things. Besides, apparently the current trend is to append four letters of garbage to years :-).

 

No, it is to append four digits of garbage to words.

 



Addison


Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On

> Behalf Of John Cowan
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 6:50 AM
> To: mark@macchiato.com
> Cc: LTRU Working Group; Kent Karlsson
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags
>

> mark@macchiato.com scripsit:
>
> > <t>Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes must have
> > consistent semantics across those prefixes.
>
> I'd say "a single meaning" rather than "consistent semantics".
> The hypothetical subtag 'western' has consistent semantics (it
> means
> "the western dialect of any language") but not a single meaning,
> for
> en-US-western has nothing to do with ko-western.
>
> --
> He made the Legislature meet at one-horse       John Cowan
> tank-towns out in the alfalfa belt, so that     cowan@ccil.org
> hardly nobody could get there and most of
> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> the leaders would stay home and let him go      --H.L. Mencken's
> to work and do things as he pleased.              Declaration of
> Independence

> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

 


------=_Part_4166_31945248.1222961322392-- --===============0166055947== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0166055947==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 08:49:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28CED28C243; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C8328C243 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:49:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.932 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GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:49:25 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:49:24 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: Ackko4/VV7LSNguuRoWOPP32yk9K6wAAmiDA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C940@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C86D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020746x28973d02rabe0d47805e077b6@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C8C9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020828x22249629y8f3f2208f0a9ba88@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: 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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0781159498==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 08:50:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD853A697A; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:50:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E824A3A697A for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:50:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P5WEKKCF7MNw for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097C33A67A8 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:50:48 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,351,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="55171918" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Oct 2008 15:50:57 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m92Forxv014178 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:50:55 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:50:50 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Doug Ewell Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:50:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06 Thread-Index: AckkoEWz6zts43suQXSv+1TdZXPFjAABjWag Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C948@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20081002143931.GA20792@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20081002143931.GA20792@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org My implementation is less complete that Stephane's, but the record-jar parser ran cleanly and the unit tests all ran, FWIW. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:40 AM > To: Doug Ewell > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06 > > On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 09:22:02AM -0600, > Doug Ewell wrote > a message of 5 lines which said: > > > I believe this draft is ready for WG Last Call. I've updated my > > page at http://www.ewellic.org/rfc4645bis.html > > I ran it through my implementation and I was not able to find any > mistake. > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 08:55:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392793A67B5; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:55:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B2A3A67B5 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:55:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o2z-GWPOWNjG for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20913A67A8 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KlQWE-0001Jm-NB; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 17:55:10 +0200 Message-ID: <48E4EEDE.40402@malform.no> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 17:55:10 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst 2008-10-02 03.00: > At 08:25 08/10/02, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: [...] >> While OTOH, using year for language reforms, is very >> inviting. It could encourage registration. Should that be >> avoided? > > This brings up the general issue of how we might be able to > shorten discussions about registrations with clearer > guidelines. If you have any ideas on this, please tell us. For this to work, then one must have the idea of universiality in mind during the registration process. A very basic thing would be to create a prototypical text for use with "language reform subtags". For example Offical or recognised language reform. Then, if during the registration process, one see that the seeked variant registration meets the definition of "recognised language reform", then the registration should include that text. The next step is to see if it also is possible to register a universal subtag - that is: A year subtag. If the answer yes, then one either registers a new year or picks an allready registered one. If the answer is no, then one creates a new non-year subtag instead. ISSUES: 1) Non-AD years: How about years from other eras? E.g. how about a year from the Islamic era for a possible reform of an Arabic language/dialect? I think in principle this should be OK. 2) I guess one should followthe pattern of the October revolution (which occurred in November, according to our Gregorian calendar). That is: One should pick the year associated wit the reform, and not the "correct", Gregorian year. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 10:37:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A353A6A0C; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:37:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C29F3A6B04 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:37:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.930, BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hiah4YKwmn97 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 471903A6AD6 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:37:12 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=uHN1CLnO71kARxmYHqRGbKXLdC6EGiy3rDi2clfWKzgyD4c1zl8/IVGotJlcQYv+; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.80.164] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KlS6q-0000Be-Sy for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:37:05 -0400 Message-ID: <008e01c924b5$8ae1bca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81><48E406F8.1050900@malform.no><6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <48E4EEDE.40402@malform.no> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:37:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4d5f32e5eb52b74d82660c3dc9237504a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.80.164 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... I'm deeply concerned that this thread is leading to a seriously over-specified, over-engineered solution. There are several different concerns that folks appear to be trying to address, and I'm afraid that the net effect of the proposals might be worse than the envisioned problems. (1) making "institution" mnemonics part of the formal structure logically leads to the conclusion that there should be a registry of institutions. I really don't want to go there! (2) the "same meaning" vs "same semantics" debate gets to the heart of why I so strongly opposed using the same variant tag for the Hanyu Pinyin orthography of Mandarin and a pinyin-like way of writing Tibetan. Our job is to define procedures to keep the registry running smoothly so that language tagging needs can be met. How does each interpretation effect the operation of the review process and registry? How would each impact the developer communities of products that employ language tags? Would either approach make any difference to the people using those languages? (3) With respect to the "year" business, at some point we have to stop gilding this lily with more and more advice and recognize that as more and more variant subtags are registered, it will become increasingly likely that the character string used for the variant will end up having little or no mnemonic value. Tough. It's unrealistic at this late stage in the process to come up with an architecture for the construction of variant subtags. Doing so will only increases the amount of time spent arguing about the "right" string to use for a particular variant. THEY ARE JUST SUBTAGS, and we should *NOT* do anything to foster the perception that they are anything more. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 10:58:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4400A28C116; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:58:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA90A3A6AAE for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:58:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IKgigEjNlZ82 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03053A6816 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KlSRS-0003lN-1o; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 19:58:22 +0200 Message-ID: <48E50BBD.8050501@malform.no> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 19:58:21 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020813s590582bjbe1307a8bfe42635@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20810020813s590582bjbe1307a8bfe42635@mail.gmail.com> Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mark Davis 2008-10-02 17.13: > I tried to go through and account for Addisons comments, [ snip ] > Variant subtags that are used with multiple prefixes MUST have a > single core meaning across those prefixes. Such a core meaning may be > narrow, or may be broad. For example, it could refer to an > organization (including governments), and mean a variant as specified > by that organization for relevant prefixes. > Thus > 'ungegn' could be defined as referring to a romanization for any given > prefix as specified by the United Nations Group of Experts on > Geographical Names (UNGEGN), and be thus productively used with > 'ru-Latn', > 'hi-Latn', 'zh-Latn', and others. You here use the word "romanization" - aka latinisation - instead of transcription. Can we rule out that UNGEGN will not specify e.g. Cyrillic transcriptions? (But if they should add Cyrillic transcriptions, then one could just add e.g. "en-Cyrl" to the list of prefixes.) And what about "be-ungegn", which you in fact used as example in one of your previous messages? Also see my note about "supress-script" for variant tags below. > Option A. > > Four digit subtags are specially reserved for indicating a year. > Their meaning is in reference to some significant specification or > other work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: > the particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly > indicated in one of the Descriptions. For example, the '1994' subtag > variant record could have the prefix 'fr-CA' added together with a > description of usage for a French Canadian spelling reform associated > with the year 1994. Good. ISSUE: You take for granted that it is meant "fr-CA-latn-1994". I would propose that variant subtag registrations should always be very spesific about which Region and Script they are valid for. For instance, the current registration of "1996" does not specify that it is a "de-DE" related norm. As if "de-CH-1996" would also be correct. So, for example, for the subtag "1996", I propose that it should say that the prefix is not "de" but "de-DE-Latn": Type: variant Subtag: 1996 Description: Offical or recognised language reform associated with year 1996. Prefix: de-DE-Latn Prefix: uz-UZ-Latn Prefix: be-Latn-ungegn The taggers would then have to know the Suppress-Script rules in order to understand that in real life tagging, they ought to write "de-DE-1996" and not "de-DE-Latn-1996". And they would also have to know the rules in order to know that they can/should/could also often drop "DE" and just write "de-1996". Just because a language subtag has (or hasn't) a Suppress-Script field, does not necessarily imply that the variant subtag has the same - or the same lack of - script association. Therefore I think that variant registration should be "hypercorrect" when they specify which Prefix the variant can be used with. But leave it to the taggers to drop unnecessary tags. If one cannot use the Prefix field to do this, then one should invent a new field for this particular purpose. Perhaps a Relates-to field. > Option B. > > Additional four digit variant subtags MUST NOT be registered. It would be hard to live with Option B. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 12:31:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC7B28C27F; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:31:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8509E3A67DB for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:31:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lEYKXbNSDkmg for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1888728C265 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KlTtY-0001Ky-Oy; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:31:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:31:28 -0400 To: Leif Halvard Silli Message-ID: <20081002193128.GI10223@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020813s590582bjbe1307a8bfe42635@mail.gmail.com> <48E50BBD.8050501@malform.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48E50BBD.8050501@malform.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TGVpZiBIYWx2YXJkIFNpbGxpIHNjcmlwc2l0OgoKPiBGb3IgaW5zdGFuY2UsIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50 IHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiBvZiAiMTk5NiIgZG9lcyBub3Qgc3BlY2lmeSB0aGF0Cj4gaXQgaXMgYSAi ZGUtREUiIHJlbGF0ZWQgbm9ybS4gQXMgaWYgImRlLUNILTE5OTYiIHdvdWxkIGFsc28gYmUgY29y cmVjdC4KCkl0IHdvdWxkIGJlLiAgVGhlIDE5OTYgcmVmb3JtcyB3ZXJlIGFkb3B0ZWQgZm9yIGRl LURFLCBkZS1BVCwgZGUtTEksCmFuZCBpbiBtb2RpZmllZCBmb3JtIChubyDvv70pIGZvciBkZS1D SC4KCi0tIApKb2huIENvd2FuICAgIGh0dHA6Ly9jY2lsLm9yZy9+Y293YW4gIGNvd2FuQGNjaWwu b3JnCidUaXMgdGhlIExpbnV4IHJlYmVsbGlvbiAvIExldCBjb2RlcnMgdGFrZSB0aGVpciBwbGFj ZSwKVGhlIExpbnV4LW5hdGlvbmFsZSAvIFNoYWxsIE1pY3Jvc29mdCBvdXRwYWNlLApXZSBjYW4g d3JpdGUgYmV0dGVyIHByb2dyYW1zIC8gT3VyIENQVXMgd29uJ3Qgc3RhbGwsClNvIHJhaXNlIHRo ZSBwZW5ndWluIGJhbm5lciBvZiAvIFRoZSBMaW51eC1uYXRpb25hbGUuICAtLUdyZWcgQmFrZXIK X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 12:48:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4752728C268; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:48:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD11728C26C for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:48:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7GpT-Ld73adV for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF373A67AD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KlU9l-0003j3-PB; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:48:13 +0200 Message-ID: <48E5257C.3020502@malform.no> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:48:12 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020813s590582bjbe1307a8bfe42635@mail.gmail.com> <48E50BBD.8050501@malform.no> <20081002193128.GI10223@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081002193128.GI10223@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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YXJkIHNpbGxpCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f Ckx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 12:52:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810B428C277; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:52:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF2E28C26C for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:52:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, 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b=HgvJe6komHXr98GZ2z8DtRIyecpTvG40yFDZCxEt13FCwsoHb7B6/zvTGzE51HshUU ngGq4akInEKwlmSNl1ZHLyGW4H2C96Ck2AfMgxb+o2x1eNamGo9sWEkwPoazRYQ1ljTK OBNehzj/vL2KnEUl7SCLpwPt0Klk7MZj91TJw= Received: by 10.140.132.8 with SMTP id f8mr28017rvd.198.1222977139178; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.163.15 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <41a006820810021252o72ea9feajd8e6ba6832623b02@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 21:52:19 +0200 From: "Gerard Meijssen" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1841570565==" 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--===============1841570565==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 12:57:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7DC93A68CC; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:57:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8516D3A68CC for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:57:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cFanZByU3lWx for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15B33A67AD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KlUIP-00049V-SY; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:57:09 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:57:09 -0400 To: Gerard Meijssen Message-ID: <20081002195709.GJ10223@mercury.ccil.org> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <41a006820810021252o72ea9feajd8e6ba6832623b02@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41a006820810021252o72ea9feajd8e6ba6832623b02@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Gerard Meijssen scripsit: > I am considereing to request subtags for the Dutch language that reflect the > different versions of the orthography as published in the "Groene boekje" a > new version appears on average every 10 years. The last one was the one for > 2006 and it replaced the 1996 orthography. By all means, but take it to ietf-languages@iana.org; it's off-topic here. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Most people are much more ignorant about language than they are about [other subjects], but they reckon that because they can talk and read and write, their opinions about talking and reading and writing are as well informed as anybody's. And since I have DNA, I'm entitled to carry on at length about genetics without bothering to learn anything about it. Not. --Mark Liberman _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 13:11:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 756933A6953; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444313A69CA for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:11:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X5FQO7BzXfO9 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WA4EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (outbound-wa4.frontbridge.com [216.32.181.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D673A6869 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail195-wa4-R.bigfish.com (10.8.14.239) by WA4EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (10.8.40.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:11:45 +0000 Received: from mail195-wa4 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail195-wa4-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC0B770A2D; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:11:45 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-58(zz2e57K98dR4015M936fO9371Pzzzz186M1033ILz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 X-FB-SS: 5,5, Received: by mail195-wa4 (MessageSwitch) id 1222978302310791_16335; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:11:42 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (mail8.fw-bc.sony.com [160.33.98.75]) by mail195-wa4.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B24C100005A; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:11:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m92KBeHc007782; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:11:41 GMT Received: from ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com (ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.78]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m92KBeY1000380; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:11:40 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.72]) by ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.78]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:11:40 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: Gerard Meijssen Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:11:38 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: AckkyIG3i8u5M+TQS06mGvYJoz9oQwAAnn+g Message-ID: References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <41a006820810021252o72ea9feajd8e6ba6832623b02@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <41a006820810021252o72ea9feajd8e6ba6832623b02@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SEL-encryption-scan: scanned Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0756000088==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0756000088== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E19FDBD7A3A7F04788F00E90915BD36C18BA419963USSDIXMSG20sp_" --_000_E19FDBD7A3A7F04788F00E90915BD36C18BA419963USSDIXMSG20sp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RG8geW91IGhhdmUgYW55IHJlYWwtbGlmZSBuZWVkIGZvciB0aGVzZSBkaXN0aW5jdGlvbnMgaW4g RHV0Y2ggb3IgaXMgdGhpcyBwdXJlbHkgYW4gYWNhZGVtaWMgcmVxdWVzdD8NCg0KS2FyZW4gQnJv b21lDQoNCkZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0Bp 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2008 20:13:00 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.72]) by ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.78]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:13:00 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: "Broome, Karen" , Gerard Meijssen Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:12:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: AckkyIG3i8u5M+TQS06mGvYJoz9oQwAAnn+gAAAL4QA= Message-ID: References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <41a006820810021252o72ea9feajd8e6ba6832623b02@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SEL-encryption-scan: scanned Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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L2Rpdj4NCg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KDQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_E19FDBD7A3A7F04788F00E90915BD36C18BA419967USSDIXMSG20sp_-- --===============1094914192== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1094914192==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 14:19:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A5F3A68AB; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:19:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141363A6879 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:19:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO 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ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 17:19:49 -0400 Message-ID: <003101c924d4$a7737c40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <41a006820810021252o72ea9feajd8e6ba6832623b02@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:20:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e40808e846b3c6b260ad9c95d9ef0a6dfb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.80.164 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As co-chair... > From: "Gerard Meijssen" > To: "Doug Ewell" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 12:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags > > Hoi. > I am considereing to request subtags for the Dutch language that reflect the > different versions of the orthography as published in the "Groene boekje" a > new version appears on average every 10 years. The last one was the one for > 2006 and it replaced the 1996 orthography. > > What i would like to know is what code would be appropriate? To make it > more interesting, there is also a "Witte boekje" it published a competing > orthography for the Dutch language and was also published in 2006 (for the > first time). As far as I am concerned any code would do, my personal > preference is a code that has no meaning in and of itself. ... While, as others have pointed out, how Dutch orthographic variants should be registered is off-topic for this list, the technical point that Gerard raises, that there may be competing orthographic reforms published in the same year, as evidenced by the case of Dutch, *is* germane to this thread. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 14:40:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C613A687A; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:40:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365333A69A1 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:40:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TzknTHsS7Xho for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD573A6879 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KlVuN-0002eP-5Y; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:40:27 +0200 Message-ID: <48E53FCA.80902@malform.no> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:40:26 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <41a006820810021252o72ea9feajd8e6ba6832623b02@mail.gmail.com> <003101c924d4$a7737c40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <003101c924d4$a7737c40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn 2008-10-02 23.20: > Hi - > > As co-chair... ( snipped info about Green/White book standards of 2006 for Dutch ) > While, as others have pointed out, how Dutch orthographic variants should > be registered is off-topic for this list, the technical point that Gerard > raises, that there may be competing orthographic reforms published in the > same year, as evidenced by the case of Dutch, *is* germane to this thread. The question is if such clashes is a valid point against reserving years for such registrations. I think not. In this case, one book would have to have the "2006" and the other e.g. "2006w" or "2006g" - unless they both would like to avoid the bare "2006". -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 14:57:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94CB13A68D6; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:57:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC903A68D6 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cqcL2XZ3-x1y for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.239]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681373A67AD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so1189697rvf.49 for ; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 14:57:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=BMWG5h5gefG5peV7VRyfHOIY9q4uAaDYvtgZPiAQNFA=; b=gY3CT7ayCJlbO8ZLm/Y+vw8JsIwe1LLSCBaQ+oovZ6oO3JWce+ay3ARzbmnWg3adZH ftfS5DS/LZSYWxUs83UHFbzLs6YX1JxKXo+VMyZeu8CI9RPQ7/RBQQwELg2ye9TJhCfB R6kKFPAcdbokwxDf5mzWBvpulBf1sUYgpXEm4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=EjdXKVCXm++z1KTtwEKooEWRAdW+M73lDSARvSRVRIZnJxrtVO0Ay3tGuMy/qpV2Hp jgfd+o29vOpxucGNOoj+QLQYOamQNS4O1QPzQKmImftnF/D473VywOn4GnVq9dUZ+Rt2 Y5nKQ0yHUsYszT5Rzb0zNzhhjBqBubNyL+rQk= Received: by 10.141.193.1 with SMTP id v1mr110863rvp.245.1222984662262; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 14:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.163.15 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <41a006820810021457i1b776ebtb95c509dd02c2799@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:57:42 +0200 From: "Gerard Meijssen" To: "LTRU Working Group" In-Reply-To: <48E53FCA.80902@malform.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <41a006820810021252o72ea9feajd8e6ba6832623b02@mail.gmail.com> <003101c924d4$a7737c40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <48E53FCA.80902@malform.no> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0245219164==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0245219164== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_742_9925484.1222984662237" ------=_Part_742_9925484.1222984662237 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hoi, I do want to remind you all of the opinion expressed that it would not be a good idea to include numbers in a code. So this means that codes like 2006g would not be acceptable. If this is indeed the case, I am interested to learn what code would be acceptable. From a technical perspective the code "qwerty" would function as well... Again, I prefer not to read any meaning in a code. In answer to Karen, when a spell checker that conforms to a specific standard finishes to check a document, the document complies with that standard. For people interested in corpus analysis, it makes a difference to know that a document is to be expected to comply with a specific standard. At the end of such a spell check, it can be safely said that the document can be determined to be in compliance with such a standard. Thanks, Gerard On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: > Randy Presuhn 2008-10-02 23.20: > > Hi - >> >> As co-chair... >> > > ( snipped info about Green/White book standards of 2006 for Dutch ) > > While, as others have pointed out, how Dutch orthographic variants should >> be registered is off-topic for this list, the technical point that Gerard >> raises, that there may be competing orthographic reforms published in the >> same year, as evidenced by the case of Dutch, *is* germane to this thread. >> > > The question is if such clashes is a valid point against reserving years > for such registrations. I think not. > > In this case, one book would have to have the "2006" and the other e.g. > "2006w" or "2006g" - unless they both would like to avoid the bare "2006". > -- > leif halvard silli > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_742_9925484.1222984662237 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hoi,
I do want to remind you all of the opinion expressed that it would not be a good idea to include numbers in a code. So this means that codes like 2006g would not be acceptable. If this is indeed the case, I am interested to learn what code would be acceptable. From a technical perspective the code "qwerty" would function as well... Again, I prefer not to read any meaning in a code.

In answer to Karen, when a spell checker that conforms to a specific standard finishes to check a document, the document complies with that standard. For people interested in corpus analysis, it makes a difference to know that a document is to be expected to comply with a specific standard. At the end of such a spell check, it can be safely said that the document can be determined to be in compliance with such a standard.
Thanks,
      Gerard

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no> wrote:
Randy Presuhn 2008-10-02 23.20:

Hi -

As co-chair...

 ( snipped info about Green/White book standards of 2006 for Dutch )


While, as others have pointed out, how Dutch orthographic variants should
be registered is off-topic for this list, the technical point that Gerard
raises, that there may be competing orthographic reforms published in the
same year, as evidenced by the case of Dutch, *is* germane to this thread.

The question is if such clashes is a valid point against reserving years for such registrations. I think not.

In this case, one book would have to have the "2006" and the other e.g. "2006w" or "2006g" - unless they both would like to avoid the bare "2006".
--
leif halvard silli

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_742_9925484.1222984662237-- --===============0245219164== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0245219164==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 15:42:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11EF13A690B; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:42:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEFF728C175 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:42:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.665 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.665 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m4j+cQ0OJBjD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B4073A68E3 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:42:06 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,353,1220227200"; d="scan'208,217";a="116676913" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Oct 2008 22:42:30 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m92MgRXQ016069 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:42:28 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:42:27 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Gerard Meijssen , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:42:22 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: Ackk2eghMSxjwq/yRw+2oJ8dorrB+gABgATQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7265B1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <41a006820810021252o72ea9feajd8e6ba6832623b02@mail.gmail.com> <003101c924d4$a7737c40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <48E53FCA.80902@malform.no> <41a006820810021457i1b776ebtb95c509dd02c2799@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <41a006820810021457i1b776ebtb95c509dd02c2799@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0000916742==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 15:58:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E102E3A6ABA; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:58:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF5B3A6A7E for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:58:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.656 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.656 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8jgnroWNG1g for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC563A6A57 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:58:26 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,353,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="116681041" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Oct 2008 22:58:41 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m92MweJM019177 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:58:40 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:58:39 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Leif Halvard Silli , Mark Davis Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:58:37 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: AckkuHp95CC7esDoSDejsDJCfxAIIgAKHBPw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7265E8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020813s590582bjbe1307a8bfe42635@mail.gmail.com> <48E50BBD.8050501@malform.no> In-Reply-To: <48E50BBD.8050501@malform.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > You here use the word "romanization" - aka latinisation - instead > of transcription. Can we rule out that UNGEGN will not specify > e.g. Cyrillic transcriptions? (But if they should add Cyrillic > transcriptions, then one could just add e.g. "en-Cyrl" to the list > of prefixes.) Mark is talking about a generic variant: one with no prefixes at all. > > And what about "be-ungegn", which you in fact used as example in > one of your previous messages? Also see my note about > "supress-script" for variant tags below. Suppress-Script for variants is not permitted and should not be permitted, IMO. It is an unnecessary change. Furthermore, the ietf-languages list has gone the other way and suggested that script subtags SHOULD be used with a variant representing a transliteration. > > > Good. ISSUE: You take for granted that it is meant > "fr-CA-latn-1994". I would propose that variant subtag NB> The script always precedes the region. "fr-Latn-CA-1994" > registrations should always be very spesific about which Region > and Script they are valid for. For instance, the current > registration of "1996" does not specify that it is a "de-DE" > related norm. As if "de-CH-1996" would also be correct. Others have pointed out the fallacy in this example, which does not invalidate the point. Registrations SHOULD be specific about script or region or even variant (in addition to language) when they are actually confined to a specific usages. See, for example, the registry record for '1994'. > > The taggers would then have to know the Suppress-Script rules in > order to understand that in real life tagging, they ought to write > "de-DE-1996" and not "de-DE-Latn-1996". And they would also have Uh... taggers already need to know when to use subtags. They are specifically advised not to use scripts unless it adds something to the tag, a specific example of the more general advisory not to use subtags that add nothing to the overall tag. Most German applications are actually fine with "de". In some cases "de-DE" or "de-DE-1996" are appropriate. Rarely "de-Latn-DE-1996" is appropriate---probably when the German in question is also rendered with other scripts in the same document/collection. > to know the rules in order to know that they can/should/could also > often drop "DE" and just write "de-1996". RTFRFC. > > Just because a language subtag has (or hasn't) a Suppress-Script > field, does not necessarily imply that the variant subtag has the > same - or the same lack of - script association. Therefore I think Yes it does. Note that transliteration variants, such as 'wadegile', have a Prefix (zh-Latn, in that case) to convey the fact that the script is needed. Although 'zh' does not suppress a script, the same thing can be said of (for example) romanizations of other languages. "be" requires no script and suppresses "Cyrl", but "be-Latn-ungegn" would probably be a good choice if 'ungegn' were a valid subtag representing a Latin transcription scheme. > > If one cannot use the Prefix field to do this, then one should > invent a new field for this particular purpose. Perhaps a > Relates-to field. I think this is overkill. At some point we have to let the LSR register subtags and at some point we have to let people tag stuff. It is difficult enough--and maybe too difficult--for people to understand the information there today. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 19:13:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C06053A6ADD; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:13:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6593A6ADD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:13:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.146, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zgoXPNeqH-Vi for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 58CE43A6A7A for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17612 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2008 02:13:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.47) with ESMTP; 03 Oct 2008 02:13:52 -0000 Message-ID: <7F823E8F354440F69812408CFA244387@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20081002143931.GA20792@nic.fr> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C948@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:13:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlN0ZXBoYW5lIEJvcnR6bWV5ZXIiIDxib3J0em1leWVyIGF0IG5pYyBkb3QgZnI+IHdyb3RlOgoK Pj4gSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQgaXMgcmVhZHkgZm9yIFdHIExhc3QgQ2FsbC4gIEkndmUg dXBkYXRlZCBteSBwYWdlIAo+PiBhdCBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnL3JmYzQ2NDViaXMu aHRtbAo+Cj4gSSByYW4gaXQgdGhyb3VnaCBteSBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBhbmQgSSB3YXMgbm90 IGFibGUgdG8gZmluZCBhbnkgCj4gbWlzdGFrZS4KCiJQaGlsbGlwcywgQWRkaXNvbiIgPGFkZGlz b24gYXQgYW1hem9uIGRvdCBjb20+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBNeSBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBpcyBsZXNz IGNvbXBsZXRlIHRoYXQgU3RlcGhhbmUncywgYnV0IHRoZSByZWNvcmQtamFyIAo+IHBhcnNlciBy YW4gY2xlYW5seSBhbmQgdGhlIHVuaXQgdGVzdHMgYWxsIHJhbiwgRldJVy4KClRoYW5rIHlvdSBm b3IgdGVzdGluZyB0aGUgdXBkYXRlZCBSZWdpc3RyeSBkZWxpdmVyYWJsZTsgdGhhdCBpcyBhIApz aWduaWZpY2FudCBwYXJ0IG9mIHB1dHRpbmcgdGhpcyBkcmFmdCB0b2dldGhlci4KCkknbSBob3Bp bmcgc29tZW9uZSB3aWxsIGJlIGFibGUgdG8gcmV2aWV3IHRoZSBwcm9zZSwgb24gdGhlIGZvbGxv d2luZyAKYmFzZXM6CgoqIGNvbnNpc3RlbmN5IHdpdGggZHJhZnQtNDY0NmJpcwoqIHNlbGYtY29u c2lzdGVuY3ksIGkuZS4gImlmIHlvdSBmb2xsb3cgdGhlc2UgcnVsZXMsIHlvdSB3aWxsIGdldCB0 aGlzIApSZWdpc3RyeSIKKiBlZGl0b3JpYWwKCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBD b2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMu b3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwK aHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMg IMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1 IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 19:31:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179D53A696B; 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03 Oct 2008 02:31:39 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:31:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: [Ltru] Too fine-grained? (was: Re: Uniqueness of variant subtags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org V2hlbiB3ZSB0YWxrIGFib3V0IHJlZ2lzdGVyaW5nIHllYXItYmFzZWQgdmFyaWFudHMgZm9yIG1p bm9yIHJldmlzaW9ucyAKb2YgYW4gb3J0aG9ncmFwaHksIG9yIG90aGVyIHJlZ3VsYXRhYmxlIGFz cGVjdCBvZiBhIGxhbmd1YWdlLCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgCmtlZXAgaW4gbWluZCBzb21lIG9mIHRoZSBt YWluIHJlYXNvbnMgd2UgaGF2ZSBsYW5ndWFnZSB0YWdzIGluIHRoZSBmaXJzdCAKcGxhY2U6Cgox LiB0byBhbGxvdyBwZW9wbGUgdG8gaWRlbnRpZnkgdGhlIGxhbmd1YWdlIG9mIGNvbnRlbnQKCjIu IHRvIGFsbG93IHBlb3BsZSBvciBjb21wdXRlcnMgdG8gc2VhcmNoIGZvciBjb250ZW50IGluIGEg cGFydGljdWxhciAKbGFuZ3VhZ2UKCjMuIHRvIGFsbG93IHBlb3BsZSB0byBzcGVjaWZ5ICJwcmVm ZXJyZWQgbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIiBpbiB3aGljaCB0aGV5IHdpc2ggCnRvIHJlY2VpdmUgY29udGVudAoK VGhlIGZpbmVyLWdyYWluZWQgb3VyIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ2dpbmcgc29sdXRpb25zIGJlY29tZSwg c3VjaCBhcyAKIm5vLTE5MDciIHZlcnN1cyAibm8tMTkxNyIsIHRoZSBsZXNzIGxpa2VseSBpdCBp cyB0aGF0IGFsbCBvZiB0aGVzZSB1c2UgCmNhc2VzIHdpbGwgYmUgbWV0LiAgUmVtZW1iZXIgdGhh dCB0aGlzIGdyb3VwIGhhcyBhIGhpc3Rvcnkgb2YgYXNzdW1pbmcgCnRoZSBsb3dlc3QgY29tbW9u IGRlbm9taW5hdG9yIGFtb25nIHNlYXJjaGluZyBhbmQgbWF0Y2hpbmcgZW5naW5lcy4gCihUaGF0 J3Mgd2h5IHdlIGhhdmUgU3VwcHJlc3MtU2NyaXB0LCBiZWNhdXNlIHdlIHRoaW5rIG1hbnkgc2Vh cmNoaW5nIGFuZCAKbWF0Y2hpbmcgZW5naW5lcyB3b24ndCBrbm93IHRvIHN0cmlwIHRoZSBzY3Jp cHQgc3VidGFnIGZyb20gCiJkZS1MYXRuLUFUIi4pCgpTbyBiZWZvcmUgd2UgYXNzdW1lIHRoYXQg d2UnbGwgZXZlbnR1YWxseSBoYXZlIGxvdHMgb2YgMTkxNydzIGFuZCAxOTU5J3MgCmFuZCAxOTk0 J3MgY29sbGlkaW5nIHdpdGggZWFjaCBvdGhlciwgYW5kIG5lZWQgdG8gbWFrZSBzdXJlIGFsbCBv ZiB0aGVtIApjYW4gY29leGlzdCwgd2UgbWlnaHQgd2FudCB0byB0aGluayBhYm91dCB3aGV0aGVy IHRoZXNlIGFyZSBkaXN0aW5jdGlvbnMgCnRoYXQgbmVlZCB0byBiZSBtYWRlIGluIGxhbmd1YWdl IHRhZ3MuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZD IDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRm Lm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFu ZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBp ZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 19:40:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A4A3A68FF; 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03 Oct 2008 02:40:28 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:40:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org R2VyYXJkIE1laWpzc2VuIDxnZXJhcmQgZG90IG1laWpzc2VuIGF0IGdtYWlsIGRvdCBjb20+IHdy b3RlOgoKPiBJIGRvIHdhbnQgdG8gcmVtaW5kIHlvdSBhbGwgb2YgdGhlIG9waW5pb24gZXhwcmVz c2VkIHRoYXQgaXQgd291bGQgbm90IAo+IGJlIGEgZ29vZCBpZGVhIHRvIGluY2x1ZGUgbnVtYmVy cyBpbiBhIGNvZGUuCgpJIGRvbid0IHJlbWVtYmVyIHNlZWluZyBhbnlvbmUgZXhwcmVzcyB0aGF0 IG9waW5pb24uICBQZXJoYXBzIEkgbWlzc2VkIApzb21ldGhpbmcuCgpJdCBjZXJ0YWlubHkgd2Fz bid0IG1lOyBJIHNhaWQgdGhhdCAqeWVhcnMqIChub3QganVzdCAibnVtYmVycyIpIHNob3VsZCAK bm90IGJlIHVzZWQgaW4gYSBzdWJ0YWcgKnVubGVzcyogdGhlIHZhcmlldHkgYmVpbmcgdGFnZ2Vk IGlzIGNsZWFybHkgCmFzc29jaWF0ZWQgd2l0aCBhIHllYXIgaW4gc29tZSB3YXkuCgotLQpEb3Vn IEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAj MTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0 ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 20:48:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6B23A68E3; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:48:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515A63A68E3 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:48:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BCPOFv+++qmB for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E778D3A68C0 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Klbef-0008WS-OU; Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:48:37 +0200 Message-ID: <48E59615.5030800@malform.no> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:48:37 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020813s590582bjbe1307a8bfe42635@mail.gmail.com> <48E50BBD.8050501@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7265E8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7265E8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison 2008-10-03 00.58: >> You here use the word "romanization" - aka latinisation - >> instead of transcription. Can we rule out that UNGEGN will >> not specify e.g. Cyrillic transcriptions? (But if they should >> add Cyrillic transcriptions, then one could just add e.g. >> "en-Cyrl" to the list of prefixes.) > > Mark is talking about a generic variant: one with no prefixes > at all. Mark said: 'ungegn' [...] productively used with 'ru-Latn' [...] But in an earlier message he said: Type: variant Subtag: 2003 [ snip ] Prefix: be-ungegn I think Prefix: be-Latn-ungegn would have be more consistent. > Others have pointed out the fallacy in this example, which does > not invalidate the point. Registrations SHOULD be specific > about script or region or even variant (in addition to > language) when they are actually confined to a specific usages. > See, for example, the registry record for '1994'. It is interesting to compare the prefixes allowed for "1996", Prefix: de to those allowed for "1994": Prefix: sl-rozaj Prefix: sl-rozaj-biske Prefix: sl-rozaj-njiva Prefix: sl-rozaj-osojs Prefix: sl-rozaj-solba Allthough "sl-rozaj-lipaw" is not listed, since "sl-rozaj" is listed, how can we know that "sl-rozaj-lipaw-1994" is not permitted? The only answer is: by applying the logic that the Prefix fields list *all* the possible "minimum prefixes". But then, following the same logic, it should also be possible to write "de-NO-1996". In other words, I think the 1996 registration should have listed these "minimum prefixes": Prefix: de Prefix: de-DE Prefix: de-AT Prefix: de-CH Prefix: de-LI Only then would "1996" and "1994" appear to follow the same rules. "1996" and "1994" have much in common: I don't think that 1996 lays down one 100% identical norm for all 4 country norms. Just as for the 1994 norm, 1996 has room for some region/location spesific variants. And, just as for the Lipovaz/lipaw dialect of Resian, there are some locations (Luxemburg/"LU") which was not formally covered by the reform. Hence one should think that "de-LU-1996" would be wrong, just as "de-NO-1996" would be. >> The taggers would then have to know the Suppress-Script rules >> in order to understand that in real life tagging, they ought >> to write "de-DE-1996" and not "de-DE-Latn-1996". And they >> would also have > > Uh... taggers already need to know when to use subtags. They > are specifically advised not to use scripts unless it adds > something to the tag, Right. My proposal was not to change that advisory. > a specific example of the more general > advisory not to use subtags that add nothing to the overall > tag. Most German applications are actually fine with "de". In > some cases "de-DE" or "de-DE-1996" are appropriate. Rarely > "de-Latn-DE-1996" is appropriate---probably when the German in > question is also rendered with other scripts in the same > document/collection. > >> to know the rules in order to know that they can/should/could >> also often drop "DE" and just write "de-1996". > > RTFRFC. Of course. However, in order to know that the 1996 norm applies to the German as used in the regions "DE", "CH", "AT" and "LI", one must read Wikipedia - not the RFC. >> Just because a language subtag has (or hasn't) a >> Suppress-Script field, does not necessarily imply that the >> variant subtag has the same - or the same lack of - script >> association. Therefore I think > > Yes it does. OK. But there are some language subtags for which there aren't a suppress-script field. E.g. Turkmen language. So, for the hypothetical 2008 reform of the Turkmen langauge, one would have to include "Latn" as part of the prefix in order to make clear what the reform relates to: Prefix: tk-latn The question then is: How do you discern this from the transliteration variants you discuss below, where the "latn" is an *required* prefix (which it probably should not be for "tk")? Possible answer: in order to allow tk-1998, yet at the same time make clear in the registry that it relates to Turkmen of Latin script of Turkmenistan, the follwoing prefixes would have to be listed - in order to list all "minium prefix" variants: Prefix: tk Prefix: tk-latn Prefix: tk-TM This would rule out adding "1998" to any other region subtags than -TM or to any other script subtag than -latn. > Note that transliteration variants, such as > 'wadegile', have a Prefix (zh-Latn, in that case) to convey the > fact that the script is needed. Although 'zh' does not suppress > a script, the same thing can be said of (for example) > romanizations of other languages. "be" requires no script and > suppresses "Cyrl", but "be-Latn-ungegn" would probably be a > good choice if 'ungegn' were a valid subtag representing a > Latin transcription scheme. OK. So the current tradition is that the Prefix field lists the *minimum prefix* that must be present before the variant subtag in question can be used. >> If one cannot use the Prefix field to do this, then one >> should invent a new field for this particular purpose. >> Perhaps a Relates-to field. > > I think this is overkill. At some point we have to let the LSR > register subtags and at some point we have to let people tag > stuff. It is difficult enough--and maybe too difficult--for > people to understand the information there today. I agree. But then we must commit overkill by adding more prefix fields instead, I think, such as I proposed for Turkmen above. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 21:48:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D543A689D; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 21:48:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65F53A6971 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 21:48:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.724 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.724 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qnakO-D26FAV for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 21:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C373A67F5 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 21:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KlcbF-0000Dq-Mc; Fri, 03 Oct 2008 06:49:09 +0200 Message-ID: <48E5A445.6010003@malform.no> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 06:49:09 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell References: In-Reply-To: Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Too fine-grained? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell 2008-10-03 04.31: [...] > The finer-grained our language tagging solutions become, such as > "no-1907" versus "no-1917", the less likely it is that all of these use > cases will be met. The disadvantages are also the advantages: You don't want "nn-1907" to be spelling checked like current "nn", so it may be fine if the computer does not try to spell-check "nn-1917". (Perhaps the alternative would be to "un-tag", or use an incorrect tag for texts following the 1917 norm, in order to avoid such spell-checking.) OTOH, a variant can sometimes come in place for a new language subtag - and thus can keep things together rather than be splitting. E.g. I understand that some prefer Resian to be registered as its own language. So this hints that variant subtags can also simplify and join rather than complicate and split. [...] > So before we assume that we'll eventually have lots of 1917's and 1959's > and 1994's colliding with each other, and need to make sure all of them > can coexist, we might want to think about whether these are distinctions > that need to be made in language tags. The alterantive will often be x-private subtags, I think. And they are even harder to get computers or people to handle. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 22:32:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5B53A68BF; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:32:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45DCB3A69D8 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:32:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QK4rvPS41wFh for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AEA63A67DD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KldHm-000584-6U; Fri, 03 Oct 2008 01:33:06 -0400 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 01:33:06 -0400 To: Leif Halvard Silli Message-ID: <20081003053306.GM31839@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020813s590582bjbe1307a8bfe42635@mail.gmail.com> <48E50BBD.8050501@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7265E8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48E59615.5030800@malform.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48E59615.5030800@malform.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Leif Halvard Silli scripsit: > It is interesting to compare the prefixes allowed for "1996", > > Prefix: de > > to those allowed for "1994": > > Prefix: sl-rozaj > Prefix: sl-rozaj-biske > Prefix: sl-rozaj-njiva > Prefix: sl-rozaj-osojs > Prefix: sl-rozaj-solba Not *allowed*, but *recommended*. The first means that we say you SHOULD use 'de' (and implicitly, SHOULD NOT use any other primary language subtag) with '1996'. The second group means that you SHOULD use 'sl', AND you SHOULD use 'rozaj', AD you should use either one of the four variant tags or no variant tag, before you use '1994'. > Allthough "sl-rozaj-lipaw" is not listed, since "sl-rozaj" is > listed, how can we know that "sl-rozaj-lipaw-1994" is not > permitted? But it *is* permitted. The Prefix: on a subtag is only what's recommended. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Most languages are dramatically underdescribed, and at least one is dramatically overdescribed. Still other languages are simultaneously overdescribed and underdescribed. Welsh pertains to the third category. --Alan King _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 22:53:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E203A6A4A; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:53:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088B33A68BF for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:53:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J01L437Il5Hh for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03CEF3A67DD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:53:29 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:53:29 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:53:27 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: AckkkmqiWKrbiA/DT1yfyJe15p5n4QAhclJA Message-ID: References: <3FEC4B39435A43C7B4F8DCF97EF1DCB4@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <3FEC4B39435A43C7B4F8DCF97EF1DCB4@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org You lot are generating a lot of mail on a last call topic. I hope that we are moving toward stability of the draft, not trying to rush in new features at the last minute. Martin wrote: > I hope we can restrict this to the a very short time. > Everybody, please comment quickly... I agree with those who say we should not allow two records having the same subtag and the same type. I agree with the sentiment that a subtag should have a consistent semantic. Years are relatively easy cases as the concept of 'point in time at which some significant change in conventions occurred' is pretty straightforward. (Someone mentioned the possibility of two changes happening for a given language in a given year -- that just means that, in that case, more than four-digit subtag is needed.) Beyond that, there'd be a need to be wary of the kind of fuzziness Randy fears. A case like "northern" is a clear example of a problematic case: there is a trivial sense in which "northern" would always have a consistent semantic, but that would be a vague trap that would snare us unless there were some way to make exactly clear what specific semantic is meant for each collocation. This reminds me of issues in lexicography, in which a word form may correspond to distinct lexemes (distinct meanings), or in which a single lexeme can have multiple senses: in either case, a hierarchical organization of information is typically used to show how information is related. So, instead of > Type: variant > Subtag: 1901 > Description: German orthography of 1901 > Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 > Prefix: de > Prefix: uz > Comments: Good luck figuring this out. something along the lines of Type: variant Subtag: 1901 Sense: Description: German orthography of 1901 Prefix: de Reference: ... Sense: Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 Prefix: uz Reference: ... Some said that the first record above seems reasonably clear; I concede that -- in this case; but in the general case I think there are real risks of introducing ambiguity and lack of clarity into records. But the kind of approach in the second record above would require a lot more change than I think should be introduced at this stage. I think it very important to limit ourselves to a useful change that we can get quick closure on. To that end, I suggest - that we have a requirement on one record per subtag-type, - that at this point we not block records like the first one above - that there be a general requirement on a consistent semantic for all uses of a subtag - that there be some general cautions about risks of confusion if the intent for each particular collocation is unclear And beyond that, that for now we leave it to the IETF-Language list and LSTR to do the right thing -- so that we in LTRU can do the right thing for us at this point, which is to close on this discussion and on the WGLC. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 22:59:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F023A6AAC; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:59:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9CB3A6A73 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:59:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ubr1JDMBKyZc for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.173]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF843A6A72 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 27so1515567wfd.31 for ; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 22:59:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Zkcq4b7IXaztLDwN1piLJtikD93h/IUPoyF0ZpTrpUo=; b=p/iSB8HB5YGOAgnbPwOfb5ggrqXy9Ig4cac0F84TH793zzRSqrMtfHQX19aJRUS1Ls CQJ8aezoOEzl5eEgWHN4gRH6gKY6L9IVA49VBcvJLrtKuvkOH4agHIb5HSH0Iw3/bXk9 FsFid2aOzVuIbMNghIW4aGTbp0iGxemYz+fzU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=W40352zKz/Tcqg7GbmNQ80N3FggMaTTAkIvkIUUZNdMUyUikVcO1IEIHapQh0WIDQY ADJaMxwxDvTrFto475wQqS6AZzU4ouaYjP07XxwbkOZHtGn+Ga5Sm6jurg9JyAn59nI1 sIfJNHSxUeG62E4kLY2IgU3vtFnyoSPK3Xtkk= Received: by 10.142.252.11 with SMTP id z11mr190340wfh.232.1223013564357; Thu, 02 Oct 2008 22:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810022259r3cd384fcpb48c89c4926e7e60@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:59:24 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3FEC4B39435A43C7B4F8DCF97EF1DCB4@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 374b401dd18bcf25 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1214676662==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1214676662== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14104_8598193.1223013564356" ------=_Part_14104_8598193.1223013564356 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think we might be in rough agreement. Can you suggest changes in the wording in http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfqr8rd5_216dbfzfkf5? Mark On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Peter Constable wrote: > You lot are generating a lot of mail on a last call topic. I hope that we > are moving toward stability of the draft, not trying to rush in new features > at the last minute. > > Martin wrote: > > > I hope we can restrict this to the a very short time. > > Everybody, please comment quickly... > > I agree with those who say we should not allow two records having the same > subtag and the same type. > > I agree with the sentiment that a subtag should have a consistent semantic. > Years are relatively easy cases as the concept of 'point in time at which > some significant change in conventions occurred' is pretty straightforward. > (Someone mentioned the possibility of two changes happening for a given > language in a given year -- that just means that, in that case, more than > four-digit subtag is needed.) Beyond that, there'd be a need to be wary of > the kind of fuzziness Randy fears. A case like "northern" is a clear example > of a problematic case: there is a trivial sense in which "northern" would > always have a consistent semantic, but that would be a vague trap that would > snare us unless there were some way to make exactly clear what specific > semantic is meant for each collocation. > > This reminds me of issues in lexicography, in which a word form may > correspond to distinct lexemes (distinct meanings), or in which a single > lexeme can have multiple senses: in either case, a hierarchical organization > of information is typically used to show how information is related. So, > instead of > > > Type: variant > > Subtag: 1901 > > Description: German orthography of 1901 > > Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 > > Prefix: de > > Prefix: uz > > Comments: Good luck figuring this out. > > something along the lines of > > Type: variant > Subtag: 1901 > Sense: > Description: German orthography of 1901 > Prefix: de > Reference: ... > Sense: > Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 > Prefix: uz > Reference: ... > > Some said that the first record above seems reasonably clear; I concede > that -- in this case; but in the general case I think there are real risks > of introducing ambiguity and lack of clarity into records. > > But the kind of approach in the second record above would require a lot > more change than I think should be introduced at this stage. I think it very > important to limit ourselves to a useful change that we can get quick > closure on. To that end, I suggest > > - that we have a requirement on one record per subtag-type, > - that at this point we not block records like the first one above > - that there be a general requirement on a consistent semantic for all uses > of a subtag > - that there be some general cautions about risks of confusion if the > intent for each particular collocation is unclear > > And beyond that, that for now we leave it to the IETF-Language list and > LSTR to do the right thing -- so that we in LTRU can do the right thing for > us at this point, which is to close on this discussion and on the WGLC. > > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_14104_8598193.1223013564356 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
I think we might be in rough agreement. Can you suggest changes in the wording in http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfqr8rd5_216dbfzfkf5?

Mark


On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
You lot are generating a lot of mail on a last call topic. I hope that we are moving toward stability of the draft, not trying to rush in new features at the last minute.

Martin wrote:

> I hope we can restrict this to the a very short time.
> Everybody, please comment quickly...

I agree with those who say we should not allow two records having the same subtag and the same type.

I agree with the sentiment that a subtag should have a consistent semantic. Years are relatively easy cases as the concept of 'point in time at which some significant change in conventions occurred' is pretty straightforward. (Someone mentioned the possibility of two changes happening for a given language in a given year -- that just means that, in that case, more than four-digit subtag is needed.) Beyond that, there'd be a need to be wary of the kind of fuzziness Randy fears. A case like "northern" is a clear example of a problematic case: there is a trivial sense in which "northern" would always have a consistent semantic, but that would be a vague trap that would snare us unless there were some way to make exactly clear what specific semantic is meant for each collocation.

This reminds me of issues in lexicography, in which a word form may correspond to distinct lexemes (distinct meanings), or in which a single lexeme can have multiple senses: in either case, a hierarchical organization of information is typically used to show how information is related. So, instead of

> Type: variant
> Subtag: 1901
> Description: German orthography of 1901
> Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901
> Prefix: de
> Prefix: uz
> Comments: Good luck figuring this out.

something along the lines of

Type: variant
Subtag: 1901
Sense:
  Description: German orthography of 1901
  Prefix: de
  Reference: ...
Sense:
  Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901
  Prefix: uz
  Reference: ...

Some said that the first record above seems reasonably clear; I concede that -- in this case; but in the general case I think there are real risks of introducing ambiguity and lack of clarity into records.

But the kind of approach in the second record above would require a lot more change than I think should be introduced at this stage. I think it very important to limit ourselves to a useful change that we can get quick closure on. To that end, I suggest

- that we have a requirement on one record per subtag-type,
- that at this point we not block records like the first one above
- that there be a general requirement on a consistent semantic for all uses of a subtag
- that there be some general cautions about risks of confusion if the intent for each particular collocation is unclear

And beyond that, that for now we leave it to the IETF-Language list and LSTR to do the right thing -- so that we in LTRU can do the right thing for us at this point, which is to close on this discussion and on the WGLC.




Peter
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------=_Part_14104_8598193.1223013564356-- --===============1214676662== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1214676662==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 23:01:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA773A6AAC; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:01:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D26A28C179 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:01:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ilyuHm9icT0N for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E183A6A73 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Kldi9-0000Eo-D2; Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:00:21 +0200 Message-ID: <48E5B4F5.2090309@malform.no> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:00:21 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan References: <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C876@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020749j286c508dr1f3fbfeab5d1fc2d@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020813s590582bjbe1307a8bfe42635@mail.gmail.com> <48E50BBD.8050501@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7265E8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48E59615.5030800@malform.no> <20081003053306.GM31839@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081003053306.GM31839@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org John Cowan 2008-10-03 07.33: > Leif Halvard Silli scripsit: > >> It is interesting to compare the prefixes allowed for "1996", >> >> Prefix: de [ snip ] > Not *allowed*, but *recommended*. The first means that we say you SHOULD use 'de' > (and implicitly, SHOULD NOT use any other primary language subtag) with '1996'. But the question still is why the registry does not say which regions tags "1996" is recommended used for. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 23:02:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C8A3A6A72; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:02:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77933A6A72 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:02:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L8WMSzwyVqJp for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B453A6A59 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.187) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:02:02 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.187]) with mapi; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:02:02 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:02:01 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: AckktZqCan7ggO73SoSkFYRnXvB1zAAZ+5UA Message-ID: References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81><48E406F8.1050900@malform.no><6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <48E4EEDE.40402@malform.no> <008e01c924b5$8ae1bca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <008e01c924b5$8ae1bca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org +1 -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:37 AM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Hi - As a technical contributor... I'm deeply concerned that this thread is leading to a seriously over-specified, over-engineered solution. There are several different concerns that folks appear to be trying to address, and I'm afraid that the net effect of the proposals might be worse than the envisioned problems. (1) making "institution" mnemonics part of the formal structure logically leads to the conclusion that there should be a registry of institutions. I really don't want to go there! (2) the "same meaning" vs "same semantics" debate gets to the heart of why I so strongly opposed using the same variant tag for the Hanyu Pinyin orthography of Mandarin and a pinyin-like way of writing Tibetan. Our job is to define procedures to keep the registry running smoothly so that language tagging needs can be met. How does each interpretation effect the operation of the review process and registry? How would each impact the developer communities of products that employ language tags? Would either approach make any difference to the people using those languages? (3) With respect to the "year" business, at some point we have to stop gilding this lily with more and more advice and recognize that as more and more variant subtags are registered, it will become increasingly likely that the character string used for the variant will end up having little or no mnemonic value. Tough. It's unrealistic at this late stage in the process to come up with an architecture for the construction of variant subtags. Doing so will only increases the amount of time spent arguing about the "right" string to use for a particular variant. THEY ARE JUST SUBTAGS, and we should *NOT* do anything to foster the perception that they are anything more. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 00:38:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6FAF3A6B5C; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C70E3A6B47 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:38:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kxv+SfiF9nUW for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.insee.fr (hermes.insee.fr [194.254.38.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBD23A68EB for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by hermes.insee.fr (Insee Mail server) with ESMTP id F3D435DC06F; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 09:39:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49BE79401E; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 09:39:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PCP-NXjU-P6d; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 09:39:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4A1794022; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 09:39:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.51]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 3 Oct 2008 09:39:01 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 09:39:01 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07CE@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 thread-index: AcklHag+mvWQgDJMTluTIaEGGmz45wABSyfw References: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2008 07:39:01.0551 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A84EBF0:01C9252B] Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear All, 0-Let me suggest that we should adopt a precise, uniform and recognized ter= minology when discussing about transformations between languages and/or scr= ipts. So, I reproduce thereafter 8 definitions that have been given by the UNGEGN= (United Nations Group of Experts for Geographical Names) inside their Manu= al M 85, published by the UN Department of Economic and Social Affairs, Sta= tistical Division, in May 2002, entitled "Glossary of Terms for the Standar= dization of Geographic Names". All definitions are given in the 6 official UN's languages, and I only repr= oduce the english linguistic version. 1-TRANSFORMATION [, names]: [In toponymy,] general term covering the TRANSL= ATION, TRANSCRIPTION and TRANSLITERATION [of toponyms]. The two latter term= s constitute CONVERSION. 2-TRANSLATION: (a) The process of expressing meaning, presented in a source= LANGUAGE, in the words of a target LANGUAGE. (b) A result of this process. [In toponymy it is= sometimes applied only to the generic element of a name.] 3-CONVERSION: [In toponymy,] the process of transferring the phonological a= nd/or morphological elements of a particular LANGUAGE to another, or from o= ne SCRIPT to another. Conversion is effected by either TRANSCRIPTION or TRA= NSLITERATION. 4-TRANSCRIPTION: (a) A method of phonetic names CONVERSION between differen= t LANGUAGES, in which the sounds of a source LANGUAGE are recorded in terms= of a specific target LANGUAGE and its particular SCRIPT, normally withou r= ecourse to additional diacritics. (b) A result of this process. TRANSCRIPTION is not normally a reversible process. Retranscription (e.g. = by computer) might result in a form differing from the original. However, pinyin romanization of Chinese, although being a CONVERSION betwe= en SCRIPTS, but phonetic and non-reversible, is also regarded as TRANSCRIPT= ION, not as TRANSLITERATION. 5-TRANSLITERATION: (a) A method of names CONVERSION between different alpha= betic SCRIPTS or syllabic SCRIPTS, in which each character or di-, tri- or = tetragraph of the source SCRIPT is represented in the target SCRIPT in prin= ciple by one character or di-, tri- or tetragraph, or a diacritic or a comb= ination of these. TRANSLITERATION, as distinct from TRANSCRIPTION, aims at = (but does not necessarily achieve) complete reversibility, and must be acco= mpanied by a transliteration key. (b) A result of this process. 6-ROMANIZATION: CONVERSION from non-Roman into Roman SCRIPT. 7-LANGUAGE: [In the context of this glossary,] a means of verbal communica= tion used by a large community, including the words, their pronunciation an= d the method of combining them. 8-SCRIPT: A set of graphic symbols employed in writig or printing a particu= lar LANGUAGE, differing from another set not only by typeface or font. Groups of different SCRIPTS form writing systems. Examples: Roman, Greek, Cyrillic, Korean, Thai, arabic and Hebrew SCRIPTS b= elong to the alphabetic writing system (but the latter two are defective, i= .e. mainly consonant SCRIPTS); Amharic, Japanese Kana and Inuktitut (Eskimo= ) SCRIPTS belong to the syllabic writing system; Chinese Han and Japanese K= anji SCRIPTS belong to the logographic writing system. Bien cordialement .G=E9rard LANG = -----Message d'origine----- De : ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de ltr= u-request@ietf.org Envoy=E9 : vendredi 3 octobre 2008 08:02 =C0 : ltru@ietf.org Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 Send Ltru mailing list submissions to ltru@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ltru-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at ltru-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "R= e: Contents of Ltru digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Too fine-grained? (Leif Halvard Silli) 2. Re: Uniqueness of variant subtags (John Cowan) 3. Re: Uniqueness of variant subtags (Peter Constable) 4. Re: Uniqueness of variant subtags (Mark Davis) 5. Re: Uniqueness of variant subtags (Leif Halvard Silli) 6. Re: Uniqueness of variant subtags (Peter Constable) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 06:49:09 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli Subject: Re: [Ltru] Too fine-grained? To: Doug Ewell Cc: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <48E5A445.6010003@malform.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed Doug Ewell 2008-10-03 04.31: [...] > The finer-grained our language tagging solutions become, such as = > "no-1907" versus "no-1917", the less likely it is that all of these = > use cases will be met. The disadvantages are also the advantages: You don't want "nn-1907" to be s= pelling checked like current "nn", so it may be fine if the computer does n= ot try to spell-check "nn-1917". = (Perhaps the alternative would be to "un-tag", or use an incorrect tag for = texts following the 1917 norm, in order to avoid such spell-checking.) OTOH, a variant can sometimes come in place for a new language subtag - and= thus can keep things together rather than be splitting. E.g. I understand = that some prefer Resian to be registered as its own language. So this hints= that variant subtags can also simplify and join rather than complicate and= split. [...] > So before we assume that we'll eventually have lots of 1917's and = > 1959's and 1994's colliding with each other, and need to make sure all = > of them can coexist, we might want to think about whether these are = > distinctions that need to be made in language tags. The alterantive will often be x-private subtags, I think. And they are even= harder to get computers or people to handle. -- leif halvard silli ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 01:33:06 -0400 From: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags To: Leif Halvard Silli Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Message-ID: <20081003053306.GM31839@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Leif Halvard Silli scripsit: > It is interesting to compare the prefixes allowed for "1996", > = > Prefix: de > = > to those allowed for "1994": > = > Prefix: sl-rozaj > Prefix: sl-rozaj-biske > Prefix: sl-rozaj-njiva > Prefix: sl-rozaj-osojs > Prefix: sl-rozaj-solba Not *allowed*, but *recommended*. The first means that we say you SHOULD u= se 'de' (and implicitly, SHOULD NOT use any other primary language subtag) with '19= 96'. The second group means that you SHOULD use 'sl', AND you SHOULD use 'rozaj'= , AD you should use either one of the four variant tags or no variant tag, = before you use '1994'. > Allthough "sl-rozaj-lipaw" is not listed, since "sl-rozaj" is listed, = > how can we know that "sl-rozaj-lipaw-1994" is not permitted? But it *is* permitted. The Prefix: on a subtag is only what's recommended. -- = John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Most languages are dramatically underdescribed, and at least one is dramati= cally overdescribed. Still other languages are simultaneously overdescribe= d and underdescribed. Welsh pertains to the third category. --Alan King ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:53:27 -0700 From: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags To: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: = Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" You lot are generating a lot of mail on a last call topic. I hope that we a= re moving toward stability of the draft, not trying to rush in new features= at the last minute. Martin wrote: > I hope we can restrict this to the a very short time. > Everybody, please comment quickly... I agree with those who say we should not allow two records having the same = subtag and the same type. I agree with the sentiment that a subtag should have a consistent semantic.= Years are relatively easy cases as the concept of 'point in time at which = some significant change in conventions occurred' is pretty straightforward.= (Someone mentioned the possibility of two changes happening for a given la= nguage in a given year -- that just means that, in that case, more than fou= r-digit subtag is needed.) Beyond that, there'd be a need to be wary of the= kind of fuzziness Randy fears. A case like "northern" is a clear example o= f a problematic case: there is a trivial sense in which "northern" would al= ways have a consistent semantic, but that would be a vague trap that would = snare us unless there were some way to make exactly clear what specific sem= antic is meant for each collocation. This reminds me of issues in lexicography, in which a word form may corresp= ond to distinct lexemes (distinct meanings), or in which a single lexeme ca= n have multiple senses: in either case, a hierarchical organization of info= rmation is typically used to show how information is related. So, instead of > Type: variant > Subtag: 1901 > Description: German orthography of 1901 > Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 > Prefix: de > Prefix: uz > Comments: Good luck figuring this out. something along the lines of Type: variant Subtag: 1901 Sense: Description: German orthography of 1901 Prefix: de Reference: ... Sense: Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 Prefix: uz Reference: ... Some said that the first record above seems reasonably clear; I concede tha= t -- in this case; but in the general case I think there are real risks of = introducing ambiguity and lack of clarity into records. But the kind of approach in the second record above would require a lot mor= e change than I think should be introduced at this stage. I think it very i= mportant to limit ourselves to a useful change that we can get quick closur= e on. To that end, I suggest - that we have a requirement on one record per subtag-type, - that at this point we not block records like the first one above - that there be a general requirement on a consistent semantic for all uses= of a subtag - that there be some general cautions about risks of confusion if the inten= t for each particular collocation is unclear And beyond that, that for now we leave it to the IETF-Language list and LST= R to do the right thing -- so that we in LTRU can do the right thing for us= at this point, which is to close on this discussion and on the WGLC. Peter ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:59:24 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags To: "Peter Constable" Cc: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <30b660a20810022259r3cd384fcpb48c89c4926e7e60@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" I think we might be in rough agreement. Can you suggest changes in the word= ing in http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=3Ddfqr8rd5_216dbfzfkf5? Mark On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Peter Constable wro= te: > You lot are generating a lot of mail on a last call topic. I hope that = > we are moving toward stability of the draft, not trying to rush in new = > features at the last minute. > > Martin wrote: > > > I hope we can restrict this to the a very short time. > > Everybody, please comment quickly... > > I agree with those who say we should not allow two records having the = > same subtag and the same type. > > I agree with the sentiment that a subtag should have a consistent semanti= c. > Years are relatively easy cases as the concept of 'point in time at = > which some significant change in conventions occurred' is pretty straight= forward. > (Someone mentioned the possibility of two changes happening for a = > given language in a given year -- that just means that, in that case, = > more than four-digit subtag is needed.) Beyond that, there'd be a need = > to be wary of the kind of fuzziness Randy fears. A case like = > "northern" is a clear example of a problematic case: there is a = > trivial sense in which "northern" would always have a consistent = > semantic, but that would be a vague trap that would snare us unless = > there were some way to make exactly clear what specific semantic is meant= for each collocation. > > This reminds me of issues in lexicography, in which a word form may = > correspond to distinct lexemes (distinct meanings), or in which a = > single lexeme can have multiple senses: in either case, a hierarchical = > organization of information is typically used to show how information = > is related. So, instead of > > > Type: variant > > Subtag: 1901 > > Description: German orthography of 1901 > > Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 > > Prefix: de > > Prefix: uz > > Comments: Good luck figuring this out. > > something along the lines of > > Type: variant > Subtag: 1901 > Sense: > Description: German orthography of 1901 > Prefix: de > Reference: ... > Sense: > Description: Uzbek transliteration of 1901 > Prefix: uz > Reference: ... > > Some said that the first record above seems reasonably clear; I = > concede that -- in this case; but in the general case I think there = > are real risks of introducing ambiguity and lack of clarity into records. > > But the kind of approach in the second record above would require a = > lot more change than I think should be introduced at this stage. I = > think it very important to limit ourselves to a useful change that we = > can get quick closure on. To that end, I suggest > > - that we have a requirement on one record per subtag-type, > - that at this point we not block records like the first one above > - that there be a general requirement on a consistent semantic for all = > uses of a subtag > - that there be some general cautions about risks of confusion if the = > intent for each particular collocation is unclear > > And beyond that, that for now we leave it to the IETF-Language list = > and LSTR to do the right thing -- so that we in LTRU can do the right = > thing for us at this point, which is to close on this discussion and on t= he WGLC. > > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:00:21 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags To: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Message-ID: <48E5B4F5.2090309@malform.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed John Cowan 2008-10-03 07.33: > Leif Halvard Silli scripsit: > = >> It is interesting to compare the prefixes allowed for "1996", >> = >> Prefix: de [ snip ] > Not *allowed*, but *recommended*. The first means that we say you SHOULD= use 'de' > (and implicitly, SHOULD NOT use any other primary language subtag) with '= 1996'. But the question still is why the registry does not say which regions tags = "1996" is recommended used for. -- leif halvard silli ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:02:01 -0700 From: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: = Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" +1 -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran= dy Presuhn Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:37 AM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Hi - As a technical contributor... I'm deeply concerned that this thread is leading to a seriously over-specif= ied, over-engineered solution. There are several different concerns that f= olks appear to be trying to address, and I'm afraid that the net effect of = the proposals might be worse than the envisioned problems. (1) making "institution" mnemonics part of the formal structure logically l= eads to the conclusion that there should be a registry of institutions. I = really don't want to go there! (2) the "same meaning" vs "same semantics" debate gets to the heart of why = I so strongly opposed using the same variant tag for the Hanyu Pinyin ortho= graphy of Mandarin and a pinyin-like way of writing Tibetan. Our job is to= define procedures to keep the registry running smoothly so that language t= agging needs can be met. How does each interpretation effect the operation= of the review process and registry? How would each impact the developer c= ommunities of products that employ language tags? Would either approach ma= ke any difference to the people using those languages? (3) With respect to the "year" business, at some point we have to stop gild= ing this lily with more and more advice and recognize that as more and more= variant subtags are registered, it will become increasingly likely that th= e character string used for the variant will end up having little or no mne= monic value. Tough. It's unrealistic at this late stage in the process to come up with an archi= tecture for the construction of variant subtags. Doing so will only increa= ses the amount of time spent arguing about the "right" string to use for a = particular variant. THEY ARE JUST SUBTAGS, and we should *NOT* do anything= to foster the perception that they are anything more. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru End of Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 ************************************ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 01:57:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D4A28C230; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 01:57:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D656228C20C for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 01:57:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.073, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T6Z+AiFT-Qev for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 01:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F3C28C1FC for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 01:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.23]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m938teoJ016083 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 17:55:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 4f9d_0e0ec7e6_9129_11dd_9969_001d0969ab06; Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:55:40 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:34437) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 17:48:32 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081003173438.03e3ab58@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:55:14 +0900 To: "Phillips, Addison" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.a mazon.com> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 13:25 08/10/02, Phillips, Addison wrote: >> >> [chair hat on] >> I think I have seen very strong opposition to having multiple >> records with the same variant subtag, for implementation reasons, >> and nobody fighting for multiple records as such. Addison and Mark, >> unless this is already covered in -17, can I ask you to draft some >> language covering this (and only this) point? > >I already drafted it in the editor's copy and just proposed removing said >draft for lack of any consensus. draft-18 on inter-locale has the proposed text. I have read all the follow-ups, but I'm responding to this mail because that way, I can express things more clearly. [chair hat on] The above drafted text, as far as I understand, refers to: >>>> Requests to assign an additional record of a given type with an existing subtag value MUST be rejected. For example, the variant subtag 'rozaj' already exists in the registry, so adding a second record of type 'variant' with the subtag 'rozaj' is prohibited. >>>> I think that I'm able to say that we have consensus to exclude multiple records with the same variant subtag. That's exactly what the above paragraph is saying. Therefore, I instruct the editors to consider this very paragraph as part of our official post-lastcall version. I haven't been able to identify consensus beyond this specific issue. [technical hat on] I think that whatever text I have seen so far about semantics, meaning, 4-digit numbers for years, and so on, is either vague to the extent of being of no real use (two reasonable people can come to different conclusions based on the text in many cases) or is too specific, to reach consensus, tending in one or the other direction. Also, while there is in principle the hope that clearer direction in RFC 4646bis would make the work of ietf-languages easier, which would be highly desirable, I haven't seen any example where this would indeed be guaranteed. I therefore think that this is one of the points where we should stop adding additional language just to keep ourselves busy. [chair hat on] Unless I see some clear progress soon towards precise and consise text that addresses a clear need, I plan to close the discussion on further editing regarding this issue in a day or two, so that we finally can move on. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 03:14:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B70A3A6AEA; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:14:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCA903A6AEA for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:14:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BdREi7kAcpFf for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E82333A6ABF for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id BA8421C01F1; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:13:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A521C019B; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:13:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C667B007D; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:13:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:13:45 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Mark Davis Message-ID: <20081003101345.GA6502@nic.fr> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 04:23:22PM +0200, Mark Davis wrote a message of 107 lines which said: > Four digit subtags are reserved for indicating a year. Their > meaning is in reference to some significant specification or other > work associated with that year. It may have multiple prefixes: the > particular specification for a given prefix MUST be clearly indicated > in one of the Descriptions. Strongly -1 for me. While it may be a good idea to avoid registrations of 4-digits subtags, because of the risk of collision and the risk that the first one to register 1901 will deprive the others, I do not think it should be written down in the RFC. 4646bis is already too long and too detailed on some points. A related reason for suppressing this paragraph is because 4-digits subtags are just a subset of "generic" subtags ("northern" or "academy" being another common examples) and we should not legislate for just a part of the generic subtags. Such restrictions should belong to an "ietf-languages policy" (which, as John Cowan is fond of mentioning, already exists, even if it is currently unwritten). _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 03:17:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CDE728C0D6; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:17:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B0A3A6ABF for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:16:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hzggg3uh6tdV for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86C93A6A59 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 104741C020E; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:17:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B15B1C016B; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:17:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33D4A1D961; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:17:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:17:05 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Martin Duerst Message-ID: <20081003101705.GB6502@nic.fr> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20081003173438.03e3ab58@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081003173438.03e3ab58@localhost> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 05:55:14PM +0900, Martin Duerst wrote a message of 68 lines which said: > I think that I'm able to say that we have consensus to exclude multiple > records with the same variant subtag. For me, if I did not speak loudly for "multiple records with the same subtag", it is mostly in the name of compatibility with existing implementations. Otherwise, excluding multiple records should be reconsidered (or limited to an ietf-languages policy, not cast in stone in the RFC). _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 03:19:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D293C3A69DA; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D69B3A6A1D for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:19:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.416 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.416 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VbEyUfyijROQ for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E06F3A67FC for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 03:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 16CDB1C0205; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:19:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121261C016B; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:19:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 059417B0086; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:19:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:19:39 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20081003101939.GC6502@nic.fr> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Too fine-grained? (was: Re: Uniqueness of variant subtags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 08:31:36PM -0600, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 8 lines which said: > 1. to allow people to identify the language of content > 2. to allow people or computers to search for content in a particular language > 3. to allow people to specify "preferred languages" in which they > wish to receive content There are certainly other important reasons. For instance, to allow a graphical renderer or a spell checker or a speech synthetizer to apply the correct rules. Unlike 2 and 3 (where broad tagging is better), this requires fine-grain tagging. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 06:12:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E29F28C112; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 06:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93BF428C104 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 06:12:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.117, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wumRP5ucQY7i for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 06:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth19.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth19.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 37F123A698F for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 06:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16713 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2008 13:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth19.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.30) with ESMTP; 03 Oct 2008 13:13:05 -0000 Message-ID: <2E5435EE3D0B48C69C76968E47EFABA3@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:13:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: [Ltru] Prefixes (was: Re: Uniqueness of variant subtags) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TGVpZiBIYWx2YXJkIFNpbGxpIDxsaHMgYXQgbWFsZm9ybSBkb3Qgbm8+IHdyb3RlIgoKPj4+IEl0 IGlzIGludGVyZXN0aW5nIHRvIGNvbXBhcmUgdGhlIHByZWZpeGVzIGFsbG93ZWQgZm9yICIxOTk2 IiwKPj4+Cj4+PiBQcmVmaXg6IGRlCj4+Cj4+IE5vdCAqYWxsb3dlZCosIGJ1dCAqcmVjb21tZW5k ZWQqLiAgVGhlIGZpcnN0IG1lYW5zIHRoYXQgd2Ugc2F5IHlvdSAKPj4gU0hPVUxEIHVzZSAnZGUn IChhbmQgaW1wbGljaXRseSwgU0hPVUxEIE5PVCB1c2UgYW55IG90aGVyIHByaW1hcnkgCj4+IGxh bmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZykgd2l0aCAnMTk5NicuCj4KPiBCdXQgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uIHN0aWxsIGlz IHdoeSB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkgZG9lcyBub3Qgc2F5IHdoaWNoIHJlZ2lvbnMgCj4gdGFncyAiMTk5 NiIgaXMgcmVjb21tZW5kZWQgdXNlZCBmb3IuCgpUaGUgUmVnaXN0cnkgZG9lc24ndCBjdXJyZW50 bHkgaW5jbHVkZSByZWdpb24gc3VidGFncyBhcyBwYXJ0IG9mIGFueSAKUHJlZml4IGZpZWxkLiAg SW4gZmFjdCwgJ3dhZGVnaWxlJywgd2hpY2ggd2lsbCBiZSBzdWJtaXR0ZWQgdG8gSUFOQSAKdG9k YXksIGlzIHRoZSBmaXJzdCB2YXJpYW50IHdob3NlIFByZWZpeCB3aWxsIGNvbXByaXNlIGFueXRo aW5nIG90aGVyIAp0aGFuIGEgbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugc3VidGFnIGFuZCAob3B0aW9uYWxseSkgb25lIG9y IG1vcmUgdmFyaWFudCBzdWJ0YWdzLgoKVGhlIGJpZyBkYW5nZXIgd2l0aCB2YXJpYW50cyBpcyB1 c2luZyB0d28gb3IgbW9yZSB0aGF0IGFyZSBtdXR1YWxseSAKZXhjbHVzaXZlLiAgJzE5MDEnIGFu ZCAnMTk5NicgYXJlIG11dHVhbGx5IGV4Y2x1c2l2ZTsgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gCmxvZ2ljYWwgd2F5 IGluIHdoaWNoIGJvdGggY291bGQgZXZlciBiZSB1c2VkIGluIHRoZSBzYW1lIHRhZy4gIFRvIHN0 ZWVyIApwZW9wbGUgYXdheSBmcm9tIHRoaXMsIHdoZW4gYSB0YWcgd2l0aCB0d28gdmFyaWFudHMg ZG9lcyBtYWtlIHNlbnNlLCB3ZSAKZXhwbGljaXRseSBpbmRpY2F0ZSB2YXJpYW50IEEgYXMgcGFy dCBvZiB0aGUgUHJlZml4IGZvciB2YXJpYW50IEIuICBUaGUgCnN1Yi1kaWFsZWN0cyBhbmQgJzE5 OTQnIHN1Yi1zdWItZGlhbGVjdCBvZiBSZXNpYW4gYXJlIGV4YW1wbGVzIG9mIHRoaXMuCgpUaGVy ZSBpcyB1c3VhbGx5IGxlc3Mgb2YgYSBwcm9ibGVtIHVzaW5nIHJlZ2lvbiBvciBzY3JpcHQgc3Vi dGFncyAKdG9nZXRoZXIgd2l0aCBhIHZhcmlhbnQuICBUaGlzIGRvZXMgbm90IG1lYW4gdGhlIHJl c3VsdGluZyB0YWcgCm5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IGNvcnJlc3BvbmRzIHRvIGEgcmVhbC13b3JsZCBsYW5n dWFnZSB2YXJpYXRpb24sIHN1Y2ggYXMgCiJlbi1JTi1ib29udCIsIGJ1dCB0aGF0IGl0IGlzIG5v dCBsb2dpY2FsbHkgaW1wb3NzaWJsZSBpbiB0aGUgc2Vuc2UgdGhhdCAKImRlLTE5MDEtMTk5NiIg d291bGQgYmUuCgpJbiBtYW55IGNhc2VzLCB0cnlpbmcgdG8gZW51bWVyYXRlIHRoZSBwb3NzaWJs ZSByZWdpb24gc3VidGFncyB3aGljaCAKd291bGQgbWFrZSBzZW5zZSB3aXRoIGEgZ2l2ZW4gdmFy aWFudCB3b3VsZCBiZSBhIGh1Z2UgcmVzZWFyY2hpbmcgCmNoYWxsZW5nZSwgYW5kIG1pZ2h0IGJl Y29tZSB0aGUgc3ViamVjdCBvZiBwZXJwZXR1YWwgY29tcGxhaW50cyBvZiAKaW5jb21wbGV0ZW5l c3MgZXZlbiBtb3JlIHRoYW4gU3VwcHJlc3MtU2NyaXB0IGFscmVhZHkgaXMuCgpGb3IgV2FkZS1H aWxlcyBhbmQgKG1heWJlIHNvbWVkYXkpIEhhbnl1IFBpbnlpbiwgd2Ugd2lsbCBzcGVjaWZ5IGEg ClByZWZpeCBjb25zaXN0aW5nIG9mICd6aCcgd2l0aCBhIHNjcmlwdCBzdWJ0YWcgKGFuZCBub3Qg d2l0aG91dCBvbmUpIGFzIAphIGZhaXJseSBleHBsaWNpdCBpbmRpY2F0aW9uIHRoYXQgdGhlIHZh cmlhbnQgcmVhbGx5IHNob3VsZCBiZSB1c2VkIHdpdGggCnRoYXQgc2NyaXB0IHN1YnRhZy4KClRo aXMgaXMgaW5oZXJlbnRseSBvcGVuIHRvIGRlYmF0ZSBmb3IgZWFjaCBwcm9wb3NlZCB2YXJpYW50 LCBhbmQgSSBhbSAKc3VyZSBpZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyB3aWxsIGhvbGQgc3VjaCBkZWJhdGVzIHdo ZXRoZXIgd2UgYWRkIGEgcnVsZSBvciBub3QsIApzbyBJIGRvIG5vdCBzdXBwb3J0IGFkZGluZyBh IG5ldyBydWxlIHRvIGF0dGVtcHQgdG8gcmVndWxhdGUgdGhpcyAKYmVoYXZpb3IsIGVzcGVjaWFs bHkgbm90IGlmIHdlIGFyZSB0cnlpbmcgdG8gZ2V0IHRocm91Z2ggYSBMYXN0IENhbGwuCgotLQpE b3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVU TiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNo YXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 06:15:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B81D73A693F; 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03 Oct 2008 13:15:24 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:15:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: [Ltru] Last Call for draft-4645bis? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSByZXF1ZXN0IHRoYXQgdGhlIGNvLWNoYWlycyBkZWNsYXJlIGEgTGFzdCBDYWxsIG9uIApkcmFm dC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtNDY0NWJpcy0wNi4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xv cmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3Jn Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0 cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuG CgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 06:34:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E173D28C0E5; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 06:34:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ABC83A6452 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 06:34:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JUQGTGs2wusn for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 06:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC6B28C0E5 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 06:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KlkoE-0004kc-Lj; Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:35:06 +0200 Message-ID: <48E61F8A.8080708@malform.no> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:35:06 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20081003173438.03e3ab58@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081003173438.03e3ab58@localhost> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst 2008-10-03 10.55: > At 13:25 08/10/02, Phillips, Addison wrote: > [technical hat on] > > I think that whatever text I have seen so far about semantics, meaning, > 4-digit numbers for years, and so on, is either vague to the extent of > being of no real use (two reasonable people can come to different > conclusions based on the text in many cases) or is too specific, > to reach consensus, tending in one or the other direction. Also, while > there is in principle the hope that clearer direction in RFC 4646bis > would make the work of ietf-languages easier, which would be highly > desirable, I haven't seen any example where this would indeed be > guaranteed. I therefore think that this is one of the points where > we should stop adding additional language just to keep ourselves busy. > > > [chair hat on] > > Unless I see some clear progress soon towards precise and consise text > that addresses a clear need, I plan to close the discussion on > further editing regarding this issue in a day or two, so that we > finally can move on. For progress/possible consesnsus, I propose that years should be reserved to "temporary" (in the meaning 'for the time being') revisions of an existing "thing". I suggest that a romanisation is not a temporary change to an existing language and its norms (except in a derived way). But it may be a temporary version of an existing romanisation scheme. Thuse first should the kind of romanisation be mentioned in one variant tag, then in another subtag should the year come. For the green book/white book example, one subtag should have the green vs white book. And a next subtag should mention the year. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 07:18:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FBD93A698F; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:18:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848E63A698F for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:17:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b+kU865o2kFq for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A3473A6932 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KllU8-0006Sm-9f; Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:18:24 -0400 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:18:24 -0400 To: Lang =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Message-ID: <20081003141824.GR31839@mercury.ccil.org> References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07CE@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07CE@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Lang G=E9rard scripsit: > 0-Let me suggest that we should adopt a precise, uniform and recognized > terminology when discussing about transformations between languages > and/or scripts. As far as I can tell, we are currently using the terms "transcription", "transliteration", "romanization", "language" (except that we do not require a language community to be large), and "script" in the same senses as UNGEGN. We have not used the broader terms "transformation" (meaning translation, transcription, or transliteration) and "conversion" (meaning transcription or transliteration), but they are reasonable additions to the toolkit. The term "translation" is not relevant to our work. We also use a different taxonomy of scripts, dividing them into alphabets, abjads, abugidas, syllabaries, and logosyllabaries: see http://www.unicode.org/glossary for terse definitions, or Section 6.1 of the Unicode Standard for detailed explanations (available online at http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.0.0/ch06.pdf . -- = John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org 'Tis the Linux rebellion / Let coders take their place, The Linux-nationale / Shall Microsoft outpace, We can write better programs / Our CPUs won't stall, So raise the penguin banner of / The Linux-nationale. --Greg Baker _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 07:41:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0623A68C6; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4B13A6820 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iUoL+vVRCCn7 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.insee.fr (hermes.insee.fr [194.254.38.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3605D3A68C6 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by hermes.insee.fr (Insee Mail server) with ESMTP id 61BAD5DC07C; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:41:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA24794020; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:41:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id shSdzVd1xhwu; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:41:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CC479401E; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:41:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.51]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:41:11 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:41:11 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07D4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <20081003141824.GR31839@mercury.ccil.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 thread-index: AcklYumd/yfdxVhNTe2Q8f9zS5gZRgAAPCEQ References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07CE@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <20081003141824.GR31839@mercury.ccil.org> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: "John Cowan" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2008 14:41:11.0457 (UTC) FILETIME=[1451D910:01C92566] Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I do not think that all variants of "Sign languages" taken care of inside I= SO 639 and IANA's Registry could enter under the"means of verbal communicat= ion" that are described as a condition for a language by UNGEGN. This question of definition of "languages" is clearly linked with the fact = that the english word "language" has two possible interpretations in french: -(i) "langue", that is linked whith "tongue" (that has the same translation= "langue" in french), evidently connected with "verbal communication" and o= riented on the semantics (this interpretation clearly excludes all forms of= signed or only symbolic languages); -(ii) "language", that is more extensive and more oriented on syntax, and a= llows to take care of sign languages as well as many sorts of artificial an= d symbolic languages, like informatics, or "chess game description", ...... The french title of ISO 639 is "Codes pour la representation des noms de LA= NGUES" that , in principle, does not include Sign languages (that are not "= verbal communication means"). G=E9rard LANG -----Message d'origine----- De : John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] = Envoy=E9 : vendredi 3 octobre 2008 16:18 =C0 : Lang G=E9rard Cc : ltru@ietf.org; ietf-languages@iana.org Objet : Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 Lang G=E9rard scripsit: > 0-Let me suggest that we should adopt a precise, uniform and = > recognized terminology when discussing about transformations between = > languages and/or scripts. As far as I can tell, we are currently using the terms "transcription", "tr= ansliteration", "romanization", "language" (except that we do not require a= language community to be large), and "script" in the same senses as UNGEGN= . We have not used the broader terms "transformation" (meaning translation= , transcription, or transliteration) and "conversion" (meaning transcriptio= n or transliteration), but they are reasonable additions to the toolkit. T= he term "translation" is not relevant to our work. We also use a different taxonomy of scripts, dividing them into alphabets, = abjads, abugidas, syllabaries, and logosyllabaries: see http://www.unicode.= org/glossary for terse definitions, or Section 6.1 of the Unicode Standard = for detailed explanations (available online at http://www.unicode.org/versi= ons/Unicode5.0.0/ch06.pdf . -- = John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org 'Tis the Linux rebellion / Let coders take their place, The Linux-nationale= / Shall Microsoft outpace, We can write better programs / Our CPUs won't s= tall, So raise the penguin banner of / The Linux-nationale. --Greg Baker _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 08:10:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B3FB28C232; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:10:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B673A6A86 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:10:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fyKv3RJmaG41 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.175]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09793A698E for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 27so1724519wfd.31 for ; Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:11:00 -0700 (PDT) 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<41a006820810030811g470883d6i5779886a120c1851@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 17:11:00 +0200 From: "Gerard Meijssen" To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Lang_G=C3=A9rard?=" In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07D4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07CE@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <20081003141824.GR31839@mercury.ccil.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07D4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2080377046==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2080377046== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8761_16745617.1223046660604" 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[127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8954D3A6B64 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OHMZIJ4cFQh0 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc1-s26.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc1-s26.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5883E3A6B62 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W53 ([65.55.116.8]) by blu0-omc1-s26.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:15:04 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [74.254.68.141] From: CE Whitehead To: , Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:15:04 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2008 15:15:04.0246 (UTC) FILETIME=[CFF4D560:01C9256A] Subject: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Are you saying that "langage" is a better French translation of "langua= ges" in "Codes for the representation of names of languages" than is "langu= e"? Or what? (I do think it's possible to translate "sign language" as "langue des signes" Is this correct?) However, "le tresor de la langue francaise" online (http://atilf.atilf.fr/t= lf.htm) seems to largely agree with your definition of "langue" -- as somet= hing pertaining to the "tongue" or to things that remind one of a "tongue" = (such as a "the tongue of a flame") Best, C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com Lang G=E9rard gerard.lang at insee.fr = Fri Oct 3 16:41:11 CEST 2008 > I do not think that all variants of "Sign languages" taken care of inside= ISO 639 and IANA's Registry could enter under the"means of verbal communic= ation" that are described as a condition for a language by UNGEGN. > This question of definition of "languages" is clearly linked with the fac= t that the english word "language" has two possible interpretations in fren= ch: > -(i) "langue", that is linked whith "tongue" (that has the same translati= on "langue" in french), evidently connected with "verbal communication" and= oriented on the semantics (this interpretation clearly excludes all forms = of signed or only symbolic languages); > -(ii) "language", that is more extensive and more oriented on syntax, and= allows to take care of sign languages as well as many sorts of artificial = and symbolic languages, like informatics, or "chess game description", ....= .. > The french title of ISO 639 is "Codes pour la representation des noms de = LANGUES" that , in principle, does not include Sign languages (that are not= "verbal communication means"). > G=E9rard LANG _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 08:23:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700B128C2B8; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:23:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E679428C2B7 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:23:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3DC68FxzpjyY for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE8C28C2C4 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KlmSv-0005KE-CE; Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:21:13 -0400 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:21:13 -0400 To: CE Whitehead Message-ID: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org CE Whitehead scripsit: > However, "le tresor de la langue francaise" online > (http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlf.htm) seems to largely agree with your > definition of "langue" -- as something pertaining to the "tongue" or to > things that remind one of a "tongue" (such as a "the tongue of a flame") Etymology is not a key to meaning. "Verbal communication" is communication in words, and although sign languages don't involve the tongue, they definitely have words. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Nobody expects the RESTifarian Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise ... surprise and tedium ... tedium and surprise .... Our two weapons are tedium and surprise ... and ruthless disregard for unpleasant facts.... Our three weapons are tedium, surprise, and ruthless disregard ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Roy Fielding.... _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 08:28:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4CF528C28B; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:28:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EDE28C252 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:28:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.290, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id weVvKgGZIU2R for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB1628C295 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:28:18 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=haTVftX6R1XsIXhcbXYm/rQpWq77/41mb3IMWWO+xyCddAmmuKHT5Wy7bx7S/rVu; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.85.110] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KlmZc-0000wx-1d for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:28:08 -0400 Message-ID: <002801c9256c$b0faec60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:28:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e467832a203ca7db5e7bba33b03664ed50350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.85.110 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As co-chair... This sub-thread is off-topic. Support for sign languages was a specific co= nsideration in the chartering of this working group. Please limit discussion to legiti= mate last-call issues. Randy ----- Original Message ----- = From: "CE Whitehead" To: ; Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:15 AM Subject: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 Hi, Are you saying that "langage" is a better French translation of "langua= ges" in "Codes for the representation of names of languages" than is "langue"? Or what? (I do think it's possible to translate "sign language" as "langue des signes" Is this correct?) However, "le tresor de la langue francaise" online (http://atilf.atilf.fr/t= lf.htm) seems to largely agree with your definition of "langue" -- as something pertaining to the "tongue" or to things that remin= d one of a "tongue" (such as a "the tongue of a flame") Best, C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com Lang G=E9rard gerard.lang at insee.fr Fri Oct 3 16:41:11 CEST 2008 > I do not think that all variants of "Sign languages" taken care of inside= ISO 639 and IANA's Registry could enter under the"means of verbal communication" that are described as a condition for a language b= y UNGEGN. > This question of definition of "languages" is clearly linked with the fac= t that the english word "language" has two possible interpretations in french: > -(i) "langue", that is linked whith "tongue" (that has the same translati= on "langue" in french), evidently connected with "verbal communication" and oriented on the semantics (this interpretation clearly e= xcludes all forms of signed or only symbolic languages); > -(ii) "language", that is more extensive and more oriented on syntax, and= allows to take care of sign languages as well as many sorts of artificial and symbolic languages, like informatics, or "chess gam= e description", ...... > The french title of ISO 639 is "Codes pour la representation des noms de = LANGUES" that , in principle, does not include Sign languages (that are not "verbal communication means"). > G=E9rard LANG _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 08:37:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AC9228C28B; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:37:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C12028C28B for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:37:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wPYat-VCIE-j for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F77328C0E9 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:37:07 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,357,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="116934067" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Oct 2008 15:37:35 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m93FbYBU021361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 3 Oct 2008 15:37:35 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:37:34 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Mark Davis Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:36:25 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags Thread-Index: AcklQN2PElciae03RF2wgxQQxkgnUgALJKgQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C726A18@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <907B23283D8A4A63989E9BBE9D5FBFE8@DGBP7M81> <48E406F8.1050900@malform.no> <6.0.0.20.2.20081002095015.09a23070@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C65C600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20810020011l33c5ccc1r95ffa182a0f527cd@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20810020118i7967d579o6058def92efa31ef@mail.gmail.com> <20081002135029.GF31839@mercury.ccil.org> <30b660a20810020723g40356d34y688b46cc13673a9e@mail.gmail.com> <20081003101345.GA6502@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20081003101345.GA6502@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Uniqueness of variant subtags X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > Strongly -1 for me. While it may be a good idea to avoid > registrations > of 4-digits subtags, because of the risk of collision and the risk > that the first one to register 1901 will deprive the others, I do > not > think it should be written down in the RFC. 4646bis is already too > long and too detailed on some points. +1 > > A related reason for suppressing this paragraph is because 4-digits > subtags are just a subset of "generic" subtags ("northern" or > "academy" being another common examples) and we should not > legislate for just a part of the generic subtags. I don't agree. Historically, year subtags have not been generic. Attempts to genericize them (and, by extension, all variants) are downright dangerous and, I think, wrongheaded. > > Such restrictions should belong to an "ietf-languages policy" > (which, > as John Cowan is fond of mentioning, already exists, even if it is > currently unwritten). > Indeed. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Oct 4 00:54:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F0F3A6870; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:54:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49FA43A6870 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:54:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oA+vY0tUrrlD for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043473A6861 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c2f2345c1.dhcp.bluecom.no ([193.69.35.47]) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Km1yp-0001QM-1h; Sat, 04 Oct 2008 09:55:11 +0200 Message-ID: <48E7215E.3060005@malform.no> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 09:55:10 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group References: <2E5435EE3D0B48C69C76968E47EFABA3@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <2E5435EE3D0B48C69C76968E47EFABA3@DGBP7M81> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell 2008-10-03 15.13: > Leif Halvard Silli wrote" > >>>> It is interesting to compare the prefixes allowed for "1996", >>>> >>>> Prefix: de >>> >>> Not *allowed*, but *recommended*. The first means that we say you >>> SHOULD use 'de' (and implicitly, SHOULD NOT use any other primary >>> language subtag) with '1996'. >> >> But the question still is why the registry does not say which regions >> tags "1996" is recommended used for. > > The Registry doesn't currently include region subtags as part of any > Prefix field. In fact, 'wadegile', which will be submitted to IANA > today, is the first variant whose Prefix will comprise anything other > than a language subtag and (optionally) one or more variant subtags. > > The big danger with variants is using two or more that are mutually > exclusive. '1901' and '1996' are mutually exclusive; there is no > logical way in which both could ever be used in the same tag. To steer > people away from this, when a tag with two variants does make sense, we > explicitly indicate variant A as part of the Prefix for variant B. The > sub-dialects and '1994' sub-sub-dialect of Resian are examples of this. Unless we say that year digits should only be used to "date" an existing language or norm - and not itself serve as reference to a any language or norm - we could claim that 1996 is a modification of 1901. And thus we could claim that "de-1901-1996" would be meaningful. (Though redundant.) So if wadegile would be modified in the future, one could register a year for the new - or the old (or both) - revision, which would have to be preceded by the wadegile subtag. (Allthough, in real life, one could probably just skip adding the year subtag.) The same would be the case for the groene and witte boekje for the Dutch language: Allthough there are new revisions of those books, the most important thing would probably be to be able to tag whether one uses the one or the other. By keeping a strict year meaning to year subtags, we can help that registrants avoid such things [that I proposed] as 1996groene and 1996witte. > There is usually less of a problem using region or script subtags > together with a variant. This does not mean the resulting tag > necessarily corresponds to a real-world language variation, such as > "en-IN-boont", but that it is not logically impossible in the sense that > "de-1901-1996" would be. This to me suggests to that, in reality, there is consesus that year subtags are strictly to be understood as years. Or else, as mentioned above, "de-1901-1996" could be meaningful. > In many cases, trying to enumerate the possible region subtags which > would make sense with a given variant would be a huge researching > challenge, and might become the subject of perpetual complaints of > incompleteness even more than Suppress-Script already is. Whether it is a huge undertaking or not, must be researched first of all, in each case. For "1996", it was an agreement between 4 countries, so it should be pretty simple to conclude. Further more, we do agree that one should not make tags longer than necessary. But the fact of the matter is that a presice listing of the region tags for which a year (or other) subtag applies, could help keeping tags short. How? Well, as you know, people add their own meanings into things, and could very well "figure out" that "de-NO" would be fine, since I live in Norway. But if they see that, "oh, it is not recommended to use "de-NO-1996", then this could lead to a very good thing, namely that the tagger would pick a more approriate tag, such as "de-1996" or "de-DE-1996". If you get what I mean. > For Wade-Giles and (maybe someday) Hanyu Pinyin, we will specify a > Prefix consisting of 'zh' with a script subtag (and not without one) as > a fairly explicit indication that the variant really should be used with > that script subtag. That sounds very meaningful. > This is inherently open to debate for each proposed variant, and I am > sure ietf-languages will hold such debates whether we add a rule or not, > so I do not support adding a new rule to attempt to regulate this > behavior, especially not if we are trying to get through a Last Call. Of course it must be open to debate - we cannot know in advance what one want to register and how it relatest to "reality". And I do not think that the current lack of recommended region subtag prefixes for 1996 is a fundamental error. But I do think that it would be much more in line with the strict year meaning that you apply to "-1996" to list the region variants of "de" for which the 1996 dating is good. -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Oct 4 09:43:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779A03A690E; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:43:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F4893A688A for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:43:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.963 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.963 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.364, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id InHW8YmWFl8K for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B933A690E for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:43:02 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,361,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="56440508" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 04 Oct 2008 16:43:32 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m94GhVjm009489 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:43:31 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:43:31 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Leif Halvard Silli , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:41:42 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Prefixes Thread-Index: Ackl9pDqN/sLUhDeRMmsp45Q+EvncQAR0kAg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7FAFDB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <2E5435EE3D0B48C69C76968E47EFABA3@DGBP7M81> <48E7215E.3060005@malform.no> In-Reply-To: <48E7215E.3060005@malform.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > > The big danger with variants is using two or more that are > mutually > > exclusive. '1901' and '1996' are mutually exclusive; there is no > > logical way in which both could ever be used in the same tag. To > steer > > people away from this, when a tag with two variants does make > sense, we > > explicitly indicate variant A as part of the Prefix for variant B. > The > > sub-dialects and '1994' sub-sub-dialect of Resian are examples of > this. > > > Unless we say that year digits should only be used to "date" an > existing language or norm - and not itself serve as reference to a > any language or norm - we could claim that 1996 is a modification > of 1901. And thus we could claim that "de-1901-1996" would be > meaningful. (Though redundant.) We could claim all sorts of things, but the current RFC already spells this particular case out and there exists several years of usage--predating RFC4646--that say that 1996 is not a modification of 1901. > > By keeping a strict year meaning to year subtags, we can help that > registrants avoid such things [that I proposed] as 1996groene and > 1996witte. Why? More importantly, isn't that a matter for the registration process to determine/enforce, rather than the RFC? > > This to me suggests to that, in reality, there is consesus that > year subtags are strictly to be understood as years. Or else, as > mentioned above, "de-1901-1996" could be meaningful. No. The two German subtags you cite above are mutually exclusive because they both refer to specific orthographies. That is, language tag variant subtags refer to variations in language, not to years. Let's use a more useful example. 'boont' and 'scottish' are both registered variant subtags that can be applied to English (en). They are mutually exclusive because they refer to specific regional dialects/jargons. One cannot speak Boontling Scottish-wise or vice versa. Replacing 'boont' with '1890' and 'scottish' with (I dunno, let's pick a date) '1707' doesn't make the underlying language variations any different or mutually compatible. > > > This is inherently open to debate for each proposed variant, and > I am > > sure ietf-languages will hold such debates whether we add a rule > or not, > > so I do not support adding a new rule to attempt to regulate this > > behavior, especially not if we are trying to get through a Last > Call. > > > Of course it must be open to debate - we cannot know in advance > what one want to register and how it relatest to "reality". And I > do not think that the current lack of recommended region subtag > prefixes for 1996 is a fundamental error. But I do think that it > would be much more in line with the strict year meaning that you > apply to "-1996" to list the region variants of "de" for which the > 1996 dating is good. Really, when the prefix omits all mention of scripts or regions, we have the positive ability to use whichever ones make sense, even if the registrants overlooked and omitted one. I suspect that remnant populations might use 1901 or 1996, depending, with "de-NA". I think the problem here is that you're suggesting that we should try to register what all of the "correct" potential tags are. But the generative nature of language tags is based on a quite different philosophy: we don't have to do the detailed linguistic research and weigh all manner of data to provide such things (as the old RFC 3066 kind of required). Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 5 17:32:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8051A3A68E5; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:32:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF453A68E5 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:32:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.69 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.69 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DXab2Y7ZO6yy for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851423A68D8 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.108.246.getinternet.no ([84.208.108.246] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Kme26-0001dC-HZ; Mon, 06 Oct 2008 02:33:06 +0200 Message-ID: <48E95CC2.9030402@malform.no> Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 02:33:06 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <2E5435EE3D0B48C69C76968E47EFABA3@DGBP7M81> <48E7215E.3060005@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7FAFDB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7FAFDB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison 2008-10-04 18.41: >>> The big danger with variants is using two or more that are >>> mutually >>> exclusive. '1901' and '1996' are mutually exclusive; there >>> is no logical way in which both could ever be used in the >>> same tag. [...] >> Unless we say that year digits should only be used to "date" >> an existing language or norm - and not itself serve as >> reference to a any language or norm - we could claim that >> 1996 is a modification of 1901. And thus we could claim that >> "de-1901-1996" would be meaningful. (Though redundant.) > > We could claim all sorts of things, but the current RFC already > spells this particular case out and there exists several years > of usage--predating RFC4646--that say that 1996 is not a > modification of 1901. I don't think the RFC goes into detail about development of German ortography and how 1996 relates to 1901 in that sense. What you mean is that we cannot, per the RFC and its history, add 1996 to the 1901 subtag, in order to modify what the 1901 subtag means. (Btw, I never suggested that de-1901-1996 was good tagging, I only discussed what is "obvious" in this case.) >> By keeping a strict year meaning to year subtags, we can help >> that registrants avoid such things [that I proposed] as >> 1996groene and 1996witte. > > Why? More importantly, isn't that a matter for the registration > process to determine/enforce, rather than the RFC? Because several have pointed out that years could be a good thing to use in tags. Determine/enforce? No. Only advice. >> This to me suggests to that, in reality, there is consesus >> that year subtags are strictly to be understood as years. Or >> else, as mentioned above, "de-1901-1996" could be meaningful. > > No. > > The two German subtags you cite above are mutually exclusive > because they both refer to specific orthographies. That is, > language tag variant subtags refer to variations in language, > not to years. I don't see that we fundamentally disagree when you say that the years refers to "variations in language, not to year". Perhaps we can agree that years refers to an /dated/ variation of some norm? If 'de-1996" means "Norm of Written German, the 1996 reform", then I would say that "Norm of Written German" is represented by "de" (which also includes the suppressed '-latn'), and that "1996" represents "the 1996 reform". This does not mean that "1996" only means the year - after all, it is registered as an extension of the "de" subtag. But if we go the full route in the other direction, then we could claim full autonomy and just use lang="1996". The dated language norm in question here is "Written Hochdeutsch" - which is a norm that normally is referred to with the tag "de" or "de" plus a region subtag. I could in fact "(mis)use" "de-1996" to signify "written form". But that very fact does not mean that it is "1996" which means "written form". The "written form" is hidden in the "de" tag. Or else, we could not have applied "1996" to it. > Let's use a more useful example. 'boont' and 'scottish' are > both registered variant subtags that can be applied to English > (en). They are mutually exclusive because they refer to > specific regional dialects/jargons. One cannot speak Boontling > Scottish-wise or vice versa. Replacing 'boont' with '1890' and > 'scottish' with (I dunno, let's pick a date) '1707' doesn't > make the underlying language variations any different or > mutually compatible. If 'boont' was a development - aka (sub)dialect - of scotish, then 'en-scottish-boont' and/or "en-1707-1890" would be OK. But contrary to that artificial example, 1996 and 1901 refers to the written norm of the same German "dialect". I think it is your intepretation of years (which is leaning towards an autonomy understanding of what the years represents) which is most at risk of allowing "de-1901-1996". The normal assumtion is that a "naked" language subtag, such as 'de', refers to a language represented by a standardnorm. And so both 1901 and 1996 refers to a dated variant of the standard written norm of German. >>> This is inherently open to debate for each proposed >>> variant, and I am >>> sure ietf-languages will hold such debates whether we add a >>> rule or not, >>> so I do not support adding a new rule to attempt to >>> regulate this behavior, especially not if we are trying to >>> get through a Last Call. >> >> Of course it must be open to debate - we cannot know in >> advance what one want to register and how it relatest to >> "reality". And I do not think that the current lack of >> recommended region subtag prefixes for 1996 is a fundamental >> error. But I do think that it would be much more in line with >> the strict year meaning that you apply to "-1996" to list the >> region variants of "de" for which the 1996 dating is good. > > Really, when the prefix omits all mention of scripts or > regions, we have the positive ability to use whichever ones > make sense, Well, here, I must say that I have taken in what Doug said: the supress latin script for "de" is valid for 1996. > even if the registrants overlooked and omitted one. > I suspect that remnant populations might use 1901 or 1996, > depending, with "de-NA". The keyword here is 'overlooked'. > I think the problem here is that you're suggesting that we > should try to register what all of the "correct" potential tags > are. But the generative nature of language tags is based on a > quite different philosophy: we don't have to do the detailed > linguistic research and weigh all manner of data to provide > such things (as the old RFC 3066 kind of required). Resian, its subdialects and the 1994 subtag was registered as a result of detailed linguistic research. I feel that here you are saying almost the opposite of what you claim to be saying. Example: Let's say they made a reform in Canadian French and chose "2008" as subtag for that reform. You then seem to be of the opinion that one could not put in the registry that the recommended prefix should be "fr" and "fr-CA". Because, before you would allow the Quebecians to be *that* spesific with regard to the prefix, you have a whole list of linguistic questions that must be answered before they should be allowed to claim that their own reform was only relevant to Quebec French. So it seems like the 1996 subtag should have registered the region subtags it was good for - because, it was known which it was good for - it did not require investigation, it was 4 countries which agreed. And John has told that it is not forbidden to use 1996 with any other region tag than the ones it is recommended for. So, if we really agree about that, then, if it is relevant, one can just add 1996 to another region subtag, despite its lack of recommendation. (And if the usecase is really really relevant, one can just augment the list of prefixes in the next revision.) -- leif halvard silli _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 5 19:56:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8EFC3A697D; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:56:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 591D43A6915 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:56:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.263 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.263 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.656, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_DOB=0.732, RCVD_IN_DOB=1.103, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GBuqdaE9K2No for ; 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charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSBkbyBub3Qgc3VwcG9ydCBhbnkgcHJvcG9zYWwgdG8gYWRkIHdvcmRpbmcgdG8gZHJhZnQtNDY0 NmJpcyB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIApsaW1pdCB0aGUgc3RydWN0dXJlIG9mIHZhcmlhbnQgc3VidGFncywg b3IgcmVzdHJpY3Qgd2hhdCBjZXJ0YWluIApjaGFyYWN0ZXJzIG9yIHN1YnN0cmluZ3MgbWVhbiB3 aXRoaW4gYSB2YXJpYW50IG9yIGhvdyB0aGV5IGNvdWxkIGJlIAp1c2VkLiAgSW4gcGFydGljdWxh ciwgSSBkbyBub3Qgc3VwcG9ydCBhbnkgYWRkaXRpb25hbCB3b3JkaW5nIHRvIGxpbWl0IAp0aGUg dXNlIG9mIDQtZGlnaXQgbnVtYmVycyB3aXRoaW4gdmFyaWFudHMuCgpJIGRvIGhhdmUgb3Bpbmlv bnMgYWJvdXQgaG93IDQtZGlnaXQgbnVtYmVycyBzaG91bGQgYmUgdXNlZCBpbiB2YXJpYW50cywg CmJ1dCB0aGlzIGlzIHRoZSByZXNwb25zaWJpbGl0eSBvZiBpZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyBhbmQgdGhl IFJldmlld2VyLCBub3QgCnNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGF0IHNob3VsZCBiZSBkaWN0YXRlZCBieSB0aGUg UkZDLgoKV2UgYWxyZWFkeSBoYXZlIHRvbyBtdWNoIG1pY3JvbWFuYWdlbWVudCBvZiB0aGlzIHNv cnQgaW4gdGhlIGRyYWZ0LiAKTGV0J3MgZmluaXNoLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50 b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdl bGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIu aHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1 YWdlcyAgy4YKCgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 5 20:45:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8773A69D3; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:45:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F153A67A4 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:45:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.586, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lz124GV+GRZz for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209F73A69DE for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:45:03 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,366,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="118215724" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 06 Oct 2008 03:45:37 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m963jbbP018338; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 03:45:37 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.28]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:45:37 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:45:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Prefixes Thread-Index: AcknX0s/LhfA4ymfRRCIdD3ZIz8IZgABpm0A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7FB30A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <2E5435EE3D0B48C69C76968E47EFABA3@DGBP7M81> <48E7215E.3060005@malform.no> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014C7FAFDB@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <48E95CC2.9030402@malform.no> <9EABC672AF7B4674BFC775853454173E@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <9EABC672AF7B4674BFC775853454173E@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org KzENCg0KSSBzb21laG93IHRoaW5rIDQtZGlnaXQgc3VidGFncyBhbmQgc3VidGFnIHNlcXVlbmNl cyB3aWxsIHRha2UgY2FyZSBvZiB0aGVtc2VsdmVzIDstKS4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29u IFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRp b25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4NCg0K DQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRm Lm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24NCj4gQmVoYWxmIE9mIERvdWcg RXdlbGwNCj4gU2VudDogU3VuZGF5LCBPY3RvYmVyIDA1LCAyMDA4IDc6NTcgUE0NCj4gVG86IExU UlUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cA0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0x0cnVdIFByZWZpeGVzDQo+IA0KPiBJ IGRvIG5vdCBzdXBwb3J0IGFueSBwcm9wb3NhbCB0byBhZGQgd29yZGluZyB0byBkcmFmdC00NjQ2 YmlzIHRoYXQNCj4gd291bGQNCj4gbGltaXQgdGhlIHN0cnVjdHVyZSBvZiB2YXJpYW50IHN1YnRh Z3MsIG9yIHJlc3RyaWN0IHdoYXQgY2VydGFpbg0KPiBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzIG9yIHN1YnN0cmluZ3Mg bWVhbiB3aXRoaW4gYSB2YXJpYW50IG9yIGhvdyB0aGV5IGNvdWxkIGJlDQo+IHVzZWQuICBJbiBw YXJ0aWN1bGFyLCBJIGRvIG5vdCBzdXBwb3J0IGFueSBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIHdvcmRpbmcgdG8NCj4g bGltaXQNCj4gdGhlIHVzZSBvZiA0LWRpZ2l0IG51bWJlcnMgd2l0aGluIHZhcmlhbnRzLg0KPiAN Cj4gSSBkbyBoYXZlIG9waW5pb25zIGFib3V0IGhvdyA0LWRpZ2l0IG51bWJlcnMgc2hvdWxkIGJl IHVzZWQgaW4NCj4gdmFyaWFudHMsDQo+IGJ1dCB0aGlzIGlzIHRoZSByZXNwb25zaWJpbGl0eSBv ZiBpZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyBhbmQgdGhlIFJldmlld2VyLA0KPiBub3QNCj4gc29tZXRoaW5nIHRo YXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGRpY3RhdGVkIGJ5IHRoZSBSRkMuDQo+IA0KPiBXZSBhbHJlYWR5IGhhdmUg dG9vIG11Y2ggbWljcm9tYW5hZ2VtZW50IG9mIHRoaXMgc29ydCBpbiB0aGUgZHJhZnQuDQo+IExl dCdzIGZpbmlzaC4NCj4gDQo+IC0tDQo+IERvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFk bywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNA0KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3Jn DQo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwN Cj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFn ZXMgIMuGDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0 cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGll dGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 6 01:27:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D73DB3A6A51; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 01:27:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26AF3A6A4B for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 01:27:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_50=0.001, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y4tLs9Gq3qAV for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 01:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.insee.fr (hermes.insee.fr [194.254.38.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E4A3A69BB for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 01:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by hermes.insee.fr (Insee Mail server) with ESMTP id 6EB5B5DC024; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:27:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CBD979401E; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:27:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id clYbBxsX2pV9; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:27:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C5B2794020; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:27:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.51]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:27:12 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:27:12 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms thread-index: Ackla77LN0EHvu9sTlqbTQF4EpzOIgCE3KQQ References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: "John Cowan" , "CE Whitehead" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2008 08:27:12.0302 (UTC) FILETIME=[54C7C4E0:01C9278D] Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear John Cowan, 1-I made a terrible mistake. The second possible interpretation of the engl= ish word "language" in french reads "langage", not "language". So much for = me, maybe too much Neglish is not good for my french ! 2-I am happy to understand that you plainly approve at least 7 of the 8 def= initions I selected from UNGEGN's Manual M 85. 3-Anyway, I found no definition for the term "LANGUAGE" inside the GLOSSARY= OF UNICODE TERMS source you mentionned. Nor did I find any definition conc= erning the terms "CONVERSION", "ROMANIZATION", "TRANSLATION", TRANSCRIPTION= " or "TRANSLITERATION". I found a definition for the term "SCRIPT" that seems in line, and perfectl= y compatible with the definition given by UNGEGN. I also found in the glossary a definition for "TRANSFORMATION FORMAT" (and = also one for "TRANSCODING"), so it is difficult for me to think that "TRANS= FORMATION" is not a concept used by UNICODE. 4-I am certainly not enough expert in english language to decide if "Sign l= anguage" can be considered to be covered by "verbal communication", that ne= vertheless seems to me have a flavour of "oral communication". Anyway, I do= not see any possibility that "pronunciation of words" could cover "Sign la= nguages". 5-Coming back to the proper interpretation in french of the english word "l= anguage", I verified that from the beginning (Recommendation ISO 639 [Novem= ber 1967] "Symbols for Languages, Countries and Authorities// Indicatifs de= LANGUES, de pays et d'autorit=E9s", and with strictly no exception, ISO 63= 9 systematically translated the english word "Language" by the french word = "langue" and not by "langage". This is also the case for UNGEGN's Manual M5= 8, that never uses the french word "langage". So, I have absolutely no doubt that "langue" is the proper french interpret= ation for "Language" inside ISO 639, as the general title of this standard = and as UNGEGN interpretation both prove. And I maintain that, under this clear interpretation, "Sign languages" shou= ld not be taken inside ISO 639. This is also reinforced by the fact that no "Sign Language" was present ins= ide the publications of ISO 639 (1988) or ISO 639-2 (1998), or even ISO 639= -1 (2002).But, a collective "Sign Languages", with alpha-3 code element "sg= n" was added by ISO 639/RA-JAC inside ISO 639-2 on 2000-02-18 only, with no= corresponding alpha-2 code element. = This addition does not seem in line with the scope of ISO 639-2, whose "1 = Scope" writes : " This part of ISO 639 provides two sets of three-letter alphabetic codes = for the representation of names of languages, one for TERMINOLOGY applicati= ons, and the other for BIBLIOGRAPHIC applications...." Moreover, ISO 639-5 (2008), that also uses "familles de langues" and "group= es de langues", recognizes "sgn" as a group of languages, so that ideally "= sgn" should be suppressed inside ISO 639-2 to be only mentionned inside IS= O 639-5. And in this case, there would be strictly no mention of any form o= f "Sign languages" inside ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2. Bien cordialement. G=E9rard LANG "L=E0 o=F9 il n'y a pas de loi, Il y a quand m=EAme la conscience" Publilius Syrus (1er si=E8cle avant J.-C.) -----Message d'origine----- De : ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@al= vestrand.no] De la part de John Cowan Envoy=E9 : vendredi 3 octobre 2008 17:21 =C0 : CE Whitehead Cc : ietf-languages@iana.org; ltru@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 CE Whitehead scripsit: > However, "le tresor de la langue francaise" online > (http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlf.htm) seems to largely agree with your = > definition of "langue" -- as something pertaining to the "tongue" or = > to things that remind one of a "tongue" (such as a "the tongue of a = > flame") Etymology is not a key to meaning. "Verbal communication" is communication= in words, and although sign languages don't involve the tongue, they defin= itely have words. -- = John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Nobody expects the RESTifarian Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise .= .. surprise and tedium ... tedium and surprise .... Our two weapons are tedium and surprise ... and ruthless disregard for unpl= easant facts.... Our three weapons are tedium, surprise, and ruthless disr= egard ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Roy Fielding.... _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 6 03:36:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E232F28C1D8; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 03:36:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946583A6AB4 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 03:36:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.937, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a2wcpefNE2yO for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 03:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64F93A6AA4 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 03:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m96AZor5001491 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:35:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 6238_8b333ef8_9392_11dd_8b9e_0014221fa3c9; Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:35:50 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:52853) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:28:37 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:09:34 +0900 To: Lang G=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCcVMbKEI=?=ard , "John Cowan" , "CE Whitehead" , Lang G=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCcVMbKEI=?=ard From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.inse e.intra> References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1016004233==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1016004233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Gerard, [co-chair hat on] Unless you have a concrete suggestion re. one of the two LTRU documents being worked on, please refrain from cc'ing ltru@ietf.org (or at least mark your postings with [OT] (off topic)). Thanks! [I'm not responsible for ietf-languages@iana.org.] See below for a different interpretation re. sign languages. Regards, Martin. At 17:27 08/10/06, Lang G$BqS(Bard wrote: >Dear John Cowan, >5-Coming back to the proper interpretation in french of the english word >"language", I verified that from the beginning (Recommendation ISO 639 >[November 1967] "Symbols for Languages, Countries and Authorities// >Indicatifs de LANGUES, de pays et d'autorit$BqT(B", and with strictly no >exception, ISO 639 systematically translated the english word "Language" by >the french word "langue" and not by "langage". This is also the case for >UNGEGN's Manual M58, that never uses the french word "langage". >So, I have absolutely no doubt that "langue" is the proper french >interpretation for "Language" inside ISO 639, as the general title of this >standard and as UNGEGN interpretation both prove. >And I maintain that, under this clear interpretation, "Sign languages" >should not be taken inside ISO 639. [technical hat on] I think it's very easy to come up with a different interpretation. [For the sake of exposition, I'm assuming that the documents were translated from English to French, but much of the stuff below also works in other scenarios.] When translating from English to French, 'langue' seemed the most obvious and precise term, and the translator simply either forgot about the existence of sign languages or checked the then-current actual list and didn't find any. The ideal thing to happen when a standard gets translated is that the translation detects some ambiguity. This could have happened in this case, the French translator asking back "Is this supposed to include sign languages or not; I have to know that in order to be able to translate correctly." As a result, there should have been some explicit text saying either that sign languages are included or excluded, which I guess doesn't exist. I think it's inappropriate, in this case, to conclude from the French translation 'langue' that this excludes sign languages. The chance that this translation was in essence the result of an oversight (not to blame the translator; it's essentially an oversight by everybody involved) is in my opinion at least as big, and leads to the (in my opinion) much more desirable result of including sign languages. >This is also reinforced by the fact that no "Sign Language" was present >inside the publications of ISO 639 (1988) or ISO 639-2 (1998), or even ISO >639-1 (2002). That may explain the choice of word by the translator, but doesn't prove any intent of coverage. >But, a collective "Sign Languages", with alpha-3 code element >"sgn" was added by ISO 639/RA-JAC inside ISO 639-2 on 2000-02-18 only, with >no corresponding alpha-2 code element. >This addition does not seem in line with the scope of ISO 639-2, whose "1 >Scope" writes : > " This part of ISO 639 provides two sets of three-letter alphabetic codes >for the representation of names of languages, one for TERMINOLOGY >applications, and the other for BIBLIOGRAPHIC applications...." >Moreover, ISO 639-5 (2008), that also uses "familles de langues" and >"groupes de langues", recognizes "sgn" as a group of languages, so that >ideally "sgn" should be suppressed inside ISO 639-2 to be only mentionned >inside ISO 639-5. I guess ideally, yes, but apparently the need to code sign languages was so strong (at a time when 639-5 didn't exist yet) that the relevant committees ignored this "detail". This may be taken as strong evidence that once the parties involved got aware of sign languages, they really thought they should be covered. >And in this case, there would be strictly no mention of >any form of "Sign languages" inside ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2. That would make the French translation more 'correct' on paper, but it's still not clear whether it would match the (original) intent. Regards, Martin. > > >Bien cordialement. >G$BqS(Bard LANG > >"L$B_(Bo$B‘(Bil n'y a pas de loi, >Il y a quand m$BsN(Be la conscience" > Publilius Syrus > (1er si$BoD(Ble avant J.-C.) > >-----Message d'origine----- >De : ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no >[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no] De la part de John Cowan >Envoy$Bq(B: vendredi 3 octobre 2008 17:21 >$B%?(B : CE Whitehead >Cc : ietf-languages@iana.org; ltru@ietf.org >Objet : Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 > >CE Whitehead scripsit: > >> However, "le tresor de la langue francaise" online >> (http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlf.htm) seems to largely agree with your >> definition of "langue" -- as something pertaining to the "tongue" or >> to things that remind one of a "tongue" (such as a "the tongue of a >> flame") > >Etymology is not a key to meaning. "Verbal communication" is communication >in words, and although sign languages don't involve the tongue, they >definitely have words. > >-- >John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan >Nobody expects the RESTifarian Inquisition! Our chief weapon is >surprise ... surprise and tedium ... tedium and surprise .... >Our two weapons are tedium and surprise ... and ruthless disregard for >unpleasant facts.... Our three weapons are tedium, surprise, and ruthless >disregard ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Roy Fielding.... >_______________________________________________ >Ietf-languages mailing list >Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp --===============1016004233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1016004233==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 6 05:43:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C803A6AAD; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:43:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA8D3A6AAD for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:43:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.900, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZnKsXXjdwGTn for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes2.insee.fr (hermes2.insee.fr [194.254.38.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836D33A6A05 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by hermes2.insee.fr (Insee Mail server) with ESMTP id E93353BA28D; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:44:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC898794021; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:44:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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<6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> From: =?utf-8?B?TGFuZyBHw6lyYXJk?= To: "Martin Duerst" , "John Cowan" , "CE Whitehead" , =?utf-8?B?TGFuZyBHw6lyYXJk?= X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2008 12:44:12.0896 (UTC) FILETIME=[3C2BAE00:01C927B1] Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RGVhciBNYXJ0aW4gRHVlcnN0LA0KDQoxLSBJIGNhbm5vdCBoaWRlIHRoYXQgaXQgaXMgYSBzdXJw cmlzZSBmb3IgbWUgdG8gcmVjZWl2ZSBhIG1lc3NhZ2UsIGNvbWluZyBmcm9tIHRoZSBjby1jaGFp ciBvZiBhIGxpc3Qgd2hvc2UgdGl0bGUgaXMgIkxhbmd1YWdlIFRhZyBSZWdpc3RyeSBVcGRhdGUi 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X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1765E28C1F4; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 06:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE5BE28C1ED for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 06:00:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.418 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.418 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.679, BAYES_20=-0.74, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iypg-cnII+Vg for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 640B43A6AB9 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12392 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2008 13:00:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.29) with ESMTP; 06 Oct 2008 13:00:31 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" , References: Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:00:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSB0aG91Z2h0IGl0IGhhZCBhbHJlYWR5IGJlZW4gZXN0YWJsaXNoZWQgdGhhdDoKCjEuICBvdXIg dGVybWlub2xvZ3kgaXMgbGFyZ2VseSBjb25zaXN0ZW50IHdpdGggVU5HRUdOIChleGNlcHQgdGhh dCB3ZSAKZG9uJ3QgY2xhc3NpZnkgY2VydGFpbiB0eXBlcyBvZiBzY3JpcHRzIGFzICJkZWZlY3Rp dmUiKSwgc28gd2UgaGF2ZSBubyAKY2hhbmdlcyB0byBtYWtlIHRoZXJlLCBhbmQKCjIuICBuZWl0 aGVyIExUUlUgbm9yIGlldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIGlzIHJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIGZvciBlaXRoZXIgdGhl IApGcmVuY2gtbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGl0bGUgb2YgSVNPIDYzOSBub3IgdGhlIGRlY2lzaW9uIHRvIGlu Y2x1ZGUgc2lnbiAKbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIGluIHRoZSBzY29wZSBvZiB0aGF0IHN0YW5kYXJkICh0aG91 Z2ggd2UgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB0aGF0IApkZWNpc2lvbiksIHNvIHdlIGhhdmUgbm8gY2hhbmdlcyB0 byBtYWtlIHRoZXJlIGVpdGhlci4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFk bywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0 dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDov L3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 6 07:03:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970A228C19E; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:03:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C866828C133 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:03:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ihztdQStQLxn for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41D43A67D8 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kmqgl-00062i-M4; Mon, 06 Oct 2008 10:03:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:03:55 -0400 To: Debbie Garside Message-ID: <20081006140355.GB11194@mercury.ccil.org> References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <01eb01c927b5$ef93bb50$4600a8c0@trainingroom10> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <01eb01c927b5$ef93bb50$4600a8c0@trainingroom10> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: 'CE Whitehead' , ltru@ietf.org, ietf-languages@iana.org, 'Lang =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard'?= Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Debbie Garside scripsit: > With regard to sign languages, the horse has bolted and the stable > door is now closed. They are in ISO 639-3 and will remain (quite > rightly) so. The same can be said of the facts of French usage, now that I have a chance to take a look: there are some 370,000 Google hits for "langue(s) des signes", and in addition about 2000 hits in Google Scholar, reflecting learned papers and theses published and accepted by universities in France and other parts of the Francophonie. That at least shows that "une langue des signes" is as good a "langue" as any other, and fully part of "le langage humain". -- I could dance with you till the cows John Cowan come home. On second thought, I'd http://www.ccil.org/~cowan rather dance with the cows when you cowan@ccil.org come home. --Rufus T. Firefly _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 6 17:15:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233523A6B35; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:15:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812CF3A67D8 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 06:17:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FqY4nM-DALDf for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 06:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E515B3A68FB for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 06:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.6) with ESMTP id md50008547040.msg for ; Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:30:44 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:30:44 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=116539f480=md@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: md@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from trainingroom10 ([213.208.115.6]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:17:51 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: =?utf-8?Q?'Lang_G=C3=A9rard'?= , "'Martin Duerst'" , "'John Cowan'" , "'CE Whitehead'" References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org><68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra><6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:17:51 +0100 Message-ID: <01eb01c927b5$ef93bb50$4600a8c0@trainingroom10> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Thread-Index: Acknpw56mWNokfQVRoCiFm1n6WojgAAAxJ8gAALDGlA= X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:30:45 +0100 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:15:12 -0700 Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: md@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list 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Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:43:22 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081007092539.096eda28@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:01:09 +0900 To: Lang G=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCIi4bKEI=?=rard , "John Cowan" , "CE Whitehead" , Lang G=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCIi4bKEI=?=rard From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.inse e.intra> References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Gerard, At 21:44 08/10/06, Lang G$B".(Brard wrote: >Dear Martin Duerst, > >1- I cannot hide that it is a surprise for me to receive a message, coming >from the co-chair of a list whose title is "Language Tag Registry Update" >interested in particular in "Tags for Identifying Languages", that is >explaining that a discussion about the definition of the term "LANGUAGE" is >"off topic" [OT] for this list's members ! [co-chair hat on] If this is a surprise to you, then this means you are not very familliar with the IETF process. First, the core goal of the IETF process is "rough consensus and running code". Definitions are carefully considered when it is expected that they can contribute to this goal, but are not a goal in and by itself. For getting more familliar with the IETF process and culture, I in particular recommend you to read http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4677. Second, the overall focus of some specification work and the definitions are usually discussed mostly at the start of some specification work (in my experience, this is similar in other standards organizations). However, the work of the LTRU WG on its current charter is reaching its end, at which time it in general isn't such a good idea to go back to discussing definitions. Third, the IETF mostly works by looking at actual documents. I have explicitly asked you to tell us if you have any concrete change proposals for the current documents (these would be http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt and http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt). Also, please note that our charter (http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html) explicitly includes signed languages as an use case: >>>> The working group will examine, and if necessary clarify or adjust, procedures and guidelines with respect to extended language subtags and variant subtags. Use cases include the identification of signed languages, transliterations, and transcriptions. >>>> >2- Concerning your "very easy different interpretation", I think that it is >based on false premisses about "translation". [co-chair hat off] I have done translations myself (not too many, but some). I speak and read various languages, among them English and French. I know that translators, like anybody else, are human beings. I know that translations, like any other human work, are prone to occasional mishaps. >Like it is the case for United Nations, where all six linguistic versions >of an official text have equal validity and power (so that there is no >"leading" linguistic version, whose all others would only be translations), >so that an ambiguity or interpretation based on one linguistic version can >be verified or falsified by inspecting another linguistic version, the same >is true concerning ISO standards. That's fine. Based on this, you may try to claim (although after John's email showing some 370,000 Google hits for "langue(s) des signes", it will be difficult) that because the French version uses "langue", sign languages should be excluded. However, it still doesn't mean this was the original intent. > Moreover, the most important ISO standards are not only bilingual, but >their published form is a face-$B".(B-face english/french document (not two >independant documents >With an and a french version english version), so that the equivalence is >immediately accessible to everyone and that ambiguity is maintained at the >lower possible level and that the fact that no one of the two linguistics >version is "leading" is rendered evident. This is fine, except that "accessible to everyone" obviously has to read "accessible to everyone who reads both French and English". >So, it is impossible to consider that the permanent choice of the french >word "langue" as an equivalence to the the english word "language" inside >ISO 639 could be an error or a misinterpretation. Why is it impossible? Errors happen. [By the way, Swiss law is also not only bilingual, but trilingual. On a first level, all translations are equivalent. But when a court has to look at an issue, things don't stop there. The actual history of the translations (was it e.g. from French to German, or from German to French) and so on is also considered, as well as the record of the deliberations in parlament, to be able to reconstruct the most precise interpretation where this is necessary. I guess this is rarely if ever done in an UN or ISO context, but my guess would be that if a court had to have a look at some of these things, it might be done, too.] >The choice of the more >precise word "langue" inside ISO 639 is evidently completely voluntary, and >perfectly in line with UNGEGN's Manual M 85. >In particular all three parts of ISO 3166, as well as ISO 15 924 (2004), >ISO 639 (1988), ISO 639-2 (1998), ISO 639-1(2002) and ISO 639-5 (2008) are >so bilingually presented. As an interesting matter of fact, ISO 639-3 >(2007) is the only exception in the ISO 639 series, and this could explain >that !. > >3-I think that we could act that the "(original) intention" not to cover >"Sign languages" inside ISO 639 lasted from 1967 to 2000, that is a long >time enough to ensure its coherence. And as the scope of ISO 639-2 (2002) >does not seem to have been revised by an official vote of the ISO TC 37 >national body members, as should be the case to modify such an important >interpretation, it is not so evident that ISO 639/RA-JAC decision to add >"sgn" inside ISO 639-2 can be fully considered as correct. [co-chair hat on] If you want to complain about "sgn", please complain to ISO 639/RA-JAC, not on this mailing list. [co-chair hat off] I think overall, what matters for the interpretation of the definition in question is not only ethymological considerations ("langue" also meaning "tongue" in French) or legalistic considerations (ISO defines both language versions as equivalent, and uses one if the other turns out to be ambiguous), but also social considerations. My guess is that when ISO 639 was started (1967), considerations for accessibility issues was very low, and the question "should we include sign languages or not" may not even have entered the mind of the people involved. On the other hand, these days, fortunately people are more sensitive to accessibility issues. Technology also may have played a part in it; it's much, much more common that libraries and computers store e.g. video with sign language than in 1967. Regards, Martin. >Bien cordialement. >G$B".(Brard LANG > >. > > >-----Message d'origine----- >De : Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] >Envoy$B".(B : lundi 6 octobre 2008 12:10 >$B".(B : Lang G$B".(Brard; John Cowan; CE Whitehead; Lang G$B".(Brard >Cc : ietf-languages@iana.org; ltru@ietf.org >Objet : [OT] Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms > >Dear Gerard, > >[co-chair hat on] >Unless you have a concrete suggestion re. one of the two LTRU documents >being worked on, please refrain from cc'ing ltru@ietf.org (or at least mark >your postings with [OT] (off topic)). Thanks! > >[I'm not responsible for ietf-languages@iana.org.] > >See below for a different interpretation re. sign languages. > >Regards, Martin. > >At 17:27 08/10/06, Lang G$BqS(Bard wrote: >>Dear John Cowan, > >>5-Coming back to the proper interpretation in french of the english >>word "language", I verified that from the beginning (Recommendation ISO >>639 [November 1967] "Symbols for Languages, Countries and Authorities// >>Indicatifs de LANGUES, de pays et d'autorit$BqT(B", and with strictly no >>exception, ISO 639 systematically translated the english word >>"Language" by the french word "langue" and not by "langage". This is >>also the case for UNGEGN's Manual M58, that never uses the french word >"langage". >>So, I have absolutely no doubt that "langue" is the proper french >>interpretation for "Language" inside ISO 639, as the general title of >>this standard and as UNGEGN interpretation both prove. >>And I maintain that, under this clear interpretation, "Sign languages" >>should not be taken inside ISO 639. > >[technical hat on] > >I think it's very easy to come up with a different interpretation. >[For the sake of exposition, I'm assuming that the documents were >translated from English to French, but much of the stuff below also works >in other scenarios.] > >When translating from English to French, 'langue' seemed the most obvious >and precise term, and the translator simply either forgot about the >existence of sign languages or checked the then-current actual list and >didn't find any. > >The ideal thing to happen when a standard gets translated is that the >translation detects some ambiguity. This could have happened in this case, >the French translator asking back "Is this supposed to include sign >languages or not; I have to know that in order to be able to translate >correctly." As a result, there should have been some explicit text saying >either that sign languages are included or excluded, which I guess doesn't exist. > >I think it's inappropriate, in this case, to conclude from the French >translation 'langue' that this excludes sign languages. >The chance that this translation was in essence the result of an oversight >(not to blame the translator; it's essentially an oversight by everybody >involved) is in my opinion at least as big, and leads to the (in my >opinion) much more desirable result of including sign languages. > > > >>This is also reinforced by the fact that no "Sign Language" was present >>inside the publications of ISO 639 (1988) or ISO 639-2 (1998), or even >>ISO >>639-1 (2002). > >That may explain the choice of word by the translator, but doesn't prove >any intent of coverage. > >>But, a collective "Sign Languages", with alpha-3 code element "sgn" was >>added by ISO 639/RA-JAC inside ISO 639-2 on 2000-02-18 only, with no >>corresponding alpha-2 code element. >>This addition does not seem in line with the scope of ISO 639-2, whose >>"1 Scope" writes : >> " This part of ISO 639 provides two sets of three-letter alphabetic >>codes for the representation of names of languages, one for TERMINOLOGY >>applications, and the other for BIBLIOGRAPHIC applications...." >>Moreover, ISO 639-5 (2008), that also uses "familles de langues" and >>"groupes de langues", recognizes "sgn" as a group of languages, so that >>ideally "sgn" should be suppressed inside ISO 639-2 to be only >>mentionned inside ISO 639-5. > >I guess ideally, yes, but apparently the need to code sign languages was so >strong (at a time when 639-5 didn't exist yet) that the relevant committees >ignored this "detail". This may be taken as strong evidence that once the >parties involved got aware of sign languages, they really thought they >should be covered. > >>And in this case, there would be strictly no mention of any form of >>"Sign languages" inside ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2. > >That would make the French translation more 'correct' on paper, but it's >still not clear whether it would match the (original) intent. > > >Regards, Martin. > >> >> >>Bien cordialement. >>G$BqS(Bard LANG >> >>"L$B!&(Bo$B!)(Bil n'y a pas de loi, >>Il y a quand m$BsN(Be la conscience" >> Publilius Syrus >> (1er si$BoD(Ble avant J.-C.) >> >>-----Message d'origine----- >>De : ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no >>[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no] De la part de John Cowan >>Envoy$B!&(B: vendredi 3 octobre 2008 17:21 >>$B%?(B : CE Whitehead >>Cc : ietf-languages@iana.org; ltru@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Ltru] Ltru >>Digest, Vol 44, Issue 15 >> >>CE Whitehead scripsit: >> >>> However, "le tresor de la langue francaise" online >>> (http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlf.htm) seems to largely agree with your >>> definition of "langue" -- as something pertaining to the "tongue" or >>> to things that remind one of a "tongue" (such as a "the tongue of a >>> flame") >> >>Etymology is not a key to meaning. "Verbal communication" is >>communication in words, and although sign languages don't involve the >>tongue, they definitely have words. >> >>-- >>John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan >>Nobody expects the RESTifarian Inquisition! Our chief weapon is >>surprise ... surprise and tedium ... tedium and surprise .... >>Our two weapons are tedium and surprise ... and ruthless disregard for >>unpleasant facts.... Our three weapons are tedium, surprise, and >>ruthless disregard ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Roy Fielding.... >>_______________________________________________ >>Ietf-languages mailing list >>Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no >>http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages >>_______________________________________________ >>Ltru mailing list >>Ltru@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > >#-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University >#-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 7 06:24:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E3228C1A9; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 06:24:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B78228C1A4 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 06:24:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.674 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.674 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.675, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qB+0GeGcJ3LO for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 06:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercure.insee.fr (mercure.insee.fr [81.255.68.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1934C28C18F for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 06:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by mercure.insee.fr (Insee Mail Server) with ESMTP id 85E5B13379C; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:24:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E8C079401F; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:24:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PWmFgHBgTyak; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:24:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22EE179401E; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:24:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.51]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:24:47 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:24:47 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081007092539.096eda28@localhost> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OT] Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms thread-index: AckoJ3vIo1ndaCsHRhGWPX/VCwVN4QANpuXQ References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081007092539.096eda28@localhost> From: =?utf-8?B?TGFuZyBHw6lyYXJk?= To: "Martin Duerst" , "John Cowan" , "CE Whitehead" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Oct 2008 13:24:47.0433 (UTC) FILETIME=[11AE4B90:01C92880] Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RGVhciBNYXJ0aW4sDQoNCkkgdGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIHByZWNpc2lvbnMuDQoNCjEtSSBk aWQgbm90IGhhdmUgdGhlIGludGVudGlvbiB0byBtYWtlIHB1YmxpYyByZW1hcmtzIG9uIHRoZSBk b2N1bWVudCBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtNDY0NmJpcy0xNy50eHQsIGJ1dCBhcyB5b3UgZXhwbGlj aXRlbHkgYXNrZWQgZm9yLCBJIHdpbGwgZG8gc28gdGhlcmVhZnRlci4NCiAgDQotKGkpICBPbiBw YWdlIDEwLCBJIGRvIG5vdCByZWFsbHkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCBpbnNpZGUiIDIuMi4xLiBQcmltYXJ5 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VW5pdmVyc2l0eQ0KPiMtIy0jICBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnN3Lml0LmFveWFtYS5hYy5qcCAgICAgIG1h aWx0bzpkdWVyc3RAaXQuYW95YW1hLmFjLmpwICAgIA0KDQoNCiMtIy0jICBNYXJ0aW4gSi4gRHUi cnN0LCBBc3NvYy4gUHJvZmVzc29yLCBBb3lhbWEgR2FrdWluIFVuaXZlcnNpdHkNCiMtIy0jICBo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnN3Lml0LmFveWFtYS5hYy5qcCAgICAgICBtYWlsdG86ZHVlcnN0QGl0LmFveWFt YS5hYy5qcCAgICAgDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 7 10:24:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 696D43A68BD; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:24:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA82428C0DE for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:24:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.869, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tJt2xrA-zf-6 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247AC3A6873 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KnGId-0006Kh-IZ; Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:24:43 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:24:43 -0400 To: Lang =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Message-ID: <20081007172443.GC27156@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081007092539.096eda28@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ltru@ietf.org, CE Whitehead Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Summary for Addison: please note points vii, x (first part). Lang G=E9rard scripsit: > -(i) On page 10, I do not really understand inside" 2.2.1. Primary > Language Subtag" how works the combination of the first and the third > paragraph of point 6, that seems to be in contradiction. The first paragraph refers to the present, the third to the future. In English we say "if a ... code is added" rather than "if a code ... will be added". > The end of the second paragraph of this point 6 is osbcure for me. What > is in fact expected ? That no more two alpha-3 code element be given > to the same language name inside ISO 639-2, or that when a new case > like that occurs no alpha-2 ISO 639-1 code element will be given to > this language name ? We expect in fact that ISO 639-1 is a closed set; that no new 2-letter codes will be created. An exception would be if a new language were to be added to 639-1, 639-2, and 639-3 simultaneously: this would be a language obscure enough to be missed by 639-3, and well-known enough to require a 639-1 entry. The only scenario I can foresee requiring such an action is if dialect drift has been large enough over a long enough time (probably centuries) that it becomes the scientific consensus that English or French or Spanish has broken apart into two or more distinct languages. > -(ii) On page 13, inside "2.2.4. Region Subtag", I understand from the > meaning of the last phrase of point 2. that "UK" that is effectively > one of the (today) 10 alpha-2 ISO 3166-1"exceptionally reserved" code > element, like "AC", "EU" and "SU", is not to be registered inside > IANA's Register because GB is already registered. So that "en-UK" > is not a possible valid language tag. You understand correctly. > -(iii) On page 22, inside "3.1.1. File Format", the last phrase > describing the representation "2004-06-28" in the Gregorian calendar > is a direct application of the standard ISO 8601:2004Data elements > and interchange formats-Information interchange-Representation of > dates and times, third edition", 2004 that should be mentionned inside > "9.1 Normative references". The normative reference is to RFC 3339, which is a profile of ISO 8601. It is not necessary to understand ISO 8601 to understand RFC 3339. > -(iv) On page 28, inside "3.1.7 Prefered Value Field", point 1 that > writes "ISO 639 language codes that were later withdrawn in favor of > othres codes. These values are mostly a historical curiosity. The > 'he' / 'iw' pairing above is an example of this" is factually false > (even if this has no reaction on IANA's Registry that only registers > ISO 639-2T code elements) because ISO 639/RA-JAC decided recently (on > 2008-06-28) the deprecation of the ISO 639-2B alpha-3 code elements > for the languages "Croatian" and "Serbian", to be replaced by the > corresponding ISO 639-2T code elements. So this text must be changed. There is no claim that *every* withdrawn ISO 639 code appears in the registry, only that some of them do. In particular, the 639-2B elements in question never appeared previously in the Registry, and therefore do not appear today either. > -(v) On page 39, inside "3.4 Stability of IANA Registry Entries", clause > F of point 15 (that seems to be in contradiction with the last phrase > of clause D of point 4 of 2.2.4., page 14) is absolutely not useful. It > is now impossible to add a new entry inside ISO 3166-1 without giving > the three corresponding code elements (alpha-2, alpha-3 and numeric-3) > to this new entry. In the case, that never occured because "4.1 List" > of ISO 3166-1 writes "The list of country names in this part of ISO > 3166 ... is based on the list in the "Standard Country or Area Codes > for Statisdtical Use" established by the United Nations, that the > division of statistics of UN would refuse to give a numeric-3 code > element concerning a new entry that ISO 3166/MA has decided to add > inside ISO 3166-1, ISO 3166/Ma is authorised to choose a numeric-3 > code element inside the specially reserved 901-999 code list. This is good news. However, based on unfortunate past experiences, BCP 47 is written so as to avoid, as much as possible, dependencies on particular RA or MA policies such as this. > -(vi) On page 40, also inside point 15 of 3.4., clause D is similarly > of no effect. The case that UN M.49 country or area codes exist for > which there is no corresponding ISO 3166-1 code has no existence. In > fact, the inverse case exists because old numeric-3 code elements that > were given in the past by UN M.49 are still utilised by ISO 3166-1 > even if they are no more effective for UN M.49. This is specioally > the case for "158" TAIWAN, but also for "074" BOUVET ISLAND and "334" > HEARD ISLAND AND MCDONALD ISLANDS. Same comment. > -(vii) on page 47, inside "3.6. Possibility of Registration", that > gives, in fine, the postal adress concerning ISO 3166/MAS should be > lightly modified by replacing the line: "Case postale 56" by the two > lines: "1, chemin de la Voie Creuse Thank you. > -(viii) On page 59, inside "4.1.2. Using Extended Language Subtag", > in fine, I completely agree with the first phrase of the last paragraph > that writes "Sign languages share a mode of communication rather than > a linguistic heritage" and is directly in linewith my previous messages > on this point. That is to say, they are not descended from another in the way that French and Spanish are descended from Latin. This is a statement of fact, not policy; sign languages have been known to arise independently in different parts of the world, though it is true that (e.g.) American Sign Language is a descendant of French Sign Language. > -(ix) On page 66, inside"4.6. Considerations for Private Use Subtag", > the paragraph concerning user-reserved ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 code elements > should be enriched by adding that "Article 8.2.of ISO 3166-1 considers > essential that all user should notify to ISO 3166/MA every occurrence > of their intentions concerning user-assigned code elements, so as to > coordinate such uses and to avoid that two differents alpha-2 code > elements be choosen by two different users for the same "country name" > in the same domain of use. > = > For example, there is today no entry and no reserved code element inside > ISO 3166-1 concerning the country name "KOSOVO". But, as the European > Union notified the use of the user-reserved alpha-2 code element "XK", > ISO 3166/MA is stongly recommanding to use "XK" when representation > of the country name "KOSOVO" is needed. As a matter of implicit policy we abstain from such statements about private-use codes. They who use them in interchange do so entirely at their own risk. > -(x) On page 77, inside "9.1. Normative References", dates concerning > ISO 639-1 should be precised "July 2002", idem for ISO 639-2 "October > 1998, for ISO 639-3 "February 2007" and ISO 646 "December 1991". Thank you. > ISO 8601 should be added, see (iii). See my reply to (iii). > I would also advocate for the addition of ISO 3166-2 :2007. Codes for > the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions--Part 2: > Country subdivision code", December 2007. 3166-2 codes are not used in BCP 47. A normative reference implies that understanding of the referent is needed to understand BCP 47 fully, which is not the case for 3166-2. > -(xi) On page 79, inside "9.2. Informative References", I would like > to add "Glossary of Terms for the Standardization of Geographical > Names"--United Nations Group of Experts for Geographical > Names--Statistics Division, Department of Economic and Social > Affairs--Manual M85--New York, May 2002. "Je ne vois pas la n=E9cessit=E9." --Talleyrand > 2.2 In fact, I am completely prepared to admit that "political > correctness" has gradually pushed "scientific progress" and ISO > 639/RA-JAC to recognize "Sign languages", that were not initially > intended to be covered, as possible entries inside ISO 639-3 and ISO > 639-5 and pseudo-linguistic entities. So we observe in french languge > a shift from "langage des signes", that was historically the only way > to translate "Sign languages" until recently, to "langue des signes" > that became much more politically correct. But, please, it is not > necessary to rewrite history for this. [OT] I should characterize this as scientific rather than political correctness. Speaking of "le langage des signes", which I should translate as "human gestural communication", covers such things as nodding or shaking the head to symbolize yes or no, or gestures to add emphasis to the spoken voice such as pointed fingers or shaken fists. These things are utterly distinct from Deaf sign languages. It was in fact a scientific discovery that the communication systems of the Deaf were not only an example of "le langage des signes", but were also "langues" in their own right, with their own phonologies, syntaxes, vocabularies, and semantics. As for the derivation of "langue", it is as true in linguistics as in biology that the historical origin of a feature does not dictate its current utility: the bones of the mammalian middle ear (malleus, incus, stapes) were parts of the jaw in the reptilian ancestors, but now used to hear rather than to chew; and although _chef_ in French derives from Latin _caput_ 'head [of the body]', it would be entirely incorrect to use _chef_ instead of _t=EAte_ (from Latin _testa_ 'pot') to mean 'head' today. Such changes are always going on, and if "langue" now covers languages that do not require a tongue to speak, it is neither surprising nor inaccurate. -- = John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Half the lies they tell about me are true. --Tallulah Bankhead, American actress _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 7 10:31:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9573A67F7; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:31:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7C43A67F7 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:31:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.782 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.782 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.517, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5NO7VHMld2+s for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6993A6768 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:31:18 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,373,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="58215706" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 07 Oct 2008 17:30:47 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m97HUjOD005750 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:30:47 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:30:25 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , =?utf-8?B?TGFuZyBHw6lyYXJk?= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:30:24 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms Thread-Index: Ackooa0cLWolSoH9RWKSEqkhHlyiKAAAIK4g Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014E41D600@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081007092539.096eda28@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <20081007172443.GC27156@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081007172443.GC27156@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: CE Whitehead , "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org KGVkaXRvciBoYXQgT0ZGKQ0KDQpZb3UgYmVhdCBtZSB0byBhIHJlc3BvbnNlLCBKb2huLCB0aGFu ayB5b3UuIEkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB5b3VyIG9ic2VydmF0aW9ucy4NCg0KKGVkaXRvciBoYXQgT04p DQoNCkkgY29uY3VyIHdpdGggdGhlIHR3byBtaW5vciBlZGl0cyBKb2huIGNpdGVkIGFzICh2aWkp IGFuZCAoeCkgYmVsb3cgYW5kIHdpbGwgaW5jb3Jwb3JhdGUgdGhlbSBpbnRvIHRoZSBlZGl0b3In cyBjb3B5IG9mIGRyYWZ0LTE4Lg0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQoNCkFkZGlzb24gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2Jh 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IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8v d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 7 16:15:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE7A3A681A; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:15:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36783A681A for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:15:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qYFK6as4R9qo for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05B33A67F9 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:16:27 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:16:27 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:16:26 -0700 Thread-Topic: [OT] ISO 3166 private-use code elements Thread-Index: AckoJ3vIo1ndaCsHRhGWPX/VCwVN4QANpuXQAByROWA= Message-ID: References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081007092539.096eda28@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] [OT] ISO 3166 private-use code elements X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3Jn XSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgTGFuZyBHw6lyYXJkDQoNCj4gLShpeCkgT24gcGFnZSA2NiwgaW5zaWRl IjQuNi4gQ29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbnMgZm9yIFByaXZhdGUgVXNlDQo+IFN1YnRhZyIsIHRoZSBwYXJh Z3JhcGggY29uY2VybmluZyB1c2VyLXJlc2VydmVkIElTTyAzMTY2LTENCj4gYWxwaGEtMiBjb2Rl IGVsZW1lbnRzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBlbnJpY2hlZCBieSBhZGRpbmcgdGhhdA0KPiAiQXJ0aWNsZSA4 LjIub2YgSVNPIDMxNjYtMSBjb25zaWRlcnMgZXNzZW50aWFsIHRoYXQgYWxsIHVzZXINCj4gc2hv dWxkIG5vdGlmeSB0byBJU08gMzE2Ni9NQSBldmVyeSBvY2N1cnJlbmNlIG9mIHRoZWlyDQo+IGlu dGVudGlvbnMgY29uY2VybmluZyB1c2VyLWFzc2lnbmVkIGNvZGUgZWxlbWVudHMsIHNvIGFzIHRv DQo+IGNvb3JkaW5hdGUgc3VjaCB1c2VzIGFuZCB0byBhdm9pZCB0aGF0IHR3byBkaWZmZXJlbnRz IGFscGhhLTINCj4gY29kZSBlbGVtZW50cyBiZSBjaG9vc2VuIGJ5IHR3byBkaWZmZXJlbnQgdXNl cnMgZm9yIHRoZSBzYW1lDQo+ICJjb3VudHJ5IG5hbWUiIGluIHRoZSBzYW1lIGRvbWFpbiBvZiB1 c2UuDQo+IEZvciBleGFtcGxlLCB0aGVyZSBpcyB0b2RheSBubyBlbnRyeSBhbmQgbm8gcmVzZXJ2 ZWQgY29kZQ0KPiBlbGVtZW50IGluc2lkZSBJU08gMzE2Ni0xIGNvbmNlcm5pbmcgdGhlIGNvdW50 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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5733A681A for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:18:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.078, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fY1hmA+P-TUg for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEDBB3A67F9 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KnLq0-0004Ad-BX; Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:19:32 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 19:19:32 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20081007231931.GS10223@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081007092539.096eda28@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] ISO 3166 private-use code elements X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > Btw, wrt this item from the 3166 FAQ, "What is the code for global, > worldwide or unknown in ISO 3166-1?" it is really unfortunate that > ISO 3166 is not more responsive to common user needs by coding such > entities. Fortunately we have a subtag for global/worldwide, from M.49, namely '001'. Unknown can be handled by omission. -- What has four pairs of pants, lives John Cowan in Philadelphia, and it never rains http://www.ccil.org/~cowan but it pours? cowan@ccil.org --Rufus T. Firefly _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 7 17:01:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0BF3A6B93; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:01:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7732E3A6B93 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:01:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4bahskFA0UuJ for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C503A6B09 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:01:40 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:01:40 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:01:38 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms Thread-Index: AckoJ3vIo1ndaCsHRhGWPX/VCwVN4QANpuXQAB02g1A= Message-ID: References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081007092539.096eda28@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3Jn XSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgTGFuZyBHw6lyYXJkDQoNCj4gMi4gIEkgaGF2ZSBubyBwcm9ibGVtIHRv 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(64.202.165.33) with ESMTP; 08 Oct 2008 03:42:20 -0000 Message-ID: <016C86B62DBF4895A7873B231C416F5F@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:42:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sm9obiBDb3dhbiA8Y293YW4gYXQgY2NpbCBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3cm90ZSBvbmUgb2YgdGhvc2UgcmVz cG9uc2VzIHRoYXQgCm1ha2VzIG1lIHdpc2ggSSBjb3VsZCB3cml0ZSB0aGF0IHdlbGwuICBDbHVt 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ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8BFB3A67A3 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:42:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iac8hCQMYmMS for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0666B3A6AE6 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KnQsl-0000HF-Og; Wed, 08 Oct 2008 00:42:43 -0400 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:42:43 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20081008044243.GA23458@mercury.ccil.org> References: <016C86B62DBF4895A7873B231C416F5F@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <016C86B62DBF4895A7873B231C416F5F@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > John Cowan wrote one of those responses that > makes me wish I could write that well. Clumsily worded addenda follow. See the .sig. > I do worry that the MA will bow to political pressure and register > "Macedonian" in this way, just as was done with "Serbian" and "Croatian" > and "Bosnian." I hope my worries are unfounded. Mmm, you're probably right. > >The normative reference is to RFC 3339, which is a profile of ISO > >8601. It is not necessary to understand ISO 8601 to understand RFC > >3339. > > In fact, in theory we could probably say "in year-month-day format, > separated by hyphens" and be done with it. There isn't, but it's useful to reassure people that they may use their RFC 3336- or ISO 8601-compliant routines to read our dates. > I don't think there's any real harm in reminding people who want to > create subtags in the private-use space that the MA wants to know what > code elements they chose. Okay with me, then. Addison? -- John Cowan Yakka foob mog. Grug pubbawup zink wattoom gazork. Chumble spuzz. --Calvin, giving Newton's First Law "in his own words" Don't be so humble. You're not that great. John Cowan --Golda Meir cowan@ccil.org _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 7 22:47:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB163A6AEB; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:47:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969A83A6A9B for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:47:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.972 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.972 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.373, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OghCM4q7+JdP for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B693E3A6971 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:47:24 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,377,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="58511317" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Oct 2008 05:48:02 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m985m2NL019570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 8 Oct 2008 05:48:02 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:48:01 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:47:18 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Doug Ewell Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:47:58 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms Thread-Index: AckpAFgU5qb3I5WURwOkB1JiLph0TQAArHCA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014EBA6B24@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <016C86B62DBF4895A7873B231C416F5F@DGBP7M81> <20081008044243.GA23458@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081008044243.GA23458@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > > In fact, in theory we could probably say "in year-month-day > format, > > separated by hyphens" and be done with it. > > There isn't, but it's useful to reassure people that they may use > their > RFC 3336- or ISO 8601-compliant routines to read our dates. (editor hat OFF) I agree. We reference the relevant RFC, which includes the relevant ISO standard bits. That's a good thing. > > > I don't think there's any real harm in reminding people who want > to > > create subtags in the private-use space that the MA wants to know > what > > code elements they chose. > > Okay with me, then. Addison? (editor hat OFF) I don't agree. We have plenty of text as it is. We don't need to include lots of cruft on behalf of the MA. In practice, we clearly and effectively say that private use is typically a Bad Idea anyway. I especially think it is true of region codes. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 7 23:20:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D28403A6ADA; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8188E3A6ADA for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.840, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eX1D5ZesKVQA for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes2.insee.fr (hermes2.insee.fr [194.254.38.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E7E93A6846 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by hermes2.insee.fr (Insee Mail server) with ESMTP id 2E2633BA2B2; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:00:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B99479401F; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:00:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FdEmOvo8Gz-L; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:00:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8EF79401E; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:00:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.51]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:00:15 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:00:15 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E5@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <20081007172443.GC27156@mercury.ccil.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OT] Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms thread-index: AckooZ7oXDGgd8f6SkyFV3foM3H/6QAaOs6Q References: <20081003152113.GU31839@mercury.ccil.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DB@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081006185028.06fa4788@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07DD@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <6.0.0.20.2.20081007092539.096eda28@localhost> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <20081007172443.GC27156@mercury.ccil.org> From: =?windows-1258?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: "John Cowan" , =?windows-1258?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2008 06:00:15.0943 (UTC) FILETIME=[22A5A570:01C9290B] Cc: ltru@ietf.org, CE Whitehead Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1258" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RGVhciBKb2huIENvd2FuLAogQ29uY2VybmluZyB5b3VyIGxhc3QgcmVtYXJrLCB3aGF0IGFib3V0 ICJDb3V2cmUtY2hlZiAiIG9yIGV2ZW4gIkNoZWYtZCecdXZyZSIgPyAKQmllbiBjb3JkaWFsZW1l bnQuCkfpcmFyZCBMQU5HCgotLS0tLU1lc3NhZ2UgZCdvcmlnaW5lLS0tLS0KRGUgOiBKb2huIENv d2FuIFttYWlsdG86Y293YW5AY2NpbC5vcmddIApFbnZveekgOiBtYXJkaSA3IG9jdG9icmUgMjAw OCAxOToyNQrAIDogTGFuZyBH6XJhcmQKQ2MgOiBNYXJ0aW4gRHVlcnN0OyBKb2huIENvd2FuOyBD 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cG90JykgdG8gbWVhbiAnaGVhZCcgdG9kYXkuICBTdWNoIGNoYW5nZXMgYXJlIGFsd2F5cyBnb2lu ZyBvbiwgYW5kIGlmICJsYW5ndWUiCm5vdyBjb3ZlcnMgbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIHRoYXQgZG8gbm90IHJl cXVpcmUgYSB0b25ndWUgdG8gc3BlYWssIGl0IGlzIG5laXRoZXIgc3VycHJpc2luZyBub3IgaW5h Y2N1cmF0ZS4KCi0tIApKb2huIENvd2FuICAgIGNvd2FuQGNjaWwub3JnICAgIGh0dHA6Ly9jY2ls Lm9yZy9+Y293YW4KSGFsZiB0aGUgbGllcyB0aGV5IHRlbGwgYWJvdXQgbWUgYXJlIHRydWUuCiAg ICAgICAgLS1UYWxsdWxhaCBCYW5raGVhZCwgQW1lcmljYW4gYWN0cmVzcwpfX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1 QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 8 00:21:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B2943A6A86; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:21:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964FF3A6A86 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:21:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KPNVkRTN9Yre for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercure.insee.fr (mercure.insee.fr [81.255.68.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153123A6809 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by mercure.insee.fr (Insee Mail Server) with ESMTP id F27A613372F; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:21:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D1779401F; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:21:27 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WaCcVNuBK3i6; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:21:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72A3794020; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:21:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.51]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:21:26 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:21:26 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E6@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24 thread-index: AckpDhd34xzFapXfQcCWC+zlT8riZgABBsXw References: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: , "John Cowan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2008 07:21:26.0943 (UTC) FILETIME=[79FD42F0:01C92916] Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear All, 1-Let me stress that I have, in fact, no "strenuous objection" with the rec= ent "discover" that "langage des signes" became "langue des signes". But I = have very strenuous objection about rewriting history and do not understand= the strenuous resistance to the establishment of history. I agree without= problem that in the past decade "scientific progress" admitted that "Sign = languages" could be assimilated to "languages" and registered inside ISO 639-3. But I want to be clearly understood that t= his was not in the intended scope of ISO 639 (and of ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-= 2) until 2000. And I cannot prevent me to think that this "discover" is not completely ind= ependant of "political correctness". 2-As "codification of the representation of names of countries names and th= eir subdivisions" is also clearly not independant from "political pressure"= , ISO 3166 has its share of pressure. So that, to give an example, we accep= ted the request of ROMANIA to change their alpha-3 code element from "ROM" = to "ROU". 3-But this is also the case for "codification of the representation of name= s of languages" For example, the deprecation of Serbo-Croat, that was clearly considered as= a plain language and so coded (sh) inside ISO 639 (1988), as well as Maced= onian (mk), Serbian (sr) and Croatian (hr), followed by the deprecation of the alpha-3 = ISO 639-2/B code elements for Croatian and Serbian (because "scc" and "scr"= were clearly intended to represent Serbo-Croatian Cyrillic and Serbo-Croat= ian Roman), can certainly not be considered as independant of political con= siderations. This is also the case for the addition of "Letzeburgesh" (lb,ltz) or "Bosni= an" (bs,bos); this would also be the case for the language name "Montenegri= n" that is now recognized as the official language of MONTENEGRO (Maybe you= were thinking to Montenegrin when you wrote Macedonian ?) and is certainly= a new "language name" covered by ISO 639.. Cordialement. G=E9rard LANG -----Message d'origine----- De : ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de ltr= u-request@ietf.org Envoy=E9 : mercredi 8 octobre 2008 08:21 =C0 : ltru@ietf.org Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24 Send Ltru mailing list submissions to ltru@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ltru-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at ltru-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "R= e: Contents of Ltru digest..." Today's Topics: 1. [OT] ISO 3166 private-use code elements (Peter Constable) 2. Re: [OT] ISO 3166 private-use code elements (John Cowan) 3. Re: [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms (Peter Constable) 4. Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms (Doug Ewell) 5. Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms (John Cowan) 6. Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms (Phillips, Addison) 7. Re: [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms (Lang G?rard) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:16:26 -0700 From: Peter Constable Subject: [Ltru] [OT] ISO 3166 private-use code elements To: "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: = Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lan= g G?rard > -(ix) On page 66, inside"4.6. Considerations for Private Use Subtag", = > the paragraph concerning user-reserved ISO 3166-1 > alpha-2 code elements should be enriched by adding that "Article = > 8.2.of ISO 3166-1 considers essential that all user should notify to = > ISO 3166/MA every occurrence of their intentions concerning = > user-assigned code elements, so as to coordinate such uses and to = > avoid that two differents alpha-2 code elements be choosen by two = > different users for the same "country name" in the same domain of use. > For example, there is today no entry and no reserved code element = > inside ISO 3166-1 concerning the country name "KOSOVO". > But, as the European Union notified the use of the user- reserved = > alpha-2 code element "XK", ISO 3166/MA is stongly recommanding to use = > "XK" when representation of the country name "KOSOVO" is needed. I don't understand the intent here. It seems as though the ISO 3166/MA is t= rying to support interoperability by means of user-defined code elements. T= hat seems like an oxymoron. By definition, interoperability is not ensured = by user-defined code elements. Wouldn't be better if whatever region entiti= es that users need interoperable code elements for could be registered? If the MA is attempting to support users by documenting user-defined usage,= then surely that would be a lot more useful if it were easy to find out ab= out this. Yet I can't find any reference to this on the ISO 3166 site. Btw, wrt this item from the 3166 FAQ, "What is the code for global, worldwi= de or unknown in ISO 3166-1?" it is really unfortunate that ISO 3166 is not= more responsive to common user needs by coding such entities. Peter ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 19:19:32 -0400 From: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] ISO 3166 private-use code elements To: Peter Constable Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20081007231931.GS10223@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Peter Constable scripsit: > Btw, wrt this item from the 3166 FAQ, "What is the code for global, = > worldwide or unknown in ISO 3166-1?" it is really unfortunate that ISO = > 3166 is not more responsive to common user needs by coding such = > entities. Fortunately we have a subtag for global/worldwide, from M.49, namely '001'.= Unknown can be handled by omission. -- = What has four pairs of pants, lives John Cowan in Philadelphia, and it never rains http://www.ccil.org/~cowan but it pours? cowan@ccil.org --Rufus T. Firefly ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:01:38 -0700 From: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms To: "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: = Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lan= g G?rard > 2. I have no problem to agree with your opinion about translation... > 2.1 But I must insist that we are not here (langue/langage) with a = > translation problem, because when ISO TC 37 (then " Terminology = > (principles and coordination"), that is co- responsible with ISO TC 46 = > ("Information and Documentation") of the series ISO 639 [and i am the = > liaison officer from ISO TC 46 to ISDO TC 37], had a plenary meeting = > in Paris in > 2004-08-23/27 I made an short remark on this point that "langue" did = > not cover "Sign languages" and nobody refuted this remark or said that = > the original intent was "langage". There is no question that the intent of ISO TC 37 SC 2 or the ISO 639-RA/JA= C that signed languages are considered in scope for ISO 639. This is explic= itly clear in ISO 639-3, clause 4.2.1: "In this part of ISO 639, most identifiers are assumed to denote distinct i= ndividual languages. Furthermore, it is a goal for this part of ISO 639 to = provide an identifier for every distinct human language that has been docum= ented, whether living or extinct, and whether its primary modality is spoke= n, written or signed." Also, ISO/DIS 639-4 makes clear that "language" is considered any mode of l= inguistic expression: "3.6 language systematic use of sounds, characters, symbols or signs to express or commun= icate meaning or a message" "9.2.2.2 Linguistic Information ? mode of communication =3D [spoken or written or signed]; " > 2.2 In fact, I am completely prepared to admit that "political = > correctness" has gradually pushed "scientific progress" and ISO = > 639/RA-JAC to recognize "Sign languages", that were not initially = > intended to be covered, as possible entries inside ISO 639-3 and ISO = > 639-5 and pseudo-linguistic entities. This is not just a matter of political correctness. Signed languages are la= nguages. Peter ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:42:19 -0600 From: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms To: "LTRU Working Group" Message-ID: <016C86B62DBF4895A7873B231C416F5F@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed; charset=3D"utf-8"; reply-type=3Doriginal John Cowan wrote one of those responses that makes = me wish I could write that well. Clumsily worded addenda follow. > We expect in fact that ISO 639-1 is a closed set; that no new 2-letter = > codes will be created. An exception would be if a new language were = > to be added to 639-1, 639-2, and 639-3 simultaneously: this would be a = > language obscure enough to be missed by 639-3, and well-known enough = > to require a 639-1 entry. The only scenario I can foresee requiring = > such an action is if dialect drift has been large enough over a long = > enough time (probably centuries) that it becomes the scientific = > consensus that English or French or Spanish has broken apart into two = > or more distinct languages. I do worry that the MA will bow to political pressure and register "Macedon= ian" in this way, just as was done with "Serbian" and "Croatian" = and "Bosnian." I hope my worries are unfounded. >> -(iii) On page 22, inside "3.1.1. File Format", the last phrase = >> describing the representation "2004-06-28" in the Gregorian calendar = >> is a direct application of the standard ISO 8601:2004Data elements = >> and interchange formats-Information interchange-Representation of = >> dates and times, third edition", 2004 that should be mentionned = >> inside "9.1 Normative references". > > The normative reference is to RFC 3339, which is a profile of ISO = > 8601. It is not necessary to understand ISO 8601 to understand RFC = > 3339. In fact, in theory we could probably say "in year-month-day format, separat= ed by hyphens" and be done with it. There shouldn't be any IPR on the form= at. Using RFCs as references to other RFCs is often a cleaner solution than usi= ng equivalent ISO standards, because of the guarantee that the entire spec = is freely available (as in both speech and beer). And for our *very* limited purposes, RFC 3339 is equivalent to ISO 8601. >> -(ix) On page 66, inside"4.6. Considerations for Private Use Subtag", = >> the paragraph concerning user-reserved ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 code = >> elements should be enriched by adding that "Article 8.2.of ISO 3166-1 = >> considers essential that all user should notify to ISO 3166/MA every = >> occurrence of their intentions concerning user-assigned code = >> elements, so as to coordinate such uses and to avoid that two = >> differents alpha-2 code elements be choosen by two different users = >> for the same "country name" in the same domain of use. >> >> For example, there is today no entry and no reserved code element = >> inside ISO 3166-1 concerning the country name "KOSOVO". But, as the = >> European Union notified the use of the user-reserved alpha-2 code = >> element "XK", ISO 3166/MA is stongly recommanding to use "XK" when = >> representation of the country name "KOSOVO" is needed. > > As a matter of implicit policy we abstain from such statements about = > private-use codes. They who use them in interchange do so entirely at = > their own risk. I don't think there's any real harm in reminding people who want to create = subtags in the private-use space that the MA wants to know what code elemen= ts they chose. I do, however, agree that we should not echo back the MA's "strong recommen= dations," as users have a tendency to equate those with formally assigned c= ode elements (which is kind of how we got involved with "exceptionally rese= rved" code elements). >> I would also advocate for the addition of ISO 3166-2 :2007. Codes for = >> the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions--Part >> 2: Country subdivision code", December 2007. > > 3166-2 codes are not used in BCP 47. A normative reference implies = > that understanding of the referent is needed to understand BCP 47 = > fully, which is not the case for 3166-2. It should not even be an informative reference, since neither BCP 47 nor th= e Registry mentions informatively, or even alludes to, ISO 3166-2. For reasons that have been outlined here before, ISO 3166-2 -- as useful as= it is in other contexts -- is not appropriate for BCP 47 language tagging.= Slipping a new entry into the References section will not change this. >> -(xi) On page 79, inside "9.2. Informative References", I would like = >> to add "Glossary of Terms for the Standardization of Geographical = >> Names"--United Nations Group of Experts for Geographical = >> Names--Statistics Division, Department of Economic and Social = >> Affairs--Manual M85--New York, May 2002. > > "Je ne vois pas la n?cessit?." --Talleyrand Since we don't formalize the use of UNGEGN terminology, the only thing this= reference would accomplish would be to cause IETF Last Call reviewers to a= sk why it was added. >> 2.2 In fact, I am completely prepared to admit that "political = >> correctness" has gradually pushed "scientific progress" and ISO = >> 639/RA-JAC to recognize "Sign languages", that were not initially = >> intended to be covered, as possible entries inside ISO 639-3 and ISO >> 639-5 and pseudo-linguistic entities. So we observe in french languge = >> a shift from "langage des signes", that was historically the only way = >> to translate "Sign languages" until recently, to "langue des signes" >> that became much more politically correct. But, please, it is not = >> necessary to rewrite history for this. I wonder what has caused G?rard to object so strenuously to the encoding of= sign languages in ISO 639. Somehow I doubt it is just the origins of "lan= gue" and "langage." -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.= ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ? ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:42:43 -0400 From: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms To: Doug Ewell Cc: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <20081008044243.GA23458@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Doug Ewell scripsit: > John Cowan wrote one of those responses that = > makes me wish I could write that well. Clumsily worded addenda follow. See the .sig. > I do worry that the MA will bow to political pressure and register = > "Macedonian" in this way, just as was done with "Serbian" and "Croatian" > and "Bosnian." I hope my worries are unfounded. Mmm, you're probably right. > >The normative reference is to RFC 3339, which is a profile of ISO = > >8601. It is not necessary to understand ISO 8601 to understand RFC = > >3339. > = > In fact, in theory we could probably say "in year-month-day format, = > separated by hyphens" and be done with it. There isn't, but it's useful to reassure people that they may use their RFC= 3336- or ISO 8601-compliant routines to read our dates. > I don't think there's any real harm in reminding people who want to = > create subtags in the private-use space that the MA wants to know what = > code elements they chose. Okay with me, then. Addison? -- = John Cowan Yakka foob mog. Grug pubbawup zink wattoom gazork. Chumble spuzz. --Calvin, giving Newton's First Law "in his own words" Don't be so humble. You're not that great. John Cowan --Golda Meir cowan@ccil.org ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:47:58 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms To: John Cowan , Doug Ewell Cc: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014EBA6B24@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" > > > > In fact, in theory we could probably say "in year-month-day > format, > > separated by hyphens" and be done with it. > = > There isn't, but it's useful to reassure people that they may use = > their RFC 3336- or ISO 8601-compliant routines to read our dates. (editor hat OFF) I agree. We reference the relevant RFC, which includes the relevant ISO sta= ndard bits. That's a good thing. > = > > I don't think there's any real harm in reminding people who want > to > > create subtags in the private-use space that the MA wants to know > what > > code elements they chose. > = > Okay with me, then. Addison? (editor hat OFF) I don't agree. We have plenty of text as it is. We don't need to include lo= ts of cruft on behalf of the MA. In practice, we clearly and effectively sa= y that private use is typically a Bad Idea anyway. I especially think it is= true of region codes. Addison ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:00:15 +0200 From: Lang G?rard Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms To: "John Cowan" , Lang G?rard Cc: ltru@ietf.org, CE Whitehead Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E5@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"windows-1258" Dear John Cowan, Concerning your last remark, what about "Couvre-chef " or even "Chef-d'?uv= re" ? = Bien cordialement. G?rard LANG -----Message d'origine----- De : John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] Envoy? : mardi 7 octobre 2008 19:25= ? : Lang G?rard Cc : Martin Duerst; John Cowan; CE Whitehead; ltru@ietf.or= g Objet : Re: [OT] Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of te= rms Summary for Addison: please note points vii, x (first part). Lang G?rard scripsit: > -(i) On page 10, I do not really understand inside" 2.2.1. Primary = > Language Subtag" how works the combination of the first and the third = > paragraph of point 6, that seems to be in contradiction. The first paragraph refers to the present, the third to the future. In English we say "if a ... code is added" rather than "if a code ... will = be added". > The end of the second paragraph of this point 6 is osbcure for me. = > What is in fact expected ? That no more two alpha-3 code element be = > given to the same language name inside ISO 639-2, or that when a new = > case like that occurs no alpha-2 ISO 639-1 code element will be given = > to this language name ? We expect in fact that ISO 639-1 is a closed set; that no new 2-letter code= s will be created. An exception would be if a new language were to be adde= d to 639-1, 639-2, and 639-3 simultaneously: this would be a language obscu= re enough to be missed by 639-3, and well-known enough to require a 639-1 e= ntry. The only scenario I can foresee requiring such an action is if diale= ct drift has been large enough over a long enough time (probably centuries)= that it becomes the scientific consensus that English or French or Spanish= has broken apart into two or more distinct languages. > -(ii) On page 13, inside "2.2.4. Region Subtag", I understand from the = > meaning of the last phrase of point 2. that "UK" that is effectively = > one of the (today) 10 alpha-2 ISO 3166-1"exceptionally reserved" code = > element, like "AC", "EU" and "SU", is not to be registered inside = > IANA's Register because GB is already registered. So that "en-UK" > is not a possible valid language tag. You understand correctly. > -(iii) On page 22, inside "3.1.1. File Format", the last phrase = > describing the representation "2004-06-28" in the Gregorian calendar = > is a direct application of the standard ISO 8601:2004Data elements and = > interchange formats-Information interchange-Representation of dates = > and times, third edition", 2004 that should be mentionned inside > "9.1 Normative references". The normative reference is to RFC 3339, which is a profile of ISO 8601. It is not necessary to understand ISO 8601 to understand RFC 3339. > -(iv) On page 28, inside "3.1.7 Prefered Value Field", point 1 that = > writes "ISO 639 language codes that were later withdrawn in favor of = > othres codes. These values are mostly a historical curiosity. The = > 'he' / 'iw' pairing above is an example of this" is factually false = > (even if this has no reaction on IANA's Registry that only registers = > ISO 639-2T code elements) because ISO 639/RA-JAC decided recently (on > 2008-06-28) the deprecation of the ISO 639-2B alpha-3 code elements = > for the languages "Croatian" and "Serbian", to be replaced by the = > corresponding ISO 639-2T code elements. So this text must be changed. There is no claim that *every* withdrawn ISO 639 code appears in the regist= ry, only that some of them do. In particular, the 639-2B elements in quest= ion never appeared previously in the Registry, and therefore do not appear = today either. > -(v) On page 39, inside "3.4 Stability of IANA Registry Entries", = > clause F of point 15 (that seems to be in contradiction with the last = > phrase of clause D of point 4 of 2.2.4., page 14) is absolutely not = > useful. It is now impossible to add a new entry inside ISO 3166-1 = > without giving the three corresponding code elements (alpha-2, alpha-3 = > and numeric-3) to this new entry. In the case, that never occured because= "4.1 List" > of ISO 3166-1 writes "The list of country names in this part of ISO > 3166 ... is based on the list in the "Standard Country or Area Codes = > for Statisdtical Use" established by the United Nations, that the = > division of statistics of UN would refuse to give a numeric-3 code = > element concerning a new entry that ISO 3166/MA has decided to add = > inside ISO 3166-1, ISO 3166/Ma is authorised to choose a numeric-3 = > code element inside the specially reserved 901-999 code list. This is good news. However, based on unfortunate past experiences, BCP 47 = is written so as to avoid, as much as possible, dependencies on particular = RA or MA policies such as this. > -(vi) On page 40, also inside point 15 of 3.4., clause D is similarly = > of no effect. The case that UN M.49 country or area codes exist for = > which there is no corresponding ISO 3166-1 code has no existence. In = > fact, the inverse case exists because old numeric-3 code elements that = > were given in the past by UN M.49 are still utilised by ISO 3166-1 = > even if they are no more effective for UN M.49. This is specioally = > the case for "158" TAIWAN, but also for "074" BOUVET ISLAND and "334" > HEARD ISLAND AND MCDONALD ISLANDS. Same comment. > -(vii) on page 47, inside "3.6. Possibility of Registration", that = > gives, in fine, the postal adress concerning ISO 3166/MAS should be = > lightly modified by replacing the line: "Case postale 56" by the two > lines: "1, chemin de la Voie Creuse Thank you. > -(viii) On page 59, inside "4.1.2. Using Extended Language Subtag", in = > fine, I completely agree with the first phrase of the last paragraph = > that writes "Sign languages share a mode of communication rather than = > a linguistic heritage" and is directly in linewith my previous = > messages on this point. That is to say, they are not descended from another in the way that French = and Spanish are descended from Latin. This is a statement of fact, not pol= icy; sign languages have been known to arise independently in different par= ts of the world, though it is true that (e.g.) American Sign Language is a = descendant of French Sign Language. > -(ix) On page 66, inside"4.6. Considerations for Private Use Subtag", = > the paragraph concerning user-reserved ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 code = > elements should be enriched by adding that "Article 8.2.of ISO 3166-1 = > considers essential that all user should notify to ISO 3166/MA every = > occurrence of their intentions concerning user-assigned code elements, = > so as to coordinate such uses and to avoid that two differents alpha-2 = > code elements be choosen by two different users for the same "country nam= e" > in the same domain of use. > = > For example, there is today no entry and no reserved code element = > inside ISO 3166-1 concerning the country name "KOSOVO". But, as the = > European Union notified the use of the user-reserved alpha-2 code = > element "XK", ISO 3166/MA is stongly recommanding to use "XK" when = > representation of the country name "KOSOVO" is needed. As a matter of implicit policy we abstain from such statements about privat= e-use codes. They who use them in interchange do so entirely at their own = risk. > -(x) On page 77, inside "9.1. Normative References", dates concerning = > ISO 639-1 should be precised "July 2002", idem for ISO 639-2 "October = > 1998, for ISO 639-3 "February 2007" and ISO 646 "December 1991". Thank you. > ISO 8601 should be added, see (iii). See my reply to (iii). > I would also advocate for the addition of ISO 3166-2 :2007. Codes for = > the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions--Part 2: > Country subdivision code", December 2007. 3166-2 codes are not used in BCP 47. A normative reference implies that un= derstanding of the referent is needed to understand BCP 47 fully, which is = not the case for 3166-2. > -(xi) On page 79, inside "9.2. Informative References", I would like = > to add "Glossary of Terms for the Standardization of Geographical = > Names"--United Nations Group of Experts for Geographical = > Names--Statistics Division, Department of Economic and Social = > Affairs--Manual M85--New York, May 2002. "Je ne vois pas la n?cessit?." --Talleyrand > 2.2 In fact, I am completely prepared to admit that "political = > correctness" has gradually pushed "scientific progress" and ISO = > 639/RA-JAC to recognize "Sign languages", that were not initially = > intended to be covered, as possible entries inside ISO 639-3 and ISO > 639-5 and pseudo-linguistic entities. So we observe in french languge = > a shift from "langage des signes", that was historically the only way = > to translate "Sign languages" until recently, to "langue des signes" > that became much more politically correct. But, please, it is not = > necessary to rewrite history for this. [OT] I should characterize this as scientific rather than political correct= ness. Speaking of "le langage des signes", which I should translate as "hu= man gestural communication", covers such things as nodding or shaking the h= ead to symbolize yes or no, or gestures to add emphasis to the spoken voice= such as pointed fingers or shaken fists. These things are utterly distinct from Deaf sign languages. It was in fact a scientific discovery that the communication systems of the= Deaf were not only an example of "le langage des signes", but were also "l= angues" in their own right, with their own phonologies, syntaxes, vocabular= ies, and semantics. As for the derivation of "langue", it is as true in linguistics as in biolo= gy that the historical origin of a feature does not dictate its current uti= lity: the bones of the mammalian middle ear (malleus, incus, stapes) were p= arts of the jaw in the reptilian ancestors, but now used to hear rather tha= n to chew; and although _chef_ in French derives from Latin _caput_ 'head [= of the body]', it would be entirely incorrect to use _chef_ instead of _t?t= e_ (from Latin _testa_ 'pot') to mean 'head' today. Such changes are alway= s going on, and if "langue" now covers languages that do not require a tongue to speak, it is neither s= urprising nor inaccurate. -- = John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Half the lies they tell about me are true. --Tallulah Bankhead, American actress ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru End of Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24 ************************************ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 8 05:59:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43CDB3A6B69; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 05:59:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC583A6B69 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 05:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.222, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u4qvMnl3CmHv for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 05:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BA2F93A6B59 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 05:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30362 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2008 12:59:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.22) with ESMTP; 08 Oct 2008 12:59:26 -0000 Message-ID: <345F951A79B6473CBF21BF37BC584FED@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 06:59:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TGFuZyBHw6lyYXJkIDxnZXJhcmQgZG90IGxhbmcgYXQgaW5zZWUgZG90IGZyPiB3cm90ZToKCj4g MS1MZXQgbWUgc3RyZXNzIHRoYXQgSSBoYXZlLCBpbiBmYWN0LCBubyAic3RyZW51b3VzIG9iamVj dGlvbiIgd2l0aCAKPiB0aGUgcmVjZW50ICJkaXNjb3ZlciIgdGhhdCAibGFuZ2FnZSBkZXMgc2ln 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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1FA128C147; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:04:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C0E28C147 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:04:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.381 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.381 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.795, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xWEUpCvbyBfY for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 26CDE3A6B69 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12385 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2008 13:04:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.183) with ESMTP; 08 Oct 2008 13:04:38 -0000 Message-ID: <8F7E5A3E07374254B5C4B4632FF3CA0C@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:04:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSBoYXZlIG5vIHByb2JsZW0gd2l0aCBpbmNsdWRpbmcgdGhlIHJlZmVyZW5jZSB0byBSRkMgMzMz OTsgSSBqdXN0IAp3YW50ZWQgdG8gcG9pbnQgb3V0IHRoYXQgaXQgY291bGQgYmUgb21pdHRlZCwg dG8gbWFrZSB0aGUgcG9pbnQgYWJvdXQgCklTTyA4NjAxLgoKSSBhbHNvIGhhdmUgbm8gcHJvYmxl bSB3aXRoIG5vdCBpbmNsdWRpbmcgdGhlIGJpdCBhYm91dCBub3RpZnlpbmcgdGhlIApJU08gMzE2 Ni9NQS4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMg NDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYu b3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5k Lm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGll dGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 8 08:41:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD5773A6BEF; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:41:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560AF3A6BEF for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:41:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f3swlQyAQNzS for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F05A3A6BEB for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:41:27 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:41:26 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:41:21 -0700 Thread-Topic: Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24 Thread-Index: AckpDhd34xzFapXfQcCWC+zlT8riZgABBsXwABInu/A= Message-ID: References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E6@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07E6@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lan= g G=E9rard > 1-Let me stress that I have, in fact, no "strenuous objection" > with the recent "discover" that "langage des signes" became > "langue des signes". But I have very strenuous objection about > rewriting history and do not understand the strenuous > resistance to the establishment of history. I agree without > problem that in the past decade "scientific progress" admitted > that "Sign languages" could be assimilated to "languages" > and registered inside ISO 639-3. But I want to be clearly > understood that this was not in the intended scope of ISO 639 > (and of ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2) until 2000. What is the ultimate point of this argument about history? Suppose we all a= gree that the creators of the original ISO 639 standard did not intend sign= ed languages to be within the scope of that standard. So what? What bearing= does that have on the work of this working group? (None whatsoever that I = can see.) > And I cannot prevent me to think that this "discover" is not > completely independant of "political correctness". Call it "political correctness" if you like. In practical terms -- which I = think is all that this WG cares about in this case -- there are real needs = to provide language tags for signed-language content, ISO 639-x currently p= rovides identifiers that are useful for that purpose, and the WG intends to= make use of those to accommodate those needs in RFC 4646bis. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 8 23:56:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA443A6C4F; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:56:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4753A6A43 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:56:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.963 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.963 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.386, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iotMDdAmBoNp for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercure.insee.fr (mercure.insee.fr [81.255.68.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3523A6A21 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by mercure.insee.fr (Insee Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3888913376B; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:57:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BAD79401F; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:57:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cssEgyx9OmNV; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:57:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3C879401E; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:57:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.51]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:57:15 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:57:15 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07EE@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Scope of ISO 3166//// Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 26 thread-index: AckpeEloVvhkPNbTRL2U6QoC6egT2gAXdIvg References: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: , "Doug Ewell" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2008 06:57:15.0978 (UTC) FILETIME=[438F52A0:01C929DC] Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= Subject: [Ltru] Scope of ISO 3166//// Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 26 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Doug, Let me thank you for this message. Concerning the link between the title "Codes for the representation of name= s of countries" and the scope of ISO 3166[-1], I would say that there never= was any ambiguity for people that take the time to read the normative text= of the standard. 1-The first edition (1974) contains article "3 PRINCIPLES FOR THE ENTITY LI= ST" , whose 3.1 writes: "The list includes entities intended to satisfy the requirements of the br= oadest range of applications. The entities appearing in sections one and tw= o of this International standard are based on the list included in the "Cou= ntry Nomenclature for Statistical Use" established by the Statistical Offic= e of the United Nations.":; And 3.2 adds "In order to satisfy various interchange requirements, the lis= t contains overlaps and the entities listed are not mutually exclusive." 3.4 also writes "Entities listed are intended to rerflect current status. H= istorical statusd is not reflected in this International Standard." So, it was clear from the beginning that ISO 3166[-1] was registering overl= apping entities, so that some of them coud certainly not be considered as "= independant countries" 2-The second edition (1981) clarified still this point and contains article= "1 Scope and field of application", whose first paragraph writes: "This International Standard provides basic two-letter alphabetic codes (IS= O alpha-2 coutry code), three-letter codes (ISO alpha-3 country code) for s= pecial,purposes and three-digit numerical codes (ISO numeric-3 country code= ) established by the Statistical Office of the United Nations. The codes re= present the names of countries, dependancies and other areas of special int= erest for purposes of international exchanges...." Further more, inside "3 Principles for the entity list", 3.2 writes: "The list contains overlaps in those cases where entities are geographicall= y separated from their main entity and where a resulting interchange requir= emzent justifies a separate code; the entities are not mutually exclusive. Example: FRANCE, FR, FRA, 250; MARTINIQUE, MQ, MTQ,474." 3-From 1997, when ISO 3166 is splitted into three parts, the common Introd= uction of the three parts of the 3166 standard, as in ISO 3166-1:1997, fift= h edition, and in ISO 3166-1: 2007, sixth edition, writes: "International Standard ISO 3166 provides universally applicable coded repr= esentations of names of countries (current and non-current), dependancies a= ndother areas of particular geopolitical interest and their subdivision. ISO 3166-1 (Country codes) establishes codes that represent the current nam= es of countries, dependancies, and other areas of partcular geopolitical in= terest, on the basis of lists of country names obtained from the United Nat= ions. .........." Amicalement. G=E9rard LANG . -----Message d'origine----- De : ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de ltr= u-request@ietf.org Envoy=E9 : mercredi 8 octobre 2008 21:00 =C0 : ltru@ietf.org Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 26 Send Ltru mailing list submissions to ltru@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ltru-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at ltru-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "R= e: Contents of Ltru digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms (Doug Ewell) 2. Re: UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms (Doug Ewell) 3. Re: Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24 (Peter Constable) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 06:59:26 -0600 From: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms To: "LTRU Working Group" Message-ID: <345F951A79B6473CBF21BF37BC584FED@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed; charset=3D"utf-8"; reply-type=3Doriginal Lang G?rard wrote: > 1-Let me stress that I have, in fact, no "strenuous objection" with = > the recent "discover" that "langage des signes" became "langue des = > signes". But I have very strenuous objection about rewriting history = > and do not understand the strenuous resistance to the establishment of = > history. I agree without problem that in the past decade "scientific = > progress" admitted that "Sign languages" could be assimilated to = > "languages" > and registered inside ISO 639-3. Coding standards, and lists of entities coded to the standard, tend to make= poor history books. Their main purpose is to keep up with changing situat= ions and current needs. If this was indeed a change in scope for ISO 639, = I suggest that looking at it as "rewriting history" is not the correct appr= oach. Standards do sometimes expand beyond the scope implied by the original titl= e, as the needs of their users change. You no doubt understand this from y= our work with ISO 3166, which includes code elements for the names of such = non-country entities as Greenland and British Indian Ocean Territory. I wo= uld consider it wholly inappropriate to criticize ISO 3166 for trying to "rewrite history" by claiming that these entities are co= untries. > But I want to be clearly understood that this was not in the intended = > scope of ISO 639 (and of ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2) until 2000. Perhaps this is true; perhaps the omission of sign languages was simply an = oversight, as Martin suggested. But whatever the scope was before, it now = includes sign languages. > And I cannot prevent me to think that this "discover" is not = > completely independant of "political correctness". You are permitted to think that. > 2-As "codification of the representation of names of countries names = > and their subdivisions" is also clearly not independant from = > "political pressure", ISO 3166 has its share of pressure. So that, to = > give an example, we accepted the request of ROMANIA to change their > alpha-3 code element from "ROM" to "ROU". Yes, that change was well understood as being completely political. = Those of us who deal with language tags were grateful that only the alpha-3 code element was changed, and not the alpha-2. We now have rules i= n place to ensure stability of language tags in case another such change is= approved that does affect the alpha-2. > This is also the case for the addition of "Letzeburgesh" (lb,ltz) or = > "Bosnian" (bs,bos); this would also be the case for the language name = > "Montenegrin" that is now recognized as the official language of = > MONTENEGRO (Maybe you were thinking to Montenegrin when you wrote = > Macedonian ?) and is certainly a new "language name" covered by ISO = > 639.. Yes, I was of course thinking of Montenegrin. Thank you for the correction. Newly formed countries want to establish their own national identity. = This is completely reasonable. Persuading the registration agency for an i= nternational coding standard to register a new code element for "their lang= uage," when it is actually a dialect of an existing language and not a sepa= rate language with mutual unintelligibility, is not reasonable on linguisti= c grounds. It is purely political, much more demonstrably so than includin= g sign languages along with spoken languages in a standard that encodes nam= es of "languages." -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.= ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ? ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:04:38 -0600 From: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] UNGEGN definitions and UNICODe Glossary of terms To: "LTRU Working Group" Message-ID: <8F7E5A3E07374254B5C4B4632FF3CA0C@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed; charset=3D"utf-8"; reply-type=3Doriginal I have no problem with including the reference to RFC 3339; I just wanted t= o point out that it could be omitted, to make the point about ISO 8601. I also have no problem with not including the bit about notifying the ISO 3= 166/MA. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.= ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ? ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:41:21 -0700 From: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24 To: "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: = Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lan= g G?rard > 1-Let me stress that I have, in fact, no "strenuous objection" > with the recent "discover" that "langage des signes" became "langue = > des signes". But I have very strenuous objection about rewriting = > history and do not understand the strenuous resistance to the = > establishment of history. I agree without problem that in the past = > decade "scientific progress" admitted that "Sign languages" could be = > assimilated to "languages" > and registered inside ISO 639-3. But I want to be clearly understood = > that this was not in the intended scope of ISO 639 (and of ISO 639-1 = > and ISO 639-2) until 2000. What is the ultimate point of this argument about history? Suppose we all a= gree that the creators of the original ISO 639 standard did not intend sign= ed languages to be within the scope of that standard. So what? What bearing= does that have on the work of this working group? (None whatsoever that I = can see.) > And I cannot prevent me to think that this "discover" is not = > completely independant of "political correctness". Call it "political correctness" if you like. In practical terms -- which I = think is all that this WG cares about in this case -- there are real needs = to provide language tags for signed-language content, ISO 639-x currently p= rovides identifiers that are useful for that purpose, and the WG intends to= make use of those to accommodate those needs in RFC 4646bis. Peter ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru End of Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 26 ************************************ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 9 05:46:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B9D3A6A7D; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 05:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 927DB3A69FA for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 05:45:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.144 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.144 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.960, BAYES_40=-0.185, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oJK+5ZTKBzqB for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 05:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 95EDA3A68C3 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 05:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24570 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2008 12:45:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.29) with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2008 12:45:54 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07EE@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 06:45:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Lang_G=C3=A9rard?= Subject: Re: [Ltru] Scope of ISO 3166 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:20:37 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:20:34 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:20:28 -0700 Thread-Topic: Scope of ISO 3166//// Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 26 Thread-Index: AckpeEloVvhkPNbTRL2U6QoC6egT2gAXdIvgABTK9DA= Message-ID: References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07EE@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD07EE@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Scope of ISO 3166//// Ltru Digest, Vol 44, Issue 26 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lan= g G=E9rard Thanks for this information. > 1-The first edition (1974) contains article "3 PRINCIPLES > FOR THE ENTITY LIST" , whose 3.1 writes: > "The list includes entities intended to satisfy the requirements > of the broadest range of applications. If that is the case, then the MA should be willing to consider entities for= semantics such as "worldwide", "unknown" and "not applicable", which would= really be helpful in many IT applications. There's no reason why exception= to the norm of having entities established by the UNSO can't be made for s= uch special-purpose entities. > 2-The second edition (1981) clarified still this point and > contains article "1 Scope and field of application", whose first > paragraph writes: > "This International Standard provides basic two-letter alphabetic > codes [etc.]... The codes represent the names of countries, > dependancies and other areas of special interest for purposes of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > international exchanges...." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ In that case, why will the MA not encode entities such as Kosovo which many= organizations doing business with that region must be able to support? The= fact that the MA would consider telling users about other users' private-u= se code elements in cases such as XK suggests to me that there is a real us= er need that is in scope for the standard but that the standard, or the MA = in its practice, is failing to address. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 9 12:31:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A743A6ADE; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:31:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F5513A6ADE for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:31:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lzWqRCdStmYj for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homer.w3.org (ssh.w3.org [128.30.52.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB563A6843 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rishida (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B904EEE3 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:31:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Richard Ishida" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:31:47 +0100 Message-ID: <00e301c92a45$abc9aa00$035cfe00$@org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AckqRatIDK9m5o9LQhGWyg7Bl7Gh8A== Content-Language: en-gb Subject: [Ltru] Comments on RFC4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Just a couple of editorial comments: 1. I felt like sections 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 ought to be in reverse order. 2. I'm cringing at the text in section 4.2 " a tag such as " since it will probably encourage people to think that this is how to declare language in HTML, whereas it is currently not widely interoperable and confuses people wrt attributes in html tag. Why not change the example to say " For example, in the same HTML document described in the preceding bullet, sending an HTTP header containing Content-Language: de might be a way to indicate..." Best, RI ============ Richard Ishida Internationalization Lead W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) http://www.w3.org/International/ http://rishida.net/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 9 12:40:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEDC3A69AC; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:40:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E02F3A69BE for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.585 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.585 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vl-9bXbgNE7d for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E78E3A691E for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,385,1220227200"; d="scan'208,217";a="120101251" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Oct 2008 19:41:01 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m99Jexlq024755 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:41:00 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:40:59 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Richard Ishida , "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:40:58 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Comments on RFC4646bis Thread-Index: AckqRatIDK9m5o9LQhGWyg7Bl7Gh8AAAHzOg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014ED50A38@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <00e301c92a45$abc9aa00$035cfe00$@org> In-Reply-To: <00e301c92a45$abc9aa00$035cfe00$@org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Comments on RFC4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > Just a couple of editorial comments: > > 1. I felt like sections 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 ought to be in reverse > order. (editor hat OFF) The order is somewhat arbitrary. > > 2. I'm cringing at the text in section 4.2 " a tag such as http-equiv="Content-Language" value="de" />" since it will probably > encourage people to think that this is how to declare language in > HTML, whereas it is currently not widely interoperable and confuses > people wrt attributes in html tag. Why not change the example to > say " For example, in the same HTML document described in the > preceding bullet, sending an HTTP header containing Content- > Language: de might be a way to indicate..." is one way to indicate the intended audience. Nonetheless, I like your version better, since there is a lively discussion about what means or should mean and cetera. (editor hat ON) Unless anyone objects, I will update the editor's copy to include Richard's version of the text for 4.2. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 9 14:33:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF953A69CD; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:33:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD31B3A695D for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.826 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.826 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.850, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SrxS+7phk4WW for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B10963A6957 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so70068ywj.49 for ; Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:32:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=McU5qRyTawMthhQbK3Gu0tqZoaNCZeG6NfEbgmr7Nv0=; b=k7nE0VuGcDboaxzNF2matOu0rgTaBrGoYRlGQ2l+Az8BGjzEbaoq1uTGm/Xfv0zyzo 4Bx3Ltg+f+Zz0AduTAQYT4zIY2J+P3m88Y/HLbcn2DwlJfTONWeTh+Vy4YVKsgojSmAL M/Jis9ri7wWg/94HH7skF/+us23E9wtl0ZqCU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ZcjId7M7YefDsiMGm3wtw89zGX01QtHqlPNUHkbChVDTwT5Gs+vmxpCoKa+bt6qscF cBAiMSck1X3rNAxxUL0nkBJIyNuUXLzgNPEvAIyfeWyotjclOMtEpJY0rKzYPN8WGKXZ YT0CE6emD6BPPnIA+IXTbIc4/UimEZclKmCTw= Received: by 10.142.188.4 with SMTP id l4mr343036wff.183.1223587973903; Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810091432w2569e207t26ee13154c813378@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 23:32:53 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014ED50A38@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00e301c92a45$abc9aa00$035cfe00$@org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014ED50A38@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 642292b1c24348ad Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Comments on RFC4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0733148545==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0733148545== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_102404_11747116.1223587973899" ------=_Part_102404_11747116.1223587973899 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No objection. Mark On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > > > Just a couple of editorial comments: > > > > 1. I felt like sections 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 ought to be in reverse > > order. > > (editor hat OFF) > > The order is somewhat arbitrary. > > > > > 2. I'm cringing at the text in section 4.2 " a tag such as > http-equiv="Content-Language" value="de" />" since it will probably > > encourage people to think that this is how to declare language in > > HTML, whereas it is currently not widely interoperable and confuses > > people wrt attributes in html tag. Why not change the example to > > say " For example, in the same HTML document described in the > > preceding bullet, sending an HTTP header containing Content- > > Language: de might be a way to indicate..." > > is one way to indicate the intended audience. Nonetheless, I like > your version better, since there is a lively discussion about what > means or should mean and cetera. > > (editor hat ON) > > Unless anyone objects, I will update the editor's copy to include Richard's > version of the text for 4.2. > > Addison > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_102404_11747116.1223587973899 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
No objection.

Mark


On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Just a couple of editorial comments:
>
> 1. I felt like sections 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 ought to be in reverse
> order.

(editor hat OFF)

The order is somewhat arbitrary.

>
> 2. I'm cringing at the text in section 4.2 " a tag such as <meta
> http-equiv="Content-Language" value="de" />" since it will probably
> encourage people to think that this is how to declare language in
> HTML, whereas it is currently not widely interoperable and confuses
> people wrt attributes in html tag.  Why not change the example to
> say " For example, in the same HTML document described in the
> preceding bullet, sending an HTTP header containing Content-
> Language: de might be a way to indicate..."

<meta> is one way to indicate the intended audience. Nonetheless, I like your version better, since there is a lively discussion about what <meta> means or should mean and cetera.

(editor hat ON)

Unless anyone objects, I will update the editor's copy to include Richard's version of the text for 4.2.

Addison


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_102404_11747116.1223587973899-- --===============0733148545== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0733148545==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 00:44:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0092528C0FC; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:44:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5D93A682B for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:44:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.239 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.239 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.271, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iLv8+B6eVHJr for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D56A3A63D3 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.23]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m9A7iLja024357 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:44:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 317c_402950fe_969f_11dd_8c34_001d0969ab06; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:44:21 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:43861) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:37:07 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081010164157.092c6c58@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:43:44 +0900 To: "Phillips, Addison" , Richard Ishida , "'LTRU Working Group'" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014ED50A38@EX-SEA5-D.ant.a mazon.com> References: <00e301c92a45$abc9aa00$035cfe00$@org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014ED50A38@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Comments on RFC4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 04:40 08/10/10, Phillips, Addison answered Richard Ishida: >> 2. I'm cringing at the text in section 4.2 " a tag such as > http-equiv="Content-Language" value="de" />" since it will probably >> encourage people to think that this is how to declare language in >> HTML, whereas it is currently not widely interoperable and confuses >> people wrt attributes in html tag. Why not change the example to >> say " For example, in the same HTML document described in the >> preceding bullet, sending an HTTP header containing Content- >> Language: de might be a way to indicate..." > > is one way to indicate the intended audience. Nonetheless, I like >your version better, since there is a lively discussion about what >means or should mean and cetera. > >(editor hat ON) > >Unless anyone objects, I will update the editor's copy to include Richard's >version of the text for 4.2. [technical contributor hat on] I support this change, in particular also because there is actually no 'value' attribute on the element in HTML (see http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-META). [chair hat on] If you disagree with this late but minor change, please speek up soon. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 02:10:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5A128C0F9; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:10:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CA7D3A6ADE for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:10:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.496 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.496 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.473, BAYES_20=-0.74, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gMhKgLlfU0aY for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D983A67D8 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m9A9BJG9012709 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:11:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2ec3_66acf670_96ab_11dd_8f13_0014221fa3c9; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:11:19 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:44495) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:04:05 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081010180328.09484248@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:08:28 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 22:15 08/10/03, Doug Ewell wrote: >I request that the co-chairs declare a Last Call on >draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06. As requested by Doug, I herewith declare a WG Last Call on draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt. In my recollection, this is the first WG Last Call on this document, and in accordance with IETF practice, it will therefore last for 2 weeks. The deadline for comments is Sunday, October 26, 24:00 Hawai'ian time. Everybody please read the document and send in comments, saying that it is okay as is or telling us what you think needs to be changed. Please note that while the document is extremely long, the textual parts are rather short, and comments only on the textual parts are also very welcome (of course, checking the data, either by machine or manually, is also very much appreciated). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 02:35:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB0203A6ACD; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:35:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53D828C13E for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:35:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.34 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XkzmYRW1r3dc for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08E6E3A6778 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 5058C1C0136; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:35:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD441C0135; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:35:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42208A1DA2B; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:35:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:35:55 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Martin Duerst Message-ID: <20081010093555.GA17045@nic.fr> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081010180328.09484248@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081010180328.09484248@localhost> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 06:08:28PM +0900, Martin Duerst wrote a message of 30 lines which said: > As requested by Doug, I herewith declare a WG Last Call on > draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt. I've reviewed the document (do not worry, I take my time and I did it before the last call). As already mentioned here, I automatically tested the new registry (for things like broken pointers to languages) and found no error. I do not see any serious problem with the text either. A few editorial details: * "inverted", used several times, does not seem to be formally defined somewhere * I'm a bit concerned that the rationale for the list of macrolanguages in 2.2 is not exposed. If you want to know why Akan is treated differently from Uzbek, you have to dig into the LTRU archives. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 06:10:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E323A684C; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:10:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C76F3A684C for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:10:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.303 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.303 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pCbX9G1Lft3A for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.221]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C3C13A67CC for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15966 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2008 13:10:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.221) with ESMTP; 10 Oct 2008 13:10:13 -0000 Message-ID: <28F71D4CCDB5423F93623B8086432DCD@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:10:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org U3TDqXBoYW5lIEJvcnR6bWV5ZXIgPGJvcnR6bWV5ZXIgYXQgbmljIGRvdCBmcj4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IEEgZmV3IGVkaXRvcmlhbCBkZXRhaWxzOgo+Cj4gKiAiaW52ZXJ0ZWQiLCB1c2VkIHNldmVyYWwg dGltZXMsIGRvZXMgbm90IHNlZW0gdG8gYmUgZm9ybWFsbHkgZGVmaW5lZCAKPiBzb21ld2hlcmUK CkkgZGlkIGluY2x1ZGUgYW4gZXhhbXBsZSBhdCB0aGUgZW5kIG9mIHRoaXMgcGFyYWdyYXBoIChz ZWNvbmQgYnVsbGV0IApwb2ludCBvZiBTZWN0aW9uIDIuMSk6CgoiRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHRoaXMg ZmlsZSBjb250YWluZWQgYW4gZW50cnkgZm9yIHRoZSBjb2RlIGVsZW1lbnQg4oCYcHJz4oCZIAp3 aXRoIHRoZSBuYW1lIOKAnERhcmnigJ0gKHR3aWNlKSBhbmQgYW5vdGhlciBlbnRyeSB3aXRoIHRo ZSBuYW1lcyAnRWFzdGVybiAKRmFyc2knIGFuZCAnRmFyc2ksIEVhc3Rlcm4nLiIKCldvdWxkIGl0 IGJlIGJldHRlciB0byBhbm5vdGF0ZSB0aGVzZSBleGFtcGxlcyBvciBhY3R1YWxseSBwcm92aWRl IGEgCmZvcm1hbCBkZWZpbml0aW9uPyAgRm9yIHRoZSBmb3JtZXIsIEkgbWlnaHQgc3VnZ2VzdDoK CiIuLi4gYW5kIGFub3RoZXIgZW50cnkgd2l0aCB0aGUgbm9uLWludmVydGVkIG5hbWUgJ0Vhc3Rl cm4gRmFyc2knIGFuZCAKdGhlIGNvcnJlc3BvbmRpbmcgaW52ZXJ0ZWQgbmFtZSAnRmFyc2ksIEVh c3Rlcm4nLiIKCkZvciB0aGUgbGF0dGVyLCBhIG5ldyBzZW50ZW5jZSBsaWtlIHRoaXMgbWlnaHQg YmUgaW5zZXJ0ZWQgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIApzZW50ZW5jZSBlbmRpbmcgd2l0aCAiYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUi OgoKIkFuICdpbnZlcnRlZCcgbmFtZSBpcyBvbmUgd2hpY2ggaXMgYWx0ZXJlZCBmcm9tIHRoZSB1 c3VhbCAKRW5nbGlzaC1sYW5ndWFnZSBvcmRlciBieSBtb3ZpbmcgYWRqZWN0aXZhbCBxdWFsaWZp ZXJzIHRvIHRoZSBmcm9udCwgCmJlZm9yZSB0aGUgbWFpbiBsYW5ndWFnZSBuYW1lLCBhbmQgc2Vw YXJhdGVkIGJ5IGEgY29tbWEuIgoKTGV0IG1lIGtub3cgd2hpY2ggYWx0ZXJuYXRpdmUgKHBvc3Np Ymx5IGVkaXRlZCkgbWlnaHQgYmUgYmV0dGVyLgoKPiAqIEknbSBhIGJpdCBjb25jZXJuZWQgdGhh dCB0aGUgcmF0aW9uYWxlIGZvciB0aGUgbGlzdCBvZiAKPiBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlcyBpbiAyLjIg aXMgbm90IGV4cG9zZWQuIElmIHlvdSB3YW50IHRvIGtub3cgd2h5IEFrYW4gaXMgCj4gdHJlYXRl ZCBkaWZmZXJlbnRseSBmcm9tIFV6YmVrLCB5b3UgaGF2ZSB0byBkaWcgaW50byB0aGUgTFRSVSAK PiBhcmNoaXZlcy4KClRoaXMgaXMgZXhwcmVzc2VkIGluIHRoZSBzZWNvbmQgc2VudGVuY2Ugb2Yg dGhlIHNlY29uZCBwYXJhZ3JhcGgsIHJpZ2h0IAphZnRlciB0aGUgbGlzdDoKCiJUaGVzZSBtYWNy b2xhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3Mgd2VyZSBhbHJlYWR5IHByZXNlbnQgaW4gdGhlIExhbmd1YWdlIFN1 YnRhZyAKUmVnaXN0cnkgYW5kIHdlcmUgZGV0ZXJtaW5lZCBieSB0aGUgTFRSVSBXb3JraW5nIEdy b3VwIHRvIGhhdmUgYmVlbiB1c2VkIAp0byByZXByZXNlbnQgYSBzaW5nbGUgZG9taW5hbnQgbGFu Z3VhZ2UgYXMgd2VsbCBhcyB0aGUgbWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZSBhcyAKYSB3aG9sZSwgbWFraW5nIHRo ZSBleHRlbmRlZCBsYW5ndWFnZSBtZWNoYW5pc20gc3VpdGFibGUgZm9yIGxhbmd1YWdlcyAKZW5j b21wYXNzZWQgYnkgdGhlIG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UuIgoKU2hvdWxkIHRoaXMgc2VudGVuY2UgYmUg bW9yZSBleHBsaWNpdCBpbiBzdGF0aW5nIHRoZSByZWFzb24gZm9yIHNpbmdsaW5nIApvdXQgdGhl c2UgbGFuZ3VhZ2VzPyAgTWF5YmUgc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgdGhpczoKCiIuLi4gYW5kIHdlcmUg Y2hvc2VuIGJlY2F1c2UgdGhleSB3ZXJlIGRldGVybWluZWQgYnkgdGhlIExUUlUgV29ya2luZyAK R3JvdXAgdG8gaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHVzZWQuLi4iCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwg Q29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGlj Lm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1s Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2Vz ICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRy dSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 06:31:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C3AC28C13D; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:31:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD44E3A67E3 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:31:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.266 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BSgBLpqfoaCC for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D9A3A69C9 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A64B1C012B; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:31:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155D01C011F; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:31:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095EC6C05B0; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:31:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:31:04 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20081010133104.GA19931@nic.fr> References: <28F71D4CCDB5423F93623B8086432DCD@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <28F71D4CCDB5423F93623B8086432DCD@DGBP7M81> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 07:10:12AM -0600, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 54 lines which said: > For the latter, a new sentence like this might be inserted after the > sentence ending with "appropriate": > > "An 'inverted' name is one which is altered from the usual > English-language order by moving adjectival qualifiers to the front, > before the main language name, and separated by a comma." I prefer a formal definition like this one. It is specially useful since I always thought that "Farsi, Eastern", with the qualifier at the end, was the inverted form. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 07:25:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45233A698C; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:25:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1003A698C for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:25:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.11 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HKs1ybErDXaD for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.228.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A453A6A34 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACDD2BC71; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:26:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S5N99KjENmwn; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:26:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p4247-ipad94marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [219.160.112.247]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9B252BC6B; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:26:26 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <48EF660D.2050409@w3.org> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:26:21 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081010180328.09484248@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081010180328.09484248@localhost> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org ZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LTQ2NDZiaXMtMTcgc2F5cyBpbiBzZWMuIDMuMS4zOgoKIkRlcHJlY2F0 ZWQncyBmaWVsZC1ib2R5IGNvbnRhaW5zIHRoZSBkYXRlIHRoZSByZWNvcmQgd2FzIGRlcHJlY2F0 ZWQuIEluIApzb21lIGNhc2VzIHRoaXMgdmFsdWUgaXMgYmVmb3JlIHRoYXQgb2YgdGhlIGFzc29j aWF0ZWQgJ0FkZGVkJyBmaWVsZCBpbiAKdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5LiIKCkFsdGhvdWdoIHRoaXMgdGhy ZWFkIGlzIGZvciB0aGUgbGFzdCBjYWxsIG9mIDQ2NDViaXMsIEkgYW0gd29uZGVyaW5nIAphYm91 dCB0aGUgcmVhc29uIGZvciB0aGUgc3RhdGVtZW50LiAiSW4gc29tZSBjYXNlcyB0aGlzIHZhbHVl IGlzIGJlZm9yZSAKdGhhdCBvZiB0aGUgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCAnQWRkZWQnIGZpZWxkIGluIHRoZSBy ZWdpc3RyeS4iLCBzaW5jZSB0aGUgb3JkaW5nIApvZiBmaWVsZHMgaW4gNDY0NWJpcyBpcyBub3Qg cmVxdWlyZWQuCgpJIGNyZWF0ZWQgKHlldCBhbm90aGVyKSBYTUwgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiB0aGUgcmVn aXN0cnksIHNlZQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy8yMDA4LzA1L2x0YS8wMi9sc3IueG1sCkFuZCBh IHNjaGVtYSBmb3IgaXRzIHZhbGlkYXRpb24KaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwOC8wNS9sdGEv MDIvbHNyLnhzZApXaGljaCBjaGVja3MgdmFyaW91cyBNVVNUUyBmcm9tIHNlYy4gMy4xIG9mIGRy YWZ0LWlldGYtbHRydS00NjQ2YmlzLTE3IAphZ2FpbnN0IHRoZSA0NjQ1YmlzIGRyYWZ0LiBJIGRp ZCBub3QgZmluZCBhbnkgZXJyb3JzLiBJIGFsc28gcmVhZCB0aGUgCnRleHQgb2YgZHJhZnQtaWV0 Zi1sdHJ1LTQ2NDZiaXMtMTcgYW5kIGRpZCBub3QgZmluZCBhbnkgaXNzdWVzLgoKRmVsaXgKCk1h cnRpbiBEdWVyc3Qg44GV44KT44Gv5pu444GN44G+44GX44GfOgo+IEF0IDIyOjE1IDA4LzEwLzAz LCBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsIHdyb3RlOgo+ICAgCj4+IEkgcmVxdWVzdCB0aGF0IHRoZSBjby1jaGFpcnMg ZGVjbGFyZSBhIExhc3QgQ2FsbCBvbiAKPj4gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LTQ2NDViaXMtMDYuIAo+ PiAgICAgCj4KPiBBcyByZXF1ZXN0ZWQgYnkgRG91ZywgSSBoZXJld2l0aCBkZWNsYXJlIGEgV0cg TGFzdCBDYWxsIG9uCj4gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LTQ2NDViaXMtMDYudHh0LiBJbiBteSByZWNv bGxlY3Rpb24sIHRoaXMgaXMKPiB0aGUgZmlyc3QgV0cgTGFzdCBDYWxsIG9uIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1l bnQsIGFuZCBpbiBhY2NvcmRhbmNlCj4gd2l0aCBJRVRGIHByYWN0aWNlLCBpdCB3aWxsIHRoZXJl Zm9yZSBsYXN0IGZvciAyIHdlZWtzLgo+IFRoZSBkZWFkbGluZSBmb3IgY29tbWVudHMgaXMgU3Vu ZGF5LCBPY3RvYmVyIDI2LCAyNDowMCBIYXdhaSdpYW4KPiB0aW1lLgo+Cj4gRXZlcnlib2R5IHBs ZWFzZSByZWFkIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCBhbmQgc2VuZCBpbiBjb21tZW50cywKPiBzYXlpbmcgdGhh dCBpdCBpcyBva2F5IGFzIGlzIG9yIHRlbGxpbmcgdXMgd2hhdCB5b3UgdGhpbmsKPiBuZWVkcyB0 byBiZSBjaGFuZ2VkLiBQbGVhc2Ugbm90ZSB0aGF0IHdoaWxlIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudAo+IGlzIGV4 dHJlbWVseSBsb25nLCB0aGUgdGV4dHVhbCBwYXJ0cyBhcmUgcmF0aGVyIHNob3J0LAo+IGFuZCBj b21tZW50cyBvbmx5IG9uIHRoZSB0ZXh0dWFsIHBhcnRzIGFyZSBhbHNvIHZlcnkgd2VsY29tZQo+ IChvZiBjb3Vyc2UsIGNoZWNraW5nIHRoZSBkYXRhLCBlaXRoZXIgYnkgbWFjaGluZSBvciBtYW51 YWxseSwKPiBpcyBhbHNvIHZlcnkgbXVjaCBhcHByZWNpYXRlZCkuCj4KPiBSZWdhcmRzLCAgICBN YXJ0aW4uCj4gIAo+Cj4KPiAjLSMtIyAgTWFydGluIEouIER1InJzdCwgQXNzb2MuIFByb2Zlc3Nv ciwgQW95YW1hIEdha3VpbiBVbml2ZXJzaXR5Cj4gIy0jLSMgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuc3cuaXQuYW95 YW1hLmFjLmpwICAgICAgIG1haWx0bzpkdWVyc3RAaXQuYW95YW1hLmFjLmpwICAgICAKPgo+IF9f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCj4gTHRydSBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QKPiBMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cj4gICAKCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 07:52:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 847B53A69FF; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:52:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD5C3A69FF for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:52:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n-lAn+Iq4uV7 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9513A6829 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 25CB51C023A for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:52:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218DC1C01CC for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:52:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16488A1DA63 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:52:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:52:48 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <20081010145248.GA722@nic.fr> References: <28F71D4CCDB5423F93623B8086432DCD@DGBP7M81> <20081010133104.GA19931@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20081010133104.GA19931@nic.fr> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 03:31:04PM +0200, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote a message of 19 lines which said: > > "An 'inverted' name is one which is altered from the usual > > English-language order by moving adjectival qualifiers to the front, > > before the main language name, and separated by a comma." > > I prefer a formal definition like this one. It is specially useful > since I always thought that "Farsi, Eastern", with the qualifier at > the end, was the inverted form. After discussion with Doug, it is now clear that there was a little bug in the definition ("front" instead of "end"). So, "Farsi, Eastern" *is* the inverted form and "Eastern Farsi" the non-inverted. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 08:52:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A61F3A687F; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:52:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7378E3A63D2 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:52:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4kNEYFNwqBFP for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AD13A687F for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:52:46 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:52:45 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Doug Ewell Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:52:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt Thread-Index: Ackq3J14m4/5f9keT5iV61M/GApQgQAE0xeQ Message-ID: References: <28F71D4CCDB5423F93623B8086432DCD@DGBP7M81> <20081010133104.GA19931@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20081010133104.GA19931@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Isn't "Farsi, Eastern" the inverted form? The usual English-language order would be "Eastern Farsi". Surely Doug must have meant "moving adjectival qualifiers to the end, after the main language name, and separated by a comma." Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 6:31 AM To: Doug Ewell Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 07:10:12AM -0600, Doug Ewell wrote a message of 54 lines which said: > For the latter, a new sentence like this might be inserted after the > sentence ending with "appropriate": > > "An 'inverted' name is one which is altered from the usual > English-language order by moving adjectival qualifiers to the front, > before the main language name, and separated by a comma." I prefer a formal definition like this one. It is specially useful since I always thought that "Farsi, Eastern", with the qualifier at the end, was the inverted form. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 11:05:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314193A689F; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:05:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADF93A685D for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:05:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.255 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.255 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.345, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QcIO6QZnmNPW for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s36.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s36.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.111]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11523A6838 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W36 ([65.55.116.74]) by blu0-omc3-s36.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:06:40 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [74.254.68.141] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:06:39 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2008 18:06:40.0409 (UTC) FILETIME=[F1D6E090:01C92B02] Cc: doug@ewellic.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt (editorial comment inverted noun phrase) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi! Regarding Stephane's comments about: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06 From: "Doug Ewell"> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:10:12 -0600 > St=E9phane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> A few editorial details: >> * "inverted", used several times, does not seem to be formally defined s= omewhere I had little problem with the lack of a formal definition here, but you can= certainly add one! It would not hurt, but keep it brief. > "... and another entry with the non-inverted name 'Eastern Farsi' and the= corresponding inverted name 'Farsi, Eastern'." > For the latter, a new sentence like this might be inserted after the sent= ence ending with "appropriate": > "An 'inverted' name is one which is altered from the usual English-langua= ge order by moving adjectival qualifiers to the front, before the main lang= uage name, and separated by a comma." "altered from the usual English-language order" is a bit awkward; sounds li= ke a hurried attempt. > Let me know which alternative (possibly edited) might be better. * * * What about?? "A(n English language) name is inverted by moving the adjectival qualfier s= o that it follows the substantive (noun) (in the name); the adjectival qual= ifier in this case is separated from the substantive (noun) by a comma." ?? Thanks! (Do what you like with the text in parentheses--delete it, leave it in pare= ntheses, or take off the parentheses.) --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 11:17:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6603A6806; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:17:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DCB93A6806 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:17:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.586 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.586 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.013, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lS-pVLtjRhlE for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B80D3A67F5 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:17:03 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,391,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="120522233" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Oct 2008 18:17:18 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m9AIHHbB003701 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:17:17 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:17:16 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:17:15 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt (editorial comment inverted noun phrase) Thread-Index: AckrAvYsxxdiQpN+QCiem98C3fgTrgAAHl+g Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014EED30C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "doug@ewellic.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt (editorial comment inverted noun phrase) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > * * * > What about?? > "A(n English language) name is inverted by moving the adjectival > qualfier so that it follows the substantive (noun) (in the name); > the adjectival qualifier in this case is separated from the > substantive (noun) by a comma." > ?? > What about having the definition in English instead? ;-) -- A name is "inverted" if modifiers in the name have been moved after the noun and separated by a comma. For example, "Ndebele, North" is the inverted form of "North Ndebele". -- Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 17:14:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2033A6ADD; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0923A6ADD for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:14:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.425, BAYES_05=-1.11, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id trWnn9NljFRx for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.38]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 54BE33A6AD2 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15907 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2008 00:15:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.38) with ESMTP; 11 Oct 2008 00:15:26 -0000 Message-ID: <84E5ADA72C9B49D482EB40FA50ACCD85@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <28F71D4CCDB5423F93623B8086432DCD@DGBP7M81> <20081010133104.GA19931@nic.fr> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:15:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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11 Oct 2008 00:22:43 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:22:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RmVsaXggU2FzYWtpIDxmc2FzYWtpIGF0IHczIGRvdCBvcmc+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBkcmFmdC1pZXRm LWx0cnUtNDY0NmJpcy0xNyBzYXlzIGluIHNlYy4gMy4xLjM6Cj4KPiAiRGVwcmVjYXRlZCdzIGZp ZWxkLWJvZHkgY29udGFpbnMgdGhlIGRhdGUgdGhlIHJlY29yZCB3YXMgZGVwcmVjYXRlZC4gCj4g SW4gc29tZSBjYXNlcyB0aGlzIHZhbHVlIGlzIGJlZm9yZSB0aGF0IG9mIHRoZSBhc3NvY2lhdGVk ICdBZGRlZCcgCj4gZmllbGQgaW4gdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5LiIKPgo+IEFsdGhvdWdoIHRoaXMgdGhy ZWFkIGlzIGZvciB0aGUgbGFzdCBjYWxsIG9mIDQ2NDViaXMsIEkgYW0gd29uZGVyaW5nIAo+IGFi b3V0IHRoZSByZWFzb24gZm9yIHRoZSBzdGF0ZW1lbnQuICJJbiBzb21lIGNhc2VzIHRoaXMgdmFs dWUgaXMgCj4gYmVmb3JlIHRoYXQgb2YgdGhlIGFzc29jaWF0ZWQgJ0FkZGVkJyBmaWVsZCBpbiB0 aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkuIiwgc2luY2UgCj4gdGhlIG9yZGluZyBvZiBmaWVsZHMgaW4gNDY0NWJpcyBp cyBub3QgcmVxdWlyZWQuCgpJbiB0aGlzIHBhc3NhZ2UsICJiZWZvcmUiIHJlZmVycyB0byB0aGUg ZGF0ZXMgdGhlbXNlbHZlcywgbm90IHRoZSBvcmRlciAKb2YgZmllbGRzIHdpdGhpbiB0aGUgcmVj b3JkLgoKQW4gZXhhbXBsZSBvZiB0aGlzIGlzOgoKVHlwZTogbGFuZ3VhZ2UKU3VidGFnOiBpbgpE ZXNjcmlwdGlvbjogSW5kb25lc2lhbgpBZGRlZDogMjAwNS0xMC0xNgpQcmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWU6 IGlkCkRlcHJlY2F0ZWQ6IDE5ODktMDEtMDEKU3VwcHJlc3MtU2NyaXB0OiBMYXRuCgpJbiBlc3Nl bmNlLCB0aGUgcmVjb3JkIHdhcyBkZXByZWNhdGVkIGJlZm9yZSBiaXJ0aC4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdl bGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApo dHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMv bHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 17:35:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92753A6AD2; 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Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:36:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p3183-ipad404marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.146.131.183]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FC52BC72; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:36:17 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <48EFF4F9.7070205@w3.org> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:36:09 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell References: In-Reply-To: Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org VGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIGV4cGxhbmF0aW9uLCBhbmQgc29ycnkgZm9yIHRoZSBtaXN1bmRl cnN0YW5kaW5nLgoKRmVsaXgKCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwg44GV44KT44Gv5pu444GN44G+44GX44GfOgo+ IEZlbGl4IFNhc2FraSA8ZnNhc2FraSBhdCB3MyBkb3Qgb3JnPiB3cm90ZToKPgo+PiBkcmFmdC1p ZXRmLWx0cnUtNDY0NmJpcy0xNyBzYXlzIGluIHNlYy4gMy4xLjM6Cj4+Cj4+ICJEZXByZWNhdGVk J3MgZmllbGQtYm9keSBjb250YWlucyB0aGUgZGF0ZSB0aGUgcmVjb3JkIHdhcyBkZXByZWNhdGVk LiAKPj4gSW4gc29tZSBjYXNlcyB0aGlzIHZhbHVlIGlzIGJlZm9yZSB0aGF0IG9mIHRoZSBhc3Nv Y2lhdGVkICdBZGRlZCcgCj4+IGZpZWxkIGluIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeS4iCj4+Cj4+IEFsdGhvdWdo IHRoaXMgdGhyZWFkIGlzIGZvciB0aGUgbGFzdCBjYWxsIG9mIDQ2NDViaXMsIEkgYW0gd29uZGVy aW5nIAo+PiBhYm91dCB0aGUgcmVhc29uIGZvciB0aGUgc3RhdGVtZW50LiAiSW4gc29tZSBjYXNl cyB0aGlzIHZhbHVlIGlzIAo+PiBiZWZvcmUgdGhhdCBvZiB0aGUgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCAnQWRkZWQn IGZpZWxkIGluIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeS4iLCBzaW5jZSAKPj4gdGhlIG9yZGluZyBvZiBmaWVsZHMg aW4gNDY0NWJpcyBpcyBub3QgcmVxdWlyZWQuCj4KPiBJbiB0aGlzIHBhc3NhZ2UsICJiZWZvcmUi IHJlZmVycyB0byB0aGUgZGF0ZXMgdGhlbXNlbHZlcywgbm90IHRoZSAKPiBvcmRlciBvZiBmaWVs ZHMgd2l0aGluIHRoZSByZWNvcmQuCj4KPiBBbiBleGFtcGxlIG9mIHRoaXMgaXM6Cj4KPiBUeXBl OiBsYW5ndWFnZQo+IFN1YnRhZzogaW4KPiBEZXNjcmlwdGlvbjogSW5kb25lc2lhbgo+IEFkZGVk OiAyMDA1LTEwLTE2Cj4gUHJlZmVycmVkLVZhbHVlOiBpZAo+IERlcHJlY2F0ZWQ6IDE5ODktMDEt MDEKPiBTdXBwcmVzcy1TY3JpcHQ6IExhdG4KPgo+IEluIGVzc2VuY2UsIHRoZSByZWNvcmQgd2Fz IGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgYmVmb3JlIGJpcnRoLgo+Cj4gLS0gCj4gRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50 b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5l d2VsbGljLm9yZwo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFy dGVyLmh0bWwKPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRm LWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKPgo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fCj4gTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKPiBMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1CgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9y ZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 18:15:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41983A6ADC; 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d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=+UI9anaWlEYJMJ+XzOnXz4fgLK+fUTVGD6dc9sMHc1c=; b=lO2fHXQneXVFPaKothFnN72EdMjU7W4RG78qvLexHoO7Q1hpNJufPxaiXrvc2MTjrE J+7ioDj/vOgsojzAIXyan1+0nA+zDEI7o4hGRaUyh6DNHz3DbD2x5mBPv2H0bM2BeWAP GfU0hAsKe2EE5wFfsAh9t/DWu8SK+M5eqqxOg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=PfNK3skPlG/gE+lxNb8FKhrxNcHP37O+MhStzXkDoctYG+pHIyn9SOmJeREP0uwfjI 5jWQE9Zvzcf7rONdAd0pyhu8tXgvB2b3Mh7E1DwnG7wzhj6RhYUgUhsdOdEpRF2wmzfi d74EiTtDZGvAf2wtadFNY+olsTOeS4Mb29vXA= Received: by 10.100.93.19 with SMTP id q19mr3398010anb.156.1223711707297; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.194.15 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20810110055k7fc6cfddn96691f782ebf90f7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:55:07 +0200 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014EED30C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014EED30C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a603d16e2ac481db Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" , "doug@ewellic.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt (editorial comment inverted noun phrase) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0316499324==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0316499324== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_91127_20667881.1223711707279" ------=_Part_91127_20667881.1223711707279 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1 Mark On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > > > * * * > > What about?? > > "A(n English language) name is inverted by moving the adjectival > > qualfier so that it follows the substantive (noun) (in the name); > > the adjectival qualifier in this case is separated from the > > substantive (noun) by a comma." > > ?? > > > > What about having the definition in English instead? ;-) > > -- > A name is "inverted" if modifiers in the name have been moved after the > noun and separated by a comma. For example, "Ndebele, North" is the inverted > form of "North Ndebele". > -- > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_91127_20667881.1223711707279 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
+1

Mark


On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> * * *
> What about??
> "A(n English language) name is inverted by moving the adjectival
> qualfier so that it follows the substantive (noun) (in the name);
> the adjectival qualifier in this case is separated from the
> substantive (noun) by a comma."
> ??
>

What about having the definition in English instead? ;-)

--
A name is "inverted" if modifiers in the name have been moved after the noun and separated by a comma. For example, "Ndebele, North" is the inverted form of "North Ndebele".
--

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.



_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_91127_20667881.1223711707279-- --===============0316499324== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0316499324==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Oct 11 15:15:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18AF63A68B9; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:15:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4473A67B5 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:15:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.948, BAYES_50=0.001, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qq3SIDBo14vS for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A154C3A67F6 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24540 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2008 22:16:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.35) with ESMTP; 11 Oct 2008 22:16:09 -0000 Message-ID: <4ED23EF1855049D5AC82CED8D8D2F0DD@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:16:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: [Ltru] Editor's copy: draft-4645bis-07 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org U2luY2Ugd2UndmUgbm93IHJlY2VpdmVkIGEgY291cGxlIG9mIG1pbm9yIExhc3QgQ2FsbCBlZGl0 cyB0byAKZHJhZnQtNDY0NWJpcy0wNiwgSSd2ZSBnb25lIGFoZWFkIGFuZCBjcmVhdGVkIGFuIGVk aXRvcidzIGNvcHkgb2YgCmRyYWZ0LTQ2NDViaXMtMDcgdGhhdCByZWZsZWN0cyB0aGVzZSBjaGFu Z2VzLCBhbG9uZyB3aXRoIHRoZSB0d28gbmV3IAp2YXJpYW50IHN1YnRhZ3MgdGhhdCBoYXZlIGJl ZW4gcmVnaXN0ZXJlZCByZWNlbnRseS4KClRoaXMgbmV3IGVkaXRvcidzIGNvcHkgaXMgYXZhaWxh YmxlIGluIHRoZSB1c3VhbCBzbW9yZ2FzYm9yZCBvZiAKdmFyaWV0aWVzOiBIVE1MLCB0ZXh0LCB6 aXBwZWQsIFVURi04LCBOQ1JzLCBldGMuCgpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnL3JmYzQ2NDVi aXMuaHRtbAoKUGxlYXNlIGNvbnRpbnVlIHRvIHJldmlldyBkcmFmdC0wNiwgYXMgdGhpcyBpcyB0 aGUgdmVyc2lvbiBvZmZpY2lhbGx5IAp1bmRlciBMYXN0IENhbGwgdGhyb3VnaCBPY3RvYmVyIDI2 LCB1bmxlc3MgeW91IGFyZSBzcGVjaWZpY2FsbHkgCmNvbW1lbnRpbmcgb24gdGhlIGNvbW1lbnRz LiAgUGVvcGxlIHdobyBhcmUgcnVubmluZyB0aGUgUmVnaXN0cnkgdGV4dCAKdGhyb3VnaCB0aGVp ciB0ZXN0aW5nIGVuZ2luZXMgbWF5IHdhbnQgdG8gdGVzdCBib3RoLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAg KiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6 Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1 LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9p ZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 12 16:21:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3516D3A6B26; 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Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:22:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p8182-ipad409marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.146.176.182]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0402BBF2; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:22:36 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <48F286B6.9000309@w3.org> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:22:30 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell References: <4ED23EF1855049D5AC82CED8D8D2F0DD@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <4ED23EF1855049D5AC82CED8D8D2F0DD@DGBP7M81> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Editor's copy: draft-4645bis-07 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RG91ZyBFd2VsbCDjgZXjgpPjga/mm7jjgY3jgb7jgZfjgZ86Cj4gU2luY2Ugd2UndmUgbm93IHJl Y2VpdmVkIGEgY291cGxlIG9mIG1pbm9yIExhc3QgQ2FsbCBlZGl0cyB0byAKPiBkcmFmdC00NjQ1 YmlzLTA2LCBJJ3ZlIGdvbmUgYWhlYWQgYW5kIGNyZWF0ZWQgYW4gZWRpdG9yJ3MgY29weSBvZiAK PiBkcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzLTA3IHRoYXQgcmVmbGVjdHMgdGhlc2UgY2hhbmdlcywgYWxvbmcgd2l0 aCB0aGUgdHdvIG5ldyAKPiB2YXJpYW50IHN1YnRhZ3MgdGhhdCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gcmVnaXN0ZXJl ZCByZWNlbnRseS4KPgo+IFRoaXMgbmV3IGVkaXRvcidzIGNvcHkgaXMgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGluIHRo ZSB1c3VhbCBzbW9yZ2FzYm9yZCBvZiAKPiB2YXJpZXRpZXM6IEhUTUwsIHRleHQsIHppcHBlZCwg VVRGLTgsIE5DUnMsIGV0Yy4KPgo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcvcmZjNDY0NWJpcy5o dG1sCj4KPiBQbGVhc2UgY29udGludWUgdG8gcmV2aWV3IGRyYWZ0LTA2LCBhcyB0aGlzIGlzIHRo ZSB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mZmljaWFsbHkgCj4gdW5kZXIgTGFzdCBDYWxsIHRocm91Z2ggT2N0b2JlciAy NiwgdW5sZXNzIHlvdSBhcmUgc3BlY2lmaWNhbGx5IAo+IGNvbW1lbnRpbmcgb24gdGhlIGNvbW1l bnRzLiAgUGVvcGxlIHdobyBhcmUgcnVubmluZyB0aGUgUmVnaXN0cnkgdGV4dCAKPiB0aHJvdWdo IHRoZWlyIHRlc3RpbmcgZW5naW5lcyBtYXkgd2FudCB0byB0ZXN0IGJvdGguCgpJIHRlc3RlZCBi b3RoIGFnYWluc3QKaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwOC8wNS9sdGEvMDIvbHNyLnhzZApib3Ro IGFyZSBmaW5lLgoKRmVsaXgKCj4KPiAtLSAKPiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29s b3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMu b3JnCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRt bAo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3Vh Z2VzICDLhgo+Cj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18KPiBMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdAo+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUKCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 13 23:28:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B3128C1A8; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:28:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CCD28C1A7 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:28:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.445 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.445 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.154, BAYES_05=-1.11, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r8+-fNNksTYV for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35B228C1A8 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m9E6SZOT004532 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:28:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 237b_5430c394_99b9_11dd_9e83_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:28:35 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:40432) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:21:18 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081014151326.0912a620@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:18:47 +0900 To: Felix Sasaki From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <48EF660D.2050409@w3.org> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081010180328.09484248@localhost> <48EF660D.2050409@w3.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hello Felix, At 23:26 08/10/10, Felix Sasaki wrote: >draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17 says in sec. 3.1.3: In that case, please change the subject, and submit issues on different documents in different mails. Thanks. >"Deprecated's field-body contains the date the record was deprecated. In some cases this value is before that of the associated 'Added' field in the registry." > >Although this thread is for the last call of 4645bis, I am wondering about the reason for the statement. "In some cases this value is before that of the associated 'Added' field in the registry.", since the ording of fields in 4645bis is not required. I have to agree this can be improved. From your quoting, it isn't exactly clear, but it seems that you are proposing to add ", since the ording of fields in 4645bis is not required." to this sentence. I would propose to change this to ", since there is no prescribed ording of the fields in a record." I also have to say that "Deprecated's" feels really ugly. What about changing this to: The field-body of a Deprecated field contains the date... Regards, Martin. >I created (yet another) XML version of the registry, see >http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/02/lsr.xml >And a schema for its validation >http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/02/lsr.xsd >Which checks various MUSTS from sec. 3.1 of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17 against the 4645bis draft. I did not find any errors. I also read the text of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17 and did not find any issues. > >Felix > >Martin Duerst $B$5$s$O=q$-$^$7$?(B: >> At 22:15 08/10/03, Doug Ewell wrote: >> >>> I request that the co-chairs declare a Last Call on draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06. >> >> As requested by Doug, I herewith declare a WG Last Call on >> draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt. In my recollection, this is >> the first WG Last Call on this document, and in accordance >> with IETF practice, it will therefore last for 2 weeks. >> The deadline for comments is Sunday, October 26, 24:00 Hawai'ian >> time. >> >> Everybody please read the document and send in comments, >> saying that it is okay as is or telling us what you think >> needs to be changed. Please note that while the document >> is extremely long, the textual parts are rather short, >> and comments only on the textual parts are also very welcome >> (of course, checking the data, either by machine or manually, >> is also very much appreciated). >> >> Regards, Martin. >> >> >> >> #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University >> #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 00:19:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678143A6BF0; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:19:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 003BF3A6BF2 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:19:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.426 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.426 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.943, BAYES_20=-0.74, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 996hXHCjFeLK for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55AF3A6BF0 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m9E7JtBQ028262 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:19:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 0ada_7ff8c556_99c0_11dd_980f_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:19:55 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:54141) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:12:36 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081014161624.09730460@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:17:53 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0033459295==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0033459295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Addison/Mark (Editors!), others, Can I please ask you to come up with some revised wording for this point? If it's indeed the dates themselves that can be inverted, this really should be made clear. Regards, Martin. At 09:22 08/10/11, Doug Ewell wrote: >Felix Sasaki wrote: > >> draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17 says in sec. 3.1.3: >> >> "Deprecated's field-body contains the date the record was deprecated. >> In some cases this value is before that of the associated 'Added' >> field in the registry." >> >> Although this thread is for the last call of 4645bis, I am wondering >> about the reason for the statement. "In some cases this value is >> before that of the associated 'Added' field in the registry.", since >> the ording of fields in 4645bis is not required. > >In this passage, "before" refers to the dates themselves, not the order >of fields within the record. > >An example of this is: > >Type: language >Subtag: in >Description: Indonesian >Added: 2005-10-16 >Preferred-Value: id >Deprecated: 1989-01-01 >Suppress-Script: Latn > >In essence, the record was deprecated before birth. > >-- >Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 >http://www.ewellic.org >http://www1.ietf.or g/html.charters/ltru-charter.html >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages $B%R+(B>_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp --===============0033459295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0033459295==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 00:27:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017C528C10C; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:27:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 911B03A6BFC for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:27:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23SI5L10+Qtn for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.228.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6139D28C10C for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2493A2BBF2; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:28:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uVleGEYjF1r7; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:28:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p1037-ipad404marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.146.129.37]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82B72BC48; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:28:02 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <48F44A00.8050001@w3.org> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:28:00 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081010180328.09484248@localhost> <48EF660D.2050409@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20081014151326.0912a620@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081014151326.0912a620@localhost> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst $B$5$s$O=q$-$^$7$?(B: > Hello Felix, > > At 23:26 08/10/10, Felix Sasaki wrote: > >> draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17 says in sec. 3.1.3: >> > > In that case, please change the subject, and submit issues on > different documents in different mails. Thanks. > You are right, sorry for not doing that in the first place. > > >> "Deprecated's field-body contains the date the record was deprecated. In some cases this value is before that of the associated 'Added' field in the registry." >> >> Although this thread is for the last call of 4645bis, I am wondering about the reason for the statement. "In some cases this value is before that of the associated 'Added' field in the registry.", since the ording of fields in 4645bis is not required. >> > > I have to agree this can be improved. From your quoting, it isn't exactly > clear, but it seems that you are proposing to add ", since the ording of fields in 4645bis is not required." to this sentence. I would propose > to change this to ", since there is no prescribed ording of the fields > in a record." > sounds good to me. > I also have to say that "Deprecated's" feels really ugly. > What about changing this to: > > The field-body of a Deprecated field contains the date... > Also fine by me. Felix > Regards, Martin. > > >> I created (yet another) XML version of the registry, see >> http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/02/lsr.xml >> And a schema for its validation >> http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/02/lsr.xsd >> Which checks various MUSTS from sec. 3.1 of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17 against the 4645bis draft. I did not find any errors. I also read the text of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17 and did not find any issues. >> >> Felix >> >> Martin Duerst $B$5$s$O=q$-$^$7$?(B: >> >>> At 22:15 08/10/03, Doug Ewell wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I request that the co-chairs declare a Last Call on draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06. >>>> >>> As requested by Doug, I herewith declare a WG Last Call on >>> draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt. In my recollection, this is >>> the first WG Last Call on this document, and in accordance >>> with IETF practice, it will therefore last for 2 weeks. >>> The deadline for comments is Sunday, October 26, 24:00 Hawai'ian >>> time. >>> >>> Everybody please read the document and send in comments, >>> saying that it is okay as is or telling us what you think >>> needs to be changed. Please note that while the document >>> is extremely long, the textual parts are rather short, >>> and comments only on the textual parts are also very welcome >>> (of course, checking the data, either by machine or manually, >>> is also very much appreciated). >>> >>> Regards, Martin. >>> >>> >>> >>> #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University >>> #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ltru mailing list >>> Ltru@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >>> >>> >> > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 05:44:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B350828C179; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 05:44:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF223A6BCC for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 05:44:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.913, BAYES_50=0.001, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L0cD7FCl8icm for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 05:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.95]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 767D23A6BB8 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 05:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22114 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2008 12:44:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.95) with ESMTP; 14 Oct 2008 12:44:47 -0000 Message-ID: <17ECFE06ECF7417A89A963F4107D1196@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081014161624.09730460@localhost> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 06:44:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFydGluIER1ZXJzdCA8ZHVlcnN0IGF0IGl0IGRvdCBhb3lhbWEgZG90IGFjIGRvdCBqcD4gd3Jv dGU6Cgo+IENhbiBJIHBsZWFzZSBhc2sgeW91IHRvIGNvbWUgdXAgd2l0aCBzb21lIHJldmlzZWQg d29yZGluZyBmb3IgdGhpcyAKPiBwb2ludD8gSWYgaXQncyBpbmRlZWQgdGhlIGRhdGVzIHRoZW1z ZWx2ZXMgdGhhdCBjYW4gYmUgaW52ZXJ0ZWQsIHRoaXMgCj4gcmVhbGx5IHNob3VsZCBiZSBtYWRl IGNsZWFyLgoKSWYgdGhlIHdvcmQgImJlZm9yZSIgcmVhbGx5IGlzIHVuY2xlYXIgaW4gdGhpcyBj b250ZXh0LCB0aGVuIEpvaG4gCkNvd2FuJ3Mgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiBvZiAiZWFybGllciB0aGFuIiBz aG91bGQgYmUgZmluZS4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNB ICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93 d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5h bHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgogICAgICAq ICBEZXByZWNhdGVkJ3MgZmllbGQtYm9keSBjb250YWlucyB0aGUgZGF0ZSB0aGUgcmVjb3JkIHdh cwogICAgICAgICBkZXByZWNhdGVkLiAgSW4gc29tZSBjYXNlcyB0aGlzIHZhbHVlIGlzIGJlZm9y ZSB0aGF0IG9mIHRoZQogICAgICAgICBhc3NvY2lhdGVkICdBZGRlZCcgZmllbGQgaW4gdGhlIHJl Z2lzdHJ5LgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18K THRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 06:33:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4926928C1C2; 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14 Oct 2008 13:33:07 -0000 Message-ID: <3DEB588266D0463797DB4FF6858073D5@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:33:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFydGluIER1ZXJzdCA8ZHVlcnN0IGF0IGl0IGRvdCBhb3lhbWEgZG90IGFjIGRvdCBqcD4gd3Jv dGU6Cgo+PiBBbHRob3VnaCB0aGlzIHRocmVhZCBpcyBmb3IgdGhlIGxhc3QgY2FsbCBvZiA0NjQ1 YmlzLCBJIGFtIHdvbmRlcmluZyAKPj4gYWJvdXQgdGhlIHJlYXNvbiBmb3IgdGhlIHN0YXRlbWVu dC4gIkluIHNvbWUgY2FzZXMgdGhpcyB2YWx1ZSBpcyAKPj4gYmVmb3JlIHRoYXQgb2YgdGhlIGFz c29jaWF0ZWQgJ0FkZGVkJyBmaWVsZCBpbiB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkuIiwgc2luY2UgCj4+IHRoZSBv cmRpbmcgb2YgZmllbGRzIGluIDQ2NDViaXMgaXMgbm90IHJlcXVpcmVkLgo+Cj4gSSBoYXZlIHRv IGFncmVlIHRoaXMgY2FuIGJlIGltcHJvdmVkLiBGcm9tIHlvdXIgcXVvdGluZywgaXQgaXNuJ3Qg Cj4gZXhhY3RseSBjbGVhciwgYnV0IGl0IHNlZW1zIHRoYXQgeW91IGFyZSBwcm9wb3NpbmcgdG8g YWRkICIsIHNpbmNlIHRoZSAKPiBvcmRpbmcgb2YgZmllbGRzIGluIDQ2NDViaXMgaXMgbm90IHJl cXVpcmVkLiIgdG8gdGhpcyBzZW50ZW5jZS4gSSAKPiB3b3VsZCBwcm9wb3NlIHRvIGNoYW5nZSB0 aGlzIHRvICIsIHNpbmNlIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHByZXNjcmliZWQgb3JkaW5nIAo+IG9mIHRoZSBm aWVsZHMgaW4gYSByZWNvcmQuIgoKKGZvciAib3JkaW5nIiByZWFkICJvcmRlcmluZyIgdGhyb3Vn aG91dCkKCkkgdGhvdWdodCBpdCB3YXMgZmFpcmx5IGNsZWFyIHRoYXQgdGhlIHBhc3NhZ2UgcmVm ZXJyZWQgdG8gdGhlIHRlbXBvcmFsIApyZWxhdGlvbnNoaXAgYmV0d2VlbiB0aGUgQWRkZWQgZGF0 ZSBhbmQgdGhlIERlcHJlY2F0ZWQgZGF0ZSwgYW5kIEZlbGl4J3MgCnJlYWRpbmcgb2YgdGhlIHBh c3NhZ2UgYXMgaGF2aW5nIHRvIGRvIHdpdGggdGhlIG9yZGVyIGluIHdoaWNoIHJlY29yZHMgCmFw cGVhciB3aXRoaW4gYSBmaWVsZCB3YXMgYSBzaW1wbGUgbWlzdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZy4gIEkgZG9u J3Qgc2VlIHRoZSAKbmVlZCB0byBhY3R1YWxseSBkcmFnIHRoZSB0b3BpYyBvZiBmaWVsZCBvcmRl cmluZyBpbnRvIHRoaXMgcGFzc2FnZS4gCkp1c3QgY2hhbmdlICJiZWZvcmUiIHRvICJlYXJsaWVy IHRoYW4sIiBwbGVhc2UuCgo+IEkgYWxzbyBoYXZlIHRvIHNheSB0aGF0ICJEZXByZWNhdGVkJ3Mi IGZlZWxzIHJlYWxseSB1Z2x5LiBXaGF0IGFib3V0IAo+IGNoYW5naW5nIHRoaXMgdG86Cj4KPiBU aGUgZmllbGQtYm9keSBvZiBhIERlcHJlY2F0ZWQgZmllbGQgY29udGFpbnMgdGhlIGRhdGUuLi4K ClRoYXQgd291bGQgYmUgT0ssIGV4Y2VwdCB0aGF0IGFsbCB0aGUgb3RoZXIgYnVsbGV0IHBvaW50 cyBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIAozLjEuMiBvZiB0aGUgZm9ybSAiWCdzIGZpZWxkLWJvZHkuLi4iIG11c3Qg dGhlbiBhbHNvIGJlIGNoYW5nZWQsIHRvIApyZXRhaW4gdGhlIHBhcmFsbGVsIHN0cnVjdHVyZS4K Ci0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAg KiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0 bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGIAoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9y ZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 10:18:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF3A3A693B; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:18:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825B33A693B for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:18:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.928, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C7ctOhsRH9ta for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s6.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s6.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E2E3A6830 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W28 ([65.55.116.74]) by blu0-omc3-s6.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:16:51 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [74.254.68.141] From: CE Whitehead To: , , Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:16:50 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2008 17:16:51.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5B714C0:01C92E20] Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt (editorial comment inverted noun phrase) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1670741913==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1670741913== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_044cc17a-0ab5-49c8-96c0-71c989e7eff9_" --_044cc17a-0ab5-49c8-96c0-71c989e7eff9_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes=2C Addison=2C your version of this is better(but mine is not so bad if= you take out the parenthetical comments). --C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotma= il.com > What about having the definition in English instead? =3B-)-->A nam= e is "inverted" if modifiers in the name have been > moved after the noun a= nd separated by a comma. For > example=2C "Ndebele=2C North" is the invert= ed form of "North > Ndebele".--Addison That is fine with the example b= uilt in! --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com= --_044cc17a-0ab5-49c8-96c0-71c989e7eff9_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
 
Yes=2C Addison=2C your version of this is better
(but m=
ine is not so bad if you take out the parenthetical comments).
&n=
bsp=3B
--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com 
>=3B What about having the defin=
ition in English instead? =3B-)--
>=3BA name is "inverted" if modifier=
s in the name have been
 
>=3B moved after the noun and separated b=
y a comma. For
 
 
>=3B example=2C "Ndebele=2C North" is the inv=
erted form of "North
 
 
>=3B Ndebele".--Addison
 
 
 <=
BR> 
 
That is fine with the example built in!
 
 
 
  
--C. E. Whitehead
 
 
cewcathar@hotmail.com
= --_044cc17a-0ab5-49c8-96c0-71c989e7eff9_-- --===============1670741913== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1670741913==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 10:28:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D853A677E; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:28:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718B93A677E for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:28:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.133 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.133 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.769, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KS2rFMVpeRnP for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s18.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s18.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.93]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8580F3A659A for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W21 ([65.55.116.74]) by blu0-omc3-s18.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:26:12 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [74.254.68.141] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:26:12 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2008 17:26:12.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[F49C9230:01C92E21] Subject: [Ltru] =?windows-1256?q?_Re=3A__WG_Last_Call_for_draft-ietf-ltru-?= =?windows-1256?q?4645bis-06=2Etxt=FE?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1381723099==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1381723099== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_f262ec31-1dd0-47f6-927e-7c14f01b0b0d_" --_f262ec31-1dd0-47f6-927e-7c14f01b0b0d_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Doug, I did not have a problem with "this value is before that of the associated 'Added' field" because you specified that it is the VALUE that is before the VALUE of the associated added field.However, your example is helpful & I think an exampleor else a nice to-the-point explanation, such as you gave (the explanation you gave is the wording I like best here),> In essence, the record was deprecated before birth.would be helpful.Best,C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotmail.com * From: "Doug Ewell" Felix Sasaki wrote:>> draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17 says in sec. 3.1.3:>> "Deprecated's field-body contains the date the record was>> deprecated. >> In some cases this value is before that of the associated 'Added' field >> in the registry.">> Although this thread is for the last call of 4645bis, I am wondering >> about the reason for the statement. "In some cases this value is >> before that of the associated 'Added' field in the registry.", since the >> ording of fields in 4645bis is not required.> In this passage, "before" refers to the dates themselves, not the order> of fields within the record.> An example of this is:> Type: language> Subtag: in> Description: Indonesian> Added: 2005-10-16> Preferred-Value: id> Deprecated: 1989-01-01> Suppress-Script: Latn> In essence, the record was deprecated before birth. --_f262ec31-1dd0-47f6-927e-7c14f01b0b0d_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Doug, I did not have a problem with "this value is before that of the associated 'Added' field" because you specified that it is the VALUE that is before the VALUE of the associated added field.

However, your example is helpful & I think an example
or else a nice to-the-point explanation, such as you gave (the explanation you gave is the wording I like best here),

> In essence, the record was deprecated before birth.

would be helpful.

Best,

C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com


* From: "Doug Ewell" Felix Sasaki wrote:

>> draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17 says in sec. 3.1.3:


>> "Deprecated's field-body contains the date the record was
>> deprecated.
>> In some cases this value is before that of the associated 'Added' field
>> in the registry."

>> Although this thread is for the last call of 4645bis, I am wondering
>> about the reason for t he statement. "In some cases this value is
>> before that of the associated 'Added' field in the registry.", since the
>> ording of fields in 4645bis is not required.

> In this passage, "before" refers to the dates themselves, not the order> of fields within the record.

> An example of this is:

> Type: language
> Subtag: in
> Description: Indonesian
> Added: 2005-10-16
> Preferred-Value: id
> Deprecated: 1989-01-01
> Suppress-Script: Latn

> In essence, the record was deprecated before birth.
--_f262ec31-1dd0-47f6-927e-7c14f01b0b0d_-- --===============1381723099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1381723099==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 10:42:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42023A659A; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:42:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F0D3A659A for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:42:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.496 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.496 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.244, BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mXnM7nHAD1an for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s2.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s2.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.77]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B1C3A63EC for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W37 ([65.55.116.72]) by blu0-omc3-s2.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:42:28 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [74.254.68.141] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:42:28 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2008 17:42:28.0729 (UTC) FILETIME=[3A391690:01C92E24] Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have one main editorial comment on the draft (have not read Doug's update yet): http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06 * * * SECTION 1 "[draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17] expands on [RFC4646] by adding support for approximately 7,500 new primary and extended language subtags based on [ISO639-3] and [ISO639-5] alpha-3 code elements, and seven new region subtags based on [ISO3166-1] exceptionally reserved code elements. This memo describes the process of updating the Registry to include these additional subtags, and to make secondary changes to the Registry that result from adding the new subtags and from other decisions made by the Language Tag Registry Update (LTRU) Working Group." {COMMENT: I would like to add here at the beginning of this -- if possible -- a bit more information on when you follow ISO 639-3 and when you follow ISO 639-5; it appear to me from reading the draft (correct me if I am wrong; I may be) that, where ISO639-3 differs from ISO639-5 , it is ISO639-3 that is the basis of the codes in the registry; however codes in ISO 639-5 not listed in ISO639-3 appear in the registry as they are listed in ISO639-5 } Thanks. --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 10:52:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E047F3A6969; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128563A6969 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.346, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GYEiRf1j9O8C for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFBF3A63EC for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,410,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="62067171" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 14 Oct 2008 17:52:29 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m9EHqSWY004722; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:52:29 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:29 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:51:43 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:25 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt Thread-Index: Ackt+r5/vfxONidcSsaUQtu+1zalpQAKbpvw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F181CDD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081014161624.09730460@localhost> <17ECFE06ECF7417A89A963F4107D1196@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <17ECFE06ECF7417A89A963F4107D1196@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982BF3A63EC for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.622 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.622 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.623, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ty5HZHvM4mSC for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB233A6B41 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:34 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,410,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="142474942" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 14 Oct 2008 17:52:52 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m9EHqoJg031104 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:52:51 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:50 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Duerst , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:52:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt Thread-Index: AcktzVVNbrbC9MslRvy/6aR5II4XSAAWE+/A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F181CDF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081014161624.09730460@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081014161624.09730460@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RG9uZS4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KR2xvYmFsaXphdGlvbiBBcmNoaXRlY3QgLS0gTGFi MTI2DQoNCkludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBhIGZlYXR1cmUuDQpJdCBpcyBhbiBh cmNoaXRlY3R1cmUuDQoNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBs dHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzpsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uDQo+ IEJlaGFsZiBPZiBNYXJ0aW4gRHVlcnN0DQo+IFNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNkYXksIE9jdG9iZXIgMTQsIDIw MDggMTI6MTggQU0NCj4gVG86IERvdWcgRXdlbGw7IExUUlUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cA0KPiBTdWJq ZWN0OiBSZTogW0x0cnVdIFdHIExhc3QgQ2FsbCBmb3IgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LTQ2NDZiaXMt MTcudHh0DQo+IA0KPiBIZWxsbyBBZGRpc29uL01hcmsgKEVkaXRvcnMhKSwgb3RoZXJzLA0KPiAN Cj4gQ2FuIEkgcGxlYXNlIGFzayB5b3UgdG8gY29tZSB1cCB3aXRoIHNvbWUgcmV2aXNlZCB3b3Jk aW5nIGZvcg0KPiB0aGlzIHBvaW50PyBJZiBpdCdzIGluZGVlZCB0aGUgZGF0ZXMgdGhlbXNlbHZl cyB0aGF0IGNhbiBiZQ0KPiBpbnZlcnRlZCwgdGhpcyByZWFsbHkgc2hvdWxkIGJlIG1hZGUgY2xl YXIuDQo+IA0KPiBSZWdhcmRzLCAgICBNYXJ0aW4uDQo+IA0KPiBBdCAwOToyMiAwOC8xMC8xMSwg RG91ZyBFd2VsbCB3cm90ZToNCj4gPkZlbGl4IFNhc2FraSA8ZnNhc2FraSBhdCB3MyBkb3Qgb3Jn PiB3cm90ZTogPiA+PiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtDQo+IDQ2NDZiaXMtMTcgc2F5cyBpbiBzZWMu IDMuMS4zOiA+PiA+PiAiRGVwcmVjYXRlZCdzIGZpZWxkLWJvZHkNCj4gY29udGFpbnMgdGhlIGRh dGUgdGhlIHJlY29yZCB3YXMgZGVwcmVjYXRlZC4gPj4gSW4gc29tZSBjYXNlcyB0aGlzDQo+IHZh bHVlIGlzIGJlZm9yZSB0aGF0IG9mIHRoZSBhc3NvY2lhdGVkICdBZGRlZCcgPj4gZmllbGQgaW4g dGhlDQo+IHJlZ2lzdHJ5LiIgPj4gPj4gQWx0aG91Z2ggdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQgaXMgZm9yIHRoZSBs YXN0IGNhbGwgb2YNCj4gNDY0NWJpcywgSSBhbSB3b25kZXJpbmcgPj4gYWJvdXQgdGhlIHJlYXNv biBmb3IgdGhlIHN0YXRlbWVudC4gIkluDQo+IHNvbWUgY2FzZXMgdGhpcyB2YWx1ZSBpcyA+PiBi ZWZvcmUgdGhhdCBvZiB0aGUgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCAnQWRkZWQnDQo+IGZpZWxkIGluIHRoZSByZWdp c3RyeS4iLCBzaW5jZSA+PiB0aGUgb3JkaW5nIG9mIGZpZWxkcyBpbiA0NjQ1YmlzDQo+IGlzIG5v dCByZXF1aXJlZC4gPiA+SW4gdGhpcyBwYXNzYWdlLCAiYmVmb3JlIiByZWZlcnMgdG8gdGhlIGRh dGVzDQo+IHRoZW1zZWx2ZXMsIG5vdCB0aGUgb3JkZXIgPm9mIGZpZWxkcyB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIHJl Y29yZC4gPiA+QW4NCj4gZXhhbXBsZSBvZiB0aGlzIGlzOiA+ID5UeXBlOiBsYW5ndWFnZSA+U3Vi dGFnOiBpbiA+RGVzY3JpcHRpb246DQo+IEluZG9uZXNpYW4gPkFkZGVkOiAyMDA1LTEwLTE2ID5Q cmVmZXJyZWQtVmFsdWU6IGlkID5EZXByZWNhdGVkOg0KPiAxOTg5LTAxLTAxID5TdXBwcmVzcy1T Y3JpcHQ6IExhdG4gPiA+SW4gZXNzZW5jZSwgdGhlIHJlY29yZCB3YXMNCj4gZGVwcmVjYXRlZCBi ZWZvcmUgYmlydGguID4gPi0tID5Eb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sDQo+ IFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQgPmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcNCj4g Pmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3INCj4gZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1s DQo+ID5odHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1 YWdlcyAg44OS44O7DQo+ID5fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXyA+THRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPkx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcgPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydSA+DQo+IA0KPiANCj4gIy0jLSMgIE1hcnRp biBKLiBEdSJyc3QsIEFzc29jLiBQcm9mZXNzb3IsIEFveWFtYSBHYWt1aW4gVW5pdmVyc2l0eQ0K PiAjLSMtIyAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zdy5pdC5hb3lhbWEuYWMuanANCj4gbWFpbHRvOmR1ZXJzdEBp dC5hb3lhbWEuYWMuanANCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 10:55:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8E83A6C19; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:55:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB123A6C19 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:54:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.883 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.883 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.284, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y2Jhb18QbY8d for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217213A6C0F for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:54:58 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,410,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="142476669" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 14 Oct 2008 17:55:36 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m9EHtYqv001070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:55:36 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:55:33 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Duerst , Felix Sasaki Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:55:32 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt Thread-Index: AcktxjdKCvtcRZZTQdqadX2jIkvwBQAX5Kmw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F181CF1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081010180328.09484248@localhost> <48EF660D.2050409@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20081014151326.0912a620@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081014151326.0912a620@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > I also have to say that "Deprecated's" feels really ugly. > What about changing this to: > > The field-body of a Deprecated field contains the date... > (editor hat ON) I didn't make this change because EVERY field uses the same form. I can change it, but it would be purely editorial. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 13:44:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B443A68C2; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:44:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD01F3A68C2 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.587 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.587 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9XH95M3xk6rZ for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D166B3A6829 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:44:38 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,410,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="122214949" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 14 Oct 2008 20:44:54 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m9EKipep015575 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:44:51 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:44:51 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: CE Whitehead , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:44:49 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only Thread-Index: AckuJGAVvWAh1NHcQwiEiIoG+yh6aAAGBCDQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F1820E4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I think Doug already includes that information when he says: > "[draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17] expands on [RFC4646] by adding > support It is draft-4646bis that has the instructions. This introductory text does not spell out all of the specifics. Nor should it, IMO. And Section 2.2 of this document (4645bis) contains the specifics you appear to be looking for here. Note that ISO 639-3 and ISO 639-5 are disjoint. ISO 639-3 contains *only* individual languages (and macrolanguages). ISO 639-5 contains *only* groups/families. There is or should be no overlap between these two. It is ISO 639-2 that contains some of each set of codes. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of CE Whitehead > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:42 AM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt > -- Editorial Comments Only > > > > I have one main editorial comment on the draft (have not read > Doug's update yet): > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06 > > > * * * > > > > SECTION 1 > > "[draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17] expands on [RFC4646] by adding > support > for approximately 7,500 new primary and extended language subtags > based on [ISO639-3] and [ISO639-5] alpha-3 code elements, and > seven > new region subtags based on [ISO3166-1] exceptionally reserved > code > elements. This memo describes the process of updating the > Registry > to include these additional subtags, and to make secondary > changes to > the Registry that result from adding the new subtags and from > other > decisions made by the Language Tag Registry Update (LTRU) > Working > Group." > > {COMMENT: I would like to add here at the beginning of this -- if > possible -- a bit more information on when you follow ISO 639-3 and > when you follow ISO 639-5; it appear to me from reading the draft > (correct me if I am wrong; I may be) that, where ISO639-3 differs > from ISO639-5 , it is ISO639-3 that is the basis of the codes in > the registry; however codes in ISO 639-5 not listed in ISO639-3 > appear in the registry as they are listed in ISO639-5 } > > Thanks. > > --C. E. Whitehead > cewcathar@hotmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 15:55:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F0353A6C11; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:55:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393693A6C03 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:55:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q3gPyuzP-MuA for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.228.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DF328C1DE for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209512BBEB; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:55:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sjNxt1Dajysj; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:55:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p6170-ipad512marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.148.125.170]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A8E2BBE6; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:55:06 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <48F52347.7020503@w3.org> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:55:04 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081014161624.09730460@localhost> <17ECFE06ECF7417A89A963F4107D1196@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F181CDD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F181CDD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org VGhpcyBzb3VuZHMgZ29vZCB0byBtZS4KCkZlbGl4CgpQaGlsbGlwcywgQWRkaXNvbiDjgZXjgpPj ga/mm7jjgY3jgb7jgZfjgZ86Cj4gKGVkaXRvciBoYXQgT04pCj4KPiBJIGNvbmN1ci4gVG8gbWFr ZSBpdCBhYnVuZGFudGx5IGNsZWFyLCB0aG91Z2gsIEkgYWRkZWQgbW9yZSB0ZXh0LiBUaGUgcGFy YWdyYXBoIG5vdyByZWFkczoKPgo+IDx0PkRlcHJlY2F0ZWQncyBmaWVsZC1ib2R5IGNvbnRhaW5z IHRoZSBkYXRlIHRoZSByZWNvcmQgd2FzIGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQuIEluIHNvbWUgY2FzZXMgdGhpcyB2 YWx1ZSBpcyBlYXJsaWVyIHRoYW4gdGhhdCBvZiB0aGUgJ0FkZGVkJyBmaWVsZCBpbiB0aGUgc2Ft ZSByZWNvcmQuIFRoYXQgaXMsIHRoZSBkYXRlIG9mIGRlcHJlY2F0aW9uIHByZWNlZGVkIHRoZSBh ZGRpdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgcmVjb3JkIHRvIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeS48L3Q+Cj4KPiBBZGRpc29uCj4K PiBBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzCj4gR2xvYmFsaXphdGlvbiBBcmNoaXRlY3QgLS0gTGFiMTI2Cj4K PiBJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJlLgo+IEl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hp dGVjdHVyZS4KPgo+Cj4gICAKPj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0KPj4gRnJvbTog bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbgo+ PiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgRG91ZyBFd2VsbAo+PiBTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBPY3RvYmVyIDE0LCAyMDA4 IDU6NDUgQU0KPj4gVG86IExUUlUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cAo+PiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0x0cnVd IFdHIExhc3QgQ2FsbCBmb3IgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LTQ2NDZiaXMtMTcudHh0Cj4+Cj4+IE1h cnRpbiBEdWVyc3QgPGR1ZXJzdCBhdCBpdCBkb3QgYW95YW1hIGRvdCBhYyBkb3QganA+IHdyb3Rl Ogo+Pgo+PiAgICAgCj4+PiBDYW4gSSBwbGVhc2UgYXNrIHlvdSB0byBjb21lIHVwIHdpdGggc29t ZSByZXZpc2VkIHdvcmRpbmcgZm9yCj4+PiAgICAgICAKPj4gdGhpcwo+PiAgICAgCj4+PiBwb2lu dD8gSWYgaXQncyBpbmRlZWQgdGhlIGRhdGVzIHRoZW1zZWx2ZXMgdGhhdCBjYW4gYmUgaW52ZXJ0 ZWQsCj4+PiAgICAgICAKPj4gdGhpcwo+PiAgICAgCj4+PiByZWFsbHkgc2hvdWxkIGJlIG1hZGUg Y2xlYXIuCj4+PiAgICAgICAKPj4gSWYgdGhlIHdvcmQgImJlZm9yZSIgcmVhbGx5IGlzIHVuY2xl YXIgaW4gdGhpcyBjb250ZXh0LCB0aGVuIEpvaG4KPj4gQ293YW4ncyBzdWdnZXN0aW9uIG9mICJl YXJsaWVyIHRoYW4iIHNob3VsZCBiZSBmaW5lLgo+Pgo+PiAtLQo+PiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBU aG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKPj4gaHR0cDov L3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwo+PiBodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0 cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCj4+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgo+Pgo+PiAgICAgICAqICBEZXByZWNhdGVkJ3MgZmllbGQt Ym9keSBjb250YWlucyB0aGUgZGF0ZSB0aGUgcmVjb3JkIHdhcwo+PiAgICAgICAgICBkZXByZWNh dGVkLiAgSW4gc29tZSBjYXNlcyB0aGlzIHZhbHVlIGlzIGJlZm9yZSB0aGF0IG9mCj4+IHRoZQo+ PiAgICAgICAgICBhc3NvY2lhdGVkICdBZGRlZCcgZmllbGQgaW4gdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5Lgo+Pgo+ PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwo+PiBMdHJ1 IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdAo+PiBMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo+PiAgICAgCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KPiBMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdAo+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcK PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUKPiAgIAoKCl9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9s dHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 14 19:14:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25AC03A6C1E; 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15 Oct 2008 02:15:23 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:15:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Q0UgV2hpdGVoZWFkIDxjZXdjYXRoYXIgYXQgaG90bWFpbCBkb3QgY29tPiB3cm90ZToKCj4ge0NP TU1FTlQ6ICBJIHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gYWRkIGhlcmUgYXQgdGhlIGJlZ2lubmluZyBvZiB0aGlz IC0tIGlmIAo+IHBvc3NpYmxlIC0tIGEgYml0IG1vcmUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gb24gd2hlbiB5b3Ug Zm9sbG93IElTTyA2MzktMyBhbmQgCj4gd2hlbiB5b3UgZm9sbG93IElTTyA2MzktNTsgIGl0IGFw cGVhciB0byBtZSBmcm9tIHJlYWRpbmcgdGhlIGRyYWZ0IAo+IChjb3JyZWN0IG1lIGlmIEkgYW0g d3Jvbmc7IEkgbWF5IGJlKSB0aGF0LCB3aGVyZSBJU082MzktMyBkaWZmZXJzIGZyb20gCj4gSVNP NjM5LTUgLCBpdCBpcyBJU082MzktMyB0aGF0IGlzIHRoZSBiYXNpcyBvZiB0aGUgY29kZXMgaW4g dGhlIAo+IHJlZ2lzdHJ5OyBob3dldmVyIGNvZGVzIGluIElTTyA2MzktNSBub3QgbGlzdGVkIGlu IElTTzYzOS0zIGFwcGVhciBpbiAKPiB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkgYXMgdGhleSBhcmUgbGlzdGVkIGlu IElTTzYzOS01ICB9CgpJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBvbmx5IGNvZGUgZWxlbWVudCBkZWZpbmVkIGluIGJv dGggNjM5LTMgYW5kIDYzOS01IGlzICdjYXInLCAKd2hpY2ggNjM5LTUgZGVmaW5lZCBhcyBhIGNv bGxlY3RpdmUgY2FsbGVkICJDYXJpYiBsYW5ndWFnZXMiIGV2ZW4gdGhvdWdoIAo2MzktMiBhbmQg NjM5LTMgYWxyZWFkeSBoYWQgaXQgYXMgYW4gaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBjYWxsZWQgIkdhbGliaSBDYXJp Yi4iIApUaGUgcmVnaXN0cmFycyBmb3IgNjM5LTIgYW5kIDYzOS0zIChSZWJlY2NhIGFuZCBKb2Fu IHJlc3BlY3RpdmVseSkgCmNsYXJpZmllZCBiYWNrIGluIEF1Z3VzdCB0aGF0IHRoZSAiaW5kaXZp ZHVhbCIgaW50ZXJwcmV0YXRpb24gaXMgdGhlIApjb3JyZWN0IG9uZSwgYW5kIGRyYWZ0LTQ2NDVi aXMtMDYgbWFrZXMgbm90ZSBvZiB0aGF0IGluIFNlY3Rpb24gMi4zLCAKc2l4dGggcGFyYWdyYXBo LgoKVGhlcmUgc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSBhbnkgb3RoZXIgY29kZSBlbGVtZW50cyBzaGFyZWQgYmV0 d2VlbiA2MzktMyBhbmQgCjYzOS01LgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9y YWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcK aHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRw Oi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YK Cl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 15 03:20:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E983A691A; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:20:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B3E3A691A for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:20:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.591 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.591 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id axSOndQM-+jD for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D143A68B1 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m9FAKia3004779 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:20:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 1859_ed0b93e8_9aa2_11dd_9cd0_0014221f2a2d; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:20:44 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:50054) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:13:27 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081015133659.096c5f48@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:39:03 +0900 To: "Phillips, Addison" , Felix Sasaki From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F181CF1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.a mazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081010180328.09484248@localhost> <48EF660D.2050409@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20081014151326.0912a620@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F181CF1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 02:55 08/10/15, Phillips, Addison wrote: >> >> I also have to say that "Deprecated's" feels really ugly. >> What about changing this to: >> >> The field-body of a Deprecated field contains the date... >> > >(editor hat ON) > >I didn't make this change because EVERY field uses the same form. > >I can change it, but it would be purely editorial. I strongly suggest that you do that, for every field. The main reason is that this is something that the RFC editor will probably pick up, and it's easier for us to fix it now than to fix what they might mess up (in German, there is the verb "verschlimmbessern", meaning trying to make it better but making it worse; that would apply here, but I don't know the English equivalent). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 15 05:52:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 745113A6C46; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 05:52:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5376C3A6C6E for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 05:52:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.237 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.237 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.510, BAYES_20=-0.74, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LCzf0c+WQ893 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 05:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 868893A6C46 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 05:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29394 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2008 12:53:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.31) with ESMTP; 15 Oct 2008 12:53:22 -0000 Message-ID: <83B17971B98E4BBEBD8EEC045401A351@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 06:53:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:26:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0AFF3A696B for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:26:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.125, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DqLcIGvLkIu4 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s20.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s20.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.95]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 835E03A6963 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W8 ([65.55.116.74]) by blu0-omc3-s20.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:26:20 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [74.254.68.141] From: CE Whitehead To: "Phillips, Addison" , , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:26:20 -0400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F1820E4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F1820E4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Oct 2008 14:26:20.0978 (UTC) FILETIME=[FE828920:01C92ED1] Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thanks for your response, Addison! However, it is section 2.3 of the draft, "Modified Language Subtags," par. 3, that I was referring to: ". . . Language subtags corresponding to code elements that were identified in [ISO639-3] as representing collection codes, but not listed in [ISO639-5], were also assigned a Scope value of "collection". I thought a note to this effect might be added to Section I, par. 2, to the end of the text below: "[draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17] expands on [RFC4646] by adding support for approximately 7,500 new primary and extended language subtags based on [ISO639-3] and [ISO639-5] alpha-3 code elements, and seven new region subtags based on [ISO3166-1] exceptionally reserved code elements. " If no one else agrees, I'll drop it, but I do think we could have this section a tiny bit more specific. Thanks. Otherwise, the draft reads fine. Sincerely, C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com > From: addison@amazon.com > To: cewcathar@hotmail.com; ltru@ietf.org > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:44:49 -0700 > Subject: RE: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only > > Hi, > > I think Doug already includes that information when he says: > >> "[draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17] expands on [RFC4646] by adding >> support > > It is draft-4646bis that has the instructions. This introductory text does not spell out all of the specifics. Nor should it, IMO. And Section 2.2 of this document (4645bis) contains the specifics you appear to be looking for here. > > Note that ISO 639-3 and ISO 639-5 are disjoint. ISO 639-3 contains *only* individual languages (and macrolanguages). ISO 639-5 contains *only* groups/families. There is or should be no overlap between these two. It is ISO 639-2 that contains some of each set of codes. > > Addison That explanation makes some sense. However, it was section 2.3 of the draft, "Modified Language Subtags," par. 3, that I was referring to: ". . . Language subtags corresponding to code elements that were identified in [ISO639-3] as representing collection codes, but not listed in [ISO639-5], were also assigned a Scope value of "collection". " > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of CE Whitehead >> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:42 AM >> To: ltru@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt >> -- Editorial Comments Only >> >> >> >> I have one main editorial comment on the draft (have not read >> Doug's update yet): >> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06 >> >> >> * * * >> >> >> >> SECTION 1 >> >> "[draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17] expands on [RFC4646] by adding >> support >> for approximately 7,500 new primary and extended language subtags >> based on [ISO639-3] and [ISO639-5] alpha-3 code elements, and >> seven >> new region subtags based on [ISO3166-1] exceptionally reserved >> code >> elements. This memo describes the process of updating the >> Registry >> to include these additional subtags, and to make secondary >> changes to >> the Registry that result from adding the new subtags and from >> other >> decisions made by the Language Tag Registry Update (LTRU) >> Working >> Group." >> >> {COMMENT: I would like to add here at the beginning of this -- if >> possible -- a bit more information on when you follow ISO 639-3 and >> when you follow ISO 639-5; it appear to me from reading the draft >> (correct me if I am wrong; I may be) that, where ISO639-3 differs >> from ISO639-5 , it is ISO639-3 that is the basis of the codes in >> the registry; however codes in ISO 639-5 not listed in ISO639-3 >> appear in the registry as they are listed in ISO639-5 } >> >> Thanks. >> >> --C. E. Whitehead >> cewcathar@hotmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 15 17:40:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205AB3A6861; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E593A6861 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:40:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.124 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.124 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.474, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mUR239isgqt5 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth19.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth19.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 40EA03A67FD for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15295 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2008 00:41:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth19.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.30) with ESMTP; 16 Oct 2008 00:41:53 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F1820E4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:41:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:33:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2a42_e0d61aca_9b2a_11dd_8304_0014221fa3c9; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:33:55 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:56009) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:26:37 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081016101126.0977dc70@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:13:13 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <83B17971B98E4BBEBD8EEC045401A351@DGBP7M81> References: <83B17971B98E4BBEBD8EEC045401A351@DGBP7M81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 21:53 08/10/15, Doug Ewell wrote: >Martin Duerst wrote: > >>>> I also have to say that "Deprecated's" feels really ugly. >>> >>> I can change it, but it would be purely editorial. >> >> I strongly suggest that you do that, for every field. >> The main reason is that this is something that the RFC >> editor will probably pick up, > >They didn't pick it up in RFC 4646. Thanks for the datapoint. I wouldn't bet on the RFC editor's consistency, but I'll leave the decision to the editors then. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 15 23:29:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E7E3A6B45; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:29:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D733A698D for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:29:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JlRiqfSDyBAL for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.228.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4E83A6873 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 534612BBF6 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:30:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rM+RDEZgXxI0 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:30:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (dhcp-247-68.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.247.68]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 298222BBEF for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:30:06 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <48F6DF67.8030401@w3.org> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:29:59 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi all, I am working on an XML version of the registry http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/02/lsr.xml with the purpose of making it maller in terms of file size. See the XML Schema at http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/02/lsr.xsd for the structure description. One part of this approach is to represent as many fields as possible as attribute values. My question is whether the only fields which may appear more than once (and hence must be represented as elements) are "description" and "prefix". Thank you, Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 15 23:40:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 859D23A698D; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:40:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADEA3A68FE for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:40:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.264 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.264 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vei-oCwPFllq for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B233A698D for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 556DF1C0169; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:40:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5029B1C0161; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:40:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48319A1D95B; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:40:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:40:58 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Felix Sasaki Message-ID: <20081016064058.GA11349@nic.fr> References: <48F6DF67.8030401@w3.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48F6DF67.8030401@w3.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 03:29:59PM +0900, Felix Sasaki wrote a message of 20 lines which said: > I am working on an XML version of the registry That will be the third one and still no YAML or JSON version :-) > with the purpose of making it maller in terms of file size. I would prefer gzip (or a different and more compact format, like the two mentioned above). > My question is whether the only fields which may appear more than > once (and hence must be represented as elements) are "description" > and "prefix". No, there is Comments, too. 3.1.2: > Field-names MUST occur no more than once per record, with the > exception of the 'Description', 'Comments', and sometimes the > 'Prefix' field. Also, it seems to contradict the spirit of 3.1.2: > Future versions of this document might add additional fields to > the registry; implementations SHOULD ignore fields found in the > registry that are not defined in this document. While it is not explicit, it may indicate that a "once only" field could become a "several occurrences" field later. field MUST appear only once. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 16 06:01:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76D4A3A682F; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBBB3A682F for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:01:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.074 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.074 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.754, BAYES_40=-0.185, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0xQUeee6YwNt for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.99]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 950153A6828 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3951 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2008 13:02:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.99) with ESMTP; 16 Oct 2008 13:02:17 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:02:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org U3RlcGhhbmUgQm9ydHptZXllciA8Ym9ydHptZXllciBhdCBuaWMgZG90IGZyPiB3cm90ZToKCj4+ ICAgRnV0dXJlIHZlcnNpb25zIG9mIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgbWlnaHQgYWRkIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwg ZmllbGRzIHRvCj4+ICAgdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5OyBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgU0hPVUxEIGlnbm9y ZSBmaWVsZHMgZm91bmQgaW4gdGhlCj4+ICAgcmVnaXN0cnkgdGhhdCBhcmUgbm90IGRlZmluZWQg aW4gdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudC4KPgo+IFdoaWxlIGl0IGlzIG5vdCBleHBsaWNpdCwgaXQgbWF5IGlu ZGljYXRlIHRoYXQgYSAib25jZSBvbmx5IiBmaWVsZAo+IGNvdWxkIGJlY29tZSBhICJzZXZlcmFs IG9jY3VycmVuY2VzIiBmaWVsZCBsYXRlci4KClRlY2huaWNhbGx5IHRydWUsIGJ1dCBpbiBtb3N0 IG9mIHRoZSAib25jZSBvbmx5IiBjYXNlcywgaXQgd291bGQgbWFrZSBubyAKbG9naWNhbCBzZW5z ZSB0byBoYXZlIHNldmVyYWwgb2NjdXJyZW5jZXMuICBBIHNpbmdsZSBzdWJ0YWcgKG9yIHRhZykg CmNvdWxkIG5vdCBwb3NzaWJseSBoYXZlIG1vcmUgdGhhbiBvbmUgVHlwZSwgU3VidGFnIG9yIFRh ZyB2YWx1ZSwgClByZWZlcnJlZC1WYWx1ZSwgU3VwcHJlc3MtU2NyaXB0LCBvciBTY29wZS4gIFRo YXQgd291bGQgYmUgbGlrZSBzYXlpbmcgYSAKcGVyc29uIGNhbiBoYXZlIHR3byBkaWZmZXJlbnQg aGVpZ2h0cy4KCkluIDQ2NDZiaXMgd2UgYXJlIGNoYW5naW5nIG91ciBwcmV2aW91cyBydWxlIGFi b3V0IHRoZSBwZXJtYW5lbmNlIG9mIApkZXByZWNhdGlvbiwgc28gdGhhdCBpdCB3aWxsIGJlY29t ZSBwb3NzaWJsZSB0byByZS1hZGQgKGFuZCBwcmVzdW1hYmx5IApyZS1kZXByZWNhdGUpIGEgc3Vi dGFnIHRoYXQgd2FzIG9uY2UgZGVwcmVjYXRlZC4gIEhvd2V2ZXIsIHNpbmNlIHdlIG5vIApsb25n ZXIgaGF2ZSB0aGUgZ29hbCBvZiBiZWluZyBhYmxlIHRvIHRyYWNlIGJhY2sgdGhyb3VnaCB0aGUg ZGF0ZXMgaW4gCnRoZSBSZWdpc3RyeSB0byBzZWUgd2hlbiBhIHRhZyBiZWNhbWUgdmFsaWQsIGl0 IHdvdWxkIG5vIGxvbmdlciBtYWtlIGFueSAKc2Vuc2UgdG8ga2VlcCBtdWx0aXBsZSBBZGRlZCBv ciBEZXByZWNhdGVkIGZpZWxkcyBpbiBzdWNoIGEgcmVjb3JkLgoKQXMgZm9yIE1hY3JvbGFuZ3Vh Z2UsIHRoaXMgZmllbGQgaXMgd2hvbGx5IGRldGVybWluZWQgYnkgSVNPIDYzOS0zLCBzbyAKaXQg d291bGQgYWx3YXlzIGJlIHBvc3NpYmxlIGluIHRoZW9yeSBmb3IgdGhhdCBSQSB0byBjaGFuZ2Ug dGhlaXIgcnVsZXMgCmFuZCBhc3NpZ24gYW4gaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBsYW5ndWFnZSB0byB0d28gb3Ig bW9yZSBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlcy4gClNvbWVvbmUgd291bGQgaGF2ZSB0byBtYWtlIHRoZSBjYXNl IHRoYXQgTGFuZ3VhZ2UgQSBpcyBub3Qgb25seSAqZGVyaXZlZCAKZnJvbSogdHdvIG9yIG1vcmUg bGFuZ3VhZ2VzIG9yIGZhbWlsaWVzLCB3aGljaCBpcyBub3QgY29tcGxldGVseSBhYnN1cmQgCih0 aGluayBMYWRpbm8pLCBidXQgdGhhdCBpdCBpcyBhY3R1YWxseSAqaWRlbnRpZmllZCBhcyogYm90 aCBMYW5ndWFnZSBCIAphbmQgTGFuZ3VhZ2UgQyBpbiBzb21lIGNvbnRleHRzLCB3aGljaCBzdGls bCByZXRhaW5pbmcgaXRzIG93biBpZGVudGl0eSAKaW4gb3RoZXJzLiAgVGhhdCBzZWVtcyBmYXIt ZmV0Y2hlZCwgYW5kIHNvIHRoZSByZXN0cmljdGlvbiBhZ2FpbnN0IAptdWx0aXBsZSBNYWNyb2xh bmd1YWdlIGZpZWxkcyBpbiB0aGUgUmVnaXN0cnkgc2VlbXMgc2FmZS4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwg ICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRw Oi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRy dS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v aWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 16 06:17:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6691B3A6C3C; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:17:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 057A63A6C3C for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:17:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q53iWvVtkg1V for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.228.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAAF43A6990 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 873B42BBF6; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:17:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eyGBPgmhZIeD; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:17:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p3009-ipad66marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [219.114.36.9]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5678B2BBE6; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:17:53 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <48F73EFD.4050904@w3.org> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:17:49 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer References: <48F6DF67.8030401@w3.org> <20081016064058.GA11349@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20081016064058.GA11349@nic.fr> Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org U3RlcGhhbmUgQm9ydHptZXllciDjgZXjgpPjga/mm7jjgY3jgb7jgZfjgZ86Cj4gT24gVGh1LCBP Y3QgMTYsIDIwMDggYXQgMDM6Mjk6NTlQTSArMDkwMCwKPiAgRmVsaXggU2FzYWtpIDxmc2FzYWtp QHczLm9yZz4gd3JvdGUgCj4gIGEgbWVzc2FnZSBvZiAyMCBsaW5lcyB3aGljaCBzYWlkOgo+Cj4g ICAKPj4gSSBhbSB3b3JraW5nIG9uIGFuIFhNTCB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeQo+PiAg ICAgCj4KPiBUaGF0IHdpbGwgYmUgdGhlIHRoaXJkIG9uZSA8aHR0cDovL3d3dy5sYW5ndGFnLm5l dC9yZWdpc3RyaWVzLmh0bWw+IAo+IGFuZCBzdGlsbCBubyBZQU1MIG9yIEpTT04gdmVyc2lvbiA6 LSkKPiAgIAoKWWVzLCBJIGtub3cuIFNvIEkgd29uJ3QgZXZlbiB0cnkgdG8gYWR2ZXJ0aXNlIHRo aXMgbmV3IHZlcnNpb24gOikKCj4gICAKPj4gd2l0aCB0aGUgcHVycG9zZSBvZiBtYWtpbmcgaXQg bWFsbGVyIGluIHRlcm1zIG9mIGZpbGUgc2l6ZS4KPj4gICAgIAo+Cj4gSSB3b3VsZCBwcmVmZXIg Z3ppcCAob3IgYSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgYW5kIG1vcmUgY29tcGFjdCBmb3JtYXQsIGxpa2UgdGhlCj4g dHdvIG1lbnRpb25lZCBhYm92ZSkuCj4KPiAgIAo+PiBNeSBxdWVzdGlvbiBpcyB3aGV0aGVyIHRo ZSBvbmx5IGZpZWxkcyB3aGljaCBtYXkgYXBwZWFyIG1vcmUgdGhhbgo+PiBvbmNlIChhbmQgaGVu Y2UgbXVzdCBiZSByZXByZXNlbnRlZCBhcyBlbGVtZW50cykgYXJlICJkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiIKPj4g YW5kICJwcmVmaXgiLgo+PiAgICAgCj4KPiBObywgdGhlcmUgaXMgQ29tbWVudHMsIHRvby4gMy4x LjI6Cj4KPiAgIAo+PiAgIEZpZWxkLW5hbWVzIE1VU1Qgb2NjdXIgbm8gbW9yZSB0aGFuIG9uY2Ug cGVyIHJlY29yZCwgd2l0aCB0aGUKPj4gICBleGNlcHRpb24gb2YgdGhlICdEZXNjcmlwdGlvbics ICdDb21tZW50cycsIGFuZCBzb21ldGltZXMgdGhlCj4+ICAgJ1ByZWZpeCcgZmllbGQuCj4+ICAg ICAKCnRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHBvaW50ZXIuIC9tZSBsb29raW5nIGF0IHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeSBk aWQgbm90IGZpbmQgYW4gCmV4YW1wbGUgb2YgYW4gZW50cnkgd2l0aCBzZXZlcmFsIGNvbW1lbnRz LCB0aG91Z2guCgo+Cj4gQWxzbywgaXQgc2VlbXMgdG8gY29udHJhZGljdCB0aGUgc3Bpcml0IG9m IDMuMS4yOgo+Cj4gICAKPj4gICBGdXR1cmUgdmVyc2lvbnMgb2YgdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBtaWdo dCBhZGQgYWRkaXRpb25hbCBmaWVsZHMgdG8KPj4gICB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnk7IGltcGxlbWVudGF0 aW9ucyBTSE9VTEQgaWdub3JlIGZpZWxkcyBmb3VuZCBpbiB0aGUKPj4gICByZWdpc3RyeSB0aGF0 IGFyZSBub3QgZGVmaW5lZCBpbiB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50Lgo+PiAgICAgCj4KPiBXaGlsZSBpdCBp cyBub3QgZXhwbGljaXQsIGl0IG1heSBpbmRpY2F0ZSB0aGF0IGEgIm9uY2Ugb25seSIgZmllbGQK PiBjb3VsZCBiZWNvbWUgYSAic2V2ZXJhbCBvY2N1cnJlbmNlcyIgZmllbGQgbGF0ZXIuCj4gICAK CkkgaGFkIGZpcnN0IGEgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiB0aGlzIFhNTCByZWdpc3RyeSB3aXRoIGFsbCBmaWVs ZHMgYXMgZWxlbWVudHMuIApUaGUgdmVyc2lvbiBJIGhhdmUgbm93IHdpdGggbW9zdCBvZiB0aGUg ZmllbGRzIGlzIDEvMiBzaXplIC0gYXJvdW5kIDdLIApmb3IgdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IHVwZGF0ZS4g U28gdXNpbmcgKG9mIGNvdXJzZSBub24tcmVwZWF0YWJsZSkgYXR0cmlidXRlcyAKaGFzIGEgc2ln bmlmaWNhbnQgYmVuZWZpdC4KCkZlbGl4CgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8v d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 16 07:35:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C8E3A68C0; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:35:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 517413A682F for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:35:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.867 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.867 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.268, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7A7QFM3JSjLz for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586DD3A680F for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:35:34 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,423,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="143697211" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Oct 2008 14:36:26 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m9GEaP1m024795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:36:26 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:36:25 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Felix Sasaki Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:36:24 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields Thread-Index: AckvWipun7yuGUltT52X3D0z5o6QVAAQKJrA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F25AF65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <48F6DF67.8030401@w3.org> <20081016064058.GA11349@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20081016064058.GA11349@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > Also, it seems to contradict the spirit of 3.1.2: > > > Future versions of this document might add additional fields to > > the registry; implementations SHOULD ignore fields found in the > > registry that are not defined in this document. > > While it is not explicit, it may indicate that a "once only" field > could become a "several occurrences" field later. > I disagree. I think that the fields which are currently "once only" cannot logically change later, with one possible exception, and that such a change is not implied by the quoted text in 3.1.2. That text deals with (for example) the case we have transitioning from 4646 to this document, with the addition of Scope and Macrolanguage to the registry. We might add more key values in the future, but I would be rather surprised to see changes to the existing keys and their definitions. In particular, 3.1.2 is a kind of promise to implementations that, while additional "gunk" might be *added* in the future, breaking changes will be contemplated with utmost caution. - Type By definition, a subtag can only have one type. - Subtag, Tag By definition, a record can only have one tag or subtag in it. - Scope By definition, this is an enumerated, mutually-exclusive set. - Macrolanguage By definition, a language cannot be encompassed by more than one language in ISO 639-3. - Deprecated, Added A subtag can only be added or deprecated once. - Suppress-Script By definition, there can be only one script that a language is written in "predominantly". - Preferred-Value This one is troublesome. There are some values that might be deprecated in favor of more than one item (notably countries splitting into multiple countries, with no country maintaining the original identity---think YU or SU). Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 16 12:27:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB5D3A6917; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:27:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71633A6917 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:27:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.657 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.657 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DOL9zQt6u7s5 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3597C3A6452 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KqYW5-0007Ji-N3; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:28:13 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:28:13 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20081016192813.GL29458@mercury.ccil.org> References: <48F6DF67.8030401@w3.org> <20081016064058.GA11349@nic.fr> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F25AF65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F25AF65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > - Macrolanguage > > By definition, a language cannot be encompassed by more than one > language in ISO 639-3. Is that really 100% clear from the text of 693-3? -- Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 16 14:31:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BFA3A681D; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:31:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30063A681D for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:31:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gyVyp7p6xCsP for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7F13A67B6 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:32:33 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:32:32 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:32:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields Thread-Index: AckvxWf3Nco6YmDpQKiwTRx2IKiHgQAEAt3A Message-ID: References: <48F6DF67.8030401@w3.org> <20081016064058.GA11349@nic.fr> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F25AF65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20081016192813.GL29458@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081016192813.GL29458@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Interesting point. The standard, indeed, doesn't impose any such restriction. There are a couple of theoretical possibilities here: 1) C is macrolanguage-encompassed by B, C is macrolanguage-encompassed by A, and B is macrolanguage-encompassed by A 2) C is macrolanguage-encompassed by B, C is macrolanguage-encompassed by A, but B is not macrolanguage-encompassed by A and A is not macrolanguage-encompassed by B It seems that in case 1, it shouldn't be necessary to declare 'A is macrolanguage of' as a property of C as long as the other two are declared: the encompassment is necessarily transitive (A must encompass C) -- even though that transitivity isn't explicitly stated, I don't see any other reasonable interpretation. As for 2, I'd hope the JAC would never create such a situation in the data. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Cowan Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 12:28 PM To: Phillips, Addison Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields Phillips, Addison scripsit: > - Macrolanguage > > By definition, a language cannot be encompassed by more than one > language in ISO 639-3. Is that really 100% clear from the text of 693-3? -- Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 16 14:37:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE723A684F; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:37:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DFF3A684F for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:37:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.653 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.653 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hjkzqR9iZRGM for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410CA3A67B6 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KqaYG-00053K-8z; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:38:36 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:38:36 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20081016213836.GO29458@mercury.ccil.org> References: <48F6DF67.8030401@w3.org> <20081016064058.GA11349@nic.fr> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F25AF65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20081016192813.GL29458@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > There are a couple of theoretical possibilities here: > > 1) C is macrolanguage-encompassed by B, C is macrolanguage-encompassed > by A, and B is macrolanguage-encompassed by A A and B are nested macrolanguages here. I agree that this isn't special: Chinese is a macrolanguage, and Min Chinese might be a nested macrolanguage covering the four individual languages of Northern, Southern, Eastern, and Western Min. > 2) C is macrolanguage-encompassed by B, C is macrolanguage-encompassed > by A, but B is not macrolanguage-encompassed by A and A is not > macrolanguage-encompassed by B A and B are overlapping macrolanguages here. This doesn't seem too preposterous to me; for example, A might encompass English-based creoles, whereas B might encompass Atlantic creoles. So I think we ought to allow for the possibility of more than one "Macrolanguage" header. Things get really evil with: 3) C is encompassed by B, B is encompassed by A, and A is encompassed by C. We really, really don't want to go there. -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org All "isms" should be "wasms". --Abbie _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 16 17:15:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0AB3A69CD; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:15:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D50B3A698C for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:15:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XKLrBfP-vZgz for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.228.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73FD23A698E for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8D02BC0B; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:16:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5-NCk9Mueg1D; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:16:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p1075-ipad404marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.146.129.75]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4357F2BBF1; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:16:53 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <48F7D970.5050101@w3.org> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:16:48 +0900 From: Felix Sasaki User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan References: <48F6DF67.8030401@w3.org> <20081016064058.GA11349@nic.fr> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F25AF65@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20081016192813.GL29458@mercury.ccil.org> <20081016213836.GO29458@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081016213836.GO29458@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confirmation question about registry fields X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sm9obiBDb3dhbiDjgZXjgpPjga/mm7jjgY3jgb7jgZfjgZ86Cj4gUGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIHNj cmlwc2l0Ogo+Cj4gICAKPj4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIGEgY291cGxlIG9mIHRoZW9yZXRpY2FsIHBvc3Np YmlsaXRpZXMgaGVyZToKPj4KPj4gMSkgQyBpcyBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlLWVuY29tcGFzc2VkIGJ5 IEIsIEMgaXMgbWFjcm9sYW5ndWFnZS1lbmNvbXBhc3NlZAo+PiBieSBBLCBhbmQgQiBpcyBtYWNy b2xhbmd1YWdlLWVuY29tcGFzc2VkIGJ5IEEKPj4gICAgIAo+Cj4gQSBhbmQgQiBhcmUgbmVzdGVk IG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIGhlcmUuICBJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBpc24ndCBzcGVjaWFsOgo+ IENoaW5lc2UgaXMgYSBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlLCBhbmQgTWluIENoaW5lc2UgbWlnaHQgYmUgYSBu ZXN0ZWQKPiBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdlIGNvdmVyaW5nIHRoZSBmb3VyIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgbGFuZ3Vh Z2VzIG9mIE5vcnRoZXJuLAo+IFNvdXRoZXJuLCBFYXN0ZXJuLCBhbmQgV2VzdGVybiBNaW4uCj4K PiAgIAo+PiAyKSBDIGlzIG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UtZW5jb21wYXNzZWQgYnkgQiwgQyBpcyBtYWNy b2xhbmd1YWdlLWVuY29tcGFzc2VkCj4+IGJ5IEEsIGJ1dCBCIGlzIG5vdCBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdl LWVuY29tcGFzc2VkIGJ5IEEgYW5kIEEgaXMgbm90Cj4+IG1hY3JvbGFuZ3VhZ2UtZW5jb21wYXNz ZWQgYnkgQgo+PiAgICAgCj4KPiBBIGFuZCBCIGFyZSBvdmVybGFwcGluZyBtYWNyb2xhbmd1YWdl cyBoZXJlLiAgVGhpcyBkb2Vzbid0IHNlZW0gdG9vCj4gcHJlcG9zdGVyb3VzIHRvIG1lOyBmb3Ig ZXhhbXBsZSwgQSBtaWdodCBlbmNvbXBhc3MgRW5nbGlzaC1iYXNlZCBjcmVvbGVzLAo+IHdoZXJl YXMgQiBtaWdodCBlbmNvbXBhc3MgQXRsYW50aWMgY3Jlb2xlcy4KPgo+IFNvIEkgdGhpbmsgd2Ug b3VnaHQgdG8gYWxsb3cgZm9yIHRoZSBwb3NzaWJpbGl0eSBvZiBtb3JlIHRoYW4gb25lICJNYWNy b2xhbmd1YWdlIgo+IGhlYWRlci4KPiAgIAoKSSBjaGFuZ2VkIHRoYXQgaW4gbXkgcmVnaXN0cnkg dmVyc2lvbiwgZS5nLiBmcm9tCjxsdGE6ZXh0IHR5PSJleHRsYW5nIiBzdT0ieXVlIiBhZD0iMjAy OS0wOS0wOSIgcHI9Inl1ZSIgCiptYT0iemgiKj48bHRhOmRzPll1ZSBDaGluZXNlCjwvbHRhOmRz PjxsdGE6cHJlZj56aDwvbHRhOnByZWY+PC9sdGE6ZXh0Pgp0bwo8bHRhOmV4dCB0eT0iZXh0bGFu ZyIgc3U9Inl1ZSIgYWQ9IjIwMjktMDktMDkiIApwcj0ieXVlIj4qPGx0YTptYT56aDwvbHRhOm1h Pio8bHRhOmRzPll1ZSBDaGluZXNlCjwvbHRhOmRzPjxsdGE6cHJlZj56aDwvbHRhOnByZWY+PC9s dGE6ZXh0PgpUaGUgZmlsZSBnZXRzIDhLQiBsYXJnZXIuCgpGZWxpeAoKPiBUaGluZ3MgZ2V0IHJl YWxseSBldmlsIHdpdGg6Cj4KPiAzKSBDIGlzIGVuY29tcGFzc2VkIGJ5IEIsIEIgaXMgZW5jb21w YXNzZWQgYnkgQSwgYW5kIEEgaXMgZW5jb21wYXNzZWQgYnkgQy4KPgo+IFdlIHJlYWxseSwgcmVh bGx5IGRvbid0IHdhbnQgdG8gZ28gdGhlcmUuCj4KPiAgIAoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5v cmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 17 03:42:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4BFB3A682C; 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Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:14:33 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9SN-7GZpmwry; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:14:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B96979401E; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:14:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.51]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:14:33 +0200 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:14:33 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD0819@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: RFC 4646 bis; IANA's Register; Languages, langage and langue Thread-Index: Ackvwd464pKiHpPcR/aDqH/sK3Kw/AAbAVcQ References: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: , "Doug Ewell" , "CE Whitehead" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2008 10:14:33.0558 (UTC) FILETIME=[269CAF60:01C93041] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 03:42:56 -0700 Cc: paul.twomey@icann.org, Suzanne Sene , Harald@alvestrand.no, John C Klensin , roberto@icann.org, Vint Cerf , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= Subject: [Ltru] RFC 4646 bis; IANA's Register; Languages, langage and langue X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Doug, 1-I agree very much with CE Withehead's proposition, that gives some inform= ation people will find most useful. -(i) The proper reason of my first message to you and some others was the f= act that the transition for IANA's registry resulting from the insertion of= all ISO 639-3 (and also ISO 639-5) entries inside this Register would incr= ease the number of concerned "language names" from around 500 to around 800= 0. And this is not only a technical question, this is in fact a real change= of the nature of the Register. -(ii) As is also the fact to recognize "families or groups of language name= s" at the same standing than "language names", that results from the wanted= insertion of ISO 639-5 entries in the Register, and does not clearly resul= t from the current RFC 4646 bis title "Tags for Identifying Languages". -(iii) I also do not think that the indication of the different considered = parts of ISO 639, with their titles, inside the list of Normative Reference= s is giving sufficient informations, because ISO 639-2 "Part 2: Alpha-3 Cod= e" explicitely contains simultaneouisly "single language code elements" and= "collective language code elements" (that are also coded under ISO 639-5). Moreover, as I previously exchanged = with Randy Presuhn, if most of the tables of ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2 and ISO 6= 39-3 (but not of ISO 639-5) are "publicly and freely available", this is no= t the case concerning the normative text of these standards that you are re= ferring to, explaining that they give sufficient explanations. -(iv) I also want to add that neither RFC 4646 bis nor ISO 639 gives any de= finition of the term "Language". So, I have been surprised that my proposit= ion to insert the "Glossary of Terms for the Standardization of Geographica= l Names" published by the United Group of experts on Geographical Names" in= side the list of "Informative References" of 4646 bis to remedy this lack w= as refused. Moreover, on thebasis of the reasons given to refuse this propo= sition, I am not sure that all sources present in "9.2 Informative referenc= es" could be conserved. 2-Returning to the question "Langage/Langue" and ISO 639 history, for which= you asked someone to verify, I can propose the following analysis: -(i) ISO 639: 1988-04-01 "Code for the representation of names of languages= / Code pour la representation des noms de langues" writes: "1 Scope and field of application This International standard provides a code for the representation of names= of languages. The symbols were devised primarily for use in terminology, l= exicography and linguistics, but they may be used in for any application re= quiring the expression of languages in coded form", and "4 Language symbols 4.1 form of language symbols The language symbols are created from the original language name, if in Lat= in spelling, or from the language name converted into Latin characters. If = a country, where the language concerned has the status of a national langua= ge, requests a certain language symbol, preference is given to this symbol = whenever possible. Two letter lower-case symbols are used" Tables 1, 2 and 3 of the standard publish a list of 136 language names, tha= t all correspond to written languages, so that there is no difficulties to = build the corresponding symbols. -(ii) ISO 639-2: 1998-10-22 "Codes for the representation of names of langu= ages--Part 2: Alpha-3 code/ Codes pour la representation des noms des langu= es--Partie 2: Code alpha-3" writes: "1 Scope This part of ISO 639 provides two sets of three-letter alphabetic codes for= the representation of names of languages, one for terminology applications= and the other for bibliographic applications. The code sets are the same e= xcept for twenty-five languages that have variant language codes because of= the criteria used for formulating them (see 4.1). The language codes were devised originally for use by libraries= , information services, and publishers to indicate language in the exchange= of information, esdpecially in computerized systems.These codes have been = widely used iun the library communirty and may be adopted for any applicati= on requiring the expression of language in coded form by terminologists and= lexicographers. Tha alpha-2 code set was devised for practical use for mos= t of the major languages in the world that are most frequently represented = in the standard body of the world's litterature. Additional language codes = are created when it becomes apparent thjat a significant body of litteratur= e in a particular language exists. Languages designed exclusively for machi= nes use, such as computer programming languages, are not included in this c= ode" Tables 1, 2, 3 and 4 of this standard publish a list of 430 language names. = The title of ISO 639 has been slightly modified (Code for.... becomes Codes= for...), but the choice of the french term"langue" and not "langage" as e= quivalent for the english term "language", has not been modified. This choi= ce has also a (partial) justification by the fact that " Languages designed= exclusively for machine use, such as computer programming languages" are c= ertainly "langages" and certainly not "langues" in french; so this choice i= s certainly all but hazardous, it is clearly well-founded and motivated. That the scope of ISO 639-2 does not include "Sign languages" seems clear f= rom the intended applications. Anyway, none of the 430 ISO 639-2 published = language names is an entry of this sort. -(iii) ISO 639-1: 2002-07-15 "Codes for the representation of names of lang= uages-- Part 1: Alpha-2 code/ Codes pour la representation des noms de lang= ues--Partie 1: Code alpha-2" writes: "INTRODUCTION ISO 639 provides two languages codes, one as a two-letter code (ISO 639-1) = and another as a three-letter code (ISO 639-2) for the representation of na= mes of languages. ISO 639-1 was devised primarily for use in terminology, l= exicography and linguistics. ISDO 639-2 represents all languages contained = in ISI 639-1 and in addition any other language, as well as language groups= , as they may be coded dfor special purposes when more specificity in codei= ng is needed. The language names of ISO 639-1 are a subset of ISO 639-2; ev= ery language code element in the two-letter code has a corresponding langua= ge code element in the three-letter code, but not necessarily vice-versa." = and "1 Scope This part of ISO 639 provides a code consisting of language code elements c= omprising two-letter language identifiers for the rerpresentation of names = of languages. The language identifiers according to this part of ISO 639 we= re devised originally for use in terminology, lexicography and linguistics,= but may be a dopted for any application requiring the expression of langua= ges in two-letter coded form, especially in computerized systems. The alpha= -2 code was devised for practical use for most of the major languages of th= e world that are not only most frequently represented in the total body of = the world's litterature, but whuich also comprise a considerable volume of = specialized languages and terminologies. Additional languages identifiers a= re created when it becomes apparent that a significant body of documentatio= n written in specialized languages and tertminologies exists. Languages des= igned exclusively for machine use, such as computer-programming languages, = are not included in this code." Tables 1, 2 3 and 4 of this standard publish a list of 184 language names, = that is adding 46 new entries to the 136 language names given by ISO 639 (1= 988). There is no "Sign language" in the list of additions. So, this is perfectly in line with all previous analysis. Bien cordialement. G=E9rard LANG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:41:51 -0600 From: "Doug Ewell" Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only To: "LTRU Working Group" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed; charset=3D"utf-8"; reply-type=3Doriginal CE Whitehead wrote: > However, it is section 2.3 of the draft, "Modified Language Subtags," = > par. 3, that I was referring to: > > ". . . Language subtags corresponding to code elements that were = > identified in [ISO639-3] as representing collection codes, but not = > listed in [ISO639-5], were also assigned a Scope value of = > "collection". > > I thought a note to this effect might be added to Section I, par. 2, = > to the end of the text below: > > "[draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17] expands on [RFC4646] by adding support = > for approximately 7,500 new primary and extended language subtags = > based on [ISO639-3] and [ISO639-5] alpha-3 code elements, and seven = > new region subtags based on [ISO3166-1] exceptionally reserved code = > elements. " > > If no one else agrees, I'll drop it, but I do think we could have this = > section a tiny bit more specific. I do not agree. The normative references to both ISO 639-3 and 639-5 state= the full names of these standards, showing that 639-3 encodes individual l= anguages while 639-5 encodes "language families and groups." = Sections 2.2 and 2.3 already explain how 639-3 and 639-5 code elements are = used to form language subtags. I don't see any need to elaborate on this i= n the Introduction. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.= ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 17 06:16:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902983A6A6D; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:16:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628A63A6A4A for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:16:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.212, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J4DUWJKVmBmC for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F1C53A67EE for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23072 invoked from network); 17 Oct 2008 13:17:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.29) with ESMTP; 17 Oct 2008 13:17:02 -0000 Message-ID: <88DF7BE516EB470EAAE1612823DA370C@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD0819@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:16:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 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Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0 cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuG CgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 17 06:46:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264093A697F; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3916E3A68D0 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:46:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.630, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vs1LQGMoEAqT for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercure.insee.fr (mercure.insee.fr [81.255.68.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FD73A697F for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by mercure.insee.fr (Insee Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6CF0E1339B4; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:47:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E20779401F; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:47:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g1l2epiit+6h; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:47:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE9479401E; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:47:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.51]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:47:56 +0200 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:47:56 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD081A@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <88DF7BE516EB470EAAE1612823DA370C@DGBP7M81> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: RFC 4646 bis; IANA's Register; Languages, langage and langue Thread-Index: AckwWqcUpWfw8FTsRKKQfQ6LzQ+4rAAArhnw References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD0819@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <88DF7BE516EB470EAAE1612823DA370C@DGBP7M81> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2008 13:47:56.0386 (UTC) FILETIME=[F5B13420:01C9305E] Subject: Re: [Ltru] RFC 4646 bis; IANA's Register; Languages, langage and langue X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear Doug, = I thank you very much for your answer. As I already made clear, I have no strong objection to the insertion of sig= ned languages inside ISO 639-3 and ISO 639-5, so inside the wanted RFC 4646= bis. I only want to make clear, because this has been strongly discussed here, t= hat: -(i) the french term "langue", not "language" is adequate, from the beginni= ng and still now, as an french equivalent to the english term "language" in= the general title of ISO 639 series. -(ii) the recent extension of ISO 639 to "Sign languages", that is coherent= with the recent shift in french from "langage des signes" to "langue des s= ignes", was clearly not foreseen and is also not today covered by ISO 639-1= and ISO 639-2. = Amicalement. G=E9rard LANG -----Message d'origine----- De : Doug Ewell [mailto:doug@ewellic.org] = Envoy=E9 : vendredi 17 octobre 2008 15:17 =C0 : LTRU Working Group Cc : Lang G=E9rard Objet : Re: RFC 4646 bis; IANA's Register; Languages, langage and langue [removing ietf-languages from cc: list; it can be added back if a specific = subtag request emerges] Lang G=E9rard wrote: > -(i) The proper reason of my first message to you and some others was = > the fact that the transition for IANA's registry resulting from the = > insertion of all ISO 639-3 (and also ISO 639-5) entries inside this = > Register would increase the number of concerned "language names" from = > around 500 to around 8000. And this is not only a technical question, = > this is in fact a real change of the nature of the Register. I'm not sure I agree that increasing the number of subtags by a factor of 1= 6, in and of itself, represents a fundamental change in the nature of the R= egistry. It certainly makes it larger, if that's what you mean. > -(ii) As is also the fact to recognize "families or groups of language = > names" at the same standing than "language names", that results from = > the wanted insertion of ISO 639-5 entries in the Register, and does = > not clearly result from the current RFC 4646 bis title "Tags for = > Identifying Languages". RFC 3066 set the precedent by admitting subtags based on ISO 639-2, which i= ncludes code elements for collections such as "Algonquian languages." We d= on't introduce a new policy by utilizing ISO 639-5. On the contrary, by co= mpleting the set of collections, we are applying the same principle that we= applied by utilizing ISO 639-3 to complete the set of individual languages. > -(iii) I also do not think that the indication of the different = > considered parts of ISO 639, with their titles, inside the list of = > Normative References is giving sufficient informations, because ISO > 639-2 "Part 2: Alpha-3 Code" explicitely contains simultaneouisly = > "single language code elements" and "collective language code = > elements" (that are also coded under ISO 639-5). OK, I take back what I said about the titles of ISO 639-3 and 639-5 indicat= ing their scope, if you think the title of ISO 639-2 makes this argument in= valid. I still maintain that it is not necessary to explain *in the Introduction* when draft-4645 uses code elements from ISO 639-3 and when it= uses those from ISO 639-5. There is only one code element that occurs in = both 639-3 and 639-5, and that case is explained in the appropriate section. > Moreover, as I previously exchanged with Randy Presuhn, if most of the = > tables of ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-3 (but not of ISO 639-5) = > are "publicly and freely available", this is not the case concerning = > the normative text of these standards that you are referring to, = > explaining that they give sufficient explanations. As Randy previously exchanged with you, "publicly and freely available" = is not a requirement for RFCs. I stand corrected on this point. > -(iv) I also want to add that neither RFC 4646 bis nor ISO 639 gives = > any definition of the term "Language". So, I have been surprised that = > my proposition to insert the "Glossary of Terms for the = > Standardization of Geographical Names" published by the United Group = > of experts on Geographical Names" inside the list of "Informative = > References" of 4646 bis to remedy this lack was refused. Moreover, on = > thebasis of the reasons given to refuse this proposition, I am not = > sure that all sources present in "9.2 Informative references" could be = > conserved. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to add a sentence to draft-4646bis that provides= a working definition of "language." This would be a drop in the ocean, co= nsidering the length of the draft. I do think it would be a procedural error to insert a reference to somethin= g like UNGEGN without including text in the draft that refers to that refer= ence. Adding this reference does not provide the definition for us. This = is one reason why the request to add a reference to ISO 3166-2 was wrong: there is no text in the draft that refers to it (nor shou= ld there be). > 2-Returning to the question "Langage/Langue" and ISO 639 history, for = > which you asked someone to verify, I can propose the following > analysis: If I did ask for an extensive history of ISO 639, I sincerely apologize. > That the scope of ISO 639-2 does not include "Sign languages" seems = > clear from the intended applications. Anyway, none of the 430 ISO > 639-2 published language names is an entry of this sort. The scope of ISO 639 has expanded through the years, from written languages= to spoken and signed languages. That is a fact, regardless of the exclusi= on of sign languages from earlier and more restricted parts of 639, and reg= ardless of the etymology of the word "langue." ISO 639-1 does not include code elements for the Konkani and Hawai'ian lang= uages, and I do not think it would be fair to consider this a justification= for excluding them from parts of 639 that are intended to be more comprehe= nsive. The same goes for sign languages. It is not appropriate (IMHO) to regard the exclusion of computer programmin= g languages from ISO 639 as a precedent that should be applied to sign lang= uages. Programming languages are not intended for communicating arbitrary = linguistic content between humans. Sign languages are. Whether you like it or not, and clearly you don't, sign languages ARE withi= n the scope of RFC 4646bis, and we do not plan to remove them based on your= arguments. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.= ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ^ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 17 10:09:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A863A6936; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:09:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C243A6936 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:09:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.938, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fq+nKaySEJ4I for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s38.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s38.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.113]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E4D3A6780 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W49 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s38.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:10:04 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [168.13.127.67] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:10:04 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2008 17:10:04.0438 (UTC) FILETIME=[32931360:01C9307B] Subject: Re: [Ltru] RFC 4646 bis; IANA's Register; Languages, langage and langue X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Here you are saying that "langues" is a good choice for a translation of t= he English word "language" because it distinguishes human languages which t= he codes here are for (with the exception of the code zxx) from machine lan= guages. Fine, but I do think we want it to include "sign languages" which = I think "langue" includes though I am not a native French speaker. Thanks. From: Lang G=E9rard = Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:14:33 +0200 > The title of ISO 639 has been slightly modified (Code for.... becomes Cod= es for...), > but the choice of the french term"langue" and not "langage" as equivalen= t for the english term "language", has not been modified. > This choice has also a (partial) justification by the fact that " Languag= es designed exclusively for machine use, such as computer programming langu= ages" are certainly "langages" and certainly not "langues" in french; so th= is choice is certainly all but hazardous, it is clearly well-founded and mo= tivated. I agree so far. Here you are saying that "langues" is a good choice for a = translation of the English word "language" because it distinguishes human l= anguages which the codes here are for (with the exception of the code zxx) = from machine languages > That the scope of ISO 639-2 does not include "Sign languages" seems clear= from the intended applications. ?? > Anyway, none of the 430 ISO 639-2 published language names is an entry of= this sort. I think that as you've noted the list is growing; so I do not quite agree w= ith your point here. Best, --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 17 10:15:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 873CD3A6AA0; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:15:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531713A6781 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:15:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.804, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nnb6ODqYS-nR for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s10.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s10.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.85]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ABEC3A69B3 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W12 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s10.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:16:36 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [168.13.127.67] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:16:36 -0400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <440316.26413.qm@web58208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <440316.26413.qm@web58208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2008 17:16:36.0957 (UTC) FILETIME=[1C88B8D0:01C9307C] Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: "Doug Ewell" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:41:51 -0600 * From: "Doug Ewell" > CE Whitehead wrote: >> However, it is section 2.3 of the draft, "Modified Language Subtags," par. 3, that I was referring to: >> ". . . Language subtags corresponding to code elements that were identified in [ISO639-3] as representing collection codes, but not listed in [ISO639-5], were also assigned a Scope value of "collection". Doug, I see that ISO 639-3 is all macro-languages and individual languages (http://www.sil.org/ISO639-3/codes.asp); I guess then I just want an explanation of where language subtag elements are assigned a scope value of collection; I see no "collections" listed among the ISO 639-3 codes since 2.3 of the draft mentions this. >> I thought a note to this effect might be added to Section I, par. 2, to the end of the text below: >> "[draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17] expands on [RFC4646] by adding support for approximately 7,500 new primary and extended language subtags based on [ISO639-3] and [ISO639-5] alpha-3 code elements, and seven new region subtags based on [ISO3166-1] exceptionally reserved code elements. " >> If no one else agrees, I'll drop it, but I do think we could have this section a tiny bit more specific. Fine > I do not agree. The normative references to both ISO 639-3 and 639-5 state the full names of these standards, showing that 639-3 encodes individual languages while 639-5 encodes "language families and groups." Sections 2.2 and 2.3 already explain how 639-3 and 639-5 code elements are used to form language subtags. I don't see any need to elaborate on this in the Introduction. -- > Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 O.k. What is the exact meaning of the comments in section 2.3, par. 3? Because it is this that is confusing me actually, not the introduction. Thanks! (Sorry to ask such a dumb question) --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 17 10:38:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFEF3A6A3E; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:38:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECD93A6814 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:38:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.580, BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01WkgqNN9NGn for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA16C28C0EF for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:38:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=pSxMvveX9+znxLg1tnYm22ssA6k/8Www0XbL31JlUFlUzEJmmVljEWvPY1AKuHQ+; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.34.105] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KqtI9-0006Yg-3p for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:39:13 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c9307f$67c03780$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:40:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4dce31f9819d0e12ad1a65dadec0782b6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.34.105 Subject: Re: [Ltru] RFC 4646 bis; IANA's Register; Languages, langage and langue X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As co-chair: We're trying to wrap up a working group last call. Discussion of what may or may not be appropriate translations for the English word "language" into other languages is off-topic. Operational experience with RFC 4646 adequately demonstrates that the current use of the word "language" is sufficiently clear, and I've seen neither persuasive technical justification or any indication that there is a consensus that a change is needed in this area. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 17 20:57:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D7D3A69BB; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569213A69BB for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:57:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.092 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.092 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.506, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uvzA3cuEi3hT for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout10.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.238]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 63D2B3A6784 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8717 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2008 03:58:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.238) with ESMTP; 18 Oct 2008 03:58:29 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:58:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Cc: CE Whitehead Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Q0UgV2hpdGVoZWFkIDxjZXdjYXRoYXIgYXQgaG90bWFpbCBkb3QgY29tPiB3cm90ZToKCj4gRG91 ZywgSSBzZWUgdGhhdCBJU08gNjM5LTMgaXMgYWxsIG1hY3JvLWxhbmd1YWdlcyBhbmQgaW5kaXZp ZHVhbCAKPiBsYW5ndWFnZXMgKGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuc2lsLm9yZy9JU082MzktMy9jb2Rlcy5hc3Ap OyBJIGd1ZXNzIHRoZW4gSSBqdXN0IAo+IHdhbnQgYW4gZXhwbGFuYXRpb24gb2Ygd2hlcmUgbGFu Z3VhZ2Ugc3VidGFnIGVsZW1lbnRzIGFyZSBhc3NpZ25lZCBhIAo+IHNjb3BlIHZhbHVlIG9mIGNv bGxlY3Rpb247IEkgc2VlIG5vICJjb2xsZWN0aW9ucyIgbGlzdGVkIGFtb25nIHRoZSBJU08gCj4g NjM5LTMgY29kZXMgc2luY2UgMi4zIG9mIHRoZSBkcmFmdCBtZW50aW9ucyB0aGlzLgoKT0ssIEkg ZmluYWxseSBzZWUgd2hhdCB5b3UgYXJlIHRhbGtpbmcgYWJvdXQsIGFuZCB5b3UgYXJlIHJpZ2h0 IC0tIHRoZXJlIAphcmUgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgZXhjZXB0aW9uYWwgY2FzZXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgdGV4 dCBkb2Vzbid0IGV4cGxhaW4gdmVyeSAKd2VsbC4KCkluIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IFJlZ2lzdHJ5IHRo ZXJlIGFyZSB0d28gc3VidGFncyBpbiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyLCAnYmgnIGZvciAKQmloYXJpIGFuZCAn aGltJyBmb3IgSGltYWNoYWxpLiAgQnkgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiwgYmFzZWQgb24gdGhlaXIgdHlwZSBh bmQgCmxlbmd0aCwgdGhlc2UgY2FtZSBmcm9tIElTTyA2MzktMSBhbmQgNjM5LTIgcmVzcGVjdGl2 ZWx5LiAgVGhleSBhcmUgbm90IAplbmNvZGVkIGluIGVpdGhlciBJU08gNjM5LTMgb3IgNjM5LTUs IGJ1dCB0aGV5IGFyZSBsaXN0ZWQgb24gdGhlIElTTyAKNjM5LTMgV2ViIHNpdGUgYXMgImNvbGxl Y3RpdmUiIGNvZGVzLiAgU2VlOgoKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zaWwub3JnL2lzbzYzOS0zL2NvZGVzLmFz cD9vcmRlcj1yZWZlcmVuY2VfbmFtZSZsZXR0ZXI9YgpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnNpbC5vcmcvaXNvNjM5 LTMvY29kZXMuYXNwP29yZGVyPXJlZmVyZW5jZV9uYW1lJmxldHRlcj1oCgpJU08gNjM5LTIgZG9l cyBpbmNsdWRlIGNvZGUgZWxlbWVudHMgZm9yIGxhbmd1YWdlIGNvbGxlY3Rpb25zLCBidXQgdGhl eSAKYXJlbid0IGZvcm1hbGx5IGlkZW50aWZpZWQgd2l0aCBhIHNwZWNpYWwgcHJvcGVydHkgdGhl IHdheSB0aGV5IGFyZSBpbiAKNjM5LTMuICBJbnN0ZWFkLCA2MzktMiBoYXMgYSBndWlkZWxpbmUg KHN0YXRlZCBpbiB0aGVpciBGQVEpIHRoYXQgIlRoZSAKd29yZHMgJ2xhbmd1YWdlcycgb3IgJyhP dGhlciknIGluZGljYXRlcyB0aGF0IGEgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgY29kZSBpcyBhIApjb2xsZWN0aXZlIG9u ZS4iICBFdmlkZW50bHkgdGhpcyBuYW1pbmcgY29udmVudGlvbiB3YXMgbm90IGFwcGxpZWQgdG8g CnRoZXNlIHR3byBjb2RlIGVsZW1lbnRzLCBhbmQgcGVyaGFwcyB0aGF0IGV4cGxhaW5zIHdoeSBJ U08gNjM5LTUgZmFpbGVkIAp0byBwaWNrIHRoZW0gdXAgYXMgY29sbGVjdGlvbnMuCgpTbyB0byBz dW1tYXJpemUsIHRoZSBsYXN0IHNlbnRlbmNlIGluIGRyYWZ0LTQ2NDViaXMtMDYsIFNlY3Rpb24g Mi4zLCAKcGFyYWdyYXBoIDQsIGlzIGluY29ycmVjdCBvciBhdCBsZWFzdCBtaXNsZWFkaW5nOgoK Ikxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3MgY29ycmVzcG9uZGluZyB0byBjb2RlIGVsZW1lbnRzIHRoYXQgd2Vy ZSBpZGVudGlmaWVkIGluIApbSVNPNjM54oCRM10gYXMgcmVwcmVzZW50aW5nIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24g Y29kZXMsIGJ1dCBub3QgbGlzdGVkIGluIApbSVNPNjM54oCRNV0sIHdlcmUgYWxzbyBhc3NpZ25l ZCBhIFNjb3BlIHZhbHVlIG9mICdjb2xsZWN0aW9uJy4iCgpUaGVzZSBsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWdz IGFyZSBpbmRlZWQgaWRlbnRpZmllZCAqb24gdGhlIElTTyA2MzktMyBXZWIgc2l0ZSogCmFzIHJl cHJlc2VudGluZyBjb2xsZWN0aW9uIGNvZGVzLCBidXQgSSBzdXBwb3NlIGl0J3Mgbm90IHJlYWxs eSBjb3JyZWN0IAp0byBzYXkgdGhleSBhcmUgc28gaWRlbnRpZmllZCAqaW4gSVNPIDYzOS0zKi4g IFRoZXkgYXJlIGFzc2lnbmVkIGluIAo2MzktMiwgYnV0IG5vdCBpZGVudGlmaWVkIHRoZXJlIGFz IGNvbGxlY3Rpb25zLCBlaXRoZXIgZm9ybWFsbHkgb3IgCmluZm9ybWFsbHkuICBUaGV5IGFyZSBh bHNvIG5vdCBlbmNvZGVkIGluIElTTyA2MzktNS4KCkkgcHJvcG9zZSB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHJl cGxhY2VtZW50IGZvciB0aGlzIHNlbnRlbmNlOgoKIkV4aXN0aW5nIGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3Mg Y29ycmVzcG9uZGluZyB0byBjb2RlIGVsZW1lbnRzIHRoYXQgd2VyZSAKaWRlbnRpZmllZCBieSB0 aGUgW0lTTzYzOeKAkTNdIFJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiBBdXRob3JpdHkgYXMgcmVwcmVzZW50aW5nIApj b2xsZWN0aW9uIGNvZGVzLCBidXQgbm90IGFzc2lnbmVkIGluIGVpdGhlciBbSVNPNjM54oCRM10g b3IgW0lTTzYzOeKAkTVdLCAKd2VyZSBhbHNvIGFzc2lnbmVkIGEgU2NvcGUgdmFsdWUgb2YgJ2Nv bGxlY3Rpb24nLiIKCkRvZXMgdGhhdCBzb2x2ZSB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbT8KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwg ICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRw Oi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRy dS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v aWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 17 22:03:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B9B3A67E5; 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Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:04:26 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:04:26 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:04:25 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only Thread-Index: Ackw1c5qKDYsRvE8RVqqEjfsQZlUaQACK5eg Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 8:58 PM > In the current Registry there are two subtags in particular, 'bh' for > Bihari and 'him' for Himachali. By definition, based on their type and > length, these came from ISO 639-1 and 639-2 respectively. They are not > encoded in either ISO 639-3 or 639-5, but they are listed on the ISO > 639-3 Web site as "collective" codes... > ISO 639-2 does include code elements for language collections, but they > aren't formally identified with a special property the way they are in > 639-3. Instead, 639-2 has a guideline (stated in their FAQ) that "The > words 'languages' or '(Other)' indicates that a language code is a > collective one." Evidently this naming convention was not applied to > these two code elements, and perhaps that explains why ISO 639-5 failed > to pick them up as collections. This is one of the cases that I asked the JAC to review before ISO 639-3 was published but that they did not review in time. It still hasn't been reviewed. If it is problematic for RFC 4645bis, we should be able to request some expedited action to resolve it. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 17 23:22:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC313A6A3E; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:22:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51893A6A2E for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:22:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nZLYhJLA+5tN for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE5CA3A6A12 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kr5ED-0003F8-Ub; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:23:58 -0400 Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:23:57 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20081018062357.GG3548@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: CE Whitehead , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RG91ZyBFd2VsbCBzY3JpcHNpdDoKCj4gIkV4aXN0aW5nIGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3MgY29ycmVz cG9uZGluZyB0byBjb2RlIGVsZW1lbnRzIHRoYXQgd2VyZSAKPiBpZGVudGlmaWVkIGJ5IHRoZSBb SVNPNjM54oCRM10gUmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eSBhcyByZXByZXNlbnRpbmcgCj4gY29s bGVjdGlvbiBjb2RlcywgYnV0IG5vdCBhc3NpZ25lZCBpbiBlaXRoZXIgW0lTTzYzOeKAkTNdIG9y IFtJU082MznigJE1XSwgCj4gd2VyZSBhbHNvIGFzc2lnbmVkIGEgU2NvcGUgdmFsdWUgb2YgJ2Nv bGxlY3Rpb24nLiIKPiAKPiBEb2VzIHRoYXQgc29sdmUgdGhlIHByb2JsZW0/CgpZZXMuCgotLSAK Sm9obiBDb3dhbiAgIGNvd2FuQGNjaWwub3JnCiAgICAiTXIuIExhbmUsIGlmIHlvdSBldmVyIHdp c2ggYW55dGhpbmcgdGhhdCBJIGNhbiBkbywgYWxsIHlvdSB3aWxsIGhhdmUKICAgICAgICB0byBk byB3aWxsIGJlIHRvIHNlbmQgbWUgYSB0ZWxlZ3JhbSBhc2tpbmcgYW5kIGl0IHdpbGwgYmUgZG9u ZS4iCiAgICAiTXIuIEhlYXJzdCwgaWYgeW91IGV2ZXIgZ2V0IGEgdGVsZWdyYW0gZnJvbSBtZSBh c2tpbmcgeW91IHRvIGRvCiAgICAgICAgYW55dGhpbmcsIHlvdSBjYW4gcHV0IHRoZSB0ZWxlZ3Jh bSBkb3duIGFzIGEgZm9yZ2VyeS4iCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Oct 18 07:55:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23723A683A; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:55:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007943A683A for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:55:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.703, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m7fvv0ITLM0f for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s34.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s34.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.109]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E103A679F for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W28 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s34.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:56:39 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [168.13.127.67] From: CE Whitehead To: , Doug Ewell Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:56:39 -0400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Oct 2008 14:56:39.0992 (UTC) FILETIME=[B9F74B80:01C93131] Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a1wvWEJPduKs for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout06.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout06-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D92CA3A695C for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27872 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2008 17:48:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout06-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.227) with ESMTP; 18 Oct 2008 17:48:45 -0000 Message-ID: <1BFA1C7DB8B24792A9F93E78870D5077@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:48:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt --Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDxwZXRlcmNvbiBhdCBtaWNyb3NvZnQgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IFRoaXMgaXMgb25lIG9mIHRoZSBjYXNlcyB0aGF0IEkgYXNrZWQgdGhlIEpBQyB0byByZXZpZXcg YmVmb3JlIElTTyAKPiA2MzktMyB3YXMgcHVibGlzaGVkIGJ1dCB0aGF0IHRoZXkgZGlkIG5vdCBy ZXZpZXcgaW4gdGltZS4gSXQgc3RpbGwgCj4gaGFzbid0IGJlZW4gcmV2aWV3ZWQuIElmIGl0IGlz IHByb2JsZW1hdGljIGZvciBSRkMgNDY0NWJpcywgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIAo+IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gcmVx dWVzdCBzb21lIGV4cGVkaXRlZCBhY3Rpb24gdG8gcmVzb2x2ZSBpdC4KCkRlcGVuZHMgb24gaG93 IHlvdSBkZWZpbmUgInByb2JsZW1hdGljLiIgIEkgZGlkIGhhdmUgdG8gbWFrZSBhIHNwZWNpYWwg CmNhc2UgdG8gaGFuZGxlIGl0LCBiZXlvbmQgdGhlIGF1dG9tYXRlZCBtZXJnaW5nIG9mIHRoZSA2 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bHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgoKCl9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9s dHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Oct 18 11:06:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DACF3A6818; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:06:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B903A6818 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:06:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C7RVna5XdNPi for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout04-02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout04-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.196]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C30083A6783 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 32150 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2008 18:07:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout04-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.199) with ESMTP; 18 Oct 2008 18:07:24 -0000 Message-ID: <0FB4CFF48A4F46D1AB8A935B36B7E90E@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:07:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Q0UgV2hpdGVoZWFkIDxjZXdjYXRoYXIgYXQgaG90bWFpbCBkb3QgY29tPiB3cm90ZToKCj4+IEkg cHJvcG9zZSB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHJlcGxhY2VtZW50IGZvciB0aGlzIHNlbnRlbmNlOgo+Pgo+ PiAiRXhpc3RpbmcgbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugc3VidGFncyBjb3JyZXNwb25kaW5nIHRvIGNvZGUgZWxlbWVu dHMgdGhhdCB3ZXJlIAo+PiBpZGVudGlmaWVkIGJ5IHRoZSBbSVNPNjM54oCRM10gUmVnaXN0cmF0 aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eSBhcyByZXByZXNlbnRpbmcgCj4+IGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gY29kZXMsIGJ1dCBu b3QgYXNzaWduZWQgaW4gZWl0aGVyIFtJU082MznigJEzXSBvciAKPj4gW0lTTzYzOeKAkTVdLAo+ PiB3ZXJlIGFsc28gYXNzaWduZWQgYSBTY29wZSB2YWx1ZSBvZiAnY29sbGVjdGlvbicuIgo+Cj4g SXQgcmVhZHMgby5rLiAgTXkgdHJ5Ogo+Cj4gIkV4aXN0aW5nIGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZ3Mgd2hv 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core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8873A6828; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:32:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695963A6828 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.21 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.300, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JUsR+4xxN5zP for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.228.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8683A680F for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BCE72BC69 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:33:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6H5GBxp7utz4 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:33:30 +0900 (JST) Received: by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 33) id 6F8782BC63; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:33:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from 62.218.228.5 (SquirrelMail authenticated user fsasaki) by webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:33:30 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <1368.62.218.228.5.1224430410.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:33:30 +0900 (JST) From: "Felix Sasaki" To: "LTRU Working Group" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.9a MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Subject: [Ltru] Language Tag Analyzer X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: fsasaki@w3.org List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have updated a language tag analyzer I had written a while ago, to the ANBF and the registry in the last call drafts. See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/ The tool should help to educate about the form of language tags and various constraints. Currently only two are tested: validity and repitition of singleton in extensions. More are about to come at some point in time. Feedback & suggestions are very welcome. Also: if somebody wants to localize the (error) messages in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/02/messages.xml into further languages: you are very welcome :) Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 20 17:46:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1073A6848; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB7D3A659A for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:46:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JNRoe4OmcMcC for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from IE1EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (outbound-dub.frontbridge.com [213.199.154.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53EC3A6848 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail187-dub-R.bigfish.com (10.5.252.3) by IE1EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (10.5.252.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:47:48 +0000 Received: from mail187-dub (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail187-dub-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D346167026A; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:47:48 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VS-38(zz936fO3117K9371Pzzzz1033ILz2dh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail187-dub (MessageSwitch) id 1224550067941927_23650; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:47:47 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (mail8.fw-sd.sony.com [160.33.66.75]) by mail187-dub.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1C7BE8054; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:47:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-sd.sony.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m9L0lkqS018173; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:47:46 GMT Received: from ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com (ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com [43.130.141.78]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m9L0lkKd003946; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:47:46 GMT Received: from USSDIXMSG20.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.72]) by ussdixtran21.spe.sony.com ([43.130.141.78]) with mapi; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:47:46 -0700 From: "Broome, Karen" To: "fsasaki@w3.org" , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:45:56 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Language Tag Analyzer Thread-Index: AckyABBTxnVgx54MThe5+o8hXRqWiwBFlDHa Message-ID: References: <1368.62.218.228.5.1224430410.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <1368.62.218.228.5.1224430410.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SEL-encryption-scan: scanned Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language Tag Analyzer X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Felix, Should it have thrown an error on "zh-cmn-TW"? (It didn't.) Regards, Karen Broome ________________________________________ From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Felix Sasaki [fsasaki@w3.org] Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 8:33 AM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Language Tag Analyzer I have updated a language tag analyzer I had written a while ago, to the ANBF and the registry in the last call drafts. See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/ The tool should help to educate about the form of language tags and various constraints. Currently only two are tested: validity and repitition of singleton in extensions. More are about to come at some point in time. Feedback & suggestions are very welcome. Also: if somebody wants to localize the (error) messages in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/02/messages.xml into further languages: you are very welcome :) Felix _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 20 17:50:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA103A6A7B; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:50:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B59B3A690F for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:50:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G2tbOwFl6uOW for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897743A659A for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ks5Sp-0002ES-Uz; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:51:12 -0400 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:51:11 -0400 To: "Broome, Karen" Message-ID: <20081021005111.GH9698@mercury.ccil.org> References: <1368.62.218.228.5.1224430410.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language Tag Analyzer X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Broome, Karen scripsit: > Should it have thrown an error on "zh-cmn-TW"? (It didn't.) Why would it? Under 3066bis that will be a valid tag. -- The Unicode Standard does not encode John Cowan idiosyncratic, personal, novel, or private http://www.ccil.org/~cowan use characters, nor does it encode logos or graphics. cowan@ccil.org _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 20 21:02:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339563A68A2; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:02:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85CE3A6801 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:02:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j4gXydTVPRcw for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C475C3A63EC for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:02:25 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,455,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="125059301" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 21 Oct 2008 04:03:36 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m9L43XDB032659; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 04:03:33 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:03:33 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , "Broome, Karen" Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:03:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Language Tag Analyzer Thread-Index: AckzFx+xNQL5kT0KSHGZg5jp7t+38gAGs/Tg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F5D2A04@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <1368.62.218.228.5.1224430410.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> <20081021005111.GH9698@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081021005111.GH9698@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language Tag Analyzer X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Recte: 4646bis. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of John Cowan > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 5:51 PM > To: Broome, Karen > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language Tag Analyzer > > Broome, Karen scripsit: > > > Should it have thrown an error on "zh-cmn-TW"? (It didn't.) > > Why would it? Under 3066bis that will be a valid tag. > > -- > The Unicode Standard does not encode John Cowan > idiosyncratic, personal, novel, or private > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > use characters, nor does it encode logos > or graphics. cowan@ccil.org > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 20 22:44:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC6B3A698A; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:44:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7468D3A698A for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.56 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qjVc8F77efjq for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.228.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F08A3A6869 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909D12BBED for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:45:13 +0900 (JST) Received: from toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zyynOOo-jv3M for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:45:13 +0900 (JST) Received: by toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 33) id 7835B2BBE9; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:45:13 +0900 (JST) Received: from 83.197.2.175 (SquirrelMail authenticated user fsasaki) by webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp with HTTP; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:45:13 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <1333.83.197.2.175.1224567913.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F5D2A04@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <1368.62.218.228.5.1224430410.squirrel@webmail.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> <20081021005111.GH9698@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA014F5D2A04@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:45:13 +0900 (JST) From: "Felix Sasaki" To: "ltru@ietf.org" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.9a MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language Tag Analyzer X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: fsasaki@w3.org List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Recte: 4646bis. Exactly. The underlying ABNF and the registry are taken from the last call drafts. Felix > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of John Cowan >> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 5:51 PM >> To: Broome, Karen >> Cc: ltru@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Language Tag Analyzer >> >> Broome, Karen scripsit: >> >> > Should it have thrown an error on "zh-cmn-TW"? (It didn't.) >> >> Why would it? Under 3066bis that will be a valid tag. >> >> -- >> The Unicode Standard does not encode John Cowan >> idiosyncratic, personal, novel, or private >> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan >> use characters, nor does it encode logos >> or graphics. cowan@ccil.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 21 06:16:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C62C28C0FD; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:16:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB05128C0FD for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:16:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.492, BAYES_20=-0.74, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NHft7fg9koBO for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AD75B3A6B6C for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8334 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2008 13:10:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.35) with ESMTP; 21 Oct 2008 13:10:37 -0000 Message-ID: <697D1BAAE2A1410795DAF5DE8CD19304@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <28F71D4CCDB5423F93623B8086432DCD@DGBP7M81> <0EB15FDD37D04EEAB141B21DC315FA95@streamserve.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:10:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org S2VudCBLYXJsc3NvbiA8a2VudCBkb3Qga2FybHNzb24xNCBhdCBjb21oZW0gZG90IHNlPiB3cm90 ZSBvZmYtbGlzdDoKCj4gSSBoYXZlbid0IGtlcHQgdXAgd2l0aCBhbGwgdGhlIGRldGFpbHMgaGVy ZSwgYnV0IHNob3VsZCBub3QKPgo+IERlc2NyaXB0aW9uOiBDcmVvbGVzIGFuZCBwaWRnaW5zLCBQ b3J0dWd1ZXNlLWJhc2VkCj4KPiBpbnN0ZWFkIGJlCj4KPiBEZXNjcmlwdGlvbjogUG9ydHVndWVz ZS1iYXNlZCBjcmVvbGVzIGFuZCBwaWRnaW5zCj4KPiA/IEFuZCBzaW1pbGFybHkgZm9yIGEgZmV3 IG90aGVyIGxhbmd1YWdlIGFuZCByZWdpb24gRGVzY3JpcHRpb25zLgo+Cj4gV2FzIHRoZXJlIHNv bWUga2luZCBvZiBleGNlcHRpb24gdG8gdGhlICJ1c2Ugbm9uLWludmVydGVkIHJhdGhlciB0aGFu IAo+IGludmVydGVkIiBydWxlIChvciBzb3J0LW9mLXJ1bGUgZm9yIGZvciB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkg dXBkYXRlKSBmb3IgCj4gRGVzY3JpcHRpb25zPwoKVGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gZXhjZXB0aW9uOyB0aGlz IGlzIHNpbXBseSBteSBtaXN0YWtlLiAgU2luY2UgSVNPIDYzOS0zIApzZXBhcmF0ZXMgdGhlIGlu dmVydGVkIGFuZCBub24taW52ZXJ0ZWQgbmFtZXMsIG1ha2luZyBpdCBlYXN5IGZvciBtZSB0byAK YWRkIG9ubHkgdGhlIGludmVydGVkIG5hbWVzIHRvIHRoZSA0NjQ1YmlzIFJlZ2lzdHJ5LCBJIG5l Z2xlY3RlZCB0byBkbyAKdGhlIG1hbnVhbCB1bi1pbnZlcnNpb24gb24gdGhlIG5vbi02MzktMyBu YW1lcy4KClRoYW5rcyB0byBLZW50IGZvciBjYXRjaGluZyB0aGlzLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAg KiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6 Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1 LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9p ZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 21 11:47:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A9E3A6B60; 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Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:48:47 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <28F71D4CCDB5423F93623B8086432DCD@DGBP7M81><0EB15FDD37D04EEAB141B21DC315FA95@streamserve.com> <697D1BAAE2A1410795DAF5DE8CD19304@DGBP7M81> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:48:36 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <697D1BAAE2A1410795DAF5DE8CD19304@DGBP7M81> Thread-Index: Ackzf4o+2AE434JjRgucspOL/+mqYgALHH3Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.80.178 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KsMHe-0001xT-81. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1KsMHe-0001xT-81 5ab0551ad1fca60bad17849091adc775 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSBmb3VuZCB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIERlc2NyaXB0aW9ucyB3aXRoIGNvbW1hOgoKCkludmVyc2lv bnMgKHNob3VsZCBiZSB1bmludmVydGVkKToKCkRlc2NyaXB0aW9uOiBDcmVvbGVzIGFuZCBwaWRn aW5zLCBFbmdsaXNoLWJhc2VkCkRlc2NyaXB0aW9uOiBDcmVvbGVzIGFuZCBwaWRnaW5zLCBGcmVu Y2gtYmFzZWQKRGVzY3JpcHRpb246IENyZW9sZXMgYW5kIHBpZGdpbnMsIFBvcnR1Z3Vlc2UtYmFz ZWQKRGVzY3JpcHRpb246IENvbmdvLCBUaGUgRGVtb2NyYXRpYyBSZXB1YmxpYyBvZiB0aGUKRGVz Y3JpcHRpb246IE1pY3JvbmVzaWEsIEZlZGVyYXRlZCBTdGF0ZXMgb2YKRGVzY3JpcHRpb246IEly 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X19fX19fX19fXwo+IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj4gTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwo+IGh0dHBzOi8v d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo+IAoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRm Lm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 21 21:05:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C303A6853; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:05:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E5B3A6853 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:05:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.451, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FKvVgsAcWJ6w for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C15413A6807 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11449 invoked from network); 22 Oct 2008 04:06:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth17.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.29) with ESMTP; 22 Oct 2008 04:06:22 -0000 Message-ID: <52EFB421043F4D688DD638220345660C@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <28F71D4CCDB5423F93623B8086432DCD@DGBP7M81><0EB15FDD37D04EEAB141B21DC315FA95@streamserve.com> <697D1BAAE2A1410795DAF5DE8CD19304@DGBP7M81> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:06:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org S2VudCBLYXJsc3NvbiA8a2VudCBkb3Qga2FybHNzb24xNCBhdCBjb21oZW0gZG90IHNlPiB3cm90 ZToKCj4gSSBmb3VuZCB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIERlc2NyaXB0aW9ucyB3aXRoIGNvbW1hOgo+Cj4g SW52ZXJzaW9ucyAoc2hvdWxkIGJlIHVuaW52ZXJ0ZWQpOgoKSSBpbmRlcGVuZGVudGx5IGNhbWUg dXAgd2l0aCB0aGUgc2FtZSBsaXN0IGFzIEtlbnQsIGFuZCAodW5zdXJwcmlzaW5nbHkpIAphZ3Jl ZSB3aXRoIGl0LgoKPiAoQXQgbGVhc3QgdHdvIG9mIHRob3NlIGNvdWxkIHVzZSBhIHNob3J0ZXIs IG1vcmUgY29tbW9ubHkgdXNlZCwgCj4gbmFtZS4uLikKClRoYXQncyBub3QgbXkgcm9sZSBhcyBl 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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97993A67F5 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:14:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5q1dX1xgTHr7 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35A33A67ED for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KsV7h-0001Ce-3a; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:15:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:15:05 -0400 To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <20081022041504.GR9698@mercury.ccil.org> References: <697D1BAAE2A1410795DAF5DE8CD19304@DGBP7M81> <52EFB421043F4D688DD638220345660C@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <52EFB421043F4D688DD638220345660C@DGBP7M81> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > >Description: Cuneiform, Sumero-Akkadian <--- but compare > >Description: Cuneiform Luwian > > The first is a script; the second is a language. I can't make any > assumption as to whether the usage of "Cuneiform" is parallel in these > two names. I think it would be maximally consistent to uninvert > "Cuneiform, Sumero-Akkadian" and leave "Cuneiform Luwian" alone. That's the Right Thing. The former is the style of cuneiform characters used to write Sumerian and Akkadian; the latter is the type of Luwian written with cuneiform characters. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Most languages are dramatically underdescribed, and at least one is dramatically overdescribed. Still other languages are simultaneously overdescribed and underdescribed. Welsh pertains to the third category. --Alan King _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 21 23:32:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292A93A687A; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:32:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D123A6835 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:32:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PIuOonNKhnyP for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2A63A67AD for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:33:23 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:33:22 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Peter Constable , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:33:19 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only Thread-Index: Ackw1c5qKDYsRvE8RVqqEjfsQZlUaQACK5egAMnjp/A= Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt -- Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Constable Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 10:04 PM >> In the current Registry there are two subtags in particular, 'bh' for >> Bihari and 'him' for Himachali... > This is one of the cases that I asked the JAC to review before ISO 639-3 > was published but that they did not review in time. It still hasn't been > reviewed... Let me give a little more precise detail. In early 2004, I made a list (if I've counted correctly) 93 issues involving 107 different entries in 639-2. I got comments from one JAC participant fairly soon, but then didn't get JAC as a commenting and bringing closure to issues. Over the next couple of years, there were a few occasions in which I needed an immediate decision on one of the issues, and got the JAC to come to consensus, but in terms of the whole I hadn't succeeded in getting closure. Then, in October 2006, as 639-3 was in its last ballot, the window of opportunity for the JAC to act before 639-3 was published was running out. Three of the 93 items had been explicitly resolved, with 90 left to close. So, I took a different approach. First, I identified 46 that really were not controversial, and considered them to have been tacitly accepted by the absence of any concerns raised. (Most were decisions to deem items to be macrolanguages -- alternatives would have been collection or to narrow denotation to one specific variety.) There were another 6 that really didn't need to be decided before 639-3 was published (e.g. whether mo/mol means the same as ro/ron/rum or not). That left 38 items I wanted decisions on. I broke those into chunks of similar items and started getting the JAC to review one batch at a time. Within a month, I had closure on 19 of those items -- and if you look at the 639-2 change history, you'll see a flurry of changes between 2006-10-25 and 2006-11-22 (http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_changes.php). Now, when I organized those batches of similar items, I chose to leave out any languages of India, having in mind to discuss those last, as they included some of the most complicated cases and so were most likely to end up getting bogged down in inaction. I ended up with 12 issues on which I never got a JAC decision (but would have wanted to) before 639-3 went live: Language ID Proposed change Bihari bh/bih collection Himachali him collection Rajasthani raj macrolanguage Konkani kok macrolanguage Malay ms/msa/may macrolanguage Marwari mwr macrolanguage Swahili sw/swa macrolanguage Dogri doi macrolanguage Lahnda lah macrolanguage Panjabi pa/pan clarify denotation Tibetan bo/bod/tib clarify denotation After 639-3 was published, the urgency (and in some cases even the opportunity) for discussing these and taking actions went away. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 21 23:49:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB6B3A699D; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:49:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B51E3A699D for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:49:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6boU-7CvmyRk for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBDBF3A67ED for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:49:56 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:49:55 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:49:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt --Editorial Comments Only Thread-Index: AckxScqLWNS3yKFLSL6cvRCmXE7tEwCyDTzA Message-ID: References: <1BFA1C7DB8B24792A9F93E78870D5077@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <1BFA1C7DB8B24792A9F93E78870D5077@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt --Editorial Comments Only X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 10:49 AM > If you're thinking about knocking on the JAC's door, you might inquire > when the 639-5 site is going to be available, so we can find out about > updates and find out whether they've fixed problems like this one and > 'car'. I heard that site was supposed to be ready by September. It's more of an LOC issue than a JAC issue. LOC is working on it, and is aware that it is overdue. They've been delayed for reasons not entirely under their control. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 27 06:20:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157FE3A6ABC; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:20:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833C73A6ABA for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:20:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9vu+0ft6y7xV for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.221]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 140533A6AB4 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18524 invoked from network); 27 Oct 2008 13:20:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.221) with ESMTP; 27 Oct 2008 13:20:03 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:20:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org T24gRnJpLCAxMCBPY3QgMjAwOCAxODowODoyOCArMDkwMCwgTWFydGluIER1ZXJzdCA8ZHVlcnN0 IGF0IGl0IGRvdCAKYW95YW1hIGRvdCBhYyBkb3QganA+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBBcyByZXF1ZXN0ZWQg YnkgRG91ZywgSSBoZXJld2l0aCBkZWNsYXJlIGEgV0cgTGFzdCBDYWxsIG9uIAo+IGRyYWZ0LWll dGYtbHRydS00NjQ1YmlzLTA2LnR4dC4gSW4gbXkgcmVjb2xsZWN0aW9uLCB0aGlzIGlzIHRoZSBm aXJzdCAKPiBXRyBMYXN0IENhbGwgb24gdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCwgYW5kIGluIGFjY29yZGFuY2Ug d2l0aCBJRVRGIHByYWN0aWNlLCAKPiBpdCB3aWxsIHRoZXJlZm9yZSBsYXN0IGZvciAyIHdlZWtz LiBUaGUgZGVhZGxpbmUgZm9yIGNvbW1lbnRzIGlzIAo+IFN1bmRheSwgT2N0b2JlciAyNiwgMjQ6 MDAgSGF3YWknaWFuIHRpbWUuCgpJIG5vdGUgdGhhdCB0aGlzIGRlYWRsaW5lIGhhcyBwYXNzZWQs IGFib3V0IDQgaG91cnMgYWdvLCBhbmQgdGhhdCB0aGUgCmRlYWRsaW5lIGZvciBXRyBMYXN0IENh bGwgb24gZHJhZnQtNDY0NmJpcy0xNyBwYXNzZWQgMjkgZGF5cyBhZ28uCgpBIGRpZmYgYmV0d2Vl biBkcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzLTA2LCB3aGljaCB3YXMgdW5kZXIgTGFzdCBDYWxsIHJldmlldywgYW5k IApkcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzLTA3LCB3aGljaCBzaG91bGQgcmVmbGVjdCBhbGwgdGhlIGFjY2VwdGVk IFdHTEMgY29tbWVudHMsIAppcyBhdmFpbGFibGUgYXQgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBob3JyaWJsZSBV Ukw6CgpodHRwOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvdG9vbHMvcmZjZGlmZi9yZmNkaWZmLnB5aHQ/ZGlm ZnR5cGU9LS1od2RpZmYmdXJsMT1odHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9k cmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtNDY0NWJpcy0wNi50eHQmdXJsMj1odHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3Jn L2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtbHRydS00NjQ1YmlzLTA3LnR4dAoKT3IgeW91IGNhbiBzaW1wbHkgdmlzaXQg aHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZy9yZmM0NjQ1YmlzLmh0bWwgYW5kIGxvb2sgCmZvciB0aGUg IkRpZmZlcmVuY2UiIGxpbmsuCgpJIGFwcHJlY2lhdGUgdGhlIGNvbW1lbnRzIHJlY2VpdmVkIGR1 cmluZyBMYXN0IENhbGwgYW5kIEkgdGhpbmsgV0cgCm1lbWJlcnMgd2lsbCBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IGRy YWZ0LTQ2NDViaXMtMDcgcmVmbGVjdHMgdGhlbSBpbiBhIGZhaXIgd2F5LgoKSSdtIGhvcGVmdWwg dGhhdCB3ZSB3aWxsIGJlIGFibGUgdG8gcHJlc2VudCB0aGVzZSB0d28gZHJhZnRzIGZvciBJRVRG IApMYXN0IENhbGwgc2hvcnRseSwgd2l0aCBhIG1pbmltdW0gb2YgZnVydGhlciBkZWxheXMgb2Nj YXNpb25lZCBieSAibW9yZSAKaW1wb3J0YW50IiBtYXR0ZXJzLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAg VGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93 d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNo YXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRm LWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 31 03:21:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1283A6857; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 03:21:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC093A6857 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 03:21:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.924 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.924 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x7pfu2PecPdf for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 03:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480133A67E1 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 03:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m9VALRlB002152 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:21:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 1372_ad72844a_a735_11dd_8e97_0014221f2a2d; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:21:27 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:42490) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:13:56 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081030135146.06da6ab0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:21:01 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] WG Last Calls completed X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear LTRU WG members, Just for the record, this is an official announcement that the WG last calls for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis and draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis have completed, in the judgement of the chairs successfully. The editors are now working on a concerted re-publishing of their drafts along the lines discussed already on this mailing list. We will then give everybody a very short window to check whether there haven't been any hickups when integrating the last call comments, and then we should be able to send the two documents to our ADs and to the IESG. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 31 08:04:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 847893A6BFD; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:04:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426EE3A6BFD for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:04:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oe7ktYdBm+FE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FF53A6A8E for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:04:30 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,523,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="153278015" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 31 Oct 2008 15:04:29 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m9VF4R7Z026470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:04:29 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:04:27 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Martin Duerst , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:04:26 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] WG Last Calls completed Thread-Index: Ack7QnbNXs32LedMS/emc6XeKH8/wQAJyJdQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151DDA605@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081030135146.06da6ab0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081030135146.06da6ab0@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Calls completed X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The proto-draft-18 has been posted to inter-locale. I have not yet run idnits and the other tools nor done a final proof. Doug and I are coordinating offline for submission "near simultaneously" tomorrow. The curious may see draft-18 at: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.xml With a diff: http://tinyurl.com/6eslj5 For the editors, Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Martin Duerst > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 3:21 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] WG Last Calls completed > > Dear LTRU WG members, > > Just for the record, this is an official announcement that the WG > last calls for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis and draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis > have completed, in the judgement of the chairs successfully. > > The editors are now working on a concerted re-publishing of their > drafts along the lines discussed already on this mailing list. > > We will then give everybody a very short window to check whether > there haven't been any hickups when integrating the last call > comments, and then we should be able to send the two documents > to our ADs and to the IESG. > > Regards, Martin. > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp > mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 31 10:32:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0453A6BEF; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:32:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8324D3A6917 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:32:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9j9RDDOwFmoD for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A913A6C0E for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:32:55 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=biKmDmmHZ0wnFwU4z+2N5xgFQ/diBcDCGAkTBkf7Eda+s//pScp9+t0ccF4AdvI0; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.84.182] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kvxrg-0001RW-6U for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:32:52 -0400 Message-ID: <002401c93b7e$bad4dc00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081030135146.06da6ab0@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151DDA605@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:33:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4e2fc8ae9255f2ee7fcb7793c83a3b5fc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.84.182 Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Calls completed X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Martin Duerst" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] WG Last Calls completed ... > Doug and I are coordinating offline for submission "near simultaneously" tomorrow. ... Keep in mind http://www.ietf.org/meetings/73/73-cutoff_dates.html looms near. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 31 19:17:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1999B3A6937; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:17:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E5D3A6A0C for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:17:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wBm9oZJkqUYs for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A5363A689D for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:17:18 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,525,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="130880661" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Nov 2008 02:17:09 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA12H8HH004674 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 1 Nov 2008 02:17:09 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:17:08 -0700 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:16:15 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:17:06 -0700 Thread-Topic: draft-18 is submitted... Thread-Index: Ack7x++noVn0ZCj0RoeI6QK2ipi1SQ== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151DDAF95@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Doug Ewell Subject: [Ltru] draft-18 is submitted... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org ... a bit on the early side. Diffs and links and such remain the same from my previous email. For the editors, Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 31 19:20:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5857E3A6937; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:20:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695C63A6937 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:20:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U8KIc92duroQ for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 88F473A6805 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15447 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2008 02:20:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.33) with ESMTP; 01 Nov 2008 02:20:41 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "Phillips, Addison" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151DDAF95@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:20:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-18 is submitted... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dated October 31 or November 1? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "LTRU Working Group" Cc: "Doug Ewell" Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 20:17 Subject: draft-18 is submitted... > ... a bit on the early side. Diffs and links and such remain the same > from my previous email. > > For the editors, > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 31 19:30:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608843A6A5C; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:30:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@ietf.org Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 4B55C3A6937; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:30:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20081101023001.4B55C3A6937@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt Pages : 88 Date : 2008-10-31 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-10-31191605.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart--